The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters - August 21, 2025


Should Bonnie Blue be Banned？ ｜ Interview with Andrew Gold


Episode Stats

Length

15 minutes

Words per Minute

211.97302

Word Count

3,280

Sentence Count

297

Misogynist Sentences

52

Hate Speech Sentences

15


Summary

This week, I sat down with Jon Ronson to talk about his new book, "Bonnie Blue" and why he thinks she's a psychopath. We talk about her rise to fame, why she should have a facelift, and what he's learned from interviewing her.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 You're not a journalist. What do you say you are?
00:00:01.880 I'm a commentator.
00:00:02.620 You're a commentator. And you interview who interests you.
00:00:04.860 Yeah.
00:00:05.580 This is a person who is grotesque, and in her grotesquerie, to make up a word,
00:00:11.160 she has dominated the headlines.
00:00:13.180 She's become a huge figure, not just here, but all around the world.
00:00:16.280 Everyone knows who she is.
00:00:17.140 I tell my Argentinian in-laws about, I'm interviewing Bonnie Blue, they know.
00:00:21.800 Those are the kinds of things that, aside from any kind of inadvertent activism in my journalism,
00:00:28.260 those are the things I enjoy.
00:00:29.660 I like the Louis Theroux stuff.
00:00:32.360 I've done 200 interviews now or so for heretics.
00:00:36.500 A large percentage of them about immigration.
00:00:41.280 Another large percentage of them about trance.
00:00:44.040 And day after day after day after day, I'm sure you must have some of that fatigue of,
00:00:48.780 yes, these are very important topics for me.
00:00:51.040 And they are topics that I go home and discuss with my wife and my family and my friends.
00:00:54.600 And if I'm off air with you, we're going to have this conversation,
00:00:56.960 because that's what's on our minds.
00:00:57.980 But what a relief to be able to interview someone about a culture war topic that isn't those two things.
00:01:05.020 Is that a fair answer?
00:01:05.580 That's a totally fair answer.
00:01:07.040 By saying it's a fair answer, you are now aligning yourself with those of us who have had her on and getting in trouble.
00:01:12.220 I'm not going to align because I'm still going to push back.
00:01:15.400 So what did you learn from her?
00:01:17.980 I learned that I think she's a psychopath.
00:01:20.540 Jesus.
00:01:21.440 Yeah.
00:01:21.740 Okay.
00:01:22.040 And also, she's someone with a very high opinion of herself, which is one of the signs of psychopathy.
00:01:28.080 I want it, given her a facelift, right?
00:01:30.200 Yes.
00:01:30.680 Well, no one knows her age.
00:01:32.320 She says she's whatever age, you know.
00:01:34.620 She says she's in her 20s.
00:01:35.680 People think she's in her 40s.
00:01:37.500 You know, I don't really care too much.
00:01:39.180 I'm fascinated by psychopaths.
00:01:40.600 Again, not just Louis Theroux, but the John Ronson stuff about psychopath spectrum.
00:01:43.640 These are things I never get to discuss on my show.
00:01:45.440 So to go face-to-face with someone and go, are you a psychopath?
00:01:49.100 Someone I interviewed years ago, who I don't believe is a psychopath, was Amanda Knox, the one accused of murdering the Italian woman in her.
00:01:56.440 And I don't think she is a psychopath.
00:01:58.180 But what a thrill it gave me as a journalist to sit in front of her and look eyes into eyes and go, are you a psychopath?
00:02:03.680 Is there anything behind your eyes?
00:02:05.500 I'm in my element doing those kinds of interviews.
00:02:08.880 So I learned I think she is one.
00:02:10.580 She didn't know what psychopathy meant after just lecturing me about how intelligent she is.
00:02:14.620 So that was funny.
00:02:16.840 And I think we did learn as well that something that led her to where she is was potentially not being able to have children.
00:02:26.240 Which I think definitely is part of what you talk about, I talk about, and a lot of our friends talk about this issue we're having.
00:02:33.420 She's kind of a microcosm for an issue around low fertility rates and low rates of having children in this country.
00:02:40.500 And falling into degeneracy and a country that can't work together.
00:02:46.260 So I think she, as a microcosm for that, especially when she gave up that information and showed a weak point there, was to me absolutely fascinating.
00:02:53.460 Sorry to make this all about Bonnie Blue, but I actually find this is a really interesting topic of discussion as well.
00:02:59.120 Exactly.
00:02:59.380 Because, yeah, so I've seen a bunch of interviews with her in, just morbid curiosity, right?
00:03:05.060 And she comes across like what a female version of Andrew Tate would be.
00:03:09.680 Yes.
00:03:10.040 As in, Andrew Tate weaponizes the most destructive and oppressive elements of masculinity in order to become a huge figure.
00:03:18.020 Whereas Bonnie Blue weaponizes the most toxic and destructive elements of femininity.
00:03:22.560 And I saw an interview, she was on Politics Theory the other day, where she said, well, all of the hate I get comes from middle-aged women.
00:03:27.740 I'm like, I bloody bet it does.
00:03:29.220 Yeah.
00:03:29.560 Because they're worried you're going to steal your husband.
00:03:32.380 Where did I get hate from?
00:03:33.580 Middle-aged women for platforming her.
00:03:35.700 Yeah.
00:03:35.940 So there's also the evolutionary theory of the, she lowers the cost of sex for women.
00:03:41.560 Women, I mean, we're talking in stereotypes, of course, talking about evolutionary biology, okay, and the jury's still out about those things.
00:03:48.360 But it makes sense to me that women over the years, in my lifetime, I suppose, in my personal experience, might use sex.
00:03:56.600 And I don't think I'm the first to say that.
00:03:58.060 I'm not talking about my wife.
00:03:59.100 My wife gets upset.
00:03:59.740 I'm talking about...
00:04:00.060 Right, how do you take? Calm down.
00:04:00.680 I know.
00:04:01.560 I know.
00:04:02.000 But I think most women, many women would admit this, that they know men want sex more than women do.
00:04:06.560 That is just a fact.
00:04:07.300 I know there'll be some people going, what do you mean?
00:04:08.540 My ex-girlfriend?
00:04:09.220 And so on.
00:04:09.640 Okay.
00:04:10.020 They're individuals.
00:04:11.120 I think society...
00:04:11.240 I think it's the context in which men and women want sex is different.
00:04:14.940 The context is that men want easy access with no commitment.
00:04:18.680 Women want to know that there's a commitment, and they're the ones who decide.
00:04:22.240 So aren't they then giving sex in return for that commitment?
00:04:24.780 Yeah, yeah.
00:04:25.140 Every relationship is reciprocal.
00:04:26.900 Not to suggest that women don't enjoy sex.
00:04:28.520 Of course they do, but I think it's not the same level as men.
00:04:31.180 So...
00:04:31.580 Again, I think it's contextual, but anyway, it doesn't matter.
00:04:34.360 Bonnie Blue, though, is, of course, lowering the price of sex.
00:04:36.800 And a lot of women who may be saying, hey, I'm not giving it, they're then seeing her, imagining her as a member of the tribe, saying, don't worry, guys.
00:04:43.540 I'll give it for free.
00:04:44.320 Well, of course, there's going to be an evolution.
00:04:45.740 There must be a feeling inside women that really makes them go, ah!
00:04:48.720 Not to say that they don't have a point.
00:04:50.100 Of course they have a point about her.
00:04:51.740 But to be annoyed at her, fine.
00:04:53.800 Don't be annoyed at people platforming her.
00:04:55.100 I've seen some ridiculous takes from mainstream people having a go at Julia Hartley Brewer and saying, oh, well, this is the reason people watch her because they see her on your show.
00:05:03.680 There is no man, teenager, adult, whatever age, there's no man who's going, gosh, I've just seen this lady on talk TV.
00:05:10.180 I must go over to one of these websites and see what I can...
00:05:13.100 You know, that is just maybe a woman's idea of they don't know how disgusting men are.
00:05:18.940 See, I...
00:05:20.080 Sorry to make this all about Bonnie Blue, but this is interesting, right?
00:05:22.820 I'm not sure that it's actually on the practical level that the issue really comes.
00:05:28.960 Because, you know, you're saying, well, you know, she's lowering the sexual market value of women overall by giving it away for free.
00:05:37.360 I...
00:05:37.720 Like, another common criticism would be, well, she's interceding in other people's relationships.
00:05:42.300 Because she actually said, loads of husbands come to me and they go away happily.
00:05:45.800 It's like, well, yeah, I'm sure they do.
00:05:47.700 You know, obviously.
00:05:48.440 I think what she's doing is actually kind of pulling away a veil, a sort of sentimental veil,
00:05:54.820 that we have on the dignity and prestige and specialness of being a woman.
00:06:01.280 As in, we think highly of women when they think highly of themselves.
00:06:06.300 Yeah.
00:06:06.400 And so a woman who will just get into bed with any man, everyone has a low opinion of that woman.
00:06:12.900 And women, therefore, view her as doing something way worse than merely having sex with men.
00:06:19.200 She's actually damaging and degrading all women with her public profile.
00:06:24.480 With the fact that she's prepared to just give it away for free and become a massive prostitute.
00:06:27.920 Like this, you know, whatever.
00:06:29.880 But, like, this, I think, is a degradation of all women.
00:06:33.200 I think that's the thing that middle-aged women, who rely on this dignity when they're...
00:06:37.560 Because women have a lot of social power.
00:06:39.740 And that's predicated on the respect people have for women.
00:06:43.220 Men, specifically, have for women.
00:06:44.800 And if Bonnie Blue destroys that, then these women lose all their social power.
00:06:49.380 Absolutely.
00:06:49.860 Absolutely.
00:06:50.360 It's not good for any of us.
00:06:52.140 So I don't disagree with anything you've said.
00:06:53.940 That's why, if you go back to the start...
00:06:54.580 That's why I platform her.
00:06:56.580 Yeah, well, yeah.
00:06:57.520 Exactly.
00:06:58.060 Exactly the point.
00:06:58.660 I mean, if I platformed her and said, all right, guys, go and check out Bonnie on her websites, go and see this, I think it's a good idea, that's a different thing.
00:07:05.400 I had her on and said, what are you doing?
00:07:07.040 She said, I'm helping kids learn about sex or whatever.
00:07:10.100 Jesus Christ.
00:07:10.820 Or maybe adults or whatever.
00:07:12.360 But I said, by teaching them to choke, you know, I held her to...
00:07:16.680 As much as I'm able to do, as someone, as you know, is not very confrontational, apart from one or two moments that you've witnessed in the past.
00:07:23.020 Except when you're defending byline times.
00:07:25.140 Yes.
00:07:26.660 In one specific occasion.
00:07:28.660 But neither are you, you know, you're not that kind of person.
00:07:32.300 Just as you're having this conversation with me, would it not be more instructive...
00:07:35.600 You've obviously made a decision in your mind, one I think is right, that this is instructive and interesting for your audience.
00:07:40.780 Would it not be even more so where she actually sat in?
00:07:44.320 Possibly, but I do find her kind of gross.
00:07:46.880 She is gross.
00:07:47.580 I don't really want to be around her.
00:07:49.600 Well, she looked like she'd showered.
00:07:51.520 Oh, that's good, but it's not...
00:07:52.720 I'm not physically, as in, I don't think she smells.
00:07:55.660 I think the things that she does is gross.
00:07:58.920 Yeah.
00:07:59.280 Gross.
00:07:59.880 I agree with you.
00:08:00.620 And the fact that she just views herself as just a piece of meat is actually kind of repulsive.
00:08:08.380 Having looked into Psychopaths before, and they do really interest me, and they obviously interest a lot of people.
00:08:12.120 Because outside of our culture war stuff, there's a lot of interest in true crime.
00:08:15.560 Oh, God.
00:08:16.320 Yeah, women love it.
00:08:17.380 Yeah, women do love it.
00:08:18.400 My wife listens to it all the time.
00:08:19.700 Well, it's because they're the victims of it.
00:08:20.780 So they have to know.
00:08:23.140 Psychologically, I'm not even going to go down that hole, but go on.
00:08:25.340 Yeah.
00:08:26.940 I was just thinking about the line you just said.
00:08:28.480 Oh, no.
00:08:28.840 I should have said rabbit hole.
00:08:30.060 As a trailer for the Bonnie Blue episode that now is going out on Lotus East.
00:08:33.800 Well, I'm definitely not going there.
00:08:35.940 No, no, no.
00:08:36.660 And nor should you.
00:08:37.620 I mean, what she did is repulsive.
00:08:39.120 Yeah.
00:08:39.500 Repulsive.
00:08:39.980 Disgusting.
00:08:41.020 One psychopath I spoke to years ago told me that psychopaths don't actually have a sense of self.
00:08:46.060 There's no me.
00:08:47.240 There's no continued I.
00:08:48.820 It's just moment to moment to moment survival.
00:08:52.020 That doesn't mean you plot to kill all your enemies.
00:08:54.160 No, no, no.
00:08:54.460 You could be a lovely psychopath or whatever.
00:08:56.500 I think, too, again, one of the key parts of being a psychopath is that you don't get disgusted easily by anything.
00:09:02.460 For me, I mean, it's an open and shut case.
00:09:04.080 This is a woman heavily on the psychopathy spectrum, and she's done discussing things.
00:09:08.380 She just doesn't care.
00:09:09.520 Yeah, there's nothing.
00:09:10.800 There's no feeling.
00:09:11.700 And this is the thing.
00:09:12.540 She's constantly rebutting people, saying, I'm not a victim.
00:09:15.040 Why would you think I'm a victim?
00:09:16.260 It's like, yeah, no, I agree.
00:09:17.680 I think you don't understand the thing that you've lost by doing the thing you do.
00:09:22.740 Yeah.
00:09:23.160 And what does she earn?
00:09:24.720 A lot of money.
00:09:25.260 Yeah, exactly.
00:09:25.640 She's got a huge amount of money.
00:09:27.120 Obviously, she doesn't see herself as a victim.
00:09:29.100 So what should happen to Bonnie Blue in a just society?
00:09:33.100 Why don't you answer that first?
00:09:34.800 Because I'm asking the question.
00:09:37.060 I did.
00:09:37.460 I think she's, you said earlier, again, for anyone who doesn't know, we've been doing
00:09:42.900 talks and things.
00:09:44.220 You said misinformation, disinformation, and lies will sort themselves out.
00:09:49.340 I'm paraphrasing.
00:09:49.960 Will sort themselves out because people watch enough, and they will see who is lying, and
00:09:54.000 who is good, and who is not.
00:09:55.100 I would like to hope enough people will watch Bonnie Blue and not want to emulate her, but
00:10:00.660 instead go, my God, that is the worst possible thing I could be.
00:10:04.300 And in that sense, if I'm right about that, maybe I'm being naive.
00:10:08.300 That would be, she's almost a plus for society.
00:10:10.560 She is a paragon of un-virtue.
00:10:13.080 She is the ultimate villain that people should not aspire to.
00:10:17.000 But she's also worth like a hundred times what you're worth.
00:10:19.200 Yes.
00:10:21.800 Is that just?
00:10:22.360 What is your worth about money?
00:10:24.340 Well, I mean, is it just that the world's most rampant prostitute becomes a multi-millionaire?
00:10:29.660 Probably not, no.
00:10:30.600 That's a good point, right?
00:10:31.200 Probably not just.
00:10:31.660 But these are the difficult...
00:10:32.360 So what do you do to affect them?
00:10:33.480 Well, that's the question, right?
00:10:34.640 And that's why I asked you.
00:10:35.640 Now I want to know your answer.
00:10:36.440 Yeah, well, you know I answer.
00:10:37.740 I know your answer, but the audience don't.
00:10:38.740 Confine her to a nunnery.
00:10:39.700 Isn't it get thee to a nunnery?
00:10:42.960 No, confine her to it.
00:10:44.440 I thought you were quite a hammer.
00:10:45.820 No, no, I'm not.
00:10:47.040 Just literally arrest her and put her in a nunnery and just make her stay there forever.
00:10:50.940 I mean, this is actually, I wish I'd asked this.
00:10:54.060 Is it illegal what she does?
00:10:55.700 No, that's the problem.
00:10:57.180 Well, maybe that's a step.
00:10:58.480 And I bet if we put it to the 99% of women who can vote, I'm sure they're going to be like,
00:11:05.140 no, I agree with that Sargon chap.
00:11:06.880 She's going to the bloody nunnery.
00:11:08.260 But the funny thing is men are very varied in this.
00:11:11.500 So there'll be some people watching now going, get me to a nunnery.
00:11:14.320 And there'll be others going, it's an interview.
00:11:16.820 I watched her last night.
00:11:17.840 You know, there's all different kinds of people.
00:11:20.100 By the way, that's not me saying I watched her last night.
00:11:22.340 That's the impression of a viewer.
00:11:25.760 So, yeah, I don't know what we do.
00:11:28.540 I'm very anti-authoritarian measures.
00:11:30.860 I know that over the years, and you and I have had discussions over the years where my idea of liberalism is being challenged more and more.
00:11:38.660 And I'm seeing the problems with it.
00:11:41.040 But this is one of those problems, right?
00:11:42.940 So I don't like the concept of authoritarianism either.
00:11:46.520 But if we are completely hands-off and utterly liberal about the thing, then we could end up with a society of ultra-rich Bonnie Blues,
00:11:54.660 where actual hard-working men and women who are doing the right thing find themselves with hardly any money.
00:12:01.100 And so Bonnie Blues in her mansion going, well, look, she's just been a psychopath like me.
00:12:04.960 That's a real problem.
00:12:05.920 Well, first you have to be a psychopath, because I think most women couldn't do what she does, even if they wanted to, because it's the most disgusting thing ever.
00:12:12.820 It's physically awful.
00:12:15.300 So most women couldn't.
00:12:15.920 So is there a real danger, you think?
00:12:18.700 Do you think there's a real danger that this would lead to a whole...?
00:12:21.200 I don't think every woman or anything like that.
00:12:22.880 But I think a lot of women will be led down the garden path by her, thinking, oh, I can do this, make lots of money.
00:12:30.620 And then when I'm 30 or whatever, I'll cash out, retire, and get on with my life.
00:12:35.260 And I think instead what they'll do is completely corrupt themselves, find themselves actually not nearly as successful as her, and have basically ruined their lives.
00:12:44.760 Yeah, I think that will happen.
00:12:45.760 I think it's a real risk.
00:12:46.420 But I suppose, OK, completely different.
00:12:48.180 This is different.
00:12:48.800 But let's say there are loads of 15-, 16-year-olds who want to play football for a living, and they give up everything in their lives to go and do that.
00:12:55.900 They fail.
00:12:56.720 They should really have done A-levels or whatever and had a fallback.
00:12:59.780 Do we as a society get involved and say, hey, you guys, we're going to not make it legal anymore for you to...?
00:13:06.900 Is that not the nanny state?
00:13:08.520 No, because it's not perverse to try and become a footballer.
00:13:11.800 So it's the perversion aspect, yeah.
00:13:13.800 It doesn't ruin your reputation.
00:13:15.340 You say, oh, I tried for 10 years when I was 18 to become a footballer in 28 and washed up.
00:13:20.500 So you can go back to school.
00:13:21.900 You can get a degree in something else.
00:13:23.420 You can get a job in something else.
00:13:25.200 Your social reputation hasn't been ruined forever.
00:13:27.760 So if you've been an OnlyFans girl, there are loads of videos online of young women who've done OnlyFans who have gone, everyone keeps reminding me all day, every day.
00:13:36.380 I can't get a boyfriend.
00:13:37.680 I can't get married.
00:13:38.720 Because no one's going to marry you because of this.
00:13:40.420 Yeah, because this is a moral issue.
00:13:43.820 Being a footballer is not an immoral thing.
00:13:45.340 Trying to become a footballer is not a immoral thing.
00:13:47.320 Becoming an online prostitute, well, it is.
00:13:50.640 And everyone knows it.
00:13:51.300 Well, I think you and I agree completely about the morality of what she does.
00:13:55.400 I think that's fair to say.
00:13:56.220 We both completely agree.
00:13:57.900 My concern is introducing a morality of police.
00:14:01.440 Aren't all laws about morality there?
00:14:03.260 Well, are there laws about morality?
00:14:04.340 Yeah.
00:14:04.820 All laws are putatively moral, right?
00:14:09.140 You don't instantiate a law of something you think isn't a moral issue.
00:14:13.260 Why would you?
00:14:14.740 To what extent do we say, I hate these things, but is it not?
00:14:19.600 I mean, the very nature of hate speech laws, for example, are based on the immorality of
00:14:24.420 saying racist things from one person to another, right?
00:14:26.600 But you don't support hate speech laws.
00:14:28.240 Neither do I.
00:14:29.160 I don't agree with the morality that underpins it.
00:14:32.060 But a law for murder, for example, is based in morality.
00:14:36.220 Laws against rape are based in morality.
00:14:37.960 All laws should, and it is, based in morality.
00:14:40.700 The question is just whose morality is it?
00:14:42.880 But those laws are based on whether other people have seemed to have been hurt by a perpetrator.
00:14:47.760 So rape, for example, is an example.
00:14:49.120 Again, that's a moral judgment that you're making.
00:14:53.000 Okay.
00:14:53.400 Because, I mean, for example, removing the death penalty is also a moral judgment.
00:14:57.180 Someone is definitely hurt by the death penalty, but that's the moral thing to do, in my opinion.
00:15:01.600 Because I'm in favor of the death penalty.
00:15:02.720 To what extent, I suppose where we're differing here is I come from a background, and I might
00:15:07.240 change it in a few years, you know, I might listen and whatever, but I come from a place
00:15:11.060 of what you do that doesn't hurt other people is not an issue for the law.
00:15:15.460 It might be an issue for us to judge and condemn, but it's not an issue for the law.
00:15:20.040 Interesting.
00:15:20.660 Thanks, Andrew, so much for joining me.
00:15:22.140 Thank you.
00:15:22.800 What a great chat.
00:15:25.880 Look forward to people's responses on this one.
00:15:27.680 I'm going to get killed.