The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters - The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters #1382

00:00:00.560 Hello and welcome to Podcast of the Lotus Eaters, I'm joined by Josh and Harry.

00:00:05.900 Hello, you're here.

00:00:07.360 So this is episode 1382, it is Wednesday the 25th of March, Year of Our Lord 2026, and

00:00:16.300 it is day 31 of me offering to plait Harry's hair.

00:00:21.340 Still no budging on that, sorry friend.

00:00:23.100 oh okay well wait it's either that or maybe get you a couple of little pigtails down either side

00:00:29.880 turn you into a right little sex pot this is a very specific fetish that you're appealing to

00:00:34.540 right now and i i don't want any part of it frankly okay well maybe that's what you get up

00:00:39.220 to in london but we're not in london yeah well never mind but okay right fine so um oh also

00:00:44.740 the um the chat has stopped working we don't know why but it has um so if you go over to something

00:00:52.000 called the rumble.com um you can chat there if you want to chat to people if you're chatty right

00:00:59.280 um you're going to be telling us about south africa um and then um harry and i are going to

00:01:05.460 come in like the damn busters and drop excrement all over matt goodwin for two segments so with

00:01:10.320 that i mean he smothers it all over oh and also also live event i'll be mentioning that okay good

00:01:18.100 so i'm going to be talking about how the media is lying about south africa because

00:01:25.040 you may have remembered trump's refugee plan and it's all about that and it's one of the most

00:01:32.000 dishonest tricks i think i've seen the media try and pull in a long time but before i get into it

00:01:37.020 it's worth mentioning lotus eaters has a live event it's in swindon if you can brave coming here

00:01:41.520 on the 11th of april there are still a few tickets left i think it's uh close to being sold out but

00:01:47.760 i think i think no i think the what is it the vip ones they're either gone or almost gone but the

00:01:53.680 regular tickets there are still some of those okay vip get i don't know maybe they get a show

00:01:58.320 in my hand or something i don't know oh there you go nobody's told me you get to hang out with us i

00:02:02.340 think is the the idea i don't know um but yes it's going on if you'd like to uh come and listen

00:02:08.100 to us live and have some fun and meet some of the other people in the audience that is the place to

00:02:12.200 do it but with that out of the way let's talk about this so all the way back in i think may

00:02:18.760 of last year wasn't it yes um lots of south africans white south africans went to the u.s

00:02:25.200 under trump's refugee plan i thought that this was a good idea because white south africans are

00:02:30.280 clearly um living in a dangerous country for them because they're persecuted as a minority

00:02:36.620 by the black majority and the anc government what's the demographics of south africa i mean

00:02:41.920 is like five percent white at this point or something i'm not entirely sure but i think it's

00:02:46.520 um small enough that the uh the majority there is able to you know really uh persecute people

00:02:55.440 and and the laws we've we've covered on this podcast are quite shocking to be honest so why

00:03:01.020 are we pursuing the same demographic plan here good question um this is sort of what's in store

00:03:06.800 for us if we carry on okay there is no redemption but that's not the focus what the focus is is that

00:03:13.240 lots of media outlets like this one started arguing that well white south african refugees

00:03:21.120 that they put in inverted commas there choose to head home instead of living under trump

00:03:26.700 they're trying to you know turn it into trump bad also south africans are lying about being

00:03:34.280 persecuted even though we have the videos and we know the laws and look at the state of this

00:03:40.620 the trump administration's crusade to in quote save white south africans from supposed persecution

00:03:46.300 is backfiring instead of embracing his invitation to america growing numbers of those same

00:03:51.580 expatriates are buying one-way tickets home disillusioned by the violence fear and brutality

00:03:57.040 in trump's united states as opposed to the peace and harmony of south africa yeah which is one of

00:04:03.900 the most absurd things i think i've ever heard and i might actually skip ahead quickly and just

00:04:09.300 show people how south africa has degenerated this is a very good account on x that shows you you

00:04:15.740 know 2009 2025 how everything is just going backwards so i wonder what has happened here

00:04:24.200 what what sort of change in uh governance has happened here to diversity yes i say diversity i

00:04:29.880 I mean, there isn't much of that, but...

00:04:32.140 Just look at the state of it.

00:04:33.640 It's terrible.

00:04:35.360 And things like this as well.

00:04:37.060 So you could be, you know, a white South African living in this farmstead.

00:04:43.720 And then as time goes on, all of a sudden,

00:04:48.100 your neighbourhood just turns into a shantytown.

00:04:51.900 I was going to say, is that just a shantytown pops up?

00:04:54.780 Yes.

00:04:55.460 And then all of them living in squalor end up looking at your farmstead?

00:04:59.260 and wondering, oh, why do you have it so good?

00:05:02.620 Exactly.

00:05:03.600 And, of course, that's how we know about lots of these farmland murders

00:05:07.040 and, of course, lots of different reasons.

00:05:08.660 How could you live there?

00:05:10.000 I mean, your threat of home invasion has got to be high.

00:05:15.140 Exactly.

00:05:16.020 And that's why I think Trump offered the refugee plan in the first place,

00:05:20.920 and I think that that was perfectly reasonable to do.

00:05:23.160 And even things like this...

00:05:24.140 Oops, I did not mean to do that.

00:05:26.880 Oh, it's gone. Never mind.

00:05:27.880 But it was a road that looked perfect, you know, perfectly flat.

00:05:31.840 And then within 12 years, it looked like a dump.

00:05:36.960 But the BBC even got in on this.

00:05:41.220 A bunch of, by the way, interesting names here.

00:05:45.320 Dan, do you want to try and help us pronounce some of these?

00:05:48.340 No problem.

00:05:51.480 Uncheki Uga Bonner, possibly.

00:05:54.840 uh kekistan simba and basmati el attic um mubarak abdullah bella twine and blessing

00:06:09.540 flawless yeah but my point being here that maybe there's a touch of an incentive here

00:06:19.000 to undermine the narrative that white South Africans are persecuted

00:06:23.780 because, as you can probably guess from their names,

00:06:27.140 they're probably not white South African,

00:06:28.860 but they're talking about how thousands of white South Africans abroad,

00:06:32.040 including in the US, are returning home

00:06:34.180 despite President Donald Trump alleging that they're being targeted.

00:06:37.520 A claim that the South African government denies.

00:06:39.520 I mean, it's undeniable.

00:06:40.940 At least 12,000 have checked their citizenship status

00:06:43.680 in preparation for a permanent return.

00:06:45.520 South African relocation agency has reported a 70% surge in inquiries over the past six months

00:06:51.340 and one thing I did want to point out here is without an actual number for the number of returns

00:06:57.160 a 70% increase could be from two people to three people so that doesn't really mean a lot in

00:07:04.020 isolation you'd need more numbers than you've got there to make any conclusion of it but all of this

00:07:11.340 stems from this Reuters article that is titled Trump says white South Africans are persecuted

00:07:17.460 some are returning to a better life which is a bit unfair I think so what what South Africans

00:07:24.940 always tell me is that it is a great life out there when you're not getting murdered

00:07:30.020 like people who live in the Western Cape for example I hear lots of good things from there

00:07:35.560 but if you live in like downtown johannesburg i'd be a little bit worried yes i don't know i don't

00:07:42.100 know apparently women just aren't expected to stop at traffic lights in johannesburg because

00:07:46.860 they just will be murdered eventually yeah it's not a safe place whatsoever so this is obviously

00:07:53.720 a politically motivated article and the source of these other ones as well um and i i couldn't

00:07:59.980 really believe what i was reading because uh it's obviously absurd we we've covered extensively

00:08:06.060 the farmland murders the uh the nature of the violent crime as well uh malema chanting kill

00:08:13.840 the boar um explicitly inciting violence and the anc not doing anything about it because they're

00:08:20.100 saying oh it's it's just a cultural thing you know it's not actually calling for violence despite

00:08:25.320 the fact that he talks about killing the boar seizing their farmland and was uh in court for

00:08:30.460 a long time for shooting a firearm at one of his rallies which i think gives you the impression that

00:08:36.060 maybe he means it i mean if if i were to sing i don't know burn the jewish ambulance i'm pretty

00:08:43.120 sure i'd be arrested within five minutes let alone killing anyone yes so they're obviously

00:08:49.860 being allowed by the ANC that are sympathetic to Malema and, you know, help facilitate the

00:08:56.200 crimes against the white population by bringing in all of these laws. The most recent one was the

00:09:01.840 land expropriation bill, where they could just take land from white people and not even give

00:09:07.200 them any compensation for it. And so you had just groups of black people turning up, just trying to

00:09:14.840 swindle people out of their land, from what I've seen of the clips. And of course, the local

00:09:19.500 officials as well responsible for it are corrupt and so they'll give out parcels of land in

00:09:25.520 exchange for kickbacks from people who already own it which is not good but there is some hope

00:09:33.660 because the head of public relations at Afriforum which is a great organization basically represents

00:09:43.460 the Afrikaner minority or the white minority in South Africa and has done some great work

00:09:48.720 I know that they were invited over to the US at one point and the ANC made a big fuss saying,

00:09:54.060 oh, they're traitors, blah, blah, blah. But when your government is facilitating, you know,

00:09:59.640 the conditions for your people's eradication, I think it's fair that you do something about it

00:10:04.500 personally. You talk about South Africa still or you back to the UK? I mean, both apply. Okay.

00:10:11.600 So one of the things that he points out here is that the original Reuters article that spawned

00:10:17.180 all the false claims is based on the testimony of only three returning white expats. So some

00:10:22.780 great journalism there. One who left for the US in 2003. So I imagine their experiences

00:10:31.900 in South Africa would have been a bit different from modern South Africans in the first place.

00:10:37.200 One who left for the US 20 years ago and one who left for the Netherlands at an unspecified

00:10:43.740 time so that is not a good enough sample of people to say that lots of south africans are

00:10:51.660 returning that's free people and they're also people who seemingly left you know various other

00:10:58.940 places one of them didn't even go to the united states so it doesn't really make any sense

00:11:03.680 fundamentally it's not enough people to fill a black taxi so no what's the story no there's no

00:11:08.480 story they're inventing it and this is what the media does and it's very egregious and another

00:11:13.840 thing that he points out is based on the comments by the minister of home affairs that a thousand

00:11:20.040 people have reclaimed their citizenship no race or country was specified by the minister

00:11:25.680 and there was also no indication that these expats used president trump's refugee offer in the first

00:11:31.500 place so this is another additional thing where they're trying to say that listen we're having

00:11:35.320 people return but that could have been you know non-Afrikaners non-white people so it doesn't

00:11:42.800 again mean anything and this is all being orchestrated to create this artificial narrative

00:11:47.180 that actually you know South Africa is not so bad the real nasty place is the United States and

00:11:52.520 it's very convenient if you are left-wing because you can not only say oh orange man bad Trump's

00:11:59.500 America is evil and they're killing people blah blah blah which is obviously sensationalizing

00:12:05.080 the situation but also you can say south africa is good they're diverse they are nice people they

00:12:10.520 don't murder white people for the sake of being white no they don't take their stuff

00:12:15.160 um it's a nice place that's better than america when obviously um i would rather be a white person

00:12:22.900 in america than south africa and i know parts of south africa um are very secure they're basically

00:12:28.780 living off the grid with their own infrastructure little orango place or whatever it's called

00:12:33.120 Iranian yeah and there are also other places like that where they can live a normal life

00:12:39.500 but still there's this looming threat of people storming in and potentially doing you harm for

00:12:47.840 the sake of who you are as a person and at least in parts of the United States you can live a

00:12:53.100 relatively safe life without that fear although I wouldn't live in Chicago if I were you so he

00:12:59.460 He carries on to say that the original article cites comments from SA expats from a Facebook

00:13:09.400 group as evidence and the comments are only of ten people and seven are from Europe and

00:13:16.020 three from the USA and again there's no specification of their race.

00:13:21.200 So this is just, I don't know what your impression of this original Reuters article is at the

00:13:26.020 minute but to my mind this isn't there's been no attempt here to do some actual journalism

00:13:31.180 seems like cherry picking it does yeah it seems like they they had an agenda because i can believe

00:13:36.440 that there is probably a portion of people who have come over from south africa to other countries

00:13:43.020 who are massive slibs who don't see a problem with what's going on in south africa and they

00:13:48.640 want to return to kind of like rub it in other people's faces as like a fulfillment of some

00:13:53.420 racial utopia i can believe that because those people do actually exist the reuters article

00:13:58.940 doesn't seem to be pointing to those types and also seems to be like you say just trying to

00:14:04.460 craft the narrative that it's the refugees who came over who are doing that where it doesn't

00:14:09.660 actually seem to be those specific refugees who came over who are thinking of returning

00:14:14.700 yeah and it's not to the point as well whereby many south africans are like yes this is an

00:14:21.340 existential problem and we need to do this for survival. There are many people of South

00:14:26.360 African origin, white South Africans, that buy into the narrative that no, the ANC were

00:14:32.080 good, Nelson Mandela was a hero.

00:14:35.260 And he's literally a terrorist.

00:14:36.780 I know, yeah. Of course he is. It's annoying that we have statues of him in Britain. It's

00:14:41.700 like, I'm sorry, but this is not a good person.

00:14:44.340 Where do we have a statue of him?

00:14:46.120 I don't know.

00:14:46.820 I would expect London.

00:14:47.900 Oh yes, we do, yeah.

00:14:48.860 But yeah, it's very frustrating

00:14:53.480 And there is a lesson here outside of South Africa as well

00:14:56.380 That even though they've underwent some of the most egregious racial conflicts in the white world

00:15:05.380 There are many white South Africans who still believe in this quite left-wing liberal idea of

00:15:13.840 It's wonderful that the ANC have taken over

00:15:17.680 apartheid you know it was awful it wasn't that you know it made everything work but it was mean and

00:15:25.200 and they they weren't the same as us didn't the even the blacks of south africa have higher life

00:15:30.640 expectancy under yes i mean and from the pictures that we saw there as well you can see functional

00:15:36.880 streets and electricity the thing got me i mean i did a segment a while ago on um south africa

00:15:42.080 must have been a year ago and it was about their sort of power supply and because their power

00:15:46.240 network is so unreliable they gave everybody an app to see when the power was going to be turned

00:15:52.260 off in advance so you can plan around it they call it load shedding yes but what what the what

00:15:56.720 the locals actually did was whenever they realized that the power was going to be turned off they

00:16:01.740 started pulling off all the power cable stripping the copper and selling it so that it never came

00:16:06.480 back on again i mean that's some big brave move big brain moves right there i've heard about um

00:16:12.680 people going to electrical transformers and taking the oil out to use for cooking which

00:16:19.780 is not advised by the way i also believe that the reason for some of those pictures that we saw of

00:16:25.380 the roads having been pulled up was that they literally break up the tarmac so they can sell

00:16:29.480 it off yeah yeah of course this is the kind of thing that is going on and if you are used to

00:16:36.580 living in a european level civilization and then all of a sudden your tarmac's getting dug up and

00:16:43.240 your electrical wires are being pulled up i can see why someone would want to leave yeah it's worth

00:16:47.860 remembering that for some populations the future does not exist so another thing he mentions um in

00:16:56.400 this i'll try and find where it is um around here somewhere yes um furthermore the article fails to

00:17:05.860 acknowledge or provide evidence against the very real issue that drove thousands of white South

00:17:10.560 Africans to seek refugee status in the US. Racially discriminatory laws, I've seen evidence that there

00:17:16.860 are more racially discriminatory laws now than there were under apartheid, against white people

00:17:22.900 by the way. Brutal farm murders, the kill the boar, kill the farmer chant that the government refuses

00:17:28.780 to condemn and it reprimanded the new US ambassador to South Africa this week when he declared

00:17:35.380 when he dared, sorry, to condemn it as hate speech

00:17:39.580 because, yeah, obviously they're calling for people to die.

00:17:44.060 In Britain, this would be clear incitement to violence,

00:17:46.480 probably even now.

00:17:48.160 An entire population, no less.

00:17:50.100 Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly.

00:17:52.360 And a government threatening people

00:17:54.940 with confiscation of their property based on race,

00:17:57.380 all these issues remain.

00:17:59.940 And it is true.

00:18:01.060 These are undeniable things.

00:18:02.560 The laws are out there.

00:18:03.580 you can read them but you don't necessarily have to take my word for it I actually interviewed

00:18:09.760 Ernst van Zael the spokesperson for Afroforum very interesting interview quite inspirational

00:18:17.480 really because the things they're going through in South Africa to us seem very extreme but he

00:18:23.920 talks with far more optimism about their future than we do so perhaps it's good to put things

00:18:29.860 into perspective is he one of these sort of cape independence guys or something i don't think so

00:18:34.740 um i don't want to speak for him um but what they have done is they've released uh last year

00:18:41.280 a document just talking about all of the things going on in um south africa and clear evidence

00:18:48.300 for a little bit zoomed in here um but you can it talks about the race-based laws and all sorts

00:18:56.620 the things, all the policies that are targeting white South Africans, talking about their

00:19:01.760 economic and property rights or lack thereof, the open violent rhetoric against them and

00:19:08.740 the evidence of that, the fact that they're trying to marginalise Africana schools as

00:19:14.180 well and suppress their ability to have an education in, say, their own language and

00:19:20.760 things like that, as well as just general political suppression. The evidence is all

00:19:24.560 here you can find this document in the reading list on our website for this podcast so if you

00:19:30.420 want to have a look for tangible evidence here it is we're not making it up also look at some of our

00:19:35.320 old segments there's more than enough evidence there there's some very horrific things that you

00:19:40.800 can see for yourself but you can also just look online here's a non-white South African and he

00:19:49.720 says this is uh his words kill all white colonial settlers in south africa all 4.7 million of them

00:19:57.980 i want them dead one by one um kill all that that group of politicians for their role in upholding

00:20:04.420 whiteness in south africa i want anything anti-black and in the way of true liberation

00:20:09.860 of black people completely annihilated correct me if i'm wrong but did the dutch not arrive in

00:20:15.660 that part of africa first before the bantus yes they did and they're also responsible um along

00:20:23.260 with britain obviously in building it into a functioning civilization that uh the anc quite

00:20:29.860 frankly has run into the ground um and the fact that they're able to live first world lives in a

00:20:37.880 country that's actively hostile to them is just testament to how effective they are as people who

00:20:44.080 uphold civilization and we should view it in those lines people like this guy he's not building

00:20:50.660 civilization he's not building infrastructure is he he had all he knows how to do is is to take

00:20:56.300 things and that's exactly the problem isn't it but um yes i wanted to just draw attention to this

00:21:02.700 because it's a very egregious thing and um you know it's even to the point where um i'm not going

00:21:08.900 to show it but um an attorney was just murdered a white attorney um in broad daylight because of

00:21:15.260 the extent of crime just a white lady murdered in the street outside of a court um that was just a

00:21:22.500 recent thing that happened so yes it's a very real problem uh for white south africans and despite

00:21:28.220 what the media has been saying um there is a problem for them they should be um helped as

00:21:36.500 much as they can and i think that trump's refugee program was a good thing good option there are

00:21:41.160 plenty of people in south africa that are weathering it out and um i have nothing but respect

00:21:45.580 for them great um do we have any of those chatty things no not yet no none of the chatty things

00:21:53.420 right we might as well combine our chatty things because uh yeah yeah works for me oh here we go

00:21:59.460 All right, you need a mouse.

00:22:02.360 Yeah, go on, then.

00:22:03.480 Oh, I did a thing.

00:22:04.640 I'm sorry.

00:22:05.140 Oh, Josh, what have you done?

00:22:06.980 There's a forward button on there.

00:22:08.380 These new mice have buttons on the side.

00:22:11.180 For some reason, they've equipped the office with gamer mice.

00:22:15.160 Oh, yeah, it's got buttons on the side, doesn't it?

00:22:16.800 Yeah.

00:22:17.080 I have to watch out.

00:22:17.500 It's going to say the gamer word.

00:22:18.880 Oh, my.

00:22:21.080 Nothing really stops you normally, does it?

00:22:23.980 All right, okay.

00:22:24.440 So I thought we'd have a chat about Matt Goodwin.

00:22:29.460 oh no it's supposed to be a clever intro there i'm gonna let's try that again so it's more

00:22:36.120 from the top once more from the top so it works for the youtube so i thought we would talk about

00:22:40.860 matt goodwin fuck it right third time this is definitely going to work this time i'm hovering

00:22:48.100 the button right so i thought we would talk about matt goodwin there we go it worked right oh it

00:22:56.040 worked twice it's like buses um yeah so matt goodwin of uh reform fame uh i mean he's currently

00:23:05.540 of reform fame he used to be a writer for hope not hate and um an academic studying the far right

00:23:11.340 containing the far right containing the containing and um infiltrating he also used to sit on

00:23:19.000 anti-islamophobia board meetings and trust meetings with uh nick lowles of hope not hate as

00:23:25.500 well oh well that is important nick lowles has tweeted about this and said why did you not care

00:23:30.700 about the grooming gangs back then matt which despite my disdain for nick lowles is a pretty

00:23:35.540 good question yes that is a very good question broken clocks well indeed so um yes so so he's

00:23:43.700 been doing a little bit of a media tour later lately and he's been sort of going around and

00:23:48.100 you know he did this one on pete mcormack's show uh where he was talking about a whole bunch of

00:23:53.120 stuff um there are some standout moments for me um i mean a big one i mean basically what he's

00:24:00.860 doing in this episode is he is he's is he's coming after the online right people like us

00:24:07.280 and he's coming after the store um and and he's got a whole bunch of contradictory claims in

00:24:13.200 there the main one is that um the store are taking their votes um and also nobody has ever heard of

00:24:19.000 restore sorry like let me just get you straight here right dan you're telling me that noted

00:24:26.780 containment expert matt goodwin yes attacking everyone to the right of him yes yes um very

00:24:34.320 interesting um there was there was one i mean i i'll take you through some of the arguments and

00:24:39.320 some of the clips um shortly but i mean this one just stood out for me and this is this is why i

00:24:43.920 named um the episode after it but he he had basically spent um you know 10 minutes at this

00:24:50.340 point basically explaining why young people can't get anything they want uh because we need to we

00:24:56.040 need to appease the um low salience um boomer voters um by low salience in this case i just

00:25:03.360 mean people who pay very little so if you're if you're watching this you are a high salient voter

00:25:07.440 you engage in politics regularly uh to the point where you watch podcasts on perhaps a daily basis

00:25:13.660 about the subject um but what they really want is they want the people because it's a bigger number

00:25:18.820 uh the people who pay attention to politics maybe once a month if that maybe around election times

00:25:26.060 and for whatever reason reformer got themselves into the case where they think that they need to

00:25:32.240 actively push away the active online right um in favor of the um the occasional voter and that's

00:25:39.960 probably why they have all of these sort of bingo hall aesthetics yes i've been seeing for a very

00:25:45.000 long time it's sort of like oh you know do you like cruises do you like going to the bingo do

00:25:50.680 you like collecting your pension vote for reform yes it's very targeted on a demographic that i am

00:25:56.800 not but one of the um consistent things like you're saying is him attacking the online writers

00:26:02.500 basically people who he's implying have never been outside they've never spoken to a voter before

00:26:08.200 but the thing is in matt's own ground game for gorton and denton it was terrible well that video

00:26:15.800 of him where he's going like um keir starmer's a robot where he sounds like alan partridge yeah

00:26:22.100 it was the most partridge thing i've seen outside of an actual alan partridge show right and as well

00:26:27.920 where he's doing the the uh boomer face angle for his camera phone and he's going like so we're

00:26:33.740 outside and it's absolutely chucking it down out here but we're still knocking on doors oh my

00:26:39.860 goodness can you believe it aha no i can't i can't believe that you go outside actually matt

00:26:45.180 well the thing is he attacks people being online but he's on more he's more online than the rest

00:26:49.600 of us if you look at his tweeting you know he's i mean he's not quite elon level he's pretty close

00:26:54.180 well you know when you're feeding all of your tweets through llms well yes it makes it very

00:26:59.180 easy to tweet a lot it speeds it up but anyway so on on Pete McCormack's show he's got he's got

00:27:05.100 this good dynamic where he's got his son who who doesn't say a lot but when he chips in he just

00:27:10.600 goes straight to the straight to the hub of it because because Pete's kind of going for precision

00:27:14.880 and Matt's going for evasion and then Connor his son is just doing compression so so the first clip

00:27:21.080 i'll play you is uh this one a little abyss and think you're going to change the country by

00:27:28.900 becoming ever more extreme because the person you have to win over is not the 21 year old

00:27:33.120 the person you have to win over is the 55 year old average voter in tamworth or in any other

00:27:38.300 swing seat and i can tell you if you go and knock on their door and you say look i'm so angry with

00:27:42.420 this country my main policy offering here is mass deportations i guarantee you those people

00:27:49.060 you'll meet some people who will say oh yeah that sounds okay but then those people are

00:27:53.640 almost certainly not they're already going to be voting for the party that happens to be leading

00:27:57.700 in the national opinion polls but you'll get a lot of more other people who are simply going

00:28:01.260 to close the door in your face and say that shit sounds extreme so is reform just giving up on the

00:28:06.580 20 year olds no because they're more they care more about the 55 year old i i am every reform

00:28:14.200 i was in milton keen's last so anyway then he blusters and bumbles because he can't give it

00:28:18.200 but i mean kind of cuts it straight to the heart of it there which is you've just spent 20 minutes

00:28:22.920 telling us that you can't give young people anything they want and also there's the the

00:28:27.960 false claim that young people want deportations and old people don't which is not there were

00:28:35.320 i mean there will be plenty of boomers in the comments saying i want i want the deportations

00:28:39.560 as well yeah what about all silly all of the disenfranchised voters who've just clocked out

00:28:44.120 up for the past 30 years since Blair yes well no no they did come back for the Brexit referendum

00:28:50.720 because they finally thought they were this was something that could make a difference so they

00:28:55.760 showed up for that they completely changed the outcome everybody thought it was a lock all the

00:29:00.320 betting sites all the political parties thought that Brexit was an absolute lock for Remain

00:29:04.880 the um the the voters the sort of voters who have basically opted out came back in changed politics

00:29:12.680 and then ever since then all the political parties have been like yeah we are going to ignore that

00:29:17.800 game-changing block forever and we're just going to haggle over the center ground the

00:29:22.640 media voter not just ignore them stab them in the back actively betray yes actively betray them at

00:29:28.440 all times um and and this is just one of many exchanges that i don't think really went matt's

00:29:35.080 way because i mean you know pete's in our sphere but he's he's a little bit um he's not at the

00:29:42.120 front of the curve on some of this stuff so this is a relatively friendly i mean i mean he's very

00:29:48.780 friendly with matt goodwin um but it definitely did not go the way that matt was sort of hoping

00:29:54.240 it to and you can kind of tell the the discussion that pete and his son had afterwards because then

00:29:58.580 he comes out with this you know the online leads the offline lose the online right and you'll

00:30:03.280 eventually lose the offline right um same for the left but i mean it's i mean this is this is

00:30:09.320 ultimately the problem everybody's online these days you know my parents are online and they're

00:30:13.980 in their 70s well this is a problem with the idea of simulacrum because it it is both true and

00:30:22.240 untrue at the same time that the online world is its own little closed off community it has those

00:30:28.200 aspects to it and it is easy to fall into echo chambers but ultimately at the same time behind

00:30:33.560 every tiny little profile picture you're looking at except for the ones that are obviously bots

00:30:38.860 right let's not discount that bots exist but most of them are going to be real people behind those

00:30:46.320 right and those real people also live in the real world with the rest of us yes we live in the real

00:30:53.260 world and there is an influence that goes out to the rest of the real world as well all of the

00:30:58.320 views on youtube aren't just numbers they are people well if anything so there is an influence

00:31:04.080 there so if matt goodwin wants to attack the online right by he will also by dint of doing

00:31:09.000 that be attacking the audiences of these people oh yes that's exactly what he's doing yeah well

00:31:14.020 at the same time people that come from you know the podcasting world normally are more normal

00:31:20.960 people than the sw1 people that are constantly connected to one another and live in their own

00:31:27.380 little bubbles like most podcasters got into podcasting particularly political podcasting

00:31:33.260 because they felt like something was unaddressed.

00:31:36.580 I've spoke to many people, I'm sure you have as well.

00:31:39.160 I mean, it's the reason probably both of us are here.

00:31:41.480 That's why we're here.

00:31:42.180 Exactly.

00:31:42.920 You know, I left academia to be here

00:31:44.960 because I saw the problems unaddressed in politics

00:31:47.680 as being more important.

00:31:49.600 So if there is a pull from the real world

00:31:53.660 to the online world

00:31:54.800 when problems aren't becoming addressed,

00:31:59.240 presumably that would also translate to, you know,

00:32:01.740 some of the most dedicated voters the people that care the most being those online those that are

00:32:07.740 most likely to show up those most likely to be activists that that is the exactly the mistake

00:32:11.880 that matt goodwin and so i don't know if this is matt goodwin's mistake whether he truly believes

00:32:17.280 it but i mean certainly nigel fraud he hates the online right he absolutely hates them so whether

00:32:22.580 matt goodwin is just picking that up and running with it and trying to intellectualize it but a

00:32:26.180 part of what goodwin's trying to do in this interview and other interviews is basically

00:32:29.840 separate our audience from us now how do you believe that it fundamentally works do you believe

00:32:35.960 that the reason people watch us is because they don't have their own opinions and then we give

00:32:41.880 them an opinion and they're like oh good enough I'll take that or is it and I'm pretty sure it is

00:32:47.040 this because I've seen comments over the years that say this like a million times people what

00:32:52.140 they actually say is you've articulated something that I was thinking but they're busy doing their

00:32:57.740 office job and they know that something's not right and they got pieces of it together and

00:33:01.120 then because we think about it all the time we we we articulate it in a way that resonates for them

00:33:05.980 and that's why they watch us that's exactly it yes yeah there's no way it could be anything else

00:33:10.140 yes one one last thing before we move on uh to your next link as well is that i think one of

00:33:14.980 the big problems that reform has had over the past few months with their messaging is that

00:33:19.020 after basically leading the polls all year last year they thought that they had it locked in for

00:33:25.280 2029 and believed that those polls were guaranteed numbers and that those voters would stick to them

00:33:30.880 no matter what which made more sense when they didn't have competition from their right like

00:33:35.700 restore has become uh but they're still in we're winning lads mode well and they've decided that

00:33:43.400 the best way to take on attacks from their right is not to address them and not to try to actually

00:33:50.800 improve their policies or their messaging somewhat but instead to just attack attack attack attack

00:33:56.240 and pretend as though the polls aren't turning around and in fact the polls have turned around

00:34:00.960 a little bit uh kirk starmer of all people has started to get better numbers in the poll

00:34:05.880 polls recently probably because of his um handling of the iran conflict i would say so yeah

00:34:10.260 and as a as a result there's just a kind of like sulky whininess coming from there was a lot of

00:34:16.420 They're attacking from the left as well towards Restore, which is a really terrible strategy because actually most people in Reform, I think, are sympathetic to the arguments that Restore are making.

00:34:28.840 Most people who support Reform think that they're going to do the things that Restore are going to do.

00:34:35.140 They don't realise that Reform have explicitly ruled out a whole bunch of stuff.

00:34:39.120 like well they're also the messaging is a bit schizophrenic in that you'll have matt goodwin

00:34:44.140 and nigel farage saying no mass deportations no no no that's bad that's a political impossibility

00:34:49.360 but then you'll have zaya yusuf saying we're going to do mass deportations we're going to

00:34:53.780 reverse the boris that is literally the reason why they kick rupert low out i know yeah well

00:34:58.020 it's also contradictory within the same people because i'll get onto it in my next segment but

00:35:02.760 matt goodwin is like you can't campaign on mass deportations you can't campaign on any of these

00:35:08.660 things and then at the same time will release a book called suicide of a nation where he's

00:35:13.800 complaining about mass demographic change i've got a bit of that there's one more link that i

00:35:17.800 want to play you another bit where he just fell completely flat on his face and that was when

00:35:21.720 pete asked him okay well what is british then uh be given as much respect if they decide to go into

00:35:27.140 the trades as if they decide to go into university that um they are uh treated with decency and

00:35:34.760 fairness in a country that puts them first unequivocally and unashamedly what is them

00:35:40.040 like puts them like you've talked about putting the british people first is it the british people

00:35:44.280 is the english people it's a conversation i find even uncomfortable but like what is them first

00:35:49.320 well people who belong to this country who are tax-paying law-abiding british citizens

00:35:53.800 and prioritizing them in everything that we do but what if it's a you know british muslim who's a

00:35:58.680 so basically the answer he gives is as long as you've got a bit of paper

00:36:02.400 as long as he has said isn't the definition of british in the past as well so he's just

00:36:08.860 contradicting which whole schizophrenic point is if tony blair or boris johnson gave you a piece of

00:36:13.360 paper well you're british then um and and look ultimately what is reform reform is a mechanism

00:36:20.840 to prevent remigration it's it's blocking the space that should be filled by a remigration

00:36:26.800 party that's ultimately what it is and actually you sent me a brilliant link when you when you

00:36:30.700 heard i was doing this um i mean this just absolutely lands the point

00:36:36.100 and you know when i was campaigning on the streets one thing that i was thinking about because

00:36:42.840 at the time we had a bit of online hurrah about you know new parties being formed and all the

00:36:49.020 rest of it i was thinking how utterly absurd it would be to watch some of those people campaign

00:36:54.560 in gorton and denton right knock on the door boom boom boom hello where are you from oh um

00:37:00.860 i'm from uh i'm from restore all right what do you believe um yeah you should be deported

00:37:06.140 we believe in mass deportations oh oh right oh what what else do you believe we believe in

00:37:12.980 remigration oh what what's that let me tell you something it's completely divorced from political

00:37:19.120 reality the people who are pushing those ideas have never canvassed have never campaigned have

00:37:24.340 never spent a serious amount of time with the british people the idea of political failure

00:37:30.040 and national embarrassment matthew goodwin insulting somebody else's political ground game

00:37:37.440 going out canvassing that's absurd but i mean he's telling you here this this is the point of reform

00:37:44.160 it's to prevent re-migration from taking place and you've got to remember i mean we made this

00:37:48.780 point earlier the reason that faraj has now admitted the reason that rupert lowe was kicked

00:37:54.260 out of reform was because he started talking about deporting the grooming gang communities

00:37:59.220 not just not just the individual grooming gangs which maybe reform will pretend that they might

00:38:04.440 do at some point but the whole communities who knew it was going on and that was considered so

00:38:09.580 extreme not only did they sack him but they made up criminal allegations against him to try and get

00:38:15.560 him jailed that that is what reform is for this is so tone deaf to the mood of the public as well

00:38:23.460 like it's to the point where we can be walking down the street and people recognize us and we

00:38:28.620 talk about mass deportations all day so these british people are just not british or something

00:38:32.920 like they're just not real they're not a real voting bloc of course they are and in fact it's

00:38:38.220 got to the point now where even some left-wing people on lots of other issues are sympathetic

00:38:42.960 to the idea of deporting large numbers of people yeah like it's it's got to the point now where

00:38:48.680 i can basically start talking politics to any white person in this country and if it comes to

00:38:55.580 immigration and i talk to them about my ideas of who should be deported i've never had someone

00:39:01.180 disagree with me ever i talk to a lot of people as well and it's it's just absurd like this is

00:39:08.140 probably the most popular policy in britain at the minute is deporting the one and the purpose

00:39:14.080 of reform is to stop it well just uh just my own little anecdote there um a few weeks ago i was at

00:39:21.140 the pub and ran into a guy i'd not seen in a few um maybe a year or two uh really and he told me

00:39:28.260 that he was voting green at the next election as far as things are going right now he sees green

00:39:33.580 as the viable like anti-establishment because he considered himself anti-establishment

00:39:38.080 at the same time he said that he'd found my twitter account and i was like oh god here we go

00:39:44.800 and he said he didn't disagree with anything i said on it not a clear overlap with green policy

00:39:51.040 there no there isn't but that's the thing is that young white voters relatively young i'm not so

00:39:58.180 much of a spring chicken myself anymore frankly you me both but relatively young white voters

00:40:03.100 can be flipped rather easily

00:40:05.560 because what they're looking for

00:40:07.260 is anti-establishment.

00:40:08.480 What they're looking for

00:40:09.220 is something outside of the UN party.

00:40:09.640 So green is legitimately

00:40:10.640 anti-establishment

00:40:11.600 and the only other one is restore.

00:40:13.020 But one of them is sane

00:40:13.900 and one of them is batshit.

00:40:15.400 Yes.

00:40:16.940 So we know what reform

00:40:18.600 really cares about

00:40:19.640 is stopping re-migration.

00:40:21.160 This is Matt pretending to care

00:40:23.020 about careers of people

00:40:25.620 who he doesn't like.

00:40:28.920 And I feel very, very sorry

00:40:30.500 if I can just lastly say

00:40:31.860 I feel very sorry about the young activists between the ages of maybe 18 and 30 who have

00:40:40.160 just wrecked their political careers by going down this cul-de-sac. They could have been really

00:40:44.980 interesting, important people in our country's history. They could have been really significant

00:40:50.120 people. And because they became detached from political reality, they've lost all relevance.

00:40:59.200 that seemed like an attack explicitly on connor to be honest it's quite possibly threat is what

00:41:05.500 it does as well because in in in that equation that he's laid out he's just like said it like

00:41:10.080 political reality is some floating abstract thing and not really what he's talking about

00:41:16.280 is the preferred politics of the m25 gang yeah and we're expected to believe five minutes after

00:41:21.420 he lost a uh by-election um for stalling his political career to the point where danny kruger

00:41:27.560 went on tv the day after and was sort of floating the idea of basically chucking out the party

00:41:34.120 we expected to believe that he's deeply concerned about connor's political career rather than his

00:41:38.680 own i don't think it was danny krueger it was um the other one oh i forget now yeah but one

00:41:45.480 i either way former tories it's difficult to yeah either way i know the one that you're on about

00:41:50.840 but yeah like basically he's saying oh you better what better worry about your career better watch

00:41:55.320 out for your career talking about that sort of stuff well the thing is there has to be people

00:41:59.280 gatekeeping the careers right so is that you and your buddy matt you and your buddies oh yes it is

00:42:05.320 that's what it is matt that's a threat i mean if you want to do your part to ruin your career

00:42:09.700 a good way to do it would be to come to our live event um that is on the 11th yes on the 11th of

00:42:16.460 april uh we're having a a live event so you can come along and you can um watch us talk and also

00:42:23.840 you can talk to us but back to goodwin's point yes the the idea that the genuine right as i'm

00:42:32.500 going to call it i know that's a little bit loaded but i don't care that's how i see it

00:42:36.540 the genuine right the people who actually believe what they're saying and have the courage of their

00:42:41.820 convictions i think people are so aware of politicians lying and people in the political

00:42:47.500 sphere lying that people seek that out and there's always going to be people supporting them you know

00:42:53.060 this platform wouldn't exist if the audience didn't believe that we were saying what we

00:42:58.780 actually truly believed and of course why wouldn't we we're not politicians but this is good it

00:43:05.120 breeds a stock of people who by disposition are honest with people and communicate their

00:43:11.800 convictions in a truly heartfelt way that's what we want in politics it all comes back to how you

00:43:18.180 think the political system works so so matt in this series of interviews he's been doing he's

00:43:23.940 basically of the view that it is party sends a message to the media and the media sends a

00:43:29.820 message to the voters and that is how opinions are formed whereas we think no actually there's

00:43:35.120 a network um and a narrative is created and that goes to the voters and then that goes to the

00:43:40.780 parties and people are actually looking i mean his model probably did work in the 80s when there's

00:43:45.200 there are like two different parties that you could choose from you know they they would set

00:43:48.020 the nav to you but it doesn't work that way around anymore and he spends the whole time basically i

00:43:53.220 mean the whole series of interviews that he's doing is a series of essentially gatekeeping

00:43:57.740 what he's trying to do is to say if you are a watcher of the online right lotus eaters or or

00:44:03.200 whoever it is you need to disassociate yourself from them because they're not serious only i

00:44:08.720 understand how politics really works and he goes into this a bit here and this is essentially the

00:44:13.020 core intellectual justification that he has for the position that he's got there was an

00:44:17.500 anti-establishment political party once upon a time and it was full of ordinary people it was

00:44:22.700 full of plumbers farmers electricians workers people with the green people with very little

00:44:29.680 political experience and it captivated the mood of the country and it took off in the polling

00:44:35.060 and it did really really well at a national legislative election okay was considered to be

00:44:42.060 the first real populist movement in post-war Europe.

00:44:46.320 And that movement was the French Pugetist movement.

00:44:50.980 Anyway, cut a long story short, it didn't really work out for them.

00:44:54.640 But this is the core of the whole thing.

00:44:56.680 You need to have people who are academics who have studied these things,

00:45:02.120 former Tories, but essentially the establishment politics,

00:45:05.820 it's made up all of lawyers and former journalists.

00:45:09.820 That's essentially what you get in the House of Commons.

00:45:12.060 and apparently if you're a lawyer or a journalist or a former spad then that that then entitles you

00:45:19.620 to then leap into the political realm and you're now a serious person you can get things done

00:45:23.460 although quite evidently we've been doing that system for whatever it is 30 years since serious

00:45:28.100 people since since generals and businessmen and other sort of leaders stopped going into parliament

00:45:33.540 whenever it was in the 80s or 70s now it's just lawyers and journalists apparently they are serious

00:45:39.720 people but restore are not going to be that and he compares it to this sort of tradesman party in

00:45:46.840 in in france thing is that's not exactly what rupert lowe is going for he he's looking for

00:45:53.320 capable people who have actually done something in the real world i don't see why somebody who

00:45:58.320 has successfully run a business or built something or operated something those are the kind of people

00:46:04.100 that you actually need and and this thing where you know it's only going to be academic lawyers

00:46:08.520 and journalists is well i mean that that is his core argument that's that's what everything comes

00:46:14.320 back to um the other argument he makes let me see 106 22 let me just find this

00:46:21.740 there you go yeah oh okay he's close enough whatever

00:46:27.480 cool um sophistication and the grasp of political reality i'm gonna go out on a limb and just

00:46:35.640 irritate a lot of people, but you have what I see further to the right of reform, which is a lot of

00:46:40.180 people who on the one hand care deeply about Britain. I know quite a lot of them, I think,

00:46:45.060 because they've been involved in and around my writing community for a while. I understand

00:46:49.140 why they've got to the point they've got to. Well, why is that? I mean, let's say

00:46:52.900 clearly, we're talking about people who've moved from reform to restore. Yeah. I think a lot of

00:46:58.020 those people, I think they want something that is even more radical than the program that is

00:47:05.200 being offered by a party that happens to be number one in the opinion party i mean let's just tackle

00:47:11.100 that um restores version of radical is nothing more than what everybody of every political

00:47:18.920 persuasion would have considered normal 20 30 years ago and there's also what reform's own

00:47:24.400 voter base many of their activists and yeah it's what they want isn't it it's what they think

00:47:29.540 reform is going to do and he is describing that as radical you have to be so within the westminster

00:47:34.580 a bubble to think that what restore is proposing is radical he's only radical if you're within that

00:47:40.980 sort of narrow bubble but again i mean this is i mean i'm just playing a short clip here

00:47:45.120 he keeps on hammering this point detached from reality lack of sophistication basically you guys

00:47:51.240 don't know what you're doing it has to be somebody like me i'm the only one who really understands

00:47:56.500 this stuff um and and you can't have anything you want basically so he's he's just gatekeeping

00:48:02.100 we've never written an ai book um used we've got that coming up quotes and you know i've not lost

00:48:08.500 to a cbb's presenter yes um it's absurd like he's a political failure now right and he's never

00:48:15.960 coming back from this like he's getting attacked from both the left and the right and even some

00:48:21.260 people that previously supported him i think it was bull david bull was oh yes that you're right

00:48:26.660 out of reform that's or at least intimated right now that clip i showed you earlier where he did

00:48:32.040 his little sketch that he's obviously been practicing them in the mirror the one about

00:48:36.420 knocking on on a door if you're a storm oh not the first one where he goes aha no not that one

00:48:42.600 um but um yeah that that one where um was it winston marshall found that absolutely hilarious

00:48:48.200 was falling all over the place so so matt at this point in this stage of the interview he breaks out

00:48:53.240 his killer gag routine expecting to see pete and and his son connor absolutely falling all over the

00:48:59.920 place of laughter like winston did didn't go down quite the same so how how does this go let's just

00:49:05.100 work because i knocked on 7 000 doors okay myself so how does this go okay hi um i'm from i'm from

00:49:11.980 store oh not heard of you what's your policy mass deportations oh oh right okay that's that's quite

00:49:20.900 hard what do you mean we just want all these people out who well you know um people who aren't

00:49:28.880 part of us we want re-migration you want what re-migration what's that that's where we basically

00:49:33.920 force everybody out and oh right okay that sounds quite extreme to me that sounds quite actually

00:49:38.640 that that sounds pretty nuts to me i don't think you framed it how they've been framing it though

00:49:41.920 that's exactly what people have been saying online and then people online or the people

00:49:45.520 from the party people who are claiming to lead i mean poor matt that was his killer line

00:49:49.340 everything's building up to this moment like it's such an absurdity just like yes i'm from a store

00:49:56.300 they've got more policies than that for a start and also rather than just saying you know just

00:50:01.240 repeating the words at them they could be like yes all people who've come here illegally all

00:50:05.780 criminals um all people who aren't contributing financially to the country who wants it's just

00:50:11.620 like do you want to pay for foreigners to come here and be financially dependent do you want

00:50:15.640 criminals here like any sane person is going to be like okay that sounds quite reasonable and

00:50:20.940 that's their policies right Matt's framing it like because Steve Laws has put out a few positive

00:50:25.880 tweets about Restore that he's the one coming up with party messaging he's not the one choosing

00:50:32.200 how they're going to spin the rhetoric and I'm sure that there's going to be a lot of careful

00:50:37.920 consideration how they're going to present it to people I wonder if the difference does Matt

00:50:42.780 goodwin have children does does winston marshall maybe maybe that's the reason it lands with them

00:50:48.120 but the reason it doesn't land with pete is like i mean pete's pete's my age and i'm seeing pete's

00:50:53.740 house is a is a is a is a nice house and people like us me him and carl um we can probably get

00:50:59.920 through it we couldn't we could work from home live in our nice houses in the nice part of town

00:51:04.480 um we we could we could probably get through this the next 30 years won't be fun but as soon as you

00:51:10.360 introduce the element of no actually shit we've got children suddenly there is there is literally

00:51:16.160 no way of getting around this and i suspect that's the difference as to why this line didn't land here

00:51:20.740 i've got a couple more to set up the the key distinction um so so he let me let's just hear

00:51:27.820 him telling us about how extreme restore is what i see happening around restore again people who

00:51:33.640 might say they would be open to voting for that movement i'm not making a judgment about those

00:51:38.140 people but the people i see trying to organize that political movement are too extreme are too

00:51:43.440 strident are detached from political reality do not understand what and how the average voter

00:51:48.720 really thinks um and have made have been very sloppy with their language um and have insufficient

00:51:57.300 political experience was called extreme right but i'm saying the stuff that's going on over here is

00:52:02.700 batshit crazy british people british people will never ever ever get behind uh restore in a big

00:52:10.740 way it will never happen what will happen is it will be 1979 and it will be standing 300 okay

00:52:16.660 so pretty clear restore is completely extreme utterly radical can't be trusted it's nuts it's

00:52:24.400 mental it's out there um so let's jump to this bit uh where he tells us they got the same policies as

00:52:30.040 them

00:52:32.700 no my mouse control is off to get the boomer mouse out for dan illegal migrants that they

00:52:43.360 want to remove first okay well that's reformed policy so what's the difference well i i don't

00:52:47.100 know if there is a huge difference but this is why so he pivots effortlessly from these guys

00:52:51.840 who are a bunch of extreme radicals to what there's no difference in policy this is why i'd

00:52:56.480 like us to have this conversation because i think there are lots of people who are being led into a

00:52:59.600 cul-de-sac and there's also a lot of people i would say who are also um speaking in very strident

00:53:07.360 terms here's something else well should we just do this because rather than me this is this is

00:53:11.200 their point the boris wave must be reversed and the asylum system must be abolished okay that's

00:53:14.960 the annual depart oh hang on a second that's reform policy yeah the annual departure of

00:53:18.440 legal migrants must at least double millions of foreign nationals cannot speak english live in

00:53:23.480 social housing claim benefits refuse work break our laws or fail to integrate should go home

00:53:27.080 and for the seeable future significantly more must leave than enter a lot a lot of that a lot

00:53:34.140 of the policies that you've just read out but do you disagree with any of that list i think a lot

00:53:37.580 of it's quite vague and i think it would be very easy for restores political enemies to point out

00:53:42.120 how no how evasive he is it's ridiculous as well because reform considering they're ahead in the

00:53:48.940 national polls you think they've got enough money to write some policy they've hardly got any

00:53:52.600 and the policies they do have you know depending on who you're hearing it from either they support

00:53:57.060 it or not like it is a ridiculous criticism to be honest because i don't really know what anyone

00:54:03.320 in reform stands for other than enriching themselves at the expense of the british well

00:54:07.040 he would simultaneously have you believe that they hold that the store policies and reform

00:54:12.200 policies are the same policies but what is it what so what is he saying that the presentation

00:54:17.560 that the store have got make them completely unelectable and i mean i mean i know he keeps

00:54:23.100 telling us that we don't know what we're doing and he's the only true political mastermind here

00:54:26.700 but that is a contradiction you could drive a bus through so there is that i mean he's he's tried

00:54:33.740 his his hand at politics and he's failed you know with the book and his failure in the election it's

00:54:39.080 over for him and look ultimately is over oh ultimately it comes down to this if he is trying

00:54:44.100 to hoodwink us into believing that the policy set is actually the same it's just the presentation

00:54:48.300 is different well reform don't have the credibility on any of this stuff you know we have we have had

00:54:54.620 how many years of Tory governments who promised us one thing and then did the precise opposite,

00:55:02.780 there's a credibility gap. And when he's throwing people out of the party for advocating for

00:55:06.700 remigration, I'm sorry, Matt, but you haven't got any credibility.

00:55:10.880 Well, yeah, that's the ultimate thing that will tank his career going forward. Not only does he

00:55:15.640 have no credibility, but also given what we know about his background, his academic background in

00:55:21.380 writing on populism and how to contain it he has no there's not a feeling of sincerity from him he

00:55:27.520 comes across incredibly insincere and if you've got no credibility and people don't believe what

00:55:32.280 you're saying then nobody will trust you going forward why don't you tell us about his writing

00:55:36.900 well we can do that right now if you want to move on to the next segment please samson

00:55:40.980 a good wind sandwich well if you do want something that is uh presented by people who

00:55:48.820 are sincere and i would like to think have some credibility behind us at the very least you can

00:55:53.640 come to attend our live show on the 11th of april tickets are still available so get them whilst you

00:55:59.860 still can it's in swindon from 7 till 10 and there's going to be a lot of fun so we'll see

00:56:05.340 you there so speaking of matt goodwin's credibility and sincerity he has a new book out which has been

00:56:11.920 the center of some controversy some controversy i must say as well that has brought elements of

00:56:17.120 the left who would oppose matt goodwin and the right who disagree with matt goodwin and even

00:56:22.660 frankly elements of the center right who you would expect to back matt goodwin all together

00:56:28.040 so that they can all simultaneously throw him under the bus for some frankly astonishingly poor

00:56:34.180 academic and research work and that is all centered around this new book suicide of a nation

00:56:39.820 immigration islam identity if there's things about this book cover and the name of it and the sub

00:56:47.640 heading that strike you as somewhat familiar i will mention that so you can see right here

00:56:51.900 straight away there's something of a war going on in the customer ratings which is that it is not

00:57:00.400 evenly but it is almost completely split between one star reviews and five star when you say evenly

00:57:07.780 split there are twice as many not evenly split at all but it's people are going one way or the

00:57:13.940 other it's very very polarizing that's because there are going to be people giving it five star

00:57:17.720 who just won't probably have even read it but will say that it's great just because hey i'm

00:57:22.880 going to support this guy for political reasons and one star from people probably doing the same

00:57:27.600 thing but frankly the one stars have a bit more evidence backing them up and again whether you

00:57:33.960 whatever you want to say about the originality of it people are already pointing out that it

00:57:38.260 basically seems to be a rehash of the strange death of europe by douglas murray from about

00:57:43.140 eight or seven eight or nine years the thing is though douglas murray is actually quite talented

00:57:47.380 yes whatever else you want to say about douglas murray being um you know half measure a massive

00:57:53.180 zionist or whatever the strange death of europe is a very well written book it's well researched

00:57:59.660 and well argued and this seems to be rehashing the same ground even if strange death of europe

00:58:04.460 is probably at this point somewhat outdated because it is a pre-boris wave book but you can

00:58:08.900 see that he's nicked immigration identity and islam and the cover of the book itself seems to

00:58:14.200 be a strange mash-up of andrew doyle's end of woke alongside the abolition of britain by peter

00:58:20.540 hitchens so the book already is showing a complete lack of originality which is something that's

00:58:26.900 probably going to hurt its credibility with a lot of readers to begin with whether or not matt wants

00:58:31.380 to say that it was all done as homage the whole thing that all of that's to do with homaging these

00:58:37.320 various different authors and works from over the years people aren't seeing that right now which is

00:58:42.640 especially compounded with this which is uh that he has posted an extract from the book quote they

00:58:50.620 don't want you to read which who is they yourself well now in the top three of all books on amazon

00:58:57.720 obviously it's the the loony left the wokists the book publishers because this is a self-published

00:59:04.460 book through an organization i believe called northwest which is a self-publishing company

00:59:10.620 that he didn't want to go through big publishers because they would have just censored him well

00:59:15.600 there's an interesting incentive here for him to self-publish as well is that he can get a larger

00:59:19.960 share of the profits rather than a larger readership but a smaller share of the profits

00:59:25.280 if he went through a named book publisher i'm sure he could have if he wanted to which is an

00:59:31.080 interesting published his previous two books were published with penguin well there we go so he has

00:59:36.960 those connections if he wants but there might be a little bit of a problem which is that in recent

00:59:41.940 court cases i think there was a landmark case that went through just a couple of months ago

00:59:45.940 um book publishers have started to pull back books pull off the shelves or just not publish

00:59:53.260 anything which is suspected heavily suspected of having a decent portion of it written by

00:59:59.060 ai generated by an lll i was going to say the reason why i think making it a publisher makes

01:00:05.480 sense is because they have editors and they're generally quite helpful but that does help that

01:00:11.200 does help but it helps also having uh say an llm checking your homework but yeah we wouldn't need

01:00:16.880 editors if if it's all let me just read this excerpt for you from the opening and tell me if

01:00:21.480 it sets off any alarm bells in the style of language used and the way that it's composing

01:00:27.680 its points and arguments there are moments in life of a name sorry there are moments in the

01:00:33.760 life of a nation when everything changes not with a bang not even with a conscious decision

01:00:39.360 but with a quiet, creeping loss of confidence so profound

01:00:43.380 that a people start to forget who they are.

01:00:47.160 My alarm bell's already ringing.

01:00:49.520 The use of quiet there is often used by ChatGPT

01:00:52.460 and also the rule of free, and also it's not even.

01:00:58.060 That's another one that it does.

01:00:59.700 I see this all the time on X, so I'm sort of radicalised.

01:01:02.360 It's also this, which is the use of a single longer sentence

01:01:06.160 as a discrete paragraph followed by a much shorter sentence

01:01:10.800 as a separate paragraph immediately after as an A-B-1-2 hit

01:01:16.540 because he follows that up with

01:01:18.000 Britain, I believe, is living through such a moment.

01:01:22.380 For decades, the institutions that once embodied our nation,

01:01:25.680 Parliament, the civil service, the courts, the police, the BBC,

01:01:28.980 there's lots of just repetition and listing things.

01:01:31.840 They've all drifted away from the public they exist to serve.

01:01:34.660 and you are absolutely right frankly this smacks one of kind of rehashing the same tone and talking

01:01:42.440 points again of strange death of europe because he's constantly banging on in that book about how

01:01:48.500 tired he is and how tired europe is so it's kind of going through that same uh linguistic device

01:01:56.380 but also yeah this smacks to me of chat gpt you see this all over the place on twitter when you

01:02:03.620 have these long paragraphs and long essays written up from accounts that post like 15 plus times a

01:02:11.460 day where it's like how have you got the time to write all of this and it's structured in such a

01:02:16.400 way that reminds me of this and you know that it's an llm has generated it can i just ask i just went

01:02:21.220 into chat gpt and i said write the opening page of a book i want to write called suicide of a nation

01:02:26.060 immigration islam and identity and it's just done all of the things that you said a single long

01:02:31.560 sentence as an opening paragraph then it's done as short line and then it's i mean it's oh read

01:02:35.960 it to us yeah yeah go on go on let's compare um uh you want us to ghost right before you matt

01:02:42.640 goodwin we've got our best man on the case chat gp there's no declaration no formal surrender no

01:02:48.200 moment at which a leader stands at the podium and admits we have chosen already you can you can hear

01:02:53.020 the rhythm it's got a rhythm to it we have chosen not to continue as we were instead decline arise

01:02:59.560 disguised the progress as compassion as inevitability um what makes this form on the

01:03:05.340 second line now what makes this form of decline distinct is not that it imposed from without but

01:03:09.640 it is chosen from within maybe it was the delivery but i actually preferred that to the actual good

01:03:14.700 oh right well i'll write one as well then it's hitting all the same points yes isn't it and you

01:03:20.080 can sense the rhythm now that is not definitive proof that he used an llm to generate this or

01:03:27.840 even that uh that he used an llm to help research him well actually there is definitive proof of

01:03:34.480 that well no i'm going to get on to the proof sorry sorry as we go along which is where we're

01:03:39.940 going to get on to right now in fact i do people are bloody good at spotting this stuff because i

01:03:45.380 once wrote a long tweet and i because i like doing it where you don't have to click more

01:03:51.360 so it's in the compact form and i was like a line or two over and i couldn't really be bothered so

01:03:56.520 I just stuck it in ChatGPT and I said, just reduce this 15% so it fits within a tweet.

01:04:00.940 And it reduced it.

01:04:02.660 So I thought, yeah, good enough.

01:04:03.480 So I copied and pasted it back and put it in.

01:04:05.840 But everyone instantly, and I think I had actually written it, it compressed it.

01:04:10.060 But when it had been compressed, people could spot that it was from ChatGPT.

01:04:13.580 And people went bloody mental at me.

01:04:16.060 And I was like, okay, I'm not ever doing that again.

01:04:17.740 Again, it's got a particular rhythm and form to the way that it writes things that once you've seen it, you can't unsee it.

01:04:26.020 and you will see it everywhere all over twitter particularly shall we say policy wonk twitter

01:04:32.500 use it constantly and there are other telltale signs as catalogued by this man andy twelves who

01:04:39.540 i believe he writes for the new statesman and politics joe so he is on the other side of the

01:04:45.180 aisle politically he is left wing but frankly he seems to have done some good work here catching

01:04:50.840 out all of the times in which, as he states here, there are what appear to be false quotes and basic

01:04:56.660 misinterpretations of data, which appear to be AI hallucinations. So first of all, he goes through

01:05:03.480 some data which seems to have just been fabricated out of thin air. Claim one, in one year one

01:05:09.640 classroom in Bradford, only four of 28 pupils spoke English as their first language. Teachers

01:05:15.320 report spending large amounts of time simply mediating between dozens of languages making

01:05:19.560 normal teaching almost impossible and slowing down the rate of progress for everybody reality

01:05:24.340 i cannot find any evidence of this claim at all i checked local and national news and his own x page

01:05:29.920 i believe from the lack of referencing and the way that it's written to be an ai

01:05:34.800 why didn't he just have a look at the footnotes because that is there's only 12 in the entire

01:05:39.980 book and they're heavily weighted towards the start as it as in he wrote most most of them are

01:05:46.220 the very first chapter and a number of them are all taken from his own sub stack

01:05:50.860 the interesting thing here is again you can hear that and you can read that and you can think to

01:05:58.220 yourself that sounds like something that actually happened i don't i don't disbelieve that stuff

01:06:04.620 like this probably is but it could easily be a synthesis of like five or six underlying data

01:06:09.820 points exactly and that's the thing is that when you just say this stuff without citing it and

01:06:15.660 sourcing it properly it damages the credibility of other people who speak about these kinds of

01:06:21.960 experiences which may or may not reflect reality that's the thing if we want to be able to put our

01:06:27.820 arguments forward properly and authoritatively we need to have truth on our side and if you're

01:06:33.660 just going to say this without any references and nothing that you can do to check up on it

01:06:39.240 that makes you come across insincere and discredits you because the the problem he's describing there

01:06:45.460 is a real intangible problem of you know teachers not being able to teach in the classroom because

01:06:49.920 their students don't speak english that's something that we know is a real phenomenon

01:06:54.280 and you could probably find sources for it as well it's just lazy it is lazy and again when

01:06:59.880 you discuss these things with people on the political left like andy twelves by association

01:07:05.020 you get a little bit of the stink on you if you're using the same talking points because then he can

01:07:10.500 immediately point to somebody like matt goodwin and say oh you're just repeating ai hallucinations

01:07:16.100 like goodwin was so it can damage your own credibility through association here's just

01:07:21.220 some other examples here claim six they also ignore the ancient warning of cicero the great

01:07:26.760 roman statesman who insisted that the supreme duty of the state was to protect its own citizens and

01:07:32.420 put them before others we must begin he said with the people closest to us reality cicero is not

01:07:39.320 quoted saying this and definitely not in deficius or di republica the two major project gutenberg

01:07:45.360 english language translations of cicero i believe this is another ai hallucination it's also just

01:07:50.000 the character of how it's saying it it's you know like the supreme duty of the state was to protect

01:07:56.200 its own citizens and put them before others but why would he be saying that in in his time that

01:08:03.080 was obvious that was yeah like everyone in the roman senate believed that it didn't need to be

01:08:08.680 stated so it wasn't a contemporary issue of cicero so why would he say that that's the main thing

01:08:14.920 like obviously you know that was the case and in fact there are more there are more fake cicero

01:08:22.280 quotes there's a fake james burnham quote where it says uh the academic james burnham put it bluntly

01:08:28.440 many years ago power is exercised through organizations those who control the organizations

01:08:33.980 control the instruments of power which is kind of you know like it sounds like burnham but i've read

01:08:39.420 a bit of burnham and he's never phrased it exactly that way so it's like okay if if you've got like

01:08:45.920 a vaguely correct but wrong quote what's that likely to have come from an ai summary perhaps

01:08:54.580 and speaking of ai summaries one of the most entertaining ones how many of these claims are

01:08:59.220 there on 15 there are 15 and this is within the first five chapters of the book there is claim 15

01:09:05.620 a society that cannot distinguish its friends from its enemies sir roger scrutin warned or that

01:09:11.300 extends hospitality to those who despise its way of life is a society that has lost the instinct

01:09:16.800 for survival this is what suicidal empathy has done to our leaders reality this is part of google's

01:09:23.340 AI generated summary of Roger Scruton's views not an actual quote of his do you see how like

01:09:29.500 just copy and pasting this shit into your book discredits you beclowns the talking points that

01:09:36.420 you're talking about and also adds an air of the circus to everybody else who might want to say

01:09:41.560 quote Roger Scruton's thoughts in my segment just a moment ago Matt was making it very clear that

01:09:48.680 he's the only serious person in politics and well he is a serious formerly he was a serious academic

01:09:54.240 who when he was talking about infiltrating the right yes when he was writing reports with hope

01:09:59.340 not hate he knew how to properly academically cite and source things okay he seems to have

01:10:05.180 forgotten that when he's writing books for now the um the radical center right and speaking of which

01:10:11.140 again claim 14 even though this is like incorrect in terms of what he's citing what is he actually

01:10:17.980 pointing to here he says this is the precisely what mass immigration is doing to the white

01:10:22.920 capitalized w british majority it's hasting the decline of the historic majority without this

01:10:28.960 historic core as professor anthony smith warned the nation loses its distinctive identity and

01:10:34.660 becomes an empty shell for one i mean andy twelves points out this is the opposite of what anthony

01:10:40.280 smith said but also in terms of the actual content of what he's saying here how isn't this not just

01:10:46.140 like completely contradictory to the political points that you're making in all of these podcasts

01:10:50.940 you're saying it's terrible the white uh the white british majority is declining if it declines too

01:10:56.160 much the country won't be english anymore and that's a bad thing great that's a that's a that's

01:11:02.060 a great point what are you going to do about it nothing and what he's going to do is try and stop

01:11:08.760 people from voting for restore so the the re-migration doesn't happen yeah in all of these

01:11:13.560 interviews he's saying that any party that says they'll actually do something to stem or reverse

01:11:18.100 this process is an extreme radical fringe party that you should ignore and i will conspire with

01:11:24.960 people to ruin your career if you do associate with them so again the sincerity is not really

01:11:31.940 there also more evidence is that if you actually look at the 12 footnotes that he leaves in the

01:11:38.300 book two of them actually leave at the end of the sources that he got it straight from chat

01:11:43.100 i mean so far i've been like yeah it looks convincing but it's not exactly a slam dunk

01:11:53.800 but when it's actually got chat gpt in the link now you could say to be fair oh well he's just

01:12:00.260 using it as a research tool yeah but then when you add it on top of everything else it begins

01:12:08.140 to paint a picture doesn't it alongside the fact that again you have chosen not to go with a

01:12:16.820 mainstream publisher despite the fact that i would assume that penguin penguin probably would

01:12:21.780 have published this for you under some imprint and also it's worth pointing out sometimes when

01:12:27.800 i remember reading an article but can't find it on google search i ask chat gpt and if i'm

01:12:33.660 referencing it i make sure to take the chat gpt thing out when i'm adding it to the references

01:12:38.800 because also you know i did genuinely remember it and i did read it myself it wasn't referenced to

01:12:44.860 me it's just using it as a search engine but if i'm doing that how on earth is he not doing that

01:12:51.000 for his book that's a good question but also again when it comes to the publishers i mean

01:12:55.540 as you can see here douglas murray was published by bloomsbury on strange death of europe which

01:13:01.400 to be fair was probably published at a time when this was more controversial to talk about so

01:13:06.460 bluntly and so it's not like you wouldn't have been able to find a publisher and then we get

01:13:11.520 again to the evidence of goodwin working with hope not hate in the past here's his old from voting to

01:13:17.400 violence new evidence on far-right supporters written with matthew goodwin alongside nick

01:13:22.140 lowles of hope not hate the screenshot of nick lowles stating matthew goodwin says that the

01:13:27.100 grooming gang scandal is the scandal that shames britain and makes me angrier than i've ever been

01:13:31.320 then why has he not said or done anything about this before until last year he'd been pretty much

01:13:36.720 silent on the issue i sat on the anti-muslim hatred working group with goodwin for years

01:13:41.560 years and while hope not hate was talking about the issue since 2005 he didn't said absolutely

01:13:47.400 nothing very strange i also think it's interesting as well the point in his life that he was doing

01:13:54.200 these things people can change from left to right in their 20s or you know their teens maybe you know

01:14:02.200 very rarely in their 30s but he was doing this for a long time and you don't rarely get people who at

01:14:09.580 his age come around at that point you get to a point in your life when your politics are pretty

01:14:15.060 much settled normally it's your mid to late 20s yeah and look at this article this is from as

01:14:21.860 recent as 2015 where he argues that the fight against islamophobia is going backwards published

01:14:27.840 in the guardian well that's the most important thing obviously you know fighting islamophobia

01:14:32.000 there are clips that you can find of him from i believe question time or other bbc live audience

01:14:37.760 shows where he is arguing against the so-called far right on islamophobia and other such things

01:14:44.500 so he has a deep history of this and all of a sudden he's publishing suspiciously ai looking

01:14:51.280 books where he's constantly going on about how muslims are the biggest threat in this country

01:14:56.620 which seems to have been an opinion that's popped up out of nowhere for him so so what would nine

01:15:02.160 years ago matt goodwin say to current matt goodwin he would call him an extremist presumably he would

01:15:07.720 say good work matt in discrediting the right wouldn't he well potentially uh he has posted a

01:15:13.820 um again very strange looking massive essay wall o text remember guys he's not terminally online

01:15:23.020 you're terminally online at least he's got the decency to take the chat gpt uh links out this

01:15:28.920 time this time we'll see if it happens again he's taking the m dashes out as well oh no he's

01:15:33.620 replaced the m dashes with just standard dashes but he basically tries to argue in his response

01:15:38.340 to this that are left wingers who argue for example that smith or connor who are two of the

01:15:42.580 people who Andy Twelves called out as having had quotes misattributed to them, did not warn about

01:15:48.160 the loss of a historic core or simply not reading their work or being disingenuous. Whether or not

01:15:53.620 you're pointing to general ideas that they may have discussed, there's a difference between doing

01:15:58.700 that and just fabricating quotes from them. And that's the thing that this response does not

01:16:04.580 address at all, which is just the completely false quotes that have been attributed to a number of

01:16:10.900 people as well as some of the use of statistics which seems to be questionable as well which again

01:16:15.800 just goes further to discredit people on the right who might want to quote statistics because people

01:16:21.440 can offhand dismiss them i love that matt gbt that's very clever yes and again there's the

01:16:28.820 connection with this uh oh sorry north star book publishers uh correct me from earlier

01:16:33.920 who uh include services like ghost writing book editing book marketing book publishing it's just

01:16:39.600 self-publishing thing which can do everything for you instead of going through a number of any of

01:16:46.640 the big publishing companies which he could have gone through it's very incriminating isn't it but

01:16:51.920 it's because he was it was just really afraid of being censored guys the book publishers they

01:16:57.100 wouldn't have let him publish such a daring and outspoken and controversial book like this one

01:17:03.720 i mean given his profile they certainly would like definitely well it's it's one of those things at

01:17:08.340 the minute that grifters have sort of latched onto is the mainstream won't allow me to make

01:17:13.280 this thing it's like graham hancock and his sort of like ancient civilization thing he's talking

01:17:19.200 about how the mainstream is suppressing his ideas of archaeology on on his netflix series

01:17:23.840 it's like i'm sorry mate but the reason that no one wants to be associated with you is because

01:17:28.660 you're full of nonsense and i think that's what's going on here and let's quick quick point of order

01:17:33.420 here john merrick isn't that the elephant man uh yes right unfortunate name isn't it yeah that's

01:17:39.140 that's true what does the elephant man want to tell us about matt goodwin well let's find out

01:17:42.420 by scanning through a few of the more mainstream reviews of the book so this is the new statement

01:17:47.040 article matt goodwin's intellectual suicide by john merrick which is particularly scathing this

01:17:53.700 was quite a fun article to read i must admit yes and and again this is coming from a left-wing

01:17:59.120 perspective so the ultimate point that this guy is making is something that i would disagree with

01:18:04.100 which is again part of the point of why this is so bad they can point to books like matt goodwin's

01:18:11.060 and say therefore demographic change and everything that comes with it is not a bad thing

01:18:16.740 because people like matt goodwin are having to fabricate and make stuff up to make it look like

01:18:22.400 a bad thing whilst being the only serious person in politics who has to tell us how it's done

01:18:26.820 exactly he's the one going around knocking at doors in gorton and denton so he must know what

01:18:31.920 he's talking about right so he just says and this isn't even talking about the ai stuff this is just

01:18:36.320 talking about the quality of the writing let's get this out of the way early matt goodwin's new

01:18:41.660 self-published book is bad very bad in fact even for the increasingly gimcrack never heard of that

01:18:49.100 word world of the british right it is a shockingly poor piece of research and writing made worse by

01:18:54.540 the fact that Goodwin was until recently a fairly well-respected academic. True. If this were AI

01:19:02.120 generated, it would almost be a relief. The sad truth, however, is that even ChatGPT couldn't

01:19:08.100 come up with anything this dead. This is not the language of AI, it's another digital phenomenon,

01:19:14.020 the language of Elon Musk's ex. Log on to social media and you'll find essay-length posts by blue

01:19:19.520 checked right-wingers all composed in the same style. Short, clipped phrases and paragraphs of

01:19:24.500 only one or two sentences larded with dodgy data and spiced unverifiable conjecture true

01:19:31.480 the length is just because there's a tweet size limit uh i think they're talking about

01:19:37.360 really long essay lengths oh those ones i never do yeah oh i don't do those that's actually waste

01:19:42.760 of time that's whatever you want to say about the perspective this guy is coming from that's just

01:19:47.120 true no it is absolutely true the only thing i disagree with there really is that i don't think

01:19:53.560 he's giving enough credit to the fact that the language of elon musk's x in these essay length

01:19:57.720 posts is chat gpt in the first place yep i agree it's it's present everywhere i see it all the

01:20:03.980 time it's really quite annoying people you know lap up this slop with reckless abandon it's really

01:20:11.160 quite frustrating because there's so many insightful and interesting voices on the on the

01:20:15.540 right on on x that get silenced by this nonsense and and the fact that you know goodwin has the

01:20:21.220 gall to then wag his finger at the online right but then make the worst you know the mistake of

01:20:26.840 one of the worst excesses of them in the first place you're saying the day will come where we'll

01:20:30.560 be pining for the return of the indians on twitter because the the gpts are just worse

01:20:36.500 i don't know same thing yeah what's the difference yeah yeah well i mean here's here's some great

01:20:42.200 examples here on every page there are passages that clang so hard they set your teeth on edge

01:20:48.220 sentences like if shared language is the glue then a shared national identity is the anchor

01:20:55.260 everyone everyone knows the glue and anchor analogy obviously and patronizing don't say

01:21:04.400 glue and anchor together too quickly and patronizing asides asking you to quote

01:21:09.680 think about that for a minute pure partridge

01:21:12.540 think about that for a minute i mean it's an it's an incredible persona that he's cultivated

01:21:20.540 over the years really isn't it but then we have more critiques from the right or to the right of

01:21:26.680 goodwin you could say which is ben sixsmith's write-up for the critic called suicide of an

01:21:33.300 author's credibility where he says slop is an overused term but it feels painfully appropriate

01:21:39.540 for a book that is spoon-fed to its audience goodwin who had a long academic career i love the

01:21:45.860 roasting that he's getting through all of these it's fantastic before becoming a successful

01:21:50.120 commentator is not a man who lacks intelligence but he writes as if he thinks his audience lacks

01:21:55.500 it that's the same as his politics yeah i mean that is that is exactly his politics we have to

01:22:01.780 take a message that's developed on the right dumb it down don't mean it and feed it to the right and

01:22:07.200 then they vote for us and we get in power so it's a consistent ideology and you can see the way it's

01:22:12.100 littered throughout the book he says i did not write this book for the ruling class i wrote it

01:22:16.840 for the forgotten majority alas he seems to think that the average member of the forgotten majority

01:22:21.580 has the reading level of a dim-witted 12 year old as well as being stylistically simple the book is

01:22:26.640 full of annoying paternal asides in the pages ahead i shall walk you through what is happening

01:22:31.800 to the country in the next chapter we will begin our journey this is primary school level english

01:22:37.160 writing when you need to introduce a subject to the reader this is kind of like what you do when

01:22:42.940 you're a child and you've not found a better way of doing it there's a lot of highly dubious sourcing

01:22:48.540 mr 12s did not exhaust the number of questionable quotes in the book a nation that cannot defend

01:22:53.140 its borders goodwin claims the roman historian livy wrote will soon cease to be a nation i can

01:22:58.940 find no record of this quote language is the tie that connects past with future and binds together

01:23:05.520 the citizens of the same nation goodwin claims the lexicographer noah webster wrote again i can

01:23:12.400 find no record of this quote i might be misremembering here but i'm pretty sure i've

01:23:17.380 said a nation that cannot defend its borders will soon cease to be a nation maybe even on twitter

01:23:22.140 maybe it's actually quoting you and attributing it to livy i mean thank you chat gpt um besides

01:23:31.800 call it idealistic but i just don't think that a book that claims to defend british culture should

01:23:36.320 be so short on eloquence wit scholarship poetry etc british culture is pretty meaningless if it

01:23:42.400 has the literary standards of chat gpt and the argumentative standards of a telemarketer

01:23:47.960 brutal everything that you've read out so far i mean it's it's it's a world apart from like say

01:23:53.480 peter hitchens book yes we go go and read the uh the book where he's slagging off the tories

01:23:59.240 uh what the cameron delusion there yeah read the opening page of that absolutely every line

01:24:05.160 is masterful yeah and if you want an american version of it um if you read any pat buchanan

01:24:09.980 book pat buchanan has an incredibly impactful rhetorical style that he writes in similar to

01:24:16.520 hitchens or is this again if matt wrote it himself that's even more damning

01:24:22.580 because it reads like chat gpt and the last one is that the spectator who you would expect to be

01:24:31.060 on his side frankly actually got andy 12s the writer of the initial thread to write an article

01:24:39.420 asking did matthew goodwin use ai to write his book so this somewhat hasn't has this is either

01:24:46.100 tory versus reform fighting going on right here or this is because of how poorly this book has

01:24:53.060 been written and how poorly he performed at the gorton and denton by-election could this be reform

01:24:58.780 throwing him under the bus as david bull suggested and implied that they might do i kind of think

01:25:05.180 that matt's own actions have thrown himself under a bus to be honest yeah and uh you know twelves

01:25:10.500 goes on to write a number of other um bits in here about like backing up his claims because

01:25:15.320 some of the other articles I've referenced have been saying, you know, it's not likely that he

01:25:19.720 wrote ChatGPT, that he used ChatGPT to write the book for him. 12s is going straight for the throat

01:25:25.280 and I somewhat agree with him here by saying, actually he probably did. At least he used it

01:25:31.480 to write significant chunks of the book, either because he was lazy or to save time. Some have

01:25:37.600 suggested that saving time might have been on his mind because he may have wanted to get this book

01:25:41.580 out to go along with what he expected to be a glorious victory at gorton and denton how well

01:25:47.160 did that turn out i mean also going back to those interviews uh the rounds all he talks about a lot

01:25:53.200 of what he talks about is how busy he's been and how he's how he's pounding the pavement for 14

01:25:57.840 hours a day so how did he manage to write a lot of tweets to write yeah so tweeting writing a book

01:26:03.880 spending 14 hours a day on the back of a van driving around gorton and denton going aha

01:26:09.560 Keir Starmer is a robot in the most robotic tone of voice possible.

01:26:14.560 It does mention in here, though, that apparently Matt Goodwin has accepted an invite

01:26:19.840 to debate on GB News next week with Andy 12's, the content of the book.

01:26:25.540 The problem is, whether or not there is actual accurate information in there

01:26:31.600 pointing to the negative effects of mass migration,

01:26:36.380 Matt Goodwin is not going to be the guy to argue those points.

01:26:39.600 Matt Goodwin is not a deft rhetorician.

01:26:42.380 He clearly does not have the proper full grasp of the statistics

01:26:46.320 if he is having to pull statistics out of thin air

01:26:49.820 and pull quotes out of thin air.

01:26:52.000 He's just going on to television

01:26:54.220 to further discredit people who share his perspective.

01:26:57.320 Well, I mean, his actual academic background

01:26:59.020 is all about containment of the right.

01:27:01.220 Yes, you could argue that this might be all part of the point.

01:27:03.840 Well, yes, that could be true.

01:27:05.080 And as a result, I don't want this to be entirely negative. I'm going to try and point you to some alternatives, if you are interested on reading what is going on in Britain and Europe and Western countries in general, on immigration and the effects that it has.

01:27:19.360 so let's just go straight to the uh the classic the source really which is the strange death of

01:27:24.020 europe by douglas murray say whatever you want about douglas murray this is a good book and

01:27:29.460 while it is outdated by this point still has a lot of great information that is relevant up to

01:27:34.420 the point where it was written so that's worth picking up if you get the chance if you want an

01:27:38.740 australian and anglo style perspective on this you can read harry richardson and frank salter's

01:27:43.760 anglophobia the unrecognized hatred which i read a few years back which is very good

01:27:48.380 if you want a canadian perspective you can read richard duchene's canada in decay mass immigration

01:27:54.260 diversity an ethno side of euro canadians that's from 2018 but still uh has a lot of relevant

01:28:00.860 information for some more stuff that from him that's relevant to today you can watch my interview

01:28:06.320 that i did with him just a few weeks ago where we're talking about his most recent book greatness

01:28:10.180 and ruin and why the west is unique and how the individualist mindset of the west both led to the

01:28:16.620 greatness of our civilization and also possibly played into its ruin that's going on today

01:28:21.580 and there is some stuff coming up soon like um this one which i'm quite interested in which is

01:28:26.060 martin selner's book coming out in july on remigration so i'm sure that that is going to

01:28:31.320 be a far more worthwhile read than anything that matt goodwin selner is absolutely in this stuff

01:28:37.600 exactly absolutely so those are just some alternatives for you so if you are going to

01:28:42.000 spend your money and spend your time

01:28:43.620 reading a book on this subject,

01:28:45.780 read some people with a greater level

01:28:47.840 of sincerity and credibility behind them

01:28:49.940 rather than reading what is likely

01:28:51.880 to be an AI

01:28:54.000 generated hodgepodge.

01:28:57.280 Well, you can just

01:28:58.020 generate it yourself, as I demonstrated

01:29:00.040 during that.

01:29:02.740 Right.

01:29:03.740 We've got quite a few rumble rants to go through.

01:29:07.200 We've got two.

01:29:08.520 And then we should go through the rumble rants.

01:29:10.400 Give us the video comments.

01:29:12.000 on the podcast we discuss the english production values being low inexpensive cheap and true

01:29:22.780 english tv spent its money on great writing and great acting watched a few great english

01:29:27.540 sci-fi shows for example doctor who the sets were crap the effects were crap the monsters were made

01:29:33.640 of cheap plastic vinyl cloth masks and flash bulbs but what sold these were the writers and the

01:29:39.240 actors bill hartnell patrick troughton john pertwee tom baker all sold the scene and made it real

01:29:47.080 contrast this with new who great effects great sets writing

01:29:52.040 acting culminating in shitty godwa i'd say the effects and and and sets still look terrible in

01:30:00.600 in modern doctor who yeah i mean the only good film that i think has come out in the last year

01:30:05.000 is that Hail Mary

01:30:06.380 that's because it's based on a good writer

01:30:08.580 I've been hearing a lot of people say that

01:30:10.960 that's a good film

01:30:11.760 the book's still better

01:30:13.300 hey little seeders

01:30:16.620 just wanted to give some quick cat

01:30:18.880 pick

01:30:19.460 come on

01:30:20.980 just to cleanse the palate real quick for you all

01:30:24.780 California has

01:30:26.800 over a trillion dollars in debt

01:30:28.660 but hey, who cares

01:30:30.560 am I right

01:30:31.800 when you got these dumb cats

01:30:34.760 that's the spirit let's go through some of the i feel so rejuvenated after a dog video and a cat

01:30:42.820 video i'm pure again yeah so uh i'll read the two from mine ramshackle otter sent two as a

01:30:48.740 commercial artist of 20 years i can spot slop publishing in second the typesetting graphics

01:30:54.400 and editing have nothing of the professional eye about them dying arts yep and also oh wow

01:30:59.900 it's hilariously bad did he even get his mum to check this before printing is this a look the

01:31:05.380 right will swallow anything attempt yeah i think i think it is and it's on us not to swallow it

01:31:10.780 and push it back you can't just leave the fact checking and pushing back on this kind of rubbish

01:31:15.340 to the leftists like nd12s because otherwise you basically let them take that like you

01:31:21.540 cede that whole ground to them um someone says josh um if someone is being honest about what

01:31:30.400 they're saying and running for office they aren't a politician they're someone who wants to get

01:31:33.840 things done and then go back to their former life that's why i like rupert yeah yeah political

01:31:39.220 reality means submit to islam pretty much uh watching you guys do dna got me to do it as well

01:31:46.520 55% British, 36% German

01:31:48.840 2% Danish and then 7%

01:31:51.100 Syrian. Not sure I can watch

01:31:52.960 anymore. Listen

01:31:54.040 I expect that that is probably

01:31:56.840 them just sneaking a little bit in there

01:31:58.960 for you. You can watch 55% of the time

01:32:01.120 No, no

01:32:02.800 you can watch 93% of the time

01:32:05.180 That was probably the

01:32:07.000 Syrian refugee

01:32:08.420 sweating a little bit in

01:32:10.760 their lab as they were

01:32:12.740 analysing your DNA

01:32:13.800 an individual with room temperature

01:32:17.680 IQ can see that reform has become

01:32:19.640 what the Tories were, talk big, backtrack

01:32:21.520 on everything and then complain when someone comes

01:32:23.520 along to do what we said we'd do

01:32:25.000 the funny thing is like Robert Jenrick and all of the others

01:32:27.400 going like, who let all of these

01:32:29.500 Afghans in, we've got to fix

01:32:31.420 this problem

01:32:32.140 who knows Robert Jenrick

01:32:34.960 literally you specifically

01:32:37.440 let the Afghans in Robert

01:32:39.420 we can do some of the

01:32:43.720 comedy commenters from the

01:32:45.860 okay

01:32:46.820 Zesty King says when Nelson Mandela

01:32:50.300 died my politics teacher did a special

01:32:52.400 lesson for us all about him

01:32:53.800 didn't mention any of the terrorism

01:32:55.560 why he was in prison or the state of South Africa

01:32:58.420 at that point they never do

01:33:00.000 hiccup they never do do they

01:33:02.320 you're just left to assume that

01:33:04.300 they threw him in prison I don't know because he was

01:33:06.440 black yes they were just imprisoning

01:33:08.520 random black men in a

01:33:10.020 black majority country not that he was

01:33:12.520 training terrorists to bomb school buses yeah and winnie mandela with the necklacing and talking

01:33:18.480 about killing white people to liberate south africa just didn't happen did it michael says

01:33:24.820 white south africans returning home feel safer in sa while no wonder um the guy quoted was in

01:33:30.700 california his problems aren't trump they're newsome yeah it's ridiculous just like hey i feel

01:33:36.800 unsafe in california over the past 20 years anyway all of my neighbors are mexican yeah

01:33:42.380 imagine moving out of south africa and moving into compton imagine going from i i do genuinely

01:33:49.600 think that south africa is safer than downtown chicago like that's one of the most dangerous

01:33:55.040 parts of the western world yeah henry ashman says goodwin going off about lack of political

01:34:00.320 experience is just silly sure i don't have any political experience but i've never lost a

01:34:04.300 political elections and my political career is all better than him yeah i mean tony blair coming

01:34:08.300 into office um he had no ministerial experience whatsoever i think like a handful like two or

01:34:14.000 three people on his cabinet were like junior ministers in the previous labor government but

01:34:18.060 you know it's normal for politicians not to have that the other funny thing i see thrown out by

01:34:23.060 people online is saying oh well rupert's a nobody nobody's going to vote for a nobody

01:34:26.800 yeah well who was tony blair before he got it um dan's a nobody until there are somebody aren't

01:34:32.140 they dan's bloodshot eye says oh screw you it's a low blow nathan badger says has dan got pink eye

01:34:40.280 right screw you too that's random name totally unrelated does dan have a pink i really was

01:34:45.120 hoping that nobody was going to notice until the drops worked so i i anyway i knew that they were

01:34:52.600 going to say pink eye at you uh there's one thing uh here it's a sentiment i agree with actually

01:34:57.980 lover-hater from david fisher lover-hater likes of peter mcmormack andrew gold or even paul marshall's

01:35:02.560 son winston they do a great job of exposing the real and very often muddled and contradictory

01:35:06.740 thought processes of these characters like goodwin these are just opportunists jumping on the reform

01:35:11.520 bandwagon aim high vote low and leave egg on their faces yeah whatever you want to say about winston

01:35:17.360 marshall every single clip that i see coming out from his podcast is some careerist opportunist

01:35:25.600 type like goodwin shitting themselves on camera yeah oh he is he's good at what he does give him

01:35:32.180 ask a basic question marshall will give them a leg up and say like it was like it was with uh

01:35:38.420 danny krueger where he's like he's like oh you said even afghans can be british and he's basically

01:35:43.620 giving him the opportunity to say no no of course i you know i didn't mean it that way and danny

01:35:48.840 krueger goes no i am retarded actually yep and winston marshall is just left to sit there and

01:35:53.920 be like oh okay all right and that's every single clip it's also not that hard if you actually

01:35:59.860 believe in something to talk about what you believe under pressure we've done debates on

01:36:04.300 this show where we don't go and try and skirt around it you know like people actually talk

01:36:10.620 about what they believe and if you're genuine you don't do that sort of thing it's not just

01:36:14.340 the pressure no it's that they have they're misrepresenting what they believe basically

01:36:19.560 Yeah, and then if it's a really big disagreement,

01:36:21.800 we just go to the car park and fight about it.

01:36:24.360 I'm going to read one from your section.

01:36:26.320 Oh, yeah, yeah.

01:36:26.720 Nick Lowell's hiding in his hate bunker says,

01:36:29.080 can you please actually buy this book and do a book club on it?

01:36:32.140 That would be hilarious.

01:36:33.020 And I would say no, we don't need to,

01:36:35.440 because every day people send us books that we don't want.

01:36:38.680 I mean, we have got every biography of Blair ever written.

01:36:42.680 I now have Benjamin Netanyahu's biography on my desk.

01:36:46.860 That turned up this morning.

01:36:47.700 We have multiple Tony Blair biographies.

01:36:50.300 Now we've got Sherry Blair's biography.

01:36:53.000 We have so many Ed Miliband books and Sadiq Khan books.

01:36:57.920 I have multiple publications from the Fabian Society for some reason.

01:37:01.880 But the chances of us getting sent this book in the next week, I would say, are high.

01:37:05.760 I made the mistake of thinking it would be interesting.

01:37:07.160 But then, do we do a book club on it?

01:37:09.600 Well, if somebody sends it in...

01:37:11.400 Right, well, we're definitely going to get out eight copies now.

01:37:14.520 Yeah.

01:37:14.960 hm butter knife permit registry says come back to manchester harry we'll pop to satan's for a

01:37:21.940 20 pound pint and bitch about crackadilly gardens well whilst that sounds like a delightful

01:37:28.140 opportunity pints are on you frankly if that's how much they're charging in satan's these days

01:37:33.580 i've not been to satan's since uni mate this is something that sounds very strange out of context

01:37:38.780 it's satan's hollow it's like a metal club in manchester but it's actually just like an emo

01:37:44.300 club although it is quite fun dirty belt it would be so much cooler they called it lucifers

01:37:48.860 yeah there used to be a place in crew called lucifers but it shut down as the right begins

01:37:54.960 to wax i fear this will become a bigger problem that being how our strength and habitual victories

01:38:00.860 will attract remoras and have who have no talent or work ethic of their own we need to gatekeep

01:38:07.280 ourselves and ensure that truth hard work and the results are what's valued nothing else

01:38:10.780 in other words we must never lax our standards or it will be the death of us i agree and that's

01:38:16.080 why i wanted to highlight it that's why i say you can't leave this kind of like fact checking just

01:38:20.420 to the left or else they get all the credibility of being the fact checkers when somebody

01:38:25.100 disingenuous is publishing a book like this i've just come up with something he's uh partridge in

01:38:32.080 the streets matt gpt in the broadsheets and on that i think dan very clever yes we're gonna have

01:38:39.120 to go away now because we've gone over so return to your lives and carry on your business goodbye

01:39:09.120 Thank you.

The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters - March 25, 2026

The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters #1382

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