Ayaan Hirsi Ali Returns - Islam, Immigration, and the State of the West (The Saad Truth with Dr. Saad_728)
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Summary
In this episode, Ghat Saad sits down with Ayaan Hirsi Ali, founder of the AHA Foundation and author of The Caged Virgin, Infidel, Nomad, Heretic, The Challenge of Da'wah, and Animal Farm, to discuss her new book, Prey: Islam and the Erosion of Women's Rights.
Transcript
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Hi, everybody. This is Ghat Saad. I have a repeat guest today and a very special guest,
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Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Welcome back. How are you doing?
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Ghat, it's very nice to see you. Thank you for having me on.
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Let me just mention your bio. Then I want to get into this guy for a second because I saw something
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on your web. So hold on, hold on. I got some good stuff for you. So you are the research fellow at the
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Hoover Institution at Stanford, founder of the AHA, Ayaan Hirsi Ali Foundation. You host a podcast by your
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name. Many books, The Caged Virgin, Infidel, Nomad, Heretic, The Challenge of Da'wah, and your most
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recent one was Prey, Immigration, Islam, and the Erosion of Women's Rights. Anything we need to add
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That book is coming. The last one, Prey, is in the process of the paperback coming out,
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and with a new introduction, a new forward. It's an attempt to update what happened between
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2020 and now because 2020, everything was closed down. That was when I published that book.
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But unfortunately, the subject of the book, which is the violence, sexual violence against women
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perpetrated by men who come from Muslim majority countries and men that are not necessarily Muslim,
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but who come from societies where women's rights are not protected. They are wreaking havoc on the
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streets of the West. And that's what Prey is about, and the silence of the so-called feminists.
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Oftentimes, it's not the silence. It's rather arguing vociferously against those who are trying to
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protect the rights of women, right? So it's not just silence. Oftentimes, there is an obfuscation to
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explain away the things that are happening, which makes it even worse. Before we jump into all this,
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I said that I would mention Orwell. Now, the reason I know about your love of Orwell, because I went to
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your foundation's, I can't remember if it was the foundation's website or your own personal website,
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where you had listed a bunch of books that you love. The top two were 1984 and Animal Farm,
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or at least the top two. Now, so this is the authorized biography of Orwell, but this is now
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going to make you jealous, Ayaan. Are you ready? Yes. It was my 60th birthday on Sunday.
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Oh, congratulations. Thank you. This is where you say you don't look a day over 41. Yes?
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You don't look a day over 41. First edition Animal Farm. First edition 1984. That's one of many gifts
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that my ridiculously lovely family gave me. So are you jealous? I am jealous. And I won those
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sooner than my 60th, which is not too far away. All right. So where do you want to start? So we start
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with, I think the last time you were here was in May 2022. So it's been about two and a half years.
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So if we do a State of the Union address for the West, have we regressed? Have we improved? Give it to
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us, Ayaan. The answer is both. We have regressed and the regression is now manifest on the streets,
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on our campuses, everywhere. Let's say, to go on from the conversation we had in 2022. But there's
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also progress. And that makes me very, very optimistic, especially in the United States.
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There is a blowback underway. And it's a good one. I'm just really heartened by the fact that
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men, and in particular, white men, and even African American men are standing up to all this BS
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that's against them, the conspiracy to steal their civilization and the legacy of their ancestors.
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I am so happy that they're standing up and they're saying, enough of this. We don't want any of this,
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and that they're conspiring to put a stop to it.
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Okay. So I would love to share your optimism. And I wake up every day. I'm a jovial guy. They call me
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the happy warrior. But I'm not seeing the same level. I'm not picking up the same level of optimism
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that you're picking up. What is it that you are seeing specifically that suggests that there is
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an auto-correction taking place? Is it because you're in Canada?
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Well, certainly being in Canada, number one, being in Montreal, number two, being at Concordia
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University, number three, maybe makes me a bit more pessimistic. But I think many of those realities
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Well, I think geographically, it really matters. It matters the social surroundings you are in.
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So one of the things that I really find heartening is Silicon Valley. Silicon Valley
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in 2022 was either part of the problem, or they were indifferent, or it seemed as if they were
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indifferent. Twitter was owned by someone other than Elon Musk. And it's wonderful how we forget
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their names. I have no clue who that is. Jack Dorsey and somebody else.
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Jack Dorsey, who unfollowed me, by the way, on Twitter. He had come on my show.
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We were very friendly, but somehow he's now pressed the unfollow button. Oh, well.
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Yeah. So that was back in 2022 when we had the events of 2020. So this thing is going down the
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drain. Universities are going down the drain. Corporations are going down the drain.
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K-12 schools are going down the drain. And people seem to be standing only on the sideline
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and complaining. And I remember going from one event to another event, from one podcast to another
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podcast. And all we were doing was complain, complain, complain. But there was never a concerted
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effort. There was no demographic that stood up and said, okay, we're going to put an end to this.
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And then the tech bros came along, led by people like Elon and Mark Andreessen, Peter Thiel, who was in the
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fight for a long time anyway. And I don't know if I'm pronouncing his name right, but Balaji,
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Srinivasan, Michael Solana. These are all, by the way, really young men.
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They're all, when I say young or younger than me.
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And they've stopped being indifferent and they've realized that they're part of the problem and
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they're angry because I would say the smartest demographic we have. And they've decided that
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they're going to stand up to, first of all, identify who it is that we're standing up to
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and then stand up to them. And then surprisingly, I'll say also Wall Street is coming out. You've
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seen the actions of people like Bill Ackman. And if you then, you know, there was this narrative,
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it's the rich against the poor that plays into the hands of the Marxists and the Leninists and
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the woke. And I just, it's awful. I hate that. So we had to say, we had to find a way of defending
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our free market society and our constitution and our Bill of Rights and our legacy. And at the same
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time, touch on the problems that, you know, this enormous gap in wealth that's only increasing
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in America presents. We have to talk honestly about that. So I think now it makes it easier by saying,
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look, rich people are not a monolith. Yes, there are people who game the system. There are people
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who don't care as long as they're rich and they have fences around them. They'll go along and pretend
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to be woke. But here we have some of the wealthiest, smartest people in the world who are standing up
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for the poor, for the dispossessed, for the silenced. And it just makes me, it makes me very,
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very optimistic. It makes me appreciate the genius of the American founding fathers,
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that they came up with a system. Every time an attempt is made to take away freedom of speech
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and enslave people, you'll find Americans who stand up and fight this thing. And if you look at
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the characteristics, I mean, I'm talking about the, just the, the superficial skin color is what the
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work like to focus on. You see, it's, it's across the board. It's black people, it's white people,
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it's men, it's women. I mean, you followed the trajectory of Vivek Ramaswamy. Sure.
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I don't know if he's 38 years old or 35 years old. He looks like he's 25.
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Um, but that's the son of an immigrant and it's people like him. And then, uh, I know you probably
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will not agree with everything that the former governor of, uh, is it North Carolina or South
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Carolina and Nikki Haley, right? You don't agree with everything she says, but that's the daughter
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of an immigrant. Um, I just saw a video of African Americans for Trump or African Americans didn't
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want to be scolded by Barack Obama. Um, and, and the way they talk. And there was one line there
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that says, we don't, we're not going to vote for you or this woman Harris because you're not putting
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America fast. Right. And these are the descendants of slaves who are saying this. They want America
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fast because they know instinctively. And in reality, America is the best place to be black,
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to be woman, to be gay, to be white. It doesn't matter what. And that's why you have literally the
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whole world wanting to come and live here. So I, I have so much to be optimistic about. Um,
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I also find, uh, with your fellow Canadian Jordan Peterson, that there is an attempt to resuscitate
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um, the Judeo-Christian principles on which Western civilization is founded. And Western
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civilization is unimaginable without these principles. And so there's an ever-growing group
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of people, intelligent people who are standing up and who are saying, yeah, we can identify exactly
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what the civilization is about. And we appreciate what it has done. And again, it's a mixed group of
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people. It's not just, uh, what they say, white male and stale and all that, which is, it's everyone.
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And I, I couldn't be more optimistic. And so that means we have a fighting chance.
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Right. Well, from your lips to God's ear, as they say, uh, were you surprised by the post-October
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7th orgiastic global Jew hatred that we've seen before, before I see the flurry, let me kind of give
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you a bit of a, uh, uh, setting for it. So we both come from an environment where we certainly would
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understand what Jew hatred is and we're immigrants. So we appreciate the values that the West and
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shrines and so on. But even for someone like me who escaped the middle East, I was taken aback
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that the response of October 7th, right? I always, I always give the following analogy
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when I'm trying to explain a phenomenon. Take for example, your weight on any given day,
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based on the decisions that you make that day, only one of three things can happen to your weight.
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It can either go up, it can stay the same, or it can go down. There is no other possible state of
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the world. So after October 7th, only three things could happen when it comes to Jew hatred. You can
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either empathize more with the Jews because while this horrible thing happened, Jew hatred can stay the
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same or it can go down. Well, I must admit that to my surprise, I was astonished at the level of
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unleashing of Jew hatred. I'm sure that that's been your experience too. What can we do about it?
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What are your thoughts about it? Because I'm scratching my head saying, boy, I think it was
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better when I lived in Lebanon than when I live in Montreal.
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And unfortunately, there are a number of Jewish friends who have already said to me that they feel
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safer in the United Arab Emirates than, for instance, London, Paris, or New York. I mean,
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that should shock us and that should humble us, right? So a number of things. One, the explosion in
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Jew hatred is, it's shocking. It's shocking to see people out on the streets in the most advanced
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societies that had promised not so long ago, never again, to watch hundreds of thousands of people
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come out and chant from the river to the sea, or intifada, or that there is only one solution. I mean,
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really, these are genocidal slogans for the people who know what they mean. So shocking. Is it surprising?
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I think it's not so surprising. Again, go back to 2020. And that for me was the main shock is to wake
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up to how our society had degenerated and the level of degeneration, especially amongst what we call the
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elite. That's the people who are educated, right? University students graduating from places like
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Columbia and Harvard and Penn. And just almost every university, Stanford, every university in the
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United States, I don't think it's any different in Canada, perhaps even worse. And then across the
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Atlantic, again, seeing the same things to say, wow, this went, it was as if the carpet was torn from under
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our feet. And reality came really fast. Now, in hindsight, there were always things, there were signposts.
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And for me, the signposts of the radical antisemitism that we are seeing now is the way the anti-white
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narrative was developed, the anti-white male narrative. And it was tied in Europe to the concept of
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decolonization. And in America, Northern America, to the concept of slavery and racism. And the way those
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things worked together, and watching, constantly bringing Israel, injecting Israel into everything. So you'd see a
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black lives matter protest, and they would be protesting white cops or cops killing, or arresting, or mistreating
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black men. And you would say that's a straightforward issue. But then you would see and hear anti-Israel
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slogans, anti-Zionist slogans. Suddenly, there would be something about BDS. And there would be,
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the use of these terms, settler colonial, and just you keep hearing that word, settler colonial.
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And you would pivot away from what's happening on the domestic scene in America, in the confrontation
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between black men and police. And now you're talking about, we can only have justice, if the Zionist
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state is eliminated. So if you were in the university, well, that's what you've been hearing for years and
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years. And then it came out into the open in the spring of this year. And so how can I then pretend
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to be surprised? And what's surprised? I'm shocked.
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Well, I mean, sorry, forgive me for interrupting. So I argue that there are three sources of
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Jew hatred. There is the one that you're just enunciating. So if I went to Near East studies and
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political science programs at Harvard and Columbia, then there is a particular narrative that makes me
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very much have animus towards the Jew, towards Israel. So that's sort of the academic progressive
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left. Then there is kind of the neo-Nazi right that will also write to me Jew hatred stuff, Jews won't
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replace us and so on. And then of course, the third one that we're both intimately familiar with also
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is the Islamic one, right? So right now, you know, in the past, at least I could wake up on a given day
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and say, okay, today, I'm getting hit by the neo-Nazis. Whereas now, in any direction, I turn ayan,
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I was at an event in Springfield, Massachusetts last month. And someone that a rabbi was making a
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comparison between the neo-Nazi far-right anti-Semitism and then the one on the far left.
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And he said, the far right one is like a heart attack. You know, it's going to kill you.
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You know what to expect. And then the far left one was like this chronic cancer or like a chronic
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disease. It's there and it comes, you know, in the name of justice.
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And that's also, I think, one thing, you know, when you're within Jewish communities, it's like,
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how can you not see, how can you not peel back all this language of justice, this nice sounding stuff
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and see this thing for what it is? It's a real monster. But a lot of Jewish people got beguiled
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into thinking that by joining the woke, that they were fighting for the rights of blacks and women
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and gays and transgender and so on. So I think the far left anti-Semitism is the most dangerous
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because it recruits Jewish people and it uses some of the most basic principles of the Jewish faith,
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such as justice, to market itself. And I think one of, if you think about subversion in general,
00:20:09.880
and maybe we'll come to talking about subversion, it is, you don't have to go around spending a lot
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of money or blood or treasure in demolishing your enemy. You just find out what his weaknesses are
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and you use those weaknesses against him. And I think the left has perfected that to a certain extent
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against the West, against Jewish communities in Israel, against women. So women, if you look at
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almost all the famous, well-funded women's organizations, it's this language of inclusion
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that is used against them. You know, we should open the borders. Any sane woman knows that open
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borders mean trouble for women, but you can't find any feminist movement against it. So this is,
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this is the thing that's so insidious about, about the left is that they can convince you
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to take part in your own demise. Yeah. So I, so I'm not saying this for self-promotion on my show,
00:21:15.640
but it's relevant for the, for the conversation. So in the parasitic mind, what I'm arguing there
00:21:21.980
is that our cognitive system, our thought processes can be hijacked by ideological rapture,
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causing us to say, hashtag, you know, open borders, refugees welcome. In my forthcoming book,
00:21:36.620
Suicidal Empathy, I continue the story by then arguing that our emotional, our affective system
00:21:44.260
can be hijacked. So now it's the perfect cocktail, right? Because we are both a thinking and feeling
00:21:50.460
animal. If I can, to your, to your, the word you use, subvert, if I could subvert your cognitive
00:21:57.060
system and then hit you with a double whammy with your emotional system, I've won the war and I didn't
00:22:02.700
have to fire a single shot. What do you, what do you think of that? That's exactly right. And I think,
00:22:08.580
you know, you'll go back to philosophers like Hegel, I've been reading Karl Popper and he says,
00:22:14.960
go back as far as Aristotle, even Plato. And so it is this, but Hegel really is the one who left us
00:22:21.340
with this legacy of rekindling tribalism. And then the emphasis on the feelings, as long as,
00:22:29.060
you know, subjectivity taken to an extreme. And, um, the reason why I'm optimistic about fighting
00:22:36.040
this thing back is Western society cannot function if it abandons objectivity and if it abandons
00:22:43.180
reality. So growing up in a clan society, for instance, everything was objective. It's all about
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intuition and feeling and sizing things up. And, you know, uh, someone who cannot read or write,
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like my grandmother had all this intuitive wisdom, learning through a great deal of hardship. And
00:23:01.720
that was, that was admired. And part of, uh, why is that people become so cunning and deceitful.
00:23:11.740
And that's how you, how you survive in a very harsh tribal context. You know, this better than I do,
00:23:19.240
but the tribe by definition is genocidal because hey, if either you survive or I survive,
00:23:26.220
it's zero sum resources are scarce. And so there's this constant cycle of, uh, of violence and
00:23:32.600
hostility and you learn to survive in that, um, in that, uh, ecosystem. So what the West is doing
00:23:42.340
now is they've imported all these people who come from that ecosystem where they know how to be
00:23:49.260
on top when it comes to subjectivity. And the West developed over a long time,
00:23:56.140
this rational objective systems. And so in the West, you really, there is no West if there's no
00:24:01.880
objectivity. And it's so, I mean, I, I, you should try to book on it. I don't have the time. I wish I
00:24:09.900
could. Uh, but I'm so glad that we're now becoming, um, aware of the deception that is in words like
00:24:21.060
decolonization and, um, and, and words like all this blame that's heaps on the West and you'll find
00:24:32.080
Western man's, um, pressure points and especially the guilt he feels towards being affluent or towards,
00:24:40.600
uh, living. It's, it's really inheriting a society that has a good story to tell and a bad story to
00:24:49.280
tell. And we come in and we tell you this bad story and we keep pushing at these sensitive areas
00:24:53.960
and you fall for it over and over again, but there is no affluence for anyone. If we abandon
00:25:01.120
objectivity, objective truth, if we abandon science, if we abandon the open society. So I think that,
00:25:09.940
uh, those of us who understand that this are going to come up and we will be from the West itself.
00:25:17.320
And also we will be immigrants who can tell you, uh, precisely why these societies that are
00:25:23.840
based on subjectivity keep failing over and over and over again. So if the West becomes tribal,
00:25:30.060
the West becomes subjective and then the West becomes like everyone else.
00:25:33.840
Right. So, I mean, that's why, by the way, uh, of all of the parasitic ideas that I've discussed
00:25:38.200
to your point, I say that postmodernism is the granddaddy of all idea pathogens, because it is the one
00:25:45.340
that allows all of the other parasitic ideas to flourish and, and, and, and, and catch on.
00:25:51.220
Yeah. But okay. So let's suppose we can build an evac, a mind vaccine against all this
00:25:58.020
imbecility. Okay. Fair enough. But then what do we do?
00:26:01.640
Can I say it's not weak? We have built it. We have built. So this is again, what makes the West
00:26:07.440
unique is we have built this mind vaccine. We just haven't been applying it. Then we surrendered
00:26:13.620
the universities to those subjective, you know, gone. I think, I think the fight is not a fight
00:26:20.360
of, can we come up with something new? I think the fight is one of how can we restore what we have
00:26:25.960
and we're about to lose. Fair enough. So, okay. Whether we already have the vaccine or we deploy
00:26:32.780
a new one or set up new mind vaccine centers, that's all great. And that's what I spend most of
00:26:37.240
my day doing. But there is another problem here, which is, and obviously you're aware of this,
00:26:42.760
but for our listeners and viewers, you know, the old maxim that demography is destiny is truly act,
00:26:50.820
right? I mean, you are the sum of the people that make up your society. And if we all share the exact
00:26:56.280
same foundational values, then we have a great society called the United States or the West,
00:27:00.660
whatever. And if we don't, and if we start losing that, then all of the mind vaccines in the world
00:27:06.440
are not going to reverse that. So now in the West, one of the parasitic ideas is all refugees welcome.
00:27:14.160
Everybody has an, Hey, Elon Musk is an immigrant. Why are you a bigot, Gadsad? Why, you know,
00:27:19.900
all immigrants are equally likely to assimilate. Now that idea pathogen and cultural relativism
00:27:26.900
has resulted in the influx of millions of people that do not share a single one of our foundational
00:27:34.580
values. So even if now people have woken up and will put an end to that immigration pattern,
00:27:40.940
isn't the cancer already here and irreversible? I mean, how do you get the millions of people that
00:27:46.520
are already in your society short of deporting everybody who doesn't share your values? How can
00:27:51.300
you fix that problem, Ayaan? I think because it's a multi-pronged problem, it requires a multi-pronged
00:28:00.760
solution. I think we should be making our own babies. We should not be outsourcing
00:28:05.340
baby making to third world countries. And in order to do that, I think we have to reverse
00:28:12.820
this toxic relationship that has developed between men and women in general in the West.
00:28:17.760
And to do that, that means we have to talk about the unintended consequences of feminism.
00:28:25.660
There are all the good things about feminist fights for the emancipation of women has been
00:28:31.440
amazing. And I tell you every day, I am one grateful woman to be in the West for all the things that we
00:28:39.160
have achieved, men and women. But I think somewhere, I don't know, we took a left turn and now we are
00:28:45.620
almost off a precipice because men and women are talking past one another. And a narrative is
00:28:53.180
developed that it's like the tribal, the men tribe and the women tribe, and it's zero sum. And if you
00:29:02.700
want to advance in life, you have to take something away from a man because he's taking it away from you.
00:29:07.620
It's just really sick. So we've got to bring back a healthy relationship between, and this is generally
00:29:19.400
speaking, by the way, talking of optimism, I'm talking to a lot of women right now, young women,
00:29:25.580
Gen Z women, who are very much aware of this and who want this, and who were able really to identify
00:29:31.860
where things went wrong, and they don't want any part of that cancerous feminism of hostility towards
00:29:38.500
men. So the thing is, we have to love our men, we have to cherish them, and we have to protect them,
00:29:44.280
and then they'll protect us. And there's a great deal of wise women who are now coming to that
00:29:50.940
understanding. If you kill all testosterone, you'll be someone's slave.
00:29:54.900
Exactly right. I know that you, I'm sorry, go ahead.
00:30:00.020
I said it was a multi-pronged. So that is, then of course, the immigration issue. This is a part of the
00:30:08.620
subversive efforts to destroy the West. And the people who are saying they want to destroy the West, you
00:30:14.760
don't have to think in conspiracy theories. They say it, they write it, they're all over the place. We have to
00:30:20.680
dismantle critical race theory and critical theory, critical, this, all these neo-Marxist stuff. It's
00:30:28.840
out there. They say, it's just like the way I talk about the Muslim Brotherhood. You know, you don't
00:30:32.820
have to second guess them. Don't listen to me, listen to them. And so I think you have to ferret out
00:30:38.660
all of these ideologies, bring them into the open, expose them, and fight them with counter-narratives,
00:30:44.980
which I think we can do. I think people who love, I mean, I love America, you love Canada,
00:30:53.240
and so on. We've got to get up and get our hands dirty in the sense that we need to get involved
00:30:59.020
in politics. Again, to go back to the tech bros, all they wanted to do was innovate and build and
00:31:08.200
not have anything to do with politics. And if politics came their way, they would, you know,
00:31:13.940
write them a check and they'd be left alone. And they've discovered that that's not how it works.
00:31:19.180
Politics will not leave you alone. So I think we have to start doing exactly what open societies
00:31:25.080
were built for. And that was participation of the electorate. We have to take part in this process,
00:31:33.440
which is the fight for power. And we will fight for power. And it's not unchecked power. We want our
00:31:39.160
power to be checked, but it's for the preservation of the systems that we have. We can reform the
00:31:46.060
systems, but we don't want to dismantle them. And I think we have to express that. And one of the
00:31:51.840
systems that we ought to expressly stand for is the nation state and its nationhood. And if you have
00:32:03.040
which is what we have in the West, a weakened idea of what nationhood is, you will go along with the
00:32:11.420
nonsense of opening the borders and letting everybody in.
00:32:15.020
Well, by the way, Justin Trudeau, if you remember, said that Canada is now a post-nation entity, right?
00:32:22.560
We are now a globalist construct. And therefore, there is no such thing as Canadian values to speak
00:32:29.400
of. So to your point, that's exactly I mean, by the way, that started with his dad, who instituted
00:32:35.620
the political philosophy of multiculturalism, not to be confused with the idea of having a
00:32:41.540
pluralistic society where I can eat Somali food or Ethiopian food or Greek food. That's great. That
00:32:46.720
enriches society. But multiculturalism is a political philosophy. We're now seeing its consequences in
00:32:52.720
Canada. I know what multiculturalism is, but thank you for clarifying it for the audience.
00:33:00.060
I think that when you say post-nation reality, it really is a euphemism for tribalism and for
00:33:09.460
subjectivity. And for ideologies, you know, Marxism, socialism, revolutionary socialism is a form of
00:33:18.580
tribalism. Marx, again, go back to Hegel and what he argues for. So post-nation state is post-Hegel.
00:33:26.960
So it is post, it's tribalism. And it's primitivism. And it's a return to subjectivity. This is where
00:33:36.600
multiculturalism also anything goes. You are not supposed to compare these cultures and say this
00:33:42.600
one is superior to that one, because all cultures are equal. That level of moral relativism,
00:33:49.300
leads to the guillotine. It leads to genocide. It leads to a decay. You know, it's awful. And that's
00:33:58.020
really what they want. Yeah. So part of it is to expose what they're saying. And it's so important
00:34:05.400
to have someone within Canada stand up to Trudeau and have him actually go and live among tribespeople
00:34:11.700
so that he can discover for himself what it is like. Let's send them to Mogadishu for a holiday.
00:34:18.680
I'll pay for it. Will you join me in paying for him to go to Mogadishu for a month?
00:34:22.720
I'll pay for Justin Trudeau to go to Mogadishu for a month.
00:34:26.260
Okay, I know that you were fortunate enough, I never got the pleasure of meeting Christopher Hitchens. And I
00:34:35.060
know, I think it was him who would said that, you know, Islam can only continue to flourish as long
00:34:42.080
as women, I mean, I'm paraphrasing his words, I don't remember his exact words, as long as,
00:34:46.060
you know, Muslim women go along with it, the day that the Muslim women say,
00:34:50.540
we're done, then the whole thing collapses. Is that,
00:34:55.220
in your view, the most direct way to defang and soften Islam through creating a narrative that
00:35:04.860
allows women, Muslim women to have the courage to say, no, no, no, we're not doing ABC anymore.
00:35:09.840
Mm-hmm. I think here I will disagree with Christopher and say, if you want a radical change
00:35:18.380
to a civilization as old as Islamic civilization, we're talking about 1400 years, it'll have to
00:35:26.460
come from the man of Islam. And it'll have to come from those men adopting an attitude of critical
00:35:33.100
thinking and redirecting their energy from the objective of achieving societies that live under
00:35:39.720
Sharia law to societies that adopt secular law. Now, to say secular law doesn't mean that they
00:35:48.760
have to throw away their religion, but they'll have to throw away the political aspects of their
00:35:55.000
religion. And I can see the UAE seems to have to want to go that way. Even Saudi Arabia under this
00:36:06.260
crown prince wants to go that way. God, in its most simplistic way, Islamism says
00:36:17.640
life in the hereafter is more important than life on earth. And therefore, if you want to have a good
00:36:29.840
place in eternal life, life after death, you have to engage in the jihad, that is to give infidels,
00:36:39.680
non-Muslims, offer them the Sharia, and if they reject it, then offer them either death or life as
00:36:53.040
What I think that UAE and Saudi Arabia, they have made a choice, they understand that better than you
00:37:03.380
and me, they're steeped in Islamic faith. And I think in their actions, they seem to have made a choice
00:37:10.740
to say, no, we want to build for life on earth. And hence, you see all this materialism,
00:37:17.820
and they have corrupt the powers of the Salafis and the Wahhabis. Unfortunately for us,
00:37:25.420
the Wahhabis and the Salafis, hiding under the banner of the Muslim Brotherhood, have established
00:37:31.920
themselves in the West, and so now they're flourishing in the West more than they are flourishing
00:37:36.740
in their countries of origin, where they've been banned and they've been told to,
00:37:42.100
they're taken down a notch or two. So if, is it women, I'll say if Mohammed bin Salman
00:37:57.660
decides that he's going to allow women to go to school, finish school, work and keep their jobs,
00:38:07.140
and take, participate in shaping the future of Saudi Arabia, and by extension, the Muslim world,
00:38:15.920
then I think, and I think that's what Christopher Hitchens really meant, was then things will change.
00:38:23.680
Giving Muslim women agency is going to change the Muslim world for the better.
00:38:28.280
But the agency has to be given to them by men, and men have to continue to protect women's agency.
00:38:36.700
I can't remember if we spoke about this the last time you were on the show, but do you hold out any hope
00:38:44.340
that there could be a doctrinal reformation of Islam so that, you know, that particular passage that said,
00:38:54.620
kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, we reinterpret it as meaning kill with kindness, or is the whole reformation project
00:39:04.280
So no reformation, no change is going to come from the ground in any Islamic context, unless it is accompanied by force,
00:39:15.640
and unless it's also enforced by force, overwhelming force.
00:39:23.400
So again, to stay with Saudi Arabia, why Saudi Arabia?
00:39:26.220
Because it's the most important Muslim country in the world, more important than Iran.
00:39:30.980
You know, five days, five times a day, Muslims face Mecca.
00:39:41.560
If, again, Mohammed bin Salman and his circle decide to define what Islam is, and then enforce it,
00:39:52.020
then it's going to be what they define it to be.
00:39:55.920
If they decide to review the Quran and say, look, some of what's here is historic.
00:40:03.680
If they decide to review the legacy of the Prophet and say, we've got to read this stuff in historic content,
00:40:11.620
and we're going to decide how we've got to go with the times and live with the times,
00:40:17.480
if they then say some of these very basic scriptures are never to be practiced again,
00:40:29.360
and enforce it with power, I will say that's going to be much more lasting than if you only round up the leadership of the Muslim Brotherhood
00:40:40.200
and throw them in jail and behead them and exile them.
00:40:43.560
Because as we've seen from previous decades, that has happened over and over and over again.
00:40:49.880
The Islamists have been jailed, they've been hung, they have been massacred,
00:40:55.200
and they have a way of coming back over and over again.
00:41:04.480
Even the Muslim Brotherhood is kicked out of office when, in 2012, they adopted office in Egypt.
00:41:14.480
as long as they remain in the Quran and as long as they remain in the Hadith and in the Seerah,
00:41:18.780
then they're going to lead a life of their own.
00:41:21.920
And so we need the leadership of Saudi Arabia and the other Arab countries that have been negatively affected,
00:41:28.820
the Muslim countries that have been negatively affected by this,
00:41:46.800
And I think then we have to collaborate with the whole world,
00:41:49.540
because radical Islam threatens nearly every place where it has established itself.
00:41:54.600
Now it's more of a threat to the West than it is to Arab countries.
00:42:11.920
the content from children's schools and textbooks,
00:42:41.120
There'll be peace between the Jews and the Arabs,
00:42:53.360
to all on loving themselves and their children.