Ben Mulroney - On Canadian Politics and Justin Trudeau (The Saad Truth with Dr. Saad_817)
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Summary
Ben Mulroney was born in Montreal, Canada, and grew up there. He grew up in a family of immigrants and went to McGill University, where he went to law school, got a law degree, and became a lawyer. He married his first wife at the age of 16, when he was 21, and they had a son, who was named after his father, a former Prime Minister, who died at a young age. In this episode, Ben talks about his life growing up in Canada, his relationship with his mother, and how he and his father s name became such a symbol of Canada.
Transcript
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leaders who drive global economic and social progress. Visit northwood.edu. Hi everybody, this
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is Gatsad for the Sad Truth. I think I would not be wrong in saying that this is the first time that
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I have one person removed from the Prime Minister of Canada, Ben Mulroney, son of Brian Mulroney. How
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are you doing, sir? Gatsad, really, really pleased to be here on your podcast. So am I, and I don't
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like the fact that this might be a case where my guest is better looking than me. I don't feel
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comfortable with that. I have a very fragile, but I don't like it. Thank you for saying that. Thank
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you. I was always told I had a face for radio. I'm finally doing that. So. Oh, I think I think
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you're modest. Okay, let's start. Let's start with it. I hope that I mean, I don't know if you get
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upset when people introduce you as your father's son, but obviously he was the Prime Minister from I
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think 1984 to 1993. Is this something that you wear as a badge of honor? Or would you prefer that?
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Hey, no, I don't want you to constantly refer to my dad. No, no, I love it. I mean, this is that the
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name carries so much weight. It means so much to so many people. And it really was in in in full
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display at my dad's funeral. In fact, in the weeks leading up to my dad's funeral, I can't tell you how
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many people stopped me on the street, sent me DMs, called into the show to say what he meant to them.
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And so I wear it as a badge of honor, I was named after his father, who was an electrician on the
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North Shore of Quebec in Bay Como. So I'm Benedict Mulroney had a Brian Mulroney, who had a Benedict
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Mulroney, and I named one of my sons Brian Mulroney. So it's a I'm very, very proud of the name.
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Now, I was just checking. I mean, I thought you had obviously big ties to Quebec. But I don't think I
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knew that you were born in Montreal. So as you know, Montreal for many years, do you return often to
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Montreal? What do you think? Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely. I go back to Montreal all the time. My, my, my
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mother, when when my parents were empty nesters moved out of Westmount and moved into Montreal in the old
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Mariannopolis building. And it's just a stunning, stunning place with the best view you've ever seen of the
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most beautiful city in North America. And my in laws are still there. I still have great friends there. And I come
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back from time to time, especially in this new iteration of my career, as I do my best to stand up for causes
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that are important to me, most notably anti Semitism. I've come back to, to speak at a number of fireside chats and
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keynotes. And so it keeps me tethered to the city I love, especially to help with a cause that's so important to me.
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Well, you're speaking of anti Semitism. I mean, in an indirect way, your wife is Jewish, correct?
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Yes. Yes, she is. She is. And she's also from Montreal.
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She, she, she actually lived about a block and a half, maybe not that maybe five, 10 blocks away
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from my parents house. And when I was young and stupid, and entirely smitten, I would, I would drive
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by her house just on the off chance that I might see her. And it's only after I went to law school that
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I realized that I probably fit the legal definition of a stalker.
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Now that she married me, she's married me. So the point is moot.
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How much did you have to cajole her and court her before she agreed to actually go out on a date with
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That's, that's a great question. I, I think I was taken by her the first time I saw her
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and I was probably 17. And we didn't go out on our first date till two years before we got
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married. We were married for six. Yeah, it probably, it probably took over 12 or 13 years.
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Okay. So let's talk briefly about your career for the past 20 plus years. I mean, historically,
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you've been associated say with CTV or other outlets as a TV slash radio personality, but it's
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only recently that you went completely independent and on your own.
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Well, I'm not completely independent. I actually work for chorus, but I am given no editorial direction
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to do my show. I get to pick the guests I want. I get to talk about the topics that matter to me.
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And I've never been told by anyone higher up anything, but job well done, keep doing what
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you're doing. And so in that way, I am far less, far less controlled and in a far less controlling
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environment than I've ever been in before. Now, do you, do you feel though, that prior to your
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current arrangement, you would have been much more on a leash whereby I wouldn't have expected you to
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reach out to Gad Saad for him to come? Yeah. Yeah. Well, yes. I mean, in television,
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everything is done. It's such a collaborative medium. And, and even though you're the tip of
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the sword, that you're the front facing person that everybody sees, you're by no means in control
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of editorial narrative, be it in entertainment news or, or anything else. And I mean, I remember,
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do you remember when that hashtag was circulating? I don't know, less than seven, eight years ago about
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bring our girls home. And they had everybody. I thought it was such a silly thing to, to do,
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to, to do, I didn't want to do it. I thought it was performative and I thought it wasn't going to
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achieve anything. And I thought we were all going to look really silly. And I was told it would be
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much better if everybody on the show did it. And so I did it. And I, and then the pushback was
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immediate. It was, of course it was silly. And it's not, we're not bringing anybody home by doing this.
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And, and so that was just one small thing, but I do remember when I pivoted to morning television,
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when Canada AM, the CTV's national morning show was sent out to pasture and they want to rebrand
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and breathe new life into morning television. I, I took, I took over and I, I, we helped build
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your morning. I remember during one of the first black history months, we had a number of very well
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educated people. I believe that a couple of professors on the show who kept referring to
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Canada as a slave owning nation. Now that's factually incorrect. The practice of slaveholding
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was outlawed in the British empire 70 years before Canada became a nation. Now was there slavery in
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British North America? Yes, of course. But, but I had these people repeating this and I, and I remember
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in a meeting saying, I'm going to correct somebody the next time they say that. And I was told,
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no, no, no, don't do that. And fortunately it didn't come up again, but I was very surprised
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by that. I mean, look, I think Canada has got enough to answer for enough skeletons in our closet,
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enough mistakes that were made historically that we don't need to create new ones. We don't,
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I don't like being responsible for the ills of other countries. I don't like being responsible for
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the criminal behavior of say a murderous police officer in the United States. That's their issue to deal
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with. And yet we seem to import all of those problems, take them on ourselves, self-flagellate
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and show everybody how terrible we are, but how we want to do better, but we don't really do the
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things we need to make ourselves better. Yeah, indeed. We'll, we'll get down to some of the woke
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stuff that is unique to Canada in a bit. And I think I might've touched upon that some of the stuff
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when I first appeared on your show, but are there, are there a lot of differences say between your own
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personal politics as compared to say your dad, are there glaring differences or, you know, you're pretty
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Uh, I'm sure there were small differences. Uh, I'm sure there were, um, yeah, I'm sure there were
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small differences. I'm a policy here or there, but broad strokes. No, I think we, we all saw, we saw,
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we saw where Canada should go and where, what Canada should be doing, uh, in, uh, in very similar
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ways. You know, I, I, I believe that, um, a dollar earned by an individual is best spent by that
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individual. Um, but I also believe in a robust social safety net. I believe that Canada was built
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on immigration, uh, and when done responsibly up until say 10 years ago, it was, um, a crowning
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achievement in Canada that you could have so many diverse and divergent perspectives that could all
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agree on this one important issue. Um, I, I, I believe that most, uh, most, most programs in the, um,
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uh, of the federal government should be viewed as expenses, not as investments, but there are some
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that are true investments. For example, um, childcare, I I've seen the studies that demonstrate
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that when you, you know, for every dollar you invest in childcare, I think there's something
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like $7 that come back, uh, because you freed up a family to be more productive. Uh, and so,
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you know, I, I've, you know, those tests that you can take online dad that tell you where you fall
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on the political spectrum. Every time I take it, every time I take it, I fall dead center. I'm as close
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to being a centrist as you can be. Now the political parties change. And so depending on
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who's in power, I'm viewed as extreme this or extreme that, but according to the 500 questions
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you have to answer, I'm a centrist. You know, so I came to Canada in 1975. I was, I had just
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turned 11. Uh, and just in my time in Canada, I've seen gigantic changes regrettably with infinite
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regret. Most of them for the, for the worse. So for example, I remember that in Montreal,
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we, uh, the, the city would always pride itself that as the snow is falling, you know, they're
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coming and cleaning the snow. Yeah. Sort of as if, you know, you, you could never have any snow
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buildup because snow removal is so good. Whereas now you could have a double blizzard that lasts for
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eight to 10 days before they come around. Of course I would argue, and I think I'm right
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that that comes eventually from the stressors of having an infinitely generous welfare state,
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whereby you keep increasing our taxes and some things won't have to give. So the healthcare used
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to be better 30, 40 years. Today we're forced to take private healthcare, even though we pay the
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highest possible taxes. Yeah. Do you, can you foresee ever an auto correction? Maybe this leads
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us to the current that's coming up. Do you ever see taxes greatly being reduced in Canada or is the
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train ever more going in one direction? Well, I, I would like to live it. I don't pretend to be an
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expert in, in, in tax systems, uh, but I pay them. So I'm an expert in that and never have we been
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putting more into the system and all three levels of government and getting less out and what we are
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and what, what little we're getting out is, is the outcomes have never been worse. Uh, I look at
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healthcare, for example, you know, uh, but a lot of that can be traced, I think, to bloated bureaucracy.
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Uh, and a lot of it can be traced to, um, in poor vision for the country. Uh, you know, every,
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every time I hear the, the liberal party say, Oh, the conservatives voted against housing and they voted
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against childcare. No, they didn't. They voted against your, your programs and your, and your
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programs did nothing but reduce the number of childcare spots and your program did nothing but
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slow down housing. But, but I read somewhere that the national, I think it was in the national post
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when you're a party that believes that your interests are the country's interests, you can
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say nonsense like that. And so, uh, I, I think Polly have said it very well. He said, look,
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if I become prime minister and I open up the books of the federal government, I don't know what I'm
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going to find. I suspect it's going to be a worse mess than, than we've been led to believe. And so
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he said, I don't know how much I'm going to be able to, um, put into defense immediately, but I can
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promise you, I'm going to get rid of the bloat. I'm going to get rid of the pet projects and the, um,
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and, and, and the, the, the, the, the, the spending that isn't core to what we need to be doing. And I'm
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going to stick to the stuff that we're really good at. Now, do I think that a robust social safety net
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is, is important? Yeah, I do. I, I think, I think Canada has an obligation, uh, to, to, uh, help out
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those, uh, who need it. And, uh, and we've always been generous that way. Um, but do I think that a
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program that came into effect six months ago, like dental care, do I think that that is, should be
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enshrined in stone? No, I think we should look at it. I, I, I, and, and I remember a program that came
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out a few, a few months before the election where, where they said, oh, we're going to, we're going to put a
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billion dollars into a pot to feed kids before school. I was like, with all due respect, if you
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gave me some of my own money back, I could feed my own kids. And not that I have a problem feeding
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my kids, but I was speaking on behalf of my listeners. Uh, so there's certain things that
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government shouldn't be doing. They shouldn't be sowing chaos and then coming in and pretending
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to be the agent of order to restore, uh, to restore order from that chaos. If you create it,
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all you gotta do is get rid of the chaos. We don't need you coming up with a new government
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program to restore the, the order. You mentioned, uh, Poiliev, so let's talk about that. Uh,
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so he had, I can't remember the exact maximal lead he had, but let's, let's go with, I don't
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know, maybe 40 points, 30, 35 points, whatever, whatever that number is was. And now it certainly
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seems to have reversed. Now, some have argued, and I think there's some, one can lend credence
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to it, that he, in a sense, he's maybe doing the Kamala Harris thing whereby he, he hasn't
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worked hard enough to, for example, you know, why, why don't you go on Joe Rogan's show or
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whichever other podcast. Now I've been in touch with him myself and I offered him the, you
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know, the chance to come on my show. Now I don't have the platform of Joe Rogan, but I'm
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no slouch. I think it could be a nice conversation. I'm not sure if you've offered him the same.
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What are your thoughts about what's going on with Poiliev that he's lost this lead? Can he
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still reverse the trend? Give us your thoughts. I will say that I don't pay too much mind to
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daily polls. I don't worry about them. I think they're a good gauge to, for a campaign to
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decide, you know, if they want to pivot and how their message is getting across. But I don't really
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worry about them. My dad used to say the only poll that matters is the poll on election day.
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And, and I subscribe to that. I also take issue with, you know, when I see a poll, for example,
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Gad that says that the liberals are knocking on 50% popular support. The last time a politician
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got 50% of the vote in Canada was 1984. And that was my dad. It was a real change election. There
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was a previous, there was a Trudeau legacy that needed to be held to account. The conservative
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party was the agent of that change. And there were three parties, right? So he got 50% with three
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parties. You're telling me that a party that has a legacy of 10 years that they need to be held to
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account for. There's now being led by a man who three months ago, 76% of Canadians could not pick
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out of a lineup. You're telling me that he, he has been able to do that with five parties. That's
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nonsense. And then when I hear a story today that the majority of Canadians believe that the liberal
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party of Canada would be the most effective steward of resource development in this country,
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restores development. It makes me think that the entire polling industry is made up of a bunch of
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guys sitting in a room with a Ouija board. This is, this doesn't make any sense to me. So that's why
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I don't look at those things because they have their data and they have their reasons, they have
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their, their protocols and their, their workflows. And I'm sure it makes sense to them. It doesn't
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make any sense to me. I'd rather talk to people. I'd rather, I'd rather talk to the voters and find
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out what they're thinking now to go back to your, your question. Can he, can he turn it around? Of
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course he can turn around. He's the heart. He's the hardest working guy in politics. Uh, he's been,
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he's been at this beating this drum for, uh, for 10 years. And there are people who are far less
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partisan than me who acknowledge that had we, uh, had we been adopting the policies that he's been
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advocating for, for the past 10 years, we would not find ourselves in this, in this weakened position
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facing a Donald Trump threat. And that brings me to the third point. It looks like as, as early as
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today, Donald Trump is going to put a 90 day pause on his tariffs on everybody with the exception of
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China. And that could, if the, if the Tories are able to message it properly, that could get people,
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uh, doing what they were doing before, which is looking, uh, in the rear view mirror at the legacy
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of the last 10 years, as opposed to forward, which is where the liberals have had everyone looking
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at the mean, uh, president in front of them. And if, if he's no longer the threat that, uh, the liberals
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have made him out to be like the cause of all your problems, we're not the cause of your problems.
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He's the cause of all your problems. And we are here to, to protect you. Uh, if, uh, if, if, if they could
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change that narrative, then anything can happen. We also have debates. Don't forget his French is so
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terrible. We'll have to see. Yeah, that's right. Uh, do you, do you, so the United States, because of
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Donald Trump, and he's such a unique figure in every imaginable way that whatever auto correction
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was required in the United States would require someone as cataclysmically different from anyone
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else to be able to implement it. Now, notwithstanding that Poilievre is, is, is, is a, is a good guy.
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There are many, many things that I love about Poilievre. And of course the apple is, is a fantastic
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and so on. Reminds me of the spaghetti Westerns of my childhood. I mean, okay, that's all great,
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but do you feel, maybe it's unfair to compare him to someone as kind of historic as Donald Trump.
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Does he have the cataclysmic chutzpah to be able to make the changes that I, I think Canada require,
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or is he still going to be someone perhaps better than the previous administration,
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but still working within the, the margins of the leashes that, that, that are afforded?
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No, I, I think he is the type of politician who is, uh, he, he's the man of the moment. You know,
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there's a, I get this knock on me all the time and, uh, on social media, whenever I dip my toe in the
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politics, uh, someone says, Oh, this, this conservative party is nothing like your dad's
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progressive conservative party. I say, I did, I say to that a couple of things. I say, well,
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maybe, uh, but maybe we don't need the progressive conservative party today. Maybe this is the
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vehicle of change that is needed. And secondly, I say to anybody who says that I promise you the NDP
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of today and the liberal party of today are nothing like the NDP and liberal parties of the eighties
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and nineties. Uh, and so, and the differences are far, it's a difference of degrees between the,
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the, the two Tory parties. It's a difference of light years for those other two parties. Um,
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but, uh, look, I really thought before Donald Trump presented as a threat and he did, I listen,
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I, there are a lot of, of my listeners who very much like him and wanted to see him succeed.
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They thought he was the right choice for America. They thought that the country needed, uh, to shake
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off some really bad ideas and he was going to be the guy to do it. But then he voluntarily presented
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as a threat and called us a threat. Therefore we had to take him seriously. Um, prior to that last
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summer, Pierre Polyev put out a video on, on social media about the productivity gap that has grown
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between Canada and United States since 2050 in the election of Justin Trudeau. It was an incredibly
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convincing, compelling video. He bypassed the, the media completely put out this video. It got a
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million views in a few days. And next thing you know, that's all the media are talking about. So
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it was brilliant and it was done very, very well. And I thought the value proposition for a
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sort of government of Pierre Polyev was automatic. If you want that productivity gap to continue to
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grow, then vote for anyone, but Pierre Polyev, but he is the guy who's going to, um, follow suit
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with the, this notion, not, not that he was, he would do anything that, that, um, that Trump would
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do, but he would follow suit with the vision that the way that you grow a country is to unlock its
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potential, the potential of its entrepreneurial class of its citizens, uh, cutting taxes, cutting red tape,
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um, taking advantage of, of, of the bounty, the natural bounty that God graced us with and not
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being afraid of selling it all over the world to the highest bidder. So long as, uh, they hopefully
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share our values. Um, that to me was an automatic yes to the value proposition of, of, of Pierre Polyev.
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I underestimated the wild card that was the tariffs. And I underestimated the liberals ability to craft a
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narrative that they were somehow the best suited and best positioned to protect against that threat.
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Got you. Uh, have you, I mean, you certainly, well, you're very well spoken. Have you thought
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about yourself going into politics? Is this something that interests you that we want to follow in God's
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footsteps? Uh, my sister is in politics. She's in Doug Ford's provincial, uh, uh, cabinet. She's the
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president of the treasury board. She's the hardest working person I've ever met in my life. If she does
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something, it's, she's going to do it to the best of her ability every single time. The amount of
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effort I see her putting in every day to that job. I don't know that I could do it consistently. I also
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don't know that I have a vision, uh, of, and solutions to bring to bear to problems. I think it's great
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that if you can identify a problem that makes for a very good, uh, radio show host or podcast host
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talking about the problems, but you also have to be able to offer up solutions and that takes
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vision. And I don't know that I necessarily have that. If that were the measure by which we get
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people into politics, 95% of politicians would never be politicians. So I think hard on yourself.
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Okay. Well, let me, I'll, I'll reframe it again. If I ever found that I was no longer, uh, being
00:22:27.720
satisfied by this new, uh, this new world that I'm living in of talk radio and podcasting,
00:22:32.840
if I felt that, that I'd done everything that I wanted to do, I may consider running for mayor
00:22:38.180
of Toronto. Uh, I, I love municipal politics. I feel that that is a level of, of politics that
00:22:43.300
touches people most directly in their daily lives. I think Toronto has a leadership problem. I think
00:22:48.780
that Toronto has a, a values problem. I think there are a lot of problems in the city that can be
00:22:52.980
attributed directly to ideology. And, uh, and I think I wouldn't do it anytime soon, but if I felt
00:23:00.820
that I could be of benefit to that conversation, yeah, I would consider. Okay. Well, I, I told you
00:23:06.780
before we got on that I would ask you this question and I wasn't sure if you'd want to answer it, but
00:23:11.300
then you graciously said you would, we're talking about politics. You are friends. I don't know if you
00:23:16.840
still are, but you were friends with Justin Trudeau. I should say before I even asked the question,
00:23:22.140
I am certainly one of the least possible fans of Justin Trudeau. Uh, tell me about your relationship
00:23:29.740
with him. Tell me whether you've ever discussed any political differences that you might have with
00:23:34.960
him. I'm truly fascinated by that relationship. Yeah. So, uh, first I think you've got a, one thing
00:23:40.160
you have to know about me and my, and my family and our upbringing was we truly believe, and because
00:23:44.480
we saw it in practice and we saw how my dad lived his life, that politics was meant to be fought to the
00:23:49.160
best of your ability. And when the fight was over, you laid down your arms and you treated your
00:23:53.420
adversary with respect. And I, I, I, I see the value in that and appreciation for that. That's why
00:24:00.900
you'll, you'll never hear me accuse someone I disagree with of being a traitor to Canada. They
00:24:05.520
just have a different vision for the country and, and, and let's duke it out in the public arena and may
00:24:10.340
the best ideas win. And so that's the world I came from. And when his father was sick, uh, he was in
00:24:18.120
Montreal and I happened to be there cause I was in law school in Quebec city. I'd go back to see my
00:24:21.280
girlfriend at the time in, um, in Montreal. And all of a sudden I'm in a bar and somebody says a
00:24:26.360
mutual friend of ours introduced us and he was charismatic and charming and, uh, funny. And I
00:24:34.200
spent, uh, and, and I, I recognized in him someone who had experienced what I had experienced. And I'd
00:24:40.780
never felt that before. Uh, there was a counterpoint right there. I was like, Oh, he, this guy probably
00:24:44.900
gets the experience that I've, I've had. And so we formed a fast friendship. Um, and he was kind
00:24:51.720
and open and, um, he, the barriers were down and there was no, no spinning anything. And, uh, and it
00:24:58.780
was, uh, and we became friends and, uh, he, uh, was always generous with his time. Uh, when I moved
00:25:05.340
into television, he, he, oh, he invited me to his wedding. He invited me to his wedding. Uh, and, uh,
00:25:10.680
there were a lot of liberals. They're not happy that I was in the second row. Uh, but, but so, so he
00:25:16.320
was nice that way. And as he went into politics, he was, uh, he would call on my dad and, uh, my dad
00:25:23.960
would answer the phone as he did with everyone. He called when Jack Layton, uh, rode the orange wave
00:25:28.700
to become the leader of the opposition. My dad advised him on how to manage such a big caucus. So he
00:25:34.520
was open with his, uh, with his advice. And, uh, he, prior to him winning in 2015, I went out to
00:25:41.540
dinner, uh, with him and Jessica and his wife, uh, Sophie at the time, and he predicted he would
00:25:46.860
win a majority. I don't think he necessarily believed it, but he predicted he would win a
00:25:49.580
majority. And, and so I had, uh, high hopes for him when he, when he was elected. And I thought,
00:25:57.680
you know, he was, it felt to me like he ran a positive campaign. It wouldn't have been the issues
00:26:02.100
that I would have run on, but I had, I had optimism for him. And then the wheel started
00:26:08.560
falling off pretty quickly. And, um, I didn't really talk politics when I was, uh, when I was
00:26:16.560
on television, it didn't serve my purposes to talk smack about a politician and then try to
00:26:21.360
interview them the next day. So I sort of put my politics aside and, and I realized politics is
00:26:26.200
like a muscle. If you don't exercise it, it, it atrophies. And I was told when I got back into
00:26:31.040
radio, they said, no, we want you to, we really want you to sharpen those skills again.
00:26:34.820
And that's really when I started being hypercritical, uh, of the liberal government,
00:26:40.400
sometimes of him personally, uh, well in his capacity as prime minister. And, but if he were
00:26:46.460
to call me right now, I would, I would try to, and he wanted to talk. I would, I would absolutely
00:26:51.760
listen. I'd say, I hope you don't mind. I gave it to you pretty hard on the radio today,
00:26:54.860
but I would hope there would be an understanding. Those are the things that's what you signed up for.
00:26:59.840
That's what you signed up for. And, um, you know, I, I have been outwardly and publicly angry
00:27:05.840
of, at some of the policies that some of the cynical politics that have been played. I've
00:27:10.460
called him out on them. Uh, I don't know what goes into doing his job as much as I saw my dad doing
00:27:16.160
it. So I'm, I'm, I'm approaching it from an outsider's perspective, but I respect people who,
00:27:22.000
um, who go into that, uh, you know, who throw themselves into that, uh, into that world. And,
00:27:27.520
and, uh, and so he's got my respect on that front. And he also has my respect on how he treated my
00:27:33.120
father. He treated him very, very well. And the fact that it was a liberal government treating a
00:27:38.180
conservative prime minister that way is unheard of. We do not have a tradition in this country of
00:27:43.700
respectful, uh, respectful treatment of former prime ministers. Once you're out, they turf you.
00:27:50.540
And, and it's almost like you're, you're shuttled off into the, into the political hinterland,
00:27:54.840
even though every single prime minister who leaves has institutional knowledge and relationships that
00:28:00.120
could benefit the next guy. And, and I think he probably realized he didn't have an entry point
00:28:04.680
into the Trump organization, uh, the first or second time. And so, uh, I'm sure there was a little
00:28:11.400
bit of political opportunism on that front. Hey, let's bring in the only guy we know who knows
00:28:16.440
Donald Trump, but the end result was he treated my father with great respect. And, uh, and I, and I,
00:28:24.420
That was a very, very gracious response. Uh, nothing less of you. I think my, my antipathy
00:28:31.640
towards, uh, Justin Trudeau is, well, it's twofold. Yes. Of course, many of his positions
00:28:38.020
were, I mean, I always have said that he is a walking manifestation of both the parasitic mind
00:28:43.800
and my forthcoming book, suicidal empathy. I mean, he is the exemplar, but I also think
00:28:50.100
there was an element, his, his unique performative style created a lot of animus, not just in me.
00:28:57.540
So for example, she-covery instead of recovery, she said, so it, it, it's at a, it's, it's at a
00:29:04.340
level that exceeds my infinite capacity for satire that you can't believe that this human being
00:29:11.860
exists. So now, so I don't, I don't doubt, by the way, that you're absolutely truthful about how
00:29:18.060
kind he was to your dad. I suspect that if I sat down with him for dinner, he'd be a lovely guy.
00:29:23.540
That does take away from the fact that there was an, this kind of substitute drama teacher
00:29:30.000
wolf formative nonsense that was just, it, it was so galling. So in your personal interactions
00:29:37.940
with him, would you see some of that stuff and go, Hey, Justin, can you tone it down a bit?
00:29:42.360
So I have not spent any meaningful time with him. Uh, since, since I saw that, you know, in,
00:29:50.260
in the beginning it was, you see a little bit of theatrics and it's like, all right, all right,
00:29:53.700
well, it's different than the, than the academic that was Stephen Harper. So you, you appreciate it
00:29:58.880
as different. Uh, and then, but all of a sudden, you know, the emperor has no clothes. You can't see him,
00:30:04.500
but any other way, you can't unring the bell. And I wasn't, um, and I kept hoping, why aren't other
00:30:11.140
people seeing what I'm seeing here? And then I, at one point I was exclusively frustrated with the
00:30:16.340
world for not seeing it, the, the, the dramatics and the, uh, the, the flourishes and the, um, over
00:30:23.120
the top language. And, uh, and then, then all of a sudden everybody did start seeing it yet. And then
00:30:28.840
once they saw it, they couldn't turn it off. And so, and, and, and at that point, right? Like you
00:30:34.980
don't, it's your goose is cooked. Once that happens, you can't, once people see you that way, that's how
00:30:39.980
they see you. Uh, and, but I completely agree. And I, and, and I, and I was, I was angry, but I try to
00:30:46.380
separate. I don't like to be personal in my political attacks. I really don't. Um, I leave that to
00:30:53.660
others and I give space on my show to others to make, to level those types of criticisms. I don't
00:30:58.720
like doing it. Uh, I think there's plenty to judge him on in, uh, also I wasn't there. I wasn't in the
00:31:05.260
arena with the man when he disrespected the women in his cabinet, for example, I'll let the women in
00:31:10.600
his cabinet come on my show and talk about his, his, uh, his mistreatment of them. And, and so, uh, and I
00:31:17.480
think I, I, I think there was just, there was enough to criticize, um, the, the, the ideology. You
00:31:23.040
remember that in 2015, we were promised evidence-based policy and we got anything, but we got
00:31:27.880
ideology-based policy, despite, uh, you know, I don't, I don't mind when a politician takes us
00:31:34.400
down a road and it turns out it was the wrong road, but have the decency and the common sense
00:31:39.320
to back up, do a three-point turn and take us somewhere else. These guys did not care. And,
00:31:44.600
and, and that's the stuff that angered me despite the, and, and I'll, I'll finish my long-winded
00:31:50.540
response with this. The part that really set me off that angered me the most is we find ourselves
00:31:56.380
in the position that we find ourselves in today due entirely to bad decisions and cynical decisions
00:32:02.020
made by the liberal government. Meaning the, uh, uh, two years ago, or maybe, maybe not. Let's say
00:32:07.540
one year ago, 80% of Canadians wanted an election. They deserved an election. We, we went to the polls
00:32:12.800
in, um, uh, 2019 and he got a minority with the, and that's the people telling him,
00:32:18.380
we do not trust you with the keys to the kingdom. We're going to keep you on a short leash and we're
00:32:23.660
going to pull, uh, pull the ripcord anytime we want. And typically in Canada, minority governments
00:32:29.420
last between nine and 18 months. So then what does he do? He throws us to the polls in the middle of a
00:32:35.020
pandemic and says, it's the most consequential election of our, of our lifetime. And what does he
00:32:41.380
get? Virtually the same result. Well, now he's not happy because the polls told him he was going to
00:32:45.880
get a majority and it didn't happen. So now he's not happy. So what does he do? He gets into bed
00:32:50.120
with the NDP so that he can act as if he has a majority. And what does that do? It deprives the
00:32:55.840
people of what they told him twice. We don't trust you to, to, to govern for five years. We want to be
00:33:02.420
able to pull the plug within a year. And we were deprived of that choice. And despite all the,
00:33:07.300
the, the, the, uh, the scandal, a scandal after scandal, and despite the looming threat of an
00:33:13.000
American, uh, an American, um, a presidency that we knew was antagonistic to him because he had been
00:33:19.360
antagonistic to Trump. Despite that, when everybody said it's time for an election, what does he do?
00:33:24.620
He puts party over country and has a liberal leadership right race. And, and while, while the
00:33:30.440
rest of the world is planning and girding and communicating and telegraphing and taking
00:33:36.500
meetings in Washington, we were doing none of that because the liberals had to put on their
00:33:41.420
little leadership pageant. And, and now we find ourselves, and now they got the big baddie that
00:33:45.820
they want. They got the big baddie that they want. And, and, and it's perfect because everyone's so
00:33:50.660
scared of him. They don't have to pay for the last 10 years. So, so that elicits real anger in me
00:33:56.900
because I feel it was anti-democratic. It was cynical and it has hurt the entire country.
00:34:01.820
What do you, what, I mean, I, I think I can imagine what you're about to answer about my next
00:34:07.820
question, but Mark Carney versus Justin Trudeau. Some people have said, well, he's just a less
00:34:16.420
outwardly woke looking, but more dangerous guy. Others. So there are all sorts of different,
00:34:22.860
uh, you know, I've heard, what are your thoughts as to how you contextualize Mark Carney versus Justin
00:34:29.000
Trudeau? Well, say what you will about Justin Trudeau. We knew who he was. He wasn't hiding who
00:34:35.980
he was. Who the hell is Mark Carney? Right. He doesn't do, he doesn't do long form interviews.
00:34:41.160
The longest thing I ever saw him do was, uh, Les Cinq Chefs, um, in Quebec where he, uh, his, his,
00:34:48.260
his terrible French was on full display. Uh, he hasn't sat for a long form interview. We don't know
00:34:54.720
what his financial holdings on. Therefore, we don't know what his, uh, we don't know what his,
00:34:59.120
um, conflicts of interest are. If any, there are serious questions about how he views a Canada,
00:35:05.920
China relationship. All, all fair, good faith questions, uh, that are not over the top.
00:35:12.240
They're not targeting of him. These are questions that come from things he said in the past and,
00:35:16.680
and, and decisions he's made in the present. So we don't know these things. We have his book
00:35:21.360
values that, that, uh, that speaks of, uh, how corrosive the capitalist system is.
00:35:27.180
He hasn't been, he hasn't sat for an interview on that. Uh, he has said that he is not going to
00:35:32.200
get rid of bill C 69, which makes it impossible to build pipelines, but he's going to make Canada
00:35:36.140
energy superpower. He got the, he got the name of the Ecole Polytechnique, uh, massacre wrong
00:35:41.860
called Concordia. Why is that? Probably because he doesn't often think about it probably because he
00:35:46.760
hasn't spent a lot of time in Canada. How much time has he spent here? Where does he live?
00:35:50.900
We don't know. So, uh, so that's the thing that concerns me the most. He wants to be prime
00:35:57.940
minister. He's in, he's within, uh, uh, within it's within sight for him. And we don't know
00:36:04.900
anything about this man. He has not been properly vetted. And, uh, this election campaign is showing
00:36:10.860
me that there isn't much of an interest in vetting him by certain influential people in the media.
00:36:16.000
Um, is he more dangerous? He could be, he could be, uh, he, he, he, he could be, he could be a
00:36:22.340
genius. He really could be the smartest guy in the room. He really could be the big brain that Canada
00:36:26.540
needs. I have seen no evidence to make me comfortable with that theory. What, what really,
00:36:33.760
uh, gulls me, uh, this applies not just for the Canadian politics, but more generally regarding the
00:36:40.080
architecture of the human mind is the unwillingness of most people to alter their opinions on something
00:36:47.900
despite endless amount of evidence that I might offer you. And so specifically regarding Carney,
00:36:54.560
I, I, I get tons of people who come up to me, you know, they recognize me on the street and say,
00:36:58.560
Oh, Professor Saad, I love everything you say. I love, I usually answer. I then say, well, thank you.
00:37:04.080
That's very kind. Do you mind if I ask who you're going to vote for and vote for in the next election?
00:37:08.780
And then immediately the answer is, Oh, you know, I'm going to vote liberal. I'm going to vote Carney.
00:37:12.740
And then I say, but do you do realize that nearly every single position that I could have ever taken
00:37:17.400
would be contrary to Carney. And yet you just said before that, that you would, you know, you love
00:37:23.080
everything that I do. My point being that most people are cognitive misers and that they don't actually
00:37:30.420
take the necessary time to think about policies and so on. It is at that level of stupidity.
00:37:37.080
I am a rural person. Therefore, I'm going to vote for the party that has the word liberal on it.
00:37:44.060
Conservative sounds ominous and old fashioned, but I live in a cool area of Montreal where everybody
00:37:51.280
is liberal. That's why. Now it sounds, it sounds as though I'm being hyperbolic, but I'm not.
00:37:56.640
Is there a way for us to ever alter that? Or is this an indelible part of how people think or lack
00:38:04.100
thereof? Well, I'm finding it really interesting in this campaign. I have friends who say I'm not
00:38:10.400
going to vote for Pierre Polyev because he's mean. First of all, I haven't seen evidence of that. I've
00:38:15.440
seen plenty of evidence of the liberals being mean. But maybe it's maybe I've got my own biases there,
00:38:21.240
which I try to take into account on my show. But even if that's the case, I'd rather someone who's
00:38:28.060
mean, who's going to fix the messes that we've been in and somebody who's super nice, who's who's
00:38:33.300
partly responsible for the disaster that is a great many aspects of our economy and our society.
00:38:38.840
And I don't understand a lot of these people. You are no more you're no you're no better off today
00:38:45.220
than you were six months ago when you were going to vote for Pierre Polyev. And the only reason
00:38:51.600
you're going to change is because you think you think he's mean. I don't understand how anyone in
00:38:57.260
this moment could could make that choice. Look, if you want to tell me that you believe in Mark
00:39:03.580
Carney's policies more than Pierre Polyev's, that's a debate I'm more than willing to entertain. Let's talk
00:39:09.780
about that. If you can find some policies of of the liberals that weren't directly lifted from Pierre
00:39:15.020
Polyev, we can have that conversation. But you want to have a question about tone? Tone is the top of
00:39:21.860
the list of things that are important to you in this election. I don't I don't know how to talk to
00:39:26.460
somebody like that. But by the way, it's the exact same reality that you just described for Donald
00:39:32.380
Trump, right? And I talk about this in one of my books, right? I basically argue that all of my
00:39:36.820
academic colleagues, despite despise Donald Trump, because he serves as an aesthetic injury to their
00:39:44.200
progressive sensibility, right? So I'm speaking now as if I were one of those progressive guys. How could
00:39:51.760
such an ogre ascend to the highest office that would invalidate the way that I learned to speak with a
00:39:59.600
progressive lisp and hold my pinky when I drink my espresso? Either it invalidates me or he has to be
00:40:06.020
invalidated. So I think that speaks to exactly what you said. I don't like the way Polyev speaks. I'm
00:40:11.540
speaking as your liberal friend. Yeah. And therefore, he's mean, and I don't want him. And I hate to say
00:40:16.920
it, Ben, but I think that's how people make their decisions when it comes to their politicians.
00:40:21.920
I mean, I don't remember it being like that before. I don't I was about ideas. And it was about
00:40:27.820
vision. And, you know, back, back when my dad won his two majorities, you know, the debates mattered,
00:40:34.140
the debates swung the election for him in both cases. And in one case, it was one moment in
00:40:41.860
particular. And so, you know, it's available for anybody to see online. I bet you if somebody
00:40:46.280
googled best debate moment in Canadian political history, the John Turner, Brian Mulroney, you had
00:40:51.700
an option, sir, moment would come up. And I don't remember it being about how how it made people feel.
00:40:58.920
I mean, that being said, Justin Trudeau made people feel good. But you would think after
00:41:03.040
four kicks at the fourth kick in the can, they'd say, OK, well, feelings didn't really get us to
00:41:08.400
where we needed to be. Maybe we should try something different. I mean, this is akin,
00:41:13.140
Gad, to burning your hand on the stove and putting it back on three more times. Yeah, you should you
00:41:18.760
should. We should have gotten the idea after the first. I'll give you one after the second.
00:41:24.100
And then it's on us. And but it's it's the old adage. You get the government you deserve.
00:41:29.500
Indeed. All right. Let's talk some personal stuff. What animates the excitement when Ben gets out of
00:41:37.000
bed and he kind of goes like this? Is it all here are the guests that are coming on my show? Of course,
00:41:42.980
top of that list is Professor Gatsad or something. What what what drives your happiness? Because I see
00:41:49.180
you even on social media and I should learn from you. Although I think I'm a very warm person. If you
00:41:53.940
come after me, I can be punchy and I can go after people. Yeah. Whereas I always see you. You're
00:42:00.860
always even keeled. Even when people come after you hard, you're you have a very pleasant, jovial
00:42:06.420
disposition. So what makes Ben Mulroney happy? Well, what gets me to jump out of bed in the morning
00:42:13.500
professionally is is just the idea of doing this show. I'd never in my wildest dreams thought that
00:42:20.280
it would be this satisfying. And this is the first time in my career where my name is in what I do.
00:42:26.720
It was never your morning with Ben Mulroney. It was never e-talk with Ben Mulroney. It was never any of
00:42:30.760
those things. This is the Ben Mulroney show. And the fact that I have the support at my course that I
00:42:38.420
have for my producer, who is the other half of my brain and the head of radio, who who was the one who
00:42:44.080
brought me in, I get out of bed every day, so excited just to do the show. And I like it when
00:42:51.100
when something surprises us. It's great to have a big name guest. But I like those days where we don't
00:42:57.820
know what's going to happen or a guest doesn't show up. All right, what are we going to do? That's
00:43:00.940
exciting. And as far so that I've never I've never knew I could be this, this happy doing a job.
00:43:08.520
And when it comes to Twitter, I, my policy is it doesn't really matter. And there are people who
00:43:16.960
take it too seriously. And there are also some terrible debaters online. And I approach every
00:43:21.500
engagement, even if it's with someone I disagree with, it might be a little saucy, might be a little
00:43:24.980
spicy, but it'll always be respectful. If somebody decides that they're going to turn the dial all the
00:43:30.380
way to disrespectful. I wish at this point, they would learn because you're not going to beat me.
00:43:35.580
You're not. I'm going to I can beat anybody in 240 characters, or how many? It's not a long form
00:43:45.320
debate. No one's asking me to write an essay. But in four or five sentences, I'm going it's not going
00:43:50.440
to end the way you want it to end. And the key gap is you got to learn to just set the trap and walk
00:43:56.200
away and not care about anyone. Do you feel that your, you know, respectful approach in some of these
00:44:03.160
spicy interactions on social media is just the unique combination of genes that make Ben Mulroney?
00:44:09.140
Or is this something that was instilled by your parents? Because, you know, they obviously have
00:44:13.980
to be austere and respectful. You're Prime Minister of Canada. Is this something that, you know, you
00:44:18.880
learn through osmosis through that? Or is this who Ben is? I think probably a combination, probably a
00:44:26.760
little bit of a little bit of my dad, I think he liked to tussle. I think he liked to get in the last
00:44:31.960
word, the last jab that made people chuckle, all while handing him the victory in the conversation.
00:44:38.380
When I was younger, I was, I had my head in the clouds. I was a daydreamer. I was a, I was a creative
00:44:45.580
thinker. And then I went to law school, because I really was quite an immature kid coming out of
00:44:51.160
college. And I needed some more education. And, and so I grew up a lot in, in law school, but I think
00:44:57.060
it rewired my brain to be able to think more analytically, and more efficiently and effectively
00:45:02.300
access both of those two sides, and of my brain pretty well. And I think that probably serves me
00:45:09.320
in a debate to be think creatively, but with a with an analytical framework. I mean, it's a theory of
00:45:17.900
mine. But you never when you, I mean, the fact that you got your law training, and that allowed you to
00:45:24.220
have a more analytical mind is benefit enough, but you never practice in the legal profession.
00:45:30.620
No, no, I knew very early on, that, that I didn't want to be a lawyer. And were I to become a lawyer,
00:45:38.040
I would be a very bad one. Why? Because I think good lawyers view it as a calling good lawyers view
00:45:46.580
the law. And the pursuit of a legal career as they're entrusted with it, right? The law is
00:45:54.380
something that needs that's living and breathing, and it needs to be shaped and needs to grow and you
00:45:59.740
have to care for it. I only saw letters on a page. And my friends who derive the most satisfaction out
00:46:05.520
of being a lawyer, really, they take such pride in the fact that they get to be lawyers. And I never
00:46:11.840
saw it that way. Now, I'm very thankful that I went to law school helped me negotiate a number of
00:46:15.780
contracts without having to pay a lawyer. And so it saved me some money. But look, you got to find
00:46:21.560
the thing that you're good at. And you got to find the thing that gives you joy. And that wouldn't
00:46:26.460
So what are the, you're in your late 40s right now, correct?
00:46:31.840
49. Okay. So next 20 years, of course, with the old expression, you want to make God laugh,
00:46:38.700
tell him your plans. So withstanding that maxim, where do you see yourself going? Just growing your
00:46:48.240
I've got, yeah, on day one, when we started doing the show, I set a goal. It's a bold goal,
00:46:54.380
but it's also a broad goal. It can mean anything. I said, I want to make my show undeniable. I want
00:46:59.140
it to be something that, you know, politicians and newsmakers have to go through and would want
00:47:04.700
to go through in order to get to wherever they, whoever they're talking to. So that's, and I don't
00:47:09.280
know what that means. And I don't know what that looks like. And I don't know when we're going to get
00:47:12.780
there if ever, but that's, you know, that's the goal to chase. I've got a number of companies that
00:47:20.140
I do advisory work for that are early stage startups, and I really want to help them succeed
00:47:26.400
in any way I can. I've, I work with some terrific CEOs who've got tremendous vision and I learn a lot
00:47:33.380
from them and I try to bring my skills to bear on, on their vision. So I really, really like to see
00:47:38.700
these companies succeed because they deserve it. And, uh, and I, uh, I I've, I've written
00:47:45.140
along with my best friend, uh, the first of a number of children's books that, uh, I would,
00:47:53.060
they're, they're Christmas books, uh, about an elf. Uh, and, uh, uh, I won't, I won't give too much
00:47:59.400
away, but it made us laugh. We said to ourselves, I never got to see my friend. And I said, Hey,
00:48:04.220
I got this idea for a book and nobody makes me laugh as much as you. And I never get to see you
00:48:08.900
anymore. So how about we write this together? In a worst case scenario, we have a, something we
00:48:13.560
can pass on to our kids and our grandkids in a best case scenario, who knows? Well, now we're in,
00:48:18.300
we're in some significant talks where we're going to be able to do something fun with it.
00:48:22.440
And, uh, but my dad always used to say, don't, don't talk about it until, until it's done. So I've
00:48:27.820
given you just a little bit, but, but it's done in that I was able to, uh, build out my friendship
00:48:33.400
with my friend in such a great way and spend time with them and do this creative thing with them.
00:48:37.200
Oh, that's lovely. Listen, uh, next time that you come to Montreal, I hope that you will think
00:48:42.080
about maybe, uh, contacting me. Maybe we can hang out, go for a coffee. So that would be fantastic.
00:48:48.200
Uh, I, I knew that we would have a great conversation, but you've exceeded my expectations
00:48:52.540
in that you are even more charming than I thought you would be. Thank you so much for coming on the
00:48:56.780
show. Stay on the line so we could say goodbye offline. And you're of course, welcome to come
00:49:00.640
back anytime you'd like. Thank you, Ged. Cheers. Take care.