My Chat with Christopher Rufo, Author of America’s Cultural Revolution (The Saad Truth with Dr. Saad_578)
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Summary
In this episode of The Sad Truth, we talk with Christopher Rufo about his new book, America s Cultural Revolution: How the Radical Left Conquered Everything, and why he believes that CRT should be banned by the Trump administration.
Transcript
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And I am incredibly excited to have the author of the current number one book on Amazon,
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not in a subcategory, not in cultural theory, not in social commentary, across all books.
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I'm doing very well, and I appreciate that clarification.
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I'm always looking when people say number one bestseller and in some obscure category.
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And so I was actually really shocked to wake up and get messages from my publisher and my agent saying,
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hey, you're number one on all of Amazon across all categories.
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So it's just unbelievable to have that kind of distinction.
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This is the beauty right here, which I've yet to read.
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I mean, I quickly went through it in preparation for our chat, but I'm hoping to read it soon.
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Let me just introduce you for those of you who may not know you.
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Senior Fellow at the Manhattan Institute, Contributing Editor at City Journal.
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You are a leading activist in the fight against CRT, critical race theory.
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Your investigative reporting has garnered the attention of President Donald Trump,
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which led to an executive order banning CRT from being promulgated by federal agencies.
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You are a repeat guest on The Sad Truth, having first appeared in October 2021.
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I'll put a link to that first appearance in our show.
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And again, the book, currently number one of all books on Amazon, America's Cultural Revolution,
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Anything else you want to add to the bio before we get going, Christopher?
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Okay, so what I did notice in quickly going over your book is that you have broken up into
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four sections in a sense that capture some of the promulgators of a lot of the nonsense
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Maybe you can just start by telling us who those four people are, what their ideologies are,
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Yeah, so the basic structure of the book is to look at America's cultural revolution in
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The first part is the theory of revolution itself.
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And so I profile the new left philosopher Herbert Marcuse, who really laid down the basic
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ideology for the radical left in the 1960s and early 1970s that continues to this day.
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Marcuse was really a prophet for the modern left.
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He was a deeply trained neo-Marxist philosopher, part of the Frankfurt School, who left Europe
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prior to World War II, came to the United States.
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And having dug into his work, I mean, he's really a brilliant man.
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But his philosophy that he so carefully laid out yielded disaster in his time, yielded disaster
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everywhere it's been tried, and I really think is currently yielding disaster, as you've seen
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in recent years with BLM, with the rioting, with the gender movement, with all of these
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The second section is race, and I profile Herbert Marcuse's most famous student, Angela
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Davis, the famous communist revolutionary, Black Panther Party member, and academic radical
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who was the genesis, in many ways, for the modern BLM movement.
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The BLM activists, of course, cite her by name.
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And all the ideas that you see from BLM really can be easily and directly traced back to Angela
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I profile the Brazilian education theorist, Paulo Freire, and show his really vast and
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remarkable influence over our graduate schools of education, which, of course, influence how
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teachers in K-12 schools approach their students.
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I spend the last quarter of the book digging into the history of CRT, digging into the ideology,
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profiling Derek Bell, the godfather of the CRT movement, and showing that if we follow
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CRT, if we make critical race theory into a system of governance, it's going to lead to really the
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dismemberment of the American Constitution and the replacement of the American Republic with
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a system of DEI bureaucrats who redistribute power, wealth, land, and prestige according to
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the bureaucracy, not according to any individual rights or merits.
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The last gentleman was, he was a Harvard professor.
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So would he have been the guy that, I can't remember if it, is he the one that Barack Obama
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Yeah, there's this famous video that came out in the 2012 presidential campaign, Obama's
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campaign for re-election, that tied him to Derek Bell.
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He actually was a Harvard Law student at the time.
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Derek Bell was engaging in a protest against Harvard Law School, which he denounced as a
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And Obama very famously gives a speech in defense of Derek Bell, praises Derek Bell, gives a nice
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It wasn't the line of attack that Republicans had hoped it would be, because critical race
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It didn't have the immediate resonance or political punch that might have been required.
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But it's a really interesting genealogy, where you have Derek Bell becoming Harvard Law's
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first full-time African-American professor in the late 1960s.
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He has a radical turn, trained some of his students into a discipline that then became
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known as critical race theory, and had an influence even on the future president of the
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And so CRT is not the right-wing fantasy that some on the left had claimed it would be, but
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actually something with a very concrete lineage.
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It conquered the graduate schools of education.
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And then it conquered so many K-12 classrooms around the country.
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Now, in your book, you're making this specific point.
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I mean, there are real nefarious objectives and goals behind these ideologies.
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The frontal attack on Western tradition, Western values.
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And of course, I fully agree with those, and certainly when it comes to Marxism and so on,
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which are completely antithetical to our way of life.
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In my previous book, The Parasitic Mind, I take a slightly more charitable position, not
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to be frivolously charitable, but I argue that many of the idea pathogens, as I call them,
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really start off not necessarily with nefarious goals.
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They start off with a noble goal, which then metamorphosizes into nonsense in the pursuit
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So for example, equity feminisms, most people would agree with men and women should be treated
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But then radical feminists usurp that movement and argue that if we're going to make substantive
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changes in the dynamics between the sexes, we have to argue that men and women are indistinguishable
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There are no biological differences that define male or female.
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So is there any room, in your view, for some of these ideologues actually not being the
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diabolical, nefarious folks that we think they are, but where they're actually coming
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I mean, I think that when you read through the book, and I've had even kind of left-wing
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critics and left-wing people in my orbit who've read the book say, wow, the analysis, the
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biographical sketches, is honest, it's compassionate, it's very human, you understand these folks
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And what I tried to do with the book is really first understand these figures as they understood
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And of course, they understood themselves as fighting for noble goals.
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And then the most self-aware of these figures, realized in some cases, and then became disillusioned
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with the horrible consequences that emerged from these goals.
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And so I think the big story in the book, the driving, really the driving structure of
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all these narratives, is the process of idealism being corrupted and then yielding unintended
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And so, for example, Paolo Freira, he had a noble goal, which was to free third world
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populations from Western imperialism, domination, and exploitation, and to teach the citizens of
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these formerly colonial countries how to read, how to have political consciousness, how
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But what you see over the course of his career is that as he worked with these Marxist-Leninist
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regimes in the third world, in Africa and Latin America in particular, he became a propagandist
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for a new totalitarianism that was in some cases worse than the colonial regimes that preceded
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They were barbaric, they were torturers, they were killers, they engaged in horrific crimes,
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And researchers have found that his theories of literacy going into a country like Guinea-Bissau on
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the west coast of Africa, they made him the leader of their educational efforts, bringing
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literacy to the masses, bringing literacy to the countrysides and the tribal people of the interior.
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But some researchers looked into it, they had access to the archives, and they found that he
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He was just purely disseminating political propaganda.
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It didn't work to teach these poor, deprived people even basic literacy skills.
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And so the story of the book is the story of idealistic people that had an ideology that
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they thought was going to make the world a better place, to transcend the limitations and
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the oppressions of their time, that had catastrophic unintended consequences.
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And I think that process of idealism and disillusionment is at the heart of left-wing ideologies.
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It seems that wherever we look, the people who follow this logical strand, that is very appealing
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There's something inexorable about this process that, as it unfolds over time, yields these conclusions
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that are a dramatic reversal from what they intended.
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Do you think that a lot of the ideas that are promulgated by these four folks, and more
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generally, many of these sort of parasitic ideas, do you think that they are more likely
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to be stickable or impress young people because of this kind of unicornia, utopian vision?
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And then, as we know, many people grow out of that sort of that progressivism bent, right?
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But all other things equal, if I'm 20 years old and I'm at Brown University, yes, I think
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And I think that Marxism is a great way to create equality.
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We'll all hold hands and sing Imagine by John Lennon.
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So do you think that ultimately many of those ideas that might be intoxicating to me when I'm
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Oh, so you started off with a progressive bent?
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Yeah, I started off with a very kind of hard left bent.
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And when I was in my teenage years and even into college and then kind of life experience,
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my own study, my own experience, my own travel especially dissuaded me from that philosophical
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system, because I found that it wasn't compatible with the reality as I really understood it.
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But the question that you have is a really good one.
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And I think that, you know, as now as a conservative, I have to concede to my friends and opponents
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on the left that their system of ideas has really mastered the strategies for tapping into
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human emotions, human motivation, human inspiration.
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They do it on a negative pole because they they are really just masterful at manipulating the
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feelings of guilt, envy, resentment, hatred, very powerful, dark emotions that guide so much
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They have a great ability to cast the villain in the story quite persuasively.
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And then on the positive side, someone like Marcuse or a Paolo Frera, they propose these
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really inspirational, beautiful, utopian concepts.
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You will find freedom in your life beyond necessity.
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Um, you will have, uh, even, um, unrestrained sexuality.
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Uh, Marcuse was famous for, um, we don't need the superego anymore.
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Uh, we can have a flowering and totally free sexuality.
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Um, and so, you know, when you're 20, that sounds great.
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You have, you know, you don't need to get a job.
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Um, and, and, and you can have an kind of utterly free, um, sexual experience, um, uh, at that
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And, and by the way, you're morally superior to all these other bad people out there that
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Um, and so look, I mean, that is a very attractive, um, narrative for people, especially younger
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Um, but then you, you, you have to then say, all right, great.
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And I found that in my own life experience as, as, as a, as a human being in my own study
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as an intellect, you know, looking at, at, at a wider range of, of reading and materials
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And then in my own observation, the, the actual direct observation of the world of my external
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world reality, um, having traveled to many countries in my twenties during my time as a
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documentary filmmaker, I, I mean, I concluded this was like, there's absolutely no way that
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these, that this set of ideas, the set of ideas, you know, of course, in the book, the
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set of ideas more broadly, um, has any chance of conforming with reality in a way that actually
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leads to true human happiness or human flourishing.
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One of the things that's remarkable in your life.
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And in a sense, I could easily link it to, I have a forthcoming book next week, forgive
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I have a book on happiness, uh, and part of the, the joy of life are the serendipitous
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unexpected moments that happen to us that fall on our lap.
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And I think, and you'll correct me if I'm wrong.
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I think one of the things that's quite remarkable in your career, I mean, you didn't set out
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necessarily to be at the place that you are today.
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You were interested in, in, in, in immersing yourself in ideas, but the CRT stuff that came
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Where people would send you what's happening with them.
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So maybe could you trace for us, you know, how you went from wherever you were three, four
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years ago to today, having the number one, uh, book across all of Amazon, how did that
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And does it really speak to the magic of serendipity?
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I mean, it does serendipity is, is everything, you know, I think in my younger, uh, days in
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my twenties, I was, you know, hyper-focused, hyper-driven, you know, hyper-success oriented
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I made these, you know, these looking back kind of ridiculous plans of this is what I'm
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And, um, I, I found that that way of thinking and living was so, it put so much pressure on
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It squashes your own receptivity to the world, to chance, to friendships, to experiences.
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And, um, and as I learned to give that up and be open to, uh, more experiences, something
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Um, all of these amazing opportunities happened that I think I was ready to, to, and curious
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And so moving from the left to the right was based on serendipity moving from to a career
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in the documentary film world was based on a chance encounter I had in a grocery store
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when I was getting ready to graduate from college, getting into politics was in some
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And then CRT, which really launched me on the trajectory I had today came from an anonymous
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I followed up on, I reported on, and it led to this really incredible sequence of events
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I then called on president Trump to issue an executive order to abolish CRT.
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The next morning I actually get a call from the white house saying that, Hey, the president
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was watching, uh, Tucker last night, he saw you and he agrees.
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Can you come, uh, you know, uh, rally with our team, uh, you know, on zoom, it was during
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the pandemic and, and, and help us craft this order.
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And then that led to a book deal with Harper Collins.
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And now we find it on the number one bestseller as it comes out today.
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Um, you know, and, and all of this is, um, I like to think through my own efforts, through
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my own talents, through my own, uh, uh, my own, you know, uh, capacities.
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And I think there is that you have to work hard.
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You have to really, um, pursue, uh, these, these, these opportunities, but a lot of it
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and really the genius of our system and the United States of having, you know, free enterprise,
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having, uh, individual, uh, rights, having a free press, having free association, you
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know, with, with some limits, unfortunately, um, it allows for that serendipity to happen
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as opposed to a planned society, a communist society, a dreary society.
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And I think that paradoxically, the, the people who, you know, you know, Herbert Marcuse was
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He actually used that exact word over and over in his work, but his philosophy leads to
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Um, that is, that is, um, uh, antithetical to the spontaneity that we need in life.
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And so the liberal system, and there are anti-liberals on the left and the right, but the liberal
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system at its best, um, allows for that spontaneous reaction of ideas and forces and, and material,
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um, that, that, that creates so much of our happiness that is, um, cannot be described
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in, in, in rational terms and it cannot be planned through rational means.
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Well, one of the things that I talk about in my forthcoming book, when I'm discussing the,
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what I consider to be the most, the two most important decisions that, uh, can either impart
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great misery on an individual or great happiness is the following two choices, choosing the right
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Now, when it comes to choosing the right profession, I argue that all other things equal the professions
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that are most likely to impart the greatest amount of purpose and meaning are ones that allow
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you to instantiate yourself within the creative impulse.
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Now, the creative impulse could be, I'm a chef, therefore I create new dishes that before
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I put my hands on them did not exist on that plate.
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I create, you know, all kinds of monuments, bridges, buildings.
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I can create as a professor in my scientific work.
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So do you feel that a lot of the serendipitous, uh, moments that have allowed you to have the
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trajectory that has led you to where you are today stems specifically in your case, also
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from being someone who has to constantly be immersed within the creative impulse?
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For me, there's, there's a bit of a wrinkle to the story.
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I mean, first of all, I think that the choice of a spouse and a family is, is number one.
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I think that's the most important decision related to happiness.
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And, uh, I'm very fortunate to have an incredible spouse and, and three incredible kids.
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And, you know, even when things are tough or stressful at work, you know, you go home
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and you reconnect with your family or spend the weekend together.
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But actually in my career as a filmmaker, I was very unhappy for many years.
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I felt like, um, uh, the, the medium was not quite right.
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And I'm still not even really sure how to describe it or why that is, but, um, I felt
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And then I felt like I was forcing myself to do it by the end and, and fortunately made
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the decision to shift into writing, reporting politics, you know, then writing a book, which
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I, you know, in the arts documentary, filmmaking, writing, um, I work with photographers, video
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editors, you know, graphic designers, um, that is the, you know, the bulk of my day, the
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bulk of my week, but there's also a specificity that you need to have, you know, creative, the
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creative enterprise that for whatever reason, uh, kind of conforms or fits within your own,
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your own pattern, your own, um, way of thinking your own skills and talents.
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And so, um, I think I finally tapped into that.
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And I think really this book is, um, the best creative product I've ever done by far.
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The one that has provided me the most satisfaction.
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Um, and you know, on Sunday, the, the day before we were started media for the book launch,
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I was started to feel anxious for the first time about the book.
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I got this, you know, large advance from my publisher.
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I don't want him to be disappointed in the book and, uh, kind of thinking about how the
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You tried, uh, uh, to the greatest of your efforts.
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You're going to do all the media that you can to promote it.
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Um, and, and I felt, you know, then kind of the anxiety dissipated and said, yeah, you
00:23:17.040
And it's up to other people, whether, how they respond.
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And then as soon as I stopped caring about the result, then I get a text from my agent
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And so it's kind of a, uh, you know, it's a paradox, right?
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Creativity is about effort and, and, and strenuous exertion, but then also about openness, receptivity
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It's, uh, you almost think that if you analyze it too much, you might lose it.
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Um, and, and, you know, something that, that you have deep experience with.
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Uh, I remember when my first book came out, this was a, an academic book, meaning it, it
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It was, you know, it would certainly won't, wouldn't have been read by, you know, many,
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It's this book right here, the evolutionary basis of consumption.
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And I remember that once I had finished it, I had something that I think would be an
00:24:18.220
accurate analogy, something akin to a postpartum depression, because as, as you know, now,
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Christopher, having, having given birth to this book, uh, this big intellectual baby,
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You went off into this cave where you opened your laptop with not a single syllable having
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There was a point a year ago where you, you didn't have a word.
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And then a year later, you've got this complete narrative.
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And now you say, you start twiddling your thumbs.
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So I wasn't even thinking at that point about whether it'll be successful or not.
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And luckily for an academic book, it was, you know, it was very successful.
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And of course I've written many books since, uh, but I really felt the blues.
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So I'm at, so before I add anything else, are you feeling a bit of that or is, are things
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moving so quickly, especially with its success that you haven't had a chance to even process
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I, you know, I felt that, that, that, that postpartum, uh, uh, depression with some of
00:25:29.260
my film projects, um, and, and, and, and my early work.
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And, and I think that it, looking back, I, it stems from this gnawing feeling that working
00:25:40.940
on these films, you know, I, I were, and they were broadcast on PBS.
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One of them went to Netflix and by some objective measures, you could say that they were successful.
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They kind of reached an audience in some way, but I had this gnawing feeling that maybe
00:25:58.660
I didn't even quite understand at the time that, oh, I put all this into it.
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There's some, there's some kind of, kind of turmoil inside.
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And, and, and the, the, the, the reason for that looking back was that it's like, does
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We worked, you know, for years on these, this thing it's out there in the world that broadcasts
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And I had this gnawing suspicion that the answer was probably no.
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Um, and, and, and that probably generated some of those negative feelings with the book.
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I think that, um, I haven't felt any of that at all.
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I think partially because the medium is really suitable to me.
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I loved, uh, working on the edits with the editors and publishers and designing the cover,
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And then I had this sense of ease when it was done and kind of let go, didn't think about
00:27:02.120
Um, and now I have a, a real sense, a tangible sense that this book, it matters.
00:27:07.560
Um, it it's important to people, um, not just because it's, you know, kind of climbed up
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the charts to, to number one by the release date, but also because I know that, um, the,
00:27:17.120
the story that I'm telling in this book, the story of the radical left's long march to the
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institutions, um, is going to help so many people that are struggling right now, looking
00:27:28.400
around at their communities and seeing that their university, their children's school,
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um, their local government, their, uh, you know, the media that they read is saturated
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And I know that it's going to give so many people like that who are wondering what the
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How, how is it that all of our institutions are suddenly deranged?
00:27:53.840
Um, I know that it's going to provide them with some deep answers.
00:27:57.180
And so I think that I've escaped that feeling so far.
00:28:00.600
Maybe when the flurry of activity ends, maybe it'll set in.
00:28:03.440
Um, but, uh, but, but for the time being, um, um, it's great.
00:28:09.360
It's, it's such a good feeling and I'm so excited to share it with people.
00:28:12.300
And I can promise you, and certainly given the reception that your book has received so
00:28:17.380
far, that the, the, the positivity wave is going to go on for, for, for the foreseeable
00:28:22.340
There's almost nothing as rewarding to me as when I receive a photo of someone sitting at
00:28:33.200
And then they tag me and it actually comes from a very humble place because the reaction
00:28:38.960
that I get is that person who's going to the beach could have chosen 1 million different
00:28:47.500
things to do, let alone a million different books to read at the beach.
00:28:52.520
And yet they chose mine and they're enjoying it.
00:28:56.560
And so I predict that, I mean, of course, number one, that's a great.
00:29:00.820
Metric of the fact that it's successful, but I think it's the personal cues that you will
00:29:07.280
It's those emails where someone says, I started off as a Brown university, you know, unicornia
00:29:13.920
leftist, and then your book brought me to my senses.
00:29:17.560
So I expect that you're going to have a tsunami of good feelings moving forward.
00:29:26.260
And it's really, it's like a miraculous feeling.
00:29:28.540
You say, wow, I mean, what an honor that people are spending their time.
00:29:34.280
And okay, you go on TV, you do a three minute news piece and it's exciting.
00:29:42.480
But for someone to invest the hours and hours it takes to read a book is a commitment.
00:29:51.420
I mean, it really is a commitment to the author, a tremendous honor to the author, a sign of
00:29:59.580
And it's something that none of us, you know, innately deserve, right?
00:30:03.860
I mean, it's like people can choose to do anything that they want and, and to have people choose
00:30:08.780
to, to, to do that, to read the book, commit to the book, um, enjoy the book, let themselves
00:30:16.060
Uh, I mean, I'm, I'm so excited and I'm starting to get that trickling in.
00:30:19.620
I sent the book out in advanced copies to a number of people and I'm starting to get feedback
00:30:24.700
from my peers, uh, people in politics, people in, in, in the media world.
00:30:29.540
And, uh, and, and it's, you know, these are all people that have busy schedules and some
00:30:33.680
of them, it's like, wow, I'm so honored that you read the book.
00:30:40.900
I, I'm still kind of, you know, in a state of astonishment, um, and, uh, and, and gratitude.
00:30:51.700
Do you think, so this is something that I actually faced with my last book and I'm hoping to not have
00:31:00.220
And that is that, look, the, the happiness book is a universal theme that should be read
00:31:05.460
by anybody irrespective of their political persuasion.
00:31:08.980
But when it came to the parasitic mind or when it came to your current book right here, you
00:31:13.720
expect that people who share your vision of the world might be the ones who consume it.
00:31:19.120
Whereas what you want really from a pragmatic perspective is to get the, the, the folks on
00:31:24.640
CNN, the folks, you know, on MSNBC to be saying, oh, let me check this out and let's see if
00:31:34.260
Regrettably, I, I wasn't able to get on a lot of the shows where the parasitic mind would
00:31:40.860
have had the most influence because otherwise I'm preaching to the converted people who say,
00:31:44.820
yeah, yeah, of course I agree with professor Sam.
00:31:49.920
And did you take specific steps to be able to convince those that need to be convinced
00:32:00.180
You know, one is a more strategic and political answer.
00:32:03.700
And the lesson that I've learned in the recent years of political activism that I've done that
00:32:10.740
It's influenced a presidential order, legislation in 22 states.
00:32:18.280
We abolished a gender ideology in, in, in states.
00:32:22.020
Um, just this year I've worked, uh, led a campaign to abolish the DEI bureaucracy and public
00:32:27.740
universities successfully so far in Florida and Texas.
00:32:31.160
Um, and so as far as actual influence, the lesson that I've learned is that preaching to
00:32:38.460
the choir is actually the best and most important and most effective, uh, means of
00:32:47.580
You have to actually reach people that are most likely to, um, uh, at the marginal kind
00:32:54.700
The, the, the, the, the, the lowest cost per, for influence.
00:32:58.300
You have to engage those people first and then go out in concentric circles.
00:33:02.220
And, and, and in some ways, um, you don't actually have to, you know, persuade your deepest opponents.
00:33:07.800
You have to defeat, uh, uh, defeat them in the public square and the political process.
00:33:16.140
I love going on CNN and MSNBC and NPR and the New York times and Jacobin and, and wherever
00:33:22.540
And I'm really working hard and my team, both with me and also at, at Harper Collins, the
00:33:27.700
publisher, um, we're, we're, we're, we're trying, you know, we're, we keep reaching out
00:33:35.780
And I said, look, any, any, any kind of left-leaning media, you know, book my time.
00:33:47.220
You know, if you're so outraged by what I'm writing.
00:33:49.980
Um, and, and, and so far we've had limited success and I just find it to be such a disappointing
00:33:56.080
moment in our political culture where, uh, you know, even when I was young,
00:34:02.560
younger, kind of during the Bush years, still on the left and then kind of on the right
00:34:06.440
towards the end of that, um, uh, period, uh, in the early Obama years, you still had
00:34:12.020
programs, you know, very famously the CNN crossfire kind of where you had people on left
00:34:23.040
Um, I, I just find it so engaging, um, to, to debate.
00:34:33.440
Um, it allows people to, to, to hear two arguments side by side and make their own, make their
00:34:40.840
And I think it does engage in that work of persuasion.
00:34:43.800
Um, so I'm sure you're like me in the sense that it's, it's such a disappointment that we
00:34:51.120
We'll see if we can do that over the next two to three weeks.
00:34:55.040
Um, but if we can't, we can't ultimately it's up to them.
00:34:57.100
Um, you know, I'm open to it and, uh, we'll see how, how my, uh, my, my critics respond.
00:35:02.540
I think if I can offer you a compliment, you, you, you walk the nice balance between having
00:35:10.160
the honey badger hood that I talk about in the parasitic mind, right?
00:35:14.600
When I ask people, please activate your inner honey badger.
00:35:18.140
So you've got the capacity to be punchy and combative and so on, but I think there is a
00:35:26.740
So for example, the fact that you smile and don't appear sullen already softens any combative
00:35:35.480
So I think from many of the people that I can see being able to speak to those on the
00:35:40.800
opposite, you know, end of the political aisle, you've got the unique set of skills of being
00:35:47.520
a honey badger yet being a friendly honey badger that would hopefully allow you to speak to
00:35:55.900
Yeah, you, you, you have to, you have to have both.
00:35:58.440
And, and I think it's, you know, perhaps stems from a psychological quirk that I have is that
00:36:12.160
I, I, I just, and I, and I think I have, you know, I was thinking about this the other
00:36:16.040
It's like, I have no hatreds for, you know, for even the characters in the book, as we
00:36:21.720
talked about, it's like, oh man, Richard Hanania, the, the recently wrote a review and
00:36:26.720
he said, oh man, I, I came away from reading the book, just hating the figures in the book.
00:36:33.080
And I said, I thought to myself, huh, that's interesting.
00:36:36.040
I spent a lot of time reading and thinking about these people.
00:36:39.800
Their political opinions, I think have yielded disaster, but I don't have a personal sense
00:36:46.640
I have kind of certainly, I think a rational appraisal of their records, but I also try to
00:36:52.880
understand them as human beings and try to be able to connect with them in that way,
00:36:58.480
And so, you know, even people who have been really outright nasty with me or, or, or unfair
00:37:13.480
Um, and, and, and, and, and consequently, I think that I don't let anyone impose their image
00:37:20.700
of me, uh, into my own consciousness, into my own, um, uh, self-definition.
00:37:26.160
And so it kind of just falls off and I can have fun with it.
00:37:33.520
I can redirect it, um, um, without it stinging, um, without it, um, influencing me.
00:37:41.400
And so I, I think that you try to bring a sense of joy or happiness or fun to it.
00:37:50.660
And if you are a kind of, the kind of person who gets angry, morose, taciturn, um, uh, uh,
00:37:58.920
righteous, you know, self-righteous, um, you know, politics can chew you up.
00:38:06.920
Um, and I, and I find that so unfortunate and I don't think that temperamentally it's
00:38:11.240
Well, I love that you use the words, uh, play with it and then use joy because, uh, well,
00:38:16.380
as you know, I think you, you have a sense of my public engagement.
00:38:19.620
One of the things that perhaps separates me from a lot of other professors is other than
00:38:23.800
of course, being able to be serious and austere and professorial.
00:38:26.940
If I go speak at Stanford, I'm also incredibly playful.
00:38:31.980
I wear the, the pink wig to try to mock, you know, the, the woke folks.
00:38:37.120
I self-flagellate and, and, and, and faux self-loathing and people say, how do you pull
00:38:45.020
Well, it's because I immerse myself as a life motto.
00:38:48.740
And I, I talk about this in, in, in my forthcoming book on happiness, I call it life as a playground,
00:38:54.540
So even when we pursue very serious things, like in my case, let's say my scientific career,
00:38:59.700
I view science as a, as the highest form of play, right?
00:39:03.120
Because what are you doing when you're engaging in science?
00:39:08.140
There's this big puzzle of nature and let's see which, which piece of the puzzle goes with
00:39:14.680
So in the same way that you try to complete a 1000 piece puzzle, that's what science is.
00:39:20.980
So even when we are engaging people on social media and being punchy and being a bit spicy,
00:39:26.320
it, at least for myself, there's always a twinkle in my eye.
00:39:31.760
I never, uh, and that's why I sometimes get frustrated when people end up taking it personally,
00:39:37.220
as has happened with some public figures that I used to be friends with are no longer friends
00:39:42.060
with, I never intend to, I never go out to hurt someone or to truly demean them.
00:39:48.340
It's all part of, as you said, an exchange of ideas.
00:39:55.320
And I think that's been very, very, uh, uh, uh, you know, persuasive as a strategy to use.
00:40:02.980
Oftentimes when I get approached by people on the street, they'll actually refer to my
00:40:07.700
comedy routine more than to my actual cerebral work.
00:40:16.400
And, uh, and I think it's magnetic in its appeal.
00:40:21.720
It exposes, uh, an uncomfortable truth or, or, or crosses a taboo, um, in a way that you
00:40:29.920
And, uh, and I think, you know, comedy is, is really one of the highest, uh, forms of,
00:40:37.940
And, and I think perhaps, uh, maybe you are, and, and, and I am as well, uh, as a, as a good
00:40:43.660
Italian kind of Mediterranean in the, in, in this approach, you know, if you look at the,
00:40:47.800
the, the, the Greeks had a kind of systematic, beautiful expression of comedy, uh, you know,
00:40:53.220
many, many, uh, centuries ago, um, you know, the Romans may be a little less funny as it
00:40:57.980
traveled, uh, uh, westward, but, you know, in, to this day in Mediterranean cultures, I
00:41:03.360
mean, if you talk about a group of men coming together from anywhere in the Mediterranean,
00:41:07.360
they rib each other, they roast each other, they destroy each other.
00:41:11.420
I mean, my dad and his Italian friends would just constantly mock each other for where they
00:41:18.460
I mean, and it was all in good humor and it was all a way of connecting beyond those differences.
00:41:24.500
Um, and so I think we may be more comfortable with that.
00:41:27.060
Whereas the kind of woke Anglo Protestant culture is a bit more cold.
00:41:37.980
Um, they, they, they can't handle the, uh, the mockery and the, uh, and the, the, the kind
00:41:45.700
And so we're fighting against that as good Mediterranean.
00:41:49.220
Um, but, but I think ultimately, um, even those, you know, Germans and Scandinavians and,
00:41:55.880
and Anglos, um, they like the humor at the end of the day.
00:42:01.740
And so I think we have to, we have to bring them over further.
00:42:04.180
And I would like to see a society, um, where kind of there's more latitude in what we can
00:42:12.980
Um, and so I, I think that's why people like it.
00:42:14.900
It also demonstrates in a paradoxical way, courage.
00:42:17.660
Um, if you're willing to, to be funny, truly funny, you actually have to have some courage.
00:42:22.780
Uh, and so, so I think that's what people really appreciate about it deep down.
00:42:26.620
And self deprecating humor is the ultimate form of courage and confidence, right?
00:42:31.880
Because when you turn the humor inwards, that actually is paradoxically saying, I'm really
00:42:37.940
confident in my skin and my personhood that I can make fun of myself, you know?
00:42:44.040
Well, I know earlier we talked about serendipity, so I don't know if my next question fits under
00:42:48.680
that mold or it fits under the kind of a priori I'm thinking about the future, but do you ever
00:42:56.960
If you have an answer, do you ever foresee going into politics right now?
00:43:01.160
You've been a filmmaker, you've been a writer or you are a writer, a very successful one.
00:43:05.880
And it turns out, uh, on day one, starting from the blocks, could you ever say, you know
00:43:10.140
what, I'm, I'm tired of just being in the cerebral world.
00:43:16.480
I want to get into the race or you don't ever foresee that.
00:43:21.320
And when I first started getting in politics, I was living in Seattle and my neighbors persuaded
00:43:28.360
And it was, um, it turned out to be kind of a disaster, honestly, you know, I, I didn't
00:43:36.680
Um, I really got a kind of brutal lesson, uh, in bare knuckle politics in Seattle.
00:43:46.460
I ended the campaign, um, just not too long after it started.
00:43:50.180
And it was a humbling moment, um, uh, a humiliating moment in some ways, you know, uh, the, the
00:43:56.980
kind of radical lefties, you know, ran circles around me and, and, and, and gave me a quite
00:44:06.160
One is that some of those failures and, uh, humbling moments are, are, are create these
00:44:14.340
And actually that was really one of the best things that happened to me.
00:44:18.700
I made these great relationships that led me on this path to more journalism and think
00:44:23.220
Um, I learned like, you know, a crash course and how politics really works, um, how power
00:44:32.400
And I think that everything that I've learned that it's been successful in the last few years,
00:44:36.400
I learned in that really awful six week period, uh, in running in, in Seattle politics.
00:44:42.320
Um, but the other lesson that I learned is that everyone is suited for a specific form,
00:44:50.540
Um, and the actual running for political office, um, I, I have like so much respect for anyone
00:44:57.980
who does it and, and all the politicians that I work with, whether it's the president of
00:45:01.960
the United States or governor DeSantis, with whom I've worked closely, uh, state legislators
00:45:08.740
I I'm, I'm in awe of how difficult their job is.
00:45:12.100
Um, I have no cynicism towards politicians at all.
00:45:14.980
I have a deep respect toward, for what they do.
00:45:17.120
It's a very complex, very difficult position requires a lot of self-sacrifice.
00:45:23.120
And so I think that my greatest influence, um, my greatest personal happiness, and then
00:45:29.620
the, the really what I'm made for, you know, what I'm built for, um, is doing the journalism
00:45:38.200
think tank work, reporting, short filmmaking, book writing, um, running this kind of creative
00:45:44.500
studio that, that, that I'm, that I'm, that I'm running and then working with and, and
00:45:49.540
actually serving, um, uh, the political leaders that are doing the really, the really hard
00:45:55.300
work of, of statesmanship vote, getting, you know, uh, baby kissing, uh, handholding, or
00:46:02.460
in Joe Biden's case, you know, baby hair sniffing and fondling.
00:46:06.220
Um, but, uh, you know, and so I, I think that it's like a symbiotic relationship, not a parasitic
00:46:12.700
Um, and, and, and I love, I love working with these guys and I find it so bizarre.
00:46:17.540
A lot of people, even in think tank world or political media, they constantly bitch
00:46:22.680
about politicians and, oh, these people are awful.
00:46:30.260
These people have a much harder job than we do.
00:46:32.660
These people are really putting themselves out there and yeah, are they, you know, playing
00:46:37.900
Are they maybe not courageous in all fronts, but help them, inform them, persuade them,
00:46:43.860
lead them, uh, give them the tools that they need.
00:46:46.600
And so I see my work, um, in the political sphere as, as, as, as one of being, um, helpful
00:46:55.120
We have great guys that can run for office, but what I think we lack, especially on the
00:46:58.740
political right is the visionary intellectual leadership that can inform the political work,
00:47:09.040
And so that's, that's really where I see myself as most successful.
00:47:12.260
Two last questions and then you'll stay for happiness questions for our subscribers.
00:47:16.120
Uh, question one, since we're talking about politics, do you care to weigh in at all in
00:47:21.720
terms of who, whether you want to make a prediction or give your thoughts as to who do you, how do
00:47:27.060
you see the GOP primary unfolding for the 2024, uh, election?
00:47:38.060
Uh, I, I don't have any special insight into that kind of work, but, um, you know, I can
00:47:43.020
say absolutely that, uh, you know, I've publicly supported governor DeSantis.
00:47:47.040
I've worked with the governor on critical race theory, gender ideology, um, you know,
00:47:52.400
the, the, the fight with Walt Disney and then the DEI, uh, uh, reform and public universities.
00:47:58.660
Um, and, you know, in that time over the last couple of years of really getting to know him,
00:48:03.880
observing him closely, watching how he works, watching how he delegates to his team.
00:48:08.640
Um, I, I think he is far and away the best equipped, uh, of the Republican political leaders
00:48:15.920
to lead the country in the right direction, to have the competence and self-discipline of,
00:48:22.200
And just having the vision and the courage, not only to, uh, say the right thing, but to
00:48:30.120
And, uh, I mean, he is a really extraordinary person.
00:48:43.680
The team around him is just incredibly impressive.
00:48:47.220
Um, and so, uh, I, I, I just, I, I'd love to see him.
00:48:51.900
Um, in the white house, I'd love to see him in the oval office.
00:48:54.580
I'm, I'm doing, uh, you know, whatever I can, um, as a, as a, as a, as a, uh, a think tank
00:49:02.860
Um, and certainly in my role is in private, in my private capacity and my non think tank
00:49:07.080
work, my non non nonprofit work, um, you know, to support what he's doing.
00:49:11.240
And so, um, that said, he's going to have a hell of a challenge.
00:49:14.900
He's going up against, uh, Donald Trump who, uh, you know, whatever you think about him
00:49:20.120
has an unbelievable ability to just wipe the board, uh, to, to kind of clear out anyone
00:49:27.560
And so we'll see, this is going to be a test of, of Titans, uh, perhaps in the coming months.
00:49:33.460
And while so many of my colleagues are dreading the conflict, they're dreading the confrontation,
00:49:41.840
I can't wait for them to actually get on the debate stage to go mano a mano.
00:49:45.860
Um, and, and, and, and we'll see what, what voters decide to do.
00:49:50.520
Um, but, uh, you know, and, and you've been in traveling in Florida quite a bit.
00:49:55.580
Um, I mean, it's just a great state and, uh, and, and his leadership has really been tremendous.
00:50:00.780
Speaking of Florida last question, then we'll, we'll do the happiness extra additional question.
00:50:05.760
Uh, I know as an academic, uh, my ears perked up when I heard about this new college of Florida
00:50:12.980
that was instituting all kinds of, you know, classical liberal ideas, you know, anti-woke
00:50:19.460
I know you are on the advisory board or board of governors.
00:50:22.680
Uh, could you take maybe a minute or two to tell us about some of the exciting things
00:50:29.200
In January, um, governor DeSantis appointed me along with a number, a number of other conservative
00:50:34.040
reformers, uh, as a new, uh, trustee majority on the board of trustees for the new college
00:50:40.780
It's a small public liberal arts college that had become really a social justice ghetto.
00:50:47.340
Um, it had a reputation as the lowest performing and the most woke, uh, uh, university in the
00:50:53.720
And DeSantis said, you know, we're not going to shut it down.
00:50:56.160
Although many legislators are trying to shut it down because it's just a, a disaster.
00:51:00.560
We're going to actually take it over and reform it.
00:51:05.640
Uh, we brought in a very tough classical education, uh, uh, uh, minded person named Richard Corcoran
00:51:14.140
He's been involved in Florida politics for many years.
00:51:17.000
Um, we, uh, you know, the, the provost resigned, uh, uh, she was, you know, gone.
00:51:23.940
She was trying to shut down a speech, uh, by me, the trustee, uh, that's not going to fly.
00:51:30.220
So, uh, she made a, thankfully made a, a, a quick exit.
00:51:38.220
Um, uh, she was fired and, and, uh, and, uh, and, and, and dispatched in short order.
00:51:43.460
Um, we now have, um, you know, many of the professors who were the most hardcore woke, who
00:51:49.000
were the most hardcore gender ideologues who really were, were hating this turn towards
00:51:53.660
the classical liberal arts and having open expression.
00:51:55.920
Um, they have all, you know, most of them, many of them have self-selected out.
00:52:01.500
They, or they had their contracts weren't renewed or, or they've, you know, taken up positions
00:52:06.280
They've self-selected out because they don't want to have that open debate.
00:52:11.360
They don't want to have a classical liberal arts institution.
00:52:14.700
They want to have nonstop, you know, gender mania and, and, and, and, uh, you know, left-wing
00:52:19.400
social theory and we're bringing in now, um, hopefully, you know, 30 new, uh, uh, academics,
00:52:26.640
professors committed to a classical liberal arts frame.
00:52:30.200
There's going to be debate of course with them, but they believe in, uh, the mission of
00:52:35.180
And so, um, this is going to be an exciting thing.
00:52:38.640
We were actually just announced that we have a record incoming class.
00:52:42.760
We've recruited more students for our freshman year than any time in the college's history.
00:52:47.260
Um, it, and, and, and we, and we entered this late in the cycle.
00:52:52.780
Um, we really didn't get started till, uh, February, March.
00:52:59.800
We have $50 million of new cash from the legislature.
00:53:02.600
We have the biggest budget in the university's history, the best finances.
00:53:05.940
We're bringing in record number of professors, record number of students.
00:53:08.820
Um, uh, you know, I, I'm, I'm trying to, um, entice, uh, many people, uh, including you
00:53:15.600
to consider, uh, talking with the university and, and looking at it as, as a potential home,
00:53:20.320
because what we're trying to do is something very simple.
00:53:22.820
Um, we want to have all of those academics who are brilliant accomplished and that, but
00:53:28.500
they're under siege by the DEI, by the wokes, by the students mobbing them.
00:53:37.100
And actually we're hoping to put together a new, uh, institute within the university,
00:53:41.840
um, with a number of very high profile people from top tier universities to develop policies,
00:53:47.660
to actually protect open discourse and civil debate on campus.
00:53:50.820
We want to be a hub for that, not just at new college, but in many places.
00:53:56.580
And, and, and for those of us, um, that have been so dismayed by the kind of left-wing ideological
00:54:03.320
capture of our institutions, we're creating a prototype for recapturing, reforming, and
00:54:10.160
reconstituting those institutions on the basis of the classical liberal arts.
00:54:16.580
The number one book on Amazon, as we speak, go get it, do the right thing.
00:54:25.880
Uh, I think this is the, the least of a superstar you'll ever be.
00:54:29.440
You already are one, but you are going to be catapulted into the strategy.
00:54:38.540
And stay on the line for, uh, an additional question to our subscribers.