The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters - The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters #1317

00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome to Podcast of the Lotus Eaters, episode 1317, on this, the 15th of December,

00:00:07.100 the year of our Lord 2025. I'm joined by Faraz and guest James Esses, former barrister and now

00:00:15.000 founder of Just Therapy, and you're also a campaigner. What are you campaigning for?

00:00:20.760 Sense and safeguarding, but mostly against this radical trans ideology that's infected our world,

00:00:27.420 unfortunately. Well, that seems very sensible, so glad to have you on the show.

00:00:31.600 Good. Also, thank you to Jamie, who sent us a deck of cards where every single card is a picture of

00:00:39.780 Tony Blair. That is wonderful. Thank you very much. We will treasure those. And also, poignantly,

00:00:47.000 from Verne, sent us this Christmas card of an Australian beach from Australia. Now, obviously,

00:00:52.460 coming airmail, that would have been sent long before the weekend. So, rather poignant,

00:00:57.700 given that the things that we're going to be discussing today are the Bondi beach attack.

00:01:02.700 I don't think we can cover this by any means exhaustively, because it's so soon after the

00:01:08.040 event and the picture is so muddled, but we can start to frame it. And then I think we need to

00:01:13.680 pivot to, basically, perhaps the state of morality in the West, and particularly on the things that

00:01:21.900 you've been so strong on. So, I think that's where we're going to focus today. So, let's start with

00:01:26.320 the Bondi beach bit. Yes, let's do that. Before I get into it, I just want to do some frame setting

00:01:32.980 as to what it is that we're dealing with on a regular basis now. On a civilizational scale.

00:01:38.760 On a civilizational scale. And I want to start with Germany, because an incident that was heavily

00:01:45.220 overshadowed by the Bondi massacre was that five people were arrested in Germany because they were

00:01:52.020 planning to attack a Christmas market in Bavaria, I believe. And it was three Moroccans, an Egyptian,

00:01:59.520 and a Syrian, with the Egyptian being the cleric and providing the religious justification for this

00:02:07.180 attack. And just as a quick note, Egypt provides a huge number of clerics that go into mosques in

00:02:14.640 Europe, coming out of Al-Azhar. Al-Azhar University is one of the oldest classical schools of Islamic

00:02:21.420 learning. And if you know what they teach, you would think that there's a huge problem with getting

00:02:27.480 any of them to be imams in mosques in Europe, because they teach precisely this kind of thing

00:02:35.220 as being largely justified. It's quite horrible, but you should look into it. And if you don't,

00:02:43.380 I'll do an episode about it.

00:02:45.060 For us, just on that, why are Western intelligence agencies not aware of this?

00:02:49.540 They are. They are, clearly. Why do they choose to do nothing about it?

00:02:56.160 Yes.

00:02:56.480 That's a different question. And I think it's because of a loss of civilizational confidence.

00:03:02.300 It's because of an unwillingness to confront evil. It's because of a lack of moral character

00:03:08.280 on the part of leadership, a lack of respect for national identity and national religion.

00:03:14.140 It's generally a sign of collapse that people who graduate from Al-Azhar are then invited to come

00:03:20.220 and become imams. I don't know if this guy came out of Azhar as well. Like, I haven't seen his name,

00:03:25.960 so I haven't been able to look at it. But generally, this is where you would go.

00:03:31.560 Because these German Christmas market attacks, I mean, they are so galling. I mean, every year one

00:03:36.360 happens. I remember when it happened last year. I couldn't get to sleep until about 3 or 4 a.m.

00:03:40.180 because it was just so horrific. And that was one guy in a car.

00:03:43.940 And that one was Talib al-Abd al-Muhsin, who was a Saudi atheist who got angry because the

00:03:50.700 German state was ignoring him and came to the conclusion that it only respects force.

00:03:55.540 And he was Shia, one of the few Shia attackers, one of the very few Shia attackers.

00:04:01.500 I mean, this is five guys. Had they pulled this off, I mean, it would have been an absolute massacre.

00:04:05.380 They were planning a van massacre.

00:04:06.480 And I'm just hoping that this year, this is the German Christmas market attack,

00:04:11.000 but there isn't going to be another one that pops up in a few days' time.

00:04:13.880 Yep. We just don't know. We just don't know.

00:04:18.700 And then I also want to point out that in France, Paris shut down its New Year's Eve celebrations

00:04:24.260 because they were worried about their ability to provide security.

00:04:29.880 So they've moved to some kind of recorded concert and sort of trying to avoid big crowds

00:04:35.000 because they don't want another attack on the Champs-Elysees, essentially.

00:04:41.540 It's the same story. If you don't put security around your country,

00:04:44.860 you have to put security around everything in your country.

00:04:47.000 Well, exactly. Exactly.

00:04:48.620 Which is harder.

00:04:49.660 Yeah. And then before going on to Bondi Beach,

00:04:53.040 I just want to mention what has been happening in Australia before that.

00:05:00.060 So here we have a video of Muslims in Sydney letting off fireworks to celebrate the 7th October attacks.

00:05:08.180 They thought it was brilliant, and they went ahead to celebrate it with fireworks.

00:05:13.240 You had protesters chanting F the Jews.

00:05:20.220 And where are the Jews? Outside of the Sydney Opera House on 9 October.

00:05:25.840 Let's just remember that a guy has just gone to jail for two years

00:05:28.580 for tweeting something significantly milder than that crowd were chanting.

00:05:32.520 Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:05:33.940 I want to sort of show this speech here for a quick second.

00:05:41.480 This is a celebration in Sydney of the 7th October massacre.

00:05:45.660 Let's watch it.

00:05:46.360 You get the idea, but in case you were wondering,

00:06:13.380 the flag that they're waving is the flag of Tawheed.

00:06:17.160 It says there is no God but God, and Muhammad is his, I would say, false messenger.

00:06:23.500 This is also the flag.

00:06:25.220 This is also the emblem on the flag of Saudi Arabia.

00:06:28.160 And this is also the flag that was used by Al-Qaeda in Syria.

00:06:32.500 So when these guys say that they're celebrating,

00:06:35.280 the security services knew that these people were running around in their midst.

00:06:39.460 You're a former criminal barrister, and you're probably quite good at divining people's intent.

00:06:44.860 Were you able to glean his intent from that?

00:06:49.180 I mean, it's just pure revelry.

00:06:51.860 I mean, jubilation in as many innocent people as possible being killed.

00:06:56.320 I mean, it cannot be anything other than that.

00:06:58.360 I mean, that's the craziness about the world we're living in these days,

00:07:01.820 because, you know, historically, people involved in wars,

00:07:07.220 even people, you know, so-called freedom fighters,

00:07:09.580 often would kill begrudgingly, you know, to achieve a set purpose,

00:07:14.760 but actually wouldn't want to just kill for the sake of it.

00:07:16.960 But here with this group and this Islamic terror that swept the globe,

00:07:20.960 the more they kill, the better.

00:07:22.700 I mean, he says it himself.

00:07:23.980 I'm smiling.

00:07:25.680 I mean, for him, it's happy.

00:07:26.640 This is a time for celebration.

00:07:28.740 The number of innocent people have been raped and killed.

00:07:33.400 It's pure, unadulterated evil.

00:07:35.820 And in your experience of, if you've, I don't know,

00:07:39.340 if you've done many cases on sort of speech,

00:07:42.900 I'm sure if you're barrister in this country, you must have done,

00:07:45.900 does that appear to pass the test of criminalised speech?

00:07:50.520 Well, you know, on a personal level,

00:07:51.920 I've got quite a high threshold for free speech and what should be criminalised,

00:07:55.360 but that, if you consider some of the individuals

00:07:57.320 that have been prosecuted and even imprisoned in the United Kingdom,

00:08:00.680 for example, I mean, that goes way, way beyond it.

00:08:05.360 Right, it's not just me, though.

00:08:06.580 Well, but have you considered the food?

00:08:09.940 Because Australian politicians are thinking about the food

00:08:13.940 and this is what they were saying before these attacks,

00:08:16.560 before the Bondi Massacre.

00:08:17.500 Living in a monocultural society, it would be so boring.

00:08:21.540 The food would be all the same.

00:08:23.500 If you walked down Rundle Street and went out for a feed,

00:08:26.480 there'd be all the same restaurants.

00:08:29.380 Literally the Piers Morgan line.

00:08:31.060 Yeah.

00:08:31.400 I will sell my country for a curry.

00:08:32.800 Yeah.

00:08:34.360 So this is the sort of mindset here.

00:08:37.780 And you had another politician trying to bring the ISIS brides, so-called,

00:08:43.820 that is, women who willingly travelled to Syria to join Islamic State.

00:08:48.660 He, Tony Burke, wanted to bring them back to Australia

00:08:52.640 because, clearly, you could never have enough of this stuff.

00:08:56.120 It's worth saying that the first terrorist attack in the West,

00:09:04.460 Islamic terrorist attack in the West,

00:09:06.440 was the so-called Battle of Broken Hill,

00:09:10.060 where two Muslims answered the call of jihad in 1915

00:09:15.340 to obey the caliph of the Ottoman Empire

00:09:20.780 and randomly began shooting Australians

00:09:25.480 while they were having a picnic on the 1st of January, 1915.

00:09:31.980 So this is not new.

00:09:33.920 None of this is new.

00:09:35.060 Pattern of behaviour, you might say.

00:09:36.420 You might notice that there's a pattern there.

00:09:38.640 Yes, you might notice that there's a pattern there.

00:09:40.640 And then we get to yesterday's massacre itself

00:09:45.080 or to the massacre on the 13th of December.

00:09:47.460 So this is the context of what we're seeing.

00:09:51.940 Now, in terms of the attack itself,

00:09:54.180 we had around 10 minutes...

00:09:56.680 Oh, oh, one important note, one important note.

00:10:00.120 The Australians, in their wisdom,

00:10:02.700 saw it fit to ban Carl Benjamin from entering the country

00:10:06.200 without issuing a formal ban,

00:10:08.140 just making sure that they did give him a visa.

00:10:10.500 But they do want to bring ISIS brides

00:10:13.460 because, as far as they're concerned,

00:10:16.480 what you might hear from the mouths

00:10:19.120 of the Lotus Eaters presenters

00:10:21.300 and of Carl Benjamin

00:10:23.020 is more dangerous

00:10:24.200 than what we just saw on the streets of Sydney.

00:10:27.260 Well, I mean, on one level it is

00:10:28.320 because it's dangerous to the rulers of Australia.

00:10:31.820 The question is whether it's dangerous

00:10:33.340 to the people of Australia.

00:10:34.380 I don't think it's considered.

00:10:35.560 No, no.

00:10:36.440 They don't seem to care about that.

00:10:38.220 But that's a great point.

00:10:39.560 I actually saw a meme

00:10:40.400 which has got a picture of the shooter

00:10:42.320 and then next to it,

00:10:43.180 another picture of another man.

00:10:44.240 It says only one of these people

00:10:45.240 was banned from Australia

00:10:46.140 and the other person is Novak Djokovic, right?

00:10:48.500 So, you know, there is a point here

00:10:50.120 around who are these countries letting in

00:10:52.140 and the ridiculous reasons

00:10:53.560 for keeping people out.

00:10:54.580 And yes, you know,

00:10:55.800 these terrorists are allowed in,

00:10:57.400 it seems willy-nilly,

00:10:58.200 both in Australia and here as well.

00:10:59.780 I mean, it's really quite concerning.

00:11:02.780 Well, thanks to the Online Safety Act

00:11:07.520 and Nadine Dory's,

00:11:09.560 we can't show you the post

00:11:11.700 that I wanted to show you

00:11:12.840 about the attack,

00:11:15.180 but I will tell you briefly what happened.

00:11:18.780 There were 10 minutes of shooting

00:11:22.060 from a bolt-action rifle

00:11:24.020 and from a shotgun

00:11:24.900 by a father and son,

00:11:29.100 Naveed Akram and his father.

00:11:31.160 And they kept on firing into the crowd

00:11:34.880 and they had two IEDs in their vehicle,

00:11:38.340 which seems to suggest to me

00:11:40.600 that this was planned as a shooting

00:11:43.680 followed by suicide bombing attack.

00:11:46.460 Two attackers, two IEDs.

00:11:48.200 I would assume,

00:11:49.360 I don't know yet for certain,

00:11:51.160 that the IEDs would have been suicide vests.

00:11:53.480 IEDs means improvised explosive device.

00:11:56.620 You make a homemade explosive.

00:11:58.560 The police in Australia were saying

00:12:00.020 that it was a rudimentary,

00:12:01.700 that these were rudimentary devices,

00:12:03.120 not particularly advanced.

00:12:05.240 The shooting was decent,

00:12:07.800 good shooting,

00:12:08.760 in terms of, you know,

00:12:10.760 showing maybe training.

00:12:12.600 Well, the thing that got me about that...

00:12:13.440 But just as easily a lot of practice.

00:12:15.680 So there's no reason to believe

00:12:16.800 that they were trained

00:12:17.620 by a particular militia.

00:12:19.560 The thing that got me about that

00:12:20.580 is that that guy,

00:12:21.600 the guy we had a photo of a moment ago,

00:12:23.120 he was using a bolt-action rifle

00:12:24.480 with an optic on the top.

00:12:27.940 Yeah.

00:12:28.120 And one of the first victims

00:12:29.680 was a 10-year-old girl.

00:12:31.440 Yeah.

00:12:31.540 So, but,

00:12:32.080 and it had an optic.

00:12:33.140 That was very deliberate.

00:12:34.400 That was deliberate.

00:12:34.880 That was deliberate.

00:12:35.560 This is,

00:12:36.140 this is,

00:12:36.840 this is a level of malice,

00:12:38.280 which I just don't think

00:12:39.680 the Western mind

00:12:40.320 can readily understand.

00:12:42.180 Oh, look.

00:12:42.940 two of the links are sort of,

00:12:46.820 you know,

00:12:47.240 not allowed to see

00:12:48.520 because it might offend you

00:12:50.120 and it might prompt you

00:12:52.460 to think that there is a problem here.

00:12:54.080 But anyway,

00:12:55.180 this was an attack

00:12:56.380 targeting the Jewish community

00:12:58.680 as they were celebrating Hanukkah.

00:13:01.620 And this was clearly deliberate.

00:13:04.420 One of the rifles had,

00:13:05.640 had a scope

00:13:06.460 and they were going around

00:13:08.320 shooting,

00:13:09.460 not randomly,

00:13:11.840 not randomly,

00:13:13.180 they tried to kill

00:13:14.600 as many innocent people

00:13:16.300 as they could.

00:13:17.680 And the

00:13:19.300 intent,

00:13:22.300 clearly,

00:13:23.020 was to murder

00:13:24.360 as many unarmed civilians

00:13:26.980 as they could

00:13:28.080 while these Jewish civilians

00:13:30.980 were celebrating Hanukkah.

00:13:32.360 This was,

00:13:32.940 this was very obviously the case.

00:13:35.320 16 people,

00:13:36.600 including one of the shooters,

00:13:38.040 were killed

00:13:38.760 and I think 40 were injured in total.

00:13:42.540 And the attack went on

00:13:43.840 for around 10 minutes

00:13:44.960 and eventually

00:13:47.000 the police managed to intervene.

00:13:51.360 But the initial reaction

00:13:53.120 of the police,

00:13:53.820 Jesus Christ,

00:13:54.400 they've sort of blocked everything.

00:13:56.040 The initial reaction

00:13:57.120 of the police

00:13:57.880 was to do nothing

00:13:59.340 for a few minutes.

00:14:00.640 Even though

00:14:01.640 there were officers

00:14:02.920 on the scene,

00:14:03.840 they seemed to have hidden

00:14:04.760 and frozen.

00:14:06.880 Well,

00:14:07.180 there's another question there.

00:14:08.360 There were,

00:14:08.660 there were female officers.

00:14:10.020 Well,

00:14:10.360 there were at least

00:14:11.120 two female officers

00:14:12.020 and one male officer

00:14:12.940 who were seen hiding.

00:14:15.740 Or with one of the female officers

00:14:17.540 sort of raising her hands.

00:14:20.980 And the police station

00:14:22.060 was around three minutes away.

00:14:23.540 It took anything

00:14:24.240 from 10 to 20 minutes

00:14:25.400 for the police

00:14:26.020 to actually arrive

00:14:27.300 on the scene.

00:14:28.360 And yeah,

00:14:32.040 this is where

00:14:32.920 the police station is

00:14:34.140 and this is where

00:14:35.160 the attack was.

00:14:36.500 Okay,

00:14:36.660 so they could have

00:14:37.460 easily walked it

00:14:38.180 at a leisurely stroll

00:14:39.640 and got there faster.

00:14:40.620 They would have gone

00:14:41.420 on there faster

00:14:41.940 than in 10 minutes,

00:14:42.700 yes.

00:14:44.640 One of the interesting

00:14:45.500 details that you highlighted

00:14:46.580 for me,

00:14:46.920 because you've seen

00:14:47.440 a bit more of the video

00:14:48.140 than I have,

00:14:49.340 is,

00:14:50.860 I mean,

00:14:51.180 one of the shooters

00:14:52.260 was up on a bridge

00:14:53.020 and it's just a bridge

00:14:54.400 that a lot of people use.

00:14:55.500 So you did have Australians

00:14:56.700 who didn't know

00:14:57.440 what was going on,

00:14:58.480 who were just trying

00:14:59.180 to walk across.

00:15:00.060 Yes.

00:15:00.420 And he was shooing them away.

00:15:01.900 So it was a very targeted attack.

00:15:03.780 He could have shot

00:15:04.660 random Australians,

00:15:06.880 but it was very targeted

00:15:07.720 on the Jewish.

00:15:08.180 He was very obviously

00:15:08.860 focused on the Jews

00:15:10.020 because this was Chabad.

00:15:13.200 And I'll talk about them

00:15:14.600 in a second.

00:15:15.680 And they were clearly

00:15:16.580 his target.

00:15:17.960 And he'd researched

00:15:18.680 his target

00:15:19.220 because they had

00:15:20.280 advertised this event

00:15:22.080 online

00:15:22.660 and anybody would have

00:15:23.520 known about it.

00:15:24.160 but he picked

00:15:25.260 this particular group

00:15:26.420 and he killed,

00:15:27.520 you know,

00:15:28.480 15 people,

00:15:30.280 including a 10-year-old girl,

00:15:31.900 including an 87-year-old lady,

00:15:35.040 because he just wanted

00:15:37.820 to kill Jews.

00:15:39.860 And the remarkable thing

00:15:41.220 about it

00:15:41.720 is that this was

00:15:42.520 a father and son team.

00:15:44.580 This wasn't just

00:15:45.840 two random guys.

00:15:47.340 This was a father

00:15:48.080 and son team.

00:15:50.000 And the mother,

00:15:52.260 the mother of the boy,

00:15:54.160 insists that he was

00:15:54.960 a good boy

00:15:55.600 and that everybody

00:15:56.840 would wish

00:15:57.400 to have had a son

00:15:58.260 like him

00:15:58.880 and that he didn't

00:16:00.260 have any guns

00:16:02.160 at the property

00:16:02.780 even though it seems

00:16:04.420 obvious that his father

00:16:05.900 had the guns.

00:16:06.600 Now, there are some

00:16:07.300 conflicting reports

00:16:08.200 about the father.

00:16:09.520 Some people say

00:16:10.200 that he was in Australia

00:16:11.120 on a tourist visa.

00:16:12.200 Some people say

00:16:13.000 that, no,

00:16:14.320 he was living there

00:16:15.260 and had a permit

00:16:16.100 for the guns

00:16:17.440 that were used.

00:16:18.200 I tend to believe

00:16:19.080 the latter case.

00:16:21.100 But the son

00:16:22.120 was born in Australia.

00:16:24.700 The son was born

00:16:25.820 in Australia

00:16:26.500 and grew up there.

00:16:28.500 And apparently,

00:16:30.620 according to his mother,

00:16:31.480 he was a good boy.

00:16:33.960 I don't know

00:16:34.860 what it takes

00:16:35.620 to decide

00:16:36.740 that he wasn't,

00:16:38.000 but it must take

00:16:39.220 something, I suppose.

00:16:40.740 And here's a video

00:16:41.820 of him participating

00:16:43.140 in one of the

00:16:44.800 Gas the Jews rallies.

00:16:47.680 So he was,

00:16:48.400 he seems to have

00:16:49.060 been attending

00:16:49.640 these kinds of events.

00:16:51.500 Still makes him

00:16:52.280 a good boy,

00:16:53.220 according to his mother.

00:16:55.460 And the striking thing

00:16:56.180 about that image

00:16:56.940 is that,

00:16:58.340 okay, there's that one guy

00:16:59.820 there charting

00:17:00.500 Gas the Jews,

00:17:01.220 but there are hundreds

00:17:01.860 either side of him.

00:17:03.100 Yes.

00:17:03.580 So how big

00:17:04.840 is this potential problem?

00:17:06.700 Well, I would say

00:17:08.140 that it's absolutely huge.

00:17:09.420 And I would say

00:17:10.180 that

00:17:10.580 it goes

00:17:12.940 quite deeply

00:17:15.280 into the

00:17:16.740 way the Muslim community

00:17:18.480 thinks

00:17:19.120 about

00:17:20.460 Jewish people.

00:17:22.380 And I would say

00:17:23.160 that there is no point

00:17:24.120 in

00:17:24.560 pretending to hide that.

00:17:26.800 And I would say

00:17:27.780 that it isn't just

00:17:28.800 about Jewish people

00:17:29.820 because

00:17:30.340 Paris had to cancel

00:17:31.900 its New Year celebrations

00:17:32.960 and

00:17:34.200 Germany

00:17:35.240 almost had

00:17:36.240 another Christmas market attack.

00:17:38.520 So

00:17:38.780 clearly

00:17:39.340 there's a

00:17:40.180 there is

00:17:41.100 this sort of

00:17:41.600 broad targeting.

00:17:44.400 Interesting detail here.

00:17:46.840 The Australian

00:17:47.500 Intelligence Services

00:17:48.540 knew

00:17:49.240 that the shooter

00:17:50.960 Naveed Akram,

00:17:52.000 one of the two shooters,

00:17:53.540 was involved

00:17:54.640 with Islamic State.

00:17:56.880 And they had

00:17:57.940 looked into him

00:17:58.780 in 2019.

00:17:59.700 and he was still

00:18:02.580 allowed to

00:18:03.380 be on the streets.

00:18:04.620 He was still

00:18:05.060 allowed to

00:18:05.760 go around

00:18:06.680 attend

00:18:07.360 protests

00:18:09.160 against

00:18:10.440 Israel

00:18:13.120 and Jewish people

00:18:13.860 generally

00:18:14.320 because, you know,

00:18:16.160 like,

00:18:16.560 you could protest

00:18:17.140 against Israel,

00:18:18.040 fair enough.

00:18:18.900 I don't think

00:18:19.660 gas the Jews

00:18:20.180 is against Israel

00:18:20.920 in particular,

00:18:21.620 though.

00:18:22.360 I think it's against...

00:18:23.200 It does sound a bit broader.

00:18:24.220 It sounds a little bit

00:18:25.040 broader, right?

00:18:25.640 And then we get

00:18:27.580 the regular feed

00:18:30.000 of people saying,

00:18:31.140 well, it's not

00:18:31.660 about Islam,

00:18:32.600 it's not about this,

00:18:33.300 it's not about that.

00:18:34.380 Here is this guy

00:18:35.600 receiving

00:18:36.700 a certificate

00:18:38.160 in

00:18:39.600 mastering

00:18:41.020 the memorization

00:18:42.740 and recitation

00:18:43.640 of the Quran.

00:18:45.340 Tajweed

00:18:45.820 is how

00:18:46.740 you read

00:18:47.520 the Quran

00:18:48.020 with a proper

00:18:48.820 pronunciation

00:18:49.380 to make sure

00:18:51.100 that each

00:18:51.840 vowel

00:18:52.260 and each

00:18:53.060 consonant

00:18:53.660 are pronounced

00:18:55.100 properly

00:18:55.700 when

00:18:56.920 you pray.

00:18:59.020 And the

00:18:59.680 library here

00:19:00.860 is quite

00:19:01.420 impressive.

00:19:03.140 This is a very,

00:19:04.840 I would argue,

00:19:06.260 mainstream

00:19:06.820 Muslim library.

00:19:08.600 The texts

00:19:09.340 that you see

00:19:10.140 in it

00:19:10.460 are from

00:19:11.100 Zahabi

00:19:11.540 who wrote

00:19:12.300 a huge history

00:19:13.280 about

00:19:14.380 pretty much

00:19:16.020 everybody

00:19:16.380 who is important

00:19:17.020 in Islam.

00:19:17.600 You see

00:19:18.820 Kitab al-Furu'

00:19:19.840 which is

00:19:20.500 a book

00:19:21.100 around

00:19:21.900 Hanbali,

00:19:24.060 like it's a

00:19:24.760 school of Islam,

00:19:25.700 it's a mainstream

00:19:26.060 school of Islam,

00:19:26.900 it's practiced

00:19:27.300 in Saudi

00:19:28.920 and the Gulf

00:19:29.500 and in other

00:19:29.940 parts of the world

00:19:30.660 about Hanbali Islam

00:19:32.620 and the kinds

00:19:33.220 of questions

00:19:33.660 that you should

00:19:34.080 be asking.

00:19:35.220 There is a

00:19:35.740 Wahhabi element.

00:19:37.000 You see

00:19:37.340 the books

00:19:37.800 of the

00:19:38.600 Mufti

00:19:39.580 of Saudi Arabia

00:19:40.960 Ibn Baz

00:19:42.820 and another

00:19:43.860 very important

00:19:45.300 Saudi Mufti

00:19:46.200 Ibn Uthaymin

00:19:47.120 who I

00:19:48.580 believe

00:19:49.720 had been

00:19:51.220 awarded

00:19:51.940 by the

00:19:54.020 Saudi

00:19:54.820 government

00:19:55.440 some kind

00:19:57.600 of medal

00:19:58.200 for his

00:19:59.300 role in

00:19:59.920 protection

00:20:00.300 of Islam.

00:20:01.560 So this

00:20:02.440 isn't

00:20:02.760 sort of

00:20:03.160 tangential

00:20:04.040 interpretation

00:20:06.560 of Islam.

00:20:07.580 This is

00:20:08.080 mainstream,

00:20:09.120 practiced

00:20:09.440 by Saudi

00:20:10.120 Arabia

00:20:10.500 until MBS

00:20:11.400 came around

00:20:12.420 and it

00:20:14.040 is endorsed

00:20:14.640 very widely

00:20:15.740 in many

00:20:16.900 parts of

00:20:17.360 the Muslim

00:20:17.700 world and

00:20:18.360 in any

00:20:18.860 case he

00:20:19.980 wasn't just

00:20:20.600 studying the

00:20:21.340 Hanbali

00:20:21.820 school from

00:20:22.940 which the

00:20:23.680 Wahhabis

00:20:24.260 come,

00:20:25.060 he was also

00:20:26.060 studying the

00:20:26.840 Shafi'i

00:20:27.340 school which

00:20:28.680 is the

00:20:30.260 second

00:20:30.740 mainstream

00:20:31.880 school of

00:20:32.400 Islam.

00:20:32.800 There's

00:20:33.000 four schools

00:20:34.040 of Sunni

00:20:34.460 Islam.

00:20:35.820 This center

00:20:36.520 was teaching

00:20:37.200 at least two

00:20:37.980 of them

00:20:38.320 that I

00:20:38.720 could see

00:20:39.160 as well

00:20:40.160 as mainstream

00:20:40.860 things like

00:20:41.700 the Hadith,

00:20:42.400 what Muhammad

00:20:42.840 is supposed

00:20:43.240 to have said

00:20:43.760 during his

00:20:44.220 life and

00:20:45.440 memorization

00:20:46.220 of the

00:20:46.540 Quran and

00:20:47.020 so on and

00:20:47.360 so forth.

00:20:48.340 So for

00:20:48.840 all of

00:20:49.100 these people

00:20:49.540 who say

00:20:50.240 well this

00:20:51.200 isn't true

00:20:51.600 Islam,

00:20:52.100 he doesn't

00:20:52.360 know anything

00:20:52.700 about Islam,

00:20:53.300 no, no,

00:20:53.560 no.

00:20:54.340 This guy

00:20:54.800 took the

00:20:55.260 time to

00:20:55.860 properly

00:20:56.220 study the

00:20:56.900 faith and

00:20:57.940 to properly

00:20:58.460 research it

00:20:59.280 and learn

00:20:59.900 about it and

00:21:01.140 came to the

00:21:01.780 conclusion that

00:21:02.580 what he should

00:21:03.180 be doing

00:21:03.600 with his

00:21:04.040 time is

00:21:05.740 go with

00:21:06.320 his father

00:21:06.920 and

00:21:07.900 try to

00:21:08.360 kill as

00:21:09.120 many Jews

00:21:09.600 as possible

00:21:10.200 while they

00:21:11.660 were unarmed

00:21:12.460 who were

00:21:13.320 civilians on

00:21:14.780 Bondi Beach.

00:21:16.280 This is what

00:21:17.260 his studies

00:21:17.840 led him to

00:21:18.300 conclude.

00:21:19.080 Well I mean

00:21:19.300 there's a lot

00:21:19.900 of liberal

00:21:20.940 naivety when

00:21:21.660 it comes to

00:21:22.140 Islam.

00:21:22.660 I mean the

00:21:23.380 story of

00:21:23.780 Islam,

00:21:24.180 just to break

00:21:24.780 it down

00:21:24.980 extremely quickly

00:21:26.100 and I'm

00:21:26.480 sure you

00:21:26.700 could do

00:21:26.860 this much

00:21:27.120 better than

00:21:27.360 I could

00:21:27.660 but Muhammad

00:21:29.360 got to

00:21:30.040 about the

00:21:30.360 age of

00:21:30.620 40,

00:21:31.000 he hadn't

00:21:31.160 achieved

00:21:31.500 much apart

00:21:31.980 from being

00:21:32.300 a security

00:21:32.780 guard

00:21:33.100 or a

00:21:33.320 caravan,

00:21:34.320 a row

00:21:35.280 of camels

00:21:35.820 not a

00:21:36.220 modern

00:21:37.100 caravan.

00:21:37.900 And

00:21:38.400 basically he

00:21:40.860 was looking

00:21:41.240 at these

00:21:41.720 monolithic

00:21:42.360 single god

00:21:44.400 religions,

00:21:45.520 Judaism and

00:21:46.260 Christianity and

00:21:47.160 at the time the

00:21:47.820 Arabs had a

00:21:48.560 whole pantheon and

00:21:50.040 his father

00:21:50.520 happened to

00:21:51.040 worship one

00:21:51.580 that was

00:21:51.860 called

00:21:52.280 Allah and

00:21:53.340 he thought

00:21:53.560 okay well I'm

00:21:54.000 going to turn

00:21:54.280 this guy into

00:21:54.940 a single god.

00:21:56.400 And for the

00:21:56.680 first 10 years

00:21:57.360 in Mecca it

00:21:59.180 was a religion

00:22:00.060 of peace because

00:22:00.660 it was based

00:22:01.160 largely on

00:22:01.760 Christianity.

00:22:02.300 first 13

00:22:02.920 years.

00:22:03.400 And it

00:22:03.860 didn't go

00:22:04.260 anywhere.

00:22:04.840 I mean he

00:22:05.000 had about

00:22:05.260 40 followers

00:22:05.940 didn't really

00:22:06.780 do much.

00:22:07.260 Then he

00:22:07.440 moved to

00:22:07.700 Medina and

00:22:08.240 he turned

00:22:08.540 it into

00:22:08.940 basically a

00:22:09.860 warlord business

00:22:10.540 model which

00:22:11.080 is you can

00:22:12.340 do anything to

00:22:13.460 anybody who

00:22:14.160 isn't a

00:22:14.600 Muslim but

00:22:15.200 don't do it to

00:22:15.680 anyone who

00:22:16.000 is a Muslim.

00:22:16.640 So essentially

00:22:17.400 it became a

00:22:18.060 protection gang

00:22:18.760 and 10% gets

00:22:19.520 thrown up to

00:22:20.000 the big guy

00:22:20.460 which was him.

00:22:22.000 And that was

00:22:22.400 an enormously

00:22:23.020 successful business

00:22:24.600 model and

00:22:25.320 his story is

00:22:27.140 actually quite

00:22:27.540 epic.

00:22:27.800 It's of the

00:22:28.940 scale of

00:22:29.280 Alexander the

00:22:30.020 Great in

00:22:30.880 terms of the

00:22:31.380 scale of the

00:22:32.040 expansion he

00:22:32.580 was able to

00:22:33.060 achieve.

00:22:33.820 But I mean it

00:22:34.280 absolutely is a

00:22:35.360 religion of

00:22:35.980 conquest and

00:22:36.700 liberal white

00:22:38.220 leaders don't

00:22:39.680 seem to

00:22:40.040 understand this.

00:22:40.760 They seem to

00:22:41.080 think that it's

00:22:41.480 just Christianity

00:22:43.480 with falafas

00:22:45.640 attached.

00:22:47.320 They don't want

00:22:47.880 to admit it.

00:22:48.500 They don't want

00:22:48.840 to see it.

00:22:49.860 They don't want

00:22:50.340 to think about

00:22:50.920 it.

00:22:51.280 They don't want

00:22:52.260 to let reality

00:22:54.040 bother them in

00:22:57.160 any shape

00:22:57.840 or form.

00:22:59.180 They're not

00:22:59.800 interested in

00:23:00.340 reality.

00:23:00.960 They're not

00:23:01.220 interested in

00:23:01.640 the truth.

00:23:03.180 And this is the

00:23:04.040 fundamental problem.

00:23:05.300 The fact that the

00:23:06.000 leadership is not

00:23:06.820 interested in the

00:23:07.480 truth.

00:23:07.680 The other thing I

00:23:08.060 would note is

00:23:09.120 with this coming

00:23:09.760 just after the

00:23:10.940 conversation about

00:23:11.640 Nick Fluentz

00:23:12.340 and the emergence

00:23:13.960 of young men

00:23:15.320 pushing back

00:23:15.880 against the

00:23:16.700 established order

00:23:18.060 I'm almost

00:23:20.180 certain that's

00:23:20.620 going to get

00:23:20.920 folded into this.

00:23:22.120 So the response

00:23:22.860 is not going to

00:23:23.420 be something like

00:23:24.000 okay look at

00:23:24.660 these extremes

00:23:26.780 Muslims within

00:23:27.460 our population

00:23:28.100 maybe to

00:23:29.720 preserve the

00:23:30.540 frame of

00:23:31.020 liberalism we

00:23:32.180 need to do

00:23:32.660 what Middle

00:23:33.600 Eastern country

00:23:34.280 security services

00:23:35.140 have been telling

00:23:35.560 us to do for

00:23:36.060 decades which

00:23:36.780 is to

00:23:37.440 distinguish and

00:23:40.100 crack down on

00:23:40.840 them.

00:23:41.640 The population

00:23:43.040 as a whole are

00:23:44.260 accepting that

00:23:45.540 Islam as a

00:23:47.240 whole is one

00:23:48.700 thing and so

00:23:49.340 they're saying

00:23:49.700 okay just

00:23:50.140 deport all of

00:23:51.160 them.

00:23:51.620 They're going

00:23:52.100 with the

00:23:52.340 government's

00:23:52.640 framework.

00:23:53.200 So that's

00:23:53.560 probably where

00:23:54.140 we're going to

00:23:54.600 end up since

00:23:55.180 the government

00:23:55.540 won't draw any

00:23:56.500 sort of

00:23:56.760 distinction.

00:23:57.520 But coming

00:23:58.760 straight after

00:23:59.500 the Nick

00:23:59.840 Florentis

00:24:00.200 discussion almost

00:24:01.480 certainly this

00:24:02.060 will be pivoted

00:24:02.760 into an attack

00:24:04.820 on anti-Semitism

00:24:05.920 generally meaning

00:24:08.620 more censorship of

00:24:10.660 young men on

00:24:12.260 the right which

00:24:13.520 will again

00:24:14.000 compound the

00:24:15.000 whole Nick

00:24:15.400 Florentis thing

00:24:16.200 because they're

00:24:16.740 just going to

00:24:17.020 feel well you're

00:24:18.060 shitting on me

00:24:18.500 even harder than

00:24:19.320 you were before

00:24:19.840 because of

00:24:20.940 something that a

00:24:21.500 Muslim guy did.

00:24:22.760 Can I make a

00:24:23.740 point on agency?

00:24:24.460 I often feel

00:24:26.020 conflicted with

00:24:26.560 these topics.

00:24:27.100 I mean I'm a

00:24:28.100 Jew, I'm

00:24:28.840 married to a

00:24:29.280 Muslim, we're

00:24:30.400 trying to build

00:24:30.720 our own two

00:24:31.240 state solution

00:24:31.840 in our four

00:24:32.720 walls but

00:24:33.980 nonetheless I

00:24:35.240 feel it important

00:24:35.980 these days to

00:24:37.100 maintain a sense

00:24:38.220 of human agency

00:24:39.000 and that's why I

00:24:40.900 don't seek myself

00:24:41.800 to blame the

00:24:43.420 religion in the

00:24:44.320 same way that if

00:24:44.700 somebody carries

00:24:45.200 out a stabbing I

00:24:45.780 don't blame the

00:24:46.240 knife.

00:24:47.400 I feel that we

00:24:48.040 live in a world in

00:24:48.800 which people have

00:24:49.280 got every excuse

00:24:50.120 and justification

00:24:50.780 sometimes we

00:24:51.640 almost project

00:24:52.220 this onto them

00:24:52.960 while they were

00:24:53.840 just a religious

00:24:54.340 fanatic or they

00:24:55.160 were just mentally

00:24:55.740 unwell and I

00:24:56.680 feel that that

00:24:57.060 detracts from this

00:24:57.840 notion of human

00:24:58.460 agency which is

00:25:00.680 why I don't seek

00:25:01.320 to blame Islam

00:25:02.600 for this, I

00:25:03.740 blame the

00:25:04.140 individuals, the

00:25:05.820 interpretation and

00:25:06.700 their actions.

00:25:07.840 That said there is

00:25:08.720 a consistent pattern

00:25:09.860 with people who

00:25:10.980 perform these

00:25:11.500 terrorist attacks

00:25:12.420 and we've already

00:25:13.240 seen it already in

00:25:14.040 some of the links

00:25:14.680 that we've had

00:25:15.160 is that leading up

00:25:17.060 to the attack in

00:25:18.060 the years before

00:25:18.700 that they become

00:25:19.480 increasingly

00:25:19.980 devout.

00:25:20.780 They look deeper

00:25:22.000 and deeper into

00:25:22.620 religion.

00:25:24.160 The Muslims I

00:25:25.020 know who wouldn't

00:25:25.960 do anything like

00:25:26.840 this actually know

00:25:28.040 almost nothing about

00:25:28.960 the faith.

00:25:30.020 They might have

00:25:30.480 gone, even the

00:25:31.300 people who grew up

00:25:31.900 in Islamic

00:25:32.260 countries, when

00:25:33.440 they were being

00:25:33.900 taught the Quran

00:25:34.680 they were taught

00:25:35.360 it in ancient

00:25:36.800 Arabic and they

00:25:37.440 didn't have a

00:25:37.780 bloody clue what

00:25:38.480 it was because

00:25:38.960 they're from, I

00:25:39.520 don't know,

00:25:39.760 Indonesia or Turkey

00:25:40.800 or whatever it

00:25:41.800 was but they

00:25:42.400 don't actually know

00:25:44.360 that much about

00:25:44.900 the religion and

00:25:45.520 consistently people

00:25:46.500 who go deeper

00:25:47.140 into what it's

00:25:47.700 actually about,

00:25:49.440 they're the ones

00:25:49.960 that you have a

00:25:50.300 problem with.

00:25:50.780 True, although

00:25:53.080 it's a kind of

00:25:53.500 chicken and egg

00:25:54.020 scenario and I'd

00:25:55.060 question whether

00:25:55.560 actually it's people

00:25:56.340 with murderous

00:25:57.000 intent and evil

00:25:58.060 in their hearts

00:25:58.620 are kind of

00:25:58.920 seeking out a

00:25:59.840 form of

00:26:00.140 moralization or

00:26:00.980 justification.

00:26:02.000 It's whether the

00:26:02.460 religion has turned

00:26:03.120 them this way or

00:26:03.660 actually they've

00:26:04.160 sought the

00:26:04.480 religions away to

00:26:05.340 kind of allow

00:26:05.960 them.

00:26:06.280 I think ideology

00:26:07.320 really matters.

00:26:08.420 I think ideology is

00:26:10.580 really important and

00:26:12.340 I'm not inclined to

00:26:13.500 dismiss it in any

00:26:14.300 way.

00:26:17.440 We all have

00:26:18.680 potential for

00:26:19.300 violence, we all

00:26:20.600 have potential for

00:26:21.400 evil, we all have

00:26:22.880 potential for good,

00:26:24.720 absolutely granted.

00:26:25.520 I think defining good

00:26:28.500 and evil comes from a

00:26:30.240 moral framework that

00:26:31.240 you adopt and to

00:26:34.140 the extent that you

00:26:35.240 adopt a moral

00:26:36.100 framework that says

00:26:37.260 jihad is a

00:26:38.620 legitimate way of

00:26:39.800 pursuing your

00:26:40.360 political interests

00:26:41.240 and that it doesn't

00:26:42.820 require leadership

00:26:43.820 and that any

00:26:45.600 Muslim can be a

00:26:47.040 mujahid and that

00:26:48.700 very often is

00:26:49.860 obligated to be a

00:26:51.100 mujahid, that leads

00:26:53.280 to precisely what

00:26:54.800 you see here.

00:26:55.740 The way Islam

00:26:56.740 works is quite

00:26:57.600 unusual.

00:26:58.900 It is not a

00:26:59.440 philosophical religion.

00:27:01.580 Judaism has very

00:27:03.460 lengthy texts

00:27:04.440 debating pretty much

00:27:06.220 everything all the

00:27:07.500 time.

00:27:09.040 Christianity built

00:27:10.520 philosophy as we

00:27:11.680 know it today on

00:27:13.400 the bedrock that

00:27:14.540 was Greek

00:27:15.300 philosophy with the

00:27:17.800 incarnation of Jesus

00:27:19.040 Christ playing a

00:27:19.920 huge role in the

00:27:21.560 development of that

00:27:22.700 philosophy.

00:27:23.280 towards a more

00:27:24.200 moral and positive

00:27:25.180 framework.

00:27:26.720 Islam broke with

00:27:27.680 philosophy in around

00:27:28.900 1100 AD, actually

00:27:30.740 900 AD, and that

00:27:34.080 was because it

00:27:35.900 found that philosophy

00:27:37.400 so conflicted with

00:27:38.560 the scripture that it

00:27:40.660 was untenable to

00:27:43.120 pursue it.

00:27:44.720 And so you had an

00:27:45.640 earlier period where

00:27:46.700 Islam was

00:27:47.320 philosophical, the

00:27:48.820 philosophical side

00:27:49.780 lost and was

00:27:51.060 declared to be

00:27:51.740 apostates

00:27:52.420 retrospectively, and

00:27:55.120 then Islam

00:27:55.740 developed in this

00:27:56.560 particular way.

00:27:58.340 So I'm not of the

00:27:59.080 view that I am, I

00:28:00.600 do believe that we

00:28:01.560 all have good and

00:28:02.260 evil within us, I

00:28:03.420 accept that, I

00:28:05.900 don't accept that

00:28:07.700 the ideology doesn't

00:28:09.020 matter, it really,

00:28:10.700 really does.

00:28:11.240 and it permits the

00:28:14.660 exercise of morality

00:28:16.560 and immorality in a

00:28:18.820 particular way where

00:28:21.000 we see the pattern

00:28:21.820 consistently repeating.

00:28:24.160 And this is very true

00:28:25.600 of Islam, which has

00:28:26.520 been lost since the

00:28:27.820 caliphate ended, and

00:28:30.060 their reaction to the

00:28:31.340 ending of the caliphate

00:28:32.260 was all of these

00:28:33.480 various groups trying to

00:28:34.760 establish their own

00:28:35.480 mini-caliphates by

00:28:37.920 warfare, because

00:28:39.740 Muhammad established

00:28:40.880 his state with

00:28:43.600 warfare.

00:28:45.620 And if you're a

00:28:46.320 founder, I mean,

00:28:47.280 the litany of Jewish

00:28:49.540 prophets is incredibly

00:28:50.980 long, and we share

00:28:52.020 them in the Jewish and

00:28:52.720 Christian tradition, but

00:28:54.480 Muhammad is different

00:28:55.560 because, firstly, he

00:28:57.460 dehumanizes the Jewish

00:28:59.960 prophets, because when

00:29:01.640 the Quran repeats their

00:29:02.600 stories, it doesn't in

00:29:03.720 any way mention how

00:29:06.240 morally conflicted they

00:29:07.440 could be about certain

00:29:08.900 things, say, King

00:29:10.300 David and the mother

00:29:14.440 of Solomon, say, Solomon

00:29:16.520 and the pagan gods,

00:29:18.460 et cetera, et cetera,

00:29:19.760 whereas Islam sort of

00:29:20.780 presents them as people

00:29:21.720 who said the true thing,

00:29:22.760 the right thing once,

00:29:24.220 their people didn't

00:29:24.820 obey them, now it's war

00:29:26.540 and anger from God.

00:29:28.140 So it's a fundamentally

00:29:29.540 different belief system.

00:29:31.140 Islam, so I wouldn't in

00:29:34.340 any way dismiss the faith

00:29:35.520 or the ideology or not

00:29:36.780 hold it responsible, at

00:29:38.300 least in part.

00:29:39.280 Islam is a religion of

00:29:40.400 government, and it seeks

00:29:41.420 to govern, because it

00:29:43.140 believes that Jews and

00:29:44.160 Muslims have been led

00:29:44.980 astray and are completely

00:29:46.500 on the wrong path.

00:29:47.800 So the opening chapter of

00:29:49.800 the Quran ends with,

00:29:52.220 don't put us on the path of

00:29:54.140 those with whom you are

00:29:55.020 angry, the Jews, that's the

00:29:57.720 interpretation of it, and

00:29:59.100 those who have been led

00:29:59.900 astray, which is the

00:30:01.340 Christians, and it

00:30:04.340 believes that they're the

00:30:05.160 only ones on the

00:30:05.860 righteous path, and that

00:30:07.220 they should govern these

00:30:09.180 other communities, because

00:30:11.140 they don't obey the law of

00:30:13.140 God.

00:30:13.880 So I wouldn't for a second

00:30:15.480 exonerate the belief system

00:30:18.060 in the same way that I

00:30:20.000 wouldn't exonerate

00:30:20.920 communism for its

00:30:22.960 dehumanization of people.

00:30:23.380 But the thing I would put

00:30:24.520 out to you is that the

00:30:25.640 Western response to this is

00:30:27.220 almost the worst possible

00:30:28.580 response, because one

00:30:29.860 would be to say, to do

00:30:32.440 what the, you know, the

00:30:35.080 Islamic governments have

00:30:37.000 been urging Western

00:30:37.960 governments to do for

00:30:38.720 decades now, which is to

00:30:39.800 get serious about

00:30:40.660 extremists.

00:30:41.380 To get extremely

00:30:42.080 draconian to the

00:30:43.140 extent that...

00:30:43.240 Extremely draconian about

00:30:44.460 the extremists.

00:30:45.180 But they don't do that

00:30:46.000 because they don't really

00:30:46.920 understand Islam, and so

00:30:47.980 they just kind of lump them

00:30:49.140 all in together and

00:30:50.600 refuse to draw any sort of

00:30:51.760 distinctions, which, like I

00:30:53.540 say, then leads to the

00:30:54.460 Western public saying,

00:30:55.280 okay, fine, well, we just

00:30:56.740 need to get rid of all of

00:30:57.580 them.

00:30:57.660 And you can absolutely

00:30:58.180 understand why they've

00:30:59.420 come to that view.

00:31:00.560 And I can't say I

00:31:01.620 particularly disagree that

00:31:02.580 Islam is just incompatible

00:31:04.120 with the West.

00:31:04.720 Yep.

00:31:05.520 But instead, they have

00:31:06.700 chosen the worst possible

00:31:07.780 outcome, which is basically

00:31:09.200 just to make the

00:31:10.620 indigenous populations as

00:31:11.960 angry as possible by

00:31:12.980 suppressing them every time

00:31:14.120 there's something like this

00:31:15.520 that happens, while

00:31:16.680 refusing to draw any

00:31:17.640 distinctions on the

00:31:18.840 Islamic side.

00:31:19.880 And, you know, and it

00:31:20.880 leads to crazy situations

00:31:22.040 like not letting Carl into

00:31:23.440 Australia, but they do

00:31:25.060 let in, you know, guys

00:31:26.840 like you did this.

00:31:27.920 Yeah.

00:31:29.080 The Naveed Akram family.

00:31:31.040 There was a hero during

00:31:32.840 the shooting, and

00:31:34.580 apparently his name is

00:31:35.640 Ahmad al-Ahmad, originally

00:31:37.380 Syrian, who actually

00:31:39.560 disarmed one of the

00:31:40.540 attackers, but then the

00:31:41.540 attacker moved on and

00:31:42.500 found another gun, it

00:31:43.900 seems.

00:31:44.620 I'm very confused by this

00:31:45.760 because I've had three or

00:31:47.140 four different versions of

00:31:49.220 what happened here.

00:31:50.240 Netanyahu said that he

00:31:51.360 was Jewish.

00:31:51.900 There were reports

00:31:53.180 online that he was

00:31:54.080 Australian, and that he

00:31:55.360 was Maronite Christian,

00:31:56.740 and it seems, I think,

00:31:59.080 that he was actually a

00:31:59.840 Syrian Muslim.

00:32:01.200 Okay.

00:32:01.880 But I'm not 100% sure

00:32:03.680 this was being reported,

00:32:06.140 take it with a grain of

00:32:06.940 salt.

00:32:07.520 But he did disarm one of

00:32:08.880 the attackers, and this

00:32:10.500 was the attacker who

00:32:11.340 survived.

00:32:12.640 And now I want to move

00:32:13.480 on to the victim, because

00:32:15.120 I think they knew who the

00:32:17.440 target was.

00:32:19.200 This is one of the

00:32:20.100 rabbis who was killed,

00:32:21.900 Eli Schlanger, he was

00:32:25.320 raising money for the

00:32:27.840 IDF and for Israel to

00:32:30.480 build more settlements in

00:32:31.800 the West Bank.

00:32:32.880 He was there during the

00:32:35.520 Gaza war supporting the

00:32:37.320 Israeli military.

00:32:40.020 He had, you know, he was

00:32:42.340 a part of Chabad, which I

00:32:44.040 would describe as a

00:32:45.540 supremacist movement, to put

00:32:48.540 it mildly, and he was

00:32:50.640 celebrated on Israeli

00:32:51.760 television for raising

00:32:54.340 funds from places like

00:32:55.700 Florida and Sydney and

00:32:57.580 others in order to

00:32:59.420 transfer these funds to

00:33:00.460 Israel.

00:33:01.000 So he was a very high

00:33:02.300 profile individual.

00:33:03.360 He was a very high

00:33:04.040 profile individual within

00:33:05.380 the other circles.

00:33:06.280 Yeah.

00:33:06.480 But if you're on the

00:33:07.000 other side of this

00:33:08.480 conflict, you'd probably be

00:33:10.660 aware of him.

00:33:11.700 Yes.

00:33:12.140 Right.

00:33:12.660 Then he is the enemy.

00:33:14.540 And so I don't think it was a

00:33:17.200 coincidence that Chabad in

00:33:19.380 particular was targeted.

00:33:21.020 And I don't think it was a

00:33:22.700 coincidence that this man was

00:33:24.840 there.

00:33:25.200 This was a premeditated planned

00:33:28.700 attack, researched attack, where

00:33:31.380 they identified people within

00:33:33.200 the Jewish community that they

00:33:34.520 viewed as enemies.

00:33:36.220 And essentially, it's the

00:33:39.020 transposition of the Middle East

00:33:41.420 conflict onto Bondi Beach.

00:33:44.380 That's very much what is

00:33:46.600 happening there.

00:33:48.400 So this was the organization that

00:33:51.720 was targeted.

00:33:53.080 But the people who were shot

00:33:54.340 included a 10-year-old girl and

00:33:56.280 an 87-year-old woman and

00:33:58.160 various other unarmed

00:33:59.300 civilians.

00:34:00.660 And the ideology of the

00:34:02.940 attackers made them believe

00:34:05.320 that shooting these unarmed

00:34:07.560 civilians while they were

00:34:09.280 celebrating on a beach in a

00:34:11.760 land far away was their

00:34:13.840 ticket to heaven.

00:34:15.100 And it led them to believe that

00:34:17.120 if they had died at the hands

00:34:18.880 of the Australian police or in a

00:34:21.020 subsequent suicide bombing, as

00:34:22.840 indicated by the

00:34:23.880 explosives that they had in their

00:34:25.780 vehicle, that would have led them

00:34:27.740 into heaven.

00:34:29.240 And these beliefs and these

00:34:32.860 identities and this conflict should

00:34:34.640 be looked at as a whole because

00:34:37.600 what's happening is the

00:34:39.420 transposition of the Israeli-Palestinian

00:34:40.700 conflict to a global scale.

00:34:45.920 And I don't think it's a good idea.

00:34:47.640 I don't think it's a particularly good

00:34:49.460 thing.

00:34:51.460 Now what happened right

00:34:53.580 afterwards was that the

00:34:57.020 left-wing University of Sydney

00:34:59.200 Students' Representative Council

00:35:00.920 issued a statement sort of

00:35:04.180 celebrating this attack.

00:35:05.980 Yeah.

00:35:06.540 And saying this is due to racism

00:35:11.500 and to race riots, obviously by

00:35:14.760 white people.

00:35:15.940 They've only got one lens, so of

00:35:17.520 course they really do.

00:35:19.060 Anything aliens could land and they

00:35:20.540 would see it through that thing.

00:35:21.740 I mean, I've been thinking about,

00:35:22.880 you know, how do I define leftism?

00:35:25.160 And I think the best that I can come

00:35:26.860 up with is that it's sort of anti-morality,

00:35:29.000 anti-truth, anti-civilization.

00:35:30.780 And by civilization, I guess I'm

00:35:33.240 talking about order.

00:35:35.040 They are opposed to all of those

00:35:36.660 things.

00:35:37.420 And if you look at Islam,

00:35:39.660 they're actually not against those

00:35:42.180 things.

00:35:42.720 They are for their own version of

00:35:45.160 those things.

00:35:46.100 Their own morality, their own truth,

00:35:48.680 their own civilization.

00:35:49.800 Let me just finish the thought.

00:35:51.760 And so you can understand why the

00:35:54.080 left and Islam in the early stages

00:35:57.300 of this are natural allies because,

00:35:59.140 you know, the left are anti-

00:36:00.720 civilization.

00:36:01.580 Well, the Islam is anti-this

00:36:03.360 civilization.

00:36:04.520 The left is anti-morality.

00:36:06.040 Well, they're anti-this morality.

00:36:07.860 Yes.

00:36:08.040 And so you can see why they're

00:36:09.260 fellow travelers up to a point.

00:36:11.600 Yes.

00:36:11.760 And that point being the successful

00:36:13.780 completion of the revolution, as we

00:36:15.620 saw in 1979 in Iran.

00:36:17.800 And two minutes after the revolution

00:36:19.560 is complete, the leftists get put up

00:36:21.160 against the wall and shot in the

00:36:22.060 back of their head because they are

00:36:23.600 now the obstacle to proceeding to

00:36:26.120 the next stage of, OK, now we're

00:36:27.680 going to put all of these things

00:36:28.840 back, but we're going to do it

00:36:30.460 do it our way.

00:36:31.420 Yep.

00:36:31.920 And I would lump, you know,

00:36:34.180 most of the Western elite,

00:36:36.720 most of the Western leaders in that

00:36:38.220 sort of idiocy as well, because they

00:36:39.580 don't understand what is happening

00:36:40.760 here.

00:36:41.060 No.

00:36:42.120 No.

00:36:42.560 As usual, the actual victims of the

00:36:47.480 attack are the Muslims themselves.

00:36:50.320 So you have Brisbane Muslims posting

00:36:53.640 about how they should stand together

00:36:57.160 and guard against Islamophobia, because

00:37:00.860 that's really the most important thing

00:37:04.460 to consider after the attack.

00:37:05.960 phobia meaning irrational fear, of course.

00:37:09.880 Meaning irrational fear.

00:37:10.920 Yes.

00:37:12.140 I'm sure, I'm sure that Piers

00:37:15.260 Morgan was absolutely devastated by

00:37:17.160 this because, you know, the food, what

00:37:20.760 are we going to do without the food?

00:37:22.120 Incidentally, I don't think Piers

00:37:23.760 Morgan did anything else yesterday

00:37:25.480 apart from block people.

00:37:26.540 He blocked thousands of people

00:37:27.860 yesterday because they all made the

00:37:29.000 point you sold Western civilization for

00:37:30.740 a curry.

00:37:31.060 Pretty much.

00:37:32.760 You had a Labour MP saying that we

00:37:36.640 should detoxify the way we think of

00:37:39.380 people who aren't like us, because

00:37:42.160 diversity is our strength.

00:37:44.660 I don't think importing the Middle East

00:37:48.220 conflict or the India-Pakistan

00:37:49.940 conflict or other global conflicts onto

00:37:53.620 your streets and recreational spaces

00:37:56.400 strengthens you.

00:37:58.820 But that's just me being crazy, I suppose.

00:38:01.060 Can I just ask him, so you mentioned

00:38:05.180 your Jews, did you celebrate, was it

00:38:06.740 Hanukkah yesterday?

00:38:07.980 I did, in my own way.

00:38:10.660 But, look, I, as I said, I've got quite

00:38:15.000 a high tolerance for this stuff.

00:38:16.120 I grew up in Ireland.

00:38:18.220 Ireland's pretty bad for the anti-Semitism.

00:38:21.340 Swastikas and the names of the Jewish

00:38:23.300 kids in my school written on the bathroom

00:38:25.020 toilets when I was there, for example.

00:38:26.760 But, you know, but nonetheless, I still

00:38:31.080 generally believe that people should be

00:38:32.420 free to come out and say what they want

00:38:34.040 to say.

00:38:34.400 And that's why I draw a distinction

00:38:35.360 between words and actions.

00:38:37.220 But it is increasingly concerning the

00:38:40.120 way in which Jews, particularly in the

00:38:41.580 United Kingdom, are seen as a kind of a

00:38:42.720 proxy for the Israeli state.

00:38:44.160 And as soon as Israel does something that

00:38:46.100 the Western community disagrees with, then

00:38:48.540 who's getting the, you know, the call for

00:38:50.720 culling?

00:38:51.080 Well, it's the Jews in the United Kingdom.

00:38:52.620 So, you know, I'm, but going back to the

00:38:55.480 point I challenged you on earlier, I don't

00:38:59.000 want to vilify an entire religion either.

00:39:04.340 And as I said, I hear this on both sides,

00:39:06.720 from both sides of my family, and now that

00:39:08.060 I've married my wife and her family

00:39:09.220 originally from Algeria.

00:39:10.860 And, you know, I think it lacks nuance

00:39:13.880 sometimes.

00:39:15.000 I try and avoid this identity politics

00:39:16.740 full stop, to be honest, because I feel

00:39:18.240 that's what's gotten us into part of this

00:39:19.980 mess in the first place.

00:39:20.920 I try and judge people by the content of

00:39:22.740 the character and as individuals.

00:39:24.400 Now, that doesn't mean we shouldn't identify

00:39:26.160 correlation.

00:39:27.760 It doesn't mean we shouldn't look at

00:39:28.680 statistics.

00:39:29.380 I mean, clearly, we see the kind of

00:39:31.000 terrorist attacks going on around the

00:39:32.400 world.

00:39:32.780 They are caused by Islamic fundamentalists.

00:39:37.740 Yes.

00:39:37.840 We have to look at that.

00:39:40.060 But I don't think saying that it's Islam

00:39:43.280 in and of itself, because where does that

00:39:45.480 get us?

00:39:46.040 I mean, there are plenty of law-abiding,

00:39:47.400 non-hateful Muslim people in the United

00:39:50.960 Kingdom.

00:39:52.600 I don't want them to get caught up in

00:39:54.320 this.

00:39:54.580 In the same way that I don't want Jews to

00:39:55.780 get caught up with when Israel does

00:39:57.720 something that people disagree with.

00:39:59.220 Yeah.

00:39:59.440 I mean, just on that point, just a thought

00:40:01.380 that, I mean, part of the issue there is

00:40:03.860 that people who are very pro the state of

00:40:07.100 Israel, and when I say pro the state of

00:40:10.380 Israel, I mean as in the militaristic sense,

00:40:13.220 they will also conflate the two very

00:40:14.840 readily.

00:40:15.560 So they will say, okay, well, you know,

00:40:17.740 we get to do whatever level of bombing

00:40:19.540 or whatever level of military campaign we

00:40:21.720 want.

00:40:22.400 And if you start to criticize that in any

00:40:24.160 way, they'll say, oh, you're anti-Jewish,

00:40:25.580 you're anti-Zionist, you're anti-Semitic

00:40:29.520 and all that kind of thing.

00:40:30.900 So, I mean, the problem is they conflate it

00:40:35.500 as well.

00:40:36.020 And everybody wants to sort of lump

00:40:37.860 everybody into this sort of group.

00:40:39.900 I mean, personally, I am of the mind that

00:40:43.580 I don't think I'd mind that much if every

00:40:47.380 Muslim at this point was asked, you know,

00:40:48.920 to either renounce Islam or leave.

00:40:51.180 Because I just, we seem completely unable

00:40:54.220 to solve this any other way.

00:40:55.800 And this is anti-civilizational at this

00:40:58.120 point.

00:40:59.340 We can't just continue to allow this to

00:41:01.560 happen.

00:41:02.000 Because the thing with this is, you know,

00:41:04.540 nobody could say it was shocking.

00:41:05.600 They could say it was horrific, but they

00:41:06.560 couldn't say it was shocking.

00:41:07.200 Shocking.

00:41:07.860 Because this happens consistently now.

00:41:10.620 I mean, see, I'm not going to say that

00:41:12.620 Islam is fundamentally incompatible with

00:41:16.040 British values, because I know and

00:41:18.300 encounter a lot of Muslim people, and I

00:41:20.800 see that they're fully integrated within

00:41:22.360 British society and values.

00:41:23.660 But they're probably the less dogmatic

00:41:25.380 of all of them.

00:41:28.180 Well, perhaps, but traditional in many

00:41:30.260 senses.

00:41:30.800 Now, I do think that actually when people

00:41:32.980 are coming and seeking asylum here, or

00:41:35.340 indeed just wanting to migrate for economic

00:41:36.880 reasons, that they should have to

00:41:38.200 demonstrate that they have an affinity

00:41:40.460 and a willingness to integrate with

00:41:42.240 British values and culture, right?

00:41:43.640 I think that should be fundamental to

00:41:45.040 this.

00:41:45.800 But I wouldn't go so far as to say that

00:41:48.360 being Muslim automatically precludes you

00:41:50.860 from being that way inclined.

00:41:52.620 I think values are deeply tied into religion.

00:41:58.600 And I think the idea that you can separate

00:42:00.280 values from religion is a bit of an

00:42:02.340 absurdity.

00:42:05.060 It is, this is where you get your values.

00:42:10.220 Values don't operate on a fully conscious

00:42:12.420 level.

00:42:13.560 Values are imbibed and passed down through

00:42:18.040 the generations in a process that is largely

00:42:20.280 not conscious.

00:42:22.780 And I think different groups are genuinely

00:42:24.780 different.

00:42:25.940 I believe that there are various stereotypes

00:42:28.120 about Italians that are true, as there are

00:42:30.940 stereotypes about Germans that are true, as

00:42:33.640 there are stereotypes about Islam that are

00:42:35.380 true.

00:42:36.320 And I don't particularly have a problem with

00:42:38.860 people having these different identities.

00:42:41.580 And it in no way generates personal animus.

00:42:45.180 I also think we operate fundamentally at a

00:42:49.080 group level.

00:42:50.540 I'm from Lebanon, and it is impossible to

00:42:54.340 interact across sects in Lebanon at a

00:42:57.660 communal and group level.

00:42:59.140 It's very possible on the individual level, but

00:43:02.300 at a group level, it stops.

00:43:05.020 So I suspect what you are perhaps conflating

00:43:07.840 here is the difference between individuals and

00:43:11.800 groups.

00:43:12.120 Because you can say that certain groups have

00:43:15.720 certain characteristics without saying that

00:43:18.380 every single group has that characteristic.

00:43:20.940 It is possible to say that certain ideologies

00:43:23.260 tend to lead to certain outcomes without

00:43:25.740 saying that every person who believes in that

00:43:28.500 ideology behaves in that way.

00:43:31.480 So there is a level of generalization that is

00:43:33.420 useful.

00:43:34.480 There is a level of generalization that gets

00:43:37.500 extreme, and we should avoid that.

00:43:39.600 But just because that is possible doesn't deny the

00:43:43.760 validity of generalizations in general.

00:43:48.400 I think, you know, everywhere you go, people

00:43:51.960 naturally organize around communal lines.

00:43:54.680 You see that the Irish tended to congregate in

00:43:57.180 Haraldsdon, in London, for example.

00:43:59.220 And after the Irish moved out, it was the Somalis

00:44:01.880 coming in.

00:44:02.820 You see that the Bangladeshis and the Pakistanis have

00:44:05.600 congregated in Whitechapel.

00:44:06.860 You see this natural behavior of people

00:44:09.960 affiliating themselves with people who are like

00:44:12.640 them, in the same way that in Manchester there is a

00:44:15.560 clear dividing line between the Muslim community and

00:44:18.300 the Jewish community.

00:44:19.220 And they are, you know, each of them in their own

00:44:21.660 neighborhoods.

00:44:22.560 So I accept this, that diversity behaves in a

00:44:27.680 certain way and leads to certain outcomes.

00:44:30.660 And I accept that certain beliefs do lead to certain

00:44:34.360 behaviors.

00:44:35.760 I don't, that doesn't mean that I blame every single

00:44:38.620 individual.

00:44:39.780 If I say that this ideology tends to lead to this kind of

00:44:43.520 thing, it's the same way as if I say that, you know, you

00:44:47.440 find a lot more people who misbehave sexually and who

00:44:50.960 identify as trans, for instance, without saying that every

00:44:54.900 single person who identifies as trans has committed these

00:44:58.220 particular acts.

00:44:59.040 So there is a level to which generalizations are useful.

00:45:02.580 And I think it's important to be able to discuss them

00:45:06.940 soberly and to have some space for generalizations.

00:45:10.140 James, I do wonder, I don't know how much of a, how plugged

00:45:15.220 you in, plugged in you are to sort of the wider Jewish

00:45:18.000 community and stuff.

00:45:19.320 But I mean, given that, you know, we've had this, which is

00:45:21.500 very clearly a very targeted kill as many Jews as possible

00:45:25.160 attack and not long after the Manchester synagogue attack, how

00:45:31.060 is the Jewish community feeling about the way that this kind of

00:45:35.920 gets responded to?

00:45:36.760 Because every time you get an attack like this, the response from

00:45:39.820 government is, are we going to crack down on, you know, young

00:45:43.240 right-wing white men harder?

00:45:46.620 And I mean, is there a sense it's like, okay, well, are you actually

00:45:49.860 going to do anything useful?

00:45:50.700 I mean, how, how is the community feeling about this?

00:45:53.320 I think generally what they see from our politicians are just

00:45:55.620 platitudes.

00:45:57.340 Yeah.

00:45:57.760 You know, you see that from what Starmer, et cetera, put out.

00:46:00.900 My, my, my concern is that it makes people become more insular.

00:46:04.860 It makes the Jewish community become more insular, less willing

00:46:06.820 actually to be open.

00:46:09.300 I've, I've had a bit of a 180 on this over the last year or two

00:46:11.600 because I live in North London, a lot of Jewish schools that have

00:46:14.600 got essentially kind of prison style security on the outside.

00:46:17.460 And I've been saying for a while to some of my friends whose

00:46:20.180 children go there, do you not think it's a bit overkill?

00:46:22.560 Are we not putting the fear of God into these kids that actually

00:46:24.900 there's a threat there that doesn't necessarily exist on a

00:46:27.480 day-to-day basis?

00:46:28.340 And is that doing more harm?

00:46:29.240 Yeah, but it might exist one day of the year.

00:46:31.040 No, but this is, this is the thing.

00:46:32.320 And this is why I've actually changed my tune on it.

00:46:33.880 Because when you see what's going on in Manchester, when you see

00:46:35.700 what's happened in Bondi now, how can you not have that security?

00:46:39.100 Yeah.

00:46:39.520 That, so I, I, it's, it, but it's such a shame because it creates

00:46:43.580 that divide even more from the outside in and the inside out.

00:46:47.460 It doesn't create a divide.

00:46:49.300 It affirms that a divide is there.

00:46:52.320 In, in, in the sense that if you look at what the Quran says about

00:46:56.320 Jews, you should be very concerned.

00:46:59.880 Oh, it's quite explicit.

00:47:00.600 You should be very concerned.

00:47:04.640 Jews are described as the worst enemies of Muslims and of Islam.

00:47:08.020 They're described as deceitful, dishonest, da-da-da-da-da.

00:47:10.820 There is a whole litany of things that are well-established as being part of

00:47:17.260 the Hadith and as being part of the Quran that are explicitly targeted

00:47:20.880 against the Jews.

00:47:21.680 There is also very explicit targeting of the Christians, but the Christians

00:47:25.720 are viewed more favorably than Jews by Muslims.

00:47:28.240 So, I, I, I think, I, I, I think reality doesn't meet your prior assumptions.

00:47:41.100 I, I think you're coming at this from a place where you want tolerance and you want

00:47:45.380 openness and you want people to be able to get along and you want what you believe is

00:47:49.700 good.

00:47:49.980 But I don't agree that that is possible.

00:47:55.240 I, and I say that without the slightest hint of malice, without the slightest hint of, of

00:48:01.740 wanting to, to, to, to, to, to, to be, you know, you're my guest and I, and I welcome you

00:48:06.180 here and I want you to come again.

00:48:07.820 But I just don't think your priors meet this reality.

00:48:10.980 And just as a, as a, as a, as a further note, you are for all intents and purposes, a British

00:48:21.100 Jew having grown up as a British Jew.

00:48:23.560 I grew up in the Middle East where communal hatred is very open, very honest, absolutely

00:48:32.580 horrific, and you just sort of get on with it and, and, and do what you can.

00:48:37.760 And I'm seeing the Middle Easternization of the West and I see it because of the belief

00:48:48.080 that everybody can get along in the same way as English people and Jew and, and English

00:48:56.040 Jews got along with each other before the onset of diversity.

00:49:00.600 And I just don't think.

00:49:01.740 Well, I mean, there is a quality development here.

00:49:03.340 If you go back, if you go back to the turn of, you know, when we turned into 1900, back

00:49:11.220 then the Jewish population was around about 200,000, something like that.

00:49:15.480 And today it's not really much larger.

00:49:17.560 It's basically, basically the same size, but the Islamic population has gone from under

00:49:21.760 a hundred thousand at that point to several million at this point.

00:49:25.340 So, I mean, I mean, it is a, and, and, and when you've got, and I think the Jewish people

00:49:31.020 have always had a lot of in-group preference and, and, and community sense, but when the,

00:49:36.500 when the value system more or less aligns, you can fit into a larger population and it's

00:49:42.640 kind of seamless.

00:49:43.860 But, but when you get a large Islamic population that has a very different sense of what, how

00:49:50.400 communities should be organized, you do get these conflicts, but I think you're talking

00:49:55.040 about, I, I, well, I, I mean, before we move on, I mean, I mean, come, come back on, you

00:49:59.720 know, where, what, what, what it is that you're seeing, um, before we pivot.

00:50:03.900 Look, I think you have to keep Jewish people safe.

00:50:07.320 There is a threat.

00:50:08.720 There is Islamic terrorism out there that wants to eradicate Jews.

00:50:11.440 Okay.

00:50:12.000 So I'm, I see it, but from a psychotherapeutic perspective, I'm concerned about dividing

00:50:19.520 groups up and telling them that they're either perpetrators or victims because this narrative

00:50:25.140 then kind of seeps down through.

00:50:27.460 And I see some of what's been taught in, in, in, in Jewish schools as well in North London.

00:50:32.300 And these children have been brought up to believe that they are eternal victims, that

00:50:36.760 they will always be victims, that they always need to be very afraid and very wary.

00:50:40.400 Sometimes of anyone outside of their community, I've got some parents, I know, teaching their

00:50:46.220 children, Jewish families, never step foot in a Muslim country.

00:50:50.760 Now, this is too much.

00:50:53.320 This is unhelpful.

00:50:54.800 It does sound sensible to me, to be honest, but.

00:50:58.340 I'm a Jew.

00:50:59.120 I've, I've stepped foot in many Muslim countries.

00:51:01.380 There's been zero issue.

00:51:02.720 I'm not saying that there isn't a threat from Islamic terrorism, but I'm saying that we

00:51:06.520 have to inject a bit of nuance into this.

00:51:08.500 Um, and I don't think it's good for any group of people to see themselves as inherently perpetrators

00:51:15.160 of evil or victims of evil.

00:51:17.460 I don't think that's good for the human psyche.

00:51:19.180 I think that's my, my issue with this.

00:51:20.860 It's, it's about a bit of nuance in the debate.

00:51:23.120 Um.

00:51:23.820 I agree with all of that, but I would promise you that if you went to Egypt with a kippah

00:51:28.280 and walked down the street, you may or may not make it out alive.

00:51:32.900 Um, I'm just, I'm just conscious of time.

00:51:35.380 So shall we move to what we've got you on here to talk about?

00:51:38.600 Yeah.

00:51:39.560 Cover our topic.

00:51:41.560 Can we move us to the next segment?

00:51:44.360 Um, you pointed out basically how West Streeting was going on in September saying to an LGBT

00:51:51.820 event, uh, that banning puberty blockers made him very uncomfortable.

00:51:57.860 And now he's saying that trialing puberty blockers on underage children, uh, makes him

00:52:04.900 uncomfortable.

00:52:06.220 So, sorry, can we just pause there for a moment?

00:52:07.860 I mean, James, you, you, you know a lot more about this subject than I do, but my understanding

00:52:11.140 of these puberty blockers is this is what the same set of chemicals that we used to give

00:52:15.360 to sex criminals to chemically castrate them.

00:52:18.160 And what it effectively does is it, is it prevents them from going through puberty.

00:52:22.340 So you'll have these children given these blockers, they'll grow up with a otherwise

00:52:27.720 adult body, but with, um, but never having gone through puberty.

00:52:32.140 Is that right?

00:52:33.400 Well, essentially, and it's kind of seen as the first step on the pathway towards medical

00:52:38.240 transitioning, because a few years after this, then you'll be on the cross sex hormones,

00:52:42.240 which is getting the hormones from the opposite sex and then surgery, et cetera, weights down

00:52:48.040 the line.

00:52:49.080 Um, and children are told that it's a pause button, you know, it's fully reversible.

00:52:53.600 You know, if you want to, you want to restart puberty, just come off the medication.

00:52:56.540 But I mean, that's a completely, I mean, puberty isn't one of those things that just turns

00:53:00.300 up every few years.

00:53:01.160 It happens once.

00:53:03.160 Indeed.

00:53:04.080 And if all of your peers have started progressing through puberty where you've been kind of

00:53:07.000 trapped in this childlike state, I mean, on a kind of emotional social level alone,

00:53:10.760 that's going to be damaging.

00:53:11.680 But it's disrupting a natural part of, um, human development.

00:53:16.380 And we already know that it causes serious physiological issues in terms of brain development,

00:53:20.700 in terms of bone density, in terms of sexual functioning.

00:53:23.620 Um, so, yeah.

00:53:25.520 And how do we know that it causes these issues already?

00:53:28.480 Because it's been done in the past, right?

00:53:30.400 Correct.

00:53:30.980 The thing is, the data generally in this space is not particularly good.

00:53:34.640 I mean, the Tavistock, which put thousands of children down this medical pathway, kept next

00:53:39.220 to no data and did no follow-ups.

00:53:41.240 Is that in the UK?

00:53:42.080 Thousands of children in the UK?

00:53:43.320 Correct.

00:53:43.620 Do we know roughly how many were affected?

00:53:46.100 No.

00:53:46.880 Right.

00:53:47.280 But it's up there in the thousands?

00:53:49.060 Thousands.

00:53:49.960 Anything between 2,000 and 9,000, I think?

00:53:52.540 Yes.

00:53:52.780 But, but also there's, there's been private clinics operating again.

00:53:56.360 Um, but the Tavistock did this, you see, and that's the thing.

00:53:58.800 They don't, they don't, they didn't bother with the follow-ups.

00:54:00.700 They didn't bother with the due diligence.

00:54:02.060 And so.

00:54:02.560 Why didn't they?

00:54:04.560 Well, that's a very good question.

00:54:06.180 I mean, you know, there's some thinking that actually they didn't like what they were

00:54:09.800 seeing.

00:54:10.120 It certainly didn't back up their own narrative.

00:54:11.980 The children who were transitioning that it was automatically leading them to this kind

00:54:15.040 of state of euphoria where everything was kind of fine and dandy, actually.

00:54:18.440 You know, they, they didn't want to open their eyes to the reality of what was going

00:54:21.480 on.

00:54:22.640 Sorry to interrupt you.

00:54:23.600 The narrative was that if you don't do this to your children, they will end up committing

00:54:28.300 suicide.

00:54:29.580 Correct.

00:54:30.260 Um, and, and I've spoken to parents who'd be told in the clinic, you know, wouldn't you

00:54:33.980 rather have a trans child than a dead child?

00:54:36.240 That was the exact wording used.

00:54:37.780 So.

00:54:38.300 Do you know if that's accurate?

00:54:39.320 Because from what I've heard is actually the suicide goes right.

00:54:41.760 The suicide rate goes up after, after transition.

00:54:44.340 It's, it, yes, it's, it's completely inaccurate.

00:54:46.460 In fact, the government, uh, Professor, uh, Louis Appleby, um, who's, who's the government's

00:54:50.560 advisor on suicide prevention.

00:54:52.360 He did a research report into this and he says that it's simply not backed up in the

00:54:56.060 stats.

00:54:56.500 So it's, it's nothing more than scaremongering, but you can understand why parents would be

00:55:00.860 impacted by that and they'd want to do anything to keep their child alive.

00:55:03.760 So they went along with this and now their children, unfortunately, have suffered as a

00:55:07.960 consequence.

00:55:09.140 To what extent can it be reversed?

00:55:11.160 Let's say you, you, you skip puberty, you get to 20 and you decide to come off them.

00:55:17.300 Can anything be salvaged at that point?

00:55:19.360 Well, to be honest, by that point, if, if, if they're still minded to transition, these

00:55:24.500 children will be on the cross sex hormones, you know?

00:55:26.480 So a young girl is going to be given testosterone.

00:55:28.880 Yeah.

00:55:28.980 But if she, if she decides at age 20 that she's going to, she's going to try and reverse

00:55:33.600 it, is, is, is it possible to do?

00:55:35.460 I mean, can she ever have children?

00:55:37.180 No.

00:55:37.440 If you, if you, if you progress straight from puberty blockers, um, onto these cross sex

00:55:41.740 hormones, then no, you will almost certainly be left infertile.

00:55:45.140 Um, so it is simply irreversible, uh, in that respect.

00:55:49.640 Um, like I said, there's other psychosocial impact as well, but actually we've seen studies

00:55:54.460 it would show that the mere fact that you're on puberty blockers actually makes a child

00:55:57.920 less likely to even settle into their bodies.

00:55:59.780 So essentially it's putting them on a slippery slope.

00:56:02.140 Once you start with the puberty blockers, they are far more likely to go on and do a

00:56:05.320 kind of full medical transition.

00:56:06.800 Whereas if you leave them alone, most children will simply settle into their bodies over time,

00:56:11.100 naturally, as we all do.

00:56:13.140 Right.

00:56:14.260 And so do you, do you have a sense of, given that we know all of this, why are they so

00:56:21.140 committed to running this experiment again?

00:56:23.360 I don't understand.

00:56:25.660 Well, this is what we're saying as part of our judicial review.

00:56:28.640 Ultimately we're saying we already have the studies.

00:56:30.760 We already know what the issues are.

00:56:32.020 Um, ultimately it comes down to belief, uh, and ideology.

00:56:36.700 Um, and actually Hillary Cass, who wrote the Cass review, which is the report that ultimately

00:56:40.760 led to the closure of the Tavistock.

00:56:42.380 Yes.

00:56:42.940 And that was a very important review in many ways, but she herself in, in it actually

00:56:46.660 called for a clinical trial.

00:56:48.160 Right.

00:56:48.660 And she put out a statement recently and she said, although there is no evidence that

00:56:52.500 suggests that puberty blockers bring about any benefit, there are a lot of people out

00:56:56.000 there who believe that it does.

00:56:57.980 And therefore we owe it to them to do the trial.

00:57:00.580 I mean, that's not the language of medical ethics.

00:57:02.600 That's the language of ideology.

00:57:03.920 Belief has no, no, no, no setting in any of this.

00:57:06.960 I mean, there's people out there who believe that Coca-Cola can cure cancer.

00:57:10.760 But the government's not going to be running a Coke trial anytime soon.

00:57:14.600 No.

00:57:15.200 So belief should never, ever come into the picture when it comes to clinical testing.

00:57:18.680 But yet that's exactly what's propping up this, um, this trial in the first place.

00:57:22.520 So, which is why we're trying to do whatever we can to try and stop this.

00:57:26.040 Um, but they're moving pretty damn quickly with it.

00:57:28.700 When you say, when you say we, can you tell us a little bit about, about what your organization

00:57:32.560 is?

00:57:33.000 Because I know you, you were a criminal barrister.

00:57:35.120 Yes.

00:57:35.340 And you transitioned into therapy and now you run just therapy.

00:57:38.280 Interesting choice of word there, transition, but, uh.

00:57:40.720 Yes.

00:57:41.520 Fair point, fair point.

00:57:42.820 No, no drugs were involved in your transition.

00:57:46.520 Um, and I noticed that just there, I don't know much about the organization, but I noticed

00:57:49.780 just therapy has a set of scales, legal scales in its logo.

00:57:53.920 Yeah.

00:57:54.040 So, so what, what is it that the organization is and what is it trying to do?

00:57:58.440 Uh, just therapy is meant to be an antidote to what I would say is kind of the ideological

00:58:03.640 infiltration of the mental health professions and whether that's gender ideology, whether

00:58:07.000 it's critical race theory.

00:58:08.160 But essentially you've got people, activists posing as therapists who view it as their role

00:58:12.820 to kind of educate their poor, naive clients.

00:58:15.500 So I set up this directory of therapists that are meant to be ethical and meant to leave

00:58:20.060 ideology at the doorstep, um, not engage in, uh, unconditional affirmation of children

00:58:25.740 who say they're in the wrong body, not play with identity politics.

00:58:29.280 Um, but, but it's also a campaigning or an illegal organization to some extent?

00:58:33.740 Yes.

00:58:33.980 Well, we, we, we, we do campaigning to try and restore a kind of sense amongst the mental

00:58:37.860 health professions.

00:58:38.500 This judicial review that I'm in the process of taking, that's, there's a few claimants.

00:58:42.920 There's myself, there's Keira Bell, which may be familiar to some of your, um, listeners,

00:58:48.020 um, who is a young woman who, there she is, um, who went through the full medical transition

00:58:53.760 process and was left now with, well, unfortunately regret for the rest of her life because it did

00:58:59.340 untold damage to her.

00:59:00.400 So, so she, so she's a biological female who, who attempted to transition and then changed

00:59:06.160 her mind.

00:59:06.940 Correct.

00:59:07.300 Um, and she spent a number of years now campaigning, um, to try and stop, uh, children from being

00:59:14.560 medically transitioned.

00:59:15.420 So she's, she's extremely brave given what she's been through.

00:59:18.580 So it's myself, Keira, and then there's also a group called the Bayswater Support Group,

00:59:21.840 which is basically a support group for parents of children who say they're transgender.

00:59:26.400 So it's, it's like an old fashioned guild.

00:59:27.940 It's both a directory and it's campaigning for its interests.

00:59:30.160 Correct, yeah.

00:59:30.800 Okay.

00:59:31.440 So just sort of, you know, you see a lot of the people who would sort of, um, identify

00:59:36.740 either as trans or as supportive of the trans movement, having all kinds of qualms about

00:59:41.780 experimenting on animals.

00:59:43.200 Uh, and you shouldn't experiment on mice and you shouldn't experiment on rabbits and cosmetics should be, uh, animal experimentation free and all of that.

00:59:52.320 But these same people are absolutely comfortable with experimenting on children.

00:59:58.740 Have I got this right?

00:59:59.820 You do.

01:00:01.460 Uh, and actually I saw that there was a research proposal put in, um, recently to try and do some testing on animals, uh, with, with puberty blockers and, uh, the proposal was rejected.

01:00:11.680 Um, on, on, on ethical grounds.

01:00:13.380 Yes.

01:00:14.300 Um, so there are, there, there are some, uh, just hold on for a second.

01:00:19.820 It is unethical to give puberty blockers to animals to experiment on them, but West Streeting believes that it's ethical for us to do this to children.

01:00:32.660 Well, unfortunately the narrative has developed that this is actually the way to treat this condition and actually that you're doing these children a favor by allowing them to transition.

01:00:42.000 You see that, that's the problem because we've conflated now mental ill health with this sense of identity.

01:00:47.200 Yes.

01:00:47.680 Um, and there's, uh, there's a lot of clinicians out there, um, who would say that being transgender is, it's just, it's just an identity.

01:00:55.560 Right.

01:00:56.100 Whereas I'm coming from the perspective that this is a mental health condition and needs to be treated as such.

01:01:00.300 So there's been a kind of almost an attempt to de-pathologize it.

01:01:03.460 But then interestingly, my response to that would be, well, if it's not a pathology, why does it require prescription medication and then surgery?

01:01:10.520 Well, they want to have it both ways.

01:01:12.720 Yes.

01:01:13.320 Given that you've been looking into this, I'm, I'm, I'm intrigued to know what you think about the, the individuals who are spearheading this from the other side, because it's such an unimaginable evil.

01:01:23.440 What is motivating them?

01:01:24.520 Is it, is it, is it total malice or weird left-wing ideal?

01:01:27.860 What's going on?

01:01:30.060 For some, I think it is pure evil.

01:01:32.240 And I've, I've seen some of these people.

01:01:33.980 There's a, there's a woman called Dr. Helen Weberley who set up various gender clinics in the UK.

01:01:38.520 She's now gone over to the States to, um, to sell her poison there.

01:01:42.000 Um, I mean, when I, when I look at her speak, she, it's, it's like looking into the face of evil.

01:01:47.820 In fact, she did, um, she did a kind of video blog recently, um, when there was a decision to ban men from some women's sports and her backdrop was Auschwitz.

01:01:57.420 And she was suggesting that, uh, and she was suggesting that by denying, uh, adult males, the right to play in female sports and denying, uh, children, puberty blockers that were in some ways acting like a Nazi state.

01:02:10.500 Right.

01:02:11.340 So this, these are the type of characters kind of spearheading it.

01:02:14.620 Um, but actually the more nefarious way in which this ideology is seeped in is through your celebrity culture, through your business culture, through what's been taught in schools.

01:02:23.500 And that comes from so often a place of wanting to be nice and be kind and respect everyone's identity and embrace diversity.

01:02:31.500 And those people, I don't think are evil people, but I think that utterly naive and misguided.

01:02:36.260 And I think in their attempt to want a virtue signal, how nice they are to the rest of society, they're causing untold harm.

01:02:42.580 Um, yeah.

01:02:43.400 So I, I had a look into this.

01:02:44.720 The World Economic Forum had a report saying that 80% of Fortune 500 companies now have a policy paper that is pro-trans.

01:02:55.140 And you see that NATO, up until Trump's second term, was regularly posing with trans flags and with, with, with these kinds of things and promoting precisely this ideology.

01:03:09.420 And you see this being promoted by the British government, quite openly, and the British education system.

01:03:14.140 Um, by Biden, who's, um, I think one of his, um, his spokesmen, his spokeswoman, Jen Psaki, was going on about how this kind of treatment is best medical practice for children.

01:03:30.180 So it's infiltrated the highest levels of politics and business, exactly as you say.

01:03:36.520 You don't get more mainstream than Fortune 500 companies or than NATO, the British government, the American government, et cetera.

01:03:45.640 And you see these people sort of promoting this thing.

01:03:49.820 And my view on it has always been that there is a more evil political purpose in the following sense.

01:03:55.660 If I can make you look at me right now and say that I'm a woman, well, I can make you say anything.

01:04:01.100 I can pretty much break you psychologically and make you submit to my every whim.

01:04:10.160 Um, there, there is no, I mean, if, if I can make you lie about something that is so blatantly obvious, I can make you lie about the company's finances.

01:04:20.080 I can make you lie about what the government is doing.

01:04:22.980 I can make you lie about pretty much anything.

01:04:25.040 So in your examination of this, and you've seen these trans activists being incredibly militant and sending the police to hound people and taking people to, to, on trial because they, um, said that men are in fact men and can't become women.

01:04:45.080 Talk to me a little bit about the political dimension that you've seen and how this authority gets exercised by what I would describe as very power mad people.

01:04:53.900 Hmm. Well, you, you do gain a lot of power from this because part and parcel of this ideology is compelling other people's speech.

01:05:01.540 Yes. Um, and so I, I can see why they're getting off on that because they are forcing you to recognize them as something that you know, that they know that you are not.

01:05:15.800 Um, and if they don't do it, well, then you can accuse them of transphobia or as you've said, send the police around to the door.

01:05:20.840 So there's a lot of power in that, but actually, interestingly, I see that power seep down into the children caught up in this as well, because all of a sudden they can wield influence over their parents.

01:05:31.320 Yes.

01:05:31.680 And I have, I, I encounter a lot of parents who've been disowned by their children, young children, because they won't use their chosen pronouns or won't agree to send them to the gender clinic to go on puberty blockers.

01:05:42.500 And the kids are now identifying their parents as transphobic.

01:05:45.700 Some of them have complained to the schools that their parents are transphobic.

01:05:48.880 Some of these schools have got policies that say that if the parents are reported as being transphobic, that could be a matter for social services.

01:05:54.460 I mean, the children are being taught to wield power against the adults.

01:05:59.040 But that's precisely what happens in pretty much all totalitarian regimes where you turn children into snitches against their parents.

01:06:10.280 I'm also very interested in your, your, your point about, you know, when, when parents are getting, um, kind of run around on this.

01:06:16.260 I mean, I've, I've heard horror stories from California where, um, if they, if the child goes to the school, they can have the police turn up and take the child away from the parents.

01:06:27.020 And there's, there's pretty much nothing that the parents can do.

01:06:29.260 What's the current state in Britain?

01:06:31.140 If anybody watching this has a child who has decided that they're transgender and that they're going to make a fuss to the school or social services or stuff, what, what, what actually happens in this country at the moment?

01:06:43.200 And do the parents have any power?

01:06:46.000 To be honest, it depends on the school.

01:06:48.500 I mean, someone, a parent sent me a policy from their child's school the other day, uh, a transgender policy.

01:06:54.680 And in it, it says that if a child comes out as transgender in school, that, that is not a safeguarding issue that the parents need to be told about.

01:07:00.860 But if the child says to a teacher that the parents are against the child being trans, that may be a safeguarding issue that the school needs to do something with.

01:07:10.280 So a lot of them are propping up this stuff.

01:07:13.340 Um, and have we had examples of children being taken away from parents or, or parents being cut out of this in some way?

01:07:18.860 Well, I've, I've, I've, I've seen some family court proceedings whereby they're looking at things like custody and access.

01:07:26.040 And actually, yes, one, one parent is trying to accuse the other of transphobia and use that as a reason to deny them access, for example.

01:07:33.740 Um, I know that there's a lot of parents who've been reported to social services and even to the police because they're not on board with the children transitioning.

01:07:41.860 Um, I mean, this government is looking to put forward a ban on quote unquote conversion therapy, which is going to be extremely dangerous.

01:07:49.420 But actually, if you look at other jurisdictions in which similar legislation has been passed, um, they will criminalize parents who don't allow their children to transition.

01:07:58.840 And that could be waiting.

01:08:00.360 What is conversion therapy?

01:08:02.600 Well, historically, conversion therapy referred to the use of force, often sexual force, uh, or other forms of coercion to try and,

01:08:11.760 stop somebody from being gay.

01:08:14.860 Was it always force or just talk therapy?

01:08:18.080 Historically, in, in terms of what we know is conversion therapy, it was force and it was things like electric shock treatment.

01:08:25.800 Now, thankfully, these things have been banned for a long time in this country.

01:08:30.060 But this notion of we must still ban conversion therapy exists.

01:08:35.100 And what, what the government wants to do is essentially ban either conversations between a religious leader and a member of the congregation,

01:08:40.900 or therapists just talking to their clients.

01:08:44.540 So, so, so they're expanding it to any kind of talking therapy.

01:08:48.100 Yes.

01:08:48.580 That might sort of instill some sense in these young children who are obviously suffering, who are obviously confused.

01:08:54.480 Otherwise, they wouldn't have picked this identity.

01:08:56.580 Yes.

01:08:56.820 And they want to prevent people like you from talking to them as any child therapist might wish to do.

01:09:05.580 Sorry, conversion therapy is saying somebody that you are your actual gender.

01:09:10.880 Well, this is it because...

01:09:12.380 So it's backwards.

01:09:13.360 No, it's completely, yes, because the real conversion...

01:09:16.180 I'm in favor of banning conversion therapy, but, you know, with a Star Wars meme.

01:09:20.260 Yeah.

01:09:20.560 But it's directly, it's a complete inversion.

01:09:23.380 Correct.

01:09:23.660 And people accuse me of being a conversion therapist.

01:09:25.760 And I say, no, quite the opposite.

01:09:27.020 I'm not trying to change anyone.

01:09:28.180 I'm trying to get these people to accept themselves as they are.

01:09:31.000 That's the opposite of trying to convert something.

01:09:34.120 But the problem was that it used to be sexuality, but then gender identity got thrown into the mix,

01:09:39.140 as we see from the acronym LGBT.

01:09:42.340 And so now these, of course, Q plus exclamation mark, smiley face.

01:09:45.560 And so now, as a result, these things are completely conflated, even though they have nothing to do with one another.

01:09:51.440 So it's really quite worrying.

01:09:53.280 But a lot of practitioners I know won't even work with this cohort of clients for fear of already being accused of conversion therapy.

01:10:01.240 And I'm one of the few that seems to be willing to do it.

01:10:04.720 But it's not without risk.

01:10:05.800 And since you do have this big network of therapists and practitioners, what actually is underlying this?

01:10:13.100 Because, I mean, I wondered, to some extent, it might just be confused children, because a lot of young children,

01:10:18.920 you know, before they sort of come into puberty properly or the very early stages,

01:10:22.880 they don't really know where they sit on anything.

01:10:25.040 And they might wonder, am I gay?

01:10:26.260 Am I not?

01:10:26.660 Whatever.

01:10:28.800 But is this trans phenomena just rebranding gays and lesbians in an attempt to basically remove them?

01:10:37.840 In part.

01:10:38.240 We know from studies that most of these children, if they are just left alone, will just grow up to be gay.

01:10:44.660 Right, right.

01:10:45.580 But they will have settled into their own bodies.

01:10:47.900 Autism plays a big factor in this.

01:10:50.280 Again, we see it from the studies.

01:10:52.700 Almost all of my teenage clients who say they're transgender have an autism diagnosis.

01:10:57.380 Right.

01:10:57.900 So that is incredibly relevant.

01:10:59.440 In fact, there's a lot of comorbidities that exist alongside gender differences.

01:11:02.060 So, sorry, is it the confluence of being gay plus some level autistic, or sometimes is autistic just enough?

01:11:11.120 Yes.

01:11:11.680 Well, it can be a mixture of the two, or they can be independent.

01:11:15.800 But it can be for a multitude of reasons, like any other mental health presentation or any other form of dysphoria or dysmorphia, right?

01:11:22.660 Why does someone develop a dissatisfaction in their body and their place in the world?

01:11:28.040 For a whole host of reasons.

01:11:29.240 Some of my clients have experienced sexual trauma.

01:11:31.960 Some of my clients have experienced huge amounts of bullying at school and kind of eating away at them over time.

01:11:37.780 Some of them, I think, have just felt very alone and isolated and different, and all of a sudden they've got this ready-made community that they can be a part of.

01:11:44.220 Right.

01:11:44.300 For some, it's a bit of a trend and a fad, because everyone else is coming out as trans in their school.

01:11:50.420 So it would be lacking nuance to say that there's one particular cause, but what it very clearly is, is a mental health condition.

01:11:58.940 And the main reason for that is because it operates on the basis of delusion and not reality.

01:12:04.340 Well, when you say it's clear that, though, I remember seeing figures that rates of transsexualism was going up.

01:12:11.780 We hit COVID where the teachers no longer had access to the students and trans rates started to fall markedly and then only picked up again after the teachers got access to the children again.

01:12:24.080 So is it a mental health phenomenon or is it the mental health of who we let to be teachers these days that is causing this?

01:12:31.840 Is it a predatory class of ideology going after kids?

01:12:38.280 In part, yes.

01:12:39.820 And children are being targeted in this way and schools are engaging in indoctrination.

01:12:45.160 But amongst children, it does also operate in a kind of form of contagion, as you would see with forms of eating disorders or Tourette's...

01:12:51.760 The clusters that you see?

01:12:52.760 Yes.

01:12:53.660 And that's why you see numbers of children coming out as trans within weeks or months of each other in a single classroom.

01:12:58.660 And some of the children I've worked with in my practice have essentially confirmed this.

01:13:04.500 So it's a combination of, as I said, I think evil, but also this is the kind of liberal agenda these days.

01:13:15.780 And we've become so hyper-focused on this notion of identity that these children are spending just a hell of a lot of time navel-gazing and thinking about themselves in a way that I wish they had more important things to be thinking about.

01:13:31.500 In fact, I don't like using the word privileged very much, but I think the fact that you see this in the Western world and not in poorer countries or countries that are involved in military conflict is because our children are so privileged here that they have nothing to do but navel-gaze and think about themselves.

01:13:46.980 Well, that and pretty much all healthy avenues of expression have been cut off through the feminization of culture and through the safetyfication of culture.

01:13:55.440 In the sense that if you're a boy who's allowed to play, I don't know, football or rugby or boxing or whatever, this would be your natural outlet for you to express yourself.

01:14:08.960 This would be the way you learn how to behave.

01:14:11.640 If girls are allowed to be as feminine as they want to be, then they would be absolutely fine.

01:14:17.240 But if pretty much every single expression is seen as either sexist or racist or toxic masculinity or this, that or the other, then whereas transgenderism is seen as an approved ideology that is very often rewarded, well, incentives come into the picture.

01:14:36.580 And if you want to feel particularly special, you would sort of say that you're trans.

01:14:42.040 I mean, I've argued that sexual identity has become a sort of substitute for the soul in the sense that what is being said underneath all of this, you have people identifying as grey gender or as novigender or as genderqueer, which is both,

01:15:02.140 or as demifemme, which means that you might, you present as feminine, but it doesn't say anything about what you're, whether or not you're actually female, and all of these things.

01:15:14.020 And all of what these identities tell me is that these are people who are struggling to express their uniqueness, who are struggling to express who they are.

01:15:23.160 They don't have any outlet to express this, that is approved by the authorities, other than gender identity and sexuality.

01:15:33.720 And so this becomes their own way of saying that, A, I'm suffering because we all are and puberty is difficult, and B, I'm unique because we all are and living in the world is difficult.

01:15:46.440 What is the approved way of expressing these identities?

01:15:49.020 Well, I'm going to call myself novigender.

01:15:52.600 Well, back in my day, they became goths and wore black clothes, and then in my dad's day, it was, you know, they became punks.

01:15:59.960 And, you know, there's always something that marks out a group that's perhaps a bit special.

01:16:03.520 Absolutely.

01:16:04.660 The question that I have, sorry, from a clinician, if I was a clinician, which I'm obviously not, I would have to ask myself,

01:16:12.100 well, what is the difference between novigender and greygender, and how would I treat them differently?

01:16:18.880 Like, if this was a genuine thing, then presumably there would be one treatment protocol for this case, and a different one for the other.

01:16:27.480 But all these people are actually saying is, I'm suffering and I'm unique, which is true.

01:16:32.280 We all are.

01:16:33.100 Well, we see that point you're raising there with, let's say, the surgeries performed, because there are people who are non-binary, right?

01:16:37.980 And the question is, and it should be, this should be the question from a surgeon's perspective, what does a non-binary body actually look like, right?

01:16:45.380 Because this woman's coming in saying she's non-binary and she wants me to remove her breasts, but where does it say in the manual that non-binary people don't have breasts?

01:16:53.140 So, essentially, it's just a kind of free-for-all.

01:16:55.460 You tell me how you want me to shape your body and identity, and I will do so, irrespective of whether it actually is just, I mean, it's such lunacy.

01:17:04.800 That we've been providing these surgeries, not just privately, but on the NHS as well.

01:17:10.140 I mean, it's madness.

01:17:12.040 I can't believe it.

01:17:14.140 I mean, I'm looking at a picture of Wes Streeting, and, you know, I should say I'm not surprised, given that he was head of education at Stonewall for a period of time.

01:17:23.780 And Stonewall, of course, is probably the most nefarious organisation for pushing this stuff across our society.

01:17:30.040 But he, I mean, he's on the precipice here.

01:17:35.500 And what I put out on X the other day, but he's trying to back both horses at the moment.

01:17:42.820 And it's not all right, because he's playing with children's well-being.

01:17:47.780 I mean, on a related but slight tangent, before we run out of time, I also wanted to ask you about trial by jury.

01:17:57.640 Yeah.

01:17:58.180 Because I've actually always valued that more than the right to vote, even though both of them are fundamental.

01:18:05.620 And the reason is, especially as somebody who talks for a living, I don't have any fear that anything I've said or tweeted on the show or anything, I would be afraid about defending in front of a jury of my peers.

01:18:18.680 I think I'd be fine in that situation.

01:18:20.400 And that sort of underpins, you know, free speech and freedom more broadly.

01:18:24.240 But if we get rid of trial by jury, if I criticise trans or whatever the issue is of the day, I have absolutely no confidence that I would not be criminalised by a judge for contravening state ideology when the judge has a .gov email.

01:18:44.600 And the case was recommended from the CPS who have .gov emails because I've transgressed the ideology of somebody who has a .gov email.

01:18:51.500 So, I mean, tell me as a former barrister, you know, what is the barrister's reaction to these plans and what do you think is going on there?

01:19:03.860 Well, it flies in the face of the fundamental ethics of our legal and justice system.

01:19:10.760 I mean, it's shocking that this has been put forward when this was not in their manifesto either, because this is a significant change.

01:19:16.360 I mean, this is going to completely change the way our society operates in terms of the justice system.

01:19:20.140 Magistrates' courts are notorious for convicting people.

01:19:23.520 I mean, if you look at the conviction rate in the magistrates' court versus the Crown Court, there's no comparison.

01:19:28.980 It's almost a foregone conclusion you're going to be convicted in a magistrates' court, actually.

01:19:33.080 When I was practising, I think it was upwards of 90%.

01:19:35.700 Right.

01:19:36.940 So, and that is an issue, particularly when you say these kind of free speech cases that we're seeing more and more these days.

01:19:43.560 Magistrates are far more likely to convict than a jury.

01:19:46.620 And so there is a question there around whether people are actually getting a sense of fair justice there or whether they're in front of a hardened magistrate, possibly politically motivated.

01:19:56.040 I mean, we don't have a politicised judiciary in the way that America does, but we are seeing increasing signs of judges kind of viewing themselves as activists on the bench.

01:20:04.020 So I'm really quite concerned about it.

01:20:07.160 I'm also concerned about just how broad this decision was because, you know, when you put out the statement, Lammy says, well, you know, we're retaining jury trials.

01:20:15.200 You know, the most serious offence is, you know, rape, murder.

01:20:17.220 But actually, yeah, I think it's any crime that on average would get less than I think it was three years in prison will no longer get a jury trial.

01:20:25.980 But it still matters to me that I get put in jail for four years for something I tweeted.

01:20:30.800 Yeah, of course.

01:20:32.780 No, I completely agree.

01:20:35.680 But if this was, you know, we're just trying to ease the load abyss of the courts and, you know, just some of these more kind of novel offences or whatever.

01:20:44.540 But actually, you're going to find sexual assaults, possession of offensive weapons.

01:20:49.320 Speech crime as well.

01:20:50.420 And speech crimes.

01:20:51.240 Yes, all of those.

01:20:52.260 But I can't give any credence to the excuse that it will speed things up because I've been a juror twice and we spent 90 percent.

01:21:00.920 I mean, I finished two books on jury service.

01:21:03.740 I mean, reading, not writing.

01:21:05.120 But they wouldn't have kept his waiting around for much longer for me to actually finish two books writing them.

01:21:11.040 So it's clearly not the jury that adds to this.

01:21:14.220 And actually, I think, well, when it comes to presenting the case, the barristers presenting their case, that's going to take the same amount of time,

01:21:19.460 whether they're doing it to a judge or a jury is sat off to the side or not.

01:21:23.200 So what do you think is actually going on here?

01:21:24.980 Is it just a grab for state power?

01:21:28.520 Well, we have seen a shift in the length of cases generally across the board, including criminal trials.

01:21:33.260 I mean, criminal trials are lasting a lot longer these days than they used to.

01:21:36.000 Now, you could say, well, it's because we've got different forms of evidence that are being used.

01:21:38.920 And so, you know, it takes a lot more time to actually collate all of that.

01:21:42.600 But two barristers presenting the arguments are going to take the same amount of time, whether there's a jury there or not.

01:21:46.900 Well, adding in a jury does elongate it somewhat.

01:21:50.420 You know, there is still the process of actually having to get the jury sorted, swear them in.

01:21:54.920 Also, because the jury aren't allowed to hear everything and some of the legal arguments that have been made, they're having to leave.

01:22:00.540 I mean, you may have seen it in your own cases that you did where you're having to leave.

01:22:03.520 There's a discussion between the judge and the barristers.

01:22:05.520 Then you're brought back in, you know, in a magistrate, you know, with a district judge hearing it, you can avoid some of that.

01:22:10.960 But no, it's not going to make a great deal of difference because the issue is actually in the system and how long it's even taken us just to do the work to get to court in the first place.

01:22:21.300 It's not even necessarily the trials themselves that are taking so long.

01:22:23.900 People are having to wait a long time for justice in this country because of the policing system and actually a complete lack of prioritization.

01:22:29.200 And, you know, I was pleased to see recently that they're going to hopefully stop investigating these bloody non-crime hate incidents.

01:22:33.940 You know, that's what police have been spending all the time doing.

01:22:36.860 So what do you think it's really about then?

01:22:40.380 Well, I try not to be so cynical about these things.

01:22:46.200 I view Lammy as a bit of a clown who doesn't know what he's doing.

01:22:49.820 And he's, sorry, David.

01:22:51.980 And he's kind of, he's kind of latched onto this as some brilliant idea that's going to, you know, get headlines because he's really taking tough action to cut down the backlog and, you know, get justice moving again.

01:23:01.800 And that's, I don't, I think he's, I think he's too thick to have come up with anything more nefarious than that, if I'm completely honest with you.

01:23:10.720 Well, I mean, I doubt he's come up, I doubt somebody's come up with it and pushed it in front of him and he's, he's gone, oh yeah, that's all right.

01:23:15.840 Then let's, let's do that.

01:23:17.020 Do you think there's any realistic chance of stopping it or Labour just going to push it through because they're, they're like that?

01:23:22.740 I certainly hope so.

01:23:24.540 And I know various groups of lawyers, judicial academics, et cetera, who are petitioning very, very strongly on this.

01:23:32.980 I mean, this would be a travesty.

01:23:34.940 I mean, so much of the world has followed our legal and justice system and as the kind of paradigm and trial by jury is the, the, the most fundamental.

01:23:43.800 Absolutely.

01:23:44.140 It's more important than voting.

01:23:45.240 I agree.

01:23:45.960 I agree.

01:23:46.280 So I, I, I sincerely hope so.

01:23:49.460 I sincerely hope so.

01:23:50.820 But under this government, I mean, who the hell knows?

01:23:53.660 Who the hell knows?

01:23:54.480 Is, is, is, and, and, and finally, just, I mean, just, just to wrap this off because we're running out of time.

01:24:00.060 Is there anything that the audience or we can do positively on either of those two issues, either the trial by jury stuff or the work that you're doing at your organisation?

01:24:11.180 Which, I mean, I, I hate saying this, but I, you, you've got to write to your MP.

01:24:17.420 They, they, they, they have to know how much outrage there is across the country on both of these issues.

01:24:22.740 There's a protest happening this Wednesday outside the Department of Health at 1 p.m. against the Puberty Blocker trial.

01:24:29.220 I would encourage people to attend that as well.

01:24:32.260 So 1 p.m. Wednesday, the day after tomorrow.

01:24:35.480 Correct.

01:24:36.660 Wednesday the 17th, that would be, outside of the Department of Health in London.

01:24:40.460 Correct, and I'm told there'll be a number of MPs there because there's been various kind of cross-party letters that have gone in to Wes Streisand to try and ask him to pull back on this.

01:24:48.540 So, okay, I'd say the, the positive thing is that Wes Streisand, just like his boss Starmer, seems to go whichever way the political wind is blowing.

01:24:56.280 And because of that, I think they can potentially be influenced and swayed.

01:25:00.100 And I think if people do make enough noise, I think, I could see a scenario in which Streisand could back down from this.

01:25:06.800 He certainly got an excuse.

01:25:07.700 Are you cynical enough to believe that they would back down on the transgender experiment but plow ahead with the judicial change because that's what they're actually after?

01:25:16.920 I could see that.

01:25:17.780 Yeah.

01:25:19.480 Unfortunately.

01:25:20.500 But, you know, we're not, I and we are going to do whatever we can to stop them, okay?

01:25:25.000 So there are, as I said, there's cross-party letters, there's petitions from the public.

01:25:27.980 Look, I've got this judicial review underway.

01:25:30.800 If we need to go to the Supreme Court, we're going to go to the Supreme Court.

01:25:33.280 We've already got the funding in place.

01:25:34.400 So he's not going to have an easy ride with this one way or the other.

01:25:37.000 And I hope that a few months down the line we can have a conversation.

01:25:40.180 We can say that actually this whole thing was culled before it even began.

01:25:44.540 I hope so.

01:25:45.320 I hope so.

01:25:45.840 I pray that it happens.

01:25:47.320 Where can people find you?

01:25:48.120 Where can people follow your work?

01:25:49.800 I live on X, much to my wife's dismay.

01:25:52.420 So you can find me on X.

01:25:53.620 I've got a sub-stack as well.

01:25:55.480 And if people want ethical, non-ideological therapy, go onto my website, which is just

01:26:00.740 jamesesser.com, or you can see our directory, which is Just Therapy.

01:26:03.540 And we've got about 80 or 90 UK-based practitioners there who will offer ethical therapy, no identity

01:26:09.680 politics.

01:26:10.040 So if somebody, you know, if somebody's got a child and they come home from school one

01:26:13.420 day and suddenly announce they're trans, they should go to your website as a starting

01:26:16.920 point to find support and help.

01:26:19.140 Indeed.

01:26:19.420 And I can either signpost them or I may be able to work with their children myself.

01:26:22.680 So.

01:26:23.540 Excellent.

01:26:24.460 Thank you for doing the work that you're doing.

01:26:26.220 Really appreciate it.

01:26:27.160 Very grateful to have you here.

01:26:28.400 Yes.

01:26:29.200 Let's look at some of the comments that come in.

01:26:32.700 Laura says, are they forcing Jews to return to Israel for their safety?

01:26:39.520 I don't know who they is.

01:26:40.360 I think they're just trying to kill them, I suspect.

01:26:42.880 I mean, Dragon Lady Chris has signed up as a monthly supporter.

01:26:48.180 Thank you for doing that.

01:26:49.060 Um, uh, not just a string says, uh, Tariq makes dialogue.

01:26:56.220 It makes dialogue.

01:26:56.880 It's impossible.

01:26:57.600 It makes dialogue.

01:26:58.620 It's a long conversation.

01:27:00.320 Uh, Dragon Lady says, uh, testing for something for the chat mod.

01:27:03.180 Okay.

01:27:03.320 Thank you for testing.

01:27:04.540 Uh, Tom says, uh, iron with a few percent of carbon becomes high tensile steel.

01:27:09.200 10% it becomes pig iron and useless.

01:27:11.900 Yeah, I'll be making a comment about the level of demographic change.

01:27:15.820 Um, one for one.

01:27:16.760 Paladin says, uh, hi Faraz.

01:27:18.280 I would love to know more about this development of Islam.

01:27:20.640 Is it hard to conceive, uh, this stuff from outside?

01:27:23.720 You can read a good book called The Closing of the Muslim Mind.

01:27:27.440 I can't remember the author right now, but it's called The Closing of the Muslim Mind.

01:27:30.600 And then it's really, really good.

01:27:32.340 Mm.

01:27:33.680 Uh, Cranky Texan says, all three Abrahamic religions were a reaction to the same ancient evil.

01:27:38.940 That same evil is driving current events.

01:27:42.220 We can't fall into the trap.

01:27:44.080 Um, I'm not sure I fully understand that one.

01:27:46.280 Neither do I.

01:27:47.020 Okay.

01:27:47.900 There may be, there may be more behind that one.

01:27:50.380 Um, and, and a couple of comments from, um, our, our subscribers, of course.

01:27:55.440 Um, Sophie lives as, uh, it will sound mad to people, but I was in Vietnam.

01:27:58.860 I love the food.

01:27:59.600 I brought the cookbooks home back with me.

01:28:02.500 Um, that is a potential solution to the Piers Morgan conundrum.

01:28:07.160 Yeah.

01:28:08.160 Um, uh, Cumbrian Kulak says, uh, the Christianity promotes a guilt-based society.

01:28:16.600 Islam is a shame-based society.

01:28:18.980 Judaism is in the middle, uh, but more of a shame-based.

01:28:21.920 Guilt-based society.

01:28:23.060 You were responsible for your actions.

01:28:24.680 You are to be judged by God.

01:28:26.280 Uh, groups with, um, shame society.

01:28:29.600 Group dynamics take priority over personal responsibility.

01:28:34.080 Uh, perhaps so.

01:28:36.060 Um, Jumbo G says, I'm no gun expert, but I thought Australia banned private ownership

01:28:40.900 of these sort of high-powered rifles after the Port Arthur massacre.

01:28:43.920 No, these are hunting weapons.

01:28:45.400 Uh, the, the bolt-action rifle and the shotgun are hunting weapons.

01:28:48.420 They don't need to, they're not included in the ban.

01:28:51.680 Right.

01:28:52.720 But I mean, it's still heavily licensed though, isn't it?

01:28:54.680 Yes, yes.

01:28:55.480 So whoever owned them either got them criminally or had licenses for them.

01:29:01.220 Um, I will go to, um, our second segment there.

01:29:08.180 Um, California Refugee says, California is a trans kid sanctuary state by law.

01:29:13.740 Narcissistic mothers kidnap their kids, bring them here and get them transed here.

01:29:17.260 I hate it.

01:29:17.700 My taxes and my medallion insurance pay for it.

01:29:19.860 Yeah, there was that absolute, I mean, you must know the one I'm talking about.

01:29:22.020 There was this absolutely horrific story of a guy who, I think he, his wife wanted to

01:29:27.220 get the boy transed and he was fighting it as hard as he could.

01:29:31.520 That was in Texas.

01:29:33.420 I thought, didn't they start off in California?

01:29:35.400 That was actually in Texas.

01:29:36.860 Was it?

01:29:37.600 Yep.

01:29:38.180 And the boy got castrated in the end.

01:29:39.760 Yep.

01:29:40.440 And, uh.

01:29:41.160 What a horrific thing for a father to be powerless in that situation.

01:29:45.160 Yep.

01:29:45.680 But that was actually in Texas, I think.

01:29:47.480 We've seen that in this country as well.

01:29:48.780 Susie Green, who's the founder of Mermaids or CEO of Mermaids is like this trans children's

01:29:54.540 charity, I mean, particularly dangerous.

01:29:57.520 Um, she took her son off, I believe it was to Thailand.

01:30:00.400 Um.

01:30:01.000 Good God.

01:30:02.840 God help us.

01:30:04.200 And just mutilated him there.

01:30:06.840 Yeah.

01:30:09.080 So, this stuff is going on in this country as well.

01:30:11.760 But, you know, actually just, I mean, to that point, you know, obviously we know of Munchausen

01:30:15.360 syndrome, but there is also Munchausen by proxy.

01:30:17.540 And actually there is a question around what a lot of the parents who are pushing the stuff

01:30:22.140 are getting out of it.

01:30:22.960 And again, they're getting the same thing the child's getting.

01:30:25.660 Attention.

01:30:26.200 Attention.

01:30:27.280 Celebration.

01:30:28.040 You're so special.

01:30:29.200 Pride.

01:30:30.400 Um.

01:30:31.120 Yeah.

01:30:31.580 It's not good.

01:30:32.640 I mean, it's extraordinary to me that the conversation that we're having about this

01:30:35.700 is, you know, can we slow down a trial?

01:30:38.440 Can we, can we get a slight policy shift on conversion therapy?

01:30:44.100 When actually the conversation we should be having is how do we punish the people who've

01:30:48.260 done this to children?

01:30:49.140 But we are nowhere near that level of conversation yet.

01:30:51.500 No, and I wrote a letter to Keir Starmer last year, signed by a number of MPs and other

01:30:58.300 professionals calling for, I mean, I know we have a lot of public inquiries and there's

01:31:02.020 a bit of fatigue with those, but a public inquiry into the way in which this ideology

01:31:04.900 infiltrated society.

01:31:06.020 Because I think we actually need to look back at that at some point.

01:31:08.880 Otherwise, no one's going to be held to account.

01:31:10.460 My concern is that we changed the law and all the rest of it for the better.

01:31:14.500 But everyone responsible for this just is able to kind of ride off into the sunset.

01:31:17.520 I believe that the surgeons performing this mucillation need to be behind bars.

01:31:23.200 I agree.

01:31:23.560 Absolutely.

01:31:24.120 100%.

01:31:24.960 Mind you, if we start going after people who have passed transactions, I mean, we're going

01:31:29.000 to need a lot more prisons.

01:31:30.300 We've got the whole COVID era stuff.

01:31:31.820 We've got good, God knows what, you know, number of crimes to go back for.

01:31:36.840 So, yeah, remarkable situation we found ourselves in.

01:31:39.540 I think we have to finish there, given the time.

01:31:43.140 But thank you so much for coming in.

01:31:45.420 You've been absolutely brilliant.

01:31:46.680 Thanks, guys.

01:31:47.680 Great.

01:31:48.500 So, yeah, until next time, cheerio.

The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters - December 15, 2025

The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters #1317

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