00:09:50.440you've been a counselor there for 12 years since 2013 right 2013 October 2013 was my first term
00:09:57.600okay so since you've been there what has changed with the environment with the people that you're
00:10:06.220surrounded by what what is incredibly different because you know when Lisa comes on she's a new
00:10:12.500counselor right she's only going through her first term unpaid mind you doing all the work but still
00:10:17.140unpaid she's had her salary suspended five times she's learning the ropes and she's doing very well
00:10:22.840she's a fast learner but you've been around for a long time you're a veteran and so I want to find
00:10:27.400out you know the differences between now and then you know I uh one thing I've learned certainly0.66
00:10:33.980over this for this term is um how how truly ignorant by definition by definition of that
00:10:43.480that uh word um people who run for any elected position are and we're really at the mercy0.83
00:10:53.400of the bureaucrats and it doesn't matter what level of government um you know you decide to
00:11:00.800uh you know participate in because it essentially the i mean the people who run
00:11:09.260There's no training for it. There's no, I mean, certainly you can have a background in your, you know, your personal life, your profession that would certainly enhance or, you know, would be useful in your position as an elected official.
00:11:29.260But at the end of the day, it's the it's the bureaucratic positions that are the ones who and in specifically in municipal politics or municipal governance, it's the CAO or chief administrative officer or city manager, town manager who is.
00:11:47.780And this is what I was told, you know, when when I first started that position or that individual in that position is supposed to be the trusted advisor to the elected officials.
00:12:02.060So, you know, it's extremely important that that person be ethical and moral, because if they're not, then essentially the final decisions rest with the council, of course.
00:12:24.300But if that individual wants a decision to go a particular way, then basically they can tell us what they want to tell us by omitting information, by adding information, by convoluting information.
00:12:41.100And we're none the wiser. It's funny because I saw that I watched the interview. I've been following Lisa for quite a while now.
00:12:49.700And when she mentioned that her CAO, when they were renovating their council chambers, that their CAO was now going to be sitting up with the council.
00:13:02.380Yeah. I mean, and this may sound shocking to some, but our CAO sat, I mean, remember, like I said, I started in 2013.
00:13:15.220As a matter of fact, there were five new councillors out of a council of seven along with me.
00:13:20.300So we relied very heavily on, you know, their expertise.
00:13:25.280But I didn't know that the CAO wasn't to be sitting beside the mayor up until probably March of 22.
00:13:34.400And it was only, honest to goodness, and it, you know, I only know what I've been told, right?
00:13:42.860And so it wasn't until a councillor from a neighbouring municipality asked me why our CAO was sitting up beside the mayor, and I, you know, obviously said, what are you talking about?
00:13:54.660and and you know in this conversation she said to me well ours doesn't ours sits with the rest of
00:14:01.680the administration so of course I got off that phone call with her and I googled like a mad woman
00:14:06.860and I you know did a little research of the uh you know with um other municipalities throughout
00:14:12.940Alberta and lo and behold she's right I so I mean that sounds very simple but that's exactly what I
00:14:21.640mean i mean we go um no it's very symbolic of the power structure right or what the power structure
00:14:29.840shouldn't be as compared to what they're they're portraying to the people of whatever community
00:14:36.860they're purportedly serving can you break down because you mentioned this earlier and there's
00:14:42.760been a lot of conversation in the comments of this show and others that i know especially recently
00:15:18.780but they're usually within the administration so when you say that these people can hoodwink
00:15:25.260counselors let's just say is that something that's easy to do is it like a radar colonel
00:15:30.680blake situation from mash like just sign here sir or is it like are you still like my age now
00:15:36.080my friend because i know exactly who you're talking about um no no no nothing like that
00:15:43.980i'm just teasing yes is it like that or or do counselors actually do the work do the reading
00:15:49.640put in the required time to make sure that they know what they're signing um again it
00:15:56.680that's that's a really when i say elected officials are at the mercy of the bureaucrats
00:16:05.520i mean it because there's it's not like i mean now i'm i'm uh i can recite the municipal
00:16:13.200Government Act, that's a threat, right? Or the Freedom of Information and Privacy, they've
00:16:18.780changed that act recently. But, you know, for the most part, the average person wouldn't
00:16:27.540be versed in legislation, right? And so to familiarize yourself as an elected official
00:16:38.060with the acts that, you know, we are governed by, certainly.
00:16:42.640But in the, you know, that's at a high level.
00:16:45.920That's where we rely, and again, in this case, the CAO to interpret and apply whatever legislation
00:16:57.420to whatever decision we have to make, right?
00:17:01.400And so it's, it really, it's, it's, um, it's blind trust to be, to begin with. And in, in my case, um, the, really the thing that's prompted me or that's put me where I am now is because, uh, I've been asking questions and the answers that I've, that I've received have, um, prompted me to go and look at legislation and whatnot.
00:17:30.580So I've educated myself. And as a matter of fact, if there's one thing that I would hope to come out of, you know, my last three and a half years, it's to figure out a way to educate incoming elected officials, as well as the communities.
00:17:51.300because you know in the introduction of your of your show i mean apathy is rampant it doesn't
00:17:57.160matter what level of of um politics you uh talk about we're all this it's all the same we're all
00:18:04.040the same voters right so but it's certainly the case where the at the municipal level i mean i
00:18:12.800can go i as a matter of fact on a daily basis i speak with people about my position in some way
00:18:19.660shape or form as their counselor right so um but going back to your question it's uh
00:18:27.600we rely we rely on the on the administration of the municipality to sort of guide us yes
00:18:36.400have you ever had an altercation with any of the administration because you wanted something they
00:18:44.940didn't deliver or you noticed something wasn't quite right with the information you received
00:18:50.020from them oh my gosh that's been my last three and a half years okay good so hang on a second
00:18:56.280i wanted like i took this out of the uh the mocha piece today uh this is you uh having a conversation
00:19:02.920let's say to be nice about it with a couple of uh other city councillors i want to get your take on
00:19:08.940what happened here after we watch you're buried yeah i would like i would like to encourage
00:19:14.260councillor harris to um put forward a motion if she is if she would like to do that uh other than
00:19:23.000other than that i would like us to move ahead i'm glad you'd like us to move ahead i would like to
00:19:29.220know why we took out two and a half million dollars against our arena why we're using it
00:19:34.400operating costs and not calling it operating costs it was presented to the
00:19:40.940public as a project a capital borrowing bylaw just would like to remind council
00:19:48.680those discussions were held in closed session I'm not speaking about specifics
00:19:52.580miss no you're asking about decisions that were decided that were discussed
00:19:56.720yeah the decisions were made the decisions were made in public I'm
00:20:00.200talking about the public but you're asking about deliberations correct the
00:20:04.820deliberations are closed the documentation document is a public
00:20:09.380document correct in that is why I'm asking about in that no that is what I'm
00:20:14.060asking about section 23 of the FOIP Act says that deliberations remain closed I'm
00:20:20.000not asking about the deliberations I'm asking why we are using 2.5 million
00:20:24.980dollars for operating costs when the bylaw that is documented for the public
00:20:29.960to see indicates that it is a capital um borrowing bylaw and the why is part of the closed session
00:20:37.160amber what happened there what was going on in that conversation why were you getting stonewalled
00:20:43.540like that was it a procedural thing or or were you uncovering corruption and they did not want
00:20:50.200that to happen um i i would it definitely the latter um and how it how it came about
00:20:56.720is that in uh january of this year so the beginning of this year uh i was away on vacation
00:21:03.420the first week end of december first week of january and it um while i was on vacation i was
00:21:11.600notified that our uh town manager had well i didn't know the i didn't know the the um you can
00:21:23.360say allegedly you can say allegedly before anything you say okay and then you're protecting
00:21:27.920yourself thank you uh his alleged um resignation so so that's where when they refer to the why
00:21:39.220that was um discussed in the closed session that's what they were alluding to but in this
00:21:46.980particular instance and and this is where i've had to do my homework and a prime example of
00:21:53.020you know what you'd asked me just a moment ago is that um under the we right at that point we
00:22:00.500were discussing um the facts because again i was not privy to these conversations as i was in
00:22:07.000on vacation uh but the so the the cao left uh at the beginning of january a special meeting was
00:22:15.240called by my mayor to discuss it with the rest of council and then uh subsequent meetings uh the
00:22:22.100The following, the special meeting was on a Monday and our regular council meeting was on the Wednesday.
00:22:28.860And so that's when the borrowing of the two and a half million dollars originated from.
00:22:36.700And I discovered that our council had approved basically a mortgage of two and a half million dollars that was used.
00:22:49.720um it was it was our arena was used ultimately as collateral basically so um what was the mortgage
00:23:00.220for well there's a whole bunch of things that are several things that come into play in this
00:23:09.820the two and a half million dollars was bridge financing because the town's finances were uh in
00:23:17.260in turmoil at that point and if you can the cao left and our finances were in turmoil i'll just
00:23:30.160leave it at that so in order to pay our bills basically we had to get two and a half uh borrow
00:23:38.660two and a half million dollars to pay those bills now and and this is where the ignorance of an
00:23:45.640elected official would come into play, because there are certain criteria and certain procedures
00:23:54.260that we must follow in the Municipal Government Act when we borrow either for a capital project,
00:24:02.480which is tangible items, trucks, sidewalks, that sort of thing, or operational purposes,
00:24:08.560obviously, with, you know, day-to-day operations, personnel, etc., for the municipality.
00:24:15.640so in order to borrow for either one of those two circumstances there are certain criteria
00:24:25.080and in this case the documentation that was put out to the public was that there was a project
00:24:32.840that we needed two and a half million dollars for and we borrowed against the arena however
00:24:43.160the project there was no information about what this project was so
00:24:52.200that right there raised red flags because i mean how can we indicate to our residents that you know
00:25:01.160there's a project when somebody asks me what projects are we borrowing the two and a half
00:25:04.600million dollars for i don't know in this case it was actually borrowed for operational purposes
00:25:11.960and therefore the procedure to borrow for operational purposes is different than for
00:25:19.940capital borrowing does that make did i make that did i make sense at all sure but what i want to
00:25:26.180know is what was the opposition in there i mean you were asking questions on behalf of your
00:25:34.240constituents obviously as all the other counselors should have been as well unless they were involved
00:25:39.680in some kind of cover-up scheme or maybe kickback scheme i don't know but it seems very shady
00:25:45.200well the the with the departure of the cao were they trying to cover up the fact that this guy
00:25:53.240was a criminal allegedly that he got 200 some thousand dollars as a severance package and
00:26:00.360they made an announcement to our community that he resigned
00:26:04.040and i have i am we're all fully aware of what his um of what the uh contract what his contract
00:26:14.020says and if there was as far as i'm concerned there was the way that i read it there was no
00:26:19.960provision um for a severance package if the individual resigns and so wait a minute so
00:26:27.160so he got two hundred thousand dollars after resigning severance severance generally happens
00:26:32.860when you get fired before your contract term is over exactly and so um wait a minute hold on hold
00:26:40.380on is is this guy was he in bed with some of the counselors maybe sharing some money from the
00:26:46.080proceeds of whatever the hell they were doing misappropriating funds and i know that if you
00:26:51.140say something uh against the grain you may have to pay for it but you've been doing that anyway
00:26:57.440right yeah and that's that's why what you saw is what i get um i i i have my my
00:27:08.240thoughts i don't want to make any allegations against my fellow counselors but i mean
00:27:16.240one has to ask themselves the exact question that you just asked why would there be pushback
00:27:22.000back when you know because remember i was not privy to the conversations that happened about
00:27:29.220the you know with the the departure of the of the cao right and so as a matter of fact it i when i
00:27:36.040was i was in mexico at the time when i you know initially found out about the the the special
00:27:41.900meeting the the mayor i know that lisa had indicated that in ontario or at least in pickering
00:27:47.020they have a strong mayor system which is the mayor has you know um additional powers you know to the
00:27:55.280to the council but in ours we have a weak mayor system so the mayor has is just the spokesperson
00:28:02.040basically chair of the meetings and whatnot so um but one of the extra powers under the municipal
00:28:09.820government act for the mayor is the ability to call a special meeting and in this case while i
00:28:15.620was on vacation i believe january 6th the mayor had had um emailed all of us and i was actually
00:28:22.880it was my travel day that i received the email which was the sunday and the 6th of january if i
00:28:29.560believe i had my date right was the date of the special meeting so you the mayor had a meeting
00:28:35.440with everybody but you all the counselors but you because you weren't there like lorraine berry
00:28:39.820maybe she that's all of them all of them were privy to this and so oh look there you are that's
00:28:45.840a nice picture oh god i'm a baby there councillor willis kozak uh councillor jay melante is it
00:28:55.580melante yeah and then you've got councillor norman sandal well i can tell you from looking at these
00:29:01.580photos it doesn't look like you've got a woke ideology problem on council anyway but well
00:29:07.380Well, no, no, no. I would say that, like I said, for the most part, we are aligned in our in our political views, I would say, you know, and even if we're not, I would say that we have a we have a really good I mean, at the end of the day, everybody wants to have the same results, right?
00:29:26.280there yeah but it's just a matter of getting there um that may differ so you know up until
00:29:33.700up until this this last term i've never had any issue with any of the counselors and and remember
00:29:40.300i've sat on with four for four years with these most of these individuals yeah right um and our
00:29:46.480our mayor actually stepped down uh shortly after the cao had left in january so you've known these
00:29:56.380people you've been sitting on council with them for one or two terms and are they good people
00:30:01.700these counselors it shouldn't be that tough a question
00:30:09.060um i'll be i'll tell you i i i thought they were you know i i guess my i had an assumption that
00:30:20.700everybody thought like me you know and and that we were we were right there and and for
00:30:27.940i mean because what i i want to make it very clear everything that i know i have relayed to
00:30:35.680my fellow counsels from the right from the beginning of this term so it's not like i have
00:30:41.860um failed to share in the information that i have discovered or at the very least the reasons for
00:30:49.260the questions that i'm asking i guess you'd have to ask them why they behave the way they do it
00:30:56.740sounds like a movie to me a movie starring ethan oh you have no idea my friend ethan hawk and
00:31:03.180denzel washington where he goes uh goes on to this squad and they're all dirty there it's like
00:31:09.260honestly i i've i've actually but the running joke is is when i speak with people you know a
00:31:16.580welcome to hotel california you know because i've had many residents you know uh step up to the
00:31:22.300plate and and help me bring this you know to the surface um and be pick whoever you want to play
00:31:28.740your role in the you know in the mini series have you ever tried to have one-on-one conversations
00:31:36.900with lorraine berry or any of the other counselors about any of this stuff or or are they like
00:31:44.020avoiding you at all costs um yeah no i i it it wouldn't work um you know there there's something
00:31:52.900that i should probably note like i said at the very beginning of the conversation about the
00:31:58.340power that the administrator has um and and this this particular administrator that is
00:32:07.060is thankfully no longer with us um he would regularly have meetings with the rest of councils
00:32:15.540and he called them cao briefing sessions um excluding me and and and i know this because
00:32:23.220there's a long history i i mean i could go really i if if i if you really wanted me to go back to my
00:32:31.640it's the beginning of my time here it it would it would be a series of interviews
00:32:37.360my friend um because i'm the 2.0 version of what our cao did to our mayor and back in 2013 as my
00:32:47.8002013 2017 i don't know what that means what is what does that mean like the cao destroyed the
00:32:53.680mayor back in the day and now you're next uh yeah and and um i i honestly i i am i'm ashamed to say
00:33:05.780at this point in time that i participated i was what i you would consider me the same as what
00:33:12.640you've watched um but because the the cao at the time had i mean it was gosh my first or second
00:33:23.540meeting and remember there were five new counselors in 2013 about like october of 2013 uh five new
00:33:31.300brand new council the mayor was an incumbent but he was a council prior and i was a huge supporter
00:33:39.280of him and one incumbent counselor so and the cao uh was hired within 10 months i would say
00:33:47.520of you know within 2012 mid to late 2012. anyway and so i think it was i i'm it it's either was
00:33:56.080either my first or second meeting at all uh my cao had submitted his resignation literally
00:34:05.040quivering lips um submitted his resignation to all of council and uh because and alleged that
00:34:12.560the mayor at the time was bullying and harassing him and he just couldn't possibly you know carry
00:34:18.000on under these um those conditions and so of course you know we're all excited that we've
00:34:26.640made it this far and we're elected and we've got all of these grand ideas
00:34:30.800And here the individual that we're supposed to be relying on to show us the way is going to leave.
00:34:38.120And so, of course, all of us, I can't swear on here, but you can imagine, went, holy cow.
00:34:44.220And, you know, I, again, I, and I have apologized.
00:34:53.160I actually stalked this, this poor gentleman a couple of years ago in, and I stopped him downtown.
00:35:00.140i apologize to him um anyway so for four years you can actually you can actually google it i
00:35:07.880mean we were in the national post that's how yeah that's how much power and and i didn't know
00:35:16.500back then that he wasn't supposed to be doing he meaning the the the cao that he wasn't supposed
00:35:24.960to be doing what he was doing insofar as calling special meetings um drafting motions uh he
00:35:33.420basically what he did was he guided um the entire the rest of council six of us on on
00:35:41.260how to proceed and he would he groomed us i that's a good word i would say he grew
00:35:49.640yeah it was terrible um and and i think and he wanted that mayor gone back in the day and
00:35:58.100and he told you guys you've got to gang up on him and oh wow well well what he's not in so many
00:36:05.300words um but he he would say oh developers like harmonious governance and so in order to you know
00:36:16.460um uh develop our community and and you know uh bring in jobs and tax money from businesses and
00:36:26.620you know we have to we have basically the six of us had to uh steer the ship in the right direction
00:36:35.880because that's not how democracy works man and so what happened between then and when you i guess
00:36:44.480I can use the expression woke up and realized there's something wrong here,
00:36:48.980man. Like what the hell? And then you started speaking up the other way.
00:37:00.860I can talk about the sexual assault then because I, okay.
00:37:05.580So, uh, October of 2021 was the, uh, election,
00:37:10.740you know, the, the election for my third term.
00:37:13.540And in November of 2021, we were the council prior to a regular meeting of council, we were asked to come in early so that we could have our photos taken for the new term.
00:37:28.540And when I went into the council chambers, it was the tail end of COVID.
00:37:34.540it and so and the i i'll say that the individual the the i i've known him he he was one of the
00:37:41.080individuals that was elected with me back in 2013 i will note that he was very very good friends
00:37:47.260with our cao by the way like to the extent that they had gone on vacation etc and so he felt kind
00:37:53.640of bulletproof like he could do anything and get away with it oh i i would suspect so and um you
00:38:00.000know i have a pretty thick skin uh i i would you know if somebody is being untoward doesn't matter
00:38:08.560what the gender is i have no problem telling them my opinion all right so you know this individual
00:38:16.880he he was one of those he was one of those gentlemen that he not a gentleman i wrong term
00:38:25.960but very inappropriate comments you know but i mean frankly i'd go tell him to
00:38:36.000piss up a rope yeah and uh right and and i'd be able to deal with it and and you know i i suppose
00:38:46.300shame on me for not managing it at that point but like i said it wasn't anything that i couldn't
00:38:52.960manage on my own and I will note that his behavior was known in my circles like like in the in not
00:39:00.740only the municipal world but in others throughout the community so anyways how many people in
00:39:06.100Gibbons by the way about 3200 okay so it's not that big a community no so everybody knows
00:39:12.820everybody right oh yes oh yes and and just so uh we're only about 20 minutes away from Edmonton so
00:39:18.600we're very involved with yeah no with the with the councils in our region um and so anyway uh
00:39:27.080nonetheless i can manage his mouth sometimes you know what his what the things that came out of
00:39:34.280his mouth and anyway so when i walked into the the chambers on this particular evening i mean
00:39:39.720i'm in dress clothes i walked in there's there's a flurry of activity within the chambers you know
00:39:45.960between employees and council and photographers and whatnot but it it was the tail end of the
00:39:50.920covid of covid and so uh the mask mandates had been dropped and but when i walked in
00:39:59.800some of the individuals were wearing masks and some weren't so i asked this individual this
00:40:05.880counselor just to you know i wanted to what i wanted to ask him if is if he knew if we were
00:40:10.600wearing the masks for a photograph because i would have probably lost my bananas at that time but you
00:40:15.000know anyway that's a whole different story um so so i just called him around the corner um into a
00:40:22.600side like our council side office i mean the doors were open i could have reached around and
00:40:27.880touched the you know the person that was standing on the other side of the door i asked him my
00:40:34.520question and then uh he proceeded to after he finished answering me he proceeded to grab my0.85
00:40:42.280bra strap about gay high he um uh jiggled my breasts up and down he looked at me and said0.98
00:40:52.100oh don't you bend over and shake those babies in when you put your bra on and he laughed and0.98
00:41:00.440walked out the door and you know i i was i was so stunned that wouldn't happen in any other
00:41:12.240and the other circumstances me i mean i i'm i'm certain that you kind of get the idea of what kind
00:41:18.220of you know individual i am but i was so stunned that that had happened um that i didn't say
00:41:26.380anything at that moment i walked out i imagine you would be in almost like a state of shock
00:41:32.040right like what honestly honestly i was and um and violated like violated
00:41:37.520yeah but it didn't register with me at that but like i shock was the was the is the the best way
00:41:47.220to describe it so after i you know after that happened i walked out into the back into the
00:41:54.260chambers and we sat down we had our photographs taken and everything and then we carried on with
00:41:59.120the regular meeting that we had scheduled for council and it wasn't until i was driving home
00:42:04.840that evening that i really thought that just happened you know like it i really had to sort
00:42:14.180of think about it in in my head so i came home and i told my husband and he was need to say he
00:42:19.840was not pleased then i probably wanted to go over the guy's place with a baseball bat i'm sure a
00:42:25.080little a little bit uh yeah and uh then i and i told my mom and i told my mom and as a matter of
00:42:31.080fact she said you didn't kick him in the and i said mom i know i can't believe i didn't either
00:42:36.300but the next day um and remember i said that this individual had a reputation within the circle so
00:42:43.800i had phoned a fellow counselor in a neighboring municipality rebecca blanco and i can't use her
00:42:50.160name because she's actually made a public statement about it um about her um circumstance
00:42:55.560and i told her what happened and she said well i better tell you what happened last month at a
00:43:04.340regional meeting in the town is mournville which is about 20 minutes away from us and uh we're
00:43:10.880we're within sturgeon county and then there are um one two three four five municipalities um within
00:43:17.740the county. And she proceeded to tell me that at this, I wasn't at this event, but at an event
00:43:27.920just prior, like I said, the month prior, he had seen him or he had seen her while she was parking
00:43:36.240her vehicle. And he walked over to her and sort of cornered her within her, you know, driver's
00:43:43.300adorn her and her car and gave her a hug and then ran his hand down her back and grabbed her um her
00:43:52.180her butt off and so at that point you know i said to her okay that i if he's bold enough to do that
00:44:02.020to you and i then my gosh right so um i i contacted the mayor and uh that actually the the following0.81
00:44:10.580day. And so this is only within 36 hours of when it, when this happened. And I told him what
00:44:17.260happened. And he asked me to come in, you know, early the following week to speak with him and
00:44:24.720the CAO. And at that point, I had no problem doing that because I really thought that the,
00:44:34.200that the town manager at the time well frankly i'll let me back up i didn't know he shouldn't
00:44:42.280have been involved at that time but because i'd been you know working with him for so long okay
00:44:52.520yeah of course it is and regardless of whether or not he and this counselor were were personal
00:44:59.320friend you know most of the people all of the people that i know if if there was you know would
00:45:05.380would you know if their friend had behaved like that then you know you'd you'd think that they
00:45:13.380would call them out right anyway so you hold them responsible in some way even if it's a private
00:45:19.660stern talking to i mean i've had that kind of situation happen before i've seen a friend of0.89
00:45:24.680mine who did something like that to a woman get the crap beaten out of him by his buddies for that
00:45:30.280kind of behavior because he was defiant in it right yeah so i mean we know how to deal with0.65
00:45:36.020things like that in in male world and there's people that don't quite uh don't quite understand
00:45:41.400that but if we find that stuff out usually there is some sort of payment for that within
00:45:48.160your friendship realm yeah in this case i guess not no well no no that's not what happened so when
00:45:56.540i i uh had a uh scheduled meeting with the early the following week so this would have been now i
00:46:02.940believe the like the first of december um of 2021 and i met with the mayor and i and i know that
00:46:09.820this is a long-winded explanation your question was what you know hit me off right and uh and
00:46:16.980this is how it all started because when I went to go in and have this meeting uh and I you know
00:46:22.100proceeded to tell the mayor and the CAO what had happened the mayor looked at me and said oh well
00:46:26.980this is the second complaint maybe we should do something about it and me not being a rookie
00:46:32.540knowing full well that the mayor does not have arbitrary decision-making powers I said what1.00
00:46:38.920are you talking about second complaints because there were it was a complaint from another woman
00:46:43.900right historically that i should know about it as a council member right and and you know he
00:46:51.820proceeded to tell me that oh the the individual made a complaint back in 2020 january 2020 and
00:46:57.820and she didn't want it to be uh made public so basically the the cao and i handled it and i mean
00:47:05.860And at that point, yeah, I was I was not impressed at all.
00:47:12.400And so that's when I started calling out both the mayor and the CAO to my fellow councillors, because neither one of those individuals have have any authority to withhold that type of information from council.
00:47:31.980and um so i had um um i was told that you know knowing that that he couldn't be fired i mean
00:47:46.360because at this point or at that point there was um you know i mean uh counselors still can't be
00:47:52.780fired well now they can because of the changes with the within the municipal government act but
00:47:57.920anyway right um i really just i was told that there would be a you know a statement put out
00:48:05.720um and that you know whatever council had decided if there were going to be reprimands or whatnot
00:48:11.980um that it would just be made known to the community right and then the community could
00:48:17.720decide whether or not this individual should stay right yeah so um on in moving on into january of
00:48:26.2402022 i'm we had two regular meetings at council where he actually admitted his actions towards me
00:48:34.720to in front of all the council he admitted it and and that's everything that i'm stating
00:48:40.420is factual information so you know i can provide documentation so he came out and he admitted what
00:48:46.680he did to you yeah did he do you admit exactly what he did to you or did he try to polish it up
00:48:53.580a bit oh no in my letter of complaint i made it i wrote it i wrote very clearly what he did just
00:49:00.900like i told you what happened that was in because there was no way that um i was going to make an
00:49:08.520allegation like this uh and and leave it up for interpretation i'm not filing a hurt feelings
00:49:15.140report i am filing a complaint and this is exactly what happened and if you know he chose to refute
00:49:22.840it then he could have but he didn't he actually said i was helping you you know you were crooked
00:49:27.120and and i mean that was yeah um and it was at that point i was helping you that's what he tried to
00:49:36.980say yes yeah and keep in mind this is in front of all of my counsel and nobody said anything
00:49:43.560except me i mean i was my blood pressure went up a little bit at that point yeah nothing nothing
00:49:50.660was said in my defense um and then when council had uh decided that they were going to sanction
00:49:58.340him again like i was told there would be a statement put out to the community and then the
00:50:06.300court of public opinion would be taken or would would take uh would you know yep and then when
00:50:14.920his letter of reprimand because those that documents is public right and it's supposed
00:50:20.640it was to be posted on the website was actually issued and it said um if i'm not mistaken something
00:50:29.660to the effect of your actions and words towards counselor harris and it indicates in there that
00:50:34.660he admitted it and i thought actions and words not a chance it was an actions and words you know
00:50:42.780actions technically but they didn't go into detail about how he grabbed you and fondled you
00:50:47.700and yanked on your bra straps yeah and and so um i had requested uh you know after
00:50:56.060nearing the end of february of 22 that my letter of complaint be put alongside that letter of
00:51:04.540reprimand so people would be um have a very clear understanding of what happened and what he
00:51:12.700admitted it admitted to um and so um you know i guess from that point on i i started to battle
00:51:24.640my counsel and and make them understand that the mayor and the cao uh were way way out of line
00:51:37.700um in how they dealt with a complaint from 2020 it's a cover-up it's a cover-up first of all
00:51:45.460which they were not authorized to ever do that's right and so um in in you know i mean i had to
00:51:52.780sit beside this guy from that point until he stepped down on may 19th of 22 right and um it
00:52:02.680was just business as usual like there was you know i i actually had a phone call from a former
00:52:08.720counselor and and she asked me if uh you know we wanted i wanted to come to lunch with you know
00:52:15.560our old counselor and did i mind if he came along and i thought what planet on am i on right so so
00:52:26.660Oh, and in March of, or pardon me, May of 2022 is when Councillor Rebecca Blanco submitted a very, very lengthy complaint of her experience.
00:52:37.560and um it was again it was emailed to all of my council all of her council and you would think
00:52:47.300that at this point there would be a flurry of activity you know of email activity between my
00:52:52.380council about you know what information we'd just received and it was radio silence nothing and so
00:52:59.500I had contacted the mayor mid you know the day after I had known at this point that he was out
00:53:08.040of town but returning this particular evening and I because I wanted to know like what the heck how
00:53:13.820come did you not get the email and you're not as appalled as I am you know kind of thing and so
00:53:20.200when I contacted him the the following evening I said did you get Councillor Blanco's email and he
00:53:28.600said no no I said you should hang up the phone and call me back and ask you read her email so
00:53:35.180he did that and he called when he called me back he said well oh I guess well this is that's why
00:53:40.940Farrell and Darren want to meet with me tomorrow morning at 9 a.m. and I said remember there's
00:53:48.320there's not supposed to be these little sidebar meetings right and I said not a chance are you
00:53:54.720meeting with those two by yourself if they want to say anything then you could either bring other
00:54:00.560councillors uh with you as witnesses or they can speak in front of the entire council but there's
00:54:07.200all these private meetings that have been um taking place that's the end of it and so um he
00:54:14.980had agreed and and in oh pardon me i also said that because our council meeting was not a regular
00:54:22.540council meeting was not um due for another week and a half week or so i said i really think that
00:54:30.440we should hold i you know i strongly uh uh request i i am requesting that the mayor um call
00:54:38.320a special meeting so that we could get this information about the you know the neighboring
00:54:44.580councillors experience out the public as soon as possible to prevent any damage control right so
00:54:51.200that we could we could eliminate them having the opportunity to do any damage control so he agreed
00:54:58.080we got off the phone he had sent out an email to all of council at well first the first email was
00:55:04.680to the town manager indicating that he would not be attending the meeting that was requested
00:55:10.840the next morning between he and this uh counselor and that he would be calling um a special meeting
00:55:17.760forward friday and this was the friday prior to the long weekend in may and uh next thing you know
00:55:23.220uh we got an email um from the uh cao the following morning that the counselor had resigned
00:55:31.160they gave him the opportunity right you know you resign or this is what's gonna happen
00:55:40.580let me ask you this when all this is going on you're in a community of 3 500 people
00:55:46.560give or take i mean people talk all the time right about everything especially
00:55:53.940you know counselors i'm sure you've got a spotlight on you um how was it for you at that point
00:56:02.440were there a lot of people people weren't talking about it nobody knew there was nothing the only
00:56:11.840there was no there was no like i said there was zero put out to the community yeah come on i mean
00:56:20.140like you you have a poop in the morning and the guy down the street knows what color it is five
00:56:24.180minutes later in a town like that honest to goodness i mean um you would think you would
00:56:30.140think especially i mean as a matter of fact i didn't so we have those were three you know myself
00:56:37.180uh the counselor from the neighboring community the uh instance or the the assault that occurred
00:56:45.500in january of 2020 and subsequently i actually found out that there was a complaint from a summer
00:56:50.980student in 2017 um that had also been covered up same guy right these guys always working patterns
00:56:57.560right it's always a pattern there's always something it's always if there's one there's
00:57:02.620going to be more every single time wow um so so going back to your question honestly i i didn't
00:57:12.800i was so i think that the initial the you know the the the incident incident with him was shocking
00:57:20.960it was more shocking no not more shocking equally as unbelievable to me that i sat with six other
00:57:33.380individuals who all knew what had happened with me and now they knew what happened with another
00:57:41.480counselor i told them about the two instance you know the two other complaints that um you know
00:57:47.400had had occurred prior to this um nothing not one to this day not one of them is that when they
00:57:56.440is that when they turned on you is that when they started treating you like you know i i i think that
00:58:04.520um see when i went in to make my initial complaint it was supposed to be addressed
00:58:39.300But my counsel on that, you know, at that particular meeting, they were presented with my complaint and what the issue was.
00:58:50.120And that was really, that was the only time that any of them had sort of behaved like you would think somebody would behave.
00:58:59.120I did, however, get a text message from the counselor, this counselor, the next morning that asked me if I had a couple of minutes to chat, which I still have.
01:02:13.920I actually have the mayor's handwritten notes.
01:02:16.600and he he's the one who wrote this down um did you know did that to her and then walked over
01:02:23.440to his table and he was in fact having lunch with the cao and other counselors and um you know
01:02:30.880again all of the the council knew about like so that yeah this absolutely opened the door
01:02:40.580to you discovering all manner of corruption that was going on with these counselors and this cao
01:02:46.580and you didn't even know it at the time right it's like no it's it's funny because you know
01:02:52.540like i said i i all in 2022 i was really just trying to shift some sense into the rest of my
01:02:58.700council right um i had told my people in my community but i i i really um i just wanted
01:03:08.660it to be dealt with properly and then move on right yeah properly yeah move on we've got
01:03:14.660business to attend to here right yeah yeah exactly and so at the end of 2022 when none of that was
01:03:22.020occurring um and and i'm like i'm giving you super readers digest here okay this is readers digest
01:03:29.500because i was going to say we got to move on here no no but i i'll give you so this is this is how
01:03:35.620it sort of this is a segue into the financial stuff is that i was happened just by chance
01:03:40.860I was talking at the beginning of January of 23, I was talking with an employee of the town who had stated that an individual who had been working for the town for, oh gosh, three, four years by that time, there was an announcement that she was becoming by the CAO at their Christmas party that she was going to become a permanent employee.
01:04:06.180and i wouldn't need a permanent employee anyway did a little research found out that we had been
01:04:12.140paying her for the last however long i believe by this time it would probably been about three
01:04:17.680and a half years but we were paying her through her company as a consultant and i did math like
01:04:24.700i went through all of the accounts payable and for 2022 we had been we had been paying her
01:04:30.140between twelve and sixteen thousand dollars a month through her company to be a consultant
01:04:36.360yeah so that that's that and then and this is like wait hold on this is the caos girlfriend
01:04:44.300well she was maybe she was brought no she was brought in she was a uh what we were told is
01:04:51.320that she was a retired cao from another municipality in alberta our um uh lady who
01:04:57.920was uh i don't know if she was a an accountant by trade but she was our cfo who had been with
01:05:04.600working with the town for 30 years she was retiring and and the lady that i'm referring to
01:05:11.600the one who's a consultant was brought in just for you know in the end term right four years ago
01:05:18.680three and a half years ago and it's funny because that's both within like days that that happened
01:05:25.800And then within a couple of days, I actually got a phone call from another resident who had told me that he had heard that we were paying for her apartment.
01:05:37.720And, well, so that's what sparked it off.
01:05:42.020That's how we went, you know, from the first chapter into the digging up the finances.
01:05:50.240because at that point that's when i started asking about you know questions real questions about you
01:05:57.800know it's interesting i i always ask people i'm having on the show for the very first time what
01:06:03.580was your moment right now you've gone through a very long uh explanation of what no that's all
01:06:09.260right of what happened to you but i mean many people even after that would still kind of go
01:06:14.880ah you know what i don't want to get my nose dirty i i don't really want to dig into this too much i
01:06:19.560mean, let's just let sleeping dogs lie. Let's just move along here and, you know, try and do the best
01:06:24.660we can. Instead, you started investigating and you started uncovering more and more and more
01:06:32.920corruption. So I have to ask you, why is that just who you are? Is that what your personality
01:06:40.000is? Have you always been that way or did something just click in your head and you went, you know
01:06:44.540what i'm i'm not i'm not having it anymore uh probably probably a combination of both i mean
01:06:51.820i have three adult children i had to be an investigator to get you know those three to
01:06:58.340adulthood right uh i actually went to to college for and i i wanted to be a police officer at one
01:07:04.900point so i uh graduated from um uh law enforcement in the mid-90s uh and i was i was a private
01:07:13.840investigator and you know i did that's up my alley right but i think those were just tools
01:07:19.480that i had automatically when i ran for i mean i can't stand politicians i can't stand the
01:07:26.000oh i was gonna say uh the bs that is you know that is happening with our country and and uh
01:07:34.620you know i've been a political donkey for 20 plus years right i want you guys watching this to mark
01:07:41.100down because everybody's always asking you know questions like this of me or or other people that
01:07:46.880they follow on social media what is it that makes us immune what is it that made us stay away from
01:07:53.400this or that or not listen to this or that and i think there's at least one trait that we all have
01:07:59.500in common and that would be a very deep sense of curiosity wouldn't you agree yeah and you know
01:08:06.180I take my position. I mean, sure, there's only 3,200 people in Gibbons. But, you know, after watching all of the corruption at the higher levels of government, you know, globally, right? I thought, I can't believe that this is happening here. So it pissed me off. That's what happened, right?
01:08:31.680So every time I'd ask a question and the answer, I'd get an answer that would prompt me to have five more questions.
01:08:39.280Well, you know, when I have nothing to do, 3 a.m. Googling or, you know, various different, you know, search engines, you can find out a lot.
01:08:49.600Oh, you've gotten into the brave, have you?
01:18:38.340You know, I don't want to speak ill and lump all of the individuals, you know, who have held or are holding that position, the town or city manager position.
01:18:57.480I don't know if they're, but it's a very small circle.
01:19:01.140I mean, that executive position is, I mean, you have to know legislation, you have to know how to manage, how to communicate with different levels of government and different stakeholders, as well as managing the staff, right?
01:19:25.740So it's not an easy, I wouldn't say that it's an easy job at all.
01:19:35.760So the pool of people that, you know, are drawn from in order to be put, you know, to be selected for these positions, I would say are very small.
01:19:47.320And so, you know, if in our case, if a CAO leaves and there are concerns.
01:20:03.540You're very guarded in what you're saying.
01:20:08.840I'll tell you, if a CAO, you know, has as is into nefarious activities or unethical behavior, you know, whether or not it be they purchased land for personal use, that's public land and they are well aware.
01:20:32.360I mean, my CAO went Fox Creek, you know, back within 20 years.
01:20:38.360And I, again, I have actually communicated with, I've sought out counselors from these
01:20:44.520municipalities, but he came from Fox Creek and then he went to Barhead and then he came
01:30:27.480You know, when I say, okay, now you have 12 hours, you don't go out in the first hour
01:30:32.220and just drop everything you have on them.
01:30:34.000So I'm not happy with them. I'm not happy with Iran either.1.00
01:30:37.180But I'm really unhappy if Israel is going out this morning because the one rocket that didn't land, that was shot, perhaps by mistake, that didn't land.
01:34:31.080And I would say absolutely, he's right about that.
01:34:33.540But let's read the editorial, and you'll see what I'm talking about, why I'm so peaked.0.53
01:34:42.220A group in Montreal called QPIRG McGill, QPIRG McGill, is hosting what they call a Decolonial Anti-Canada Day barbecue and fundraiser on July 1st.