The Saad Truth with Dr. Saad - Nicholas Wade - Author of The Origin of Politics (The Saad Truth with Dr. Saad_891)

00:00:00.000 I am delighted to report that I have joined, as a visiting scholar, the Declaration of

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00:01:04.600 Hi, everybody.

00:01:05.600 Today, I've got another fantastic guest with me, one who shares many of my loves towards

00:01:13.180 evolutionary theory.

00:01:14.180 Nicholas Wade.

00:01:15.180 How are you doing, sir?

00:01:16.180 I'm doing fine.

00:01:17.180 Thanks.

00:01:18.180 How are you?

00:01:19.180 Very good.

00:01:20.180 Thank you.

00:01:21.180 Not your current book in a second, but just to give people a sense of who you are.

00:01:26.180 You are a science editor and science journalist, science writer.

00:01:31.180 You've written several books.

00:01:32.180 Your most recent one just came out earlier in September, The Origin of Politics, looking at

00:01:38.180 politics from an evolutionary perspective.

00:01:40.180 While you've written other books, I'd like to just focus on the evolutionary-based ones.

00:01:44.180 You've written Before Dawn, The Faith Instinct, applying evolutionary theory to study religion,

00:01:50.960 which we can certainly get into, and then A Troublesome Inheritance, which got you into

00:01:56.080 all sorts of trouble.

00:01:57.580 Anything else you want to add about your bio before we delve into your work?

00:02:03.040 No, that's about it.

00:02:04.480 Okay.

00:02:04.880 So, let's start with your most recent book.

00:02:08.260 You are trying to apply various evolutionary principles to how societies organize themselves

00:02:14.720 in terms of political systems.

00:02:16.880 Take it away, sir.

00:02:19.000 Well, our political scientists have totally forgotten the fact that we're biological creatures,

00:02:24.440 and they dismiss the possibility that evolution might, in fact, have a dominant role in their

00:02:31.520 subject matter, which is the politics of human societies.

00:02:34.840 So, I think it's clear that evolution does play a very important role, notably in that

00:02:40.520 it sets up the structure of society for us, starting with the family, which is the basic

00:02:45.840 unit, the different sex roles, the tribal organization, succeeded now by the nation state, and the human

00:02:56.640 behaviors that support the major institutions of society.

00:03:00.240 So, genetics has a very strong role in shaping human societies and the politics that flow

00:03:07.060 from it.

00:03:08.880 And it's a great mistake, which I think we are making in spades right now, to assume the

00:03:15.080 genetics isn't there, that we can organize society on any ideological terms we want, paying

00:03:23.320 no attention to the genetic shaping of human nature.

00:03:28.940 Well, and of course, not being aware that we are constrained by our human nature, as E.O.

00:03:36.880 Wilson, whom I know that you're well aware of, and we can get into some of his work, you

00:03:41.640 know, he said that genes hold culture on a leash, right?

00:03:45.780 It may be a long leash.

00:03:46.940 And so, I think it stems from the fact that the social constructivists, which consists of

00:03:51.800 most social scientists, believe in the tabula rasa premise, we're empty slated.

00:03:57.520 And so, I could create products that might be incongruent with human nature, but I can

00:04:02.400 teach you to appreciate those products.

00:04:04.620 I can create a political system that is contrary to human nature, communism, but I can teach

00:04:10.060 you to be congruent with that.

00:04:11.840 Whereas you're coming along and saying, no, there is a thing called human nature.

00:04:15.160 There is a thing called biological imperatives.

00:04:18.080 And if you create political systems that are inconsistent with that, we're going to get

00:04:21.580 into trouble.

00:04:22.120 Does that sound about right?

00:04:23.680 Yeah, that's exactly right.

00:04:25.000 I think the leading example has been Marxism, which has started off with the desire to abolish

00:04:31.800 the family, the basic units of human society.

00:04:34.940 And that gets lots of things about human nature wrong.

00:04:38.440 The idea that people will sacrifice for the sake of society, will be happy with sort

00:04:44.880 of equal pay.

00:04:47.700 All these things ignore the incentives that evolution has built into human nature, which

00:04:54.720 explains why Marxist societies have been such a failure in economic terms.

00:05:02.860 Indeed.

00:05:03.160 Going back to E.O.

00:05:04.900 Wilson, I'm sure you know this quote in question, although he wasn't the only one to offer such

00:05:12.620 a quip.

00:05:13.080 There are other entomologists who offered it.

00:05:15.460 Actually, in my forthcoming book, I have a whole list of entomologists who argued against

00:05:20.740 using ant societies as the optimal model for human societies.

00:05:25.220 But I know you know this quote, but for our listeners and viewers, when he was asked,

00:05:29.700 he was a social ant specialist, when he was asked about, you know, what do you think of

00:05:36.200 the idea of socialism slash communism?

00:05:38.200 He said, you know, great idea, wrong species.

00:05:41.160 I mean, it's almost impossible for me to think of a greater quote from a scientist that packs

00:05:48.980 so much profundity with so few words.

00:05:52.260 Do you agree?

00:05:54.040 It's a very, very lapidary quote.

00:05:56.700 Indeed.

00:05:57.340 So now you know of E.O.

00:06:00.940 Wilson from the days of his horrifying sociobiology book, where all the people came out, came after

00:06:07.340 him.

00:06:07.740 I was just a little child who had just moved from Lebanon to Canada when in the 70s, these

00:06:14.060 things were happening.

00:06:15.000 Does it leave you with great consternation?

00:06:17.920 And does it leave you disconcerted that the same battles that you were, you know, documenting

00:06:24.600 with E.O. Wilson in the 70s?

00:06:26.560 You now have to write a book about it in 2025.

00:06:32.000 It is horrifying.

00:06:33.460 The battle lines haven't changed.

00:06:36.440 The fact is that the idea of a permanent, fixed human nature that cannot be altered is

00:06:44.740 totally at odds with the Marxist idea that society can be organized any way in intellectual

00:06:51.580 wants.

00:06:52.720 And that's why this battle has never been settled.

00:06:57.900 Maybe one day people will understand that human nature does exist.

00:07:01.700 It's not going away.

00:07:02.820 And that we need to organize our societies in consonance with human nature and human behavior.

00:07:08.160 I'm going to offer, regrettably, with great regret, a much more pessimistic view of what

00:07:14.500 you just said.

00:07:15.560 I think, and there's been others who've written about this, I think that the resistance to

00:07:24.040 applying evolutionary theory to human phenomena is itself an evolutionary phenomenon.

00:07:32.780 So meaning we will need the next generation of Nicholas Wade and the one after and ad infinitum

00:07:41.780 to write these books because there are certain features, while fully veridical and fully, you

00:07:49.700 know, supported by the evidence, it's very hard for most people to accept these realities,

00:07:56.280 right?

00:07:56.640 I would like to wake up as a parent thinking every day when my child is born, that if only

00:08:02.920 I could identify the right schedule of reinforcement, he could be the next Lionel Messi.

00:08:08.440 He could be the next Isaac Newton.

00:08:10.400 That's a lot more hopeful for me as a parent than to say, look, you know, you're a Jewish guy

00:08:15.920 from Lebanon.

00:08:16.740 You're not very tall.

00:08:17.720 The likelihood of your son being in the NBA is restricted by the fact that you're probably

00:08:23.480 not going to be producing tall children.

00:08:25.420 So am I incorrect in being this pessimistic or we will have to be having these battles

00:08:33.420 forevermore?

00:08:35.280 Well, there's another E.O.

00:08:36.640 Wilson quote.

00:08:37.380 I didn't have the words exactly right to the effect of the human mind has been shaped to

00:08:43.280 believe in gods, not in evolutionary biology.

00:08:46.500 Exactly.

00:08:46.940 That's why Darwin's theory, I think, has always presented a challenge to our ideas of who we

00:08:55.580 are.

00:08:55.880 In the 19th century, it was its challenge to religion.

00:08:59.280 In the 20th, it's the challenge to political theorists on the left.

00:09:04.940 There's that saying that the parents of one child are environmentalists, but the parents of

00:09:12.020 two children are geneticists because they see how strongly the role of genetics comes

00:09:19.020 to play in the way children grow up and shape their character.

00:09:23.140 And more specifically, if the second plus child happens to cover both sexes, yes, you and

00:09:30.680 I believe that there are only two sexes. 0.99

00:09:32.540 I understand that we haven't caught up with the progressive notion that there are 873.

00:09:37.060 But if we assume that Darwin was right, that there were only the male and female phenotype

00:09:41.400 for a moment, I've had children of both sexes, and it does seem as though there are innate

00:09:48.540 sex differences.

00:09:49.320 But it probably won't surprise you, Nicholas, to know that as someone who has been straddling

00:09:55.220 the social sciences slash natural sciences, almost all of my social sciences colleagues,

00:10:01.100 most still today, think that it is absolute Nazi quackery for me to argue that there are innate

00:10:08.400 sex differences.

00:10:09.200 It's amazing how far off the rails academics can go.

00:10:15.780 It's the herd instinct, I guess, and you just follow where you think you need to go.

00:10:22.180 It's very uniform.

00:10:24.520 It's a very homogeneous community, I think, in that sense, because academics, I apologize

00:10:30.060 for criticizing your profession, but they depend more than most people, I think, on the

00:10:37.300 goodwill of their fellows.

00:10:39.020 Because you need your peers to vote positively in those peer review committees giving out federal

00:10:47.060 grants.

00:10:48.360 You need their support in writing recommendations for your students and accepting your papers

00:10:54.620 in journals.

00:10:55.260 So you're very reliant on what your peers think of you.

00:11:00.900 And in that sense, you're not independent at all.

00:11:03.980 So people wrongly think, wrongly have a vision, I think, of academics as being bold, fearless

00:11:08.840 thinkers because they're protected by tenure from the government.

00:11:13.540 But the government's not the threat.

00:11:15.840 It's their own fellows who are the threat. 0.99

00:11:19.380 And therefore, they tend to be very conformist on even on absurd issues like the one you mentioned

00:11:25.300 of believing that there's no biological basis to sex or race or anything else.

00:11:31.880 That's perfectly stated.

00:11:33.700 And I'll add another point.

00:11:35.460 I mean, you're talking about some of the obstacles that occur because of the institution of science.

00:11:41.900 But I would even push it further back in the causal chain.

00:11:45.340 So I think that there is a self-selection bias in academia to pick wimpy people, right?

00:11:52.920 So no, no, but I mean, I'm saying it in my typical kind of jocular manner, but I'm being

00:11:58.140 deadly serious.

00:11:59.640 I was fortunate enough to have been also a competitive soccer player.

00:12:06.100 So I covered both the brawn and the brains.

00:12:09.900 And therefore, it is totally within my innate temperament and disposition to understand competition.

00:12:17.420 It's just part of who I am.

00:12:18.480 I have green eyes.

00:12:19.460 I'm also a honey badger.

00:12:20.940 Whereas most academics are afraid of their shadow.

00:12:24.160 So they may be very brilliant, but you are not selecting people who by temperament,

00:12:29.640 are Navy SEALs.

00:12:31.800 You're selecting people.

00:12:33.520 And I know I'm saying those words, not you, so you won't get the hate mail.

00:12:36.760 I call academics the invertebrate castrati. 0.99

00:12:40.120 Not only do they not have spines, they don't have testicles, whether they're male or female. 0.92

00:12:45.780 And so what you end up, it's a double whammy. 0.96

00:12:48.280 So what you said is true, but I'm already coming into the game being a very weakling, meek guy.

00:12:54.560 Therefore, I'm not going to be the one who stands up and says, what are you talking about?

00:12:58.400 Men can menstruate.

00:12:59.480 What kind of nonsense is that?

00:13:01.640 And I mean, believe me, Nicholas, I've been a professor for 32 years.

00:13:05.160 So I mean, I inhabit the ecosystem.

00:13:07.180 And I'm undoubtedly, with all due modesty, the most outspoken professor alive today.

00:13:14.440 So is there a chance?

00:13:17.560 I mean, you've both been sort of within academics, but outside of academia.

00:13:22.340 From your perspective, is there a chance that we can alter this?

00:13:26.580 Or it's just an indelible feature of academia?

00:13:29.220 Well, I think, at least from the present perspective, it's kind of indelible.

00:13:40.320 As long as you have people competing for government grants, there's going to be a sort of strong pressure for conformity.

00:13:48.000 Now, if we did away with government grants and academics had to raise their funds from private benefactors, that will give you a diversity of sources and might allow much more independence in academic thinking.

00:14:08.000 That's one solution that occurs to me off the top of my head.

00:14:10.740 Interesting.

00:14:12.220 Had you, way back when you were sort of tracing the trajectory of your own career, was there ever an inkling of going to academia?

00:14:21.100 And if yes, why did you leave?

00:14:23.220 And if no, why didn't you ever entertain it?

00:14:28.560 I was very interested in science when I was a student, but I never wanted to be a scientist.

00:14:34.700 I just wanted to know about it.

00:14:36.240 And so that sort of left journalism as the obvious profession for me.

00:14:42.000 And so I've always been a journalist.

00:14:46.060 But of course, writing about science means one's talking to academics every day.

00:14:52.460 So that's why I've been close to academia, but never inside it.

00:14:57.400 OK, well, I want to just cover a few more things about this book, but I also want to go to your other books.

00:15:02.560 So let me just put it up again for people.

00:15:04.180 It just came out earlier in September.

00:15:06.400 The Origin of Politics people go and get it.

00:15:08.740 What is something that one or more things that you found out while doing the research for this book that really surprised you?

00:15:18.120 That were, oh, my God, I would have never imagined this, if any.

00:15:21.140 Does anything come up, come to mind?

00:15:22.540 I think the thing that most interested me was the research I did on the kibbutzium in Israel.

00:15:33.100 It's so funny that you were going to say this.

00:15:34.900 Forgive me for interrupting, because I was going to talk about this next.

00:15:38.800 So I love that you said that.

00:15:39.940 Go ahead.

00:15:40.260 Oh, great.

00:15:40.400 I mean, it is one of the most fascinating social experiments you can think of.

00:15:45.960 And its founders were, you could call them crazy, but they were visionaries and they were generally trying to create a new world in which everyone was equal.

00:15:54.580 The power of the patriarchy would be eliminated because a woman and children would not be dependent on the father anymore. 0.95

00:16:06.480 They'd be dependent on the kibbutz and everyone would be paid equal. 0.98

00:16:11.960 I mean, it's a sort of, it's an egalitarian dream and good for them for trying very, very hard to put it into practice.

00:16:19.980 And the kibbutz, because of the enthusiasm and dedication of the founders, they did last for at least a generation.

00:16:29.960 But it was only when the second generation came into power who looked at things differently, that human nature sort of reasserted itself.

00:16:41.460 And we found that all the ideals of the founders, wonderful as they were in principle, simply didn't work in practice.

00:16:48.980 And this was a very clear and decisive experiment.

00:16:54.220 It's a pity that its lesson has not been more widely learned, but it's still there for anyone who wants to study it.

00:17:02.680 I'm not sure if you covered this in your book, so forgive me if you haven't.

00:17:06.160 I didn't pick it up.

00:17:07.800 Are you familiar with the Westermark effect?

00:17:10.600 Yeah, sure.

00:17:11.300 Yeah.

00:17:11.740 Do you want to explain it or would you like me to build on what you just said?

00:17:14.760 You can take it away.

00:17:15.980 You're the guest.

00:17:16.820 Well, it's one of the most fascinating side lights that came out of the kibbutz effect. 0.86

00:17:25.060 And it's settled a big argument between Freud, who thought that incest was, that incest taboo was pretty cultural.

00:17:34.100 And was he Swedish or Norwegian anthropologist, Edvard Westermark, who thought it was biological?

00:17:44.620 So the early kibbutzniks noticed a very strange phenomenon that people being brought up in the same little group of students, it's called a kibbutz.

00:17:58.400 So people educated in the same kibbutz, never married one another.

00:18:04.360 Now, no one was telling them they couldn't do this.

00:18:06.860 It just sort of turned out that if you've been raised in the same kibbutz with someone, you did not view them in any romantic way.

00:18:15.740 And it seems clear, in fact, the kibbutz members were viewing each other as siblings. 0.65

00:18:20.520 And very probably there's some neural direction that says to us, if you grew up under the same roof with this person, they are not a suitable marriage partner.

00:18:36.120 And that is how biologically we avoid incest, which, of course, leads to inbreeding depression.

00:18:43.100 So this is a great, another great experimental result that came out of the kibbutz event and told us that, yes, the incest taboo is biological.

00:18:53.880 It's engraved in our genes.

00:18:56.060 Westermark was right.

00:18:57.580 Freud was wrong.

00:18:59.760 Beautifully explained.

00:19:00.680 Actually, in this book right here, my first book ever, which was an academic book called The Evolutionary Basis of Consumption, I mentioned the Westermark effect in the context of explaining, you know, the interaction between, you know, nature and nurture and genes and the environment and so on.

00:19:19.600 And so the Westermark effect is a manifestation of an if-then rule that is ontogenetic, right?

00:19:26.500 So if raised together, then sexual revulsion towards the person with whom you raised.

00:19:33.360 Now, in very rare cases, it ends up misfiring, as per the kibbutz, misfiring in quotes, in that the brain assumes that in 99.9% of cases where people are raised together of roughly the same age, they're going to be siblings.

00:19:49.600 But in some cases, it ends up being that despite the fact that you've got 15-year-old kids who should be full of libidinal drive and hormonal drive, they look at all these other people who are unrelated to them and say, I don't want to have sex with this person.

00:20:04.020 And so that's a perfect demonstration.

00:20:05.960 But again, I hate to go back to my earlier pessimism.

00:20:08.860 I explained this a million times to a million people, some of whom are my colleagues with all the big titles, and they're completely impervious to anything I say, because they are so committed to the tabula rasa, social constructive perspective.

00:20:22.760 All right, let's move on.

00:20:24.600 And we can come back, of course, to this book.

00:20:26.220 One that I think people would want to hear about is just because people are interested in religion, and we recently had the horrible assassination of Charlie Kirk, who was a personal friend of mine, who is someone who certainly has helped in reviving religion.

00:20:40.940 Tell us about the faith instinct and how we would tackle religion, the existence of religion, from an evolutionary perspective.

00:20:50.220 Well, if you look at religion, it's very strange, it's very sort of strange human behavior. 0.58

00:21:00.660 And also, it's very costly, because it requires a lot of time, sometimes a lot of money.

00:21:06.920 And so you have to ask, why is it that every known society in the world throughout history has had a religion?

00:21:13.760 And not only that, but the religion, at least until recent times, has played a very dominant role in society.

00:21:23.120 So if something so costly is also universal, it's a very strong candidate for having a genetic, an evolutionary basis.

00:21:33.720 And I think it's fairly obvious what that evolutionary basis is, which is simply that religion helps a society survive in many ways, starting with the fact that it gets everyone reading off of the same page.

00:21:48.140 So you feel a sense of togetherness, and it's the basis of social cohesion, which, of course, is very important, both for maintaining internal order and morality, and also for galvanizing the society to face its enemies, if necessary, in battle.

00:22:04.740 So I think that's why all societies have religion, and it's like language, in that there's a genetic basis, but each society develops it culturally in a different way.

00:22:18.320 So all languages are completely very different from each other. 1.00

00:22:22.600 Religions tend to be very different from each other because of their cultural element, but the genetic element stays the same and is universal.

00:22:31.680 So let me add to that.

00:22:33.660 So the argument that you just gave would fit within the adaptation explanation of religion, which would be a la David Sloan Wilson with his group selectionism for religion.

00:22:49.340 There are two groups.

00:22:51.040 One group has higher religiosity.

00:22:53.600 The other one doesn't.

00:22:54.720 By virtue of their religiosity, and in line with what you said, they have greater coherence, greater delineation between in-group and out-group members and other very earthly reasons, and therefore members of the high religiosity group are likely to out-survive those from the others.

00:23:11.900 So that's the group selectionist argument.

00:23:13.480 There's another one, which I suspect that you're very familiar with, but I wonder what you think of it.

00:23:19.180 It's the exaptation argument.

00:23:21.700 The exaptation argument is the one that argues that something exists because it's a byproduct of evolution, not because it is itself adaptive.

00:23:30.220 So Pascal Boyer, who is an evolutionary psychologist slash anthropologist, has written a book where he argues that, no, it's not that religion offers an adaptive advantage.

00:23:44.600 It's that it is piggybacking on neuronal systems or computational systems that evolve for other purposes.

00:23:52.360 So, for example, my coalitional psychology of viewing the world as blue team versus red team is already innate in me.

00:24:00.880 Now, here comes religion piggybacking on that penchant by saying, hey, there are Jews and Goy. 0.97

00:24:07.580 There are the believers and the infidels, the Kuffar. 1.00

00:24:11.180 Now, do you think there is a bit of both explanations, adaptation and exaptation, or do you think it's largely the adaptive argument that wins the race?

00:24:22.280 Well, I certainly like the adaptive argument.

00:24:24.700 I think Boyer is saying that as an exaptation, it's not genetic.

00:24:34.620 That is his brief, I think.

00:24:36.880 He's saying it's just an accident.

00:24:38.600 Yeah, it's a byproduct.

00:24:39.580 All right.

00:24:41.100 Well, if he's saying it's a genetic byproduct, I don't have a big quarrel with him.

00:24:47.040 If he's saying it's not genetic, I would say, well, why is religion so universal, even though it's so costly?

00:24:56.340 And can you not see all the very important functions that religion does, in fact, provide?

00:25:02.360 I mean, it's easy to see the central importance of religion in history.

00:25:08.460 So why would you want to sort of shuffle it off as a kind of accident?

00:25:13.420 No, it's so beneficial.

00:25:16.480 Why should it not have a genetic basis?

00:25:19.760 Can I offer an explanation that is not rooted?

00:25:23.400 I mean, it is, in a sense, rooted in an evolutionary mechanism, our desire to thwart mortality, right?

00:25:30.600 And survive forever.

00:25:31.940 So if I have high cholesterol, and if we believe that cholesterol is correlated to heart disease,

00:25:38.040 I can go see a physician, he or she gives me a pill, reduces my LDL scores, all is good.

00:25:45.060 If I have diabetes, here's insulin shot, boom.

00:25:48.340 Well, I've got this other really major problem, and it's called we are on a death sentence.

00:25:53.640 And here I am sitting with the lovely Nicholas Wade.

00:25:56.220 I don't want the party to end.

00:25:57.740 I can't imagine that the party is going to end.

00:25:59.960 That problem has existed since time immemorial.

00:26:04.080 And as far as we know, we're the only animal that has the meta-knowledge of knowing that there is a finitude to our existence.

00:26:12.660 Well, here is a pill.

00:26:14.100 It's called religion, which I can take.

00:26:16.360 And the second that I take it, guess what?

00:26:18.060 The problem is solved.

00:26:20.220 Could it be as, do you think that at the most basal root, that's what it is?

00:26:26.020 Well, it seems to me that's more a part of the cultural aspect of religion.

00:26:33.480 And religion has played a much greater role in our culture than it does now.

00:26:37.800 And it used to be the explanation for everything, for why the sun shines or the rain falls,

00:26:43.360 and also for why people die and the consolations that can be offered for that.

00:26:48.800 All that is the cultural side of religion.

00:26:51.520 And it's the sort of the personal side of religion, which I think is of little interest to evolution.

00:26:57.440 Evolution is interested in the social function of religion, and it's part of creating powerful social cohesion.

00:27:06.500 So I think the pill you mentioned that obliterates your fear of mortality is part of the cultural accessories of religion.

00:27:20.080 Fair enough.

00:27:20.480 All right, let's talk about, arguably, and you'll tell me if I'm wrong, the book that has brought you the most heartache in terms of critics was the Troublesome Inheritance.

00:27:32.320 I don't have it in front of me.

00:27:32.880 Is that what it's called?

00:27:33.860 Yes.

00:27:34.460 All right.

00:27:35.580 Maybe walk us through that.

00:27:37.240 How did you respond?

00:27:39.340 I mean, one of the things that when you're in the public eye is you receive a lot of blowback.

00:27:44.240 If I say the sun is out today, people are going to hate me.

00:27:47.320 If I say the sun is not out today, people are going to hate me.

00:27:50.740 And so never mind dealing with more difficult subjects like, you know, racial differences, which is completely forbidden knowledge and certainly in the social sciences.

00:27:59.020 So walk us through those minefields.

00:28:04.120 And in terms of your personhood, were you able to handle it well?

00:28:08.620 Were you taking Valiant to try to calm down?

00:28:12.620 Walk us through that story.

00:28:13.640 Well, it's very simple.

00:28:16.560 When I was a reporter on the science section of the Times, my job was to cover the genome.

00:28:25.900 So the Beatles started off with the interesting race between Venter and the government to sequence the genome.

00:28:32.680 And then a few years later, the results started coming out and they were fascinating, not least because they showed that as the human population spread out from Africa, just like any other species, it sort of differentiated into local adaptations, local populations.

00:28:52.300 So I thought, well, this is fascinating because it shows you, you know, written in the genome is a big part of the history of the human race.

00:28:58.820 It tells us, you know, what environmental challenges our ancestors were up against, how their genome changed in response.

00:29:06.180 You know, all that stuff of prehistory, which is completely lost to us otherwise, is written in the genome.

00:29:12.480 So why isn't everyone writing about it?

00:29:17.380 And the fact is that academics, as you mentioned, they're dead scared of the subject.

00:29:21.920 So they published these papers.

00:29:24.920 At first, the results about race were sort of in the forefront of the paper.

00:29:30.360 Then they got sort of pushed back to the appendices.

00:29:33.580 These are guys who are meant to be interested in the truth.

00:29:36.520 But no, not if it's inconvenient.

00:29:38.180 So anyway, as a journalist, one's always looking for stories and nothing's better than a story you can spin off from articles you've written already, because it's all half of it's in your head.

00:29:50.720 So I thought, well, there's a great story here in the biological differentiation of the human race as it's spread out from Africa.

00:30:01.200 The human species, I should say, into different subpopulations or what we call races.

00:30:06.300 So I wrote the book, maybe in a somewhat naive way, but it was simply, you know, the biology of, you know, why East Asians and Europeans have pale skin and have pale skin through entirely different genetic mechanisms.

00:30:23.400 And it laid out, you know, the chapter and verse for why the races differ to the mild extent they do.

00:30:30.540 And then I tried to, I felt I should try and give a sort of so what to the readers.

00:30:36.800 So I added a few historical chapters.

00:30:40.860 But basically the book was a sort of a summary of all the articles I've been writing for the Times for the previous five, ten years.

00:30:50.540 So when, you know, that's all the way is to the story, really, the book, the book came out and at first it was ignored.

00:30:59.860 But then it had a, it had a great review from Charles Murray in the New York Times.

00:31:04.800 Uh-oh.

00:31:06.080 I'm not in the New York Times, in the Wall Street Journal.

00:31:08.240 So this was a red rag to, to the left, I guess.

00:31:13.320 So the Times, from which I had retired a year before.

00:31:19.360 So, oh, well, now we have to review the book because Murray has praised it.

00:31:23.540 We must find someone to dump on it.

00:31:26.000 And then the sort of bandwagon started rolling.

00:31:30.280 And eventually some very large number of geneticists, I think a hundred or so, sort of wrote a letter at the Times saying, you know, how dare this journalist misappropriate our findings?

00:31:42.740 So they couldn't, I didn't need any Valium tablets.

00:31:47.340 I was just very amused by the whole episode because here were scientists who sort of live by the idea of nullity and verba, the Royal Society's motto, that you don't take anyone's word for it.

00:31:59.460 It's not authority that counts, it's the facts.

00:32:03.320 So here were these guys, they didn't have the facts because there were no mistakes they could find in my book.

00:32:08.680 But they were using the weight of their authority, 100 geneticists, to try and prove me wrong.

00:32:15.500 There's that nice story about Einstein being told that someone had written a book saying he was completely wrong.

00:32:31.740 And a large number of scientists said that were disagreeing with him.

00:32:36.020 Einstein said, well, no, one would be enough.

00:32:38.800 After all, if you don't have the facts, it just requires one person to, these guys didn't have the facts because my book, as far as I know, was a perfectly accurate description of the biology of race.

00:32:56.520 It's, it remains to me, it's now about 10 years old, but it remains to this day, the only book in the field that tells you what the genome says about human differentiation.

00:33:06.080 And it does own a completely non-racist way.

00:33:09.040 I don't say any race is superior to any other, which is a, which is a thought totally alien to evolutionary biology.

00:33:17.260 Exactly.

00:33:19.000 Well, a couple of points I want to say.

00:33:20.860 Number one, about Charles Murray.

00:33:22.420 For those of you who don't know, I'm speaking to the, to the audience.

00:33:26.720 He wrote a famous book, you know, with the sort of, what was it called?

00:33:30.980 The Bell Curve?

00:33:31.600 Was that, was that?

00:33:32.320 The Bell Curve, where that got him a lot of flack.

00:33:34.700 He's actually been on my show and he made it into my happiness book, which is the one right here that I'm pointing to.

00:33:42.280 Because at one point where I was talking about something that, you know, about, I think you mentioned even maybe in this book right here about assortative mating.

00:33:50.880 So I, I'm, I'm, I'm in the happiness book.

00:33:53.700 I'm saying that, look, one of the ways by which you could either increase your chances of being very happy in life or the opposite is to hopefully find the right partner.

00:34:01.800 And so I talk about birds of a feather flock together.

00:34:04.300 And in our conversation, he said, well, finding the right partner is very simple.

00:34:08.720 Find your best friend with, to whom you're sexually attracted.

00:34:12.580 I said, that's actually exactly correct.

00:34:15.660 So that's Charles Murray.

00:34:17.020 But going back to your book, I'm presuming that you're familiar with Philip Rushton.

00:34:24.420 Right.

00:34:25.140 Yeah.

00:34:25.400 So I'm going to tell you an incredible story.

00:34:27.520 Probably this is the first time you've heard.

00:34:28.960 I actually mentioned this in, in my forthcoming book where I'm talking about forbidden knowledge.

00:34:33.880 Right.

00:34:35.540 So in about 1996, so this is maybe two years after I finished my PhD, I was giving a lecture at the International Congress of Psychology, which that year happened to be in my hometown of Montreal.

00:34:49.400 And so I was, I was in a cognitive psychology session.

00:34:53.160 I was going to talk about, you know, the types of cognitive strategies that people come up with when they are facing time pressure and how do they make decisions under time pressure and so on.

00:35:03.240 So very non-controversial, very, you know, the sort of psychology decision-making stuff.

00:35:08.000 I walk into the session where I'm presenting and it must be packed with maybe 1500 people.

00:35:14.120 And I pick up this electricity in the air and I knew that they weren't there to see me.

00:35:19.960 I was two years out of my PhD.

00:35:21.620 Nobody knew who the hell I was.

00:35:23.100 So they weren't, they certainly weren't coming to see me.

00:35:25.380 And then I quickly realized why they were there because the speaker before me turns out to be Philip Rushton and he's putting up the, you know, here's the cranium size of black men, white men, black women, white women. 0.84

00:35:41.060 And as I now realize that this is happening, this was maybe the only time ever, I'm not someone who gets very afraid speaking in front of crowds, but I really had this sort of spike in my cortisol levels thinking I'm just going to get lynched by proxy.

00:35:56.520 So then he finishes his lecture and then quickly scurries out of there.

00:36:02.780 And about 1425 out of the 1500 people follow him to hopefully lynch him.

00:36:09.800 And this was the only time in life where I said, where I said, thank God that there's almost nobody here for me.

00:36:15.540 I was actually relieved that there were just a few people in this huge auditorium.

00:36:19.620 Have you ever met him?

00:36:22.040 Are there elements of his theories that you disagreed with or agreed with?

00:36:25.800 Because certainly in academia, you did it from the perspective of a journalist reporting on the science.

00:36:31.560 He was one of the only, you know, resident academics who would tackle race differences.

00:36:37.020 What are your thoughts on him, if any?

00:36:40.260 Well, I think he was very brave.

00:36:41.900 I haven't read his books and I didn't want to get into the kind of differences he was interested in.

00:36:52.260 And I just wanted to explore the genome and the genetics.

00:36:58.000 You know, I do think these things should be discussed.

00:37:00.940 It's unhealthy to sweep them under the rug.

00:37:03.600 It's much better to discuss race and IQ differences and whatever else anyone wants to bring up than to behave in this very sort of suppressive way that today's academic world does.

00:37:18.940 I just think it's a mistake.

00:37:20.940 And maybe we're at the end of it.

00:37:22.320 I don't know.

00:37:23.600 I mean, there is a bit of an auto correction, Nicholas.

00:37:26.660 But I don't think enough of one to suddenly have a new generation of super bold entrepreneurial academics.

00:37:33.900 And again, it goes back to my earlier point.

00:37:35.820 It's an issue of temperament.

00:37:37.280 There's the herd mentality.

00:37:38.480 There's conformity.

00:37:39.660 I mean, to get, here's an example I'm going to, and you could comment or not.

00:37:44.220 He's not an academic.

00:37:45.720 But Malcolm Gladwell, who's a very successful author in his own right, recently came out, you know, very tepidly saying,

00:37:52.720 oh, yes, I was cowed into taking the positions on trans that I did. 0.58

00:37:59.460 The amount of anger that that generated in me, because, I mean, how is it?

00:38:05.900 I mean, if you remember the Solomon-Ash experiments from the 1950s, are you familiar with those? 0.82

00:38:10.360 Do you know what the Solomon-Ash experiments are? 0.92

00:38:12.320 So the Solomon-Ash experiments, in my view, is arguably, and that's a big statement, 1.00

00:38:16.060 maybe the most beautiful psychology experiments ever conducted.

00:38:19.680 So he wanted to demonstrate, he, meaning Solomon-Ash, the power, the allure of group conformity,

00:38:27.120 even when it comes to stimuli that should be impossible for you to go along with the group.

00:38:33.340 And so what he did is he devised a very simple experiment.

00:38:36.480 I'm going to give you three lines here, A, B, C, that are different in length.

00:38:41.100 And I'm going to show you one other line here, X.

00:38:43.600 And I'm going to tell you, I'm going to ask you to say out loud, which of A, B, C is the same length as X?

00:38:50.820 And it's so obvious the way the stimuli are created, that short of you being on Mars or being congenitally blind,

00:38:57.920 you know what the answer is.

00:38:59.440 It's B that's the same as X. 0.91

00:39:01.160 But what he wants to show is that you can get people to conform to this hallucinatory reality.

00:39:07.340 So then what he does is he randomly chooses how people are going to sit.

00:39:13.000 But the first seven people in the lineup are really confederates.

00:39:17.320 They're pretending to be subjects, but they're really in on the experiment.

00:39:20.440 So the first person goes up and goes, oh, that's easy.

00:39:22.940 It's A, which is clearly wrong.

00:39:24.820 It's this line versus this line.

00:39:26.860 And the second person goes A.

00:39:28.780 So now you come to the eighth person.

00:39:31.080 And then the now, even if you had one person in the whole experiment who conformed, they would be worthy of study.

00:39:37.480 Well, how are you succumbing to this?

00:39:39.840 When you get a large number of people conforming, then that shows you how easy it is to conform.

00:39:46.060 And so I think academia is just one big orgiastic manifestation of the Solomon-Ash experiment.

00:39:53.700 That's not a good thing, Nicholas.

00:39:55.760 No, it's very bad for the advance of knowledge.

00:39:57.960 It's amazing how we learn new things as well.

00:40:02.720 Well, I think we do because it takes really bold, irreverent, outside-the-box thinkers to come up with the radical scientific innovations.

00:40:13.120 Most of the academics operate within very, very hyper-specialized silos.

00:40:19.300 I'm a stay-in-your-lane professor.

00:40:21.020 I know a lot about organic chemistry, about this particular thing.

00:40:25.200 And if you ask me to talk about art history, well, surely I can't, right?

00:40:30.700 Whereas we don't train academics to be bold, synthetic thinkers who seek consilience, to use a term that E.O. Wilson brought back into the vernacular.

00:40:42.300 Do you think that it is possible to break that mold and start teaching academics?

00:40:47.700 Again, I know you're from the outside, but maybe you do need an outside perspective.

00:40:51.540 Can we teach academics?

00:40:53.080 Yes, of course, specialization is important.

00:40:55.600 I need to know a lot about genetics to be able to be part of the team that mapped the human genome.

00:41:00.660 But I also need to be able to say something intelligent in other areas.

00:41:04.860 I need to be a big thinker.

00:41:06.220 Can we hope for that, or we are doomed for hyper-specialization?

00:41:09.060 Well, you know, I think we're doomed when you consider how few big thinkers there are.

00:41:17.400 I mean, E.O. Wilson was a big thinker.

00:41:20.720 Steve Pinker is a great guy for transcending boundaries.

00:41:27.120 But once you've named those, there are not very many others.

00:41:32.420 You couldn't have thrown in a Gadsad in there?

00:41:35.260 A Gadsad?

00:41:36.120 Yes, I would do my ego.

00:41:39.620 Well, there's three.

00:41:41.480 Pinker, Wilson, and Sat.

00:41:43.960 I mean, it's just very hard for academics to think outside the box.

00:41:49.100 I think, as I said before, I think it's a large part because their funding comes from within the box.

00:41:54.240 So, you know, there's a whole art in writing your grant proposal so that you're just a little adventurous, but not too much.

00:41:59.920 Because if you're too much, you'll get blackballed and, you know, one blackball defeats your chances.

00:42:06.140 I don't know how you encourage diversity of thought, which is, of course, the one thing universities don't have.

00:42:16.160 It's very depressing.

00:42:17.220 I think the whole story of universities in our country is very unappetizing.

00:42:25.160 The fact that they don't teach Western civilization, which is the core of our history and behavior and survival as a nation,

00:42:35.960 they abandon teaching that, which is their most primary obligation, you would think.

00:42:41.640 I think that's when, that's the start of their inglorious slide into waste, fraud, abuse, and anti-Semitism.

00:42:50.860 Anti-Semitism in universities.

00:42:52.740 I mean, it staggers the mind that this social pathology could erupt in universities of all places, and yet it has.

00:43:01.200 Well, it's, I mean, thank you for mentioning that, because you may or may not know I'm Jewish, and I've had to take a leave now for two years from my home university,

00:43:14.320 because as universities go, few are even remotely close to the truly debauchery, the orgiastic Jew hatred that you find at my university. 0.97

00:43:27.880 Although, of course, the senior administrator that spoke to me said, oh, no, there's absolutely no Jew hatred here.

00:43:32.260 And then, like, about a week or two later, the president of the university had to go in front of the parliament, the Canadian parliament,

00:43:39.380 to actually, you know, with great chagrin, admit that there was huge Jew hatred.

00:43:46.320 Do you have any ideas as to what has served, not to use the term of Malcolm Godwell, but I will be using it,

00:43:53.480 what has been the tipping point that has unleashed this monster again in the 21st century?

00:43:59.640 No, it's very puzzling, and it's very alarming.

00:44:05.100 I mean, it's alarming, it's alarming both for Jews, because they remember how even in societies where they were very well accepted and culturated,

00:44:14.320 like 19th, 20th century Germany, the beginnings of the Holocaust are in these, are in, you know,

00:44:23.880 openly expressed anti-Semitism, so that once that starts, it tends to build.

00:44:31.660 So it's very alarming for Jews.

00:44:34.520 It should be alarming for everyone else as well, both for that reason and because it's a sign of social pathology,

00:44:40.680 that there is something very unhealthy about a society's politics,

00:44:45.480 that it descends into anti-Semitism, which historically, I believe, tends to arise in sort of periods of disruption and disorder,

00:44:56.060 when people are looking for scapegoats, when they're sort of uncertain about the future.

00:45:01.520 So that's where anti-Semitism sort of really turns violent.

00:45:07.560 So it's a very important phenomenon, and I think a very alarming one.

00:45:12.540 Why it's occurred right now, it's hard to say.

00:45:15.380 I mean, the pretext is often the current wars, the post-October 7 war, wars that Israel has been obliged to fight,

00:45:27.000 but that's not, it seems to me that's just a cover for anti-Semitism,

00:45:32.820 because if you are solely concerned about the fate of the Palestinians,

00:45:36.440 you should be equally concerned about other refugees, such as the Uyghurs in China or the Ukrainians or whatever.

00:45:44.400 But no, it just seems to be Israel that is the focus of these complaints on university,

00:45:50.780 and therefore, one is, I think one is justified as seeing them as having a strong anti-Semitic component.

00:45:58.080 Where it comes from is just a puzzle to me.

00:46:00.820 I mean, there's this sort of long history of the fight between Judaism and Christianity,

00:46:08.820 which sort of began in the early days of the Roman Empire,

00:46:11.160 and sort of has carried over, I think, into Western civilization.

00:46:16.680 So that's always sort of there as a sort of feeder of anti-Semitic emotions.

00:46:22.220 I think primarily it's driven by greed and envy, because...

00:46:25.540 I was going to say exactly that, yes.

00:46:28.360 Yeah, I'm sorry, go ahead, finish.

00:46:30.600 Go ahead.

00:46:30.900 I think there's a very helpful analogy with the Chinese minority communities in East Asia,

00:46:38.160 like in sort of China, Thailand, Indonesia.

00:46:41.360 There have long been Chinese communities who've been very industrious.

00:46:46.660 They prosper, they become wealthy.

00:46:48.680 And then every so often, the ruling party, when they need a scapegoat,

00:46:52.220 will descend on the Chinese, have a Chinese massacre, expropriate their property, 0.99

00:46:56.300 and the Chinese will have to pick up and start again elsewhere. 0.69

00:47:00.840 So this is a very similar history to that of the Jews in Europe.

00:47:05.980 And I think it goes to one of the fundamental defects in human nature,

00:47:10.480 that we are very envious and malicious.

00:47:13.640 And envy will drive our attacks on any group who seems to be more successful than we are.

00:47:20.260 So I beautifully said, I'll just add one or two elements to what you said.

00:47:23.860 So because your explanation, although you've drawn the parallel with the Chinese

00:47:28.140 in the ecosystem that you mentioned, it doesn't explain why throughout history,

00:47:34.480 it should be specifically the Jews.

00:47:36.860 But I think I can offer an explanation.

00:47:39.520 So Amy Chua talks about market-dominant minorities,

00:47:43.860 of which the Chinese in the example that you gave would be one,

00:47:46.960 Armenians in some other cases are some,

00:47:48.860 and the Jews are everywhere that throughout human history.

00:47:51.720 So of course, there's the Christian-based Jew hatred, 0.92

00:47:54.780 there's the Islamic-based Jew hatred, 0.98

00:47:56.360 there's the academic left-based Jew hatred.

00:48:00.280 But irrespective of those sort of tribal forms of hate,

00:48:04.720 there is an indelible part in the architecture of the human mind,

00:48:08.900 and you mentioned that envy, right?

00:48:10.660 That's why in the Seven Deadly Sins, we have envy that's there.

00:48:13.560 That's why in the Ten Commandments, we have do not covet, right?

00:48:17.260 Which is driven, fueled by the emotion of envy. 0.99

00:48:20.360 Who is this bastard next to me who's got a prettier wife? 1.00

00:48:23.160 I don't like that, right? 0.99

00:48:24.580 Well, in any society that you could think of, throughout all of history,

00:48:28.940 Jews are always an astounding, minuscule minority, 1.00

00:48:33.820 and yet they are punching seven weight classes above their weight.

00:48:38.620 Now, that still doesn't explain fully.

00:48:42.360 So, but why?

00:48:43.140 What's the psychological mechanism?

00:48:45.420 And I'm going to offer it for you, Nicholas.

00:48:47.060 You ready?

00:48:47.960 Okay.

00:48:48.580 So there's something called the self-serving bias in psychology,

00:48:51.620 which basically is a means by which people attribute causality in their life,

00:48:58.040 specifically successes and failures.

00:49:00.780 Well, all successes are attributed internally.

00:49:04.660 So I did very well in my new business venture because I'm so smart,

00:49:10.380 and I just make good decisions.

00:49:11.860 Now, if I fail, I attribute it externally. 1.00

00:49:15.860 Well, it's because people are morons. 0.99

00:49:17.640 The consumers didn't understand my vision. 1.00

00:49:19.960 It's because the government put restrictions on me.

00:49:22.020 It's because God didn't want it.

00:49:23.880 Well, now that we know that for most people,

00:49:27.080 they engage in this type of bias, self-serving bias,

00:49:30.980 well, now if I give you on a silver platter

00:49:34.560 the ultimate external attribution for all your failures,

00:49:40.160 why did your business fail?

00:49:41.600 Well, who controls the banks?

00:49:43.340 It's the Jews. 1.00

00:49:44.180 That's why you didn't get the loan that you wanted,

00:49:47.580 and so on and so forth, right?

00:49:49.380 Why is your son transgender?

00:49:51.560 Well, because it's the Jews that create. 1.00

00:49:54.260 I mean, it doesn't matter if the explanation is correct or not,

00:49:57.540 but because they are incredibly successful and a very small minority,

00:50:03.280 they are top of mind.

00:50:04.640 They are the ones that I'm going to go to look for all of my failures.

00:50:08.780 What are your thoughts on this explanation,

00:50:10.340 and when do I book my ticket to Stockholm to receive the Nobel Prize?

00:50:13.340 Yes, I think that's a very good explanation. 0.78

00:50:17.960 I mean, the Jews are so often, the Jews are the ideal scapegoat, aren't they? 1.00

00:50:22.880 Because they're a small minority.

00:50:25.140 Through much of history, they've kept themselves distinct with inbreeding,

00:50:31.620 and they're very successful for reasons we can discuss,

00:50:39.120 but it probably has something to do.

00:50:40.620 At some point in their history, they developed a considerable IQ,

00:50:46.200 which obviously helps you to be successful.

00:50:49.120 And there's a good theory as to when that was.

00:50:53.780 But the fact that they're distinct and successful means that they will,

00:51:02.200 they're the obvious scapegoat to choose when things go wrong,

00:51:05.900 both for individuals maybe and certainly for states.

00:51:09.800 Beautiful.

00:51:10.640 Last question, and then we could say goodbye offline formally.

00:51:14.820 I don't always ask this question, but I often do,

00:51:19.540 because I think it really says something about whichever guess I have on.

00:51:23.400 So in my happiness book, I talk about, in one of the chapters,

00:51:26.800 about try to live a life that when you're sitting on the proverbial porch

00:51:31.620 and thinking back about your life, you don't have many regrets.

00:51:35.900 And of course, there are two types of regrets.

00:51:37.980 Actually, the guy who really did a lot of work in this area

00:51:41.200 was one of my psychology professors and my PhD, Thomas Gilovich.

00:51:44.820 So there's the regret due to actions and regrets due to inaction, right?

00:51:49.620 I regret that I cheated on my wife and now my marriage is over.

00:51:52.960 Regret due to inaction.

00:51:54.360 I never wanted to be a pediatrician.

00:51:56.820 I only did that because that's what was expected of me,

00:51:58.920 but I've always wanted to be an architect.

00:52:00.900 Now, it may or may not surprise you, Nicholas,

00:52:02.700 that for most people, the biggest looming regret in their life

00:52:06.000 is the latter, the one due to inaction.

00:52:08.980 So if I were to ask Mr. Wade right now,

00:52:12.340 not that hopefully you still have many, many more years to go.

00:52:15.260 If I were to ask you, what is the one or two biggest regrets

00:52:19.300 that loom in your life, what would they be?

00:52:22.160 And would you care sharing them with us?

00:52:25.280 I don't think I can give you a good answer

00:52:27.140 because I just haven't thought about your question.

00:52:29.800 And off the top of my head, probably wouldn't be well considered.

00:52:33.500 I see.

00:52:34.780 Well, already the fact that you don't have something locked

00:52:38.260 and loaded and ready as a response maybe is good news

00:52:42.160 in that the fact that you have to think about

00:52:44.100 what would be something that you regret

00:52:45.580 means that maybe you've so far lived a pretty fulfilled life.

00:52:50.940 Well, one has to make the best of one's opportunities, I suppose.

00:52:54.460 So it doesn't matter if you never become as rich

00:52:59.140 as Bill Gates or Elon Musk,

00:53:01.040 as long as you became as rich as your circumstances allowed

00:53:05.160 or had as many children as you were able.

00:53:10.460 I guess that's the thing that makes for a fulfilled life.

00:53:13.580 Indeed.

00:53:14.860 Thank you so much for coming on.

00:53:16.440 It's a real pleasure to have you.

00:53:18.340 People, please go out and pick up The Origin of Politics.

00:53:22.300 Fantastic book.

00:53:23.720 Truly delightful to talk to you.

00:53:25.200 Please stay on the line so we can say goodbye

00:53:26.520 and come back anytime you'd like.

00:53:28.620 Thanks, Ken.

00:53:29.380 Cheers.

The Saad Truth with Dr. Saad - October 02, 2025

Nicholas Wade - Author of The Origin of Politics (The Saad Truth with Dr. Saad_891)

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