The Saad Truth with Dr. Saad - Ben Mulroney - On Canadian Politics and Justin Trudeau (The Saad Truth with Dr. Saad_817)

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00:00:41.980 leaders who drive global economic and social progress. Visit northwood.edu. Hi everybody, this

00:00:49.760 is Gatsad for the Sad Truth. I think I would not be wrong in saying that this is the first time that

00:00:55.280 I have one person removed from the Prime Minister of Canada, Ben Mulroney, son of Brian Mulroney. How

00:01:04.580 are you doing, sir? Gatsad, really, really pleased to be here on your podcast. So am I, and I don't

00:01:10.280 like the fact that this might be a case where my guest is better looking than me. I don't feel

00:01:16.620 comfortable with that. I have a very fragile, but I don't like it. Thank you for saying that. Thank

00:01:22.720 you. I was always told I had a face for radio. I'm finally doing that. So. Oh, I think I think

00:01:28.060 you're modest. Okay, let's start. Let's start with it. I hope that I mean, I don't know if you get

00:01:33.120 upset when people introduce you as your father's son, but obviously he was the Prime Minister from I

00:01:39.480 think 1984 to 1993. Is this something that you wear as a badge of honor? Or would you prefer that?

00:01:46.020 Hey, no, I don't want you to constantly refer to my dad. No, no, I love it. I mean, this is that the

00:01:51.360 name carries so much weight. It means so much to so many people. And it really was in in in full

00:01:58.520 display at my dad's funeral. In fact, in the weeks leading up to my dad's funeral, I can't tell you how

00:02:03.100 many people stopped me on the street, sent me DMs, called into the show to say what he meant to them.

00:02:10.060 And so I wear it as a badge of honor, I was named after his father, who was an electrician on the

00:02:15.860 North Shore of Quebec in Bay Como. So I'm Benedict Mulroney had a Brian Mulroney, who had a Benedict

00:02:21.060 Mulroney, and I named one of my sons Brian Mulroney. So it's a I'm very, very proud of the name.

00:02:27.140 Now, I was just checking. I mean, I thought you had obviously big ties to Quebec. But I don't think I

00:02:34.100 knew that you were born in Montreal. So as you know, Montreal for many years, do you return often to

00:02:39.840 Montreal? What do you think? Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely. I go back to Montreal all the time. My, my, my

00:02:46.100 mother, when when my parents were empty nesters moved out of Westmount and moved into Montreal in the old

00:02:51.460 Mariannopolis building. And it's just a stunning, stunning place with the best view you've ever seen of the

00:02:57.700 most beautiful city in North America. And my in laws are still there. I still have great friends there. And I come

00:03:03.520 back from time to time, especially in this new iteration of my career, as I do my best to stand up for causes

00:03:11.740 that are important to me, most notably anti Semitism. I've come back to, to speak at a number of fireside chats and 0.99

00:03:18.880 keynotes. And so it keeps me tethered to the city I love, especially to help with a cause that's so important to me.

00:03:26.240 Well, you're speaking of anti Semitism. I mean, in an indirect way, your wife is Jewish, correct?

00:03:31.760 Yes. Yes, she is. She is. And she's also from Montreal. 0.99

00:03:36.460 She, she, she actually lived about a block and a half, maybe not that maybe five, 10 blocks away

00:03:41.620 from my parents house. And when I was young and stupid, and entirely smitten, I would, I would drive 0.96

00:03:50.200 by her house just on the off chance that I might see her. And it's only after I went to law school that 0.98

00:03:55.980 I realized that I probably fit the legal definition of a stalker.

00:04:00.380 Now that she married me, she's married me. So the point is moot. 0.51

00:04:03.600 How much did you have to cajole her and court her before she agreed to actually go out on a date with 0.84

00:04:11.140 you?

00:04:11.320 That's, that's a great question. I, I think I was taken by her the first time I saw her

00:04:19.640 and I was probably 17. And we didn't go out on our first date till two years before we got

00:04:25.000 married. We were married for six. Yeah, it probably, it probably took over 12 or 13 years.

00:04:30.020 Wow. She's a tough cookie to crack. 1.00

00:04:32.600 Yeah. Yes. It's about worth it.

00:04:33.820 Okay. So let's talk briefly about your career for the past 20 plus years. I mean, historically,

00:04:40.000 you've been associated say with CTV or other outlets as a TV slash radio personality, but it's

00:04:47.260 only recently that you went completely independent and on your own.

00:04:52.400 Well, I'm not completely independent. I actually work for chorus, but I am given no editorial direction

00:04:57.960 to do my show. I get to pick the guests I want. I get to talk about the topics that matter to me.

00:05:03.060 And I've never been told by anyone higher up anything, but job well done, keep doing what

00:05:08.040 you're doing. And so in that way, I am far less, far less controlled and in a far less controlling

00:05:15.540 environment than I've ever been in before. Now, do you, do you feel though, that prior to your

00:05:20.980 current arrangement, you would have been much more on a leash whereby I wouldn't have expected you to

00:05:27.640 reach out to Gad Saad for him to come? Yeah. Yeah. Well, yes. I mean, in television,

00:05:32.680 everything is done. It's such a collaborative medium. And, and even though you're the tip of

00:05:39.360 the sword, that you're the front facing person that everybody sees, you're by no means in control

00:05:44.480 of editorial narrative, be it in entertainment news or, or anything else. And I mean, I remember,

00:05:51.580 do you remember when that hashtag was circulating? I don't know, less than seven, eight years ago about

00:05:58.300 bring our girls home. And they had everybody. I thought it was such a silly thing to, to do,

00:06:04.660 to, to do, I didn't want to do it. I thought it was performative and I thought it wasn't going to

00:06:09.920 achieve anything. And I thought we were all going to look really silly. And I was told it would be 0.96

00:06:13.640 much better if everybody on the show did it. And so I did it. And I, and then the pushback was

00:06:18.840 immediate. It was, of course it was silly. And it's not, we're not bringing anybody home by doing this. 0.97

00:06:23.120 And, and so that was just one small thing, but I do remember when I pivoted to morning television,

00:06:30.200 when Canada AM, the CTV's national morning show was sent out to pasture and they want to rebrand

00:06:37.480 and breathe new life into morning television. I, I took, I took over and I, I, we helped build

00:06:42.960 your morning. I remember during one of the first black history months, we had a number of very well

00:06:50.680 educated people. I believe that a couple of professors on the show who kept referring to

00:06:54.180 Canada as a slave owning nation. Now that's factually incorrect. The practice of slaveholding

00:07:01.440 was outlawed in the British empire 70 years before Canada became a nation. Now was there slavery in

00:07:09.240 British North America? Yes, of course. But, but I had these people repeating this and I, and I remember

00:07:15.500 in a meeting saying, I'm going to correct somebody the next time they say that. And I was told,

00:07:19.700 no, no, no, don't do that. And fortunately it didn't come up again, but I was very surprised

00:07:25.020 by that. I mean, look, I think Canada has got enough to answer for enough skeletons in our closet,

00:07:30.860 enough mistakes that were made historically that we don't need to create new ones. We don't,

00:07:35.540 I don't like being responsible for the ills of other countries. I don't like being responsible for

00:07:40.160 the criminal behavior of say a murderous police officer in the United States. That's their issue to deal

00:07:47.460 with. And yet we seem to import all of those problems, take them on ourselves, self-flagellate

00:07:52.560 and show everybody how terrible we are, but how we want to do better, but we don't really do the

00:07:57.240 things we need to make ourselves better. Yeah, indeed. We'll, we'll get down to some of the woke

00:08:02.340 stuff that is unique to Canada in a bit. And I think I might've touched upon that some of the stuff

00:08:06.640 when I first appeared on your show, but are there, are there a lot of differences say between your own

00:08:13.520 personal politics as compared to say your dad, are there glaring differences or, you know, you're pretty

00:08:21.040 much fully aligned politically?

00:08:22.740 Uh, I'm sure there were small differences. Uh, I'm sure there were, um, yeah, I'm sure there were

00:08:30.860 small differences. I'm a policy here or there, but broad strokes. No, I think we, we all saw, we saw,

00:08:36.560 we saw where Canada should go and where, what Canada should be doing, uh, in, uh, in very similar

00:08:42.580 ways. You know, I, I, I believe that, um, a dollar earned by an individual is best spent by that

00:08:48.180 individual. Um, but I also believe in a robust social safety net. I believe that Canada was built

00:08:53.720 on immigration, uh, and when done responsibly up until say 10 years ago, it was, um, a crowning

00:09:00.280 achievement in Canada that you could have so many diverse and divergent perspectives that could all

00:09:05.420 agree on this one important issue. Um, I, I, I believe that most, uh, most, most programs in the, um,

00:09:14.720 uh, of the federal government should be viewed as expenses, not as investments, but there are some

00:09:18.740 that are true investments. For example, um, childcare, I I've seen the studies that demonstrate

00:09:24.340 that when you, you know, for every dollar you invest in childcare, I think there's something

00:09:27.800 like $7 that come back, uh, because you freed up a family to be more productive. Uh, and so,

00:09:33.200 you know, I, I've, you know, those tests that you can take online dad that tell you where you fall

00:09:37.800 on the political spectrum. Every time I take it, every time I take it, I fall dead center. I'm as close

00:09:43.840 to being a centrist as you can be. Now the political parties change. And so depending on

00:09:48.680 who's in power, I'm viewed as extreme this or extreme that, but according to the 500 questions

00:09:54.240 you have to answer, I'm a centrist. You know, so I came to Canada in 1975. I was, I had just

00:10:01.280 turned 11. Uh, and just in my time in Canada, I've seen gigantic changes regrettably with infinite

00:10:09.940 regret. Most of them for the, for the worse. So for example, I remember that in Montreal,

00:10:15.100 we, uh, the, the city would always pride itself that as the snow is falling, you know, they're

00:10:21.940 coming and cleaning the snow. Yeah. Sort of as if, you know, you, you could never have any snow

00:10:27.260 buildup because snow removal is so good. Whereas now you could have a double blizzard that lasts for

00:10:33.440 eight to 10 days before they come around. Of course I would argue, and I think I'm right

00:10:38.860 that that comes eventually from the stressors of having an infinitely generous welfare state,

00:10:46.200 whereby you keep increasing our taxes and some things won't have to give. So the healthcare used

00:10:51.200 to be better 30, 40 years. Today we're forced to take private healthcare, even though we pay the

00:10:56.460 highest possible taxes. Yeah. Do you, can you foresee ever an auto correction? Maybe this leads

00:11:03.160 us to the current that's coming up. Do you ever see taxes greatly being reduced in Canada or is the

00:11:10.860 train ever more going in one direction? Well, I, I would like to live it. I don't pretend to be an

00:11:17.680 expert in, in, in tax systems, uh, but I pay them. So I'm an expert in that and never have we been

00:11:23.200 putting more into the system and all three levels of government and getting less out and what we are

00:11:27.500 and what, what little we're getting out is, is the outcomes have never been worse. Uh, I look at

00:11:32.360 healthcare, for example, you know, uh, but a lot of that can be traced, I think, to bloated bureaucracy.

00:11:37.280 Uh, and a lot of it can be traced to, um, in poor vision for the country. Uh, you know, every,

00:11:44.200 every time I hear the, the liberal party say, Oh, the conservatives voted against housing and they voted

00:11:49.040 against childcare. No, they didn't. They voted against your, your programs and your, and your

00:11:54.140 programs did nothing but reduce the number of childcare spots and your program did nothing but

00:11:57.980 slow down housing. But, but I read somewhere that the national, I think it was in the national post

00:12:02.720 when you're a party that believes that your interests are the country's interests, you can

00:12:07.460 say nonsense like that. And so, uh, I, I think Polly have said it very well. He said, look,

00:12:13.740 if I become prime minister and I open up the books of the federal government, I don't know what I'm

00:12:18.040 going to find. I suspect it's going to be a worse mess than, than we've been led to believe. And so

00:12:23.300 he said, I don't know how much I'm going to be able to, um, put into defense immediately, but I can

00:12:27.860 promise you, I'm going to get rid of the bloat. I'm going to get rid of the pet projects and the, um,

00:12:33.920 and, and, and the, the, the, the, the, the spending that isn't core to what we need to be doing. And I'm

00:12:41.180 going to stick to the stuff that we're really good at. Now, do I think that a robust social safety net

00:12:46.300 is, is important? Yeah, I do. I, I think, I think Canada has an obligation, uh, to, to, uh, help out

00:12:52.400 those, uh, who need it. And, uh, and we've always been generous that way. Um, but do I think that a

00:12:58.920 program that came into effect six months ago, like dental care, do I think that that is, should be

00:13:03.920 enshrined in stone? No, I think we should look at it. I, I, I, and, and I remember a program that came

00:13:08.680 out a few, a few months before the election where, where they said, oh, we're going to, we're going to put a

00:13:13.660 billion dollars into a pot to feed kids before school. I was like, with all due respect, if you

00:13:17.080 gave me some of my own money back, I could feed my own kids. And not that I have a problem feeding

00:13:21.220 my kids, but I was speaking on behalf of my listeners. Uh, so there's certain things that

00:13:25.400 government shouldn't be doing. They shouldn't be sowing chaos and then coming in and pretending

00:13:29.180 to be the agent of order to restore, uh, to restore order from that chaos. If you create it,

00:13:34.400 all you gotta do is get rid of the chaos. We don't need you coming up with a new government

00:13:37.200 program to restore the, the order. You mentioned, uh, Poiliev, so let's talk about that. Uh,

00:13:43.700 so he had, I can't remember the exact maximal lead he had, but let's, let's go with, I don't

00:13:48.080 know, maybe 40 points, 30, 35 points, whatever, whatever that number is was. And now it certainly

00:13:53.800 seems to have reversed. Now, some have argued, and I think there's some, one can lend credence

00:14:00.260 to it, that he, in a sense, he's maybe doing the Kamala Harris thing whereby he, he hasn't

00:14:06.060 worked hard enough to, for example, you know, why, why don't you go on Joe Rogan's show or

00:14:10.480 whichever other podcast. Now I've been in touch with him myself and I offered him the, you

00:14:17.220 know, the chance to come on my show. Now I don't have the platform of Joe Rogan, but I'm

00:14:21.700 no slouch. I think it could be a nice conversation. I'm not sure if you've offered him the same.

00:14:26.780 What are your thoughts about what's going on with Poiliev that he's lost this lead? Can he

00:14:31.420 still reverse the trend? Give us your thoughts. I will say that I don't pay too much mind to

00:14:39.060 daily polls. I don't worry about them. I think they're a good gauge to, for a campaign to

00:14:44.700 decide, you know, if they want to pivot and how their message is getting across. But I don't really

00:14:49.720 worry about them. My dad used to say the only poll that matters is the poll on election day.

00:14:53.840 And, and I subscribe to that. I also take issue with, you know, when I see a poll, for example,

00:14:59.200 Gad that says that the liberals are knocking on 50% popular support. The last time a politician

00:15:06.920 got 50% of the vote in Canada was 1984. And that was my dad. It was a real change election. There

00:15:11.640 was a previous, there was a Trudeau legacy that needed to be held to account. The conservative

00:15:16.120 party was the agent of that change. And there were three parties, right? So he got 50% with three

00:15:21.620 parties. You're telling me that a party that has a legacy of 10 years that they need to be held to

00:15:27.960 account for. There's now being led by a man who three months ago, 76% of Canadians could not pick

00:15:33.320 out of a lineup. You're telling me that he, he has been able to do that with five parties. That's

00:15:39.520 nonsense. And then when I hear a story today that the majority of Canadians believe that the liberal

00:15:45.880 party of Canada would be the most effective steward of resource development in this country,

00:15:53.740 restores development. It makes me think that the entire polling industry is made up of a bunch of

00:15:58.460 guys sitting in a room with a Ouija board. This is, this doesn't make any sense to me. So that's why

00:16:03.140 I don't look at those things because they have their data and they have their reasons, they have

00:16:06.720 their, their protocols and their, their workflows. And I'm sure it makes sense to them. It doesn't

00:16:10.840 make any sense to me. I'd rather talk to people. I'd rather, I'd rather talk to the voters and find

00:16:15.200 out what they're thinking now to go back to your, your question. Can he, can he turn it around? Of

00:16:19.480 course he can turn around. He's the heart. He's the hardest working guy in politics. Uh, he's been,

00:16:23.140 he's been at this beating this drum for, uh, for 10 years. And there are people who are far less

00:16:29.500 partisan than me who acknowledge that had we, uh, had we been adopting the policies that he's been

00:16:35.480 advocating for, for the past 10 years, we would not find ourselves in this, in this weakened position

00:16:41.020 facing a Donald Trump threat. And that brings me to the third point. It looks like as, as early as

00:16:46.980 today, Donald Trump is going to put a 90 day pause on his tariffs on everybody with the exception of

00:16:51.680 China. And that could, if the, if the Tories are able to message it properly, that could get people,

00:16:57.460 uh, doing what they were doing before, which is looking, uh, in the rear view mirror at the legacy

00:17:03.340 of the last 10 years, as opposed to forward, which is where the liberals have had everyone looking

00:17:07.260 at the mean, uh, president in front of them. And if, if he's no longer the threat that, uh, the liberals

00:17:14.360 have made him out to be like the cause of all your problems, we're not the cause of your problems.

00:17:18.020 He's the cause of all your problems. And we are here to, to protect you. Uh, if, uh, if, if, if they could

00:17:24.240 change that narrative, then anything can happen. We also have debates. Don't forget his French is so

00:17:29.560 terrible. We'll have to see. Yeah, that's right. Uh, do you, do you, so the United States, because of

00:17:35.440 Donald Trump, and he's such a unique figure in every imaginable way that whatever auto correction

00:17:42.300 was required in the United States would require someone as cataclysmically different from anyone

00:17:49.180 else to be able to implement it. Now, notwithstanding that Poilievre is, is, is, is a, is a good guy.

00:17:55.340 There are many, many things that I love about Poilievre. And of course the apple is, is a fantastic

00:17:59.580 and so on. Reminds me of the spaghetti Westerns of my childhood. I mean, okay, that's all great,

00:18:06.380 but do you feel, maybe it's unfair to compare him to someone as kind of historic as Donald Trump.

00:18:12.760 Does he have the cataclysmic chutzpah to be able to make the changes that I, I think Canada require,

00:18:21.540 or is he still going to be someone perhaps better than the previous administration,

00:18:26.300 but still working within the, the margins of the leashes that, that, that are afforded?

00:18:32.380 No, I, I think he is the type of politician who is, uh, he, he's the man of the moment. You know,

00:18:37.960 there's a, I get this knock on me all the time and, uh, on social media, whenever I dip my toe in the

00:18:43.160 politics, uh, someone says, Oh, this, this conservative party is nothing like your dad's

00:18:47.760 progressive conservative party. I say, I did, I say to that a couple of things. I say, well,

00:18:51.820 maybe, uh, but maybe we don't need the progressive conservative party today. Maybe this is the

00:18:57.320 vehicle of change that is needed. And secondly, I say to anybody who says that I promise you the NDP

00:19:02.920 of today and the liberal party of today are nothing like the NDP and liberal parties of the eighties

00:19:08.460 and nineties. Uh, and so, and the differences are far, it's a difference of degrees between the,

00:19:14.120 the, the two Tory parties. It's a difference of light years for those other two parties. Um,

00:19:19.400 but, uh, look, I really thought before Donald Trump presented as a threat and he did, I listen,

00:19:26.440 I, there are a lot of, of my listeners who very much like him and wanted to see him succeed.

00:19:30.540 They thought he was the right choice for America. They thought that the country needed, uh, to shake

00:19:37.080 off some really bad ideas and he was going to be the guy to do it. But then he voluntarily presented

00:19:42.060 as a threat and called us a threat. Therefore we had to take him seriously. Um, prior to that last

00:19:48.640 summer, Pierre Polyev put out a video on, on social media about the productivity gap that has grown

00:19:54.780 between Canada and United States since 2050 in the election of Justin Trudeau. It was an incredibly

00:19:59.940 convincing, compelling video. He bypassed the, the media completely put out this video. It got a

00:20:05.840 million views in a few days. And next thing you know, that's all the media are talking about. So

00:20:08.820 it was brilliant and it was done very, very well. And I thought the value proposition for a

00:20:13.160 sort of government of Pierre Polyev was automatic. If you want that productivity gap to continue to

00:20:19.120 grow, then vote for anyone, but Pierre Polyev, but he is the guy who's going to, um, follow suit

00:20:25.960 with the, this notion, not, not that he was, he would do anything that, that, um, that Trump would

00:20:31.800 do, but he would follow suit with the vision that the way that you grow a country is to unlock its

00:20:36.500 potential, the potential of its entrepreneurial class of its citizens, uh, cutting taxes, cutting red tape,

00:20:42.900 um, taking advantage of, of, of the bounty, the natural bounty that God graced us with and not

00:20:49.120 being afraid of selling it all over the world to the highest bidder. So long as, uh, they hopefully

00:20:54.260 share our values. Um, that to me was an automatic yes to the value proposition of, of, of Pierre Polyev.

00:21:01.800 I underestimated the wild card that was the tariffs. And I underestimated the liberals ability to craft a

00:21:09.040 narrative that they were somehow the best suited and best positioned to protect against that threat.

00:21:15.900 Got you. Uh, have you, I mean, you certainly, well, you're very well spoken. Have you thought

00:21:22.300 about yourself going into politics? Is this something that interests you that we want to follow in God's

00:21:27.680 footsteps? Uh, my sister is in politics. She's in Doug Ford's provincial, uh, uh, cabinet. She's the

00:21:35.520 president of the treasury board. She's the hardest working person I've ever met in my life. If she does

00:21:39.760 something, it's, she's going to do it to the best of her ability every single time. The amount of 0.57

00:21:44.460 effort I see her putting in every day to that job. I don't know that I could do it consistently. I also

00:21:49.980 don't know that I have a vision, uh, of, and solutions to bring to bear to problems. I think it's great

00:21:57.020 that if you can identify a problem that makes for a very good, uh, radio show host or podcast host

00:22:01.800 talking about the problems, but you also have to be able to offer up solutions and that takes

00:22:07.400 vision. And I don't know that I necessarily have that. If that were the measure by which we get

00:22:15.120 people into politics, 95% of politicians would never be politicians. So I think hard on yourself.

00:22:22.080 Okay. Well, let me, I'll, I'll reframe it again. If I ever found that I was no longer, uh, being

00:22:27.720 satisfied by this new, uh, this new world that I'm living in of talk radio and podcasting,

00:22:32.840 if I felt that, that I'd done everything that I wanted to do, I may consider running for mayor

00:22:38.180 of Toronto. Uh, I, I love municipal politics. I feel that that is a level of, of politics that

00:22:43.300 touches people most directly in their daily lives. I think Toronto has a leadership problem. I think

00:22:48.780 that Toronto has a, a values problem. I think there are a lot of problems in the city that can be

00:22:52.980 attributed directly to ideology. And, uh, and I think I wouldn't do it anytime soon, but if I felt

00:23:00.820 that I could be of benefit to that conversation, yeah, I would consider. Okay. Well, I, I told you

00:23:06.780 before we got on that I would ask you this question and I wasn't sure if you'd want to answer it, but

00:23:11.300 then you graciously said you would, we're talking about politics. You are friends. I don't know if you

00:23:16.840 still are, but you were friends with Justin Trudeau. I should say before I even asked the question,

00:23:22.140 I am certainly one of the least possible fans of Justin Trudeau. Uh, tell me about your relationship

00:23:29.740 with him. Tell me whether you've ever discussed any political differences that you might have with

00:23:34.960 him. I'm truly fascinated by that relationship. Yeah. So, uh, first I think you've got a, one thing

00:23:40.160 you have to know about me and my, and my family and our upbringing was we truly believe, and because

00:23:44.480 we saw it in practice and we saw how my dad lived his life, that politics was meant to be fought to the

00:23:49.160 best of your ability. And when the fight was over, you laid down your arms and you treated your

00:23:53.420 adversary with respect. And I, I, I, I see the value in that and appreciation for that. That's why

00:24:00.900 you'll, you'll never hear me accuse someone I disagree with of being a traitor to Canada. They

00:24:05.520 just have a different vision for the country and, and, and let's duke it out in the public arena and may

00:24:10.340 the best ideas win. And so that's the world I came from. And when his father was sick, uh, he was in

00:24:18.120 Montreal and I happened to be there cause I was in law school in Quebec city. I'd go back to see my

00:24:21.280 girlfriend at the time in, um, in Montreal. And all of a sudden I'm in a bar and somebody says a

00:24:26.360 mutual friend of ours introduced us and he was charismatic and charming and, uh, funny. And I

00:24:34.200 spent, uh, and, and I, I recognized in him someone who had experienced what I had experienced. And I'd

00:24:40.780 never felt that before. Uh, there was a counterpoint right there. I was like, Oh, he, this guy probably

00:24:44.900 gets the experience that I've, I've had. And so we formed a fast friendship. Um, and he was kind

00:24:51.720 and open and, um, he, the barriers were down and there was no, no spinning anything. And, uh, and it

00:24:58.780 was, uh, and we became friends and, uh, he, uh, was always generous with his time. Uh, when I moved

00:25:05.340 into television, he, he, oh, he invited me to his wedding. He invited me to his wedding. Uh, and, uh,

00:25:10.680 there were a lot of liberals. They're not happy that I was in the second row. Uh, but, but so, so he

00:25:16.320 was nice that way. And as he went into politics, he was, uh, he would call on my dad and, uh, my dad

00:25:23.960 would answer the phone as he did with everyone. He called when Jack Layton, uh, rode the orange wave

00:25:28.700 to become the leader of the opposition. My dad advised him on how to manage such a big caucus. So he

00:25:34.520 was open with his, uh, with his advice. And, uh, he, prior to him winning in 2015, I went out to

00:25:41.540 dinner, uh, with him and Jessica and his wife, uh, Sophie at the time, and he predicted he would

00:25:46.860 win a majority. I don't think he necessarily believed it, but he predicted he would win a

00:25:49.580 majority. And, and so I had, uh, high hopes for him when he, when he was elected. And I thought,

00:25:57.680 you know, he was, it felt to me like he ran a positive campaign. It wouldn't have been the issues

00:26:02.100 that I would have run on, but I had, I had optimism for him. And then the wheel started

00:26:08.560 falling off pretty quickly. And, um, I didn't really talk politics when I was, uh, when I was

00:26:16.560 on television, it didn't serve my purposes to talk smack about a politician and then try to

00:26:21.360 interview them the next day. So I sort of put my politics aside and, and I realized politics is

00:26:26.200 like a muscle. If you don't exercise it, it, it atrophies. And I was told when I got back into

00:26:31.040 radio, they said, no, we want you to, we really want you to sharpen those skills again.

00:26:34.820 And that's really when I started being hypercritical, uh, of the liberal government,

00:26:40.400 sometimes of him personally, uh, well in his capacity as prime minister. And, but if he were

00:26:46.460 to call me right now, I would, I would try to, and he wanted to talk. I would, I would absolutely

00:26:51.760 listen. I'd say, I hope you don't mind. I gave it to you pretty hard on the radio today,

00:26:54.860 but I would hope there would be an understanding. Those are the things that's what you signed up for.

00:26:59.840 That's what you signed up for. And, um, you know, I, I have been outwardly and publicly angry

00:27:05.840 of, at some of the policies that some of the cynical politics that have been played. I've

00:27:10.460 called him out on them. Uh, I don't know what goes into doing his job as much as I saw my dad doing

00:27:16.160 it. So I'm, I'm, I'm approaching it from an outsider's perspective, but I respect people who,

00:27:22.000 um, who go into that, uh, you know, who throw themselves into that, uh, into that world. And,

00:27:27.520 and, uh, and so he's got my respect on that front. And he also has my respect on how he treated my

00:27:33.120 father. He treated him very, very well. And the fact that it was a liberal government treating a

00:27:38.180 conservative prime minister that way is unheard of. We do not have a tradition in this country of

00:27:43.700 respectful, uh, respectful treatment of former prime ministers. Once you're out, they turf you.

00:27:50.540 And, and it's almost like you're, you're shuttled off into the, into the political hinterland,

00:27:54.840 even though every single prime minister who leaves has institutional knowledge and relationships that

00:28:00.120 could benefit the next guy. And, and I think he probably realized he didn't have an entry point

00:28:04.680 into the Trump organization, uh, the first or second time. And so, uh, I'm sure there was a little

00:28:11.400 bit of political opportunism on that front. Hey, let's bring in the only guy we know who knows

00:28:16.440 Donald Trump, but the end result was he treated my father with great respect. And, uh, and I, and I,

00:28:22.800 so I had a lot of time for him on that front.

00:28:24.420 That was a very, very gracious response. Uh, nothing less of you. I think my, my antipathy

00:28:31.640 towards, uh, Justin Trudeau is, well, it's twofold. Yes. Of course, many of his positions

00:28:38.020 were, I mean, I always have said that he is a walking manifestation of both the parasitic mind

00:28:43.800 and my forthcoming book, suicidal empathy. I mean, he is the exemplar, but I also think

00:28:50.100 there was an element, his, his unique performative style created a lot of animus, not just in me.

00:28:57.540 So for example, she-covery instead of recovery, she said, so it, it, it's at a, it's, it's at a

00:29:04.340 level that exceeds my infinite capacity for satire that you can't believe that this human being

00:29:11.860 exists. So now, so I don't, I don't doubt, by the way, that you're absolutely truthful about how

00:29:18.060 kind he was to your dad. I suspect that if I sat down with him for dinner, he'd be a lovely guy.

00:29:23.540 That does take away from the fact that there was an, this kind of substitute drama teacher

00:29:30.000 wolf formative nonsense that was just, it, it was so galling. So in your personal interactions

00:29:37.940 with him, would you see some of that stuff and go, Hey, Justin, can you tone it down a bit?

00:29:42.360 So I have not spent any meaningful time with him. Uh, since, since I saw that, you know, in,

00:29:50.260 in the beginning it was, you see a little bit of theatrics and it's like, all right, all right,

00:29:53.700 well, it's different than the, than the academic that was Stephen Harper. So you, you appreciate it

00:29:58.880 as different. Uh, and then, but all of a sudden, you know, the emperor has no clothes. You can't see him,

00:30:04.500 but any other way, you can't unring the bell. And I wasn't, um, and I kept hoping, why aren't other

00:30:11.140 people seeing what I'm seeing here? And then I, at one point I was exclusively frustrated with the

00:30:16.340 world for not seeing it, the, the, the dramatics and the, uh, the, the flourishes and the, um, over

00:30:23.120 the top language. And, uh, and then, then all of a sudden everybody did start seeing it yet. And then

00:30:28.840 once they saw it, they couldn't turn it off. And so, and, and, and at that point, right? Like you

00:30:34.980 don't, it's your goose is cooked. Once that happens, you can't, once people see you that way, that's how

00:30:39.980 they see you. Uh, and, but I completely agree. And I, and, and I, and I was, I was angry, but I try to

00:30:46.380 separate. I don't like to be personal in my political attacks. I really don't. Um, I leave that to

00:30:53.660 others and I give space on my show to others to make, to level those types of criticisms. I don't

00:30:58.720 like doing it. Uh, I think there's plenty to judge him on in, uh, also I wasn't there. I wasn't in the

00:31:05.260 arena with the man when he disrespected the women in his cabinet, for example, I'll let the women in 1.00

00:31:10.600 his cabinet come on my show and talk about his, his, uh, his mistreatment of them. And, and so, uh, and I

00:31:17.480 think I, I, I think there was just, there was enough to criticize, um, the, the, the ideology. You

00:31:23.040 remember that in 2015, we were promised evidence-based policy and we got anything, but we got

00:31:27.880 ideology-based policy, despite, uh, you know, I don't, I don't mind when a politician takes us

00:31:34.400 down a road and it turns out it was the wrong road, but have the decency and the common sense

00:31:39.320 to back up, do a three-point turn and take us somewhere else. These guys did not care. And,

00:31:44.600 and, and that's the stuff that angered me despite the, and, and I'll, I'll finish my long-winded

00:31:50.540 response with this. The part that really set me off that angered me the most is we find ourselves

00:31:56.380 in the position that we find ourselves in today due entirely to bad decisions and cynical decisions

00:32:02.020 made by the liberal government. Meaning the, uh, uh, two years ago, or maybe, maybe not. Let's say

00:32:07.540 one year ago, 80% of Canadians wanted an election. They deserved an election. We, we went to the polls

00:32:12.800 in, um, uh, 2019 and he got a minority with the, and that's the people telling him,

00:32:18.380 we do not trust you with the keys to the kingdom. We're going to keep you on a short leash and we're

00:32:23.660 going to pull, uh, pull the ripcord anytime we want. And typically in Canada, minority governments 0.94

00:32:29.420 last between nine and 18 months. So then what does he do? He throws us to the polls in the middle of a

00:32:35.020 pandemic and says, it's the most consequential election of our, of our lifetime. And what does he

00:32:41.380 get? Virtually the same result. Well, now he's not happy because the polls told him he was going to

00:32:45.880 get a majority and it didn't happen. So now he's not happy. So what does he do? He gets into bed

00:32:50.120 with the NDP so that he can act as if he has a majority. And what does that do? It deprives the

00:32:55.840 people of what they told him twice. We don't trust you to, to, to govern for five years. We want to be

00:33:02.420 able to pull the plug within a year. And we were deprived of that choice. And despite all the,

00:33:07.300 the, the, the, uh, the scandal, a scandal after scandal, and despite the looming threat of an

00:33:13.000 American, uh, an American, um, a presidency that we knew was antagonistic to him because he had been

00:33:19.360 antagonistic to Trump. Despite that, when everybody said it's time for an election, what does he do?

00:33:24.620 He puts party over country and has a liberal leadership right race. And, and while, while the

00:33:30.440 rest of the world is planning and girding and communicating and telegraphing and taking

00:33:36.500 meetings in Washington, we were doing none of that because the liberals had to put on their

00:33:41.420 little leadership pageant. And, and now we find ourselves, and now they got the big baddie that

00:33:45.820 they want. They got the big baddie that they want. And, and, and it's perfect because everyone's so

00:33:50.660 scared of him. They don't have to pay for the last 10 years. So, so that elicits real anger in me

00:33:56.900 because I feel it was anti-democratic. It was cynical and it has hurt the entire country.

00:34:01.820 What do you, what, I mean, I, I think I can imagine what you're about to answer about my next

00:34:07.820 question, but Mark Carney versus Justin Trudeau. Some people have said, well, he's just a less

00:34:16.420 outwardly woke looking, but more dangerous guy. Others. So there are all sorts of different,

00:34:22.860 uh, you know, I've heard, what are your thoughts as to how you contextualize Mark Carney versus Justin

00:34:29.000 Trudeau? Well, say what you will about Justin Trudeau. We knew who he was. He wasn't hiding who

00:34:35.980 he was. Who the hell is Mark Carney? Right. He doesn't do, he doesn't do long form interviews.

00:34:41.160 The longest thing I ever saw him do was, uh, Les Cinq Chefs, um, in Quebec where he, uh, his, his,

00:34:48.260 his terrible French was on full display. Uh, he hasn't sat for a long form interview. We don't know 0.87

00:34:54.720 what his financial holdings on. Therefore, we don't know what his, uh, we don't know what his,

00:34:59.120 um, conflicts of interest are. If any, there are serious questions about how he views a Canada,

00:35:05.920 China relationship. All, all fair, good faith questions, uh, that are not over the top.

00:35:12.240 They're not targeting of him. These are questions that come from things he said in the past and,

00:35:16.680 and, and decisions he's made in the present. So we don't know these things. We have his book

00:35:21.360 values that, that, uh, that speaks of, uh, how corrosive the capitalist system is.

00:35:27.180 He hasn't been, he hasn't sat for an interview on that. Uh, he has said that he is not going to

00:35:32.200 get rid of bill C 69, which makes it impossible to build pipelines, but he's going to make Canada

00:35:36.140 energy superpower. He got the, he got the name of the Ecole Polytechnique, uh, massacre wrong

00:35:41.860 called Concordia. Why is that? Probably because he doesn't often think about it probably because he

00:35:46.760 hasn't spent a lot of time in Canada. How much time has he spent here? Where does he live?

00:35:50.900 We don't know. So, uh, so that's the thing that concerns me the most. He wants to be prime

00:35:57.940 minister. He's in, he's within, uh, uh, within it's within sight for him. And we don't know

00:36:04.900 anything about this man. He has not been properly vetted. And, uh, this election campaign is showing

00:36:10.860 me that there isn't much of an interest in vetting him by certain influential people in the media.

00:36:16.000 Um, is he more dangerous? He could be, he could be, uh, he, he, he, he could be, he could be a

00:36:22.340 genius. He really could be the smartest guy in the room. He really could be the big brain that Canada

00:36:26.540 needs. I have seen no evidence to make me comfortable with that theory. What, what really,

00:36:33.760 uh, gulls me, uh, this applies not just for the Canadian politics, but more generally regarding the

00:36:40.080 architecture of the human mind is the unwillingness of most people to alter their opinions on something

00:36:47.900 despite endless amount of evidence that I might offer you. And so specifically regarding Carney,

00:36:54.560 I, I, I get tons of people who come up to me, you know, they recognize me on the street and say,

00:36:58.560 Oh, Professor Saad, I love everything you say. I love, I usually answer. I then say, well, thank you.

00:37:04.080 That's very kind. Do you mind if I ask who you're going to vote for and vote for in the next election?

00:37:08.780 And then immediately the answer is, Oh, you know, I'm going to vote liberal. I'm going to vote Carney.

00:37:12.740 And then I say, but do you do realize that nearly every single position that I could have ever taken

00:37:17.400 would be contrary to Carney. And yet you just said before that, that you would, you know, you love

00:37:23.080 everything that I do. My point being that most people are cognitive misers and that they don't actually

00:37:30.420 take the necessary time to think about policies and so on. It is at that level of stupidity. 1.00

00:37:37.080 I am a rural person. Therefore, I'm going to vote for the party that has the word liberal on it. 1.00

00:37:44.060 Conservative sounds ominous and old fashioned, but I live in a cool area of Montreal where everybody

00:37:51.280 is liberal. That's why. Now it sounds, it sounds as though I'm being hyperbolic, but I'm not.

00:37:56.640 Is there a way for us to ever alter that? Or is this an indelible part of how people think or lack

00:38:04.100 thereof? Well, I'm finding it really interesting in this campaign. I have friends who say I'm not

00:38:10.400 going to vote for Pierre Polyev because he's mean. First of all, I haven't seen evidence of that. I've

00:38:15.440 seen plenty of evidence of the liberals being mean. But maybe it's maybe I've got my own biases there,

00:38:21.240 which I try to take into account on my show. But even if that's the case, I'd rather someone who's

00:38:28.060 mean, who's going to fix the messes that we've been in and somebody who's super nice, who's who's

00:38:33.300 partly responsible for the disaster that is a great many aspects of our economy and our society.

00:38:38.840 And I don't understand a lot of these people. You are no more you're no you're no better off today

00:38:45.220 than you were six months ago when you were going to vote for Pierre Polyev. And the only reason

00:38:51.600 you're going to change is because you think you think he's mean. I don't understand how anyone in

00:38:57.260 this moment could could make that choice. Look, if you want to tell me that you believe in Mark

00:39:03.580 Carney's policies more than Pierre Polyev's, that's a debate I'm more than willing to entertain. Let's talk

00:39:09.780 about that. If you can find some policies of of the liberals that weren't directly lifted from Pierre

00:39:15.020 Polyev, we can have that conversation. But you want to have a question about tone? Tone is the top of

00:39:21.860 the list of things that are important to you in this election. I don't I don't know how to talk to

00:39:26.460 somebody like that. But by the way, it's the exact same reality that you just described for Donald

00:39:32.380 Trump, right? And I talk about this in one of my books, right? I basically argue that all of my

00:39:36.820 academic colleagues, despite despise Donald Trump, because he serves as an aesthetic injury to their

00:39:44.200 progressive sensibility, right? So I'm speaking now as if I were one of those progressive guys. How could

00:39:51.760 such an ogre ascend to the highest office that would invalidate the way that I learned to speak with a

00:39:59.600 progressive lisp and hold my pinky when I drink my espresso? Either it invalidates me or he has to be

00:40:06.020 invalidated. So I think that speaks to exactly what you said. I don't like the way Polyev speaks. I'm

00:40:11.540 speaking as your liberal friend. Yeah. And therefore, he's mean, and I don't want him. And I hate to say

00:40:16.920 it, Ben, but I think that's how people make their decisions when it comes to their politicians.

00:40:21.920 I mean, I don't remember it being like that before. I don't I was about ideas. And it was about

00:40:27.820 vision. And, you know, back, back when my dad won his two majorities, you know, the debates mattered,

00:40:34.140 the debates swung the election for him in both cases. And in one case, it was one moment in

00:40:41.860 particular. And so, you know, it's available for anybody to see online. I bet you if somebody

00:40:46.280 googled best debate moment in Canadian political history, the John Turner, Brian Mulroney, you had

00:40:51.700 an option, sir, moment would come up. And I don't remember it being about how how it made people feel.

00:40:58.920 I mean, that being said, Justin Trudeau made people feel good. But you would think after

00:41:03.040 four kicks at the fourth kick in the can, they'd say, OK, well, feelings didn't really get us to

00:41:08.400 where we needed to be. Maybe we should try something different. I mean, this is akin,

00:41:13.140 Gad, to burning your hand on the stove and putting it back on three more times. Yeah, you should you

00:41:18.760 should. We should have gotten the idea after the first. I'll give you one after the second.

00:41:24.100 And then it's on us. And but it's it's the old adage. You get the government you deserve.

00:41:29.500 Indeed. All right. Let's talk some personal stuff. What animates the excitement when Ben gets out of

00:41:37.000 bed and he kind of goes like this? Is it all here are the guests that are coming on my show? Of course,

00:41:42.980 top of that list is Professor Gatsad or something. What what what drives your happiness? Because I see

00:41:49.180 you even on social media and I should learn from you. Although I think I'm a very warm person. If you

00:41:53.940 come after me, I can be punchy and I can go after people. Yeah. Whereas I always see you. You're

00:42:00.860 always even keeled. Even when people come after you hard, you're you have a very pleasant, jovial

00:42:06.420 disposition. So what makes Ben Mulroney happy? Well, what gets me to jump out of bed in the morning

00:42:13.500 professionally is is just the idea of doing this show. I'd never in my wildest dreams thought that

00:42:20.280 it would be this satisfying. And this is the first time in my career where my name is in what I do.

00:42:26.720 It was never your morning with Ben Mulroney. It was never e-talk with Ben Mulroney. It was never any of

00:42:30.760 those things. This is the Ben Mulroney show. And the fact that I have the support at my course that I

00:42:38.420 have for my producer, who is the other half of my brain and the head of radio, who who was the one who

00:42:44.080 brought me in, I get out of bed every day, so excited just to do the show. And I like it when

00:42:51.100 when something surprises us. It's great to have a big name guest. But I like those days where we don't

00:42:57.820 know what's going to happen or a guest doesn't show up. All right, what are we going to do? That's

00:43:00.940 exciting. And as far so that I've never I've never knew I could be this, this happy doing a job.

00:43:08.520 And when it comes to Twitter, I, my policy is it doesn't really matter. And there are people who

00:43:16.960 take it too seriously. And there are also some terrible debaters online. And I approach every

00:43:21.500 engagement, even if it's with someone I disagree with, it might be a little saucy, might be a little

00:43:24.980 spicy, but it'll always be respectful. If somebody decides that they're going to turn the dial all the

00:43:30.380 way to disrespectful. I wish at this point, they would learn because you're not going to beat me.

00:43:35.580 You're not. I'm going to I can beat anybody in 240 characters, or how many? It's not a long form

00:43:45.320 debate. No one's asking me to write an essay. But in four or five sentences, I'm going it's not going

00:43:50.440 to end the way you want it to end. And the key gap is you got to learn to just set the trap and walk

00:43:56.200 away and not care about anyone. Do you feel that your, you know, respectful approach in some of these

00:44:03.160 spicy interactions on social media is just the unique combination of genes that make Ben Mulroney?

00:44:09.140 Or is this something that was instilled by your parents? Because, you know, they obviously have

00:44:13.980 to be austere and respectful. You're Prime Minister of Canada. Is this something that, you know, you

00:44:18.880 learn through osmosis through that? Or is this who Ben is? I think probably a combination, probably a

00:44:26.760 little bit of a little bit of my dad, I think he liked to tussle. I think he liked to get in the last

00:44:31.960 word, the last jab that made people chuckle, all while handing him the victory in the conversation.

00:44:38.380 When I was younger, I was, I had my head in the clouds. I was a daydreamer. I was a, I was a creative

00:44:45.580 thinker. And then I went to law school, because I really was quite an immature kid coming out of

00:44:51.160 college. And I needed some more education. And, and so I grew up a lot in, in law school, but I think

00:44:57.060 it rewired my brain to be able to think more analytically, and more efficiently and effectively

00:45:02.300 access both of those two sides, and of my brain pretty well. And I think that probably serves me

00:45:09.320 in a debate to be think creatively, but with a with an analytical framework. I mean, it's a theory of

00:45:17.900 mine. But you never when you, I mean, the fact that you got your law training, and that allowed you to

00:45:24.220 have a more analytical mind is benefit enough, but you never practice in the legal profession.

00:45:30.620 No, no, I knew very early on, that, that I didn't want to be a lawyer. And were I to become a lawyer,

00:45:38.040 I would be a very bad one. Why? Because I think good lawyers view it as a calling good lawyers view

00:45:46.580 the law. And the pursuit of a legal career as they're entrusted with it, right? The law is

00:45:54.380 something that needs that's living and breathing, and it needs to be shaped and needs to grow and you

00:45:59.740 have to care for it. I only saw letters on a page. And my friends who derive the most satisfaction out

00:46:05.520 of being a lawyer, really, they take such pride in the fact that they get to be lawyers. And I never

00:46:11.840 saw it that way. Now, I'm very thankful that I went to law school helped me negotiate a number of

00:46:15.780 contracts without having to pay a lawyer. And so it saved me some money. But look, you got to find

00:46:21.560 the thing that you're good at. And you got to find the thing that gives you joy. And that wouldn't

00:46:24.500 have given me any joy.

00:46:26.460 So what are the, you're in your late 40s right now, correct?

00:46:30.700 49, just turned 49.

00:46:31.840 49. Okay. So next 20 years, of course, with the old expression, you want to make God laugh,

00:46:38.700 tell him your plans. So withstanding that maxim, where do you see yourself going? Just growing your

00:46:45.460 show, writing a book?

00:46:48.240 I've got, yeah, on day one, when we started doing the show, I set a goal. It's a bold goal,

00:46:54.380 but it's also a broad goal. It can mean anything. I said, I want to make my show undeniable. I want

00:46:59.140 it to be something that, you know, politicians and newsmakers have to go through and would want

00:47:04.700 to go through in order to get to wherever they, whoever they're talking to. So that's, and I don't

00:47:09.280 know what that means. And I don't know what that looks like. And I don't know when we're going to get

00:47:12.780 there if ever, but that's, you know, that's the goal to chase. I've got a number of companies that

00:47:20.140 I do advisory work for that are early stage startups, and I really want to help them succeed

00:47:26.400 in any way I can. I've, I work with some terrific CEOs who've got tremendous vision and I learn a lot

00:47:33.380 from them and I try to bring my skills to bear on, on their vision. So I really, really like to see

00:47:38.700 these companies succeed because they deserve it. And, uh, and I, uh, I I've, I've written

00:47:45.140 along with my best friend, uh, the first of a number of children's books that, uh, I would,

00:47:53.060 they're, they're Christmas books, uh, about an elf. Uh, and, uh, uh, I won't, I won't give too much

00:47:59.400 away, but it made us laugh. We said to ourselves, I never got to see my friend. And I said, Hey,

00:48:04.220 I got this idea for a book and nobody makes me laugh as much as you. And I never get to see you

00:48:08.900 anymore. So how about we write this together? In a worst case scenario, we have a, something we

00:48:13.560 can pass on to our kids and our grandkids in a best case scenario, who knows? Well, now we're in,

00:48:18.300 we're in some significant talks where we're going to be able to do something fun with it.

00:48:22.440 And, uh, but my dad always used to say, don't, don't talk about it until, until it's done. So I've

00:48:27.820 given you just a little bit, but, but it's done in that I was able to, uh, build out my friendship

00:48:33.400 with my friend in such a great way and spend time with them and do this creative thing with them.

00:48:37.200 Oh, that's lovely. Listen, uh, next time that you come to Montreal, I hope that you will think

00:48:42.080 about maybe, uh, contacting me. Maybe we can hang out, go for a coffee. So that would be fantastic.

00:48:48.200 Uh, I, I knew that we would have a great conversation, but you've exceeded my expectations

00:48:52.540 in that you are even more charming than I thought you would be. Thank you so much for coming on the

00:48:56.780 show. Stay on the line so we could say goodbye offline. And you're of course, welcome to come

00:49:00.640 back anytime you'd like. Thank you, Ged. Cheers. Take care.

The Saad Truth with Dr. Saad - April 09, 2025

Ben Mulroney - On Canadian Politics and Justin Trudeau (The Saad Truth with Dr. Saad_817)

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