The Saad Truth with Dr. Saad

00:00:00.000 And I am incredibly excited to have the author of the current number one book on Amazon,

00:00:08.040 not in a subcategory, not in cultural theory, not in social commentary, across all books.

00:00:14.340 He's beating J.K. Rowling, for God's sakes.

00:00:17.360 Christopher Rufo, how are you doing, sir?

00:00:19.440 I'm doing very well, and I appreciate that clarification.

00:00:21.840 I'm always looking when people say number one bestseller and in some obscure category.

00:00:26.460 And so I was actually really shocked to wake up and get messages from my publisher and my agent saying,

00:00:32.180 hey, you're number one on all of Amazon across all categories.

00:00:38.080 Obviously, a huge honor, very exciting.

00:00:40.600 This is my first book.

00:00:42.120 So it's just unbelievable to have that kind of distinction.

00:00:46.520 Well, let me put it up.

00:00:48.180 This is the beauty right here, which I've yet to read.

00:00:51.680 I've perused through it in preparation.

00:00:53.220 I mean, I quickly went through it in preparation for our chat, but I'm hoping to read it soon.

00:00:57.880 Let me just introduce you for those of you who may not know you.

00:01:01.400 This is from your media kit.

00:01:03.160 You're a documentarian.

00:01:04.240 I think you've been part of four films.

00:01:06.960 Senior Fellow at the Manhattan Institute, Contributing Editor at City Journal.

00:01:11.000 You are a leading activist in the fight against CRT, critical race theory.

00:01:16.020 Your investigative reporting has garnered the attention of President Donald Trump,

00:01:19.920 which led to an executive order banning CRT from being promulgated by federal agencies.

00:01:26.100 You are a repeat guest.

00:01:27.480 Maybe the nicest part in your CV.

00:01:30.740 You are a repeat guest on The Sad Truth, having first appeared in October 2021.

00:01:36.000 I'll put a link to that first appearance in our show.

00:01:38.880 And again, the book, currently number one of all books on Amazon, America's Cultural Revolution,

00:01:45.520 How the Radical Left Conquered Everything.

00:01:47.460 Anything else you want to add to the bio before we get going, Christopher?

00:01:51.660 That sounds great.

00:01:52.740 Yeah, let's dig in.

00:01:54.380 Okay, so what I did notice in quickly going over your book is that you have broken up into

00:02:00.620 four sections in a sense that capture some of the promulgators of a lot of the nonsense

00:02:07.660 that we're seeing.

00:02:09.020 Maybe you can just start by telling us who those four people are, what their ideologies are,

00:02:14.140 and hence why they've been such troublemakers.

00:02:16.100 Yeah, so the basic structure of the book is to look at America's cultural revolution in

00:02:22.560 four parts.

00:02:23.260 The first part is the theory of revolution itself.

00:02:26.140 And so I profile the new left philosopher Herbert Marcuse, who really laid down the basic

00:02:32.020 ideology for the radical left in the 1960s and early 1970s that continues to this day.

00:02:39.280 Marcuse was really a prophet for the modern left.

00:02:42.240 He was a deeply trained neo-Marxist philosopher, part of the Frankfurt School, who left Europe

00:02:52.560 prior to World War II, came to the United States.

00:02:56.020 And having dug into his work, I mean, he's really a brilliant man.

00:03:00.660 But his philosophy that he so carefully laid out yielded disaster in his time, yielded disaster

00:03:08.520 everywhere it's been tried, and I really think is currently yielding disaster, as you've seen

00:03:14.040 in recent years with BLM, with the rioting, with the gender movement, with all of these 0.55

00:03:20.040 various strands of left-wing thinking.

00:03:21.440 The second section is race, and I profile Herbert Marcuse's most famous student, Angela

00:03:27.220 Davis, the famous communist revolutionary, Black Panther Party member, and academic radical

00:03:35.580 who was the genesis, in many ways, for the modern BLM movement.

00:03:41.380 The BLM activists, of course, cite her by name.

00:03:43.620 She's their personal mentor.

00:03:45.100 And all the ideas that you see from BLM really can be easily and directly traced back to Angela

00:03:50.240 Davis.

00:03:50.560 The third is education.

00:03:52.660 I profile the Brazilian education theorist, Paulo Freire, and show his really vast and

00:03:58.600 remarkable influence over our graduate schools of education, which, of course, influence how

00:04:03.120 teachers in K-12 schools approach their students.

00:04:07.280 And finally, I look at critical race theory.

00:04:09.560 I spend the last quarter of the book digging into the history of CRT, digging into the ideology,

00:04:15.080 profiling Derek Bell, the godfather of the CRT movement, and showing that if we follow

00:04:19.920 CRT, if we make critical race theory into a system of governance, it's going to lead to really the

00:04:26.380 dismemberment of the American Constitution and the replacement of the American Republic with

00:04:31.220 a system of DEI bureaucrats who redistribute power, wealth, land, and prestige according to

00:04:40.440 the bureaucracy, not according to any individual rights or merits.

00:04:43.960 The last gentleman was, he was a Harvard professor.

00:04:48.060 So would he have been the guy that, I can't remember if it, is he the one that Barack Obama

00:04:53.120 viewed as a mentor?

00:04:54.280 Is that the same guy?

00:04:55.960 That's right.

00:04:56.420 Yeah, there's this famous video that came out in the 2012 presidential campaign, Obama's

00:05:01.900 campaign for re-election, that tied him to Derek Bell.

00:05:05.520 He actually was a Harvard Law student at the time.

00:05:08.060 Derek Bell was engaging in a protest against Harvard Law School, which he denounced as a

00:05:13.140 racist and sexist.

00:05:15.340 And Obama very famously gives a speech in defense of Derek Bell, praises Derek Bell, gives a nice

00:05:20.960 warm hug to Derek Bell.

00:05:22.400 It actually fell flat during the campaign.

00:05:26.120 It wasn't the line of attack that Republicans had hoped it would be, because critical race

00:05:31.840 theory is very abstract.

00:05:33.560 It's very intellectual.

00:05:36.980 It didn't have the immediate resonance or political punch that might have been required.

00:05:42.260 But it's a really interesting genealogy, where you have Derek Bell becoming Harvard Law's

00:05:49.320 first full-time African-American professor in the late 1960s.

00:05:53.120 He has a radical turn, trained some of his students into a discipline that then became

00:05:58.100 known as critical race theory, and had an influence even on the future president of the

00:06:02.940 United States of America.

00:06:04.080 And so CRT is not the right-wing fantasy that some on the left had claimed it would be, but

00:06:13.940 actually something with a very concrete lineage.

00:06:16.380 It conquered elite institutions.

00:06:19.000 It conquered the graduate schools of education.

00:06:21.360 And then it conquered so many K-12 classrooms around the country.

00:06:25.560 Now, in your book, you're making this specific point.

00:06:28.520 I mean, there are real nefarious objectives and goals behind these ideologies.

00:06:33.540 The frontal attack on Western tradition, Western values.

00:06:37.620 And of course, I fully agree with those, and certainly when it comes to Marxism and so on,

00:06:41.880 which are completely antithetical to our way of life.

00:06:45.300 In my previous book, The Parasitic Mind, I take a slightly more charitable position, not

00:06:52.520 to be frivolously charitable, but I argue that many of the idea pathogens, as I call them,

00:06:58.660 really start off not necessarily with nefarious goals.

00:07:01.840 They start off with a noble goal, which then metamorphosizes into nonsense in the pursuit

00:07:08.380 of that noble goal.

00:07:09.240 So for example, equity feminisms, most people would agree with men and women should be treated 1.00

00:07:14.520 equally under the law.

00:07:15.680 But then radical feminists usurp that movement and argue that if we're going to make substantive 1.00

00:07:20.920 changes in the dynamics between the sexes, we have to argue that men and women are indistinguishable 0.99

00:07:26.560 from each other.

00:07:27.180 There are no biological differences that define male or female.

00:07:31.840 So is there any room, in your view, for some of these ideologues actually not being the

00:07:39.000 diabolical, nefarious folks that we think they are, but where they're actually coming

00:07:43.280 from a good place, or it's all negative?

00:07:46.040 No.

00:07:46.480 I mean, I think that when you read through the book, and I've had even kind of left-wing

00:07:51.860 critics and left-wing people in my orbit who've read the book say, wow, the analysis, the

00:07:58.940 biographical sketches, is honest, it's compassionate, it's very human, you understand these folks

00:08:06.200 even at points of disagreement in a real way.

00:08:08.900 And what I tried to do with the book is really first understand these figures as they understood

00:08:14.160 themselves.

00:08:15.480 And of course, they understood themselves as fighting for noble goals.

00:08:19.280 And then the most self-aware of these figures, realized in some cases, and then became disillusioned

00:08:26.260 with the horrible consequences that emerged from these goals.

00:08:30.480 And so I think the big story in the book, the driving, really the driving structure of

00:08:37.080 all these narratives, is the process of idealism being corrupted and then yielding unintended

00:08:45.160 consequences that are really devastating.

00:08:48.600 And so, for example, Paolo Freira, he had a noble goal, which was to free third world

00:08:55.960 populations from Western imperialism, domination, and exploitation, and to teach the citizens of

00:09:04.060 these formerly colonial countries how to read, how to have political consciousness, how

00:09:09.520 to engage in a democratic process.

00:09:11.720 But what you see over the course of his career is that as he worked with these Marxist-Leninist

00:09:16.640 regimes in the third world, in Africa and Latin America in particular, he became a propagandist

00:09:22.020 for a new totalitarianism that was in some cases worse than the colonial regimes that preceded

00:09:28.080 them. 0.69

00:09:28.560 They were barbaric, they were torturers, they were killers, they engaged in horrific crimes, 1.00

00:09:33.460 they looted their own countries. 0.53

00:09:34.780 And researchers have found that his theories of literacy going into a country like Guinea-Bissau on

00:09:42.700 the west coast of Africa, they made him the leader of their educational efforts, bringing

00:09:48.520 literacy to the masses, bringing literacy to the countrysides and the tribal people of the interior.

00:09:54.240 But some researchers looked into it, they had access to the archives, and they found that he

00:09:58.100 actually didn't teach anyone how to read.

00:10:00.360 He was just purely disseminating political propaganda.

00:10:03.020 It didn't work to teach these poor, deprived people even basic literacy skills.

00:10:09.360 And so the story of the book is the story of idealistic people that had an ideology that

00:10:17.960 they thought was going to make the world a better place, to transcend the limitations and

00:10:24.240 the oppressions of their time, that had catastrophic unintended consequences.

00:10:29.500 And I think that process of idealism and disillusionment is at the heart of left-wing ideologies.

00:10:37.400 It seems that wherever we look, the people who follow this logical strand, that is very appealing

00:10:44.760 on the surface level.

00:10:45.800 There's something inexorable about this process that, as it unfolds over time, yields these conclusions

00:10:53.640 that are a dramatic reversal from what they intended.

00:10:57.580 Do you think that a lot of the ideas that are promulgated by these four folks, and more

00:11:04.240 generally, many of these sort of parasitic ideas, do you think that they are more likely

00:11:09.920 to be stickable or impress young people because of this kind of unicornia, utopian vision?

00:11:19.040 And then, as we know, many people grow out of that sort of that progressivism bent, right?

00:11:24.720 But all other things equal, if I'm 20 years old and I'm at Brown University, yes, I think

00:11:29.680 the world is unfair.

00:11:30.860 And I think that Marxism is a great way to create equality.

00:11:33.800 We'll all hold hands and sing Imagine by John Lennon.

00:11:37.020 So do you think that ultimately many of those ideas that might be intoxicating to me when I'm

00:11:43.160 20 eventually lose appeal?

00:11:45.740 Like, do we grow out of these ideas or not?

00:11:49.300 Yeah, I mean, some of us do.

00:11:50.760 I know that I certainly did.

00:11:52.560 Oh, so you started off with a progressive bent?

00:11:55.540 For sure.

00:11:56.380 Yeah, very much so.

00:11:57.300 Yeah, I started off with a very kind of hard left bent.

00:12:00.320 And when I was in my teenage years and even into college and then kind of life experience,

00:12:08.240 my own study, my own experience, my own travel especially dissuaded me from that philosophical

00:12:14.940 system, because I found that it wasn't compatible with the reality as I really understood it.

00:12:21.360 But the question that you have is a really good one.

00:12:24.560 And I think that, you know, as now as a conservative, I have to concede to my friends and opponents

00:12:30.060 on the left that their system of ideas has really mastered the strategies for tapping into

00:12:39.220 human emotions, human motivation, human inspiration.

00:12:42.600 And they do it on on both poles.

00:12:44.840 They do it on a negative pole because they they are really just masterful at manipulating the

00:12:51.460 feelings of guilt, envy, resentment, hatred, very powerful, dark emotions that guide so much

00:13:00.420 of human behavior.

00:13:01.180 They have a great ability to cast the villain in the story quite persuasively.

00:13:08.420 And then on the positive side, someone like Marcuse or a Paolo Frera, they propose these

00:13:15.100 really inspirational, beautiful, utopian concepts.

00:13:20.080 You'll be liberated from your oppressors.

00:13:22.920 You will find freedom in your life beyond necessity.

00:13:26.880 Um, you will have, uh, even, um, unrestrained sexuality.

00:13:32.300 Uh, Marcuse was famous for, um, we don't need the superego anymore.

00:13:36.620 Uh, we can have a flowering and totally free sexuality.

00:13:40.800 Um, and so, you know, when you're 20, that sounds great.

00:13:44.560 You have, you know, you don't need to get a job.

00:13:46.420 Uh, you don't need to fit into the system.

00:13:49.040 Uh, you don't need to be, uh, um, productive.

00:13:51.600 Um, and, and, and you can have an kind of utterly free, um, sexual experience, um, uh, at that

00:13:58.960 age is like, that sounds great.

00:14:00.660 And, and by the way, you're morally superior to all these other bad people out there that

00:14:05.820 are the ones that are really holding you back.

00:14:07.840 Um, and so look, I mean, that is a very attractive, um, narrative for people, especially younger

00:14:13.420 people.

00:14:14.400 Um, but then you, you, you have to then say, all right, great.

00:14:17.820 That's a nice promise.

00:14:19.020 But does the promise deliver?

00:14:21.360 And I found that in my own life experience as, as, as a, as a human being in my own study

00:14:27.220 as an intellect, you know, looking at, at, at a wider range of, of reading and materials

00:14:32.700 and arguments.

00:14:33.580 And then in my own observation, the, the actual direct observation of the world of my external

00:14:39.060 world reality, um, having traveled to many countries in my twenties during my time as a

00:14:43.160 documentary filmmaker, I, I mean, I concluded this was like, there's absolutely no way that

00:14:48.100 these, that this set of ideas, the set of ideas, you know, of course, in the book, the

00:14:51.240 set of ideas more broadly, um, has any chance of conforming with reality in a way that actually

00:14:57.540 leads to true human happiness or human flourishing.

00:15:01.740 One of the things that's remarkable in your life.

00:15:04.620 And in a sense, I could easily link it to, I have a forthcoming book next week, forgive

00:15:08.360 the shameless plug on my show.

00:15:10.120 I have a book on happiness, uh, and part of the, the joy of life are the serendipitous

00:15:16.020 unexpected moments that happen to us that fall on our lap.

00:15:19.880 And I think, and you'll correct me if I'm wrong.

00:15:22.380 I think one of the things that's quite remarkable in your career, I mean, you didn't set out

00:15:27.000 necessarily to be at the place that you are today.

00:15:30.560 Sure.

00:15:30.920 You were interested in, in, in, in immersing yourself in ideas, but the CRT stuff that came

00:15:38.340 your way was in some sense accidental, right?

00:15:41.280 Where people would send you what's happening with them.

00:15:44.360 So maybe could you trace for us, you know, how you went from wherever you were three, four

00:15:49.660 years ago to today, having the number one, uh, book across all of Amazon, how did that

00:15:55.740 happen?

00:15:56.100 And does it really speak to the magic of serendipity?

00:15:59.300 Yeah, I know.

00:16:00.060 I mean, it does serendipity is, is everything, you know, I think in my younger, uh, days in

00:16:04.980 my twenties, I was, you know, hyper-focused, hyper-driven, you know, hyper-success oriented

00:16:11.080 and I planned everything.

00:16:13.040 I made these, you know, these looking back kind of ridiculous plans of this is what I'm

00:16:17.240 going to do in three years, five years.

00:16:18.760 And, um, I, I found that that way of thinking and living was so, it put so much pressure on

00:16:26.900 the self, it, and that it squashes creativity.

00:16:30.700 It squashes your own receptivity to the world, to chance, to friendships, to experiences.

00:16:38.220 And, um, and as I learned to give that up and be open to, uh, more experiences, something

00:16:45.520 I can probably still work on today.

00:16:47.520 Um, all of these amazing opportunities happened that I think I was ready to, to, and curious

00:16:54.060 enough, um, to look into.

00:16:55.960 And so moving from the left to the right was based on serendipity moving from to a career

00:17:01.540 in the documentary film world was based on a chance encounter I had in a grocery store

00:17:06.460 when I was getting ready to graduate from college, getting into politics was in some

00:17:11.160 ways serendipitous.

00:17:11.860 And then CRT, which really launched me on the trajectory I had today came from an anonymous

00:17:16.580 tip sent to my email that I was curious about.

00:17:19.920 I followed up on, I reported on, and it led to this really incredible sequence of events

00:17:25.180 where I was then invited on Tucker Carlson.

00:17:27.240 I then called on president Trump to issue an executive order to abolish CRT.

00:17:32.400 The next morning I actually get a call from the white house saying that, Hey, the president

00:17:35.880 was watching, uh, Tucker last night, he saw you and he agrees.

00:17:40.120 He wants to do an executive order.

00:17:41.400 Can you come, uh, you know, uh, rally with our team, uh, you know, on zoom, it was during

00:17:45.900 the pandemic and, and, and help us craft this order.

00:17:49.020 And then that led to a book deal with Harper Collins.

00:17:52.040 And now we find it on the number one bestseller as it comes out today.

00:17:55.500 Um, you know, and, and all of this is, um, I like to think through my own efforts, through

00:18:02.420 my own talents, through my own, uh, uh, my own, you know, uh, capacities.

00:18:07.160 And I think there is that you have to work hard.

00:18:09.660 You have to have talent.

00:18:10.800 You have to really, um, pursue, uh, these, these, these opportunities, but a lot of it

00:18:16.840 and really the genius of our system and the United States of having, you know, free enterprise,

00:18:21.680 having, uh, individual, uh, rights, having a free press, having free association, you

00:18:28.000 know, with, with some limits, unfortunately, um, it allows for that serendipity to happen

00:18:33.460 as opposed to a planned society, a communist society, a dreary society.

00:18:38.640 And I think that paradoxically, the, the people who, you know, you know, Herbert Marcuse was

00:18:45.020 a prophet of spontaneity.

00:18:46.560 He actually used that exact word over and over in his work, but his philosophy leads to

00:18:51.680 a deadened society that is planned.

00:18:54.900 Um, that is, that is, um, uh, antithetical to the spontaneity that we need in life.

00:18:59.640 And so the liberal system, and there are anti-liberals on the left and the right, but the liberal

00:19:05.380 system at its best, um, allows for that spontaneous reaction of ideas and forces and, and material,

00:19:14.300 um, that, that, that creates so much of our happiness that is, um, cannot be described

00:19:20.220 in, in, in rational terms and it cannot be planned through rational means.

00:19:24.760 Well, one of the things that I talk about in my forthcoming book, when I'm discussing the,

00:19:29.580 what I consider to be the most, the two most important decisions that, uh, can either impart

00:19:34.520 great misery on an individual or great happiness is the following two choices, choosing the right

00:19:39.220 spouse and choosing the right profession.

00:19:41.260 Now, when it comes to choosing the right profession, I argue that all other things equal the professions

00:19:47.300 that are most likely to impart the greatest amount of purpose and meaning are ones that allow

00:19:53.020 you to instantiate yourself within the creative impulse.

00:19:55.720 Now, the creative impulse could be, I'm a chef, therefore I create new dishes that before

00:20:00.920 I put my hands on them did not exist on that plate.

00:20:03.520 It could be creating as, as an architect.

00:20:05.900 I create, you know, all kinds of monuments, bridges, buildings.

00:20:10.260 I can create as a filmmaker, as you did.

00:20:12.940 I can create as a professor in my scientific work.

00:20:15.860 I can create as an author.

00:20:17.140 I can create as a podcaster.

00:20:19.120 So do you feel that a lot of the serendipitous, uh, moments that have allowed you to have the

00:20:25.320 trajectory that has led you to where you are today stems specifically in your case, also

00:20:30.820 from being someone who has to constantly be immersed within the creative impulse?

00:20:36.300 Yeah, it's, it's interesting though.

00:20:38.600 For me, there's, there's a bit of a wrinkle to the story.

00:20:41.480 I mean, first of all, I think that the choice of a spouse and a family is, is number one.

00:20:46.680 I think that's the most important decision related to happiness.

00:20:49.660 And, uh, I'm very fortunate to have an incredible spouse and, and three incredible kids.

00:20:54.560 And, you know, even when things are tough or stressful at work, you know, you go home

00:20:58.560 and you reconnect with your family or spend the weekend together.

00:21:01.580 And it's just, you know, the best.

00:21:03.360 It doesn't, doesn't beat that.

00:21:04.820 But actually in my career as a filmmaker, I was very unhappy for many years.

00:21:09.020 Um, uh, I felt very frustrated.

00:21:11.640 I felt like, um, uh, the, the medium was not quite right.

00:21:16.480 And I'm still not even really sure how to describe it or why that is, but, um, I felt

00:21:21.260 a restlessness.

00:21:22.080 And then I felt like I was forcing myself to do it by the end and, and fortunately made

00:21:26.520 the decision to shift into writing, reporting politics, you know, then writing a book, which

00:21:31.340 is much more suitable to me.

00:21:32.800 So I think that there's also some specificity.

00:21:37.240 So I, I mean, I'm a creative person.

00:21:39.620 I, you know, in the arts documentary, filmmaking, writing, um, I work with photographers, video

00:21:45.320 editors, you know, graphic designers, um, that is the, you know, the bulk of my day, the

00:21:49.960 bulk of my week, but there's also a specificity that you need to have, you know, creative, the

00:21:55.580 creative enterprise that for whatever reason, uh, kind of conforms or fits within your own,

00:22:02.540 your own pattern, your own, um, way of thinking your own skills and talents.

00:22:08.660 And so, um, I think I finally tapped into that.

00:22:12.120 And I think really this book is, um, the best creative product I've ever done by far.

00:22:17.920 The one that has provided me the most satisfaction.

00:22:20.800 Um, and you know, on Sunday, the, the day before we were started media for the book launch,

00:22:25.120 I was talking with my wife.

00:22:26.120 I was started to feel anxious for the first time about the book.

00:22:28.820 So, oh my gosh, this book is coming out.

00:22:30.980 I've never published a book.

00:22:32.040 I, I don't know how it's going to perform.

00:22:33.480 I got this, you know, large advance from my publisher.

00:22:36.780 I don't want him to be disappointed in the book and, uh, kind of thinking about how the

00:22:41.540 public's going to react.

00:22:42.660 And, and she said something very interesting.

00:22:44.200 She says, examine how you feel about the book.

00:22:48.260 You've come a long way.

00:22:49.500 You found your medium.

00:22:51.100 You've put everything into it.

00:22:52.760 You didn't leave any stone unturned.

00:22:54.260 You tried, uh, uh, to the greatest of your efforts.

00:22:57.460 It's in print with a publisher.

00:22:59.920 Um, uh, um, you've done everything you can.

00:23:02.880 You're going to do all the media that you can to promote it.

00:23:05.120 Um, and now you have to let go.

00:23:07.040 Um, and, and I felt, you know, then kind of the anxiety dissipated and said, yeah, you

00:23:10.900 know, this is my creativity is now done.

00:23:14.860 Um, this is what I've produced.

00:23:16.320 This is what I've created.

00:23:17.040 And it's up to other people, whether, how they respond.

00:23:19.600 And then as soon as I stopped caring about the result, then I get a text from my agent

00:23:23.620 and my publisher saying you're number one.

00:23:25.560 And so it's kind of a, uh, you know, it's a paradox, right?

00:23:29.800 Creativity is about effort and, and, and strenuous exertion, but then also about openness, receptivity

00:23:35.960 and letting go.

00:23:37.140 Um, it's a, you know, I don't know.

00:23:39.360 It's, uh, you almost think that if you analyze it too much, you might lose it.

00:23:44.120 Um, but it's such a mystery.

00:23:45.780 It's such a, uh, uh, fascinating process.

00:23:49.180 Um, and, and, you know, something that, that you have deep experience with.

00:23:52.460 I'd be curious to hear your, your, your take.

00:23:54.000 Well, thank you for asking.

00:23:55.620 Uh, I remember when my first book came out, this was a, an academic book, meaning it, it

00:24:01.420 wasn't a trade book.

00:24:02.340 It was, you know, it would certainly won't, wouldn't have been read by, you know, many,

00:24:06.520 many hundreds of thousands of people.

00:24:07.860 It's this book right here, the evolutionary basis of consumption.

00:24:10.480 And I remember that once I had finished it, I had something that I think would be an

00:24:18.220 accurate analogy, something akin to a postpartum depression, because as, as you know, now,

00:24:25.500 Christopher, having, having given birth to this book, uh, this big intellectual baby,

00:24:32.640 uh, you, you, you've been so focused.

00:24:36.300 You went off into this cave where you opened your laptop with not a single syllable having

00:24:41.780 been struck at one point.

00:24:43.540 There was a point a year ago where you, you didn't have a word.

00:24:46.620 And then a year later, you've got this complete narrative.

00:24:49.700 It goes off to your publisher.

00:24:52.360 And now you say, you start twiddling your thumbs.

00:24:54.860 That's it.

00:24:55.400 What's going to happen.

00:24:56.220 So I wasn't even thinking at that point about whether it'll be successful or not.

00:25:00.480 And luckily for an academic book, it was, you know, it was very successful.

00:25:03.700 And of course I've written many books since, uh, but I really felt the blues.

00:25:08.980 So I'm at, so before I add anything else, are you feeling a bit of that or is, are things

00:25:15.160 moving so quickly, especially with its success that you haven't had a chance to even process

00:25:20.780 any of the postpartum part?

00:25:23.300 Yeah.

00:25:23.920 I, you know, I felt that, that, that, that postpartum, uh, uh, depression with some of

00:25:29.260 my film projects, um, and, and, and, and my early work.

00:25:33.660 And, and I think that it, looking back, I, it stems from this gnawing feeling that working

00:25:40.940 on these films, you know, I, I were, and they were broadcast on PBS.

00:25:45.140 They went to film festivals.

00:25:46.540 One of them went to Netflix and by some objective measures, you could say that they were successful.

00:25:52.560 They kind of reached an audience in some way, but I had this gnawing feeling that maybe

00:25:58.660 I didn't even quite understand at the time that, oh, I put all this into it.

00:26:03.240 I feel there's some anxiety.

00:26:05.960 There's some, there's some kind of, kind of turmoil inside.

00:26:10.460 And, and, and the, the, the, the reason for that looking back was that it's like, does

00:26:14.280 this matter?

00:26:15.300 You know, I put all this effort in this film.

00:26:17.680 I raised money.

00:26:18.640 We worked, you know, for years on these, this thing it's out there in the world that broadcasts

00:26:23.800 on TV.

00:26:24.300 Um, but is it making any dent in the world?

00:26:28.260 Is it having any impact on people?

00:26:30.620 And I had this gnawing suspicion that the answer was probably no.

00:26:35.480 Um, and, and, and that probably generated some of those negative feelings with the book.

00:26:40.440 I think that, um, I haven't felt any of that at all.

00:26:44.460 I think partially because the medium is really suitable to me.

00:26:47.920 I loved writing the book.

00:26:49.180 I love doing the research.

00:26:50.260 I loved, uh, working on the edits with the editors and publishers and designing the cover,

00:26:55.260 um, and doing all of that work.

00:26:57.580 And then I had this sense of ease when it was done and kind of let go, didn't think about

00:27:01.420 it.

00:27:02.120 Um, and now I have a, a real sense, a tangible sense that this book, it matters.

00:27:07.560 Um, it it's important to people, um, not just because it's, you know, kind of climbed up

00:27:12.400 the charts to, to number one by the release date, but also because I know that, um, the,

00:27:17.120 the story that I'm telling in this book, the story of the radical left's long march to the

00:27:21.420 institutions, um, is going to help so many people that are struggling right now, looking

00:27:28.400 around at their communities and seeing that their university, their children's school,

00:27:35.080 um, their local government, their, uh, you know, the media that they read is saturated

00:27:40.260 with these really insidious ideologies.

00:27:44.140 And I know that it's going to give so many people like that who are wondering what the

00:27:48.200 hell happened in 2020.

00:27:49.980 How, how is it that all of our institutions are suddenly deranged?

00:27:53.840 Um, I know that it's going to provide them with some deep answers.

00:27:57.180 And so I think that I've escaped that feeling so far.

00:28:00.600 Maybe when the flurry of activity ends, maybe it'll set in.

00:28:03.440 Um, but, uh, but, but for the time being, um, um, it's great.

00:28:09.360 It's, it's such a good feeling and I'm so excited to share it with people.

00:28:12.300 And I can promise you, and certainly given the reception that your book has received so

00:28:17.380 far, that the, the, the positivity wave is going to go on for, for, for the foreseeable

00:28:21.800 future.

00:28:22.340 There's almost nothing as rewarding to me as when I receive a photo of someone sitting at

00:28:30.620 a beach with a copy of my book.

00:28:33.200 And then they tag me and it actually comes from a very humble place because the reaction

00:28:38.960 that I get is that person who's going to the beach could have chosen 1 million different

00:28:47.500 things to do, let alone a million different books to read at the beach.

00:28:52.520 And yet they chose mine and they're enjoying it.

00:28:56.560 And so I predict that, I mean, of course, number one, that's a great.

00:29:00.820 Metric of the fact that it's successful, but I think it's the personal cues that you will

00:29:06.300 receive from people.

00:29:07.280 It's those emails where someone says, I started off as a Brown university, you know, unicornia

00:29:13.920 leftist, and then your book brought me to my senses.

00:29:17.560 So I expect that you're going to have a tsunami of good feelings moving forward.

00:29:22.520 And that's, that's fantastic.

00:29:24.440 Yeah.

00:29:24.680 Yeah.

00:29:24.920 No, I a hundred percent agree.

00:29:26.260 And it's really, it's like a miraculous feeling.

00:29:28.540 You say, wow, I mean, what an honor that people are spending their time.

00:29:34.280 And okay, you go on TV, you do a three minute news piece and it's exciting.

00:29:38.840 And maybe you get some emails.

00:29:39.760 Hey, I saw you on, on, on Fox last night.

00:29:41.880 Great job.

00:29:42.480 But for someone to invest the hours and hours it takes to read a book is a commitment.

00:29:51.420 I mean, it really is a commitment to the author, a tremendous honor to the author, a sign of

00:29:57.940 respect to the author.

00:29:59.580 And it's something that none of us, you know, innately deserve, right?

00:30:03.860 I mean, it's like people can choose to do anything that they want and, and to have people choose

00:30:08.780 to, to, to do that, to read the book, commit to the book, um, enjoy the book, let themselves

00:30:14.180 be reached by the book.

00:30:16.060 Uh, I mean, I'm, I'm so excited and I'm starting to get that trickling in.

00:30:19.620 I sent the book out in advanced copies to a number of people and I'm starting to get feedback

00:30:24.700 from my peers, uh, people in politics, people in, in, in the media world.

00:30:29.540 And, uh, and, and it's, you know, these are all people that have busy schedules and some

00:30:33.680 of them, it's like, wow, I'm so honored that you read the book.

00:30:36.600 You love it.

00:30:36.980 You understand it.

00:30:37.680 You appreciate it.

00:30:38.680 And so I, I, I take none of it for granted.

00:30:40.900 I, I'm still kind of, you know, in a state of astonishment, um, and, uh, and, and gratitude.

00:30:47.020 Yeah.

00:30:47.220 I mean, it really is, uh, a grateful feeling.

00:30:50.100 Um, and, uh, I love it.

00:30:51.700 Do you think, so this is something that I actually faced with my last book and I'm hoping to not have

00:30:58.260 to face with the happiness book.

00:31:00.220 And that is that, look, the, the happiness book is a universal theme that should be read

00:31:05.460 by anybody irrespective of their political persuasion.

00:31:08.980 But when it came to the parasitic mind or when it came to your current book right here, you

00:31:13.720 expect that people who share your vision of the world might be the ones who consume it.

00:31:19.120 Whereas what you want really from a pragmatic perspective is to get the, the, the folks on

00:31:24.640 CNN, the folks, you know, on MSNBC to be saying, oh, let me check this out and let's see if

00:31:30.220 he's got arguments.

00:31:31.260 Uh, now I can speak for myself.

00:31:34.260 Regrettably, I, I wasn't able to get on a lot of the shows where the parasitic mind would

00:31:40.860 have had the most influence because otherwise I'm preaching to the converted people who say,

00:31:44.820 yeah, yeah, of course I agree with professor Sam.

00:31:46.520 Do you worry about that?

00:31:49.920 And did you take specific steps to be able to convince those that need to be convinced

00:31:55.460 in reading this book?

00:31:57.320 Yeah, I have two answers to that.

00:32:00.180 You know, one is a more strategic and political answer.

00:32:03.700 And the lesson that I've learned in the recent years of political activism that I've done that

00:32:09.820 has been successful.

00:32:10.740 It's influenced a presidential order, legislation in 22 states.

00:32:14.800 Um, we reformed the curriculum on CRT.

00:32:18.280 We abolished a gender ideology in, in, in states. 0.99

00:32:22.020 Um, just this year I've worked, uh, led a campaign to abolish the DEI bureaucracy and public

00:32:27.740 universities successfully so far in Florida and Texas.

00:32:31.160 Um, and so as far as actual influence, the lesson that I've learned is that preaching to

00:32:38.460 the choir is actually the best and most important and most effective, uh, means of

00:32:44.560 influence.

00:32:45.560 Um, and it really is the whole game.

00:32:47.580 You have to actually reach people that are most likely to, um, uh, at the marginal kind

00:32:53.140 of the marginal way, right?

00:32:54.700 The, the, the, the, the, the lowest cost per, for influence.

00:32:58.300 You have to engage those people first and then go out in concentric circles.

00:33:02.220 And, and, and in some ways, um, you don't actually have to, you know, persuade your deepest opponents.

00:33:07.800 You have to defeat, uh, uh, defeat them in the public square and the political process.

00:33:12.680 That said, um, I love doing opposition media.

00:33:16.140 I love going on CNN and MSNBC and NPR and the New York times and Jacobin and, and wherever

00:33:21.820 else.

00:33:22.540 And I'm really working hard and my team, both with me and also at, at Harper Collins, the

00:33:27.700 publisher, um, we're, we're, we're, we're trying, you know, we're, we keep reaching out

00:33:32.180 to people.

00:33:32.620 We're trying to engage.

00:33:33.680 We're trying to persuade.

00:33:34.480 I'm offering to do any interviews.

00:33:35.780 And I said, look, any, any, any kind of left-leaning media, you know, book my time.

00:33:42.800 I'm open.

00:33:43.320 I will come on your show.

00:33:44.340 I'll debate.

00:33:45.000 I'll let you criticize me.

00:33:46.160 I'll let you yell at me.

00:33:47.220 You know, if you're so outraged by what I'm writing.

00:33:49.980 Um, and, and, and so far we've had limited success and I just find it to be such a disappointing

00:33:56.080 moment in our political culture where, uh, you know, even when I was young,

00:34:02.560 younger, kind of during the Bush years, still on the left and then kind of on the right

00:34:06.440 towards the end of that, um, uh, period, uh, in the early Obama years, you still had

00:34:12.020 programs, you know, very famously the CNN crossfire kind of where you had people on left

00:34:18.100 and right, and they were always debating.

00:34:19.900 That's where is that?

00:34:21.420 Why don't we have that anymore?

00:34:23.040 Um, I, I just find it so engaging, um, to, to debate.

00:34:28.160 It sharpens me.

00:34:29.820 It sharpens my opponent.

00:34:31.000 It creates a higher sense of stakes.

00:34:33.440 Um, it allows people to, to, to hear two arguments side by side and make their own, make their

00:34:39.720 own, uh, minds up.

00:34:40.840 And I think it does engage in that work of persuasion.

00:34:43.800 Um, so I'm sure you're like me in the sense that it's, it's such a disappointment that we

00:34:48.620 don't have that.

00:34:49.280 And I'm trying to revive it.

00:34:51.120 We'll see if we can do that over the next two to three weeks.

00:34:53.760 Um, if we can, we can.

00:34:55.040 Um, but if we can't, we can't ultimately it's up to them.

00:34:57.100 Um, you know, I'm open to it and, uh, we'll see how, how my, uh, my, my critics respond.

00:35:02.540 I think if I can offer you a compliment, you, you, you walk the nice balance between having

00:35:10.160 the honey badger hood that I talk about in the parasitic mind, right? 0.98

00:35:14.600 When I ask people, please activate your inner honey badger.

00:35:18.140 So you've got the capacity to be punchy and combative and so on, but I think there is a

00:35:24.860 personal style, right?

00:35:26.740 So for example, the fact that you smile and don't appear sullen already softens any combative

00:35:34.540 positions that you take.

00:35:35.480 So I think from many of the people that I can see being able to speak to those on the

00:35:40.800 opposite, you know, end of the political aisle, you've got the unique set of skills of being

00:35:47.520 a honey badger yet being a friendly honey badger that would hopefully allow you to speak to

00:35:53.300 the folks that are in loony land.

00:35:55.900 Yeah, you, you, you have to, you have to have both.

00:35:58.440 And, and I think it's, you know, perhaps stems from a psychological quirk that I have is that

00:36:03.440 I love politics.

00:36:05.540 I love the fight.

00:36:07.320 I love the scrum.

00:36:08.820 I love the muckraking.

00:36:10.700 I love the debate.

00:36:12.160 I, I, I just, and I, and I think I have, you know, I was thinking about this the other

00:36:15.860 day.

00:36:16.040 It's like, I have no hatreds for, you know, for even the characters in the book, as we

00:36:21.720 talked about, it's like, oh man, Richard Hanania, the, the recently wrote a review and

00:36:26.720 he said, oh man, I, I came away from reading the book, just hating the figures in the book.

00:36:31.480 And to me, it was very surprising.

00:36:33.080 And I said, I thought to myself, huh, that's interesting.

00:36:36.040 I spent a lot of time reading and thinking about these people.

00:36:39.800 Their political opinions, I think have yielded disaster, but I don't have a personal sense

00:36:45.200 of hatred or disgust.

00:36:46.640 I have kind of certainly, I think a rational appraisal of their records, but I also try to

00:36:52.880 understand them as human beings and try to be able to connect with them in that way,

00:36:57.760 first and foremost.

00:36:58.480 And so, you know, even people who have been really outright nasty with me or, or, or unfair

00:37:04.180 with me, um, I can kind of let it go.

00:37:07.960 Um, I don't take it personally.

00:37:09.880 I know who I am.

00:37:10.680 I know what I believe.

00:37:11.660 I know what I'm fighting for.

00:37:13.480 Um, and, and, and, and, and consequently, I think that I don't let anyone impose their image

00:37:20.700 of me, uh, into my own consciousness, into my own, um, uh, self-definition.

00:37:26.160 And so it kind of just falls off and I can have fun with it.

00:37:30.320 I can engage with it.

00:37:31.220 I can play with it.

00:37:32.000 I can subvert it.

00:37:33.520 I can redirect it, um, um, without it stinging, um, without it, um, influencing me.

00:37:41.400 And so I, I think that you try to bring a sense of joy or happiness or fun to it.

00:37:50.660 And if you are a kind of, the kind of person who gets angry, morose, taciturn, um, uh, uh,

00:37:58.920 righteous, you know, self-righteous, um, you know, politics can chew you up.

00:38:04.500 I mean, you see it destroy people.

00:38:06.920 Um, and I, and I find that so unfortunate and I don't think that temperamentally it's

00:38:10.640 for everyone.

00:38:11.240 Well, I love that you use the words, uh, play with it and then use joy because, uh, well,

00:38:16.380 as you know, I think you, you have a sense of my public engagement.

00:38:19.620 One of the things that perhaps separates me from a lot of other professors is other than

00:38:23.800 of course, being able to be serious and austere and professorial.

00:38:26.940 If I go speak at Stanford, I'm also incredibly playful.

00:38:30.820 I use satire.

00:38:31.980 I wear the, the pink wig to try to mock, you know, the, the woke folks.

00:38:37.120 I self-flagellate and, and, and, and faux self-loathing and people say, how do you pull

00:38:44.640 it off?

00:38:45.020 Well, it's because I immerse myself as a life motto.

00:38:48.740 And I, I talk about this in, in, in my forthcoming book on happiness, I call it life as a playground,

00:38:54.180 right?

00:38:54.540 So even when we pursue very serious things, like in my case, let's say my scientific career,

00:38:59.700 I view science as a, as the highest form of play, right?

00:39:03.120 Because what are you doing when you're engaging in science?

00:39:05.820 You're taking a bunch of variables.

00:39:08.140 There's this big puzzle of nature and let's see which, which piece of the puzzle goes with

00:39:13.560 which other piece, right?

00:39:14.680 So in the same way that you try to complete a 1000 piece puzzle, that's what science is.

00:39:20.980 So even when we are engaging people on social media and being punchy and being a bit spicy,

00:39:26.320 it, at least for myself, there's always a twinkle in my eye.

00:39:30.360 I'm always playful.

00:39:31.760 I never, uh, and that's why I sometimes get frustrated when people end up taking it personally,

00:39:37.220 as has happened with some public figures that I used to be friends with are no longer friends

00:39:42.060 with, I never intend to, I never go out to hurt someone or to truly demean them.

00:39:48.340 It's all part of, as you said, an exchange of ideas.

00:39:52.040 Once in a while, I use humor, satire, sarcasm.

00:39:55.320 And I think that's been very, very, uh, uh, uh, you know, persuasive as a strategy to use.

00:40:02.980 Oftentimes when I get approached by people on the street, they'll actually refer to my

00:40:07.700 comedy routine more than to my actual cerebral work.

00:40:12.220 Comedy works.

00:40:13.120 What are your thoughts?

00:40:14.380 Yeah, I know.

00:40:15.180 Comedy absolutely works.

00:40:16.400 And, uh, and I think it's magnetic in its appeal.

00:40:19.540 It draws people in and makes them laugh.

00:40:21.720 It exposes, uh, an uncomfortable truth or, or, or crosses a taboo, um, in a way that you

00:40:28.280 can only do through comedy.

00:40:29.920 And, uh, and I think, you know, comedy is, is really one of the highest, uh, forms of,

00:40:34.940 of, of art, of life, of expression.

00:40:37.940 And, and I think perhaps, uh, maybe you are, and, and, and I am as well, uh, as a, as a good

00:40:43.660 Italian kind of Mediterranean in the, in, in this approach, you know, if you look at the,

00:40:47.800 the, the, the Greeks had a kind of systematic, beautiful expression of comedy, uh, you know,

00:40:53.220 many, many, uh, centuries ago, um, you know, the Romans may be a little less funny as it 1.00

00:40:57.980 traveled, uh, uh, westward, but, you know, in, to this day in Mediterranean cultures, I

00:41:03.360 mean, if you talk about a group of men coming together from anywhere in the Mediterranean,

00:41:07.360 they rib each other, they roast each other, they destroy each other.

00:41:11.420 I mean, my dad and his Italian friends would just constantly mock each other for where they

00:41:16.080 were from, for where their accents were.

00:41:18.460 I mean, and it was all in good humor and it was all a way of connecting beyond those differences.

00:41:24.500 Um, and so I think we may be more comfortable with that.

00:41:27.060 Whereas the kind of woke Anglo Protestant culture is a bit more cold. 0.88

00:41:34.180 It's a bit more Northern.

00:41:35.980 It's a bit more dour.

00:41:37.980 Um, they, they, they can't handle the, uh, the mockery and the, uh, and the, the, the kind

00:41:44.360 of clever play with that.

00:41:45.700 And so we're fighting against that as good Mediterranean. 0.96

00:41:49.220 Um, but, but I think ultimately, um, even those, you know, Germans and Scandinavians and,

00:41:55.880 and Anglos, um, they like the humor at the end of the day.

00:41:59.960 I think that they, they can't resist it.

00:42:01.740 And so I think we have to, we have to bring them over further.

00:42:04.180 And I would like to see a society, um, where kind of there's more latitude in what we can

00:42:09.740 talk about, joke about, mock and engage.

00:42:12.980 Um, and so I, I think that's why people like it.

00:42:14.900 It also demonstrates in a paradoxical way, courage.

00:42:17.660 Um, if you're willing to, to be funny, truly funny, you actually have to have some courage.

00:42:22.780 Uh, and so, so I think that's what people really appreciate about it deep down.

00:42:26.620 And self deprecating humor is the ultimate form of courage and confidence, right?

00:42:31.880 Because when you turn the humor inwards, that actually is paradoxically saying, I'm really

00:42:37.940 confident in my skin and my personhood that I can make fun of myself, you know?

00:42:42.700 Uh, yeah.

00:42:43.760 Okay.

00:42:44.040 Well, I know earlier we talked about serendipity, so I don't know if my next question fits under

00:42:48.680 that mold or it fits under the kind of a priori I'm thinking about the future, but do you ever

00:42:54.000 foresee?

00:42:55.220 Now don't, don't get coy.

00:42:56.960 If you have an answer, do you ever foresee going into politics right now?

00:43:01.160 You've been a filmmaker, you've been a writer or you are a writer, a very successful one.

00:43:05.880 And it turns out, uh, on day one, starting from the blocks, could you ever say, you know

00:43:10.140 what, I'm, I'm tired of just being in the cerebral world.

00:43:13.720 I want to be the top dog of change.

00:43:16.480 I want to get into the race or you don't ever foresee that.

00:43:19.640 No, I don't actually.

00:43:21.320 And when I first started getting in politics, I was living in Seattle and my neighbors persuaded

00:43:25.940 me to, to try to run for city council.

00:43:28.360 And it was, um, it turned out to be kind of a disaster, honestly, you know, I, I didn't

00:43:33.680 understand politics.

00:43:34.440 I didn't understand the dynamics of the city.

00:43:36.680 Um, I really got a kind of brutal lesson, uh, in bare knuckle politics in Seattle.

00:43:42.220 I ended up just saying, this is not for me.

00:43:44.560 I, I dropped the candidacy.

00:43:46.460 I ended the campaign, um, just not too long after it started.

00:43:50.180 And it was a humbling moment, um, uh, a humiliating moment in some ways, you know, uh, the, the

00:43:56.980 kind of radical lefties, you know, ran circles around me and, and, and, and gave me a quite

00:44:01.260 a, a, a, a, quite a showing.

00:44:04.460 So two lessons from that.

00:44:06.160 One is that some of those failures and, uh, humbling moments are, are, are create these

00:44:13.340 serendipitous opportunities.

00:44:14.340 And actually that was really one of the best things that happened to me.

00:44:17.080 I splashed into politics.

00:44:18.700 I made these great relationships that led me on this path to more journalism and think

00:44:22.660 tank work.

00:44:23.220 Um, I learned like, you know, a crash course and how politics really works, um, how power

00:44:29.820 politics works, how media politics works.

00:44:32.400 And I think that everything that I've learned that it's been successful in the last few years,

00:44:36.400 I learned in that really awful six week period, uh, in running in, in Seattle politics.

00:44:42.320 Um, but the other lesson that I learned is that everyone is suited for a specific form,

00:44:48.780 a specific method.

00:44:50.540 Um, and the actual running for political office, um, I, I have like so much respect for anyone

00:44:57.980 who does it and, and all the politicians that I work with, whether it's the president of

00:45:01.960 the United States or governor DeSantis, with whom I've worked closely, uh, state legislators

00:45:06.520 that I'm in communication with constantly.

00:45:08.740 I I'm, I'm in awe of how difficult their job is.

00:45:12.100 Um, I have no cynicism towards politicians at all.

00:45:14.980 I have a deep respect toward, for what they do.

00:45:17.120 It's a very complex, very difficult position requires a lot of self-sacrifice.

00:45:21.200 Um, and it's really just not for me.

00:45:23.120 And so I think that my greatest influence, um, my greatest personal happiness, and then

00:45:29.620 the, the really what I'm made for, you know, what I'm built for, um, is doing the journalism

00:45:38.200 think tank work, reporting, short filmmaking, book writing, um, running this kind of creative

00:45:44.500 studio that, that, that I'm, that I'm, that I'm running and then working with and, and

00:45:49.540 actually serving, um, uh, the political leaders that are doing the really, the really hard

00:45:55.300 work of, of statesmanship vote, getting, you know, uh, baby kissing, uh, handholding, or

00:46:02.460 in Joe Biden's case, you know, baby hair sniffing and fondling.

00:46:06.220 Um, but, uh, you know, and so I, I think that it's like a symbiotic relationship, not a parasitic

00:46:12.160 relationship.

00:46:12.700 Um, and, and, and I love, I love working with these guys and I find it so bizarre.

00:46:17.540 A lot of people, even in think tank world or political media, they constantly bitch 1.00

00:46:22.680 about politicians and, oh, these people are awful. 0.99

00:46:25.840 You know, party, these guys are the worst. 0.52

00:46:27.560 And it's like, what are you doing?

00:46:30.260 These people have a much harder job than we do.

00:46:32.660 These people are really putting themselves out there and yeah, are they, you know, playing

00:46:37.060 to the crowd?

00:46:37.900 Are they maybe not courageous in all fronts, but help them, inform them, persuade them,

00:46:43.860 lead them, uh, give them the tools that they need.

00:46:46.600 And so I see my work, um, in the political sphere as, as, as, as one of being, um, helpful

00:46:53.640 and providing intellectual leadership.

00:46:55.120 We have great guys that can run for office, but what I think we lack, especially on the

00:46:58.740 political right is the visionary intellectual leadership that can inform the political work,

00:47:06.100 um, uh, uh, in, in a substantive way.

00:47:09.040 And so that's, that's really where I see myself as most successful.

00:47:12.060 Got you.

00:47:12.260 Two last questions and then you'll stay for happiness questions for our subscribers.

00:47:16.120 Uh, question one, since we're talking about politics, do you care to weigh in at all in

00:47:21.720 terms of who, whether you want to make a prediction or give your thoughts as to who do you, how do

00:47:27.060 you see the GOP primary unfolding for the 2024, uh, election?

00:47:32.360 Yeah.

00:47:32.900 Yeah.

00:47:33.220 I, yeah.

00:47:33.520 I don't really make predictions.

00:47:35.220 Uh, uh, I'm not a horse race analyst.

00:47:38.060 Uh, I, I don't have any special insight into that kind of work, but, um, you know, I can

00:47:43.020 say absolutely that, uh, you know, I've publicly supported governor DeSantis.

00:47:47.040 I've worked with the governor on critical race theory, gender ideology, um, you know,

00:47:52.400 the, the, the fight with Walt Disney and then the DEI, uh, uh, reform and public universities.

00:47:58.660 Um, and, you know, in that time over the last couple of years of really getting to know him,

00:48:03.880 observing him closely, watching how he works, watching how he delegates to his team.

00:48:08.640 Um, I, I think he is far and away the best equipped, uh, of the Republican political leaders

00:48:15.920 to lead the country in the right direction, to have the competence and self-discipline of,

00:48:20.620 of leading a presidential administration.

00:48:22.200 And just having the vision and the courage, not only to, uh, say the right thing, but to

00:48:28.280 actually get the right thing done.

00:48:30.120 And, uh, I mean, he is a really extraordinary person.

00:48:34.640 He has, uh, intellectual gifts.

00:48:38.060 He has, um, uh, rhetorical gifts.

00:48:40.980 He has a gift for leadership and management.

00:48:43.680 The team around him is just incredibly impressive.

00:48:47.220 Um, and so, uh, I, I, I just, I, I'd love to see him.

00:48:51.900 Um, in the white house, I'd love to see him in the oval office.

00:48:54.580 I'm, I'm doing, uh, you know, whatever I can, um, as a, as a, as a, as a, uh, a think tank

00:49:00.360 scholar to provide him with policy ideas.

00:49:02.860 Um, and certainly in my role is in private, in my private capacity and my non think tank

00:49:07.080 work, my non non nonprofit work, um, you know, to support what he's doing.

00:49:11.240 And so, um, that said, he's going to have a hell of a challenge.

00:49:14.900 He's going up against, uh, Donald Trump who, uh, you know, whatever you think about him

00:49:20.120 has an unbelievable ability to just wipe the board, uh, to, to kind of clear out anyone

00:49:26.080 that's standing in his way.

00:49:27.560 And so we'll see, this is going to be a test of, of Titans, uh, perhaps in the coming months.

00:49:33.460 And while so many of my colleagues are dreading the conflict, they're dreading the confrontation,

00:49:38.200 I I'm relishing it.

00:49:40.460 I'm, I'm enjoying it.

00:49:41.840 I can't wait for them to actually get on the debate stage to go mano a mano.

00:49:45.860 Um, and, and, and, and we'll see what, what voters decide to do.

00:49:50.520 Um, but, uh, you know, and, and you've been in traveling in Florida quite a bit.

00:49:55.580 Um, I mean, it's just a great state and, uh, and, and his leadership has really been tremendous.

00:50:00.440 It is.

00:50:00.780 Speaking of Florida last question, then we'll, we'll do the happiness extra additional question.

00:50:05.760 Uh, I know as an academic, uh, my ears perked up when I heard about this new college of Florida

00:50:12.980 that was instituting all kinds of, you know, classical liberal ideas, you know, anti-woke

00:50:19.020 stuff.

00:50:19.460 I know you are on the advisory board or board of governors.

00:50:22.680 Uh, could you take maybe a minute or two to tell us about some of the exciting things

00:50:26.540 happening with that institution?

00:50:28.540 Yeah, absolutely.

00:50:29.200 In January, um, governor DeSantis appointed me along with a number, a number of other conservative

00:50:34.040 reformers, uh, as a new, uh, trustee majority on the board of trustees for the new college

00:50:39.960 of Florida.

00:50:40.780 It's a small public liberal arts college that had become really a social justice ghetto.

00:50:47.340 Um, it had a reputation as the lowest performing and the most woke, uh, uh, university in the

00:50:53.200 system.

00:50:53.720 And DeSantis said, you know, we're not going to shut it down.

00:50:56.160 Although many legislators are trying to shut it down because it's just a, a disaster.

00:51:00.560 We're going to actually take it over and reform it.

00:51:02.640 So we came in, uh, we fired the president.

00:51:05.640 Uh, we brought in a very tough classical education, uh, uh, uh, minded person named Richard Corcoran

00:51:12.000 who also has immense political skills.

00:51:14.140 He's been involved in Florida politics for many years.

00:51:17.000 Um, we, uh, you know, the, the provost resigned, uh, uh, she was, you know, gone.

00:51:22.560 I had gotten in a confrontation from her.

00:51:23.940 She was trying to shut down a speech, uh, by me, the trustee, uh, that's not going to fly. 0.54

00:51:29.260 We're not going to do that.

00:51:30.220 So, uh, she made a, thankfully made a, a, a quick exit. 0.99

00:51:33.860 Uh, we abolished the DEI department.

00:51:35.900 We set the DEI director packing.

00:51:38.220 Um, uh, she was fired and, and, uh, and, uh, and, and, and dispatched in short order.

00:51:43.460 Um, we now have, um, you know, many of the professors who were the most hardcore woke, who

00:51:49.000 were the most hardcore gender ideologues who really were, were hating this turn towards

00:51:53.660 the classical liberal arts and having open expression.

00:51:55.920 Um, they have all, you know, most of them, many of them have self-selected out.

00:52:00.800 They've resigned.

00:52:01.500 They, or they had their contracts weren't renewed or, or they've, you know, taken up positions

00:52:05.900 elsewhere.

00:52:06.280 They've self-selected out because they don't want to have that open debate.

00:52:09.980 They don't want to have civil discourse.

00:52:11.360 They don't want to have a classical liberal arts institution.

00:52:14.700 They want to have nonstop, you know, gender mania and, and, and, and, uh, you know, left-wing 0.84

00:52:19.400 social theory and we're bringing in now, um, hopefully, you know, 30 new, uh, uh, academics,

00:52:26.640 professors committed to a classical liberal arts frame.

00:52:30.200 There's going to be debate of course with them, but they believe in, uh, the mission of

00:52:34.240 the classical liberal arts.

00:52:35.180 And so, um, this is going to be an exciting thing.

00:52:38.640 We were actually just announced that we have a record incoming class.

00:52:42.760 We've recruited more students for our freshman year than any time in the college's history.

00:52:47.260 Um, it, and, and, and we, and we entered this late in the cycle.

00:52:52.780 Um, we really didn't get started till, uh, February, March.

00:52:56.320 And so we're going to expand the university.

00:52:59.800 We have $50 million of new cash from the legislature.

00:53:02.600 We have the biggest budget in the university's history, the best finances.

00:53:05.940 We're bringing in record number of professors, record number of students.

00:53:08.820 Um, uh, you know, I, I'm, I'm trying to, um, entice, uh, many people, uh, including you

00:53:15.600 to consider, uh, talking with the university and, and looking at it as, as a potential home,

00:53:20.320 because what we're trying to do is something very simple.

00:53:22.820 Um, we want to have all of those academics who are brilliant accomplished and that, but

00:53:28.500 they're under siege by the DEI, by the wokes, by the students mobbing them.

00:53:33.500 They don't feel protected.

00:53:34.700 They don't feel supported.

00:53:35.780 We want to be the new home for that.

00:53:37.100 And actually we're hoping to put together a new, uh, institute within the university,

00:53:41.840 um, with a number of very high profile people from top tier universities to develop policies,

00:53:47.660 to actually protect open discourse and civil debate on campus.

00:53:50.820 We want to be a hub for that, not just at new college, but in many places.

00:53:54.060 And so, um, this is exciting.

00:53:56.580 And, and, and for those of us, um, that have been so dismayed by the kind of left-wing ideological

00:54:03.320 capture of our institutions, we're creating a prototype for recapturing, reforming, and

00:54:10.160 reconstituting those institutions on the basis of the classical liberal arts.

00:54:14.660 Incredibly exciting guys.

00:54:16.580 The number one book on Amazon, as we speak, go get it, do the right thing.

00:54:23.180 Christopher, what a pleasure to speak to you.

00:54:25.880 Uh, I think this is the, the least of a superstar you'll ever be.

00:54:29.440 You already are one, but you are going to be catapulted into the strategy.

00:54:33.320 Catosphere, my good man.

00:54:34.520 Great job.

00:54:35.240 Congratulations on the success of the book.

00:54:36.260 That's very kind of you.

00:54:37.400 Thank you so much.

00:54:38.260 Cheers.

00:54:38.540 And stay on the line for, uh, an additional question to our subscribers.

00:54:42.160 Thanks.

00:54:42.980 Okay.

My Chat with Christopher Rufo, Author of America’s Cultural Revolution (The Saad Truth with Dr. Saad_578)

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