The Saad Truth with Dr. Saad - Douglas Murray Returns! Author of ＂On Democracies and Death Cults＂ (The Saad Truth with Dr. Saad_824)

00:00:00.000 Hi, everybody. The internet has asked and I have delivered. I have with me today the great,

00:00:06.380 the brilliant, the gorgeous Douglas Murray. How are you doing, sir?

00:00:10.420 Very good to be back with you, Gad. It's been far too long.

00:00:13.520 I know. I was actually checking in preparation of our chat. When was the original inaugural

00:00:18.580 time that you came on? You care to venture? Do you have any idea when it was?

00:00:22.840 I'm worried it might be almost 10 years ago.

00:00:25.080 That's exactly right. It was in 2016. So probably one of the first places I'm going to ask you to

00:00:31.720 start before I just want to introduce you first is have things changed since the last time? And I

00:00:38.360 hate to say yes towards the worst, the worsening of things. But for now, number one bestseller right

00:00:46.320 here on democracies and death cults, and also the author of The War on the West, The Madness of

00:00:52.420 Krauss, The Strangeth of Europe. All right, let's start from the start. October 7th happened. You

00:00:58.200 said, I better put pen to paper. And this beauty came out. Walk us through it.

00:01:04.000 Well, yes, my first instinct was that I thought that several things were going to happen. And I

00:01:09.460 wanted to go and chronicle with my own eyes, my own experience, as much as I could about what had

00:01:16.380 happened on the 7th of October 2023, when 4000 Hamas terrorists basically invaded Israel and

00:01:25.580 slaughtered their way through the communities there, the people, the young people, the dance 1.00

00:01:31.120 party. I wanted I had a sense that I think was borne out afterwards to be accurate, that the world was

00:01:39.760 going to pass over what had happened and go straight on to Israel's reaction to what had happened.

00:01:44.980 And you could see that on the 8th, when the world's headlines were, you know, world awaits

00:01:50.420 Israeli retaliation, you know, before the stories were out before the even any of the details really

00:01:58.100 had come out of this unbelievable atrocity where 1200 people were murdered and another 250 taken

00:02:05.860 hostage. And, you know, I know that some people find it don't like the exercise or can't understand

00:02:13.180 the exercise of extrapolating out by numbers, but that's, that's equivalent by numbers of a

00:02:18.620 population in Israel of 9 million and population in America of 330 40 or so. That's equivalent to

00:02:25.660 about 44,000 Americans being murdered in one day and 10,000 Americans being taken hostage. And,

00:02:33.900 you know, I also wanted to, so I wanted to focus on what happened on the day. I wanted to see Israel's

00:02:42.060 response because I knew, as you knew that, you know, Israel, just like America couldn't cope, couldn't, 0.98

00:02:49.180 wouldn't tolerate, shouldn't tolerate captives being taken, hostages being taken. So Israel can't,

00:02:56.060 I knew it was going to respond. And I wanted to see the response firsthand.

00:03:00.300 But the other thing that the book is about is really this strange thing that's happened,

00:03:05.100 perhaps nowhere more so than in your country, Gad, of Canada, where, you know, cities that seemed

00:03:14.060 civilized until relatively recently, like Toronto or Vancouver, suddenly just get shut down on a regular

00:03:23.340 basis by protesters who side, not with the young people massacred in the early morning at a dance

00:03:31.980 festival, but on the side of the people who went raping and butchering their way through that

00:03:38.300 dance festival. And that really is the sort of the third thing in the book, which is what the hell has

00:03:45.740 happened here in America, in Canada, in Britain, in the West, in Australia. Why have we got so many

00:03:53.500 people in a fight between a democracy and a death cult like Hamas? Why have we got so many people

00:03:57.820 who support the death cult? So that was my real aim. And I'm very, very pleased that the number of

00:04:06.060 readers who already have have absorbed the book and its arguments, it's obviously the greatest thing for

00:04:11.260 any writer is knowing you're being read. Yeah, that's wonderful. What are so maybe I want I'd like

00:04:18.140 to put myself in the shoes of the typical interlocutor who despises Israel, throw those

00:04:26.540 arguments at you and see if this recorded chat can serve as the definitive rebuttal to all of the

00:04:32.780 nonsense. Number one, grossly disproportionate. Sure, they should have retaliated any country

00:04:41.100 would have done so. But what they've gone is so beyond the pale that it is clear that Israel is 0.95

00:04:47.580 now the culprit. They no longer have morality on their side. Yeah, I am. I have an open invitation

00:04:55.020 to the people who claim this, which is send me your battle plan for the destruction of Hamas,

00:05:03.980 the killing or capture of all of the Hamas leadership who perpetrated this atrocity and planned it 0.54

00:05:09.260 and have been misgoverning the Gaza for 18 years. And send me your plan for the rescuing of the 250 0.94

00:05:18.620 hostages. And if you have a plan that works that knows how to extract people from a heavily built up,

00:05:27.820 densely populated urban environment in which Hamas has had 18 years to build tunnels, entrench missile

00:05:35.340 systems in every other house, stockpile weaponry everywhere, and booby trap all these buildings

00:05:44.700 throughout the thing. If you do have a plan for that, send it to me. And I will make sure that it gets

00:05:51.020 to as many important generals as possible. And I'm sure they'll be thrilled if there's another way.

00:05:58.380 But as it is, I don't know of one Israeli soldier who wants to spend another minute longer in Gaza than

00:06:06.620 they already have done. But they're there because Hamas is still holding the hostages. And Hamas has 0.75

00:06:12.940 still got some control of Gaza. All right. I mean, I'm convinced by the argument. But of course, 0.89

00:06:19.820 we will have many commentators in the section that will offer deferring opinions. Point number two.

00:06:27.740 Again, I am the Free Free Palestine representative right now. Douglas Murray conveniently chooses to use

00:06:36.300 October 7th, 2023 as the time as the period where time began or the clock began. But do you not realize

00:06:44.060 that there is nearly 80 years of the systematic genocide and subjugation of the noble, peaceful

00:06:50.700 Palestinian people? Why are you such a bigot that you choose October 7th as your starting point, Douglas?

00:06:57.820 Well, as it happens, I don't. I actually choose January of 1979, when the Ayatollah Khomeini took the flight

00:07:07.980 from Paris to Tehran and then succeeded in the Islamic revolution there, from which moment not only have

00:07:19.180 the people of a great civilization, Persia, been subjugated by these fanatical mullahs, but they've colonized 1.00

00:07:29.420 not just Iran, but Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Lebanon, as you know better than anyone. And so no, I don't. I started

00:07:37.740 in 1979 for that one. As for and of course, the Iranian revolutionary government being the ones who pay 0.92

00:07:44.380 for train and arm Hamas, Hezbollah, and the other terrorist death cults that try to rampage through 0.88

00:07:51.260 the region. So no, I don't start on the in October 2023. I suppose there are people who think and it's a

00:07:59.740 very interesting tendency that has been teased out by some people's reaction since the 7th of October,

00:08:07.180 2023, is that there is a certain type of person who thinks of themselves maybe as a noble and

00:08:12.700 principled person, who seems to believe that if you that something was done wrong at the origin of the

00:08:19.180 state of Israel in 1948, and that because the Arabs rejected another state and rejected coexistence with

00:08:29.740 the Jewish state, that somehow something happened that was wrong at the beginning, and that that can be

00:08:34.540 litigated now in 2025. And I think that's flat out wrong. As my friend and colleague Natasha Hausdorff

00:08:42.220 said some time ago, you know, if a couple are pregnant, usually it's the woman, of course, doing the 1.00

00:08:48.460 hard lifting, and we can say that now. But if if a couple are expecting a baby, the woman is pregnant, they might 0.97

00:08:55.100 have a discussion about whether to bring the pregnancy to full term. This is an ethical and interesting

00:09:02.860 question of its own about abortion, and so on. But once the child is born, let alone when the child is in

00:09:10.380 its 70s, we're no longer talking about abortion, we're talking murder. So the people who think we just have to

00:09:18.780 rectify something that happened in 1948 should know, first of all, that's what they're talking

00:09:25.260 about. And they should be proud of it. They should be proud of the stance they are taking. The second

00:09:31.020 thing is, if they think that the Palestinian people haven't been, the Arabs have not been offered another

00:09:40.300 state again, and again, and again, and rejected it again, and again, and again, seeking to annihilate

00:09:48.620 the Jewish state, rather than creating another state of their own. If they really think that, then 0.81

00:09:54.460 they clearly haven't read any of the books. Well, and I mean, I just I discussed this in one of my books

00:10:00.620 where I say, look, history is really the accounting of, you know, which group of folks took which land

00:10:07.980 from whom I mean, that's, that's all that history is. And so if we were to litigate, go back to

00:10:13.980 whichever time we prefer to go back to, and say, but in 1702, you did this, and I did that, then no

00:10:20.860 one could move forward. And I always exactly, and I always present my own personal history. And let me,

00:10:26.220 let me share, I mean, I think you probably know it, but perhaps not. So of course, I grew up in Lebanon,

00:10:31.100 we had to leave Lebanon under imminent threat of execution, Palestinians stole our home, my parents were 1.00

00:10:37.580 kidnapped and tortured by Fatah. Many things were badly done to all of us. My ancestors, just two

00:10:46.780 generations removed, fled from Syria, because we were Syrian Jews. My brother-in-law's family left from

00:10:54.140 Alexandria, Egypt, because they were Egyptian Jews. My wife's family are Lebanese-Armenian. They also had to

00:11:00.940 leave Lebanon during the Lebanese Civil War, but they also are the product of the Armenian genocide.

00:11:07.900 And yet we've all been able to integrate that within our tragic personal histories, but move on. I don't

00:11:14.460 hold hatred and genocidal desires to exterminate all Palestinians because of the things that were done to

00:11:21.820 me and my parents by Palestinians, but somehow the Palestinian people can't arrive at that. They are 0.95

00:11:30.140 always litigating the past. Is there any hope for us to get them to be as accepting of their history as I was of

00:11:37.180 mine? Not so long as people teach them that the victimhood mentality and the multi-generational refugee

00:11:46.300 mentality is going to lead them to victory sometime. If Hamas ran Gaza for 18 years, they could have 0.96

00:11:55.740 brought up a new generation. Of course, they had no intention to because they're Hamas, but they could 1.00

00:12:01.820 have educated a new generation of Gaza and Palestinians in that time to actually build the state that they'd been

00:12:10.380 given in 2005. They could have created a flourishing society. They could have taught the young to live

00:12:17.980 in peace with their neighbors, and it could all have gone another way. But instead, Hamas were voted 0.84

00:12:24.780 in by the Palestinians in Gaza. Hamas decided to go for war after war with their neighbor, and there's a

00:12:30.620 price for starting war after war and losing. But yeah, it could all have gone differently. It could all have gone

00:12:37.260 differently if Arafat and co. Hadn't have, in the early 1960s, founded the PLO and pretended that

00:12:45.340 all of Israel was occupied. They would have had a state in 1964, in 1967. It couldn't have had any time.

00:12:53.020 Indeed. When you went on your visit prior to writing the book, is there anything, I mean, I presume you

00:13:00.860 came with some a priori, you know, conceptions of what you were going to see. Did anything surprise you,

00:13:07.180 either in the positive or negative sense of that term? Oh yeah, lots of things surprised me. I'd

00:13:13.500 spent plenty of time in the region before, but was there for most of the year after the 7th.

00:13:19.500 Yes, lots of things surprised me. On the positive, I was surprised by, most of all, by the extraordinary

00:13:30.780 resilience of the young Israelis in particular, young men and women who joined back up in reserves,

00:13:37.740 or who were already serving. I was amazed by the courage of young people who are so like their American

00:13:46.700 and British counterparts, with the one exception, that when they were called upon, they fought.

00:13:53.900 And that made a huge impression on me. The negative one that surprised me, I suppose, was

00:14:01.100 that I have been flawed in the last 18 months by the lack of compassion, or even understanding or empathy,

00:14:11.100 that much of the so-called civilized world just has not shown to the victims in Israel.

00:14:19.820 What do you think is driving this, Douglas? I think one thing is the level I just described,

00:14:26.220 this thing that Israelis are uniquely undeserving of sympathy, uniquely undeserving of sympathy, 0.99

00:14:31.900 that of all of the world's victims, somehow you can treat even a one-year-old Israeli baby 0.99

00:14:38.540 is regarded by much of the world in a lesser light than any other one-year-old, as if the baby even

00:14:49.100 has done something wrong by being born in a state which is so defamed by the world.

00:14:56.140 I have examples I give in the book, multiple examples, but one that really stood out to me was

00:15:04.300 having spent a lot of time with survivors of the Nova Party and parents of people who were murdered and

00:15:11.980 and more. When there was a commemoration, memorial of the Nova Party that traveled around a bit of the

00:15:20.540 rest of the world a year after the atrocity, it came among other places to America, it came to LA,

00:15:26.460 it came to New York. And in New York, it was protested by crowds of of activists against Israel,

00:15:35.100 chanting for Intifada and chanting against the Nova Party. There's a father who lost his daughters at the

00:15:44.380 party who had to walk through the street in New York through people celebrating the murder of his daughters.

00:15:53.820 This is a level of sickness that, yes, I think is shocking. If if parents of people killed on 9-11

00:16:06.700 traveled anywhere around the world or parents of the 49 people killed in the Pulse nightclub in Orlando,

00:16:13.340 Florida, or parents of the young women murdered at the Ariana Grande concert in Manchester in 2017,

00:16:19.260 if parents of those people went to a civilized city in the in in in a place like New York and stumbled

00:16:27.420 upon hundreds of people celebrating the murder of their child, we would say and they would say,

00:16:34.860 what the hell has gone wrong with us here? But with Israel, it can be different. That has that has surprised

00:16:44.940 me. I have to say, I the the normalization of of that is has been not unexpected, but still shocking.

00:16:53.340 You know, I would have gone along with what you said in terms of, you know, it's what I would have

00:17:00.460 said that it doesn't surprise me that there's so much Jew hatred, given what I've seen in my life.

00:17:04.860 But I must admit in in unison with what you said that I have been taken aback, not so much by the

00:17:11.260 Islamic based hate, because that one I could have predicted, but I'm astonished at the level of 1.00

00:17:17.020 orgiastic depravity that Westerners have in their Jew hating, you know, quote, logic. And so I'll give 0.98

00:17:24.620 you an example that's near and dear to your heart, because I'm going to refer to the Muslim grooming gangs. 1.00

00:17:30.620 And so this is based on a game that I coined six degrees of Jew, which is I give you any calamity 1.00

00:17:38.620 in the world and you have up to six causal degrees to explain why it is the Jew that did it. But now 0.99

00:17:45.180 you're going to love this one because, again, it speaks to a unique reality that happened in Britain

00:17:49.580 with the with the Asian grooming gangs. By the way, I'm Asian. I'm from Lebanon and I don't remember

00:17:55.500 Lebanese people doing this, but certainly Lebanese.

00:17:57.740 No. And to date, to date, we have no anecdotes even of Japanese males busily raping. 0.61

00:18:06.060 That's right. 0.97

00:18:08.540 Apparently, they're not Asian. But anyways, so I will post online, Douglas, an image with the say,

00:18:17.100 let's say the 20 Huddersfield. So this is one of many grooming gangs. So I'm picking the Huddersfield

00:18:23.180 one because that's the one I used. And let me sort of summarize the name of the 20 guys.

00:18:27.660 Muhammad, Muhammad, Muhammad, Muhammad, Muhammad, Muhammad. Take a break. Muhammad, Muhammad, Muhammad. 0.99

00:18:33.500 And then I post in my usual satirical way. I'm not smart enough. I don't have a big data analytic brain

00:18:39.660 to be able to link all of these into some unifying rubric. Could somebody help me? I will get a tsunami of

00:18:47.500 replies, Douglas. Not satirical. Not facetious. Saying, yes, asshole. It's the Jews. It's Jews. 0.99

00:18:56.220 I say, but how? You mean the Mohammeds are Jews? They said, no. Who led them into Britain? And so there 0.98

00:19:02.780 I created a mathematical equation, Douglas, which might interest you. When three Mohammeds gang rape your 1.00

00:19:10.620 daughter, it's really Mordechai that's to blame. So three Mohammeds equals one Mordechai. So how can 1.00

00:19:17.660 you fight against this level of departure from decency and logic? Do we have any hope, Douglas?

00:19:25.900 Yes, we do, I think. I think your six degrees of separation, I think by now we can probably tighten

00:19:33.340 it and it's about two, maybe one most of the time. I see one degree of separation being pushed by

00:19:41.260 lots of people that I'm rather surprised by, I have to say. The Jews in terms of number, 1.00

00:19:51.900 the minority percentage and visibility in certain fields are almost perfect as a scapegoat 0.99

00:19:59.020 for malcontents whose lives are not going well. And instead of realizing their lives are not going

00:20:07.180 well because of themselves, the Jews are the perfect scapegoat. I mean, Girard and others 1.00

00:20:13.260 completely persuaded me of the scapegoat theory. And the Jews are almost just desperately, unfortunately, 0.86

00:20:24.700 of the size and visibility that means that anyone looking for an explanation for their own failures 0.98

00:20:34.540 will be able to blame the Jews. It's a perennial, I'm afraid, historically. But what's interesting to me 1.00

00:20:40.780 is that we have in our societies in the West, some considerable understanding of Christian antisemitism.

00:20:49.660 And we have some considerable understanding of far-right antisemitism. We've learned something

00:20:56.540 in recent years, the faster learners have learned something about left-wing antisemitism. And we know

00:21:03.020 that it doesn't come wearing jackboots. It comes with a kefir and a COVID-19 mask because the people of 0.96

00:21:11.260 that ilk are simultaneously very hot for Intifada and terrified of the Delta variant. I think we can all agree.

00:21:17.580 But so we've become so knowledgeable about left-wing antisemitism too. I think the one that is almost

00:21:26.380 completely absent from an understanding in the West, and in a way it's like, well, why would

00:21:33.260 most Westerners understand or need to understand it is Islamic antisemitism, which, as I say in the book, 0.51

00:21:39.020 is its own fuel? It's its own fuel. There is a guy called Mehdi Hassan, who used to be in the media in

00:21:49.820 in the UK. Oh, yes, I know who he is. He said something true about 10 years ago that I quote in the book.

00:21:57.500 It was an unusual occasion. So I thought it was worth bookmarking. He described as a Muslim himself,

00:22:06.700 he wrote in the New States that Islamic antisemitism is, quote, routine, rife, and commonplace.

00:22:14.220 And he said every British Muslim reading this will know what I'm talking about. He said every dinner,

00:22:19.020 there'll be somebody who starts talking about the Jews during 9-11 or, you know. And I believe him on 1.00

00:22:24.620 that because that's my experience as well. I don't know any Muslim who doesn't acknowledge that Islam has

00:22:32.380 a massive Jew hatred problem. And that doesn't mean that every Muslim has that. But my word, 0.89

00:22:40.060 it's there in many, many Muslims in much of the Muslim world. And that's, again, because 1.00

00:22:46.460 the Jews are the almost, I mean, not only having rejected Muhammad's teachings very early on, 0.85

00:22:51.980 and not only by having a successful state in a region of states that are falling apart or just run by

00:22:59.740 military junters or royal families and having some oil money and not much else. And not just that,

00:23:08.220 but this central thing that it seems to be intolerable to much of the Muslim world,

00:23:15.100 that the Jewish people should be able to fight to defend themselves and to win.

00:23:23.100 It hurts their self-esteem at their core. And that, as I say in the book, among other things,

00:23:29.340 when it comes to Islamic antisemitism, as with all other types, it tells us nothing about the Jews.

00:23:34.780 It tells us only about the person who suffers from it. Everything that the Muslim world accuses Jews of

00:23:43.500 is what they're guilty of themselves. And if people could realize this is just projection 0.76

00:23:49.020 on a vast scale, it would become much more understandable to a wider number of people.

00:23:55.020 I loved your explanation just a few minutes ago, where you said about sort of the attribution of

00:24:00.460 personal failures, because I have actually developed that exact argument, but using sort of my psychological

00:24:06.460 based knowledge. So let me reframe what you said using some of these psychological principles.

00:24:13.020 So in psychology, we have something called the self-serving bias, whereby you attribute

00:24:19.020 successes internally, right? I did well on the exam because I'm a smart guy and I studied hard.

00:24:24.540 And you attribute failures externally, right? I did poorly on the exam because Professor Saad is an

00:24:29.740 asshole Jew and he's not fair. And I'm Muslim, so that's probably why he gave me a bad grade. 1.00

00:24:34.860 Now, that is already an indelible feature of the human mind, because it's an ego defensive strategy.

00:24:42.380 I want to protect my ego. Good things are because of me, bad things are because of them. And exactly to

00:24:47.900 your point, the Jew, to use Amy Chua's term, the Yale law professor, she talks about market-dominant 0.99

00:24:58.540 minorities. Well, the Jew is the ultimate market-dominant minority, who exactly to your point, 0.91

00:25:04.940 is minuscule in number, but outlandishly supersized in terms of their influence. Well,

00:25:12.300 now you've got the perfect cocktail to blame the Jew for why I cheated on my wife, or my wife cheated 1.00

00:25:19.740 on me, because the Jew is the pornographer. It's probably the Jew who put the, so that's the six 1.00

00:25:25.180 degrees of freedom. Why do I have diabetes? It's not because I'm 400 pounds and I eat all this junk

00:25:31.100 food. It's because the Jews are withholding the diabetes drug so that they can manipulate the stock 1.00

00:25:37.420 prices of the diabetes pharmaceutical industry. So, and by the way, you said that you've seen it.

00:25:42.780 I lived it every day as a guy growing up in Lebanon, and this is Lebanon tolerant, Paris of the Middle East,

00:25:50.700 Lebanon. So I can't even begin to fathom what it's like in Lahore or in Yemen. And so again,

00:25:56.940 let me ask, because I always like to extract some sort of optimism. Can we find a mind vaccine that

00:26:04.300 eradicates Jew hatred from the heart of mankind, let alone Muslim people? 0.89

00:26:09.740 No, I'm rather pessimistic about that, because as I say, it seems to me to be such a human perennial.

00:26:19.340 Can you shoot down certain things? Yes, yes, absolutely. And I think you can warn

00:26:27.260 decent people away from it. And you can alert the cleverer people not to fall into this self-destructive

00:26:35.260 mind virus. You know, the people he mentioned earlier, but you know, the people who think that

00:26:40.860 mass immigration to Europe is, is because of Jews. Like there's, there's, there's a woman I mentioned

00:26:47.100 in The Strange Death of Europe, or Barbara something, I can't remember. It's a totally fringed figure,

00:26:52.220 but she is Jewish. And she is on video somewhere saying that-

00:26:55.980 I know exactly who you're talking about, because they always send it to me.

00:26:58.620 And, but it's like, she didn't run European post-war migration policy. She's just a person

00:27:05.900 who happens to be Jewish, who happens to have an objectionable viewpoint. But the, the pretense that 0.59

00:27:14.860 everybody who was actually in charge, whether it's Tony Blair, John Major, Gordon Brown, David Cameron,

00:27:25.180 Boris Johnson in the UK, or endless number, Angela Merkel in Germany.

00:27:34.380 These are the people who created post-war Europe. I mean, a much longer list, but these are some of

00:27:40.380 the people who created Europe's post-war migration disaster. And you, you struggle to find a Jew among 1.00

00:27:49.020 them. Oh, I got one. I got it. Clearly you're, you haven't mastered your six degrees of Jew 1.00

00:27:55.020 game yet. George Soros is the acolyte of Karl Popper. Yes.

00:28:01.740 And he promoted the notion of the open society. George Soros is the billionaire who serves as the

00:28:10.780 background puppeteer to all of the non-Jewish leaders that you mentioned. Aha, it is the Jewish fault. 1.00

00:28:17.500 Yes. I did actually go into that in Australia's death of Europe. I have a considerable distaste for

00:28:23.340 George Soros's philanthropy. But it's, it's like, it's the lowest resolution type of thinking.

00:28:33.340 And one of the reasons why I don't, and I explained in that book why I, why I came to the conclusions I

00:28:40.780 did after many years of study of what was going on with post-war European migration. But the, the reason

00:28:48.860 why I say that this, this is probably a perennial of the human heart is that it'll, these conspiracy

00:28:55.740 claims will always be available to people lacking in curiosity and intelligence who wish to find

00:29:04.380 someone else to blame for their own failings. And, um, I don't think there's going to be a time when

00:29:10.700 we as a species get cleverer or, uh, more decent or less, uh, malleable by fools. Yeah. 0.98

00:29:19.740 Yeah, no, I hear you. Now you, I think we both have been two of the people who have been most

00:29:25.420 recurringly standing on top of the mountain, screaming and warning people. Do you feel,

00:29:31.660 nevermind when you and I last spoke in the last 15 years that you might've been involved in trying to,

00:29:39.180 you know, warn people about this? Do you feel that people are waking up and hence might engage in some

00:29:47.020 reasonable auto correction? Let's say my, as you mentioned immigration or, and here's where I'm

00:29:53.460 going to share my pessimism. I feel that no amount of evidence that the West sees is ever going to cause

00:30:01.020 them to auto correct. Please tell me I'm wrong, Douglas. I think it's country by country, you know,

00:30:06.460 Gad. I mean, America has a pretty impressive, uh, uh, auto correct system. American politics,

00:30:13.580 as we've seen in recent years has, uh, a much more adept capability to react to public dissatisfaction

00:30:22.300 with things. I mean, you know, the, the Southern border crisis happens in the U S Biden overseas,

00:30:30.300 a, a disastrously lax immigration policy where millions of illegal migrants head into the U S and

00:30:38.780 the U S votes in Donald Trump, who's saying on the campaign trail, this is something I'm going to fix.

00:30:45.740 And already he hasn't, he hasn't got everybody who's illegal out, but he's stopped crossings at

00:30:51.860 the Southern border to like one person or so in the last few weeks. Um, by contrast, some other

00:30:59.500 countries seem to be extremely bad at course correction. The country you're in Canada, it seems

00:31:05.580 that there is a capability or capacity. I hope this isn't the case, but just swap out a leader, uh,

00:31:12.480 of the left and continue to make the same mistakes and not ever concede to it. So who knows? I love

00:31:19.360 Canada. I've got some great Canadian friends. I'm not very positive about that. Pretty negative about 0.66

00:31:24.080 my own country of birth, uh, great Britain, because again, doesn't seem to matter whether

00:31:29.760 you vote conservative or labor, you still get the mass migration. The British public voted for

00:31:34.640 Brexit to lower immigration among other things. And a conservative government oversaw a record number 0.88

00:31:41.360 of net migration figures during their time. And now it's labor and nothing gets better. And they

00:31:47.360 can't even seem to stop boats of illegal migrants like landing every day. Uh, but there are some

00:31:54.240 success stories. Uh, there's one that I have kept an eye on, which is Denmark. Okay. It's only a country

00:32:02.160 of about 5 million people, but they had an early warning to some of the problems of, of bringing

00:32:08.320 extremists into your country, uh, with the cartoon crisis, which I can never quite believe we all had 0.99

00:32:16.720 to go through and still are. Um, and now a left-wing government in Denmark has actually

00:32:23.920 brought illegal, brought migration to a, you know, a sensible level and, uh, left-wing government is

00:32:32.400 actually doing the things that any sensible government would do. So it is some countries

00:32:37.920 can correct. It's just, it will be on a country by country basis. And it'll depend on, of course,

00:32:43.360 whether or not there are decent, good politicians who hold firm and do what's needed and it'll depend

00:32:49.520 or not. And it'll depend on whether publics have the wisdom for vote to vote for politicians who

00:32:56.240 don't just give them, uh, bromides, but actually solve the problems that the country needs to address.

00:33:03.360 Yeah. I, I worry though. So yes, of course the United States is in, is, is in better shape than

00:33:08.880 some of the certainly Western European countries. But as you probably know, Douglas, uh, you know,

00:33:15.280 Islamic leaders have for many, many years said that we are going to conquer the West in three

00:33:20.720 ways. Number one, through the womb of our women. And certainly they're doing that. And it certainly 0.95

00:33:26.720 doesn't help that most Western countries don't even meet the fertility rate of, you know, the 0.79

00:33:31.840 replacement rate of 2.17. Number two, we're going to conquer the West through hijra. Hijra is the Arabic 0.99

00:33:37.440 word for immigration. And number three, perhaps most importantly, we are going to conquer the West by

00:33:44.080 using your miserable freedoms against you. So now even in a place like the United States,

00:33:51.040 Dearborn now exists little issues in Minneapolis exists. So inshallah, wait enough time. Maybe it'll

00:33:59.200 take 500 years for the United States to become mammal. But once the patterns start, they're irreversible

00:34:06.880 unless you create a cataclysmic auto correction. Do you think that anyone has that? I mean,

00:34:12.880 I'm asking you to extrapolate into the future, but do you think some leader will come along that

00:34:17.360 Donald Trump is going to be done in a few years, but who will say Islam and the West are incompatible.

00:34:24.640 No more Islam in this land. 1.00

00:34:28.080 Well, there have already been political leaders who've said pretty much that, and some of them have

00:34:33.680 been very successful at the polls, although he, they couldn't form a coalition to agree on him being

00:34:39.840 the Prime Minister, Geert Wilders, who has said that and much more in the Netherlands, has got the

00:34:44.800 largest number of seats in the Dutch parliament.

00:34:48.560 And I think that it's perfect, it's perfectly possible that people will say that.

00:34:57.680 What are you going to do about it is the big unanswerable follow on question. What are you

00:35:03.280 going to do about it without losing your own sense of self and indeed morality? I mean, I can,

00:35:11.280 I can and have foreseen terrible, uh, responses to this. And it's always been my view that the longer

00:35:19.200 you leave it, the worse in the end it's going to be. But nobody, nobody addresses a problem early

00:35:27.200 in politics, if they can avoid it, they put it off for successors. And I was going to

00:35:32.800 another generation, forgive me for interrupting, uh, to our earlier point about there are some things

00:35:37.840 that are an inerrant part of the architecture of the human mind. I also think that most people are

00:35:44.800 only willing to face a problem when it, I mean, literally bites them in the, in the behind, right?

00:35:51.200 Well, look at the, look at the response of the British government after the Southport killings.

00:35:58.240 This appalling young man

00:36:01.760 stabs three girls under the age of 10 at the Taylor Swift dance party.

00:36:09.520 Turns out to have had Al Qaeda manuals.

00:36:13.520 Um, the, the media runs with, you know, angelic schoolboy from Wales.

00:36:19.040 And, and, and then like, and then the government covers up much of it as far as one can see and

00:36:28.720 doesn't allow information out that they already know. Very angry people come out onto the streets

00:36:34.960 of a very ordinary British city. You know, Southport is not London. It's, it's like, if this can happen

00:36:41.040 in Southport, it can happen anywhere. And the reaction of the authorities is let's get the general public.

00:36:46.880 Amazing. I, I, and I've just seen that, like, you have far too many times in different iterations.

00:36:55.920 And I, every time I just think, oh God, please don't do it. You're going to make it worse.

00:37:01.200 Yeah. I mean, I, I pick up and whenever I've seen, you know, either read something of yours

00:37:06.800 or seeing you on some show, I think we share a similarity in terms of our stupefied indignation,

00:37:15.120 if you'd like. Like we can't believe that people do this, right? And so this, maybe I didn't plan

00:37:22.240 on doing this.

00:37:22.960 Unified indignation. That should be the title of our joint memoir.

00:37:27.040 Exactly. I'm in, sign me up. So this leads me to a segue, which I asked you off air,

00:37:34.320 if we could discuss it, and you were gracious enough to say yes. When you appeared recently on

00:37:39.200 Joe Rogan, I think that came across. I mean, you were not happy and you were not going to have it.

00:37:44.880 And I listened. So I was driving with my family. I was giving a, I was delivering a lecture in,

00:37:50.720 in Ottawa, which is about a two hour drive from Montreal. And my entire family was with me and

00:37:56.320 your, that episode had dropped. So we listened to about the first 45 minutes where, I mean,

00:38:01.040 the main gist of your point is, you know, why do you bring these, these idiots who are 1.00

00:38:05.520 spouting all kinds of nonsense. And so I put out a clip and, and feel free to completely disagree 1.00

00:38:11.920 with me here. Although I, I suspect you, you might not. It was a very, very gentle, uh,

00:38:17.440 critique. I can be quite spicy, but I haven't.

00:38:20.080 Critiqued me or a joke.

00:38:21.920 No, it was a, it was, it was me. So let me summarize what it was. I start off with

00:38:28.400 Douglas Murray's coming on my show. I'm a huge fan of his work. We probably agree on a hundred

00:38:32.480 percent on all points. I couldn't imagine a better ally.

00:38:35.360 I might have chosen a different stylistic choice and how I tackled Joe. I am appearing on his show.

00:38:44.400 I might not want to sort of, although your moral indignation is perfectly justified.

00:38:49.840 Just the stylistic choice is one where you might lose some people that you otherwise want on your

00:38:56.320 side because you made that. That was the entirety of my criticism of Douglas Murray. Otherwise,

00:39:02.480 a hundred percent on board with him. I think I got more hate from Jews because I dared to make that 0.99

00:39:11.120 criticism because their logic was Douglas Murray is a friend of the Jews. Your buddy, Joe Rogan,

00:39:18.240 is inviting all these assholes. You're a fraud, Gadsad. Number one, to, to dare to say something 1.00

00:39:25.440 negative of how Douglas comported himself. And number two, why aren't you publicly disassociating,

00:39:33.440 is disassociating yourself from Joe Rogan because he is the new Himmler? I thought that that was wrong.

00:39:40.320 Am I wrong in thinking that that was wrong, Douglas?

00:39:44.400 There's quite a lot in that, Gadsad. I didn't see your video.

00:39:51.200 Everybody always, I mean, it's like post-match analysis of any kind, like everybody

00:39:56.080 thinks they know how they would kick the winning ball. But in the end, it's you on the pitch and,

00:40:01.760 you know, it's as useful having people online saying, you know, I would have done it like this,

00:40:07.680 as it is, I imagine, for a Premier League footballer to be on the pitch and hearing people

00:40:12.480 from the stall, from the stands shouting, kick it. I was obviously trying to do several things there.

00:40:20.880 I thought that the fact that Joe would only have somebody with my views on if he had the protection of

00:40:27.840 his comic buddy was surprising. I thought that it was surprising, not least because just a week

00:40:37.600 before he'd given this guy, Dave, free reign again on his show. And that's obviously Joe's right,

00:40:47.360 he can have whoever he wants on his show. But it's strange that, you know, he doesn't have to have

00:40:51.440 somebody like that accompanied by a sort of babysitter and that I must have a debate with

00:40:59.920 the sort of two on one debate. I think that's, I thought that was, I mean, I've been in plenty of

00:41:05.040 skewed environments where, you know, the whole thing is tilted deliberately against the position

00:41:10.720 that I take. But, you know, you have to do what you think is right. And I thought that I had to say,

00:41:16.960 I think it was incumbent that somebody did say to Joe, I mean, well, first of all, to debate this

00:41:23.440 comedian who's now appointed himself a Middle East expert. Well, that's its own story, I suppose.

00:41:33.760 But I thought that somebody had to say to Joe that he's doing something different here. He's doing

00:41:43.280 something different. It's not just asking questions at some point, if you're inviting on

00:41:51.120 complete frauds, and hucksters, who are pretending to be knowledgeable about areas, and in fact, are

00:42:01.920 pumping unbelievable sewage into the minds of listeners. And I don't think that's it. Joe can do

00:42:10.880 what he wants, obviously, and will, just as you can or anyone else. But I can't not say that that is

00:42:18.880 what has been going on. Like, just because we have had a period in which gatekeeping has become

00:42:27.040 a problem, and people use it as a problem, does not mean you lift every sluice in the sewers of your 0.99

00:42:33.360 society, and let the shit just flow. And I'm afraid that's what I think is being done when people invite 0.96

00:42:42.720 on completely unfunny comedians to talk about serious things and mislead people, and then say,

00:42:52.720 oh, well, I'm just a comedian. And I think that's exactly what you're doing when you're inviting

00:42:57.360 his pseudo historians on, who then say I'm not a historian, but don't demur when somebody introduces

00:43:04.400 them as a historian, they just say they're not a historian, when they're caught out on not knowing

00:43:09.280 what they're talking about. And I had to say this, Gad, because somebody had to say this.

00:43:17.600 So many people owe their celebrity or whatever to going on Joe Rogan's podcast, or being invited to his

00:43:25.040 comedy stage. But I offered him a critique of what he's doing. And he can either, I suppose,

00:43:37.200 accept what I think was friendly criticism, or he can double down. And I would love it if he accepted

00:43:44.960 the friendly criticism, and actually invited on people who could clean up some of the slurry that

00:43:54.560 some of his previous guests have pumped around. And yeah, I mean, when you do these things,

00:44:02.080 everybody has a view. Do you think so? And again, people are going to accuse me of trying to be too

00:44:07.600 charitable to Joe because he's a friend and so on. But I'm really hypothesizing this with an open

00:44:14.480 spirit. I think that Joe is the type of guy who is very inquisitive, perhaps at times to a fault,

00:44:22.320 when he is being inquisitive about hearing positions by people that are perfectly idiotic 0.99

00:44:28.800 positions, to your point. But it comes from a mindset of, hey, let's talk about whether there 0.99

00:44:35.280 is evidence that Bigfoot exists. Let's talk about whether in New Mexico, they have aliens that have

00:44:41.120 landed. He has that slash curiosity, slash slightly conspiratorial mindset. So could it be that all of

00:44:50.000 these imbeciles that he's invited, you know, Churchill is really the evil guy, not Hitler, 1.00

00:44:56.480 Israel are the evil? Could it simply be coming from that reflex of, you know, I just invite anybody 1.00

00:45:02.400 who's got something interesting to say? Or are you suggesting, and again, I'm open to either positions

00:45:07.600 that you might espouse, or are you suggesting that Joe has a nefarious agenda in inviting these folks?

00:45:14.560 I don't know. I don't like to create windows into people's souls. But I would just say that

00:45:24.000 I think you can tell quite a significant amount from two things. One, if somebody went on Joe's

00:45:32.480 podcast and talked about MMA fighting, and turned out they had never been to a fight,

00:45:39.040 and they had actually got no understanding of the basic rules of MMA, Joe would notice,

00:45:49.120 and would not bring that person on again to talk about MMA. And I suspect his horse shit detector, 0.99

00:45:56.400 which is pretty acute normally, would would ring fairly early, and said person would be called out on 0.99

00:46:03.280 the podcast for not knowing what they're talking about. So if that is the case with MMA, or any other

00:46:11.200 thing that is one of Joe's passions, why not, when it comes to, for instance, the war in Ukraine,

00:46:20.240 or the war in Israel? Why not? Why not say, look, this is, if MMA is complicated,

00:46:29.120 this is a lot more complicated. And maybe to understand this complicated thing,

00:46:35.120 I should at least get a variety of people on, and not just rely on self styled comedians,

00:46:45.120 who are self taught, would be, you know, know alls about something. I think that is very telling.

00:46:56.320 I think that if you have somebody on who believes that Hitler is a bad guy in the 20th century,

00:47:01.600 sorry, that if you have somebody on who believes that Churchill is a bad guy in the 20th century,

00:47:09.120 maybe you should have someone on who knows about Winston Churchill, and believes that on balance,

00:47:16.480 Churchill, good thing. I mean, some of this gets very serious. It's not important what a couple of

00:47:26.080 comedians shit talk about each other about MMA, or probably about any number of other things. 0.98

00:47:34.240 It is when you are vastly misinforming your viewers. And the second thing I would say about that, 0.98

00:47:40.880 if I may, is there seems to be some kind of confusion about what is being what what is what's I mean,

00:47:47.520 I don't absorb this slurry, but I have friends who keep me vaguely informed about bits of it.

00:47:53.120 There seems to be some kind of confusion online about my appeal to credentials or credentialism or

00:48:01.280 expertise. And it's worth clearing that up. Because I said repeatedly during that podcast during that

00:48:09.200 three hours talking with these two or having to debate these two, I said repeatedly, anyone can say

00:48:17.360 whatever they want. I'm not trying to stop anyone speaking good lord, as if I could think I could shut

00:48:25.040 up a bunch of comedians in Austin, Texas. But what I did say was that again, just because experts have

00:48:34.400 got things wrong, many times does not mean that expertise does not exist. And that obviously is very

00:48:41.760 clear where it exists, or it should be relatively clear in, for instance, STEM. We all recognize it

00:48:47.760 exists in medicine. If you, Gad, were being wheeled into the operating theater to have heart surgery and

00:48:54.400 comic Dave Smith pop on doing the surgery today, is that all right with you, Gad? I think you'd say,

00:49:04.240 actually, I'm not sure that you're reading of a few Wikipedia articles. And what you've heard from

00:49:10.080 doctors is going to get us through? Okay, those are those are clear ones. Those ones are clear ones.

00:49:17.600 But when it comes to journalistic standards, I notice that something else is happening.

00:49:24.880 Joe could have acknowledged in the aftermath of that, that a person like me, who has put in the work,

00:49:35.600 who has done the field work, done the ground work, and written a book, which I don't think Joe has

00:49:40.720 yet had the courtesy to read, but which shows in considerable detail, I'd say,

00:49:50.800 what is a first-hand account of a conflict. I think that there should be a basic realization that

00:49:59.200 in journalism, it is a norm to actually go to a place and report. And that is seen as being a good

00:50:08.640 thing. It isn't to be laughed about or derided. And it isn't to be seen as being on the same level

00:50:16.560 as somebody who has taught themselves by reading Wikipedia and anything that confirms their own

00:50:22.720 biases. And I am frankly, when you come to the question of, is this good faith or not, which is

00:50:30.240 effectively what you're asking is, I would say yes, right up until the moment that Joe and any of his

00:50:38.240 friends and circle think that basic standards of journalism, like actually being in the place you're

00:50:48.560 writing about, is to be derided. And amateur hour conspiracy theory junk is to be lauded.

00:50:59.280 That would be the time when it would fall apart. The media has plenty of problems. 0.88

00:51:03.920 It has got plenty of things wrong. But there are basic standards in journalism that you are meant,

00:51:11.120 that people are meant to abide by. And I, at any rate, don't think that they're laughable. I don't think

00:51:16.880 it's ridiculous. And I think that Joe and his circle of friends will reveal a lot about themselves and

00:51:23.440 their intent as on whether or not they find, for instance, a firsthand account of a war like on

00:51:33.760 democracies and death cults to be something they contend with, or whether they pat themselves or their

00:51:41.600 mates on the back, uh, hilariously, uh, for not knowing anything.

00:51:46.880 Well, I hope that you two, I don't know if the bridges have been burned, but your voice is...

00:51:52.160 Not on my end. I, I, I never close the door entirely.

00:51:55.120 And well, that's, that's good to hear. So I was going to ask you, you haven't reached out to him or,

00:51:59.840 or vice versa, not to turn this into a gossip session, but because I, I think that I, I did notice

00:52:05.360 there was a clip that came out, uh, I think a couple of days ago where I think you're referring

00:52:09.920 to it, where I guess he was with a comedian where they're sort of making fun of you didn't go there

00:52:16.080 kind of routine. Uh, that can of course come across as a personal slight, or again, not to be

00:52:22.880 charitable. I know that he spent about 20 minutes with Bill Burr a few years ago, making fun of my

00:52:28.640 name and all kinds of stuff. It could just be good old fashioned comedian ribbing. And the reason why I'm

00:52:33.920 trying to take a charitable, you know, processing of the situation is because I know that Joe does

00:52:40.800 unbelievable stuff and he brings on unbelievable people such as yourself. And to now have that

00:52:46.560 opportunity broken, everybody would lose because we need to have your voice there. By the way,

00:52:51.840 it's for the same reason that I told people, well, I went on Joe's show and defended Israel.

00:52:58.960 Should I disassociate from Joe? How would that benefit the battle of ideas?

00:53:03.760 So I hope that you guys resolve it.

00:53:05.840 I agree. I have, I, uh, have no beef with Joe, but I would like to know that he has actually taken

00:53:14.080 what I write in this book seriously. Like I'm not pissing around. I don't think this is funny.

00:53:21.360 I don't think that the world is a studio in Texas and we just riff endlessly and things don't have much

00:53:31.520 meaning. Um, I don't think it's a game. I don't think it's something to be litigated by

00:53:43.600 comedians, much as I love and have many comedian friends. I don't think they are able to solve

00:53:51.840 many problems in the world. I think they can have a good time, but I don't think that the war I'm

00:53:57.280 describing and have seen close up is about their amusement factor or their tolerance for 0.84

00:54:02.400 bullshit or their desire to, um, uh, spark debate about weird things they haven't really looked into 0.96

00:54:12.720 or just, just, just, just riff. It's like, I don't think the world's as funny as all that. 0.99

00:54:20.400 I don't think it's as, as meaningless and as nihilistic as all that. I think there are things

00:54:26.720 that very much matter. And if they matter, then you put in the work. And if you don't want to put in the

00:54:33.840 work yourself, you would least listen to people who have, and if your job is to host and if your job is

00:54:42.320 to spark debate and so on, then get other voices on and don't have a babysitter. Like have people who

00:54:53.680 know about Hamas and the Islamic revolutionary government and Hezbollah and what they've done

00:55:01.280 and have people talking about the actual war from different perspectives. It's not like there's any

00:55:07.200 lack of, of, of amazing experts and, and, and firsthand accounts or survivors or amazing people

00:55:14.880 who've, or soldiers or anyone else who could correct all of this slurry of misinformation.

00:55:22.080 There are thousands of people. I could point Joe and others to myself who could counter the one-sided

00:55:30.160 rhetoric and who ought to be on and heard young women, young men of every imaginable background

00:55:38.400 and heroic people, actual heroes, not ringside heroes. And, and until such a time as I see that the part of

00:55:50.800 the orbit of the orbit of that actually listening to the variety of voices they ought to listen to and not

00:55:59.040 just occasionally having somebody like me on babysat in a two-on-one, uh, uh, um, contest. Uh, I'm, um,

00:56:09.760 my mind is, uh, not yet made up. Fair enough. Uh, stay on the line. We're going to wrap up with the last

00:56:16.560 question, but I want people to remember to go pick up this beauty right here. It's already at number

00:56:21.760 one, but let's keep it at number one for a longer period. Are there any projects that you're currently

00:56:27.200 working on that you would like to take this opportunity, notwithstanding that you're now

00:56:31.680 promoting this book that we might expect from Douglas Murray to come down the pipeline?

00:56:36.880 You know, very well, that's a state secret. I couldn't possibly, I couldn't possibly let you

00:56:43.760 in on such high, uh, high grade Intel. No, I'm, um, I'm focusing on, on, on this book. This has been a real,

00:56:50.720 um, uh, uh, uh, labor to, to do this book. I, I wrote it, uh, was from notebooks in Israel,

00:57:02.320 in Lebanon, in Gaza, firsthand reporting and accounting and a lot of testimony, um, for me

00:57:10.960 and others. And really, um, as a friend was saying to me yesterday, uh, it's really also a meditation

00:57:20.640 on the nature of evil, because I believe that the nature of the evil that Hamas perpetrated on the 0.95

00:57:27.280 seventh has made me and should make others to think about that. We've lost the theological terms

00:57:35.440 in which we can talk about it perhaps, but it's, uh, yes, in other, in, in other, in other ways,

00:57:43.040 it's also a book about evil. It's not just about war and peace, which is enough, but about good and

00:57:49.600 evil and about heroism and human decency and kindness in the face of unimaginable odds. So

00:57:57.280 it's, it's been, um, it's been my honor to write it and to spend the last 18 months with remarkable

00:58:04.160 people who've inspired it. Well, thank you for writing it and please promise that it won't be

00:58:09.520 another nine years before you return on the show. I will be, by the way, in London, uh, first week of

00:58:16.800 June. I'll be speaking at an event in London and then at another event at University of Buckingham.

00:58:22.320 I hope that we'll have a chance to meet in person for the first time. I'd love that.

00:58:27.280 I saw it to meet you in Canada the other month, but we will find a city to be in together at some

00:58:31.920 point, Gad. I can't wait. Stay on the line so we can say goodbye offline. Thank you so much for

00:58:36.160 coming on and thank you for your courage. Cheers. Thank you.

The Saad Truth with Dr. Saad - April 22, 2025

Douglas Murray Returns! Author of ＂On Democracies and Death Cults＂ (The Saad Truth with Dr. Saad_824)

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