The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters - July 30, 2025


South Africa At A Crossroads ｜ Interview with Rob Hersov


Episode Stats


Length

55 minutes

Words per minute

147.24214

Word count

8,174

Sentence count

710

Harmful content

Misogyny

6

sentences flagged

Toxicity

72

sentences flagged

Hate speech

36

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Rob Hursiv was born in 1960 in Johannesburg, South Africa. He grew up in a very privileged and loving family and had a loving mother and a loving father. But growing up in the 1960s and 70s in South Africa was not always so easy.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome to this interview of the Lotus Eaters. 0.87
00:00:02.460 I'm your host, Stelios, and I'm very pleased to be interviewing today, Mr. Rob Hursiv.
00:00:06.700 Hi, Stelios. Happy to be here. I just flew in from South Africa.
00:00:10.760 It's so nice of you to be here with us, and I'm really interested in interviewing you.
00:00:16.240 And South Africa is something, is a country about which I'm learning new things every day.
00:00:22.880 And I think it's going to be a very educational experience for me.
00:00:27.220 But also, we have some concerning news every now and then.
00:00:33.920 So it seems like some things are in that well, aren't going well there.
00:00:38.520 Things are not well, as Shakespeare would say, in the state of Denmark.
00:00:41.960 Things are not well in South Africa at all.
00:00:43.980 In fact, it's reached a point where things have to crack.
00:00:48.460 Things have to break for us to actually fix the situation.
00:00:52.460 I suppose my first question is, what was growing up in South Africa like?
00:00:57.960 Okay, so I was born in 1960 in Johannesburg to a loving mum and dad and a very wealthy family.
00:01:06.100 So I was the lucky sperm club.
00:01:09.140 That's one way of putting it.
00:01:11.200 I was born into great wealth in Johannesburg in the most beautiful country in the world.
00:01:16.380 And it really is the most beautiful country in the world.
00:01:19.340 And into a world that was, you know, unusual because we had the national government, a white government, that instituted a policy called apartheid.
00:01:30.020 And everyone's heard the word apartheid, but no one knows what it actually means.
00:01:34.660 Apartheid means separateness. 0.95
00:01:36.360 And the concept of apartheid was separate development.
00:01:41.060 That was the basis of it.
00:01:43.020 And if you roll back a couple of hundred years, the Dutch arrived in the Cape in 1650.
00:01:52.780 Okay.
00:01:52.960 Remember, the Mayflower reached America in 1620.
00:01:56.100 The Dutch established a permanent station in the Cape in 1650.
00:02:01.240 Okay.
00:02:01.560 So if we're settlers, we've been there a very, very long time.
00:02:07.480 And the black tribes had moved south from East Africa hundreds of thousands of years before.
00:02:14.520 And they too arrived in South Africa in their own time.
00:02:18.800 And the two tribes, the white tribes and the black tribes, met more or less at the Fish River, which is about 700, 800 kilometers north up the coast from Cape Town.
00:02:29.760 And you can only imagine that, you know, the colonial powers that arrived in the Cape and then further up country in the Eastern Cape and Natal, met people that didn't have the written word, you know, were massacring each other.
00:02:48.480 Very savage people, but also some very decent, nice tribes people.
00:02:53.180 And the white and the black tribes worked together, fought each other. 0.98
00:02:56.660 And eventually South Africa was created.
00:02:58.760 The Union of South Africa was only formed in 1910.
00:03:02.120 So it's a relatively new country.
00:03:04.140 It was made up of different or different unions, federations.
00:03:08.440 And where we got to was there were many wars.
00:03:13.100 There were the Anglo-Zulu Wars where the British fought the Zulus, the main black tribe of South Africa.
00:03:19.520 And there were the Anglo-Boer Wars where the British fought the Afrikaners, or the people of Dutch, French, Huguenot heritage.
00:03:26.700 So South Africa has been a warlike country with a lot of wars and problems for all of its history, including South Africa fighting in the First and Second World War on the side of the British and the Allies.
00:03:39.900 And in 1948, for the first time ever, the Afrikaners, who were the majority of the white tribes, or tribe at that point, came into power.
00:03:49.200 And over the next 10, 12 years, they began to institute this policy of apartheid.
00:03:54.840 And you can understand the intellectual side of it, if you're prepared to have an open mind, that there were these people, the black tribes, who were, I'm not going to use the word less civilized, but who were not as advanced as the white tribes by any means. 0.95
00:04:13.040 You know, when they first met, there was no, barely had the wheel.
00:04:16.560 They had, you know, pretty basic tribal ways of living.
00:04:21.460 They had no written word.
00:04:23.300 And so there was a huge gap between the two civilizations.
00:04:26.800 And we know you, one can catch up very quickly with education, with proper opportunity.
00:04:32.740 But I think in the 1930s and 1940s, you know, the white rulers still felt that, you know, the black tribes hadn't reached a point where they were equal.
00:04:44.860 And so this policy of apartheid was instituted, and it began in a very intellectual way.
00:04:51.660 But then, as with many ideologies, ended up being, you know, way more money spent on black kids and way less money spent on, sorry, way more money spent on white kids, way less money spent on black kids for education.
00:05:06.780 And it didn't work out.
00:05:08.220 And in 1985, the Afrikaner government decided, independently of what was going on, but pressure did come from international sanctions, that this was unsustainable.
00:05:18.680 And by 1994, the first democratic elections, Nelson Mandela's African National Congress, ANC, was elected.
00:05:27.020 But growing up in Johannesburg in the 60s and 70s, and then being at school in South Africa and university was spectacular, you know, fantastic weather, huge opportunities, a great country.
00:05:37.980 You know, I was very privileged, and I'm very fortunate to have such an extraordinary childhood and upbringing.
00:05:45.160 I'm very grateful for it, and I don't take it for granted.
00:05:47.160 So you're raising all sorts of issues, and it seems to me that we can start drawing a picture of the Dutch Republic in the 1650s, having won the Habsburg Spain during the 80 Years War,
00:06:03.720 and then expanding and going to South Africa, and from my understanding, they didn't meet the tribes that now claim to be the indigenous tribes at the point.
00:06:16.360 Who did they meet?
00:06:17.620 And they met the tribes, you said, 700, 800 kilometers to the north.
00:06:22.780 Who lived there?
00:06:24.760 There were Strandlopers, which is a direct translation as beach walkers, so nomadic individual people.
00:06:31.840 There were the Khoi Sam, the original very, I won't say primitive, it's probably the word will trigger people and upset people, but people from a very ancient civilization that were really not even hunter-gatherers.
00:06:48.280 They were just nomadic people that lived off the land.
00:06:51.860 And the Portuguese who had, you know, Vasco da Gama and had traveled south around the African continent, but hadn't stopped these beautiful old crosses that they put where they actually moored to pick up vegetables and food.
00:07:07.740 They had faced up to the Khoi Sam in a few battles, but hadn't stayed in Africa. 0.98
00:07:12.860 So the original people that the Dutch colonists discovered were the Khoi Sam.
00:07:21.780 Right.
00:07:22.280 So you mentioned apartheid standing for separateness.
00:07:27.120 And could you give us some examples of how was it to live under apartheid?
00:07:31.960 What were the, how did the separateness manifest institutionally speaking, and also on a daily human level?
00:07:40.260 Well, so I suppose the most egregious element of it was that all black citizens of South Africa had to carry a pass, a document, to say where they were from in South Africa, and that they were in white areas to work. 0.54
00:07:56.920 So at any time a policeman could say, show me your pass, where it wasn't required of a white person, there were black schools, white schools, there were black hospitals, white hospitals, transport was separate, everything became separate. 0.68
00:08:11.980 And, you know, there were those infamous signs that you can still see the photographs of from the old days, of slecht blankers, whites only, or blacks only. 0.90
00:08:20.980 Beaches were separate, you know. 0.56
00:08:23.140 Black people couldn't go to beaches that were reserved for whites only. 0.91
00:08:26.300 It was a country of separateness, of separate development. 0.75
00:08:29.340 And in the 1970s, 25% of the population of South Africa was white.
00:08:37.340 Yeah.
00:08:37.720 Today, it's 7%.
00:08:38.920 So the population growth of the black people in South Africa has been exponential, whereas of the white people has been, you know, not nearly as fast.
00:08:52.600 And also a lot of the, I think a million of the 5 million white people that were around in the 1970s and 80s have left the country, have emigrated.
00:09:02.740 It's been a terrible brain drain since the 1970s, because there was this issue of Swart Ghafar, which if you translate directly means black, fear of the blacks.
00:09:13.900 Swart Ghafar.
00:09:14.600 Swart Ghafar, there was the fear of the communists moving south through Africa in the 1970s and 80s.
00:09:20.600 Then there was the fear of, you know, revolution.
00:09:23.020 Then there was the fear of international sanctions.
00:09:25.780 And all of a sudden, 1994, we had a democratic election, and Nelson Mandela and his ANC swept to power.
00:09:32.920 And there was the rainbow nation, the great hope for South Africa.
00:09:37.820 Right.
00:09:38.340 So I want to ask you a bit about Nelson Mandela.
00:09:41.700 But before I ask you this, I have another question.
00:09:44.600 To what extent did this happen to countries near South Africa, which raises fear exponentially that the same thing can happen to South Africans, to white South Africans?
00:10:01.080 Yeah.
00:10:01.300 So if you look at the colonies in Africa, there were the British colonies, East Africa, Kenya.
00:10:06.680 There was Zambia, which was northern Rhodesia.
00:10:11.540 There was Rhodesia itself.
00:10:13.880 And then there were the Portuguese colonies of Angola and Mozambique.
00:10:17.440 And in 1975, you know, there was a revolution in Portugal, and they pulled out almost overnight.
00:10:23.560 They had a big military presence there.
00:10:25.340 Overnight, they pulled out.
00:10:26.260 And those countries collapsed into communism, terrorism, and really horrific situations on our borders.
00:10:36.220 So the South African military was in Southwest Africa, which is now called Namibia.
00:10:42.720 And on that border, the Angolan border, the MPLA, which was the Russian-backed and Cuban-backed Marxist organization, fought against within Angola.
00:10:54.340 UNITA, which was South African and American-backed.
00:10:57.660 And all of us, my age, went to the military.
00:11:01.920 I spent two years as an infantry officer, 1983 and 1984, as did all my colleagues.
00:11:07.940 You know, you were called up for national service.
00:11:10.040 And we fought on the border of Namibia or Southwest Africa and Angola.
00:11:16.420 Mozambique also had a similar collapse overnight.
00:11:20.180 People streaming across the border to escape.
00:11:22.140 And that country melted down into a sort of Marxist-inspired morass.
00:11:28.460 And Rhodesia stood firm. 0.66
00:11:30.260 Rhodesia announced UDI, Unilateral Declaration of Independence.
00:11:34.900 And there was the most extraordinary resistance against the oncoming onslaught of communism and all those things that we feared in the 70s and 80s.
00:11:44.960 And they held out for a very long time.
00:11:46.620 And eventually, Rhodesia went over to democratic and black rule.
00:11:52.660 Mugabe came in, and we all know the story there, destroyed their economy.
00:11:56.620 So South Africa was sitting there with a very large white population and large colored and Indian population.
00:12:03.820 I think it's important just to differentiate that there are 26 black tribes in South Africa, the biggest being Zulu and Gaza.
00:12:11.460 There are 24 other languages and black tribes, Soutu, Swana, Ndebele.
00:12:17.380 It's difficult to communicate.
00:12:18.660 It's complex.
00:12:19.680 And in the white tribes, everyone thinks they're the Afrikaners and the English, the Anglos. 0.54
00:12:26.180 But within the Afrikaners, there were obviously descendants of the Dutch, the French, and the German.
00:12:32.180 The French Huguenots who were expelled from France.
00:12:35.740 Yeah, after the Edict of Nantes was revoked.
00:12:39.080 And a lot of the names in South Africa, Duplessis, Desclercs, are obviously of French origin.
00:12:44.220 That's where they come from.
00:12:45.420 But on the Anglo-English-speaking side of the white tribes, there are all the other agglomerations.
00:12:51.020 The Jews that escaped Eastern Europe and Russia, people from England, the 1820 settlers, the Portuguese who'd come south from Angola and Mozambique.
00:13:01.040 So South Africa is a very large country.
00:13:03.200 It's half the size of Western Europe.
00:13:05.360 It's twice the size of France.
00:13:06.600 And it's a very complex country.
00:13:09.040 So the northeast of South Africa has really nothing to do with the Cape.
00:13:13.140 They're very different.
00:13:14.420 And there are many languages.
00:13:15.620 Nice and complicated.
00:13:17.140 Nice.
00:13:17.800 So you mentioned Nelson Mandela, but also communist infiltration in South Africa.
00:13:23.700 Wasn't Nelson Mandela involved in communist activity and communist subversion before he was elected president, after his 27 years in prison?
00:13:35.720 27 years.
00:13:36.380 He went to prison 27 years as a terrorist.
00:13:39.500 Yeah.
00:13:39.680 Because he formed the military armed wing of the ANC, which is called Umkunte Wesizwe, initials are M-K.
00:13:48.560 Now, they reappear.
00:13:49.820 Okay.
00:13:50.080 So we'll just keep that in mind.
00:13:51.540 He founded that.
00:13:52.920 He went to jail.
00:13:53.640 He was convicted.
00:13:55.200 And even he was given a fair trial.
00:13:58.000 Yeah.
00:13:58.120 And even though every organization that defends against, you know, these sort of situations decided not to pursue the South African courts because he was given a fair trial.
00:14:08.920 He was jailed for being a terrorist.
00:14:10.700 And that's what he was, a terrorist.
00:14:13.920 But he was released prior to 1994.
00:14:17.780 And having spent so much time in jail, he came out realizing the only way for this country to survive, to be fixed, to mend the wounds, was to be a conciliatory, spiritual, visionary leader of South Africa.
00:14:34.100 And that he was, but in the basic mandate of the ANC, was communism, elitism, and actually anti-white racism, which is now coming to the fore, which we'll talk about just now.
00:14:49.500 Of course.
00:14:50.500 Right.
00:14:50.900 So do you think that he was also sabotaged in that effort by his family environment?
00:14:56.680 I've heard that his wife, during the end of his, the latter period of his imprisonment, was in favor of some very brutal practices.
00:15:04.960 Necklacing. 0.78
00:15:05.720 Yes, with black people who were suspected of being informants. 0.94
00:15:11.800 Correct. 1.00
00:15:12.520 She was an absolute monster. 1.00
00:15:14.540 She was a Satan, a witch. 0.99
00:15:17.560 And, you know, there's one pretty main road in Johannesburg called the Winnie Mandela Drive. 0.97
00:15:23.340 And it makes me sick when you think of the, of the things that she promoted.
00:15:29.040 There's a, there's a terrible form of killing in South Africa called necklacing, where people had tires thrown around them and there was satellite, burned to death.
00:15:38.160 This is Winnie Mandela, Nelson Mandela's wife. 0.97
00:15:41.040 She was an absolute monster. 0.86
00:15:42.900 And you think, you claim that he was a pillar of stability throughout his rule?
00:15:49.400 Yes, because I think having spent 27 years in jail, you know, he realized the only way to make this country work was to let bygones be bygones, focus on forward thinking.
00:15:59.860 And even though the ANC had all the evil within it that is manifesting itself now, he held that back while he was in power.
00:16:09.780 And he was followed by Thabo Mbeki, who even though he had major faults, like saying that HIV and AIDS, you know, couldn't cure them and they were meant to happen. 0.99
00:16:22.840 And he was quite extraordinarily stupid when it came to things like that. 0.95
00:16:26.740 The economy grew at three to 5% a year. 1.00
00:16:29.420 We added 500,000 jobs a year.
00:16:32.100 And the, the, and there was still meritocracy in the country.
00:16:35.420 You know, businesses and state-owned enterprises were run by competent people who got the job done.
00:16:40.640 And the country was trending in the right direction.
00:16:43.300 But within the mandate of the ANC, all the evil was there, was being implemented and has come to bear today.
00:16:51.140 So, I think that in the Western mind, in the collective consciousness, that isn't particularly political and doesn't follow the politics of South Africa.
00:17:00.660 There has been a sort of myth or story, let's say.
00:17:06.900 The Mandela legend.
00:17:07.820 Yeah, the Mandela legend, according to which Nelson Mandela was a sort of saint-like figure.
00:17:13.820 And ever since, everything has been great in South Africa.
00:17:16.620 And if we fast forward to today, we've started listening about some really disconcerting stuff like farm murders.
00:17:26.860 Some people are talking about white genocide and also complete and total infrastructural collapse.
00:17:35.260 All correct.
00:17:36.000 All in place.
00:17:36.940 All in place.
00:17:37.460 So, could we fast forward to today and describe, could you please describe, let's start with infrastructure and then go progress to the more monstrous.
00:17:48.700 So, South Africa is falling apart.
00:17:50.720 It's falling apart at the seams.
00:17:52.520 All of the state-owned enterprises, ESCOM, Electricity Supply Commission, we have up to six hours a day of blackout across the country.
00:18:02.180 Transnet, the rail network, is barely functional.
00:18:08.680 Denel, we had one of the great arms exporters in the world, bankrupt.
00:18:12.900 South African Airways was the best airline in Africa by far, as good as gone, as good as bankrupt.
00:18:20.180 And these have been systematically destroyed by the ANC for two reasons.
00:18:24.680 One, they break so they can steal.
00:18:28.760 It's all about kleptocracy. 0.98
00:18:30.120 And two, they've had this policy called cadre, or CADRE, deployment, which Cyril Ramaphosa has been a fundamental proponent of cadre deployment.
00:18:41.080 I think in 2005 was the first main committee meeting, although they were deploying loyalists well in advance of that.
00:18:48.320 But it was accelerated from 2005 onwards into positions of power, not just in state-owned enterprises, but on our institutions of democracy and judiciary.
00:19:00.340 So what happened was there was this concept called state capture, and it began in full force when this gangster called Jacob Zuma became president.
00:19:12.600 And Jacob Zuma was in power until 2017.
00:19:15.580 And from 2008 to 2017 saw the collapse of all of our state-owned enterprises, stolen to death, broken to death, by incompetent people who were ANC loyalists.
00:19:28.740 Secondly, laws have been implemented, not just under Jacob Zuma, but increasingly under our spineless current president, Cyril Ramaphosa, called black economic empowerment.
00:19:43.540 And even though that began in the 1990s, and South Africa accepted it as empowering previously disadvantaged, what it's really turned into is theft.
00:19:55.780 So 100 families have stolen over a trillion rand from the economy.
00:20:02.320 So black economic empowerment hasn't empowered the broad-based black or previously disadvantaged population of South Africa.
00:20:10.020 It's empowered a hundred families.
00:20:13.000 And the families are Cyril Ramaphosa, Patrice Murtseppi, Mocin Goshing.
00:20:18.280 I can keep naming them.
00:20:19.560 It's pretty obvious who they are.
00:20:23.520 And then there's a law which was signed into law by Cyril Ramaphosa in the last 12 months called expropriation without compensation. 0.62
00:20:32.520 And if you want to think of a more stupid name for a law, something that will chase away all foreign direct investment, you'd call it expropriation without compensation.
00:20:43.120 Everywhere in the world you have expropriation with compensation. 0.95
00:20:46.280 You know, if you want to build a railway or an airport, you've got to expropriate land from people.
00:20:51.060 But it's with compensation. 0.98
00:20:52.320 We have the morons of the ANC introducing EWC, and it's scared away all foreign direct investment. 0.99
00:20:59.140 So these people have destroyed our economy because they are kleptocrats. 0.99
00:21:05.460 But they've done it through cadre deployment and putting incompetent or ineptocratic people in positions of power.
00:21:12.980 We have no idea what they're doing.
00:21:14.800 Break so they can steal.
00:21:16.680 And there's de-industrialization.
00:21:20.420 So fixed investment in South Africa is at about 15% of GNP.
00:21:28.020 It should be at 25% for an emerging market.
00:21:31.260 We are de-industrializing.
00:21:33.300 And the final stat, if I can give you one more.
00:21:36.320 Of course.
00:21:36.800 We are growing at 0.5% GDP and have been around there for the last 10 years.
00:21:45.860 And our population growth is 2%.
00:21:47.820 Every year we get poorer.
00:21:50.500 So GDP may be increasing, but GDP per capita is decreasing rapidly.
00:21:56.840 Correct.
00:21:57.480 Rapidly.
00:21:58.140 But if you're growing at less than 1%, you're not growing.
00:22:01.160 You're actually going backwards.
00:22:02.460 Yeah.
00:22:02.580 So it seems like you are describing Jacob Zuma's coming in in 2008 and saying,
00:22:11.460 I'm going to capture the state.
00:22:13.080 I'm going to put my people in the judiciary, in the...
00:22:17.200 Democratic institutions.
00:22:18.280 Everywhere.
00:22:18.480 State-owned enterprises.
00:22:19.600 Exactly.
00:22:20.040 Yeah.
00:22:20.320 And he created the sort of clientelist system.
00:22:23.160 Correct.
00:22:23.740 Where it's his family and other families.
00:22:28.080 Correct.
00:22:28.320 And the only way to enter government or do anything is by somehow...
00:22:34.880 Loyalty.
00:22:35.280 Loyalty to the...
00:22:36.380 Voting for the ANC, being part of the mafia cartel.
00:22:39.700 But it's worse than that.
00:22:41.640 It's not just incompetence and malevolence.
00:22:45.200 At that level, they've also impoverished the country.
00:22:49.080 Cyril Ramaphosa announced that he proudly, the government is paying 25 million people
00:22:57.240 a 350 rand a month social grant.
00:23:01.120 Proudly.
00:23:01.980 So he is impoverishing the country, making them dependent on the ANC, so they'll vote for 0.98
00:23:08.480 the ANC.
00:23:08.960 So he not only has this hundred families that are looting and stealing, but he has 25 million
00:23:15.020 people desperate, relying on social grants.
00:23:17.940 It seems to me that this would not happen unless there was a sort of socialist ideological
00:23:24.260 hegemony in South Africa.
00:23:27.180 When did this start?
00:23:28.180 You said something about the 70s and 80s, but was it...
00:23:31.860 In the 1960s was the first proper document put together called the National Democratic
00:23:36.840 Revolution.
00:23:37.940 I was nervous of things that come in three letters, D-E-I, C-R-T, E-S-G, you know, and
00:23:45.160 then the National Democratic Revolution was put in place.
00:23:47.940 And that document has been instituted over the next 60 years, 50 years, and it's manifesting
00:23:56.040 itself right now with the collapse of the economy, the collapse of our democratic institutions.
00:24:01.800 And, you know, we are facing ruin.
00:24:07.120 But let me give you a quick electoral history.
00:24:09.900 The ANC has been in power since 1994 with the majority.
00:24:14.900 In 2024 in May was the first time they lost their majority.
00:24:19.800 They fell from 56% to 41%.
00:24:24.000 A massive fall.
00:24:25.720 And the Democratic Alliance, which started off just winning Cape Town in 1994, now has the
00:24:33.300 whole of the Western Cape and a lot of the metros and other areas across the country, which
00:24:38.120 is the party you and I would probably vote for, which is the sort of center, center, free market, center-right.
00:24:46.220 They're not center-right, they're center.
00:24:48.020 They went from almost nothing in 1994 to 22% in 2024.
00:24:57.120 But things are collapsing, our infrastructure is collapsing, our roads have potholes.
00:25:01.620 Anywhere outside of the Western Cape, which is run by the Democratic Alliance, is falling
00:25:07.020 apart.
00:25:08.020 There's sewage on the streets, there's sewage being pumped into the ocean, you know, people
00:25:12.720 go without water for days on end, people in cities.
00:25:16.220 And Johannesburg, the most powerful economic unit in Africa, is falling apart.
00:25:23.120 So we have municipal elections coming in 2027, February, and our next national elections
00:25:30.220 in 2029.
00:25:32.300 We have to survive till then.
00:25:34.220 And you asked me about pessimism and optimism.
00:25:36.500 I'm very pessimistic over the next three years, four years.
00:25:40.160 Very pessimistic.
00:25:41.160 South Africa is going to get worse and worse and worse.
00:25:44.640 But after 2029 is where there's light at the end of the tunnel.
00:25:49.100 But what we need in 2029, the ANC to go from 40% to 20%, and the Democratic Alliance
00:25:56.640 and allies, to go from 21, 22% to 40%, and then some form of coalition to over 50%.
00:26:05.800 That is our only chance on a local level that we haven't talked internationally.
00:26:12.920 Yes, we'll go to Trump then in a bit, because I'm interested to hear more about farm murders.
00:26:20.160 Yeah.
00:26:21.160 Because we have all these, you mentioned that the ANC's support has decreased.
00:26:28.340 And from my understanding, Sir Ramaphosa has started placating some other problematic voices 0.97
00:26:34.960 to stay in power that are chanting genocidal messages, like, kill the boar, shoot the farmer. 0.94
00:26:41.980 And they're dancing as if that's something that is acceptable. 0.96
00:26:46.380 And also, I'm incredibly mad when I see lots of leftists here saying that, oh, everything
00:26:54.880 is hate speech.
00:26:55.540 If you criticize it, it's hate speech.
00:26:58.120 But somehow saying, shoot the boar, isn't hate speech.
00:27:02.440 So how did this happen?
00:27:05.540 Okay.
00:27:06.540 So during what they call the struggle, the liberation against apartheid, they did sing those songs.
00:27:15.660 And because our judiciary has been captured by ANC loyalists, I'd say 60% to 70% of the 0.99
00:27:24.600 High Court and other judges in South Africa are either stupid, incompetent, or are loyal 0.99
00:27:31.180 to the ANC, decisions will go in their favor. 0.99
00:27:35.540 And AFRI Forum, a very prominent civil rights organization, which started off as an Afrikaans
00:27:41.060 organization.
00:27:42.060 Now it's pan South Africa, representing all groups and all peoples, all minorities, took
00:27:48.300 this case to the High Court.
00:27:50.000 Yeah.
00:27:51.000 And they decided it was not hate speech.
00:27:52.000 It was a liberation song.
00:27:55.000 But this is being challenged again, because that was a compromised decision.
00:27:59.940 Whenever Julius Malema and his red berets of the economic freedom fighters, which has nothing
00:28:05.620 to do with economy or freedom.
00:28:06.620 Like People's Republic of North Korea.
00:28:09.620 Exactly.
00:28:10.620 They're a hard left, communist, opportunist, money-grabbing organization.
00:28:18.500 And they, by the way, have about, I think they're at 8%, 9% of the vote, so that's 60 million
00:28:23.620 people.
00:28:24.620 That's a lot of people that support them.
00:28:26.620 Yeah. 0.99
00:28:27.620 They're just jumping up and down in stadiums, 90,000 people, shouting, kill the boar, kill 1.00
00:28:31.700 the farmer. 1.00
00:28:32.700 One settler, one bullet.
00:28:35.100 And farm murders spike, farm attacks spike after these incidents.
00:28:41.660 So they're directly linked.
00:28:43.220 But let me give you a statistic.
00:28:46.620 There are, on average, a farm attack a day in South Africa, and a farm murder one per week.
00:28:54.740 It is three times more likely to be killed as a farmer in South Africa than as a policeman.
00:29:00.020 And it's twice as likely to be murdered as a policeman than as an average citizen.
00:29:05.260 So being a farmer is the most dangerous profession in South Africa.
00:29:10.240 And three important Afrikaners went to the White House recently, and they came back with
00:29:14.300 a message from the White House.
00:29:16.260 South Africa, if you want to avoid tariffs, which start August the 1st, and sanctions, which
00:29:22.720 are going to be targeted on individuals in the ANC and EFF and MK, you need to adhere to
00:29:29.480 a number of things.
00:29:30.480 One, farm attacks need to be made a priority crime and something needs to be done about
00:29:35.680 them.
00:29:36.680 Two, black economic empowerment needs to be repealed. 1.00
00:29:42.440 And the 600 American companies operating in South Africa should not be subject to it.
00:29:48.720 Three, expropriation without compensation needs to be repealed and replaced with expropriation,
00:29:54.720 with market compensation.
00:29:57.800 So it's pretty clear what America wants and what the majority of South Africans want, because
00:30:04.100 the South African government, the ANC government, is not speaking on behalf of South Africans.
00:30:09.600 Do you think that's enough?
00:30:10.720 And the reason I'm asking is because, to my mind, yes, if I were threatened with this,
00:30:17.720 I would take that.
00:30:19.480 You'd listen.
00:30:20.480 I would listen.
00:30:21.480 But if we are talking about a government that thinks it's a good idea to talk about expropriation
00:30:28.960 without compensation, it seems to me that their understanding of economics isn't particularly
00:30:33.840 good.
00:30:34.840 How strong is a threat about tariffs to them?
00:30:38.840 Here's the thing that people don't understand.
00:30:40.840 The ANC don't care.
00:30:41.840 Yeah.
00:30:42.840 They don't care.
00:30:43.840 Yeah.
00:30:44.840 They just want to steal.
00:30:45.840 They know they've got four years left.
00:30:46.840 They want to steal as much as they can, as quickly as they can.
00:30:49.840 It's 100 families.
00:30:50.840 They're stealing the country blind.
00:30:52.840 They don't care what happens to the average South African. 1.00
00:30:56.840 And the average South African needs to wake up, stop being so stupid, and realize the ANC 1.00
00:31:01.840 is the enemy, not the friend. 1.00
00:31:03.840 Yeah.
00:31:04.840 And that they're being bribed with social grants.
00:31:07.840 Those 100 families need to be named and shamed.
00:31:11.840 So when it comes to the rhetoric of white genocide, I've heard lots of people talking about it.
00:31:17.840 And there has always been this effort from mainstream media, but also leftist organizations
00:31:24.840 and sides to portray this as a right-wing extremist myth.
00:31:29.840 What's the reality behind it?
00:31:30.840 Except when it comes to Israel and Gaza.
00:31:32.840 So if you look at the United Nations definition of genocide, there are 10 elements.
00:31:37.840 There's classification, organization, persecution, all leading to extermination.
00:31:45.840 There are 10 elements of it.
00:31:47.840 Yeah.
00:31:48.840 And denial is one of them, by the way.
00:31:49.840 Yeah.
00:31:50.840 If you look at those 10 elements, about seven of them are relevant in South Africa.
00:31:55.840 There's certainly economic genocide taking place against whites, colors, and Indians, and certain black tribes.
00:32:01.840 But in terms of lighting the ovens to systematically kill people, that isn't happening. 0.92
00:32:08.840 Yeah.
00:32:09.840 But farmers are targeted.
00:32:11.840 White people are targeted.
00:32:12.840 Indian people of colored extraction are being targeted.
00:32:16.840 The ANC is instituting it slowly and have been doing it for a number of years, but it's coming to a fall.
00:32:24.840 Yeah.
00:32:25.840 And when they spoke about expropriation without compensation,
00:32:28.840 Silver Ramaphosa said, we're unlikely ever to use it.
00:32:32.840 Then why put it in place?
00:32:34.840 Yeah.
00:32:35.840 And I describe it as having a loaded gun in the bedroom on your side dresser.
00:32:39.840 At some point one of the kids running around is going to pick that gun up and pull the trigger.
00:32:44.840 Pardon me for saying this, but his rhetoric seems to me a bit childish. 1.00
00:32:48.840 He's a moron. 1.00
00:32:49.840 Yeah. 1.00
00:32:50.840 He's spineless.
00:32:51.840 Yeah. 1.00
00:32:52.840 He's pathetic. 0.99
00:32:53.840 For example, a very senior policeman in KZN, one of our provinces, came out of the blue 0.99
00:33:00.840 and announced how much corruption there is in the police and that the minister of police
00:33:05.840 is enabling it.
00:33:07.840 Boom.
00:33:08.840 It was like a shock to the system.
00:33:10.840 Okay.
00:33:11.840 People couldn't believe this guy had the courage to front up and say it.
00:33:15.840 Cyril Ramaphosa, what does he do?
00:33:17.840 Announces a commission.
00:33:20.840 Announces. 1.00
00:33:21.840 What a pathetic human being. 1.00
00:33:22.840 Announces a commission. 1.00
00:33:23.840 Now you know what's going to happen.
00:33:24.840 Who's going to be on it?
00:33:25.840 Who's going to be on it?
00:33:26.840 How much time are they going to spend?
00:33:28.840 How much money are they going to spend?
00:33:30.840 And nothing's going to happen to the conclusions of the commission.
00:33:33.840 Yeah.
00:33:34.840 The biggest commission South Africa's had since 1994 was the Zondo commission.
00:33:38.840 Okay.
00:33:39.840 This extraordinary man Zondo spent four years, billions of rand.
00:33:44.840 He interviewed thousands of people and he named and shamed criminals, gangsters in the
00:33:50.840 Zondo commission.
00:33:51.840 What has happened since then?
00:33:53.840 Nothing.
00:33:54.840 Nothing.
00:33:55.840 Yeah.
00:33:56.840 Cyril Ramaphosa believes the way to deal with issues, form a commission and then people will
00:34:00.840 forget about it or people will lose interest in X number of years time.
00:34:04.840 And it works because South Africans are suffering from PTSD. 0.92
00:34:08.840 If you open the newspaper in South Africa, they don't even say 85 murders today.
00:34:13.840 Which is by the way, the number 50 rapes, 85 murders every day, because people are just 0.97
00:34:18.840 exhausted.
00:34:19.840 They're tired.
00:34:20.840 They're PTSD.
00:34:21.840 We're like frogs being boiled in a pot.
00:34:24.840 It's like getting used to it.
00:34:26.840 So you get desensitized.
00:34:27.840 Correct.
00:34:28.840 You desensitize or you just stay in your bubble.
00:34:30.840 So I can't deal with it until something happens to you.
00:34:32.840 You just try and block it out.
00:34:35.840 Because my wife's a New Zealander. 1.00
00:34:37.840 She loves South Africa.
00:34:38.840 She loves Cape Town.
00:34:39.840 Doesn't want to leave.
00:34:40.840 My kids love it.
00:34:41.840 And she says, why don't South Africans go out in the streets and start protesting and
00:34:45.840 march up to Pretoria and throw these ants, these gangsters out of power?
00:34:49.840 Well, the reality is you either put yourself in a bubble and just keep going, because it's
00:34:56.840 a fabulous country, or you leave the country.
00:35:00.840 And I suspect it's not very easy for every Africana to do so.
00:35:07.840 Well, Trump's offered a lifeline, this refugee you can apply as a refugee to go to America.
00:35:12.840 But, you know, they've been there since 1650.
00:35:15.840 People have been there 13, 14 generations.
00:35:17.840 They don't want to leave.
00:35:18.840 We want to fix our country and make it better.
00:35:21.840 And our chance comes in 2029 on a democratic election, municipal elections, where the Democratic
00:35:31.840 Alliance hopefully will win Johannesburg.
00:35:33.840 And that's going to be the big break for the ANC.
00:35:36.840 And then they're going to start unraveling.
00:35:38.840 When are these elections?
00:35:39.840 February 2027.
00:35:40.840 February 2027.
00:35:41.840 Is it?
00:35:42.840 Municipals?
00:35:43.840 Yes.
00:35:44.840 Nationals in 2029.
00:35:45.840 We have to survive till then.
00:35:46.840 You know, I landed from London this morning.
00:35:49.840 And a number of people came up and said, Rob, lovely to meet you.
00:35:53.840 Thanks for what you're doing.
00:35:54.840 Thanks for giving us a voice.
00:35:56.840 Two different people.
00:35:57.840 I said, oh, do you live in Cape Town?
00:35:59.840 No, we're going to America.
00:36:01.840 On holiday?
00:36:02.840 No, we're leaving.
00:36:03.840 Immigrating. 0.93
00:36:04.840 Two different families this morning.
00:36:06.840 Yeah.
00:36:07.840 So it's a route.
00:36:08.840 And it's not just white families leaving.
00:36:11.840 A lot of colored Indian black families too.
00:36:13.840 Any educated person in South Africa has to be looking at the country and going, this
00:36:19.840 is trending in the wrong direction.
00:36:21.840 It's unsustainable.
00:36:22.840 To what extent do you think that changing the country is an issue of political will?
00:36:27.840 Because I'm in political commentary, let's say.
00:36:31.840 And I'm of the opinion that most issues are issues of political will.
00:36:35.840 We don't have to constantly change philosophical worldviews and start by writing books or reading
00:36:42.840 fringe literature that was forgotten for a reason.
00:36:45.840 I think to a large extent it's an issue of political will.
00:36:48.840 Do you disagree with this?
00:36:49.840 How would this play out in South Africa?
00:36:53.840 So here are the main political parties.
00:36:56.840 The ANC at 40%.
00:36:58.840 The Democratic Alliance at 21%.
00:37:02.840 And then two spin-off parties from the ANC.
00:37:06.840 MK, which is Jacob Zuma returning.
00:37:11.840 It's like the Zuma family dynasty. 0.87
00:37:13.840 And they're at 15%.
00:37:15.840 And then the monsters of the economic freedom fighters, Julius Malema, at 8%, 9%.
00:37:21.840 But if you tally those up, if you take ANC, MK, and EFF, you're over 50% of people voting
00:37:30.840 for racist and socialist parties that will destroy our economy. 1.00
00:37:36.840 So you have to think to yourself, you know, is the voting population that stupid, that evil 1.00
00:37:46.840 is to want, do they not understand what's happening? 1.00
00:37:51.840 And the only thing where political will is coming through is at the service delivery level.
00:37:57.840 I know this sounds basic.
00:37:59.840 But if you don't get water, you don't get electricity, your roads aren't fixed and your kids aren't
00:38:04.840 being educated, at some point the penny drops and you realize this isn't working.
00:38:10.840 Maybe we need a melee. 0.88
00:38:13.840 I think we definitely need a melee.
00:38:16.840 Everyone needs a melee. 0.99
00:38:18.840 Every country needs a melee.
00:38:21.840 Perhaps my pessimistic side comes into it here.
00:38:25.840 You're an optimist though.
00:38:26.840 I am.
00:38:27.840 But I'm trying to think of the issue from multiple sides.
00:38:30.840 Because I want to be a realist also.
00:38:33.840 There are lots of people who are deprived of these goods or access of these goods in countries
00:38:42.840 that have communist propaganda.
00:38:45.840 Correct.
00:38:46.840 And it looks like they carry on with what goes on.
00:38:50.840 Or they are afraid to support alternatives.
00:38:54.840 And you have described South Africa as a country that has suffered from communist propaganda for decades.
00:39:03.840 Which is also something that has led to state capture.
00:39:07.840 And to what extent is the culture ready to understand this?
00:39:12.840 And not only to understand it, but also see an alternative that is realistic.
00:39:17.840 So I've talked about the service delivery level.
00:39:20.840 Yeah.
00:39:21.840 Even people in Johannesburg that have been supporting the ANC are thinking this isn't working.
00:39:24.840 Nothing is working.
00:39:25.840 Yeah.
00:39:26.840 The ANC is at fault.
00:39:27.840 The penny is starting to drop.
00:39:29.840 The democratic system is moving with glacial speed in the right direction.
00:39:34.840 Okay.
00:39:35.840 Good. 0.95
00:39:36.840 But after 30 years in power, 30 years in power, the black majority, picking on the white-colored 1.00
00:39:46.840 Indian minority, okay? 0.93
00:39:47.840 Unusual.
00:39:48.840 It's usually the other way around.
00:39:51.840 Are using the excuse so that they're not blamed that it's apartheid whiteness that's holding 0.83
00:40:00.840 them back.
00:40:01.840 I don't think that the average voter and the average person in the street actually believes
00:40:07.840 that anymore.
00:40:08.840 That's true.
00:40:09.840 You've had a black majority in power for 30 years and now, only now, do you blame apartheid,
00:40:15.840 colonialism and whiteness. 1.00
00:40:17.840 I mean, what crap is that? 1.00
00:40:19.840 I was watching a video about South Africa and it was a leftist from South Africa talking. 0.99
00:40:26.840 And the very language they used was language I would hear to university.
00:40:32.840 And I was an academic and there were people talking like that.
00:40:35.840 Yeah.
00:40:36.840 So, instantly I asked myself, is this person educated in Western universities?
00:40:42.840 And where has that vocabulary and this phraseology come from?
00:40:49.840 Are they speaking to an audience outside the country as opposed to the everyday person?
00:40:55.840 Yes, they are.
00:40:56.840 South Africans tend not to be ideological.
00:40:59.840 88% of South Africans are Christian.
00:41:02.840 Yeah.
00:41:03.840 Or Christian derivative. 0.67
00:41:04.840 Yeah.
00:41:05.840 88%.
00:41:06.840 And are very conservative.
00:41:07.840 Yeah.
00:41:08.840 And are church going.
00:41:09.840 And are slow moving.
00:41:10.840 There's this expression called a go-go.
00:41:12.840 A go-go is a grandmother who was born under apartheid, saw the ANC as their liberation and
00:41:20.840 in their 50s, 60s, 70s now, still voting for the ANC.
00:41:24.840 And there's this belief that once the go-go's realize the ANC is actually doing a worse job
00:41:32.840 for them under apartheid, only then will the tide shift against them.
00:41:37.840 And it's happening now.
00:41:38.840 Yeah.
00:41:39.840 We've got four more years to sit it out. 0.82
00:41:41.840 So these lunatic leftists in South Africa that are promoting net zero to a country that's 0.92
00:41:47.840 got tons of coal, that are promoting CRT, that are promoting all these evil cultural Marxist 0.76
00:41:54.840 initiatives, they're not getting traction other than in the universities, as you'd expect.
00:42:01.840 Yeah.
00:42:02.840 So most South Africans are capitalists. 0.93
00:42:05.840 If you go to the townships and the Soweto's and the Alexander's, you know, where the traditionally
00:42:12.840 black areas where the apartheid separated whites and blacks, and these are the black areas,
00:42:17.840 they've become thriving economic metropolises.
00:42:20.840 I mean, you don't have big glass buildings yet, but you've got fantastic entrepreneurs,
00:42:25.840 business people, and we need them to vote.
00:42:29.840 Because currently, they are capitalists to the extreme.
00:42:34.840 Yeah.
00:42:35.840 Communism has no sway in South Africa.
00:42:37.840 South Africans will never be truly communists.
00:42:40.840 It's this nonsense concept that's been peddled that doesn't have traction, and shouldn't,
00:42:45.840 and won't.
00:42:46.840 I actually really like what you're saying, because it seems to falsify a stereotype I may
00:42:52.840 have had in my mind.
00:42:53.840 Because the question would be if we do think that South Africa needs a melee, and someone
00:43:02.840 to implement freer market policies.
00:43:05.840 Or perhaps it's not going to be the extreme ideological free market of some philosopher's
00:43:11.840 imagination.
00:43:12.840 We're pretty free market in South Africa.
00:43:14.840 Okay.
00:43:15.840 We're pretty capitalist.
00:43:16.840 Because I was going to ask that, you know, how does, to what extent is there a cultural
00:43:22.840 background that can support free market institutions?
00:43:25.840 Very strong.
00:43:26.840 It's very strong.
00:43:27.840 Like, you know, keeping promises, contracts, enforcing contracts, honoring your...
00:43:31.840 It's all there.
00:43:32.840 Okay.
00:43:33.840 It's being weakened, diminished, undermined.
00:43:35.840 We're massively over-regulated.
00:43:36.840 Yes.
00:43:37.840 We have a first world over-regulated economy when we should be trying to accelerate economic
00:43:42.840 growth, make it easier for people to start businesses and be successful.
00:43:46.840 Yeah.
00:43:47.840 You know, too many lawyers, too many regulators, too many politicians.
00:43:50.840 Just like New Zealand and Australia. 0.74
00:43:52.840 Yes.
00:43:53.840 You know, it makes you sick. 0.98
00:43:54.840 So we need a Malay to dere... 1.00
00:43:56.840 We need a department, a DOGE, Department of Deregulation, desperately.
00:44:00.840 Yeah.
00:44:01.840 And it cut costs.
00:44:02.840 Do you know we have 34, 32 cabinet ministers?
00:44:08.840 32.
00:44:09.840 Yeah.
00:44:10.840 That's a lot.
00:44:11.840 And we have, I think, 34, 35 deputy ministers.
00:44:14.840 It's a joke.
00:44:16.840 We have more generals per capita than any other military in the world.
00:44:21.840 It's just, it's jobs for friends.
00:44:24.840 Yes.
00:44:25.840 Right.
00:44:26.840 So it seems to me that the Trump president, the second Trump presidency, does exert a kind
00:44:33.840 of pressure to South Africa's government at the moment, which may be positive.
00:44:41.840 What's plan B for South Africa if the Democrats win the 2028 election?
00:44:48.840 And rather than someone like J.D. Vance or someone like...
00:44:52.840 Heaven help us.
00:44:54.840 Heaven help the world.
00:44:56.840 Yeah.
00:44:57.840 Someone else.
00:44:58.840 And loses to someone like AOC or Gavin Newsom.
00:45:02.840 We're over.
00:45:03.840 We're over.
00:45:04.840 What's next for South Africa?
00:45:05.840 What's planned?
00:45:06.840 I'm moving to Argentina.
00:45:07.840 Okay.
00:45:08.840 Okay.
00:45:09.840 What a nightmare.
00:45:10.840 Don't, don't, that'll keep me up at night.
00:45:12.840 So what's happening right now is tariffs hit South Africa August 1st of 30%.
00:45:19.840 Yeah.
00:45:20.840 Okay.
00:45:21.840 That's going to demolish our, we were hoping for four months ago, our finance minister had
00:45:27.840 a budget of 1.5% economic growth.
00:45:29.840 He said two more budgets, both being pushed back by the Democratic Alliance.
00:45:33.840 He's under 1%.
00:45:34.840 The minute tariffs hit, we're going to be down to almost zero.
00:45:38.840 We may even get 40% because he's saying 30% on South Africa and 10% on BRICS countries.
00:45:43.840 So it could be 40%.
00:45:44.840 Yeah.
00:45:45.840 And that's bye-bye to our textile industry, our, you know, fruit, meat, wheat, car industry.
00:45:53.840 I mean, very, very worrying.
00:45:55.840 But what's more interesting is Congressman Ronnie Jackson of Texas is putting a bill into Congress
00:46:01.840 now, it's just past the committee vote, where he, where America plans to sanction using SDN list,
00:46:10.840 acid freezes, Magnitsky Act, individuals in the ANC, and other proponents of anti-Americanism,
00:46:17.840 anti-Semitism, hate speech, and kleptocracy, and gangsters, not just in the ANC, but the MK and EFF
00:46:25.840 and others in South Africa.
00:46:28.840 Now they don't know what's going to hit them.
00:46:30.840 I mean, that is not, you know, if you wire money from your bank to another bank, and
00:46:35.840 there's an American-linked intermediary bank, your money's frozen.
00:46:39.840 They can't, they can't fly to Western countries on Western flights.
00:46:43.840 Bring it on.
00:46:44.840 So I have three last questions.
00:46:46.840 And one is, what do farmers do in the meantime?
00:46:50.840 Because if you may be, you are saying, and to be fair, this is what to a degree you can say.
00:46:59.840 That change will come towards 2029.
00:47:04.840 2029.
00:47:05.840 In the meantime, if there is one farm murder per week, and I'm a farmer, what should I think?
00:47:13.840 How do I guard myself?
00:47:14.840 How do I minimize the, how do I protect myself better?
00:47:18.840 How do I minimize the chances of getting killed?
00:47:23.840 Of survival.
00:47:24.840 Of survival.
00:47:25.840 Yeah.
00:47:26.840 It's all about survival.
00:47:27.840 So farmers are isolated with load shedding, which is when you don't have electricity, alarm
00:47:32.840 systems go down.
00:47:33.840 The police and army are not incentivized to protect farmers.
00:47:36.840 Yeah.
00:47:37.840 Because they're captured by the ANC.
00:47:40.840 And the ANC say, oh, this is a very violent country.
00:47:43.840 Our farm attacks are nothing special.
00:47:45.840 Not truce or Roma poser. 0.97
00:47:47.840 And it's, Trump made it very clear when he said dim the lights and showed that video in 0.96
00:47:52.840 front of Cyril, embarrassing Cyril and his pathetic entourage in the White House. 0.96
00:47:58.840 Farmers have to survive. 0.96
00:47:59.840 I think the farm community in South Africa has gone from 120,000 to 30,000 commercial farmers.
00:48:06.840 So farmers have left in droves.
00:48:09.840 And it's not just white farmers being attacked.
00:48:11.840 Black farmers too.
00:48:12.840 Yeah. 0.99
00:48:13.840 You know, it's horrific.
00:48:14.840 And people say, yeah, but it's not politically motivated.
00:48:17.840 Well, maybe a lot of it's economic and they're isolated and that's where the money is.
00:48:22.840 But the fact that so many of them are raped, tortured and murdered in the most horrific way,
00:48:28.840 and these things spike after Malema and his crowd are doing their kill the Boer speeches,
00:48:33.840 means there is a political dimension to it.
00:48:36.840 So farmers have to survive.
00:48:38.840 Yeah.
00:48:39.840 You know, South Africans, every five years when the edge of collapse and we seem to come through,
00:48:44.840 it's still a great place to visit.
00:48:46.840 Yes.
00:48:47.840 Okay.
00:48:48.840 I'll definitely ask you afterwards where to visit.
00:48:51.840 Cape Town.
00:48:52.840 Start in Cape Town.
00:48:53.840 Okay, great.
00:48:54.840 So here is my next question and I would really like if you could expand on it a bit and tell
00:49:01.840 us what you think.
00:49:03.840 What does the case of South Africa, if South Africa's case right now is a case study, what
00:49:09.840 does it have to teach other Western nations about what not to do, what to take seriously,
00:49:16.840 and what don't they take seriously, and what should they be definitely focused on to not
00:49:23.840 end up in such a situation?
00:49:25.840 Firstly, don't just assume that if the country is a democracy, everything is okay.
00:49:31.840 You can still have deep malevolence infiltrating democracy at all levels, and this element of
00:49:37.840 state and democracy and judiciary capture is real.
00:49:41.840 You know, there are real democracies and fake democracies.
00:49:45.840 Zimbabwe pretends it's a democracy, but you know the result every year.
00:49:49.840 Yeah.
00:49:50.840 So in South Africa, you have a malevolent organization and kleptocratic organization that has infiltrated 0.65
00:49:57.840 every level of democracy and is picking on the minorities. 0.95
00:50:03.840 Trump has stood up.
00:50:04.840 The only leader has stood up and said, I'm not allowing this to happen.
00:50:08.840 I'm going to do something about it.
00:50:09.840 Let's take Britain where I am right now.
00:50:11.840 I have a friend in the House of Lords who's a crossbencher. 0.88
00:50:16.840 Now to me, crossbencher now means wanker, if I'm allowed to swear on your show.
00:50:22.840 And he said to me, I said, why aren't you doing something about it? 0.55
00:50:24.840 Why aren't you guys standing up and calling out what's going on in South Africa?
00:50:28.840 Just read the Zondo Commission and say, this isn't right.
00:50:32.840 And he goes, we believe in soft diplomacy.
00:50:35.840 Yeah. 0.98
00:50:36.840 Soft diplomacy is a concept for weaklings and is a concept for losers. 0.99
00:50:43.840 Just because you're too scared to say boo to a black leader in South Africa means they laugh in your face. 1.00
00:50:52.840 And to my friend who's in the House of Lords, grow some cojones and tell it like it is, please, on behalf of all your friends in South Africa. 0.98
00:51:03.840 The issue with democracy that I'm really worried about, especially with fake democracies, because it seems to me that right now there are lots of people in Western democracies who think that all of them can live like oligarchs. 0.94
00:51:20.840 Or all of them can live like aristocrats.
00:51:23.840 And they treat the state as a sort of mechanism that would allow them to do this.
00:51:28.840 Which has happened in South Africa.
00:51:29.840 Which reinforces the philosophy of looting and over-regulation and excessive intervention in the economy, which ends up creating an economic meltdown and disaster.
00:51:44.840 Correct.
00:51:45.840 100% right.
00:51:46.840 And also cultural one.
00:51:47.840 Just because something is a democracy doesn't mean it's good and it's okay and you don't have to look at it and you can look the other way.
00:51:54.840 You know, everyone like Mandela legacy, it's a democracy.
00:51:57.840 South Africa is solved. 0.73
00:51:58.840 Let's go and find another problem to solve.
00:52:01.840 Not the case.
00:52:02.840 Look at our country now.
00:52:03.840 The way I tell people is monarchy, oligarchy and democracy is an answer to the question how many people make decisions.
00:52:11.840 Exactly.
00:52:12.840 You still have to make the right decision.
00:52:13.840 Exactly.
00:52:14.840 Any decision making.
00:52:15.840 I mean, South Africa, I hate to say it, is desperate for a Malay, is desperate for a benevolent dictator. 0.99
00:52:21.840 Desperate.
00:52:22.840 We're not going to fix it unless we get there.
00:52:25.840 And when it comes to this question as a sub-question, do you think that Western countries right now, like England and other, like Germany, France, they are afraid to assert a sort of European identity, let's say.
00:52:50.840 Not European, pan-European as opposed to, you know, the regional one.
00:52:56.840 But do you think that they think like mere economic zones and not economy of the good type?
00:53:03.840 Correct.
00:53:04.840 And that this creates a sort of multicultural failure. 0.96
00:53:08.840 South Africa laughs.
00:53:10.840 You can't rule by saying soft diplomacy is an end in itself.
00:53:14.840 Correct.
00:53:15.840 South Africa laughs at Europe.
00:53:17.840 I mean, Europe and America are South Africa's biggest trading partners.
00:53:21.840 There are stronger cultural, economic, and other links between America and Europe and South Africa than ANC's favourite brothers and comrades in Russia, China, North Korea, and Iran.
00:53:32.840 Yeah.
00:53:33.840 Big issue.
00:53:34.840 Big issue.
00:53:35.840 So, but the West doesn't use its power.
00:53:37.840 It doesn't flex its muscles.
00:53:39.840 Only Donald Trump has done it. 0.98
00:53:41.840 You know, Western Europe is pathetically weak and soft diplomacy when it comes to South Africa doesn't work. 0.99
00:53:47.840 They laugh at Europe. 0.97
00:53:48.840 And do you think that this is, to a very large extent, self-imposed, which has to do with communist subversion, which manifested initially with anti-economic, anti-capitalism, and then with all the crazy DEI stuff, anti-Western, anti-white, anti-whatever.
00:54:07.840 Yeah. 0.85
00:54:08.840 And ashamed and a bit afraid of being white. 1.00
00:54:11.840 We can't tell these black African countries that they're pathetic losers because we would be lording over them. 1.00
00:54:17.840 It's true. 1.00
00:54:18.840 Most of them are pathetic losers. 1.00
00:54:20.840 And I want to end with this question with a positive note. 1.00
00:54:25.840 What is your vision for South Africa?
00:54:27.840 If you were to get power and do good, what would you want South Africa to become like?
00:54:38.840 So what do you think South Africa can become like?
00:54:40.840 I want South Africa.
00:54:41.840 I'm going to give you a gift now.
00:54:42.840 Yes.
00:54:43.840 I want South Africa to become like the Springbok rugby team.
00:54:45.840 Okay?
00:54:46.840 Yeah.
00:54:47.840 We lost two Rugby World Cups and the reason being-
00:54:50.840 Thank you very much.
00:54:51.840 The reason being is because thanks to our incredible rugby management team, a man called Rassi Erasmus
00:54:57.840 and his team, he has brought extraordinary people of all colours and races and creeds into the
00:55:05.840 Springbok rugby team and we are world beaters.
00:55:08.840 Our country can be the same, but we need to be merit-based and we need to be positive, work
00:55:15.840 together, work together and make stuff happen.
00:55:19.840 It can be done.
00:55:20.840 Thank you very much.
00:55:21.840 Mr. Ersov, it has been a pleasure interviewing you.
00:55:24.840 Thank you very much.
00:55:25.840 It's Delios, what a great pleasure.
00:55:26.840 Thanks, buddy.
00:55:27.840 Thank you.
00:55:28.840 Thank you.
00:55:29.840 Thank you.