The Shadoe Davis Show - December 07, 2024


Dec. 6th⧸2024- (Best of) Regina Watteel author "Fisman's Fraud: The Rise of Hate Science"


Episode Stats


Length

57 minutes

Words per minute

157.15

Word count

9,005

Sentence count

205

Harmful content

Misogyny

1

sentences flagged

Toxicity

4

sentences flagged

Hate speech

2

sentences flagged


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 Welcome to the show, Regina, and thank you for coming on tonight.
00:00:24.780 I was absolutely fascinated with our conversation the other day, and I want to pick that up
00:00:30.000 at some point tonight but first we got to get back to the beginning could you please tell the
00:00:35.400 viewers exactly what your background is who you were before this pandemic and eventually we're
00:00:43.100 going to get to why you wrote the book and then what's in it but just give give the viewers a
00:00:48.040 little bit of a rundown on who you are please okay uh thank you shadow thank you for inviting
00:00:53.920 here tonight. My background for the sciences is I have a Bachelor of Science with a specialty
00:01:02.340 in Applied Math and Theoretical Physics, and I have a Master's of Statistics and a PhD in
00:01:08.240 Statistics. I used to do a lot of consulting. I used to work as a principal statistician for an
00:01:15.480 economics firm, and we did a lot of consulting for the government. We specialized in risk-benefit
00:01:20.220 options analysis. I did step down from my career path years ago, following an accident. So I did
00:01:30.160 have an accident where I was crushed between two vehicles while putting groceries in the trunk of
00:01:35.320 my car. And yeah, it was a bad time, a bad time. So I ended up stepping down and focusing on rehab
00:01:44.500 and family so um i don't know fast forward to to now just to put that out there so my my life took
00:01:53.780 a big turn after that event and i did focus on my my health rehabilitation family we were big into
00:02:00.600 sports the kids sports their education um uh and then the the pandemic hit so
00:02:08.660 So when the pandemic first hit and all of the politicians were running around screaming, two weeks to flatten the curve, as a statistician, how did that hit you?
00:02:23.280 Well, up until the point where the pandemic was hit, I wasn't really paying a lot of notice to what was going on.
00:02:30.060 I was involved with the kids. I remember hearing Premier Ford here in Ottawa saying that he was
00:02:39.280 going to close down the schools for a couple of weeks after the March break. And I was driving
00:02:43.820 down the road and I almost did a 180 back home because I could not believe that just out of the
00:02:50.260 blue he was going to do this. So right away I went on my computer, fired it up, went on,
00:02:56.900 I collected all the stats I can get about what was going on to do a quick, my own quick risk analysis to kind of gauge what the risk was to myself, my kids, my family, people at large.
00:03:13.040 And right away, there was some red flags.
00:03:18.300 Well, I guess at that time, we didn't know because we hadn't heard yet about who this virus would affect or make very ill. Right. We didn't know that. I would have thought because it was a cold like thing or, you know, a viral infection that it would have harmed children and older people alike, like the flu does. But that wasn't the case. Did the statistics show that in the very early days of COVID-19?
00:03:47.140 Yeah, they were tracking this right early on. And when I went on, there was actually quite a bit of information about what was going on over, you know, in Italy and in different parts of the world.
00:04:01.660 And at that particular time, they already there was already information showing that it largely affected the elderly and those with comorbid conditions.
00:04:12.080 And it changed by a factor of about a thousand between the risk for, you know, the youngest and versus the oldest.
00:04:20.440 So they already had that information available.
00:04:23.020 And they also you could see what was going on in, you know, over in Europe before it got here.
00:04:30.700 So you can kind of see the progression.
00:04:34.240 Yeah, but some of the things that were going on in Europe, I mean, like people are going to be going, wait a minute, hold on.
00:04:40.020 They were showing video of people, you know, like falling down dead in the streets in Spain and Italy and China.
00:04:47.360 And they were terrifying people. Right. And we know after how long now that that was never the case.
00:04:52.920 That's not how COVID works. You don't just get it and go and fall down in the middle of in the middle of the street.
00:05:01.280 So what were the numbers from Italy like?
00:05:04.900 Were they much the same as the pandemic went through?
00:05:08.920 Were they much the same as Canada and other countries?
00:05:12.420 Well, I mean, there was some special circumstances in Italy.
00:05:17.480 But when I looked at the data, what I was looking at is all the different parts of the world,
00:05:22.000 how the progression was in terms of the doubling rate between, you know,
00:05:26.780 how long it took to to double the incident rates and about when you'd see the peak and when it
00:05:31.920 would start to come down so i was kind of looking at those kind of trends as well as uh who had
00:05:36.700 impacted the elderly the young that kind of thing so they did they did have um that information
00:05:43.060 available pretty early on um in canada well it was worldwide data so you can see you can see the
00:05:51.620 same trends happening in terms like you know once it started once it started rising you can see when
00:05:57.260 the peaks hit a few weeks after you hit the peak and it would start coming down so you had that
00:06:01.480 same kind of trend in most places except a couple places where it kind of made me laugh because you
00:06:06.480 can see that you couldn't trust the data coming out of places like China and Iran I actually sat
00:06:11.640 down with my husband showed him the curves and we laughed about it you know what's interesting
00:06:16.600 as i think back now three and a half years and all of the different uh infection rates i guess
00:06:24.180 you would call them in all the different provinces across our country and ontario and quebec were so
00:06:30.300 badly hit they were red all over the map and bc and alberta they were getting the two but manitoba
00:06:37.040 and saskatchewan and i noticed this because i live in manitoba were strangely unaffected by this
00:06:42.900 thing and i thought wait a minute how how is that that manitoba and saskatchewan aren't getting the
00:06:49.240 cases that ontario is getting and that bc and alberta are getting it's and this went on for
00:06:54.120 months and people in manitoba were even bragging about it and i thought well we're the covid free
00:07:03.480 province here in manitoba come to manitoba if you want to live right and i thought is that just
00:07:09.740 lagging data or was that the fact that manitoba didn't catch on as quickly to the fraud that was
00:07:16.680 going on in the rest of the country that's an interesting question um
00:07:24.520 when i was looking at the data so i didn't those weren't the questions that i was asking
00:07:32.340 when i was looking at the data i was mostly looking at what the risk was to you know the
00:07:38.300 various members of the family. And also, I'm sorry, were you looking at deaths? Or were you
00:07:42.880 looking at just case counts? Oh, I was looking at both. First of all, I was looking at the cases
00:07:48.740 just to see when it would peak and when it start to fall. And then I was also looking at the deaths
00:07:53.340 and I was trying to I did a quick estimation of what I thought was the infection fatality rate
00:07:58.800 that if you were to get it was what is the chance that, you know, you would die. So you could do
00:08:04.140 this calculation pretty easy early on to get a rough estimate. And right away, you could see
00:08:09.760 that the estimates that they were giving to the public were way off, like by order of magnitude
00:08:15.360 or more. Like you could do that calculation easy early on. And both my husband and I independently
00:08:21.960 arrived at approximately the same IFR. So we knew right away that there were some issues with
00:08:30.320 what we were being told and and and the strategy that the government um developed didn't really
00:08:38.640 make any sense so when you had this information at hand because you're an expert with statistics
00:08:47.280 what did you do with it did you wait for the government to maybe and hope for the government
00:08:54.240 to come out with actual numbers and say that they were mistaken and when that didn't happen
00:08:59.540 what did you do next what was the next course of action
00:09:03.160 well for for us i mean you've got the data right in front of you right you're going wait a minute
00:09:13.260 this is wrong what are they doing right so the first thing so the first thing i did was i talked
00:09:18.600 to my kids i mean my my kids and i talked about it um basically we are of the opinion that they
00:09:24.220 didn't have to worry too much they can go on doing whatever they're going to do i didn't even think
00:09:28.660 they should stop going to school or their sports. I didn't see a reason for it. And for my husband
00:09:35.660 and I, you know, it was, you know, more risk than the kids, but it's still it was manageable. So I
00:09:41.320 mean, we weren't going to go in and party or anything, but we weren't really that concerned
00:09:46.980 when it came to like my parents, we are more concerned with my dad, because he was in very
00:09:51.280 poor health. So we I called my father and talked to him about laying low until we figured out what
00:09:58.240 was going on. And I talked to my siblings who were in healthcare, you know, to, because I was
00:10:05.040 concerned about them, because they would be frontline. So we took the necessary precautions,
00:10:08.900 but we were not. When I looked at the numbers, I thought this is a very interesting virus,
00:10:16.980 because it really did not need to impact the economy the way it did. I mean, it didn't really
00:10:23.820 hit the working class very hard and children were not at high risk so there was really no reason for
00:10:30.580 all the the lockdowns like I thought that they should be doing a more strategic approach
00:10:36.280 and you know more targeted so that was but I mean what did I do next I mean
00:10:43.140 they locked everybody down there really wasn't a lot we could do I mean when they told us on
00:10:48.240 Thursday that this was coming I still went to the gym on Friday I still carried on normally for the
00:10:53.580 weekend. And in the following week, everything started shutting down and then there was nothing
00:10:58.180 you really could do. Right. But when you looked at these statistics, did you notice when they
00:11:06.220 started to fudge numbers, when the case counts started to really go through the roof? Was that
00:11:11.660 like a warning signal to you? Okay, well, that's a funny kind of question. The first
00:11:24.420 thing I was looking at is strategically what made sense for the government to do, kind
00:11:29.640 of like what would be the strategic approach. As time went on, the way they were counting
00:11:33.640 cases started to change, and the reliability of the stats got worse and worse as time went
00:11:40.940 on so that's and then and then you became it became more sensational well it was pretty
00:11:48.120 sensationalized initially but the manipulation became more and more apparent I believe as time
00:11:53.160 went on I could do more with the data in the beginning than later on I guess my question to
00:11:58.780 you then would would be did you notice like when did you first notice that the data was
00:12:04.940 not right that they started to manipulate it
00:12:08.340 my issue was mostly the strategy was was off and then the way they were counting things was off
00:12:22.200 i i i'm not sure how exactly to answer the question that i because i don't that's okay
00:12:26.920 i don't think the way that you're thinking like what you're right you're you're thinking straight
00:12:33.680 statistics right and i'm thinking how can you possibly use statistics to find out what really
00:12:41.780 happened if they're giving you false numbers and you don't know i mean this is what we talked about
00:12:46.840 on the phone the other day by the way guys if you're just joining the show now the author of
00:12:50.980 fisman's fraud the rise of canadian hate science is our guest tonight her name is regina watil and
00:12:56.040 we're happy that she's here my point here is that how can you use statistics to your benefit or to 0.79
00:13:01.720 our benefit if they're giving us crap a load of crap like when they say that somebody and 0.83
00:13:07.820 toronto's health authority admitted this on twitter i couldn't even believe it when somebody 0.98
00:13:13.040 was asking do you count a covet death as a positive case of covet no matter how they die
00:13:18.880 if they fall off a ladder if they're hit by a car if they have brain cancer and the toronto
00:13:24.020 health authority answered yes if the person is covet positive then it's listed as a covet death
00:13:30.360 and they would throw that into their statistics.
00:13:32.920 And I thought, how can they do that?
00:13:34.680 And we know that's not the primary cause of death here.
00:13:37.820 Right.
00:13:38.360 So this would definitely, you know, skew the numbers somewhat.
00:13:43.160 Right.
00:13:43.740 So with COVID deaths, yeah, there's a lot of incidental deaths.
00:13:47.520 So most of the, over 90% of the people who die with COVID
00:13:52.960 have one or more comorbidities.
00:13:55.080 So you can't really say they're dying because of COVID.
00:13:57.480 They've died with COVID.
00:13:58.720 And this was, yeah, this was a big issue throughout the entire pandemic.
00:14:05.160 But initially, the biggest issue I focused on initially was the fact that it really did not impact, like it was not a high risk for the majority of the population.
00:14:17.940 It was a high risk for the elderly and those with a comorbid condition.
00:14:22.980 so it didn't really matter like how they how sensationalized it was how they were counting it
00:14:28.680 um if my kids were were got covid and you couldn't tell or was very mild I don't there was there would
00:14:35.600 be no reason to lock everybody up like so it was really what they were doing based on the data
00:14:40.680 so the manipulation became more of a problem to me when they started using it as an excuse to do
00:14:49.180 things that, that, that the data did not warrant. So they tried to use it to, to, to lock everybody
00:14:55.680 up and they shouldn't. And then they, later they tried to use it to, to scare people into getting
00:15:00.120 the vaccine. So that, that's when the things really worried me because I can push aside all
00:15:09.260 the sensationalism, that stuff, it doesn't really phase me because I can read, read the data and
00:15:15.360 know, you know, basically take the appropriate precautions. But I knew early on that there was
00:15:23.640 a problem because they were acting opposite to what the data suggested they should do. So that's
00:15:28.540 what I was concentrating on. So where did this, I mean, the book is called Fisman's Fraud,
00:15:34.180 The Rise of Canadian Hate Science. It is a number one selling book right now on amazon.ca.
00:15:40.680 And you say Fisman's fraud. For those of us outside of Ontario, we know that Dr. David Fisman was a member of the Ontario Science Table. Is he the one that came up with this modeling that the government used to jam these lockdowns and vaccines down our throats?
00:15:56.500 well the the the book that i i wrote gets into a particular um study that dr fisman and his two
00:16:06.920 colleagues did so dr fisman worked along two um colleagues uh ashley a tweet and afia amiko
00:16:15.000 amoko sorry i'm not good with pronunciation um but what they did was uh they developed a model
00:16:23.400 and this was after the Omicron surge. So we just went through Omicron and these researchers
00:16:31.600 basically concocted a model to show that unvaccinated people pose a disproportionate
00:16:37.960 risk to society. So they concocted this model and then they tried to pass off their fabricated 0.90
00:16:47.500 results as fact so this is where the issue is so at the time there was real world data that
00:16:54.400 posted by the um government of ontario and for omicron it showed the very opposite it showed
00:17:01.820 that vaccinated individuals had a higher incident rate than unvaccinated unvaccinated individuals
00:17:08.860 but um you know that doesn't no matter what kind of manipulation they did it was not looking good
00:17:15.600 for the vaccines so with with fismans basically concocted a model that basically said the opposite
00:17:24.400 tried to pass it off as the real deal and then advocated for vaccine mandates and passports
00:17:31.900 so basically overwrote the omicron wave with a fake simulation saying the opposite so
00:17:37.680 this guy who is still by the way advocating for vaccines on his x page he calls himself
00:17:44.860 cis cis cis cis man now so we obviously know where his politics lie but when you say concocted
00:17:52.920 you did this guy like does he have a history of modeling these kinds of things these kind
00:17:58.060 kind of epidemiological breakouts elsewhere in the world so he he he's a physician but he's also
00:18:07.280 an epidemiologist so and he teaches mathematical modeling and when i say concocted i mean he
00:18:12.640 developed a model it was a deterministic model completely determined by whatever you feed it
00:18:17.780 and he you feed it the inputs to get the outputs that you want so it was actually a very simple
00:18:23.160 model pretty much governed by just a couple of parameters which is like the immunity of one
00:18:28.420 group versus the immunity of the other he put in the inputs that would give him the desired outputs
00:18:33.440 and and basically it was used to to scapegoat the the unvaccinated and to justify vaccine
00:18:41.120 passports mandates and and restrictions so he comes up with this as a member of the ontario
00:18:47.140 science table right so he's like well no he had actually so he was on the ontario science table
00:18:53.000 but he had stepped down by this point oh interesting so he still had a voice with the
00:18:58.620 government i guess because this is the modeling they used to lock us down once again at least
00:19:04.460 in ontario and as i mentioned to you on the telephone the other day what happens in ontario
00:19:09.360 generally spreads to the rest of Canada, both ways,
00:19:13.340 out to the Maritimes and out west to where we are?
00:19:15.860 Because, let's face it,
00:19:17.260 Ontario is the largest and most influential province in our country.
00:19:21.420 Right.
00:19:22.280 Well, if you remember the timing of this,
00:19:26.180 so the Omicron wave hit, we had the Freedom Convoy,
00:19:30.120 there was a lot of pressure for the provinces
00:19:32.580 to get rid of their passports and restrictions,
00:19:36.960 But the federal government was clinging on to the vaccine mandates and the travel restrictions.
00:19:45.920 So this is when Fisman's study was released on April 25th, 2022.
00:19:52.880 And so four days later, this study appeared in Parliament.
00:19:56.480 It was waved around by a Liberal MP to justify extending the travel restrictions.
00:20:01.360 So that's the timing of this study.
00:20:05.720 But the study was funded by the federal government through CIHR.
00:20:10.160 So CIHR funded the study, and it was published in the Canadian Medical Association Journal.
00:20:16.460 And it was taken up by dozens and dozens of media with the headlines basically warning of hanging out with us.
00:20:27.220 So did you know by the time this model had come out that it was fake?
00:20:33.480 Had you seen it yet?
00:20:34.760 Or did you have to take the time to go, all right, I want to have a look at this and break it down then? 0.62
00:20:40.100 Well, when it first broke and I heard it on the radio, I just dismissed it as just a really garbage study.
00:20:46.520 But then I kept hearing it over and over again.
00:20:48.860 And I thought, what's going on?
00:20:49.960 This is obviously incorrect because I was paying very close attention to the real world data.
00:20:57.640 And I knew exactly what it said over that exact period.
00:21:00.280 And I knew even what the graphs looked like because I had looked at them before.
00:21:05.440 So when I went into a study and I read it, I was wondering how it could possibly happen.
00:21:11.400 Right away, it was obvious it was a textbook case of scientific fraud.
00:21:15.560 He fabricated the results and then tried to pass it off as a true reflection of what occurred.
00:21:22.740 You can't do that. That's the definition of fabrication, of scientific fraud.
00:21:27.940 Go ahead.
00:21:29.180 sorry and and then he went even further like not only did he did you concoct uh fabricate the data
00:21:36.820 try to pass it off as fact the real data was readily available and he ignored it so and then
00:21:44.640 when it was brought to their attention they didn't correct and they refused to correct
00:21:48.080 by this time did we i i'm sorry because my timelines get all screwed up every now and again
00:21:55.980 because it's it's just so difficult so many things have happened over the past three years
00:22:00.640 but you've you've got them locked down obviously you wrote the book um when did we find out for
00:22:07.780 sure that there were breakthrough cases with this gene therapy was it when omicron came out
00:22:15.240 is that when the media started talking about it or was it way before that like omicron was like
00:22:20.820 was it not november of 2021 or october of 2021 when that wave hit okay so breakthrough cases
00:22:31.860 were already well established in the delta period all right all right so we so so the vaccine was
00:22:38.980 rolled out in uh start it started in december 2020 but that was just you know mostly for um
00:22:46.320 physicians and healthcare workers so most of the people started taking it you know I think
00:22:52.720 started ramping up March April May of 2021 and then the second dose started ramping up in the
00:22:59.960 middle of June but even in even by the spring of 2021 early in the rollout breakthrough cases
00:23:07.940 were quite common they were so common that the CDC stopped tracking breakthrough cases and only
00:23:14.700 started tracking the ones that resulted in hospitalization like breakthrough cases are
00:23:19.160 pretty common and by by July of 2021 the summer of 2021 when people are getting their second doses
00:23:27.240 there was already some really big outbreaks amongst mostly vaccinated populations so you had
00:23:36.220 huge outbreaks even in Delta when they are telling you that you know get vaccinated so you don't
00:23:42.780 transmit so that you don't you know get sick they already knew at that time that it didn't stop
00:23:48.800 transmission and that vaccinated people when they get it were about as likely to pass it on as
00:23:55.220 unvaccinated they knew this before the mandates came in all right before but what happened is
00:24:03.460 by you know end of november early december you have omicron hold on hold on before you get to
00:24:10.500 Omegra, let me stop you for a second there, because to me, like we knew the people who were following all of this stuff through the Delta outbreak, we knew there was breakthrough cases.
00:24:21.420 We knew there were reports of cruise ships getting outbreaks of covid, even though all the people on these boats were vaccinated with two doses.
00:24:30.220 We knew that there were getting outbreaks in extended care homes and all of the people in there were vaccinated.
00:24:37.600 So we knew all about this, but the government never admitted it, like not right out front.
00:24:43.240 As a matter of fact, I recall both Joe Biden and Justin Trudeau going on TV and saying this is a pandemic of the unvaccinated.
00:24:53.660 Right. So we can say they knew. And we could be fairly right about it. 0.96
00:25:00.860 But they were still lying to people to get them to take the vaccine.
00:25:05.880 so right so one of the things so one of the things that my book does is that it carves a path
00:25:15.400 through the pandemic and it compares what was known and when to what we were being told it
00:25:23.740 lays it right out so you can kind of see how they don't add up so yeah so so and and and it makes
00:25:34.300 it pretty clear it's actually pretty incriminating um we we did know a lot of things and they did
00:25:40.720 know a lot of things and when you look at reports written by the federal government i mean the media
00:25:45.060 didn't pick up on them and they didn't report them but even what was being uh reported by like
00:25:51.840 the chief uh science government scientists it admitted a lot of things it admitted they didn't
00:25:57.960 know if it stopped transmission and they didn't know how long it would last and they they didn't
00:26:02.700 know a lot of things and and it's right out there but that's not what was talked about
00:26:07.600 and they did know about breakthrough cases in delta well what they what they talked about
00:26:14.780 at the very beginning was it's night was it 97 or 95 percent effective at stopping the virus
00:26:22.620 isn't that what they said and i think pfizer and moderna were pretty close 96 95 or whatever
00:26:27.680 and then the next week it was 92 and then the week after that it was 88 and then the week after
00:26:32.520 that it was 83 and so on and so on the efficacy kept getting worse and worse and worse as more
00:26:40.340 people got vaccinated and yet people still kept it's amazing what the media and government and
00:26:48.300 that propaganda machine can do right oh yeah it's it's the gaslighting has been extraordinary and
00:26:56.120 and and there's been gaslighting not just by you know the politicians there was scientific gaslighting
00:27:01.780 I mean, when you look at FISM and study here, that is got to be one of the biggest cases of scientific gaslighting I ever saw.
00:27:08.840 You can see for yourself, you know, right on on even with the government data, you can see for yourself that with 80 percent of the population vaccinated, the cases soared to to to, you know, five times what they were before.
00:27:24.680 That's after the vaccination rollout.
00:27:26.920 um and then you know you write you do a study that you know you concoct a study that tries to
00:27:33.560 to flip things around and say nope it still works and then people go along with it you're like
00:27:37.740 it feels like you're in an alternate universe so you right i mean we've all felt like that
00:27:45.420 over the last three and a half years so thank you and and you know what i need to pick this up now
00:27:50.520 because i want those concurrent timelines when we knew and they were gaslighting i'm fascinated
00:27:58.840 because i forget all of that stuff as i've been covering this for the last three three and a half
00:28:04.180 years now every single day it just gets a lot and it gets all jumbled up but it's hard to remember
00:28:08.800 exact dates i probably should have written them down at the time but so much was going on so
00:28:13.360 quickly and i think that was probably in the plan as well keep them confused keep them guessing keep
00:28:19.700 them off balance um moving forward when you had all of this data and you knew about fistman's
00:28:27.780 fraud what did you do at that point with that with that incorrect data compared to what you came up
00:28:33.680 with well well here's the thing i was not the only one like this was pretty blatant there was a lot
00:28:40.400 of scientists who complained a lot of scientists wrote to to cmaj said hey this is scapegoating
00:28:46.660 and you're just scapegoating the unvaccinated.
00:28:49.180 It's opposite of what reality says.
00:28:51.780 I'm not the only one who said this.
00:28:54.500 And quite a few people, myself included,
00:28:57.300 asked for that paper to be retracted
00:28:59.320 and for the record to be set straight.
00:29:03.080 CMAJ would not engage in dialogue,
00:29:05.800 and they did not retract the paper.
00:29:08.140 So then I went to University of Toronto
00:29:11.740 and asked them to investigate this.
00:29:14.840 and back and forth with them um sponsored this paper uh gina was it the university of toronto
00:29:22.360 who initially put this out well the university of toronto is where the researchers are from
00:29:27.600 or the university of toronto and so you i went to the university of toronto because they have
00:29:32.980 an integrity office and i asked them to to look into it and it was funded by cihr but cihr has
00:29:42.200 an agreement that if there's an issue with the funding it would be the organization like
00:29:49.300 University of Toronto to look into it so I'd have to go to University of Toronto first
00:29:53.080 and when they slammed the door then I went to CIHR and with CIHR I felt they had a duty because
00:29:59.960 the study was used in parliament and when the study is used in parliament to justify restrictions
00:30:05.300 There's a duty to set the record straight. And the president, the tri-agency presidents, their CHR president, NSERC and SSHRC, they decided, nope, they're not going to do anything.
00:30:22.740 So basically, my book goes through and discusses what the response of these organizations were.
00:30:28.920 And then when they decided not to do anything, I escalated and I went to the Ontario Provincial Police.
00:30:35.300 Because when I was digging around, I was finding a lot more.
00:30:40.300 And I believed it was time to bring in the OPP.
00:30:44.980 So I did.
00:30:45.820 I wrote them a 150-page report.
00:30:48.100 And I sent it off to them.
00:30:53.340 Well, I detail it pretty good in my book.
00:30:57.460 But suffice it to say.
00:30:58.980 Were there ever any?
00:30:59.440 I don't want to go into details here.
00:31:02.120 And I know that people are going to be buying this book.
00:31:04.860 i'm going to be buying this book um but what kind of a reaction did you get from ut and from
00:31:12.400 the opp like were they did they seem did you speak with anybody face to face and did they seem to
00:31:20.220 take it seriously like yes ma'am we will look into this definitely and we'll let you know
00:31:25.660 or was it just get out of here you crazy anti-vaxxer
00:31:29.340 no they didn't they didn't call me an anti-vaxxer um they they have here's the thing at first I
00:31:39.580 wanted this paper retracted and in the record set straight as time went on and they were very
00:31:46.120 very resistant it became very clear there was much more to this so I I started thinking it
00:31:51.260 in terms of me giving them the opportunity to do the correct to do the right thing and
00:31:57.480 they had a decision to make whether they would do the right thing and correct the record and
00:32:03.560 investigate, or if they would basically be complicit in what is textbook fraud. So I was
00:32:14.120 pretty happy either way. They can tell, at least they told me where they stand, right? And when
00:32:20.560 they did that, it tells me something. It tells me where we are in this game, apparently.
00:32:25.040 um you must have been wondering at that point like how high up does this go how high up does
00:32:33.080 it go why why they're doing it so you start looking at that that that study more and more
00:32:39.320 and you start reading you start listening exactly to what they're telling you and it wasn't just
00:32:45.300 about scapegoating the unvaccinated.
00:32:49.860 This was, what happens is FISMEN study
00:32:52.620 is central to the pandemic response, all right?
00:32:58.940 If you do not have a reduction in transmission,
00:33:02.760 if you don't have that,
00:33:04.240 then you do not have justification for the mandates.
00:33:07.040 You do not have justification for those restrictions, period.
00:33:10.400 They're trying to dance around it now
00:33:12.120 and there's a lot of arguments
00:33:13.820 their tactics. But if you do not have transmission, they are in trouble. And
00:33:21.660 this shows that when they were in trouble, and you could not establish that, that they resorted
00:33:27.980 to fraud. That is very damning. And it goes beyond, we didn't know, because what I show is
00:33:36.520 they did know they knew and they locked in and and and and that's very powerful
00:33:44.020 that's fair that you go to any did you go to any politicians with this
00:33:50.480 um before before i wrote the book well with the statistics once you knew like you put that 150
00:34:00.840 pages report together for the opp and you got no satisfaction with that the university of toronto
00:34:06.100 rejected you and shut the door so did you go write the book immediately after that or did
00:34:11.820 you think well maybe if I go to a politician you know like maybe I can take this to Derek Sloan
00:34:16.520 or maybe I can take this to a conservative MPP or even a conservative MP or somebody who would
00:34:23.880 be interested in seeing this because it's clear fraud it is clear fraud but what happens is that
00:34:30.740 I would go to at first, you know, I was hopeful. So I just kind of went step by step, you know,
00:34:36.400 from CMS to each one. It became pretty clear by the time I hit CIHR, even before they came back
00:34:45.340 with their answer. I was thinking, well, what happens when they say, no, too bad. At that point,
00:34:52.960 I had gotten some more information about what was going on in CMAJ. And they didn't just it's
00:34:59.840 it appeared that they didn't just publish it there was there was a little bit more to their
00:35:04.140 involvement um so I knew before getting my information back from CIHR that I would be
00:35:11.440 writing to the OPP and I had already started on that path writing to the OPP and then as I was
00:35:16.900 writing to the OPP I thought what happens if they come back and they don't investigate
00:35:22.180 is is that the end and I thought if if they don't come if they do not investigate then
00:35:27.920 this is going to be turned into a book and people will and I'm just going to put it into a book but
00:35:34.820 the thing is that there's a lot of power in establishing a textbook case of fraud
00:35:44.400 and I think that it's very very important for people to see it
00:35:49.900 um because i think at this point it changes the it changes the ball game all right they can no
00:35:58.460 longer deny that they knew it was no longer you know oopsie we made a mistake or you know things
00:36:05.980 changed nope this is this is this is there was intent here and i think that's very important
00:36:13.340 for those who are fighting um you know there's a lot of people who lost their jobs there's a lot
00:36:20.080 of people who have been going through the courts and uh i'm hoping that this can can change can
00:36:26.580 change things it's a number one or at least was last week a number one bestseller on amazon.ca
00:36:33.900 talking to our friend derek smith who had the number two book with his new uh dr seuss style
00:36:40.520 book about justin trudeau i think this one is about is that how the prime minister stole christmas
00:36:47.240 or maybe i i can't remember exactly the title of the new one i apologize derek if you're watching
00:36:51.400 right now but uh he was telling me about some problems that he has had with amazon in terms
00:36:59.320 of distribution and fudging numbers because one week he was number one and the next week he was
00:37:05.960 down to number 38 and he was like wait wait what what what happened all of a sudden have you had
00:37:13.300 any difficulties at all with amazon here in canada in getting the book out or any other means of
00:37:20.440 distribution yeah because my book because of the the title of the book's pretty bold and um so i
00:37:29.540 did not do any pre-release press like I just kind of it just kind of got out there uh at a certain
00:37:37.300 at a certain time so when it got out um I just did a few days of pre-order and then it went
00:37:43.720 up for publication and the publication date was the seventh the issue I had was I had established
00:37:49.920 links the pre-orders were going well um that's when you get the the number one in in uh some of
00:37:57.260 the categories in Canada. And then the day the actual publication day hit, which was November
00:38:05.080 7th, all of a sudden, my links were cut, the Amazon links were cut, and nobody could buy the
00:38:15.600 book. And nobody could buy it for like, on Amazon for like, over a week. And there was like, I was
00:38:23.360 calling them every day um it was very bizarre uh i i never got a straight answer about what happened
00:38:31.700 my what i think happened is from what i gather from what i was told is that uh maybe uh well
00:38:41.740 the content was flagged but i'm guessing probably through ai and that created the disruption and
00:38:48.240 maybe then people had to look at it and they had to get people involved uh it seems to be sorted
00:38:52.800 out but that was a very rocky start um in the meanwhile i started establishing a link to like
00:39:00.080 indigo and that's for freedom put it on their website so we were doing workarounds
00:39:06.640 so it wasn't i can't say it was smooth but it seems to be sorted out now interesting that you
00:39:15.140 bring up ai because we had this great discussion last week about artificial intelligence um with
00:39:22.140 Karen Kingston. And we were talking, how did these governments all align and work in such
00:39:29.540 lockstep with each other? And I'm not talking about provinces in our country. I'm talking
00:39:35.000 about federal governments from all over the world, all wanting to build back better all at the same
00:39:41.220 time. As Justin Trudeau said, this pandemic provides a unique opportunity to build back
00:39:50.680 better ed boris johnson in the uk at the time said it joe biden said it you know i mean all
00:39:57.980 of these guys were saying it's ai it's the same reason that people are having their bank accounts
00:40:03.740 canceled it's the same have you had any problems like that at all with my no not those bank accounts
00:40:11.840 or a paypal account or anything at all no i haven't had any anything to do with the bank
00:40:19.040 accounts are our PayPal accounts, but I don't really have much of a PayPal account. So, I mean,
00:40:24.060 I don't do much on PayPal. You do have a bank account, so you've got to watch out for that. I
00:40:30.820 mean, more notorious people than ourselves have been debanked. Jeremy McKenzie, obviously, is the
00:40:36.900 first one that comes to mind. They actually debanked him for, they never really say. They
00:40:43.120 just say, we don't want your business. And that's the thing about it, right? It's all in their terms
00:40:47.120 and conditions so you can't fight it because you signed that 27 page contract with the fine print
00:40:53.020 smaller than oh let's say a nanoparticle that could be found in a certain gene therapy that
00:41:02.340 people have been taking across the world it's very very small so sales have been good now
00:41:08.260 now that you're back on track everything is going well people are buying this what kind of comments
00:41:12.260 are you getting well the feedback's been excellent like i i'm i'm i i can't i can't explain how how
00:41:21.020 good the feedback has been um the people who read it like some of the things that are people are
00:41:27.420 saying is that when they read it they go through it they get quite angry at places some get very
00:41:33.660 very emotional um but in the end a lot of people feel validated and empowered so there is a feeling
00:41:40.220 of empowerment by the time they're finished with this book um it does uh like i said uh give a
00:41:47.420 clear uh carve a good path through the pandemic so you get your timelines you know straight because
00:41:53.060 like you said shadow people you know so many things happen that you forget when they happen
00:41:57.840 so this this is very good that way and that you you have a clear path through the pandemic
00:42:02.780 It gives context as to how this study was used and why it's very important that it doesn't go forward, that something happens, because there's more to this.
00:42:18.920 People have to realize there's more to this than just a small little study scapegoating.
00:42:23.960 Um, the, the, the authors, the researchers were pretty clear in that what they were trying to
00:42:31.860 demonstrate was that, um, vaccine choice, uh, should not be left to the individual. So basically
00:42:40.560 it shouldn't, it comes down to not regarding vaccine choice as an individual right. And this
00:42:48.680 goes right towards the charter and and and kind of reinterpreting the charter no right was violated
00:42:54.440 here it shouldn't even be considered an individual right like it's scary stuff um and and and the fact
00:43:01.000 is that that demonstration was based on fraud so there's actually it brings a really strong
00:43:08.060 argument as to why we need protections and i think that it's very very important that um we get them
00:43:15.600 there's a lot of people who have certain knowledge of what's happened in this country
00:43:23.460 in the last three and a half years and they've chosen to stay quiet about it they'd rather not
00:43:28.020 talk they don't want to rock the boat they don't want to put themselves at risk of losing anything
00:43:33.760 you're different in that way you wanted to get the word out you even ran in the last election
00:43:39.440 for the people's party of canada in a writing that uh you might get tarred and feathered for
00:43:44.560 you know running for that party i mean that is a liberal stronghold that you're in right now
00:43:50.460 and i'm sure you got a lot of sideways looks at the very least why were you so adamant
00:43:58.520 about getting this information out to people
00:44:02.240 well that was summer of 2021 and in the summer of 2021 they were making the vaccine mandates uh
00:44:11.880 the universities were requiring that students get mandated, sorry, students get vaccinated in order
00:44:18.700 to attend a university campus. I had two, my two older children were in university. They were
00:44:24.680 varsity level athletes in track and field. They were both, you know, set to go to the nationals
00:44:31.580 when the pandemic hit. So they were top competitors and neither one of them want to
00:44:38.360 take this vaccine. Both of them were banned from varsity sports. Both of them were banned from
00:44:44.800 campus. When Trudeau announced the election, he also talked about mandating the vaccine for
00:44:55.060 federal workers. I had stepped down from, you know, I hadn't, I had stepped down from my career
00:45:00.560 path. So we were single income here and we were dependent on, my husband works for the federal
00:45:05.700 government so we were hit very very hard by the mandates along with many other people and I could
00:45:12.560 not believe that they could bring the mandates in given that there was absolutely no justification
00:45:19.360 for them statistically you could show there was no justification whatsoever for the mandates at
00:45:25.040 the time they were being introduced you could show that so I stepped up and ran yeah but there
00:45:35.200 was a lot of people who knew the information that we knew they didn't have the statistical proof
00:45:41.440 like you had because they weren't able to work it out for themselves but they knew and yet they
00:45:46.720 refused to do anything about it but you were different so what inside of you made you do this
00:45:54.400 was it your kids not wanting to take this vaccine and being denied sports you had a lot at stake here
00:46:02.500 i think that we all have a lot of stake maybe at stake people just don't see it
00:46:08.060 i did not see this going well no matter what you did um like i i can see you can see the trainwreck
00:46:16.020 happening you know from miles away and you're just not able to stop it i could see the problem
00:46:20.400 right from the get-go and with the mandates it i think that it was the kids not just my kids
00:46:28.060 but kids in general there there was absolutely no reason for any any child at all to take these
00:46:34.380 vaccines and there was already that there there's a lot of uncertainty with the vaccines and even
00:46:42.900 what we did know was not good when it came to the children we already knew about myocarditis
00:46:48.160 when when when they were mandating these for the universities and we knew that the highest risk was
00:46:53.180 for you know kids that were my boy's age like it was but i think maternal instinct is is probably
00:47:02.640 what pushed me over the edge when it came to running for the ppc i just couldn't the children
00:47:08.520 should shouldn't yeah what about writing the book and getting that report out to the opp i mean was
00:47:16.180 that the same motivation no it's not it's not quite the same motivation um like you said a lot
00:47:26.080 of us knew that there were you know people we were being deceived we were being lied to um but there
00:47:32.800 was no accountability whatsoever and i went to the opp and i went and wrote the book because
00:47:40.200 this study was different from all these studies it's not just oh they lied they deceived this
00:47:47.020 study because it was a textbook case of scientific fraud you can show um you can establish intent
00:47:53.800 and when you establish intent um that's very powerful for for those of us who want to get
00:48:02.480 the truth out you can now start to do something in terms of accountability this this could be
00:48:06.920 their Achilles heel like this really does change things have you made contact with any
00:48:14.520 attorneys at all is there any kind of legal action that you've looked at pursuing
00:48:20.120 uh well I have reached out like I've talked to a couple of constitutional lawyers just on the side
00:48:29.260 because I was when I was researching my book I wanted to um discuss some of the things I put in
00:48:34.900 my book so just just on the side i just reached out to a couple to get some feedback um in terms
00:48:42.040 of some of legal action i have nothing going on right now all my energy went into getting this
00:48:46.900 together and as soon as it was together and it was you know the way i wanted it it went out so
00:48:53.040 um i think i on i have a a podcast coming up on december the 8th with um leighton gray and that
00:49:01.980 will be interesting because he has you know some court cases and i really would love to talk to him
00:49:07.720 about how this if this can be leveraged in any way to help that out like that that really does
00:49:14.660 interest me yeah i'm sure that he would have i mean he he's been one of the few attorneys across
00:49:21.500 this country who have been doing work like this uh because he also sees the monster that we're
00:49:27.340 facing right now he was on the show a couple of weeks ago and uh yeah i definitely he's probably
00:49:32.500 he'll probably take the case on i'm not sure what he's going to do with it because he's got that big
00:49:37.120 uh what do you call those multi uh cases he's got yeah he's got a big class action going on right
00:49:45.140 now across three different sections of people who've been harmed by the lockdowns and the
00:49:48.800 vaccine so and and all these other cases going on on the side so this may he may find somebody who
00:49:55.000 could do it you know on your behalf if he can't do it but i can tell you uh without speaking for
00:50:01.540 him that i'll bet he'd be interested in this case you've got factual evidence that it's a fraud
00:50:09.500 as you say it is a textbook case of fraud and there's so many people complicit in it not just
00:50:16.680 david fissman but the government of ontario the government of canada i mean this report
00:50:25.260 commissioned by the university of toronto we know that david fissman has taken money from pfizer we
00:50:31.000 know that he has taken money from astrazeneca but how did this particular model like was it his
00:50:37.720 influence with the ontario science table uh gina did this help get it out there how did he get
00:50:45.240 wrapped up with the federal government because they use that as well right well david fisman was
00:50:51.280 involved in in the the pandemic response uh at every level of government so he was doing modeling
00:50:58.680 um right i think before the pandemic was even called in february 2020 he received grant money
00:51:05.700 to to to model the the pandemic so he was already on the federal radar early on and he was called
00:51:13.180 into the house of commons to speak you know in may of 2020 so he was already involved so
00:51:19.420 he did not need the ontario science table to reach the federal government um but yes when he
00:51:26.520 when he was on the interior science table of course that did advise a lot of different
00:51:31.180 organizations so that just something like this i mean you've got to be able to take this to a
00:51:36.020 pretty influential member of the government whether it's an elected official or a bureaucrat
00:51:41.040 right because this is heavy duty they're going to put all of their eggs in this basket man i mean
00:51:46.640 like okay we're going on your report fisman so this better be right well this this report was
00:51:53.200 very different i mean the second it was published media ran with it media does not run with with
00:52:00.880 with these studies like the way they did with this fisman study you're looking at i think over 90
00:52:05.900 media outlets over 100 stories ran with this basically warning of hanging around with the
00:52:12.400 unvaccinated and and it was unbelievable it got um what is it the number number two cited studies
00:52:22.540 they've ever had in first cmaj i have to look up on my table but it's very it got a lot of publicity
00:52:31.700 And like I said, within four days of the publication, it was waived around in Parliament.
00:52:35.980 And this was at a time that they were looking for anything to justify these restrictions against the unvaccinated.
00:52:46.080 Absolutely unbelievable.
00:52:47.740 I'd love to see what happens next with the information that is contained in this book.
00:52:54.120 It would be amazing if we could get these people held to account.
00:52:58.980 And we could go right up to the top of the food chain here and maybe even get Justin Trudeau on this because he was complicit.
00:53:08.420 They all were complicit.
00:53:09.820 Doug Ford, right? 0.96
00:53:11.420 Teresa Tam, all of them who had been spouting the best way to stop the spread is to get vaccinated.
00:53:23.880 You will not be able to sit on a plane or a train.
00:53:26.920 Remember all that stuff?
00:53:28.180 Of course you do.
00:53:28.980 oh yeah that's that's in the book i mean we there's some really beautiful quotes there by
00:53:34.000 by by trudeau what is that one that you mentioned earlier before we went on when he was in that
00:53:39.920 french language interview what do we do with these people i think it was yeah do we tolerate
00:53:45.760 these people right do we so yeah that was that was some pretty dark times um but he he's made
00:53:52.680 some pretty strong statements throughout this entire ordeal and and when you go through things
00:53:58.520 that he has said. It's pretty enlightening. If you look at what he said versus what the
00:54:03.020 government was doing at the time, it's very, very telling. It is very telling. That's chapter six.
00:54:11.220 And the judicial notice is chapter 13, you told me the other day. You're in the Ottawa area. Did
00:54:17.760 you get a chance to go to the Freedom Convoy at all when it was happening? Yeah, the Freedom Convoy
00:54:23.080 it was a godsend to our family. We went, I went to the convoy 13 times and then I went afterwards
00:54:30.300 when they were pretty much gone just to see how it was, like what was left over. But yeah, 13 times
00:54:35.700 I went. It was fantastic. Like it was, it was a lifesaver for us at the time. We were going
00:54:43.860 through a pretty, pretty big low. I mean, we had our exemptions. My husband's exemptions were denied
00:54:49.040 um two days before christmas and we had spent all of january writing a grievance and the day
00:54:56.780 he handed his grievances was was the day that the truckers came into town and uh yeah we we
00:55:04.180 i'm actually very very thankful for for the freedom convoy it it gave a lot of um
00:55:11.520 much needed hope and unity it was great i think you should write a book about that
00:55:18.040 gina thank you for coming on the show tonight we really appreciate it uh run out you guys
00:55:26.040 get fisman's fraud the rise of canadian hate science it's available at indigo and amazon.ca
00:55:32.780 right now let's keep it at number one i will get you on again talk about more stuff thank
00:55:37.520 you gina for coming on tonight regina with teal everybody thank you shadow
00:55:48.040 Thank you.
00:56:18.040 We'll be right back.
00:56:48.040 We'll be right back.