00:00:00.000I'm delighted to report that I have joined as a scholar the Declaration of Independence Center
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00:01:05.720Hi, everybody. This is Ghat Saad. I am very, very delighted today to have another fantastic guest,
00:01:11.860a lawyer from Britain. Don't send me emails saying that she has a much sexier voice than I have.
00:01:18.640that will offend me we've got natasha hausdorf how are you doing i'm extremely well wonderful
00:01:25.360to be with you guys and i'm sorry that i have the advantage of the uh british accent that's it as
00:01:30.700soon as you see the british accent you're already smarter uh all right let me just for the for the
00:01:36.160people who may not know who you are you're a british barrister international law expert you're
00:01:41.760the legal director of uk lawyers for israel charitable trust you've clerked for the president
00:01:47.380of the Supreme Court of Israel, which is quite befitting in that I recently had someone,
00:01:52.900a mutual friend, I guess we could say now, Yonatan Green, who wrote a big academic tome
00:01:58.440about the Israeli Supreme Court. And of course, perhaps you've become most known for using your
00:02:04.500legal expertise to ardently defend Israel. Anything else you want to add to that bio
00:02:10.400before we delve into all the discussions we want to talk about?
00:02:13.160Well, thank you. That's extremely kind. I would perhaps only say that I've certainly seen my role more as seeking to defend international law and the proper application of it and the rule of law.
00:02:25.560The fact that it is interpreted as coming to the defense of Israel, I think, really speaks volumes about the challenges that we're facing in this particular subject.
00:02:35.940Indeed. In a sense, I was hoping to start light, but you kind of delved into that. But I wanted to tell a story, which I asked for your permission before we got on air. We met for the first time in Israel, in Jerusalem, at the Jew-hating global anti-Semitism conference.
00:02:57.180uh anti-anti-semitism conference anti-anti-semitism conference it's funny because a couple of days
00:03:03.920ago i was telling my publicist that i was going to speak at an anti-zionism conference and then
00:03:10.540she wrote back and she said anti-zionism question mark i meant no critical of anti-zionism she got
00:03:16.480woof anyways uh so we were sitting at the table having this wonderful conversation and sort of
00:03:21.760of course i'm somebody who studies human mating preferences and we got to talking about
00:03:26.660what might be some typical mating attributes that different people like and you said well you know
00:03:31.760i sort of have a predilection to you know nerdy guys to which my 14 year old son looked at you
00:03:39.280and said you know i'm pretty nerdy myself pretty impressive for a 14 year old to to box way above
00:03:46.020his weight class no well clearly the apple doesn't fall far from the tree well you're very kind i've
00:03:52.220taught him well all right so now let's get down to some serious stuff how did so first maybe you
00:03:57.300could tell us about what what is your sort of your main legal expertise what does it mean to be
00:04:03.420an international law expert and i ask this because i know many either students of law i i introduced
00:04:11.200you to one off air who wishes to be a lawyer so tell us what does it mean to be an international
00:04:16.160law expert uh well certainly that's the way uh that i have been increasingly described as i've
00:04:22.120been doing media. My practice, as is the case for many English barristers, is very much broader than
00:04:29.240that. So I'm in a mixed common law set of chambers, and I do everything from civil, commercial,
00:04:35.900regulatory work, and then certainly some international arbitration and public international
00:04:40.800law. And it was public international law and specifically the law of armed conflict that was
00:04:45.560my academic background. There isn't that much opportunity, you know, in the broad spectrum of
00:04:51.680practicing law. For the practice of international law, I'm sure you'll appreciate that the nature
00:04:57.700of state to state disputes is, of course, far narrower than the random disputes that you will
00:05:05.520no doubt encounter in domestic courts. So it really has been over the last few years in particular
00:05:11.920that I decided to draw back on a lot of what I had previously shut the door on, namely my academic
00:05:20.560focus on the law of armed conflict, on national security matters. And part of that was a response
00:05:28.020to what I saw as the wholesale misrepresentation of so much of this law. And I think the reason
00:05:35.860that that has been so successful, this misrepresentation, weaponization, inversion,
00:05:41.640even abuse of international law, is because, you know, general levels of literacy on international
00:05:47.940law are not particularly high. And so when you are presented with these sorts of allegations
00:05:52.940that X, Y, Z is illegal under international law, most people will accept that. They will
00:05:59.400go along with it. And one of my primary focuses now in my role with UK Lawyers for Israel
00:06:05.080is really educational and focusing on public education, on international law, liaising
00:06:11.780also, of course, with politicians, decision makers, engaging with academics. But really
00:06:16.920that educational aspect of spreading awareness of what real international law is, has become
00:06:24.320very much more prominent alongside my practice. So, you know, as I'm hearing you speak about,
00:06:30.440you know, correcting some of the misconceptions that people might have regarding a particular
00:06:34.580international legal treaties, I'm thinking about, as a psychologist, as someone who studies, you
00:06:41.340know, what are the optimal persuasion strategies to use in different contexts, right? And so,
00:06:46.920In my own personal engagement with the public, I can be very professorial or I can be very satirical and I'm mocking something.
00:06:54.820I'm actually acting like a, quote, buffoon because I actually think that that is the optimal strategy to explain some lunacy.
00:07:03.760having said all that one of the ways that we typically create a taxonomy of persuasion
00:07:09.860strategies is are you going to invoke someone's cognitive system their thinking versus their
00:07:16.520affective system so cognitive would be here are the seven reasons why you should purchase
00:07:21.340my mutual front my mutual fund affective would be here's the reason why you should have this
00:07:28.520perfume, right? One is triggering your emotions, your hedonic, you know, aesthetics. So in the
00:07:36.520context of legal persuasion, I wonder if in a sense, it's a misapplication to the problem in
00:07:44.060that you may come along with all of the absolute veridical positions, whereas my position that
00:07:51.240Israel should not exist is not going to be countered by any of your, you know, brilliant
00:07:56.620legal analyses it's an emotional position i have so do you see that there is this misalignment
00:08:02.060between all of the you know powerful historical and legal facts that are on your side and what
00:08:08.420the other side wants to hear which is la la la i don't want to hear what natasha has to say
00:08:12.280oh 100 and that's made um even more problematic when you consider some of the tactics that are
00:08:19.160used by that you know other side if you will in the context of this discussion on israel
00:08:23.700that will use and abuse human emotion with misinformation and propaganda.
00:08:31.740We've seen that especially in the last two and a half years
00:08:35.040with the sorts of images that are coming out of Gaza.
00:08:38.840Now, many of them are accurate and very tragic.
00:08:42.700And it's always been my position that the responsibility for that suffering
00:08:46.820has to be properly attributed to the terrorists that are using these human shields,
00:08:51.620to those that, of course, started this whole saga on the 7th of October with their barbarous
00:08:58.460atrocities. But then we've also had alongside that such an avalanche of fake images, either
00:09:06.040AI generated or from other conflicts around the world, or one particular phenomenon, which
00:09:13.340presented a succession of supposedly starving children that have all subsequently been pointed
00:09:20.500out, proven to be very sick children, children who had very serious health conditions that
00:09:27.580prevented them from taking on nutrients. But then the moment that an ordinary individual
00:09:32.820is presented with a very difficult image to stomach and is told falsely that Israel is
00:09:39.100responsible for starving this child, I think what you're alluding to here is that reason,
00:09:44.580logic, all of that goes out of the window and you have this very understandable guttural response.
00:09:50.500And I think that the only possibility of navigating that, I do think that it is possible.
00:09:57.900And I have seen, in fact, you know, the facts, the law, the practical analysis having an impact on certainly some people.
00:10:06.620But I think there are two potential messages that do have a chance of overcoming that false messaging and the very powerful effect it has.
00:10:15.300And the first is that these people who have succumbed to this propaganda need to understand that they have been lied to.
00:10:22.920They have had the wool pulled over their eyes.
00:10:25.840And the second very important message is that what is now being done to Israel with this false imagery,
00:10:33.460with the false application of international law and the weaponization of international law against essentially the only democracy in the Middle East,
00:10:41.680what starts with Israel will not end with Israel.
00:10:44.940And what we are witnessing is a war that is being waged through these exact processes against Western civilization itself, against our very way of life.
00:10:54.520And when that realisation hits, that this is not really just about the Jewish state, and in fact, the West is next, then I think that potentially has the prospect of changing some perspectives also, and at least of opening up people's minds away from these false images, these false narratives, and to look into the detail, the facts, the law, which, as you rightly point out, are in this case, very much on Israel's side.
00:11:22.940But have you been able, even in your personal interactions, to document instances where someone was completely on the anti-Israel side and then sent you an email and said, hey, in light of some of the things that you've now put out there and what maybe others have, I've actually come around.
00:11:43.200And I say that because I have faced several of these instances, and it can be incredibly rewarding on a personal level, because otherwise you often think that you're standing on top of the mountain screaming, but no one is listening.
00:11:56.460So tell us a bit about that, if it's relevant to your own life.
00:11:59.840it certainly is relevant um i have people reaching out to me um via various uh means and on social
00:12:07.160media um on a regular basis and and many of them will say um i i was really anti-israel i uh i heard
00:12:16.780what you had to say i started to look into it and this collectively i mean they don't attribute it
00:12:21.780just to to my content but this has um had a real impact on me and i've changed my mind now i don't
00:12:27.520know how anti-Israel they were to start with. I imagine that those that have been entirely
00:12:34.360brainwashed will simply close their ears to anything that seeks to threaten the veracity
00:12:42.180of their convictions. And you see this on a regular basis. There are many, I think, brave
00:12:47.500individuals who've gone into these hate marches with kefir-clad individuals, you know, screaming
00:12:54.000for genocide against the Jews, essentially, globalising the Intifada, calling for the
00:13:01.380area between the river and the sea to be Jew-free. So those individuals never appear, at least
00:13:08.340on these clips, particularly open to discussing their positions, or not least, you know, being
00:13:13.860challenged on them. But on an ad hoc basis, I've certainly been reached out to by many
00:13:20.340individuals over the years of that nature and of course over the much greater period of time
00:13:26.980I've engaged in much longer protracted exchanges of emails in my youth in which it has been I think
00:13:35.460far more possible to change perspectives and once you have you know a personal relationship
00:13:41.360based on respect of another person's perspective and the willingness to listen then real progress
00:13:50.000is possible. But ultimately, I appreciate that's not going to be the case everywhere. In fact,
00:13:55.040it's probably going to be the minority of instances that people are open to hearing the
00:14:00.900other side and to learning from those that are better informed, better educated on these issues
00:14:06.300than they. What I would just add is that the vast majority of the feedback that I get is from people
00:14:15.440that do understand the reality of the position but feel entirely alone and the value that I feel
00:14:23.120is brought by by those of us and I see you as a real leader in this space in speaking up for
00:14:30.260common sense and in you know being the honey badger and in making the case for reasonableness
00:14:37.680for the you know correct application of the facts and against these forces of darkness and
00:14:43.500internationally prescribed terrorist organizations that are seeking to pull the wall over so many
00:14:47.820people's eyes providing that space um sometimes people are referring to it as a safe space right
00:14:53.820but giving people the impression um and the confidence that they are not alone in this
00:14:58.940i think is absolutely invaluable and it's a big driving force behind um you know why i'm
00:15:04.540spending so much time doing this now you go into many forums uh where you debate folks
00:15:11.340let me step back so i often get invited to do some of these debates and i'm hardly someone who
00:15:18.320you know wilts away in fear as you pointed to my honey badgerness but oftentimes i will take
00:15:25.600a very pragmatic decision that given a life of fixed resources my debating someone whether the
00:15:35.140earth is flat or round might not be a good idea because you know they're coming from such a
00:15:40.840ridiculous position that no amount of evidence that I could ever offer them might change their
00:15:44.960opinion. But then you can argue you're not really doing it to debate that person, but you're doing
00:15:49.800it for the audience. So yes, many times I will accept to engage someone who might hold deferring
00:15:57.960positions if I believe that there is even a modicum of possibility that if they were an honest
00:16:04.520interlocutor, I might be able to get them to change one millimeter off their anchored position.
00:16:09.720But in many of the folks that you've been brave in interacting with, I don't think that applies. There's nothing that Natasha is ever going to say that's going to make any difference. I will tend to walk away from those debates, whereas in many cases, maybe to your credit, you walk into them.
00:16:28.020do you think that your approach is always better because no matter what the audience effect is
00:16:34.280there or are there some situations where even Natasha says this person is not worth my time
00:16:39.480to debate um I wouldn't put it quite like that but there are certainly places where I would draw
00:16:45.220the line and have done uh in fact when um essentially individuals who've been involved in
00:16:50.100in terror uh were sprung on me last moment as a debate in Ireland I said no um this isn't
00:16:55.980happening and the organisers ultimately climbed down and we had the debate with an equally you
00:17:02.860know perhaps reprehensible person as far as I was concerned a Hamas supporter but someone who
00:17:08.800happened to be a member of parliament in Ireland and therefore my calculation was well you know
00:17:14.080that's an individual that falls on on the other side of sharing a platform of that line of who
00:17:21.280one ought to share a platform with. So that consideration, I think, is extremely important
00:17:25.740for the platforming aspect of this. But so far as the ability to change minds,
00:17:33.940I have no illusions, Gad, that when I went to debate, you know, Mehdi Hassan and Gideon Levy,
00:17:40.580that I had any prospect of changing their minds. But what I was able to successfully do is prove
00:17:46.540that Mehdi Hassan was a liar in particular in the way that he misrepresented a quote by Arthur
00:17:52.280Balfour or Balfour and now of course you know once a liar the indication and I think from that is
00:18:00.360that it was very difficult for the audience to believe anything else he said and Douglas Murray
00:18:05.200who was my partner in that debate and I won that debate in Toronto was successful in the monk
00:18:10.940debate so I think the opportunity to prove these people wrong to reveal them to be the charlatans
00:18:19.040that they are is an extremely important opportunity to take up and that's why so long as they fall you
00:18:25.860know on that side of that difficult line in terms of legality then I think it is really important
00:18:34.500to engage wherever possible and you know I come from a long history and a tradition of debating
00:18:41.440I was an avid debater at school and university I also coached debating and some may say I now get
00:18:47.660to debate for a living as a member of the bar in England and Wales and I feel very privileged
00:18:53.060to have that opportunity I've always thought that open debate free speech the ability to argue one's
00:19:01.680case, was the best way of getting to the truth of the matter, and the best way of showing up
00:19:08.580the fallacious arguments of the other side. So I generally welcome those opportunities whenever I
00:19:13.860can. Now, you mentioned at the start of your response, you said a member of the Parliament
00:19:19.980in Ireland who's a Hamas supporter. So that pretty much covers everybody in the Irish Parliament,
00:19:25.940except maybe one or two people, am I right?
00:19:29.240I do know one or two people who certainly don't fall in that description,
00:19:33.480and I've certainly had a lot of engagement with Irish politicians,
00:19:36.180not least because of the current sort of resurgence of an attempt
00:19:42.920to pass essentially a BDS law in Ireland.
00:19:48.360And when I last gave evidence to the Irish Parliament
00:19:51.240in one of their committees at their Oireachtas,
00:19:53.900I was specifically asked to address you know the Irish interests as far as this
00:20:01.100law was concerned and I think this is just a useful example of knowing your
00:20:05.900audience because I mean you and I may very well feel that the discrimination
00:20:10.220against the only Jewish state is reprehensible in and of itself it is
00:20:14.960also something that is deeply problematic on the basis of the lies
00:20:18.800that are being told about Israel this is a bill that was being advanced on the
00:20:23.000canards of you know genocide and starvation and indiscriminate killing
00:20:27.440which are so far from the truth and the reality is to frankly be laughable but
00:20:33.320to give you an insight when I spoke to the Parliament my submissions were the
00:20:38.600thrust of my submissions were on you know what impact is this going to have
00:20:42.200on Ireland how this would have breached the European Union law that Ireland was
00:20:47.880subject to how it would have been a violation of Ireland's world treaty
00:20:51.620organisation obligations and what problematic situation it was going to create for US companies
00:21:00.380operating in Ireland as of course now many of them even have their headquarters there
00:21:05.600as a result of that very advantageous tax position that the Irish have created but
00:21:11.720faced with the passing of this law and I'm glad to say that it does seem to have halted at least
00:21:17.620for the time being. Faced with this new legislation, those US companies would have been put in
00:21:24.320an impossible situation, making representations to the Irish government that they were essentially
00:21:30.360discriminating against Israeli companies would have put them in violation of US laws. And
00:21:36.480there are substantial fines that potentially emanate from that. So I think knowing your
00:21:41.280audience and tailoring your arguments to their interests is always going to be critical.
00:21:46.820Well, I mean, to take it in a marketing context, a good salesperson is one that knows how to do exactly what you just said, which is if I'm a car salesman, I see a particular customer come in, I don't always deliver the exact same, you know, key selling point, I will tailor it and hence I've got Machiavellian intelligence.
00:22:09.140A lot of people think that Machiavellian intelligence is always a sinister, nefarious ability, but it need not be applied.
00:22:16.420And it just it just means that you have social intelligence to be able to recognize, as you said, that audience A needs to, you know, see me deliver the message satirically, whereas audience B needs me to be professorial.
00:22:28.880So I hear you. If I were to I'm guessing maybe you're somewhat familiar with my forthcoming book, Suicidal Empathy.
00:22:36.600yes forthcoming so i haven't read it but the the the premises of it i think um i have the hang of
00:22:43.880absolutely okay because i'm i'm curious to see whether i should change my categorization you'll
00:22:49.920see in a second the gist of my question so far i have given the laudable honors of stage five
00:22:57.920suicidal empathy which is above the highest score of stage four as we know from say cancer so the
00:23:05.320unique privilege of stage five suicidal empathy has been reserved you ready drum roll canada
00:23:11.080sweden and norway although we can debate if other ones now i'm thinking that somebody's knocking on
00:23:19.120the stage five category it's called britain should i be updating my membership in stage
00:23:28.020five suicidal empathy for britain if yes why if no why not it's a difficult question
00:23:35.020And it's one that, in fact, even at this conference that we met at was being posed to me in quite problematic terms.
00:23:45.320Ultimately, the question is, is there a way back from where the United Kingdom seems to be heading?
00:23:52.160Now, I don't know if that would be the differential factor between your stage five and your stage four.
00:23:56.880But ultimately, I think that the increasing fear is that we are so far along this road that it becomes increasingly impossible to see a way back from it.
00:24:10.700And by that, the the anti-British, anti-Western forces that really do appear to have taken hold throughout so many different aspects of society.
00:24:22.520You know, certainly government is a very problematic area for this.
00:24:28.800But a lot of that, people argue, is due to demographics and the pitching of various policies to a changing demographic in the United Kingdom.
00:24:42.340I'd just highlight that, you know, the Green Party is slated this weekend to be voting on a resolution that Zionism is racism,
00:24:50.480which is of course reflective of the the worst aspects of efforts at the United Nations
00:24:56.980to ultimately pass a resolution that Zionism was racism which was then undone at least on paper
00:25:07.020even if the sentiment has pervaded and so looking at that trajectory of politics and
00:25:13.580and specifically looking at it through the lens of you know hatred forgive me um hatred of of the
00:25:21.340jews and hatred of the state of israel um then that is something that has been gaining traction
00:25:27.660at such a rate that would probably mandate um you know a category five classification um given the
00:25:36.140company that you cited. There's this big question as to whether the changing nature of politics here
00:25:46.520and the emergence of so many new parties in the United Kingdom could potentially rewrite the
00:25:53.860political map. And in those circumstances, you know, is a change of direction feasible? This
00:26:01.320would have to entail big change. I'm not certain that it is the sort of change that politicians
00:26:08.020can execute without being called, you know, radical and even revolutionary. So I completely
00:26:16.980understand how there is every argument to bump the UK up. But I'll wait for your book and to see
00:26:24.900how it is that you have ultimately classified the UK and whether in your estimation, there's still
00:26:30.160much hope uh for the place that i call home look the small hope that i see and you you'll you'll
00:26:36.200correct me if maybe i'm being too optimistic but sometimes one needs to be optimistic otherwise
00:26:40.340there's no point in getting out of bed uh there are a few quote agents of change that are coming
00:26:46.160up in britain and maybe i'll ask you to give me a sense of how how likely they are to implement
00:26:52.420the necessary auto corrections so of course we've got rupert uh low right is that how you pronounce
00:26:57.920at Rupert Lowe. There is, I mean, maybe slightly to the periphery, but there's Ben Habib,
00:27:03.820right? There is Nigel Farage, and maybe I'm not thinking of other ones. Would those types
00:27:11.060and their ilk have the testicular fortitude to be able to implement some of these necessary
00:27:18.520auto-corrections, or do you think they're too vanilla to be able to actually pull it off?
00:27:23.660So that's one of my favourite phrases of yours. And I think it's an apt question. You've named, you know, quite controversial characters within the British political system. And I think that many people are yearning for, you know, the yesteryear, the Churchills and the Margaret Thatchers, who were able to inspire a degree of confidence.
00:27:49.520I would suggest, I know neither of them were universally liked, but I would suggest perhaps with a degree of less of the controversy, ultimately, until I think I have a clearer understanding of what practically can be done to change the trajectory here in the United Kingdom,
00:28:12.700I think it's very difficult to assess whether any political figure would have the ability to implement that, even if they have the will.
00:28:22.800And as you say, the testicular fortitude, the big question is, well, what are the mechanisms within the British political system?
00:28:31.020The levers, how does the civil service factor into the limitations on what it is that politicians are able to deliver?
00:28:39.380and all of this is necessarily also impacted by the changing nature of society and institutions
00:28:48.800here in the United Kingdom there are so many people that have been voicing their concern of
00:28:53.880being able to trust you know the police after so many scandals the civil service the education
00:29:00.500system and then of course the politicians so I don't pretend to have the answers and happily
00:29:06.680actually, not being a politician myself, but just being a barrister, I can perhaps get away
00:29:12.720with just, you know, highlighting the questions here and avoiding providing any prophecies or
00:29:18.580answers. You mentioned the Iron Lady, a strong female figure. You currently have another
00:29:24.440female leader, Lady Keir Starmer. Do you wish to comment at all about her ability to lead Britain?
00:29:34.060i actually thought you were you were referring to uh sir kia's wife but um
00:29:41.260now it's my german heritage again it means that my sense of humor is still somewhat underdeveloped
00:29:50.340before before you answer it let me tell you a story about germany so um so i i was invited
00:29:55.780it was a big honor in 2001 to spend a mini visit at the Max Planck Institute, which is
00:30:03.220this very she-she sort of academic institution. And there are different ones throughout Germany.
00:30:09.960The one that I was invited to was in Berlin. It was headed at the time by a German psychologist,
00:30:16.780I think he's retired now, named Gerd Gigerenzer. And I was giving some very serious academic talks.
00:30:21.780but true to my nature you know i threw in a couple of jokes nothing zero like literally
00:30:29.340complete you hear and so right away i said oh my apologies i wasn't aware that i was in germany
00:30:35.740and i i just pivoted because true to the stereotype i think they were missing the humor
00:30:41.880bone but take it away go on so sir kia who uh who struggles with the difference between offensive
00:30:48.060and defensive military action and isn't able to answer the question as to whether, you know,
00:30:53.500strikes on missile launches versus strikes on people launching the missiles. I mean, we have
00:31:01.880unfortunately, I think, become somewhat of a laughingstock, in particular over the last few
00:31:06.720weeks as a result of this indecision. And I was listening to the radio only earlier today,
00:31:12.120And our Defence Secretary couldn't answer how many frigates and other vessels we had deployable in the Royal Navy.
00:31:21.520So, I mean, there is a great deal that is left to be desired, unfortunately, by this government as a whole.
00:31:30.000But ultimately, the buck stops with the Prime Minister.
00:31:32.980And there are many that have been suggesting that he is not long for the role.
00:31:37.780the damage though and the impact on the reputation of the United Kingdom internationally
00:31:45.000is extremely potent I don't think it's something that can simply be swept away with a change of
00:31:53.680prime minister or even a change of government and in terms of relationships with other key
00:31:57.860allies and importantly the United States I mean that that has clearly suffered some damage I'm
00:32:04.180not sure if you saw um president trump i believe you know retweeting or posting on truth social the
00:32:10.240um the um saturday night live skit uh no i didn't no right uh well uh look lady thatcher was also
00:32:18.200routinely made fun of uh on uh you know spitting image and the like uh during her premiership but
00:32:23.840of course um it never quite hit home so much as it does with sir keir starmer because it is so
00:32:31.080reflective of the reality. And that is the, you know, real devastating aspect for anyone who I
00:32:37.100think, you know, is British at the moment. But we'll have to wait and wait and see how long he
00:32:43.540lasts. I don't believe he can undo the damage that has already been brought. And so much of it,
00:32:51.140so much of it is so completely contrary to everything that this Prime Minister
00:32:56.120presents himself as standing for. This is another fellow barrister, a member of the bar,
00:33:02.140who has professed his dedication to international law and human rights along with
00:33:07.020the Attorney General, Richard Hermer. And together, they have thrown international law
00:33:14.960out of the window on successive occasions in pursuing what strikes me as a rather fanatical
00:33:22.040policy against Israel in particular and against British and Western interests more broadly.
00:33:28.880You know, one relatively recent example was this laughable recognition of a non-existent
00:33:34.760state of Palestine, which was in the first instance announced as a conditional recognition
00:33:40.760and was then later clarified as simply an aspirational recognition.
00:33:45.480And I say that in particular because the UN Security Council resolution, which essentially
00:33:50.900codified the Trump peace plan and makes it perfectly clear that Palestinian self-determination
00:33:56.700in the form of a state is an if, but, maybe, when matter as opposed to one that can in fact be
00:34:04.000driven forward to in the immediate or foreseeable future. The United Kingdom endorsed that UN
00:34:12.340Security Council resolution and thereby made it perfectly plain that there is no such thing
00:36:01.360Or is this something where you have to eradicate it and start fresh,
00:36:05.580sort of like Trump's idea of starting the peace board or whatever it's called?
00:36:10.380or is there hope that it can be re you know fixed there isn't hope for the united nations and i'll
00:36:19.900explain why but may i just also say that i think hillel noyer is an absolute inspiration and he
00:36:24.840actually really recently hosted me to speak at the un council where i was able to say in you know
00:36:34.180pretty clear terms, what they were doing was extremely destructive to the principles and
00:36:42.780purposes that this council was set up to achieve. I was thereafter reprimanded for the language that
00:36:49.460I used. And I'd encourage you and perhaps others to perhaps review that clip and let me know by
00:36:57.420carrier pigeon or email if any of the language that I deployed there was in any way inappropriate.
00:37:04.540But I thought their response, which was clearly pre-prepared, was very, very telling. And the
00:37:10.280reason that I say that there is no hope for these institutions is because they are rotten to the
00:37:16.560core, as Hillel and his organisation are demonstrating on, frankly, a weekly basis.
00:37:22.260but I have seen so many manifestations of this over the years and I have seen it worsening
00:37:27.640and it is broader than just the United Nations there is an infrastructure an ecosystem of NGOs
00:37:34.280that have been subject to this broader takeover and one feeds the other so I'll give you an example
00:37:40.860I was invited to Oslo and to Copenhagen to debate with Amnesty International specifically about
00:37:48.800their report alleging genocide in Gaza that Israel had committed this crime of crimes now I went
00:37:56.720along to each of these events and it was perfectly plain to me that the two individuals who'd been
00:38:02.020put up by the organization to debate against me hadn't even read the report but what they had
00:38:08.060also clearly missed was the methodology section which made it perfectly clear that Amnesty
00:38:13.640International did not have people on the ground in Gaza. They instead relied on what they called
00:38:19.160local government authorities, Hamas. So they would take Hamas propaganda, stick it into a document
00:38:26.580headed up with their logo, Amnesty International, and they'd send it out into the ether.
00:38:31.300And that in turn gets picked up by Francesca Albanese, who I'm sure you'll be familiar with
00:38:36.680through the work of Hillel Noyer, if nothing else, through, it gets quoted in the UN Human Rights
00:38:41.820Council, the Commission of Inquiry that put out a report alleging genocide more or less copied and
00:38:48.120pasted the amnesty report. It got cycled up into, you know, UN General Assembly resolutions, and then
00:38:54.220it will get cited by the International Court of Justice. And at that point, amnesty will point
00:38:59.320and say, see, the ICJ says so. And that cycle of disinformation is then complete when amnesty and
00:39:07.420others cite the International Court of Justice, you know, finding entirely erroneously. There are
00:39:14.740many misrepresentations even of ICJ provisional measures order, orders that are said to say
00:39:20.360things that they certainly do not say. That's been another battle in and of itself. But what
00:39:25.220we have seen through this cyclical process of laundering the propaganda of internationally
00:39:31.780prescribed terrorist organisations is that it becomes you know wholesale accepted within these
00:39:37.620hallowed corridors within the intellectual liberal elite it's also of course parroted by the likes of
00:39:43.640the BBC and other supposedly or at least once respected broadcasters and so in that vein
00:39:51.780somewhat perhaps akin to my pessimism about British politics I simply cannot see how it can
00:39:58.060be saved. And if we're talking about the United Nations more broadly, I also don't see the purpose
00:40:04.680of the vast majority of the mechanisms with which we are familiar at the United Nations. Having a
00:40:10.280place where the countries of the world are able to meet and converse, and I warrant that the vast
00:40:16.460majority of the important exchanges happen in the corridors, nothing of note ever gets said in the
00:40:22.880chambers of this particular organisation. But the notion that there would need to be a vote
00:40:29.040on anything in this organisation, in this body, is frankly laughable. And that is exacerbated
00:40:36.740further when one looks at the nature of the countries leading the vast majority of these
00:40:44.100laughable votes. And when you think that these despots and dictatorships have each one of them
00:40:51.440the same voice as you know the whole of germany or the whole of canada um it does become i think
00:40:57.040very difficult to justify the continued existence of the united nations people are you know saying
00:41:03.420to us oh well you know the un does good on this particular program or that particular program
00:41:08.240and there may very well be merit we have advocated for um you know a commission um a congressional
00:41:15.620commission from the united states to investigate root and branch into the united nations and work
00:41:21.280out what good there may still be what might be worthy of saving but also to really shed a light
00:41:29.600on the rotten core that has so abjectly abandoned its founding principles and has been the key
00:41:37.960driving force behind so much racism so much of the targeting of the vulnerable around the world
00:41:44.420there have been a number of whistleblowers who have who have shed light on on that and in
00:41:50.940particular of course the driving force of of the modern manifestation of anti-semitism which is
00:41:57.260this buzzword you mentioned pretty much at the outset anti-zionism do you earlier i mentioned
00:42:04.080whether there was any hope of any auto corrections in britain could there be any mechanisms i mean i
00:42:11.700know you said that it's it's rotten to the core and it's dead so if that's the case and we abandon
00:42:15.840that project it is there in your vision some alternate international and maybe you're not
00:42:21.800ready to to answer this question but is there some vision of an international body where there
00:42:27.500could be the proper guardrails against the degeneracy that the united nations has gone down
00:42:34.540or whenever you're going to have such a large international body where there are many bad faith
00:42:40.780actors, it is doomed before we even begin the project? Well, perhaps several years ago,
00:42:46.900as a sort of vision or a half-baked notion, I might have said, well, the notion of a league
00:42:52.000of democracies strikes a far better potential tone than the farce that we have seen playing
00:43:01.180out at the United Nations. At least then you have a collection of countries with a shared
00:43:06.960moral compass and shared basis of government that is predicated on not just democratic
00:43:15.880representation, but belief in real human rights and equality between peoples. But then look at
00:43:23.060the state of so many of the democracies that I know you and I cherish. Look at the trajectory
00:43:29.560that they're on. I don't know that my earlier ideas and aspirations to some form of organization
00:43:39.580along those lines would fare that much better, given what we have seen. I know you speak a lot
00:43:48.000about the wokification of various aspects of human engagement. But of course, what we have
00:43:55.620seen on the international plane is deeply, deeply worrying. And the impact that that is having on
00:44:02.780Western liberal democratic nations is equally troubling.
00:44:09.000Do you think, so in my Jerusalem keynote address, where we met for the first time in person,
00:44:16.880I used the shingles virus analogy to sort of talk about how, you know, for, and I mean, I know you're
00:44:24.180aware of this, but let me mention for our viewers, the shingles virus is something that lays dormant
00:44:28.780in you for many, many decades. And then depending on particular triggers, it can flare up in your
00:44:35.16050s and your 60s, and it could cause a really painful situation. And I analogized that virus,
00:44:41.640that latent dormant virus to Jew hatred in that, yes, you can go through periods as we did for
00:44:48.420many decades in the West, where it really seemed like, oh, maybe Jew hatred is in the rear view
00:44:54.140mirror but oops guess what here comes the shingles virus and we're back to the carnival of
00:45:00.300Jew hatred do you think that that somehow is an indelible feature of the dark heart of human
00:45:10.040reality that we have to have a scapegoat that we hate and for various reasons the Jew is the one
00:45:17.040that is most easily accessible and so therefore we're always going to have this dormant and then
00:45:23.580flare up with Jew hatred or to use sort of my terminology is there a vaccine that could be
00:45:31.800administered in some form in some institution whereby you and I or our children in the future
00:45:38.280could look back at the ugly days of the black plague of Jew hatred and it no longer exists
00:45:43.820so I was fascinated by the the shingles analogy um but I I will be always always honest with you
00:45:52.820And I think for my part, the best understanding of antisemitism that I have achieved, the oldest hatred, of course, has been through the explanation by the late great rabbi, Lord Jonathan Sachs, former chief rabbi of the United Kingdom, who talked about antisemitism as a mutating virus.
00:46:15.720one that perhaps began in the middle ages with a focus on Jews as a religion because religion was
00:46:21.500the order of the day mutated in the 20th century to focus on Jews as a race because science took
00:46:28.020over from religion and in fact the Nazis used eugenics to justify a hatred of the Jewish race
00:46:33.100but that today or at least before he died Rabbi Sachs had identified that the hatred of the Jews
00:46:41.380had mutated once again and in fact now manifested itself against the Jewish state because international
00:46:47.760law and human rights were the order of the day, even taking over from religion and then
00:46:52.680science. And it was therefore through those mechanisms of international law and human
00:46:56.840rights that Jew hatred manifested itself in the form, and this may very well be my own
00:47:02.200addition, but in the form as I see it as the modern blood liables of occupation, ethnic
00:47:08.000cleansing, colonialism, apartheid, genocide, war crimes. All of these are total inversions.
00:47:15.420They are false. They are the modern blood liables, but they are all using legal terminology.
00:47:21.800And in that sense, and with that analogy, if you will, of mutating virus rather than
00:47:27.220the shingles flare up, I think there is an important distinction which suggests that,
00:47:35.600in fact anti-semitism has always been there it is perhaps been you know more latent but only
00:47:42.960necessarily in in the parts of the world in which we're lucky enough to live you know there are many
00:47:48.000parts of the world where it has still been going strong and and has never let up but the idea that
00:47:56.860it has now taken on this different form is what has enabled so many people to embrace it
00:48:03.580more full-throatedly because it is something that appeals to the intellectual liberal elite and
00:48:09.140because it has become this virtue signaling badge of honor it is of course been in parallel with
00:48:17.020these sorts of divisions that we have seen throughout society you know you're either with
00:48:21.100us or you're against us there's no middle ground pick a side and all of that I think perhaps better
00:48:27.720explains where we are but also the importance of pushing back against it. There's also I think
00:48:35.260and you will have to educate me on this but but certainly a psychological trait here in terms of
00:48:41.580the allegations that are being deployed in terms of the use of these modern blood labels because
00:48:46.280in each and every instance I see them as a form of projection. In each and every instance the Jews
00:48:54.040here, Jews in Israel in particular, are being accused of the very crimes that were committed
00:48:59.740against them. And perhaps the most significant manifestation of this is with this abhorrent
00:49:05.860canard of genocide, because this was a term that was coined in response to the Jewish experience
00:49:11.140in the Holocaust to provide legal terminology to that experience of being targeted for extermination
00:49:17.360because they were Jewish. And it was Raphael Lemkin, a Jewish jurist, who came up with the
00:49:21.920term for that purpose but then noting that experience in the holocaust and then also
00:49:26.320noting what happened on the 7th of october which was again acts of genocide being perpetrated
00:49:31.520against jews because they were jews and then seeing that projection of the victims of those
00:49:37.320those crimes and that crime in particular being accused of committing that very same crime we see
00:49:43.580that across you know allegations of apartheid of colonialism noting of course that you know jews
00:49:49.260are indigenous to Judea and of every other crime that Jews in Israel in particular are now accused
00:49:59.140of, you dig deep enough, you will see evidence that this is what was done to them. And that is
00:50:08.740a fact. It's not something I can explain. It's not something I confess I quite understand as to the
00:50:15.300origins of it. But that psychological phenomenon of projection, I think, is extremely potent
00:50:21.920in understanding this modern manifestation of anti-Semitism that we are witnessing.
00:50:28.900The projection part, I think you're exactly right. And by the way, the mutating virus analogy
00:50:35.020is actually more pessimistic than I had hoped, because it basically says that the evolutionary
00:50:41.480arms race will always be there, because as you come up with an inoculation against this
00:50:47.080current instantiation of Jew hatred, oops, it mutates, and now you have to adjust.
00:50:52.220And so if that rabbi in question is correct, then this will be a persistent hatred throughout
00:51:02.540the rest of time, which is not a good thing.
00:51:05.660But I can offer, if you'd like, a psychological explanation, which I can't remember if I
00:51:09.840mentioned it in Jerusalem. So if I have, forgive me for repeating it, but certainly for our
00:51:14.620audience that wasn't in Jerusalem, it might be worthwhile to mention here. So there is something
00:51:20.820in psychology called the self-serving bias, right? Attribute successes internally. I think I
00:51:26.660mentioned that in Jerusalem. Attribute successes internally, attribute failures externally. And
00:51:31.320most people throughout the world do that because to use a psychoanalytic term, you use the term
00:51:37.160projection, but to use another psychoanalytic term, it's an ego defensive strategy. Life is
00:51:41.540very complicated. And it makes sense for me to attribute that I did well on the exam because
00:51:46.220I'm smart. And if I did poorly on the exam, it's because the professor is an imbecile who's unfair,
00:51:51.440right? And it allows me to kind of maintain the structure of my personhood. Now, imagine if I
00:51:57.720could find a culprit for all of my individual and collective failures, and it's the Jew. So if my
00:52:05.440society is failing, well, it's because of the Jew. It's because of Zionism. Even though there's
00:52:11.020absolutely no causal mechanism that any rational person could ever come up with why Libya is
00:52:17.020failing, but it must be somehow related to the existence of Israel. And at the individual level,
00:52:23.160if I am Ahmad and my wife cheated on me, well, she probably got that idea through, you know,
00:52:29.680consuming porn and that's what drove her libidinal desires to go with the gardener and ultimately who
00:52:36.220who are the porn creators and the porn peddlers well it's obviously the jews and so to the extent
00:52:41.320that my wife fatima cheated on me i can always link it back to the jew if it rained it's a jew
00:52:46.200if it's sunny it's the jew now the question i know that you're giving um what might be interpreted
00:52:51.340to be extreme examples but i have read an ngo report that attributed palestinian men beating
00:52:57.600their wives uh the responsibility for that was on israel i know that i don't know that report
00:53:02.480you're exactly right well i've got a worse one how about the sherman sheikh attack of sharks
00:53:07.780on tourists yeah that was due to zionist jewish sharks that were trained by the sharks yeah
00:53:13.820absolutely so but okay but just to finish that explanation so sure so okay so self-serving
00:53:19.160bias successes internally failures externally but why should we blame the jew throughout all
00:53:25.340periods and in different cultural ecosystems? Well, because there's one commonality, and that
00:53:30.820is, I mean, Amy Chua, the Yale lawyer, actually, law professor, calls it market-dominant minorities,
00:53:39.100right? So this is when you have a small group in various cultural ecosystem that is really
00:53:43.960punching above its weight class. Now, the Jews are not the only ones that that description applies
00:53:50.140to, but certainly wherever you find Jews as a minuscule diaspora, they tend to be the top
00:53:59.180lawyers and the top physicians and the top professors and the top this and the top that.
00:54:04.420Well, if I'm failing and I'm not part of that group, those assholes are demonic. And so it
00:54:11.080becomes a very accessible way for me to be able to swallow both my individual and collective
00:54:16.900failures. I didn't here invoke any theological reasons, which of course also exists for Jew
00:54:23.440hatred, but just at the basic psychological, the architecture of the human mind is really well
00:54:30.560honed to latch onto the Jew. What do you think of that explanation? I think it works absolutely
00:54:38.000in parallel with all the other manifestations of it, and it creates a rather perfect storm,
00:54:43.820doesn't it? And you see that, of course, perhaps even magnified by the success of the Jewish state
00:54:50.960against all of the odds. And so many people can't possibly understand how it is that Israel has
00:54:59.200been able to survive, despite essentially facing existential threats and wars of annihilation
00:55:04.900against it from its very creation. I did hear, and I'm now going to forget terribly the name of the,
00:55:12.200Oh, no, Micha Goodman. Micha Goodman, an Israeli philosopher. I heard a clip of his a couple of days ago, which I thought was absolutely fascinating, explaining the remarkable success of Israel on the battlefield and comparing the focus on individualism versus the collectivist approach.
00:55:37.260And traditionally, it's been said that strengths in the battlefield will very much be a question of will over capability.
00:55:47.200I've also heard that from many military experts over the years who will say that the morale of an army is critical so much more so than many other factors, including numbers, capabilities, technological advancement.
00:56:02.120Morale and will I saw as somewhat interchangeable with respect to Micha Goodman's analysis.
00:56:10.000But the remarkable thing about the state of Israel is that it is unique in having been able to marry the culture of individualism,
00:56:20.720which has driven military and technological developments and, of course, economic thriving in such a powerful fashion.
00:56:31.320but it has not been at the expense of the collective cultural approach and that really
00:56:40.280resonated with me because it suggested to me that what is unique that I have witnessed
00:56:47.360amongst Israelis and in terms of the culture in Israel is that very deeply held sense of purpose
00:56:54.020which is perhaps also interchangeable with the morale and the will that was variously referred
00:57:00.280to in in similar regards and it is that sense of purpose which so increasingly seems to set
00:57:07.320Israel out apart from so many of the other individualist societies which have done you
00:57:15.880know phenomenally well but but in so many respects seem to be losing their way so that was perhaps
00:57:22.840just you know an add-on and of course when one sees such phenomenal success absent professor
00:57:29.960Goodman's ability to explain the phenomenon, then it certainly feeds into the mentality
00:57:37.200that you're describing of resentment and blame.
00:57:40.660And to add to your add-on, I would say that the fact that Israelis have that sense of
00:57:46.120purpose might explain why Israel scores quite highly on the happiness index.
00:57:52.620Because a fundamental feature when I wake up in the morning is if I kind of rub my hands
00:57:58.340in gleeful anticipation for the looming day, because I've got purpose and meaning, well,
00:58:04.180that's already getting me halfway to climbing, you know, Mount Happiness, right? And so that
00:58:09.340might explain some of the happiness that Israelis feel, despite the fact that they live in a
00:58:14.420dangerous neighborhood. If you were gracious enough to say that you can go a bit longer,
00:58:18.020can I ask you a few more questions that are a bit more, I mean, not personal in an intimate
00:58:22.460a sense, but that are more sort of Natasha specific rather than the international law
00:58:28.620expert. Do you permit me to do that? Only because it's you, Gad.
00:58:32.360Well, aren't you sweet? Okay. So you may or may not know when I'm not fighting for justice and
00:58:39.880defending truth and writing papers in evolutionary psychology, what I like to do is,
00:58:45.320you know, I love soccer. I'm a voracious reader, not unlike the library that you have behind you.
00:58:51.000I love to collect books. I am a hopeless pathological book collector. One of my biggest
00:58:57.040angst in life is that I haven't read many of the books that are in my personal library and I
00:59:02.360worry that I'm running out of time, God forbid. What are some of the things that would allow our
00:59:08.200listeners and viewers to know a bit more about Natasha that you'd like to share? Some of the
00:59:13.480non-legal honey badger stuff that keep you awake with excitement well i i mentioned uh already my
00:59:22.200love of debating and that really has been a big factor throughout my my student life and it it
00:59:27.440also took me around the world um for competitions and introduced me to the most incredible group
00:59:33.500of people friends that i have from my debating days who have gone off into all sorts of different
00:59:39.400walks of life and being phenomenally impressive each in their own way. Before the last few years
00:59:47.440I would have described myself as a bit of a film buff, absolutely loved good films and thought that
00:59:53.720the medium was such an impressive contribution to culture, to societal critique. I have always
01:00:04.860enjoyed reading but I think my legal practice sort of ate into that some to some extent you
01:00:11.540know when you're when you're reading legal briefs all day that the notion of sitting down with
01:00:16.520anything other than perhaps a newspaper is a little bit less enticing but I have to to come
01:00:26.280clean and be honest with you that in the last few years especially you know the demands on my time
01:00:32.660which I'm extremely grateful to have because of that sense of purpose
01:00:37.260that I feel extremely blessed and privileged to hold.
01:00:42.600But really the demands of my time nowadays mean that films are perhaps few and far between
01:00:47.620and spending time with family takes priority and perhaps a more active sense and getting outdoors.
01:00:55.920But really over the last 25 years, the sense of purpose that you've also described
01:01:02.640has been a gift. Working in the service of something that is bigger than you
01:01:09.200is an extremely special gift to have. It gives me energy in a way that, you know, my day job has
01:01:18.400always perhaps taken energy away from me. And I look around at so many friends and colleagues
01:01:24.000that don't have that additional part, you know, of their life that is so much bigger than them
01:02:26.780is because good literature consists of a few evolutionary-based narratives that exactly
01:02:36.140appeal to what you and I as Darwinian beings expect. It's about paternity uncertainty. It's
01:02:42.580about sexual longing. It's about sibling rivalry. So the stuff of literature is basically a canvas
01:02:48.980to display human nature as is good filmmaking, right? So the reason why I watched this film
01:02:55.220and then I could literally tear up despite the fact that there is no reason for me to be caring
01:03:00.720about this projected person on the screen is because it is literally pulling at these evolutionary
01:03:06.420based strings in my heart and mind. So I completely agree with you with your love for films. Last
01:03:13.260question. And then anything else that you want to plug or promote will be the last thing we talk
01:03:17.940about. So this is a question that has become sort of a tradition that I ask. It started from this.
01:03:23.400So in this book, in the happiness book, one of the later chapters I talk about, you know, if you can live life in such a way that when you sit on the proverbial porch and look back at your life when you're 85 and you have as few regrets as possible, then you've probably done things properly.
01:03:41.420so with that in mind there are two types of regrets that most people worry about and actually
01:03:48.060the one of the pioneers of studying the psychology of regrets was one of my former professors in my
01:03:53.260phd there is regrets due to action i regret that i cheated on my wife and then we're divorced
01:04:00.160versus regret due to inaction i ended up becoming a lawyer because my dad was a lawyer and his dad
01:04:06.100was a lawyer but in reality i wanted to be an architect so it's the i regret the the road that
01:04:11.200i didn't take and it turns out maybe it doesn't surprise you natasha that the the thing that
01:04:15.820people regret the most is the regret due to inaction uh now having said that you're still
01:04:23.500a very young woman there's still a lot more runway ahead of you than behind you if i were to ask you
01:04:28.860right now are there any looming regrets and are you willing to share any take it away natasha
01:04:34.960I don't want to sound soppy about it but and and you know I am still relatively young so they may
01:04:42.160still come um but at this junction no and I nothing well I'll tell you what would have been
01:04:50.160a major regret if I had listened to so many people who after the 7th of October said to me
01:04:55.780best to keep your mouth shut about these issues um that would have been a regret I would have
01:05:02.180found extremely difficult to live with. And in fact, you know, in a previous career,
01:05:07.520I was very limited in my ability to speak out. One of the great privileges alongside this sense
01:05:14.300of purpose is being an independent practitioner at the English Bar and, you know, not having a boss
01:05:20.080and therefore being able to, you know, use, I suppose, the platform of being a lawyer
01:05:26.820to call out these falsehoods and lots of people have sort of questioned me on it and said well
01:05:34.380you know do you regret perhaps becoming somewhat infamous or notorious and categorically I can say
01:05:42.260it is the other way around and we spoke a little bit about you know feedback from people but the
01:05:47.980more I hear from people who say how meaningful and how impactful just hearing somebody you know
01:05:55.480speaking sense on on these issues especially on international law because so few if any people
01:05:59.740seem to be prepared to call out the falsehoods on it um i can say that that would have been
01:06:06.540probably the biggest regret of my life and i am counting my blessings every day that um i didn't
01:06:13.140even countenance it i think um a commitment and i you know i'm gonna get really soppy now and
01:06:19.200probably credit my parents with you know an upbringing and incredible educational opportunities
01:06:23.580and that sense of purpose and duty but and at the risk of sounding old-fashioned here
01:06:29.980that has given me such a drive a passion a sense of energy to to to make these decisions and to
01:06:39.420not even in some respect you know think twice about them and a commitment to to speaking up
01:06:45.540for the truth and and real international law is part and parcel of that so maybe we need to
01:06:51.920regroup in a decade or two and you can ask me the question again uh because you know famously
01:06:57.100what you see from here you don't see from there but um no i i count myself extremely blessed to
01:07:03.940say um you know unless we're talking about i wish i wouldn't have eaten that cupcake no no i meant
01:07:10.140big existential we're talking about big existential things no touch wood um you know so far so good
01:07:16.280wonderful and by the way the fact that you you you gave a shout out to your parents
01:07:20.540it's hardly sloppy I think you know I you know I think you met like you did meet my children
01:07:25.820and one of one of my most uh proud moments and and I've mentioned this before but it's worth
01:07:32.100repeating was when my daughter was 12 years old and I had just given this you know big speech in
01:07:38.460front of I don't know maybe 1500 people and it was you know very well received and as I walked
01:07:42.920off stage and you know my my family was sitting there in the in the first row my daughter came
01:07:47.960up to me, hugged me, and she said, I'm so proud of you. Well, I actually cared about that sentence
01:07:53.080more than I do when some fancy schmancy colleague from Stanford says, oh, I love your work.
01:07:59.520That's, you know, that's fine. But for your daughter, your soon to be then teenage daughter
01:08:05.340to say she's proud of you. So I think if your parents end up listening to this, they'll be
01:08:09.580very, very happy. On that point, I absolutely have to tell you that when they recently told
01:08:15.520me that they were proud of me it was for the invitation to appear on your show oh
01:08:19.520please say hello to them uh last question i'm very touched by that thank you uh anything that
01:08:27.800you want to promote oh natasha's working on the on her book she's doing this is your time to plug
01:08:34.960yeah that is a little way off because there aren't enough hours in the day um but but hopefully it
01:08:40.900will ultimately one day be forthcoming.
01:08:42.620I think the only plug that I can make,