The Saad Truth with Dr. Saad - Dr. Andrew Bostom - The Roots of Islamic Jew-Hatred (The Saad Truth with Dr. Saad_975)

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00:01:05.740 Hi everybody, this is Gad Saad, another fantastic guest today. Dr. Andrew Bostom, how are you doing,

00:01:12.660 sir? Very well, Gad, great to be with you. So for the people who may not know who you are,

00:01:19.500 You sort of have taken a circuitous route to get to where we are today.

00:01:24.520 You were formerly, from 1997 to 2021, a professor of medicine at Brown University.

00:01:32.840 You were an internal medicine specialist, and I'll ask you to eventually talk about it.

00:01:38.160 Then around 2001, 9-11 hit, and suddenly you decided, okay, I want to spend some time understanding Islam.

00:01:45.700 and so you ended up writing

00:01:47.880 many books

00:01:50.040 let me just mention them here before we get to the one

00:01:52.160 that was just released

00:01:53.060 The Legacy of Jihad, Islamic Holy War 0.95

00:01:56.040 and the Fate of Non-Muslims 1.00

00:01:58.160 this was more than 20 years ago

00:02:00.020 The Legacy of Islamic 1.00

00:02:01.860 Antisemitism from Sacred Text to

00:02:04.040 Solemn History, Sharia 1.00

00:02:05.840 Versus Freedom, The Legacy of Islamic 1.00

00:02:08.020 Totalitarianism

00:02:09.240 The Mufti's Islamic Jew 1.00

00:02:12.020 Hatred, Iran's 1.00

00:02:13.920 Final solution for Israel, the legacy of jihad and Shiite Islamic Jew hatred in Iran, very relevant to today's world. 0.70

00:02:21.680 And finally, this guy, boy, I guess you didn't have any word count limits.

00:02:27.440 A modern Quranic kampf struggle, fight, battle against the Jews. 0.92

00:02:35.700 That's a lot of Jew hatred, Andrew.

00:02:38.760 So maybe we can start with your transition from being a physician to becoming an Islamic expert, and then we can drill into these various topics.

00:02:50.740 Yeah, so I grew up in New York.

00:02:56.980 I met my wife there.

00:02:58.640 We actually met about a year before medical school and wound up, thank goodness, getting into the same medical school and got married during a lunch break in the first year of medical school.

00:03:08.760 Uh, and, um, we were very tied to New York, uh, still have family there.

00:03:13.940 And, um, we were in something called the couples match, um, where they try and match you for

00:03:19.060 residency programs by geography so that, you know, one spouse isn't in California and the

00:03:24.980 other, you know, in New York, if possible.

00:03:27.760 And so we, we were able to do that in Rhode Island and we kind of fell in love with the

00:03:32.520 state, uh, moved to a rural area and were here ever since.

00:03:36.400 and um so she was literally pregnant with um our second child uh and a plane crashed into the world

00:03:46.820 trade center she was um she didn't take much time off from work she would take off mornings

00:03:52.280 and uh and then uh she she's trained as a clinical dermatologist but also a pathologist so she would 0.98

00:03:58.540 she kept all her pathology responsibilities she cut down a little bit on her clinical workload

00:04:04.320 So anyway, so she had some time in the morning where she was going to go in and she was walking on the treadmill.

00:04:10.780 I think she's about six months pregnant or something. And a plane hits and she thinks it's an accident.

00:04:16.520 And then she calls me back, whatever it was, an hour later or a half hour later.

00:04:21.140 And the second plane hits. And obviously she was concerned it was not it was not an accident.

00:04:26.280 And when I was, you know, we checked on family. And when I came home from work, I started home at work at night.

00:04:32.720 National Public Radio was on, and I really had very limited understanding of Islam.

00:04:40.000 I'd read some as a child about the Crusades, but even that bit of knowledge, God,

00:04:46.000 I mean, I knew that the Crusades were a response to something.

00:04:48.860 I didn't know about the institution of jihad, etc., which is why that was the first area I wanted to study.

00:04:56.360 But I mean, the the the apologetic was just pouring on thick.

00:05:03.200 And and then, of course, Bush, President Bush at the time made his statement, you know, Islam was a religion of peace.

00:05:09.420 And and and it just it made not only did it not make sense to me, it actually annoyed me.

00:05:16.700 And and then one striking incident, this actually brings me to Al-Azhar.

00:05:22.060 when so al-azar which is really i i know there's this mantra that that islam is so decentralized

00:05:31.180 etc etc but if you were to pick one institution and it's a it's an ancient institution at this

00:05:38.320 point it was founded in the in the 10th century that for certainly for sunnis is is the nearest

00:05:44.260 you're going to get to a vatican equivalent it would be al-azar university and its grand imams 0.99

00:05:49.600 are the closest you'll ever get to a papal equivalent.

00:05:53.040 And so they have, just like the Vatican has these papal nuncios

00:05:56.640 that fan out across the world as kind of emissaries of the Vatican

00:06:00.400 and do teaching and, you know, sort of preacher-in-residence kind of arrangements,

00:06:09.220 Al-Azhar does the same thing.

00:06:10.520 And it just turned out by coincidence that the imam-in-residence for Manhattan

00:06:15.980 at the Islamic Center of Manhattan was from Al-Azhar and was their emissary.

00:06:21.700 And so after the attacks in the immediate aftermath, or in the immediate week after or so,

00:06:27.600 he was very ecumenical sounding, and I didn't pay much attention to it.

00:06:33.240 But then I learned about a month later that he had suddenly abruptly left New York

00:06:38.160 and went back to Egypt and gave an interview on an Al-Azhar-affiliated website,

00:06:42.300 which the Middle East Media Research Institute, Memory, translated right away because it was so inflammatory.

00:06:49.080 And he had a particular animus towards Jewish physicians that they were, I mean, it was so, it was so, it sounded like crack pottery.

00:07:00.120 And he was accusing in the immediate aftermath of the attacks that there were Jewish physicians,

00:07:06.600 obviously speaking about Manhattan, which is where he was, that were poisoning Muslim children in the hospitals.

00:07:13.040 And I would later learn that a lot of the invective, he was invoking these themes, which at the time I wasn't familiar with.

00:07:19.320 But they were Quranic themes, which in this long translation that I just published, Tantawi develops at great length.

00:07:26.700 You know, Jews as corruptors, Jews as schemers against Islam from its infancy, trying to basically abort Islam in the crib, so to speak, on and on and on. 1.00

00:07:44.260 A whole, I mean, there are litanies, there are Quranic litanies of Jews' evil characteristics. 0.99

00:07:49.980 And he was mentioning some of them, although I had no idea what the context was.

00:07:56.420 I didn't know that they were pertaining to specific Quranic verses, et cetera.

00:08:00.960 But I just felt that it was so shocking to me, and then juxtaposed to this apologetic

00:08:07.860 that was pouring out of the media, that I just said, something's wrong here.

00:08:11.940 So I decided, and I really didn't.

00:08:14.180 I would say for the next 10 years, I was no more than a four or five hour a day sleeper.

00:08:19.980 because I had to handle my clinical and research load through my paying job and my interest,

00:08:26.480 and I was just obsessed with trying to find out more about what had happened and how it

00:08:32.360 related to this institution of jihad that I learned about.

00:08:35.820 And then, oh yes, there's the whole Dimi condition, and then I actually...

00:08:43.600 The way I started studying Islamic antisemitism wasn't because of this guy, although it was 0.99

00:08:49.480 kind of in the back of my mind. It wasn't because of the Vatican nuncio to New York

00:08:56.260 at the time of the attacks. I was actually planning, after the legacy of jihad, I spent 0.80

00:09:01.840 a lot of time, and this was history that was literally unknown to me, I mean completely

00:09:07.540 unknown to me, the jihad depredations against the Hindus and Buddhists of the Indian subcontinent.

00:09:14.000 I had no idea about that, and I developed significant sections of the book about it.

00:09:22.540 And I came across something that was astonishing to me.

00:09:26.380 So there was this Muslim jurist, Sir Hindi, and he died in the early 17th century, and

00:09:37.720 His life overlapped with the life of, at least at the beginning, a Muslim reformer, Akbar

00:09:44.220 the Great.

00:09:45.540 And Akbar actually eliminated some of the Sharia restrictions against the Hindus.

00:09:51.480 Now, it's a complex story because the Hindus really were not entitled to this third status,

00:09:57.580 the Dhimmi condition.

00:10:00.000 It was supposed to be convert or die per Koran 9.5.

00:10:03.620 The sort of less severe statute and its Quranic origins, Koran 9.29, did not apply to them because they were not, quote unquote, people of the book.

00:10:17.000 However, in reality, I mean, India has always been one of the world's most populous places.

00:10:23.820 It's just I mean, it's not funny, but it's this this some sort of humor in this.

00:10:29.440 There's a report of one of the first Muslim invaders who goes into this area, which is now a part of Pakistan, Sin province, and he's supposed to be executing this edict, you know, convert or die.

00:10:43.160 And he basically writes back, well, it's not practical. There's too many of them.

00:10:47.460 I mean, it's just so so they were afforded grudgingly dimmy status.

00:10:52.780 And this was a bone of contention for Muslim jurists across the century.

00:10:56.740 Because remember, India was first invaded by jihad in the 8th century.

00:11:02.160 And now we're talking centuries later, these debates are still going on.

00:11:06.220 But in the middle of this anti-Hindu tract from the late 16th, early 17th century by Sir Hindi,

00:11:14.700 and he was a Sufi, by the way, who was supposed to be also very non-violent, etc.

00:11:18.760 um he it was it he makes this comment whenever a jew is killed it is for the benefit of islam 0.82

00:11:26.460 so i did some more digging and could not find i mean there may be some but i could not find

00:11:31.460 any evidence that he ever had contact with a jewish community uh given you know his geographical

00:11:37.900 location in india um and it just struck me god that what is this coming from i i mean you know

00:11:46.060 there's got to be, there's got to be some theological basis for this. And in fact, by that

00:11:51.820 point, I wasn't nearly as naive as I had been. Now we're talking about four or five years after

00:11:57.700 9-11. I was aware of academics, particularly Jewish academics, I must say, God, that basically 0.98

00:12:06.640 argued there was no theological anti-Semitism in Islam. And whatever there might be was entirely

00:12:14.620 borrowed from the West, and in fact, God, it was this logical conundrum some of them 0.83

00:12:22.040 got into where they said, in fact, you really can't define anti-Semitism outside of a Christian

00:12:28.920 context. And all of this, as someone like yourself that's trained in science, I was

00:12:33.880 like, what are you talking about? I mean, you're giving these arbitrary definitions,

00:12:39.200 and then you're opposing them from on high as a doyen of Islamic studies. And I'm like,

00:12:44.620 This sounds ridiculous. And lo and behold, there was a vast corpus of theological anti-Semitism 0.65

00:12:52.900 in Islam. So I mean, if I look at this book, it's obviously incredibly well researched. So if

00:12:59.980 anybody says, you know, you don't have enough references, you don't, you know, you also have

00:13:04.900 a translator who helped you. So all of the usual sort of delegitimization strategies would probably

00:13:12.780 be eliminated. A couple of explanations, a couple of explanations, though, God. The translation

00:13:18.880 itself, and you can appreciate this maybe in terms of your own knowledge of Arabic,

00:13:26.240 the original PhD thesis, which came out, he defended it in 1966, and in that era it wasn't

00:13:32.200 published until 1968, but now I can understand why, because it was immense. It was about 760

00:13:37.580 pages in the original Arabic. So, that book that you just held up is about 870 pages, but 625 pages

00:13:46.460 of it is the translation rendered into English. And yes, I mean, I did write a considerable amount

00:13:51.540 of it, but most of it is simply the translation of this immense work. Fair enough. So, my point

00:13:57.320 is this. You've written several, you know, highly sourced, you know, technical tomes so that no one

00:14:07.160 can certainly argue i mean unless they want to argue well you're not from al-azhar university

00:14:11.220 you don't speak arabic you're not a muslim right which is a lot more difficult to levy those

00:14:17.200 charges against me because arabic is my mother time because i did grow up in the middle east

00:14:21.020 but yes it is true that i don't have a phd in islamic studies from al-azhar university but i

00:14:27.120 can also understand uh pythagoras's theorem even though i'm not from ancient greece and i don't

00:14:34.540 speak, you know, Greek. So that notwithstanding, here's the conundrum that I see both of us

00:14:41.340 facing. I was asked not too long ago, what is the greatest or most surprising phenomenon that I have

00:14:50.380 been witness to in my study of human behavior for well over three decades now? And I had never been

00:14:57.640 asked that question before, so I had to pause. And then I thought, oh, I think I've got an answer.

00:15:02.640 It is the inability to get someone to change their opinion once that position is fully

00:15:09.180 anchored.

00:15:10.200 And it doesn't matter the amount of tsunami of evidence that I provide you.

00:15:13.640 Now, you can understand why I'm going through this, because this book contains a lot of

00:15:19.000 evidence that took you a very long time to put together.

00:15:22.720 All of the other books that I mentioned certainly have a lot of evidence.

00:15:28.380 My having been forced to flee Lebanon is evidence.

00:15:32.640 My wife's family being forced to flee Lebanon is evidence.

00:15:36.500 My grandparents having to flee Syria is evidence.

00:15:40.660 My wife's family having to escape the Armenian genocide at the hands of the Ottoman is evidence.

00:15:47.900 My brother-in-law's family having to escape Alexandria, Egypt is evidence.

00:15:55.080 48,000 plus terror attacks since 9-11 alone by Islam is evidence. 1.00

00:16:00.200 And I could spend the next 35,000 hours giving you more evidence, but guess what?

00:16:08.180 La, la, la, I don't want to hear it.

00:16:10.300 Islam is peace.

00:16:11.540 Every single one of those examples is a miscontrol of Islam, is misrepresented Islam. 0.96

00:16:17.360 They weren't truly Islamic scholars.

00:16:19.580 They were Mossad agents.

00:16:21.400 9-11 was done by Israel. 0.77

00:16:24.180 The grand imam of Al-Azhar University is actually a Mossad mole.

00:16:29.180 and on and on and on. So how could I administer? So let's use language from my work, but that

00:16:36.160 resonates with a physician. How can I get you to benefit from the vaccine, in this case,

00:16:44.600 the mind vaccine of truth, if you won't ever show up to the center to have the mind vaccine

00:16:52.040 administered to you? And if I administer it to you, you'll discount it as Zionist propaganda.

00:16:57.000 So having said all that, do you feel optimistic that all of the brilliant work that you're doing will even move a single millimeter or iota of any of those folks?

00:17:11.600 Not terribly, but I didn't, you know, in a sense, I mean, I guess I did write it, research it for some more open minded Muslims because I do believe they exist.

00:17:25.380 But but honestly, God, I wrote it. I wrote it for I'm Jewish, too. I wrote it. I wrote it for our community because, you know, you you've coined this this term suicidal empathy.

00:17:39.220 And I think when it comes to Islamic anti-Semitism, when it comes to Islam in general, I think our community, across its length and breadth, by and large, is guilty of suicidal apathy or suicidal denial.

00:17:56.620 And again, God, I saw this in the, well now, after 25 years, the absurd contention that

00:18:08.460 there was no theological anti-Semitism in Islam, and it was entirely sui generis after

00:18:16.140 the European colonial period, and using the word virus, a virus that infected these otherwise,

00:18:25.240 frankly, phylo-semitic Muslim societies. 1.00

00:18:29.240 And so, so much of my work has been directed at dispelling what I think of very corrosive myths,

00:18:37.240 particularly when, I mean, God, one of the other things that I find,

00:18:43.240 there's a good medical term, and I use it probably too much, called pathognomonic.

00:18:47.240 It just shows how deep, an example that shows how deep the pathology is.

00:18:53.240 I listen now and I have Google Alerts set up for anti-Semitism and Jew hatred.

00:18:59.740 And so every day things pour, obviously, into my mailbox in this critical moment that we're living.

00:19:06.980 And all the presentations that I see, I can't even think of a single one off the top of my head,

00:19:15.880 which try to orient presentations on anti-Semitism or Jew hatred.

00:19:19.900 The lecturers, the speakers, the interviewees never show these remarkably comprehensive data that the Anti-Defamation League has collected over the last quarter century.

00:19:40.940 Now, I'm not a fan of the ADL. It's unfortunately become basically an instrument of the left, with rare exceptions.

00:19:49.900 It's very politicized, but I will say that over about a 60-year period now, they've honed

00:19:57.600 an instrument which is very simple, and it's been through a few iterations, but basically

00:20:02.960 it's an 11-question instrument, so it's easy to administer.

00:20:08.200 And what it basically does, it presents to the respondent 11 anti-Semitic stereotypes.

00:20:14.020 And then because they wanted the instrument to be, you know, specific, not not not necessarily so sensitive.

00:20:20.540 So they wanted it to to not have false, positive information.

00:20:25.800 You have to you have to agree with at least six out of the majority of these anti-Semitic stereotypes.

00:20:33.780 And then you become an index case of extreme anti-Semitism.

00:20:39.080 And I agree with that definition because, you know, six is quite a lot already.

00:20:42.420 I shouldn't agree with any of them if you're more, you know, more normally inclined.

00:20:48.080 And then they just tally up how common that is in a given population, whether that population is a country.

00:20:53.480 Then sometimes they'll break it down by some of the demographics of the country.

00:20:57.220 Well, the first set of data that I saw actually was as I was working on the initial edition of the legacy of Islamic anti-Semitism.

00:21:06.060 and it was actually it was a secondary analysis of a survey that the ADL had done apparently in

00:21:12.980 Europe in 2004 and it was about 10 European countries mostly Western European countries

00:21:19.800 and there had been a Muslim subsample now you know it was it was the Muslim subsample as I

00:21:28.020 recall was a little small so you could argue that you know maybe the estimates are a little unstable

00:21:34.020 little uh little um there's there's some uh question as as as to as to how valid they they

00:21:41.800 might be but the signal was so strong you know as as someone as an epidemiologist and you're

00:21:47.440 you're used to like oh this is this has a an odds ratio of 1.5 wow the question was the basic

00:21:56.340 question and by the way this is this is very good for the whole anti-zionism issue now which is being

00:22:02.860 pushed to the forefront for good and for bad. The whole question was, did anti-Israel sentiment

00:22:10.140 predict this six out of 11 or greater score on the anti-Semitism? And of course it did. And this 0.56

00:22:17.460 was originally done in, the data originally collected in 2004, and they were being analyzed

00:22:22.620 now on a paper that was published in 2006. But there was hidden in there was an analysis where

00:22:30.800 the Christian population of Europe is the so-called referent group. That's the one that you're 0.82

00:22:37.520 comparing to. And then the experimental group was the Muslims. And in a table tucked away with,

00:22:47.640 you know, not just like a crude sort of prevalence, they actually did what's called

00:22:52.780 a multivariable logistic regression analysis. And they adjusted for all these factors that

00:22:59.100 could distort or in our language would be confound the relationship. The odds ratio

00:23:07.400 blew up to almost eightfold. And I was like, well, why? First of all, I was thinking to myself,

00:23:13.080 why isn't that the main finding in the paper? And then I said, okay, maybe they're worried to

00:23:17.160 have a smaller Muslim population, whatever it was. But it just, I'm in the process of working

00:23:22.240 on the legacy of Islamic anti-Semitism. And I'm like, I've got to start looking into more

00:23:27.560 polling data. And I was kind of rushed to get, I wanted to finish the book and just get done with

00:23:32.300 it. But that seed stuck in my mind. And when I did an updated version in 2020, and now in the

00:23:38.720 introduction to this new, I did an updated version of The Legacy of Islamic Anti-Semitism. And then

00:23:43.200 I did a long introduction to this new book, A Modern Quranic Conf Against the Jews. I got into

00:23:49.680 more polling data in the introductions to both of those books. And God, it's, so one of the things

00:23:57.420 the ADL did, so obviously I'm talking initially about 2006, by 2014, they did a massive study,

00:24:06.040 102 or 103 countries across the world, and applying the same instrument, you know, the

00:24:11.780 prevalence of extreme anti-Semitism, et cetera, et cetera. The 16 most, and it won't be surprising 0.99

00:24:16.980 to you who grew up in Lebanon, but the 16 most anti-Semitic countries in the world by far were

00:24:23.000 all from the Middle East and North Africa. They repeated that survey after, well, they finished

00:24:30.600 it after October 7, 2023. But it was basically a 2024 data. And that came out at the beginning of

00:24:40.280 2025. It looked, if anything, worse. It was now the 19 most anti-Semitic countries in the world,

00:24:49.080 were Muslim countries and beyond the Middle East and North Africa.

00:24:52.820 So that the prevalence of extreme anti-Semitism went from 64% to 97%.

00:24:58.080 And oh, by the way, the second most anti-Semitic country in the world

00:25:02.840 was a country we've been told is non-Arab and has a more tolerant Islam, Indonesia.

00:25:08.800 96% prevalence of extreme anti-Semitism.

00:25:12.920 And then you can peel it back and start looking at

00:25:15.440 does this travel with Muslim diaspora populations

00:25:18.080 and lo and behold, it does.

00:25:20.900 So when you look in Western Europe,

00:25:22.540 which has its own obvious long history of anti-Semitism,

00:25:26.520 Christian, secular, et cetera,

00:25:28.560 again, when you compare Muslims in Europe

00:25:30.520 to Christians in particular or non-Muslims lumped together,

00:25:33.800 it's about a two to fourfold greater rate and prevalence.

00:25:38.360 And now in France, for example,

00:25:39.840 the last data that the ADL,

00:25:41.540 by the way, they scrubbed these data.

00:25:43.580 It's a very interesting story.

00:25:44.660 But the last data from France was up to 62%.

00:25:48.080 And in the United States, God, I won't bore you any more with this, but the last thing is the United States.

00:25:54.680 There was apparently, you wouldn't know this because the ADL never published the results, but a colleague of mine at the University of Indiana got the raw data from the ADL.

00:26:03.060 And he published them in a paper in 2023, Gunther Jekyll, who's now the acting chair of Judaic Studies at Indiana University.

00:26:12.520 um he he published sort of a tuck away in this long paper uh they did they surveyed 3 600 non-muslims

00:26:22.160 in the united states in 2017 um and an oversample of 805 muslims the prevalence again same scale

00:26:29.460 the prevalence of extreme anti-semitism and you know the u.s is a much more philo-semitic country

00:26:34.080 was only six percent amongst the non-muslims but it was 38 amongst the muslims okay so that

00:26:42.500 Notwithstanding that we know that all of the Islamic texts are laden with Jew hatred. 0.98

00:26:47.740 As a matter of fact, Bill Warner, whose work I'm sure you're familiar with, did a content analysis showing that there is more canonical Jew hatred in Islamic texts than, wait for it, wait for it, Mein Kampf. 0.72

00:27:03.640 So the Nazis are less Jew-hating than Islam.

00:27:09.780 Now, sure, we can go to all of your wonderfully sourced books and so on, but again, humans are a storytelling animal, so oftentimes personal narratives end up being a lot more sticky and impactful. 0.90

00:27:23.060 I've often said, and it's worth repeating here, that the Western mind is incapable of understanding what Islamic Jew hatred looks like.

00:27:36.120 Because it is at a, it's not even an epistemological level, it's at an existential level that the average Westerner, even if you grew up in the era of slavery, it would not compare to how the Jew is perceived in Islamic countries.

00:27:54.600 So let's take pluralistic, modern, Paris of the Middle East, Lebanon, where I grew up.

00:28:00.840 Every single calamity imaginable that happens at the individual or collective level is flippantly

00:28:09.380 blamed on the Jew.

00:28:11.040 You got diabetes, who controls the pharmaceutical industry? 0.99

00:28:15.340 It's the Jews. 1.00

00:28:16.360 If they wanted to release the cure, they could do so. 1.00

00:28:20.120 but your wife is needlessly suffering from diabetes because the Jews are too greedy. 1.00

00:28:25.520 Your wife cheated on you. Who created pornography? It's the Jews. They probably infused her with 1.00

00:28:33.000 these libidinal drives when she saw the sexy gardener working in your backyard. So who caused 1.00

00:28:40.060 the sharks to attack the tourists in Sharm el-Sheikh in 2010 in the tourist town in Egypt.

00:28:50.680 Well, it turns out that those sharks were Jewish sharks, Zionist sharks that had been trained by 0.99

00:28:56.600 the Mossad to have sort of a fatal blow on the tourism industry in Egypt. Now, this is not said

00:29:05.040 by some quack. It's said when you get into a taxi, it's said in your favorite telenovela on

00:29:14.700 television, it is said in the news. So the extent, the ubiquity of Jew hatred is astounding. So to 0.98

00:29:24.300 your point about all these different polls, it's not difficult to then see that when Pew, for

00:29:30.000 example, comes out with a survey showing that of the countries that were surveyed about Jew hatred,

00:29:36.380 to your point, 95, 97, 98% of the people polled exhibited profound hatred of the Jew. Now,

00:29:47.800 I love that you used odds ratio, by the way, because I've used exactly that point when I talk

00:29:52.920 about, say, in science, if you publish a paper with an odds ratio of 1.2, that means the

00:29:59.200 experimental intervention was 20% more effective than the placebo. Hooray! But here we're not

00:30:06.960 talking about 1 to 1.2, or as even you said, 1 to 8, which is 800 times. It's even bigger than

00:30:14.320 that, some of the data I've seen. But again, to my earlier point, Andrew, la la la, I don't want

00:30:20.480 to hear your evidence. So as the guy who spent 30 plus years trying to inoculate people against

00:30:29.000 these mind viruses, I hate to say it, I'm not sure if I'm changing enough minds, given how

00:30:36.760 quickly the monster is coming for you. So can we be optimistic? Or are we just two Jewish guys

00:30:44.440 talking while waiting for our eventual demise? Yeah, it's a frightening proposition.

00:30:51.540 I, you know, in first of all, I want to say that that Tantawi abides by some of these kind of I mean, you know, as as the as the grand imam of Al-Azhar University.

00:31:06.960 But he doesn't understand true Islam.

00:31:09.620 Exactly. Of course not. He's only the grand imam of Al-Azhar University.

00:31:12.680 He only memorized the Koran when he was like 10 years old, you know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

00:31:17.140 um uh so um he what what's interesting about the way he structures the book which was and and by

00:31:25.600 the way god i had um translated extracts of of of uh of his phd thesis uh for the for the legacy of

00:31:34.220 islamic antisemitism when it came out back in 2008 um but i always wanted i always felt that

00:31:39.800 it was important to translate the whole work even just because i didn't want to be accused of

00:31:43.860 cherry-picking um but also as as a non-arabic reader when i had the full translation and i

00:31:49.520 spent about a year and a half studying it evaluating it um but by the way the translator

00:31:55.100 atif gobreyal is a coptic christian who was a full-time arabic professor at at uh but he's

00:32:01.360 not muslim so he cannot properly vet islamic doctrine sorry buddy this completely invalidates

00:32:08.880 this sham of a book go ahead but i seriously though i i wanted it because he he it's the

00:32:16.460 same dialect he knew tantawi's dialect it was actually very important and he's you know his

00:32:20.560 respected translator and and teacher but atif distraught wrote to me i guess he had done the

00:32:27.460 introduction in the first two chapters and he said i don't know if i can do any more of this

00:32:31.960 he said it's too venomous i i i don't know and you know we prevailed upon him to please finish

00:32:36.860 it, and he did. It took him about a year. But what Hantali does that's very interesting

00:32:41.440 is that, so it's eight chapters plus a concluding chapter, which of course is, you know, the

00:32:48.000 jihad against Israel, the Jews, etc. But I would say the first six and a half chapters,

00:32:54.780 it's pure Islam. It's mostly a lot of analysis of Quranic commentaries, obviously of the 0.92

00:32:59.420 Quran itself, of the traditions, of some of the biographies of Muhammad. But then that forms this

00:33:08.120 sound foundation for Tantawi to grapple with all these non-Islamic Western conspiracy theories,

00:33:18.040 every crazy one that's ever come down the pike. And all he does, and he's very adamant about this,

00:33:24.980 All they do in the end is validate Islam's understanding of Jewish conspiracism. 0.90

00:33:31.580 There's nothing new, you know, under the Western sun that Islam didn't know already. 1.00

00:33:37.400 And some of them were brand new to me.

00:33:40.060 Did you know that Marcus Aurelius was a Muslim?

00:33:44.760 No, he he slaughtered Christians at the behest of the Jews. 0.99

00:33:49.040 Yes.

00:33:49.380 By the way, Marcus Aurelius, I had to research this. I wasn't familiar with it. Absolutely no evidence that he slaughtered Christians. They began slaughtering Christians after his reign. Decius, I think, was the first one. And, you know, no evidence that the Jews were involved with either of those instances.

00:34:11.160 But there's also, this was kind of, again, sort of comic relief, I guess, as an American. The last, literally the last words in this endless morbid thesis are what's come to be known as the Benjamin Franklin prophecy nonsense, which I believe now probably first emerged in the 1930s, Nazi related, etc.

00:34:36.140 which is the claim that Benjamin Franklin foretold that the Jews were going to, you know, corrupt the United States and leave it in the wrong direction, lead it in the wrong direction.

00:34:47.160 And so Tantawi calls it, first of all, calls him President Benjamin Franklin.

00:34:54.820 And it's at the feast of the Constitution in 1789.

00:34:59.920 So you've got this and it's interesting.

00:35:04.440 There's a couple of paradoxes.

00:35:05.720 he's he's got this great erudition when it comes to islamic studies there's no question about it 1.00

00:35:11.580 he was he was one of the great commentators of the modern era besides this phd thesis he went

00:35:16.300 on to do a full about 10 volume quranic commentary on the entire uh uh quran um but but i mean the

00:35:23.960 the level of amateurishness and and and craziness when it comes to analyzing the others history

00:35:31.680 is just is just is just breathtaking so let's let's do a quick psychological analysis of so

00:35:38.020 we can talk about the canonical roots of jew hatred and as i said there has never been

00:35:44.880 in recorded history anything remotely resembling the orgiastic and existential existential jew 0.99

00:35:52.400 hatred in islamic sources that's about as clear as gravity but i'm going to propose so now two

00:35:59.360 questions. Number point one, do you think that the root of that stems from, so Muhammad is going 1.00

00:36:06.260 around trying to convert everyone to his way of thinking, I am the final prophet, and then you've

00:36:13.160 got these really annoying Jews that go, nah, thank you, we're good. And while others fell in line, 1.00

00:36:19.060 those uppity, obnoxious Jews refuse to heed my call, heed my message, and therefore that then 1.00

00:36:27.980 serves as the eventual animus. Is it as simple as that from your perspective, or is there 0.99

00:36:35.160 something else that explained why there is such canonical Jew hatred in Islam?

00:36:40.740 No, I think, again, God, you have to remember, we're relying for all this material. We're relying

00:36:48.040 entirely on the Muslim sources, certainly for the actual, you know, the life of Muhammad,

00:36:54.040 the earliest origins of Islam, we don't have any other narrative.

00:37:00.940 So we don't know the veracity of virtually any of this.

00:37:05.600 But if we stick to their narrative, the way they tell it in the traditions, in the biographies of Muhammad, in the Quranic commentaries,

00:37:15.560 Yes, that's that's very plausible. And in fact, it was picked up by, you know, by very good Jewish scholars of Islam in the in the in the 19th and early 20th century that Muhammad was basically disappointed and became very, very angry.

00:37:33.140 And then, you know, one thing led to another.

00:37:35.900 I mean, he orchestrated political assassinations and then waged, you know, these proto-jihad campaigns against the Jews of Arabia.

00:37:45.000 And used, you know, he himself used the Quranic epithets. 0.90

00:37:48.160 You know, he used the apes and pigs epithet before he subdued the Banu Quresa.

00:37:53.460 Some argue that, again, some of the literature says he used it again against the Qaibar Jews.

00:37:59.180 So, yeah, I think I think there is this disappointment.

00:38:02.380 But, you know, as a psychologist, I mean, you know, there there is a study of envy, of of of of disappointment.

00:38:13.940 So let me let me let me come in there because that's going to be now my set.

00:38:17.100 So my first explanation is what I just said. 0.73

00:38:19.700 You're not coming around to seeing me as the final messenger and therefore I hate you.

00:38:24.180 Here's a second one that is actually rooted in the architecture of the human mind, and not necessarily in Islamic sources. And it's one that I've been promulgating, you know, recently as sort of the inerrant and ubiquitous form of Jew hatred, irrespective of which theological source it comes from. 0.81

00:38:46.760 So in psychology, there's this principle called the self-serving bias. The self-serving bias is

00:38:54.060 the idea that when people navigate through their lives and they need to attribute or ascribe

00:38:59.560 successes and failures in their lives, they typically ascribe successes internally and

00:39:05.860 failures externally, right? So I did well in Professor Boston's internal medicine exam because

00:39:14.120 I'm smart and I studied hard. And if I do poorly on the exam, well, I did poorly on the exam because

00:39:20.120 Professor Boston is an asshole Jew who doesn't treat people fairly. I'm attributing successes 1.00

00:39:26.720 internally, failures externally. So now you've got these Jews that, to use Amy Chua's term, 1.00

00:39:35.080 she's the professor at Yale who's the mentor to J.D. Vance, she uses the term market-dominant

00:39:41.100 minorities, of which the Jews are the most common example throughout history, very minuscule group 0.98

00:39:48.040 in many different ecosystems, always punching multiple weight classes above their weight, 0.87

00:39:55.060 right? So the Jews might constitute 0.5% in a society, but yet they are the main judges and 1.00

00:40:03.700 the top professors and the top lawyers and the top physicians. Well, if I am in that society,

00:40:10.760 and I'm one of the 99.5% of people, many of whom may not be as successful as those demonic Jews, 1.00

00:40:18.040 then it becomes very easy for me to blame my failures onto them. Why didn't I make it as a

00:40:24.140 Hollywood actor? Well, who controls Hollywood? It's the Jews. If they weren't the gatekeepers 1.00

00:40:30.060 that didn't see my thespian brilliance, then I would have made it and I would have been the next 0.97

00:40:35.140 Avenger leading role, male role figure. And so do you think, keeping aside, of course,

00:40:42.740 Islamic-based Jew hatred is something that you're a specialist in, and it absolutely explained 1.00

00:40:49.080 Islamic-rooted Jew hatred. But it doesn't explain the Jew hatred that we see from countless other 0.75

00:40:56.660 people who don't come from Islamic backgrounds. So what do you think of my self-serving bias

00:41:03.580 and using the Jew as the culprit, both of my individual and collective failings.

00:41:10.240 Oh, I think it's very logical sounding.

00:41:13.100 It's very logical sounding.

00:41:14.660 And, you know, we have in all these societies in the diaspora,

00:41:26.300 part of it, I think, is almost a protective mechanism.

00:41:30.440 Because of the discrimination, there's been a lot of focus and a lack of opportunities that others had in these societies, in European societies, in Muslim societies.

00:41:44.100 We've been a true people of the book.

00:41:46.500 Exactly.

00:41:49.260 Okay, you call us the people of the book?

00:41:51.180 Well, that's basically the only opportunity we have.

00:41:53.680 So, you know, and it's, I think it's had some positive impacts in terms of theoretical sciences, literature, art, etc. But then that too becomes resented.

00:42:10.440 you know it's it's it's it's um do you remember the famous uh exchange i recently actually ended

00:42:20.220 a plenary that i gave in jerusalem actually at a global anti-semitism conference uh in late january

00:42:27.820 and i you can actually go and watch the my lecture uh on my youtube channel uh at the end of the

00:42:35.180 lecture i quoted a exchange with thomas soul i'm assuming you're familiar do you know oh yeah yeah

00:42:42.860 and i watched your lecture okay so you know but i want to hear this i want to hear it again so

00:42:48.140 thomas soul is sitting there i think it was uh with a general i can't remember who was interviewing

00:42:54.540 him but in any case he was asked so you know professor soul what would it take for the jews

00:43:02.460 to no longer be hated, or I'm paraphrasing the sentiment. And he pauses for a second and gives

00:43:08.820 arguably the most pithy one-word answer ever, fail, right? If the Jews were to collectively 1.00

00:43:17.960 fail, then they wouldn't have this bullseye on them. And then if you remember at the end of my

00:43:24.580 talk, well, I said, well, then I guess we are doomed to be always hated because we shall never

00:43:31.300 give in, and we shall always succeed. And so it looks like we are doomed to always be hated,

00:43:37.400 Andrew. What do you think? Yeah, and I think the extension of that would be that, you know,

00:43:45.840 why do we succeed by and large? Because not succeeding itself becomes an existential threat.

00:43:54.240 You know, not succeeding. If Israel didn't take some of its genius and develop defensive mechanisms, anti-missile systems, etc., develop nuclear weapons, let's be honest, as a deterrent, unlike its neighbors, as a deterrent, it wouldn't exist. 0.90

00:44:19.420 do you think that it is possible since you know you've immersed yourself so much in all of the

00:44:26.500 islamic you know original canonical texts do you think there is the possibility of the light of

00:44:33.820 reformation i think i know the answer to this but maybe you've got a better answer so let me give

00:44:41.000 the background to this so as i mean you know this but some of our listeners may not know in islam

00:44:45.140 you've got the concept of abrogation, right? So in an earlier verse, I say, hey, you've got your

00:44:51.100 religion, I've got mine. Look, it's all hippie. Islam is a religion of peace. Later on, right,

00:44:56.000 this is Meccan period, then later Medina, I change my message of proselytizing, it becomes a lot less

00:45:02.900 tolerant, a lot more people then sign up to join the club. And then like any good marketer, I double

00:45:09.600 down on all of the the violence and subjugation and killing and so on and pillaging well then

00:45:16.160 there's a there's a canonical problem how can we reconcile these two contradictory you said

00:45:22.040 a earlier and you said not a later hence through the magic of abrogation the later verse abrogates

00:45:28.640 the earlier verse is there a way for example for us to use the magic wand of abrogation and have

00:45:36.140 some new modern grand imam of al-Azhar University come by and say, I hereby with this wand abrogate

00:45:44.680 all the craziness and it truly will now be moving forward only a spiritual Islam and the 90-95% of 1.00

00:45:53.980 it that is political Islam is hereby abrogated. Is this possible or am I dreaming in technicolor? 0.93

00:46:00.920 It doesn't seem to be possible in our lifetimes. And about abrogation, getting back to the book, Tantawi is very adamant that not acknowledging abrogation, not only as a Quranic directive.

00:46:23.960 There's two Quranic verses, one in the second surah, one in the 16th surah, that lay out the principle of abrogation, and then the jurists elaborate it.

00:46:33.420 Tantawi, one of our sins as Jews, is that we don't acknowledge abrogation.

00:46:39.800 And what he's driving at is not just, you know, Quranic abrogation per se, or the jurists' conception of it,

00:46:46.200 But we don't acknowledge the fact that other than the few Jews, and he acknowledges there's a few Jews, that convert to Islam, our religion has been abrogated.

00:46:58.400 And so that's a tough thing to reverse.

00:47:04.980 I look at it two ways.

00:47:07.060 If there's going to be any hope of a real, really not more of a reform, a renaissance, Islam still hasn't gone through a renaissance in many respects, it's particularly on the issue of Jew hatred or Christianophobia, for that matter. 0.74

00:47:23.800 I think it starts with the populations that are subjected to these hatreds to speak about it.

00:47:30.060 You know, the last envoy before Mr. Kaploon, the professor from Emory, Deborah Lipstadt, was the U.S. anti-Semitism envoy.

00:47:43.660 You know, I was very excited.

00:47:45.120 She went to Cairo.

00:47:46.980 And I was like, oh, my goodness, maybe something is going to happen here.

00:47:50.140 No, what she did is she went to Cairo, almost like a good dinny, and thanked them for restoring some long-abandoned synagogue in Cairo.

00:48:02.780 And I was like, what a squandered opportunity.

00:48:05.480 Why didn't she sit down, even if it was privately, why didn't she sit down with Grand Imam Tayeb, who is a virulent anti-Semite?

00:48:13.640 I mean, he's given anti-Semitic lectures on Egyptian national television twice,

00:48:20.660 riveting on this verse, Koran 582, which basically God says that

00:48:24.420 the Jews harbor the most intent hatred towards the Muslims.

00:48:29.320 It's like a psychological transfer. 0.95

00:48:31.560 And he said that that's defined our relationship for 1,400 years.

00:48:36.220 On national Egyptian television.

00:48:38.020 Why, my goodness, didn't she go and say, you know, you can't do this.

00:48:42.500 You can't do this.

00:48:43.640 You have to stop preaching and teaching this way.

00:48:48.240 Nothing.

00:48:48.820 So part of the reason I wrote this book is to begin that process.

00:48:54.280 You know, we're both very familiar with the Middle East Media Research Institute, Memory.

00:48:59.180 You know, if you had an organization in the United States, because Memory will not do this.

00:49:02.940 I've actually spoken to them.

00:49:03.940 They will show the materials that are being preached, whether it's against Jews, Christians, whomever.

00:49:09.300 and obviously

00:49:11.220 they do it all the time

00:49:13.080 daily, weekly

00:49:14.340 I said, didn't you ever have a

00:49:17.300 collaboration with one of these Jewish

00:49:19.160 defense organizations, the ADL

00:49:21.380 the AJC, etc

00:49:22.700 where, okay, so your job is

00:49:25.260 to expose it, their job is

00:49:27.040 not once every four

00:49:29.180 years, every week

00:49:31.360 come out with a press release

00:49:33.200 that says, this Mosque X

00:49:35.440 preach this, it's

00:49:37.160 virulently anti-Semitic. We're pointing it out. We object to it. Stop doing it. God, something.

00:49:43.460 I don't know what else to say. If they did that every week, maybe it would start to add up.

00:49:48.180 So do you think, so I don't know if you've heard me, have you heard me use the term

00:49:52.260 wood cricket juice? You know what that is. Okay. So that, but again, for the people who don't know,

00:49:59.440 a wood cricket, once it abhors water, once it is parasitized by a particular type of brain

00:50:07.120 worm known as a hair worm the hair worm needs the wood cricket to jump into water commits happily

00:50:13.100 commit suicide in order for it the parasite to complete its reproductive cycle and so when i

00:50:19.020 talk about wood cricket jews it's the jews that you're referring to that are some of the folks

00:50:23.960 who are you know carrying the water for islam so i think and you've used this term uh many times

00:50:31.180 in our chat dimmi right dimmi i mean people say oh second class citizen i think it's it's worse

00:50:36.840 than a second class citizen. It's third class. It's fourth class. It's maybe slightly above a

00:50:41.760 donkey, maybe not, right? It's nejus. You are part of the impure like sperm and urine and defecation 1.00

00:50:49.820 and so on. That's what you are as a dhimmi. We tolerate you until we no longer, we reserve the 1.00

00:50:56.220 right to one day not tolerate you. And God forbid you have a really pretty daughter because if we 1.00

00:51:00.860 come knocking on the door, you're going to have to fork her over and we're going to have to have 1.00

00:51:05.260 convert to Islam. So we were tolerated in Lebanon until we weren't tolerated in Lebanon, and then

00:51:11.040 we had to really run fast. So do you think that when you've got non-Muslims carrying the water 1.00

00:51:17.980 for Islam, it stems from this intergenerational psychology of dimitude? One of the ways that I 1.00

00:51:25.920 can demonstrate to my Muslim overlords that I'm lock and step with them is to actually be 0.97

00:51:32.640 more Islamophilic than the Muslim, more hating of the Jew than the Muslim. And so that's why, 0.92

00:51:39.860 for example, some of my Christian Lebanese friends will oftentimes exhibit hallucinatory

00:51:46.260 Jew hatred, even though it was the IDF that literally defended their family from extermination

00:51:55.300 in some village in Lebanon. But then they'll be the first to come out and say, yeah, but the effing 0.73

00:52:00.440 jews the effing zionists and so on how is that possible so do you think that there is an element 1.00

00:52:06.480 of self-protection stemming from this kind of intergenerational dimitude that causes some of

00:52:13.300 these wood crickets to carry the water for islam oh god what you've described what you live through

00:52:19.900 uh is exactly and and bati or giselle litman was my was my mentor and her husband and and this is

00:52:27.760 this is exactly what she described in terms of the Christian and the Jewish populations of the

00:52:33.500 Middle East. However, what she did, and of course, this created a lot of problems for her, is when

00:52:39.120 she wrote her book, Eurabia, which, by the way, she didn't even invent the term. There actually

00:52:45.340 was a journal called, I don't know if you're aware of this, there was actually a journal called

00:52:48.840 Eurabia, written by a bunch of Arabophile lunatics in the 1970s, in collaboration with some 0.93

00:52:57.380 arabs and some muslims is this like edward saeed types yeah and worse maybe i mean they but uh he 1.00

00:53:04.980 they literally they literally that was their work they they had a journal it lasted for about four

00:53:09.360 or five years in the mid-1970s and and and so so she saw it and that was the basis for writing

00:53:15.280 this book but basically what she said is that is that it was shocking to her as as a as a swiss

00:53:20.740 citizen uh to see that the dynamics that she you know examined as a historian and and lived through

00:53:27.140 at least for part of her life in the Middle East, in terms of the dimmy condition and this

00:53:31.080 civilization of dimmitude that she described, it was taking place in Europe. And these were not

00:53:36.480 Sephardic Jews. These were Ashkenazi Jews, etc. And they were adapting the same behaviors in 0.74

00:53:42.980 response to the pressures, the same kinds of pressures exerted by Muslims and Islam in Europe.

00:53:49.020 And why not? I mean, it seems to be happening in the United States and Canada as well. And this

00:53:56.100 this scimitar of Islamophobia that is wielded so effectively is really, it's stifling honest

00:54:08.800 discussion. But I just think a simple exercise of response to these, I mean, these are outrageous

00:54:16.300 sermons. God, the one that I thought was going to be a watershed, it was last February. So Borough

00:54:24.740 park are you familiar with borough park no borough park outside of israel i believe is the is the

00:54:30.660 largest orthodox hasidic community in the world is this brooklyn in brooklyn yeah a contingent

00:54:39.820 of muslims palestinian supporters but basically muslims literally marched into that neighborhood

00:54:47.040 that iconic neighborhood and by the way a lot of a lot of those jews there are not particularly

00:54:50.620 zionistic at all um but and some are um but they they marched with with with this wireless microphone

00:54:57.940 and they said in in in uh in arabic this the you know sermon that you hear in the middle east 0.97

00:55:04.680 uh about you know allah count the jews and kill them one by one in the middle of it and it had 1.00

00:55:10.980 nothing to do with israel or zionism or anything i was gonna say allah said jews not zionists 0.92

00:55:17.680 correct exactly no but but i but but i was like there's no reaction to this it got a couple of

00:55:27.120 minor headlines i thought the jewish community at last the ajc the adl would be up in arms

00:55:34.580 nothing i think it's because i mean that's the point i mean the whole point of the parasitic

00:55:40.120 mind and then suicidal empathy is that in order for me to completely hijack your capacity to reason

00:55:47.480 to render your prefrontal cortex null and void i need to parasitize both your cognitive system

00:55:55.780 hence the parasitic mind and your emotional system hence suicidal empathy and so you know

00:56:01.820 every day i mean you're you're the physician i should have you like do a a cortisol level test

00:56:08.460 on me per per five minutes or maybe blood pressure every hour because i go on social media and i

00:56:15.740 often in all good faith try to interact sometimes with nobodies sometimes with with the well-known

00:56:21.660 people but anybody who will actually have a good faith conversation and the level of internalized

00:56:29.080 dimitude stemming in part from suicidal empathy and parasitic thinking is astounding so here's

00:56:34.940 a great canard which of course i'd love to get your opinion on this it's islam versus islamism 0.98

00:56:43.580 Islam versus radical Islamism versus militant jihadism versus radicalized or self-radicalized

00:56:53.020 sharia adherent, right? 0.95

00:56:55.100 So it's an endless, and that's why I came up with, and now it's gone viral, where I just

00:56:59.940 do Islamism, but I add many, many ism.

00:57:03.160 Islamismism, ismism, ismism, ismism, right? 1.00

00:57:05.580 So as long as I can add as many possible suffixes with isms on it, that makes it distinct 0.98

00:57:12.700 from the root word islam so it's distinct from it islam is gorgeous and beautiful it's the ugly 1.00

00:57:20.080 variant of it which has nothing to do with islam that's the bad part i even know some folks very 0.92

00:57:27.400 high profile folks that have completely fallen prey to the schenard what are your thoughts on

00:57:33.440 this is there a distinction between islam and islamism and if there isn't can we ever hope 0.97

00:57:39.020 to get people to understand what Erdogan did, understood, which is there's only Islam.

00:57:45.040 Exactly, exactly. I was going to say, and I think whenever Erdogan made that comment,

00:57:50.900 I wrote an essay about it in 2009, you know, Islam or Islamism, Islamic or Islamist, you know,

00:58:01.820 And that, yes, and by the way, as many of those ism tweets that you put out there, I try and retweet.

00:58:11.560 But basically, first of all, you know, historically, God, Islamism was what you said as a synonym for Islam for many years.

00:58:22.760 I mean, scholars, you know, in the 19th century, in the early 20th century, they were studying Judaism.

00:58:29.100 they were studying islamism they were studying they were studying catholicism they were studying

00:58:34.180 islamism they're studying communism exactly i i mean and and uh oh there's an there's a great

00:58:41.240 one for communism but but um um absolutely i i mean so you're the arabic linguist certainly

00:58:47.680 compared to me if you're not a formal linguist um my understanding from all the translators i've

00:58:52.020 worked with over the last 25 years is is that there's no unless there's some neologism there's

00:58:57.140 no Arabic word that differentiates Islam and Islamism. So that's an important linguistic

00:59:04.280 consideration. But I think it's used, and I've heard people tell me this privately,

00:59:12.600 that basically agree with you and I. But if they refer to Islam as opposed to Islamism,

00:59:18.760 or if they say it's Islamic as opposed to being Islamist, that they will be called a greasy Islamophobe and kicked out of polite society or kicked out of the academy.

00:59:33.000 That's the problem, right? Because, look, I know a guy who has dedicated his life to fighting against Islam, and he's very, very well versed. 1.00

00:59:43.980 he comes from that region. And so privately, I wrote to him and I said, what's with this bullshit 1.00

00:59:50.000 man of you doing the Islamism stuff? And he goes, No, I know, I know, Professor. But the thing is, 0.99

00:59:56.000 my lawyer said that it would be imprudent for me. I mean, but you can't fight such an existential

01:00:04.180 battle while always being tepid and, you know, cautious, you either fight it or you don't. So

01:00:12.700 if we can't get the people who are avowed fighters against islam to say the word can we ever hope to 0.81

01:00:21.260 win andrew no no we can't i mean we we they they that's why that's why i've refused to to ever use

01:00:29.660 that word other other than in in some sort of explanation of why it's it's so inadequate and

01:00:36.120 and dangerous actually as as you've as you've just put it but there is an interesting you

01:00:41.160 You brought up communism. I was unaware of this. I thought it was a, so I will say, I read this very good paper by Bernard Lewis from the 19, the great, the Doyen, who, by the way, a lot of problems. Maybe we could talk about that someday.

01:00:57.260 didn't really get the treatment of non-Muslims under Islam.

01:01:01.840 I'll just leave it at that.

01:01:03.280 But at any rate, he wrote a brilliant paper about Islam and communism in 1954

01:01:08.520 when there was this concern about overtures between the communists and Muslim societies

01:01:13.540 and could communism really take hold.

01:01:17.160 And he mentioned that there was a quote-unquote humorist

01:01:21.300 that said, trying to get at the similarities between Islam and communism,

01:01:27.260 And that as if they had basically, you know, modified the Shahada, the profession of faith, there is there is no God and Karl Marx is his prophet.

01:01:36.780 And so Lewis attributed it. And I thought it's kind of funny. Well, it turns out he was wrong. Bernard Lewis was wrong about that.

01:01:46.460 Because I was got curious about which comic, which comic, where did it come from? He was wrong. It was actually very serious.

01:01:53.160 Pre-Bolshevik Revolution, these communist clubs, socialist clubs in Europe, particularly in Germany, I found, and in England, that was their credo.

01:02:06.520 To join the club and become a member, it wasn't a joke.

01:02:10.880 You had to say there is no God and Karl Marx is his prophet.

01:02:15.260 Well, to your point of, in this case, communists using the variant of the Shahada to, you know, to proclaim their commitment to the ideology, a little failed artist with a small mustache, when you ask him who is the, which is the religion that he most respects, it was certainly Islam, which was a masculine, muscular religion in his view.

01:02:42.660 and one of your books is the Mufti.

01:02:45.440 I'm guessing you meant the Mufti in Jerusalem, yes?

01:02:48.980 Hashemine Al-Assad.

01:02:49.720 Hashemine Al-Assad, exactly.

01:02:51.200 Well, when people typically come to me and say,

01:02:53.800 what?

01:02:54.480 There was absolutely no Jew hatred prior to modern 1948,

01:02:59.560 which is just astounding. 0.91

01:03:01.060 Like that statement is more ridiculous than saying 0.72

01:03:04.600 there is no proof that gravity exists. 0.86

01:03:07.580 And usually I'll pull out exactly this Mufti 1.00

01:03:10.800 and say oh yeah let's look at some of his stuff and then suddenly poof they disappear so again

01:03:16.440 i'm going to go back to my earlier point because i i mean on the one hand i want to end our

01:03:20.540 conversation in an optimistic way but what i'm about to say again is going to be pessimistic

01:03:25.680 how can you in light of all of the evidence that folks like you and i and others try to call in

01:03:34.060 order to make the case for our positions. If most people choose to bafflingly ignore it,

01:03:42.120 is it just we are living on borrowed time and eventually we will all become Islamic? Or do you

01:03:49.280 think there will ever be a catalyst that will cause the West in general and the United States

01:03:55.260 in particular to wake up from their suicidal empathetic stupor and start implementing the

01:04:01.460 autocorrective measures please give us some hope doctor i there there are these fits and starts

01:04:09.420 i'll put it this way god so for example when i first got interested in islam um someone that i

01:04:15.300 that i found helpful uh was a he's still around he's still he's still a commentator was a maronite

01:04:20.920 christian uh and his words turned out to be completely true and prophetic he said that

01:04:26.160 after 9-11 he said andy there'll be about a six-month window where we'll be able to speak

01:04:31.000 honestly about islam and then it'll close and and and and so it seems like you know and then

01:04:36.260 and and maybe i don't know the the the the the madrid train bombings a little bit is this bodice

01:04:42.080 yes yes yes go ahead since he's lebanese otherwise i wouldn't have uh breached that

01:04:51.240 confidence yeah but um no while it has turned out to be correct and and you do see you know

01:04:56.680 Maybe after October 7th, there was some more honesty, but it's not enough.

01:05:02.320 And that's why, God, I don't know if it works against the mind virus as an inoculum.

01:05:09.160 But I'm kind of a plotter when I do things very, very, very slowly and plot along with these tomes and everything.

01:05:19.420 I just feel like, again, if you could marry what memory does and what some others do with advocacy organizations, not just Jewish advocacy organizations, because there's a lot of Christianophobic material that's preached in mosques, too.

01:05:34.540 The repetition of coming out with a press release every week or every other week, that would probably be the longest interval you'd have to wait, you would hope that the weight of that evidence would start to open up some minds.

01:05:51.120 If organizations that are known to be, you know, ecumenical, interfaith, whatever it is, would just say, enough, enough, every week you're on our list every week, you know, this mosque in Michigan, this mosque in New York, this mosque in California, this mosque in Florida, anti-Semitic, anti-Christian, every week with a press release, I don't know, maybe that would have some impact.

01:06:17.600 If in their interfaith dialogue, they would say to Ahmed Al-Tayyab, I watched your sermon on national Egyptian television. It was revolting. Why are you doing this?

01:06:28.660 Right. Let me ask you this. Do you think, so I mentioned the possibility of autocorrective steps, the granddaddy of autocorrective steps, and we can discuss whether that's feasible, whether it's just or not.

01:06:44.360 Now, the ultimate autocorrective step would be to argue that any ideology, including one that calls itself a religion, that is antithetical to the foundational principles of, in this case, say, the United States, could not be granted the protection that is afforded under the First Amendment, freedom of religion, and so on.

01:07:06.360 And so you could literally say, we are hereby banning this ideology.

01:07:11.740 It could be any ideology.

01:07:12.760 It could be communism, which is technically not a religion, right?

01:07:17.040 I mean, it's kind of a secular religion.

01:07:19.300 It could be any ideology that is fundamentally, existentially contrary to our foundational

01:07:27.380 principles, so that if it actually became majority, it would eradicate all of the liberties 0.57

01:07:33.100 that it used in order to gain ascendancy.

01:07:36.360 Could you ever foresee, if you played, you know, great chess players can look 20, 30 moves down the chess tree to be able to guess, you know, what's the optimal move to make.

01:07:48.080 If you were to take that trajectory, can you ever see a world where the United States or the rest of the West would do that?

01:07:55.500 Or that's never going to happen. So our best bet is to find a way to reform Islam. Otherwise, we shall all be speaking Arabic, inshallah, soon. 1.00

01:08:08.900 I mean, okay, so you see these, like, these, these inchoate efforts, this anti-Sharia caucus, which is slowly growing. 0.99

01:08:18.020 Pure bullshit. 0.97

01:08:19.100 Yeah, you know, I mean, you know, but, but, but, but that's considered cutting edge, guys. 0.99

01:08:25.360 I know. I know. That's considered. Or we ban the Muslim Brotherhood. But the next day when the Muslim Brotherhood files papers calling it the little girls of Muslim sisters, the Muslim sisterhood, that's perfectly legal. 1.00

01:08:41.120 The trans Muslim sisterhood. Trans Muslim sisters. That's legal. We're just banning the Muslim Brotherhood. Those guys are really mean. 1.00

01:08:48.720 look the only hope i see is is having more conversations like this as at least as a

01:08:55.580 beginning i i so people begin to understand and by the way you know it's depressing to think back

01:09:01.600 on the legacy of communism because a lot of these in the united states certainly a lot of these

01:09:07.160 debates were had in the 1950s um and and the the conservative side but in my estimation

01:09:14.720 the side that saw things realistically lost. They lost. And, you know, we were left with

01:09:23.420 normalizing a lot of seditious ideas and not saying that, you know, the Constitution is not

01:09:35.060 a suicide pact. Apparently, to a certain extent, it is. Yeah, I hear you. Personal question. Do you

01:09:42.040 ever foresee writing a book that is not related to islam is within the fiber of your personhood

01:09:49.580 is there a novel is there a book on internal medicine on epidemiology or is andrew fully

01:09:57.420 locked onto islam forevermore well it's funny you should say that god because covid forced 0.97

01:10:03.460 upon me a hiatus from my work on Islam. And I don't know if I'll ever get back and compile it

01:10:12.400 all together in a book form. But I was so distressed at what I saw as an epidemiologist

01:10:18.460 as the violation of fundamental epidemiologic principles. And I became friendly with people

01:10:24.880 like Jay Bhattacharya, who I was so thrilled to see become the head of the NIH. We actually wrote

01:10:31.780 an amicus brief together um so i i had i had several years away from from from all of this

01:10:38.840 um and it ultimately forced me to retire you know from from from medicine so you don't you don't

01:10:44.360 practice at all as no no no i don't even do i don't even do research occasionally you know

01:10:50.180 people that remember me will ask me questions about some data sets that i have and you know

01:10:55.240 so sort of like an as an emeritus i'll be invited to be on a paper and review it and stuff like that

01:11:00.160 But again, I found the response. I wound up being I wound up being a legal advisor to parents that were suing against mask mandates, to parents that were suing against having completely healthy kids who had one or two or three bouts of COVID.

01:11:17.020 And it was like a cold to them. But yet they were being forced as part of a divorce, which was manipulation to begin with, to one spouse, one of them inoculated almost just to spite the other.

01:11:27.840 You know, so I got involved for several years with that kind of work, and it did move me away. I basically stopped doing my work on Islam for a couple of years, and then October 7th drew me back into it. So that's what happened. Like the mafia, you know. 0.95

01:11:44.720 I was going to say, just like pull you back in. Does your wife and family members support your work? Or do they say, as my wife used to tell me, could you please stop it with this Islam stuff? You have a busy, stressful life. We don't need more stress. Can you keep quiet? And I said, guess what? You married me because of those attributes. So to now ask me to shut up would go contrary to who I am. 1.00

01:12:10.260 So what's the dynamic of that work that you do in terms of the family dynamics?

01:12:16.940 It's it's it's evolved over the years, I'll say for the better, for the better.

01:12:23.460 My wife is incredibly supportive. And what what she's what she enforces, though, because it affects her, too, because she can't you know, she's she's in an academic institution. 0.84

01:12:33.840 She loves her work. She's still very involved in in teaching and she does some clinical research.

01:12:39.940 But she has a huge patient population that she follows. She just she just, you know, and it's a shame. It shows you how the academy is. She can't say anything. She thinks very similarly to the way I think she may not be quite as conservative, but she's extremely supportive, including, you know, financially supportive now since I'm since I'm retired and of my work.

01:13:02.460 My kids are great. Again, they're not going to be outspoken about these issues, but they get it. They support the work. They understand it. They'll come to hear me speak. So, no, I feel blessed in that sense that I am supported.

01:13:20.160 But I also see what we're up against, what they're up against, because they really don't feel, as supportive as they are privately, they do not feel that they can speak about these issues publicly, which is a huge compromise as far as I'm concerned, in a country that's supposed to have free speech.

01:13:39.940 well i'll end it in this way uh i and i i'm going to speak on yeah okay yeah my wife is reminding 0.52

01:13:46.760 me that we have a meeting with my publisher and soon uh so uh one of the reasons why when my wife 1.00

01:13:53.820 would tell me you know can you take it easy and i've said to her but i've also said it publicly

01:13:57.740 that at the end of the night when i put my head on the pillow i'm my harshest critic in that i set

01:14:06.580 the bar of personal conduct very highly. And I need to make sure that I meet it in order for me

01:14:12.180 not to have a bout of insomnia. So if I were to be tepid in speaking out or modulate, or I mean,

01:14:19.780 I mean, you, you're familiar with my work, I'm probably the least modulating guy. I mean,

01:14:25.240 I'm professorial, but I will never refrain from saying a syllable, because then I would feel that

01:14:32.380 I was being fraudulent. And I suspect, and you'll correct me if I'm wrong, that you probably,

01:14:38.060 what compels you is a similar dynamic with yourself, which says, look, even if nobody

01:14:43.220 reads this massive book and is shaped by it, you know, for the better, at least I've done my part

01:14:50.600 and I can go to bed at night feeling good that, you know, I did my part and it's up for others

01:14:57.140 to decide whether they want to jump on board or not. Does that capture well sort of your own

01:15:01.740 internal struggle these issues it absolutely does except except for the part about about the sleep

01:15:07.440 uh oh it's easy for you to sleep i still wake up sleep thinking about these issues even though i

01:15:13.960 feel i've done what i could fair enough fair enough fair enough uh what a pleasure it is to

01:15:19.500 talk to you i wish we could talk some more but now i gotta head off to see how i could promote

01:15:24.420 although it's already receiving global buzz suicidal empathy uh what a pleasure to have you

01:15:29.960 Thank you. It's a big one. I needed to do weights in order to pick this up, but go check it out. If you want sourced material to defend your positions about Islamic-based Jew hatred, check out this book by Andrew and some of his other books, which I look forward to receiving those books. Thank you. Please come back anytime. Stay on the line so we can say goodbye. Take care, Andrew.

The Saad Truth with Dr. Saad - March 17, 2026

Dr. Andrew Bostom - The Roots of Islamic Jew-Hatred (The Saad Truth with Dr. Saad_975)

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