The Saad Truth with Dr. Saad - Natasha Hausdorff, Ardent Legal Defender of Israel (The Saad Truth with Dr. Saad_979)

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00:01:05.720 Hi, everybody. This is Ghat Saad. I am very, very delighted today to have another fantastic guest,

00:01:11.860 a lawyer from Britain. Don't send me emails saying that she has a much sexier voice than I have. 1.00

00:01:18.640 that will offend me we've got natasha hausdorf how are you doing i'm extremely well wonderful

00:01:25.360 to be with you guys and i'm sorry that i have the advantage of the uh british accent that's it as

00:01:30.700 soon as you see the british accent you're already smarter uh all right let me just for the for the

00:01:36.160 people who may not know who you are you're a british barrister international law expert you're

00:01:41.760 the legal director of uk lawyers for israel charitable trust you've clerked for the president

00:01:47.380 of the Supreme Court of Israel, which is quite befitting in that I recently had someone,

00:01:52.900 a mutual friend, I guess we could say now, Yonatan Green, who wrote a big academic tome

00:01:58.440 about the Israeli Supreme Court. And of course, perhaps you've become most known for using your

00:02:04.500 legal expertise to ardently defend Israel. Anything else you want to add to that bio

00:02:10.400 before we delve into all the discussions we want to talk about?

00:02:13.160 Well, thank you. That's extremely kind. I would perhaps only say that I've certainly seen my role more as seeking to defend international law and the proper application of it and the rule of law.

00:02:25.560 The fact that it is interpreted as coming to the defense of Israel, I think, really speaks volumes about the challenges that we're facing in this particular subject.

00:02:35.940 Indeed. In a sense, I was hoping to start light, but you kind of delved into that. But I wanted to tell a story, which I asked for your permission before we got on air. We met for the first time in Israel, in Jerusalem, at the Jew-hating global anti-Semitism conference.

00:02:57.180 uh anti-anti-semitism conference anti-anti-semitism conference it's funny because a couple of days

00:03:03.920 ago i was telling my publicist that i was going to speak at an anti-zionism conference and then

00:03:10.540 she wrote back and she said anti-zionism question mark i meant no critical of anti-zionism she got

00:03:16.480 woof anyways uh so we were sitting at the table having this wonderful conversation and sort of

00:03:21.760 of course i'm somebody who studies human mating preferences and we got to talking about

00:03:26.660 what might be some typical mating attributes that different people like and you said well you know

00:03:31.760 i sort of have a predilection to you know nerdy guys to which my 14 year old son looked at you

00:03:39.280 and said you know i'm pretty nerdy myself pretty impressive for a 14 year old to to box way above

00:03:46.020 his weight class no well clearly the apple doesn't fall far from the tree well you're very kind i've

00:03:52.220 taught him well all right so now let's get down to some serious stuff how did so first maybe you

00:03:57.300 could tell us about what what is your sort of your main legal expertise what does it mean to be

00:04:03.420 an international law expert and i ask this because i know many either students of law i i introduced

00:04:11.200 you to one off air who wishes to be a lawyer so tell us what does it mean to be an international

00:04:16.160 law expert uh well certainly that's the way uh that i have been increasingly described as i've

00:04:22.120 been doing media. My practice, as is the case for many English barristers, is very much broader than

00:04:29.240 that. So I'm in a mixed common law set of chambers, and I do everything from civil, commercial,

00:04:35.900 regulatory work, and then certainly some international arbitration and public international

00:04:40.800 law. And it was public international law and specifically the law of armed conflict that was

00:04:45.560 my academic background. There isn't that much opportunity, you know, in the broad spectrum of

00:04:51.680 practicing law. For the practice of international law, I'm sure you'll appreciate that the nature

00:04:57.700 of state to state disputes is, of course, far narrower than the random disputes that you will

00:05:05.520 no doubt encounter in domestic courts. So it really has been over the last few years in particular

00:05:11.920 that I decided to draw back on a lot of what I had previously shut the door on, namely my academic

00:05:20.560 focus on the law of armed conflict, on national security matters. And part of that was a response

00:05:28.020 to what I saw as the wholesale misrepresentation of so much of this law. And I think the reason

00:05:35.860 that that has been so successful, this misrepresentation, weaponization, inversion,

00:05:41.640 even abuse of international law, is because, you know, general levels of literacy on international

00:05:47.940 law are not particularly high. And so when you are presented with these sorts of allegations

00:05:52.940 that X, Y, Z is illegal under international law, most people will accept that. They will

00:05:59.400 go along with it. And one of my primary focuses now in my role with UK Lawyers for Israel

00:06:05.080 is really educational and focusing on public education, on international law, liaising

00:06:11.780 also, of course, with politicians, decision makers, engaging with academics. But really

00:06:16.920 that educational aspect of spreading awareness of what real international law is, has become

00:06:24.320 very much more prominent alongside my practice. So, you know, as I'm hearing you speak about,

00:06:30.440 you know, correcting some of the misconceptions that people might have regarding a particular

00:06:34.580 international legal treaties, I'm thinking about, as a psychologist, as someone who studies, you

00:06:41.340 know, what are the optimal persuasion strategies to use in different contexts, right? And so,

00:06:46.920 In my own personal engagement with the public, I can be very professorial or I can be very satirical and I'm mocking something.

00:06:54.820 I'm actually acting like a, quote, buffoon because I actually think that that is the optimal strategy to explain some lunacy.

00:07:03.760 having said all that one of the ways that we typically create a taxonomy of persuasion

00:07:09.860 strategies is are you going to invoke someone's cognitive system their thinking versus their

00:07:16.520 affective system so cognitive would be here are the seven reasons why you should purchase

00:07:21.340 my mutual front my mutual fund affective would be here's the reason why you should have this

00:07:28.520 perfume, right? One is triggering your emotions, your hedonic, you know, aesthetics. So in the

00:07:36.520 context of legal persuasion, I wonder if in a sense, it's a misapplication to the problem in

00:07:44.060 that you may come along with all of the absolute veridical positions, whereas my position that

00:07:51.240 Israel should not exist is not going to be countered by any of your, you know, brilliant 1.00

00:07:56.620 legal analyses it's an emotional position i have so do you see that there is this misalignment

00:08:02.060 between all of the you know powerful historical and legal facts that are on your side and what

00:08:08.420 the other side wants to hear which is la la la i don't want to hear what natasha has to say

00:08:12.280 oh 100 and that's made um even more problematic when you consider some of the tactics that are

00:08:19.160 used by that you know other side if you will in the context of this discussion on israel

00:08:23.700 that will use and abuse human emotion with misinformation and propaganda.

00:08:31.740 We've seen that especially in the last two and a half years

00:08:35.040 with the sorts of images that are coming out of Gaza.

00:08:38.840 Now, many of them are accurate and very tragic.

00:08:42.700 And it's always been my position that the responsibility for that suffering

00:08:46.820 has to be properly attributed to the terrorists that are using these human shields,

00:08:51.620 to those that, of course, started this whole saga on the 7th of October with their barbarous

00:08:58.460 atrocities. But then we've also had alongside that such an avalanche of fake images, either

00:09:06.040 AI generated or from other conflicts around the world, or one particular phenomenon, which

00:09:13.340 presented a succession of supposedly starving children that have all subsequently been pointed

00:09:20.500 out, proven to be very sick children, children who had very serious health conditions that

00:09:27.580 prevented them from taking on nutrients. But then the moment that an ordinary individual

00:09:32.820 is presented with a very difficult image to stomach and is told falsely that Israel is

00:09:39.100 responsible for starving this child, I think what you're alluding to here is that reason,

00:09:44.580 logic, all of that goes out of the window and you have this very understandable guttural response.

00:09:50.500 And I think that the only possibility of navigating that, I do think that it is possible.

00:09:57.900 And I have seen, in fact, you know, the facts, the law, the practical analysis having an impact on certainly some people.

00:10:06.620 But I think there are two potential messages that do have a chance of overcoming that false messaging and the very powerful effect it has.

00:10:15.300 And the first is that these people who have succumbed to this propaganda need to understand that they have been lied to.

00:10:22.920 They have had the wool pulled over their eyes.

00:10:25.840 And the second very important message is that what is now being done to Israel with this false imagery,

00:10:33.460 with the false application of international law and the weaponization of international law against essentially the only democracy in the Middle East,

00:10:41.680 what starts with Israel will not end with Israel. 0.68

00:10:44.940 And what we are witnessing is a war that is being waged through these exact processes against Western civilization itself, against our very way of life.

00:10:54.520 And when that realisation hits, that this is not really just about the Jewish state, and in fact, the West is next, then I think that potentially has the prospect of changing some perspectives also, and at least of opening up people's minds away from these false images, these false narratives, and to look into the detail, the facts, the law, which, as you rightly point out, are in this case, very much on Israel's side.

00:11:22.940 But have you been able, even in your personal interactions, to document instances where someone was completely on the anti-Israel side and then sent you an email and said, hey, in light of some of the things that you've now put out there and what maybe others have, I've actually come around.

00:11:43.200 And I say that because I have faced several of these instances, and it can be incredibly rewarding on a personal level, because otherwise you often think that you're standing on top of the mountain screaming, but no one is listening.

00:11:56.460 So tell us a bit about that, if it's relevant to your own life.

00:11:59.840 it certainly is relevant um i have people reaching out to me um via various uh means and on social

00:12:07.160 media um on a regular basis and and many of them will say um i i was really anti-israel i uh i heard

00:12:16.780 what you had to say i started to look into it and this collectively i mean they don't attribute it

00:12:21.780 just to to my content but this has um had a real impact on me and i've changed my mind now i don't

00:12:27.520 know how anti-Israel they were to start with. I imagine that those that have been entirely

00:12:34.360 brainwashed will simply close their ears to anything that seeks to threaten the veracity

00:12:42.180 of their convictions. And you see this on a regular basis. There are many, I think, brave

00:12:47.500 individuals who've gone into these hate marches with kefir-clad individuals, you know, screaming 0.90

00:12:54.000 for genocide against the Jews, essentially, globalising the Intifada, calling for the 0.96

00:13:01.380 area between the river and the sea to be Jew-free. So those individuals never appear, at least 1.00

00:13:08.340 on these clips, particularly open to discussing their positions, or not least, you know, being

00:13:13.860 challenged on them. But on an ad hoc basis, I've certainly been reached out to by many

00:13:20.340 individuals over the years of that nature and of course over the much greater period of time

00:13:26.980 I've engaged in much longer protracted exchanges of emails in my youth in which it has been I think

00:13:35.460 far more possible to change perspectives and once you have you know a personal relationship

00:13:41.360 based on respect of another person's perspective and the willingness to listen then real progress

00:13:50.000 is possible. But ultimately, I appreciate that's not going to be the case everywhere. In fact,

00:13:55.040 it's probably going to be the minority of instances that people are open to hearing the

00:14:00.900 other side and to learning from those that are better informed, better educated on these issues

00:14:06.300 than they. What I would just add is that the vast majority of the feedback that I get is from people

00:14:15.440 that do understand the reality of the position but feel entirely alone and the value that I feel

00:14:23.120 is brought by by those of us and I see you as a real leader in this space in speaking up for

00:14:30.260 common sense and in you know being the honey badger and in making the case for reasonableness

00:14:37.680 for the you know correct application of the facts and against these forces of darkness and

00:14:43.500 internationally prescribed terrorist organizations that are seeking to pull the wall over so many

00:14:47.820 people's eyes providing that space um sometimes people are referring to it as a safe space right

00:14:53.820 but giving people the impression um and the confidence that they are not alone in this

00:14:58.940 i think is absolutely invaluable and it's a big driving force behind um you know why i'm

00:15:04.540 spending so much time doing this now you go into many forums uh where you debate folks

00:15:11.340 let me step back so i often get invited to do some of these debates and i'm hardly someone who

00:15:18.320 you know wilts away in fear as you pointed to my honey badgerness but oftentimes i will take

00:15:25.600 a very pragmatic decision that given a life of fixed resources my debating someone whether the

00:15:35.140 earth is flat or round might not be a good idea because you know they're coming from such a

00:15:40.840 ridiculous position that no amount of evidence that I could ever offer them might change their

00:15:44.960 opinion. But then you can argue you're not really doing it to debate that person, but you're doing 0.62

00:15:49.800 it for the audience. So yes, many times I will accept to engage someone who might hold deferring

00:15:57.960 positions if I believe that there is even a modicum of possibility that if they were an honest

00:16:04.520 interlocutor, I might be able to get them to change one millimeter off their anchored position.

00:16:09.720 But in many of the folks that you've been brave in interacting with, I don't think that applies. There's nothing that Natasha is ever going to say that's going to make any difference. I will tend to walk away from those debates, whereas in many cases, maybe to your credit, you walk into them.

00:16:28.020 do you think that your approach is always better because no matter what the audience effect is

00:16:34.280 there or are there some situations where even Natasha says this person is not worth my time

00:16:39.480 to debate um I wouldn't put it quite like that but there are certainly places where I would draw

00:16:45.220 the line and have done uh in fact when um essentially individuals who've been involved in

00:16:50.100 in terror uh were sprung on me last moment as a debate in Ireland I said no um this isn't

00:16:55.980 happening and the organisers ultimately climbed down and we had the debate with an equally you

00:17:02.860 know perhaps reprehensible person as far as I was concerned a Hamas supporter but someone who

00:17:08.800 happened to be a member of parliament in Ireland and therefore my calculation was well you know

00:17:14.080 that's an individual that falls on on the other side of sharing a platform of that line of who

00:17:21.280 one ought to share a platform with. So that consideration, I think, is extremely important

00:17:25.740 for the platforming aspect of this. But so far as the ability to change minds,

00:17:33.940 I have no illusions, Gad, that when I went to debate, you know, Mehdi Hassan and Gideon Levy,

00:17:40.580 that I had any prospect of changing their minds. But what I was able to successfully do is prove

00:17:46.540 that Mehdi Hassan was a liar in particular in the way that he misrepresented a quote by Arthur

00:17:52.280 Balfour or Balfour and now of course you know once a liar the indication and I think from that is

00:18:00.360 that it was very difficult for the audience to believe anything else he said and Douglas Murray

00:18:05.200 who was my partner in that debate and I won that debate in Toronto was successful in the monk

00:18:10.940 debate so I think the opportunity to prove these people wrong to reveal them to be the charlatans

00:18:19.040 that they are is an extremely important opportunity to take up and that's why so long as they fall you

00:18:25.860 know on that side of that difficult line in terms of legality then I think it is really important

00:18:34.500 to engage wherever possible and you know I come from a long history and a tradition of debating

00:18:41.440 I was an avid debater at school and university I also coached debating and some may say I now get

00:18:47.660 to debate for a living as a member of the bar in England and Wales and I feel very privileged

00:18:53.060 to have that opportunity I've always thought that open debate free speech the ability to argue one's

00:19:01.680 case, was the best way of getting to the truth of the matter, and the best way of showing up

00:19:08.580 the fallacious arguments of the other side. So I generally welcome those opportunities whenever I

00:19:13.860 can. Now, you mentioned at the start of your response, you said a member of the Parliament

00:19:19.980 in Ireland who's a Hamas supporter. So that pretty much covers everybody in the Irish Parliament,

00:19:25.940 except maybe one or two people, am I right?

00:19:29.240 I do know one or two people who certainly don't fall in that description,

00:19:33.480 and I've certainly had a lot of engagement with Irish politicians,

00:19:36.180 not least because of the current sort of resurgence of an attempt

00:19:42.920 to pass essentially a BDS law in Ireland.

00:19:48.360 And when I last gave evidence to the Irish Parliament

00:19:51.240 in one of their committees at their Oireachtas,

00:19:53.900 I was specifically asked to address you know the Irish interests as far as this

00:20:01.100 law was concerned and I think this is just a useful example of knowing your

00:20:05.900 audience because I mean you and I may very well feel that the discrimination

00:20:10.220 against the only Jewish state is reprehensible in and of itself it is

00:20:14.960 also something that is deeply problematic on the basis of the lies

00:20:18.800 that are being told about Israel this is a bill that was being advanced on the

00:20:23.000 canards of you know genocide and starvation and indiscriminate killing

00:20:27.440 which are so far from the truth and the reality is to frankly be laughable but

00:20:33.320 to give you an insight when I spoke to the Parliament my submissions were the

00:20:38.600 thrust of my submissions were on you know what impact is this going to have

00:20:42.200 on Ireland how this would have breached the European Union law that Ireland was

00:20:47.880 subject to how it would have been a violation of Ireland's world treaty

00:20:51.620 organisation obligations and what problematic situation it was going to create for US companies

00:21:00.380 operating in Ireland as of course now many of them even have their headquarters there

00:21:05.600 as a result of that very advantageous tax position that the Irish have created but

00:21:11.720 faced with the passing of this law and I'm glad to say that it does seem to have halted at least

00:21:17.620 for the time being. Faced with this new legislation, those US companies would have been put in

00:21:24.320 an impossible situation, making representations to the Irish government that they were essentially

00:21:30.360 discriminating against Israeli companies would have put them in violation of US laws. And

00:21:36.480 there are substantial fines that potentially emanate from that. So I think knowing your

00:21:41.280 audience and tailoring your arguments to their interests is always going to be critical.

00:21:46.820 Well, I mean, to take it in a marketing context, a good salesperson is one that knows how to do exactly what you just said, which is if I'm a car salesman, I see a particular customer come in, I don't always deliver the exact same, you know, key selling point, I will tailor it and hence I've got Machiavellian intelligence.

00:22:09.140 A lot of people think that Machiavellian intelligence is always a sinister, nefarious ability, but it need not be applied.

00:22:16.420 And it just it just means that you have social intelligence to be able to recognize, as you said, that audience A needs to, you know, see me deliver the message satirically, whereas audience B needs me to be professorial.

00:22:28.880 So I hear you. If I were to I'm guessing maybe you're somewhat familiar with my forthcoming book, Suicidal Empathy.

00:22:36.600 yes forthcoming so i haven't read it but the the the premises of it i think um i have the hang of

00:22:43.880 absolutely okay because i'm i'm curious to see whether i should change my categorization you'll

00:22:49.920 see in a second the gist of my question so far i have given the laudable honors of stage five

00:22:57.920 suicidal empathy which is above the highest score of stage four as we know from say cancer so the

00:23:05.320 unique privilege of stage five suicidal empathy has been reserved you ready drum roll canada

00:23:11.080 sweden and norway although we can debate if other ones now i'm thinking that somebody's knocking on

00:23:19.120 the stage five category it's called britain should i be updating my membership in stage

00:23:28.020 five suicidal empathy for britain if yes why if no why not it's a difficult question

00:23:35.020 And it's one that, in fact, even at this conference that we met at was being posed to me in quite problematic terms.

00:23:45.320 Ultimately, the question is, is there a way back from where the United Kingdom seems to be heading?

00:23:52.160 Now, I don't know if that would be the differential factor between your stage five and your stage four.

00:23:56.880 But ultimately, I think that the increasing fear is that we are so far along this road that it becomes increasingly impossible to see a way back from it.

00:24:10.700 And by that, the the anti-British, anti-Western forces that really do appear to have taken hold throughout so many different aspects of society.

00:24:22.520 You know, certainly government is a very problematic area for this.

00:24:28.800 But a lot of that, people argue, is due to demographics and the pitching of various policies to a changing demographic in the United Kingdom.

00:24:42.340 I'd just highlight that, you know, the Green Party is slated this weekend to be voting on a resolution that Zionism is racism,

00:24:50.480 which is of course reflective of the the worst aspects of efforts at the United Nations

00:24:56.980 to ultimately pass a resolution that Zionism was racism which was then undone at least on paper

00:25:07.020 even if the sentiment has pervaded and so looking at that trajectory of politics and

00:25:13.580 and specifically looking at it through the lens of you know hatred forgive me um hatred of of the

00:25:21.340 jews and hatred of the state of israel um then that is something that has been gaining traction

00:25:27.660 at such a rate that would probably mandate um you know a category five classification um given the

00:25:36.140 company that you cited. There's this big question as to whether the changing nature of politics here

00:25:46.520 and the emergence of so many new parties in the United Kingdom could potentially rewrite the

00:25:53.860 political map. And in those circumstances, you know, is a change of direction feasible? This

00:26:01.320 would have to entail big change. I'm not certain that it is the sort of change that politicians

00:26:08.020 can execute without being called, you know, radical and even revolutionary. So I completely

00:26:16.980 understand how there is every argument to bump the UK up. But I'll wait for your book and to see

00:26:24.900 how it is that you have ultimately classified the UK and whether in your estimation, there's still

00:26:30.160 much hope uh for the place that i call home look the small hope that i see and you you'll you'll

00:26:36.200 correct me if maybe i'm being too optimistic but sometimes one needs to be optimistic otherwise

00:26:40.340 there's no point in getting out of bed uh there are a few quote agents of change that are coming

00:26:46.160 up in britain and maybe i'll ask you to give me a sense of how how likely they are to implement

00:26:52.420 the necessary auto corrections so of course we've got rupert uh low right is that how you pronounce

00:26:57.920 at Rupert Lowe. There is, I mean, maybe slightly to the periphery, but there's Ben Habib,

00:27:03.820 right? There is Nigel Farage, and maybe I'm not thinking of other ones. Would those types

00:27:11.060 and their ilk have the testicular fortitude to be able to implement some of these necessary

00:27:18.520 auto-corrections, or do you think they're too vanilla to be able to actually pull it off?

00:27:23.660 So that's one of my favourite phrases of yours. And I think it's an apt question. You've named, you know, quite controversial characters within the British political system. And I think that many people are yearning for, you know, the yesteryear, the Churchills and the Margaret Thatchers, who were able to inspire a degree of confidence.

00:27:49.520 I would suggest, I know neither of them were universally liked, but I would suggest perhaps with a degree of less of the controversy, ultimately, until I think I have a clearer understanding of what practically can be done to change the trajectory here in the United Kingdom,

00:28:12.700 I think it's very difficult to assess whether any political figure would have the ability to implement that, even if they have the will.

00:28:22.800 And as you say, the testicular fortitude, the big question is, well, what are the mechanisms within the British political system?

00:28:31.020 The levers, how does the civil service factor into the limitations on what it is that politicians are able to deliver?

00:28:39.380 and all of this is necessarily also impacted by the changing nature of society and institutions

00:28:48.800 here in the United Kingdom there are so many people that have been voicing their concern of

00:28:53.880 being able to trust you know the police after so many scandals the civil service the education

00:29:00.500 system and then of course the politicians so I don't pretend to have the answers and happily

00:29:06.680 actually, not being a politician myself, but just being a barrister, I can perhaps get away

00:29:12.720 with just, you know, highlighting the questions here and avoiding providing any prophecies or

00:29:18.580 answers. You mentioned the Iron Lady, a strong female figure. You currently have another 0.70

00:29:24.440 female leader, Lady Keir Starmer. Do you wish to comment at all about her ability to lead Britain?

00:29:34.060 i actually thought you were you were referring to uh sir kia's wife but um

00:29:41.260 now it's my german heritage again it means that my sense of humor is still somewhat underdeveloped

00:29:50.340 before before you answer it let me tell you a story about germany so um so i i was invited

00:29:55.780 it was a big honor in 2001 to spend a mini visit at the Max Planck Institute, which is

00:30:03.220 this very she-she sort of academic institution. And there are different ones throughout Germany.

00:30:09.960 The one that I was invited to was in Berlin. It was headed at the time by a German psychologist,

00:30:16.780 I think he's retired now, named Gerd Gigerenzer. And I was giving some very serious academic talks.

00:30:21.780 but true to my nature you know i threw in a couple of jokes nothing zero like literally

00:30:29.340 complete you hear and so right away i said oh my apologies i wasn't aware that i was in germany

00:30:35.740 and i i just pivoted because true to the stereotype i think they were missing the humor

00:30:41.880 bone but take it away go on so sir kia who uh who struggles with the difference between offensive

00:30:48.060 and defensive military action and isn't able to answer the question as to whether, you know,

00:30:53.500 strikes on missile launches versus strikes on people launching the missiles. I mean, we have

00:31:01.880 unfortunately, I think, become somewhat of a laughingstock, in particular over the last few

00:31:06.720 weeks as a result of this indecision. And I was listening to the radio only earlier today,

00:31:12.120 And our Defence Secretary couldn't answer how many frigates and other vessels we had deployable in the Royal Navy.

00:31:21.520 So, I mean, there is a great deal that is left to be desired, unfortunately, by this government as a whole.

00:31:30.000 But ultimately, the buck stops with the Prime Minister.

00:31:32.980 And there are many that have been suggesting that he is not long for the role.

00:31:37.780 the damage though and the impact on the reputation of the United Kingdom internationally

00:31:45.000 is extremely potent I don't think it's something that can simply be swept away with a change of

00:31:53.680 prime minister or even a change of government and in terms of relationships with other key

00:31:57.860 allies and importantly the United States I mean that that has clearly suffered some damage I'm

00:32:04.180 not sure if you saw um president trump i believe you know retweeting or posting on truth social the

00:32:10.240 um the um saturday night live skit uh no i didn't no right uh well uh look lady thatcher was also 0.99

00:32:18.200 routinely made fun of uh on uh you know spitting image and the like uh during her premiership but

00:32:23.840 of course um it never quite hit home so much as it does with sir keir starmer because it is so

00:32:31.080 reflective of the reality. And that is the, you know, real devastating aspect for anyone who I

00:32:37.100 think, you know, is British at the moment. But we'll have to wait and wait and see how long he

00:32:43.540 lasts. I don't believe he can undo the damage that has already been brought. And so much of it,

00:32:51.140 so much of it is so completely contrary to everything that this Prime Minister

00:32:56.120 presents himself as standing for. This is another fellow barrister, a member of the bar,

00:33:02.140 who has professed his dedication to international law and human rights along with

00:33:07.020 the Attorney General, Richard Hermer. And together, they have thrown international law

00:33:14.960 out of the window on successive occasions in pursuing what strikes me as a rather fanatical

00:33:22.040 policy against Israel in particular and against British and Western interests more broadly.

00:33:28.880 You know, one relatively recent example was this laughable recognition of a non-existent

00:33:34.760 state of Palestine, which was in the first instance announced as a conditional recognition

00:33:40.760 and was then later clarified as simply an aspirational recognition.

00:33:45.480 And I say that in particular because the UN Security Council resolution, which essentially

00:33:50.900 codified the Trump peace plan and makes it perfectly clear that Palestinian self-determination

00:33:56.700 in the form of a state is an if, but, maybe, when matter as opposed to one that can in fact be

00:34:04.000 driven forward to in the immediate or foreseeable future. The United Kingdom endorsed that UN

00:34:12.340 Security Council resolution and thereby made it perfectly plain that there is no such thing

00:34:18.340 as a state of Palestine currently. 0.69

00:34:21.700 So we've had all of this deeply hypocritical, 0.70

00:34:25.220 deeply contradictory policy 0.95

00:34:27.520 coming out of the government of the United Kingdom,

00:34:31.560 which is entirely contrary in so many respects

00:34:34.100 to what international law says.

00:34:35.500 And that has, I'm bound to say,

00:34:38.740 cemented my view that these are individuals

00:34:41.720 not driven by real international law,

00:34:43.820 but they are using the buzzword of international law

00:34:47.340 to justify their position, certainly,

00:34:50.320 but I think also to pull the wool over people's eyes

00:34:53.300 and to say, well, you know, this is what international law mandates,

00:34:56.120 so you can't argue with me.

00:34:58.700 And that is a very poor debater who makes that position,

00:35:02.780 one that they adopt, and to say that this is beyond argument

00:35:06.940 and I'm not prepared or not going to justify my position to you

00:35:11.320 by convincing you that it is correct

00:35:15.320 and in the best interests of the people that I serve.

00:35:18.100 You mentioned a few sentences ago the United Nations,

00:35:22.180 and obviously you're someone who's very wedded

00:35:24.440 to these international mechanisms and international bodies.

00:35:28.240 We both know Hillel Neuer.

00:35:31.340 I hope I'm pronouncing it right.

00:35:33.620 And a fantastic guy.

00:35:35.720 For those of you who don't know,

00:35:37.000 I'm not saying this to you, Natasha, but to our listeners,

00:35:39.740 he works with UN Watch,

00:35:41.220 and he certainly is a honey badger 1.00

00:35:43.780 who goes into the Vipers' den and just goes completely wacko on some of these imbeciles. 1.00

00:35:50.000 Do you hold out hope that the United Nations, in its current form, can still prove to be a worthy body 0.99

00:35:58.720 because no other body could exist?

00:36:01.360 Or is this something where you have to eradicate it and start fresh,

00:36:05.580 sort of like Trump's idea of starting the peace board or whatever it's called?

00:36:10.380 or is there hope that it can be re you know fixed there isn't hope for the united nations and i'll

00:36:19.900 explain why but may i just also say that i think hillel noyer is an absolute inspiration and he

00:36:24.840 actually really recently hosted me to speak at the un council where i was able to say in you know

00:36:34.180 pretty clear terms, what they were doing was extremely destructive to the principles and

00:36:42.780 purposes that this council was set up to achieve. I was thereafter reprimanded for the language that

00:36:49.460 I used. And I'd encourage you and perhaps others to perhaps review that clip and let me know by

00:36:57.420 carrier pigeon or email if any of the language that I deployed there was in any way inappropriate.

00:37:04.540 But I thought their response, which was clearly pre-prepared, was very, very telling. And the

00:37:10.280 reason that I say that there is no hope for these institutions is because they are rotten to the

00:37:16.560 core, as Hillel and his organisation are demonstrating on, frankly, a weekly basis.

00:37:22.260 but I have seen so many manifestations of this over the years and I have seen it worsening

00:37:27.640 and it is broader than just the United Nations there is an infrastructure an ecosystem of NGOs

00:37:34.280 that have been subject to this broader takeover and one feeds the other so I'll give you an example

00:37:40.860 I was invited to Oslo and to Copenhagen to debate with Amnesty International specifically about

00:37:48.800 their report alleging genocide in Gaza that Israel had committed this crime of crimes now I went 0.87

00:37:56.720 along to each of these events and it was perfectly plain to me that the two individuals who'd been

00:38:02.020 put up by the organization to debate against me hadn't even read the report but what they had

00:38:08.060 also clearly missed was the methodology section which made it perfectly clear that Amnesty

00:38:13.640 International did not have people on the ground in Gaza. They instead relied on what they called

00:38:19.160 local government authorities, Hamas. So they would take Hamas propaganda, stick it into a document

00:38:26.580 headed up with their logo, Amnesty International, and they'd send it out into the ether.

00:38:31.300 And that in turn gets picked up by Francesca Albanese, who I'm sure you'll be familiar with

00:38:36.680 through the work of Hillel Noyer, if nothing else, through, it gets quoted in the UN Human Rights

00:38:41.820 Council, the Commission of Inquiry that put out a report alleging genocide more or less copied and

00:38:48.120 pasted the amnesty report. It got cycled up into, you know, UN General Assembly resolutions, and then

00:38:54.220 it will get cited by the International Court of Justice. And at that point, amnesty will point

00:38:59.320 and say, see, the ICJ says so. And that cycle of disinformation is then complete when amnesty and

00:39:07.420 others cite the International Court of Justice, you know, finding entirely erroneously. There are

00:39:14.740 many misrepresentations even of ICJ provisional measures order, orders that are said to say

00:39:20.360 things that they certainly do not say. That's been another battle in and of itself. But what

00:39:25.220 we have seen through this cyclical process of laundering the propaganda of internationally

00:39:31.780 prescribed terrorist organisations is that it becomes you know wholesale accepted within these

00:39:37.620 hallowed corridors within the intellectual liberal elite it's also of course parroted by the likes of

00:39:43.640 the BBC and other supposedly or at least once respected broadcasters and so in that vein

00:39:51.780 somewhat perhaps akin to my pessimism about British politics I simply cannot see how it can

00:39:58.060 be saved. And if we're talking about the United Nations more broadly, I also don't see the purpose

00:40:04.680 of the vast majority of the mechanisms with which we are familiar at the United Nations. Having a

00:40:10.280 place where the countries of the world are able to meet and converse, and I warrant that the vast

00:40:16.460 majority of the important exchanges happen in the corridors, nothing of note ever gets said in the

00:40:22.880 chambers of this particular organisation. But the notion that there would need to be a vote

00:40:29.040 on anything in this organisation, in this body, is frankly laughable. And that is exacerbated

00:40:36.740 further when one looks at the nature of the countries leading the vast majority of these

00:40:44.100 laughable votes. And when you think that these despots and dictatorships have each one of them

00:40:51.440 the same voice as you know the whole of germany or the whole of canada um it does become i think

00:40:57.040 very difficult to justify the continued existence of the united nations people are you know saying

00:41:03.420 to us oh well you know the un does good on this particular program or that particular program

00:41:08.240 and there may very well be merit we have advocated for um you know a commission um a congressional

00:41:15.620 commission from the united states to investigate root and branch into the united nations and work

00:41:21.280 out what good there may still be what might be worthy of saving but also to really shed a light

00:41:29.600 on the rotten core that has so abjectly abandoned its founding principles and has been the key

00:41:37.960 driving force behind so much racism so much of the targeting of the vulnerable around the world

00:41:44.420 there have been a number of whistleblowers who have who have shed light on on that and in

00:41:50.940 particular of course the driving force of of the modern manifestation of anti-semitism which is

00:41:57.260 this buzzword you mentioned pretty much at the outset anti-zionism do you earlier i mentioned

00:42:04.080 whether there was any hope of any auto corrections in britain could there be any mechanisms i mean i

00:42:11.700 know you said that it's it's rotten to the core and it's dead so if that's the case and we abandon

00:42:15.840 that project it is there in your vision some alternate international and maybe you're not

00:42:21.800 ready to to answer this question but is there some vision of an international body where there

00:42:27.500 could be the proper guardrails against the degeneracy that the united nations has gone down

00:42:34.540 or whenever you're going to have such a large international body where there are many bad faith

00:42:40.780 actors, it is doomed before we even begin the project? Well, perhaps several years ago,

00:42:46.900 as a sort of vision or a half-baked notion, I might have said, well, the notion of a league

00:42:52.000 of democracies strikes a far better potential tone than the farce that we have seen playing

00:43:01.180 out at the United Nations. At least then you have a collection of countries with a shared

00:43:06.960 moral compass and shared basis of government that is predicated on not just democratic

00:43:15.880 representation, but belief in real human rights and equality between peoples. But then look at

00:43:23.060 the state of so many of the democracies that I know you and I cherish. Look at the trajectory

00:43:29.560 that they're on. I don't know that my earlier ideas and aspirations to some form of organization

00:43:39.580 along those lines would fare that much better, given what we have seen. I know you speak a lot

00:43:48.000 about the wokification of various aspects of human engagement. But of course, what we have

00:43:55.620 seen on the international plane is deeply, deeply worrying. And the impact that that is having on

00:44:02.780 Western liberal democratic nations is equally troubling.

00:44:09.000 Do you think, so in my Jerusalem keynote address, where we met for the first time in person,

00:44:16.880 I used the shingles virus analogy to sort of talk about how, you know, for, and I mean, I know you're

00:44:24.180 aware of this, but let me mention for our viewers, the shingles virus is something that lays dormant

00:44:28.780 in you for many, many decades. And then depending on particular triggers, it can flare up in your

00:44:35.160 50s and your 60s, and it could cause a really painful situation. And I analogized that virus,

00:44:41.640 that latent dormant virus to Jew hatred in that, yes, you can go through periods as we did for 0.84

00:44:48.420 many decades in the West, where it really seemed like, oh, maybe Jew hatred is in the rear view

00:44:54.140 mirror but oops guess what here comes the shingles virus and we're back to the carnival of

00:45:00.300 Jew hatred do you think that that somehow is an indelible feature of the dark heart of human 0.96

00:45:10.040 reality that we have to have a scapegoat that we hate and for various reasons the Jew is the one 1.00

00:45:17.040 that is most easily accessible and so therefore we're always going to have this dormant and then

00:45:23.580 flare up with Jew hatred or to use sort of my terminology is there a vaccine that could be

00:45:31.800 administered in some form in some institution whereby you and I or our children in the future 0.75

00:45:38.280 could look back at the ugly days of the black plague of Jew hatred and it no longer exists

00:45:43.820 so I was fascinated by the the shingles analogy um but I I will be always always honest with you

00:45:52.820 And I think for my part, the best understanding of antisemitism that I have achieved, the oldest hatred, of course, has been through the explanation by the late great rabbi, Lord Jonathan Sachs, former chief rabbi of the United Kingdom, who talked about antisemitism as a mutating virus. 0.64

00:46:15.720 one that perhaps began in the middle ages with a focus on Jews as a religion because religion was

00:46:21.500 the order of the day mutated in the 20th century to focus on Jews as a race because science took

00:46:28.020 over from religion and in fact the Nazis used eugenics to justify a hatred of the Jewish race

00:46:33.100 but that today or at least before he died Rabbi Sachs had identified that the hatred of the Jews

00:46:41.380 had mutated once again and in fact now manifested itself against the Jewish state because international

00:46:47.760 law and human rights were the order of the day, even taking over from religion and then

00:46:52.680 science. And it was therefore through those mechanisms of international law and human

00:46:56.840 rights that Jew hatred manifested itself in the form, and this may very well be my own 0.83

00:47:02.200 addition, but in the form as I see it as the modern blood liables of occupation, ethnic 0.56

00:47:08.000 cleansing, colonialism, apartheid, genocide, war crimes. All of these are total inversions.

00:47:15.420 They are false. They are the modern blood liables, but they are all using legal terminology.

00:47:21.800 And in that sense, and with that analogy, if you will, of mutating virus rather than

00:47:27.220 the shingles flare up, I think there is an important distinction which suggests that,

00:47:35.600 in fact anti-semitism has always been there it is perhaps been you know more latent but only

00:47:42.960 necessarily in in the parts of the world in which we're lucky enough to live you know there are many

00:47:48.000 parts of the world where it has still been going strong and and has never let up but the idea that

00:47:56.860 it has now taken on this different form is what has enabled so many people to embrace it

00:48:03.580 more full-throatedly because it is something that appeals to the intellectual liberal elite and

00:48:09.140 because it has become this virtue signaling badge of honor it is of course been in parallel with

00:48:17.020 these sorts of divisions that we have seen throughout society you know you're either with

00:48:21.100 us or you're against us there's no middle ground pick a side and all of that I think perhaps better

00:48:27.720 explains where we are but also the importance of pushing back against it. There's also I think

00:48:35.260 and you will have to educate me on this but but certainly a psychological trait here in terms of

00:48:41.580 the allegations that are being deployed in terms of the use of these modern blood labels because

00:48:46.280 in each and every instance I see them as a form of projection. In each and every instance the Jews 1.00

00:48:54.040 here, Jews in Israel in particular, are being accused of the very crimes that were committed

00:48:59.740 against them. And perhaps the most significant manifestation of this is with this abhorrent

00:49:05.860 canard of genocide, because this was a term that was coined in response to the Jewish experience

00:49:11.140 in the Holocaust to provide legal terminology to that experience of being targeted for extermination

00:49:17.360 because they were Jewish. And it was Raphael Lemkin, a Jewish jurist, who came up with the

00:49:21.920 term for that purpose but then noting that experience in the holocaust and then also

00:49:26.320 noting what happened on the 7th of october which was again acts of genocide being perpetrated

00:49:31.520 against jews because they were jews and then seeing that projection of the victims of those

00:49:37.320 those crimes and that crime in particular being accused of committing that very same crime we see

00:49:43.580 that across you know allegations of apartheid of colonialism noting of course that you know jews

00:49:49.260 are indigenous to Judea and of every other crime that Jews in Israel in particular are now accused

00:49:59.140 of, you dig deep enough, you will see evidence that this is what was done to them. And that is

00:50:08.740 a fact. It's not something I can explain. It's not something I confess I quite understand as to the

00:50:15.300 origins of it. But that psychological phenomenon of projection, I think, is extremely potent

00:50:21.920 in understanding this modern manifestation of anti-Semitism that we are witnessing.

00:50:28.900 The projection part, I think you're exactly right. And by the way, the mutating virus analogy

00:50:35.020 is actually more pessimistic than I had hoped, because it basically says that the evolutionary

00:50:41.480 arms race will always be there, because as you come up with an inoculation against this 0.95

00:50:47.080 current instantiation of Jew hatred, oops, it mutates, and now you have to adjust.

00:50:52.220 And so if that rabbi in question is correct, then this will be a persistent hatred throughout 0.98

00:51:02.540 the rest of time, which is not a good thing.

00:51:05.660 But I can offer, if you'd like, a psychological explanation, which I can't remember if I

00:51:09.840 mentioned it in Jerusalem. So if I have, forgive me for repeating it, but certainly for our

00:51:14.620 audience that wasn't in Jerusalem, it might be worthwhile to mention here. So there is something

00:51:20.820 in psychology called the self-serving bias, right? Attribute successes internally. I think I

00:51:26.660 mentioned that in Jerusalem. Attribute successes internally, attribute failures externally. And

00:51:31.320 most people throughout the world do that because to use a psychoanalytic term, you use the term

00:51:37.160 projection, but to use another psychoanalytic term, it's an ego defensive strategy. Life is

00:51:41.540 very complicated. And it makes sense for me to attribute that I did well on the exam because

00:51:46.220 I'm smart. And if I did poorly on the exam, it's because the professor is an imbecile who's unfair, 0.99

00:51:51.440 right? And it allows me to kind of maintain the structure of my personhood. Now, imagine if I 0.99

00:51:57.720 could find a culprit for all of my individual and collective failures, and it's the Jew. So if my 0.99

00:52:05.440 society is failing, well, it's because of the Jew. It's because of Zionism. Even though there's 1.00

00:52:11.020 absolutely no causal mechanism that any rational person could ever come up with why Libya is 0.74

00:52:17.020 failing, but it must be somehow related to the existence of Israel. And at the individual level,

00:52:23.160 if I am Ahmad and my wife cheated on me, well, she probably got that idea through, you know,

00:52:29.680 consuming porn and that's what drove her libidinal desires to go with the gardener and ultimately who

00:52:36.220 who are the porn creators and the porn peddlers well it's obviously the jews and so to the extent 0.99

00:52:41.320 that my wife fatima cheated on me i can always link it back to the jew if it rained it's a jew 0.79

00:52:46.200 if it's sunny it's the jew now the question i know that you're giving um what might be interpreted

00:52:51.340 to be extreme examples but i have read an ngo report that attributed palestinian men beating

00:52:57.600 their wives uh the responsibility for that was on israel i know that i don't know that report

00:53:02.480 you're exactly right well i've got a worse one how about the sherman sheikh attack of sharks

00:53:07.780 on tourists yeah that was due to zionist jewish sharks that were trained by the sharks yeah 1.00

00:53:13.820 absolutely so but okay but just to finish that explanation so sure so okay so self-serving

00:53:19.160 bias successes internally failures externally but why should we blame the jew throughout all

00:53:25.340 periods and in different cultural ecosystems? Well, because there's one commonality, and that

00:53:30.820 is, I mean, Amy Chua, the Yale lawyer, actually, law professor, calls it market-dominant minorities, 0.99

00:53:39.100 right? So this is when you have a small group in various cultural ecosystem that is really

00:53:43.960 punching above its weight class. Now, the Jews are not the only ones that that description applies 1.00

00:53:50.140 to, but certainly wherever you find Jews as a minuscule diaspora, they tend to be the top 1.00

00:53:59.180 lawyers and the top physicians and the top professors and the top this and the top that. 1.00

00:54:04.420 Well, if I'm failing and I'm not part of that group, those assholes are demonic. And so it 1.00

00:54:11.080 becomes a very accessible way for me to be able to swallow both my individual and collective

00:54:16.900 failures. I didn't here invoke any theological reasons, which of course also exists for Jew

00:54:23.440 hatred, but just at the basic psychological, the architecture of the human mind is really well

00:54:30.560 honed to latch onto the Jew. What do you think of that explanation? I think it works absolutely 1.00

00:54:38.000 in parallel with all the other manifestations of it, and it creates a rather perfect storm,

00:54:43.820 doesn't it? And you see that, of course, perhaps even magnified by the success of the Jewish state

00:54:50.960 against all of the odds. And so many people can't possibly understand how it is that Israel has

00:54:59.200 been able to survive, despite essentially facing existential threats and wars of annihilation

00:55:04.900 against it from its very creation. I did hear, and I'm now going to forget terribly the name of the,

00:55:12.200 Oh, no, Micha Goodman. Micha Goodman, an Israeli philosopher. I heard a clip of his a couple of days ago, which I thought was absolutely fascinating, explaining the remarkable success of Israel on the battlefield and comparing the focus on individualism versus the collectivist approach.

00:55:37.260 And traditionally, it's been said that strengths in the battlefield will very much be a question of will over capability.

00:55:47.200 I've also heard that from many military experts over the years who will say that the morale of an army is critical so much more so than many other factors, including numbers, capabilities, technological advancement.

00:56:02.120 Morale and will I saw as somewhat interchangeable with respect to Micha Goodman's analysis.

00:56:10.000 But the remarkable thing about the state of Israel is that it is unique in having been able to marry the culture of individualism,

00:56:20.720 which has driven military and technological developments and, of course, economic thriving in such a powerful fashion.

00:56:31.320 but it has not been at the expense of the collective cultural approach and that really

00:56:40.280 resonated with me because it suggested to me that what is unique that I have witnessed

00:56:47.360 amongst Israelis and in terms of the culture in Israel is that very deeply held sense of purpose

00:56:54.020 which is perhaps also interchangeable with the morale and the will that was variously referred

00:57:00.280 to in in similar regards and it is that sense of purpose which so increasingly seems to set

00:57:07.320 Israel out apart from so many of the other individualist societies which have done you 1.00

00:57:15.880 know phenomenally well but but in so many respects seem to be losing their way so that was perhaps

00:57:22.840 just you know an add-on and of course when one sees such phenomenal success absent professor

00:57:29.960 Goodman's ability to explain the phenomenon, then it certainly feeds into the mentality

00:57:37.200 that you're describing of resentment and blame.

00:57:40.660 And to add to your add-on, I would say that the fact that Israelis have that sense of 0.94

00:57:46.120 purpose might explain why Israel scores quite highly on the happiness index.

00:57:52.620 Because a fundamental feature when I wake up in the morning is if I kind of rub my hands

00:57:58.340 in gleeful anticipation for the looming day, because I've got purpose and meaning, well,

00:58:04.180 that's already getting me halfway to climbing, you know, Mount Happiness, right? And so that

00:58:09.340 might explain some of the happiness that Israelis feel, despite the fact that they live in a 1.00

00:58:14.420 dangerous neighborhood. If you were gracious enough to say that you can go a bit longer,

00:58:18.020 can I ask you a few more questions that are a bit more, I mean, not personal in an intimate

00:58:22.460 a sense, but that are more sort of Natasha specific rather than the international law

00:58:28.620 expert. Do you permit me to do that? Only because it's you, Gad.

00:58:32.360 Well, aren't you sweet? Okay. So you may or may not know when I'm not fighting for justice and

00:58:39.880 defending truth and writing papers in evolutionary psychology, what I like to do is,

00:58:45.320 you know, I love soccer. I'm a voracious reader, not unlike the library that you have behind you.

00:58:51.000 I love to collect books. I am a hopeless pathological book collector. One of my biggest

00:58:57.040 angst in life is that I haven't read many of the books that are in my personal library and I

00:59:02.360 worry that I'm running out of time, God forbid. What are some of the things that would allow our

00:59:08.200 listeners and viewers to know a bit more about Natasha that you'd like to share? Some of the

00:59:13.480 non-legal honey badger stuff that keep you awake with excitement well i i mentioned uh already my

00:59:22.200 love of debating and that really has been a big factor throughout my my student life and it it

00:59:27.440 also took me around the world um for competitions and introduced me to the most incredible group

00:59:33.500 of people friends that i have from my debating days who have gone off into all sorts of different

00:59:39.400 walks of life and being phenomenally impressive each in their own way. Before the last few years

00:59:47.440 I would have described myself as a bit of a film buff, absolutely loved good films and thought that

00:59:53.720 the medium was such an impressive contribution to culture, to societal critique. I have always

01:00:04.860 enjoyed reading but I think my legal practice sort of ate into that some to some extent you

01:00:11.540 know when you're when you're reading legal briefs all day that the notion of sitting down with

01:00:16.520 anything other than perhaps a newspaper is a little bit less enticing but I have to to come

01:00:26.280 clean and be honest with you that in the last few years especially you know the demands on my time

01:00:32.660 which I'm extremely grateful to have because of that sense of purpose

01:00:37.260 that I feel extremely blessed and privileged to hold.

01:00:42.600 But really the demands of my time nowadays mean that films are perhaps few and far between

01:00:47.620 and spending time with family takes priority and perhaps a more active sense and getting outdoors.

01:00:55.920 But really over the last 25 years, the sense of purpose that you've also described

01:01:02.640 has been a gift. Working in the service of something that is bigger than you

01:01:09.200 is an extremely special gift to have. It gives me energy in a way that, you know, my day job has

01:01:18.400 always perhaps taken energy away from me. And I look around at so many friends and colleagues

01:01:24.000 that don't have that additional part, you know, of their life that is so much bigger than them

01:01:29.880 and full of meaning and purpose.

01:01:31.780 And I absolutely agree.

01:01:33.560 I also derive so much happiness

01:01:35.480 from being able to contribute

01:01:37.360 in my own small way on these issues.

01:01:40.220 So it's great to find a kindred spirit

01:01:43.340 in that respect.

01:01:44.260 Oh, thank you.

01:01:45.220 I want to mention just one thing

01:01:46.560 about your attachment,

01:01:49.200 your appreciation of films.

01:01:50.480 And then I have one last question to ask you.

01:01:53.260 One of the ways, by the way,

01:01:55.360 that you can apply, you know,

01:01:57.500 my area in evolution psychology

01:01:59.080 to not just films, but all cultural products,

01:02:03.640 whether it be literature, whether it be art,

01:02:06.360 whether it be films, is to recognize

01:02:10.360 that you can do a content analysis

01:02:13.480 on these cultural products

01:02:16.660 to say something about human nature.

01:02:19.700 So for example, the reason why so much literature

01:02:23.780 titillates our senses and engages us

01:02:26.780 is because good literature consists of a few evolutionary-based narratives that exactly

01:02:36.140 appeal to what you and I as Darwinian beings expect. It's about paternity uncertainty. It's

01:02:42.580 about sexual longing. It's about sibling rivalry. So the stuff of literature is basically a canvas

01:02:48.980 to display human nature as is good filmmaking, right? So the reason why I watched this film

01:02:55.220 and then I could literally tear up despite the fact that there is no reason for me to be caring

01:03:00.720 about this projected person on the screen is because it is literally pulling at these evolutionary

01:03:06.420 based strings in my heart and mind. So I completely agree with you with your love for films. Last

01:03:13.260 question. And then anything else that you want to plug or promote will be the last thing we talk

01:03:17.940 about. So this is a question that has become sort of a tradition that I ask. It started from this.

01:03:23.400 So in this book, in the happiness book, one of the later chapters I talk about, you know, if you can live life in such a way that when you sit on the proverbial porch and look back at your life when you're 85 and you have as few regrets as possible, then you've probably done things properly.

01:03:41.420 so with that in mind there are two types of regrets that most people worry about and actually

01:03:48.060 the one of the pioneers of studying the psychology of regrets was one of my former professors in my

01:03:53.260 phd there is regrets due to action i regret that i cheated on my wife and then we're divorced

01:04:00.160 versus regret due to inaction i ended up becoming a lawyer because my dad was a lawyer and his dad

01:04:06.100 was a lawyer but in reality i wanted to be an architect so it's the i regret the the road that

01:04:11.200 i didn't take and it turns out maybe it doesn't surprise you natasha that the the thing that

01:04:15.820 people regret the most is the regret due to inaction uh now having said that you're still

01:04:23.500 a very young woman there's still a lot more runway ahead of you than behind you if i were to ask you 0.99

01:04:28.860 right now are there any looming regrets and are you willing to share any take it away natasha

01:04:34.960 I don't want to sound soppy about it but and and you know I am still relatively young so they may

01:04:42.160 still come um but at this junction no and I nothing well I'll tell you what would have been

01:04:50.160 a major regret if I had listened to so many people who after the 7th of October said to me

01:04:55.780 best to keep your mouth shut about these issues um that would have been a regret I would have

01:05:02.180 found extremely difficult to live with. And in fact, you know, in a previous career,

01:05:07.520 I was very limited in my ability to speak out. One of the great privileges alongside this sense

01:05:14.300 of purpose is being an independent practitioner at the English Bar and, you know, not having a boss

01:05:20.080 and therefore being able to, you know, use, I suppose, the platform of being a lawyer

01:05:26.820 to call out these falsehoods and lots of people have sort of questioned me on it and said well

01:05:34.380 you know do you regret perhaps becoming somewhat infamous or notorious and categorically I can say

01:05:42.260 it is the other way around and we spoke a little bit about you know feedback from people but the

01:05:47.980 more I hear from people who say how meaningful and how impactful just hearing somebody you know

01:05:55.480 speaking sense on on these issues especially on international law because so few if any people

01:05:59.740 seem to be prepared to call out the falsehoods on it um i can say that that would have been

01:06:06.540 probably the biggest regret of my life and i am counting my blessings every day that um i didn't

01:06:13.140 even countenance it i think um a commitment and i you know i'm gonna get really soppy now and

01:06:19.200 probably credit my parents with you know an upbringing and incredible educational opportunities

01:06:23.580 and that sense of purpose and duty but and at the risk of sounding old-fashioned here

01:06:29.980 that has given me such a drive a passion a sense of energy to to to make these decisions and to

01:06:39.420 not even in some respect you know think twice about them and a commitment to to speaking up

01:06:45.540 for the truth and and real international law is part and parcel of that so maybe we need to

01:06:51.920 regroup in a decade or two and you can ask me the question again uh because you know famously

01:06:57.100 what you see from here you don't see from there but um no i i count myself extremely blessed to

01:07:03.940 say um you know unless we're talking about i wish i wouldn't have eaten that cupcake no no i meant

01:07:10.140 big existential we're talking about big existential things no touch wood um you know so far so good

01:07:16.280 wonderful and by the way the fact that you you you gave a shout out to your parents

01:07:20.540 it's hardly sloppy I think you know I you know I think you met like you did meet my children

01:07:25.820 and one of one of my most uh proud moments and and I've mentioned this before but it's worth

01:07:32.100 repeating was when my daughter was 12 years old and I had just given this you know big speech in

01:07:38.460 front of I don't know maybe 1500 people and it was you know very well received and as I walked

01:07:42.920 off stage and you know my my family was sitting there in the in the first row my daughter came

01:07:47.960 up to me, hugged me, and she said, I'm so proud of you. Well, I actually cared about that sentence

01:07:53.080 more than I do when some fancy schmancy colleague from Stanford says, oh, I love your work.

01:07:59.520 That's, you know, that's fine. But for your daughter, your soon to be then teenage daughter

01:08:05.340 to say she's proud of you. So I think if your parents end up listening to this, they'll be

01:08:09.580 very, very happy. On that point, I absolutely have to tell you that when they recently told

01:08:15.520 me that they were proud of me it was for the invitation to appear on your show oh

01:08:19.520 please say hello to them uh last question i'm very touched by that thank you uh anything that

01:08:27.800 you want to promote oh natasha's working on the on her book she's doing this is your time to plug

01:08:34.960 yeah that is a little way off because there aren't enough hours in the day um but but hopefully it

01:08:40.900 will ultimately one day be forthcoming.

01:08:42.620 I think the only plug that I can make,

01:08:44.960 and it's one that I make routinely,

01:08:47.020 is to encourage people to have the courage

01:08:49.500 of their convictions and to speak up.

01:08:51.760 It really takes a village, especially to push back

01:08:54.060 on the misinformation phenomenon that we're witnessing.

01:08:57.240 My commitment is to coming and to speaking

01:09:00.040 as much as I can around the world

01:09:01.440 and to providing people with the tools

01:09:03.520 and the confidence to stand up for the truth

01:09:06.240 on these very pressing matters.

01:09:08.240 And I fundamentally believe that this battle

01:09:10.560 is only really just beginning so uh if uh if i can ask people to you know take heart and to uh be

01:09:17.380 prepared to to to enter that particular battle then uh then that would be my i suppose you know

01:09:23.160 call to intellectual arms perhaps beautiful let me just end it with this then we could say goodbye

01:09:28.480 offline uh you know when we stop the recording i always implore people to you know i i asked them

01:09:36.480 I implore them to activate their inner honey badger.

01:09:39.460 I've had many honey badgers on the show.

01:09:42.060 Let's add this new one, this British honey badger.

01:09:45.700 That's a lot better looking than this old honey badger.

01:09:49.380 So people, you don't have to, you know,

01:09:52.920 have the biggest platform in the world.

01:09:55.520 You don't have to be the tallest, biggest person.

01:09:58.060 You can be a ferocious, fierce defender of principles.

01:10:02.040 And I've had the privilege and honor

01:10:03.740 to speaking to one today.

01:10:04.860 Thank you so much, Natasha, for coming on.

01:10:06.480 stay on the line so we can say goodbye. Thanks, Gad. Cheers.

The Saad Truth with Dr. Saad - April 01, 2026

Natasha Hausdorff, Ardent Legal Defender of Israel (The Saad Truth with Dr. Saad_979)

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