The Saad Truth with Dr. Saad - When Empathy Becomes Suicidal - My Appearance on the Atlas Society Podcast (The Saad Truth with Dr. Saad_1023)

00:00:00.000 Welcome to the 309th episode of Objectively Speaking.

00:00:04.940 I'm Jag, CEO of the Atlas Society.

00:00:08.160 I'm very excited to have returning guest,

00:00:12.000 Professor Gad Saad, join us to talk about his fabulous new book,

00:00:17.860 Suicidal Empathy, Dying to be Kind.

00:00:22.320 Gad, thanks for joining us.

00:00:24.520 So good to be with you again, Jag.

00:00:26.980 And of course, thank you for also joining us.

00:00:30.000 at Galt's Gulch in San Diego.

00:00:32.240 The students gave very high marks to that discussion.

00:00:37.020 For those who have been living under a rock,

00:00:40.280 you may not, you might need another refresher.

00:00:44.120 Dr. Saad is a professor

00:00:46.600 and an evolutionary behavioral scientist.

00:00:49.900 He previously joined us on Objectively Speaking

00:00:53.040 to discuss his last book, The Parasitic Mind,

00:00:56.500 how infectious ideas are killing common sense so uh god is suicidal empathy one of those

00:01:04.820 infectious ideas or is it an evolutionary impulse that's gone haywire that's a great question so

00:01:11.700 it's the parasitic ideas that eventually lead to the proclivity for societal empathy that's why i'm

00:01:19.380 so glad that in the introduction you you referenced both the parasitic mind and suicidal empathy

00:01:24.180 because they're really collectively part of a singular narrative. We are both a thinking and

00:01:31.040 a feeling animal. In order for someone to hijack your capacity to reason, they have to hijack both

00:01:39.020 your cognitive system and your affective system. The parasitic mind described what happens to your

00:01:45.320 cognitive system when it is parasitized. And then I complete the story by explaining what happens

00:01:52.240 once your affective, your emotional system is parasitized.

00:01:56.220 And let me give you a concrete example of how it's a one-two punch.

00:02:00.360 Take, for example, the parasitic idea of cultural relativism.

00:02:04.300 Cultural relativism basically purports that you're in no position to judge

00:02:08.560 the cultural values and the cultural beliefs of another culture.

00:02:12.520 That would be imperialism.

00:02:14.500 It would be racist for you to do so. 1.00

00:02:16.100 If another culture wants to cut off the clitoris as a five-year-old girl, 0.99

00:02:19.680 it's not for you to say that it's not a good thing. Well, if I internalize the parasitic 1.00

00:02:25.900 idea of cultural relativism, it then renders me incapable of saying that we may not want to allow

00:02:34.380 people who share those values as part of our immigration policy. So cultural relativism

00:02:40.880 results in the suicidally empathetic position of open borders.

00:02:46.280 So for those encountering this idea for the first time, how do you distinguish healthy empathy from the pathological version?

00:02:55.240 Where does the line get crossed?

00:02:57.780 It's really great that you asked that question because most of the completely erroneous criticisms of my framework and my book stem from the following false accusation that I am arguing that empathy is bad.

00:03:13.660 and i'm doing no such thing right as an evolutionary behavioral scientist i fully

00:03:18.340 recognize that as a social species it makes perfect rational sense that we've evolved the

00:03:24.780 capacity to empathize for you and i to have a meaningful conversation i need to put myself

00:03:29.520 in your mind and vice versa that's called cognitive empathy or theory of mind we want

00:03:35.280 our physicians our veterinarians our therapists our spouses our best friends to be empathetic

00:03:41.740 So, within well-calibrated regions, empathy is wonderful, but like most things in life, the problem arises when there is too little or too much of something.

00:03:53.860 This is exactly what Aristotle referred to in his Nicomachean Ethics when he talked about the golden mean.

00:04:00.560 If a soldier is cowardly, exhibits no courage, that's not a good thing.

00:04:08.960 if he exhibits so much courage that he becomes bold and reckless in his risk-taking while he's

00:04:15.320 going to quickly die, there is some optimal level of courage somewhere between those two extremes.

00:04:21.100 That's exactly how I define the difference between rational empathy and suicidal empathy.

00:04:27.300 Suicidal empathy is when empathy is hyperactive, it misfires, it is invoked in the wrong situations

00:04:37.120 towards the wrong targets. Put all those together, you end up with the suicidal manifestation

00:04:42.040 of an otherwise adaptive mechanism. So throughout the book, I got the feeling that the way you were

00:04:49.480 using the word altruism was different from the way objectivists might understand it. I wanted

00:04:56.080 to check at the outset of this conversation whether it was a difference of semantics or a

00:05:01.020 deeper one. You seem to be using altruism interchangeably with benevolence, kindness,

00:05:08.000 generosity, and perhaps most of your readers would understand it. But Auguste Comte, the French

00:05:14.220 philosopher who coined the word altruism in the 19th century, meant something more radical, that

00:05:20.640 the fundamental moral duty was to live for others. He insisted that self-interest always be

00:05:27.600 subordinated to the needs of others to the needs of society personal desires ambitions or happiness

00:05:33.680 were only morally acceptable when they serve the greater social whole do you see altruism as

00:05:41.100 equivalent to benevolence which at least open objectivists would see as a self-interested value

00:05:48.320 and virtue or do you see it as a rejection of self-interest more fundamentally being altruistic

00:05:57.200 could itself be a manifestation of self-interest.

00:06:01.580 So they don't need to be pitted against each other

00:06:04.680 if you understand the term altruism from an evolutionary perspective.

00:06:08.940 And so let me explain that at a more granular level.

00:06:14.040 Take, for example, the mechanism of mutualism.

00:06:18.120 Mutualism is when two animals will engage in a dyadic relationship

00:06:23.420 that might seem altruistic but in reality it serves the interest of both in a quote selfish

00:06:30.060 manner so take for example cleaner fish so these are fish that have evolved the capacity to go into

00:06:37.720 the mouth they're sort of they're sort of underwater dentists so this ominous looking fish

00:06:43.660 that has this sort of jaws of death will open its mouth at a particular station and this smaller fish

00:06:51.560 will go into the mouth of this larger predatory fish at first you would think my goodness he's

00:06:57.780 committing suicide but they've evolved this mutualistic relationship because the larger fish

00:07:04.220 needs that smaller fish to go in and clean out morsels and clean out parasites so therefore what

00:07:12.560 might seem as though it is behaving altruistically in in one definition of that word it's actually in

00:07:19.560 its own selfish interest. Now let's apply to the human context. Evolutionary psychologists argue

00:07:25.540 that there are two types of altruism that have evolved that are perfectly consistent with a

00:07:31.780 quote selfish perspective. If I jump into a river to save three of my biological children,

00:07:39.720 each of those children share on average half their genes with me. So if in the service of

00:07:45.780 jumping into the river and saving them, I end up dying, but I save three children, that would make

00:07:52.000 perfect evolutionary sense if we understand that evolution operates at the gene level. But why

00:07:58.300 would I ever jump into the river to save a friend who is not biologically related to me? Well, here

00:08:04.120 we talk about what's called tit for tat, right? We've evolved reciprocal altruism whereby under

00:08:10.500 certain condition, it would make sense for me to jump into the river to save Jag, even though she's

00:08:16.760 not biologically related to me, under the understanding that in the future, there might

00:08:21.680 be an opportunity for you to reciprocate in kind. So I use the term altruism in this very specific

00:08:28.200 evolutionary sense. That's a really fascinating perspective. So going back to our conference,

00:08:35.080 where, again, you were a hit.

00:08:37.400 At Galt's Culture, Chairman Jay LaPere

00:08:39.200 talked about the belief in human agency

00:08:42.020 as a potentially unifying principle

00:08:44.560 for those seeking a return to civic discourse

00:08:48.020 and mutual respect.

00:08:49.720 What is the relationship between the belief

00:08:52.680 in human agency, the idea that we can act

00:08:56.600 to change our circumstances

00:08:58.520 and that we bear a responsibility for our actions?

00:09:02.940 How does that relate to one's relative vulnerability to suicidal empathy?

00:09:10.420 Yeah, great question.

00:09:11.200 By the way, I've had the chance to interact with Jay both at the conference and subsequently

00:09:15.680 he sent me a lovely email.

00:09:17.580 And so we're trying to formalize our relationship since I'm going to Ole Miss at the Declaration

00:09:23.760 of Independence Center.

00:09:25.060 So there are some real natural allyship that we can develop there.

00:09:28.740 So thank you for allowing me to meet this wonderful guy.

00:09:33.660 But in any case, human agency is actually contrary to many of the suicidally empathetic positions that I cover in the book.

00:09:42.100 So take, for example, what I refer to in one of the chapters to blank slate felons.

00:09:47.540 Why do I use that term?

00:09:49.260 Blank slate is a term that is used in the study of the human mind.

00:09:53.420 It's a social constructivist view.

00:09:55.660 It basically argues that we are not born with any biological imperatives.

00:10:00.900 We are all born with equal potentiality, tabula rasa, empty minds.

00:10:06.560 And it is only the vagaries of the life trajectories that we face that then define our life trajectory.

00:10:15.600 Now, why is that blank slate?

00:10:17.060 Because if you really internalize that parasitic idea, then the felon doesn't have personal agency, right? 0.98

00:10:23.900 So if, and especially, God forbid, if he's a felon of color, I hate that phraseology, but let's use it. So if he is a black man who is born, according to the suicidally empathetic, into an irredeemably white supremacist racist society, he's already been punished existentially. 0.91

00:10:42.720 So now you're going to hold him accountable for the 167 previous felonies that he's committed and he's been arrested for? 0.90

00:10:51.660 That just seems so mean and so lacking in empathy.

00:10:55.180 Why don't you give him a second chance?

00:10:57.060 And by second chance, we mean 165th chance because we are kind and compassionate people. 1.00

00:11:03.820 We owe it to the felon of color. 0.95

00:11:05.580 So in this case, I have removed his personal agency. 0.99

00:11:09.860 He doesn't have any personal agency.

00:11:11.700 that's why he's you know accumulated this long criminal rap sheet all right i'm going to pause

00:11:18.740 with my questions to take a few from our long-suffering audience and thanks again guys

00:11:24.580 for um sticking with us last week when batia anghar sargan had to leave him i didn't get to

00:11:29.780 go get to your questions um but we've got one here from i like numbers asking did elon encourage you

00:11:37.580 to write Suicidal Empathy.

00:11:40.120 I'm glad if he did.

00:11:41.560 And I should also point out that here on the cover,

00:11:46.340 we've got a quote from Elon Musk,

00:11:48.580 quote, Western civilization is doomed

00:11:50.380 unless the core weakness of suicidal empathy is recognized

00:11:53.800 and actions are taken that are hard

00:11:57.080 but necessary for survival.

00:11:59.580 Gad Saad articulates this well.

00:12:02.060 All of Gad's books, including this one, are great.

00:12:04.900 that's a lovely endorsement uh well no he didn't he's not the one who compelled me to write the

00:12:12.840 book uh i actually discuss how that came about which i'll i'll mention again here but what he

00:12:18.960 did do is he kept both privately and publicly implore me to write it more quickly at one point

00:12:26.380 he had even posted he said can you please release at least chapters one and two so that everybody

00:12:32.320 can read them because i kept saying guys i'm working as fast as i could on the book so so

00:12:36.880 certainly he's been a huge champion and supporter of my work but what led me to write the book is

00:12:42.400 well i i'd already mentioned the concept of suicidal empathy in the parasitic mind so which

00:12:48.480 came out in 2020 and so it's nearly 10 years ago because i started writing the book you know a

00:12:53.440 couple of years prior to that so that idea was simmering in my head and at one point i had written

00:13:00.400 this sort of long tweet where i was explaining the framework of suicidal empathy and subsequent

00:13:07.760 to which i head off to my email account and i have an email from eric nelson the executive editor at

00:13:16.200 harper collins and he basically puts the link to that tweet and then has a subject heading i don't

00:13:22.800 remember the exact words i mentioned them in the book but something to the effect of looks like we

00:13:27.520 found your next book let's talk or something like that so so uh you know he he definitely deserves

00:13:34.220 the credit for having you know uh served as a catalyst i mean i had already thought about that

00:13:40.520 that would be my next book but then receiving such a uh compelling email from you know the

00:13:46.740 executive editor harper collins made me think okay i think maybe we're on to something let me

00:13:51.700 hurry up and write that book. That's a great story. Okay, Valiant Mike, also lots and lots of

00:13:58.280 endorsements in the comments for this book. So folks, if you haven't read it, and it's a great

00:14:06.120 audio book as well, go out and get that as well. Valiant Mike says, based on the uneven enforcement

00:14:12.540 of justice today, do you agree that a society can become so focused on avoiding cruelty that it

00:14:19.180 loses the ability to enforce standards.

00:14:22.960 It reminds me of Ayn Rand's quote

00:14:25.540 that pity for the guilty is treason to the innocent.

00:14:29.540 Exactly.

00:14:30.480 And of course that has to be the case,

00:14:32.180 but it applies to endless situations.

00:14:34.800 So I'll give you one example.

00:14:38.140 It's mean, I'm speaking now,

00:14:40.380 if I were a suicidally empathetic person, 1.00

00:14:42.220 it's mean to not allow poor people 1.00

00:14:45.980 who would like to come and share 0.90

00:14:47.840 in the wonderful, exceptional society that America has created to not let them in.

00:14:53.580 I mean, you, Jag, you just won the lottery by fluke. 0.88

00:14:58.560 It was through no design of your own that you ended up being born in the United States.

00:15:04.080 Don't you think that that existential lottery winning should be extended to other people

00:15:09.060 and so they should be allowed, if they came in illegally, to stay and they'll contribute

00:15:13.680 and they'll be taxpayers?

00:15:14.640 Well, let me contrast that with what I had to do to get my visa. Now, I'm known and Elon Musk is my big champion, but he's hardly the only one. There are many, many people in the most senior positions in the current administration that are huge champions of my work who would love for me to be nothing other than American.

00:15:37.220 and therefore you would think that I've got an easy ticket to get into the United States.

00:15:42.020 I've been a professor for 32 years.

00:15:44.400 I've been a professor at Cornell, at Dartmouth, at UC Irvine, at Northwood University.

00:15:49.920 Yet I had to go through an astoundingly laborious and costly process for me to get that paper

00:15:59.420 that would allow me to be a resident of the United States.

00:16:02.600 So by which logic would it be the case that Hector Gonzalez can get into the United States because poor boo-hoo-hoo Hector, but I have to actually go through another process, the legal process, so that I can have the privilege of living in the United States.

00:16:22.520 either we are equal under the law or we're not. So this two-tier process whereby some people are

00:16:29.260 holy and privileged and we don't have to worry about the law for them is not the way you want

00:16:34.220 to organize society. So one of the things I thought was very interesting in your book was

00:16:39.100 how you compare and contrast the Stockholm syndrome with the Oslo syndrome. What are the

00:16:46.060 differences and which one comes closer to approximating suicidal empathy. Right, so that

00:16:51.780 and interestingly they're both in one form or another Scandinavian. So the Oslo syndrome is

00:17:00.280 something that arose when the Israelis in their negotiations with the Palestinians kept thinking

00:17:07.460 you know if we give this and we give that and we're for a bit more applying this way and that way

00:17:12.780 Then they'll come around to, you know, finally being willing to coexist with us.

00:17:18.500 And although what I'm about to say is not necessarily within the tight rubric of the 0.80

00:17:24.680 Austal syndrome, the story with Yahya Sinwar would be a manifestation of the Israeli suicidal

00:17:31.540 empathy, whereby he was imprisoned for life for all of his terroristic activities. 0.61

00:17:37.500 But then in 2011, I think, I can't remember the exact year, he was diagnosed with a brain tumor. 0.80

00:17:45.660 And the Israeli surgeons, because they are bound by the deontological principle of the Hippocratic Oath, 0.53

00:17:52.100 thought, well, it doesn't matter if he's an avowed enemy who would like to eradicate all of us. 0.53

00:17:57.040 Our primary duty is to save him.

00:17:59.480 Well, they did save him.

00:18:00.680 And then in a subsequent prisoner swap, he was released from his life sentence.

00:18:07.500 And then the way he repaid the Israeli society and the Israeli surgeons who saved him was that he meted out all of his empathy by being one of the architects of October 7th. 0.64

00:18:20.540 So that's that would fit on the sort of the Oslo slash Israeli suicidal empathy.

00:18:25.760 Stockholm syndrome is when a, for example, a kidnapped person starts feeling empathy and sympathy towards the, you know, their kidnappers.

00:18:37.320 as in Hearst, if you remember the pictures.

00:18:41.060 Abby Hearst, yeah.

00:18:41.980 In the 1970s.

00:18:43.460 Now, in some cases, it's not really an actual manifestation of Stockholm Syndrome

00:18:49.940 in that you start pretending to empathize with your kidnapper

00:18:56.280 because it becomes a survival strategy.

00:18:59.100 So there are recorded cases where a woman, for example,

00:19:03.080 had been kidnapped by a sadistic sexual serial killer, but by forcing him to humanize her,

00:19:11.720 by having an interaction with him and hence appearing as though she is empathizing with him

00:19:18.000 and so on, that served as the mechanism by which she ended up freeing herself. So Stockholm and

00:19:24.000 Oslo are not quite the same thing, but hopefully you got the distinction. Yeah, so it's a very

00:19:29.820 Very interesting distinction. So one of the more difficult examples you share in your book was that

00:19:35.940 of a Coloradan man who housed in his home a 20-year-old employee who was a Venezuelan illegal

00:19:43.120 migrant. What was the painful lesson he learned and what does it tell us about suicidal empathy?

00:19:48.700 Well, it basically says that I'm going to shut off the module in my brain that calculates

00:19:57.740 statistical regularities and hence risk navigating through risk so let me let me give another example

00:20:05.680 of that and then i'll come back to that coloradan example i've always said that my children i mean

00:20:13.020 now they're older they're they're teenagers but when they were young never ever ever a sleepover

00:20:21.060 party. Never. Why? Because the one who's going to abuse your child doesn't come with horns. He

00:20:28.840 doesn't come with a tattoo that says potential child molester. He is your uncle or their uncle

00:20:35.660 and your brother and your grandfather and the really sweet neighbor. I can't tell who is

00:20:41.980 potentially the molester of my children. Therefore, I never put my children in a situation where they

00:20:49.480 could be victimized. Therefore, I calculated the statistical probabilities and the payoffs

00:20:56.080 of all of the possible states of the world, and I decided that I'm going to act accordingly.

00:21:02.520 Well, what the Coloradan man said is, I'm not going to succumb to this idea that men are dangerous

00:21:10.700 because very few men rape, and I'm not going to suddenly marginalize the noble illegal migrant

00:21:17.920 from Venezuela or whatever, because he's probably just a young guy who's hardworking. So I'm willing

00:21:24.220 to bet the bodily integrity of my teenage daughter in my utopian statistical calculation. Oops,

00:21:33.220 I guess it didn't work out. And I guess she had to pay with a very beautiful rape. That's exactly 1.00

00:21:38.700 what suicidal empathy looks like. Very difficult. All right. Alan Turner asks, are there particular

00:21:45.020 institutions or mediums where idea pathogens are particularly effective or maybe virulent,

00:21:52.460 for example, universities or social media? Well, every single parasitic idea that I describe in

00:22:00.080 the parasitic mind, which then leads to suicidal empathy, every single one was spawned on university

00:22:08.100 campuses. Because as I like to remind people, and Orwell already had that prescient insight,

00:22:15.220 you know, many decades ago, it uniquely takes intellectuals to come up with some of the dumbest 0.99

00:22:20.860 ideas. And the reason for that, it's not because inherently professors are dumb. Clearly they're 0.99

00:22:27.420 not, right? The reason why they are prone to spawning these parasitic ideas is because many

00:22:35.980 of them are fully untethered to the autocorrective mechanisms of reality to slap them back and out

00:22:44.980 of their stupor right so if i am a humanities professor or in some of the activist field of 0.98

00:22:50.400 the social sciences i could pontificate all sorts of nonsense up is down left is right men are women 0.74

00:22:56.840 war is peace america is slavery islam is peace because i can pontificate those things and i

00:23:05.620 don't bear any costs for that. As a matter of fact, I'm likely to be rewarded with a chaired 0.87

00:23:11.320 professorship and tenure the more outrageous my comments are. That's why many of the applied

00:23:18.160 disciplines are less likely to be parasitized. So for example, the business school and the

00:23:24.820 engineering school, while they too can have parasitic ideas flourishing in their midst,

00:23:29.880 they're less likely to be so because it's difficult to build a predictive consumer choice 1.00

00:23:36.100 model using lesbian dance theory mathematics. It's very difficult to build the bridge in 1.00

00:23:42.940 engineering school using queer architecture because there is this thing called reality 1.00

00:23:48.880 that will slap you back out of your idiotic stupor. So to answer that question, it all starts 1.00

00:23:57.660 from academia. Then we train the next generation of degenerate imbeciles to become our journalists, 1.00

00:24:05.640 our filmmakers, our playwrights, our prime ministers, Justin Trudeau. But patient zero 1.00

00:24:14.980 is always at the university ecosystem. All right. Zoltan, you asked sort of a similar question.

00:24:21.300 And let us know if that answer that he just gave spoke to what you were inquiring after.

00:24:28.360 So, God, you write that prior to George Floyd's death, white murderers were twice as likely to have their races mentioned as counterparts as compared to their black counterparts.

00:24:42.700 After Floyd's death, this skyrocketed to seven times more likely.

00:24:48.080 What's going on?

00:24:48.900 So that's what I call, it's a mixture of linguistic empathy, epistemological empathy, and so on. Meaning that sometimes, according to the suicidally empathetic, you need to cook the manner by which you convey information because there is some higher noble goal.

00:25:10.660 So after St. George Floyd, you know, died, then we had to all do our part to be allies to Black Lives Matter. 0.91

00:25:23.100 And so one of the ways that journalists did that is they highlighted the fact when exactly as you said, it was a white murderer versus a black murderer.

00:25:34.480 Now, related to this concept is what I call forbidden knowledge. 0.96

00:25:39.560 Let's suppose you have data that suggests that blacks are much more likely to kill whites than vice versa or just commit murders in general per capita.

00:25:52.660 Now, that may be an unassailable, incontrovertible fact, as it is, but sharing that information becomes part of forbidden knowledge because there is a higher goal in this case, which is don't further marginalize the communities of color.

00:26:10.380 Now here, there's a very important distinction to be made. And I don't think I had mentioned it during our wonderful chat in San Diego. The difference between deontological and consequentialist ethics. Deontological ethics are absolute statements of, say, truth.

00:26:28.960 So for example, if I say it is never okay to lie, that would be a deontological statement. If I say it is okay to lie to spare someone's feelings, that would be a consequentialist statement. Now for many things in life, it makes perfect sense for us to be consequentialist.

00:26:44.640 But when it comes to freedom of speech, freedom of inquiry, journalistic integrity, presumption of innocence in the justice system, those things by definition have to be deontological.

00:26:56.900 If you apply a consequentialist ethos in a deontological sense, you really violate some of our foundational principles.

00:27:05.520 So what these journalists are doing is they are violating a deontological principle, which is always tell the truth.

00:27:13.500 Don't massage it for some greater noble goal.

00:27:16.940 so um one example from the headlines a 23 year old woman uh says she was attacked on a manhattan

00:27:25.760 subway by uh a ramelle burke 32 weeks before he allegedly killed a 76 year old retired teacher by

00:27:35.340 shutting him down station stairs when asked why she refused to report on her own assault she

00:27:42.060 confessed, I regretted 100%. And I actually feel really bad that a man lost his life. But she goes

00:27:48.960 on to explain her motive, quote, maybe part of me was just like, I don't want to put another black 0.93

00:27:54.220 man in jail. But at some point, if you're a criminal, you're a criminal. So this young woman 0.98

00:27:59.140 was taking the scenic route to sanity, but she eventually gets there in the end. Her compassion,

00:28:06.520 all of it was reserved for the man who tried to kill her for herself and for people like her,

00:28:12.060 there was none to be spared. So what explains this kind of psychology? And maybe also, you know,

00:28:18.820 talk about differences between the sexes in terms of vulnerability to suicidal empathy.

00:28:26.400 Let me take the first part first. Well, okay, I'll take the second part very quickly.

00:28:31.180 Even for well-modulated, well-calibrated empathy, women score higher on empathy than men, 0.90

00:28:37.080 and there are very clear evolutionary reasons for that and so it doesn't uh it wouldn't surprise 0.95

00:28:42.040 anybody that when it comes to the miscalibrated version the pathological the suicidal version of

00:28:47.480 empathy they're more likely to be afflicted with it now that doesn't mean that there aren't

00:28:52.040 many men who are also afflicted with suicidal empathy but usually they don't have the morphology

00:28:57.240 of navy seals and we can talk about that if you want later usually they you know they they cry

00:29:02.280 while watching Bridget Jones' diary, they have a fula, they hug the tree, they cry when they fill

00:29:08.400 up the gas because it is through the rape of Mother Earth that I am filling up my gas. So

00:29:13.340 they're very kind and compassionate men. But leaving that aside, what is the mechanism that

00:29:18.540 explains that woman? Well, I'm going to give you two other examples that are a lot more hallucinatory 0.83

00:29:23.700 than the one that you gave. The one that you gave actually happened after I had finished writing

00:29:28.220 suicidal empathy. But there are two examples that I discuss in the book that are much, much worse.

00:29:32.720 One, a woman is gang raped by several men in Germany. Those men were speaking Farsi and Arabic.

00:29:39.820 But if she were to tell the cops that they spoke Farsi and Arabic, then that might marginalize the

00:29:48.200 noble Middle Eastern community. So she lies to them and says that they were speaking in German

00:29:54.000 because she wanted to protect those communities.

00:29:56.860 Now, in this case, the other woman wasn't victimized.

00:29:59.980 She was going to be victimized, and then she ended up doing what she did. 0.98

00:30:02.840 In this case, she was gang raped, and her reflex was to protect the gang rapists.

00:30:09.640 But there's even a worse example of that that I discuss in the book, Jag.

00:30:14.960 A white woman, white progressive woman, who is a lot more enlightened than us here on this chat, 0.90

00:30:22.320 wanted to demonstrate that black men are inherently non-violent and it's only the white supremacy of

00:30:31.680 America that creates this false narrative that black men ever commit violence because we otherwise

00:30:38.760 can't come up with a single example throughout all of recorded history of any black man ever 0.81

00:30:45.060 committing violence anywhere okay so she goes to Haiti I don't know why it was Haiti but she goes 0.51

00:30:52.220 to Haiti, to Port-au-Prince, to actually demonstrate that in sort of the natural habitat

00:30:58.360 away from white supremacist America, they're all just lovely and kind and peaceful. Well,

00:31:05.120 there's this little thing called reality that ended up slapping her, both metaphorically and 0.97

00:31:10.880 literally, when a Haitian man took her to the rooftop and raped her violently all night.

00:31:17.660 But at the end of that experience, when she came back to the United States and wrote an essay, which was published, so you can go and see the reference in my book, her conclusion, Jag, you ready for this?

00:31:32.360 Yep. She was thankful for the experience of being violently raped because she recognized that this otherwise perfectly peaceful, perfectly noble black guy was expressing his pent up hatred of white supremacy in Haiti. 0.88

00:31:54.040 right so while living in Haiti he was very angry at the white supremacy in the United States 0.94

00:32:01.680 and so he used the vehicle of this white woman to express his rage so she was ultimately thankful

00:32:09.800 for that experience well I'm here to tell you as your resident evolutionary psychologist

00:32:14.740 that women have not evolved the emotional calculus to empathize with their rapists but

00:32:21.720 you asked, why is that? How does that happen? So here I'm going to use a term that has gone viral

00:32:29.520 when I call someone a wood cricket. Why do I use that term? A wood cricket abhors water. It wants 0.87

00:32:37.620 nothing to do with water. But when it is parasitized by a hair worm, and it's a neuroparasite, the

00:32:44.860 hair worm goes to the wood cricket's brain, and then the hair worm needs the wood cricket to

00:32:50.360 merrily jump into water, commit suicide, because the only way that the hairworm can complete its

00:32:57.140 reproductive cycle is in water. And therefore, once that hapless wood cricket has been parasitized,

00:33:03.440 it has lost the ability to invoke its survival instinct. That's precisely why I use the

00:33:11.360 neuro-parasitological framework to explain these phenomena, because hashtag queers for Palestine,

00:33:17.720 hashtag juice from Mamdani are literally human manifestations of the wood cricket.

00:33:25.480 Well, a lot of these examples seem absolutely insane, which kind of goes to some of the

00:33:31.640 questions that we're getting here. Is this actual delusion or is it to what extent is it like

00:33:38.000 virtue signaling? I'm part of your tribe. It's a bit of both. So early in the book,

00:33:44.020 in chapter one of suicidal empathy i talk about various precursors to suicidal empathy one of

00:33:50.940 which is narcissism so i want to be able to stroke my luxuriant hair while admiring myself in the

00:33:59.400 mirror of moral preening i am such a good person i'm such an enlightened person right so nazis

00:34:06.340 Seuss died while admiring the reflection of his morphological beauty, what these narcissists are

00:34:14.980 doing, to your point, to your question, is that they are admiring themselves because they're just

00:34:19.800 better people that have transcended the earthly calculus that you and I might abide by. So that

00:34:25.760 would be one example. But of course, there is an element also of that where you actually have

00:34:31.540 internalize truly, you're not just engaging in virtue signaling. You truly believe that you are

00:34:36.640 a good person if you internalize those suicidally empathetic values. And let me give you a personal

00:34:42.260 example. A few months ago, I had some knee issues, which often arises to people of my age who've been

00:34:48.900 soccer players in their earlier lives. And I was going to a physiotherapist for some, you know,

00:34:54.560 some help with my knees. And at one point, I hadn't, I was still working on the book at that

00:35:00.000 point it hadn't come out yet she said oh are you working on anything these days i said yeah i have

00:35:04.740 a book coming out soon oh what's it about suicidal empathy oh give me what's what is that about so

00:35:10.660 then i gave her the example of the open border policies as the ultimate manifestation of

00:35:15.780 suicidal empathy well she was aghast with horror she she could not she could simply not believe

00:35:22.040 that someone could have such a callous heart as what I was expressing. So why wouldn't you want

00:35:30.560 millions of people from Afghanistan and Waziristan to come to Canada, just like you were given a

00:35:37.740 chance to come to Canada to escape the Lebanese civil war? I don't think when she was expressing

00:35:43.260 sort of her disappointment at my dark callous heart, she wasn't engaging in virtue signaling.

00:35:49.720 she genuinely believed that it was simply wrong to not allow anyone who wanted to come to Canada

00:35:57.220 to refuse them entry. So it's a bit of both. Well, that example of this sort of endless

00:36:03.600 empathy for people who live in faraway lands and saying, well, why not? They all deserve a chance

00:36:10.320 to come to America or to Canada. It reminds me of the example that Charles Dickens gave us

00:36:17.020 in Mrs. Jellybee in Bleak House. This was a woman who was so consumed with her philanthropic mission

00:36:23.820 to Africa that her own children go hungry and her own household falls apart. Dickon

00:36:29.160 called it, quote, telescopic philanthropy, moral energy that is directed at distant abstractions,

00:36:37.380 distant peoples, while real obligations go unmet nearby. Now, that was in 1853.

00:36:44.120 Is suicidal empathy essentially a 21st century civilizational scale version of Mrs. Jellybee?

00:36:53.400 And if Dickens could see it so clearly 170 years ago, why have we forgotten that lesson?

00:36:59.080 Yeah, I remember you asking that fantastic question and referencing Dickens, and I wasn't aware of that reference.

00:37:05.440 Before I answer your specific question, I want to mention a point which I don't think I had mentioned in the San Diego conference.

00:37:12.800 One of the reasons why literature is so powerful is because when properly done, literature is a window to our human nature, right?

00:37:24.840 So there's literally a field called literary Darwinism, which basically is the study of novels, novellas, all forms of literature via a Darwinian lens.

00:37:39.500 So rather than looking at literature through a Foucault lens or Marxist lens or feminist lens, you look at it through the proper lens, which is powerful narratives in literature withstand the test of time precisely because I can read an ancient Greek poem today and fully understand the meaning of what that ancient Greek poet was saying.

00:38:05.800 Because the software that runs his mind is exactly the same as the one that runs yours and mine, notwithstanding the fact that he doesn't know what an iPad is or what a plane is, right?

00:38:17.980 The software is identical.

00:38:19.500 So it does not surprise me that Dickens would have picked up on that insight about the frailties of the human mind.

00:38:27.040 But now coming to the exact question that you asked, it's not that the reflex of suicidal empathy is only current.

00:38:39.040 What is unique about the current period is that it took a specific set of parasitic ideas that were spawned in the last 50 to 100 years to result in the suicidal empathy that we are currently seeing.

00:38:55.460 You follow what I'm saying? So take, for example, 300 years ago. It's not as though people didn't

00:39:01.360 succumb to parasitic ideas then, right? In the Northeast, this was a way that you could

00:39:06.420 conceivably organize your neighborhood. I think that Linda might be a witch. So you know what? 1.00

00:39:12.260 Let's whisk her out of the house, throw her into a body of water. And if she swims, that proves 1.00

00:39:18.920 that she is a witch. And if she drowns, oops, I guess we were wrong. She's not a witch. And that 0.94

00:39:24.440 idea was internalized by a group of people at a particular time period. So the capacity to be

00:39:31.460 parasitized by bad ideas is an inerrant feature of the architecture of the human mind. But the

00:39:38.140 fact that a specific set of parasitic ideas has resulted in the current manifestation of

00:39:45.120 suicidal empathy is specific to this time period. So we'd mentioned the Oslo syndrome before and

00:39:53.520 And, you know, we haven't really talked about your remarkable origin story growing up originally, early childhood in the Middle East.

00:40:04.460 And, you know, I wonder if the experience that you had seeing people who actually, you know, wanted to see you dead kind of helped immunize you to this kind of, you know, delusional, suicidal empathy, or at least made you better able to spot it.

00:40:25.200 Fantastic question. Thank you.

00:40:26.980 And the answer is an emphatic yes.

00:40:28.940 It's not the only reason why I'm so clear-eyed about the world, but it's certainly one of several factors that allow me to see the world as it is rather than through a utopian, you know, prism-colored thing.

00:40:42.800 uh look lebanon was the ultimate manifestation of what happens to a society that is rooted in

00:40:52.320 identity politics because everything in lebanon is viewed through the prism of the religious group

00:40:59.100 that you belong to as a matter of fact in lebanon there's an internal id that you had to carry

00:41:04.360 not unlike say a passport but it's for inside domestically so that if the cops stop you and

00:41:10.760 say show us your papers that internal id which in arabic the word is hawiyah so if you show the

00:41:17.960 hawiyah the most conspicuous feature of that card is your religion it's not your height it's not

00:41:25.800 your eye color it's not your weight it's not your name it's which group do you belong to are you 0.99

00:41:31.000 maronite are you shia are you dirzi are you sunni are you god forbid jewish by the way 0.66

00:41:38.200 jewish in arabic is yahudi but that's not what was written on that card it was written 0.69

00:41:44.460 israeli israeli means israelite so it was even greater animus if you were stopped somewhere

00:41:51.660 somehow you cease to become lebanese you are an israelite even though i had nothing to do with

00:41:56.940 israel i was born in lebanon my parents were born in lebanon and so on so because of that

00:42:03.000 because I saw what happens to a society where whether you could be president of Lebanon or

00:42:09.960 prime minister of Lebanon or speaker of the house in Lebanon it is specifically tied to a specific

00:42:16.780 religion that's called by the way a confessional parliamentary system so having seen that having

00:42:24.060 had to wear really good running shoes so I could sprint really fast to outrun those who wanted to 0.56

00:42:30.340 behead me, then I come to the West and I look around and I say, wait a minute, there is a

00:42:36.540 political party in the United States that aspires to have the Lebanese model, meaning identity

00:42:45.120 politics. It's insane. So a lot of my recognition of the dangers that we see in the West regrettably

00:42:53.320 come from the childhood that I had in Lebanon. Yes. Building on that, you've argued that Jews

00:42:59.000 are often placed outside the empathy hierarchy.

00:43:03.340 Could you unpack that for us?

00:43:05.120 Right.

00:43:05.440 So, okay, October 7th happens.

00:43:08.140 It's, I mean, you know, we don't need to rehash it,

00:43:10.760 but it's the day where Jews were most killed

00:43:15.260 since the Holocaust in unbelievably brutal ways. 0.59

00:43:19.200 Now, you would have thought that that would have bought 1.00

00:43:22.500 those pesky Jews, you know, some leeway of empathy. 0.99

00:43:26.260 Let's give them three months of carte blanche empathy before we start hating on the Jews. 0.95

00:43:34.040 No, on October 7th, on October 8th, as you well know, Jay, there were already preemptive protests about the Israeli retaliation that had yet to happen.

00:43:46.960 So we were already screaming about the looming genocide that the IDF was going to do, but not a single retaliatory weapon had been fired yet. 0.95

00:43:58.440 So within 24 hours, the mean Jews had lost the right to empathy. 0.97

00:44:05.380 And then, of course, once we've got the leveling of Gazan buildings, well, then clearly the Jews are not deserving of any empathy. 1.00

00:44:13.160 This is what, by the way, I call the amnesia of causality. We no longer remember what led to the Israelis retaliating. October 7th really never happened. It's lost in the memory hole. And if we could remember it, it's probably justified that October 7th happened because of the main occupation and the genocide of the Palestinians, supposedly. 0.97

00:44:39.260 And so therefore, according to that logic, according to Mamdani and his gang, the Jews are not deserving of any empathy. It's unbelievable. It really is shocking. Even for someone like me who comes with the background that I've come from, I was astounded by the level of Jew hatred I personally face.

00:45:00.780 So after October 7th, it became difficult for me to go to campus at my Montreal University, because I was this high profile, very outspoken Jewish professor. So if the anonymous Jewish students were afraid to go to campus, could you imagine the kind of target I had on me? It was unbelievable.

00:45:22.700 Well, we talked about how that kind of identity politics ended in Lebanon. And you've said that a civil war is coming for the West. Do you mean more of a moral and cultural separation or an actual shooting war? And do you see it as inevitable because we've gone too far? Or can we still pull things back, even if more people start to reject unquestioned suicidal empathy? 0.57

00:45:50.400 uh you can go back to content that i've produced for several decades where i say if we don't

00:45:59.760 right the ship there will be a repeat of the lebanese civil war that i escaped and then people

00:46:05.820 would then say you are such you're so hyperbolic why do you exaggerate this way no way what are

00:46:11.780 you talking about well it's because they didn't have the capacity that the power to extrapolate

00:46:19.400 into a future from current trends, right? If you live in Montana or you live in Wyoming or you live

00:46:26.100 in a beautiful neighborhood in Utah, what is this Canadian professor talking about Lebanese Civil

00:46:31.800 War? I'm walking around in beautiful Jackson Hole and it's beautiful and there is no Islam. What is 1.00

00:46:37.520 he talking about this idiot? Well, because you can't extrapolate from current conditions, but then 1.00

00:46:43.480 you close your eyes and you open your eyes. Well, now you have Dearborn, Michigan. Well,

00:46:48.400 well, but that's just Dearborn. Well, but now you have Patterson, New Jersey. Well, okay,

00:46:52.420 but that's just Patterson, New Jersey. Well, now you have Minnesota. Well, okay, so now we have

00:46:58.300 Dearborn, Patterson, and Minnesota, but that's it, nowhere else. Well, go check what's happening

00:47:04.340 in Texas, in red-blooded American Texas now. So the Islamization of a society doesn't always 0.97

00:47:13.120 happen in 14 nanoseconds in some cases you come in and you kill everybody who's not muslim and it 0.98

00:47:19.180 takes four seconds to take over in some cases it's a 500 year process and so you have to have the 0.98

00:47:26.600 capacity to read the patterns and then extrapolate from those patterns so am i saying that civil war

00:47:34.840 is looming on american streets by next wednesday no but give it another 100 years and get back to

00:47:42.900 me, and then I'll be sitting in the back, and you can come and tell me that I was right all along.

00:47:48.140 Okay. In your book, you shared a wonderful observation by Bono, who said, in the United

00:47:54.120 States, you look at the guy that lives in the mansion on the hill, and you think, you know,

00:47:59.280 one day, if I work really hard, I could live in that mansion. In Ireland, he says, people look up

00:48:05.480 at the guy in the mansion on the hill and say, one day, I'm going to get that bastard. It's a 1.00

00:48:11.440 different mindset uh do you think that's still true if it seems that young people in the united

00:48:18.040 states are much more prone to envy than older generations um yeah yeah that's you're exactly

00:48:27.160 right and i will let's apply it to arguably the guy who lives in the highest of the biggest of

00:48:35.620 those metaphorical mansions his name is elon musk the the front the blurber in the front cover of

00:48:42.320 my book right i i say that do you know what a rorschach engblatt test is do you have you heard

00:48:48.500 of that term yeah of course yes okay so the rorschach engblatt test which you know has been

00:48:53.280 you know invalidated at this point but it's okay let's talk about it it's it's called a

00:48:59.820 projective technique, meaning that I'm going to show you a fuzzy amorphous looking stimulus and

00:49:06.020 then ask you to tell me what you're seeing. And based on your answer, I'm going to be able to

00:49:12.980 understand certain repressed things that you might be, you know, holding back. So, and that's why it's

00:49:18.840 a projective technique. You're projecting some latent motive or latent feelings and so on. It

00:49:24.680 comes from psychoanalysis. And I've always argued that how you react to God's sad, I am a Rorschach

00:49:32.300 in blood test. Because if you love me, I can usually predict the type of guy you are. If you

00:49:38.480 hate me, I can predict the type of guy you are. So usually very confident men who are not in any

00:49:46.040 way threatened by my strong person personhood say, I love this guy. Guys who cross their legs like

00:49:53.400 Justin Trudeau also called most of my academic colleagues, they go, he's so mean, he's so uncouth,

00:50:00.880 right? So it can't be, right? I'm the same guy, but you projected different things to that same

00:50:07.100 guy. Well, now let's apply it to Elon Musk. People can look at Elon Musk and say, what is the secret

00:50:14.200 sauce that causes him to be such a visionary? And can I somehow emulate that secret sauce?

00:50:22.340 And he's a personal friend of mine. I'm not in any way envious of his great success. If anything, I rejoice at his great success because he's doing incredible things that we should all be thankful for.

00:50:36.440 But if I am bathing in the beautiful infinity pool of covetousness, of envy, then I look at Elon Musk, Elizabeth Warren, AOC, Bernie Sanders, and just like the Irish in the Bono thing, I say, get that guy.

00:50:57.420 He doesn't, he shouldn't have that much money.

00:51:00.340 It's unbecoming for him to have that much money.

00:51:03.500 Take all of it from him.

00:51:04.660 I think we can both agree that one of those two outlooks supports a meritocratic beautiful society

00:51:15.240 and the other one leads to socialism and communism it's been tried for a hundred years

00:51:20.780 and it has failed everywhere because it is anti-Darwinian well yeah it also kind of goes

00:51:28.640 back to that question of agency that we started out with if you look at a person an elon musk

00:51:35.400 or a country the united states israel and your impulse is either wow look at that success look

00:51:45.360 at this place where they're making deserts bloom look at all of the millionaires and billionaires

00:51:50.660 or if you and you say what's the secret you know what's the secret sauce how can i emulate how can

00:51:56.560 my partner, or if you look at something or someone that's successful and it makes you

00:52:01.960 feel small, it's almost because you don't have that self-esteem that you could actually

00:52:07.980 rise to the highest level of your capability.

00:52:12.420 And I'll give you one quick example, maybe that's apropos, given that we're currently

00:52:16.540 in the middle of the World Cup.

00:52:19.160 Lionel Messi, who I'm a huge fan of, maybe I'm his biggest fan, although he has billions

00:52:24.460 of fans uh had failed many many times with the argentinian team and then the latest coach came

00:52:33.000 in in 2019 i think his name is scaloni and he basically said i am going to build a team that

00:52:40.740 is completely revolving around lionel messi so that every single other part of the machinery

00:52:48.020 of that team is willing to die for Lionel Messi right and he picked his players by the way these

00:52:56.060 are all international world-class players that could certainly have an ego saying I'm not gonna

00:53:02.740 die or play for Messi but if you listen to them speak literally every single one to the last of

00:53:09.220 them will say I am willing to kill and be killed to make sure that this guy wins well guess what 0.97

00:53:15.680 they they found that team none of them had the ego to say no no no but i want to be the star 0.97

00:53:21.160 recognizing that it's perfectly okay for him to be the man and they won the world cup and look

00:53:26.300 what they're doing in this current world cup so oftentimes people who are very self-confident

00:53:31.780 can recognize the value and the power of someone else without it diminishing them in the least bit

00:53:38.660 and so one of the reasons by the way why i think elon and i can sit down with each other

00:53:45.020 and have, you know, these wonderful conversations is because we really come towards each other

00:53:51.220 with zero ego. I mean, I've interacted with people that are obviously astoundingly less

00:53:57.940 accomplished than Elon, but I can't stomach talking to them for five minutes because I can

00:54:03.060 very quickly sniff out that they're these sort of narcissistic me, me, me thumping their chest.

00:54:08.380 Whereas Elon and I sit with each other, two guys, let's talk ideas. Let's enjoy each other's

00:54:14.700 neuronal activation patterns with zero pretense that's why we get along well i think that also

00:54:21.080 comes back to the question of semantics i would say that's not because you guys have zero ego it's

00:54:26.500 because you have strong egos you have a strong sense of yourself and you're not looking for

00:54:31.900 validation or conversely to see somebody else torn down in order to provide that sense of self

00:54:40.040 So in the just couple of minutes that we have left, I've got a last two questions for you.

00:54:46.740 In Atlas Shrugged, Ayn Rand observed that, quote, the sanction of the victim is the willingness of the good to suffer at the hands of the evil to accept the role of sacrificial victim for the sin of creating values.

00:55:02.440 So, of course, our student conference, Gulp's Gulch, is named after the place where in the novel the productive people have withdrawn that sanction, have refused to continue to be sacrificial victims.

00:55:15.720 For those in the grips of suicidal empathy, what is the cure?

00:55:20.320 How do we encourage them to withdraw the sanction of the victim?

00:55:23.980 Other than, of course, read this book.

00:55:26.860 Well, as you were speaking, I put up a copy of the book, a 1957 edition of Atlas Shrugged.

00:55:35.040 Look, I experienced that exact reality that Ayn Rand discussed in her novel in Canada, right? Because Canada is built on a gigantic parasitic taxation system that basically argues that it is existentially unfair for some people through the hard labor of their work, of their minds,

00:56:05.040 to make a lot more money than others so the benevolent empathetic overlords called our

00:56:12.960 provincial and federal government is going to come in is going to tax us at a rate that almost

00:56:20.400 renders us as complete slaves let me mention some of these realities the highest federal tax bracket

00:56:27.880 in Canada is 33%. The highest provincial tax rate in Quebec is 25.75%. Both are applied. So at the

00:56:37.080 higher ends, we're getting well into the high 50s. Now the money that's left to you, the government

00:56:42.980 doesn't say, okay, well, that's yours now. We've already stolen Gadsad, most of your book royalties,

00:56:48.540 which were, by the way, garnered outside of Canada, 99% of them. We get the royalties for

00:56:54.540 that book. We were your co-author in that book, right? Not only we were your co-author, we were

00:57:00.860 58% your co-author. Okay, fine. But then when I go out with the 42% that's left and I buy something,

00:57:08.380 then I get double consumption tax. I get a federal tax and I get a provincial tax at the rate of 15%.

00:57:16.360 percent once i then pay my property tax my carbon tax my school tax i'm left with about

00:57:23.640 30 35 cents to the dollar meaning let's put it another way from january 1st to about august 31st

00:57:31.880 i work fully for free for the government starting in september the government allows me to keep the

00:57:41.320 toils of my mind called my books. Well, isn't that what Ayn Rand talked about? Because

00:57:48.560 what did I do? I simply one day said, I'm no longer willing to be raped this way. I'm no

00:57:56.360 longer willing to be the primary victim of the ultimate parasitic Ponzi scheme, whereby a few

00:58:04.760 of us fund the largesse for everyone else in our society. 40% of Canadians don't pay income tax,

00:58:13.200 but I get taxed a lot for free healthcare, right? So what did I do? I disappeared just like in the

00:58:20.460 Ayn Rand thing. I said one day, well, there is a country called the United States. While hardly

00:58:26.920 perfect, while it too has too high of a tax rate, it's certainly a lot better than Canada. I'm going

00:58:33.600 to Mississippi, where they currently have an income tax rate of 4%, and they're trying to

00:58:40.980 bring it down to 0%. So what would I tell those people? Well, it's very hard to tell them anything

00:58:47.240 because in such a parasitic welfare state, 95% of the people benefit from that parasitic taxation.

00:58:56.000 So every time I go on social media to complain about the manners by which I've been financially 0.81

00:59:02.660 raped. People say, boo-hoo-hoo, rich Jew. Why don't you write another book so we can steal 0.98

00:59:08.920 all your proceeds? So they don't empathize with me. Rather, they think I'm a bad guy for complaining

00:59:15.420 that you stole all my money. So unfortunately, the Ayn Rand reflex of those guys to remove

00:59:22.360 themselves from society is really the only solution. That's why the SADs are heading down 0.96

00:59:27.860 to mississippi i'm very very excited about that um and hey god you just have two more months to

00:59:35.280 work until you get to start enjoying some of the book so good luck with that uh and again everyone

00:59:43.360 um i want to give my wholehearted uh endorsement to this book not just because i loved it not just

00:59:50.920 because elon musk loved it but because my father dr brosman has finished reading it and he loves

00:59:57.100 too. So you can't get a higher endorsement than that. So thank you, God. Thanks so much for

01:00:03.720 joining us. Thank you, Jack. Pleasure talking to you. Cheers.

The Saad Truth with Dr. Saad - July 15, 2026

When Empathy Becomes Suicidal - My Appearance on the Atlas Society Podcast (The Saad Truth with Dr. Saad_1023)

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