The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters - The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters #953

00:00:00.000 hello and welcome to the podcast the lotus eaters episode 953 on today wednesday the 10th of july

00:00:17.580 2024 i'm your host harry joined today by beau and our returning guest harrison pitt

00:00:23.400 say hello harrison hello chaps hello gentlemen how are we doing how are we doing good to be with

00:00:27.820 you yes and today we're going to be talking about um the real reason for mass migration which is

00:00:34.280 successful penalty shootouts clearly that's the reason i think the ratio is a bit skewed of what

00:00:39.660 is eight players for every million or two people you get into the country but as long as we win

00:00:44.360 the footy it's all right uh we're also saying nuts to nato interested on that one and the exceedingly

00:00:50.000 pointless civil war that's currently going on in the conservative party it's my view at least yeah

00:00:54.700 yeah well that'll be interesting uh we've not got much else to say before then other than we've got

00:00:59.380 rumble rants going on so if you've got a bit of spare change which i know you've got i can see

00:01:03.520 it sticking out of your pocket right now then uh please send it in to us so that we can answer your

00:01:07.500 questions anything else to add gentlemen would you like to poor shame our audience harrison on what

00:01:13.500 grounds oh on any ground that you can think of really i see no reason to be snobbish we'll see

00:01:18.020 what happens as we get into the segments tomlinson talks after this oh yeah tomlinson talks after this

00:01:22.880 as well i believe him and carl are still in america right now but this is one that we've

00:01:26.260 prepared in advance so uh check that out once this is done anyway let's get into the news then

00:01:31.280 so the footy's on at the moment is it i don't know if you've noticed i don't know if you've been

00:01:37.360 anywhere within 50 yards of a pub recently probably 300 yards of a pub over the weekend you might have

00:01:43.460 heard it you might have known that the football was on and i'm going to preface this immediately by

00:01:48.240 saying i don't watch football i don't normally care about football you what mate you don't

00:01:54.500 are we gonna have to take this outside son no please

00:01:58.240 harry's like a foot taller than me like a hundred pounds heavier he's a big guy

00:02:04.180 that's well you know thanks uh but anyway so yeah i don't really watch the football i don't know much

00:02:09.940 about football but i do know what the media always says about the football and i always know the media

00:02:14.100 reactions whenever football happens at the moment with the england team because the england team

00:02:19.360 has a number of people who are of mixed or just outright foreign ancestry on there and that always

00:02:26.900 turns into the story whenever anything goes right goes right with the football from what i can tell

00:02:32.700 there's a few things which is that you're only allowed to be a nationalist when it comes to football

00:02:36.580 when it's football series and the only nationalism that you're allowed to be a fan of when it comes

00:02:41.440 to the football is that you're allowed to be proud of the fact that your country is strong in its

00:02:46.180 diversity and inclusive to people of all backgrounds this is the modern narrative and the football seems

00:02:52.240 to me to be a way in which the media likes to continue to push that and in fact the football is

00:02:57.380 gareth southgate the manager yes the gareth southgate the manager likes to push it as well because

00:03:02.980 he's unapologetically woke and he wants the team to act as um as a media arm for diversity we did a

00:03:10.860 segment a week or two ago where even sadiq khan was making noises about the the saint george's flag

00:03:16.680 should probably be kept to a minimum even during uh you know big football tournaments so how did he

00:03:21.880 feel about the kneeling last time even he's probably loved it didn't he oh yeah ritual humiliation of

00:03:26.680 that but he probably loved it even though he's obviously got nothing to do with george floyd

00:03:30.280 um but yeah um yeah they they would like to even dial down the small amount of national pride you're

00:03:39.040 sort of allowed during big tournaments even that a lot of them would rather we didn't okay so

00:03:45.180 if they did if they did that what would be the reason for most people to even watch the football

00:03:51.160 then if they can't wave the saint george's flag and just be proud of themselves and happy and go out

00:03:57.000 for a pint enjoy themselves what's the point i'd love of actual football maybe but from my from my

00:04:05.020 limited experience you don't go to the pub to watch the football to sit there in perfect silence

00:04:08.960 right no right nurse nursing a single pint or maybe even a sherry that's not what you watch the

00:04:15.140 football for i was in the pub over the weekend i wasn't even watching the football i was spending

00:04:19.040 some time with friends but i could hear everyone constantly i was trying to get around the corner

00:04:23.280 away from people but it was deafening it's strange it's almost as if rather than cheering on

00:04:27.620 you know um footballers drawn exclusively or primarily from the native population increasingly

00:04:34.900 sort of it's like cheering on mercenaries in an army rather than rather than um actual native

00:04:40.000 members of that that people but it's also it's a total waste of patriotic energy in my view and

00:04:44.860 i'd also add harry that it's not just the case that they make the football all about this sort of

00:04:49.100 woke guff when the team does well as indeed the team did do well against switzerland and i think

00:04:54.280 all five players have some kind of ancestral connection to a place other than england and

00:04:58.440 this is why they were touting it as as as an as an example of you know the the virtues of diversity

00:05:04.260 in action it's also when things go badly they will also find a pretext when things go badly in 2021 when

00:05:08.560 it actually so happened and i wouldn't want to make too much of this but if they're going to make

00:05:12.060 a lot of it when things go well it seems natural that people are going to respond in kind

00:05:16.380 i think in 2021 two players who happen to be black were the ones who missed the decisive penalties in

00:05:21.560 the final against italy if it was three looking back at the reporting that was going on then but

00:05:25.920 i might be wrong i remember so it might have been three but the two that i remember which were

00:05:29.740 bukayo saka missed a penalty for england and jordan sancho who's mixed race i think it might have

00:05:34.960 also been marcus rashford as well you're right marcus rashford because i remember there was a mural in

00:05:39.900 salford yes faced after it it's but but but then they focused on the really really negative

00:05:46.040 reaction against those black players and even though many of these negative comments it's

00:05:49.200 later transpired were drawn from places like as as a remote as north africa it wasn't as if people

00:05:53.800 were railing lots of italians lots of italians lots of people other than and they're the ones

00:05:58.040 who beat us indeed lots of people other than native english people being openly racist against these

00:06:02.780 players and there were only about 12 comments if i recall something like that as well but they will

00:06:06.340 also make a meal out of that so it's very much a case of heads diversity wins tails white people lose

00:06:11.180 there's no way of winning they'll always find a way of shoehorning race communism into the into the

00:06:15.420 picture it's interesting that you mentioned the old reaction from back then because i wanted to just

00:06:19.380 remind everybody of what the reporting was at the time and it's very interesting because even if you

00:06:24.240 go on random industry websites like this ilm from 2021 they look at south uh gareth southgate's

00:06:33.120 leadership style and they say what can we learn from this what can we learn from gareth southgate's

00:06:38.260 management of the english football team and if you go down one of the things they highlight

00:06:42.340 is equality we can learn equality from it and they quote him saying it's in our duty to continue

00:06:49.480 to interact with the public on matters such as equality inclusivity and racial justice while using

00:06:56.120 the power of our voices to help put debates on the table raise awareness and educate so again rather than

00:07:03.400 being purely a team playing an international sport trying to seek glory for its home country it's a

00:07:10.980 political tool it's a mode of propaganda where they go look here's a bunch of foreigners on the team

00:07:16.860 but they're doing it in your name therefore they are of that nation in the first place therefore

00:07:22.380 diversity is our strength etc etc etc and it's interesting to see that how far this went where

00:07:27.820 even business websites were trying to promote it as well i think i will say is that the concept of

00:07:33.600 let's kick racism out of football is very old i remember being in the 1990s it was already a

00:07:38.980 slogan people like john barnes were talking about how they're talking about racism in football back

00:07:44.240 in the 70s or well southgate was playing for england back in the 90s wasn't southgate did you say sorry

00:07:50.580 yeah yeah yeah yeah he missed a penalty in euro 96 famously correct um he waddled it over the bar

00:07:57.000 and he was he was within that environment and that sludge already back then he seems to have

00:08:03.480 just carried it on into the modern period yeah yeah yeah i don't know why he's so woke i guess

00:08:09.060 he's just weak will just you know jedi mind tricks work on him i don't know he's a footballer right

00:08:13.540 he's not a mythical philosopher sociologist and yeah and that lacks but apparently they're treating him

00:08:18.920 like a business magnet okay he lacks the intellectual resources to resist against trends is basically the

00:08:24.020 point and yeah yeah yeah and they all his leadership style sorry what leadership style

00:08:28.520 it's just gareth southgate it's not there's no leadership style it's just him saying yeah i pick

00:08:33.380 these guys he's also been gifted with it must be said but both the the um the native british players

00:08:40.260 and the mixed race players included a very very um gifted generation of england players i suspect any

00:08:46.060 manager would have done pretty well with them and he indeed has not won a trophy yet he's got the

00:08:49.960 furthest he's got is to the final in euro 2020 euro 2020 and to to make to the semis didn't we in

00:08:55.240 the world cup i think wasn't it yeah the world i think so we no no not in the most recent world cup

00:08:59.940 maybe we did i can't recall no no we didn't get to the semis in the most recent world cup but in

00:09:02.860 2018 we got to the semis and lost to croatia that's right i mean later on today i think we're uh

00:09:08.460 playing the semi-finals against the netherlands yes so we'll see how that goes i've got my fingers

00:09:13.860 crossed of course but i fear they'll be a bit too strong for us hope not of course this is the

00:09:19.640 thing for me though so i i i unlike you harry i don't know about you but i sounds like you know

00:09:24.140 a lot about quite a bit about football and and i i naturally love football but i can't i never get

00:09:28.720 excited over england anymore and in part because of the the attendance sort of woke politics that

00:09:32.860 comes with it i just have no time for it i enjoy i'm actually am one of those people who goes to

00:09:36.320 the pub and sits in the corner and watches it quietly enjoy and enjoys it as a sporting spectacle

00:09:40.420 there's no sort of nationalistic fervor so you're watching it purely for the technical expertise

00:09:45.360 being shown no as a fan of wanky technical guitar playing i can kind of express that that's what

00:09:51.480 i have a similar thing i love football it's been a big part of my life since childhood i actually did

00:09:57.340 an interview with matt latiss the famous legend living legend matthew latissier brilliant player which

00:10:02.740 uh one of the greatest penalty takers of all time actually um and that's on the uh that's on the

00:10:08.420 website if anyone wants to check that out yeah but i've got a similar thing back in it must have

00:10:12.360 been the very early 2000s can't remember which tournament it was it was the last time michael

00:10:16.680 lowen was playing and uh he blew his knee out in the middle of the game and and we did badly in that

00:10:22.640 tournament and ever since then i obviously still watch them and still interested and still cheer for

00:10:27.360 england i think ever since then so i was in like my early mid 20s late 20s something like that

00:10:32.460 um yeah i don't get as excited as i used to when i was in my when i was a teenager or a kid

00:10:37.420 big tournaments the world cup it was the most important thing in my life it was so important

00:10:41.880 to me i was so happy when we'd won i was genuinely emotionally distraught when we get knocked out

00:10:46.320 well i'm just not like that anymore now i watch the game cheer if we win tight when we concede all

00:10:52.040 that sort of thing but yeah i don't get i keep it in perspective i'm not yeah maybe it's just because

00:10:56.780 i'm older and more cynical now i don't know but but you say going to the pub i was actually in the

00:11:01.960 pub with devon tracy aka atheism is unstoppable at the weekend what i named and uh yeah we're mates

00:11:08.440 um in irl you mean the devon tracy devon tracy and it's just an excuse to go a bit mental when you

00:11:15.820 score a goal though isn't it so again when i was young that's what i was hearing when i go to west

00:11:19.540 ham and we score a goal you go berserk and there's not really uh much uh window to do that in

00:11:25.940 civilized life really literally jumping up and down screaming at the top of your voice when do

00:11:30.360 you get to do that as a as a civilized human grown-up man other than when your team score

00:11:35.320 oh absolutely but i will say given that the both of you are saying that your enthusiasm outside of

00:11:41.020 those small moments has drained someone it is a shame that the um the overt politicization of the

00:11:48.960 whole thing has really drained some of the energy for it because it should be something and i

00:11:54.620 this may sound a bit cliche it should be something that's a bit more universal than whatever the

00:11:59.800 political hot butt topic at the moment is yeah but it's been made very very political through the

00:12:05.120 actions of southgate and through the actions of the media as well and through just the realities of

00:12:09.660 day-to-day life in england and the rest of britain at the moment and like you said harrison even when

00:12:15.440 they lost they had to try and turn it around into something where it was still hitting that same point

00:12:21.020 diversity is strong sorry we we lost but it was because possibly because we weren't diverse enough

00:12:27.100 obviously our strength hadn't fully found it the basic the basic formula if i can just very quickly

00:12:32.480 from my understanding is is this if we win that's proof that diversity is a strength that's quite an

00:12:38.980 easy thing and particularly if the black players do well in an outside sense as indeed they did against

00:12:43.400 as indeed against who do we play against switzerland uh if we lose and there's a backlash against

00:12:49.460 um certain players even if the backlash isn't actually racially motivated as in most cases it

00:12:54.380 isn't it's usually just personal abuse i'm not saying i support that but it's not racially charged

00:12:57.940 personal abuse then it proves that the native population is irredeemably racist and therefore

00:13:02.420 merit exactly the kind of replacement that makes diversity worth celebrating when we win so it really

00:13:07.220 is a catch-22 situation that's why you should hate the media indeed so but but this article is a

00:13:11.420 perfect example of what we're talking there because it's from two years old says england may have lost

00:13:16.520 but southgate's team shows us the nation we can be from this presumably native scot i assume um which

00:13:25.260 is interesting because sorry i've just i've just seen it is saying the practical and moral argument

00:13:30.020 that our diversity is our strength has long been made and this team proves it again they lost at the

00:13:35.520 time but even so they still have to spin it they have to spin it into being something aspirational

00:13:41.500 don't worry if the rest of england looks like this we too can be second place in everything

00:13:47.720 this is the aspiration that we're going for the same way that i believe what was it the tories in

00:13:53.040 the lead up to the election were saying about how we are the second biggest soft power in the world

00:13:59.980 this is not aspirational this is this is oh you can be first of the losers if you if you adopt all of

00:14:06.740 my terrible insane progressive attitudes to everything you can be second best oh fantastic

00:14:12.820 i'm sure you know that's what cecil rhodes uh that's what uh that's what the entire empire was

00:14:18.640 about right lord curzon second was always on the on the seeking second best clearly

00:14:24.600 and this article's got some interesting things it reminds everybody about the

00:14:31.140 danny boyle olympic uh opening ceremony which uh thank you for reminding me of that

00:14:37.340 absolute travesty they point he says here there were naysayers particularly those who condemn the

00:14:44.100 diversity and inclusivity projected by it as woke still most others are proud to see a presentation

00:14:48.540 to the world of not exactly who we are but a snapshot of the modern nation we would like to be

00:14:54.740 we being the media talking class but but again is this idea is aspirational we're on the wave there

00:15:03.320 but we're not quite there yet the multicultural revolution is a never-ending project really it's

00:15:09.900 a permanent revolution some white boys haven't had the common decency to disappear yet

00:15:15.240 so mission not accomplished just yet there's still a bit of pale pasty skin on this team so

00:15:22.560 i don't know we're not quite there yet but he goes on to say as uh you know as a british black

00:15:29.080 londoner son of windrous generation i find it has never been so easy to support an england tame

00:15:34.680 it's northern southern black white mixed heritage youngest experience it's multi-denominational

00:15:39.920 possibly it has players who excel at their jobs and earn a fortune doing them but in try in various

00:15:45.260 ways to ground themselves in the lives of a society in which they are a fetid part they do a good

00:15:50.380 they do good things we read about them in tabloids they do stupid things we read about them in tabloids

00:15:55.440 bloody bloody blah some of us has long made the practical and moral argument that britain's

00:16:00.460 diversity is an extreme so he's just saying that yeah the point of this team as it exists right now

00:16:06.760 is purely propaganda yes you can go to the pub you can cheer you can scream when they score a goal

00:16:12.480 but what you're really supposed to be taking away from it is not the excellence being displayed

00:16:17.200 on the football pitch is not the union that you get with the people around you as you're

00:16:22.060 taking in the moment is that you should look at it and go diversity is our strength diversity is

00:16:27.220 hammering that point home diversity is our strength and you mentioned the racist abuse obviously when

00:16:33.460 it turned out that they didn't actually score uh it became the story became well it was so terrible

00:16:39.320 of the natives of this country even though they weren't really the ones doing it when people looked

00:16:44.120 into it uh and they know that this is another worry in this euros as well where people have been saying

00:16:51.500 well they better do better this time because otherwise the same thing is going to happen again

00:16:56.640 and we might not be the perfect diverse nation that we're trying to be it's funny as well again i can't

00:17:01.440 remember all the details it's fairly hazy it's 2021 but by in in sort of the the footballing

00:17:06.100 punditry world including the amateur pundits who exist on twitter who are often much more insightful

00:17:10.440 it must be said than the professional pundits like gary neville although i do quite like jeremy

00:17:14.240 carrigan i think he his analysis is usually pretty shrewd but in any case um most of the

00:17:19.460 complaints were not directed at these the three black gentlemen who missed they were directed

00:17:23.360 primarily at southgate in particular because i think it was marcus rashford in particular it might

00:17:28.220 have been jordan sancho as well they're both usually quite good penalty takers in football matches

00:17:32.380 so he brought them on very very late in the game with roughly about two minutes left so that they

00:17:37.120 could take penalties you might say that well that sounds like a sensible tactical move it's

00:17:40.180 actually not because usually you have an advantage in football if you've already been playing for

00:17:44.400 about an hour you've got into the groove and you're going to be much better taking a penalty

00:17:47.620 these guys would have would have had quite cold feet they wouldn't have really got got into their

00:17:51.080 groove yet and so most of the most of the um uh uh most of the criticism was directed at southgate

00:17:57.220 veritably white uh for that blunt tactical blunder and and again for the other part of it with

00:18:03.340 southgate being unapologetically woke i believe the intention was also to put the more diverse parts of

00:18:09.580 the team at the forefront and put them into positions where they could potentially fail

00:18:13.720 because if they succeed well then you can turn it into the national story and that's what they've

00:18:18.840 been trying to do because over the weekend we had the switzerland game i believe uh we scored most if

00:18:25.100 not all of them we won we we scored all of them we won and uh then you get articles like this paul

00:18:31.800 elliott reveals his pride as five footballers of black heritage smash racial stereotypes is there a

00:18:37.900 racial stereotype that black people can't take penalties not particularly well no no at all

00:18:43.540 that's not a thing that was just a very confusing part of this headline when we did digging we found

00:18:48.780 out that actually in north africa there may be there may be one but not not in these eyes

00:18:51.980 honestly it was so it was extraordinary there was a whole sort of spectator editorial where they

00:18:57.400 went into these who are these people on instagram these shady characters on instagram who are sort of

00:19:02.120 um accusing the the black players of missing because they were black and a huge proportion of them

00:19:06.800 came from north africa really i recall that what you're saying right yeah oh okay i'm sure i'm

00:19:11.580 sure those sorts of stereotypes will exist there all right i thought you were saying that north

00:19:15.660 african players are worse oh no no no no i see what you're saying right yeah thank you thank you

00:19:21.600 thank you for inviting me to clarify that's very helpful thank you so so you can see again they say

00:19:27.840 that one of the lines from here no amount of off-field work being the the media appearances and all of

00:19:34.380 the propaganda they push in the interviews and such is as powerful as the sight of five england

00:19:39.260 players of ethnic heritage firing their country into a european championship semi-final so so again

00:19:44.680 remember if they lose diversity is our strength but really if they win diversity is really our strength

00:19:52.620 we've never been stronger at the moment let's see how the semis go later today really to me just

00:19:58.820 really lame really pathetic that it's any tiny thing you know like we invented everything and uh

00:20:06.320 when we score a bunch of penalties aren't we great sort of as a as a race other than as an ethnicity

00:20:12.640 um just constantly blackwashing other people's history and things it's really pathetic

00:20:18.300 it's really weak i i think no i i i agree with you and again it shows the fragility

00:20:25.820 of the whole multicultural project which is this group the media seems to treat it as this group

00:20:33.720 needs constant bsing yeah constant bsing so because they're as a group so insecure that if

00:20:41.520 they're not constantly being bs'd they'll what go crazy yeah you don't need a relentless diet of

00:20:48.400 propaganda to establish as a truth in the nation that kittens are cute if this was so self-evidently

00:20:53.480 true they would they wouldn't be constantly feeding us with these as you say well this constant

00:20:57.720 bsing this constant gaslighting it's the same problem with the whole multicultural project being

00:21:02.640 a never-ending project well if it was so strong and so naturally self-evident that this is just the

00:21:08.760 best and most efficient way to order a society why does it constantly need the nudge and the

00:21:14.540 pressure of social engineering why does it constantly need an enormous media and bureaucratic

00:21:20.080 apparatus to even keep it semi-functioning why does it have to be that you need hate speech laws

00:21:25.720 to stop the natives of european countries from protesting against it if it was really all it's

00:21:31.780 made up to be why would you need any of that think about it's so weird you know uh five english black

00:21:38.800 lads score some penalties in germany one time so everyone from st louis to cape town can pat themselves

00:21:46.840 on their back for being having the roughly the same amount of melanin in their skin like what

00:21:51.580 what are you talking about what nonsense nonsense but again one of the interesting things is this has

00:21:57.980 been pushed for the this is why we need migration this was one that was going about let's see uh it's

00:22:03.260 got a little over 2 000 likes this meme england doesn't win without immigration and it takes out

00:22:09.060 the names of all of the people who have immigration background who are on the team

00:22:12.840 uh the the interesting thing again showing that this team really isn't very native at all which is

00:22:20.560 very interesting but also it's the fact that well if we didn't have all of these people i don't mean

00:22:25.440 to sound harsh there would be other people right to fill those slots there would be in the same team

00:22:30.680 who might be just as good they might be a little bit worse they might be better you don't know because

00:22:35.600 you're talking about a pure hypothetical but i've got to say i don't know how the selection process works

00:22:42.040 for who gets into the england team but i can't imagine gareth southgate picks them gareth southgate picks

00:22:48.020 them i very much doubt given how much of a political operator he is and how highly politicized the team

00:22:53.700 is that he's done a really detailed survey of every team in the entire country to pick out

00:22:59.220 the absolute best of the best i'm sure he's obviously he's picked out from what you're saying

00:23:04.480 some very very uh very good football he's spoiled for choice frankly he really is yeah but consider this

00:23:10.780 it's probably working in the same way that it worked in university admissions in america for a

00:23:15.800 long time you've got two candidates both of whom are about equally qualified if one has ethnic minority

00:23:22.360 background you basically add five points onto them and choose them i would imagine it's something like

00:23:28.060 that it's a classic thing england has suffered from what i'm about to say for decades that they will

00:23:33.400 nearly always pick with a few exceptions the sort of the most famous most well-played players regardless

00:23:40.320 of really if they're in form and stuff for example rooney towards the end of his career yeah he would it

00:23:45.400 was just a slam dunk that he'd get picked regardless of anything if he's fit he gets picked uh he always

00:23:50.360 played kind of crap for him i mean he scored tons of goals but often he would play in tournaments he

00:23:55.380 didn't tend to score as many yeah yeah often he would play poorly for england and uh there's

00:23:59.900 someone like matt latiss where he only ever played for southampton he never played for man united or

00:24:05.380 liverpool or whatever never got in england he got like nine nine england caps yeah yeah something

00:24:10.380 tiny like that yeah yeah yeah and um he never had the england career he deserved because he wasn't a

00:24:16.560 big enough name and this is what's happening now it's happened for decades and decades they pick the

00:24:23.640 the most famous ones really uh the ones that play for the biggest teams and not necessarily a pure

00:24:31.040 meritocracy but there you go it's uh it's not an exact science it's true i'm sure i'm sure i'm sure

00:24:36.760 the uh the meritocratic way of operating has been diminished slightly in this sort of uh you know

00:24:42.560 post floyd era in the in the england team but i will say one of the things that makes the england

00:24:47.380 football team different from harvard admissions is that it's a much more public process in which

00:24:52.300 the vast majority of the nation or a huge a significant minority of the nation feel they

00:24:56.520 have a very personal emotional stake and so if so for example um someone like foden who is a white

00:25:02.020 player has had such a wonderful season at man city that there would just be an uproar if gareth

00:25:06.320 southgate for woke on the grounds of woke criteria did not pick him and so gareth southgate has much

00:25:11.620 less maneuver than the harvard admissions department do when it comes to watering down meritocratic standards

00:25:16.100 i would say but i'm sure it's had some effect okay i i can't really dispute that you guys are

00:25:21.540 helping me along with this quite nicely but again give again i will just say that from a layman from

00:25:26.800 an un from somebody who doesn't really know much about all i would be shocked if there weren't

00:25:31.860 political considerations into the choice of the team because i mean southgate has all but said that

00:25:36.800 there is and the media is treating it like there is and here's the here's one of my favorites this

00:25:41.440 clangor from diane abbott everybody's favorites we all know that she's an intellectual giant of

00:25:47.640 british politics giants of the english football team meanwhile reform is complaining about

00:25:53.120 immigration i mean mainly illegal immigration how do those things connect like really that's a bit of

00:26:00.420 a strange comparison to make but again the whole argument that's being made here is football good

00:26:07.140 you want to do well in football throw open the gates to your country make sure you've got open borders

00:26:12.960 and then you might win a trophy look first the first thing that's worth saying is that we won the

00:26:17.500 world cup in 1966 without a single mixed race or black player in the team just to detail the second

00:26:22.620 thing i would say uh is that i'm very happy to sacrifice a slight drop-off in sporting achievement

00:26:29.000 even assuming that this immigrant infusion is necessary i'm very happy to sacrifice a slight drop-off

00:26:34.300 in sporting achievement in order to have a more unified national culture which would necessarily have to

00:26:39.000 include its demographic underpinnings which is you know more the more homogeneity you have the more

00:26:43.520 likely you are to be able to be a cohesive national culture so if we could get rid of race politics

00:26:49.160 tomorrow because it would have no purchase in britain because we were as homogeneous as japan

00:26:52.560 and what we did as well as in japan in national tournaments which is to say not very well

00:26:56.760 that's fine with me no absolutely i mean diane abbott's basically it's a non-secretary really she's

00:27:01.440 basically saying there's a few black lads in the england first england team so

00:27:05.360 endless bangladesh's and afghanistan is just an endless stream of those then now where are they

00:27:11.420 in the team yeah where are there are any of these guys from somali backgrounds no i don't think so

00:27:18.620 no no yeah then why is why are 72 percent of the somalis in london in social housing then

00:27:24.300 why do we need them why can't we make distinctions even if we do want to even if we do want to

00:27:29.840 you know to have some immigrant immigration policy slightly weighted in favor of having

00:27:35.420 you know uh people who i think most of these chats probably be from of west african descent

00:27:40.000 um uh fine but just just say that and make make make make make these distinctions be open about it

00:27:46.400 it really does show actually now that we now that we've spoken about this that even somebody like

00:27:51.180 diane abbott really does see the entirety of the immigration debate about the natives versus what is

00:27:58.660 essentially just a giant organic biomass of brown foreigners that are completely undifferentiated

00:28:06.160 from one another it's just the englishman versus everybody from not who's not from europe

00:28:13.140 so that's not just interesting all of whom get all of whom get on notoriously well not just brown

00:28:18.940 skin but immigrant immigration in general so we really by right should have somebody in the team

00:28:23.300 that's an ex-albanian convict really shouldn't we to be fair if we're gonna be yeah where have you

00:28:30.000 pulled convicts from or are you just thinking well there's no chance of getting an albanian who isn't

00:28:34.120 right yeah that an ex-convict isn't is it not the case that a lot of uh albanians that come here are

00:28:39.780 cocaine dealers are ex are criminal albanians one of the most uh we did we i think we now have an

00:28:46.380 agreement with albania which means that many of them get do actually get returned it's one of the few

00:28:49.720 successes of the sunak premiership that he managed to negotiate that but it is true and it's very

00:28:54.040 interesting um someone pointed out that the tickets to get just to just fly from albania to britain

00:29:01.720 is much much much much much cheaper than going through the illicit smuggling routes which means

00:29:07.840 that the only people who were not paying for to do it in the legal way would have to have some reason

00:29:12.340 to pay to to to pay the the more hefty fee and that could only be that their passport would be

00:29:19.360 rejected because they probably had a criminal background right right but i do think we've gone

00:29:22.940 a little bit off of what the topic this was we can always get on to albanian criminals somehow on this

00:29:28.500 podcast don't we and we didn't talk about the technical side of football at all i think there

00:29:33.460 was some mention of it again it's not my wheelhouse so thank you both for carrying this

00:29:37.700 segment for me let's move on to nato oh okay uh samson wants me to read the rumble rants and he

00:29:48.760 is my god so i have to obey his commandments uh we've got two so far so thank you both for sending

00:29:54.960 it uh sending these in one from hewitt 76 for five dollars says being proud of our own mediocrity is

00:30:01.740 britain's genuine national sport yep that's what we've been reduced to really isn't it

00:30:06.820 uh sorry you didn't catch it did you quick moment there sorry yeah uh just saying that being proud

00:30:12.160 of our own mediocrity is britain's genuine national sport oh yeah yeah that's what we've been reduced

00:30:16.360 it's all we've got left yeah old gill needs this

00:30:19.840 oh you gotta cut old gill a break here and uh the shadow band for five dollars says this conversation

00:30:28.660 isn't part of ice hockey for some reason the last i heard about ice hockey didn't one of the black

00:30:33.680 players hello is my microphone working yeah very good but correct me in the comments if i'm wrong

00:30:41.300 but didn't one of the black hot ice hockey players recently accidentally slice someone's neck open

00:30:47.200 and killed them in the middle of him yeah yeah perhaps accidental manslaughter but i think

00:30:51.840 yeah i throw my hands truly disgusting incident yeah unbelievable unbelievable awful thing to have

00:30:57.840 yeah it's terrible terrible yeah ice hockey is a brutal sport from what i'm aware yeah yeah yeah

00:31:03.400 that was bad that was real bad i wonder actually i should google after this whether that guy got

00:31:08.460 prosecuted for that because most commentators i'm not a big ice hockey guy um said that doesn't

00:31:14.680 happen you don't accidentally throw your your your skate up blade first at like six foot in the air

00:31:21.020 at someone's throat it's basically almost never ever and hit them right where it needs to for them

00:31:25.920 to bleed to death yeah yeah that was horrible yeah that's that was pretty awful so that's the only

00:31:30.960 thing i really know about ice hockey but thank you for sending that uh rumble chat in let's go to the

00:31:35.080 next segment okay i thought we can talk a little bit about geopolitics talk a bit about nato it's nato's

00:31:41.380 75th birthday didn't you know and so to to mark that uh putin dropped loads of bombs on kiev yesterday

00:31:50.960 um i don't know if it was actually to mark that were those birthday streamers yeah yeah it was

00:31:57.620 pretty bad i mean maybe hit a hospital and dozens of people died and uh of course absolutely terrible

00:32:02.960 and disgusting but i thought we'd talk a bit about it because there's a big nato conference going on

00:32:07.440 to call about what sleepy joe says about it or rather what his state department and pentagon

00:32:12.020 uh handlers tell him to say about it and what he remembers after they've told him to say

00:32:17.220 right yeah what he mumbles uh what he parrots through a mumble they've told him to say um and

00:32:22.740 sakir our prime minister what he says about it but before we go into all of that i thought i could

00:32:29.300 just talk a little bit about the history of nato because i fear a lot of people out there might not

00:32:32.840 really know too much about it um and i've got my own take on it we don't pretend to be completely

00:32:38.660 unbiased here at loadseaters so i have got my own view and i'm not really well i'm not a fan of

00:32:44.740 nato i don't know about you guys if you've got strong feelings about it one way or another

00:32:47.940 um but the headline is for me um it's sort of outmoded it's sort of a relic of the cold war

00:32:55.300 and something happened when the cold war ended when the berlin war came down in 89

00:33:00.240 and when the soviet union collapsed in 91 something should have profoundly changed with nato and it did

00:33:07.920 but the other way rather than sort of disbanding itself or winding itself down

00:33:12.320 it sort of dialed itself up if anything and so i thought we could just talk a bit about nato and

00:33:17.760 then look at look at um keir and um joe and what's going on with that summit to give to give my own

00:33:24.740 perspective uninformed compared to yours as it probably is it seems to me uh looking at it right

00:33:30.820 now that nato is more of a organization to ensure and expand american influence in europe and that

00:33:39.820 according to some of the more convincing analysis that i've seen mainly from uh professor john

00:33:45.240 meersheimer who's an excellent international analyst when he's been appearing on um different

00:33:49.700 shows like piers morgan and then shows like um judge napolitano uh the nato expansion eastward

00:33:57.420 particularly potentially into ukraine as was being discussed continually getting closer and closer and

00:34:04.020 closer to russia's borders is really what kick-started this whole conflict in the first place

00:34:08.660 certainly part of it it's an element of it no doubt no doubt well so if i do a quick chronological

00:34:15.200 rundown so at the end of world war ii joe starling uncle joe found himself in control of all of west

00:34:23.500 eastern and sort of central europe sort of even beyond berlin all of that part of europe that we

00:34:28.740 started the war to save right yeah yeah we went into uh liberate poland didn't we we failed to do that

00:34:34.020 in the end um so you know let's be fair at the end of world war ii you know the cold war essentially

00:34:40.620 started immediately even before actually in late 44 in early 45 before mr hitler had killed himself

00:34:47.480 and before the war had ended already there was wranglings between the supreme command on our side

00:34:53.500 the allies and the red army over who's going to stop where and also it's already started really

00:34:58.620 um so at that point in time 1945 or the two or three years after 1945 it's absolutely not a crazy

00:35:06.920 idea to think that western europe and the united states uh would benefit from some sort of treaty

00:35:15.700 to of cooperation to work together against frankly let's be honest a very aggressive expansionist

00:35:23.380 soviet union under starling that's that's not that's okay right that makes complete sense

00:35:28.920 um starling would have had did have designs on pushing further um at one of the big conferences

00:35:36.360 i can't remember if it was yalta or uh potsdam or somewhere someone said to him i think it was in the

00:35:41.620 in churchill's british delegation they said to him you must be quite pleased really with the way

00:35:46.340 the great patriotic war has ended for you you find yourself in the middle of europe and he said

00:35:50.980 well czar alexander in the polonic era got as far as paris so just that one line alone suggests he

00:35:57.520 did have ambitions beyond where the iron curtain finally fell well from what i'm aware in sean

00:36:03.020 mcmechan's book stalin's war he has a lot of documentary evidence to show that stalin was

00:36:09.100 basically on the edge of going into eastern europe by about 1941 right yeah well i mean the idea of

00:36:17.900 of internationalism the like the common turn the idea of that that communism uh should dominate the

00:36:24.460 whole world yeah they're explicit about that it's a necessarily it's a necessarily global ideology and

00:36:30.120 stalin's own invocation of alexander the first who did indeed get to paris um with the defeat of

00:36:34.940 napoleon in 1815 in 1815 when napoleon had come back from the island of elba elba the island of elba

00:36:41.560 that's correct um which is true that the russians got as far as paris and i suppose that's quite

00:36:46.600 impressive in a way but he did the russians didn't therefore off the back of that annex

00:36:51.160 the france it wasn't it wasn't an attempt to to to transform france completely ideologically in line

00:36:58.140 with one homogeneous ideology it was it was it was um they just reinstated yeah there was the congress

00:37:03.380 of vienna and then they reinstated the bourbon monarchy that's true but it was not it didn't have

00:37:08.080 the same sort of global ideological ambitions as communism and i think this a similar thing probably

00:37:12.880 applies to putin i'm sure he wants russia to be geopolitically dominant in its own sphere of

00:37:17.480 influence but the idea that he wants to russify the world in the way that stalin evidently wanted

00:37:22.340 to communize the world is clearly not true yeah cossacks watering their horses in the seine

00:37:27.680 um whether yeah whether putin wants his russian tanks to sort of dominate montmartre i don't know about

00:37:36.340 that uh but anyway so so going back to the the late 40s um there was originally a treaty was it the

00:37:43.180 treaty of brussels where france britain belgium holland and i think luxembourg had a treaty to say

00:37:49.220 that you know if the soviets do push into western europe we at least will work together and then that

00:37:55.600 morphed into the north atlantic treaty which is nato is the north atlantic treaty organization that's what

00:38:01.400 that means that's what nato stands for and the united states got involved obviously uh truman this

00:38:06.420 is still even before the korean war and um originally the headquarters were in london for a few years

00:38:12.060 later it became paris and in the 60s actually just quickly to jump ahead in the mid 60s de gaulle

00:38:17.720 uh brought france out of nato well not entirely out of nato but they didn't have their troops fighting

00:38:23.560 for nato so they moved the the headquarters to brussels in belgium of course and that's where it is

00:38:29.400 today that's why it's in brussels some people might think why is nato's headquarters in brussels

00:38:33.140 anyway that's one of the reasons but we look at um the the europe as it was throughout the 50s

00:38:39.660 and even 60s um there's the cold war the height of the cold war there was always this endless fear

00:38:47.320 that the ruskies the soviets were going to invade from east germany into west germany and then who knows

00:38:54.600 what that's what the cold war was largely about so that worry is that they're going to try and take

00:39:00.920 over europe and so something like nato made complete sense it made perfect sense it was prudent i think

00:39:08.400 so i think most people would agree it was it's sort of a no-brainer almost okay so i accept that i think

00:39:14.960 most people accept that but then as i say when the when the wall came down in 89 and then the soviet

00:39:22.800 the soviet project itself collapsed in 91 um you know perhaps nato should have rethought its entire

00:39:31.900 remit even even its own existence i mean there's a famous quote from one of the early founding fathers

00:39:37.000 of it that the point of nato was to to keep the soviet union out the americans in and the germans down

00:39:43.860 which is a funny thing and they're talking about century a little about germany really

00:39:48.060 or where the iron curtain is um so yeah um but things changed after after 91 um nato

00:39:58.720 just kept expanding they they obviously didn't sit like any power structure probably or any sort of

00:40:05.780 living organism it sort of doesn't want to die if it can help it well if it can expand and flourish

00:40:12.540 it will try to well again the very fact that the point of it was to keep the americans in america was

00:40:18.160 able to extend a huge amount of power over europe in doing so so why wouldn't it want to just keep

00:40:24.820 expanding it america is one of the modern empires probably the greatest modern empire that's still

00:40:30.900 around today it's hegemon of the world let's be honest yeah so of course it's going to want to

00:40:35.720 extend its hegemon everywhere it can right so why why wouldn't it try and do that and it's actually

00:40:42.320 make it's one of the things which weirdly makes i'm not making a moral comparison i'm only making a

00:40:46.600 kind of structural and formal one but it's one of the things that makes nato weirdly more similar to

00:40:52.180 to the warsaw pact than it was before because there are all sorts of ideological conditions attached to

00:40:57.920 nato membership it's not just expansionist in a sort of geopolitical sense we want to annex this

00:41:02.680 territory annex is the wrong word in this context we want to claim this territory we want to plant

00:41:06.640 our flag here there are conditions that preconditions attached like being a democracy being being having

00:41:12.880 a sort of liberal system of of government and we might think these are good to a certain extent open

00:41:16.620 borders to a certain extent open borders was it was it was it kosovo that was bombed in the 90s by

00:41:21.080 clinton and one of the one of the nate yeah one of the nato chiefs said that the reason that they were

00:41:26.100 doing it was because of the idea of a um an ethnically homogenous state in europe was an outmoded and

00:41:32.020 outdated idea and we couldn't have that anymore didn't know about that but but it is but then

00:41:36.420 there were times of course when when nato did actually make exceptions and relaxed some of its

00:41:40.380 criteria i mean the fact that turkey was admitted the fact that spain was admitted the fact that

00:41:44.160 greece there were all sorts of sus cases but i think after 1991 there should have been what what

00:41:50.180 what i'm sure beau's going to get into the details but but the mentality set in that there was a kind of

00:41:54.660 triumphalist unipolar moment sort of the fukiyama hypothesis liberal democracy is clearly the way it's

00:42:00.140 only it's inevitable nato is going to be part of expanding this uh this eastwards and i think

00:42:05.040 there should have been more prudence that kicked in and maybe nato didn't necessarily have to die

00:42:09.400 but it should have certainly revised what it was about and maybe should have become part of a

00:42:12.700 a broader security architecture in europe which could have included russia and could and could have

00:42:17.500 um you know stemmed the tide of a kind of revanchist russia on the rise which putin is clearly

00:42:22.240 manifestational yeah because there's many layers each country's got their own army haven't they

00:42:27.260 america if it wants to can unilaterally act as it did in iraq for example um you know they get

00:42:33.840 get themselves some sort of vague un resolution yeah actually nato did have a small role to play

00:42:40.140 in iraq uh but they weren't sort of flying hundreds of sorties and bombing all over the place but anyway

00:42:45.460 we'll get to that in a moment um so yeah when the soviet union collapsed in 1991 there was then the war in

00:42:51.300 the balkans in the early 90s i mean it was kicking off by 91 92 and started really happening in 93 94

00:42:58.420 through to 95 i'm fascinated by that that the breakup of yugoslavia and those various balkan wars there's

00:43:03.680 all sorts of balkan wars i've been reading about it studying about it for years uh we'll do an epochs

00:43:09.040 about it probably a series eventually i find it very very fascinating it's very very complicated as

00:43:13.660 well it really is a breakup of yugoslavia but nonetheless um so in sort of 93 94 um nato sort

00:43:21.940 of starts getting involved in it and in fact the first time they did any sort of hot action was in

00:43:28.100 that since 1949 they began in 1949 they never really fired any shots in anger at all until the bosnian war

00:43:35.200 basically uh american i think they're f-16s uh the black knights shot down some serbian or bosnian

00:43:42.640 serbian light aircraft in the early 90s so right there you can see just one small example that

00:43:49.860 something's something's changed there hasn't it it's supposed to be a north atlantic treaty

00:43:54.960 organization to check the warsaw pack or to check the soviets to check the russians but now we're

00:44:01.540 bombing serbian assets uh wait what what's going on now because they basically changed the goal

00:44:07.600 post they basically just started saying you know we're we're about humanitarianism we're trying to

00:44:11.760 stop a genocide which on the face of it or not even on the face of it it is uh you know a righteous

00:44:17.720 thing right i mean i'm not saying it's not but you have changed the goal post goal posts though

00:44:22.660 right and you know it probably was the right thing to if you can prevent a genocide but still

00:44:30.160 is that is that nato's job if if clinton and john major wanted to do that they could have just used

00:44:37.040 the royal air force and the u.s air force why are they going through nato now though and yet in 1999

00:44:43.060 a completely different war in the balkans with kosovo again we just we just start bombing belgrade

00:44:50.260 under blair by that point things have changed by 1999 i mean they got involved nato now is involved

00:44:56.600 in all sorts of things darfur they gave some assistance when there was hurricane katrina i

00:45:00.780 think it was anyway one of the big um um weather disasters in america nato helped out all things

00:45:08.500 they were bombing in libya with gaddafi afghanistan afghanistan yeah they've got big big style involved

00:45:13.560 in afghanistan a little bit in iraq but definitely in afghanistan yeah all sorts of things they got their

00:45:18.520 fingers in all sorts of piers all over the world now and as for just um sort of collecting member

00:45:24.040 states it's like nato and the state department it's like the cold war never ended because cold

00:45:29.720 war was essentially to boil it down to uh maybe very low resolution but what it was was a battle

00:45:35.860 across the whole world between spheres of influence right the soviet one and the american one so every

00:45:42.120 single country in the world even places like vietnam and lao and cambodia there's there's a battle

00:45:46.900 for the hearts and minds of those countries and the economies of those countries after the soviet

00:45:52.320 the soviets fell and the burning wall came down it's sort of like in the mind of nato leaders and

00:45:58.060 other leaders in america nothing stops no nothing stops because if you look at the list of nato members

00:46:04.280 in 1995 poland hungary and the czech republic joined now just that alone if you're sitting in the kremlin

00:46:12.100 and you're thinking wait poland and hungary and czechoslovakia which sticks out like a knife towards

00:46:18.960 russia they're like that is a bit that is a bit aggressive that is a bit provocative isn't it

00:46:24.320 and in 2004 was a big moment for nato i think they call it something like the big bang or the big boom

00:46:30.060 or something like that when 2004 bulgaria estonia latvia lithuania romania slovakia and slovenia all

00:46:36.580 joined now how is that not poking the russian bear in the ribs how is it not that and they're all on

00:46:44.120 the border a lot of them yeah a lot of them are loads of them are yeah yeah it's worth mentioning

00:46:49.760 as well both and linking your previous point and the point you're now making together the the kind

00:46:55.400 of mere the kind of uh what's the word special pleading which you'll get well nato is just a

00:46:59.700 sort of peaceful military alliance it's not supposed to be provocative if they've constantly

00:47:05.120 been redefining their mission throughout the 90s and in the early 2000s then there was no reason

00:47:10.780 necessarily for russia not to feel nervous about this eastwards expansion well and just to clarify

00:47:15.840 the quote that i uh had a moment ago so i found it uh it was nato's supreme allied commander of

00:47:22.860 europe wesley clark in uh 1999 saying there is no place in modern europe for ethnically pure states

00:47:29.380 that's a 19th century idea and we are trying to transition it into the 21st century and we're going

00:47:34.580 to do it with multi-ethnic states who said that sorry uh wesley clark and he was uh the supreme allied

00:47:40.340 commander europe very interesting yes so that's that's just a complete change of the mission

00:47:45.220 statement yeah that's not what they were supposed to be that's that's a new progressive utopia yeah

00:47:51.280 it's not sort of old-fashioned geopolitical statecraft it's that but with loaded ideological

00:47:58.760 conditions attached and which is what i'm saying makes it seem much more like the warsaw pact

00:48:02.620 regardless of what you think of those ideological criteria maybe you think that's better than

00:48:05.640 the the communist one that informed the warsaw warsaw pact i mean i'm more sympathetic towards

00:48:10.780 liberal democracy than i am towards a politburo style system but it's it's certainly a change

00:48:15.860 and what you said i think it's a very good point um sort of which which way round the rationale goes

00:48:22.080 is nato just a humanitarian thing to try and keep the peace or is it actually a fairly aggressive

00:48:28.240 expansionist threat to russia whichever way you cut it um again they make the argument that like so

00:48:36.020 into in last year finland joined and if you look at a map of course finland's it's right there this

00:48:43.140 year sweden joined now pro nato people will say look look at that example look at that evidence we are

00:48:51.260 this strong brilliant even sweden and finland want to be a member because we because we've sort of got

00:48:57.160 the moral high ground because we're the good guys but it's no way is that right or did they only join

00:49:02.900 because russia's become belligerent and aggressive because nato has been constantly poking them in the

00:49:08.420 ribs right it's that post hoc ergo proper hoc thing after it therefore because of it like like being a

00:49:16.080 cry bully like poking someone until they throw a punch at your jaw and then you you claim you're the

00:49:20.380 victim it's anyway that's my feelings of about nato if they hadn't have been so expansionist really i

00:49:29.180 suppose after the fall of the soviet union as i saw it's always stuck in my mind years and years ago

00:49:36.440 it must have been the early 2000s i think putin had only been in power for about four or five years or

00:49:41.000 something like that i remember seeing him on tv and it was meant for a russian audience he was sitting

00:49:46.260 there saying he was addressing the west and nato essentially he's saying look if you don't take

00:49:53.140 the mickey out of us these are my words if you don't take the mickey out of me if you don't treat

00:49:58.080 us like you on stage yeah yeah stop taking the mickey you're having a bubble bath no if you don't if you

00:50:04.920 treat us reasonably if you don't treat us like a naughty child that you're sort of trying to keep in

00:50:11.740 line then i will be reasonable we will be reasonable you know i'm not a starling figure

00:50:16.940 but nato and the leadership they never sort of took that on board they always kept with the program it

00:50:22.980 seems to me of the cold war is that our global hegemony must keep expanding there's no other way

00:50:30.620 of doing it well and they always have some contrived reason to be able to cast russia and putin in that

00:50:37.660 villainous role by saying things along the lines of well they uh they're an authoritarian totalitarian

00:50:43.400 state and they have political prisoners they're oppressive they're repressive towards sexual and

00:50:48.760 ethnic minorities and then you do and then you have to say well you know of course political prisoners

00:50:53.600 nobody in the west would ever do anything like that julian assaj has only just been released after

00:50:58.160 years of political persecution who knows what else goes on with a lot of the journalists over here but

00:51:03.640 still you know we would never do anything like that we would never meanwhile trump's drinking from

00:51:07.720 a fire hose of 96 and diamonds may even be more than that at current time of speaking and they're

00:51:11.960 also initiating proceedings against against marine le pen in france at the moment oh yes yes yeah they

00:51:17.260 are and there's some gen six guys that were kept in solitary for ages for almost nothing about i think

00:51:22.340 some of them might even still be you know anyway i'm not i'm actually not trying to be an apologist

00:51:27.020 here for putin no he does poison and murder journalists he doesn't like and political opponents he's like

00:51:33.100 he's he's an old fsb kgb badass i'm not apologizing for putin in any way i'm just saying probable cause

00:51:41.740 for why we need to be belligerent is kind of pot calling the cattle black a bit isn't i'm just saying

00:51:46.420 the idea that nato is um just a force for good in the world and the kremlin are the absolute implacable

00:51:55.300 evil baddies it's not it it's it's there's more nuance to it than that there's more shades of

00:52:00.360 great than anything sorry

00:52:02.260 is there a rumble rant oh yes the top one for one dollar from ramshackalotta okay ramshackalotta said

00:52:10.740 every time i've discussed the expansion of nato with normally friends they've never heard of the

00:52:15.240 warsaw pact for instance they simply see us as goodies and russians as baddies yeah yeah learn a bit

00:52:22.020 of history there's loads of youtube videos well you've got a little 10 minute youtube video

00:52:26.060 explaining it your your average street normie is going to be almost completely uh cut off from any

00:52:31.480 understanding of history yeah so it's like that like there's an iron curtain still you know from

00:52:38.460 sticking in the baltic yes in the adriatic an iron curtain has descended but when you talk about

00:52:47.620 nato being nothing but a force for good again i have to point out i recently did the segment

00:52:52.520 discussing the failed peace talks at the beginning of 2022 between ukraine and russia when the conflict

00:52:59.120 had only just started and how it was western nato allies particularly people like boris johnson

00:53:05.540 who came in said that they were going to put all the weight of their support behind ukraine

00:53:09.860 and scuppered it entirely even though because it seemed that russia didn't actually want to drag on a

00:53:16.160 conflict for longer than it was going to because they didn't steamroll ukraine as they thought that

00:53:20.540 they would russia actually had a quite was giving a lot of leeway for talks even about things like

00:53:26.440 crimea which you would never have expected from somebody like putin that he was willing to put

00:53:31.240 crimea on the table even to discuss but boris johnson and other blowhards like him decided to

00:53:38.080 come along and say no keep fighting keep fighting keep fighting keep fighting and what do we see

00:53:41.880 what was it actually what good has that done for ukraine it's just got a lot of their menfolk

00:53:47.400 killed hasn't it yeah and their cities some of their cities uh pounded to rubble um so i mean if i was

00:53:54.360 prime minister i would absolutely keep our nuclear deterrent i would increase our our own armed forces but i

00:54:00.900 would leave nato i'd be like no if russia does invade poland or something or lithuania then we'll talk

00:54:06.500 about we'll talk about it then and if america wants to do whatever it wants to do okay i'm not giving

00:54:12.200 loads of money and materiel and and men to nato anymore it's a cold war relic thing we don't need

00:54:20.520 it it's actually destabilizing things in the grandest sense if anything let me know in the

00:54:24.960 comments if you think that's a crazy wrong-headed take there you go so just finish up because i think

00:54:29.800 we're going over time a little bit or beginning to um there is this thing going on at the moment the

00:54:34.400 75th anniversary summit of nato and biden's there samson if you could just click through a few of

00:54:38.940 them we'll just look at the headlines really just click through there you go biden pledges uh even

00:54:43.220 more um uh defensive weapons for ukraine to shoot uh russian airplanes and missiles out which will

00:54:51.880 have to be made by american troops on ukrainian soil so that's great kia starmer's asking everyone

00:54:57.820 else to spend more of their money on it uh next one um yeah again same thing other people need to

00:55:06.040 spend a bit more money but we but we well i won't promise britain will though um okay uh cheeky a bit

00:55:15.280 we'll see he's sort of he keeps making weird uh pronouncements about how much he's going to spend

00:55:21.180 on defense whether he's going to increase it or not we'll see i suspect they'll make some sort of

00:55:25.420 decision on the policy in the next week or two i think they would have to but we'll see

00:55:29.940 if he increases increases uh defense spending in the uk or not i don't think keir starmer has made

00:55:36.020 a single announcement ever that he hasn't immediately contradicted in another interview the day after

00:55:41.620 well at least he hasn't said we're doing away with our nuclear deterrent um because that was a fear

00:55:47.440 any labor prime minister it's a little bit of a fear that they might do that i mean corbyn

00:55:51.100 sort of basically said he probably would or corbyn said um said he wouldn't use it he said he

00:55:56.140 wouldn't use it which is it makes it completely pointless tantamount the same thing um and yeah

00:56:01.820 and so coming out of the white house and the state department and the pentagon is still this line

00:56:06.280 that just as long as it takes whatever it takes for ukraine to to in air air quotes win i mean what

00:56:13.560 does it even look like i mean well it's almost like to the nuclear option and i'm saying that tongue

00:56:19.480 in cheek as a as a play on words if nato or the white house want to do a regime change in russia

00:56:26.920 just do it stop trying to drag the rest of the world into it stop stop um sacrificing english

00:56:33.320 ukrainian lives then if you're hell-bent nato on removing putin just do it but also and i'll try to

00:56:41.560 see how far you get but also don't do it yeah but also don't punch us into world war three please

00:56:46.840 but also don't get me and my family killed yeah i wouldn't appreciate it i'd rather not have a

00:56:51.440 nuclear winter if we if that's an option yeah uh but this last thing just say here's a is a

00:56:56.680 a twitter post from nato and sort of you know look how orwellian it is sorry is that a woman

00:57:02.900 yeah yeah okay oh so so we've got to the point where ukraine is going yes we will sacrifice our

00:57:08.560 women as well this is what a successful nation does in a war that they're winning is that they send

00:57:14.480 the women to the front line blonde-haired blue-eyed scandinavian and eastern ukraine

00:57:18.260 in fairness it is yeah that's a good point it is better than than in peacetime when they will sort

00:57:23.300 of flirt with the idea we need more ethnic minorities in the army we need more but once

00:57:27.820 things kick off all the adverts have like big white dudes that's true but also once this conflict is

00:57:32.800 over and ukraine's uh demographics and population have been depleted yeah where do you think that uh

00:57:39.440 nato and you aligns ukraine is going to be replenishing its population from i don't know

00:57:44.300 what you're suggesting now i hate to agree with guardianista types but you know even a stop clock

00:57:49.020 is right sometimes and i'm not a pacifist i think pacifism is sort of wrong-headed if someone attacks

00:57:55.840 you or someone invades your country you're morally obliged to fight back but just the orwellian nature

00:58:00.480 of this nato means uh means not being alone nato means protecting each other nato means living in

00:58:07.660 freedom does it nato means peace no it doesn't it doesn't it explicitly doesn't really uh and you

00:58:13.440 got people like this no nato means terror nato means destruction of families uprooting countries

00:58:18.600 death and genocide uh you know the guy i hate to agree with him but nato means world war three

00:58:24.020 loss of independence loss of sovereignty fascism is a bit far it's not actually oh yeah yeah because

00:58:31.580 in the mussolini style sense of fascism it isn't at all because because fascism was about

00:58:36.080 transitioning to multi-ethnic states for the 21st century that's what i think that was in

00:58:41.340 giovanni gentile wasn't it yeah yeah if you can mind quite that it's in the footnotes i think

00:58:46.020 yes no it's an unknown footnote okay so that's my take about nato and a little dig at nato and i'll

00:58:53.520 probably uh get some heat in the comments from pro nato people about that but there you go okay let's

00:58:58.780 move on to our third segment yeah well oh yes we've got one from cranky texan aimed for you bo

00:59:05.180 they say i almost fell off my chair yesterday when both failed to recognize the common enemy

00:59:10.740 of the communists and the islamists it's christians their culture and their entire civilization well i

00:59:16.520 did leave that unsaid but um it was sort of implied but no fair point and thank you for the thank you

00:59:21.660 for the 20 bucks they've sent in appreciate that thank you cranky texan yeah thank you shall we get

00:59:29.080 onto the conservative civil war the phony civil war it's the phony civil that's crucial um is peter

00:59:35.900 hitchens going to write a book about this one well probably not because he's always unpredictable at

00:59:40.280 these well it's sort of in the genes isn't it um the hitchens family i shouldn't have mentioned his

00:59:46.800 name i'm sorry you're getting you're getting some trouble from him at the moment uh no no no no i'm

00:59:51.840 not personally and i'm not i'm not looking forward to the at later on on twitter so let's just carry

00:59:56.940 right right uh you know apologies in advance for bringing up the conservative party and for

01:00:01.640 bringing up the election i don't know if people are bored of election talk um but but as everyone

01:00:06.080 knows there is now a tory rump of just 121 or so mps left you can see the the rough breakdown on the

01:00:13.760 map they're much depleted from their uh 2019 uh achievement under the political realignment

01:00:20.700 uh built by boris johnson and then immediately betrayed by boris johnson just about everyone who

01:00:27.060 who um had a hand in what's gone on in britain over the last five years uh but but in my view

01:00:32.200 so there's a there's a there's a there's a fight for the soul of the conservative party going on you'll

01:00:36.540 see all sorts of um tedious slightly platitudinous headlines to that effect in all of the national

01:00:42.600 newspapers um but in my view rumors of a civil war in the party have been greatly exaggerated

01:00:47.160 uh if there is one it's foregone conclusion i think will make it look exceedingly phony and

01:00:52.920 pointless in retrospect and uh the reason why i say that how how gay race communist is the tory

01:01:00.700 party going to be after this civil war as gay race communist as it is at the moment which is why it's

01:01:06.260 a phony civil war okay so it's nothing changed yeah it has a foregone yeah i think it has a foregone

01:01:10.240 conclusion baked into it because they could always go a little bit more oh they might intensify but

01:01:14.900 that's that's going to be the only question oh thank god i thought we were dealing with a

01:01:19.180 completely different party for a moment in many ways i think this makes things a lot easier but

01:01:22.560 what i'm saying is that and i it should become clear over the course of this segment why why i

01:01:27.220 think this but i think i think as people on the right who are very keen to see or even many people

01:01:33.160 who are not economically on the right but people who are sort of culturally and socially

01:01:36.100 on the right and who are sort of patriotic people who care about this country and its people

01:01:40.740 should um not get too invested in the conservative party civil war uh because i think there's very

01:01:47.020 little to be enjoyed from it as a spectacle and even less to be achieved from it as people

01:01:52.020 uh for people like us and this is because the vast majority from what from what i've been able

01:01:57.860 to garner on social media and through other mediums and particularly at cchq the higher ups the top

01:02:02.960 brass who who really run things i think i wish i'd included this in the segment steven edgington sent me a

01:02:09.100 text message that steven edgington of gb news friend of a friend of both uh the load seaters in

01:02:14.600 the new culture from sent me a text message the other day asking me to comment on a gb news piece

01:02:17.900 he was he was rustling up i don't actually know whether my comment made it into his piece but and i

01:02:22.280 didn't include it but apparently in the course of the election this was the day before the election

01:02:26.340 in cchq they had all of the you know the trans flag all of the progress flag all of that stuff was

01:02:32.640 the office was completely smothered in that so cchq is clearly captured and those are the higher ups

01:02:38.200 people who really dictate how things go on uh in the aftermath of this historic defeat but they

01:02:43.320 precisely so both cchq and and people in the sort of centrist dad punditry class seem intent on

01:02:49.740 learning all of the wrong lessons does look like that from the historic defeat and i'm so glad that

01:02:55.460 certain people decided to make a crusade to ensure that the party didn't get zero seats you okay you

01:03:01.800 want to make it you want to flesh out that comment that's no i think i'll leave it you don't want to

01:03:06.200 i'll leave that hanging i don't want the ads and stubbornly so drawing all the incorrect

01:03:12.680 conclusions and stubbornly ignoring all of the the correct ones and so they seemingly incapable of

01:03:18.480 sober self-reflection self-examination self-criticism the beginnings of wisdom um they have instead sort

01:03:24.600 of gone into full-blown huffy teenager mode and so if we can go to the next uh slide i'm not gifted

01:03:30.740 oh here we go okay it happened almost by magic do i just click next is it that simple yes okay very

01:03:38.920 good uh so tom jones uh whom i like uh very much and i i couldn't actually so i'll read it first

01:03:44.600 watching several sky news commentators joe johnson uh boris johnson's younger brother

01:03:49.220 but andy burnham assert the tory's problem is that they are reform light our net immigration figures

01:03:54.240 approaching one million the highest tax burden since world war ii and highest spending since the 70s

01:03:58.620 part of reforms policy platform an obviously correct point by tom jones that i would also

01:04:03.740 i remember what i was watching sky news uh at the time as well because i was i happened to be in

01:04:08.240 poland uh during the election and we can't access the bbc so i um i was watching i was i was part of

01:04:14.580 a group of people who were watching it on sky news and i actually saw joe johnson's comments they

01:04:18.440 didn't make a huge amount of sense at all that's to be expected and i would and i and i would have um

01:04:23.380 i would have drawn up the clip but he's clearly not a huge huge draw sky news have not been

01:04:27.140 promoting it on their social media so i've just got tom jones's testimony there but i can i can

01:04:31.020 vouch for it that um this was precisely these were precisely the kind of claims that joe johnson and

01:04:36.580 other people in the conservative party have been making that a kind of imaginary lurch to the right

01:04:40.640 is responsible for the conservative defeat where i take this this isn't the welsh singer tom jones

01:04:46.820 no no no like you see people like rory stewart um um yeah and all the wet who voted what labor or

01:04:54.280 labor or lib dem i think he oh it was green i think he threatened to yeah i think it was green or labor

01:04:59.060 that he was going to vote for wasn't it yeah just like some weirdo puppet of some shadowy globalist

01:05:04.180 who knows what um yeah they're basically saying yeah the idea that the tories should go back to

01:05:10.540 actual conservativism with the small c is sort of crazy they need to be more wet if anything

01:05:17.060 precisely i mean yeah then they haven't learned anything then they're sort of kind of deliberately

01:05:21.860 refusing to learn any lessons totally then it seems totally and highly adjacent to rory stewart

01:05:27.720 um who will get more on him later actually rory stewart to remind everybody who has a podcast with

01:05:33.900 alistair campbell yes says everything you need to know right there doesn't it there you go well

01:05:37.480 that's the uni party in action my favorite thing about that is that i so i do sometimes tune into

01:05:42.220 that because i i i read the economist all the time so i'd like to get a i view it as a sort of um very

01:05:48.600 helpful and instructive portal into the centrist liberal dad midwit normie mind to to watch these

01:05:54.600 sorts of things and to read that sort of material and i always look at the comments as well and it's

01:05:58.160 so hilarious when you see people comment things like gosh it's so refreshing to see people who are so

01:06:03.120 politically at odds disagreeing with each other in a really really amiable way i'm

01:06:07.420 like oh my gosh there's a cigarette paper separating those two people yeah jesus christ

01:06:11.520 you know what do they think politics is they'll get gary lineker on as a guest exactly contentious

01:06:16.780 debate again what you're experiencing watching that podcast is the liberal establishment consensus

01:06:22.560 yes being to being fed to you that's what you're experiencing indeed a circle jerk yes sorry is

01:06:28.540 that a bit too no that's fine go for it david gork is making exactly the same point i think he's

01:06:34.220 now actually out of the party but he i guarantee you that he will be regarded as one of the god

01:06:39.660 one of one of the sensible figures on the right by precisely the kinds of people who are the top

01:06:43.920 brass in cchq and he now writes for the new statesman um the tories will keep losing if they

01:06:48.560 chase reform votes my new statesman piece on why a party that needs to recover a reputation for

01:06:53.460 competence and integrity can't win by making big undeliverable and populist promises and it's worth

01:06:59.160 saying here that uh low immigration levels which is obviously what he's referring to there and

01:07:03.440 sort of you know undeliverable promises were somehow possible in the 1990s and this is particularly

01:07:08.500 ironic because the 1990s are regarded by people like david gork as a kind of golden age the early

01:07:13.920 1990s of conservative governance led by sensible centrists like john major john major even wrote a

01:07:19.020 very very um warm what would be the word a very warm review of this book that um that uh david gork

01:07:26.740 rory stewart along with another bunch of wets have written called uh oh that's not it oh there we

01:07:32.320 go there we go called the case for the center right now if we can go down i don't know how to do that

01:07:37.180 you can look at all these tory figures who've made book chapter testimonials contributions to this book

01:07:43.280 and there they all are oh all of these people's um david gork uh key among them but but and john

01:07:50.100 major wrote a very sort of warm review of this book and it's hilarious because by the standards that

01:07:53.620 looking at a police lineup i wish by the standards that people like john major invoke today

01:07:59.980 and people who like john major as well their own sort of 90s paradise was some kind of forthright

01:08:05.740 hellhole in terms of immigration in terms of immigration rates because if you go back how do

01:08:09.680 i go back to the on the slides there we go oh yeah andrew neil versus no one more back oh okay just

01:08:15.560 back to here yeah just look at i mean i mean 1990s doesn't particularly stand out as an era of

01:08:20.100 mass immigration there and yet people like david gork will today say that returning to that is

01:08:24.580 undeliverable when it's the precisely the period that he that he deifies they seem to want the

01:08:29.420 stability and and culture of the early 1990s whilst keeping the insane immigration levels that we have

01:08:38.700 today not seemingly being willfully ignorant uh that the fact that the two are completely

01:08:45.220 incompatible you had michael heseltine on there the lord heseltine and john major as well um these guys

01:08:52.420 are sort of diehard pro-labor guys you think because they're sort of old school tories they're not

01:08:58.900 necessarily sort of bought into the european project but no they are like um kenneth clark as

01:09:05.580 well they're like diehard diehard like as much as blair or anyone pro euro and if they could have had it

01:09:12.500 you know probably open borders and things yeah um but what i think where this guy said you know using

01:09:17.420 populism the word populism as a pejorative is just uh just a dirty word populism i reject all of that

01:09:23.080 nonsense and i'm not having that uh because you can have left and right wing populism can't you can

01:09:27.580 have you can have sort of lefty populism so anyway the word in and of itself isn't isn't a dirty word yes

01:09:33.320 but i think what we're missing these days you know he described it as sort of undeliverable

01:09:37.580 where i was talking in the last segment about sort of geopolitics and sort of post-war and world war

01:09:43.700 ii stuff governments used to have guts they used to have balls they used to have like a vision where

01:09:50.840 we'll change we'll change the game we'll change the way politics is done we'll change the map

01:09:56.020 like we've got we fear nothing yes there's sort of nothing we can't do within reason obviously in the

01:10:03.820 laws of physics yes no we'll do this massive thing which changes the world it changes the course of

01:10:09.580 history no do it they'll do it all the time nowadays nowadays or the idea of putting um using

01:10:15.600 the royal navy to secure the channel well it's not deliverable it's not possible we can't do it

01:10:19.600 exactly come on i like how you compare it to the laws of physics as well because

01:10:22.960 they it means it necessarily means that they if they're saying that uh mass mass immigration rates

01:10:29.100 like the 19 restoring mass immigration rates to levels comparable to the 1990s

01:10:33.620 is on a it's almost as if it's on a par with a kind of climactic weather event that you just

01:10:38.180 for politicians just have to react to this this is just the world we live in it's clearly it's

01:10:41.860 clearly not true these things are eminently controllable and they've been and and and our

01:10:45.700 political classes refuse to control them our politicians are just a completely different

01:10:49.160 class of person now the sort of people that were ruled by are the boring managerial types who

01:10:56.020 in any other life would have been completely unremarkable they're weak cowards they're cowards

01:11:03.740 they're afraid to have a big strong policy that the mainstream media might be angry about yes they're

01:11:10.120 afraid of it they're scared of it they really are so this this idea then that uh that um and again

01:11:15.680 an imaginary lurch of the right was responsible for the was going to be responsible for the conservative

01:11:21.460 party's complete implosion not as much as much of an implosion as some of us might have might have

01:11:25.240 liked it must be said but this was unconvincing even before the election i found this interesting

01:11:29.340 um rory stewart was on the back foot in the face of andrew neil's no nonsense uh questioning um on

01:11:37.320 precisely this point and this is bear in mind this is just before the election a couple of days before

01:11:41.140 and andrew neil asks i think the salient questions to rory stewart who so often gets away with just

01:11:46.000 you know signaling in a way which seems intelligent it doesn't it doesn't actually make detailed points

01:11:52.040 in what way have the tories been too right wing these past five years or so bar the trust interregnum

01:11:59.840 give you that one but that was only five days 45 days in what ways have the tories been too right

01:12:05.100 wing since 2019 i i think my major problem if you forget about uh liz truss is that boris johnson

01:12:13.160 broke what was most precious to me about the conservative party which was a sense of seriousness

01:12:18.260 a sense of integrity i think he was a ludicrous buffoon who was casual with the constitution

01:12:26.360 contemptuous of parliament and generally right wing that's that's that's boris johnson right but you

01:12:35.480 know i being a conservative for me is not just about economic policies it's about a way of viewing the

01:12:42.080 world the way of behaving in the world but i still i mean when i look at the record of that look

01:12:49.200 they're obviously uh in a bad way but this sort of mantra alistair campbell would go along with to

01:12:57.360 to your your partner that this is such a right-wing tory government that it needs to become have you

01:13:03.600 look at it we've already talked taxes at a revel record level that's not very right right wing record

01:13:10.800 public spending well it's not very right wing record immigration record regulation of businesses

01:13:17.140 and life some of that can be right some of that can be wrong it's not a it's not right wing red blue

01:13:25.720 and tooth and claw is it i agree i agree i mean one of the stupid things about this election

01:13:30.540 right there you go then he agrees he completely falls under scrutiny he's such an empty bag i know

01:13:35.520 he's a nothing thing it was all guff like just okay you don't like boris johnson i don't particularly

01:13:40.080 like him either i actually would agree with some of those criticisms about johnson being a cavalier

01:13:43.340 buffoon again for different reasons that he would he would invoke things like prorogation which is

01:13:48.040 actually a perfectly legitimate constitutional device maybe you cynically but it is legitimate

01:13:52.520 but in any case if he agrees then why is he contributing books to chapters titled the case for

01:13:57.280 the center right or as though the you know it makes no sense whatsoever so this was unconvincing

01:14:01.420 why didn't he do anything yeah why didn't he do anything but make the party more left-wing why is

01:14:07.260 he now saying oh we need to go back and make it even more left-wing because it was too right-wing

01:14:12.560 indeed indeed so this was unconvincing this again this is before the election and now it's even more

01:14:18.080 unconvincing now because guess what we actually have dispassionately put together data not just

01:14:23.240 vibes lacking any kind of detail and um i'm going to uh well let me preface this by saying that um

01:14:30.080 the the really unfortunate thing and why the reason why i think this is going to be a phony civil war is

01:14:34.660 that i think this argument made by the stewart types the david gawk types the joe johnson types

01:14:38.800 the penny mordaunt types the jeremy hunt types relics of the cameroon cameron era will have a per even

01:14:44.980 though they're wrong they will have a purchase in within the conservative party because it is no longer

01:14:49.340 duty bound even to pretend to care about the red wall voters they so monumentally betrayed

01:14:54.320 from 2019 onwards and so the red wall collapsed in the election we now have that evidence

01:14:58.600 and so according to a deep dive published recently by focal data i highly recommend that people click

01:15:03.580 on the link um i've been i've embedded it in the in the in the show notes but it should be available

01:15:09.060 afterwards as well uh which goes into all of the kind of demographic data on on what happened um on

01:15:15.940 the fourth of july a couple of weeks ago whenever it was six days ago um so quote quote from that

01:15:22.320 article labor rebuilt the red wall with a vote share of 41 percent despite climbing just three

01:15:28.320 percentage points on their 2019 achievement the party won 37 of the 38 red wall seats with ashfield

01:15:34.920 of course the anderson seat going to reform uk the conservatives lost all 28 red wall seats they won in

01:15:41.100 2019 dropping 24 percentage points in the process and there's the supporting graphic uh undergirding

01:15:46.380 all of that there so that's the red wall and that's now completely gone so the parliamentary voice

01:15:51.060 for people who have to impress and please those voters who are so crucial to the 29 victory

01:15:57.580 now no longer exist in the parliamentary conservative party which is of course very crucial when it comes

01:16:02.840 to deciding new leaders when it comes to deciding new direction of travel um so so that is obviously a

01:16:08.100 concern so this argument that the argument the kind of argument that we would make is not going to have

01:16:11.680 any purchase at all the kind of vague uh platitudes you know um um hoary platitudes wheeled out by david

01:16:19.580 gawk are going to be particularly salient and this is why because if we look turn out of the blue wall

01:16:25.220 uh they and obviously the tories did badly everywhere on the map um they lost seats among the blue wall as

01:16:32.460 well but nowhere near as badly so these mps exactly the kind of people who are going to be more closely

01:16:36.940 aligned with wets from the cameron era like jeremy hunt will be heavily incentivized to make the

01:16:41.580 conservative party even more socially liberal even more um metropolitan and even more globalist at a

01:16:47.040 sort of policy prospectus level and at a kind of personnel level when it comes to just to selecting a

01:16:52.200 future leader and so they these are precisely the kind of people who are going to continue blaming

01:16:56.460 their overwhelming loss on this sort of imaginary lurch to the right i wonder at what point

01:17:02.760 the conservatives if ever um if they go down to you know almost nothing at what point they they will

01:17:10.780 spawn a a new robert peel a new thatcher at what point will they ever win their own heart and soul

01:17:20.120 back i sort of hope they don't um maybe that's just too spiteful but um i wonder if it'll ever happen

01:17:27.280 it's not going to happen in the next leadership race it's not so therefore it won't happen in the next

01:17:32.760 few years at the very very least and so that whatever the outcome of this phony civil war

01:17:37.200 that's underway then whatever the outcome is is not going to be that decisive because that person

01:17:41.540 is not going to to emerge and so who's on the other side of this phony civil war then so we've

01:17:48.240 seen the wets we'll get to it promise all right i mean so well a bravman obviously you've got these

01:17:53.520 people in this party who are who are maybe we have our certain views about how we can get to that in a

01:17:57.800 minute but there are people on the party who sort of code right wing and they are going to try and

01:18:01.900 benefit from this moment as well and whatever suspicions we might have about swella bravman's

01:18:05.740 own personal motive whether she was an effective home secretary or there are all these criticisms

01:18:08.940 which can still be made i grant readily grant that people like um robert jenrich is going to try and

01:18:13.820 make a kind of right-wing immigration restrictionist pitch as well i would suspect but the question is

01:18:17.960 is there any point in having this civil war in the first place i mean who because i think it's

01:18:22.020 foregone conclusion is so set in stone and it's partly because of data like this so i'll just read out

01:18:25.860 quickly because i think we're um sensitive on on time as well so again from from uh focal data again

01:18:33.520 well worth reading the liberal democrats won a majority of blue wall seats with the party picking

01:18:37.960 up 23 of these 43 seats that were won by the conservatives in 2019 labor's vote share 17

01:18:43.940 percent did not move one bit but the party gained nine seats again the story of the night labor is not

01:18:49.260 particularly popular they're benefiting from people staying at home people not voting tory voting reform

01:18:53.380 whatever it might be with the conservatives reduced to just 11 so there are still 11 conservative

01:18:57.420 mps which is you know 10 percent of 11 too many 11 way 11 too many who are going to be

01:19:02.980 wanting to impress these sorts of voters um and um yeah so i think the the the argument that people

01:19:10.860 like stewart and gawk and amber rudd and all these people make is going to have a particular purchase

01:19:15.960 not just because of those 11 mps but but certainly they're going to have more purchase than uh people

01:19:20.980 than um would be the case if there was a kind of huge red wall rump left over um there are some

01:19:26.480 people it must be said rather than just being relentlessly negative who who do seem to get it

01:19:30.680 again the point is it doesn't really matter that much miriam k lost her seats but she put out this

01:19:34.400 on on on x a perfectly shrewd remark the conservative party must be honest about what

01:19:39.220 happened our voters stayed at home or moved to reform that's clearly the lesson of the night

01:19:42.760 they didn't go to labor labor's vote share was not at all impressive the future for the party does

01:19:47.260 not lie in liberalism or progressivism we must be firmly conservative lean into the realignment of

01:19:51.300 2019 at a policy level not just at a personnel johnson loving level if we want to win back our

01:19:56.380 base we also had robert jenrich who i think who did um hold on to a seat and who i imagine is going to

01:20:01.400 try and be precisely that kind of peel figure i'm saying my point is that i don't think he will

01:20:05.840 succeed and i don't think he happens to be that person anyway no who said we have just suffered our

01:20:10.660 worst ever defeat we lost because we failed to deliver the strong economy nhs and border we promised

01:20:15.380 slightly slightly less um uh guns are blazing than than miriam kates to recover we must defend all

01:20:21.580 that we got right while confronting what we got wrong again it's quite corporate ceo type pros and

01:20:26.540 cons stuff but he but he but he does get um the fact that it was a failure to deliver rather than

01:20:32.640 making promises which are overwrought which is what david gawk's trying to say and then obviously

01:20:36.920 no surprise to see that eric kaufman one of the shrewdest observers in the business and a friend both to

01:20:42.340 this show and to the new culture forum perfectly grasped why the tories lost so monumentally he

01:20:46.220 actually um quotes data from this focal data page that i keep saying people should read and they

01:20:50.840 really should um the tories held their remain vote and lost much of their leave vote look at that

01:20:54.580 monumental difference between them holding the remain and a 42 point drop among uh leave voters

01:20:59.800 um astounding that there are still tory voices calling for the party to move to the cultural left

01:21:04.000 exclamation mark that speaks volumes doesn't it it really does it that is the betrayal that people

01:21:10.500 felt yeah just right there totally totally it's interesting leave voters seem to have gone over to

01:21:16.680 reform yes but also to labor yes and that remain voters uh weren't as enthusiastic about labor

01:21:22.380 according to those views that he was putting there as well indeed so there's labor are there for the

01:21:26.900 taking and that's what surprises me about people still seem to like people like suela breverman or

01:21:32.500 preety patel it's like no they were home secretaries and they flooded us with foreign fifth columnists

01:21:39.500 dooming us to a secretarian future well i always something maybe uh nightmarish that was done under

01:21:47.480 preety patel and suela breverman oh they tried it was it was the home office that wouldn't allow them

01:21:51.900 to i don't care no that was your job that was your remit to go to war with them then and you failed

01:21:57.500 well that's what that's the one that i always bring up though suela breverman she may have talked

01:22:02.660 tough when it came to him to actually wrangling all of the people in the home office to do the job

01:22:07.260 that they're paid without tax money for she couldn't do it rishi sunak's massive promise to stop the

01:22:12.980 small boats you didn't stop the small boats in any way shape or form so that's what you get

01:22:18.000 precisely this and and and and that and the the fact that the fact that those are the main reasons for

01:22:24.520 their defeat becomes so obvious when you look at the the map electorally and sort of tease out

01:22:28.720 certain trends so reform uk came second in almost 100 seats across the country it's extraordinary

01:22:33.900 great yeah brilliant roughly two-thirds of lost tory seats had a reform vote larger than the swing

01:22:38.600 away from the conservatives and then matt gudwin also draws out uh many key lessons including this

01:22:43.680 one in a in a in a sub stack post tories lost the working class i'm not going to read all of it

01:22:48.020 but um where was i going to read from i was going to read from but while boris johnson the tories

01:22:52.960 in 2019 won over more than half these voters this year they only won about one in four of them

01:22:56.840 with nigel farage and reform now making major inroads and winning nearly as many indeed across

01:23:01.000 europe blah blah blah the tories in other words are back to being a party that is most successful

01:23:05.280 here we go among the economically secure middle class having lost the earlier unique opening among

01:23:10.500 the working class this does not bode well for the party's future given labors and also the lib

01:23:15.100 dems and greens appeal to middle class graduate liberals and at the other end of the spectrum nigel

01:23:18.920 farage's strong appeal to the working class this competition for working class votes will be a

01:23:23.760 major point of debate among the looming battle for the future of the british right but as we've

01:23:26.820 discovered precisely the kind of people who are left over in that parliamentary rump have every reason

01:23:30.920 to chase those sort of labor voters those lib dem voters and those green voters and they're going to

01:23:35.960 sort of turn up their nose at farage voters and they're unlikely to to to um be willing to fight a

01:23:41.960 civil war on their behalf and within a party let's put it that way it's the net result of all of this

01:23:45.860 uh kimmy badenock yes she's so she is well i haven't i'm not i wasn't going to mention her here

01:23:52.960 because she sort of warrants uh special treatment because she's a very strange one because she's one

01:23:57.600 of those people along with suele braverman i would say who kind of codes right wing but should be

01:24:02.860 uh suspected i actually think she's more suspicious than braverman i think braverman is a little bit

01:24:06.840 more sincere though potentially ineffective and uh uh focusing on braverman for the sure so focusing on

01:24:13.720 braverman for the moment i'll just uh truncate this a bit so no doubt with her eyes on the tory

01:24:18.580 leadership contest suele braverman has now declared kind of an all-out war having won her

01:24:22.600 seat she is called on the tories to abandon quote unquote liberal conservatism and rustle up a quote

01:24:27.300 credible offer for the voters they lost to reform uk so she gets it at a kind of electoral level and

01:24:33.140 she even said in a recent natcon speech at which both uh carl benjamin and connor tomlinson of course

01:24:37.540 present at the moment we tory ministers nominally in charge of the system completely failed the progress

01:24:42.020 flag flew over our buildings as if they were occupied territory i wanted to scrap the unconscious bias

01:24:45.980 training which basically taught people how bad and racist britain was i was told that i was on the

01:24:49.340 wrong side of history by my senior civil servant i don't say this to boast or curry favor with you

01:24:52.900 as an audience but to start to confess my failure i couldn't even get the flag of a horrible political

01:24:56.420 campaign i disagree with taken down from the roof of the government department i was supposed to be in

01:25:00.280 charge of so she's all out declaring war and she's clearly eyeing up a kind of at the level of

01:25:06.260 rhetoric at least maybe at the level of substance as well sort of right wing takeover of the

01:25:10.660 conservative party but the point is i don't think this is going to happen that's a bit weak isn't

01:25:13.680 it yeah that's very weak it's disingenuous i couldn't yeah you could you could have fired

01:25:17.200 your top dick pass just because the guardian and probably the mail would say oh this is she's gone

01:25:22.600 too far and uh who they think they're they're a tyranny no she could have grabbed the home office by

01:25:28.300 the scruff of the neck and forced the government's policy through she didn't do it she didn't do it

01:25:33.360 and i don't think she'll get a second chance either and this is the point i love that the message

01:25:38.820 seems to be support me i failed yeah if you want strong leadership don't look for me because i'm

01:25:45.200 bad at this meanwhile of course and you know the reason why i think even if she were to have a

01:25:49.300 second chance well she's not even going to get a second chance at succeeding is that both as i'm

01:25:53.940 sure viewers will know karl benjamin and conor thompson have recently been suspended for the

01:25:58.040 conservative party so they seem intent seriously on learning all of the wrong lessons i don't think

01:26:02.060 suella braverman's bid whether we think it's sincere or not is going to have any kind of purchase so

01:26:06.960 i think that this stuff is a gift to any truly patriotic movement aiming to supplant the tories

01:26:11.380 over the next uh five years uh in my view though the conservative party is an irredeemable political

01:26:16.100 organism certainly not certainly not worth fighting a civil war for there's nothing to be salvaged

01:26:20.040 and once this phony civil war is over we should waste no time devoting our energy towards more

01:26:24.720 productive pursuits and indeed if necessary towards more productive infighting based wonderful i will just

01:26:30.900 point out regarding the carl and connor thing it's been pointed out by others but just have it on record on

01:26:35.380 here i think what might have really done it in for both of them carl especially was calling that

01:26:40.540 the party that they were members of get zero seats that might might have done connor fair to him

01:26:48.160 called for maybe five or six

01:26:50.460 but calling for destruction of your own party might be why they might have worked a few people down at

01:26:58.460 cchq yeah and let's try and get through these video comments as quickly as possible then

01:27:03.760 pressure points to release the sinus headaches the congestion maybe eye strain take your power

01:27:25.480 fingers bring them to the inner corners of your eyebrows let your head hang off of them it might

01:27:32.940 feel sore once it's less sore keep moving your fingers along the inner bottom ridge until you are

01:27:41.160 at the outer corner where you drag your fingers down behind your ear down your neck and now see how you

01:27:48.760 feel so that was pressure points to relieve um headaches and so i think that was an excuse to

01:27:56.000 flip us off half a minute i actually have had sinusitis once which is a an infection of the sinus it was

01:28:02.520 my upper sinus which is a lot smaller and uh it was terrible so anything that can help with

01:28:07.540 relieving sinus pressure some people out there it was like someone was trying to burrow out of my

01:28:12.140 head some of the worst pains i've ever had um so i actually appreciate any advice on that

01:28:16.700 oh there you go give that a try next time yeah let's go to cs hey this is a request to carl and

01:28:22.160 or connor when you get onto timcast irl can you make sure that he reads my super chat because i spent a

01:28:29.160 lot of money on super chats to that guy and he never bloody reads them and my meme must infect his show

01:28:36.100 come on guys don't be greedy and keep me all to yourselves

01:28:40.160 one personal note directly from me to mr cooper

01:28:45.020 is um i'm working on polishing one of my novels for him it will take weeks more yet but hey there

01:28:51.120 you go if you're watching you can be published by the end of the year

01:28:54.620 on cape breton island lies the village of lewisborg which in the 18th century held a large fort and

01:29:02.840 harbor from which the french raided new england shipping earning it the name the american dunkirk

01:29:07.900 lewisborg was captured by new england colonial forces during king george's war the american

01:29:13.060 theater of the war of austrian succession which was returned to france in the highly contentious

01:29:17.880 treaty of isla chapelle from madras in india souring british american relations and instigating ideas of

01:29:24.200 independence very interesting tidbit there if anyone's interested i do have an epochs episode all

01:29:29.820 about clive clive of india where that gets mentioned that exact thing gets mentioned that our

01:29:34.900 carnatic wars in india and we're trading off stuff with france uh very interesting if complicated bit

01:29:39.640 of history i went to a castle in wales last year i forget which one it is but it's got the full

01:29:44.160 display of everything that clive of india brought back with him oh right okay in wales yes in wales

01:29:49.660 is really interesting so i'd recommend if you look that up i can't remember the name of the castle but

01:29:54.660 it was a really good castle as well when i worked for the council i learned that the very tips of

01:30:00.400 wind turbine blades go supersonic which really messes with bats but they built them anyway when

01:30:06.780 we were buying a house we almost bought one with bats in the loft until we learned that we would

01:30:11.200 effectively be entering into a contract with the bats because they owned the loft in perpetuity if

01:30:17.100 there are bats there they own the place you're merely a tenant and you can't play loud music or turn

01:30:22.180 the light on up there without it being an actual crime bloody hell interesting but yeah there's all

01:30:28.340 sorts of laws in place about bats it's funny she said yeah it's absolutely true um if you find bats

01:30:33.840 if you're trying to buy a property and there's bats in it walk away look for something else it's just

01:30:38.400 going to be a pain in the arse too much trouble forever yeah you can't screw with bats in this country

01:30:43.440 i live in a town in ontario that has complained of having its pride crossing vandalized

01:30:50.220 in the build-up to june the local authorities took it upon themselves to repaint the crossing with the

01:30:55.120 progress pride markings not satisfied with that they also dug up and resurfaced the crossing only

01:31:01.200 before laying down the paint notably this is the only time i've known a roan to be closed and reopened

01:31:06.480 for work precisely on schedule well predictably within days it had been defaced and only a few days

01:31:12.320 into july and we're right back where we started however this is a notable climb down

01:31:17.220 oh yeah actually that's interesting

01:31:20.960 well the pride flag okay there's the pride flag the rainbow flag okay right but then those other

01:31:27.940 chevron shaped colors aren't some of those about intergenerational love i.e pedophilia

01:31:34.180 like the light blue and the light pink i thought the light blue and the light pink i'm pretty certain

01:31:40.500 is the trans flag okay and some of the colors do represent though like intergenerational love is

01:31:46.240 love on that father there might be some variations but i know the the blue and the pink is trans and

01:31:53.100 the other colors have nothing to do with sexuality whatsoever it's just here's black and brown people

01:31:58.720 as well right for some for some reason just shoehorn anything you want in there now yeah pretty much

01:32:04.560 on the subject of labor not having a long lifespan because they don't have a popular mandate i have

01:32:12.760 to observe that the communists took over russia without a popular mandate either and maintain power

01:32:18.720 for 70 years simply through brute power politics labor could accomplish this pretty well just by you

01:32:26.000 know jailing all of their main opponents releasing all the actual criminals amnestying all the illegals and

01:32:31.940 importing another billion for good measure yeah it's actually remarkable when you look at what

01:32:37.680 lenin did after the the um october stroke november revolution it's i mean that is ballsy we talk about

01:32:44.680 governments having balls it's just kind of crazy it's just like yeah just send men to just take that

01:32:50.360 building and hold it and that one and that one now all comers see if you can take it off of us out of

01:32:57.180 our cold dead hands nobody could brutal that's it brutal three years of a war yeah

01:33:01.600 yeah i have a simple question do you guys think we will have a world war three and that question

01:33:09.220 comes from one place not from geopolitics because you could examine that all day and say yes or no

01:33:15.200 but from a psychological perspective to think that we almost expect there to be a world war three

01:33:21.320 is like a self-fulfilling prophecy that we will that we must and i don't like the idea that we must

01:33:28.080 but it seems to be the case a couple things i'll say one i think the cold war and the remnants of it

01:33:36.820 that we still deal with now is world war three in one sense there's not world war three as in

01:33:41.940 massed tank divisions and nuclear exchanges there's all different types of war and i think also another

01:33:47.540 thing to say another angle on that is that maybe in the next generation or now going into the next

01:33:52.560 generation the mass migrations we've seen into into the west particularly and america and australia

01:33:58.640 and something that will have some appalling fallout eventually and again not massed divisions of men

01:34:05.460 not massed tank columns or nuclear bombs or anything but there'll be a type of world war that will maybe

01:34:11.500 end in a some type of a world war three i don't think i don't think the big powers will nuke each other

01:34:17.680 or at least not in the in the near future anyway i can't really say all i can say is that i hope it

01:34:24.100 doesn't yeah fingers crossed our our leaders are frankly uh insane so i worry there was a time when

01:34:34.380 england faithfully obeyed the lord and we were put far above the nations with our glorious empire

01:34:38.760 now we do not obey the lord and well we labor in vain our food is fake and we don't know what a woman

01:34:45.400 is anymore so if we were putting together a 10 point manifesto for cultural change in this nation

01:34:50.780 then uh let's keep god at the middle of it otherwise the work is in vain

01:34:54.940 have we got any more

01:34:59.820 oh there we go uh we're a little over time samson what say he to a quick extension so we can read

01:35:09.100 a few of the comments all right we can do a few so i'm going to say i'm going to read some of these

01:35:17.640 ones and we'll go three each for the segments so uh some of the general comments that have been left

01:35:23.580 have been a few people jamie lovey reese sim saying that they've received their islander magazine today

01:35:28.900 in the post and they're really liking it they're impressed with the aesthetics and the actual quality

01:35:33.220 of the articles so really glad to hear that those who've received it so far and enjoying it um

01:35:38.220 people saying that we've got a great lineup today i certainly agree with you i'll go on to my segment

01:35:43.700 nagubu nationalism chris damms don't forget that while women were winning the euros the media especially

01:35:49.560 the bbc were crying because there weren't any black players well that just goes to show the real

01:35:54.520 priorities doesn't it from an account strangely titled harry and josh are in a secret relationship

01:36:01.300 i didn't realize we were keeping it a secret a few black people are a good start but i don't see

01:36:06.480 any disabled representation on the english team exceedingly disappointing well we're going to

01:36:10.660 need to shape that up perhaps for the next euros no wheelchair users in the first team it's not on

01:36:15.660 really is it someone should be fired i know it's absolutely terrible and uh harry eating a kfc bargain

01:36:23.640 bucket all by himself i think that's bolsonaro pilled right there oh yeah saying so mass migration is

01:36:29.700 bringing us more goals more turkish barbers and more kebab shops that's a dino's dream right there

01:36:35.340 that's right we're living the dino dream dino maxi is the dino's world and we're just living it

01:36:42.080 the dino doesn't require those people to be citizens and on kebab shops you don't need to import the

01:36:46.000 people the recipes are available online this is this is true but the dino doesn't really understand

01:36:51.360 any of that he lives in blissful ignorance if explained to him as long as it's there as long as

01:36:55.800 it's there for him and he's happy uh would you like to read some of your comments if you wouldn't

01:37:01.160 mind go ahead well do you want to uh okay okay let's i've got it okay okay um cynthia paul says

01:37:11.580 completely agree with bow on the subject of nato oh all right i thought i'd get really bad pushback

01:37:15.580 maybe i still will in my view oh thanks for that in my view all nato and especially usa and uk seem to

01:37:22.220 have been done seem to have done in the past 30 to 40 years is to poke their noses into other

01:37:26.320 people's business and cause a lot of death and destruction by all the wars nato has perpetrated

01:37:30.940 there's definitely been a shift in the in the uh sorts of discussions been had about nato since

01:37:36.540 this conflict started so one or two things nato have done which are just sort of undeniably good

01:37:41.080 they have done some humanitarian things just flat out just straight up humanitarian things so you can't

01:37:47.700 blame them for that but still that sort of one percent goodness versus 99 and it's also nevertheless

01:37:52.720 proof of an expansion of their remit yeah yeah and still that quite right quite right uh jjwh says

01:37:58.980 nato has been uh largely demilitarized by giving their weapons to ukraine um they have very low stocks

01:38:05.940 of 155 millimeter shells for example given the lack of manufacturing capability it will take a very long

01:38:11.580 time to restock probably a decade also the quality of troops has markedly declined i have a friend who is

01:38:17.360 currently on a base in the m east oh right in the middle east as a contractor and he's appalled at

01:38:23.860 how far things have fallen well yeah quick thing to say about that a lot of people have said and i

01:38:27.400 probably agree that um lots of material we've given to ukraine was it was a deliberate thing it's

01:38:33.360 so that they can restock with new stuff it's so that they they have their budgets we we need to spend

01:38:39.500 loads more money on all new stuff because we've given away all our stuff it's a deliberate gambit so

01:38:43.960 they can keep their budgets higher and renew all their stuff they're basically giving ukraine all

01:38:49.340 the old crap sort of thing very deliberately um but that thing about shells yeah uh manufacturing

01:38:56.240 shells particularly how it's 145 millimeter ones yeah i've seen that in a number of places

01:39:00.440 that there's a dearth of shells we're not manufacturing enough shells but still we don't we're probably not

01:39:06.420 going to get into a total war where we need kind of an endless supply of artillery shells if we did we

01:39:14.620 might be in trouble but anyway um you and baker says ah nato 75 and this is very much riddled with

01:39:20.680 dementia and needs putting down yeah i mean that's sort of yeah if i was master of the world i would

01:39:26.460 just end nato i would end i would say to putin look we're not taking our eye off of you and we'll use

01:39:32.740 the u.s army or the british army or the german army or whatever if you if you get out of line

01:39:37.380 too badly but we don't need nato don't need it anyway should i read a couple yes absolutely um

01:39:43.380 i couldn't agree more with what based ape has to say uh internet blood sports need to become a

01:39:49.040 year-long module for politics students you can't graduate until you can tell me what ali da is proud

01:39:54.420 of and what is in voucher's tax folder now i must say i totally agree with

01:39:58.500 but i totally agree with that the youtube is much more radicalizing than the textbooks they

01:40:02.800 rustle up these days honestly i don't know what ali dawa is proud of can anybody fill me in i think

01:40:07.780 that's part of what's radicalizing oh because i can i can tell you what is in voucher's tax folder

01:40:12.400 because that was big news on twitter a few months ago californian refugees so to clarify the lesson

01:40:17.400 the tories took away from this election is that they lost because they were not left-wing enough yes

01:40:20.500 that is precisely the lesson the higher-ups seem to be making and it's the one that's going to inform

01:40:23.860 this phony civil war and is going to seal it for that side in my view can i ask you one thing real

01:40:28.800 quick is gove still the force to be reckoned with in the background is he sort of the kingmaker still

01:40:33.780 going to be in the future he certainly certainly likes to think of himself in that way and and

01:40:37.780 and kemi badenoch is his is his protege and uh yeah and she's doing quite well in terms of

01:40:43.660 odds makers of course um and finally a very poetic comment from thomas howe uh howe labor did not

01:40:51.380 rebuild the red wall they just walked over the remnants that's very true yes absolutely and

01:40:55.520 that's all the time that we've got thank you very much for sticking with us in this overtime so um

01:41:00.160 we'll see how england does in the semi-finals today fingers crossed yeah fingers crossed for

01:41:04.940 everybody because i don't want to spoil everybody's fun i just want to uh let everybody know that they

01:41:09.340 are propagandizing you but you already know that anyway we'll see you again tomorrow stick around

01:41:13.460 for tomlinson talks later take care and goodbye

01:41:16.000 you

The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters - July 10, 2024

The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters #953

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