The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters - The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters #1079

00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome to the podcast of the Lotus Eaters, episode 1079.

00:00:04.140 Blimey, we're getting old around here.

00:00:05.880 It is the 8th of January, 2025.

00:00:09.060 Happy New Year, folks.

00:00:10.080 My first appearance back, I believe, if I remember correctly.

00:00:12.720 No, wait, we did one a little while ago.

00:00:14.300 Anyway.

00:00:14.900 What?

00:00:15.160 I'm stupid.

00:00:16.040 It's the 15th, isn't it, today?

00:00:17.520 It is the 15th, yes.

00:00:18.500 15th, wow.

00:00:20.140 Don't ask me.

00:00:20.800 Turning into Callum all of a sudden, asking what the date actually has to be.

00:00:23.260 He never bothered with the date.

00:00:24.620 Fair point.

00:00:25.140 Anyway, my name's Connor.

00:00:26.500 I remember that bit.

00:00:27.240 I'm with Harry, and today we are joined by our guest, William Clouston, head of the

00:00:31.000 Social Democrat Party.

00:00:32.020 Thank you very much.

00:00:32.960 Good to be here.

00:00:33.500 Well, if people aren't aware of your party, your positions, etc., do you mind giving an

00:00:39.320 elevator pitch to them?

00:00:41.000 Yeah, I hate doing elevator pitches, but...

00:00:43.820 You're welcome.

00:00:44.440 Yeah, but the STP is basically, historically, is an offshoot of the Labour Party.

00:00:49.660 Trace it back to 1981.

00:00:51.320 But our brand of politics is a red-blue brand.

00:00:53.840 We are sort of leaning left on economics, and on culture, we're culturally traditional.

00:01:01.960 So that's the gap we fill in British politics, red and blue, state and nation, faith, flag

00:01:07.640 and family.

00:01:08.500 Isn't that the phrase that reform, let's say, liberally appropriated during the election

00:01:15.500 is the place?

00:01:16.120 Yeah, I can't, Connor, I can't do anything about these things, really, if a party like

00:01:21.280 reform.

00:01:21.980 So yeah, family, community, nation is our strapline, if you like.

00:01:28.440 We've been using that for five years.

00:01:30.280 And then suddenly reform come along, and I look at, I think it was their conference, it

00:01:33.920 was literally out in the election.

00:01:34.980 I thought, hold on, I've seen that somewhere before.

00:01:37.040 And actually, the choice for me at the time, I mean, a lot of members, STP members were

00:01:42.080 annoyed about that, because it is, I mean, they did pinch it.

00:01:45.600 Unless just by, in all the slogans in the entire world, that just dropped after us hammering

00:01:50.780 it for five years.

00:01:51.680 And they know us, and we had an electoral pact with them, so they're fully aware of it.

00:01:55.060 And I did mention it to a few of them privately, and there was a wry smile.

00:01:58.740 They did change nation into country, at least.

00:02:01.800 But I can't do anything about that.

00:02:03.360 Maybe it's the best form of flattery.

00:02:06.180 Yeah, it's good we're all seeing you from the same hymn sheet, and we'll be discussing

00:02:09.720 that today, because we're going to be talking about Labour's third world corruption scandal,

00:02:15.940 whether or not woke has been put away, and reforms critical friends, because there's

00:02:21.280 a bit of consternation over there, and we can talk about marginal party politics.

00:02:25.040 But before we jump into today's news items, I will remind people that today is Wednesday.

00:02:30.720 Good, I remember that one.

00:02:31.600 At three o'clock, it's going to be Thomson Talks, as per usual.

00:02:33.760 I'm going to keep the coverage going on the grooming gang scandal, because the cover-up

00:02:38.020 is perpetual by Labour politicians, local councillors, members of the police.

00:02:42.820 And so we're going to go through a lot of case studies, some of the recent reporting

00:02:45.980 that's come out, and the vote that happened last Wednesday for a national inquiry.

00:02:51.420 Random question.

00:02:52.760 SDP position on the national inquiry?

00:02:54.600 Yes or no?

00:02:55.180 Yes.

00:02:55.740 But I don't think...

00:02:56.460 I mean, it would be helpful if it was quick.

00:02:58.960 I don't think enriching lawyers for several years is going to help anything.

00:03:03.540 I think we already know.

00:03:04.580 I think what we need is to have what we already know, and the data in particular on the crime

00:03:10.060 are published, quantified and published rapidly.

00:03:13.840 And then, you know, the police and the local authorities and the rest of the political establishment

00:03:17.780 need to do something about this.

00:03:20.080 Yes, and the people that help cover it up should face jail times.

00:03:22.480 We should definitely get some of the names on there.

00:03:24.180 But William's stuff as well is in the description, so you can find him on X.

00:03:27.560 And I recommend you go and watch for a full rundown of the SDP that you might not also

00:03:31.920 get in our news items here, an interview he just did with Peter McCormack, who's a good

00:03:36.040 friend and sort of like Britain's Joe Rogan at this point.

00:03:39.200 It's very good stuff.

00:03:40.440 But all of the introductions finally out of the way.

00:03:44.320 Let's talk about Labour's brand new third world corruption scandal.

00:03:47.980 Now, if you are outside of the UK and aren't permanently plugged into our news cycle, like we three

00:03:53.580 are, you might not be familiar with this name.

00:03:55.600 Well, unless you live in Bangladesh.

00:03:57.560 And that is Tulip Sadiq.

00:03:58.840 Now, Tulip Sadiq was the shadow education treasury minister when Labour were in opposition since

00:04:04.420 2016.

00:04:05.120 She was elected in 2014.

00:04:07.020 She's now the member for the new constituency of Hampstead and Highgate, but she's been around

00:04:11.720 for ages.

00:04:13.040 And she's been the treasury secretary since the election on the 9th of July.

00:04:17.340 Until yesterday.

00:04:18.940 This is important.

00:04:20.360 She was Keir Starmer's close personal friend.

00:04:22.180 She was also his anti-corruption minister.

00:04:24.880 And she's resigned for a corruption probe.

00:04:28.940 Don't you just love politics in this country?

00:04:31.680 It's going so well for Labour at the moment, isn't it?

00:04:34.880 I bet you're thinking, yeah, the fact that we split from them quite a while ago.

00:04:39.820 Oh, a long time ago.

00:04:40.740 Yeah, no, it's long gone.

00:04:42.020 Yeah.

00:04:42.360 Yes.

00:04:42.660 So a bit of background on what the corruption probe actually is.

00:04:45.720 So it's related to the fact that her aunt, so she's the niece of Sheikh Hasina, and Sheikh

00:04:52.700 Hasina until last year was the longest serving female head of state and the longest serving

00:05:00.080 prime minister in Bangladesh.

00:05:01.460 And she was the leader of something called the Awami League, which was the ruling party

00:05:05.780 at the time.

00:05:06.220 And they were basically an unbroken chain of rulers since 1971 when they had their war

00:05:11.300 for independence.

00:05:12.960 And Josh actually covered this a little while ago in a segment on the website about the

00:05:17.600 revolution happening in Bangladesh.

00:05:19.360 So what ended up happening was Hasina's dad was the first PM of Bangladesh after independence.

00:05:25.080 And then they played ethnic familial clientele politics by allotting about 5% of all government

00:05:31.860 jobs to families of the people that fought for the War of Independence.

00:05:36.220 They then also allotted at least 2% for DEI work, like transgender people and racial minorities

00:05:41.360 and all that.

00:05:41.940 And so they were a kind of secular UN aligned government that tried to keep the Islamic and

00:05:48.220 the Hindu minority factions under control.

00:05:50.380 And after the Supreme Court ruled that that was going to be in portion, there were a bunch

00:05:53.820 of student riots that then turned into Islamic riots.

00:05:56.280 They burned down Hindu temples and chained Hindu women to fence posts and things like that.

00:06:00.800 And so Hasina, when they started gathering outside the prime minister's quarters, fled

00:06:04.120 on a helicopter to India and has been in hiding ever since.

00:06:07.320 So there were allegations that her government were despotic and that they locked up certain

00:06:13.140 political dissidents.

00:06:14.080 So she wasn't the most cuddly and cosy lover of human rights leader, which is a bit inconvenient

00:06:19.760 when you've got a senior member of the Labour Party who's also related to her and seems

00:06:23.700 particularly concerned about Bangladeshi politics back in her family's country.

00:06:29.200 So the corruption prode, specifically on Sadiq's case, there were officials over at the ACC,

00:06:35.000 which is now the ruling party in Bangladesh.

00:06:37.220 Apparently, Hasina had allotted plots of land in 2022 in collaboration with senior officials

00:06:45.180 of the, and this is going to be very difficult for me to pronounce, Rajhani Uniyan Kartiparka,

00:06:52.600 so Rajuk, thank you, which is the Capital Development Authority in Bangladesh.

00:06:57.880 So Rajuk is apparently responsible for urban planning and development in the Dhaka metropolitan

00:07:02.420 area.

00:07:03.220 And so she was giving, let's say, preferential treatment to her political allies for development

00:07:08.620 in the area.

00:07:10.020 And this was to do with Tulip Sadiq.

00:07:13.220 And there's also another claim about £4 billion of embezzlement for Sheikh Hasina.

00:07:18.560 So her aunt...

00:07:18.900 It just comes with all the territory, doesn't it?

00:07:20.260 A lot of money.

00:07:21.060 Yeah, not exactly pocket change to find down the back of the sofa.

00:07:24.440 What you're telling me is the third world government was corrupt.

00:07:28.200 I know, knock you down with a feather.

00:07:29.860 Yeah, I'm shocked.

00:07:32.260 Are you now going to begin advocating that we should bring that sort of corruption here?

00:07:36.440 Well, it looks like it might possibly already be.

00:07:38.880 Well, I mean, that's what our government has already been doing for a long time.

00:07:41.440 Well, quite.

00:07:41.880 So Sadiq has denied all wrongdoing, and she said that her ownership of properties possibly

00:07:46.940 may be linked to her very corrupt and despotic arm is...

00:07:50.900 Any suggestion is categorically wrong.

00:07:53.600 Problem...

00:07:54.000 It's like all of those houses that Angela Rayner owns.

00:07:55.900 It's a little bit different.

00:07:58.360 I mean, on reading it, the odd thing about this is her puzzlement or equivocation about

00:08:05.360 who gave her a particular flat in London, who donated it.

00:08:08.300 Because apparently someone just gave her a flat, you know, as a gift.

00:08:12.160 As you do.

00:08:12.640 Yeah, as a gift.

00:08:13.280 And part of the inquiry, the recent inquiry, and the cause of the trouble now, the proximate

00:08:16.820 cause, is that there was a lack of clarity about her account of who gave her that flat.

00:08:22.180 Was it her mother?

00:08:23.740 Was it a family member?

00:08:25.020 Was it a property developer in Bangladesh?

00:08:27.540 Which apparently it turns out to be.

00:08:29.320 But the odd thing is that you can't...

00:08:31.940 Like a salient person isn't really equivocal about this stuff, you know.

00:08:35.480 I mean, fair enough.

00:08:36.120 You know, if it's Christmas and you've got a chocolate orange, six months later, say,

00:08:39.300 yeah, who gave you the chocolate?

00:08:40.140 I'm not really sure it was really nice.

00:08:41.580 But, you know, a flat that you live in, you ought to know...

00:08:44.360 That you've had for 20 years.

00:08:45.640 Yes, who gave it to you?

00:08:47.020 You know, was it...

00:08:47.540 So that's the problem.

00:08:48.780 And then the inquiry that we just had and is published, the civil servant had a look at

00:08:53.040 it.

00:08:53.420 The wording is very interesting because they, you know, there's no evidence.

00:08:57.680 But abstinence of evidence of corruption isn't evidence that there was no corruption at

00:09:02.480 all.

00:09:02.640 So you don't know.

00:09:03.160 He said that.

00:09:03.720 But it's...

00:09:04.360 I think the reason she's gone is that it just looks terrible.

00:09:07.000 Absolutely terrible.

00:09:08.280 And to be the person in the government that's responsible for corruption, but getting embroiled

00:09:12.660 into that is a problem.

00:09:14.180 But, you know, Conrad, I think the worst thing about this general issue is, and I'm talking

00:09:21.880 general, I'm talking about this case, that the appalling thing about this is that there

00:09:26.540 are kleptocracies all over the third world, all over the world, right?

00:09:30.720 And in this particular case, you're talking about £4 billion.

00:09:32.980 These are very, very poor countries in many cases, right?

00:09:36.220 And the leaders, you know, basically steal, a lot of them steal from these countries.

00:09:41.760 And then they'll end up in the Francophone world, they end up in Paris, and Paris does

00:09:46.400 very well out of it, in the Lucifer world.

00:09:48.960 They end up in Lisbon and Porto, eating in expensive restaurants, having skinned these

00:09:53.000 countries.

00:09:54.220 And in London, London's full of these people.

00:09:58.440 We do nothing about it.

00:09:59.380 We don't care.

00:09:59.980 But remember that poor people in these countries are being ripped off, basically, by this.

00:10:05.880 And I think it's important.

00:10:07.440 Well, it's also the fact that we allow wealthy foreign nationals just to buy up loads of our

00:10:13.080 property.

00:10:14.160 So it becomes an incentive to launder money that you might have gotten through ill-gotten

00:10:20.700 means in different countries who have unilaterally liberal attitudes to property ownership and

00:10:28.780 commerce, whereas your country is very ethnically, familiarly protectionist.

00:10:33.120 I mean, this, her arm was putting in place a regime where the families of the people

00:10:39.460 that fought for independence were guaranteed government jobs despite their competency.

00:10:42.900 Yes, and we saw that.

00:10:43.500 And that was the origin of the riots.

00:10:44.820 And then a lot of people lost their lives, quite rightly, objecting to that, because why

00:10:48.620 should that be the case?

00:10:49.400 It's crazy.

00:10:50.340 But it just, on a broader point, we tolerate it because we want the money, basically.

00:10:54.660 But it's rotten, absolutely rotten to the core.

00:10:56.280 And anyone that thinks, this is one of the things that, you know, progressive liberals don't

00:11:00.480 really get and don't want to believe, but it happens to be true on the evidence, is that

00:11:04.340 most of these countries around the world are pretty corrupt.

00:11:07.200 Get a Transparency International, have a look at the Corruption Index, and have a look at

00:11:10.560 the extent of corruption.

00:11:12.040 It's normalized.

00:11:13.040 There are probably only about 40 countries out of the 180, 190 that have reasonable levels

00:11:20.780 of non-corruption, you know.

00:11:21.980 And there's a league table, there's a hierarchy.

00:11:25.240 But, you know, Bangladesh is one of the most corrupt countries in the world.

00:11:29.200 Yeah, and it's excellent that we're sourcing lots of immigration there.

00:11:32.680 And I can't possibly think of any drawbacks of allowing someone who has direct familial

00:11:37.600 interest in the politics of that country up in the highest echelons of our government,

00:11:42.360 as we can see.

00:11:43.620 So a couple of details on the flat.

00:11:44.900 And also to answer your question, Harry, about whether or not it's, well, is it confirmed

00:11:50.000 or is it a bit like Angela Rayner's place?

00:11:52.100 There's a link to the Labour Party coming up.

00:11:53.600 So the flat in question, she got it in King's Cross in 2004, you know, prime bit of London

00:11:58.700 real estate.

00:11:59.600 And the filings indicate the donor was a man named Abdul Mottalif, who's a property developer,

00:12:05.200 linked to her aunt.

00:12:06.560 And, well, despite them saying there's absolutely no suggestion that she could have got this

00:12:12.160 through ill-gotten means because of her aunt's influence, after the Prime Minister's

00:12:16.640 residence was sacked by the protesters when she left.

00:12:19.160 And it's funny because apparently the Times is reporting that there were Labour flyers

00:12:25.080 and a thank you letter for helping Sadiq get elected found in the ransacked house.

00:12:31.540 So there was, I'd say, a lot of familial cross-pollination.

00:12:34.560 Do you think, I mean, I saw that, but do you think that's surprising?

00:12:37.460 I mean, they are a family, right?

00:12:38.920 So her aunt would want her elected.

00:12:40.640 Naturally, she'd want her elected.

00:12:42.180 Yes.

00:12:42.440 Yeah.

00:12:43.100 I mean, I saw that.

00:12:44.620 So the idea that there is absolutely no transmission between the British Labour Party and the regime

00:12:50.820 in Bangladesh, as you said, evidence of not having evidence of corruption.

00:12:55.120 Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

00:12:57.360 There's clearly a suggestion of a permeable barrier here, to say the least.

00:13:00.560 So the idea that she's going, well, we had absolutely no idea and there's nothing untoward

00:13:03.660 to see here.

00:13:04.140 Yeah, and the other thing that was interesting is the rather, let's say, embarrassing for

00:13:10.080 the Labour Party photograph of Tulip Sadiq over with Putin and her aunt, too.

00:13:18.260 Do you see that photo?

00:13:19.180 No, I don't.

00:13:19.560 It's out there, you know, if you look for it, yeah.

00:13:21.080 So it's there, you know, so I was invited along.

00:13:23.180 Nothing to see here.

00:13:24.580 Nothing much to see here.

00:13:26.840 Yeah.

00:13:27.120 As much as she wants to then say that she's done nothing wrong.

00:13:29.780 Not connected, yeah.

00:13:30.440 Yeah, literally the next day she's resigned.

00:13:32.600 She referred herself to Solori Magnus, who's the Keir Starmer's ethics advisor.

00:13:39.060 I didn't realise he had one.

00:13:40.180 He might want to get a new one because he's not exactly doing very well at the moment.

00:13:43.680 And then she wrote a letter to Starmer yesterday saying, Solori said, he wrote, sorry, that

00:13:49.560 he should consider her ongoing, she should reconsider her ongoing responsibilities, even

00:13:54.600 though he didn't believe the ministerial code had been breached.

00:13:56.600 So even though he didn't hold her up on an actual ethics complaint, he was still saying

00:14:01.160 something looks a bit squirrelly here.

00:14:02.460 So not a good look to have an anti-corruption minister being investigated for corruption.

00:14:07.620 And so she's now resigned, saying that it's likely to be a distraction from the work of

00:14:11.820 the government.

00:14:12.860 Right.

00:14:13.240 So the problem is not that you might have done something wrong.

00:14:15.660 The problem is that the headlines about you possibly doing something wrong is going to

00:14:19.040 distract from all of the other errors that the Labour Party is making.

00:14:21.940 Which is true as well.

00:14:24.540 I mean, they don't want that.

00:14:25.860 And it is a, it's just very, very unfortunate that the government's person in charge of corruption

00:14:32.120 is sort of linked in some way to other corruption inquiries in other jurisdictions.

00:14:38.100 Yeah.

00:14:38.660 And then, okay.

00:14:40.440 So as you said, is it a good idea to import this very familial, nepotistic politics over?

00:14:46.560 It turns out the government's doing that anyway, because her replacement's been announced,

00:14:49.740 right?

00:14:50.040 And I saw this in the Telegraph, I'm just gonna have to read from it.

00:14:51.980 So she'll be replaced as Economic Secretary to the Treasury by Emma Reynolds.

00:14:56.540 And Emma Reynolds was Work and Pensions Minister.

00:14:59.480 So she's going to be succeeded by Torsten Bell, who ran the Resolution Foundation before

00:15:03.760 coming an MP, and who is the twin brother of a guy called Olaf Herrickson Bell, who's

00:15:08.620 a career civil servant who recently became the head of the Number 10 Policy Unit.

00:15:12.680 So they're literally just appointing each other's family members from permanent civil

00:15:15.600 servants.

00:15:16.340 Like, it's a big club.

00:15:18.060 None of us will ever be in it, it turns out.

00:15:20.580 And then there's the question of, okay, just how third world of politics are we going to

00:15:25.960 get here?

00:15:26.400 Because a little while ago, she was questioned about her untoward links with her aunt's regime,

00:15:31.880 because one of the people that her aunt was supposedly imprisoning under spurious means

00:15:38.500 was a British-trained barrister called Ahmad bin Qasem, good British name, and he was imprisoned

00:15:44.380 by Sadiq's aunt for eight years and was only freed after she was chucked out.

00:15:47.280 And Sadiq was questioned by Channel 4 in 2017, one of the few times that Channel 4 has ever

00:15:51.640 done anything sensible, when she was campaigning for the release of Nazarene Zaghari Radcliffe,

00:15:58.360 the woman that was imprisoned in the Iranian regime.

00:16:00.860 I think she used to work for Reuters, and then Boris Johnson and Liz Truss got her out.

00:16:05.340 And she was asked, well, why don't you just make one phone call to your aunt to release

00:16:09.680 this guy?

00:16:10.120 And we've got video footage of what she said here, but she turned around to the journalist

00:16:13.920 in question, who was pregnant at the time, and said, you want to be very careful.

00:16:19.620 I'm British Member of Parliament.

00:16:21.120 I'm not Bangladeshi.

00:16:22.280 And the person you were talking about, I have no idea about their case.

00:16:24.560 And then she said, thanks for coming, Daisy.

00:16:26.040 Hope you have a great birth, because child labour is hard.

00:16:28.480 See you.

00:16:29.280 Yeah, it's not very nice.

00:16:31.160 It feels threatening, doesn't it?

00:16:33.020 It's really, you know.

00:16:33.840 Like, okay, the implication being what?

00:16:36.940 Yeah.

00:16:37.920 You know, it's a bit...

00:16:38.720 It's creepy, actually.

00:16:39.600 Yeah, I'll play the footage just so we aren't mischaracterising her, but it's properly...

00:16:44.420 You're absolutely disgraceful.

00:16:46.180 You're disgraceful.

00:16:47.680 Absolutely disgraceful.

00:16:49.320 Disgraceful.

00:16:49.820 Leave the camera alone.

00:16:50.840 You're disgraceful.

00:16:51.500 MPs are there to answer questions.

00:16:53.140 Don't you think about her family connections to her every...

00:16:58.140 Very careful, very careful.

00:17:03.000 I am a British MP.

00:17:07.700 Very weird.

00:17:13.440 Like, be very careful of what?

00:17:15.680 Asking about your aunt's imprisonment, possibly strange imprisonment of a British trained barrister.

00:17:21.820 What?

00:17:22.300 Be very careful about what?

00:17:24.360 Like, I just...

00:17:26.580 I can't help but think here that we shouldn't have to deal with any of this.

00:17:29.280 Like, I shouldn't have to know the ins and outs of Bangladeshi politics just to know my own politics.

00:17:32.580 We should not be importing this very kleptocratic, nepotistic, possibly corrupt, threat-based politics.

00:17:40.780 No, you don't want that.

00:17:42.220 But you're likely going to make a broader point about...

00:17:45.140 A sort of academic point about types of immigration and what the true nature of it is.

00:17:50.000 So I try and plug this thinker called Garrett Jones, who wrote a very important book called Culture Transplant two years ago.

00:17:58.300 He's an academic at George Mason in Washington.

00:18:00.620 Brilliant book.

00:18:01.300 And if you want to understand what's going on, please read this book.

00:18:04.420 The book is Culture Transplant.

00:18:06.200 Why Immigrants Make the Countries They Go To More Like the Countries They Came From.

00:18:10.740 Sounds obvious.

00:18:11.480 It's the sort of thing that's...

00:18:12.580 I mean, he shouldn't, as an economics professor, have to write this book, because people in pubs know this, right?

00:18:19.600 You know this is the case.

00:18:20.700 But on all the data, actually, assimilation is a bit of a myth.

00:18:24.840 People go to a different place.

00:18:26.220 It's largely the cultural practices, beliefs, savings rates, a whole load of stuff that that group has goes with them.

00:18:34.920 I mean, you don't suddenly become...

00:18:36.620 Like, you know, if you come from a group, because it's not individuals, but a population is transferred from a war-torn Middle East zone or sub-Saharan Africa or another place and goes to Denmark,

00:18:47.020 it doesn't suddenly become dangerous.

00:18:48.680 It really doesn't.

00:18:49.400 And it won't.

00:18:49.840 And actually, one of the problems is that progressives imagine that it can, or that it's reasonable even to ask that it should, because no one's getting to a new place.

00:18:59.360 I'll just forget all about my culture.

00:19:00.940 No.

00:19:01.460 Culture migrates.

00:19:02.880 That's his big point.

00:19:04.160 So, broader point.

00:19:05.220 I'm not talking about this case, but broader point.

00:19:07.360 If you import a lot of people with belief system X to your country, it won't change very much, and it'll stay the same.

00:19:15.360 When you bring up Denmark and the Netherlands, data that we've discussed before that they've collected,

00:19:20.260 it just shows that first-generation migrants and their second- and third-generation descendants repeat the economic and criminal participation patterns of their parents,

00:19:28.980 which means that immigrants from the Middle East, North and often sub-Saharan Africa, Pakistan and Turkey are, across their lifetimes, never net taxpaying contributors,

00:19:37.960 whereas East Asian, American, Australian and Western European migrants are positive contributors around the middle of their lifetime when they're at their peak working age,

00:19:46.960 as is the native Danish population.

00:19:48.560 But across the cycle are as well.

00:19:49.980 So then, yeah, Jan van der Beek's Borderless Europe, very good.

00:19:53.160 I mean, I think it's a seminal bit of work, a couple of years old now, translated into English last year, and everyone should read it.

00:19:59.300 And if you want evidence-based policy about migration, you have to look at this.

00:20:02.440 You really must do.

00:20:02.980 Well, there's also the data, I think it's American data, looking into the patterns of nationalism towards the homelands that comes from first, second, and third-generation immigrants.

00:20:12.740 And they find that, if anything, the first generations who first got there are the ones that try the hardest to assimilate.

00:20:18.920 And as you go through the generations, they get more and more nationalistic towards their original homelands.

00:20:23.480 They're in group, yeah.

00:20:24.420 Yeah.

00:20:25.100 It can be the case.

00:20:25.960 Same thing happened in that policy exchange report.

00:20:29.040 Oh, no, it might have been the Henry Jackson Society report about the Islamic data.

00:20:32.980 From last year.

00:20:34.080 And it said that, you know, 52% want to criminalize drawing of the Prophet Muhammad.

00:20:38.600 30% are happy with Sharia law.

00:20:40.540 75% think Hamas did nothing wrong.

00:20:42.680 And it's mainly concentrated among British-born 18 to 30 males with a university degree.

00:20:48.640 Yeah.

00:20:48.900 So even though they're highly educated, even though they're supposedly economic net contributors, even though they've been born on the magic soil, it doesn't magically transmogrify.

00:20:56.920 There's no such thing.

00:20:57.860 Magic soil doesn't exist.

00:20:58.940 But it's one of these points you've got to get across.

00:21:02.840 And it's a very clever book.

00:21:04.160 Actually, his book is mainly about Southeast Asia.

00:21:06.540 And he looks in particular at Chinese diasporas.

00:21:10.380 Fascinating.

00:21:10.820 The stability of things like the Chinese savings rate across all, you know, Chinese populations in Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore, China itself, Taiwan, and the United States, pretty much the same.

00:21:21.880 The savings rate is pretty similar.

00:21:23.860 High savings rate.

00:21:25.320 And we shouldn't be surprised.

00:21:26.820 The equation is savings equal investment.

00:21:28.780 Investment equals future prosperity.

00:21:30.260 And that's why you get a group that outperforms, as well as all the other things.

00:21:34.580 So if you transport a population from A to B, the population will give you what they had in the first place.

00:21:40.640 It should also be really obvious by remittance rates, because a large amount of the economy of these countries, I think India, is like 180 billion every single year.

00:21:48.580 It's far bigger than foreign aid.

00:21:49.960 Yeah.

00:21:50.100 Far, far.

00:21:50.360 Exactly.

00:21:51.040 So that means that the people that are in this country have loyalties to their homeland and the people living in that homeland.

00:21:56.040 So they're not going to spend money that they're earning here in the national economy.

00:21:59.440 They're just sending it back.

00:22:00.800 And that's why as a model, if you've got your eyes open on a migration model, immigration policy should be alive to these things.

00:22:07.540 So, I mean, to be fair, Connor, you know, it's of duty to the wider family as well.

00:22:12.480 So particularly West African migration, if you go to a small town in Ghana and you've got a few businesses, quite often the businesses there are set up because brother or son has got a couriering job in Croydon and is sending, which in Ghana and Sedi is quite big money, and they can set a business up.

00:22:29.920 So it works for family massively.

00:22:31.380 And actually, very few migrants from that society would come here and not be burdened or fettered with quite big obligations to their family.

00:22:39.240 But as an economic model for us, it's crazy, absolutely crazy, because not only do we depress wages here, not only do we fail to train our own people, we have a model which is bad for the balance of payments, obviously, because you're transferring wealth out.

00:22:54.160 You're earning it here.

00:22:54.900 You're creating basically an import.

00:22:57.060 There you go.

00:22:57.420 Yeah.

00:22:57.580 And the final example I'm going to use came out on the same day.

00:23:00.040 So I don't know if you saw this tweet yesterday.

00:23:01.880 There was a chap in a kaffir in Brighton who was given British citizenship by the Brighton mayor, who himself is of an immigrant and Islamic background.

00:23:12.800 And it reads for all your listeners, yesterday I became British.

00:23:16.280 I thought the ceremony would be nationalistic and a bit cringe until the Lord Mayor of Brighton started his speech with,

00:23:21.460 al-salamu alaykum.

00:23:23.840 Yeah, you're not British.

00:23:25.400 You're a paper citizen.

00:23:26.480 Thank you for demonstrating your cringe for my country.

00:23:29.360 I think you should have your citizenship revoked and returned instantly.

00:23:33.360 But this all boils down to people will import the baggage of indigestible tribal allegiances,

00:23:41.380 whether it's to family members overseas, whether it's to a foreign religion,

00:23:44.640 whether it's to ethnic identity that they think is opposed to ours for colonial, even skin colour surface level reasons.

00:23:51.980 And so there are certain people that will never integrate.

00:23:54.200 And so if you allow this to incorporate itself into British politics, it will take advantage of the very liberal,

00:24:01.520 very individualistic instincts of British politics with its clannish structure and then start taking the piss.

00:24:07.880 So perhaps we shouldn't allow that to happen.

00:24:09.860 It's far from ideal because the chap who's done that, he's smiling and he's obviously very happy to become British.

00:24:16.200 But that entitles him to the social wage, which is, you know, education and health benefits, housing possibly.

00:24:23.320 But then has a pop at nationalistic and cringe.

00:24:26.220 Well, I'd hope he would be nationalistic, but he's going to become British.

00:24:29.860 Because the only hope this country has is a form of nationalism that can unite people.

00:24:34.600 It maybe doesn't unite him, I don't know.

00:24:36.640 Yeah, I think...

00:24:37.680 Doesn't seem to.

00:24:38.500 No, he's the perfect example of what Douglas Murray once said.

00:24:41.060 If you import the third world, you get the third world's problems.

00:24:43.820 But anyway, Harry.

00:24:45.700 All right, we've not got any rumble rents or anything.

00:24:48.260 Nope.

00:24:49.060 Okay, let's carry on.

00:24:50.780 So I'm going to talk about wokeism and present my case for the idea that woke, as some have predicted,

00:24:58.020 AA in particular, is slowly being put away.

00:25:01.740 Now, I'm not trying to make a case here that it's going to vanish overnight,

00:25:04.660 nor am I going to make an argument that things like local councils and especially the educational establishment

00:25:10.140 aren't still going to be infested with these people.

00:25:13.380 My argument is that we have reached peak woke a couple of years ago now, especially following George Floyd.

00:25:21.400 And since then, I mean, we saw the result of that in that Bloomberg article, in particular with DEI practices,

00:25:27.020 where corporate America decided to basically only hire non-white people as a result of the George Floyd riots.

00:25:33.020 So we've reached the peak and now it's beginning to die down, especially with Donald Trump coming to administration in America.

00:25:41.360 And particularly, I would say also following the, I think what spurred this along a little bit more as well was October 7th.

00:25:49.520 And a lot of the tech guys like Mark Zuckerberg realizing that by supporting woke, whether they intended to or not to begin with,

00:25:57.320 they have aligned themselves with people who don't just see it as a regional conflict thousands of miles away,

00:26:04.340 but see somebody like Mark Zuckerberg as their ancient enemy and hate him for it.

00:26:10.860 Quick question.

00:26:11.740 So would you, when you say we there, are you conceiving this as the imperial capital of the great American empire,

00:26:18.420 has realized this, but it's going to take time to cascade across its various vassal states like the UK?

00:26:23.760 We're still getting, in the UK in particular, we're still going to get headlines like this from the Sun,

00:26:28.160 partially because the Sun like to promote this kind of thing because it's news site articles for them,

00:26:33.800 but also because for some reason, like this one, woke council bans staff from asking people for their Christian name over risk of offending snowflakes.

00:26:40.800 If you actually read the contents of the article, it's not that cut and dry.

00:26:45.440 They're just asking people for their first names and it doesn't seem to have been any kind of ban.

00:26:50.280 So the Sun doing their usual excellent journalism there.

00:26:54.220 But still, I will admit, Britain in particular seems remarkably glued to woke ideology,

00:27:01.040 probably because I would imagine that given that it's kind of a divisive, dividing, intentionally ideology

00:27:07.900 that's meant to divide, shall we say, native populations whilst uniting foreign populations,

00:27:14.540 it acts as kind of a unifying glue for hostile foreign populations coming into the country

00:27:21.380 because it gives them a target that they can all aim against, basically whitey, is how I would describe it there.

00:27:28.560 We can then play in...

00:27:29.460 And also you'd have lots of insane true believers, white or otherwise, who have been staffed in a lot of these institutions

00:27:37.200 and it will take time to either sideline or replace these people.

00:27:40.620 And with Labour in charge as well, I think it was Morgoth said that we might end up being woke North Korea.

00:27:46.660 Yeah, well you can play divide and conquer client politics,

00:27:49.900 but even that isn't looking so great for the Labour Party right now

00:27:52.940 because they always have to go and have a struggle session down at the mosque

00:27:56.320 to stop various Islamic communities voting for independent Islamic candidates.

00:28:02.040 But obviously in the UK it's a different situation to the US right now.

00:28:07.200 And the US is where a lot of this will be focused on, although there are already counter-arguments to this.

00:28:13.160 I know you've contributed to The Critic.

00:28:15.160 The Critic, for instance, put out an article the other day by David Scullion saying that woke isn't nearly over.

00:28:20.760 And he's pointing out something that I actually agree with here,

00:28:23.360 which is not necessarily that the driving force behind all of these initiatives is going to be put away straight away.

00:28:29.580 A lot of this is going to end up either being temporary until they can get another Democrat in,

00:28:33.980 or is a form of rebranding.

00:28:36.620 Like, for instance, I've covered the bridge initiatives in corporate America as well,

00:28:41.560 which seems to be, instead of having specific policies or specific branches of corporations dedicated to DEI,

00:28:49.820 basically just have it written into the goals of the corporation in the first place,

00:28:54.980 that it's always something that they're going for, greater diversity.

00:28:58.260 Like the Charities Act or the Equalities Act in Britain, so that you set the law,

00:29:03.260 you set internal company guidance, which then sets the incentives for them to comply,

00:29:07.340 whether or not there are true believers in the institution.

00:29:09.600 You make it so that if they're risk-averse, they err on the side of diversity in order to do it.

00:29:14.900 You make it so that there are corporate costs to not hiring these people,

00:29:18.420 who will end up occupying the recruitment centres,

00:29:22.900 and if they're true believers, they are only going to hire other true believers,

00:29:26.080 so that's how you get infested.

00:29:28.220 And he even points out in here, mainly regarding the education sector in the US,

00:29:32.540 he says, totally overrun.

00:29:34.040 The University of Michigan alone spends more than $30 million on 241 DEI staffers.

00:29:41.060 And then he also points to the UK as well as an example of how it's not going away.

00:29:44.940 So I do think there is a counter-argument,

00:29:46.900 and I think most of the points of the counter-argument are valid.

00:29:50.640 But for me, again, the point is not that it's going to overnight vanish.

00:29:54.300 It's that we have gotten past the peak of this,

00:29:57.960 and slowly I think the aims for diversity as a goal will not go away,

00:30:03.360 but particularly the woke scolding within parts of our culture

00:30:07.660 are slowly starting to die down in regards to some parts of cancel culture

00:30:12.000 are nowhere near as effective as they used to be,

00:30:15.380 which is something even the Telegraph has noticed.

00:30:18.240 So in favour of the argument that I'm presenting here,

00:30:20.580 obviously one of the big ones, you have corporations like BlackRock

00:30:24.740 quitting their Net Zero initiative.

00:30:27.460 They left the Net Zero Asset Managers Initiative,

00:30:31.240 which was a UN-backed group of institutional investors

00:30:34.520 who say that they want to save the world from climate Armageddon.

00:30:38.100 They joined that a few years back.

00:30:39.900 Now they're leaving it.

00:30:41.680 Meta, in particular, unsurprisingly,

00:30:43.800 given that Mark Zuckerberg has gone through quite the PR rebranding

00:30:48.460 and made his Joe Rogan appearance the other week as well.

00:30:51.800 Did you see Morgoth's very viral tweet that said

00:30:54.260 that basically the Joe Rogan experience has become a confessional booth

00:30:57.300 for these, let's say...

00:30:59.400 Recovering Wokies.

00:31:00.560 Yeah, yeah.

00:31:01.340 So they go on and they go through three hours of bro talk

00:31:03.880 and come out completely reborn.

00:31:06.160 Yes.

00:31:06.420 I think part of it is sincere.

00:31:07.660 I do think there is a bit of trial by fire in that.

00:31:10.260 I think he's absolutely right

00:31:11.360 because you basically have to go on a conversation for three hours

00:31:15.260 and prove that you're a normal person

00:31:16.980 and come across somewhat likeable.

00:31:19.720 Now, for the kind of image that Zuckerberg, in particular,

00:31:22.480 had just a few years ago...

00:31:24.240 He's like Data from Star Trek.

00:31:25.260 Yeah, that must have been a particularly difficult challenge for him.

00:31:29.560 I've not actually watched it,

00:31:30.820 but I have seen the one small clip that people have been posting

00:31:33.680 where Joe Rogan's kind of throwing a little dig at him

00:31:36.960 where he's like,

00:31:37.900 you were one of the most censorious people in the world

00:31:40.540 only a few years ago

00:31:41.480 and now I'm supposed to believe you've just flipped

00:31:43.380 and you're one of the good guys now.

00:31:45.100 And again, I think that's pointing to something that I believe,

00:31:48.000 which is a lot of this might just be rebranding.

00:31:50.380 Some of it, yes,

00:31:51.620 but also don't underestimate the social pressures of him

00:31:55.600 getting involved in MMA

00:31:56.740 because the person he's appointed in Nick Clegg's stead

00:31:59.300 is Dana White.

00:32:00.900 Dana White being a very close friend of Joe Rogan,

00:32:03.040 head of the UFC,

00:32:04.620 very much ingratiated with Team Trump.

00:32:06.780 It seems like rather than appointing some Nick Clegg equivalent,

00:32:12.360 like a former right-wing politician from anywhere,

00:32:14.580 he just picked one of his mates because he likes wrestling.

00:32:17.440 So it might actually be a personal conversion here.

00:32:20.820 But it's also tactically useful within the administration, probably.

00:32:24.060 I mean, Hogan recently got booed out of the building

00:32:26.580 at the first Netflix Raw,

00:32:28.060 so perhaps he should start getting Hogan

00:32:30.000 onto some of the board meetings as well

00:32:31.800 so he can flex on anybody.

00:32:34.320 But yeah, they've announced,

00:32:36.220 Meta has,

00:32:37.160 that they are dismantling their diversity,

00:32:39.280 equity, and inclusion programs across the company.

00:32:42.340 And he's also,

00:32:43.800 points out here,

00:32:45.440 Zuckerberg, of course,

00:32:46.380 donated $1 million to Trump's inauguration fund

00:32:50.820 and hired a Republican as a public affairs chief.

00:32:55.020 Isn't he attending as well?

00:32:57.080 I'd be shocked if he didn't.

00:32:58.820 Zuckerberg are attending.

00:33:00.100 I know Keir Starmer hasn't been invited,

00:33:01.820 which is...

00:33:02.240 No.

00:33:03.040 Interesting, that.

00:33:03.800 That is interesting.

00:33:04.700 I also heard that Netanyahu hadn't been invited as well,

00:33:07.800 which was interesting,

00:33:08.640 because Trump's very...

00:33:10.380 I have to beef up the security as well.

00:33:12.780 It's quite a big deal.

00:33:14.060 Yeah.

00:33:14.440 Look after him.

00:33:14.980 So it's always interesting with the inaugurations,

00:33:17.340 who gets invited and who doesn't,

00:33:18.720 because it really shows who's being snubbed

00:33:20.840 and who's being favoured.

00:33:22.400 So if Zuckerberg's going to show up,

00:33:23.720 that does show a depth...

00:33:25.120 I mean, there's obviously a realignment

00:33:26.620 with the Silicon Valley tech bros with Trump.

00:33:29.960 But I would also argue that that's...

00:33:32.080 It's going to go both ways.

00:33:33.980 That's not going to be a one-sided thing

00:33:36.240 where the tech bros just give everything Trump wants.

00:33:39.200 They're going to have their own things

00:33:40.580 that they want out of it.

00:33:41.540 Well, they're also going to have some internal pressures,

00:33:43.040 and this was the conversation

00:33:44.140 that Musk and Vivek were having on Twitter

00:33:46.660 over Christmas

00:33:47.300 when the rest of us were tucking into Turkey

00:33:48.960 about H1B.

00:33:50.780 They're going to have...

00:33:52.640 Do you reckon he got drunk on Christmas

00:33:56.020 and that's why he got drunk?

00:33:56.940 The time of the tweet, maybe, will tell you that?

00:33:58.680 I don't know if Musk drinks, does he?

00:34:01.280 I don't think so.

00:34:02.480 Well, some say that he, like, what,

00:34:03.720 microdoses ketamine as a medication or something.

00:34:08.300 I hesitate to speculate on it.

00:34:10.000 Yeah, we shouldn't...

00:34:10.880 No, I've just...

00:34:11.460 I've been told as much, but anyway...

00:34:13.620 Anyway, we'll move on from that one, I think.

00:34:15.500 Do you buy the sort of Pete Woke thing?

00:34:17.740 I don't...

00:34:18.220 Right.

00:34:19.160 I think the...

00:34:21.380 I don't think it'll ever reach a fever pitch

00:34:23.920 like it did after Floyd.

00:34:25.940 Yes, I agree with that.

00:34:26.760 I think that was a particular thing

00:34:27.680 to do with lockdown and everything else.

00:34:29.780 The mania of Black Lives Matter

00:34:32.300 was incredible.

00:34:34.660 The way it washed over the whole West,

00:34:36.800 particularly the Protestant West,

00:34:38.420 Anglosphere.

00:34:39.600 Astonishing.

00:34:40.820 And I agree with you that that is an event,

00:34:44.100 an event.

00:34:46.100 Unfortunately for them,

00:34:47.080 the lack of correspondence with the reality

00:34:49.180 didn't stop that.

00:34:50.700 You know, there isn't a racial disparity

00:34:52.860 in police shootings.

00:34:54.480 Friars' report proved that was the case.

00:34:56.320 A lot of the nostrums and ideas

00:34:57.580 were completely false,

00:34:59.200 but it didn't stop it washing over.

00:35:00.620 I mean, it doesn't have to be false

00:35:01.480 to be effective.

00:35:02.780 And I agree that was a particular moment.

00:35:04.620 And I also agree that things,

00:35:07.260 there have been some domain wins,

00:35:09.780 say some trans ideology has been knocked back

00:35:12.100 because it's harmful and dangerous

00:35:13.820 for children and so on.

00:35:14.860 So those are victories.

00:35:16.720 But I don't,

00:35:17.520 I think Eric Kaufman's probably right.

00:35:19.300 I think we're a long way from,

00:35:20.860 you can't tell.

00:35:22.320 This is a belief system

00:35:23.940 which is deeply embedded in the academy

00:35:26.240 and the media.

00:35:27.320 Well, you can't shift the culture

00:35:29.500 as violently as we have

00:35:31.240 over the past few decades

00:35:32.320 and expect it to,

00:35:34.020 you know,

00:35:34.680 shift overnight.

00:35:35.980 Both Silicon Valley and the Democrat Party

00:35:37.700 are entirely captured by true believers.

00:35:39.460 And this is what Musk and Babak

00:35:40.820 are going to face as pressures.

00:35:42.900 There are going to be,

00:35:44.020 as we spoke about in the last segment,

00:35:45.520 very nepotistic,

00:35:47.000 clannish hiring practices

00:35:48.780 among a lot of the Indian personnel

00:35:51.580 as we have seen

00:35:52.580 with the fact that

00:35:53.280 as soon as they've had

00:35:54.500 a large influx of Indian migration,

00:35:56.200 lots of the Silicon Valley tech owners

00:35:58.000 are now Indian

00:35:58.620 and will only hire Indians.

00:35:59.860 So they will still want DEI practices in place

00:36:02.760 because they can use that

00:36:03.800 to argue that's going up.

00:36:05.900 That's a very,

00:36:06.720 so that's in the United States

00:36:07.960 in a particular market,

00:36:08.720 in a particular place.

00:36:09.620 I think one of the issues

00:36:10.720 with DEI policy generally,

00:36:12.360 more generally,

00:36:13.360 is that it's not effective

00:36:15.040 and it's, you know,

00:36:15.860 it's literally divisive.

00:36:16.900 It doesn't work.

00:36:17.760 It alienates people.

00:36:18.900 It polarizes people

00:36:19.620 and it costs money.

00:36:20.760 So the corporates that are saying,

00:36:22.180 actually, this really hasn't worked.

00:36:23.280 It's terrible

00:36:23.820 are stopping it for that reason.

00:36:25.460 I think that's an interesting thing

00:36:26.940 that's brought up

00:36:27.540 in one of the other articles

00:36:28.460 that I've got

00:36:29.080 that Connor actually sent me,

00:36:31.880 which was the Financial Times article

00:36:33.680 where one of them,

00:36:35.640 a consultant

00:36:36.340 who counsels corporate leaders,

00:36:39.720 says that

00:36:40.560 they don't want to be

00:36:41.880 all of these companies

00:36:42.780 that have rolled back on it

00:36:43.960 and Forbes has an article

00:36:45.120 where they point out,

00:36:45.840 you know,

00:36:46.300 McDonald's are abandoning this,

00:36:48.020 Walmart did,

00:36:49.260 Ford Motor Company,

00:36:50.560 Harley Davidson,

00:36:51.580 as well as Meta and others.

00:36:52.740 The guy in this article says

00:36:54.760 they don't want to be caught out

00:36:56.080 promising and not delivering

00:36:57.540 companies that are still

00:36:58.560 committed to diversity

00:36:59.900 and inclusion,

00:37:00.580 but they just don't want

00:37:01.540 to guarantee outcomes

00:37:02.800 because a lot of the time

00:37:04.060 they set these lofty goals

00:37:05.320 for themselves

00:37:05.680 and they're not hitting it.

00:37:07.140 Yeah, we may,

00:37:07.800 I mean,

00:37:08.060 something that your viewers

00:37:09.460 should be aware of

00:37:10.100 is the Labour Party

00:37:11.460 in its manifesto

00:37:12.480 had this idea

00:37:13.180 of race league tables

00:37:15.160 in corporations.

00:37:16.300 So, you know,

00:37:16.880 it would oblige corporations

00:37:18.140 if they haven't done this yet,

00:37:19.200 but they promised to.

00:37:20.400 Maybe it's in a manifesto

00:37:21.540 that has no chance

00:37:22.280 of being enacted,

00:37:23.480 but they did promise it

00:37:24.560 and I think it's utterly insane.

00:37:26.860 So that if they do

00:37:27.980 enact that policy,

00:37:29.660 larger corporations

00:37:30.640 will have to make

00:37:31.320 a league table

00:37:32.060 of different ethnic backgrounds.

00:37:34.220 And I can't think

00:37:35.720 of anything more divisive.

00:37:38.180 Literally, you know,

00:37:38.800 literally.

00:37:39.040 Would they have

00:37:39.340 weighted schools?

00:37:40.680 So, you know,

00:37:41.600 so British Hindus are here

00:37:43.220 and, you know,

00:37:43.800 everyone's here.

00:37:44.760 And isn't that basically

00:37:45.520 what Harvard was doing,

00:37:46.700 which is what got it

00:37:47.780 struck down

00:37:48.280 by the Supreme Court?

00:37:49.760 Well, Harvard, no,

00:37:50.460 that was bias in selection.

00:37:53.500 That was racial bias

00:37:54.560 in selection for undergraduates.

00:37:56.140 That's a slightly

00:37:56.660 different thing.

00:37:57.120 And the, you know,

00:37:58.000 East Asian population

00:37:59.960 in the United States

00:38:01.460 was discriminated against.

00:38:02.780 I have family members

00:38:03.520 that suffered from that.

00:38:04.600 That was basic racism.

00:38:07.260 And so we'll see

00:38:08.260 where that goes.

00:38:08.740 But this is a slightly

00:38:09.300 different thing.

00:38:10.640 I don't know.

00:38:11.460 I think the other point

00:38:13.160 on Pete Woke

00:38:14.420 is that the institutions

00:38:16.780 that are putting this

00:38:17.460 into practice

00:38:17.980 are doing something

00:38:18.700 which the younger members

00:38:19.680 of the institutions,

00:38:20.560 those organizations want.

00:38:21.960 So the driving force

00:38:22.960 of the people on comms

00:38:23.980 or slightly younger,

00:38:25.360 they're true believers

00:38:26.480 in this progressive stuff.

00:38:27.500 They totally believe it.

00:38:28.740 The people my age

00:38:29.660 that are head of the corporation

00:38:30.620 don't really believe,

00:38:31.720 sort of bullied

00:38:32.380 into doing it.

00:38:33.700 And the key point is,

00:38:34.740 do you think...

00:38:35.460 It was a perfect example.

00:38:37.120 Exactly.

00:38:37.720 And they do it

00:38:38.160 because they're bullying.

00:38:38.660 Oh, we better give way to this.

00:38:41.120 So that's one thing.

00:38:42.660 We've had that, right?

00:38:43.520 But what happens

00:38:44.460 when those people retire

00:38:45.900 and then the true believers

00:38:46.780 actually get the levers

00:38:47.860 of control

00:38:48.620 in the organization?

00:38:49.540 So the true believers

00:38:50.460 are aligned

00:38:51.060 with the power of the...

00:38:52.240 I think it could...

00:38:52.860 Well, it matters whether...

00:38:54.700 Because with Meta

00:38:55.540 in particular,

00:38:56.920 they had a chief diversity officer,

00:38:59.580 Maxine Williams,

00:39:00.540 who's transitioning

00:39:01.600 to a new role

00:39:02.800 focused on accessibility

00:39:04.100 and engagement

00:39:05.580 instead of being

00:39:06.460 in that DEI role.

00:39:07.920 So what's happened there

00:39:09.520 is she's not been fired,

00:39:11.040 but she has been sidelined.

00:39:12.580 So the question will be

00:39:13.960 whether these companies

00:39:14.860 with all of the true believers

00:39:16.140 who staff them...

00:39:17.000 Because when you talk about

00:39:17.660 the younger generations,

00:39:18.480 I do think,

00:39:19.280 as Connor often points out,

00:39:21.000 that there is a split...

00:39:22.600 Polarized.

00:39:23.140 ...in Gen Z,

00:39:24.740 where there's the true believers

00:39:26.820 and then there's a sizable

00:39:28.540 faction of them

00:39:29.240 who do not believe

00:39:30.360 in any of this at all

00:39:31.240 and oftentimes are more

00:39:32.680 just fed up and tired

00:39:34.080 of all of this.

00:39:35.280 So the question will be

00:39:36.280 are these people

00:39:37.240 going to get sidelined

00:39:38.340 and will they be replaced

00:39:39.820 or will they be left

00:39:41.700 in a position that

00:39:42.860 if the Democrats get back in

00:39:44.620 and start to implement this again,

00:39:46.040 they can be shifted

00:39:46.740 straight back into the position

00:39:47.980 that they occupied before?

00:39:49.260 Well, politically,

00:39:50.280 and this is interesting

00:39:50.980 for the Democrats

00:39:51.580 when they get back in,

00:39:52.580 Democrats have nowhere to go

00:39:54.040 but double down on woke.

00:39:55.000 I did an analysis of this

00:39:56.340 for Courage Media

00:39:57.680 a little while ago.

00:39:58.860 If you look at the quadrants,

00:40:00.960 there's very few Democrats

00:40:02.220 that basically occupy

00:40:02.900 the SDP position

00:40:03.800 because Trump and Trump

00:40:04.520 have taken that.

00:40:05.200 Top left.

00:40:06.080 Vance is all over that.

00:40:07.160 Exactly.

00:40:07.460 He's taken economic protectionism.

00:40:08.660 They're not really going to

00:40:09.120 touch entitlements

00:40:09.780 other than try and make them

00:40:10.960 actually not hemorrhage the deficit

00:40:12.980 and they've taken

00:40:13.900 cultural conservatism.

00:40:15.120 So those blue dog

00:40:16.200 cohort of Democrats,

00:40:17.380 the sort of culturally sensible

00:40:19.140 economic protectionist lot

00:40:20.600 that people thought

00:40:21.460 Bernie Sanders might have been

00:40:22.480 but he turned out

00:40:23.000 to be a true believer,

00:40:23.680 they are the smallest caucus

00:40:25.480 you've ever seen

00:40:26.020 and about half of them

00:40:27.260 are social progressives now

00:40:28.280 even in that caucus.

00:40:29.280 The rest of the party

00:40:30.020 are like Jasmine Crockett,

00:40:31.620 AOC,

00:40:32.240 like demented leftists

00:40:33.440 who have been selected

00:40:34.160 on the basis of their race.

00:40:35.660 So they've got

00:40:36.920 a very short cohort

00:40:38.740 of people they can pivot to

00:40:41.260 to get away from

00:40:42.120 their unpopular progressives.

00:40:44.340 And also, Connor,

00:40:45.080 do you remember

00:40:45.440 that people don't,

00:40:46.380 I mean,

00:40:46.600 if they do believe this,

00:40:47.900 they're marinated in this stuff

00:40:49.860 and they,

00:40:50.840 it is religion.

00:40:52.160 Obviously,

00:40:52.600 there's been a lot

00:40:53.140 written about that.

00:40:53.880 It is a form of religion

00:40:54.780 and they're not going

00:40:55.680 to just volunteer

00:40:56.340 and give it up.

00:40:57.280 And as I said before,

00:40:57.840 it doesn't matter

00:40:58.380 that it has low correspondence

00:40:59.340 to reality.

00:41:00.380 Reality is somewhere

00:41:01.100 that's completely different.

00:41:01.860 It's costly, divisive,

00:41:04.120 damaging,

00:41:04.880 but it doesn't really matter.

00:41:05.720 We still believe it.

00:41:06.560 And that's,

00:41:06.840 you know,

00:41:07.380 Thomas Kuhn's

00:41:07.980 an interesting one

00:41:08.500 to look at.

00:41:08.960 Kuhnian look at this

00:41:10.020 is to say that people

00:41:10.880 hang on to these ideas

00:41:11.900 like the old

00:41:12.460 Communist Party members

00:41:13.960 hanging on to their cards

00:41:15.300 in their wallets

00:41:16.220 until, you know,

00:41:16.780 forget,

00:41:17.960 yeah,

00:41:18.340 the gulag,

00:41:18.960 forget Hungary in 56,

00:41:20.600 forget Czechoslovakia in 68,

00:41:21.900 it was fine,

00:41:22.400 nothing to see here.

00:41:23.240 I'm still a member

00:41:24.480 of the Communist Party.

00:41:25.380 When I read Solzhenitsyn

00:41:26.660 when he was talking

00:41:27.480 about how a lot

00:41:28.620 of the true believers

00:41:29.520 in the gulags

00:41:30.240 would be trying to plead

00:41:31.180 with the guards

00:41:31.740 saying,

00:41:32.060 no, no,

00:41:32.280 I'm one of the good ones.

00:41:33.260 You can let me out.

00:41:33.980 I really am, yeah.

00:41:34.740 There was a woman

00:41:35.460 whose daughter wrote to her

00:41:36.420 and said,

00:41:36.760 mother,

00:41:37.560 if you're innocent,

00:41:38.440 tell me

00:41:38.900 because I cannot bear

00:41:39.960 to see you locked up

00:41:40.640 and if you're innocent,

00:41:41.240 I won't join the Komsomol

00:41:42.300 but if you are guilty,

00:41:43.760 I will and I will hate you forever.

00:41:44.840 And she couldn't bear the idea

00:41:46.100 that her daughter

00:41:46.580 would betray the party.

00:41:47.700 So even though she was innocent,

00:41:48.560 she said,

00:41:48.900 I'm guilty during the Komsomol.

00:41:50.100 But it's vital to understand

00:41:51.740 the sort of true believer thing

00:41:53.600 and people not giving it up

00:41:55.400 and I'll flip it back

00:41:57.060 to a current issue here,

00:41:58.140 the rape gangs.

00:41:59.740 Every single progressive

00:42:01.040 that's interviewed

00:42:01.740 on television about it

00:42:02.840 is really discombobulated,

00:42:04.400 having a massive difficulty

00:42:05.600 with this.

00:42:06.640 Why?

00:42:07.460 It's because they're educated.

00:42:09.760 Their whole belief system

00:42:10.680 is victims and oppressors.

00:42:11.900 Victims are, you know,

00:42:13.480 minorities of various kinds

00:42:14.760 and oppressors are white males,

00:42:16.140 basically,

00:42:16.720 or whites in general.

00:42:19.140 And we found a situation

00:42:21.320 where you've got

00:42:22.040 a large cohort

00:42:22.960 of white victims

00:42:24.760 and the people

00:42:27.260 that are responsible

00:42:28.260 for this racially targeted

00:42:29.680 bit of violence

00:42:30.520 are a protected minority

00:42:32.240 in their view

00:42:32.840 and they just can't handle it

00:42:34.440 because it flips

00:42:35.140 their whole narrative.

00:42:36.520 And I watch them,

00:42:37.580 I look at the interviews,

00:42:38.440 Connor,

00:42:38.620 and I think,

00:42:38.960 you just can't deal with this.

00:42:40.860 So what they do

00:42:41.540 in the interview

00:42:42.060 is deflect into also,

00:42:43.260 you know,

00:42:43.620 oh, most offenders are white,

00:42:44.860 it's a white majority population.

00:42:46.140 But sorry,

00:42:46.840 that's a category.

00:42:47.700 We're talking about

00:42:48.400 a particular thing

00:42:49.260 which is racial violence.

00:42:50.900 Racial violence

00:42:51.540 against a particular group.

00:42:53.780 And the deflection,

00:42:55.120 it's almost painful.

00:42:56.160 And what I'm witnessing

00:42:57.020 is people that are,

00:42:59.360 they have this ideology

00:43:00.380 and they're not going

00:43:01.000 to give it up.

00:43:01.480 They're really struggling.

00:43:02.260 And the terrible thing

00:43:03.600 and the terrible thing

00:43:03.620 for society is

00:43:04.580 that there is literally,

00:43:06.660 and history proves this,

00:43:07.820 there is no limit of pain

00:43:09.280 that those people

00:43:10.280 would have us go through

00:43:12.080 or other people go through

00:43:13.120 in defense of their ideology.

00:43:15.280 Communism,

00:43:15.820 all the other isms prove it.

00:43:17.080 Once you have an ideology,

00:43:18.700 it doesn't matter

00:43:19.240 how many girls are raped.

00:43:20.860 It doesn't matter

00:43:21.520 because we are right

00:43:23.000 and they'll suffer

00:43:23.700 any amount of that.

00:43:25.240 It's just irrelevant to them.

00:43:26.480 So you've got to understand,

00:43:27.640 I don't think this is going away.

00:43:28.520 I think we have to fight it

00:43:29.500 every day.

00:43:30.780 I agree with what you're saying.

00:43:32.440 I would say that

00:43:33.060 what you're talking about

00:43:34.000 in sort of the rape gang denialism

00:43:35.860 is a separate phenomenon

00:43:37.480 to woke as it has been

00:43:39.860 over say the past

00:43:40.860 nine or ten years,

00:43:42.000 which I would say

00:43:42.440 it's a big subject.

00:43:44.060 Woke as I would characterize it

00:43:46.020 definitely falls into

00:43:48.340 a lot of the gay race communism

00:43:50.320 as Tucker put it.

00:43:51.520 But in the way

00:43:52.060 that I'm talking about it here

00:43:53.180 is kind of the scolding

00:43:55.180 and more cultural aspects of it

00:43:57.380 are going to be toned down a lot,

00:43:59.280 especially under Trump.

00:44:00.920 And in particular,

00:44:01.460 this article is quite interesting

00:44:02.680 regarding the scolding thing.

00:44:04.660 One of the things

00:44:05.200 that Wokes loved to do

00:44:06.700 was language police,

00:44:08.120 tone police people constantly,

00:44:09.960 basically as a form

00:44:10.860 of petty power politics

00:44:12.560 that they would play.

00:44:13.780 And so that's actually

00:44:15.000 in Wall Street in particular,

00:44:16.780 they're pointing out

00:44:17.560 a top banker

00:44:19.100 because we all care so much

00:44:20.420 about the well-being

00:44:21.220 of top bankers,

00:44:22.620 said,

00:44:23.300 I feel liberated.

00:44:24.480 We don't have to self-censor

00:44:25.540 as much as we used to.

00:44:26.660 We can now say

00:44:27.960 retard and pussy again

00:44:29.740 without the fear

00:44:30.640 of getting cancelled.

00:44:32.000 It's a new dawn.

00:44:33.760 So,

00:44:34.660 silly,

00:44:35.920 vulgar as that can seem,

00:44:37.440 the fact that they are,

00:44:38.860 some people are feeling

00:44:39.880 a bit more able

00:44:41.320 to express themselves

00:44:42.500 in ways that would have

00:44:43.540 previously got them

00:44:44.520 told off,

00:44:45.880 does say something.

00:44:47.120 That's in that domain though.

00:44:48.660 And I think,

00:44:49.220 but I don't,

00:44:50.120 I don't think we're about to have,

00:44:52.040 particularly in the culture,

00:44:53.460 in the arts,

00:44:55.060 I don't think that's going to happen.

00:44:55.960 And I,

00:44:56.640 people tell me

00:44:57.760 that it's still

00:44:59.020 as difficult

00:45:00.160 for an actor

00:45:01.900 or someone

00:45:02.700 in the entertainment industry

00:45:03.640 to say what's true

00:45:06.000 on these things.

00:45:06.480 Well,

00:45:06.620 I mean,

00:45:06.840 that's Hollywood in particular.

00:45:08.580 Maybe less so

00:45:09.240 now that it's burned down.

00:45:10.940 But,

00:45:11.220 well,

00:45:11.500 look at the reaction

00:45:12.240 to Zachary Levi.

00:45:13.140 He came out

00:45:13.560 and some of the RFK

00:45:14.380 and then Trump

00:45:15.160 and he's just been made up.

00:45:16.300 Hollywood in all of California

00:45:18.460 and a lot across

00:45:20.000 the West Coast in particular

00:45:21.160 is a very closed club.

00:45:23.760 Music industry is same.

00:45:24.620 Of course,

00:45:25.740 that's based in Los Angeles

00:45:27.240 for the most part as well.

00:45:29.040 But I would say in America,

00:45:30.960 there has been,

00:45:31.860 more so than in Britain,

00:45:34.100 a very concentrated attempt

00:45:35.620 to build up

00:45:36.320 alternative media platforms

00:45:38.000 for people

00:45:39.340 to get exposure on

00:45:41.640 so that if you are,

00:45:43.020 say,

00:45:43.220 cancelled from Hollywood

00:45:44.980 and the mainstream,

00:45:45.900 then you're able to go

00:45:46.680 on the alternative media tour

00:45:48.060 and become part

00:45:49.080 of that establishment instead.

00:45:50.340 Who was the guy

00:45:51.740 from the Deadpool films

00:45:53.680 with the curly hair,

00:45:54.600 the comedian?

00:45:55.920 Did you watch the film?

00:45:56.520 Not Tim Miller.

00:45:58.180 I know who you're talking about.

00:45:59.200 Yeah,

00:45:59.400 you know,

00:45:59.900 he got cancelled

00:46:00.860 and then he was able

00:46:02.260 to start going

00:46:02.860 and working with Daily Wire,

00:46:04.420 for instance.

00:46:05.420 And so,

00:46:06.200 this article from

00:46:07.320 The Telegraph

00:46:07.740 is interesting

00:46:08.200 because it kind of

00:46:09.280 highlights something

00:46:10.680 that I've been feeling

00:46:11.620 recently,

00:46:12.140 which is with

00:46:12.780 the establishment

00:46:13.740 of alternative media platforms,

00:46:16.420 particularly in America,

00:46:17.340 especially if you can go

00:46:18.360 on something like Joe Rogan.

00:46:20.680 Cancel culture

00:46:21.560 has lost a lot of its sting

00:46:23.140 as long as you're already

00:46:24.340 relatively high profile.

00:46:26.440 Obviously,

00:46:26.920 you still,

00:46:27.360 if you're just a normal worker

00:46:29.000 or somebody has

00:46:30.360 a nobody social media following

00:46:33.300 and somebody picks up on you

00:46:34.800 and decides to start targeting you,

00:46:36.460 you still don't want

00:46:37.060 that happening to you.

00:46:37.940 But if you're,

00:46:38.740 say,

00:46:38.820 mid-level and above,

00:46:40.540 if you get cancelled,

00:46:41.560 it can kind of be a signal

00:46:42.820 to the alternative media.

00:46:44.640 Let's get that guy.

00:46:45.600 It's a bit of a badge

00:46:46.580 of honour for people

00:46:47.500 which has taken

00:46:48.180 some of the sting

00:46:49.120 out of it.

00:46:49.940 Cancel culture only works

00:46:50.920 if it comes from

00:46:51.380 your own side now.

00:46:52.380 Yeah,

00:46:52.640 and they point out

00:46:53.440 that Gen Z

00:46:54.660 seems to have gotten

00:46:56.300 bored of it.

00:46:57.500 Nothing makes art

00:46:58.540 more anodyne

00:46:59.340 and innervating

00:47:00.240 than an endless list

00:47:01.220 of don'ts

00:47:01.720 and approved by

00:47:02.460 sociology students

00:47:03.940 tick list.

00:47:04.460 And this is something

00:47:05.000 I've noticed as well.

00:47:06.820 I'm like old.

00:47:08.020 I'm an old Zoomer.

00:47:09.640 I'm an old man now.

00:47:11.740 I'm Generation X.

00:47:13.020 I'm so sorry

00:47:14.140 to hear that.

00:47:14.900 Just,

00:47:15.380 literally just,

00:47:16.060 it's 1965.

00:47:16.980 Ah,

00:47:17.380 right.

00:47:18.340 Any older one

00:47:19.660 of a boomer.

00:47:20.780 You at least say

00:47:22.100 It's not me.

00:47:22.940 You're not spiritually

00:47:24.780 a boomer.

00:47:25.180 No,

00:47:25.400 no,

00:47:25.440 no.

00:47:25.700 It's all fine.

00:47:26.980 But young Zoomers

00:47:28.340 really seem increasingly

00:47:30.020 not to care.

00:47:31.360 Yeah.

00:47:31.740 Not to care at all

00:47:32.840 because like the older

00:47:33.740 Zoomers of my cohort,

00:47:35.160 they're a bit closer

00:47:35.820 to millennials

00:47:36.420 who are moralistic

00:47:38.680 busybodies

00:47:39.440 for the most part.

00:47:40.760 Like the youngers,

00:47:41.440 they've just seen

00:47:42.420 that culture hates them.

00:47:45.080 Most art these days

00:47:46.580 that's produced

00:47:47.100 by the mainstream

00:47:47.740 is terrible

00:47:48.420 and they just get

00:47:49.640 told off like

00:47:50.640 everybody is their parents

00:47:52.020 for the slightest infraction.

00:47:53.960 So a lot of them

00:47:54.480 have retreated

00:47:55.120 into an almost

00:47:55.680 Sam Hyde-esque

00:47:56.580 post-irony

00:47:57.600 where they just

00:47:58.200 don't care anymore.

00:47:59.420 So they're trying

00:48:00.400 to push boundaries

00:48:01.500 and trying

00:48:02.380 to be offensive

00:48:03.780 in a way

00:48:04.860 that allows them

00:48:05.600 to be transgressive

00:48:06.820 and edgy

00:48:07.180 because,

00:48:07.860 you know,

00:48:08.220 they're kids.

00:48:09.500 Kids look at

00:48:10.080 what older people

00:48:10.820 are doing

00:48:11.220 and say,

00:48:11.440 I'm going to do

00:48:11.980 the opposite of that.

00:48:13.260 So with them

00:48:13.760 it's maybe

00:48:14.320 a little bit

00:48:15.040 less effective

00:48:16.200 although obviously

00:48:17.140 you still have,

00:48:18.180 especially within the girls,

00:48:19.360 we've seen the gender divides

00:48:20.740 on left and right swinging.

00:48:22.860 Depends on the country though.

00:48:23.940 And it depends on the country.

00:48:25.120 In Germany and France

00:48:26.400 because immigration

00:48:26.980 is a women's safety issue

00:48:28.200 and because Jordan Bardello

00:48:29.040 is attractive to French women,

00:48:30.240 you've got parity

00:48:31.120 voting for national rally

00:48:32.240 between men and women.

00:48:33.340 And it just comes down

00:48:34.560 to two things.

00:48:35.260 One,

00:48:36.180 unlike the millennials,

00:48:37.560 Gen Z's

00:48:38.360 internet usage experience

00:48:39.640 is less siloed

00:48:40.500 so they can self-create

00:48:41.800 their own satellite communities

00:48:43.100 and that means

00:48:43.460 they do have

00:48:43.940 the parallel

00:48:44.600 social capital base.

00:48:46.180 So if you get cancelled

00:48:46.960 by one group

00:48:47.480 you can go to another.

00:48:48.580 And also,

00:48:49.020 if you're a straight white man

00:48:50.000 who's exceedingly competent,

00:48:51.560 why would you play

00:48:52.160 into a social order

00:48:52.860 that makes you

00:48:53.300 a public enemy number one?

00:48:54.500 And if you're a straight white woman

00:48:55.640 who likes straight white men

00:48:56.640 and wants to marry one,

00:48:57.700 why would you actively select

00:48:59.700 out of the eligible dating pool

00:49:02.880 men who can support you

00:49:04.420 having a family?

00:49:05.180 Like,

00:49:05.380 it's not in your own interest.

00:49:06.980 You don't get social capital,

00:49:07.780 you don't get economic capital,

00:49:08.800 so just break away

00:49:09.500 from the order.

00:49:10.500 Yeah,

00:49:10.820 and another thing

00:49:12.520 when it comes to the arts,

00:49:14.180 I think the mainstream

00:49:15.560 has sucked

00:49:16.180 for a very,

00:49:17.180 very long time.

00:49:18.340 For longer than just

00:49:19.320 when we hit peak woke.

00:49:20.840 So the fact that the internet

00:49:21.900 is more open these days

00:49:23.320 for a lot of people,

00:49:24.180 particularly,

00:49:25.040 I'm a musician,

00:49:25.960 I love listening to music,

00:49:27.100 I love finding new music,

00:49:28.580 the democratization

00:49:29.640 of access

00:49:30.740 to media platforms,

00:49:32.640 being that you don't have

00:49:33.640 to just stay

00:49:34.440 within the Hollywood

00:49:36.160 and LA music system,

00:49:37.940 means that you've still

00:49:39.820 got a chance

00:49:40.360 of making something.

00:49:41.100 The fact is as well,

00:49:42.200 even if you do make it big

00:49:43.280 in the music industry,

00:49:44.260 in the mainstream music industry,

00:49:46.220 you're not going to make

00:49:47.060 any money from it nowadays

00:49:48.200 anyway with streaming

00:49:49.580 and everything else.

00:49:50.460 So if anything,

00:49:51.220 it's probably better

00:49:52.100 for a lot of these people

00:49:53.480 to not give a damn

00:49:54.680 about the studio system

00:49:56.040 and say,

00:49:56.780 I'm going to try

00:49:57.320 and make it on my own.

00:49:58.140 I watched an interview

00:49:59.700 with the lead singer

00:50:00.660 of Avenged Sevenfold

00:50:02.220 recently,

00:50:03.840 you wouldn't like them,

00:50:05.580 where he was talking

00:50:07.040 about how even

00:50:08.140 for a really big band

00:50:09.620 like them,

00:50:10.340 they basically make

00:50:11.200 no money from it

00:50:12.820 because inflation

00:50:14.080 has caused all of the cost

00:50:15.520 of everything to do

00:50:16.340 with touring,

00:50:17.080 which used to be

00:50:17.740 where they'd make

00:50:18.320 all of their money

00:50:19.020 after selling albums

00:50:20.240 became not a way

00:50:21.900 to stop things.

00:50:21.960 It used to be albums,

00:50:22.700 yeah,

00:50:22.820 in the 70s.

00:50:23.340 It used to be the albums.

00:50:25.100 And it went to gigs.

00:50:26.160 Then it went to the touring

00:50:27.100 and now the touring

00:50:27.960 doesn't make any money.

00:50:29.220 So if anything,

00:50:29.820 you're probably best off going,

00:50:30.800 you know,

00:50:31.000 I'm going to be my own boss,

00:50:32.320 make my own music,

00:50:33.460 release it on Bandcamp

00:50:34.620 or stream it on Spotify

00:50:35.640 and I'll make what dribs

00:50:36.720 and drabs that I can

00:50:37.620 because it gives me

00:50:38.620 that artistic freedom.

00:50:39.880 So that means that

00:50:40.760 they're a bit more free

00:50:42.800 to not have to worry.

00:50:43.640 It's democratizing.

00:50:44.600 The atomization

00:50:45.260 of all this stuff

00:50:46.120 does give people freedom.

00:50:48.600 But I think coming together,

00:50:49.420 actually,

00:50:49.680 you know,

00:50:50.480 people assembling groups

00:50:52.100 that agree with

00:50:52.840 their basic outlook

00:50:54.000 is a good idea.

00:50:54.980 You need to do that.

00:50:55.700 It's a part of my thing.

00:50:57.040 Well,

00:50:57.220 people are building

00:50:58.200 their own institutions,

00:50:59.260 forming their own networks,

00:51:00.400 which can operate independently

00:51:02.240 of the larger system,

00:51:05.160 which I think is a good thing.

00:51:06.700 But again,

00:51:07.340 when it comes to

00:51:08.180 the overall direction

00:51:09.260 of where things are going,

00:51:10.660 for my thesis,

00:51:11.380 I think the main reason

00:51:12.940 is that

00:51:14.500 following October 7th,

00:51:16.680 there does seem to have been

00:51:17.620 a bit of a shift

00:51:18.340 given that WOTE

00:51:19.260 massively

00:51:20.740 seems to trend

00:51:22.100 in the direction

00:51:22.720 of anti-Israel,

00:51:24.080 pro-Palestine.

00:51:24.380 And you see

00:51:25.920 a lot of publications

00:51:27.500 pointing out

00:51:28.400 that it has become

00:51:29.940 a breeding ground

00:51:30.920 for anti-Semitism.

00:51:32.240 And this gives a

00:51:33.080 rather sad story

00:51:34.340 of basically

00:51:35.400 a naive Israeli woman

00:51:37.180 who was in Berlin

00:51:38.100 who went to

00:51:39.140 one of these

00:51:39.940 pro-Palestine marches.

00:51:41.820 I assume that she

00:51:42.460 was quite woke herself.

00:51:43.760 Ended up getting beaten up

00:51:45.000 by some of the people there.

00:51:46.820 And I can only imagine

00:51:47.800 that that was,

00:51:48.620 I would hope that that was

00:51:49.520 a bit of an eye-opening

00:51:50.260 moment for her.

00:51:51.180 Because I'd imagine

00:51:51.680 what it was,

00:51:52.400 was as I mentioned

00:51:53.560 with Mark Zuckerberg

00:51:54.580 and others.

00:51:55.500 Bill Ackman.

00:51:56.120 Yeah, yeah.

00:51:56.780 Bill Ackman.

00:51:57.260 They've probably

00:51:58.060 thought to themselves,

00:51:59.320 hold up,

00:52:00.600 everybody who believes

00:52:02.120 in this

00:52:02.680 hates me.

00:52:03.840 Who are my friends?

00:52:05.680 Purely for my

00:52:07.420 ethnic identity.

00:52:09.040 They don't see this

00:52:09.840 as something

00:52:10.320 disconnected from me.

00:52:11.320 They see me

00:52:12.100 as particularly

00:52:13.580 guilty

00:52:14.340 of the crimes

00:52:15.360 being committed

00:52:15.940 by a foreign government.

00:52:17.240 It's fascinating that

00:52:18.040 because I'm interested

00:52:19.700 in political coalitions,

00:52:21.660 you know,

00:52:22.060 leading a little

00:52:22.740 political party

00:52:23.920 and making progress.

00:52:25.020 We are a coalition

00:52:25.820 of a type,

00:52:26.960 but at least it's coherent.

00:52:28.440 I think the odd thing

00:52:29.600 about the progressive

00:52:31.040 woke coalition

00:52:31.880 is just how utterly

00:52:33.360 incoherent it is.

00:52:34.960 It's united only

00:52:35.860 by a dislike of the West.

00:52:37.140 You know,

00:52:37.300 both sides,

00:52:38.340 the progressives,

00:52:39.040 the white progressives

00:52:40.000 that drive it

00:52:40.560 in the universities

00:52:41.140 and the media

00:52:41.620 denigrate the West

00:52:43.100 constantly,

00:52:43.620 a little bit rebellious

00:52:44.700 that way.

00:52:45.580 And a lot of their

00:52:46.520 anti-Western friends

00:52:47.980 are as well.

00:52:49.240 But there's no coherence

00:52:50.540 between those two groups.

00:52:51.960 I mean,

00:52:52.140 take away the dislike

00:52:53.040 of the central culture,

00:52:54.420 they'd be at each other's throats.

00:52:55.620 Well,

00:52:55.820 this is what Marx wrote,

00:52:57.460 op-ed,

00:52:57.860 I think it was for

00:52:58.600 the New York Daily News

00:52:59.640 in the 19th century

00:53:00.460 and said that

00:53:01.040 Islam is a revolutionary ally

00:53:02.600 because it hates Christianity.

00:53:03.940 Yeah.

00:53:04.240 So that's all this is.

00:53:05.740 And also,

00:53:06.420 Mary Harrington's pointed this out

00:53:07.420 quite well.

00:53:07.980 But it's temporary

00:53:08.520 and contingent.

00:53:11.100 Yes.

00:53:11.420 So it's like,

00:53:12.000 there's a town in Michigan,

00:53:13.420 actually,

00:53:13.620 Rod Little wrote about this,

00:53:15.180 a town in Michigan

00:53:15.940 where it has a very high

00:53:18.200 Islamic population

00:53:19.100 and they built up power

00:53:21.080 until they had a majority.

00:53:22.640 And then the alliance

00:53:24.160 they had with the LGBT group,

00:53:26.320 I think it was,

00:53:26.740 you know,

00:53:27.100 mainly lesbian and gay,

00:53:30.340 not T so much.

00:53:32.000 And then the Islamist got in

00:53:33.880 and said,

00:53:34.820 no,

00:53:34.960 we're not having that.

00:53:36.100 Bye, see you.

00:53:37.240 There was a white woman

00:53:37.940 who had converted to Islam

00:53:39.080 and also said she was a lesbian

00:53:39.940 on the town council,

00:53:40.880 weeping because they took

00:53:41.680 the pride flag down.

00:53:42.520 Yeah, yeah.

00:53:42.880 And it's like,

00:53:43.720 you know,

00:53:43.980 it was a contingent alliance

00:53:45.840 to be up power.

00:53:46.860 What were they thinking there,

00:53:48.320 Connor?

00:53:48.520 What were they thinking?

00:53:49.240 It's the Omnicles, right?

00:53:50.420 This is what Mary's written about

00:53:51.420 in the pages of Unheard

00:53:52.300 is lots of it is

00:53:53.300 all of the algorithms

00:53:55.420 have fed these issues together

00:53:57.060 on the grounds

00:53:58.440 that they're both

00:53:59.220 hating the Western white people.

00:54:01.920 And so this is why

00:54:02.620 Greta Thunberg will go

00:54:03.540 from one day marching

00:54:04.520 for the climate

00:54:04.940 and the next day to Kefia.

00:54:06.160 It's just been presented

00:54:06.900 in her feed all the time

00:54:07.860 and this is where

00:54:08.340 she gets social capital from.

00:54:09.400 Sorry to cut you off.

00:54:10.100 I was just going to say

00:54:10.680 that example that you mentioned

00:54:11.920 of the white woman

00:54:12.740 who'd converted to Islam

00:54:13.860 weeping because she was

00:54:14.900 a lesbian at the pride flag

00:54:15.920 being taken there.

00:54:16.500 What you're describing there

00:54:17.640 is mental illness.

00:54:18.860 Yeah.

00:54:19.440 More than anything.

00:54:20.400 And it's sad to see

00:54:21.280 because I do,

00:54:22.860 I mean,

00:54:23.160 we've seen,

00:54:23.820 there have been studies done

00:54:25.000 that show that

00:54:25.580 liberals do tend to

00:54:27.920 mental illness

00:54:29.920 a lot more than people

00:54:30.820 who identify themselves

00:54:31.860 as conservative.

00:54:33.000 Yeah, higher anxiety,

00:54:34.180 all sorts of things.

00:54:35.240 So they're particularly

00:54:36.440 susceptible to things

00:54:37.660 that just don't make sense

00:54:38.980 because it gives them

00:54:39.720 a sense of identity

00:54:40.600 that maybe helps them

00:54:41.820 to try and,

00:54:43.020 in a weird way,

00:54:43.980 order the world

00:54:44.880 in a way that makes

00:54:45.640 a bit more sense,

00:54:46.560 even though it's

00:54:47.440 completely chaotic,

00:54:48.480 which is why it may

00:54:49.440 make more sense to them.

00:54:50.960 But anyway,

00:54:51.560 on the subject of

00:54:52.620 what I was talking about

00:54:53.940 a moment ago,

00:54:54.640 this is an interesting article

00:54:55.700 from,

00:54:56.280 I believe it was November

00:54:57.780 in Unheard

00:54:58.840 from Noah Carl,

00:55:00.140 who was talking about

00:55:01.240 left-wing academics,

00:55:02.480 now primary targets

00:55:03.240 targets of cancel culture.

00:55:04.960 Now, of course,

00:55:05.920 this is weighted

00:55:06.680 in one direction

00:55:07.700 because right-wing academics

00:55:09.180 seems to be a bit

00:55:10.080 of an oxymoron

00:55:11.140 these days,

00:55:11.860 given how the,

00:55:12.440 rare,

00:55:12.960 yeah,

00:55:13.240 the academies themselves

00:55:14.560 have,

00:55:14.840 Matt Goodwin said to leave,

00:55:15.960 so,

00:55:16.220 yeah,

00:55:16.500 Matt Goodwin said to leave

00:55:17.640 a lot of the academies

00:55:18.580 themselves,

00:55:19.200 just,

00:55:19.380 you know,

00:55:19.640 can I stop you,

00:55:20.340 in the 70s,

00:55:21.120 60s and 70s,

00:55:22.600 the phrase right-wing historian

00:55:24.400 was really quite normal.

00:55:26.020 It was really normal.

00:55:27.100 Right-wing historians,

00:55:28.280 so,

00:55:28.800 trying to think

00:55:29.340 if there's any

00:55:29.840 right-wing historians

00:55:30.920 right now,

00:55:32.400 David Stark,

00:55:32.860 David Starkey,

00:55:35.060 would you count

00:55:35.920 Theodore Darryl Impel?

00:55:37.200 I mean,

00:55:37.380 he's not really a historian,

00:55:38.700 he's a sociologist,

00:55:39.820 really.

00:55:40.220 Andrew Roberts

00:55:41.000 has got some very soft

00:55:42.060 views on immigration,

00:55:43.320 but he's very

00:55:43.840 pro-Churchill.

00:55:44.960 Anyway,

00:55:45.420 sorry,

00:55:45.780 Nigel Bigger,

00:55:47.780 maybe,

00:55:48.180 but again,

00:55:48.760 he's a theologist

00:55:49.500 primarily,

00:55:50.640 isn't he?

00:55:51.320 Yeah.

00:55:52.100 Priest.

00:55:53.340 Yes,

00:55:53.840 you're correct there.

00:55:54.740 Either way,

00:55:55.940 so this is weighted,

00:55:56.900 so take that into consideration,

00:55:58.080 but it's looking at

00:55:59.180 academic cancellations

00:56:00.560 as compiled

00:56:01.740 by

00:56:02.540 the Foundation

00:56:04.020 for Individual Rights

00:56:05.120 and Expression,

00:56:06.680 and it's taking

00:56:07.580 every incident

00:56:08.640 that should have been

00:56:09.480 counted as protected

00:56:10.640 under constitutional speech

00:56:12.040 and seeing if the people

00:56:13.320 who are doing it

00:56:14.120 would identify more

00:56:15.280 with the left

00:56:15.880 or from the right.

00:56:17.160 And you can see,

00:56:17.640 this is what I mean

00:56:18.500 regarding cancel culture,

00:56:20.260 why I think,

00:56:20.840 for the time being,

00:56:21.720 we've hit a bit of a peak,

00:56:23.340 because you can see

00:56:24.440 very clearly

00:56:25.160 in this graph

00:56:26.040 that it peaks

00:56:27.020 around 2019

00:56:28.480 to 2020,

00:56:29.560 2021,

00:56:30.560 and has been

00:56:31.200 steadily declining,

00:56:32.300 but now it seems

00:56:33.660 that more of them

00:56:34.460 that are sustaining

00:56:35.120 are coming from the right

00:56:36.220 according to this,

00:56:36.940 and if you go down,

00:56:37.920 he decided to

00:56:38.700 break it down

00:56:39.680 into a bit more detail

00:56:41.200 and saw that

00:56:42.780 massively,

00:56:44.120 a lot of the cancellations

00:56:45.360 that are coming

00:56:45.840 from the right

00:56:46.960 are coming over

00:56:48.960 the subject

00:56:49.560 of Israel

00:56:50.440 and Gaza.

00:56:51.660 Well,

00:56:51.840 one of these

00:56:52.380 high-profile ones

00:56:53.420 will obviously be

00:56:53.940 Claudine Gay,

00:56:54.760 for example.

00:56:55.140 Yes.

00:56:55.480 So what got her

00:56:56.780 in the end

00:56:57.240 was plagiarism,

00:56:58.100 but it was instigated

00:56:59.140 by that dreadful

00:57:00.020 congressional hearing

00:57:00.800 where she couldn't

00:57:01.540 condemn people

00:57:02.440 calling for genocide

00:57:03.520 on Harvard University

00:57:04.500 campus.

00:57:05.140 That's right.

00:57:05.600 Yeah,

00:57:05.800 so in...

00:57:06.880 Nothing to see here.

00:57:08.620 Returning to the subject

00:57:09.700 of coalition building,

00:57:11.220 the reason I think

00:57:12.160 that we're past

00:57:12.900 peak woke

00:57:13.520 is the woke coalition

00:57:14.680 has been fundamentally

00:57:15.760 split by the issue

00:57:17.740 following October 7th,

00:57:19.560 and I think...

00:57:20.120 It's a good point.

00:57:20.820 Yeah,

00:57:21.080 and I think that

00:57:21.780 Donald Trump

00:57:22.440 coming into office

00:57:23.280 as well

00:57:23.740 is definitely

00:57:24.680 pushing that split

00:57:26.560 along

00:57:26.900 because he's drawn

00:57:27.840 a lot of the big

00:57:28.560 tech bros

00:57:29.160 onto his side.

00:57:30.540 That's...

00:57:30.900 I would argue

00:57:31.420 you see,

00:57:31.880 you know,

00:57:32.160 friends in the academy

00:57:33.160 who are not crazy

00:57:35.240 and sound

00:57:36.520 will say...

00:57:38.480 Will to them,

00:57:38.900 yeah.

00:57:39.220 No,

00:57:39.420 look,

00:57:39.600 actually,

00:57:40.180 the STP's

00:57:40.600 overweight academics,

00:57:41.560 but a lot of them

00:57:42.440 are political scientists,

00:57:43.380 and they tell me,

00:57:44.040 they say...

00:57:45.080 I say,

00:57:45.420 why is this

00:57:46.720 just flourishing

00:57:47.400 in the way it is?

00:57:47.940 And why,

00:57:48.300 you know,

00:57:48.420 even after a moderate

00:57:49.900 thing like Brexit,

00:57:50.800 which was the

00:57:51.380 mainstream majority

00:57:52.280 of the public

00:57:52.640 wanted to leave

00:57:53.080 the European Union,

00:57:54.100 why couldn't you

00:57:54.880 as an academic?

00:57:55.560 Why did you...

00:57:56.160 Why were you chastised

00:57:57.440 for having that view?

00:57:58.180 Why were there so many

00:57:58.980 pro-Brexit academics

00:58:00.380 unable to say this?

00:58:01.980 And the answer was

00:58:02.860 that it's the consequences,

00:58:04.520 you know,

00:58:05.040 it's the consequences

00:58:06.080 to the academics.

00:58:07.040 And until there are consequences,

00:58:08.260 what you're seeing there

00:58:09.300 in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict

00:58:12.680 there is suddenly

00:58:13.640 a meeting with

00:58:15.200 a consequence.

00:58:17.340 You know,

00:58:17.480 it really is...

00:58:18.280 This is not...

00:58:18.960 We're not messing there.

00:58:19.880 We're not just putting

00:58:23.740 this stuff out

00:58:24.340 to look virtuous.

00:58:25.180 It actually really matters.

00:58:27.020 And so that's a collision

00:58:28.400 with reality.

00:58:29.240 It's not just been

00:58:30.420 the academics themselves.

00:58:31.600 It's also been the students

00:58:32.720 in many cases

00:58:33.520 in a lot of these universities.

00:58:35.440 And so these students

00:58:36.920 might be receiving

00:58:37.780 their first bit of discipline.

00:58:39.340 Yeah,

00:58:39.620 but the New York Times...

00:58:40.660 Regarding these,

00:58:41.480 no,

00:58:41.800 you can't just go on

00:58:42.740 these massive campus protests

00:58:44.060 every other day.

00:58:45.080 You have to actually

00:58:46.140 abide by the rules

00:58:47.720 that we set.

00:58:48.860 So obviously,

00:58:49.880 many of them

00:58:50.640 will be true believers,

00:58:51.840 but I do think

00:58:52.580 that a lot of that

00:58:53.620 evangelical spirit

00:58:55.440 that comes with

00:58:56.120 the true believer

00:58:56.780 may be tempered

00:58:58.240 by a bit of

00:58:58.800 old-fashioned discipline.

00:59:00.240 So I wonder

00:59:00.880 if the culture

00:59:02.240 around them shifts,

00:59:03.900 if not all,

00:59:05.160 but a fair few of them

00:59:06.360 might shift along with it

00:59:08.240 and be very changeable.

00:59:09.860 What I really worry about,

00:59:10.960 particularly from the

00:59:11.620 scenes in the United States,

00:59:12.900 is just mob rule

00:59:13.660 on campus.

00:59:14.900 That's what worries me.

00:59:15.780 I think it's the weight

00:59:16.440 of numbers of people

00:59:17.180 protesting,

00:59:18.220 intimidating the faculty,

00:59:19.860 and, you know,

00:59:21.220 I mean,

00:59:21.520 it was a few years ago,

00:59:22.600 but you have a green

00:59:23.320 college,

00:59:24.460 Brett Weinstein.

00:59:25.240 So you have to be,

00:59:26.160 actually,

00:59:26.540 you have to have someone

00:59:27.580 that is prepared

00:59:28.180 to stand up

00:59:29.000 and you've got to be

00:59:29.940 brave to do that.

00:59:30.760 Well, I mean,

00:59:31.300 they're all trying to repeat

00:59:32.580 what they see in their minds

00:59:35.820 as the glorious civil rights

00:59:37.600 victories of the 1960s.

00:59:39.460 And Shelby Steele,

00:59:41.300 when he wrote about

00:59:42.580 when he was a student radical

00:59:43.960 in the 1960s,

00:59:45.120 gives the story of when

00:59:46.160 he and a load of the other students

00:59:48.220 marched into the office

00:59:50.080 of the university dean

00:59:51.600 and made all of their demands.

00:59:53.760 They disrespected him.

00:59:54.920 He dropped cigarette ash

00:59:55.960 on the carpet of his office.

00:59:57.300 And the dean

00:59:58.260 just didn't do anything.

00:59:59.920 He just sat there

01:00:00.960 and let them do it

01:00:01.860 because he was intimidated.

01:00:03.260 So what they're hoping for

01:00:05.100 is a repeat of that.

01:00:06.840 They want to have

01:00:07.600 their glorious civil rights moment.

01:00:09.640 And at least on this subject,

01:00:11.660 it doesn't seem to be working out.

01:00:13.420 Well, it's not.

01:00:14.020 Yeah, I mean,

01:00:14.320 it's a category error.

01:00:15.120 It's the same thing

01:00:15.820 as looking at gay rights,

01:00:17.860 which is justifiable

01:00:19.540 and arguable.

01:00:20.620 And then transposing that

01:00:21.900 on something

01:00:22.260 which is a completely

01:00:22.980 different category of thing,

01:00:23.880 which is gender ideology

01:00:24.780 and thinking it's the same thing,

01:00:26.460 thinking it's the latest stage in that.

01:00:28.220 I'll just tell you,

01:00:28.880 I'll lighten it up.

01:00:29.780 There's a philosopher

01:00:30.520 called Sidney Morgan Besser,

01:00:32.200 who was a philosopher.

01:00:33.480 I can't remember which,

01:00:33.980 it might have been Cornell.

01:00:35.520 In the late 60s,

01:00:36.560 there were a lot of

01:00:37.160 anti-Vietnam rioting

01:00:40.100 and protests.

01:00:41.300 Police broke it up

01:00:42.120 and you've seen the scene.

01:00:42.840 They broke it up by smashing,

01:00:43.860 using the bat and smashing.

01:00:44.840 And he was it.

01:00:45.340 He was, you know,

01:00:46.800 probably a senior lecturer.

01:00:48.320 And he was interviewed afterwards,

01:00:50.560 you know,

01:00:50.780 bloodied.

01:00:51.160 He said,

01:00:51.420 do you think this is unfair

01:00:52.720 and unjust?

01:00:54.420 He said,

01:00:54.820 well,

01:00:54.960 it was certainly unjust,

01:00:56.240 but it was unfair

01:00:56.780 because they didn't just hit me,

01:00:57.940 they hit everyone.

01:00:59.560 So there you go.

01:01:00.420 That's a philosopher at one.

01:01:02.020 Right.

01:01:02.440 We've got some rumble rants

01:01:04.020 that have come in

01:01:04.520 before we move on

01:01:05.460 to the next one.

01:01:06.460 You know.

01:01:06.920 Yes.

01:01:08.200 I'm not reading out that name,

01:01:09.480 but thank you for the $2.

01:01:10.980 Passports handed out

01:01:11.820 to every disreputable gentleman

01:01:14.360 who demands one

01:01:15.280 are meaningless.

01:01:16.300 And then he calls

01:01:17.280 for the deportation

01:01:18.560 of people

01:01:19.580 who disrespect the country.

01:01:22.100 It's a hell of a,

01:01:22.900 hell of a policy

01:01:23.400 for illegal migrants,

01:01:24.180 certainly.

01:01:24.880 Dragon Lady Chris.

01:01:25.980 Connor,

01:01:26.540 your last week's Tomlinson Talks

01:01:27.600 is horrifying,

01:01:28.560 fascinating,

01:01:29.140 and necessary.

01:01:29.720 Thank you for your voice.

01:01:30.380 On a side note,

01:01:30.860 your theme music is great.

01:01:31.760 Excellent.

01:01:32.180 Well,

01:01:32.260 you're going to get

01:01:32.540 another horrifying episode today

01:01:33.780 because we've got to cover

01:01:34.940 important topics.

01:01:36.340 That's a random name

01:01:37.100 for $1.

01:01:37.580 When can we get Xi Jinping

01:01:38.720 on the podcast?

01:01:39.540 I suppose we'll just,

01:01:40.420 we'll ask Rachel Reeves.

01:01:42.940 Yeah,

01:01:43.220 she's just been,

01:01:43.780 she's been on a trip

01:01:44.880 out in China.

01:01:45.380 Perhaps she can get a new job

01:01:47.960 out there at some point.

01:01:49.040 And that's a random name.

01:01:49.820 You're exactly right,

01:01:50.340 Harry.

01:01:50.680 Wokeness in the video games

01:01:51.540 industry is why I left

01:01:52.220 in 2019 to go full indie.

01:01:53.520 Best decision ever,

01:01:54.340 indie is the future.

01:01:55.140 Yeah,

01:01:55.460 I used to be horrifically

01:01:56.980 addicted to games,

01:01:58.060 and nothing has helped me

01:01:59.100 more to beat that addiction

01:02:00.400 than the video game industry

01:02:01.520 sucking raw eggs.

01:02:03.380 I'm trying to think of the

01:02:03.920 last AAA video game

01:02:05.560 that I actually played

01:02:07.020 and enjoyed.

01:02:08.660 I can't,

01:02:09.600 I can't think of one.

01:02:11.140 Souls Battlefront 2

01:02:11.840 was fun after they made

01:02:13.060 everything free and not

01:02:14.060 broken.

01:02:14.440 Maybe the 2018 God of War,

01:02:17.380 but that had a terrible sequel.

01:02:19.420 Josie's Angels,

01:02:20.200 $5.

01:02:20.680 Are you familiar with

01:02:21.280 Stras Howell's

01:02:21.880 generational theories?

01:02:22.660 I believe Dan has done

01:02:23.460 a brokenomics on that before.

01:02:24.880 Their books on generations

01:02:26.020 and the fourth turning

01:02:26.680 predicted what we're going through.

01:02:27.700 Great insights into Gen Alpha.

01:02:29.480 Well,

01:02:29.700 we shall see.

01:02:31.000 And Bally Asker,

01:02:32.780 one of the strongest bastions

01:02:33.800 of woke is fiction.

01:02:34.760 Forget getting published

01:02:35.440 if you're a straight white male.

01:02:36.480 Yeah,

01:02:36.800 believe me,

01:02:37.460 I've been through that.

01:02:38.380 With the success of Ireland,

01:02:39.180 could Lotus Eaters perhaps

01:02:39.980 start an alternative imprint?

01:02:41.220 I don't think that's in the budget

01:02:42.640 or the scope of operations

01:02:43.540 at the moment,

01:02:44.000 but there are alternative imprints

01:02:45.100 because Lomas has got one

01:02:46.600 that's going very well

01:02:47.340 with Passage Press.

01:02:48.540 You've got Imperium

01:02:50.040 have published a few

01:02:51.560 fiction works as well

01:02:53.520 outside of just republishing

01:02:54.960 say old 19th century

01:02:56.660 philosophy and economics

01:02:57.960 works as well.

01:02:58.760 Dalbon Books

01:02:59.420 go over and buy their stuff.

01:03:00.640 They're currently about

01:03:01.380 to do a reissued of

01:03:03.360 very controversial book

01:03:04.420 Camp of the Saints.

01:03:05.740 Oh,

01:03:06.020 really?

01:03:06.520 Yes.

01:03:06.860 So that's not going to be

01:03:07.760 £200 on eBay anymore?

01:03:09.460 No,

01:03:09.720 they've got the rights to that.

01:03:10.700 I've still never read it.

01:03:13.060 No,

01:03:13.280 neither have I.

01:03:13.680 There are various imprints

01:03:14.680 that are popping up

01:03:15.460 doing either dissident literature

01:03:16.800 or publishing new stuff

01:03:17.900 or reprinting old stuff.

01:03:18.720 And you should support them

01:03:20.080 because I've heard

01:03:21.220 firsthand from them

01:03:22.280 it's very expensive

01:03:23.580 and very difficult.

01:03:24.700 So the more financial support

01:03:25.980 they get,

01:03:26.480 the more opportunities

01:03:27.340 they have

01:03:27.980 not just to publish

01:03:28.820 old books

01:03:29.660 but to publish new books

01:03:32.100 both non-fiction

01:03:33.000 and works of fiction.

01:03:34.240 Quite.

01:03:34.620 Well,

01:03:34.780 speaking of supporting

01:03:35.760 new startups,

01:03:37.060 so Reform UK

01:03:37.700 are now one point

01:03:39.000 behind the Labour Party

01:03:40.260 in the most recent

01:03:41.240 YouGov poll

01:03:42.060 and as you can imagine

01:03:43.700 they're making

01:03:44.300 all sorts of hay

01:03:45.720 out of this.

01:03:46.720 They're campaigning

01:03:47.420 on this fact

01:03:48.080 that they've now

01:03:49.260 possibly could be able

01:03:50.640 to say

01:03:50.960 hey,

01:03:51.400 the Conservatives

01:03:52.020 are splitting

01:03:52.500 the Reform vote

01:03:53.420 etc,

01:03:54.060 etc.

01:03:54.640 As things stand

01:03:55.600 if we had a general election

01:03:56.520 right now

01:03:57.160 we'd have a hung parliament

01:03:58.560 it would be

01:03:58.940 between three parties

01:03:59.980 and Reform the Conservatives

01:04:00.940 would,

01:04:02.120 despite much consternation

01:04:03.240 in each base

01:04:03.980 probably go into coalition.

01:04:05.420 but it's looking like

01:04:06.860 Reform could actually win

01:04:08.120 outright

01:04:08.740 unless the SDP make

01:04:10.440 a really strong challenge

01:04:11.800 to them

01:04:12.160 in 2029.

01:04:13.620 It's good you're here

01:04:14.440 Will

01:04:14.780 because I wanted to talk

01:04:16.080 about marginal

01:04:17.320 or outsider parties

01:04:19.020 than the big two

01:04:20.100 who have disserviced us

01:04:21.120 for a long time

01:04:21.620 but also

01:04:22.120 what it takes

01:04:24.060 to win

01:04:24.540 to get there

01:04:25.200 because

01:04:25.820 in the last few days

01:04:27.560 and this is something

01:04:28.460 that's been building

01:04:28.940 over some time

01:04:29.700 Zia Youssef

01:04:31.060 who is the chairman

01:04:31.900 of Reform

01:04:32.420 has put out this tweet

01:04:33.780 and there seems to be

01:04:34.540 some opposition

01:04:37.080 to some of the members

01:04:38.140 of the base

01:04:38.600 who are unhappy

01:04:39.260 about certain things

01:04:39.940 that Reform has done

01:04:40.560 so I'll read this out.

01:04:41.900 During Reform's

01:04:42.500 historic surge

01:04:43.140 we've been attacked

01:04:43.680 harder by those

01:04:44.400 who claim to be

01:04:45.120 friendly critics

01:04:46.440 or critical friends

01:04:47.720 which is an important phrase

01:04:48.900 of Reform

01:04:49.800 than the left wing media.

01:04:51.000 They are long departed

01:04:51.940 Reformers and UKIPers

01:04:52.860 consumed with envy

01:04:53.700 and bitterness

01:04:54.080 and dealing lies.

01:04:55.340 Sad really.

01:04:56.480 You could have just

01:04:56.940 tagged Connor.

01:04:58.540 I'll get to that

01:04:59.020 in a moment.

01:04:59.640 Who's he talking about

01:05:00.400 I wonder.

01:05:00.740 Okay so

01:05:01.220 so yes

01:05:02.720 I popularised the phrase

01:05:04.060 critical friends

01:05:04.680 and I did so

01:05:05.540 in this article

01:05:06.420 that Richard Tice

01:05:07.000 really didn't like

01:05:07.640 very much.

01:05:08.460 People within Reform

01:05:09.620 who actually work

01:05:10.880 on the team

01:05:11.560 were very eager

01:05:13.560 to assuage my concerns

01:05:15.040 about Reform

01:05:15.800 and say

01:05:16.320 here's what we're doing

01:05:17.560 here's the strategy

01:05:18.320 we'll listen to your concerns

01:05:19.260 and we're hoping

01:05:20.120 that you're still

01:05:20.580 supporting us

01:05:21.140 and they're very good lads

01:05:22.180 we both know them

01:05:23.280 behind the scenes

01:05:23.700 won't say who

01:05:24.280 but they're good

01:05:25.120 Reform has got some

01:05:25.740 competent team members

01:05:26.680 and I want to say

01:05:27.380 that I'm still inclined

01:05:28.220 to support them

01:05:28.680 love what Rupert Lowe's doing

01:05:29.960 you'll never hear a bad word

01:05:31.420 out of my mouth

01:05:32.340 on him

01:05:32.880 but I did put

01:05:34.000 at the bottom

01:05:34.380 of this article

01:05:34.880 I'm a critical friend

01:05:35.820 of Reform

01:05:36.200 please sort it out

01:05:37.060 the hour is too late

01:05:37.760 for inviting and cowardice

01:05:38.700 and then

01:05:39.600 that was taken up

01:05:40.700 by Harrison Pitt

01:05:41.640 my co-host in Deprogrammed

01:05:42.980 Dan Wootten

01:05:43.560 and then Ben Habib

01:05:44.800 so I think he's probably

01:05:46.140 referring to Ben Habib

01:05:47.260 because Ben took the phrase

01:05:48.560 from me

01:05:48.960 but that does mean now

01:05:50.340 yeah but they are aware

01:05:51.540 of you as well

01:05:52.600 specifically

01:05:53.180 if Tice is going out

01:05:54.900 of his way

01:05:55.440 to respond to you

01:05:56.660 and trash your articles

01:05:58.060 then I'm sure

01:05:58.720 Yusuf also knows you

01:05:59.860 I'm actually surprised

01:06:00.600 he responded in that way

01:06:01.660 I mean like

01:06:02.260 social media 101

01:06:03.280 no no no

01:06:04.540 it's not so much that

01:06:05.660 it's not even to do

01:06:06.680 whether it's right or wrong

01:06:07.540 on the subject

01:06:09.000 on the facts

01:06:10.120 it's that

01:06:10.940 you know

01:06:11.400 I always say to people

01:06:12.400 in the STP

01:06:13.180 if you really want

01:06:14.540 to amplify something

01:06:15.420 then retweet it

01:06:16.240 and respond

01:06:16.560 otherwise we just

01:06:17.260 ice it out

01:06:18.020 that's what we do

01:06:18.700 I mean

01:06:19.260 icing it out

01:06:20.420 is a better strategy

01:06:21.780 if you don't want

01:06:22.560 so what he's done

01:06:23.680 is actually just

01:06:24.620 draw attention

01:06:25.820 to the fact

01:06:26.300 there are a lot

01:06:26.700 of young people

01:06:27.340 they're not impressed

01:06:27.960 with some of the

01:06:29.340 direction

01:06:30.280 some of the pronouncements

01:06:31.220 and so on

01:06:31.640 so you know

01:06:32.480 it's not very wise

01:06:33.340 to do that

01:06:33.680 I'm surprised he did that

01:06:34.720 but anyway

01:06:35.100 I you know

01:06:36.020 I think

01:06:36.880 I think

01:06:37.420 and it wasn't intending

01:06:38.700 to get in under anyone's skin

01:06:40.060 but it's because

01:06:40.640 I mentioned his comment

01:06:41.680 about that lot

01:06:42.680 as in the people

01:06:43.200 that attend

01:06:43.620 Tommy Robinson's rally

01:06:44.580 and before that happened

01:06:46.500 the overlap

01:06:47.260 between the people

01:06:47.920 that went on those

01:06:48.360 Unite the Kingdom rallies

01:06:49.200 and reform voters

01:06:50.060 that Venn diagram

01:06:50.660 was a circle

01:06:51.260 now it's been

01:06:52.160 pried apart

01:06:52.760 and so rather than

01:06:54.000 handling the situation

01:06:54.840 as Douglas Murray would

01:06:55.800 or as I advise them to do

01:06:57.160 which is say

01:06:57.840 look the issues

01:06:58.940 that enabled

01:06:59.500 Tommy Robinson to exist

01:07:00.760 speak to a betrayal

01:07:02.380 of the British public

01:07:03.340 by the political

01:07:04.840 and media establishment

01:07:05.640 that have worked

01:07:06.180 in lopstep

01:07:06.760 to accelerate immigration

01:07:07.880 reform have inherited

01:07:08.920 this mess

01:07:09.340 and now we're going

01:07:09.780 to clean it up

01:07:10.360 so Tommy Robinson

01:07:11.680 will no longer be possible

01:07:12.840 and I think frankly

01:07:13.580 Tommy Robinson

01:07:14.020 would probably like that

01:07:14.920 because he's a

01:07:15.540 he'd rather be at home

01:07:16.460 with his kids

01:07:16.840 and sitting in a cell

01:07:17.540 right about now

01:07:18.160 that's the way

01:07:18.960 to go about it

01:07:19.480 without attacking

01:07:19.980 any of the voters

01:07:20.560 and that's what I think

01:07:21.400 Richard objected to

01:07:22.500 and I think

01:07:23.280 what's happening here

01:07:24.380 is there's a sensitivity

01:07:25.220 around reform

01:07:26.120 because they feel

01:07:26.700 like they're getting

01:07:27.520 a bit of stick

01:07:29.300 from people in their base

01:07:30.940 and attack from the right

01:07:32.640 all the while

01:07:33.540 they feel a pressure

01:07:34.480 to attack leftward

01:07:35.660 because the media

01:07:36.600 are going to constantly

01:07:37.620 call them racists

01:07:38.340 and they think

01:07:38.680 that they have to

01:07:39.320 play to the mainstream

01:07:40.380 and try and get people

01:07:41.440 who would otherwise

01:07:42.020 vote for other parties

01:07:42.960 to not see them as racist

01:07:44.320 so they're thinking

01:07:45.300 why is my base

01:07:46.500 giving me it in the ear

01:07:47.640 because we're trying

01:07:48.220 to win anyway

01:07:48.900 and so they've written off

01:07:50.080 these critical friends

01:07:51.080 as outside agitators

01:07:52.920 I mean Yusuf

01:07:53.800 literally alleges

01:07:54.640 in this

01:07:55.120 I have it on good

01:07:56.060 authority

01:07:56.380 these people

01:07:56.740 are paid agitators

01:07:57.520 literally covertly

01:07:58.500 working for the

01:07:59.080 failed Tory party

01:07:59.820 to try and derail reform

01:08:01.120 he got you Connor

01:08:02.020 yeah me

01:08:03.300 Dan Wooten

01:08:03.880 and Harrison Pitt

01:08:04.540 are not on the

01:08:05.020 Tory payroll

01:08:05.600 no

01:08:06.000 like I vote for

01:08:06.800 reform twice

01:08:07.400 including in 2021

01:08:08.240 before Nigel was even

01:08:09.100 leading for Richard

01:08:10.480 Tice himself

01:08:11.140 in my local

01:08:12.080 constituency

01:08:12.540 so I can say

01:08:13.960 I'm a sincere

01:08:15.040 likely supporter

01:08:16.160 just want you to

01:08:16.960 do some good things

01:08:17.840 but it is important

01:08:19.520 they have critical

01:08:20.020 friends because in

01:08:20.700 the last 24 hours

01:08:21.500 there's been a few

01:08:21.880 blunders

01:08:22.280 and I want to

01:08:23.400 highlight this

01:08:24.140 because I'm just

01:08:24.980 saying

01:08:25.320 the criticisms are

01:08:26.920 coming from people

01:08:27.540 who want to vote

01:08:28.400 for you

01:08:29.020 not people who

01:08:29.840 want you to fail

01:08:30.720 and prop up the

01:08:31.480 Tories

01:08:31.800 the first example

01:08:33.020 of this was

01:08:33.680 retweeted by a

01:08:34.720 former Tory

01:08:35.360 Andrew R.T. Davis

01:08:36.560 and this is

01:08:37.260 Reform's Welsh

01:08:38.100 spokesperson

01:08:38.720 his name's Oliver

01:08:39.300 Lewis

01:08:39.600 and he said that

01:08:40.940 well immigration

01:08:42.120 is just positive

01:08:42.700 for Wales

01:08:43.220 so I'm going to

01:08:43.620 play this clip

01:08:44.160 Wales has had

01:08:44.920 really very

01:08:45.560 limited levels

01:08:46.800 of immigration

01:08:47.360 and the immigration

01:08:49.040 we have had

01:08:49.540 arguably has been

01:08:50.620 very positive

01:08:51.100 for economy

01:08:51.720 so immigration

01:08:52.360 is much less

01:08:53.140 of a factor

01:08:53.620 in politics

01:08:54.640 in Wales

01:08:54.940 than it is

01:08:55.400 say in England

01:08:56.480 that's a very

01:08:57.640 different tone

01:08:59.020 that I hear

01:08:59.460 so Zee Yusuf

01:09:01.580 himself has

01:09:02.160 actually replied

01:09:02.660 to this

01:09:02.940 I don't know

01:09:03.220 if it's there

01:09:03.620 he says

01:09:04.040 this is not

01:09:04.500 the reformed

01:09:05.000 position

01:09:05.260 that's fine

01:09:06.160 that's good

01:09:07.140 I'm glad to hear

01:09:08.380 that's not

01:09:08.580 the reformed

01:09:08.920 position

01:09:09.200 and did that

01:09:10.500 guy forget

01:09:11.000 about those

01:09:11.640 Welsh adverts

01:09:12.500 for schools

01:09:13.700 where they

01:09:14.040 were just

01:09:14.300 flashing young

01:09:15.080 white girls

01:09:15.720 up for

01:09:16.260 the mothers

01:09:17.440 refugee council

01:09:18.360 yeah

01:09:18.720 so that's

01:09:20.140 fine

01:09:20.400 not the reformed

01:09:20.840 position

01:09:21.020 good

01:09:21.460 glad to hear

01:09:22.080 condemnation of

01:09:23.300 that

01:09:23.440 but again

01:09:23.920 you need

01:09:24.360 critical friends

01:09:24.920 to point this

01:09:25.520 stuff out

01:09:25.960 to say

01:09:26.460 well hang on

01:09:26.900 a minute

01:09:27.120 there's a bit

01:09:27.480 of mixed

01:09:27.760 messaging here

01:09:28.260 and this

01:09:28.500 isn't

01:09:29.200 what we

01:09:29.720 want

01:09:30.000 and then

01:09:31.320 there's

01:09:31.480 another

01:09:31.640 person

01:09:31.980 that's

01:09:32.140 been

01:09:32.260 ostracised

01:09:32.780 and that's

01:09:33.360 Howard Cox

01:09:34.120 and Howard Cox

01:09:35.380 was their

01:09:35.780 London mayoral

01:09:36.380 candidate

01:09:36.720 and their

01:09:37.000 candidate in

01:09:37.420 Dover and Deal

01:09:38.040 and it was

01:09:39.140 down to the

01:09:39.660 wire

01:09:39.880 he could have

01:09:40.600 been a sixth

01:09:41.220 MP

01:09:41.600 he certainly

01:09:42.440 would have

01:09:42.740 been now

01:09:43.140 if the

01:09:43.560 election was

01:09:44.660 called later

01:09:45.300 on by Rishi

01:09:45.960 Sunak

01:09:46.380 and he's been

01:09:47.180 kicked out of

01:09:47.700 the party

01:09:47.900 for two things

01:09:48.500 one because

01:09:49.020 he said on

01:09:49.420 Dan Wotton's

01:09:49.880 show the

01:09:50.100 country's run

01:09:50.500 by immigrants

01:09:51.000 and a bit

01:09:51.300 of a clumsy

01:09:51.660 phrase

01:09:51.940 and the other

01:09:52.880 one is because

01:09:53.640 he has been

01:09:54.520 supportive of

01:09:55.480 Tommy Robinson

01:09:56.060 not him as a

01:09:56.980 person he

01:09:57.540 clarifies but the

01:09:58.380 fact that he was

01:09:58.880 speaking out on

01:09:59.560 the rape gangs

01:10:00.180 for many years

01:10:01.040 when other people

01:10:01.780 which Nigel did

01:10:03.500 as well so

01:10:04.100 credit to him

01:10:04.760 weren't speaking

01:10:05.780 out about it

01:10:06.400 so they're

01:10:07.980 removing these

01:10:08.580 people

01:10:08.900 okay

01:10:10.000 distancing

01:10:10.840 themselves from

01:10:11.520 this

01:10:11.840 who they might

01:10:13.580 be letting in

01:10:14.320 is Charlie

01:10:15.900 Mullins

01:10:16.320 I don't know

01:10:17.300 if either of

01:10:18.480 you probably

01:10:18.960 do

01:10:19.280 yeah I know

01:10:20.000 I don't know

01:10:20.700 if you know

01:10:20.980 who this chap

01:10:21.560 is Harry

01:10:22.100 I'm not

01:10:22.740 familiar with

01:10:23.260 he's the

01:10:23.700 founder of

01:10:24.060 Pimlico

01:10:24.480 Plumbers

01:10:24.980 Pimlico

01:10:26.160 Plumbers

01:10:26.760 not Pimlico

01:10:27.980 Journal

01:10:28.360 no

01:10:28.980 the plumbing

01:10:30.200 firm

01:10:30.540 right so

01:10:31.320 the plumbing

01:10:31.620 firm

01:10:31.820 now before

01:10:32.780 I say the

01:10:33.440 following

01:10:33.760 when I put

01:10:35.360 this together

01:10:35.880 before after

01:10:36.900 I put this

01:10:37.180 together I

01:10:37.860 received confirmation

01:10:38.660 this is not

01:10:39.380 happening and

01:10:40.860 that they're very

01:10:41.420 annoyed that he

01:10:42.120 said this but

01:10:43.460 he did donate a

01:10:45.120 large amount of

01:10:45.600 money to the

01:10:45.960 party

01:10:46.240 so he just

01:10:47.100 came out with

01:10:48.820 some bollocks

01:10:49.680 on an interview

01:10:50.500 well how

01:10:51.880 okay all right

01:10:53.220 this is the problem

01:10:53.680 they've since

01:10:54.780 distanced themselves

01:10:55.440 from him but he

01:10:56.440 implied that a

01:10:57.040 conversation had

01:10:57.660 happened where

01:10:58.000 Nigel Farage had

01:10:58.980 asked him to run

01:10:59.640 as a candidate

01:11:00.080 personally

01:11:00.600 now there's a

01:11:01.680 few problems

01:11:02.120 with this

01:11:02.520 namely first of

01:11:04.040 all that he

01:11:04.580 lives in Spain

01:11:05.200 so he's gonna

01:11:05.800 have to move

01:11:06.120 back because he

01:11:06.840 left the UK

01:11:07.440 well they're

01:11:08.120 trying to kick

01:11:08.580 all the UK

01:11:09.560 expats out

01:11:10.560 now

01:11:10.940 maybe he'll

01:11:11.580 come back

01:11:11.900 so he might

01:11:12.480 have to come

01:11:13.160 back maybe

01:11:13.640 that's why

01:11:14.040 he's starting

01:11:14.440 to make moves

01:11:15.120 reasonably well

01:11:16.060 off so I

01:11:16.440 don't think he

01:11:16.760 has to

01:11:17.180 though he

01:11:17.880 could have

01:11:18.120 probably better

01:11:18.700 afford a plastic

01:11:19.500 surgeon because

01:11:19.860 he looks like the

01:11:20.320 interned corpse of

01:11:21.660 Rod Stewart

01:11:22.020 I'm glad that

01:11:22.720 that wasn't just

01:11:23.480 me thinking

01:11:23.900 he's taken the

01:11:24.720 bog pill

01:11:25.340 he looks like an

01:11:25.980 oblivion NPC

01:11:26.560 yeah it's not

01:11:27.140 very complimentary

01:11:27.940 but he did say

01:11:28.960 I'm sorry I'm

01:11:29.840 sorry I'm sure

01:11:30.620 you're a lovely

01:11:31.140 guy Charlie

01:11:31.720 no he's not

01:11:32.300 oh okay never

01:11:32.900 mind

01:11:33.120 he did say that

01:11:34.160 Farage had asked

01:11:34.780 him to stand

01:11:35.120 personally now

01:11:35.660 there's a few

01:11:36.160 problems with this

01:11:36.720 first of all

01:11:37.260 Reform UK and

01:11:38.240 we can't say much

01:11:39.000 because we're on

01:11:39.480 YouTube but Reform UK

01:11:40.240 have committed to

01:11:41.320 an inquiry into the

01:11:42.360 COVID vaccine

01:11:43.080 Charlie Mullins

01:11:44.800 during the

01:11:46.120 pandemic had a

01:11:48.160 no jab no job

01:11:49.440 policy

01:11:49.920 is that him

01:11:51.000 that's him

01:11:51.900 what

01:11:52.200 yeah I know

01:11:53.220 it's quite a few

01:11:54.040 years ago now

01:11:54.540 he's switched from

01:11:56.640 one singer to

01:11:57.400 another

01:11:57.700 before he decided

01:11:59.180 to take a heavy

01:11:59.620 dose of formaldehyde

01:12:00.480 by the looks of

01:12:00.980 it

01:12:01.100 he had said

01:12:02.000 and this is

01:12:02.300 direct quote

01:12:03.020 to City AM

01:12:03.600 no vaccine

01:12:04.760 no job

01:12:05.260 when we go off

01:12:05.840 to Africa and

01:12:06.380 Caribbean countries

01:12:07.060 we have to have

01:12:07.720 a jab for malaria

01:12:08.560 we don't think about

01:12:09.280 it we just do it

01:12:09.840 so why would we

01:12:10.600 accept something

01:12:11.160 within our country

01:12:11.760 that's going to

01:12:12.100 kill us when we

01:12:12.660 have a vaccine

01:12:13.100 to stop it

01:12:13.620 now

01:12:13.880 questions about

01:12:15.860 efficacy aside

01:12:16.740 because we all

01:12:17.420 know that

01:12:17.860 narrative wasn't

01:12:19.180 quite so

01:12:19.720 accurate on that

01:12:20.500 the fact that

01:12:21.600 he was threatening

01:12:22.380 to throw people

01:12:23.020 out of their jobs

01:12:23.500 he had people

01:12:23.980 leave and he

01:12:24.480 wouldn't allow

01:12:24.840 new employees

01:12:25.360 to join unless

01:12:25.900 they had the

01:12:26.320 Covid vaccine

01:12:27.040 means that he

01:12:28.240 was coercing

01:12:28.840 people into

01:12:29.300 a medical

01:12:29.700 treatment

01:12:30.080 which means

01:12:31.360 that he should

01:12:32.180 automatically be

01:12:32.820 disqualified as

01:12:33.520 running as a

01:12:34.440 candidate for reform

01:12:35.100 when they want to

01:12:35.600 have an inquiry

01:12:36.220 into this

01:12:36.760 I take so all

01:12:38.120 this is very

01:12:38.840 interesting and

01:12:39.260 it's not unusual

01:12:40.060 that a party

01:12:42.100 would be policed

01:12:42.740 by people

01:12:43.380 in this way

01:12:44.960 and you say

01:12:45.360 well that's

01:12:45.740 you've got that

01:12:46.100 wrong

01:12:46.360 but actually

01:12:47.440 a more important

01:12:48.780 thing for the

01:12:49.400 country and

01:12:49.940 for reform

01:12:50.580 I'm humbly

01:12:51.940 offering them

01:12:52.640 some advice

01:12:53.200 is to try and

01:12:54.340 work out what

01:12:55.040 their foundational

01:12:55.740 political philosophy

01:12:56.620 is because I

01:12:57.100 don't know it

01:12:57.640 so it's a mixture

01:12:58.780 of sort of

01:13:00.180 old school

01:13:00.740 Thatcherism

01:13:01.400 small state

01:13:02.100 stuff

01:13:02.560 free tradism

01:13:03.580 which is

01:13:04.000 disastrous

01:13:04.740 combined with

01:13:06.420 hostility to

01:13:07.160 mass immigration

01:13:07.900 I agree with

01:13:08.680 that

01:13:08.900 although their

01:13:10.020 policy on the

01:13:11.220 migrant crisis

01:13:12.060 in the channel

01:13:12.900 just won't work

01:13:13.720 and I've explained

01:13:14.340 that several times

01:13:15.340 our policy is

01:13:16.960 right on that

01:13:17.540 you detain

01:13:18.720 offshore in

01:13:19.700 ascension

01:13:20.060 you control it

01:13:20.920 every single

01:13:22.300 person that

01:13:22.800 arrives unsolicited

01:13:23.720 is immediately

01:13:24.180 taken there

01:13:24.740 for a couple

01:13:25.100 of years

01:13:25.460 and put elsewhere

01:13:26.300 the flow stops

01:13:27.780 it's just basic

01:13:28.400 incentives

01:13:28.820 if you understand

01:13:29.340 that you can

01:13:29.780 stop it

01:13:30.140 they don't want

01:13:30.500 to stop it

01:13:30.980 so they need to

01:13:32.080 improve on things

01:13:32.660 like that

01:13:32.980 but I still

01:13:33.740 don't

01:13:34.420 I'm the only

01:13:36.020 person in the

01:13:36.580 world

01:13:36.860 possibly ever

01:13:38.440 who's negotiated

01:13:39.700 an electoral pact

01:13:40.340 with reform

01:13:40.860 I do know a

01:13:41.400 little bit

01:13:41.680 about them

01:13:42.180 I'm not hostile

01:13:44.020 to them

01:13:44.340 I disagree with

01:13:44.900 them on the

01:13:45.160 economics

01:13:45.580 fundamentally

01:13:46.400 I disagree

01:13:46.960 but they were

01:13:47.660 very grown up

01:13:48.220 about that

01:13:48.660 they were fine

01:13:49.200 about that

01:13:49.880 we did a

01:13:50.440 small limited

01:13:51.520 electoral pact

01:13:52.160 in the general

01:13:52.960 election

01:13:53.260 but I still

01:13:54.320 don't know

01:13:54.800 as an outsider

01:13:55.500 to it

01:13:55.960 I don't know

01:13:56.500 what their

01:13:56.860 foundational

01:13:57.340 political

01:13:57.740 philosophy is

01:13:58.320 I don't know

01:13:58.660 if it's

01:13:58.860 J.D. Vance

01:13:59.540 or a bit

01:14:00.320 like us

01:14:01.060 in some ways

01:14:01.700 Faith, Flag and

01:14:02.300 Family

01:14:02.620 as I said

01:14:03.200 you know

01:14:03.500 re-industrialize

01:14:04.920 understand that

01:14:06.580 this is our

01:14:07.440 home

01:14:07.720 not a shop

01:14:08.380 I don't know

01:14:09.200 if it's that

01:14:09.520 or it's

01:14:09.740 something else

01:14:10.240 and I think

01:14:10.640 until they

01:14:11.240 these

01:14:11.920 particular things

01:14:13.300 individuals like

01:14:14.260 you know

01:14:14.840 these bumps

01:14:17.000 in the road

01:14:17.420 but they have

01:14:18.340 an opportunity

01:14:18.960 actually to get

01:14:20.180 their political

01:14:20.920 philosophy right

01:14:21.640 and they have

01:14:22.100 an opportunity

01:14:22.480 to get something

01:14:23.040 that is coherent

01:14:24.060 and my

01:14:25.240 deepest criticism

01:14:26.620 of the

01:14:27.200 double liberalism

01:14:28.280 that people

01:14:28.800 on the right

01:14:29.260 have promoted

01:14:30.300 people like

01:14:30.740 Boris Johnson

01:14:31.360 which is

01:14:32.500 you know

01:14:32.780 social liberalism

01:14:33.680 and economic

01:14:34.320 liberalism

01:14:35.040 at the same time

01:14:35.860 that is not

01:14:36.420 conservative

01:14:36.920 you can call

01:14:38.040 yourself a

01:14:38.500 conservative

01:14:38.840 you're lying

01:14:39.420 it's not going

01:14:40.200 to conserve

01:14:40.480 anything for

01:14:41.040 anyone

01:14:41.520 so they need

01:14:43.160 to do a little

01:14:43.740 bit of

01:14:44.080 philosophical work

01:14:44.980 and then see

01:14:45.440 where they go

01:14:46.220 from there

01:14:46.660 I doubt

01:14:47.720 given the

01:14:48.740 individuals involved

01:14:50.420 that they can do

01:14:50.920 a proper

01:14:51.600 cultural turn

01:14:52.500 and an economic

01:14:53.260 turn to our

01:14:54.140 position

01:14:54.420 I don't think

01:14:54.900 any

01:14:55.080 by the next

01:14:55.760 election

01:14:56.160 I intend

01:14:56.900 to have

01:14:57.300 double or treble

01:14:58.700 the amount of

01:14:59.560 candidates we had

01:15:00.160 last time

01:15:00.580 we're growing

01:15:01.020 we're getting

01:15:01.320 some funding

01:15:01.760 in

01:15:01.980 got an HQ

01:15:02.760 in Manchester

01:15:04.280 established

01:15:04.760 so our offer

01:15:05.620 is just going

01:15:06.000 to be there

01:15:06.440 and at the present

01:15:07.400 apart from George

01:15:08.680 Galloway

01:15:09.060 he was an

01:15:09.460 odd combination

01:15:11.120 of Arab

01:15:11.520 nationalism

01:15:11.900 and something

01:15:14.040 traditional leftism

01:15:15.380 which is quite

01:15:15.800 strange

01:15:16.240 I don't think

01:15:16.640 that's a stable

01:15:17.080 coalition

01:15:17.380 but apart from

01:15:18.120 that

01:15:18.420 we're the only

01:15:19.740 party offering

01:15:20.300 this top left

01:15:21.080 type of

01:15:21.820 politics

01:15:22.520 so I think

01:15:23.660 in some ways

01:15:24.240 reform might

01:15:25.320 come onto our

01:15:26.180 territory a wee bit

01:15:27.000 in Thames Water

01:15:28.160 and things like that

01:15:28.760 and they've shown

01:15:29.600 evidence

01:15:29.960 but I don't see

01:15:31.000 and it's a friendly

01:15:32.020 criticism

01:15:32.500 I'm not a friend

01:15:33.640 of reform in that

01:15:34.400 way

01:15:34.640 I want people to

01:15:35.240 vote for the

01:15:35.500 SDP

01:15:35.780 but a criticism

01:15:37.000 is that they

01:15:37.800 need to do

01:15:38.280 the work

01:15:38.840 philosophically

01:15:39.540 and until

01:15:39.900 they've done

01:15:40.260 that

01:15:40.600 it's a little

01:15:41.900 bit unstable

01:15:42.540 but if they

01:15:43.120 did it

01:15:43.620 and if they

01:15:44.140 got that

01:15:44.540 clear

01:15:44.940 I think

01:15:46.260 they could

01:15:46.600 do extremely

01:15:47.300 well

01:15:47.620 because the

01:15:48.000 country's

01:15:48.360 crying out

01:15:49.000 and you may

01:15:49.380 be in a

01:15:49.760 sort of

01:15:49.980 break the

01:15:50.340 mold

01:15:50.600 position

01:15:51.600 in the

01:15:51.800 next few

01:15:52.100 years

01:15:52.420 because by

01:15:52.720 the next

01:15:52.980 election

01:15:53.400 certainly on

01:15:54.440 immigration

01:15:54.900 my advice

01:15:56.120 to them

01:15:56.380 I'll give

01:15:56.620 this advice

01:15:57.140 free

01:15:57.460 do not

01:15:58.680 weaken

01:15:59.240 by the time

01:16:00.540 you get to

01:16:01.120 the next

01:16:01.380 election

01:16:01.700 this public

01:16:02.380 will be

01:16:02.720 desperate

01:16:03.160 for someone

01:16:03.940 to protect

01:16:04.460 them

01:16:04.720 on a border

01:16:05.700 and on

01:16:06.160 mass migration

01:16:06.760 and if you

01:16:07.500 water that

01:16:08.000 down

01:16:08.340 you're doing

01:16:08.860 something

01:16:09.020 which is

01:16:09.240 politically

01:16:09.640 very foolish

01:16:10.360 I think

01:16:12.300 you're right

01:16:13.300 that there's

01:16:13.620 confusion

01:16:14.140 looking from

01:16:14.660 the outside

01:16:15.200 to what

01:16:16.640 reform

01:16:17.020 actually stands

01:16:17.880 for

01:16:18.120 I think

01:16:18.760 the best

01:16:19.580 that I can

01:16:20.280 get as an

01:16:20.980 overall message

01:16:21.860 is vaguely

01:16:22.940 gesturing towards

01:16:24.060 Labour and

01:16:24.720 Conservatives

01:16:25.400 and saying

01:16:25.860 we're not

01:16:26.780 them

01:16:27.140 that seems

01:16:28.040 to be the

01:16:28.500 main message

01:16:29.220 outside of

01:16:29.900 as well

01:16:30.180 stop the

01:16:30.620 boats

01:16:30.860 and things

01:16:31.180 like that

01:16:31.480 and for

01:16:32.280 last year's

01:16:32.960 election

01:16:33.340 when we'd

01:16:33.900 just come

01:16:34.200 off the

01:16:34.440 back

01:16:34.720 14 years

01:16:35.320 of Tory

01:16:35.840 Tory government

01:16:37.580 that was

01:16:38.420 enough to

01:16:38.900 push them

01:16:39.300 to the

01:16:39.580 success

01:16:39.900 that they

01:16:40.220 did get

01:16:40.740 but moving

01:16:41.480 forward

01:16:41.820 you are

01:16:42.200 right

01:16:42.340 I think

01:16:42.640 they're

01:16:42.800 going to

01:16:42.940 be a bit

01:16:43.380 need to

01:16:43.940 be more

01:16:44.500 solid

01:16:44.880 in what

01:16:45.200 they're

01:16:45.380 presenting

01:16:45.740 well

01:16:46.080 evident

01:16:46.680 of that

01:16:47.020 split

01:16:47.320 is their

01:16:47.900 migration

01:16:48.180 policy

01:16:48.540 we actually

01:16:48.820 don't know

01:16:49.040 what it is

01:16:49.460 because in

01:16:49.900 the contract

01:16:50.160 with the

01:16:50.320 people

01:16:50.560 it's net

01:16:50.960 zero

01:16:51.160 immigration

01:16:51.600 and Rupert Lowe

01:16:52.420 who's their

01:16:52.940 breakout

01:16:53.820 million in

01:16:54.620 million out

01:16:55.180 exactly

01:16:56.100 Rupert Lowe

01:16:57.660 their breakout

01:16:58.160 candidate has

01:16:58.840 said I don't

01:16:59.480 agree with

01:16:59.860 that we have a

01:17:00.300 party where we

01:17:00.760 can disagree

01:17:04.720 Farrar said

01:17:05.240 was impossible

01:17:05.840 but that's

01:17:06.180 basics

01:17:06.640 he also said

01:17:07.920 two year

01:17:08.460 immigration

01:17:08.940 moratorium

01:17:09.480 and we should

01:17:10.980 be looking at

01:17:11.400 what the

01:17:11.540 Swedes do

01:17:12.040 which is

01:17:12.560 offering to

01:17:13.280 repatriate

01:17:13.860 people who

01:17:14.280 do not

01:17:14.640 want to

01:17:14.960 be

01:17:15.000 but on

01:17:15.220 the illegal

01:17:15.540 immigration

01:17:15.900 there's quite

01:17:16.300 a thing

01:17:16.640 for a

01:17:17.380 politician

01:17:17.720 to just

01:17:18.580 give up

01:17:18.980 on that

01:17:19.500 because if

01:17:19.940 you're saying

01:17:20.920 I saw that

01:17:21.520 interview

01:17:21.840 and it was

01:17:22.100 interesting

01:17:22.400 Stephen did

01:17:23.240 the interview

01:17:23.560 and I thought

01:17:25.060 it was very

01:17:25.340 interesting

01:17:25.680 because if

01:17:26.580 you have

01:17:27.020 that position

01:17:27.700 it sort of

01:17:28.640 belies a

01:17:29.120 weakness

01:17:29.400 philosophically

01:17:30.040 if you decide

01:17:30.880 that you're

01:17:31.120 not bothering

01:17:31.560 to implement

01:17:32.320 that law

01:17:32.800 someone could

01:17:33.260 live here

01:17:33.780 illegally

01:17:34.540 I would not

01:17:35.100 bother with

01:17:35.480 that

01:17:35.660 you have to

01:17:36.520 on a sort

01:17:36.920 of canteen

01:17:37.340 basis

01:17:37.620 decide what

01:17:38.120 other laws

01:17:38.680 you think

01:17:39.000 we're just

01:17:39.300 not going to

01:17:39.600 bother

01:17:39.860 implementing

01:17:40.600 you can't

01:17:41.080 pick and

01:17:41.340 choose

01:17:41.580 if someone

01:17:42.280 is here

01:17:42.880 illegally

01:17:43.280 they should

01:17:44.180 be deported

01:17:44.920 well then it's

01:17:45.260 two tier

01:17:45.680 because then

01:17:46.100 when he was

01:17:46.560 on Winston

01:17:46.880 Marshall

01:17:47.240 he also said

01:17:48.000 no you can't

01:17:48.420 give them

01:17:48.640 amnesty

01:17:48.980 and so Winston

01:17:49.740 was like

01:17:50.000 well you're

01:17:50.220 not going to

01:17:50.420 deport them

01:17:50.660 you're not

01:17:50.820 going to

01:17:50.960 give them

01:17:51.160 amnesty

01:17:51.460 so what

01:17:51.800 do they

01:17:51.980 they just

01:17:52.320 exist as

01:17:52.860 a paperless

01:17:54.220 people

01:17:54.440 yeah it's

01:17:54.860 not

01:17:55.120 I would

01:17:56.280 describe it

01:17:56.960 as the

01:17:57.300 world's

01:17:57.620 largest

01:17:57.860 game of

01:17:58.240 hide and

01:17:58.660 seek

01:17:58.960 and the

01:17:59.980 illegals

01:18:00.420 would be

01:18:00.680 winning

01:18:00.940 even though

01:18:01.700 we know

01:18:02.040 where they

01:18:02.400 are

01:18:02.540 no but

01:18:02.900 just as I

01:18:03.440 would say

01:18:03.740 it again

01:18:04.120 I've said

01:18:04.460 it before

01:18:04.840 but you know

01:18:05.520 politically

01:18:05.940 do not

01:18:06.740 do not

01:18:07.160 weaken on

01:18:07.680 these important

01:18:08.260 points

01:18:08.760 because by

01:18:09.620 the next

01:18:09.960 election

01:18:10.340 I can't

01:18:10.900 see

01:18:11.060 some has

01:18:11.780 no chance

01:18:12.500 whatsoever

01:18:13.300 of tackling

01:18:14.200 the channel

01:18:14.600 migrant crisis

01:18:15.220 I don't

01:18:15.520 think he

01:18:15.740 actually wants

01:18:16.300 to

01:18:16.560 I don't

01:18:17.100 think they

01:18:17.320 want to

01:18:17.820 they

01:18:18.100 and as a

01:18:18.860 human rights

01:18:19.320 law

01:18:19.460 all his

01:18:19.740 background

01:18:20.100 the Labour

01:18:20.480 party

01:18:20.760 the PLP

01:18:21.380 they are

01:18:22.340 nowhere near

01:18:26.280 like the

01:18:26.840 Australians

01:18:27.160 have a

01:18:27.480 we

01:18:27.680 proposed

01:18:28.280 they don't

01:18:29.320 want to

01:18:29.480 do it

01:18:29.640 so we'll

01:18:29.920 get worse

01:18:30.500 so the

01:18:30.820 poor old

01:18:31.260 public

01:18:31.560 the British

01:18:31.900 people

01:18:32.200 by the

01:18:32.580 next

01:18:32.780 election

01:18:33.160 they'll

01:18:33.400 be

01:18:33.600 gagging

01:18:34.180 for someone

01:18:34.660 that is

01:18:34.980 as strong

01:18:35.720 as possible

01:18:36.240 on this

01:18:36.720 there's not a

01:18:37.500 time for

01:18:37.920 weakness

01:18:38.240 it's a time

01:18:38.840 to say

01:18:39.520 be clear

01:18:40.200 and say

01:18:41.100 what you're

01:18:41.420 going to

01:18:41.560 do

01:18:41.760 and stick

01:18:42.120 to it

01:18:42.480 well I'll

01:18:43.220 breeze through

01:18:43.700 the last

01:18:44.080 few links

01:18:44.480 we've got

01:18:44.900 because

01:18:45.280 someone who

01:18:46.300 hasn't

01:18:46.820 well has

01:18:47.240 been very

01:18:47.700 clear on his

01:18:48.140 positions but

01:18:48.680 they're not

01:18:48.980 in lockstep

01:18:49.460 with the

01:18:49.620 British

01:18:49.740 public

01:18:49.980 is Mullins

01:18:50.580 he said

01:18:51.740 this on

01:18:52.060 national

01:18:52.520 television

01:18:52.960 and I

01:18:53.320 think again

01:18:53.680 this should

01:18:53.960 just disqualify

01:18:54.660 him

01:18:54.840 is he about

01:18:55.440 to say

01:18:55.800 that he

01:18:56.100 just wants

01:18:56.560 cheap labour

01:18:57.160 no no

01:18:57.840 it's worse

01:18:59.080 for me it's

01:18:59.780 a no-brainer

01:19:00.420 from a business

01:19:01.300 point of view

01:19:01.900 it's a must

01:19:02.520 and you know

01:19:03.800 the quicker

01:19:04.240 that everybody

01:19:05.100 acknowledges that

01:19:06.200 without proof

01:19:08.260 of the vaccine

01:19:09.060 you can't go

01:19:09.740 into a pub

01:19:10.460 club

01:19:11.120 restaurant

01:19:11.780 gymnasium

01:19:12.820 anywhere at all

01:19:13.880 you can't travel

01:19:14.820 theatre

01:19:15.880 you can't even

01:19:16.780 go into work

01:19:17.560 I mean personally

01:19:18.380 I have to say

01:19:19.620 I don't even

01:19:20.300 think that we

01:19:21.340 should allow

01:19:21.740 people on the

01:19:22.460 streets unless

01:19:23.260 they've had the

01:19:23.700 vaccine

01:19:24.120 you are literally

01:19:25.220 going to be under

01:19:25.560 house arrest

01:19:26.240 literally just

01:19:28.260 detain you

01:19:29.260 yes

01:19:29.680 yeah

01:19:30.120 so that should

01:19:31.200 be an instant

01:19:31.560 disqualifier

01:19:32.020 what else should

01:19:32.560 be a disqualifier

01:19:33.120 as well

01:19:33.360 this is why

01:19:34.060 they should

01:19:34.340 have a coherent

01:19:34.840 philosophy

01:19:35.280 is Charlie

01:19:35.900 Munns is a

01:19:36.320 remainer

01:19:37.040 so when he was

01:19:39.160 asked about his

01:19:39.640 vaccine policy

01:19:40.320 by the way

01:19:40.720 in 2023

01:19:41.340 by Bev

01:19:41.800 Turner

01:19:42.040 he said

01:19:42.540 after the

01:19:43.240 Covid inquiry

01:19:43.740 had happened

01:19:44.040 he said

01:19:44.260 the only thing

01:19:44.720 the government

01:19:44.960 got right

01:19:45.260 was the vaccine

01:19:45.660 so he still

01:19:46.060 doubled down

01:19:46.500 on it

01:19:46.720 so he still

01:19:47.060 believes that

01:19:47.460 he's right

01:19:47.800 on that

01:19:48.080 but he's also

01:19:48.800 a remainer

01:19:49.360 who put up

01:19:49.660 a bollocks

01:19:50.080 to Brexit

01:19:50.580 poster on

01:19:51.400 his business

01:19:51.980 and refused

01:19:52.720 to take it

01:19:53.100 down when he

01:19:53.480 was told to

01:19:54.040 he donated

01:19:55.360 to Gina Miller's

01:19:56.280 high court

01:19:56.760 attempt to

01:19:57.380 overturn the

01:19:57.960 Brexit

01:19:58.200 referendum

01:19:58.700 sure

01:20:00.180 2018

01:20:00.720 problem is

01:20:01.720 2024

01:20:02.280 went on

01:20:03.100 GB News

01:20:03.660 argued against

01:20:04.860 Belinda DeLuci

01:20:05.540 who should

01:20:06.000 actually be a

01:20:06.480 reformed

01:20:06.720 candidate

01:20:06.940 she's lovely

01:20:07.480 she was a

01:20:08.440 Brexit party

01:20:09.040 MEP

01:20:09.360 saying

01:20:10.040 yeah

01:20:10.800 she's very

01:20:11.460 good

01:20:11.600 saying that

01:20:12.460 this is not

01:20:13.340 a good enough

01:20:13.700 excuse to say

01:20:14.320 that Brexit

01:20:14.680 hasn't been

01:20:15.040 done properly

01:20:15.600 and he named

01:20:16.200 Nigel

01:20:16.560 specifically

01:20:17.100 and then

01:20:18.220 people were

01:20:18.900 going oh

01:20:19.280 hang on a

01:20:19.720 minute

01:20:19.860 yeah that's

01:20:20.660 that's not

01:20:21.000 good

01:20:21.220 the vaccine

01:20:21.820 stuff

01:20:22.060 and specifically

01:20:22.460 the Brexit

01:20:22.860 stuff

01:20:23.140 maybe we should

01:20:23.760 ask him about

01:20:24.280 that when he

01:20:24.580 says he's going

01:20:24.880 to be a

01:20:25.100 candidate

01:20:25.320 so he goes on

01:20:25.960 Martin

01:20:26.160 Daubney yesterday

01:20:26.920 and Martin

01:20:27.820 asks him

01:20:28.340 and he goes

01:20:29.060 well no I haven't

01:20:30.080 come around to

01:20:30.420 their way I think

01:20:30.840 and they should

01:20:31.100 come around to

01:20:31.560 mine

01:20:31.780 they'll be

01:20:32.260 begging to

01:20:33.080 rejoin the EU

01:20:33.700 soon

01:20:34.020 so he'll be

01:20:35.020 a reform MP

01:20:36.260 the air to the

01:20:37.060 Brexit party

01:20:37.720 yeah

01:20:38.940 so then what

01:20:40.360 ended up

01:20:40.640 happening was

01:20:41.320 obviously Ben

01:20:42.600 Habib came out

01:20:43.460 and said

01:20:43.700 as far as I'm

01:20:47.180 concerned I'm

01:20:47.600 just thinking

01:20:47.860 where the hell

01:20:48.560 is this guy

01:20:49.280 come from

01:20:50.020 and why is he

01:20:50.860 trying to make

01:20:51.820 them look as

01:20:52.480 bad as possible

01:20:53.480 yeah

01:20:53.900 he gave him

01:20:54.440 he basically

01:20:54.920 he's given money

01:20:55.820 to the party

01:20:56.340 he's friendly

01:20:57.180 with Nigel

01:20:57.760 he wants some

01:20:58.420 political influence

01:20:59.140 because he's a bit

01:20:59.740 of a grifter

01:21:00.240 and so he's come

01:21:01.140 out and said

01:21:01.660 that I had one

01:21:02.260 conversation now

01:21:03.000 I'm going to be

01:21:03.280 a reform candidate

01:21:03.900 not good

01:21:07.320 so Ben posted

01:21:08.260 this and then

01:21:08.760 he had an

01:21:09.160 argument with

01:21:09.700 Gwaine Towler

01:21:10.560 Gwaine Towler

01:21:11.040 being Nigel

01:21:12.040 Farage's

01:21:12.440 former spokesperson

01:21:13.220 only left recently

01:21:14.360 but still a

01:21:14.760 diehard reform

01:21:15.580 advocate

01:21:16.040 and Gwaine

01:21:17.120 says something

01:21:17.920 very interesting

01:21:18.900 here as to

01:21:19.580 the mindset

01:21:20.200 of how reform

01:21:21.680 might be building

01:21:22.120 their coalition

01:21:22.720 to win we have

01:21:23.820 to change minds

01:21:24.540 and engage with

01:21:25.000 a bigger base

01:21:25.480 otherwise we are

01:21:26.100 pure fine

01:21:26.760 but politically

01:21:27.320 impotent

01:21:27.760 point being

01:21:29.140 Mullins hasn't

01:21:29.760 changed his mind

01:21:30.560 at all

01:21:31.040 so you need to

01:21:32.240 understand the

01:21:33.200 difference between

01:21:33.680 your critical

01:21:34.140 friends who

01:21:34.960 agree with you

01:21:35.860 on these things

01:21:36.460 and want you to

01:21:37.000 live up to your

01:21:37.420 potential

01:21:37.780 and people like

01:21:39.340 Mullins who are

01:21:40.000 infiltrators who

01:21:40.920 disagree with you

01:21:41.600 on everything

01:21:41.940 but see a wagon

01:21:44.240 with momentum

01:21:44.800 and want to jump

01:21:45.420 aboard

01:21:45.640 it's very interesting

01:21:46.120 I like Gwaine

01:21:46.720 a lot

01:21:47.140 good lad

01:21:48.640 good lad

01:21:49.120 he said to win

01:21:50.700 we have to

01:21:51.060 change minds

01:21:51.620 it's interesting

01:21:52.620 because actually

01:21:53.120 the STP isn't

01:21:54.200 interested in

01:21:54.700 changing anyone's

01:21:55.620 mind

01:21:55.940 about 50

01:21:56.760 most British

01:21:57.860 people agree

01:21:58.380 with the STP

01:21:58.740 on most things

01:21:59.420 our problem is

01:22:00.240 they don't know

01:22:00.600 about us

01:22:01.120 it's fascinating

01:22:02.120 that's very

01:22:02.660 very interesting

01:22:03.120 he wants to

01:22:03.660 change the

01:22:04.180 mind of the

01:22:04.640 public

01:22:04.900 it's very

01:22:06.480 different from

01:22:07.020 landing on a

01:22:07.800 coalition that

01:22:08.300 already exists

01:22:09.040 very different

01:22:10.200 that argument

01:22:11.480 that you'll be

01:22:12.700 politically impotent

01:22:14.020 if you stay

01:22:15.540 purist in your

01:22:17.340 goals

01:22:17.480 that's just an

01:22:18.160 argument to

01:22:19.140 consistently shift

01:22:20.540 wherever the

01:22:21.080 winds are blowing

01:22:21.900 in that

01:22:22.640 and that's

01:22:22.980 that's not a

01:22:23.580 principled

01:22:24.160 position

01:22:24.960 I don't know

01:22:25.620 this Gwaine

01:22:26.080 guy

01:22:26.280 I'll take

01:22:26.660 you guys

01:22:27.040 word for it

01:22:27.720 that he's a

01:22:28.460 decent chap

01:22:29.420 but that's

01:22:30.960 always the

01:22:31.520 excuse I see

01:22:32.360 for people

01:22:32.800 saying

01:22:33.120 well we need

01:22:34.060 to soften

01:22:34.820 our touch

01:22:35.340 we need to

01:22:36.120 water ourselves

01:22:37.220 down

01:22:37.660 constantly

01:22:38.260 which just

01:22:38.920 leads to you

01:22:39.760 ending up

01:22:41.080 in reforms

01:22:42.880 case

01:22:43.140 it would just

01:22:43.460 lead to

01:22:44.140 which is what

01:22:45.880 everybody wants

01:22:46.600 to avoid

01:22:47.160 exactly

01:22:47.580 but Gwaine

01:22:48.100 there

01:22:48.420 I mean

01:22:48.660 Ben has

01:22:49.020 put him

01:22:49.340 right

01:22:49.580 under the

01:22:50.180 reply tweet

01:22:51.720 there

01:22:51.980 you know

01:22:52.260 and you

01:22:53.040 prefer political

01:22:53.680 potencies

01:22:54.080 a little bit

01:22:54.420 of a jibe

01:22:54.840 without political

01:22:55.880 philosophy

01:22:56.400 and Ben

01:22:56.760 is totally

01:22:57.220 right

01:22:57.540 you've got

01:22:57.900 to get

01:22:58.120 your philosophy

01:22:58.580 right

01:22:59.020 but what

01:22:59.620 they're doing

01:23:00.020 I mean

01:23:00.500 the public

01:23:00.980 are already

01:23:01.480 where we

01:23:02.020 are

01:23:02.360 you know

01:23:03.360 what Gwaine

01:23:04.120 is trying

01:23:04.400 to do

01:23:04.620 is to move

01:23:05.000 the piano

01:23:05.460 to the

01:23:05.800 piano stool

01:23:06.380 which is a

01:23:06.740 little bit

01:23:06.960 more difficult

01:23:07.360 yeah quite

01:23:08.300 very good

01:23:08.820 so Zia Yusuf

01:23:09.880 quite a few

01:23:10.800 hours after

01:23:11.540 Charlie Mullen

01:23:12.080 said that

01:23:12.580 I'm going to

01:23:13.160 be I don't know

01:23:17.160 there's a few

01:23:28.000 problems with

01:23:28.460 this

01:23:28.620 first of all

01:23:29.220 you waited

01:23:29.960 basically a full

01:23:30.620 day's news cycle

01:23:31.220 until 10pm

01:23:31.840 to address it

01:23:32.480 which is not

01:23:33.220 good comms

01:23:33.900 John's got

01:23:34.680 a pretty

01:23:35.420 sharp barb

01:23:37.600 underneath

01:23:38.020 but anyway

01:23:38.480 carry on

01:23:38.960 I won't speak

01:23:39.580 about John Wong

01:23:40.000 also

01:23:41.820 Zia Yusuf

01:23:43.740 like Charlie

01:23:44.580 Mullins

01:23:44.940 decided to

01:23:45.960 donate to

01:23:46.600 the party

01:23:47.040 so Charlie

01:23:48.800 Mullins

01:23:49.020 isn't a

01:23:49.580 nobody

01:23:49.860 he's not

01:23:50.140 some random

01:23:50.700 like he

01:23:51.060 knows Farage

01:23:51.620 personally

01:23:52.200 and so the

01:23:53.380 suggestion there

01:23:54.040 was he's

01:23:54.580 leveraging

01:23:55.100 financial and

01:23:56.580 personal gain

01:23:57.320 to insert

01:23:57.840 himself into

01:23:58.200 a movement

01:23:58.580 that he's

01:23:59.040 never been a

01:23:59.460 part of

01:23:59.720 and fundamentally

01:24:00.300 disagrees with

01:24:00.980 and then

01:24:01.880 hilarious that

01:24:02.820 critics of

01:24:03.320 said party

01:24:03.780 would use

01:24:04.140 drivel to

01:24:04.560 launch into

01:24:04.880 attacks

01:24:05.180 now again

01:24:05.800 it's saying

01:24:06.160 that the

01:24:06.420 critical friends

01:24:06.940 of reform

01:24:07.260 are outside

01:24:07.700 agitators

01:24:08.200 trying to

01:24:08.580 derail us

01:24:09.040 whereas all

01:24:09.720 the people

01:24:10.020 within reform

01:24:10.580 who are

01:24:10.800 trying to

01:24:11.220 broaden the

01:24:11.980 coalition

01:24:12.360 and bring

01:24:12.880 in people

01:24:13.340 who don't

01:24:13.680 necessarily

01:24:14.000 agree with

01:24:14.440 us

01:24:14.620 are on

01:24:15.180 our side

01:24:15.620 and the

01:24:15.820 point being

01:24:16.300 it doesn't

01:24:17.700 recognise that

01:24:18.320 reform's own

01:24:19.040 voters

01:24:19.460 like me

01:24:20.200 were saying

01:24:20.680 well you

01:24:21.080 don't want

01:24:21.360 Mullins

01:24:21.660 because he's

01:24:22.020 a Remainer

01:24:22.480 and he

01:24:22.700 wanted to be

01:24:22.940 locked in

01:24:23.340 my home

01:24:23.640 for not

01:24:23.880 taking the

01:24:24.260 jab

01:24:24.520 but it

01:24:24.760 it all

01:24:24.920 comes back

01:24:26.020 to the

01:24:26.240 philosophy

01:24:26.760 on an

01:24:27.340 important

01:24:27.660 matter

01:24:27.940 say trade

01:24:28.720 I don't

01:24:29.320 know what

01:24:29.600 their view

01:24:30.100 is

01:24:30.320 something

01:24:30.680 like

01:24:31.340 Chinese

01:24:32.220 electric

01:24:33.140 vehicles

01:24:33.580 which will

01:24:34.000 take the

01:24:34.760 entire market

01:24:35.400 if you sit

01:24:35.840 there like

01:24:36.220 a lemon

01:24:36.600 and let it

01:24:37.140 happen

01:24:37.360 you won't

01:24:37.660 produce any

01:24:38.140 cars

01:24:38.420 and I don't

01:24:39.300 know what

01:24:39.480 their position

01:24:39.940 I know what

01:24:40.300 my position

01:24:40.780 is which is a

01:24:41.380 protectionist

01:24:41.920 position more

01:24:42.420 like Trump

01:24:42.840 and Vance

01:24:43.480 I mean that's

01:24:44.220 the only sensible

01:24:44.800 viable position

01:24:45.580 if you want to

01:24:46.120 keep industry

01:24:46.580 here but I

01:24:47.680 don't know what

01:24:48.240 they think about

01:24:48.780 these things and I

01:24:49.640 worry that they

01:24:50.260 don't

01:24:50.520 so I would

01:24:52.600 probably assume

01:24:53.340 like you do

01:24:53.980 that it's

01:24:54.320 probably some

01:24:54.800 kind of

01:24:55.320 Thatcherite

01:24:56.220 free trade

01:24:57.240 tried and

01:24:58.660 failed

01:24:59.040 it worked so

01:25:00.300 well the first

01:25:01.060 time look at

01:25:01.760 Britain now

01:25:02.440 yeah quite

01:25:03.360 yes so to

01:25:04.620 conclude then

01:25:05.260 seems that

01:25:06.440 reform actually

01:25:07.380 might need

01:25:07.880 critical friends

01:25:08.800 actual critical

01:25:09.680 friends more

01:25:10.920 than it knows

01:25:11.480 so I suggest

01:25:12.100 perhaps rather

01:25:12.880 than thinking

01:25:13.300 they're outside

01:25:13.760 agitators trying

01:25:14.520 to derail the

01:25:15.060 movement give

01:25:16.200 them a listen

01:25:16.720 and it might

01:25:17.180 help you win

01:25:17.700 more anyway

01:25:19.120 we've got some

01:25:19.600 written comments

01:25:20.120 on the website

01:25:20.620 sat on that

01:25:21.760 pile of gove

01:25:22.880 money

01:25:23.260 like you are

01:25:24.320 right now

01:25:24.780 oh yeah the

01:25:25.380 gove household

01:25:25.860 just love me

01:25:26.760 I bet

01:25:27.260 anyway so we've

01:25:28.500 got some written

01:25:30.000 comments for about

01:25:30.760 five or ten minutes

01:25:31.520 left from

01:25:32.400 James McMeeking

01:25:33.320 great to see

01:25:33.880 William on

01:25:34.300 this country would

01:25:34.780 be much better

01:25:35.260 place if the two

01:25:35.800 main parties were

01:25:36.380 SDP and reform

01:25:37.300 instead of Labour

01:25:38.280 and Tories

01:25:38.780 so what's SDP's

01:25:41.000 consistent polling

01:25:42.060 at the moment

01:25:42.900 we'd I mean

01:25:43.500 honestly at the

01:25:44.400 moment we're in

01:25:44.960 building phase still

01:25:45.860 and people think

01:25:46.460 you can do it

01:25:46.940 overnight but

01:25:47.720 there have been

01:25:48.740 four insurgent

01:25:49.660 parties in British

01:25:50.620 politics in political

01:25:51.700 history

01:25:52.060 Labour and 1902

01:25:53.240 took 20 years to

01:25:54.260 get into power

01:25:54.760 post-war liberals

01:25:55.980 they were knackered

01:25:56.560 60 candidates

01:25:57.360 took literally 15

01:25:58.420 years to get back

01:25:59.240 as a national party

01:26:00.400 Greens which was

01:26:01.480 the ecology party

01:26:02.220 70s 20 years

01:26:03.760 UKIP

01:26:04.440 because people say

01:26:06.260 you know like

01:26:07.260 Nigel came from

01:26:07.940 nowhere Brexit

01:26:08.460 party came from

01:26:09.020 nowhere

01:26:09.240 Nigel's it's a

01:26:11.080 quarter of a

01:26:11.440 century of work

01:26:12.120 you've been going

01:26:12.600 since the 90s

01:26:13.520 no we have we

01:26:14.360 collapsed we

01:26:14.940 literally we

01:26:15.940 made a huge

01:26:16.540 impact in the 80s

01:26:17.780 and then collapsed

01:26:19.080 to virtually nothing

01:26:19.960 you know tiny little

01:26:20.740 pockets so

01:26:21.280 literally six years

01:26:22.540 ago we started

01:26:23.540 building again

01:26:24.240 and our path is

01:26:25.280 pretty much what

01:26:26.040 an insurgent party

01:26:26.760 should be

01:26:27.240 2019 election we

01:26:28.700 had 20 candidates

01:26:29.600 last year we had

01:26:30.660 122 next time we'll

01:26:32.040 have 300 out of

01:26:32.620 400 and we'll do

01:26:33.880 much better at

01:26:34.460 everything so then

01:26:35.040 the path for us is

01:26:35.960 growth and we are

01:26:37.420 small but I think we

01:26:38.240 our foundations are

01:26:39.380 correct we've got

01:26:40.160 we've done the work

01:26:41.100 and most people agree

01:26:42.600 with us on most

01:26:43.320 things and I'm very

01:26:43.960 optimistic we'll keep

01:26:44.780 on going

01:26:45.080 so I will say

01:26:46.180 I'll do comments

01:26:47.600 in a moment

01:26:47.980 I don't want this

01:26:49.440 to sound insulting

01:26:50.060 at all but I

01:26:51.340 think you've got a

01:26:51.940 large market of

01:26:52.720 particularly the

01:26:53.180 young men that

01:26:53.840 we've just said

01:26:54.560 about that are

01:26:55.240 interested in

01:26:56.020 national conservatism

01:26:57.320 and also don't like

01:26:58.780 the outsourcing of

01:27:00.140 their economic

01:27:00.780 opportunities to

01:27:01.700 distant lands who

01:27:03.160 fundamentally hate

01:27:03.900 them yeah you've

01:27:04.400 got a large

01:27:04.860 constituency could

01:27:05.480 snap up there

01:27:06.060 do you think that

01:27:07.040 the legacy branding

01:27:08.000 of the SDP and

01:27:09.580 the fact that the

01:27:10.580 graphics are not

01:27:11.240 necessarily exciting

01:27:12.280 no I don't I

01:27:13.520 know because we've

01:27:14.300 we've actually because

01:27:15.580 you know I have

01:27:16.180 limited resources so

01:27:17.200 the we've we've had

01:27:18.060 to target our

01:27:19.120 election capacity in

01:27:21.100 specific areas where

01:27:22.160 we're strong now we

01:27:23.120 in South Leeds South

01:27:24.280 Leeds council of

01:27:24.940 states industrial city

01:27:26.400 we've tried it this

01:27:27.620 has been road tested

01:27:29.020 if you ever said

01:27:29.780 marketing I say does

01:27:31.060 it work yes it

01:27:31.900 worked we started with

01:27:32.740 500 votes we in the

01:27:34.420 end after three years

01:27:35.320 of trying this the

01:27:36.020 public loved it they

01:27:36.820 wanted more as soon as

01:27:38.320 they found out what

01:27:39.140 this offer was things

01:27:40.360 like the name that

01:27:41.000 didn't bother anyone

01:27:41.600 at all absolutely

01:27:42.200 fine and and social

01:27:43.540 democracy is a good

01:27:44.460 thing on on something

01:27:45.920 like migration I

01:27:46.940 really wish we had a

01:27:47.700 little bit of social

01:27:48.280 democracy because 70

01:27:49.080 percent of people are

01:27:50.000 on my position I'm not

01:27:51.340 asking for very much so

01:27:52.220 no all of that's very

01:27:53.360 good the other main

01:27:54.260 advantage is that it's

01:27:55.520 quite hard to hit us

01:27:56.520 actually and we do

01:27:57.840 take some culturally

01:27:59.180 some quite spicy

01:28:01.140 positions and that we

01:28:02.700 you know friend Eric

01:28:03.820 Kaufman has advised us

01:28:05.180 that actually if you

01:28:07.100 want to go all the way

01:28:07.860 not get in stay in the

01:28:09.340 angry corner but if you

01:28:10.220 want to win a general

01:28:10.920 election you've got to

01:28:12.180 have a shield of some

01:28:13.020 sort and actually the

01:28:14.620 decency the decent

01:28:15.660 populism that we offer

01:28:16.580 is the shield I don't

01:28:18.100 want anyone in our

01:28:18.940 party I wouldn't do it

01:28:19.940 myself to say anything

01:28:21.000 that you would be

01:28:21.980 ashamed of saying in a

01:28:23.040 pub or a cafe in any

01:28:24.220 part of our country and

01:28:24.960 that's what the offer is

01:28:25.840 decent popularism it can

01:28:27.440 go all the way I'm very

01:28:28.740 optimistic about it all

01:28:29.640 we've got to do is keep

01:28:30.340 on going and not worry

01:28:31.480 too much row around

01:28:32.480 boat not worry too much

01:28:33.540 about what reform are

01:28:34.420 doing I would give

01:28:35.440 credit to Nigel and

01:28:36.440 reform he's been at it

01:28:37.940 you know for a quarter of

01:28:38.640 a century they are ahead

01:28:40.180 of us in terms of how

01:28:41.260 long they've really been

01:28:41.900 doing it but we're

01:28:43.480 growing very rapidly so I

01:28:44.920 think we can go all the

01:28:45.600 way excellent Andrew

01:28:46.900 Cooper also compliments

01:28:48.000 your counterpoints that

01:28:49.980 you've provided bleach

01:28:52.180 demon William being the

01:28:53.460 STB is a small party

01:28:54.440 what are your incremental

01:28:55.300 goals to being elected

01:28:56.580 will you focus on winning

01:28:57.340 local council first then

01:28:58.460 gain momentum by proving

01:28:59.520 your policies to gain

01:29:00.360 seats in parliament or

01:29:01.340 there just be more of a

01:29:02.080 focus at the next general

01:29:03.180 election in 29 it's a bit

01:29:04.400 of both but we it's

01:29:05.200 basically the green not

01:29:06.180 not on their policies but

01:29:07.320 on their type of less

01:29:08.720 less yeah so no so our

01:29:11.040 our our Brighton is Leeds

01:29:12.800 so I concentrate a lot of

01:29:14.500 effort and resources in

01:29:15.380 Leeds South Leeds we

01:29:16.600 started rolling it over

01:29:17.540 we've won an election

01:29:18.260 every single year for the

01:29:19.160 last three years there's

01:29:20.800 no elections this year but

01:29:21.640 the following year I

01:29:22.540 intend to do the same

01:29:23.260 thing you've got to

01:29:24.420 concentrate you really have

01:29:25.640 to I can't spread the

01:29:27.120 jam thinly over the whole

01:29:28.220 country we have other

01:29:29.120 strong pockets but South

01:29:30.560 Leeds is our Brighton so

01:29:31.680 that's the strategy and the

01:29:32.860 strategy nationally is just

01:29:34.020 to double down on the

01:29:35.100 number of candidates you

01:29:35.760 you've got to grow and

01:29:36.980 we'll do this we will do

01:29:38.380 this one last one Glenn

01:29:40.900 Van Meter a big shout out

01:29:42.680 to Pete Cameron and the

01:29:43.680 rest of Lotus's back

01:29:44.420 office when my copy of

01:29:45.340 Islander 2 didn't arrive

01:29:46.420 they took good care of

01:29:47.140 us and got things sorted

01:29:47.800 their work is greatly

01:29:48.560 appreciated finally got to

01:29:50.000 read Josh's poem yes

01:29:50.960 Islander 3 in the works

01:29:53.420 and hopefully we've

01:29:54.440 resolved all of the

01:29:55.580 problems with shipping and

01:29:56.660 printing before because we

01:29:58.800 don't want the same

01:29:59.520 problems to crop up again

01:30:00.720 because we want to give

01:30:01.580 you guys the best service

01:30:02.760 possible yes and thanks to

01:30:04.080 all your support we can

01:30:05.500 keep the lights on and

01:30:06.120 that but we are still

01:30:06.920 basically held together by

01:30:07.760 duct tape and goodwill over

01:30:09.120 here and so anytime that

01:30:11.460 someone else does something

01:30:12.700 wrong it's a real headache to

01:30:14.780 try and help us clean it up

01:30:15.840 but anyway we are basically

01:30:17.880 out of time I will be back

01:30:19.340 at three o'clock with

01:30:20.160 Thomson talks William thank

01:30:22.260 you thank you where can

01:30:23.160 people go to find out more

01:30:24.160 about the STP

01:30:24.740 stp.org.uk or national

01:30:28.020 twitter which you'll find

01:30:29.000 if you put STP in if you

01:30:30.540 want to have a look at some

01:30:31.160 of the videos which are

01:30:31.820 great STP just put that into

01:30:33.720 the into YouTube and I'm

01:30:35.400 William Cluson on X

01:30:36.340 excellent thank you very much

01:30:37.640 we will be back tomorrow at

01:30:38.900 one o'clock until then take

01:30:40.360 care and goodbye

01:30:41.080 goodbye

01:30:41.140 you

The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters - January 15, 2025

The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters #1079

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