Ben Habib joins me to talk about Brexit, Keir Starmer's apparent turn towards the right, and why he decided to leave the Reform Party. We also talk about why he joined the pro-EU 'No Deal' campaign.
00:08:34.200So, you know, one of the bizarre things in my mind is that economics shouldn't be an ideological.
00:08:42.400We and I had a discussion about the word ideological.
00:08:44.780But economics shouldn't be driven by ideology.
00:08:47.860Economics, I think, should be driven by a pragmatic recognition of where the country is at any particular point in time.
00:08:55.340And you adjust your economic policy accordingly.
00:08:58.640So, for example, if we were at war against, you know, if we're in a world war, for example,
00:09:04.680I would endorse completely very high tax rates and, you know, demands made on private enterprise and individuals because we're at war.
00:09:13.080And we do nevertheless have the highest tax burdens as a proportion of GDP since World War II.
00:09:25.280And we also, as it happens, have the highest debt burden as a percentage of GDP since World War II.
00:09:33.180And the policies which got us to this position are the policies which need changing if we want to reduce the tax burden and reduce the debt burden.
00:09:43.760But instead of changing direction, the policies that got us to the position are the ones that the establishment continue to wish to foist on us.
00:09:53.740And Liz Truss, it may have been a slightly ham-fisted attempt at changing the direction of travel.
00:10:00.360But she recognized she had to change the way the country was governed economically because we were being overtaxed.
00:10:06.400The state was spending too much money and we needed to row back the state, row back spending and cut taxes.
00:10:12.460And, of course, the political organisms which run the United Kingdom, many of which are not democratically accountable, including notably the Bank of England, again, you know.
00:10:56.280But Liz Truss's idea on the economy was basically the right one.
00:11:01.040Cut taxes, reduce spending and liberate the private sector.
00:11:04.300It really drives me crazy because just from anyone who had the best interest of the United Kingdom in mind, to have essentially a very close competitor, English-speaking first world country with half our tax rate that has an open economy connected to the United Kingdom.
00:11:23.060I mean, like I said, I'm not an economist.
00:11:50.560As a year ago, AstraZeneca, instead of developing a new facility in the United Kingdom, decided that they were going to go to Republic of Ireland and they cited the tax rate.
00:12:00.380And of course, they're not wed to any particular country.
00:12:04.640They'll go to the country which has the least regulations and the lowest tax rate so they can make the most profit.
00:12:10.280It's the same with all of the Silicon Valley tech giants.
00:12:13.580Every single one of them has their headquarters in Ireland.
00:12:16.760And so any interface anyone in Britain has on a professional level with any of the major internet services, the social media giants, they're all in Ireland.
00:12:42.340And I mean, Rishi Sunak, you may have followed, tied us or was trying to tie us into a minimum 15% corporation tax rate agreed with the OECD country.
00:12:57.340Why would a nation state whose one economic tool, fiscal policy, is so critical in the way that you run that nation state, why would it give up a fiscal tool in the pursuit of some kind of harmony with its neighbours?
00:13:10.720Global trade is not a kumbaya experience.
00:13:17.920It's meant to be ruthless for the benefit of the British people.
00:13:20.560And so we should keep all our armoury, if you like, economic armoury, at our disposal in the pursuit of getting richer as a country.
00:13:29.840And this is, I mean, you talked about Brexit.
00:13:33.000Brexit was a cry from the British people, not just to leave the EU.
00:13:37.420It was a cry from the British people to stop governing the country through global liberal principles, economic, cultural and constitutional.
00:13:48.640And it was a cry of the British people to recognise we are the United Kingdom.
00:13:53.100Can you please start putting British interests first?
00:13:58.160And we want to be governed by people in this country.
00:14:01.260We want to be able to hold them accountable.
00:14:03.320We want to be able to boot them out when they get it wrong.
00:14:05.540And we want those monkeys to do what's best for us.
00:14:09.820Honestly, the reason I've got this map of the referendum up is, I mean, I agree with you, but I think it's a very English phenomenon as well.
00:14:19.560The left behind parts of England, in particular, are the most Brexiteery places for a reason.
00:14:25.060But even then, England and Wales, generally, I think it was kind of almost spiritual.
00:14:29.500Like we shouldn't be governed by someone on the continent.
00:14:36.640And it's not just the EU that's governing us, as I'm sure you're better aware than I am.
00:14:42.440You know, we have multiple global institutions and international treaties, as well as domestic bodies, which neuter our ability to govern ourselves as a democracy.
00:14:51.500And these are the things that we need to be fighting against tooth and nail.
00:14:55.740This is where Blair was so evil because he set this train in motion in many ways.
00:15:03.840But the hollowing out of our democracy, the pursuit of international treaties, the abrogation of local governance in favor of international institutions, all of that started with Blair in the way that, you know, we're now, you know, the speed at which we're now.
00:15:24.540So we're kind of enmeshed in this strange sort of spider silk web of quangocracies.
00:15:39.980And it's going to require legislation to remove, clearly.
00:15:42.640And and so they were never going to let Brexit happen.
00:15:45.520And that's why I think and that's why I think it's very important to recognize we didn't get Brexit because only if we got Brexit, which means genuinely cutting our ties with the European Union from a regulatory perspective, genuinely removing their laws and their ability to influence our laws.
00:16:06.580Because only then would we be free to push back against this global liberal order and indeed the quangocracies, because you'd pull the rug out from all from under the feet of all these people.
00:16:18.700And some people say, oh, Ben, that's so risky.
00:16:21.980We would have ended up in a trade war with the EU.
00:16:24.560Well, my response to that is, well, let's have the trade war with the EU.
00:17:01.000You know, what Trump has said, he's going to ditch net zero, which is highly expensive for energy and for businesses and for families and households and everything else.
00:17:07.840He's going to deregulate and he's going to cut taxes.
00:17:25.360It will leave the European Union and it will go to the States because it will find a much pleasanter experience.
00:17:31.960And we're going to have such a good example in another English speaking country that we're very close to politically, where they're doing the exact right thing for themselves and we're doing the exact wrong thing for ourselves.
00:18:03.040And everything becomes more difficult.
00:18:04.100And so everything it looks like doom and gloom on the horizon just because they're not prepared to release the gentle hold they have on us, slowly pulling us back into the loam until we just dissolve into nothingness.
00:18:16.920And it's like, no, I just don't want that.
00:18:18.400And they don't seem to understand the benefits that encouraging your own population to actually go out and get something done does.
00:18:25.020I mean, this is this would be steel sharpening steel.
00:18:27.600You know, OK, we become more competitive.
00:18:40.000Competition is a fundamental good that for some reason, the international liberal order is just completely against, which you would think that's weird for liberals.
00:18:47.520They were usually very pro competition.
00:18:49.000I remember when Sunak was at a conference.
00:18:52.340I can't remember if it was a G7 or G20 or something.
00:18:55.860He tweeted, obviously in a moment, you've euphoric collegiate emotion towards his fellow world leaders.
00:19:04.660As he tweeted saying, we must not compete with our friends and neighbors.
00:19:24.180You know, once you've got a fair and established set of rules that everyone agrees to, competition becomes fun because now everyone knows no one's going to get screwed, you know, and they're going to do their best and someone's going to come out on top.
00:21:08.900The deal that Boris Johnson, he did two deals with the European Union.
00:21:12.500The first was the withdrawal agreement.
00:21:14.520And in the withdrawal agreement, he left Northern Ireland behind.
00:21:17.460It's something I've been fighting very hard.
00:21:20.380And the effect of leaving Northern Ireland behind is not just Northern Ireland being seriously compromised.
00:21:26.180It's that it also created a grappling hook, a regulatory grappling hook into the flesh of the rest of the United Kingdom, into Great Britain, basically.
00:21:36.280And so we are being tugged through the Northern Ireland protocol towards the EU.
00:21:42.400And Starmer is using it to justify getting closer to the EU on phytosanitary and sanitary conditions and so on.
00:21:49.560He will neuter our ability to chart an independent economic path using the protocol as his excuse.
00:22:00.720And that's partly why the protocol was designed the way it was designed.
00:22:04.360So even if you don't really care about Northern Ireland, I happen to care a lot about Northern Ireland.
00:22:10.280But even if you don't, even if you care really only about Great Britain, you still need to get rid of the Northern Ireland protocol because it's a grappling hook into Great Britain.
00:22:20.500And then the second deal that Boris Johnson did, the Trade and Cooperation Agreement, which came a year later, required us, still requires this country to align with state aid laws in the European Union, such as they were on 31st December 2020.
00:22:36.980Competition laws, employment laws and environmental laws.
00:22:41.780And of course, under environmental laws, one of the passing shots of Theresa May was to embed net zero on our statute books.
00:22:50.580And the way the environmental alignment with the EU is framed in this new treaty is that we're not allowed to regress from any domestic environmental laws, even if those domestic laws have future effect.
00:23:05.760And of course, net zero is all about getting to net zero by 2050.
00:23:08.440And so it's a future effect. Are you with me?
00:23:13.380I hate it. I'm getting angry and trying to contain my phrase.
00:23:16.760So under the Trade and Cooperation Agreement, we are not allowed to ditch net zero.
00:23:23.360People don't realise that it's not in the gift of our government any longer, whether or not we get rid of this incredibly self-harming policy.
00:23:31.680It's signed into international treaty.
00:23:34.040And the other things he signed us up into, which I find horrifying, is a continued commitment to the European Convention of Human Rights.
00:23:43.340Now, the ECHR is independent of the European Union.
00:23:47.320But in the trade deal that we did with the EU, we committed to staying in it.
00:23:51.700So if we want to leave the ECHR, which is a reform UK policy, which is something Robert Jenrick also said he wanted to do, we would have to terminate the Trade and Cooperation Agreement.
00:24:51.200Enjoy being immiserated by the Republic of Ireland through these unfair, well, not even unfair, but just through us holding you back competitively.
00:24:59.160And then for the rest of the UK, it's like, right, you're not going to get the thing you voted for because of the agreement that we signed, which we could have been much more aggressive upon.
00:25:08.300We should have been much more aggressive about it.
00:25:10.740I mean, I'll let you into a little, it's not really a confidence anymore, but I'm going to let you into this.
00:25:15.760One of the arch negotiators of the trade and cooperation agreement didn't know that he'd bound us into a non-regression obligation on net zero.
00:25:26.160And I was challenged by a peer in the House of Lords, as opposed to a piss head, but a peer, if you get the, that was a joke, on whether or not I was right.
00:25:39.040But because one of the architects of the trade and cooperation agreement had contradicted me.
00:25:43.860So I took a photograph of the provisions in the TCA, sent it across to this, this peer.
00:25:50.860And I got a text back a few days later, oh yeah, oh yes, no, yeah, we are, we are committed to non-regression.
00:25:57.620So even one of the architects of the agreement didn't know what the agreement said.
00:26:08.280And I'll just quickly rattle through what else is in the agreement, very quickly.
00:26:11.840So through that agreement, we're also committed to funding European Union military development, the European Defence Fund.
00:26:20.680So that is for the creation and implementation of European hardware and software, military hardware and software on an interoperable basis.
00:26:31.280We, the United Kingdom, are funding the creation of a European Defence Union.
00:26:36.680And Starmer, I'm sure, wants to take us into that EDU.
00:26:40.080And it's not like NATO, where it's lots of different independent sovereign states coming together and cooperating.
00:26:47.140The European Defence Union will be under Brussels.
00:26:49.520We will be giving up our independent defence capability.
00:26:54.980Now, Boris Johnson didn't sign us up into that precisely, but he signed us up on a path towards that.
00:27:01.180He also signed us up into the European arrest warrant.
00:27:04.580So a court in Romania, for example, could issue an arrest warrant for a British citizen.
00:27:10.780And there's very little a British court could do to protect that British citizen.
00:27:14.700Now, you just think about that for a moment.
00:27:16.760How in any shape or form is that Brexit?
00:27:23.280I'm trying to think of a way to be charitable about this.
00:27:26.360But I just, I didn't follow Brexit very closely after the referendum and after the Boris government.
00:27:35.460Because the general attitude from the mainstream was, okay, well, we've kind of lost on that and so we'll capitulate.
00:27:41.240And so I assume, well, it can't be too bad.
00:27:43.820And I've got other things I need to look into.
00:27:45.700I've got other things I'm more interested in studying.
00:27:47.640And now I'm glad I didn't because I would have been raging about this every day of my life.
00:27:51.580Like this is obviously, essentially a way to tacitly and slowly, by degree, scupper the entire project.
00:27:59.640Absolutely. And, you know, we say quite rightly that the United Kingdom doesn't really have a written constitution.
00:28:05.180Well, I would say two of the most important constitutional documents in the UK now are international treaties over which we, the British people, have no control.
00:28:14.200The two treaties Boris Johnson signed, because they constitutionally determine, they determine our constitutional framework in so many areas.
00:28:31.300We can't, our government can't buy British first.
00:28:34.460In areas of strategic military importance, there is a carve out.
00:28:38.720But if our government wants to go to tender on something that isn't of strategic importance, we're obliged to tender with European Union member state firms on an equal basis.
00:28:51.220It was all about buying British first.
00:28:53.760And so I'll just say this one last thing on Brexit.
00:28:56.160If we got Brexit, if we genuinely became independent of the European Union, we would set the country on a path that you and I both wish to set it on.
00:29:07.820And it's like, you know, that game, is it called Django or something, you know, where you...
00:29:15.840Django, where you pull out a bit of, you know, if we pulled out the trade and cooperation agreement and the withdrawal agreement, the whole thing would come crashing down and we'd become independent.
00:29:24.740We'd be forced to become independent overnight.
00:29:27.300And that's why Brexit was so critical.
00:29:29.480And it's so sad that we didn't get it.
00:29:31.120And if we just had a government that actually wanted this, because I think the main issue is that none of our politicians really wanted this to happen.
00:29:39.540Even those ones who campaign on Brexit, you, I mean, like the Michael Goves, the Boris Johnsons, you can tell this isn't really in their DNA.
00:29:46.380They're actually quite liberal internationalists themselves.
00:29:49.240And they would rather go on as they have done up until this point.
00:29:52.580And it would require a complete change of mindset from a new government that came in that was quite aggressive and bearish on this.
00:29:59.960It's like, no, we're here to fight, actually.
00:30:03.300We're here to fight for a future that is a possible future but is not being realized because of the kind of torpor that has come across the country.
00:30:10.980But I think that would wake everything up.
00:30:32.660And, you know, it's a tragedy that we haven't taken advantage of it because, you know, we all should know, or I think we all know in our heart of hearts, that regulations made in Brussels are not made for the benefit of the United Kingdom.
00:32:55.540I say we're being seriously economically challenged.
00:32:59.300Well, we've covered this many times on the podcast.
00:33:01.160And on the plus side, the narrative that mass immigration provides economic growth has been resoundingly disproven by the lack of economic growth that has coincided with the mass immigration.
00:33:13.080We are about to head into a recession.
00:33:16.360Britain's economic growth has been completely flat for all this time.
00:33:19.500And we're now starting to get the bill.
00:33:21.080We're starting to find out that we paid nearly 6 million pounds on asylum seekers.
00:33:25.340And notice there's a nice sleight of hand that's always played as well.
00:33:30.080We can maybe get rid of the asylum seekers.
00:33:32.660It's like, okay, but the million and a half people who are let in are not asylum seekers.
00:33:36.760They're just people who are looking for economic opportunity.
00:33:39.620And if you're looking for economic opportunity, why come to Britain?
00:35:33.300So, our public services are all burdened.
00:35:36.000Our housing stock, which we're not building enough of, or we're certainly not even able to repurpose that which we've got because of net zero and other onus obligations, is incapable of dealing with the number of people in the country.
00:36:28.640And there are going to be people who will say, well, the services have collapsed, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:36:34.740It's like, look, okay, even if that is all true, we can't continue on like this, right?
00:36:41.280So, even if they haven't collapsed right now, on the current trajectory we are on, they're going to collapse.
00:36:48.000We're going to arrive at a point where the NHS, I mean, there are 7.5 million people on the NHS waiting list.
00:36:53.740And that went down by 200,000 and that was heralded as a great victory.
00:36:57.240It's like, oh, so there are only 7.3 million.
00:36:59.740And, I mean, the budget, so Rachel Reeves kept identifying the 22 billion so-called black hole for her reason to do all the tax rises.
00:37:11.640The budget that she announced actually is 45 billion pounds in tax rises and another 32 billion of borrowing on top of that.
00:37:21.240So, she's basically going to spend 77 billion pounds a year extra.
00:37:28.400And the burden of all that taxation is already showing its effect on the economy when all the indicators now in the UK economy are pointing towards recession.
00:37:39.160And if we end up in recession, she won't get the 45 billion pounds in tax revenue she's expecting.
00:37:44.440But her spending will still stay the same, which means our borrowing is going to go through the roof.
00:53:03.880But, yeah, so you put out this very measured and reasonable statement, and I think it was about 12 minutes long, the video, so it's a very calm, reasonable explanation of what you felt had gone wrong with not just the party, but more the direction of travel.
00:53:21.940The direction towards the center of politics moving towards the left of politics, and why this, you didn't think, actually satisfied the desires of the electorate.
00:53:33.440And I'm of the opinion that basically it's a mistake for the Reform Party to try and move into an already very crowded sort of center-left field.
00:53:41.780And you got quite an inappropriate backlash to this, I think, from Nigel Farage himself, who...
00:53:50.440I'm going to read a few quotes, because I just wanted your comment on this, because...
00:53:54.920I, and again, just to be clear, I didn't feel that this was a fair characterization of you at all.
00:54:00.560So, GB News tell us that he described your departure from UK as a champagne moment, and the absolute icing on the cake.
00:54:08.800In an interview in GB News, he claimed that you had become increasingly critical, stating that you'd attacked him more in public than the Labour Party have,
00:54:16.520and that you're very bitter, very twisted, and it's very sad, and the fact that you walked away is, frankly, a huge relief.
00:54:24.960A note out, it is a huge relief, otherwise he wouldn't have said it.
00:55:39.720And I'm very worried about the rate of demographic change in the country, because that is the other side of the same coin,
00:55:48.380which is doing so much damage to the culture and integrity.
00:55:51.080I say integrity of our society. That's actually grammatically incorrect, because society requires a settled culture.
00:56:00.040And what we've got, we haven't got a society in this country anymore.
00:56:02.680We don't have a society. We have lots of different communities, all coexisting, and sometimes less harmoniously than at other times.
00:56:12.000And so we don't have a society. And I see the rate of demographic change as part of the reason our society no longer exists.
00:56:23.460And why multiculturalism is so damaging is because of the rate at which people have come into the country, amongst other things.
00:56:30.140And so I've got, you know, a few issues on that front with Reform UK.
00:56:33.980And also the party isn't democratised. There is no kind of check and balance or broad body of people that appoint the leadership and so on.
00:56:43.180It's a company owned by Nigel and Richard Theiss.
00:56:46.060And Nigel has said, to be fair to him, that he's going to democratise, but it hasn't happened.
00:56:50.340And some of the statements coming out have been misleading, in my view, about what they're going to do.
00:56:55.060But can I just leave all of that aside for a second?
00:56:57.720I think what Reform UK is squandering, if I may say so, is the ability to really galvanise and broaden and galvanise the movement it started.
00:57:16.420That, frankly, Richard and I started. Richard started and I joined him in this endeavour.
00:57:20.8804.1 million people voted for Reform UK, and they voted for Reform UK because they want a 180 degree change in direction for how the country is governed.
00:57:33.760We've talked about it at length in this interview.
00:57:37.020And by moving towards, I think, a position where Reform UK thinks it can appeal more to the mainstream,
00:57:44.620what it's forgetting is that the mainstream is a very crowded area politically.
00:57:50.880You know, you've got Liberal Democrats, Labour, Conservatives, they're all there.
00:57:55.480Greens, SNP, there are a plurality of left-wing politics.
00:58:00.340I mean, you know, I suppose Reform wouldn't be as far over as they are.
00:58:03.840But, you know, I think in the pursuit of sanitising itself, in the pursuit, I think, frankly, of recruiting Tories,
00:58:11.440Reform UK is at risk of turning its back on the movement it created and at risk of not growing that movement,
01:00:57.620But, you know, I just get it out there, people watching.
01:01:01.300But he sent a letter, as a matter of fact, to 1,300-odd Tory councillors who are coming up for election in May saying,
01:01:08.460you know, please consider joining Reform because you're going to lose as a member of the Conservative Party.
01:01:12.180And I can see some rationale for it because he wants to develop a ground game for Reform UK.
01:01:19.340But if you take on Tories on a wholesale basis, you become the Tory party.
01:01:25.340And in the pursuit of recruiting them, he's giving up on the very policies, principles, philosophy that got Reform its 4.1 million votes,
01:01:36.520that gave people some hope that this country may now have a change in direction.
01:01:42.260And so, I mean, I think we need to just look at what is opening up and how our movement,
01:01:50.180to which I feel very obliged because I was in part, you know, helped create it,
01:01:54.800how our movement reacts to what Reform is doing.
01:01:57.720And, you know, maybe we need a new political force to engage with that movement and represent that movement.
01:02:04.660I am definitely coming to the conclusion that there needs to be some kind of big tent party that understands itself to be consciously and foremost pro-British.
01:02:16.260Because I'm prepared to say things about Nigel that you're not prepared to say.
01:02:21.200Anyway, I've spoken to many people over the years who have had this kind of problem with Nigel.
01:02:26.040He seems to feel that his ego is under threat and his position as the kind of leader of the right in Britain is constantly under threat by talented people.
01:02:34.080And so he stepped on many people to get to where he is today.
01:02:37.100But this, I don't think, is sufficient.
01:02:39.560The fact that Reform are trailing in the polls when both the Labour and the Conservative parties are at their nadirs,
01:02:46.920I don't know how they could become less popular than they are, and yet Farage is still not beating any of them, is remarkable.
01:02:54.420And the fact that, I mean, when we had the local council elections a few weeks ago,
01:03:00.540and Reform, I think, got something like four out of however many hundred it was,
01:03:05.660and the Conservatives picked up loads.
01:03:07.420And it was like, well, hang on a second, how is this happening, Nigel?
01:03:09.560And he had to ask councillors to defect to him, and none did, or one did, I think.
01:03:13.640And it was like, okay, but that's a tremendous embarrassment.
01:03:17.200That shows a profound amount of weakness.
01:03:19.220And the fact that you are stood in an ivory tower saying, okay, you can come to me now.
01:05:43.920Okay, if you're the sort of person who wants that, then fair enough.
01:05:45.700But like, you know, you could have a well-structured, well-organized hierarchy that Nigel would be at the top of and then they would have layers of activists and, you know, and close advisors and things like that.
01:05:57.440But instead, he surrounds himself with just a handful of people who all seem okay, but not brilliant.
01:06:05.840But also, there's a kind of fragility to the Reform Party that I think, well, as soon as Nigel...
01:06:12.500Frankly, I think that I don't think he's going to win the next election on the current trajectory that he's on in the big numbers that he's expecting to do.
01:06:19.300But honestly, I thought, like, you know, six months ago that he would be capable of.
01:06:23.100I think that the fragility that exists in the Reform Party means that essentially he will...
01:06:27.720He'll get, you know, 30 seats or something.
01:06:29.680But then Nigel's going to be 65 and say, okay, I'm just going to pack it in.
01:06:33.120Well, that's the risk with him owning and controlling the party.
01:06:35.880And then the whole thing just collapses.
01:09:26.260And I don't like to be like, OK, but, you know, actually, how many conservatives do you really need?
01:09:33.300You know, aren't you looking at those as the sort of like the people who failed the country?
01:09:37.280And, you know, you should be raising up a bunch of people.
01:09:39.940I mean, what Nigel should be doing, forget about everything we've discussed, what Nigel should be doing is gathering around him all the really great thinkers of our movement, including people like yourself, if I may say so, and others, you know.
01:09:57.280I won't name names because then I'll have to go on naming names until I've named everyone.
01:10:01.140But there's a massive wealth of talent, all desirous, all recognizing the threats the country's facing, all desirous to do well by the country.
01:10:11.960And he should be gathering those people around him and promoting them and listening to them and understanding what it is that needs to be done and making a fighting force.
01:10:24.240We should be a fantastic, strong fighting force.
01:10:27.460Very much in the way that Trump has done recently.
01:10:29.540You look at all of the people that Trump's been bringing into his campaign, into his administration, and you realize this is taking on the sort of Avengers-style memetic quality to it.
01:11:17.740You know what I've found is people are actually a lot more open to have discussions and form friendships in this sphere than not, actually.
01:11:27.580I've not had any problems getting guests on here.
01:11:30.520I've not had any problems going to other people's shows.
01:19:01.840But, I mean, what a remarkable thing for a member of the cabinet to be talking about nailing individuals into their flats in glowing terms.
01:19:08.220Yeah, and the whole aspect of the sort of international liberal technocrats has been one of veneration towards China and the Chinese Communist Party.
01:19:18.280And I really find that deeply suspicious.
01:19:20.780And for some reason they're in government.