Yossi Cohen, former Director of the Mossad from 2016 to 2021, shares his story of how he became a member of the Israeli intelligence agency, why he left the service, and how he was recruited by the agency.
00:12:45.620A lot of people, and again, this has become very evident to me because I'm someone who is very much publicly engaged.
00:12:52.280And so I see all of the hate coming to Jews in general and to Israel, quote, Zionism in particular.
00:12:58.580One of the arguments that I hear from some of my American friends is, and I think you addressed this in the book,
00:13:04.240oh, in the same way that we should be isolationist and not care about what happens in Ukraine, this is not our battle.
00:13:10.640Why is it that Israel has so intoxicated us into, you know, helping them as much as we do?
00:13:16.900And of course, the answer is going to be that there's a lot of reciprocity that happens.
00:13:20.560Talk us a bit through that so that we can quell the idea that it's a one-way parasitic relationship.
00:13:29.040Well, in between us and the world, I mean, there is a kind of a very specific relationship.
00:13:33.760I mean, I don't think that any country is, and any other country that I'm aware of, and I've been traveling around, I'm sure like you, Professor Saad,
00:13:41.200I mean, around the world, I mean, you know, you know countries and you know cultures.
00:13:44.500I don't think that there is any one single country that you can eventually compare into the State of Israel,
00:13:57.500I mean, some of them are unilaterally being decided or you have to take these kind of decisions to make sure that the State of Israel will exist if the world like it or if the world doesn't like it.
00:14:09.600And somehow, I would say the problem of being the State of Israel the way it is or the position of the State of Israel right now is because this has been failed to be explained.
00:14:28.380The question that you ask cannot be explained only by me.
00:14:54.520I mean, recently there was a kind of a round of violence between Pakistan and India.
00:14:59.320Should we be part of it or should we go and fight?
00:15:02.800I mean, against one side, of course, we will have the Indians.
00:15:06.440As much as we can and we did, all right?
00:15:09.500But we're not going to sell, you know, Ukraine, these kind of weapons they absolutely need when the world is not doing it or when the world is not doing it enough.
00:15:39.740Because they have important, they had important elements in Syria.
00:15:43.620And when the Russian presence is so high in Syria, which is the buffer between Iran and Lebanon, Hezbollah, we have to make sure that the Russians will allow us to attack either Iranians delivering weapons to the terror organization in Lebanon or else.
00:15:59.860Yes. So you really have to calculate all that in a very different manner.
00:16:08.100You did. You mentioned earlier that, you know, a case has to be better made and so on for the issues that I asked.
00:16:14.380Which leads me naturally to the next question.
00:16:16.840And I hope you'll tell me if I'm being fair or not.
00:16:20.040And I think you also do address this in the book.
00:16:22.180So when you think, for example, of the Mossad, I mean, you think of almost these superheroes that can pull off the Hezbollah pager thing.
00:16:29.560You think of all kinds of incredible, you know, where the Mossad agents are pretending to be tennis players in the Gulf countries and take out this guy and that guy.
00:16:37.320It really is straight out of James Bond movies.
00:16:39.340Now, when you compare that level of, you know, tactical ability to the propaganda war, and certainly as one who is a big defender of Israel and is, of course, also very proud Jew, I often say, as somebody who studies psychology of persuasion, I say, why is it that Israel doesn't seem to be quite as adept in pulling off the propaganda war?
00:17:07.520Or in the way they're able to pull off some of these other miraculous things.
00:17:12.780Or is it just that there are so many haters coming at us that even if there are great points that you're making, you're being drowned by a tsunami of hate?
00:18:00.820So, but you have to communicate it around the world.
00:18:03.600I mean, you have to explain what is the state of Israel is all about.
00:18:07.280And when you do that, I think that you can create a kind of a pushback to the very negative sound that is coming from the world.
00:18:16.960Eventually, when the war is started, even on normal days, the state of Israel from its first day of creation suffers from bad news or bad concept.
00:18:30.420Or, I mean, very terrible, I mean, the discussions about the state of Israel and only of its creation.
00:18:37.920And, of course, 67 was a kind of an adjective.
00:18:40.600I mean, something that the world either was astonished or didn't like.
00:18:47.160But the expectations of Israel being something that it is not is always there.
00:18:53.660And I think that cynically the world is still communicating that as if we are doing something super wrong.
00:19:01.640And I think that the state of Israel failed to explain.
00:19:05.000I don't see anyone even trying to push back, I mean, all this negative news.
00:19:08.980Like, I know that there are, let's say, a billion that do not agree with the existence of the state of Israel.
00:20:12.240Actually, this is maybe, maybe, I'm not sure that there is a hunger in Gaza, but this may be part of the unfortunate situation of the Gazan people because they've been held by a terror organization which doesn't let them leave correctly.
00:20:27.840And the state of Israel is doing that war alone.
00:20:31.860Well, the world has tried to defeat Daesh.
00:20:35.420First, President Obama consolidated 74 countries to fight the same size of organization as Hamas.
00:22:12.840So do you think that there could ever be a day, whether you saw it through your connections with the Abraham Accord or all your intimate friendships that you developed through the years with Arabs and Muslims, where that cancer, whereby you're teaching kids straight out of the womb that the Jew is the ultimate problem in your life, can we get rid of that and be able to live in brotherly peace?
00:22:41.280And the best example that I can refer to is what my dear friend, Sheikh Mohammed bin Zayed of United Our Emirates has done and instructed.
00:22:55.040Immediately after signing the Abraham Accords, he changed the educational system in favor of the state of Israel.
00:23:01.380So all this that was like probably using bad description of who we are has changed and they teach positive things about us.
00:23:14.020And you were absolutely right, Professor Saad.
00:23:15.900I mean, the minute you will go into the educational system and you will teach kids that being in Israel or being Jewish is okay, they will never think either way around.
00:23:27.680I mean, it has to be educated positively either way.
00:23:30.000I mean, this is the best antidote that I can offer.
00:23:36.420Having served as the former director of the Mossad for five years, did you walk away from all of the things that you have experienced with a optimistic view of human nature or a pessimistic view of human nature?
00:23:52.440Well, partially I'm optimistic, but knowing the mankind or whatever, I mean, you mean very, very deep experience.
00:24:04.920I mean, some of what we see currently is very much worrying.
00:24:11.140People can create a kind of hate crime.
00:24:14.900I mean, even here in New York, I mean, a few days ago, I mean, shooting a kind of a member of the Congress member only because someone thinks differently than him.
00:24:26.460And at 22 years, a boy took a gun and killed him.