The Saad Truth with Dr. Saad - Dr. Lawrence Krauss Returns! Discussing the Edited Book ＂The War on Science＂ (The Saad Truth with Dr. Saad_855)

00:00:00.000 Hi, everybody. This is Gad Saad. Today, I've got a fantastic repeat guest who only recently came

00:00:05.500 on the show, theoretical physicist and academic celebrity, Lawrence Krauss. How are you doing,

00:00:11.080 sir? That's a fine introduction. It's always good to see you, Gad. You too. So today, we put this

00:00:18.320 together very quickly because tomorrow, the world is excited about the... Yeah, okay, you got it.

00:00:24.880 I don't have my physical copy yet, so I can't do it. The War on Science, edited by Krauss himself,

00:00:31.360 39 renowned scientists and scholars speak out about current threats to free speech, open inquiry,

00:00:36.560 and the scientific process. For people who don't know what an edited book is, you have one person,

00:00:41.660 or possibly more, who are sort of serving as the orchestrator of the whole project, and then a

00:00:47.040 whole bunch of people contribute individual chapters. Take it away. Tell us how this came

00:00:51.860 about, Lawrence, the people that are in it, and so on. Okay, and I should say that one of the

00:00:56.620 extremely, very, very, very distinguished contributors is one person that I'm talking

00:01:01.820 to right now, Gad Saad, and I'm very happy, Gad, that you contributed to the book, and it's a lovely,

00:01:07.200 lovely piece, as not surprising. The way, look, both you and I, and you for a long time, I know,

00:01:14.160 but for you and I, for a long time, have been talking about issues that are in the way of science,

00:01:18.440 and scholarship, and getting in the way of academia, at your own institution, and many

00:01:22.820 institutions, and the question is how to deal with this internal culture war, and as you know,

00:01:29.940 and I'm sure people listening to you know, many faculty are either afraid to speak out because

00:01:36.020 they see what happens, people who speak out, or they try and sort of hang below the radar. I think

00:01:41.360 the bulk of faculty, frankly, are not as woke as appears, but they basically just want to get on

00:01:48.280 with their work, and they just ignore it, and that's part of the problem, of course, because

00:01:53.580 it helps contribute the fact that people aren't seeing an act of backlash is one of the reasons

00:01:58.020 that many of the people trying to interfere with free speech, or exchange scientific integrity for

00:02:06.560 political activism are so active, and I was thinking that it would be useful to do a number of things.

00:02:16.360 First of all, to have a number, a wide variety of distinguished people from within academia speak

00:02:22.440 out, and there were several criteria. One is that they should span many different fields, because this

00:02:27.700 permeates all of academia. Secondly, they should span the political spectrum. They shouldn't be all seen

00:02:34.900 as right-wing or left-wing, and so we have the people that are, you know, canonically thought

00:02:40.020 of as lefties, you know, Steve Pinker and Richard Dawkins, Jordan Peterson and Neil Ferguson, and I

00:02:46.000 don't know where you fall. Some people call you left, some people call you right, I don't know what. It

00:02:49.740 doesn't matter, but, and that's very important, because we don't want to see this as an attack from

00:02:54.540 the right, because of course the right is attacking a lot of the woke left, or an attack from left, and it had

00:03:00.660 to be people from within, because a lot of people are attacking academia from outside, but this is

00:03:06.120 from within, and the fact that these people are willing to speak out publicly, we hoped, would also

00:03:12.100 send a message that it's okay to speak out. If these people can speak out, you can speak out, and, and so

00:03:18.780 hopefully this will have an impact within academia, but also it's important for the public to know what's

00:03:24.820 going on in a real way, with not hyperbole and other things, and so this book is, it's, it's, it's

00:03:30.840 about all aspects of what's going on in many different ways, and fields ranging from, you know,

00:03:35.840 mathematics to, to medicine, to classics even, and also, you know, spanning the spectrum from

00:03:42.400 cancel culture, people who've been canceled as a result of what they say, to attacks on scientific

00:03:48.300 integrity in areas like, as they say, mathematics or physics, which you might say, who cares,

00:03:54.380 to things like medicine, where you, we all care, in a sense that we want, we want doctors to be

00:03:59.920 competent, and we also want our children to be protected from ideology in the face of, of, of, of,

00:04:08.640 of real potential dangers, like in, in, as a number of people in this talk about gender-affirming care

00:04:15.060 for young people, and, and what, what's really disturbing, and you can read in this, is that

00:04:19.820 a lot of organizations like the American Medical Association, the American Association of Pediatric

00:04:25.160 Specialists, or whatever it's called, are advocating care based on references to articles which are not

00:04:33.080 scientific, which don't do what they claim to do, yet, but yet, what often happens nowadays is people

00:04:39.020 quote an article, and other people then quote the people who are quoting the article, and they don't

00:04:43.220 even look at it, and you see these organizations jumping on the bandwagon for care that could damage

00:04:49.220 young people, that could affect their sexuality, and their sexual pleasure for their whole life,

00:04:54.180 much less everything else, and so it's, it's, it's really, for many people, I think they'll be

00:05:01.240 surprised, you know, you talk about, and I've talked about the ridiculous, unfortunately, what's legal in

00:05:07.120 Canada to be able to have advertisements like at your own, and other universities where, you know,

00:05:11.960 people are, where you say, we're looking for the best people as long as they're two-spirit or they 0.91

00:05:15.540 identify as women, and two-spirit itself is a ridiculous word, which doesn't even come from

00:05:20.740 indigenous people, and then, and then other things which are really, you know, the intent,

00:05:25.980 of course, of all of this is, the intent was good to stop inequities, but the implementation

00:05:30.500 is ridiculous, and often further, not only reinforces the equities, inequities, but reinforces

00:05:39.520 notions of even racism. Take, take the note, this ridiculous thing from Jonathan Katzen, his 0.96

00:05:44.600 wife's all the gold, who talked about classics at Princeton. What Princeton decided to do was, 0.82

00:05:52.600 if you do a degree in classics, you no longer have to take Greek or Latin. Now, why would such a

00:06:00.480 ridiculous thing be done? Well, the reason is, is what is obviously a racist reason, that, that, 0.94

00:06:06.520 the idea is that people, certain minority groups, won't be able to handle Latin.

00:06:12.720 You should learn Swahili in classics.

00:06:14.400 Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean, you, you, you, so that it, the claim basically is,

00:06:18.920 these people, these groups are not able to handle intellectual work at the caliber of anyone else,

00:06:23.520 so we have to water it down. What is that, what message is that sending? That's a worse racist

00:06:28.060 message than the people think, people are trying to, to, to attack. So, there's no sense to any of this,

00:06:33.320 and it is really problematic, and, and, and the book, I hope, will, will, will demonstrate a lot

00:06:39.760 of the problems, and the last part of the book are a number of people, like Dorian Abbott, and other

00:06:43.440 people who are recommending a trajectory to get out of this, but from my point of view, I've always felt

00:06:48.720 that the only way this will end, because academic administrators have no backbone, as you know from

00:06:53.860 your own administration and other people, they won't, they'll go wherever the wind is blowing.

00:06:58.140 The only way, ultimately, is for academics and the, and faculty to take back the reins of

00:07:05.000 universities and be willing to make universities what they once were, were places of free and open

00:07:10.940 debate, no ideas are sacred, scholarship more than anything, and merit more than anything, and that's,

00:07:17.540 and that's what you and I have been advocating for a long time.

00:07:20.380 Well, I, I, I want to go back and stress how you started your, your answer, which,

00:07:25.080 the two objectives that you had for the book, in terms of political diversity and field

00:07:30.320 diversity, I think that strategically, that was crucially important, because when I, when

00:07:35.780 I first started standing on top of the mountain, Lawrence, screaming about what was happening

00:07:39.540 in academia, people would write back to me and say, well, Professor Saab, but that's just 0.83

00:07:43.180 in some bullshit, esoteric humanities thing, it's never going to come for us, and then fill 0.86

00:07:47.840 in the blank, in chemistry, in mathematics, in physics, and I would say, no, no, no, it's coming 0.98

00:07:52.500 for everybody, it might come later to you, you'll catch the disease later, but it's going to come

00:07:57.980 for you, because it eradicates all reason, all logic, all common sense, so I think it was spot on

00:08:04.020 for you to, and I've, you've done an amazing job, I mean, you know, you got Amy Wax, the neurologist

00:08:08.800 turned lawyer, you've got Janice Fiamingo, she's from English literature, you've got the heart,

00:08:14.200 you know, the heart sciences, so that's spot on.

00:08:16.620 Do you think that the book, being an edited book,

00:08:21.820 authored by large, all academics,

00:08:24.940 every chapter, do you think that it can still resonate

00:08:28.440 with the public at large, or are you targeting this

00:08:32.500 largely for an academic audience?

00:08:35.120 Well, you know, I'm targeting, I think we're targeting, I'm targeting it for both audiences,

00:08:39.180 as you know, having published books,

00:08:42.400 when I publish a book, I like things, but I have no control over where we're going to go,

00:08:45.920 my hope is, there are enough, I mean, you introduced me as an academic celebrity,

00:08:51.180 and I've written the introduction to the book, but there are a number of other, quote,

00:08:55.080 well-known people, who, my hope will, their names on the book will attract the public,

00:09:00.740 and, you know, Jordan Peterson is a good example, and Dawkins, and other people,

00:09:04.560 and, you know, I could add you or other people, but, you know, and then there are people,

00:09:07.560 or academics, no one will have heard of.

00:09:08.860 But, you know, what I used to, when I ran, at my university, big events, panels on different

00:09:17.220 subjects, I'd often have people who were famous, and other really good people, and what I often

00:09:24.000 found is the audience would say, I came for X, but it was Y that really impressed me,

00:09:29.320 and so my hope is there are some really great articles by people that aren't as well-known

00:09:33.180 among the public, and so my hope is that some of the bigger names will encourage the public

00:09:41.020 to pick up the book, but that academics will see this, and look, and especially people in

00:09:49.660 certain fields will say, these are serious academics, too.

00:09:52.460 They're not just, you know.

00:09:54.080 Like culture warriors.

00:09:55.220 Yeah, not just culture warriors, and, you know, what you said at the beginning resonates,

00:10:00.260 because if you're beginning of my introduction, I think I began by saying when I was at Yale,

00:10:04.460 when I taught at Yale, we used to laugh.

00:10:06.600 We were on Science Hill, and this was in the 80s, and we'd look down the hill at English,

00:10:11.120 which was full of deconstructionism, and we'd laugh, and we'd see that, you know,

00:10:14.880 Alan Sokal, for example, is one of the authors who wrote that famous spoof in 1996,

00:10:20.280 and he was spoofing something we thought, well, this will never happen in science,

00:10:24.120 and then I showed virtually the same words now appear in math journals and physics journals

00:10:30.240 and chemistry journals, and it really is a matter of, you know, that old saying,

00:10:34.820 first they came for the, you know, whoever it was, and then they come for you,

00:10:38.680 and so I'm hoping one of the good things and one of the reasons I'm always happy to talk to you,

00:10:45.360 let me say that first, but is that a number of people like yourself and other people have

00:10:51.120 a voice as well, and I'm hoping if we all get together and speak out around the time of the book

00:10:57.440 that we'll reach enough of an audience, and it takes a thousand points of light.

00:11:03.280 I've discovered that even in physics and every area that different things will resonate with

00:11:09.500 different people, and we have enough different authors here and different ways of presenting

00:11:14.680 and different subjects that I'm hoping it could resonate with a broad audience, but, you know,

00:11:18.820 it's, once it's out of my hands, I'm, I'm, I'm really hoping, you know, it's, it's okay to preach

00:11:25.980 to the converted, but I'm really hoping, and I'm very happy to say, for example, I just found out this

00:11:33.420 morning, and I wrote a piece, of course, I write for the National Post, and said, but I'm very happy

00:11:39.160 the Globe and Mail. Oh, that's a big breakthrough. And they're going to, this Saturday, the Globe and

00:11:45.540 Mail is going to publish a piece by me related to the book. Anyway, so I'm very happy the Globe and

00:11:49.840 Mail is picking it up. I've written, I've written a piece for the New York Times, which I expect will

00:11:56.820 be rejected later today or tomorrow, but, so I, I want to try and reach out, because for better or worse,

00:12:03.340 we're, this book is, is, is about a war that's, for the most part, coming from the left. Yeah.

00:12:09.700 Many of the authors, you're, I did add an adenum, this was written before Donald Trump was elected.

00:12:14.720 Right. And the, and I have to say, the authors have different perspectives on this, which is great,

00:12:18.980 because that's the other thing I did, since I believe in academic freedom. When I chose the people,

00:12:24.360 and it was, that was careful, I said, you write whatever you want. I'm not going to tell you what to

00:12:30.020 write. And, and, and, and so the people, the authors have different perspectives, but it is

00:12:35.280 fair to say, and I've tried to write, and I just wrote a piece in Quillette that, and, and, and that,

00:12:40.940 that there is an external war on science, at least in the United States, that's happening. And, and we

00:12:46.040 don't pretend that that's not existent, but this book was about the internal culture war, which is

00:12:50.580 still going on. And, and it's not, it's not passe, it's not out of date. Sure, Donald Trump and his

00:12:56.660 administration are trying to attack parts of that internal culture war, in a way, which I often

00:13:01.140 disagree with, because I don't think you attack intolerance with intolerance, or you can't say,

00:13:07.500 sure, it's true that a lot of the, the, the diversity, equity, inclusion stuff is postmodernist

00:13:12.380 nonsense, but you can't forbid, but the, the solution isn't to forbid faculty to ever talk about it.

00:13:18.720 Right. 0.98

00:13:19.300 The solution is to allow free and open debate, and the ridiculous ideas will be exposed as ridiculous. 0.93

00:13:25.420 A form of Darwinian selection. 0.87

00:13:28.340 Exactly. And, and science is a dialectic. It requires, when you, when I write a paper,

00:13:35.260 I expect it to be attacked. Okay. If it isn't, then I'm disappointed because, because it means no

00:13:40.560 one's interested. And it's only by having that kind of give and take that the good ideas, you know,

00:13:46.840 rise up. And, and of course, we often say that free speech is important, not for the speech you agree

00:13:53.420 with, for the speech you disagree with, but that's fine. But I think the, the better than that, and

00:13:58.060 more important than that, and I first learned it from my late friend, Christopher Hitchens, but I,

00:14:02.620 I know he learned it from David Hume, is that, is that the real value of free speech, and I hope

00:14:08.940 people, some of the people who read this will get this, is learning that you're wrong, you're wrong.

00:14:14.340 If you hear speech that you disagree with every now and then, if you listen to it, you may find out,

00:14:18.860 hey, it's, I can change my mind. I was actually wrong. So if you cut out everything you disagree

00:14:24.040 with, you'll never learn that you're wrong. And that is, of course, why it's essential for

00:14:28.600 academia. Because when we cut out the things we disagree with, we won't get to the truth. And

00:14:33.320 that's what we're all after if we're in academia. Indeed. Is this your first edited book?

00:14:39.740 It's my first public edited book. As a scientist, I edited a number of scientific

00:14:44.880 years ago. So I'm curious, because I've only, I've done, actually, this book right here, wait,

00:14:51.560 this book right here. Here it is. Okay. That one is Evolutionary Psychology in the Business Sciences,

00:14:57.720 where I was basically trying to demonstrate the utility of the evolutionary lens in anything,

00:15:04.260 whether it be in economic theory, or be in leadership, or organizational behavior. And so I

00:15:09.600 solicited, very much the way you did for your edited book, a bunch of articles from a whole bunch

00:15:14.140 of different people, which, and of course, the process of putting together an edited book,

00:15:17.860 curating an edited book is very different from other things. So what are some unique things? I

00:15:23.900 mean, we're both old dogs at this. Did you learn anything new about the frivolity of academics and

00:15:30.840 meeting deadlines or whatever? Tell us any war stories.

00:15:33.920 I was a chair of a physics department for 15 years. So I've learned a lot. I mean, that was a learning

00:15:39.020 experience about academics in many ways, as, as, as, as, as, um, I was going to say as children,

00:15:45.320 but I shouldn't say that. But, but, um, it's, it is, if it is definitely like herding cats. And,

00:15:51.840 and, and in this case, it was even, I mean, as I say, when my academic volumes were people sort of

00:15:57.020 more, you know, knew what was going on, but of course you get, look, when people don't realize

00:16:01.640 academics are people. Um, what I, what, and, and, um, and I love when, when I, um, it always amuses me

00:16:10.320 that academics were once students and they know all the good excuses for, for being late. And so,

00:16:17.400 you know, the cat ate my homework and, and, and, and, and, but on the whole, um, I, um, I, it, it,

00:16:25.340 it, it required, well, one of the things that's very interesting, of course, is, um, that, that

00:16:34.000 you've probably seen, but I've had to deal with a lot is the way different fields require referencing

00:16:39.400 and footnotes. And, and, you know, because if you have a whole, the same field, everyone does things

00:16:43.740 the same, but lawyers and doctors and physicists and other people do things very differently. And how

00:16:49.500 to balance that was really quite an interesting experience. And, and, um, and some people want to

00:16:54.860 know, what style should the footnotes be in? And personally, I don't care about style, but it's,

00:16:59.280 but in some fields, that's really important. And so dealing with the different academic

00:17:03.840 sensibilities and should this be, you know, an academic article written like a, you know, a law

00:17:09.620 review or, or, and so it was, it was, um, it was, uh, like herding cats, but I, I actually, in the end,

00:17:16.700 I, I was, um, immensely oppressed with the, um, graciousness of almost everyone who agreed to do this.

00:17:24.280 And, and, and because they are all, you know, well-meaning and, and, and a lot of people spend

00:17:30.300 a lot of time and, um, I owe people like yourself and other people a debt of gratitude. Um, I hope

00:17:36.840 we're all doing, I, well, I really felt like we're all doing this for the right reasons and we don't,

00:17:40.920 and I don't know what's going to happen.

00:17:42.200 Well, I think we, I think I will say we're all doing it for the right reasons. Cause it's not as

00:17:46.220 though we're going to make money off this. It's not as though most of us need an extra line on our CV.

00:17:51.400 We're doing it for, for the purest of reasons. I mean, if you might remember, forgive me for

00:17:55.760 reminding the world this, I was writing the article while sitting in Newport beach.

00:18:01.960 Yeah. Yeah.

00:18:02.920 Yeah.

00:18:03.580 Sprouse was able to whisk me away from the beach for about 10 days as I sat at the Starbucks in

00:18:10.720 Newport beach, writing this article.

00:18:12.960 Yeah. And you let me know it.

00:18:15.980 Let me know it. And, uh, absolutely. The fact that you would write it on vacation and other people

00:18:21.340 would, it was, it was, uh, was really, uh, no, I'm very, very excited about this book.

00:18:26.660 Yes, sir. Go on.

00:18:27.480 Yeah. I was just going to say, I mean, uh, how many other contributors have you had chats with

00:18:35.900 to be released in various podcast forms so that we can try to maximize it?

00:18:40.120 Yeah. Well, we, we were able to get 20 done great. And, and for the podcast, and we're going to

00:18:46.200 include this in the podcast as well. Wonderful. Um, we are basically what I've decided to do

00:18:52.020 starting earlier this week, we're going to do released. Now it'll be 21. If we include this

00:18:56.080 be 21 podcasts in 21 days, every single day, we're releasing one. And, uh, and, and I, I will say

00:19:03.060 in that regard that, I mean, well, you know, this, I imagine how much work this would be. And, and I

00:19:11.220 know in all books, it's always five times as much. This was 10. I was surprised at how much work it

00:19:15.940 was because of course everyone also has errors and other things, but, but, but I think we all work

00:19:20.200 together. And, and I think the 21 podcasts, well, I hope also resonate in different ways. And, and,

00:19:27.000 and I'm hoping that different people will, you know, release it to their audience. And in that

00:19:32.980 way we may filter it out. Will you be releasing it on YouTube podcasts and X? Uh, what this, uh,

00:19:40.660 this, no, no, this one or any of the other 20. Well, what we do when, well, traditionally the origins

00:19:46.140 podcast, we release it on a sub stack and release it on YouTube, but we haven't released it directly on

00:19:51.920 X. And it also goes into the standard, the audio version goes into all the standard podcast, uh,

00:19:56.660 the only reason I ask it is because in the recent past, I would say in the last year or two,

00:20:02.500 I've taken to also posting everything directly on X and it gets a huge number of views. So I think

00:20:09.740 you'd be missing out if you don't do that. Yeah, no. In fact, we were looking into doing that.

00:20:14.900 And, and, and I've been discussing with X as well. I think you're right. It, it tends to have,

00:20:19.180 well, there are a few reasons for it. I'll tell you in my opinion. Okay. Maybe, well,

00:20:23.520 the public should hear this as well. Uh, uh, uh, I, um, I tend to think, I don't know all the

00:20:32.040 algorithms. I know Elon Musk and some of you, but, um, I think the algorithms, if you post something

00:20:37.640 that isn't X tends to not reach as modern audience. And I suspect there are algorithmic

00:20:44.420 reasons for that as well in X and, and, you know, their business. So I can understand that's,

00:20:49.600 that supports the idea of directly uploading it on X because, yeah, that's, that's the point.

00:20:55.880 And so, yeah, we'll try, we should, we'll, we will try and, and coordinate that as well,

00:21:00.620 because the idea is to reach as broad a, um, a public as well. And let me just say,

00:21:06.140 yes, sir, people are worried about Gadsad's next vacation. Um, that, you know, if for some reason,

00:21:14.440 unexpectedly, this book becomes a bestseller, then there will, then the, the, the, the pros,

00:21:19.780 the, the proceeds will be split so that Gadsad could take a beautiful, his beautiful wife and

00:21:25.200 wonderful children on a beautiful vacation somewhere nice. From your lips to God's ear,

00:21:30.820 if you believe in God. Your audience, if they should buy the book to know that if it does well,

00:21:36.500 then this poor man who works day and night and even on his vacations to help write a book will one day

00:21:42.200 be able to go on a nice vacation. That is a lovely wish. Uh, last question for you,

00:21:47.260 because I know you've got a whole bunch of things happening. I think you're traveling today.

00:21:50.940 What are some things, so you retired, how many years ago was it from, from university?

00:21:55.840 Uh, uh, it would be 2019. So it's, so it's been about six years. You've still maintained a hectic

00:22:02.840 schedule. Are you happy that in a sense you're out of the ecosystem of academia or do you long for,

00:22:12.200 the past that you're no longer, give us a sense of where Lawrence Krauss is?

00:22:16.060 I miss my students, my graduate students. I think I miss that part. Um, uh, I still,

00:22:21.300 I mean, I still collaborate with his colleagues on physics papers. Um, I am thankful. I feel like I,

00:22:27.320 I thank my lucky saints that I got out of academia when I did for so many reasons,

00:22:32.220 not just because of the nonsense that's going on, but now I see what's happening to my colleagues.

00:22:37.320 There's many distinguished physicists who are losing their grants and have to fire their postdocs.

00:22:41.800 And it's an awful time. Uh, it's, it, there's the attack from outside and inside together.

00:22:47.780 I, I, when I, I had, I also will say, you know, I've spent my whole life as an academic,

00:22:54.440 but because of the other things I've done, I've obviously gotten to go beyond the academic community.

00:22:59.360 And I had a longing to try and do things that outside the safety net of academia, right? I

00:23:05.880 wanted to try it. And so it was something I wanted to do. And, and it, so this is interesting. It's,

00:23:10.280 it's, and I'm glad I'm doing that as well. I like to try different things. So even as an academic,

00:23:14.420 I always moved up institutions about every 10 years or so, because I found that, uh, it's too easy to do,

00:23:21.140 to get comfortable.

00:23:22.160 Well, you're definitely not a stay in your lane professor, which I highly admire. And so kudos to

00:23:28.580 you for having been one of the only ones to do so. Lawrence, you're right. Reply.

00:23:35.180 Well, thank you. It's nice to, it's, it's, uh, it's, it's the truth from you. And, um, and, and, um,

00:23:41.760 yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm wishing we could one day do one of these together because it's, uh, it'd be great.

00:23:47.240 That would be wonderful. Uh, stay on the line so we could say goodbye offline. I'm very excited to

00:23:51.720 upload this hopefully tomorrow with the release of the book. Could you put it up one more time

00:23:56.360 for our audience?

00:23:57.000 It's a book in, in U S and Canada, July 29th, the release of the book. Um, and, uh, you can get it

00:24:03.580 in, in any, uh, any, hopefully way you can get an Amazon. And if your bookstore doesn't carry it,

00:24:08.640 you should tell them to carry it. And then for people in the, in, in the UK and Australia,

00:24:13.400 it's going to be released on September 25th. There is a British publisher that's, that's releasing a,

00:24:19.440 a slightly edited, more edited down abbreviated version of the book, but, but, uh, it's coming

00:24:24.100 out there. Perfect. Thank you so much for your hard work, Lauren. Stay on the line so we could

00:24:27.420 say goodbye offline and you're invited back anytime you'd like. Thanks. Thank you. Cheers. Great.

The Saad Truth with Dr. Saad - July 29, 2025

Dr. Lawrence Krauss Returns! Discussing the Edited Book ＂The War on Science＂ (The Saad Truth with Dr. Saad_855)

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