00:00:38.120I'd like to just take you back to something that you said earlier in response to a question from Commission Council.
00:00:44.000I believe you said that Premier Kenney expressed to you that he had neither the resources nor the tools to deal with the blockades in Alberta.
00:00:51.300And I just wanted to clarify what you meant by tools.
00:00:55.180Often in this inquiry, that term has been used to refer to legislative tools or authorities.
00:00:59.460such as you know being able to use the criminal code and so I was hoping you could clarify what
00:01:03.680you meant by using that word. Yeah that's a fair question what I was referring to were
00:01:08.240conversations that we had at the beginning of February where he had indicated that he needed
00:01:14.060physical tools and assets to help clear the blockade. I believe he was expressing a concern
00:01:21.160that he was having a really hard time getting access to those assets through either the RCMP
00:01:27.400or through provincial police services.
00:01:30.100So he was putting to me the suggestion that we might be able to assist him through military assets.
00:01:39.620And I'd said to him that although statutorily requests for assistance were still within my office's authorities,
00:01:49.140that they were in practice being addressed by my colleague Minister Blair in the new ministry
00:01:53.980that was created following the 21 election through the Ministry of Emergency Preparedness.
00:01:59.640And I took that conversation and I committed to then Premier Kenney that I would relay it to both
00:02:05.140Ministers Anand and Blair. Okay, thank you. So you meant physical tools as opposed to
00:02:10.500legislative authority? At that point, yes, that's correct. Okay, thank you. If I could,
00:02:16.300And could I please take you to document SSM.NSC.CAN403069.
00:02:39.600This is a text, the portion that I will be reading will be a text between Zita Estravas,
00:02:46.520Mr. Blair's chief of staff, with Mike Jones, your chief of staff.
00:02:50.540And you can see the date as we're scrolling is February the 6th at 8.49 p.m.
00:02:56.600And in this text, Ms. Estravas says, your DM Mike said the following, heads up, I've
00:03:03.440spoken to my Alberta counterpart and flagged that we are likely to decline the RFA, so
00:03:08.600request for assistance, as you were just mentioning, for CAF equipment and optics and precedent
00:03:14.280and provincial authorities not fully explored reasons. She was not surprised, but said Minister
00:03:19.900McIver would want to call Minister Blair, and Mr. Jones says thanks. And so I'd just like to break
00:03:26.800down this text. The reference to your DM would have been a reference to Deputy Minister Stewart,
00:03:34.380is that correct? That's how I read it. Can I just clarify, though, that you said,
00:03:38.280Zita Estraves. I note at the top of that text chain that the initials are MJ and SK and previously
00:03:45.820we've read email or sorry text exchanges where SK was Sam Khalil. So I just thought I would
00:03:52.780offer that clarification. I'm not sure if that makes any sense to you. It makes sense and I
00:03:59.660actually I should have clarified at the beginning myself. I believe it's a group chat in which all
00:04:03.820three of them were present. And so the indication with the document is that this is taken from
00:04:09.540Mrs. Stravis's phone. And then it indicates at the top of her screen, the other two individuals
00:04:14.100that she's texting with. Okay. Does that help clarify? Yes. Okay. Thank you. And so would you
00:04:21.980understand the reference here to Deputy Minister Stewart? What do you understand here in terms of
00:04:30.100what that means of the reference to Deputy Minister Stewart,
00:04:32.500having said that your ministry was likely to decline the request for assistance because of optics.
00:10:02.080I don't know at that point exactly what Deputy Minister Stewart has said or not said to the province of Alberta.
00:10:09.940And again, owing to machinery, he would have been reporting the RFA to Minister Blair
00:10:17.140in conjunction with any dialogue that was going on to Minister Anand.
00:10:21.520Okay, thank you. Had you discussed the suitability of CAF equipment with Mr. Anand before the evening of February the 6th?
00:10:29.220I know we had an exchange. I know I flagged for her that Premier Kenney had engaged me to get some assistance and that I anticipated that there would be an RFA, a request for assistance that was submitted to us.
00:10:46.420and i anticipated that it would uh that it would engage uh her and her authorities so i just wanted
00:10:53.220to give her a heads up but as to precisely what equipment was used what was suitable to remove
00:11:00.100or clear the blockade in coots i would have deferred appropriately to uh to her and the
00:11:07.780calf's assessment about that in conjunction with minister blair's responsibilities and roles around
00:11:12.900processing requests for assistance that related to CAF. Okay thank you very much.
00:11:22.260Okay your time is up so if you can try and wrap up please. Okay certainly.
00:11:32.020I just wanted to confirm very quickly on one quick point. You're familiar with the report
00:11:40.180of the houses of parliament um the emergencies act consultations
00:11:43.860cabled february 16th is that right yes so i'd like to pull up ssm dot can
00:11:51.140dot five zeros one two four and take you to page three please
00:12:04.420And if we could scroll down to the bottom of that page, yep, right there.
00:12:14.100So we can see that there's a discussion of engagement, and under the first sub-bullet
00:12:19.720point, the Minister of Public Safety engaged with the Premier of Alberta on February 2
00:12:23.420and 9, and then with the Premier and the Acting Minister of Justice and Solicitor General
00:12:31.720You also engaged with the Acting Minister of Justice and Solicitor General on February 1st, 5th, and 9th.
00:12:37.420Can I confirm with you that in none of those conversations did you discuss the potential invocation of the Federal Emergencies Act with either Premier Kenney or Acting Minister Savage?
00:12:51.280Certainly with Premier Kenney, I can confirm that.
00:12:55.220I would also note that it does confirm what I had mentioned earlier, which is that he and I had had a conversation on February the 2nd, as I recalled it, which was prior to the February 6th exchange that you had pulled up earlier.
00:13:08.980So I do think that that does sit more neatly with the chronology and the sequencing of events, as we described.
00:13:17.840I would say that my engagements with the then Minister of Justice and Solicitor General, Sonia Savage,
00:13:26.920very likely did not include any express references to the Emergencies Act.
00:13:35.780But I believe there would have been general references to whether or not existing tools and authorities beyond physical assets were going to be sufficient to restore public safety, and it would have been in the very general nature.
00:13:52.980So Minister Savage's evidence, as summarized in our institutional report, is that you did not discuss the Petro Emergencies Act. Would that be something that you would agree with, or would you just do that?
00:14:55.440My name is Cheyenne Arnold-Cunningham, and I'm counsel for the Union of BC Indian Chiefs.
00:15:01.720We've heard a lot today already on the topic of consultation.
00:15:06.120So we'd like to ask, did you consult or cooperate with local First Nations or Indigenous groups during the Freedom Convoy situation and or the decision to invoke the Emergencies Act?
00:15:19.400I would say that I've had broad and ongoing conversations with representatives and leadership within First Nations and Indigenous communities.
00:15:29.060First Nations are trying to prove government did not adhere to UNDRIP, which is now in effect in certain jurisdictions in the country.
00:15:37.080That's why all this, but it's not relevant to the Emergencies Act invocation itself.
00:15:42.260That sit at the table, including Ministers Miller and Haidu, are in routine and constant engagement with First Nations and Indigenous peoples and the communities.
00:15:54.380So there's a broad range of ongoing dialogue that is undertaken by representatives of the cabinet.
00:16:05.360From a public safety viewpoint, do you think that it's important during a public order emergency event for Public Safety Canada and police services to engage with First Nations in the local territory?
00:16:19.720uh so in your um mandate letter dated december 2021 you were directed um to implement the united
00:16:29.720nations declaration of the rights of indigenous peoples which is also known as undrip um are you
00:16:35.320familiar with bill c15 which came into force as federal legislation in june 2021 to adopt and
00:16:42.600implement UNDRIP? Yes, and I would just add to that that we are leveraging UNDRIP to advance
00:16:51.080important reforms within the RCMP around First Nations and Indigenous policing. And so, for
00:16:57.900example, over the last number of weeks and months in my capacity as Minister of Public Safety,
00:17:04.180I have been deeply engaged with First Nations and Indigenous and Inuit communities for the
00:17:12.060purposes of ensuring that there are more Indigenous-led public safety
00:17:18.060initiatives including the creation of Indigenous-led police services which are
00:17:22.920independently created. We have also are in the process of co-developing
00:17:29.580legislation that expressly recognizes that Indigenous policing is an essential
00:17:35.280service so that we can move away from the current First Nations and Indigenous
00:17:39.540policing program-based approach to one that is more structured and enduring and uses UNDRIP
00:17:48.040and the principles of reconciliation as the anchor for a relationship between the federal government
00:17:52.760and First Nations and Indigenous policing. And then the last thing I would point out is that
00:17:57.800we are currently debating Bill C-20, which is before Parliament, which is an act that would
00:18:05.400create a new public complaints and review commission, what we are referring to as the
00:18:10.240PCRC. And we are, again, very engaged with First Nations and Indigenous communities to ensure that
00:18:17.100there is representation on that commission, so that there can be appropriate civilian review
00:18:22.380and accountability in the way that we police and uphold the law in Indigenous communities.
00:18:28.540great thank you so much um i'll actually i'll jump off um the last um few points that you made there
00:18:36.620so um speaking of lc20 and the work that that you're doing there would you agree then that
00:18:43.100ensuring indigenous participation and presence on oversight bodies of the rcmp as either decision
00:18:50.940makers or complaints investigators would assist in that acceleration of rcmp reform moving forward
00:18:58.540I agree. It's essential. And that's one of the things that we talk about in our engagements.
00:19:04.020And it's one of the reasons why we are co-developing the legislation around the recognition that Indigenous policing is an essential service.
00:19:13.960And in order to give life and breath to that principle, it means being at the table together, starting from the premise that there needs to be a recognition of the inherent right of Indigenous peoples to chart out their own courses, to implement their own priorities as it relates to public safety, including and leading up to Indigenous police services, which are self-governed.
00:19:39.040So, both in that co-development exercise as well as in Bill C20, we are very much engaged
00:19:46.720with First Nations and Indigenous peoples so that they are reflected in our institutions,
00:19:52.080including when it comes to public safety. What about the CSIS Act? Are there any plans
00:20:00.000to ensure modernization of this legislation in alignment with UNDREP?
00:20:03.360Well, the reforms that I'm carrying out in my capacity as Minister of Public Safety
00:20:10.500has, as part of the overarching mandate given to me by the Prime Minister,
00:20:16.820the need to adhere to the principles of reconciliation. And part of that is addressing
00:20:21.820long, enduring, systemic, structural challenges in the relationship between
00:20:31.360the federal government and Indigenous peoples that go back to, you know, the origins of
00:20:38.500colonialism. And that would apply not only to RCMP and CBSA, but right across all of my
00:20:45.720line agencies, including CSIS. So we are really trying to get at some of those inherent biases,
00:20:54.240which have led to the over-representation of Indigenous peoples interacting with the justice
00:20:59.700system and using UNDRIP as well to make sure that we reduce and ultimately eliminate those barriers.
00:21:09.460Okay, thank you. So in considering all the work that you're doing to implement UNDRIP
00:21:17.060and your mandate and Bill C-15 and another piece of your mandate which is to work in partnership
00:21:24.580with indigenous peoples to advance their rights um considering UNDRIP's implementation do you think
00:21:31.700that there should be then distinct considerations on CSIS and the RCMP and their ability to monitor
00:21:39.700and respond with enforcement action against non-violent and unarmed first nations people
00:21:46.020who engage in activism pertaining to their lawful and distinct rights even in situations that might
00:21:52.660be perceived or profiled as being a public order event i do and and that's one of the reasons why
00:22:00.180it's really important as we implement these reforms that we modernize training to be culturally
00:22:05.700sensitive of indigenous language of indigenous culture and tradition and indigenous laws and
00:22:12.180that is something that we are actively doing right now and the hope is that by doing so that that that
00:22:20.580we will create a relationship that is based on respect on the nation-to-nation principles and
00:22:27.220values that in that are informed uh by undrip and again this is not just um with regards to
00:22:35.780the line agencies in my portfolio this is work that has to be done right across our government
00:22:41.940um okay thank you um and then in in thinking about the practice of consultation and cooperation
00:22:50.100with Indigenous peoples in the context of responding to a situation
00:22:55.780like the Freedom Convoy situation or public order emergency events.
00:23:00.660I want you guys to start liking and sharing this and getting it out there.
00:23:04.240We understand that Freedom Convoy will be doing their cross
00:23:07.620coming up in the next 10 minutes or so,
00:23:10.640and we need as many people as possible online to see what's going on.
00:23:16.960Brendan Miller will be allowed back in the room,
00:23:18.700although i'm not sure if he's going to be the one doing the cross-examination and some of the
00:23:23.320uh documents that were heavily redacted some of those documents have been pulled so we'll be able
00:23:28.180to see some my department and my officials as far as the witness they wanted to get on the stand
00:23:32.580contact building the relationship that remains to be seen on the ground i am also traveling
00:23:36.300with increasing frequency to indigenous communities across the country to meet um in person with
00:23:43.620Indigenous leaders with residents. I recently had the chance to visit with the James Smith
00:23:48.840Cree Nation following the mass casualty there at the beginning of, or at the end of summer,
00:23:55.340I beg your pardon. And so that direct personal experience is meant to foster a relationship so
00:24:02.700that we can move forward with the kinds of reforms that are inspired and governed by UNDRIP and by
00:24:11.360the principles of reconciliation, which have been documented in the Truth and Reconciliation Calls
00:24:16.780to Action, the MMIWG Calls to Justice. It's a full court press from the federal government to
00:24:24.620really move forward with those reforms. But you have to meet with people and you have to respect
00:24:31.400that inherent right of self-government and that inherent right of self-determination.
00:24:39.600And that includes when it comes to public safety initiatives.
00:24:42.940And I think by doing so, we can break that intergenerational trauma, that endless cycle that has seen a disproportionate number of Indigenous peoples caught up in the criminal justice system, for example.
00:24:56.200And so that is work that I am deeply committed to.
00:25:00.740Thank you so much for your time today. Those are all of our questions. Thank you to the Commissioner as well.
00:25:05.560Okay, thank you. Next, if I could call on the Canadian Constitution Foundation, please.
00:25:15.420Okay, this could be good. This is Sujit Choudhury, I believe.
00:25:22.720Commissioner, Minister, my name is Sujit Choudhury. I'm counsel for the CCF.
00:25:27.900Minister, I'd like to begin by picking up on a comment you made, I believe, during your examination in chief, where you said there's a dialogue between civilian leadership and law enforcement professionals.
00:25:44.060And so I want to pick up on that idea in the context of your relationship with Commissioner Lokey.
00:25:49.480and so and in the context of the convoy I'm wondering if you could just answer you know
00:25:56.880a few questions I mean were you getting daily briefings um were you were you in frequent
00:26:02.860communication uh with her if you could just give us and I have limited time so if you could just
00:26:07.880give us a bit of a window into what your interactions were like with her the short
00:26:11.400answer is yes and yes and to give you a little bit of detail we would have been meeting daily
00:26:17.140on some days multiple times through different briefings the purpose of those interactions
00:26:23.820was to have a dialogue so that i could understand from her exactly what law enforcement was doing
00:26:30.400to restore public safety and then ultimately in the lead up to the invocation to seek some advice
00:26:36.660so that i could then impart some advice to the government around the invocation so these were
00:26:41.240daily um and frequent um conversations that i was having with the commissioner so so when the
00:26:47.720february 7th letter came to you and the prime minister from mayor watson and chair deans
00:26:54.600uh requesting uh a deployment um of rcmp officers i i suppose you would have delivered that letter
00:27:02.520to the commissioner then we certainly were in constant contact um just to be clear wouldn't
00:27:07.960necessarily been my personal responsibility to transfer it but there was a very clear line of
00:27:15.400communication about the pressures that the Ottawa Police Service was under to muster the resources
00:27:21.620that were necessary to restore public safety they would also would have been clear to Commissioner
00:27:26.580Luckey some of the some of the information and the feedback that I was getting from the City of
00:27:31.280Ottawa around numbers and and tasking and the like and so those conversations and that dialogue
00:27:39.060would have been occurring yes and and she was updating you then on her steps to respond to
00:27:44.640that request for support she was okay so um Mr. Registrar if you could put up on the screen
00:27:50.400the following document, and I apologize. It's PBNSC CAN 402872 underscore REL 0.0001. And
00:28:03.000Minister, while this is coming up, this is a document that's dated on or about February 10th,
00:28:07.700and it's a memorandum of agreement between the RCMP and essentially the OPS and the OPSB
00:28:15.080about uh about forced deployments have you seen this uh document before i can't recall if i've
00:28:22.160seen this document uh specifically uh i am obviously generally aware of the ongoing
00:28:27.520arrangements and agreements that were reached so if you could go down to page three please
00:28:31.700it's not unimportant it's just not relevant to this commission you could go to clause
00:28:37.0402.1 there you go so uh as you'll see here that um article 2.1 minister if you could just have a
00:28:45.060quick look at this. It says that the RCMP agreed to deploy to Ottawa up to 250 members of the RCMP
00:28:51.920in a number of different capacities. And then it suggests later down in that article that
00:29:00.260provision for over 250 members can be made for subject to mutual agreement. Yes. And does this
00:29:07.460seem familiar to you? Yes. Okay. And so I just wanted to get a bit of clarification from you,
00:29:15.500if you're able to. So when the RCMP was providing support here to the OPS, to the best of your
00:29:21.380knowledge, would that be not include RCMP deployments already, for example, in the
00:29:27.480parliamentary precinct or out at Rideau Cottage to protect the prime minister?
00:29:31.980Well, I think that was certainly one of the issues that was raised by Mayor Watson and his staff at the time, which was that some of the numbers that were being reported were inclusive of pre-existing RCMP deployment, for example, in the precinct or for protection.
00:29:53.280and and so my responsibility at that point in my capacity as minister of public safety
00:30:00.880was to relay that to the commissioner to get some clarity about exactly how many we had deployed
00:30:07.520and for what purpose and do you recall what what information came back to you i do i have a general
00:30:14.160recollection that one of the concerns that the commissioner had expressed at the time
00:30:17.980was that while rcmp members were being dispatched or deployed to the city of ottawa that that it
00:30:27.200wasn't clear to her what those taskings would be and whether or not or how exactly it would fit
00:30:33.880into the ops's operational plan at the time and that was the feedback that i was getting but
00:30:39.640what was clear despite that was that we were sending rcmp and that we were open to sending
00:30:45.700more RCMP to support the City of Ottawa to restore public safety?
00:30:50.160So if we could just call up another document, it's OPB 401014.
00:31:06.180And so, Minister Mendez, I'm not sure if you've seen this.
00:31:09.140It's a chart of deployments by different police or law enforcement entities in Ottawa, up to and including the 12th of February.
00:31:23.920Have you seen this chart before or something similar to it?
00:31:52.580Okay. Well, then, look, let's soldier on.
00:31:56.400So if you look under regular members, federal RCMP, yes, Mr. Registrar, thank you, it sort of says at the end of this line that 167 officers were deployed.
00:32:11.460And so that, I mean, were you aware of that figure on that day?
00:32:16.660Well, setting aside the exact time frame, I am familiar with the initial figure of about 150 in that range.
00:32:26.000And again, you've heard previously that there were some ongoing back and forth on exactly how many and when, but that was one figure that had came to me early on in that range.
00:32:36.240In that range. And so, I mean, you'd agree that on this face, it does appear that these numbers are lower than the 250 that are in the agreement I showed you.
00:32:44.340well i agree that on the face of this document that that is lower than 250 but again without
00:32:50.340knowing more about the authorship or the origins of this document it is very difficult for me to
00:32:55.820testify as to its accuracy and you're not able to say and i think i know the answer sir but i have
00:33:00.620to do it for the record um you're not able to say of that 167 how many were at reno cottage and on
00:33:05.560the promontory precinct i am not um minister i'd like to just turn to another theme if i could
00:33:12.360And so this morning you made a number of statements.
00:33:14.940You said it was virtually impossible to enforce the law in Wellington.
00:33:20.540Wellington falls within the jurisdiction of the OPS.
00:33:24.020The RCA could not go and assert itself in Wellington to bring things under control.
00:33:30.840And so, Minister, were you able to, I know you're very busy,
00:33:34.000but were you able to review or be briefed on Commissioner Lookie's cross-examination last week?
00:33:39.520um i i don't know that i was briefed i may i may have read some some general reports about it in
00:33:46.160the media so so my co-counsel went through some issues um in respect of those themes with
00:33:51.780commissioner looking i just want to take you to what she said um if you wouldn't mind and so this
00:33:56.240is transcript 23 mr registrar and we're on to page we're going to begin at page 241
00:34:03.140and minister minister no no you're a member of the law society of ontario so this will be a bit
00:34:11.840there'll be a bit of legal questioning here okay
00:34:14.660great so if you can start at line five super okay so so my colleague uh mishan moganathan was asking
00:34:25.960questions of commissioner loki so i just want to take you through some of the back and forth if i
00:34:30.020could. So my colleague says, my co-counsel, okay, so you'll agree that the RCMP officers
00:34:34.980have the power to enforce the criminal code, for instance, and the commissioner says yes.
00:34:40.340Then my co-counsel says, right, and they always have the power to enforce the code.
00:34:44.940It's just part of what they're allowed to do. And the commissioner says, yes.
00:34:48.580And then if you could scroll down, Mr. Registrar, my co-counsel says, right,
00:34:53.920they don't need to be sort of the local police in a jurisdiction. This is a power they always
00:34:59.620have and the commissioner says yes and then my colleague says uh right and there's nothing in
00:35:07.560the code for example that says an rcmp officer can't enforce the criminal code in one particular
00:35:14.320place they can enforce that anywhere in canada and then this and the commissioner looky is not
00:35:19.700sure uh that's the and i'll let you read her response there sir and when you're done let us
00:35:26.320and i'll go to the next page and commissioner i know i'm a little bit over time but i think
00:35:33.040this is an important point it goes to the jurisdiction in wellington um mr minister
00:35:38.960can we go to the next page so if we could go to page uh 242 i just do think it is important that
00:35:46.640that the commissioner's evidence not be put that she wasn't sure but that she articulated that
00:35:51.600That power she was describing was, if you were to find committing a criminal code offence, just a little bit, witnesses, not skip past that.
00:36:00.800Of course, I didn't mean to mislead, so I take my friend's point.
00:36:05.620And so if we can, let's go down to my colleague's next question.
00:36:10.940So, okay, so just to use sort of a silly example.
00:36:13.880If we have an RCMP officer that's standing on Wellington Street in Ottawa and they see someone committing an offence under the criminal code, they don't need to call up the OPS to arrest the person.
00:36:26.100They could go and arrest the person themselves.
00:36:45.240And do you have any reason to think that Commissioner Luckey is incorrect here?
00:36:52.460I think she's right in saying that if any peace officer sees that the law is being broken under the criminal code,
00:37:01.960that they may use their common law authority to effect an arrest.
00:37:07.080But because of the important conventions around respecting jurisdiction and recognizing that, certainly in the province of Ontario, that there are municipal police services that are set up under the Police Services Act, that they would not act unilaterally.
00:37:26.360And certainly, and I hope I'm not going too far in trying to ascertain your line of questioning here, but it would be somewhat chaotic for the RCMP to simply insert themselves unilaterally into Wellington Street and start effecting arrests without coordinating very closely with the OPS and the OPP.
00:37:46.080So that is why so much of the energy was around understanding what the operational plan is, notwithstanding that, in theory, yes, this line of questioning is correct.
00:37:57.380An RCMP officer could affect an arrest if they saw the law being broken under the criminal code.
00:38:03.020Okay. Well, Commissioner, I'm well over time, and thank you, Minister Mendocino.
00:38:06.500Thank you. Next is the Democracy Fund, JCCF, please.
00:38:16.080well that whole thing was a waste of time let's see if these guys have got something
00:38:24.340good afternoon mr commissioner good afternoon minister mendochino my name is antoine day i'm
00:38:30.540counsel to citizens for freedom representing the protesters in windsor ontario
00:38:34.220just like to take you through two two aspects today first some of the considerations that were
00:38:40.480made by you mr minister in in considering some of the legal alternatives other than invoking
00:38:45.000the Emergencies Act to deal with the protest and also some specific questions about your
00:38:49.020communications with the Windsor governance structure. Just for the record, do you remember
00:38:56.980the mandate letter JCF.0000189? I don't think we need to pull that up, but that's the mandate
00:39:05.540letter you received on December 16th of 2021 from Prime Minister Trudeau. Do you recall that letter?
00:39:11.800Yes. And I think on the fourth page, fifth bullet from the bottom, it mandates you to continue working with the Minister of Health and the Minister of Transport to protect the health and safety of Canadians through safe, responsible, and compassionate management of the border with the United States and other ports of entry into Canada. Do you recall that portion of your mandate? Yes. And so I take it that the Minister of Health and Minister of Transport, you work closely together, and that would be Minister Duclos and Minister Al-Gabrak. Is that correct? Yes.
00:39:41.280And is it also your understanding that Minister Duclos is an economist by formal educational training?
00:39:48.200Yes, with an academic background, yes.
00:39:50.200And then you're obviously a lawyer by background and former Crown prosecutor.
00:39:54.880So with respect to the Freedom Convoy and the protest, would it be fair to say that, you know, a trucker protest,
00:40:02.540protesting about health mandates with concerns about public safety
00:40:07.120and border concerns, that this group between the three of you
00:40:11.920as part of your mandate, you were the key ministers involved
00:40:15.520in dealing with some of the concerns raised by the convoy.
00:40:27.380Not only my colleague, Ministers Al, Gabra, and Haidu, but equally, as you heard previously, Minister Blair under emergency preparedness, Minister Leblanc under intergovernmental affairs, and many others.
00:40:43.720Minister, Minister. Sorry, just got limited time here. Yes and no answers where we can and where we need to elaborate just as concisely as possible, please.
00:40:50.980If we could pull up a document ID, pb.can.00001868.
00:40:59.900And this is from the emails that we received last night.
00:41:04.960Do you recall hearing Jason Kenney's position that the trucker vax policy is obviously just dumb political theater?
00:41:14.260Was that ever brought to your attention?
00:41:16.220Well, I'll wait to see what the document says to refresh my memory.
00:41:20.980and sorry who who is uh this text exchange with or between
00:41:38.100uh if we could scroll down so it should be the third attachment in
00:41:44.520the sixth email that was received from mr brousseau last night
00:41:47.940there it is the trucker vax policy is obviously just dumb political theater calling them nazis
00:41:55.720hasn't exactly helped do you do you recall being informed of miss uh of premier kenny's position
00:42:01.300on this i i recall seeing that that was uh minister leblanc's uh looks like a a cut and
00:42:08.800paste of what premier kenny had relayed to him okay and and i take you disagree with premier
00:42:13.520kennedy's position yes uh but but is it true though that the liberal platform in september of
00:42:20.2002021 dealt with a mandatory vaccination policy across the entire federal service and on federally
00:42:26.660regulated transportation yes we put that to the electorate in the 21 election and i believe you
00:42:33.480had 33 roughly of the popular vote there is that correct well to the best of my recollection yes
00:42:39.740your your number's right on that okay and so would you say then that that in part this this mandate
00:42:44.480or this must do activity uh is rooted at least in part in a political or ideological purpose
00:42:50.520well it was part of i think two important things first the best available medicine evidence and
00:42:57.600science that we got and it was our belief then and it continues to be now that vaccines were
00:43:02.680the best way out of the pandemic and secondly um in the lead up to the 21 election there was a very
00:43:08.920i think robust debate among all canadians i'm trying to trying to figure out what specific
00:43:15.880knowledge you had in dealing with the minister of health here so would it be fair to say that
00:43:21.400under the department of public safety and emergency preparedness act you are given
00:43:26.360the responsibility of exercising leadership at a national level relating to public safety
00:43:31.740and that the department of health has has a similar aspect in terms of promotion and
00:43:36.600preservation of health. So what I'm trying to get at here is the separation of powers a little bit,
00:43:40.960because we did have an unprecedented emergency situation with the pandemic in Canada, where
00:43:45.320some of these vaccines were pushed through very quickly. And so, you know, perhaps by way of
00:43:49.400analogy, you know, if there's a new peanut that's coming on the market that may have been genetically
00:43:53.660modified, it would clearly be within the purview of the Ministry of Health to assess the safety of
00:43:59.540that. But was there ever a consideration where, let's say you're now implementing a mandate that
00:44:04.780results in 90 of canadians ingesting this product does that concern your mandate under under public
00:44:11.300safety at all well first there was a lot of thoughtful uh deliberation and research done
00:44:18.340prior to the decision of uh launching and implementing a national vaccine strategy
00:44:24.040okay where is that while there where is that evidence marco objective between the public
00:44:30.400safety ministry and health in protecting the health and safety of canadians public safety has
00:44:36.820a different mandate which includes um the law and there are agencies under my portfolio that
00:44:44.160are responsible for upholding the law i understood so so minister so so there is a little bit of
00:44:48.920overlap and and this is some of this overlap could have been discussed through your mandate
00:44:53.700working with the minister of health and transport is that is that fair to say well there were again
00:44:57.540and very robust communications within government
00:45:01.760throughout the pandemic and throughout the convoy.
00:45:03.900And that includes with Minister Leblanc,
00:45:09.340If we could pull up, Mr. Registrar, JCF-0000183.
00:45:21.100So this here is the Regulatory Decision Summary
00:45:23.340published by Health Canada on September 16th of 2021.
00:45:26.900I believe this was the second, that the purpose of this document was to transition the approval of some of these vaccines from being authorized under an interim order to being authorized under, I believe it is Schedule Division 8 of the Foods and Drugs Act.
00:45:40.740So if we could go to page six at the first paragraph there.
00:57:58.460and threats of labour strikes in the last couple of weeks.
00:58:02.640Would you agree with me that during the existence of these orders,
00:58:08.620a strike would likely be contrary to these orders?
00:58:13.760Well, I do think that we need to be very careful and circumscribed in defining what the powers are.
00:58:24.600So the prohibition of public assembly, as it is itemized under the regs, does direct that people can't be part of a public assembly that may be reasonably expected to lead to a breach of the peace by the serious disruption of the movement to persons or goods or the serious interference with trade.
00:58:43.800Let me pause there and say that that is directly responsive in part to CBSA concerns around the lack of authority to clear roads adjacent to critical infrastructure in the form of the border.
00:58:58.240And you can draw a straight line to the rationale for that power.
00:59:01.820That having been said, in addition to that, the regs still have to comply with the Emergencies Act, which is the parenting statute.
00:59:09.180And what that says is that, yes, all of the individual rights that are there around freedom of assembly, including the right to protest, are preserved so long as you do not then cross the boundary into activity which could pose a threat of serious violence.
00:59:33.040And that is the delineating limitation to how it is that we both protect charter rights while at the same time giving circumscribed, targeted powers to restore public safety.
00:59:47.540So you have to read this provision, in my opinion, in conjunction with the parenting statute.
00:59:53.320Okay. But I mean, this definition is what law enforcement is going to use when they go out and decide whether someone is in violation of the order. And this is the document that perhaps a very diligent citizen would look to to find out what is permitted. Is that fair?
01:00:11.040It is, but we count on law enforcement to interpret the law correctly, and as part of the rolling out of these regulations and these circumscribed powers, it would have been part of the plan to implement that there is a respect for the right to lawful assembly.
01:00:31.540In any event, by the time these regs had come into force, certainly it was clear to those who were still there that law enforcement had directed, government officials had directed that this was no longer lawful.
01:00:46.520None of these lawyers are making an impact here. None of them.
01:00:49.760So I'm not so concerned about whether there was a question that this applied to, for example, Wellington Street.
01:00:57.040I'm concerned about whether there was a question about where else this might have applied.
01:01:01.120and the potential that it might have applied to a range of other places.
01:01:05.960Would you agree with me that there's nothing in these orders that geographically restricts their scope?
01:01:10.740There's nothing that says they're confined to Ontario or they're confined to border crossings?
01:01:16.140I think by inference, you could say that certainly under sub 2.1 and the subparagraph A,
01:01:25.660that there is some geographic circumscription there
01:01:32.100and that there are a limited number of places
01:01:34.140where you can seriously disrupt the movement of persons or goods
01:01:38.660or the serious interference with trade.
01:08:39.200But that minority report, that is not constitutional.
01:08:50.480So my understanding of the Emergency Act is, even though it does give the government and, by extension, some police more extraordinary powers,
01:09:02.740it still has to be done under the auspices of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
01:09:07.740so basically what you're doing is you're saying
01:29:29.840We will have a presentation on the public input.
01:29:34.220We have three witnesses, three ministers.
01:29:37.940You may have already received the allocation of time.
01:29:41.540The allocation of time is arguably brutal.
01:29:45.240uh i won't have much flexibility given the amount of time so i would i would strongly urge that
01:29:53.920council talk amongst themselves if you want to have a longer period of cross-examination with
01:30:00.280some of the witnesses that are limited to five minutes try and work out a deal a bit like this
01:30:06.840one to have a longer period because i know five minutes is hard to make a point in five minutes
01:30:13.920i understand that but i'm i mean we're bound by the time limits we have so they're they're a long
01:30:23.080list of five minute people and some may be willing to coordinate or allow so i i mention it so that
01:30:30.380you have time to do it maybe at the break obviously totally up to you i've i've had to allocate for
01:30:37.400essentially everyone who asked but the allocation is is i recognize small and i'm simply signaling
01:30:46.460that that given tomorrow's schedule it's going to be hard to be flexible so thanks for giving me
01:30:53.160that opportunity but i i think it's important and i'd like you to think about it again it's up to
01:30:58.940obviously but my interest is that people who want to get at an important point
01:31:06.980with any one of the three witnesses at the time okay with that you have fresh
01:31:14.700time we'll start from zero okay thank you Commissioner good afternoon it's
01:31:20.480still afternoon Minister my name is Jennifer King I am legal counsel to the
01:31:24.560city of windsor good afternoon hi so yesterday minister blair testified about the responsibility
01:31:30.320of all three orders of government to communicate and cooperate in responding to an event like the
01:31:35.680protests earlier this year do you agree with him that that's important yes yes minister you and
01:31:40.800your staff had excellent communication with the city of windsor right yes mayor dilkins texted
01:31:45.700you immediately after first learning of the potential of the slow roll um the potential
01:31:51.140of blocking the bridge when he learned that from the chief of police on february the 4th right yes
01:31:55.740and he kept in regular contact with you throughout he did and are you aware that once the blockade
01:32:01.380commenced mayor dilkin's chief of staff was in contact with his counterparts at the federal
01:32:05.960government including your chief of staff mike jones yes and for example on february 8th
01:32:11.620he told mike jones that windsor police had put in a request through policing channels for
01:32:17.140policing resources, right? That's right. And he specifically told your chief of staff that
01:32:22.360the chief of police had asked for public order personnel, right? I believe that's correct, yes.
01:32:28.700So early on, you were aware that Windsor Police Services required resources, specifically public
01:32:33.900order resources. Yes, that's my recollection. And in fact, you assisted in amplifying that
01:32:39.920message to Commissioner Lucky. I did. So Windsor provided you and your ministry with important and
01:32:45.980timely updates throughout before during and after the blockades yes and you use this information
01:32:54.000from windsor in your work at the federal level to respond to the blockades yes did the protest
01:32:59.960this year then reinforce your view of the value of the importance of two-way communication and
01:33:05.420collaboration between the federal government and border municipalities with respect to the
01:33:09.860protection of border infrastructure it really did um and especially because of the many unique
01:33:14.840aspects of this particular public order event minister blair yesterday told us that the police
01:33:20.820operation in windsor was a success do you agree i think on the whole yes okay windsor police
01:33:27.440required an influx of policing resources that we just talked about and hard assets to respond to
01:33:31.940the event yes um last week we heard evidence from deputy minister keenan and mr asavsky the former
01:33:40.040president of the cbsa regarding federal authority over the bridge were you able to listen to that
01:33:46.380testimony i'm afraid i was not sorry okay well we are i reviewed a cbsa document with mr ossofsky
01:33:54.300and he confirmed that cbsa officers are not designated to enforce criminal arrest provisions
01:34:00.080and cannot directly engage in enforcement operations at prohibited public assemblies
01:34:05.200even if they're on the bridge. Do you agree with him?
01:34:08.720Well, there were definitely gaps, and there are very specific mandated powers that are afforded to CBSA officers
01:34:17.960for the purposes of administering other statutes, for example, customs and the like.
01:34:23.440But one of the main concerns, there were two main concerns, in addition to the one that you've mentioned
01:34:29.020that he raised with me and with other cabinet colleagues, that was preventing foreign nationals
01:34:34.660where there were grounds to believe that they may support the blockade or the occupation.
01:34:39.520And secondly, the lack of authority to clear the roads leading to the bridge,
01:34:46.060which I think is very much in relationship to the point that you made.
01:34:49.860Well, they didn't have that authority even on the bridge, did they?
01:34:53.340There are limitations as to how far they can go.
01:34:57.800And certainly, if there are criminal charges or if there's criminal conduct that is occurring on the bridge itself,
01:35:04.660They would have peace officer authorities to facilitate restoring control.
01:35:10.160That's one of the reasons why CBSA officers were ultimately granted the right to hold firearms.
01:35:15.180But ultimately, they would pass those investigations on to local police of jurisdiction.
01:35:20.360Right. So, Mr. Ossofsky told us that for any protest activity, even if it was occurring on the Ambassador Bridge or in the plaza, the CBSA would rely on the police of jurisdiction.
01:35:30.380There were limitations to the authorities, yes.
01:35:32.420Right, and so it would be Windsor Police that would respond?
01:35:35.580It depends on which side of the bridge.
01:35:37.920So if it was on the Canadian side, then yes,
01:35:41.260then I would assume he would have reported those to the Windsor Police.
01:35:45.180Right, and Mr. Ossofsky confirmed that even after the Emergencies Act was invoked,
01:35:49.660the new Emergencies Act didn't change these authorities,
01:35:52.540and in fact CBSA officers were directed not to directly engage in enforcement operations
01:35:57.600at prohibited public assemblies, whether on or off the bridge.
01:38:02.840I think if you are going to talk about expanding the jurisdiction of the CBA to, let's say, roads, which are otherwise provincial highways,
01:38:12.380that that is a conversation that has to occur with other levels of government, municipal authorities.
01:38:18.260And then if you're going to make any recalibration there, you're going to have to make sure that CBSA have the resources to enforce as well, or at a minimum, engage in some kind of an understanding or an agreement with different levels of government and enforcement to make sure that...
01:38:35.380Does it seem to you guys that there's some kind of a secret joke going on between some of these lawyers in Mendocino?
01:38:42.560Plans to protect the community that's around that critical infrastructure?
01:39:03.900She wasn't sure how many officers are there in Windsor.
01:39:08.320Minister Mendicino, do you know how many RCMP officers are in Windsor?
01:39:12.800I know that my best recollection is that we deployed approximately 75, I believe, or 100.
01:39:19.240This makes the whole thing appear like it's a scam, you guys.
01:39:22.780I don't know how many are permanently stationed there at O.
01:39:25.760So are you aware, Minister Mendicino, that shortly after the successful police operation, Windsor representatives, including Mayor Dilkens and others, started asking all three levels of government to sit down and develop a long-term sustainable framework to protect critical infrastructure?
01:39:40.560uh i don't actually have a specific recollection of of that conversation being started but i
01:39:47.720wholeheartedly endorse the idea and i think it's it's a good it's a good initiative okay so i just
01:39:53.140want to take a little bit of time on that mr clerk can you please pull up ssm can four zeros
01:39:58.020six two five one and scroll to page four hopefully i have the right reference um minister this is a
01:40:06.100readout of a call that you had with Mayor Dilkens and MP Massey on February the 18th. I expect this
01:40:12.600was a busy time for you, as we've already heard. But you had a call with Mayor Dilkens and MP Massey.
01:40:21.680Do you recall this call? Yes. And so the readout, if you scroll up a little bit, Mr. Clerk,
01:40:26.720was sent to a number of recipients, including Katie Telford and Brian Clough, and they're the
01:40:31.500Prime Minister's office yes okay and you can see you can't see the color on this
01:40:37.080but the summary or the highlights at the top included that MP Massey highlighted
01:40:41.900the desire for a comprehensive plan with redundancies to prevent this from
01:40:45.480happening again yes here's an example of a
01:40:53.820page five in the middle of the page you'll see some notes of Mayor Dilkin's
01:40:58.820comments and he notes that the current set of jersey barriers and police support is important
01:41:05.500but is incredibly resource intensive and disruptive to the community both small businesses and the
01:41:10.860university of witson and you agree with him i would and in fact i visited the community there
01:41:16.020including some of the small businesses along here online church and the barriers impeded access to
01:41:21.300there to them and that's one of the losses that that the community suffered so i think
01:41:26.100Mayor Dilkens was highlighting one of the issues that if they were going to use Jersey barriers to prevent the blockade from forming or reforming, that they then had to also consider what impact that was going to have on the local community, including some of the smaller businesses that dog along the Huron Church line.
01:41:45.940Right, and you'll see that Brian Massey, if you scroll down a little bit, MP Massey indicates that this plan must include how to respond as a community and how to support small business.
01:41:56.100So that's consistent with what you just said.
01:43:26.920And he's asked you again to sit down and plan.
01:43:30.300What did you do with this letter on receipt?
01:43:33.120Well, I would say informally, certainly, I keep strong lines of communication with Mayor Dukins.
01:43:38.100We've spoken on many numerous occasions since March 1722 by text.
01:43:44.520You know, when I visit the community there, I make a point of trying to check in.
01:43:48.240And I would say, you know, there remains a commitment from the federal level of government to action the letter.
01:43:57.780Okay. And so just taking a few moments to talk about the lessons that we've learned from the protests to better protect border infrastructure and the communities they're in,
01:44:07.240would you agree with me that planning processes to protect border infrastructure must include municipalities like Windsor?
01:44:14.300I think it must include every level of government. I think it must also include and that is obviously inclusive of the city of Windsor and other border communities as well. I also think it should include obviously law enforcement and the CBSA who play an essential role in maintaining the integrity and the security of our borders.
01:44:35.840and i think it should also include a number of the other residents and local businesses who are
01:44:41.260clearly impacted as a result of people and vehicular traffic flow okay now we spoke earlier
01:44:49.160about the importance of two-way communications um what are you doing to ensure collaborative
01:44:54.440collaborative two-way communication between your ministry which i understand is responsible for
01:44:59.040critical infrastructure and municipalities with critical infrastructure in their borders
01:45:03.640Well, one, maintaining direct bilateral contact with my municipal counterparts, including Mayor Dilkins.
01:45:11.340I would say, secondly, making sure that as we discuss the, you know, the lessons to be taken from this, that we get advice from law enforcement.
01:45:21.360So CBSA, as I said earlier, would play a very important role.
01:45:24.780And then, you know, building as well into the discussion, essentially the provinces, including Ontario, so that we are all really focused on how it is that we can insulate ourselves from a similar type of event.
01:45:40.780And I think that this particular public order emergency demonstrated what's at stake, especially around a critical port of entry like Windsor, where you're talking about not only economic impacts, which have a huge, huge knock-on effect, but just the critical supply chains around food, around fuel, around health care supplies.
01:46:07.520that is a vital artery, not only for Canada, but equally for the United States, which, as I
01:46:13.540described earlier, is one of the reasons why Secretary Mayorkas had engaged me in the height
01:46:19.440of the blockades. Thank you for your answers. Okay, next call on the convoy organizers, please.
01:46:30.200Thank you, sir. And just before I start, I apologize for talking over you earlier today.
01:46:34.380hello good afternoon my name is brendan miller and i'm counsel for freedom corp which is the
01:46:51.720entity of uh that represents the protesters that we're here let's see if we're gonna wipe that
01:46:56.520smirk up medecino's face here 22. so sir uh you're a lawyer correct yes and before you were a
01:47:03.480politician, you were a Crown Prosecutor, is that correct? Yes. And you worked for Public
01:47:07.380Prosecution Services Canada, right? Yes. And you worked for Public Prosecution
01:47:11.420Services Canada for a period of 10 years, is that correct? That's right. And you prosecuted
01:47:16.060terrorism cases, right? I prosecuted terrorism cases as well as other types of cases including
01:47:23.140the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act and other federal statutes. So it wasn't just limited to
01:47:28.440cases involving national security there were a broad range of of cases that i prosecuted and
01:47:34.280you agree that in prosecuting the terrorism cases you had to become intimately familiar with national
01:47:39.080security law fair to say i had to become familiar with the principles around national security the
01:47:45.320anti-terrorism act um you know other uh statutes that that that would have implicated uh national
01:47:52.120security. Yes, the CSIS Act would be another act as well. And so, including your knowledge would be
01:47:58.480the CSIS Act? Yes. Right? And that would also, including your knowledge, would be the Canada
01:48:03.820Evidence Act provisions protecting national security as well as criminal investigation
01:48:07.960information. Is that fair? Sorry, could you just repeat that last question? Your intimate knowledge
01:48:13.000and knowledge as a prosecutor in what you were doing, it would also include the provisions in
01:48:19.720the case law with respect to the Canada Evidence Act provisions protecting national security
01:48:25.000as well as criminal investigation information? Yes, it would. And as a lawyer, of course, before
01:48:31.560you testified here today in these proceedings, I take it that you knew you needed to be prepared to
01:48:37.000testify? Yes. In preparing to testify here today, I assume you reviewed many records
01:48:44.120and as many as possible i i spent a fair bit of time yes reviewing
01:48:49.640the documents that uh that were prepared for me in anticipation of this testimony
01:48:54.840right and i'm sure you reviewed the numerous statements uh that you made in public and to
01:49:00.360canadians with respect to the protests in ottawa as well as the invocation of the emergencies act
01:49:05.880i would have done that yes and with respect uh to preparing for this hearing and again as a lawyer
01:49:13.480I take it you probably watched all of the evidence given yesterday by the director of CSIST and Minister Blair. Is that fair?
01:49:20.880Well, in fact, no, I did not watch the evidence yesterday.
01:49:25.440I, in real time, I would have caught some of the headlines and some of the clips, but I was not watching the evidence yesterday.
01:49:34.100During the day, I have a number of, you know, engagements even, you know, on Mondays.
01:49:41.120So, yes, I was not able to watch the evidence in real time yesterday.
01:49:57.520And I asked him, are you aware of a company called Enterprise Canada?
01:50:01.680And his answer was, not specifically, no.
01:50:04.640And then I asked him, and have you identified the individual, the one that is, there was,
01:50:10.320he was all over the news the gentleman that was carrying the nazi flag have you identified
01:50:15.760and mr vignon responded uh said mr commissioner as i said before uh we the specific details of
01:50:23.200our investigation have been shared as you know with the commission earlier i would not be able
01:50:27.600to go into more specific detail uh were you aware that he said that i i was not aware that he said
01:50:36.320that and i don't know what you're referring to i'm sorry well now i take it that you know as a
01:50:42.560former prosecutor with proper prosecution services canada in the realm of national security law
01:50:48.000that the identity of a man carrying a flag in public who's photographed in public is not
01:50:53.360protected by any form of national security law or other evidential protection can you agree with that
01:51:00.000i'm i'm i'm sorry i i really don't understand the nature of the question could you repeat it
01:51:05.280So, I take it that you know, as a former prosecutor with Public Prosecution Services Canada, in the realm of national security law, that the identity of a man carrying a flag in public, who has been photographed in public, is not protected by any form of national security law or other evidential protection. You know that.
01:51:25.920you're suggesting that the identity of an individual is not protected by national security
01:51:34.080laws? This is what you're asking? I'm saying that the identity of an individual whose picture has
01:51:39.660been taken. He's wasting time. In public by someone in the public and posted online, the identity of
01:51:49.740that person who he is is not protected by national security law is it i have no idea of the if you're
01:52:00.700talking about a hypothetical or if you're talking about a real uh example i mean this is a completely
01:52:06.780abstract question mr clerk if you could bring up the one document please
01:52:09.980yep just for record it's poe hrf i think so yeah okay so this is the individual i'm talking about
01:52:21.560it was all over the news and we've been trying to figure out who he is and we think we had
01:52:27.900now again in looking at this picture it was posted online it was in the news
01:52:35.300everywhere and when I asked the director of CSIS about his identity he didn't say he didn't know
01:52:42.480he invoked national security law but I take it you know as a former prosecutor with the public
01:52:49.320prosecution services Canada in the realm of national security law that the identity of this
01:52:54.440man carrying the Nazi flag in public who is photographed in public is not protected by any
01:53:00.300form of national security law or other evidential protection you know that mr commissioner i have
01:53:07.020an objection to state with respect to the nature of this questioning in my submission the placing
01:53:13.180of this photograph again before the witness in light of the evidence given to date is an abuse
01:53:17.740of the process of the public hearing process and that the purpose of my friend putting this document
01:53:23.900up on the screen is not a good faith purpose miller has got something apparently for the purpose
01:53:28.940of asserting claims in order to associate them with the credibility of this and the government
01:53:34.060of canada is doing everything they can to stop it process that important work of this inquiry
01:53:39.180surrounds in my submission there needs to be a good faith basis for the questions put to the
01:53:43.820witnesses and this is a further example of what my friend is seeking to do that is not directed
01:53:49.660to the fact finding process of this inquiry respectfully but to injecting this photograph
01:53:55.900and other documents into the public light so that they may be commented on taking advantage
01:54:01.700of the privileged forum in which my friend is miller already knows who he is he's trying to
01:54:06.480get mendocino evidence to give and there could be no to say he doesn't that they would have
01:54:12.020of course we we filed an affidavit i'd ask to finish my objection which i'm almost complete
01:54:17.540in my submission the commission must respectfully insist that participation be conducted in good
01:54:23.740faith by those who have been given the right of audience in the form of full party standing
01:54:28.540and for whom public funding has been recommended for the purposes of enabling
01:54:32.620their participation to serve the objects of the commission and their clients interests
01:54:37.180i object to this line of question okay sir as you know we filed an affidavit from
01:54:47.500an individual who identified this man and the man is Mr. Brian Fox according to that affidavit
01:54:55.180he met him when he was doing that photo was taken around the same time he talked to him
01:55:00.860he's been identified there's an application before this commission to call Mr. Fox as well as to allow
01:55:10.300our witness mr sean folks to testify and it is clear frankly from the lack of answer and from
01:55:19.820the objection that the witness here needs to answer this question and subject any questions sir those
01:55:25.260are my submissions okay well just going back i think i suspect you may be functioning under a
01:55:34.460misapprehension with respect to the testimony of uh mr vio but that's a different issue which we
01:55:42.220can get back to because i i don't i think uh you you've misunderstood his answer so that's something
01:55:50.060which maybe could be cleared up with respect to the question i'll let you continue this however
01:55:57.100the outstanding motion that you've referred to has not been ruled on and the evidence
01:56:04.340that you're proposing the tender is not in the public records so that is not an appropriate
01:56:12.260if you like an appropriate representation at this stage so but i'll let you ask the question
01:56:21.660i have uh i had because of uh the outstanding motion at the moment right so sir now again i
01:56:30.320take it you know as a former prosecutor with public prosecution services canada in the realm
01:56:35.700of national security law that the identity of that man can i just interrupt you if you could
01:56:42.140just read what the question was to mr vigno again question right are you aware of a company called
01:56:49.300enterprise canada mr vignan not specifically no question and have you identified the individual
01:56:55.700the one that is there he was all over the news the gentleman that was carrying the nazi flag
01:57:00.900have you identified him yet mr commissioner as i said before we the specific details of our
01:57:06.420investigation have been shared you know with the commission earlier i would not be able to go into
01:57:12.660more specific details and then i tried to get him to identify that it was the individual and i was
01:57:18.500was cut off yeah so i just want to have my understanding to try and assist is that cesis
01:57:26.080will neither confirm or deny that they're investigating that because that's all secret
01:57:34.400so what he's answering there is not a refusal to identify not a refusal to answer it's because
01:57:41.580their job is to do investigations they do not answer those questions that's my
01:57:48.900understanding so I just want to clear that up so it isn't that mr. Vigneault
01:57:53.460was trying to know so okay so I think for the record that's important and it
01:57:58.620may assist you now I don't know if Commission Council wants to add or what
01:58:02.940I've misstated it to assist mr. Miller and as someone who's encountered over
01:58:10.74030 years similar refusals to answer questions on the basis of national
01:58:15.760security I sympathize with his plight but it is exactly as you describe mr.
01:58:19.700commissioner the representative CSIS or another national security officer is
01:58:26.120typically saying I refuse to admit or deny I refuse to acknowledge or disclaim
01:58:31.760etc they're not saying one way or another they're just saying that as a
01:58:34.580matter of national security they can't take a position on it okay and so if I
01:58:39.940may ask my question now i take it that you know as a former prosecutor with public prosecution
01:58:45.300services canada in the realm of national security law that the identity of the man that was in the
01:58:51.920photo carrying a flag in public is a photograph in public and is not protected by any form of
01:58:59.580national security law or other evidential protection you're aware of that i i have no idea
01:59:05.740what this photo is who the person depicted in that photo is that's not the question marco
01:59:13.640circumstances that this is the first time i have seen this photo produced you're aware and you know
01:59:21.440that mr brian fox was the individual who was walking around in downtown ottawa carrying
01:59:30.680a Nazi flag on January 29th, 2022, don't you?
02:00:52.000You're trying to make all kinds of statements that are of no assistance to the Commission or to this witness.
02:00:57.620i will just ask uh so are you aware that katie telford the chief of staff for the prime minister
02:01:02.420has a relationship with enterprise group and their staff no i am not aware okay and i just want to
02:01:09.380talk to you then about your statements uh you had said after and during the invocation we are
02:01:15.300listening to law enforcement according to law enforcement we need the emergencies act you said
02:01:20.100that correct yes right but law enforcement didn't advise you they needed the emergency act did they
02:01:25.220Well I think as you've heard me explain today I had every reason to believe that law enforcement
02:01:30.900was supportive and requested the Emergencies Act through the tools that could only be granted
02:01:36.580through that statute. I've identified the briefings that we received from law enforcement where they
02:01:41.940identified the gaps in existing authorities and can draw a straight line between the tools that
02:01:47.780were proposed to us from the RCMP, from the CBSA to the regulations which then prescribed them
02:01:54.420which were then invoked and which were then used to restore public safety and you agree that you
02:01:59.620stated that the emergencies act was instrumental in addressing the blockades at ports of entry
02:02:04.020remember saying that yes but the emergencies act wasn't used to remove any of the protesters in
02:02:09.380the blocks of entry or ports of entry you're aware well i would just clarify as i said earlier that
02:02:15.300in fact it's my understanding that cbsa did use the emergencies act powers to prevent two foreign
02:02:23.380nationals from entering into Canada. And that was exercised under the powers that were granted to
02:02:31.600them. And that was, again, a direct link to a gap that had been expressed to me and to my colleagues
02:02:39.180in cabinet. And by invoking the act, we were addressing a gap and what was necessary in the
02:02:48.060circumstances okay and you also said that we got advice from our law enforcement that we met the
02:02:53.580threshold that advice and the decision to invoke it informed by non-partisan professionals
02:02:59.960can you agree that no law enforcement ever advised you that the threshold to invoke the
02:03:09.480emergencies act was met that never happened did it well i'd say two things in response
02:03:14.300one we did receive advice from law enforcement very specifically with regards to the tools
02:03:20.280that were then invoked as part of the emergencies act in fact as i mentioned earlier today in the
02:03:26.960february 13th email that i that my chief of staff received from commissioner lucky that there was a
02:03:34.240an express link that she drew between those tools which were again we were getting briefed on
02:03:39.040consistently and the language of the use of the emergency he's not lying the second thing that i
02:03:44.960would say but he is the commission has since heard that a number of our non-partisan professional
02:03:50.980independent public servants including those who operate in the security and intelligence sphere
02:03:57.820did advise that the threshold had been met okay and just two last questions arising from that
02:04:04.480commissioner lucky in an email and it's already in evidence told you and told
02:04:10.400well told your deputy minister or your chief of staff actually uh that she believed that
02:04:18.800the emergency act wasn't necessary because they could use the normal laws of canada to deal with
02:04:24.160the matter my friend is stating the content of the letter that he's putting to the witness okay
02:04:28.320Can you agree that Commissioner Lucky and no law enforcement official, a police officer, advised you that the threshold to invoke the emergencies act was met, meaning that there was reasonable and probable grounds or reasonable grounds of a threat to the security of Canada?
02:04:46.200No one from law enforcement specifically said that to you, did they?
02:04:49.660Well, in the broad context of my portfolio, I would disagree with that.
02:04:54.900And certainly, as you heard from CSIS, the threshold was met.
02:04:58.320the broader interpretation of the law. Okay next the Windsor Police Service
02:05:07.440please. Good afternoon, hi there good afternoon Heather Patterson for the
02:05:23.760Windsor Police Service. Our questions have already been canvassed by the City
02:05:27.960windsor so we have nothing further okay thank you next is the government of saskatchewan please
02:05:38.840good afternoon my name is mike morris i'm counsel for the government of saskatchewan
02:05:43.800minister you've had a long day so far i don't think you'll be too much
02:05:47.480longer with me that's what you said yesterday it didn't turn out that way
02:05:52.840Minister, will you agree with me that the RCMP and the Saskatchewan Highway Patrol worked together
02:06:02.880and worked very well in response to demonstrations in Saskatchewan?
02:08:51.020Do you recall whether the opposition leaders were advised that the Emergencies Act was going to be invoked that day?
02:08:56.780I think there was a signal to the opposition that the government was strongly considering the invocation and was going through the sequence of steps that were necessary in the lead up to that decision, including consultation with First Ministers of the provinces and territories.
02:09:14.040okay i want to talk just briefly about the numbers at the ottawa protest because it's my
02:09:22.200understanding they fluctuated greatly you know from the weekend to during the week is is that
02:09:27.760fair that there were a lot of people there on the weekends but not necessarily during the weekdays
02:09:32.740yes i would say that was fair so i mean this is a bit of an assumption but perhaps people had
02:09:39.600other things to do during the week, such as going to work.
02:09:42.600Would that be your understanding as well?
02:09:45.660I think that's a safe assumption, yes.
02:10:04.400We know the Emergencies Act was invoked on a Monday.
02:10:07.820it was February 14th. My question is, could an assessment not have been done throughout the week
02:10:16.020as to whether invocation was necessary, given the numbers would have been limited during the week
02:10:23.040before the anticipated buildup on the weekend? Put another way, could you have given the police
02:10:29.960an opportunity to exercise their operational plan before deciding to invoke the emergencies
02:10:37.480Act? I would say a few things in response. One, the assessment of whether or not to invoke the
02:10:44.940Emergencies Act didn't really take shape until that first incident response group that the
02:10:51.140Prime Minister convened on February the 10th. And by then, we were approaching two weeks into the
02:10:58.780blockade and the convoy across the country. And one of the realities on the ground, what we were
02:11:05.960seeing what we were receiving in the way of information from law enforcement is precisely
02:11:10.440what you described in your question which was progress that was not linear where at times
02:11:16.220perhaps you know there may have been um uh you know some some travel or trade going through
02:11:23.480borders but then at other times blockages at times you know there were maybe only a thousand
02:11:29.660or so individuals here in the parliamentary precinct or even less, but then it would surge
02:11:36.940on the weekends. And so it was that state of volatility that made it very difficult to not
02:11:46.340only restore but maintain public safety. And by then, the government, in my view, in my opinion,
02:11:54.100had already exercised considerable, I think, reflection and restraint in trying to understand why it was that existing law enforcement resources and authorities were not effective at restoring public safety.
02:12:09.520That was the backdrop to the very focused discussion that we had around the potential invocation of the Emergencies Act.
02:12:19.440Thank you. Commissioner, I just have one more question. Am I still under time or over enough that I can ask that one?
02:12:27.760You're way over time, but I'll let you ask the question.
02:12:31.100Thank you, Commissioner. Minister, can you tell us when you found out on the 14th that the Prime Minister had made the decision to invoke the Emergencies Act?
02:12:42.380um well it was after the first minister's meeting and it was uh through a series of
02:12:49.460conversations with staff and officials so it would have been and i can't again i can't say
02:12:54.620exactly what what time but it would have been um in the i believe in the afternoon early afternoon
02:13:01.100to mid-afternoon okay thank you sir okay next is the uh national police federation please
02:13:09.540hello minister my name is nini jones i'm counsel to the national police federation which is
02:13:21.420as i'm sure you well know the union for our cmp officers uh employed under the auspices of your
02:13:27.540ministry good afternoon um i want to actually just pick up i want to go back to policing a little bit
02:13:33.560in a bit more detail and pick up on a theme that uh you've explored a great deal in your in your
02:13:39.160What is with all the giggly smirking like to the surge capacity of police in responding to the convoy in various locations?
02:13:47.240And you know what I mean when I talk about surge capacity, right?
02:13:51.900You agreed with Council to Mr. Slowly that a recommendation around a protocol for requesting additional police resources was something that would be welcome in terms of that provincial, municipal, federal hierarchy or who to ask first question, right?
02:14:08.760Yes. And you were asked some questions about the barriers created particularly by the Police Services Act in Ontario and swearing in RCMP officers as peace officers so they can function effectively inside Ontario in respect of enforcing the law in various jurisdictions. And that I think is a second barrier. You'd agree with me?
02:14:28.840I would agree that was a challenge when it came to deploying. It was seen as creating delay once additional RCMP were deployed to then have them sworn in individually in accordance with the local police jurisdiction to carry out peace officer responsibilities on the ground.
02:14:49.240And so the Emergencies Act, again, was directly responsive to a challenge that had been pointed out to us in briefings.
02:14:56.740and challenge is probably a better word than barrier but yeah i i know this kj it was a
02:15:02.820rhetorical question we see sort of a third challenge in response in respect of the issue
02:15:08.200of surge capacity and that's the question of not authority which is sort of that authority to
02:15:14.600enforce the law but the jurisdictional problems that are created in ottawa and you've talked a
02:15:20.640lot both in your witness statement and your evidence today about this kind of mismatch
02:15:25.160jurisdiction in respect of the NCR, the National Capital Region, and the parliamentary precinct?
02:15:31.640Well, I think what I highlighted earlier was that provincial police services statutes
02:15:38.740do clearly spell out how municipal police services can turn to the provincial commissioner
02:15:48.260to backstop any gaps in resources if they are overwhelmed.
02:15:53.840And so that part is clearly spelled out.
02:15:57.820If I may, you mean the OPP commissioner?
02:16:00.860And so the Ontario Police Services Act is helpful in that regard because it can then be very instructive to the local chief of police to turn to his or her counterpart provincially and say, I need help.
02:16:16.000And if that is insufficient, I think that's where there is currently a lacuna.
02:16:23.000And so we worked around that gap with daily dialogue and through a lot of collaboration and coordination so that RCMP could be deployed.
02:16:35.300I will say, though, it is important to draw a distinction since you represent the membership of the RCMP in the arrangement here in Ontario where there is a Provincial Police Services Act
02:16:46.860And in other provinces where there are police service agreements where, again, and I've been, I think, pretty specific in my references to the articles in those agreements that have a mapped out protocol of steps where you can deploy resources of the RCMP within the province and where that isn't sufficient to then pull RCMP officers from other provinces under Article 9.3.
02:17:09.960And I believe that that could be potentially a roadmap for an ongoing discussion about how municipal, provincial, and federal law enforcement authorities can work together to address potential future public order emergencies.
02:17:27.340So just to get a little bit granular on that exact point, thank you for that very helpful answer. In Coutts, for example, or Emerson, or in the Lower Mainland, the RCMP was able to rely on Article 9 powers to draw in additional officers to provide that surge capacity, right?
02:17:46.320Yeah, in fact, again, I think it bears emphasizing that that was an authority that was exercised by the office that I occupy.
02:17:54.620And this is one of the customs by which we have developed the dialogue between elected government and police to respond to extraordinary situations that do require additional resources.
02:18:08.400And so, again, just to get a little bit more into the details on this, you know there are about 19,000 RCMP officers across the country.
02:18:42.100Okay, so would you agree with me that the RCMP are uniquely positioned in terms of sheer numbers to provide or facilitate providing that surge capacity in public order emergencies like the one that arose in Ottawa during the convoy?
02:18:58.020I think by the sheer size of the force that there are many members that can be deployed and we do do that.
02:19:07.480so i would say yes that as a result of the size of the rcmp um they are somewhat unique in their
02:19:14.920capacity to deploy across the country amazing thank you so much for uh i think i am under time
02:19:21.880i can't believe that no no you're not don't don't try and pull that
02:19:31.000no no no but but you were close to be fair okay government of canada please
02:19:37.480well this is just going to be a hooray henry type scenario here good afternoon minister
02:19:51.080my name is brendan van denhuys and i'm a council for the government of canada
02:19:55.000good afternoon and i just crawled out of bed can we go please to document com 50951
02:20:07.480i'm showing you a document that's appeared in the commission database that appears to be a
02:20:17.920statement from enterprise canada regarding comments made by mr miller yesterday and issued
02:20:23.680on november 21st have you um have you seen a copy of this document before
02:20:28.660i i i don't believe so this is a statement from enterprise canada on comments from today's
02:20:36.180which is accurate no okay you'll see that it indicates a denial of the what are called absurd
02:20:41.700and despicable accusations relating to that entity and a gentleman named brian fox
02:20:46.800yes do you have any idea what this statement is talking about
02:20:51.680i mean save and accept for the exchange that i had earlier today no
02:20:59.280okay thank you next issue and you can take that down
02:21:02.960From listening to your evidence today, I don't believe it was entirely clear whether you
02:21:11.380had indicated in your evidence concerning the border officers employed by the CBSA whether
02:21:19.620they, in your view, could exercise or could not exercise the powers of peace officers
02:21:25.040at or around bridges and other ports of entry if there's criminal activity observed there.
02:21:32.960I believe that if they were in observation of laws being broken, that they could effect an arrest.
02:21:42.740But if the arrest involved the criminal code, that they would then call in the police and jurisdiction, wherever they were.
02:21:49.940Mr. Ossowski had given some evidence in more particularity about this issue last week, which was to the effect that such officers had no such authority other than with respect to particular offences that are noted in Section 163.5 of the Customs Act.
02:22:08.460Now, to the extent that there is, in fact, any distinction between your understanding and that of Mr. Ossowski, would you defer to that of Mr. Ossowski?
02:22:48.160And I took it that his questions, as I heard them, were focused particularly on vaccines developed by Western countries, such as the Pfizer, Moderna and Janssen vaccines for COVID-19.