00:14:31.600What is the little gotcha stuff going on here?
00:14:34.640I don't understand that. And specifically when it comes to the commission lawyers, usually you would expect that from the opposition council.
00:14:47.420But this guy, like the guy this morning we had for commission council was was pretty good.
00:14:53.440But this guy seems to be a gotcha sort of a lawyer, which means he should be representing one of the other parties and not the commission here.
00:15:01.440That's my opinion. I don't know. I've seen this guy in action three times now, and every time it seems as though he's hostile towards the convoy. Witnesses not so hostile when it comes to the police or bureaucrats or any of the politicians that have been on the witness stand before, including Zexy Lee, who was one of the residents of downtown Ottawa and is part of the lawsuit against the convoy.
00:17:42.780And my mind immediately went to much music,
00:17:44.820and I thought, wow, much music, that's speaker's corner,
00:17:47.220that's where you get to say your piece.
00:17:48.380it seems as though our parliament buildings provincially and federally are inaccessible
00:17:55.100we can't get close to them and if we do it's like you're being watched because of security
00:18:01.560which i can totally understand i mean there should be security around these these buildings but at
00:18:06.060the same time they should be accessible to the public there should be a way for us to get messages
00:18:10.680through to these politicians sometimes we send emails that go unanswered for weeks if they ever
00:18:17.080do get back to us. Try calling, you leave a message, they never get back to you. You write a
00:18:21.640letter, they never get back to you. And if they do, it's a form letter. How can we make it so that
00:18:29.260these politicians are more accessible to us? I mean, even on the city level, the municipal level,
00:18:34.740these politicians are not accessible to their constituents. And that needs to change,
00:18:39.780in my opinion. So I really like the idea of the Speaker's Corner in front of Parliament Hill.
00:18:46.960in ottawa i thought that was a fine idea what does trisha have to say here by the way guys it's a
00:18:55.140brand new stream so introduce yourselves and tell everybody where you're watching from let's build a
00:18:59.480community here that's one of the things this show is based upon building a community trisha says i
00:19:05.740saw a video where this guy went from big mansion to big mansion asking the people what they did
00:19:09.760for a living they were all lawyers living in these huge mansions in downtown toronto i was shocked
00:19:15.020Yeah, you know, you've also got the bourgeois, right?
00:19:23.740The upper class, publicly funded university teachers, university professors, doctors, that kind of a class where they feel as though they're a cut above.
00:19:39.080I mean, us working class, regular, normal folk, which make up the bulk of the population of this country, let's be honest.
00:19:45.040I mean, you know, if somebody doesn't have that kind of a resume when they're running for office, we won't vote for them.
00:19:50.140Would you vote for a person who shows up to a to a debate, let's say, dressed in a flannel shirt and a pair of jeans, not shaven for three days?
00:20:01.660And some guy across from him shows up in the slick suit, hair slicked back, looking good, looking like he knows what he's talking about.
00:20:08.600Who would you vote for in that situation?
00:22:53.420and you suggested it wasn't necessarily enthusiastic.
00:22:56.340I had then pulled up the letter that you'd sent to the Senate in which you say, and hopefully you can see it, that you're a founding member and you enthusiastically supported the party through my social media, public speaking, and attending events held by Maxime Bernier, as well as personal friends Mark Friesen and Randy Hillier.
00:23:19.100And so I take it you agree with me that you were an enthusiastic supporter, at least to the extent you wrote that in the letter to the Senate.
00:23:24.440correct um i misinterpreted the question i thought maybe perhaps meant at the current time i haven't
00:23:31.480been really involved in any um party politics since around this time and um in in as pertains
00:23:40.040to the letter enthusiastically i guess i was referring to throughout the previous federal
00:23:43.640election that it just transpired in the fall um and on your and you mentioned earlier that you
00:23:51.480are a podcaster uh the commission also understands that these podcasts are often videotaped as well
00:23:57.960and the video is streamed is that fair that's correct okay um so it's not just an audio format
00:24:04.280when you talk about a podcast no it's both i usually extrapolate the audio and then upload
00:24:10.840it after to several streaming platforms for typical uh working more uh typical podcasting consumption
00:24:17.720right um and on your podcasts um i take it you would you agree that you're an outspoken
00:24:25.320about your criticism of the federal government yes okay and you're also outspoken about your
00:24:30.920criticism of the rcmp yes and you were as a general matter opposed to the coven 19 public
00:24:38.440health mandates that were imposed by the federal government in general yes and with respect to the
00:24:45.320the RCMP, as I understand it, you've been critical of how they handled the mass casualty event in
00:24:52.140Portapique, Nova Scotia in 2020. Is that fair? Yes, sir. Several days after that event had taken
00:25:00.320place, I reached out to some people that I knew in the area and tried to get a sense of before I
00:25:08.160just started speaking haphazardly without really having as much information as I could. And then
00:25:14.520released a video um on youtube which garnered roughly anywhere between 500 000 to a million
00:25:20.680views across various platforms um in the in the following week um i'm now going to ask you some
00:25:29.400questions about diagonal um again referring back to the letter you sent to the senate you explained
00:25:35.640to them that dia diagonal is a fictional country is that is that at least that's how its origin
00:25:41.240is that fair uh yes sir right um and from the material the commission's reviewed uh diagonal
00:25:49.960on the the origin of it was something you drew on your phone when you drew a line of over the
00:25:56.200continent of north america from the southeast to the northwest of the continent am i describing
00:26:00.760that correctly uh yes so the the concept was born out of a sort of a long kind of stream of
00:26:09.400consciousness. I do a lot of analytical commentary on current events, politics, these kinds of
00:26:15.300things. At the time, I believe it was January 2021, I observed, as many others had, the Midwestern
00:26:23.800United States, Texas, Florida, North South Dakota, and so on, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Alaska,
00:26:28.980geographically formed sort of an oblique line that were resistant to or handling the COVID-19
00:26:36.560approach in a different way these are traditionally conservative areas in canada republican in the
00:26:41.360united states so we you know kind of found it amusing that there was there was this kind of
00:26:47.120geographical divide almost that you could find on a map and you know it became sort of a joke that
00:26:52.400if this was a pretend place a different you know kind of parallel universe a different world and
00:26:56.320so on and um that's that's how the concept was born the the flag you're referencing is what i
00:27:02.560created uh in the weeks following uh on my phone just as kind of a um as a as a mechanism for
00:27:09.480branding symbolism kind of thing for you know community members and it started to become
00:27:13.800synonymous with um myself and the podcast kind of as a as a as i guess a branding mechanism that
00:27:20.780people would you know display and and uh they could buy uh patches stickers and and things like
00:27:26.440this to uh basically you know to know that they're a fan of web money so and i and i take it from
00:27:32.240reading your letter to the senate what you just said you don't take any issue uh and you agree
00:27:35.900that you are associated with diagonal on and the diagonal on flag yes it came out of my imaginations
00:27:42.720yeah yes yeah okay and you talk about you mentioned there i think you said it it began as a as a bit
00:27:49.040of a joke um but as i understand it that joke has now evolved into uh an international community of
00:27:54.880your podcast fans is that fair yes it's um also fairly synonymous with uh another another thing
00:28:02.460is to reference the you know so-called plaid army which was um several me and several other guys
00:28:07.640were just um having a conversation one day we all had similar shirts on someone made a joke about
00:28:12.160you know what is this the plaid army so it was kind of that evolved into this it's essentially
00:28:16.420the same thing it's the same group of people and it's just a uh um again kind of a branding
00:28:22.740mechanism um a way for uh to unite uh community followers and so on right and it's you specifically
00:28:29.400reference in your letter to the senate that it has created an international community of of of
00:28:34.100of your podcast fans is that correct yes there are followers in in fans in the united states
00:28:40.700some of europe australia and as i understand a stand from your letter that these uh this
00:28:48.460community engages in regional meet and greets barbecues and family gatherings uh yes correct
00:28:55.340sometime in the uh summer of 2021 i believe um we kind of hosted uh just people wanted to come out
00:29:05.260and kind of kind of a meeting read with myself and some other guys and uh we had as you said
00:29:09.820barbecue um you know i had some drinks some guys were playing guitars and so on i observed that
00:29:14.300um there was a few dozen people that came from as far away as uh British Columbia, Ontario,
00:29:18.540uh we met in Saskatchewan and it struck me as um in this time of a lot of people feeling very
00:29:25.260isolated and depressed a lot of them expressed to me how much this meant for them to feel as
00:29:29.180that they had some kind of connection and um and kinship with other people that felt the same way
00:29:34.620as they did about the about the future and shared their fears and concerns and so on and I just
00:29:39.020observe how much it seemed to help them and heal them and make them happy so i
00:29:44.700began what i called a find your friends campaign so i used uh using my uh online presence and my
00:29:51.340telegram channel and so on uh set up kind of uh regional areas or chat channels to uh facilitate
00:29:59.180by i mean not everyone can can come all the way to saskatchewan from pdi newfoundland or so on
00:30:04.060so if there's people um that are like-minded that are in your area that share these that are a fan
00:30:09.580of my my podcast and so on and you'd like to meet each other and share this kind of uh this this kind
00:30:15.100of uh activity that you could do so uh this way i was just trying to create a a you know an avenue
00:30:20.940for them to to pursue and i encourage people to do that rather than sitting at home looking at
00:30:24.940their screens and you know being fed you know fear and and you know what i believe is a lot of toxic
00:30:30.700messaging on the media and television and so on and i thought it would be good for people to get
00:30:34.220out and you know have real face-to-face human interactions and relationships again and i thought
00:30:39.820it'd be beneficial to their mental health and i saw nothing but uh you know good things coming
00:30:43.500from that so i i encourage people to do so okay and uh you mentioned a first or an initial meat
00:30:50.780barbecue in either the summer 2020 2021 um after that have you attended personally any of these
00:30:56.380other meet and greets that uh you encourage people to participate in there was one other one
00:31:03.100in uh in saskatchewan that i was uh president there was another party sort of barbecue in
00:31:09.500in uh ontario in perhaps april of this year and there was um another gathering outside the city
00:31:18.780of ottawa during the uh during the uh convoy uh period of time in february and are there
00:31:25.500other former canadian forces members in the diagonal community yes there are um i've often
00:31:32.780incorporated a lot of my commentary my my unique i suppose you could say uh kind of lived experiences
00:31:41.020through through the military my how i deal with my uh you know the inherent trauma and so on that
00:31:46.140comes with that it has gathered a it has attracted a fair amount of um other other veterans and
00:31:52.540military personnel because they resonate with the things that i'm saying they i'm speaking to
00:31:56.380something that they can understand or identify with so there is there is a a fair number i i
00:32:02.620couldn't hazard a number specifically but um a sizable um portion of the community especially
00:32:07.660early on where um other guys that knew me from work or or for so long but uh kind of spread
00:32:12.620through the areas um because i'm an unspoken veteran and so on do members of the diagonal
00:32:19.660community ever refer to themselves as bigots yes they do um this was um my doing um to try
00:32:29.180and kind of take power out of the word um as it was being used as a as a slur as a slanderous
00:32:35.420kind of defamatory method towards people like me and my followers and fans and so on
00:32:41.500so um we just kind of adopted as a tongue-in-cheek kind of defined way of shrugging it off is because
00:32:47.020it doesn't you know bother us that these people are you know i showed that it doesn't bother me
00:32:51.180it shouldn't bother them and they shouldn't care what you know these people think you know they
00:32:54.620shouldn't let allow them to um you know attack them in this way and get under their skin and
00:32:59.820make them feel bad just because they are who they are and they like what they like so you and your
00:33:03.740followers were being called bigots it didn't bother you and so as a way to show it didn't
00:33:09.180bother you you embraced it and identify yourself now as bigots
00:33:12.540in a tongue-in-cheek kind of sarcastic tone yes
00:33:17.980and is that sort of tongue-in-cheek sarcastic tone consistent with the sort of comedy that
00:33:24.860you perform on your podcast uh i would say that yes i'm a fairly sarcastic person yes
00:33:32.140and we already you already mentioned uh the diagonal uh symbol or flag and i'm going to
00:33:39.320pull it up just to confirm everyone can see what we're talking about if we can pull up com 906
00:33:45.200and again mr mackenzie at any time if you can't see anything that i've put up on the screen just
00:33:58.340let me know um so is that you in this photograph that's on the screen yes this this was at a um
00:34:06.900one of the gatherings i believe outside of ottawa sometime in february i believe this is a still
00:34:12.340uh image from a from a video that was taken i was standing on top of a table addressing the uh
00:34:16.980the people that had arrived and attended and was just simply thanking them for showing up and
00:34:21.460encouraging them to keep you know taking care of each other and you know hope they have a
00:34:24.500good time and so on and uh fair to say that the the flag in the background that's a diagonal flag
00:34:30.980yes okay um and uh the commission is uh understands that on february 15th uh 2022
00:34:43.300you said in a video that you could not wait until that flag is seen as a or is is described as a
00:34:50.040hate symbol do you know what i'm talking about yes sir again i was being um kind of um
00:34:57.080tongue-in-cheek in a way it because the people that i believe are deciding what is and what is
00:35:04.600not as a hate symbol are uh incredibly disingenuous and um you know kind of smear
00:35:11.040merchants um it was would have been kind of a kind of a gotcha trophy uh over them not as not
00:35:18.360as trying to explain what he meant to these people is like banging your head against the wall
00:35:23.920um you know achievement that you know kind of lured them in more to uh to focus on myself
00:35:29.180and do you see and and i take it then that this is another sort of part of your comedy
00:35:34.120called wanting this to be called a hate symbol satire yes it's because it's again um satire
00:35:42.220jeremy say satire we say these things and it certainly isn't uh a symbol of hatred but we
00:35:48.000find it amusing that our i guess enemies if you could say um do believe this and believe these
00:35:55.920absurd uh claims about us and it's just kind of an inside joke at this point you sell
00:36:08.000i personally um i have a a shop that has just recently gone online in the past
00:36:14.560two or three months previously other um you know friends of mine offered like the the flags for
00:36:21.380example another man was selling uh patches he was making it cost just to help promote uh community
00:36:28.660visibility and give people something that i thought would be nice for some people to have
00:36:32.200something to hold in their hand and kind of have them bring them some attachment and just something
00:36:36.160for them to enjoy and display so the people who were selling the merchandise they were friends of
00:36:40.620years yes they uh they sold it with your approval yes they did and they are also part of the
00:36:49.560diagonal community they would likely identify as as fans of mine and yes um however um as you can
00:36:59.380probably observe it's not a particularly complicated uh thing to produce um so i don't
00:37:07.160It's not a copyrighted symbol by any means.
00:37:09.320There's no real official ownership to it as of yet.
00:37:13.660So people would just approach me of their own voluntary intention and ask, like, hey, do you mind if I make this or make that and sell this for whatever?
00:59:41.900The, as it goes on, yeah, the public order unit, that was given to me specifically by this user on Telegram from the RCMP, allegedly they were.
00:59:54.500Right, and you're talking then about the part that's in bold after that, is that correct?
01:00:07.220Did Mr. Morazzo ever talk to you about meeting with Mr. Kanellakis or meeting with any government officials in any of the conversations you had?
01:10:59.420Okay. And just to be clear, Mr. McKenzie, other than that event in Saskatchewan and then the other event in September 2021, is there any other times you've met with Mr. Lysak?
01:23:01.540Good afternoon, Mr. McKenzie. My name is Stephen Aylward.
01:23:04.500I'm one of the lawyers for the Government of Canada.
01:23:06.700Mr. McKenzie, you described Diagalon as a grassroots community. Do I have that right?
01:23:18.180No, I wouldn't say it's grassroots. It's spreading from my imagination, and I create the content from which the lore and amusement and entertainment and so on attracts people to it,
01:23:34.420in which they were then either self-identify as a fan or not.
01:23:39.260And you've described yourself as the de facto leader of Diagalon?
01:39:55.000And have you ever been in contact with or anyone communicated to you who is a current member of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service who's a supporter of you or a fan of you?
01:40:11.400No, I've actually made numerous overtures and offers to speak to the Canadian Security Intelligence Service to try to shed some light on myself and this community that they seem so concerned about.
01:40:24.040And as of today, it's the first day that I've ever been asked a single question by anyone in any official capacity about it.
01:40:30.980Right. And you mentioned that you had three or four people or sometimes as many as 20 people staying with you in the same location in Ottawa.
01:40:43.100Is that right? Correct. Yes. And those were up to 20 people who were supporters or fans of yours.
01:51:09.240So I'm not going to take you to this specific document, but for the record, it's OPP 835, and it's a document published by the Canadian Anti-Hate Network, which I take from your earlier testimony you disagree with.
01:51:22.540But it describes Diagelon, also referred to as Plaid Army, as a conspiracy-based network that is increasingly evolving into a militia comprising neo-fascists who anticipate a violent revolution, which they will seize power.
01:51:37.940I take it you disagree with that assessment of the organization.
01:51:41.780He's going with the anti-hate network.
01:51:44.900Yes, I disagree, and I don't agree that this is an organization.
01:51:47.940My imagination is an organization of any kind.
01:51:50.780I'm not clear on what neo-fascist acceleration means,
01:51:54.600and in my opinion, the Canadian anti-hate network
01:51:58.080is not a credible news or information research source.
01:52:02.940Fair enough, but I take it you would agree with me
01:52:05.360that at least some people might interpret your messaging in that way?
01:52:09.780Because obviously the Canadian Anti-Hate Network does.
01:55:53.000And do you know if the Canada Anti-Hate Network's views about you
01:55:58.560have been relied upon by law enforcement
01:56:01.080or other senior officials in the federal government?
01:56:05.060Yes, I have, through, again, legal disclosure,
01:56:08.140documents referenced by law enforcement, open source intelligence, and so on.
01:56:12.280There are a number of pages and articles and things written by the Canadian anti-hate network used as justification for their assessment of me.
01:56:23.220And let's just stop for a second and sing it.
02:11:26.420Could you tell the commissioner who your vice president is?
02:11:31.020The vice president is of Diagon, which is of my imagination.
02:11:35.000He is my sidekick that has evolved over the years.
02:11:40.140He's a demonic goat figurine named Philip with a very, very serious narcotics problem and time-traveling ability.
02:11:50.560Do you think any reasonable person who consumes your content either regularly or semi-regularly would actually consider Diaglon to be an organization?
02:15:31.360I think that sometimes he talks without speaking.
02:15:35.340I think he talks under the influence of alcohol sometimes.
02:15:39.540And what he said regarding Pierre Polyev's wife a few weeks ago was absolutely unacceptable.
02:15:49.380Now, I'll tell you guys something. I spent a long while on radio all across the country, and I pushed many boundaries while I was on radio.
02:16:03.140I worked primarily at rock stations up until the last three, four years of my career when I switched to news talk.
02:16:11.760And you can go and push the boundary, but you need to know where the edge is.
02:16:22.100And will you say certain things you're going to regret?
02:18:58.080and well spoken most of the time he just needs to smarten up when the time comes he needs to
02:19:07.220understand no i can't go there maybe he doesn't have the interlocutor in his head i don't know
02:19:12.560but he is a talent this guy he is and he can be absolutely brilliant and a huge boon to the
02:19:22.820freedom side of things but he can't say that kind of stuff that's that's not acceptable
02:19:28.180why is he in jail in Saskatchewan is it weapons charges I have no idea what's going on there
02:19:35.800there's a publication ban somebody was saying in the comments I think it was Felicia Felicia
02:19:40.440what is it weapons charges I don't know what's going on out there
02:19:44.820anyway um let's take a break for a bit now guys what we need here is more people we've got over
02:19:54.620a thousand people that's great we need more people on the stream danny bulford is going to be the
02:20:01.180final witness of the week he is a former rcmp officer as a matter of fact i believe he was on
02:20:07.900Justin Trudeau security detail and he just couldn't take it anymore so he resigned
02:20:14.660about a year ago I think it was about a year ago he couldn't not take Justin Trudeau maybe
02:20:22.800maybe he couldn't take Justin Trudeau anymore but it was the mandates he was having a an internal
02:20:31.360conflict and he just couldn't do it anymore couldn't look at himself in the mirror anymore
02:20:35.660and he became a large part of the freedom movement starting with the convoy i believe
02:20:42.040back in january february so he's going to be the final witness today this week
02:20:47.160and we'll hear from him in just a couple of minutes so i'm going to take a break
02:20:52.260you take a break i'm going to leave the stream open uh don't forget to share it out there guys
02:20:57.520let's get as many people as we possibly can on board here and we'll enjoy the last few hours
02:21:03.940What I'm not going to do tonight is a regular show because I've been on already since 830 this morning and it's going to be another two and a half or three hours.
02:21:14.480So no regular show tonight. I believe the testimony is going to go a little bit later tonight than it did last night.
02:21:20.480So no regular show tonight. Sorry to tell you, I haven't had time to pair it. It's been all day with this.
02:21:28.600and I do know actually you know if you do want to watch something really cool
02:21:34.840some of you might have watched this last night Chris Scott from the Whistle Stop Cafe in Mirror
02:21:40.580Alberta last night had Leighton Gray on his show and they revealed some very good news about what
02:21:46.540happened in the courts in Alberta just this past week so I'm trying to get Chris on I just texted
02:21:51.900him this afternoon and hopefully Leighton Gray as well at some point next week to discuss that
02:21:56.520because it could be applicable, possibly,
02:21:59.540depending on the type of emergency that was called in your province.
02:37:48.420there was a very heightened state of anxiety about how much further
02:37:56.620the situation in Canada would degenerate and what I mean by that is that
02:38:03.840the dehumanization effort had begun and that was in I believe that was in August of 2021
02:38:13.560when the Prime Minister had initially announced the impending federal vaccination mandate
02:38:21.920and then he was campaigning into September for his snap election
02:38:26.420and he was making comments regarding...
02:38:31.600Okay, sir, we only have an hour, so I think the Commissioner understands what you're saying.
02:38:38.600The ultimate problem was that the Canadian population was led to believe that people like myself and my family were a threat to other people and their children, which was not true, by his own admission in July of 2021, on camera.
02:38:55.940Hank, and you're a member of an organization, Mounties for Freedom, that opposes public health measures and specifically COVID-19 vaccine?
02:39:09.220And also police stand on guard for thee, which are police officers active and retired who state admission includes to repair and regain public trust being damaged or lost due to the enforcement measures of emergency, sorry, due to the enforcement emergency measures, correct?
02:40:25.100Now, when did you first learn of the Freedom Convoy?
02:40:48.520At least one week prior to its arrival in Ottawa.
02:40:52.680Probably before that, saw circulating videos on social media about its growing size and travel across Canada.
02:41:08.440And did somebody contact you to become involved with the convoy when it arrived in Ottawa?
02:41:14.880So, initially, I was supposed to work in a volunteer security capacity for a number of the doctors that were speaking out against the COVID-19 health measures and vaccinations because they had received a number of threats.
02:41:39.900So myself and a number of other individuals with similar training in close protection, we're going to be providing a volunteer security service to them.
02:45:03.400And just generally, what function did you perform in liaising with those police forces?
02:45:11.600Well, there was a tremendous amount of information coming in to me on any given day.
02:45:19.360And so what I viewed my primary function, what I spent the majority of my time doing was triaging information that could have been any type of threat to public safety, anything that I felt had any kind of credibility or something that was beyond my scope to verify, I would forward that to all of the different police liaisons I was connecting with.
02:45:49.360And I understand you were working out of the Swiss Hotel where there was an operation and logistical support center?
02:53:34.020Now, we've heard evidence that from time to time, some emergency lanes were blocked, either on a short-term basis or, for example, on Kent Street, on a long-term basis.
02:53:54.960What observations did you make about emergency lanes?
02:53:58.320i did see when i would do a let's refer to it as a perimeter walk that the only place that i ever
02:54:11.160observed that the emergency lanes were blocked was for roughly i would estimate two maybe three
02:54:19.440blocks north and south on kent street and that was it that's all i recall okay and then um
02:54:34.880my i apologize perhaps at rito and sussex as well okay we'll come to to rito and sussex
02:54:43.920um if you can turn up please mr clerk pb dot nsc dot c a a n dot four zeros one three six seven
03:02:23.240the largest event I've ever observed in downtown Ottawa in my time here and what about the
03:02:32.880conduct of the participants well it was a I'd say it was a very festive atmosphere
03:02:40.440people were very emotional hugs all over the place um there was this the stage the crane
03:02:52.140stage truck had already been established up at the intersection of metcalf and wellington by the
03:02:57.300time i got out for the very first time to go actually see it for myself and so that that's
03:03:03.140where i i went and it was in it was it was incredible there was the crowd was humongous and
03:03:12.760people if i recall correctly the first time i got out was to actually go make a speech
03:03:20.740on the stage truck and it was a very overwhelming emotional experience because i
03:03:28.280i felt that there was a sense of hope that canada wouldn't go to a very dark place and what was your
03:03:35.980speech about just very generally it was well i know that i included some of those remarks in my
03:03:43.060speech that prior to that convoy i was ready to leave the country i was my wife and i had discussed
03:03:50.480that at length moving somewhere where we would be well treated as an equal citizen
03:03:57.060and and especially for the future of our children and that seeing the convoy and the rallying
03:04:05.580of support behind it all across canada restored my faith in canadians that they weren't just going to
03:04:13.740let canada degenerate further did you talk about security issues or behavioral issues
03:04:21.780i did i i i gave a thank you to the first responders and i even kind of tipped my hat
03:04:30.640slightly to some of my old colleagues that were up on the roof of the parliament buildings doing
03:04:35.140overwatch you know saying that i know a lot of these people they're good people and they're here
03:04:40.480to protect us too there was a great deal of mistrust of the police and and i reminded everyone
03:04:50.740or advocated for everyone to remain lawful, peaceful, and lawful at all times
03:04:55.900so that the government and the media could not label us
03:04:59.600with similar derogatory terms that they already had.
03:05:06.680And if we could go back up, please, HRF 401553.
03:05:15.400and if you can just scroll through that to the date february 1
03:05:25.760so if you can stop it uh just there i take it you took daily notes of everything that you were
03:05:47.820doing yeah i tried to document as much as i could and that's all set out in your your statement yes
03:05:54.200So, for example, you were dealing with issues like if you identified on February 1st, or you received a call about an aggressive unidentified male at Wellington and Metcalf, and you reported that to the police.
03:06:21.740Yeah, I don't recall if I called the police.
03:06:24.200I think people that were present at the stage truck at the time called the police.
03:06:28.880And if you just keep scrolling, please, you'll see there's a number of events or issues that you dealt with on February 1st and then into February 2nd.
03:06:40.160And then if we come to February 3rd, could you put up these HRF four zeros, one, two, eight, seven?
03:06:54.180This is a letter from the Justice Center for Constitutional Freedoms to the mayor.
03:07:14.000but it refers on on page two to a press conference that you gave on february three
03:07:26.760that's correct and so in the second paragraph there you indicate that you'd like to put people's
03:07:38.720minds at ease the public is watching people that have concerns over what they're seeing in regards
03:07:45.060to the heavy police presence what was your objective there just to bring down the overall
03:07:53.120anxiety level of the protesters i mean in my mind ottawa residents have seen that type of police
03:08:01.640presence probably on a regular basis at large scale events but a lot of these people that
03:08:07.160traveled to ottawa have likely never been here before and likely never participated in in an
03:08:13.900event of this magnitude so i just wanted everyone to understand that when you have a massive crowd
03:08:21.960such as this come to the national capital region for a large event it's normal to have multiple
03:08:28.760police agencies involved it's normal to have specialized units moving around in more tactical
03:08:35.600looking clothing and it's normal to have snipers on rooftops because that was something that a lot
03:08:40.400of people were really panicked about they were nervous about the presence of snipers being on
03:08:45.520the roof and that being my old job i was able to speak to people and keep the you know keep them
03:08:52.480calm like it's totally normal don't panic that's what happens here all the time
03:08:56.400and if you can go put up please hrf four zeros one two eight nine
03:09:55.800this um keep going please this is an affidavit that you swore in connection with the
03:10:06.360uh proceedings uh the class action commenced by zek c lee yes that's correct
03:10:13.880and you talk about at paragraph seven and eight if you can scroll there
03:10:21.200about a complaint from an ottawa resident about honking through the night
03:10:26.720yes that's correct and you say you told him that quiet hours from 8 p.m to 8 a.m had been put in
03:10:34.820place when what was your understanding that who put that into place my understanding is that the
03:10:43.540truck captains had already put that into place maybe even the day before if not no if not that
03:10:53.220day the day before that's what was communicated to myself and this was the one and only complaint
03:11:00.740i ever received about it and what was your understanding moving to through the period of
03:11:09.860time that the convoy was in ottawa did that change well there was the injunction came into place as
03:11:18.580well which uh definitely definitely impacted the horn honking and i i would i would say in my
03:11:29.200opinion it reduced it even further thank you and can we go to paragraph nine of your affidavit
03:11:38.920you say there my primary concern is individuals or groups with potential to deliberately instigate
03:11:47.640conflict with the freedom convoy movement and to discredit the freedom convoy can you
03:11:54.840say what your how that why that was your concern well that would go back partially to my concern
03:12:04.380about a lone wolf or small cell that could potentially try and leverage the large crowd
03:12:12.500for their own agenda but i also i also had concerns because i've i've done overwatch at
03:12:21.140a number of protests and counter protests in ottawa and i've seen with my own eyes how aggressive
03:12:29.500groups related to the antifa movement can be when they are much larger in numbers than the group
03:12:39.680that they're counter protesting against and how aggressive they can be overrunning the police line
03:12:44.940as well so when you were referring to instigators who were you referring to
03:12:50.220well people who were who would deliberately try to initiate
03:13:01.040a violent interaction with a freedom convoy protester or
03:13:07.200maybe even someone who would try to infiltrate the crowd with a racist type flag to try and
03:13:18.240bring discredit to the freedom convoy protest and do you recall and i believe the date was
03:13:26.820february 8 having a conversation with constable where's vicky about your concern and displeasure
03:13:34.360with the psychological operation being waged on convoy participants yes i do what was that about
03:13:41.480so in the initial i would say close to initial two weeks i thought that chief slowly was pretty fair
03:13:53.060in his uh remarks regarding the convoy you know understanding his position as the chief of police
03:14:00.560of the city of ottawa but i thought that he was pretty unbiased and then after the
03:14:06.480i think it was a council meeting or a police services board meeting there was a lot of rhetoric
03:14:15.260regarding the freedom convoy protesters allegations of being extremists insurrectionists
03:14:23.600I believe even the term domestic terrorism may have been thrown around.
03:14:29.080And I noticed at that time, that was, it also coincided with a lot of that same rhetoric from the legacy media.
03:14:42.500And, you know, and we'd already heard and seen the Prime Minister using similar language.
03:14:48.840and so i felt that that was that was definitely heightening the anxiety of the overall crowd
03:14:58.560the the fear that they were going to be labeled such and dealt with as such by law enforcement
03:15:07.060because they were under so much pressure from the from uh the different levels of government
03:15:13.360And there was also, I believe that was right around the same time that there was also, they were being denied access to service some of the portable toilets.
03:15:32.060So, I mean, you're denying people their basic sanitation needs.
03:15:36.520And there was also information beginning to circulate about the involvement of CAS.
03:15:43.360or Children's Aid Society, I believe is what that stands for.
03:15:47.620And that to me was, that was a clear red flag to me
03:15:52.840that if you are deliberately trying to provoke people to take action,
03:15:59.540if you make them believe that you're going to take their kids away,
03:16:04.180that's going to elicit a very strong emotional response.
03:16:08.120And I believe that that was deliberately done
03:16:10.140in order to bully the Freedom Convoy protesters.
03:16:16.440And we can put up these document HRF 50568.
03:16:26.900is this the type of daily security uh briefing that you would prepare
03:33:57.520Can you tell the commissioner about that, please?
03:34:00.980To my recollection, we realized that our bank accounts were frozen.
03:34:06.680So two different banks and a primary credit card.
03:34:11.100I realized, I think we, how I recall it going was that accessing online banking with our primary bank, and it was just like a blank dash where the account balance would normally be.
03:34:30.400And then my wife confirmed with the other bank, attempted to use the credit card, and it was declined.
03:34:41.100and my wife spoke to a banking professional a friend of ours to ask
03:34:49.980if with our accounts frozen would our mortgage payments and automatic withdrawals still
03:34:57.200still be paid and we were advised that it would not be and so i would say roughly a period of
03:35:04.000five to six days we were completely dependent on what cash we had and after that how long were
03:35:15.600your accounts frozen i believe it was my accounts were unfrozen on the tuesday the the 22nd or the
03:35:26.90023rd of february when the after the emergencies act had been revoked so they were frozen for how
03:35:33.300many days i i believe i realized they were frozen on the 17th and then i think that was the thursday
03:35:43.060i didn't receive any kind of notification about it until i think the the bank one bank
03:35:50.660called me and left a voicemail message on the saturday
03:35:54.060and then it was it was unfrozen after the emergencies act had been revoked
03:36:03.420and were you able to meet your day-to-day expenses during that period
03:36:07.840well that is not the point the point is they were frozen in the first place fortunately we didn't
03:36:16.200didn't have a whole pile of expenses that we had to incur during those days but we
03:37:38.120And you had the sense that they wished they had more ability to negotiate?
03:37:44.560Yes, I would say that's accurate. I do recall, you know, when there was attempts to negotiate, occasionally receiving the reply to like, that wasn't their decision to make.
03:38:02.520Right. In your statement you prepared, you have a statement that says Canada Freedom Rights Movement, a Daniel Joseph Bulford statement. That's a statement that was prepared for you by the Justice Centre's lawyers?
03:38:30.480Okay. And did you suggest that everyone else do that as well? No, I did not. Okay. In that report, you indicate a number of potentially criminal actions involving non-convoy members that you reported to the OPS.
03:38:47.100And so I see things in that report about bikers, about the new queen of Canada, false claims that bricks had been ordered in your name, potential instigation, concerns about Canada unity, vandalism of trucks, social media posts made by Mr. Lacasse, a shortage, a sabotage of transport trucks, bikers and bomb threats.
03:39:17.100right? Those are all things that you referenced. That's correct. And you're a strong supporter,
03:39:23.000I take it, of law and order. My dad was a police officer for 38 years. Both of my older brothers
03:39:31.540were police officers. Obviously, I was. And there's only one of us remaining. But
03:39:37.140my hometown in Alberta referred to us as the Byzantin Blue Bloods.
03:39:42.660and I know from the Ottawa Police Service institutional report that I won't turn up
03:39:50.540in order to save time, that during the period of the convoy, there were a number of criminal
03:39:56.360charges laid. In fact, we know, and it's on page 14, that there were 533 of them according to
03:40:04.900Schedule C. But what I don't see a single notation of in your statement is where you brought any of
03:40:14.960those criminal offenses to the attention of the Ottawa police.
03:40:24.360Can you refresh me on the dates that you're referring to?
03:40:28.380The dates? Yes. Your statement, I'm not sure when your statement was prepared,
03:40:32.960But the evidence that we have in the record is that during the period of the freedom convoy, so from January 28th to a date in March, there were a total of 533 criminal charges.
03:40:54.280Sorry, I can't remember if that's laid or people arrested.
03:40:57.680And so I didn't see anywhere in your statement where you brought information about that criminal activity to the attention of the Ottawa police.
03:41:10.700I have an objection. My friend is misstating the evidence to the witness, and I object to it.
03:41:18.140On that basis, the evidence is that the vast majority of charges were laid after the fact,
03:41:24.620and actually, at least based on the one document and evidence, criminal charges that existed at
03:41:31.100the time before the invocation were only about 19 of charges laid. So with respect to my friend
03:41:39.420stating in the OPS document, and I can advise the Commission, that after I looked at what
03:41:46.180they had put together, I asked for disclosure from them with respect to when these charges
03:41:52.840were laid, and they've decided not to provide that, and they're using a jumbled-up statistic.
03:41:59.800So in my submission, sir, my friend's going to ask the witness about why he didn't include
03:42:05.060OPS information in his statement that isn't clear, I think he needs to actually put the
03:42:13.640actual evidence that is before this tribunal before him and not jumble it up into a fact
03:42:19.560that these are 500-some-odd charges that may or may not have been laid during the time
03:42:43.840And I don't see anywhere in your statement where you reference informing the Ottawa police of the situations leading to those criminal charges.0.95
03:42:54.560Well, I often reported to the Ottawa police, the various police agencies, anything that came to my attention that I believed to be criminal or a public safety concern.
03:43:09.840And I believe that the majority of those arrests and charges happened during the dismantle operation of the protest, a significant chunk of which I was in custody.
03:43:20.740You were in custody as of what date, sir?
03:43:23.040February 18th. Um, and, uh, well, the record will speak for itself. Um, and so in your statement,
03:43:32.900um, in paragraph 80 of your statement, you say you did everything to cooperate with the police
03:43:40.040and to maintain public, uh, uh, peace and police safety. Is that correct or is that incorrect?
03:48:52.460And so he said there were former law enforcement officers. They had radios, maps. Many of these
03:48:59.140ex-service personnel were connected and brought in intel. Wilson is unaware of the sources,
03:49:05.380but the Freedom Convoy was receiving leaked information from law enforcement. I just want
03:49:11.100to be clear, you never became aware of any leaked information from Ottawa Police Service officers,
03:49:18.120did you? I will be 100% clear. At no time did I receive sensitive information from an active duty
03:49:25.200Ottawa police officer. And you never received confidential information from an Ottawa police
03:49:30.740officer, did you? No. Okay. And Mr. Wilson never told you who these people were? No. And you were
03:49:39.620very involved in the security uh the response and the incident command um that was going on at that
03:49:47.240hotel correct that's correct so one would expect that you would know if there was leaked confidential
03:49:51.820information correct yes i expect i would um and you're not suggesting obviously that if such a
03:50:01.600thing had occurred that the ottawa police service would condone that kind of thing correct
03:50:06.360I think it's fair to say that the Ottawa police would not condone that.
03:50:11.260Right. And one of the things you referenced in your statement at paragraph 80 is you accused the police leadership, and I'm just going to quote you, of, quote,
03:50:22.500knowingly attempting to instigate a strong emotional reaction from convoy participants by using inflamed rhetoric and threatening the involvement of child protective services.
03:50:36.360yes that's correct okay um mr clerk i wonder if i could ask you please to call up hrf
03:52:49.820And you know, of course, from your experience in law enforcement, that it's easy to be an armchair quarterback and say what's wrong with the police carrying out a tactical operation after the fact. Correct? It's very difficult to be on the ground and in the theater of operations, isn't it?
03:53:09.460I would agree with that. And I think to add context to the answer is that I believe in my statement, I outlined why I believed that occurred.
03:53:18.220And you would agree with me that in the theater of operations, police may be dealing with situations that may be volatile and more dangerous than appear to onlookers, correct?
03:53:38.260And you're aware from the police operations that were carried out by the Ottawa Police Service, the OPP, the RCMP, and a number of other public order units, you're aware from your experience that there would generally be an arrest and detention plan prepared for those type of circumstances, correct?
04:12:21.220But you don't have any evidence for that?
04:12:23.500Well, I did see a photograph of a gentleman who I know to be a photographer that follows Mr. Trudeau around on a regular basis, taking a close-up shot of a gentleman carrying a Confederate flag.
04:12:38.400Because Confederate flags can be viewed as a racist flag, is that right?0.61
04:12:42.440That's correct. It appeared staged to me.
04:12:44.660Right. And you didn't think that there was anyone involved in the convoy who brought Confederate flags to the protests, is that right?
04:12:53.500not that i was aware of what the video i seen the video of a masked man like wearing a
04:13:01.660winter bella clava walking through the crowd with a confederate flag and the video that i saw was a
04:13:08.060number of protesters telling him to get out of there right because he wasn't welcome and they
04:13:13.140didn't want that type of they didn't want that type of symbol being associated to the convoy
04:13:17.640right all the convoy people left their confederate flags at home like mr barber
04:13:21.960sir i don't know what beliefs all of the people that came to ottawa hold and i don't know what
04:13:32.380they have in their possession that would be purely speculation on my part all right thank you
04:21:32.020uh also on that in that same press conference you also stated my primary concern is individuals or
04:21:43.300groups with the potential to deliberately instigate conflict with the freedom convoy movement correct
04:21:48.740that's correct and that was to you your most important concern because you knew from your
04:21:54.820past experience the potential for individuals or groups whether associated with you or not
04:22:00.180to use the convoy as cover for their own means correct yes i would agree that anytime you have
04:22:08.100a large event where there's a large crowd of people there's the primary concern from the
04:22:15.220police standpoint would be a mass casualty attack and by february 3rd you had already begun to
04:22:21.860appreciate the number of different factions and elements that were converging on downtown ottawa
04:22:26.980correct yeah i would agree with that for instance you were involved uh as i take your evidence with
04:22:34.580mounties for freedom you were volunteering with adopt a trucker and you were also closely
04:22:39.620associated with the freedom convoy correct well yeah i mean my role with volunteering
04:22:46.180with adopt a trucker was in direct support of the freedom convoy but you were not associated
04:22:51.940with Canada Unity correct? No sir. But Canada Unity was there at the convoy? Yes. Yeah and you
04:22:59.120were not associated with James Bowder correct? No sir. No and the MOU that that he brought with him?
04:23:05.180No like I said the first time I read it was last week. But he was there at the convoy correct?
04:23:10.420I heard that he was. The first time I ever seen him was here at this inquiry.
04:23:15.880And you were not affiliated with the Farfadas that were at Rideau and Sussex correct?
04:23:20.140I also had no idea who Farfadas was or what that was until after I read about Mr. Charlin's arrest out near Van Cleek Hill after the convoy had been dismantled.
04:23:38.740And the individual describing herself as Queen Ramona and her supporters, you weren't associated with her or her supporters, correct?
04:27:26.260I received word while I was at the Swiss Hotel that that was occurring, and the information that I received is that someone was pretending to be me and deputizing people.
04:27:39.420And so the people at the Swiss Hotel took photographs and maybe even a video of me to have proof that I was currently at the Swiss, not falsely deputizing people at Coventry Road.
04:27:51.520And so I called one of the gentlemen who was appointed contact at Coventry Road and asked him, was this taking place?
04:28:00.640And he knew nothing about it, but he was in, I think he was in a tent or a shelter of some kind.
04:28:05.120So I asked him if he could go outside and check.
04:28:07.520He went outside and checked and confirmed that there was nothing going on there.
04:28:11.440I did later end up questioned by the, I think it was Ottawa police questioned me about that.
04:28:18.300And I relayed the same information I just said to you.
04:28:21.520Okay. So just one last question. These examples that you and I have just discussed, in your view, are they examples of a peaceful protest?
04:28:30.940Well, I don't believe any of those instances resulted in any real violence. Thank you. Those are my questions.
04:28:37.480So Adolf, there was trying to go for all the crazies.
04:28:40.220is uh counsel for former uh chief slowly he was trying to go for all the all the crazies and
04:28:46.620really i mean like any any protest is going to draw people like that and nothing happened
04:28:53.300so that whole time was wasted it's hard corporal bulford tom curry for former chief slowly a couple
04:29:01.440just a couple of things but many of these questions have the other questions i had had
04:29:06.160have been asked by my friends. Could I just ask you to look at the statement that you prepared
04:29:12.180with us, please? HRF 1553, Mr. Registrar. Just when this comes up, I just want to go,
04:29:19.100please, if we could, to paragraph 19. When we get there, I hope we find, there it is,
04:29:29.960maybe 18, if you don't mind, just a little higher. Thank you. I think you told us that you emailed
04:29:35.160an introduction to those representatives of the OPS, RCMP, and PPS early in your tenure
04:29:43.820with the convoy and identified who you were and what you were going to do, right?
04:29:53.020And then just scroll down, if you don't mind. You see the sentence, please rest assured,
04:29:58.080all organizers of the convoy group are operating under strict instructions that every single
04:30:03.940person involved must be respectful and lawful at all times and that was your mandate from those
04:30:11.520with whom you had been dealing that's correct yes that was i mean i would not have been involved if
04:30:19.480i didn't think that was going to be the case one of the challenges is as you've described that
04:30:23.800this was a very difficult organization that is the convoy in its largest sense to have any command
04:30:33.200or control over yeah i i don't think we actually without any official authority of any kind you
04:30:41.880know you're not operating within a police organization or a military unit you're trying
04:30:47.200to do the best you can as a bunch of civilian volunteers to make sure that people are all on
04:30:52.320board with the messaging yeah and and try as you might and others have testified to this try as you
04:30:58.380might to have imposed a requirement for respect and for conduct that is respectful and lawful
04:31:07.560you weren't always able to achieve that goal fair i think we did a very good job considering the size
04:31:15.920of that convoy and that and the the crowds that that protest generated but you weren't
04:31:21.780always able to control the conduct in the way that you might have liked is that is that fair
04:31:28.040Well, sir, honestly, my intention was never to try and exert control on people because I was no longer a person of any kind of authority in Canada.
04:31:38.440The reason I ask is because as you watched this, especially with your experience, as you watched the convoy, the events of the convoy unfold from the earliest days when you arrived until the end when you yourself were arrested,
04:31:56.200You must have had a sense that the end was coming through this public order exercise unless there was some other breakthrough.
04:35:15.800And then Mr. Guerra, would he have taken direction,
04:35:20.040strategic direction from the from the board of the of the convoy corporation once it was
04:35:25.640incorporated or were you aware i would say that's accurate because our whole purpose of being there
04:35:33.000was to support the truckers i mean the whole initial mission was to provide food and shelter
04:35:41.520and transportation services to protesters was part of your effort in the the within that group
04:35:50.520the incident command group to keep track of the the number of police personnel who were on the
04:35:58.540scene no sir okay no i that was not something that we were interested in i mean the police
04:36:04.680were going to do what they were what they were going to do and we were trusting them to do their
04:36:09.720job then just finally a couple of things if i may if i could mr register i'm sorry to drag that
04:36:14.800document back up 1553 thanks so much and if you could go to paragraph 99 just want to get your
04:36:20.380help with with one one thing please these go to the events of february the 15th um
04:36:28.620and you had a visit at the Swiss Hotel described here in which OPP and OPS liaison officers
04:36:46.540attended to meet with volunteer coordinators and Ms. Leach. You were one of the volunteer
04:36:53.000coordinators yeah i was the volunteers volunteer security coordinator and and who were the other
04:36:59.140volunteer coordinators if you recall with whom that meeting or who attended that meeting well
04:37:05.100it was myself tamara leach and the the former ottawa paramedic okay got it so three of you
04:37:11.720and three police personnel to the best of my recollection yes and it was at that meeting
04:37:17.760that they attend they you've written that they attended to discuss the recent document provided
04:37:23.140by police to convoy participants and that's the document that laid out that the emergencies act
04:37:29.040having been declared it was now required that people vacate the the uh the protest set fair
04:37:34.600well it's more nuanced than that because when i reviewed that document i know which one you're
04:37:40.860talking about it had the red border outside of it we read i read through the criteria and
04:37:46.880i don't think any of us in that room with those liaison officers met the criteria laid out
04:37:54.240in that in that document from the ops of people that were no longer permitted into the downtown
04:38:02.380that's what tamara was talking about you engaged with i won't read all of it but
04:38:05.680you spoke to the to those officers to express your concern that that the growing that the use
04:38:12.520of force by police against the peaceful protests without negotiation was was wrong and they ought
04:38:18.780not to do that yes fair i did and then and uh scroll down if you don't mind please just to
04:38:25.200paragraph uh 102 now that we're on the 17th um and you had an encounter with another officer
04:38:33.460detective benson uh to who replied to your inquiry about being or whether you were uh on
04:38:41.340people were on the lookout for you no mr benson contacted me by text message after tamara leach
04:38:48.580had been arrested okay thank you and um you had an exchange with him i'm just interested in the
04:38:56.120second last sentence he responded by saying that the occupation was beyond a protest not an
04:39:01.740the trucks had to go and you replied to him that it was not an occupation not an occupation well my
04:39:07.900belief that a definition of an occupation is usually like a foreign military has taken control
04:39:13.580of another country yes it was it did you do you now accept thinking back about it that from the
04:39:20.180perspective of the the the residents of the city of ottawa the ottawa police service that the protest
04:39:26.240embedded as it was was the equivalent of an occupation no i don't agree with that okay
04:39:34.640now a final final thing my friends asked you about whether you had information from active
04:39:40.380serving officers or service personnel of the ottawa police service or any other police service
04:39:45.580you tell us tell the commissioner if you know in respect of the information that mr wilson had
04:39:52.360Am I right that, so far as you know, the information Mr. Wilson had was the same as the information you had, that is, only from retired, that is, non-active police personnel?
04:40:04.420I can't say that for certain, because Mr. Wilson spent, the majority of the time Mr. Wilson was at the Ark Hotel, and the majority of the time I was at the Swiss Hotel.
04:40:13.400All right. Thank you. I don't have any other questions.
04:40:15.340Well, Mr. Clean had a lot of one last things there, didn't he?
04:40:18.100Next, if I could call on the Ontario Provincial Police.
04:40:22.360although i do have to say i like mr clean there and i think we should probably give
04:40:28.500every lawyer that comes up a nickname i like adolph for the the government lawyer i have no
04:40:35.720questions okay opp has no questions uh for the uh democracy fund uh jccf and uh citizens for freedom
04:40:47.020Commissioner, Rob Kittredge for Justice Center.
04:40:50.280We have no questions for this witness, and to the extent it may be necessary, we'll cede our time to Mr. Miller.
04:41:17.020For the record, Brendan Miller, Mr. Bulford, I'm counsel to the Convoy, or sorry, Freedom Corp, who is the entity representing the protesters that were in this city in February and January of 2022.
04:41:33.080Commissioner, just for ease of reference, what I'm continuing to do now, just to get to the point, your counsel have been excellent in adducing evidence-in-chief, and I'm just going to deal with examination from the questions that arose from the other parties.
04:41:47.020And so I'll try and be quicker now for you.
04:41:50.500I won't hear many complaints, I think, from the hall on that.
04:41:58.600So there's a couple of things, and there will be a couple of documents that arose that are in the system already from my friend's questioning I want to put to you.
04:42:06.720But the first thing I'd like to ask you about, Mr. Bulford, is Parliament Protection Services.
04:42:13.120This is, of course, to most Canadians, a sort of police service that nobody understands and nobody knows much about.
04:44:08.240council are you referring to uh text messages text messages yes
04:44:12.240so it's gonna and i'll have to get the other one too so it's seven seven
04:44:15.920two four is the next one just so you know
04:44:19.760Now, I'm not sure if you were present or you had watched this part of the hearing when I referred to these text messages.
04:44:33.240This is a text exchange between one of the staffers with the Prime Minister's office
04:44:38.880and another one of the staffers with the Minister of Public Safety's office, okay?
04:44:43.180And this is, in this context, the staffer with the Prime Minister's office, states to the staffer with the Public Safety Minister's office, that got a quick response.
04:52:02.380And moving on from that point, my friend brought up with you the issue with respect to danger of people staying and the advice you were giving and everything.
04:52:15.720And I'd like to bring up OPS document 14504, please.
04:52:55.360And so was that one of the documents that formed your understanding of what was to happen?
04:53:04.560I thought it was just reinforcing Justice McLean's decision that as long as we abided by those three conditions of no one coming to Ottawa to commit violence,
04:53:16.560do not block critical infrastructure and do not disrupt trade we were still considered a
04:53:25.020lawful protest and the people that they were delivering that message to such as myself and
04:53:31.360the others didn't fit into any of those categories that i'm reading here right and
04:53:38.320with respect to the position they're in that says they need to move their trucks
04:53:42.660you're not contesting that that was going to have to happen?
04:54:02.640And so it was your belief and you were advising Canadians to come to Ottawa
04:54:07.500or to stay in Ottawa in order to carry out that sort of protest?
04:54:11.080You know, I hate to. It's David Michikowski. I hate to spend more time on Friday evening of everyone, but we really are getting you to cross-examinate.