The Shadoe Davis Show - Shadoe at Nite Special Edition Friday Nov. 4th⧸2022

00:00:00.000 Amen.

00:00:30.000 good morning everybody how are you and welcome to another special edition of shadow at night

00:00:40.240 this is friday um november the 4th 2022 8 30 a.m central time um the time changes this weekend

00:00:50.480 for those of you who don't live in saskatchewan i totally forgot about that my girlfriend just

00:00:56.440 reminded me don't forget i said don't clocks do that on their own these days so uh the public

00:01:02.580 order commission is just getting set to begin i'm going to bring it up on the screen here for you

00:01:07.340 my system is a little bit logie this morning so you guys might get this a little bit choppy like

00:01:12.540 even worse than yesterday morning i hope it's not the case but everything looks okay on this end

00:01:19.060 so hopefully it translates that way on your end and the good news is i'm going to be shopping for

00:01:25.560 another system this weekend one that's better with more power so when this comes up again and

00:01:32.200 it will in the next couple of weeks when all of the federal ministers come to testify

00:01:35.640 we won't have that problem but for now this is what it is so um the reason i'm doing this you

00:01:43.220 guys aside from the fact this is very compelling stuff is the community involved and the comments

00:01:50.240 that we get to see and the people we get to watch it with after all watching something like this is

00:01:56.380 cool but watching it with other like-minded people is even better so i'm going to bring it up for you

00:02:02.080 guys now and well it is up actually there is no audio yet that's why i'm thrown off

00:02:12.260 aside from the fact that the last couple of days have been very long days my apologies

00:02:19.740 Oh, here we go.

00:02:23.840 So there's Tamara.

00:02:24.660 She is on the stand.

00:02:26.540 There's the commissioner, Commissioner Rouleau.

00:02:29.320 The Public Order Emergency Commission is now in session.

00:02:31.900 La Commission sur l'état d'agence est maintenant ouverte.

00:02:34.440 Good morning.

00:02:35.720 Bonjour.

00:02:37.740 Yes, Mr. Michikowski.

00:02:40.320 Thanks very much.

00:02:41.260 David Michikowski for the Ottawa Police Service.

00:02:44.280 I have a preliminary matter to raise, and I'm seeking your direction.

00:02:49.220 It concerns the testimony of the panel of witnesses who are going to be appearing later today.

00:02:57.420 So I'm happy. I just wanted to alert you of it.

00:03:01.340 I've advised my friends that Commission Council, and I'm in your hands as whether you want me to raise it now

00:03:07.300 or wait till the witness has finished her cross-examination.

00:03:12.020 I'd suggest we deal with it after the witness has finished,

00:03:16.960 if that unless there's an urgency and I think perhaps just have you advised the

00:03:23.400 parties of the issue I advised them Commission Council yesterday and I heard

00:03:31.460 back friend we've had some discussions so certainly Commission Council is aware

00:03:37.300 of our position I have not had and I heard back from Commission Council this

00:03:43.020 morning and so I have not yet advised my colleagues of the issue. Okay it might

00:03:51.000 be worthwhile and I don't know if you can do it by email or you want to do do

00:03:56.380 it orally but just give a heads up to the parties so that when we get to it

00:04:01.980 everybody will be have thought it through and if that's okay. Sure thank

00:04:07.440 Thank you very much.

00:04:08.440 Okay, and we can deal with that a bit later, but I'd suggest we complete this and move

00:04:17.560 on to that issue once we complete Ms. Litch.

00:04:22.880 Okay, so unless there's anything further, we can start the cross-examinations and I

00:04:30.600 believe the first is the Government of Canada.

00:04:35.440 uh i i can but uh go ahead um my friends uh it is not a problem with me so uh go ahead mr champ

00:04:51.940 this guy

00:04:54.060 Paul Champ

00:04:59.580 what a loser

00:05:01.460 I just have another matter Mr. Commissioner

00:05:04.520 later this morning

00:05:05.860 good morning Ms. Leach

00:05:07.840 my name is Paul Champ

00:05:09.980 I'm lawyer for the Ottawa Coalition of

00:05:12.240 Residents and Businesses and I have some questions

00:05:14.220 for you concerning your testimony yesterday

00:05:15.820 now I want to start

00:05:18.580 with something Ms. Leach I think we both

00:05:20.380 agree on uh you're not a national security threat in any way i don't believe i am no and i also want

00:05:28.620 to make sure that we're clear on the record uh i as you know i've i've been able to see a lot

00:05:34.140 of the financial information and so forth and other proceedings and so forth and uh you did

00:05:39.260 everything you could to keep track of that money and deal with it responsibly the money that was

00:05:43.020 going through your hands absolutely where's he going with this in no way did you ever divert

00:05:47.500 any of that money towards yourself improperly.

00:05:51.000 And I'm saying that that's what I've seen.

00:05:53.100 You've dealt very responsibly in every way you could with the money.

00:05:56.520 Yes, sir.

00:05:58.060 And you also testified yesterday you wanted to come to Ottawa

00:06:01.160 for the right reasons.

00:06:02.940 And by that, I mean you wanted to organize with other people,

00:06:06.840 bring people together over that issue that was important to you,

00:06:11.100 and send a message to the government and to your fellow Canadians.

00:06:14.320 That's what you wanted to do in coming to Ottawa?

00:06:16.460 Yes, sir.

00:06:17.500 And you testified yesterday that you originally thought you wanted to drive across Canada,

00:06:23.320 stand in front of Parliament with some signs, and you thought that's what the protest would be.

00:06:27.800 Is that right?

00:06:28.980 Yes, essentially.

00:06:30.940 I had no idea that it was going to become what it evolved into, yes.

00:06:35.280 For sure.

00:06:36.400 But then once the enormous amounts of money started flowing in through GoFundMe,

00:06:43.380 and people were energized around that,

00:06:45.940 it opened up other options of what this protest could could look like is that fair

00:06:51.020 i believe that everyone that that was involved and that joined was was in it to

00:06:56.780 be listened to be have their voices heard as far as the mandates and the restrictions and the

00:07:02.280 lockdowns went but it made other things possible like you you know we were able to get the stages

00:07:10.920 and the sound system and the resources to cover fuel and so forth

00:07:16.140 for a much longer period than you had originally anticipated, correct?

00:07:20.820 That the donations that came into GoFundMe, as we specified in the description,

00:07:26.800 was for fuel to get them to Ottawa and home.

00:07:29.840 Right.

00:07:30.360 So, yeah.

00:07:32.260 Yeah.

00:07:32.720 So, but once you had a lot more, that opened up options

00:07:34.780 that you could keep getting fuel to the trucks for a while while they were here.

00:07:38.420 That is part of the idea?

00:07:40.300 I guess that's fair.

00:07:42.360 And we saw some, or I've read a news story about some texts that you had with Mr. Barber.

00:07:50.140 Yes.

00:07:50.560 I presume you're aware of the news story in those texts?

00:07:53.920 Yes, I am.

00:07:54.420 And in those texts, it's my understanding that you had some exchanges with Mr. Barber on or about January 30th

00:08:02.420 about a strategy meeting at the command centre about gridlocking Ottawa.

00:08:08.760 can you tell us about that well i can tell you what i remember which obviously isn't much um

00:08:14.920 gridlock is not a term that i would normally use so um and as the text message clearly states

00:08:21.440 uh that that was not up to me that was not never something that we advocated for sure so and you

00:08:28.820 have to understand that there was lots of times where we would have meetings but we'd go in there

00:08:33.680 and have a meeting about something totally different.

00:08:36.420 Right.

00:08:37.240 But there was a talk about that,

00:08:38.740 is that this should be the strategy going forward,

00:08:41.380 is keeping the trucks in the streets, gridlocking downtown.

00:08:46.520 That was part of the strategy at that point.

00:08:48.400 No.

00:08:49.440 No, we never wanted to gridlock the city.

00:08:51.800 It was always, as I said,

00:08:53.200 especially as we saw the momentum growing

00:08:55.140 and the support that we were getting,

00:08:56.920 safety became our number one priority.

00:08:59.940 And as you heard Mr. Morazo testify,

00:09:01.880 that was especially important to him,

00:09:04.220 having a son that made frequent ambulance trips to the hospital.

00:09:09.660 Right.

00:09:10.160 Unfortunately, we heard that he didn't necessarily know

00:09:12.020 about all the streets.

00:09:12.840 He didn't know about Kent Street, for example,

00:09:14.800 which even Mr. Barber acknowledged was shut down the whole time.

00:09:19.000 But you didn't have any visibility into that.

00:09:21.840 That wasn't part of your responsibility, I gather.

00:09:23.920 Okay.

00:09:24.660 Now, I want to ask you some questions about the horns.

00:09:27.480 You testified yesterday that at some point, even for you,

00:09:30.940 the horns became a bit too much uh you couldn't even carry on a conversation on the sidewalk when

00:09:36.080 all those trucks were blaring that at times yes yeah and um the uh i think i'd seen

00:09:42.760 video once where you're talking when when all the semi trucks when they blow their horns it's

00:09:49.340 it's just crazy that was that was the experience was it not well i think that's taken out of

00:09:54.780 context if you are you referring to the video that i made yes yeah and i believe i said it

00:09:59.700 was music to my ears that was within a couple of days of getting there and there was a lot of

00:10:04.680 excitement and uh it was a very jovial atmosphere but ms leach i know you strike me as a very

00:10:14.240 reasonable person you would agree with me that uh you know having a big rig a semi-truck idling

00:10:20.200 right in front of your house 24 hours a day emitting uh diesel fumes honking horns prolonged

00:10:28.720 periods during all day sometimes at night that's not reasonable to a person that lives there would

00:10:33.720 you agree as i said yesterday when i was in my hotel room i didn't really notice it the horns

00:10:42.380 honking and and i was right downtown but you wouldn't want a big rig to pull up for example

00:10:48.480 in front of your parents home and park and idle for 24 hours a day for several weeks honking

00:10:53.220 their horn you wouldn't want that would you misleach well mr champ my ex-husband was a

00:10:57.880 tool push on a drilling rig and I've spent many time many days on the site of a drilling rig and

00:11:03.360 there's a lot of diesel fumes and there's a lot of noise. Yeah it's not pleasant is it? It is it

00:11:09.680 is what it is. Yeah but then you get to go home and you get to get away from that noise and those

00:11:14.480 diesel fumes right? Not when you're living on on site no. Now I want to ask you some questions

00:11:21.620 about the injunction we uh on february 4th to the 5th you heard about that there was a motion

00:11:28.340 from the the residents of ottawa to get an injunction to to stop the the horn honking

00:11:32.640 correct yes and uh we heard from mr wilson a bit about that that there was a meeting of the board

00:11:39.460 or the leadership group about what to do and there was a decision to oppose the injunction

00:11:43.180 correct i've never opposed the injunction well you swore an affidavit to oppose the injunction

00:11:48.940 Ms. Leach, let's be clear on that.

00:11:51.000 Well, once it was imposed, of course,

00:11:53.340 we weren't going to go against the injunction.

00:11:56.480 Well, no, there was a court hearing on Monday, February the 7th,

00:11:59.880 where Mr. Wilson represented you and Mr. Barber and Mr. Dichter,

00:12:04.280 who were named individuals on it, to oppose the injunction.

00:12:07.660 You weren't aware that that's the position you were taking?

00:12:11.400 I don't recall that, but if you say so, then.

00:12:13.820 And you swore an affidavit in support of that position, which I should say, I swore an affidavit that the injunction should not be granted.

00:12:24.760 If you say so. I've sworn a lot of affidavits, so if you say so.

00:12:29.440 Is it fair to say there was a lot going on?

00:12:31.280 There was a lot going on.

00:12:32.100 It was hard to follow all the different things that were happening?

00:12:34.320 Yes.

00:12:35.080 And you may not have known exactly what the team was doing on some of those issues?

00:12:41.040 I guess that's fair to say.

00:12:42.440 Okay. Now, Mr. Wilson told us yesterday that on the board, there were some who there was a bit of division on the board. Some felt that, yeah, the horns are a bit too much. You know, maybe we shouldn't oppose this injunction. And some were like, no, we should oppose it. Do you recall that meeting?

00:12:58.540 I was probably there. But as I said, I was in and out of a lot of meetings. So I don't recall that specifically.

00:13:05.200 Okay. And you testified yesterday that once the injunction was issued, you worked very hard or worked really hard to see that it was adhered to. Do you recall your testimony on that?

00:13:15.520 Yeah, the truck captains did for sure. Yes.

00:13:18.420 Right. But you yourself, you didn't do anything directly to ensure that the order was adhered to, did you?

00:13:26.440 I don't believe I did, no.

00:13:28.120 No, you didn't post any videos or make any statements on your social media account

00:13:32.180 attempting to discourage the truckers from blowing their horns?

00:13:35.760 My Facebook page was deleted about the first week we were here.

00:13:43.900 But you didn't put up anything on it before it was deleted?

00:13:46.760 No, I did not, no.

00:13:48.620 And you also, you never posted a copy of the court's injunction order

00:13:54.980 or the terms of it in any way on any of your social media?

00:13:58.120 correct i don't believe so no and uh were you aware that there that was a term of the court

00:14:02.880 order that you were supposed to do that i don't believe so okay so mr wilson may not have

00:14:07.860 communicated that to you he may have um again it was it was very chaotic times

00:14:13.800 so what champ is going for here he is the lawyer for the citizens of ottawa who put a lawsuit up

00:14:22.000 against the convoy and he's trying to get tamara to admit things here so he can use it in the in

00:14:27.880 the future case it has nothing to do with the emergency commission so i see what you guys are

00:14:32.440 writing in the comments here that's what he's going that's the day that gofundme issued the

00:14:37.920 statement saying they're shutting off the shutting down the um uh the fundraiser and they're going to

00:14:45.140 return all the money to the donors you recall that day i do and uh when gofundme shut you down you

00:14:51.900 You lost what was potentially access to $10 million, correct?

00:14:56.080 Correct.

00:14:57.620 And GoFundMe put out a statement that day saying, quote,

00:15:00.600 this previously peaceful demonstration has become an occupation.

00:15:04.400 Do you recall that?

00:15:05.440 I do.

00:15:06.840 And by that point, you had also, I gather, been following some of the news stories,

00:15:12.780 some of the reporting, talking about the negative impact that the protest was having on residents,

00:15:17.580 you know, caused by the blocking streets and the honking.

00:15:19.640 Were you following that?

00:15:20.380 I didn't have a lot of time to read the news to tell you the truth.

00:15:25.020 And on that Friday, February 4th, after GoFundMe took away that $10 million,

00:15:30.740 you learned later that day that you were being sued for $10 million.

00:15:34.300 Is that right?

00:15:34.940 It was probably around that same time, yes.

00:15:38.760 So that was a bit of a rotten day, losing $10 million, being sued for $10 million?

00:15:44.100 You could say that, I guess, yes.

00:15:45.680 um now did you consider or talk about with anyone else maybe working on an exit strategy at that

00:15:52.720 point uh we've been in talks about that shortly after the legal team arrived actually

00:15:58.940 and and after that one day when gofundme shuts you down uh did um did did you

00:16:07.700 would that have been a time for you to start thinking about shutting down the protest or

00:16:14.920 coming up of saying hey guys we sent our message and going home was that ever part of the discussion

00:16:18.920 not to my knowledge as i said yesterday we were waiting to be acknowledged by somebody

00:16:27.380 in the federal government who was willing to come and listen to what we had to say

00:16:31.580 right but and but you told us yesterday also another factor is that the the lawyers from the

00:16:36.780 justice center for constitutional freedoms they had showed up and they were they were giving you

00:16:40.020 good advice they were supporting him by that point is that right yes they've been there a day or two

00:16:44.160 by that time yes sir and is it fair to say that without them you might have considered packing it

00:16:48.900 in i i don't know that's really hard to say so on the friday february the 4th gofundme shuts you

00:17:00.320 down you're sued for 10 million dollars uh then uh on the sunday february the 6th the city of

00:17:07.060 ottawa declared a state of emergency do you recall that yes and then the next day on monday the 7th

00:17:15.300 the court issued the horn injunction um so did you start thinking then or was there any discussions

00:17:21.700 then but maybe maybe the protest should start packing it in there might have been i know again

00:17:28.740 to reiterate we were very focused on on being heard and having our concerns listened to

00:17:35.540 And then on February the 11th, Premier Ford in Ontario,

00:17:38.880 they declared a state of emergency about what was happening in Ottawa.

00:17:42.380 You recall that?

00:17:43.240 Not specifically the date, but I do recall that happening, yes.

00:17:47.180 Weren't you getting the message?

00:17:48.240 You testified yesterday, Ms. Leach, that, well, no one told you to leave.

00:17:52.320 The police weren't telling you to leave.

00:17:54.340 All of these things, you know, the Premier, the Mayor, the courts, GoFundMe,

00:18:00.520 that wasn't a message.

00:18:01.720 that the city of Ottawa residents suing that wasn't a message that maybe it was time to leave

00:18:06.720 well we had a message too yeah and so and that was that was more important than what

00:18:16.940 the stories that I heard coming across Canada yes Mr. Champ it was that were absolutely

00:18:24.300 heartbreaking after two years of lockdowns and restrictions yeah

00:18:30.960 now you reached the deal with the mayor around sunday the 12th i believe yes the 13th the 13th

00:18:40.960 i think something like that that's right and uh the freedom convoy uh put out a statement about

00:18:46.620 the deal you recall that yes i do and in the statement you said things like you never wanted

00:18:51.300 to to impact the the residents of downtown ottawa that's correct and uh you wanted to agree to the

00:18:57.700 deal to relieve the pressure on the people in downtown ottawa absolutely sir right because

00:19:02.420 there had been pressure on the people of downtown ottawa by that point well as i said we didn't want

00:19:07.940 to create a big disruption to them we wanted to be respectful to the citizens of ottawa for sure

00:19:13.860 because from january 29th until february the 13th you you recognize it wasn't very respectful to the

00:19:20.660 the people of downtown Ottawa?

00:19:22.100 Well, what I will say is that I was approached

00:19:24.940 by hundreds of Ottawa citizens who had come out to support.

00:19:29.240 I was approached by federal government employees

00:19:31.600 who were donating items to the protesters.

00:19:38.960 We had a lot of support in Ottawa from the Ottawa citizens.

00:19:43.920 Except for those that were suing you, I guess.

00:19:46.140 I guess, yeah.

00:19:47.140 And the mayor who was elected by the citizens of Ottawa,

00:19:50.440 while he apparently wasn't supportive of you staying in downtown he wasn't and i gave him

00:19:55.740 great credit for be willing for being willing to sit and talk to us yeah and and let's just be

00:20:00.700 clear here mr misleach no one was asking you to leave completely it was about moving the trucks

00:20:06.220 and having the truck stock idling out in front of residences and blowing the horns all night and

00:20:11.480 day that was the big message so you wanted them to go to somebody else's house is that right mr champ

00:20:17.200 now you testified yesterday that um once the emergencies act was issued and it looks like

00:20:27.140 there was going to une fois que la loi des mesures d'urgence a été déclaré et que la police allait

00:20:32.440 donc se mobiliser vous avez témoigné que vous avez encouragé les gens acquittés les manifestants

00:20:37.700 acquittés c'est vrai what's with the mais vous n'avez pas utilisé les plateformes sociales non

00:20:41.740 So, these are people that you have met in person?

00:20:45.580 No, no, no, this is not the French channel.

00:20:47.500 Yes, especially people who are part of my team.

00:20:49.740 You didn't think it would be better? You had so much influence on people who were here in Ottawa protesting that you should put it out on social media, that, hey, you guys, maybe it's time for us to leave.

00:21:01.340 I, obviously, I didn't.

00:21:03.660 well and obviously another thing that you did miss leach is uh from i understand your testimony

00:21:09.620 yesterday uh you suspected you were about to be arrested and you went out to the street to ask

00:21:14.920 the police officers or have someone ask the police officers they were looking for you right

00:21:19.240 yes that's true and you went out with someone uh who could record the arrest when it occurred

00:21:24.020 right everybody has a cell phone these days for sure and when you were arrested i didn't hear

00:21:29.940 Commission Council ask you this but as you were being arrested you were yelling hold the line

00:21:35.620 correct? Yes well the one of the road captains that I was with said it and I repeated it back

00:21:41.620 to him yes. Right and by that statement I take it you weren't encouraging the other protesters to

00:21:47.180 leave Ottawa were you? You were encouraging them to stay to hold the line correct? Well you know

00:21:53.540 that's a matter of perspective. My perspective on hold the line means stay true to your values in

00:21:58.720 the face of diversity oh she's so good but uh you'd agree with me it was leech that some people

00:22:05.380 uh who were protesting who were following you at that time when they saw that message they would

00:22:10.300 have interpreted to hold the line to to stay hold the line to them some might have interpreted it

00:22:15.760 that way would you agree i can't speak for what how what other people think you don't think that's

00:22:22.300 well when you speak and you've got that kind of a platform you recognize that people are listening

00:22:26.280 to you have a great deal of influence on those people well again it comes down to how you define

00:22:30.800 the term i suppose so just assist me with this ms leach i'm just i'm trying to reconcile when

00:22:37.200 you're telling us that you were encouraging people to leave but you didn't put anything

00:22:41.160 out on social media but then uh you were with only one or two people at the time you arrested

00:22:46.780 uh someone that you know you knew who recorded that video don't you i do yes yeah you know that

00:22:51.640 person personally i do yeah yeah and so uh they recorded it uh you you were aware you saw them

00:22:57.340 recording right yes i did and then you yell out hold the line because you wanted the people to

00:23:02.100 stay in downtown ottawa is that right again i was repeating what one of the road captains had said to

00:23:09.220 me okay and she didn't yell it either i've seen that one last point um so yelling for reasons

00:23:19.220 that remain utterly unclear to me commission council asked you yesterday about the impact of

00:23:23.380 your arrest and your charges against you uh and i just want to make clear you weren't charged with

00:23:28.820 an offense under the emergencies act were you it's my understanding you've been charged under the

00:23:32.580 criminal code i believe so yes all under the criminal code right you were charged in the

00:23:36.500 criminal code for mischief and charged for uh interference with lawful use and enjoyment both

00:23:44.100 under the criminal code, is that right?

00:23:46.880 Mischief, counselling mischief, intimidation, counselling intimidation,

00:23:51.600 and a few more.

00:23:53.340 Right, but no offence under the Emergencies Act?

00:23:55.840 No.

00:23:56.920 And the indictment talks about activities from February the 7th

00:24:01.740 up till February, I think, 19th, or the date that you were arrested,

00:24:04.940 is that right?

00:24:07.020 Perhaps.

00:24:07.540 Or the start of the date is before the invocation of the Emergencies Act, right?

00:24:11.620 I'm not sure.

00:24:14.100 Thank you, Ms. Anchorage.

00:24:16.340 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

00:24:18.540 He's such a goof.

00:24:25.280 Okay, next is the Government of Canada.

00:24:28.760 Okay, this might be good.

00:24:30.980 I hope it's the guy with the bedhead.

00:24:35.900 Nope.

00:24:37.020 Damn.

00:24:37.800 Thank you, Commissioner.

00:24:38.860 Good morning, Ms. Leach.

00:24:40.140 Good morning.

00:24:41.100 I'm Andrea Gonzales.

00:24:42.460 I'm one of the lawyers for the Government of Canada, and you've told us in your evidence

00:24:49.520 that you were not one of the founders of the Freedom Convoy, but you became involved because

00:24:55.980 you wanted to help.

00:24:57.280 Yes, ma'am.

00:24:58.780 And primarily, your role was fundraising, and you were quite successful with that, right?

00:25:05.200 Yes.

00:25:07.500 You told us you're not a trucker, you don't have a truck.

00:25:10.480 I do not.

00:25:11.800 And in the time you spent in Ottawa, there were obviously protesters, truckers who were sleeping in their trucks.

00:25:19.480 I believe so, yes.

00:25:20.900 But you didn't. You were staying in the hotels.

00:25:24.300 I was, yes. I didn't have a truck here to sleep in.

00:25:26.820 Right. And during that time, you've told us it was incredibly busy and surely exhausting for you.

00:25:33.200 Very much so.

00:25:34.720 Lots going on.

00:25:35.680 You said you were in and out of different meetings, briefings, on various calls.

00:25:41.620 You were dealing with the crowdfunding platforms, switching campaigns, for instance.

00:25:46.240 Yes, ma'am.

00:25:48.500 You were dealing with the funds being frozen, setting up bank accounts.

00:25:53.260 That all took a lot of your time.

00:25:54.760 It did take some time, yes.

00:25:56.220 setting up the finance committee and the various administrative aspects that went along with that

00:26:03.780 also took portions of your time yes um and you were uh through all of this you've told us

00:26:10.360 constantly meeting new people there were new people arriving all the time that wanted to

00:26:14.480 meet with you yes there was yes yeah lawyers advisors accountants canadians um and mr wilson

00:26:22.940 the other jccf people mr eros were just some of the names you gave us right yes um and you said

00:26:30.080 this was a lot of pressure for you you felt pulled in different directions i yeah there was times

00:26:35.400 when it was definitely very chaotic and very crazy and you participated in many of the press

00:26:41.980 conferences you were getting put in front of cameras yes ma'am have we got a troll in the

00:26:47.320 comments tell me what his name or her name is putting you forward as the leader mr wilson

00:26:51.320 you'll recall describing you as the spark that lit the fire. I do recall that, yes. And you also

00:26:56.700 said people, you felt at times people didn't see you, they just saw the money. Yeah, there was

00:27:01.960 times when I felt that way. And all of these dealings were consuming a vast amount of your

00:27:08.000 time during the days and weeks you spent in Ottawa? Yes, yes it was. You, I gather in all of this,

00:27:14.620 couldn't leave your hotel very often uh in the beginning in the early days no um but as as the

00:27:23.020 days wore on i was able to get out and and to the crowds yeah and occasionally and get out and talk

00:27:28.380 to the truckers and stuff like that occasionally you spoke um up in parliament hill i did yes

00:27:34.460 and you understand that the the protest occupied quite a large physical geographic area of ottawa

00:27:42.380 yes yeah um wellington right out to s jam yes we've heard um parliament south as far as somerset

00:27:50.940 i'll take your word for it i don't know the streets sure enough and the evidence is in the

00:27:56.060 record um uh you've heard there was um trucks parked in the streets by the market in the

00:28:02.300 redo and sussex area yes yes um for a period of time in the early days anyway they were out in

00:28:08.940 confederation park there was an encampment there yes i believe so and the one out in uh coventry

00:28:15.160 road in the parking lot yes stadium as well as those that were a bit further out of town um 1500

00:28:22.380 bronson road were you aware of that one i i'm not sure of the addresses but there was some out of

00:28:27.200 town yes you said yesterday something about 88 that would be exit 88 off of the 417 i think it's

00:28:34.520 by Embrun?

00:28:35.520 Embrun.

00:28:36.520 Embrun?

00:28:37.520 Embrun?

00:28:38.520 Sorry.

00:28:39.520 Yeah, I believe that's the one, yes.

00:28:40.520 Out in Armprior, you heard about Van Cleek Hill?

00:28:42.520 Yes.

00:28:43.520 Yeah.

00:28:44.520 And you, with all the demands on your time, were not spending the vast majority of your

00:28:52.020 time in any of those places, right?

00:28:54.240 You just couldn't.

00:28:55.240 I visited them.

00:28:56.240 I visited them, but yeah, not as much as I wanted to.

00:29:00.240 Yeah.

00:29:01.240 And I think I've seen you here throughout the hearing.

00:29:03.900 You've been here almost daily.

00:29:05.140 Yes, ma'am.

00:29:06.520 And we've heard some evidence about some of the things that were going on in the protest crowds.

00:29:13.180 I take it this was evidence you were hearing information you were learning for the first time,

00:29:17.820 like the threats to the mayor of Ottawa?

00:29:21.500 I didn't know he was receiving threats.

00:29:24.080 You didn't know that Chief Slowly had received death threats?

00:29:26.920 No.

00:29:27.260 You didn't know that Deputy Prime Minister Freeland had received...

00:29:35.240 I learned of that the other day, yes.

00:29:37.580 A couple days ago, and the Prime Minister was receiving threats?

00:29:41.180 I didn't know that. I was also receiving death threats.

00:29:44.580 Were you also learning for the first time as you sat through this hearing

00:29:49.840 about numerous weapons-related arrests in connection with these protests?

00:29:54.780 Or did you know that at the time?

00:29:56.380 I did hear something about coots, but again, I didn't follow those stories that closely.

00:30:01.380 I was too busy here.

00:30:04.040 And weapons-related arrests in Ottawa?

00:30:07.800 As far as I know, there was no weapons-related.

00:30:10.260 Okay, well, there's been some evidence about that,

00:30:13.400 and if that's the case, that would be the first time you learned about that.

00:30:17.100 Yes, I don't recall hearing about weapons, no.

00:30:20.600 We've heard evidence about protesters surrounding police and bylaw officers

00:30:25.100 who were trying to do their jobs.

00:30:26.960 Is that something you knew was going on at the time?

00:30:29.320 No.

00:30:29.980 No.

00:30:32.440 And this document was introduced into evidence yesterday

00:30:37.740 by my friend Mr. Diana, but no one spoke to it,

00:30:41.940 so perhaps we'll pull it up.

00:30:43.080 It's OPP401819.

00:30:47.760 Nobody's comments are being blocked by me.

00:30:50.000 You need to go to newest comments in the tab,

00:30:52.460 in the toggle at the top of the comments section.

00:30:55.060 Newest, not most relevant.

00:30:56.920 It's an OPP intelligence report for February 14th.

00:31:03.140 And if we could please scroll down to page two.

00:31:09.260 And just, sorry, the very first paragraph there.

00:31:12.140 And February 14th, of course, that's a big day.

00:31:15.240 That's the day that the Emergencies Act invocation was announced by the Prime Minister, right?

00:31:20.160 Yes.

00:31:20.380 And the first bullet point there says Ottawa Police Service identified an online video in which a driver at the blockade had made inflammatory statements referencing violence, such as using a truck as a weapon.

00:31:33.320 The video also showed him displaying a protective vest, which he claimed would stop an armour-piercing round.

00:31:39.320 He claimed that he brought it with him to protect himself, and that he had worn it at the blockade.

00:31:45.720 uh opp field officers have spoken with this male and his truck has been positioned in front of

00:31:52.720 chateau laurier since the beginning of the protest and i take it that's new information

00:31:58.280 for you as well that is new information for me yes and you you've you've testified in this

00:32:04.040 commission that you had to believe everyone who was getting involved was doing so for the right

00:32:09.680 reasons that they were joining with the best of intentions and these are at least some examples

00:32:14.400 of people who maybe didn't have the best of intentions, right?

00:32:17.480 Correct, which is why I continually was online advocating for peace,

00:32:23.240 to remain peaceful, to abide by the law, and to respect our law enforcement.

00:32:28.520 Right.

00:32:31.080 And in the various press conferences and press releases that you were involved in

00:32:38.840 and that were being put out in the name of the Freedom Convoy,

00:32:42.180 the message was repeatedly being communicated that the convoy was here to stay in Ottawa until the mandates were lifted, right?

00:32:55.000 Yes.

00:32:55.500 As long as that took was the messaging.

00:32:58.080 Yes.

00:32:58.400 Yeah.

00:32:58.740 and you testified both yesterday and in response to questions from Mr. Champ this morning about

00:33:12.340 the deal that the exchange of letters that you engaged in with Mayor Watson and as I understand

00:33:20.960 the broad strokes um he sent a letter to your team with the assistance of mr wilson um you sent a

00:33:31.460 letter back or a letter was sent back in your name right yes ma'am and let's pull up that letter

00:33:37.080 it's uh hrf six zeros four five it is entrapment tamara is not falling for it at all

00:33:45.600 while we're waiting or it's there but while we're waiting for that um why did the letter

00:33:55.500 go in your name do you know I was president of the board of directors at that time okay

00:34:00.540 and the letter that's written in your name um if we just go down to the sorry a little too far

00:34:10.260 Third paragraph starts, we have made a plan.

00:34:14.240 And you write, or the letter says, we have made a plan to consolidate our best, our protest efforts around Parliament Hill.

00:34:21.420 We will be working hard over the next 24 hours to get buy-in from the truckers.

00:34:26.840 We hope to start repositioning our trucks on Monday.

00:34:30.900 And that's worded that way, because at that point, the best that you could offer the mayor was efforts to get buy-in from the truckers, right?

00:34:39.400 Well, we needed to go out and speak to them and talk to them about what we thought was going to be a good idea, yes.

00:34:46.000 Right. And after these letters were released publicly, we heard from Mr. Dichter in his testimony, and I believe you testified that you knew at the time from him that he had received many, many, many reactions on social media from those who were unhappy with this deal, right?

00:35:10.360 Yes.

00:35:10.520 Yeah. And you also were aware that Pat King had immediately put out his own messaging undermining this deal, right?

00:35:20.880 Yes.

00:35:21.400 and it was important to you I take it to make clear that what had been agreed to

00:35:34.120 was nothing more than moving the trucks out of the residential neighborhoods right it was a step one

00:35:42.720 that's how I viewed it it was it was progress it was the more progress than we'd seen since we

00:35:48.500 we arrived. You, at that time, would not have put your name on any letter that agreed to a meeting

00:35:57.940 if it meant you had to force protesters to pack up, end their protest, and go home, right?

00:36:06.000 Sorry, can you repeat that? Force? Maybe I'll do it a little differently. Yeah, maybe you should.

00:36:12.480 The understanding you had with Mayor Watson was that you were going to make best efforts to help get the trucks out of the residential neighbourhoods.

00:36:21.060 Yes.

00:36:21.600 And then he would sit down with you for a meeting.

00:36:24.220 Yes.

00:36:26.900 You were not going to agree to a meeting if it meant you had to tell all those truckers, get out of Ottawa, end your protest, go home.

00:36:37.320 sorry can you repeat that again please you did not and you would not have agreed to a meeting

00:36:47.080 with the mayor if the condition for that meeting was that you and other leaders would have to tell

00:36:56.080 the protesters get out of ottawa go home end your protest well that would have been something that

00:37:03.560 we would have had to talk about that's well what if

00:37:08.280 this deal you remember um mr wilson uh drafted up the freedom manifest that was going to be used

00:37:21.380 to help communicate to the truckers what exactly um they were being asked to do and what the deal

00:37:28.040 was with the mayor right um and so let's pull that up that's hrf four zeros one two eight five

00:37:36.620 the further she goes in this line of questioning the worse it becomes for her

00:37:42.860 the lawyer this is a document you had reviewed and um you agreed with at the time tamara looks

00:37:48.640 like she's playing with her and uh in the fourth paragraph what you're communicating here is we

00:37:55.980 have to stay in Ottawa for the long haul to reach our destination. Just like we do every day with

00:38:03.280 our routing logistics, we have to plan for the road ahead. Yes. And that's what you and Freedom

00:38:10.840 Corp were saying to explain the deal to the protesters, that going along with what was

00:38:17.700 being asked, moving those trucks out of the residential core to other areas in Ottawa

00:38:22.180 was a step necessary to make sure

00:38:25.560 you could continue your protest for the long haul, correct?

00:38:29.160 Yes, we definitely would have loved to have stayed

00:38:32.200 and continued to protest peacefully.

00:38:35.940 Thank you. Those are my questions.

00:38:39.020 Thank you.

00:38:40.240 Next is the Ottawa Police Service.

00:38:46.300 That was terrible.

00:38:48.320 Well, good for Tamara and us.

00:38:50.440 bad for that government lawyer. That was awful. Let's see what the Ottawa Police have to say now.

00:38:56.020 Good morning, Commissioner. Good morning, Ms. Leach. My name is David Michikowski. I'm a lawyer

00:39:00.140 for the Ottawa Police. Good morning. You've been very clear in your evidence that it was

00:39:11.340 your intent to plan a peaceful protest, correct? Correct. And that was very important to you as

00:39:18.900 one of the organizers yes and you did not plan to disrupt the lives of ottawa residents or

00:39:25.800 businesses no and you obviously consistent with that obviously didn't plan to break bylaws honk

00:39:34.360 your horns continuously defecate on people's lawns harass people or block emergency lanes

00:39:41.100 that wasn't the plan was it i did none of those things and it wasn't the plan was it as one of

00:39:47.140 the organizers you wouldn't have been in favor of condoning that kind of activity would you no

00:39:52.940 and because it wasn't your plan and you in fact had a code of conduct you wouldn't have expected

00:40:03.180 the police to turn the convoy away when they came to Ottawa would you no they were excellent to deal

00:40:11.260 with right from the start um and if that had happened and none of the trucks were allowed

00:40:17.660 in we've heard from opp witnesses that that likely at that point would not have deterred the convoy

00:40:25.100 because some had driven from very far away is that fair if we would have been told that we

00:40:32.020 couldn't have driven up here i i don't believe that we would have we would have found alternative

00:40:37.560 places, I guess. I'm saying that if when you got here on the 28th and the 29th, the city was

00:40:44.440 barricaded and you couldn't go anywhere, the OPP witness indicated that that wouldn't have

00:40:51.080 turned the truckers away because they'd come pretty far for this. I don't know how to even

00:40:58.220 answer that. Are you suggesting they would have broken through the barricades? How could we have

00:41:02.440 in that. And no one from the convoy organizers, to your knowledge, was on social media before

00:41:10.720 the convoy encouraging antisocial behavior? Not to my knowledge. Right. And you've seen

00:41:17.620 the Lawton book about the Freedom Convoy? I have, yes. And in his book, he says that

00:41:24.800 the convoy organizers did not intend to be on residential streets. Yes. And you would

00:41:31.460 agree with that i would agree with that but in fact that is what happened there was some

00:41:37.260 residential streets that had lots of trucks on them yes sir there were staging areas uh but they

00:41:43.100 were too far away from parliament and people wanted to be closer correct a lot of them did

00:41:48.480 want to be closer but there was also trucks that were out there too in those locations yes

00:41:53.360 and you've been very clear in your the affidavit you filed in court that there were truckers who

00:42:01.400 came from all over yes sir and you indicated um specifically in that affidavit which is that we

00:42:09.320 don't need to call it up but for the record it's jcf0012 in paragraph two and three that you did

00:42:16.700 not control the truckers those are your words yes no we didn't they're all human beings

00:42:25.100 I don't control anyone, sir.

00:42:29.100 I open up a dialogue with them and listen to me.

00:42:31.100 You're agreeing with me.

00:42:32.100 I didn't control anyone.

00:42:34.100 I'm sorry?

00:42:35.100 I did not control anyone.

00:42:37.100 You didn't control the truckers?

00:42:39.100 No.

00:42:40.100 And Superintendent Drummond attended a meeting he's heard with some of your representatives on the 13th of February.

00:42:50.100 That was after the date of your letter with the mayor.

00:42:53.100 Those were on the 12th, correct?

00:42:55.100 The meeting? Oh, yeah, sorry, the initial meeting was, I believe, Friday. And so, yes, correct.

00:43:02.360 Okay. And so the agreement with the mayor was reached on the 12th of February?

00:43:08.840 I believe so.

00:43:09.980 And then we saw that there was a meeting on the 13th that I believe Mr. Wilson may have attended with the mayor's office.

00:43:17.220 Yes, I believe so.

00:43:17.840 office and uh superintendent drummond records in his notes and again i'll give you the reference

00:43:25.680 but i in the interest of time i won't call it up but it's ops let her answer the question five five

00:43:32.800 at page 47 he's just the barreling through organizers at the representatives at that

00:43:39.520 meeting explained that they did not control rito sussex i wasn't at that meeting but you're aware

00:43:47.600 that that was said at that, okay.

00:43:50.480 And that your representatives also said

00:43:53.280 they didn't control Coventry Road.

00:43:56.980 Yes.

00:43:58.440 And they also said they could not be certain

00:44:02.180 if the truckers there would move.

00:44:05.280 That's correct, I believe, yep.

00:44:06.900 And even for those groups whom you did have some control

00:44:10.640 or influence on, I guess influence,

00:44:13.680 we've heard that truckers are pretty independent-minded people.

00:44:17.600 Yes, they are.

00:44:18.240 They can't be made to do what they don't want to do.

00:44:21.940 I guess so.

00:44:23.180 And in addition to not controlling the truckers,

00:44:27.220 you also did not have control, obviously,

00:44:30.340 of the protesters on the street

00:44:32.080 and whether they could block trucks moving, for instance.

00:44:36.120 We didn't have control, no,

00:44:38.320 but we worked very hard and very diligently

00:44:40.740 with the gentlemen and women that were down there

00:44:43.520 to open up a dialogue and assist them in opening up that intersection.

00:44:50.360 And in fact, we heard about a previous effort by Mr. Wilson

00:44:54.580 and Ms. Chipia on February 10th at Rideau and Sussex

00:44:58.180 where police were going to move the barriers so trucks could move,

00:45:02.700 but the crowd dynamics got in the way

00:45:05.320 and the crowd stopped the trucks from moving

00:45:07.820 because they didn't trust the police, correct?

00:45:11.140 I was down there also, yes.

00:45:12.640 You were there as well.

00:45:13.520 And so you saw that and you agreed that that would be dangerous then?

00:45:17.660 I didn't feel like it was dangerous.

00:45:20.400 There was a large crowd presence there and they were,

00:45:25.060 I think they were feeling that they had been lied to by the police.

00:45:30.820 There was a lot of mistrust there.

00:45:34.640 And they were down there singing O Canada and chanting freedom.

00:45:39.920 And you agreed it would be dangerous to move the trucks in that scenario?

00:45:43.520 because the crowd swelled.

00:45:47.020 There was a lot of people there, yes, yes.

00:45:49.260 And we have heard that notice was given to the demonstrators

00:45:54.600 in advance that they would have to leave.

00:45:57.560 You heard that evidence?

00:45:59.340 Which, what are you referring to?

00:46:01.160 You've heard quite a bit of that evidence

00:46:02.980 that demonstrators were told to leave.

00:46:05.640 I have never been told to leave.

00:46:07.100 Oh, you didn't know that.

00:46:08.180 Okay.

00:46:08.960 You're familiar with the PLTs, correct?

00:46:11.860 I am now.

00:46:13.200 I'm going to show you some PLT logs.

00:46:16.480 And you understand that the PLTs were a liaison with the protesters?

00:46:24.280 Excuse me, yes, sir.

00:46:26.100 And would communicate with them?

00:46:29.760 Yes, sir.

00:46:31.160 Okay, I'm going to call it up.

00:46:33.340 I'm not going to start by taking you directly to it,

00:46:36.260 but I will take you to a particular passage.

00:46:38.620 The document is OPS-30-14053.

00:46:49.900 And so while that's being called up, Ms. Leach, those are PLT logs as of February 25th.

00:46:57.400 And I can take you through them in detail and show you.

00:47:00.880 But in order to save some time, I'm going to attempt to summarize what they say

00:47:05.860 on the issue of notice that was given to the truckers and protesters

00:47:09.420 before the public order unit moved in to clear the intersection.

00:47:14.400 And so what I see in those is on February, there were various zones in the city.

00:47:21.520 And I see on February 16th, the PLTs attended SJAM and gave those present the letter

00:47:29.660 and were told by protesters that the letter wasn't legal

00:47:34.820 because it didn't have a signature.

00:47:37.300 Sounds sort of similar to what you said.

00:47:39.780 I'm sorry.

00:47:40.600 Just excuse me a minute.

00:47:41.920 Yes.

00:47:42.960 If my friend could actually take the witness

00:47:45.080 to the part in the document that states that

00:47:47.480 so that we could see it,

00:47:48.300 I don't know if that's what it says or not.

00:47:49.760 I apologize.

00:47:51.220 I will take her to it where it's necessary.

00:47:53.300 If she doesn't agree, she doesn't agree.

00:47:55.180 That's fine.

00:47:55.700 I don't wish to use my 15 minutes

00:47:57.780 by going through the document in detail.

00:48:00.460 If she can't agree, I will take her to portions of it.

00:48:03.440 Sure, let's do that.

00:48:04.300 Take me to portions, please.

00:48:06.200 So, PLT say they attended SJAM, and they were told by the truckers that it wasn't legal, that notice, and it wasn't significant.

00:48:17.460 Do you know about that?

00:48:18.460 I wasn't there, sir.

00:48:19.760 Okay.

00:48:20.140 Do you have any reason to deny that occurred, as noted in the PLT logs?

00:48:23.780 I have no reason to.

00:48:25.560 Okay.

00:48:25.980 And I understand from those logs that the next day, on February 17th, they attended again and delivered the message again.

00:48:35.580 And they attended again on the 19th and delivered it again to those who remained.

00:48:42.500 Any reason to deny that that occurred?

00:48:46.400 I was not there. As a matter of fact, by the 19th, I was already in jail.

00:48:50.500 Okay. And so you weren't on the 17th, were you?

00:48:57.920 I was arrested that day, yes.

00:48:59.300 Right. And I'm pretty confident, because you were one of the organizers,

00:49:03.620 that the truckers were communicating with you and telling you what was happening.

00:49:08.580 From SJAM?

00:49:10.480 All over the city.

00:49:12.360 No, not necessarily.

00:49:13.860 And then in Zone 2, and this is on page 7 of the same document, Mr. Marazzo met the PLT on the 16th, and the message was delivered to him, and then it was delivered on Wellington Street, and the PLTs described hostile and screaming at the police, and the police then had to withdraw due to the hostility.

00:49:39.940 Any reason to disagree with that?

00:49:42.620 I was not present there, sir.

00:49:44.380 Any reason to disagree with it?

00:49:46.380 Sir, with respect, my friend is asking a witness who has no knowledge of something whether or not she disagrees with a document of which she didn't draft, of which was drafted by the police,

00:49:58.240 and then asking if there's any reason to disagree with something she has no knowledge of.

00:50:02.360 That's not a question, sir.

00:50:03.380 Yes.

00:50:03.560 It's permissible.

00:50:04.180 It's not relevant.

00:50:04.780 this witness well this was all going on was in jail without any form of ability

00:50:10.960 to access phones and texts etc it's not an appropriate line of questioning the

00:50:17.900 witness can answer if she was aware of it or not she wasn't I don't I think

00:50:21.460 it's quite proper cross-examination but I'm not sure it's very helpful in the

00:50:26.860 sense that I'm not sure what you're getting at she can neither confirm nor

00:50:32.140 deny because she has no knowledge right to say can she has she any i mean any the the questions

00:50:39.660 relating to whether she received communications about any of this may have some relevance and

00:50:45.740 she's answered that so um well i mean i go ahead but you're in my submission it is highly relevant

00:50:54.280 because the witness said that no notice was given and i'm going to suggest to you miss leach

00:51:01.800 that the PLTs went to every single site

00:51:05.160 and gave notice to everyone.

00:51:07.360 And you're saying you didn't know that.

00:51:09.280 Is that right?

00:51:09.780 If you say so.

00:51:11.360 Okay.

00:51:15.280 If you say so.

00:51:16.620 I'm going to ask that we turn up OPS 12205, page 60.

00:51:23.760 you know these these opposition lawyers they look so frustrated guys they every single one of them

00:51:35.800 they can't crack her they can't crack her because she's being honest and they are they are lying

00:51:43.120 that is it i'm going to tell you something and maybe you'll remember this miss leach

00:51:47.920 PLT Peace, Jim and OPS PLT Meg attended Swiss Hotel and met with Leach and Bulford and O'Connor.

00:51:59.700 Message was delivered and explained.

00:52:02.460 All parties were upset and Leach was crying in regards to how unfair she felt this action was.

00:52:09.440 PLT advised them to depart and message this out to others.

00:52:14.240 All parties were upset when it was explained

00:52:16.580 that people who are helping logistics

00:52:18.600 can also be charged and held accountable.

00:52:22.180 All understood messaging.

00:52:24.060 They do feel that this message will harden participants' resolve

00:52:27.940 as they feel that it is a tactic of dictatorial government.

00:52:32.280 Suggestion was made to have children leave the red zone.

00:52:36.980 Seems pretty clear to me that you were given the message, right?

00:52:40.020 i was never told i needed to leave so the plt's uh that's fabricated i remember when they came in

00:52:51.040 and we had the discussion or um and i as it says became very upset i believe i said something to

00:52:59.600 the effect of i cannot believe that you're about to do this to your own people we were there

00:53:04.060 protesting peacefully and i the rest of that interaction i i was upset and i was crying and i

00:53:11.900 right you were upset and you were crying because it was over and they told you to leave

00:53:18.060 i was upset and i was crying because of what they were proposing to do to canadian citizens

00:53:23.420 and they told you to depart and they told you to message that to others

00:53:27.660 i don't recall them telling me to message that to others or that i was that i needed to leave

00:53:32.060 I'm sorry, you don't remember?

00:53:33.040 It was suggested.

00:53:34.540 It seems to me your memory is selective.

00:53:37.160 When I take you to something that implicates you, you have no memory of it.

00:53:40.920 Sir, that's inflammatory, and if my friend wants to take the stand and become a witness and give opinions about credibility, that's fine.

00:53:47.760 But that's not a proper question, sir.

00:53:51.520 I'll move on.

00:53:54.220 You would agree, you've talked about the fact that you didn't know the truckers or control them, and you didn't police them.

00:54:01.400 I did not, no.

00:54:02.280 You weren't surveilling them?

00:54:03.840 No.

00:54:04.480 You didn't know their past?

00:54:05.700 You didn't have intelligence information about all of them?

00:54:09.380 I am not an intelligence expert now.

00:54:11.440 Right.

00:54:11.800 And you would agree with me that there may be other individuals or organizations

00:54:16.400 that would have more intelligence information about some of the protesters than you did?

00:54:22.640 Such as?

00:54:25.380 Would you agree with that?

00:54:27.100 Could you ask me a question again, sir?

00:54:28.840 Yeah.

00:54:29.020 I said you would agree with me that there may be other individuals or organizations that would have more intelligence information about some of the protesters than you did.

00:54:39.800 Yes.

00:54:41.100 And you would agree with me as well that you have no background or formal training in crowd dynamics and what can incite a crowd to take action.

00:54:50.660 I don't know.

00:54:51.660 Or how to prevent a crowd from escalating or preventing violence.

00:54:57.240 No, I don't.

00:54:58.080 And so just two more areas, if I may just have two more minutes, Commissioner.

00:55:05.660 HRF 401510, if I may have that document, Mr. Clerk, please.

00:55:21.540 Is an email from Eva Chipyuk.

00:55:24.260 Eva Chipyuk was one of the convoy lawyers.

00:55:27.660 Yes, sir.

00:55:28.080 And so this is on February 15th.

00:55:32.520 She indicates, and for some reason we have not been given the attachment,

00:55:37.440 although we've been told that solicitor-client privilege was waived,

00:55:40.720 but in the email it says,

00:55:43.200 I've drafted something on the right to protest

00:55:45.440 and have taken a very cautious approach

00:55:48.140 because I don't exactly know what the emergency's orders are,

00:55:52.000 but it's my understanding that they can limit the right to protest.

00:55:55.160 And while that can be challenged in court,

00:55:57.760 At the moment, people who do not comply may be arrested.

00:56:02.620 I think if we're advising people, it's important to let them know all the risks they're facing

00:56:07.500 and let them make their own decision.

00:56:11.280 You've seen that from one of your lawyers?

00:56:13.920 I've seen it since in these hearings.

00:56:16.660 So, two possibilities.

00:56:19.260 Either your lawyers didn't give that advice to you, or they did give that advice to you.

00:56:24.680 Sir, there's individuals cc'd or that emails too.

00:56:29.700 She's not in it.

00:56:30.740 And then the next day, or just in two days, she's not in it.

00:56:33.820 Like, you should first ask her if she got the email.

00:56:37.700 God, sorry.

00:56:39.240 I'm sorry.

00:56:39.740 My friend will have a chance to examine.

00:56:41.520 This is quite proper cross-examination.

00:56:44.580 I think it would be helpful to know if she received the email before you questioned her on it.

00:56:50.740 Okay.

00:56:51.060 I will get to that, but there's a reason why I'm asking it in the way I have.

00:56:56.820 Yeah, the reason is you're trying to trap her.

00:56:58.700 Either your lawyer didn't give you that advice, or you did get that advice from someone.

00:57:04.920 I did not receive this email, and I don't recall.

00:57:09.020 As I said, there was a lot of chaos.

00:57:11.560 We had a lot of conversations.

00:57:13.300 I can't recall.

00:57:14.900 Okay, so you don't recall whether your lawyer gave you that email or not?

00:57:19.360 She just said that.

00:57:20.240 I don't believe I've seen it before.

00:57:22.000 Okay.

00:57:26.440 And I understand that you've been charged with several criminal code offences, correct?

00:57:32.300 Mischief, instructing justice, counselling others to commit mischief, intimidation, correct?

00:57:37.360 That's correct.

00:57:37.980 And I understand you understand that the purpose of this inquiry is not to determine your guilt or innocence, correct?

00:57:46.380 Of course not.

00:57:47.180 And you've received disclosure of documents from the Crown, or partial disclosure, I believe you said?

00:57:53.020 Yes, I have.

00:57:54.080 And you understand, because the criminal process is ongoing, there's a principle, a case called WAG.

00:58:02.720 And so as a result of that, you understand that I am not allowed to rely on documents that are part of the criminal brief, the Crown brief, in this proceeding.

00:58:12.080 You understand that, correct?

00:58:13.200 If you say so. Again, this is a new world to me.

00:58:17.180 And so you understand that if that's the case, I may not be able to challenge some of the statements you've said.

00:58:24.760 Sir, my friend's arguing a principle of law.

00:58:28.620 I am not familiar with this system, so.

00:58:32.060 Okay. If I may just ask one final question then.

00:58:35.420 You talked about concerns for safety, correct?

00:58:38.520 Yes.

00:58:39.220 And that would include concerns for officer safety?

00:58:43.120 Absolutely.

00:58:43.620 And so we've heard evidence of police officers being swarmed by protesters,

00:58:49.160 and I assume that you would be concerned about that.

00:58:53.280 I never witnessed that, but I would be concerned.

00:58:57.060 Right.

00:58:58.580 But you don't have sufficient control over the truckers or the protesters to prevent that, if that's occurring, right?

00:59:04.420 I don't control anyone, sir.

00:59:06.100 Thank you very much for answering my questions.

00:59:10.900 Thank you.

00:59:11.640 Okay, next is a counsel for former Chief Sloley.

00:59:27.640 Thank you, Commissioner. Ms. Leach, Tom Curry for former Chief Sloley.

00:59:30.640 Good morning, Mr. Curry. I just have a few questions.

00:59:32.640 Yes, sir.

00:59:33.640 Can I just show you the one thing my friend for the Ottawa Police Service was speaking to you about,

00:59:39.640 so that you have the full picture.

00:59:41.960 Yes, sir.

00:59:42.440 Could I ask, please, Mr. Registrar of the witness,

00:59:44.900 to be shown HRF 401520.

00:59:50.800 I think this is the attachment that was referred to.

00:59:53.480 Is this guy the other lawyer's brother?

00:59:55.740 Just in case this helps your recollection,

00:59:58.780 what is being projected now is a document with the title

01:00:03.040 The Right to Protest.

01:00:05.560 Have you seen it?

01:00:06.620 I appreciate you're going to take a second to look at it,

01:00:08.640 But just let us know, please, if you have seen that memorandum before.

01:00:12.260 All Canadians have the right to gather in peace.

01:00:13.920 I don't recall seeing this attachment.

01:00:16.000 No, sir.

01:00:17.360 And I gather from the record that it is the attachment to which Ms. Chipyuk's email,

01:00:27.000 or that was along with Ms. Chipyuk's email,

01:00:29.620 and refers to the limits of the right to protest that were expressed in that cover.

01:00:37.700 But that's not something that you saw or heard of.

01:00:40.380 I don't believe so, no.

01:00:42.140 It does not look familiar.

01:00:43.460 Thank you.

01:00:44.040 Just a couple of things, and if I could.

01:00:45.700 One of the things that the Commissioner has to consider is recommendations about dealing with the Emergencies Act

01:00:54.580 and presumably perhaps even the right to protest and some of the limits that we've heard about.

01:01:01.240 Could I just have a couple of additional facts from you?

01:01:03.840 um you you and mr barber met i think you told us on the 24th of january to begin the trip

01:01:11.340 yes that is correct here in and you left from red cliff red cliff alberta yes and

01:01:16.240 arriving in arnprior the 29th we got into arnprior the evening of the 28th i believe

01:01:23.420 the friday evening i believe that was the 28th 28th ottawa the 29th yes sir and what i'm interested

01:01:30.680 in knowing is of course first of all that the numbers of protesters exceeded your expectations

01:01:38.540 is that yes wildly exceeded yes and you you i think you told us that you imagined that you

01:01:47.040 might be able to raise twenty thousand dollars uh for this for this convoy and of course the

01:01:53.380 the financial commitments that you garnered were far in excess of that but then in terms of the

01:02:00.220 the the numbers of protesters who you you considered and I presume Mr. Barber considered

01:02:07.680 in his conversations with you were not in the numbers that filled up the streets of Ottawa in

01:02:13.860 the way that you found them on the 29th is that fair oh sorry could you repeat that sure that

01:02:18.640 your expectation when you got to Ottawa you saw far more people than you believed would be in

01:02:24.320 attendance yes and am i right that you were not the person primarily or even at all communicating

01:02:33.240 with police about how many people were going to attend i i don't believe so i know the road

01:02:40.120 captains were in constant communication with with law enforcement though got it and that and insofar

01:02:47.080 as you know the the road captains would have had some information about the numbers of of members

01:02:56.040 of their individual convoys that they had but they would not have had a picture of the entirety of it

01:03:01.320 because people were coming from far and wide that fair we tried every day to get to get solid numbers

01:03:08.440 and like with people joining and leaving you know some people would travel with us for 200 kilometers

01:03:14.440 Some people would travel across the province and turn around.

01:03:17.540 It was very challenging, and as much as we tried to get a count, it was next to impossible.

01:03:23.880 So much so that when you got here, as much as you tried to understand how many would be there, you missed the mark.

01:03:33.720 Yes.

01:03:34.700 Now, then, just a couple of other things.

01:03:36.920 In terms of the company, the not-for-profit, it was incorporated January 30th, I understand?

01:03:42.720 I think it was the 30th or the 31st, but it was right around there, yes, sir.

01:03:46.840 And then I think in the record, the bylaws that organized it were prepared by February 3rd.

01:03:53.120 So that was a, that, the company and the, and the governance model that you had imposed was evolving only once you got here.

01:04:01.540 Yes, yes.

01:04:02.960 Then finally, in terms of the, the description, I mean, you called, you, you and Mr. Wilson have both called the scene chaotic.

01:04:10.940 can you tell the commissioner when did you when did you first appreciate the sense of chaos that

01:04:20.420 you have described was it when you arrived on the 29th it was sitting on my kitchen table when we

01:04:25.540 were organizing and because i had messages coming in and emails coming in and phone calls and

01:04:31.400 it was uh it was um very busy times right very busy times and so by the time you got here and

01:04:40.760 saw the situation in ottawa was it chaotic at that time as well uh there were times when it

01:04:48.080 was chaotic as you referred to there was a lot of people here um when we got into town i just saw

01:04:54.080 a lot of smiles and a lot of flags and people hugging each other but there was yeah so i don't

01:05:03.300 necessarily mean chaotic all the time is a negative term but it was you know a mixture of both

01:05:08.760 Understood. Just one last thing. I think one of the questions that you were asked about, what would have happened as you approached Ottawa if the city had been, I think the language was, blocked or barricaded?

01:05:22.680 Having regard to the numbers of people coming far and wide and your inability to control them, is the likelihood that those convoy protesters would have just made their protest where the blockades were?

01:05:33.660 Again, that's kind of a what-if question that I can't really speak to.

01:05:41.760 Yeah, I don't know.

01:05:43.480 Fair enough. Thank you, Commissioner.

01:05:45.260 Thank you, sir.

01:05:46.340 Thank you.

01:05:48.940 Next is the City of Ottawa.

01:05:54.520 Alyssa Tompkins for the City.

01:05:56.340 The City has no questions for this witness.

01:05:59.080 Thank you.

01:06:00.380 Ontario Provincial Police.

01:06:03.660 Good morning, Commissioner. The OPPP have no questions. Thank you.

01:06:08.320 Democracy Fund, JCCF, Citizens for Freedom.

01:06:23.740 Good morning, Mr. Commissioner, Ms. Litch.

01:06:26.220 Good morning.

01:06:26.540 Mr. Antoine D'Aille, Council to Citizens for Freedom, representing peaceful protesters in Windsor.

01:06:31.320 One question, I'll bet one.

01:06:33.660 Ms. Litch, in yesterday's testimony, you indicated that at the beginning you were tasked with some of the fundraising

01:06:40.400 and that you thought that a fundraising goal of $200,000 was way too much

01:06:45.500 and that you expected maybe $20,000 in donations. Is that correct?

01:06:49.700 Yes.

01:06:50.960 And that you certainly did not expect the level of financial support that the convoy did receive over that period of time. Is that correct?

01:06:58.380 I think we were all quite shocked about that, yes.

01:07:00.640 Perfect. Do you agree that many Canadians who were unable or otherwise unwilling to go out and protest in the streets instead donated to the convoy as a tangible demonstration of their opposition to the government mandates?

01:07:16.380 I do, and I remember saying, I think it was maybe to Mr. Wilson, that it wasn't even about the money. It was about the statement behind the money.

01:07:27.520 right and so is it also your understanding that contributors to a go fund me campaign may leave a

01:07:34.000 message of support when they donate yes and did you review some of those statements of support

01:07:38.860 very briefly i i did scroll through some yes but so then based on your experience would it be fair

01:07:45.960 then to characterize the act of donating to the convoys fundraising efforts as a form of political

01:07:51.480 expression I would and encouragement and support I think as it grew people wanted to be a part of

01:08:00.780 it in in any way that they could show support and that was one way that people that couldn't attend

01:08:06.120 or be on an overpass or drive to the side of the highway were able to support understood

01:08:12.260 and and is it true that the GoFundMe campaign for the convoy was active for less than a month

01:08:18.780 yes yes it was and were you ever made aware that the convoys fundraising campaign in that

01:08:28.460 limited amount of time enjoyed more donations from more canadians than the liberal party of

01:08:34.680 canada did in either 2020 or 2021 i believe somebody had mentioned that

01:08:40.460 we're talking about large amounts of money here right yes and are you aware of any other

01:08:47.900 grassroots fundraising campaign which has raised comparable amounts of money since march of 2022

01:08:53.080 not to my knowledge but i haven't also looked any up fair enough yes

01:08:59.080 and lastly we heard about some of the conditions and restrictions that you are now subject to while

01:09:06.840 wait for your trial next year in addition to those conditions how many days have you spent in jail

01:09:13.720 since you started fundraising for the convoy 49 days in total those are my questions thank you

01:09:20.760 thank you okay um and uh now for the convoy organizers sir i'm wondering if we can take

01:09:29.720 the morning break a little early i have to talk to three separate lawyers behind me about certain

01:09:34.840 areas of examination uh if i we could take the morning break i'd be very much appreciative

01:09:42.040 seems a little early brendan only if you make the commitment to have a focused

01:09:48.680 questioning so that it's useful use of the break absolutely sir okay well we'll take

01:09:54.760 the break early then um take 15 minutes please the commission is in recess for 15 minutes

01:10:04.840 okay so what do you think i okay let me ask you guys a question and this is something i haven't

01:10:12.280 even brought up yet and i've seen it talked about here and there what do you think about justice

01:10:19.420 ruleau and this is an honest question i want you to answer as honestly as you possibly can we know

01:10:28.040 that his background is, he's donated to the liberals in the past, but that was the 80s

01:10:35.760 and the 90s. He was appointed as a judge by the Liberal Party. I think it was Jean Chrétien

01:10:41.640 who appointed him as a judge back in the 90s. He's been retired for some time, and he was

01:10:48.500 brought out of retirement by the Liberal Party to oversee this commission. And he willingly

01:10:57.220 said yes so what is your what are your thoughts on him my thoughts are that I've been impressed

01:11:10.480 by him he seems fair he seems reasonable he doesn't put up with any bullshit pardon my

01:11:15.600 language you know when it comes to people acting out in the gallery

01:11:22.900 fair and honest a lot of people are saying balance reasonable amanda says he's a liberal

01:11:40.600 judge i just pointed that out but i mean aside from any political affiliation

01:11:45.660 i mean look here's the thing about this commission and i want you guys to be absolutely clear on this

01:11:54.060 okay and again my opinion but the outcome of this does not matter the outcome of this is whatever it

01:12:03.620 is what we're getting right now is going to swing things in our favor never mind the left-wing

01:12:13.560 Marxist corporate media. It doesn't matter what they say because people have stopped believing

01:12:18.280 them. And I think more and more and more people are stopping with their belief of what they say

01:12:25.880 because they've been exposed so many times now, especially if they actually have to testify at

01:12:31.240 these hearings in the next couple of weeks. But what we've heard this week is raw emotional

01:12:37.340 testimony from several of the convoy organizers. And all we're seeing here is their love of

01:12:47.580 this country and their belief that these mandates were overreaching. And all they wanted

01:12:55.100 to do was speak to the leadership of this country, which they were denied. We're seeing

01:13:02.920 these lawyers for the ottawa police and for the government of canada and and for the citizens

01:13:08.140 coalition of uh downtown ottawa try to you know upend testimony or catch somebody in some sort of

01:13:17.360 you know lie or omission and they're not doing it it's it's not happened i have seen some left-wing

01:13:27.340 corporate media headlines that have been so misleading it's not even funny especially from

01:13:34.580 global and ctv but what we're getting here is the honest truth because this is being live streamed

01:13:43.640 across the country on several different platforms even the media is doing it

01:13:48.700 um cpac uh the public order emergency commission dot ca several independent

01:13:56.740 media like myself are doing this um so people are seeing this many people are watching this

01:14:07.100 what i can't wait for is the liberal ministers cabinet ministers to take the stand in a couple

01:14:13.840 of weeks that should be absolutely fascinating given the evidence we've already heard the

01:14:19.220 testimony we've already heard i have no idea if they're going to be able to get up there and keep

01:14:24.500 lying or if they're going to if they're going to use a fall guy or if they're going to try and

01:14:31.200 invoke um cabinet confidence like doug ford has in ontario and i'm not sure if that's been ruled

01:14:38.180 upon doug ford has been compelled he's been subpoenaed by this commission to testify but

01:14:43.860 he's said no and he's fighting it in court and i'm not sure if the decision has come down yet

01:14:48.600 but it better come down fast because he's supposed to testify on monday or tuesday of next week

01:14:53.140 which you can be sure i will live stream if that is the case if he does testify has anybody heard

01:15:00.400 anyway the results of this won't matter you know for us i mean if justice rulo

01:15:11.940 finds that the emergencies act was invoked unlawfully that'll be great

01:15:16.400 but it doesn't matter because there's no real penalty for trudeau in terms of legal right he's

01:15:24.760 not going to be fined he's not going to be imprisoned he's not going to be deposed none

01:15:29.680 of that's going to happen the only thing that will happen is public opinion and i know this

01:15:35.920 guy has been able to slither through all kinds of scandals the blackface the we scandal uh snc

01:15:42.280 lavaland the diddling the alleged diddling you know all of these things but can he escape this

01:15:51.340 even the most staunch lefty columnist for the marxist corporate media

01:15:59.680 would have to write they would have to write a column that says this was bad for Trudeau

01:16:06.680 I can't see any way around it the emergencies act for some horns in downtown Ottawa come on

01:16:15.060 so what we're getting here guys and and the reason I say this is because I see all kinds

01:16:20.680 of comments that roll past I say what's the relevance of this line of questioning aside

01:16:26.980 from the fact that some of these lawyers are trying to get things on the record they can

01:16:30.840 use going forward in their lawsuits, there isn't any relevance to it.

01:16:40.280 It's already, as far as many people are concerned, it's already been decided that Trudeau invoked

01:16:47.640 this act illegally.

01:16:48.920 We've heard the testimony.

01:16:50.480 We've seen enough.

01:16:52.240 It doesn't need to go on anymore.

01:16:53.720 But what we're getting here now is our side of the story being told, and that is huge.

01:17:02.040 So coming up in the next session, Chris Deering.

01:17:05.600 Chris was one of the veterans who was beaten badly by police in downtown Ottawa.

01:17:16.780 And so he's set to testify next, after Tamara.

01:17:22.740 And then we're going to see Jeremy McKenzie,

01:17:25.460 raging dissident from his jail cell in Saskatchewan.

01:17:30.160 And then it's going to be Daniel Bulford,

01:17:33.880 who is a former RCMP.

01:17:36.260 Now, I'm not sure what they're going to do with Bulford.

01:17:39.900 Probably try to paint him as a traitor.

01:17:43.900 As far as McKenzie,

01:17:45.300 they might try and paint him as a raging lunatic,

01:17:48.560 um white you know knuckle-dragging extremist with diagonal on but tom maratso was already

01:17:59.160 testified to that a couple of days ago what did tom say diagonal on is a joke diagonal on's mascot

01:18:05.820 was what a flying cocaine addicted time traveling goat and yet the corporate media and the government

01:18:16.460 that have latched on to this like it's some sort of deep-rooted right extremist right-wing

01:18:23.600 army, which is ridiculous. So guys, I'm waiting for the public hearings to resume.

01:18:36.120 I hope that you're not too disconcerted by the shakiness of the stream.

01:18:42.100 and i hope you stick with me for the rest of the day i'm going to hang in all day long here

01:18:50.220 okay all day long because i i am very curious to see what what gets said i am really happy

01:18:59.640 with the comments that we've been getting here i'm so happy that you guys are so engaged in all

01:19:05.380 of this uh but we need more we need more right now i see 1370 and i think that's great and i hope

01:19:13.900 that if there's you know 100 streams out there like this that you know that's not bad coverage

01:19:19.820 but we need more people need to see this people need to see the other thing about this is you know

01:19:27.280 this morning i got a couple of trolls and i know there was a troll that i blocked this morning in

01:19:30.920 the comments because he was being rude but i got a comment this morning from somebody

01:19:36.760 in saskatoon she said directly to me don't you believe in science oh my god

01:19:44.260 i mean you don't even know where to begin with people like that so what i've started doing is

01:19:54.340 just completely ignoring comments like that because they are so far behind in this race

01:20:01.900 that they think they're leading right and and it's it it blows my mind that there's so many

01:20:10.800 people who are so out of touch with what's been going on in the last couple of years and yet they

01:20:16.400 adhere to this government and media narrative that things are still bleak it's bad and and

01:20:22.900 there's a pandemic raging and we all need to be hiding in our basements and get six and seven

01:20:28.780 shots. And so those people, I call them the Branch Covidians for anybody who is new to the stream,

01:20:35.500 to the show, the Branch Covidians you can't reason with. It's the people in the middle,

01:20:40.520 the ones that know there is something going on, but are scared for whatever reason to speak up

01:20:45.800 about it those are the ones we can get okay uh from what i'm hearing right now the the hearings

01:20:53.060 are about to resume yeah brandon miller people have been referring to it's miller time

01:21:01.820 is going to be questioning tamara leach don't worry guys this will be friendly questioning

01:21:07.860 and then i guess after that what they're going to do is just continue right on usually there's

01:21:18.160 a break between witnesses but i guess they'll just continue right on because uh they just took their

01:21:23.400 break so sounds like a lot of commotion going on in the room right now wouldn't you love to

01:21:31.940 actually be there?

01:21:53.300 Oh, by the way, I did have a brief communication with Tamara this morning.

01:21:57.480 and she told me that she'd love to come on the show once all of this is over

01:22:02.740 and i was so flattered by that i couldn't even believe it i said yes absolutely she's got the

01:22:07.940 conditions right now where she can't go online in any way shape or form and her court case is

01:22:15.420 not going to be heard until next year she she testified to all of that yesterday

01:22:18.780 but when her conditions end

01:22:23.860 and she's allowed to speak publicly again

01:22:26.340 she'll be here on the show

01:22:28.140 and I would love to interview her

01:22:29.660 I think she is a Canadian hero

01:22:33.160 and she is so well spoken

01:22:34.980 and so big hearted

01:22:36.200 like really nice

01:22:37.200 just a nice gal

01:22:41.480 bill c27 digital security okay i'm gonna have to look into that thank you for that comment

01:22:57.960 the other thing about this show guys is is what i ask everybody to do at the beginning of every

01:23:07.980 show at eight o'clock central every weeknight is when they say hello tell us where you are watching

01:23:14.700 from because there could be somebody right across the street from you who really needs a friend

01:23:21.020 after all the isolation that we've experienced in the last couple of years and you don't know

01:23:28.320 that now but maybe you will right so go ahead and throw it up in the comments too hi i'm

01:23:36.000 Kimberly watching from Esteban, or Mary watching from Kenora, or Jeanette, Quebec, she says.

01:23:44.140 Darcy is watching from Vernon.

01:23:46.160 Phyllis from Kamloops.

01:23:48.340 Amber is in Paris, Ontario.

01:23:55.300 Remington Steel, ha, on the field near the U.S. border.

01:24:01.100 Fernie's watching from Washington State.

01:24:04.080 Who's in Medicine Hat?

01:24:06.000 world's largest teepees in medicine hat right

01:24:13.180 brenda's watching from winnipeg and shelly from cockney

01:24:18.100 louise from saint mary's ontario that's near london right

01:24:22.020 judy from judy ann sorry from bonneville

01:24:26.660 brian holt watching from denman island that is one of the most beautiful places in the country

01:24:32.440 My God, I've only been there once, but that was like 1988, but I remember it like it was last week.

01:24:44.220 Hello, Deborah from Rivers and Helen from Beckwith Township, shelves in Saskatoon.

01:24:52.440 Ace is watching from West Virginia.

01:24:54.560 Cool.

01:24:55.260 Don't forget, guys, share this out there.

01:24:57.500 Get it out.

01:24:58.400 People need to see this.

01:25:00.020 Amber is watching from Balder.

01:25:02.440 Bonnie from Zenon Park, Saskatchewan.

01:25:08.640 Florence from Bancroft, Ontario.

01:25:11.040 Hello.

01:25:15.020 Carrie from Speedy Creek.

01:25:19.180 Brenda from North Bay.

01:25:27.240 I'm sorry, I'm not going to try and pronounce any French names

01:25:30.020 unless I actually know I'm doing it right.

01:25:32.440 I do not want to insult anybody, anybody's name or anybody's town's name.

01:25:39.940 And I've done that in the past, and it just never works out well for me.

01:25:43.700 I wind up having to apologize.

01:25:46.680 Dan is in Calgary.

01:25:54.120 Samantha's in Guelph.

01:25:57.640 Looks like we're set to go.

01:25:58.900 I hear throat clearing.

01:26:02.440 Rhonda's watching from Iowa.

01:26:05.980 Hello.

01:26:08.620 And now they shut off the sound.

01:26:10.420 Come on.

01:26:13.700 Margo in Saskatoon.

01:26:15.440 Paul's watching in Blenheim, Ontario.

01:26:17.780 Brad's in Tisdale.

01:26:21.540 Tammy is watching in Arden.

01:26:23.040 If you guys are getting a closed caption on your screen,

01:26:28.340 that's coming from Facebook.

01:26:30.580 there's nothing that i can do about that i've tried to shut that off but there is no button

01:26:36.980 for that there's no function to shut it off for my end so it's just happening for you automatically

01:26:42.480 i'm not sure if you can shut it off on your end

01:26:45.760 um some of you might like it i don't know how many of you are just listening as opposed to

01:26:54.280 watching and listening that's always a question that's fascinated me like i wonder huh

01:27:00.200 Because this kind of a show, even the regular show I do at night, is set up for both.

01:27:05.540 It's set up for audio, and it's set up for audio and video.

01:27:09.660 And I'm an old radio guy, so I kind of do it like that intentionally.

01:27:15.340 Debra's watching from Shiloh.

01:27:21.480 Audrey says she's listening.

01:27:23.660 Yeah, because you guys have got things to do, right?

01:27:25.420 You're doing your daily chores, and you want to keep abreast of what's going on?

01:27:31.200 Diane says, no, I watch.

01:27:33.620 Carolyn watching and listening.

01:27:37.020 Hello, Alita in Cumberland. How are you?

01:27:39.600 Chris Allery.

01:27:41.280 Listening at work.

01:27:42.900 Yeah, that's what I thought.

01:27:45.200 Leslie's watching in St. Andrews.

01:27:48.640 Linda is listening while baking.

01:27:51.360 What are you making, Linda?

01:27:53.700 Making pie.

01:27:57.920 Karen says she's doing both.

01:28:00.200 rose may watching from new brunswick hello karen donnie from yarmouth nova scotia

01:28:09.840 junior says call in sick i can't come in i've got you know the vid

01:28:17.920 i got a cold man are you sure it's a cold maybe you should get tested

01:28:25.420 Hello, Cheryl and Leslie.

01:28:28.520 Ah, Leslie's making butter tarts.

01:28:31.160 You already doing your Christmas baking?

01:28:34.340 Okay, finally.

01:28:35.500 The commission has reconvened.

01:28:36.660 The commission is afro.

01:28:42.460 Okay.

01:28:45.280 The convoy organizes.

01:28:48.980 it's miller time morning for the record brendan miller appearing as counsel for freedom corp and

01:29:02.440 i think you know who i am as i'm your lawyer good morning so i just want to start out with some

01:29:09.760 just general question at any time during the protest had you been given a court order

01:29:19.400 injunction to move the trucks or leave or what have you what would you have done and how would

01:29:25.860 you have acted I would have obviously followed the injunction I never intended or came here to

01:29:35.740 break the law i would have asked if there was a way that we could remain uh if there was anything

01:29:41.620 that we could work out so that we could remain and and continue our protest okay and you heard

01:29:49.140 yesterday uh the evidence from mr dichter did you not i heard some of it yes right and he testified

01:29:56.900 about not knowing about the deal that the uh convoy corp or freedom corp you're gonna nail

01:30:05.160 them to the wall here we're going to enter into with the city do you have any comment about that

01:30:09.180 i believe uh he he was obviously not able to attend because he was in a cast um but i believe

01:30:17.080 we had dialed him in um on the phone to be present at that meeting right and so at that meeting what

01:30:25.640 was discussed i believe that was the uh deal with the mayor okay and what if any board members

01:30:34.940 objected to the dealings with the mayor i don't recall anybody objecting to it yeah and you heard

01:30:42.760 him give evidence that the board members were scared of the lawyers and what they were dealing

01:30:48.640 with do you have any comment in that respect that was news to me okay have any of the other board

01:30:55.440 members express such a fear to you no okay thank you um my friend mr champ discussed with you at

01:31:06.360 length the injunction uh when you should have known you should leave and though i haven't given

01:31:13.300 notice of this i'd like to bring up document hrf zero zero zero zero zero zero seven three which

01:31:21.380 is the injunction order from february 7th

01:31:38.100 and if we could just scroll down to the terms

01:31:46.020 sorry about the mouse finger

01:31:51.380 Right. And so if I can just direct you to paragraph 7 of the injunction.

01:32:01.460 Can you read that?

01:32:03.820 Yes, sir.

01:32:05.000 And what's your understanding of the injunction in this order at the time when it was obtained?

01:32:12.240 My understanding was that so long as we remained peaceful and complied with the order, we were permitted to stay.

01:32:19.580 Right. And then there was a subsequent order, and I understand that term, which states that provided the terms are complied with the defendants or other persons remain at liberty to engage in peaceful, lawful and safe protest. I take it that that term was in that order too. Is that correct?

01:32:35.780 I'm sorry, I didn't hear all that. Sorry.

01:32:37.460 I apologize, I'll speak up.

01:32:39.060 The term at Term 7 there, where it says that it's provided the terms of the order are complied with the defendants and other persons remain at liberty to engage in peaceful, lawful and safe protest.

01:32:50.660 I take it that was in the following injunction order as well.

01:32:54.100 Is that right?

01:32:54.920 I believe so, and I think that was February 16th, but I'm not sure.

01:32:59.600 Thank you.

01:33:00.140 And so, my friend with the Government of Canada discussed with you what your knowledge was of violent offences, etc., that was going on in Ottawa at the time.

01:33:11.460 If Mr. Register could bring up the document we just discussed, poe.hrf, a whole bunch of zeros, too.

01:33:30.140 If we could just rotate that.

01:33:44.400 And so the coloring on this is gone, and this is already in evidence.

01:33:49.320 But between the date of the beginning of the protest and the invocation of the Emergencies Act,

01:33:55.760 there was a total of four violent offences individuals were charged with in that time

01:34:01.780 period. Did you know any of those individuals? I did not. Okay. Did you hear about individuals

01:34:08.120 being charged with violent offences? Since we've been, since the convoy. Okay. And my friend had

01:34:16.340 asked you questions about some of the statements that have been given in this proceeding as well

01:34:22.240 as in the media about all these awful things that happened to people.

01:34:27.600 And you've been here for this entire time.

01:34:31.000 Have you heard from any witness that they, in fact, were the victim of an assault

01:34:36.260 or witnessed an assault or anything violent?

01:34:40.660 The only thing that I've seen and heard was not violence on the behalf of protesters.

01:34:53.420 It was the video footage that I saw when the crackdown came.

01:35:00.200 Could you agree that if there were victims of actual violence, given that they know who's charged,

01:35:08.900 it would have been relatively easy for those witnesses to be procured to testify before this commission.

01:35:16.400 I withdraw.

01:35:17.860 I withdraw.

01:35:19.220 I withdraw.

01:35:21.860 Now I just want to talk with you about the letter and some of the reactions that you got from some of the protesters.

01:35:30.540 Of course we know that Mr. Dichter didn't appear to like the letter and Mr. King didn't appear to like the letter.

01:35:38.080 What was your general responses that you were getting at the time with respect to the letter and the deal that was going to be done through the city?

01:35:49.220 Well, I can't speak to other places.

01:35:52.100 I know that we printed off that letter and I went out to 88 and spoke with the gentleman that owned the property out there.

01:35:59.980 And some of the truckers that were there, their response was very positive.

01:36:04.060 I think that everyone felt that, as I stated earlier, this was a step one.

01:36:11.040 Okay.

01:36:11.680 And again, what was the sort of responses, though, that you were getting on the street from some of the truckers after that deal was announced?

01:36:23.280 I don't remember.

01:36:25.640 Can you remember if it was, was there some negative responses?

01:36:29.140 Was there some positive responses that you personally witnessed?

01:36:32.180 i didn't witness any negative responses no okay we've got a sinking problem here and

01:36:37.020 i understand that uh mr morazzo as you you sat through his testimony uh he stated that the

01:36:45.600 purpose of the meeting and the goal of freedom corp and its board uh was not really to get a

01:36:52.880 deal with the mayor was to or to my meeting with the mayor but it was to get this deal to

01:36:57.920 make things work peacefully can you elaborate on that can you repeat that please so it the actual

01:37:04.420 goal uh with respect to uh freedom corp as well as the the protesters that you were representing

01:37:12.580 their actual goal was not to achieve a meeting with the mayor but it was to

01:37:18.360 deal with this in a peaceful manner can you elaborate on that yes well that was obviously

01:37:25.660 our goal, and again, to get the trucks off the residential streets. We were hoping to find a way

01:37:31.640 that the trucks that did have to move their vehicles out of the city would be able to come

01:37:37.720 back in and continue the protest. And again, we felt it was a step in the right direction, and

01:37:45.120 meeting with the mayor was not one of my goals, but I thought, again, it was a way to open some

01:37:52.100 dialogue with somebody in a position of authority okay and just on my last point here

01:38:01.160 part of this commission is about coming up with recommendations and things like that

01:38:08.380 i take it when you came into ottawa and we've heard evidence that a lot of the truckers were

01:38:17.120 directed where to park and that's where they kind of stayed throughout the proceeding or throughout

01:38:21.480 protest and so there is this issue and what we what i refer to and what's referred to in some of

01:38:29.300 the jurisprudence is a speaker's corner have you ever heard of that

01:38:32.660 i don't think so okay it's it's a much music come on a place a location in a in a government area

01:38:41.300 particularly out front of parliament or where have you where protesters are permitted to go

01:38:46.620 and it's a designated area for protest okay um i take it when you were trying to get the protest

01:38:54.420 moving most of the uh protesters were wanting to get onto wellington because it's in front

01:39:00.380 of parliament and they were protesting the federal government fair correct all right and

01:39:05.520 what is your understanding of the current state of wellington today i believe there's it's blocked

01:39:12.060 off right and if that area that's blocked off became a speaker's corner where individuals at

01:39:20.580 any time could go and protest the federal government uh what are your thoughts on that

01:39:25.680 i think that would be a good idea i i think canadians have a right to exercise their democratic

01:39:32.360 their democratic rights and they have a right to have their voices heard right and my friends from

01:39:39.040 government of canada put to you a whole bunch of evidence that you weren't familiar with until you

01:39:44.800 got here with respect to threats can you elaborate on any of the threats you've received ones that

01:39:51.260 you know members of the protesters received as well as your legal counsel and even any of the

01:39:56.920 legal counsel in this room since this proceeding started i know what well i heard when i was at

01:40:05.860 the ARC, that the ARC was receiving death threats against me, which is one of the reasons why

01:40:10.220 one of the reasons why I left that location. I have messages on my phone from an Instagram account

01:40:17.860 from a young man that wanted to not just shoot me, but also shoot the rest of the protesters

01:40:23.820 or the convoy organizers. I know that my my criminal lawyer has received some very nasty

01:40:34.180 emails. I believe Mr. Wilson has received death threats and threatening emails.

01:40:40.840 Right. And so it's fair to say then that there has been a lot of threats on both sides.

01:40:48.580 That's fair.

01:40:49.800 Okay. But do you know anybody who's made death threats to any of these individuals?

01:40:54.600 Of course not.

01:40:55.480 Okay. And when you walk in here every day for the past few days, there's a protester outside.

01:41:04.180 and I'm sure you've heard everything she's been saying,

01:41:07.720 and she's a counter-protester and is against your cause.

01:41:12.720 What are the sort of things that that protester has said to you

01:41:16.260 while you've been coming in and out of this hearing?

01:41:19.280 Well, it's been very hard to hear because there's a lot of construction.

01:41:22.360 I just hear her shouting my name a lot.

01:41:24.380 I heard her say something, I think, just now about she can't wait

01:41:28.180 till I go back to jail, but other than that, I haven't really...

01:41:32.220 Did she mention anything about terrorism?

01:41:34.180 I believe that's right on her sign.

01:41:37.020 And what's it say?

01:41:38.080 It says, go home terrorists.

01:41:40.060 Okay.

01:41:40.780 Thank you.

01:41:45.720 Okay, any re-examination?

01:41:48.800 No, Mr. Commissioner.

01:41:51.180 Okay.

01:41:53.000 I just have one question.

01:41:58.060 that you were taken to a chart

01:42:02.780 and told there were charges for violent offences.

01:42:10.000 Yes.

01:42:10.740 Do you know who was charged?

01:42:13.460 Do you know the four people?

01:42:14.440 The violent offences?

01:42:15.260 Yeah, the four people.

01:42:16.700 I have no, I know I don't.

01:42:18.740 Not that I can recall anyways.

01:42:20.460 So you don't know if it's someone you know

01:42:22.360 or someone you don't know?

01:42:23.440 I do not, sir.

01:42:24.760 Okay.

01:42:25.840 Well, thank you for your testimony.

01:42:27.580 and you're now free to go thank you thank you very much okay so that we move

01:42:36.700 on to the next which is the I believe the panel of two witnesses and there's

01:42:43.300 an issue to be discussed about the as I understand it the relevance of that so

01:42:50.340 maybe we'll deal with that now if that's agreeable sure thanks very much so I'll

01:42:56.920 remain seated here uh commissioner that's fine just identify yourself because it's the same the

01:43:03.240 reporters have to know who's speaking sure it's uh david mitchakoski council for the ottawa police

01:43:08.680 service um we have a very real concern with respect to the witness panel of chris deering and maggie

01:43:20.680 dingmer i believe there is now a different name and i apologize

01:43:26.920 It's Hope Braun, I believe.

01:43:31.200 Those two individuals, and our concern is essentially one of procedural fairness.

01:43:39.200 Those two individuals were not on the list of witnesses provided by the Commission.

01:43:45.720 And so last Friday...

01:43:47.920 You mean they weren't on the original list?

01:43:51.480 Correct.

01:43:51.960 And what we found out was on last Friday, October 28th at 12.37 p.m., we received an email from the commission saying that these two individuals would be called as witnesses and attaching two statements from these individuals.

01:44:10.560 No information had been previously provided about these individuals or about the issues that they were going to testify about.

01:44:19.720 This guy's worried because Deering got beaten by his clients.

01:44:23.840 Nor were there any documents provided by the parties.

01:44:28.220 So he's trying to have them stricken.

01:44:29.400 Including the Ottawa Police Service.

01:44:30.540 Makes sense.

01:44:31.440 Hopefully he's not successful.

01:44:33.000 About the manner of arrest.

01:44:34.260 It appears that both of these individuals from their statements are going to give evidence about the circumstances of their arrest by unknown officers.

01:44:44.840 I've been able to determine in one case that it was not an OPS officer.

01:44:49.720 one of them, but we are trying to find out information. These are arrests that took place

01:44:55.960 on February 18th after the invocation of the Emergencies Act. These individuals were not

01:45:02.680 arrested pursuant to the Emergencies Act. They were arrested based on common law powers

01:45:09.520 and the criminal code. And my concerns really are twofold. Firstly, the information we say

01:45:17.020 is not relevant to your mandate under the act um and none of it's been relevant one of

01:45:23.980 well not none but 80 percent of it there were over 275 arrests made by the police in that period

01:45:32.140 of february 18th to the 20th none of the police witnesses were asked uh specifically about those

01:45:41.620 arrests, no documents were requested. The last police witness who testified in this proceeding

01:45:49.360 was on Wednesday, October 26. Had those witness statements been provided prior to the completion

01:45:57.780 of the police witnesses, then at the very least, we could have asked our witnesses to provide

01:46:04.340 evidence with respect to the arrest plan, with respect to the circumstances of the arrest of

01:46:10.900 those two individuals and the other 275 people who were arrested. I am not faulting commission

01:46:20.220 counsel. I understand that the statements were provided to them, and they provided them to us

01:46:27.780 immediately after. But it was two days after the last witness testified. Those statements were in

01:46:35.300 those were witnesses who are here represented by counsel they had an obligation to produce

01:46:43.740 documents they chose deliberately or otherwise to not present that evidence okay dude you made

01:46:51.780 your point like let's allow me justice to give his ruling here to wasting time it's obvious that

01:46:57.960 some of that information they had beforehand.

01:47:00.860 And in fact, to add to the procedural unfairness, last night we received an email from counsel

01:47:10.580 for the convoy organizers attaching seven more videos that also would have existed that

01:47:18.340 were not disclosed.

01:47:20.360 There's no explanation for why the convoy organizers have not had to follow the same

01:47:26.160 rules as everyone else, those statements, even if they were relevant, and I don't concede that

01:47:34.620 they are, should have been provided prior to police witnesses testifying, it creates a serious

01:47:41.400 and irreparable breach of procedural fairness to have you left with two arrests out of 275,

01:47:50.480 which I am unable to provide evidence in response to, both those specific arrests as well as the

01:47:58.580 arrest plan in general. And there are, I say, two possible solutions. The first is to not allow that

01:48:06.420 evidence to be heard. It's not relevant to your mandate. And even if it was, it would be very

01:48:14.480 difficult to draw any conclusion from the evidence of two individuals out of 275 arrests

01:48:21.960 when you've heard no evidence about any of the arrests of anyone else or the arrest plans or

01:48:29.020 any explanation of those two particular arrests. Alternatively, if you are inclined to allow that

01:48:37.060 panel to testify, including adding new documents that were not on the database and were provided

01:48:44.640 last night, then the OPS must, we say, as a matter of procedural fairness, be allowed

01:48:50.460 the opportunity to call another witness to provide evidence about the arrest plans and

01:48:56.860 the exercise of use of force options in connection with the exercise of police powers, generally

01:49:03.640 and specifically with respect to the scene that the officers encountered on February 18th.

01:49:11.740 You have not heard about what is involved when a public order unit has to exercise tactical

01:49:20.220 options. For those of you wondering why we haven't heard much about how the police were beating

01:49:25.720 lawful, peaceful Canadians, this is why. Similarly, we can provide any documents surrounding

01:49:30.940 those arrests so while my first submission is that you should not allow this evidence

01:49:38.680 as an alternative if you are inclined to do so then i would ask for the opportunity to call

01:49:45.940 evidence so that in fairness the police witnesses can address what should have been put to them

01:49:53.400 yes okay you've made your request and i'd say absolutely bring the cop on to explain why they

01:49:59.260 had to beat this guy thank you very much okay thank you any other council wish to make submissions

01:50:09.340 in response sir uh okay i'm just i'm just canvassing first so uh you'd like yes yes

01:50:16.380 commissioner okay go ahead try go ahead emily tamen for the i take it you're you're uh supporting the

01:50:24.300 the proposal that or the objection that's right yes we agree just on behalf of the uh ottawa

01:50:31.300 coalition of residents and businesses we share the view uh conveyed by the ottawa police we

01:50:36.900 understand that the commission is working under difficult constraints wearing a mask and um

01:50:41.080 limitations in the in council's ability to get documents and um other the only ones wearing

01:50:47.420 masks are the lawyers for the ottawa citizens coalition we would agree that uh there is

01:50:51.900 prejudice and that the um evidence at least as it pertains to the arrests uh should not be admitted

01:50:58.940 thank you any other uh

01:51:04.540 yes commissioners commissioners chris diana for the opp can you hear me yes yes the opp agrees with

01:51:11.900 the position of of our friend mr mitchakovsky of course they do both the is it the main position

01:51:17.100 or the alternative position at this point we don't know if the opp was involved or not in these

01:51:23.320 incidents and let's find out fairness we should see the video that evidence either should not be

01:51:28.780 permitted or we should have a chance to respond to it i won't add anything further to the comments

01:51:33.760 by my friend but the opp supports that position okay when you say my friend by the way to the

01:51:38.960 person who was asking that's just an old english legal tradition lawyers refer to each other in

01:51:43.640 court as my friend as I understand it the convoy the convoy organizers are

01:51:51.560 opposing we're of course in support of the witnesses testifying and all of the

01:51:57.560 evidence being put before the Commission I'll deal first with the point of law my

01:52:03.480 friend raises about relevance and materiality with respect to the terms of

01:52:09.020 reference under the order and counsel in this commission it this commission is to

01:52:14.260 look at the efforts of police and other responders prior to and after the

01:52:18.540 declaration so with respect to whether or not there was police brutality or

01:52:23.420 misconduct etc it's relevant material within the terms of reference second with

01:52:30.140 respect to my friends allegations of prejudice and it not being fair with

01:52:37.280 respect, they have not called a single victim or a single eyewitness to any of these purported

01:52:46.860 violent crimes that they're trying to lay at the hands of the protesters as a collective.

01:52:52.000 I don't see how our clients being able to find some witnesses of which they had no control of

01:52:58.960 and which approach them in trying to be able to call actual evidence of actual violence that

01:53:05.900 isn't just an assertion, and in my respectful view, it's relevant and material. If you find

01:53:12.940 that there is some form of prejudice suffered, what my friend is essentially alleging is a

01:53:19.720 violation of the rule of Brown and Dunn. If this was a court, that leaves the court with various

01:53:25.700 remedies, and one is to permit the recalling of a witness in rebuttal. With respect to the rule

01:53:32.660 of Brown and Dunn, I did put issues with respect to arrest, et cetera, directly to Chief Bell,

01:53:39.900 who was in charge of the operation at the time, and acting and asking questions about what was

01:53:45.720 actually done. We've now provided the videos of those actual arrests. I understand that all the

01:53:52.940 police agencies don't want that to be in the public eye. And with respect, I would submit

01:53:59.120 that the public has a right to see these videos.

01:54:02.240 It is in the public interest,

01:54:03.700 and any prejudice is easily repairable

01:54:06.080 by permitting my friends to call a rebuttal witness

01:54:09.140 if they so choose.

01:54:10.660 Subject to any questions, sir.

01:54:11.880 Those are my submissions.

01:54:13.620 Okay.

01:54:14.380 All right.

01:54:14.960 And any other party is opposing the application?

01:54:24.220 I'm here for the Justice Center for Constitutional Freedoms.

01:54:27.220 We're with you, man.

01:54:27.980 Play the video.

01:54:29.120 Freedom Convoy Organizer's position, and if I could just make a few points.

01:54:34.260 So first, the terms of reference in the Emergencies Act do require investigating and looking into the

01:54:42.200 appropriateness of the measures that were used. Interim Chief Bell testified that using emergency

01:54:48.920 powers were used to create an exclusion zone, and they relied on that authority. And so I would

01:54:56.180 expect that these witnesses as arrestees great beard

01:55:03.620 the point that these are but two arrestees of many we did hear from two ottawa residents who

01:55:11.980 provided their experiences as examples and that would then represent a broader class of individuals

01:55:19.260 so this would also be two arrestees providing you know we've already seen these videos online they

01:55:25.700 were posted over and over and over again but to see them in this scenario is a different situation

01:55:30.360 my friend uh mr honor from the democracy fund provided submissions through email he's not here

01:55:35.580 i would just briefly read it in just to provide his perspective as well uh the democracy fund

01:55:41.600 submitted that the evidence of these witnesses is relevant to the commission's mandate

01:55:45.400 specifically the commissioner has been directed to examine issues to the extent relevant relating

01:55:50.540 to the efforts of police and other responders prior to and after the declaration.

01:55:56.660 Superintendent Robert Bernier and others testified about the mission statement contained in the

01:56:00.880 OPS operational plan of February 13th, which speaks to enforcing legislation with the, quote,

01:56:07.160 utmost respect to the individual's charter of rights, end quote.

01:56:11.100 There was evidence before the Commission that this plan evolved after the declaration of

01:56:15.180 the Emergencies Act, and there was also evidence that the OPS found the powers available to

01:56:20.580 them under the Emergencies Act to be useful. The Commission should hear evidence from these

01:56:24.680 witnesses as it will speak to how police enforcement was carried out during the state

01:56:29.020 of emergency from a protester perspective. If there are objections as to relevance as

01:56:33.600 the evidence unfolds, those objections can be dealt with orally. If other witnesses need

01:56:38.140 to be recalled, that decision can be made after the hearing of evidence from the witnesses in

01:56:42.820 question so that was a mr. honor submission which the the justice center

01:56:46.600 also supports thank you any other who are opposing he commands a room doesn't

01:56:58.360 need just by doing that they shut up mr. commissioner at some point commission

01:57:05.020 counsel like to provide some points of context but if you're still canvassing

01:57:08.940 and we can wait until the next time.

01:57:10.940 Okay, you'd like to add something?

01:57:12.840 Yes.

01:57:13.480 If I may, Commissioner Emily Tammett, again, for the record.

01:57:16.340 I just wanted to respond to one point made by my friends

01:57:18.980 regarding the absence of evidence with respect to residents of Ottawa

01:57:24.300 who experienced violence in the convoy.

01:57:27.660 And for the record, I would just like to note again

01:57:29.680 that the Ottawa Coalition was very limited in the time

01:57:33.560 that was allocated to tell the story of residents of Ottawa.

01:57:36.220 I would also note that there are many residents who continue to fear for their safety in being identified publicly as opposing the convoy.

01:57:46.480 And with that said, I don't think it's appropriate to infer from the lack of evidence on that point that it didn't happen.

01:57:55.720 And I would also note...

01:57:56.460 Oh, really? You have no evidence?

01:57:58.440 We're getting into argument now.

01:58:00.660 We're dealing with whether or not there is relevance to the evidence.

01:58:04.200 Just because we don't have any evidence doesn't mean it didn't happen.

01:58:06.760 That's right, but one of the bases upon which it's being asserted that it is relevant

01:58:09.880 is that there's been no evidence in relation to violence experienced by residents.

01:58:17.260 And that's something that my friend put to Ms. Leach this morning,

01:58:19.840 and also Mr. Miller noted it.

01:58:21.620 This is a commission, and slash, it's acting like a court.

01:58:24.200 You need to have evidence, or it's just hearsay.

01:58:26.760 the one point i want to respond to um that they are desperate with respect been addressed by

01:58:38.300 my friends and which is highly problematic i suggest is um

01:58:44.760 the convoy lawyer has indicated that he put an issue with respect to an arrest to um chief bell

01:58:54.860 and that is correct however he provided no information no details no indication of who it

01:59:04.420 was when it was it came out of the air and what makes that more problematic is that obviously

01:59:12.300 that information was in his possession and there was no documentation provided beforehand this was

01:59:22.160 sprung after the police witnesses had already testified when we then got these statements had

01:59:29.880 uh the rules been followed that witness would have seen those statements would have seen documents

01:59:36.080 we would have had the opportunity to put in documents and call evidence no in fairness

01:59:41.900 when you ask the commissioner to step in he's listening he has to give them the leeway for

01:59:48.040 this one of my friends indicated that two of that several of the um convoy uh witness or

01:59:55.800 several of the coalition's witnesses um testified and that is true just look at how desperate these

02:00:04.520 opposition lawyers are though like can you feel it or they testify absolutely desperate so so

02:00:10.680 desperate you can hear it in their voices and they're also making nonsensical arguments just

02:00:14.860 Just because we don't have evidence doesn't mean it didn't happen.

02:00:17.780 Yes, it does.

02:00:18.620 In this case, there is a serious denial of procedural fairness, and that's what we say must be addressed.

02:00:29.600 Thank you.

02:00:30.460 Okay.

02:00:31.520 Intermission counsel, you wanted to provide some context, and among other things, I don't know what the witnesses are going to say.

02:00:39.880 Is it too early for popcorn?

02:00:41.140 To what degree is it, is this one of the witnesses that we saw the video about or is

02:00:47.240 this something different?

02:00:50.560 So maybe, go ahead.

02:00:54.380 Sorry, I didn't mean to cut off my hand.

02:00:58.660 This is not the witness.

02:01:01.500 That one was also unfair but we were at least able to get instructions and able to deal

02:01:07.860 with it in cross-examination.

02:01:09.860 Okay, so that was a red herring then.

02:01:12.260 Okay, I was worried that this was the same person.

02:01:17.300 No, I have no objection, by the way, for you reviewing those statements so that you can understand the nature of the evidence.

02:01:24.560 Okay.

02:01:25.380 Commissioned counsel?

02:01:27.280 Thank you, Mr. Commissioner John Mather.

02:01:28.960 Commissioned counsel.

02:01:29.680 Yeah, yeah, he knows who you are.

02:01:31.080 of context. Again, we haven't heard the evidence yet, but Commission Council expect that while

02:01:37.740 there may be some evidence given about the arrests, that's not the focus of the evidence.

02:01:41.860 Don't expect it to be the focus of the evidence. The two individuals who are being called,

02:01:46.000 Commission Council understands, participated in the protests both before and after the invocation

02:01:51.940 of the Emergencies Act. They are not individuals, again, as we anticipate, who identify themselves

02:01:56.880 as organizers. To date, the Commission has called individuals who have identified themselves

02:02:04.380 as organizers, and this is a different perspective and one that we anticipate exploring. And

02:02:10.080 then the second point, Mr. Commissioner, is that there has been evidence given by police

02:02:14.860 witnesses about the measured responses in terms of ending the protests in the red zone

02:02:20.160 in Ottawa. Some of these matters have been before the Commission and prior to the day

02:02:25.200 without objection okay thank you any any further submissions by anyone i'll be i'm being very

02:02:32.680 generous about submission time no kidding just one more sir and i just want to emphasize good lord

02:02:38.760 but don't repeat though i'm not i'm not going to repeat um i always worry when someone says

02:02:44.560 i'm going to emphasize i'll take it back i'm going to point out uh that you know when it's

02:02:52.100 the commission under the inquiry act and its provincial equivalents uh it is an inquiry and

02:02:59.060 it has different rules and it's much more liberal when it comes to eva chip right here and though

02:03:08.340 my friend's argument there is many more remedies available for a breach of the rule of brown and

02:03:16.260 done if you find that it had occurred than not permitting the evidence and i would submit

02:03:22.180 simply that the least intrusive remedy in the truth-seeking function of this commission would

02:03:30.100 be to allow the evidence and on whatever terms you see just thank you well i'm gonna go and

02:03:40.580 take some time with this give me a moment

02:03:42.340 what's he doing under there tossing a coin

02:03:46.140 he's sitting there watching everybody watch him

02:03:53.760 feeling everybody watch him

02:03:55.720 what am I going to do with this

02:03:58.720 see Miller's the only one that cited a precedent

02:04:06.760 Okay, I'm going to allow the panels to go ahead.

02:04:12.440 Yes!

02:04:13.440 We, I knew it!

02:04:15.440 On Mr. Biskowski's first point about whether the information is relevant.

02:04:21.080 I think there is certainly evidence that it may be, I haven't heard it, but it may be

02:04:27.800 relevant as to the use of the Emergency Act and in particular the notices that are, have

02:04:35.060 apparently there's lots of evidence were circulated as recently as this

02:04:41.240 morning so the the use of the notices the setting up of exclusive exclusion

02:04:49.940 zones is squarely within the mandate and therefore I think the information may

02:04:57.800 well be relevant. I also note that there has been

02:05:01.940 evidence of police

02:05:04.600 as to the fact that the protest

02:05:09.340 was ended in an orderly manner and

02:05:13.380 quite properly, I believe Inspector Bowden

02:05:17.580 talked about that, I believe. Properly? Other witness, maybe Chief

02:05:21.820 Bell talked about the fact it was ended without

02:05:25.060 Okay, right, so he's discussing what the police response was to how it ended.

02:05:29.740 So the manner of ending is relevant, and this may go to some degree.

02:05:33.320 That's not Rouleau's opinion, though.

02:05:35.600 And there was also cross-examination in, I believe, of Inspector Bernier

02:05:43.340 as to the arrangements that were made and the processing, how the processing was done.

02:05:49.200 So there is evidence about how the operation, if you like, was carried out, including how the detainees were treated and the system arranged.

02:06:05.380 Now, having said that, the impact and relevance diminishes to a point where it in fact becomes questionable as we get further along, further from the use of the Emergency Act notice, etc.

02:06:24.460 because this commission is not mandated to deal with arrests that were or were not done in accordance with the appropriate procedures.

02:06:36.500 Yes, but you've already heard testimony that they were done that way,

02:06:40.280 and so now if you see testimony and evidence that was done the other way, you're going to have the different perspective.

02:06:47.180 That's what finding the truth is all about.

02:06:49.500 I would say of marginal relevance if any to what the commission is doing when you talk about

02:06:56.200 the actual manner of arrest as opposed to what I've described that is more squarely in the

02:07:05.660 guys I think this testimony is going to be explosive that it is that these this panel

02:07:11.960 is not relevant uh i uh expect the accent will be on what i have set out is clearly relevant and

02:07:21.320 what's related to that and obviously there'll be some context context has been provided by

02:07:27.900 other witnesses sometimes uh and uh and while i may hear that it may not become an issue that i

02:07:37.300 have to deal with this is going to be the first time that many canadians have seen this kind of

02:07:40.860 stuff so make sure you share this this is huge some concern about that because obviously

02:07:45.800 it is uh as i've said many times and i'm going to repeat it the public wants to get to the bottom

02:07:53.560 of this and uh and that means fair to all parties and i am concerned that there may be unfairness

02:08:02.460 to the uh to some of the parties in particular the the police uh forces whether it be the opp

02:08:10.300 or the OPS or, in fact, to former Chief Slowly or anyone else.

02:08:17.740 Hey, they couldn't provide evidence.

02:08:19.180 Fairness is front and centre in my concerns,

02:08:21.960 and if after we hear this evidence there's a need to call further evidence,

02:08:27.140 we've said we would sit evenings and we will sit Saturdays.

02:08:32.160 We will get the information that the public needs to know

02:08:37.240 and that will lead to a fair treatment for all.

02:08:41.560 But I guess that's my ruling.

02:08:44.920 Now, if you want something more formal in writing, I'm happy to do it.

02:08:48.100 But since the panel is here waiting and we want to get, we all make sure we fully use our Friday,

02:08:59.600 I thought I'd give my ruling now.

02:09:02.420 Excellent.

02:09:02.860 If any party wants it in writing and expanded upon, I'm happy to do that.

02:09:07.200 Yeah, yeah, do it during the lunch break, but let's get on with it.

02:09:09.640 I think that sets up my thinking in a general way.

02:09:12.620 And with respect to whether we will have another panel or another witness,

02:09:17.480 I think that's something we can deal with after the evidence is heard.

02:09:21.680 With respect to the videos, I'm a bit concerned about the videos.

02:09:25.980 I haven't seen them.

02:09:28.860 You will.

02:09:29.640 I would hope we're not going to get too far afield of what's relevant to the issues I need to deal with, and I don't mean to minimize any issues about how an arrest was carried out.

02:09:46.740 Those are obviously significant to individuals involved, including the officers, but that's not central, in fact, is more anecdotal, I think, in terms of what this commission is dealing with.

02:10:02.000 There's been a lot of anecdotal in terms of what this commission is dealing with, Justice Rouleau.

02:10:06.500 some of the the evidence relating to that so that's that's my ruling and we

02:10:12.820 can proceed with the panel I believe and I will expect the parties if there are

02:10:21.400 concerns about the ruling and you wish it in writing please notify Commission

02:10:25.620 Council okay do it well it will be in writing because it'll be in the

02:10:30.480 transcript but expanded upon and sir I don't believe the witness chair and desk

02:10:35.540 are set up for two witnesses right now they need to get another mic as well as okay well we'll

02:10:40.460 take five minutes then okay five minutes five minutes set up the panel all right five minutes

02:10:46.200 okay let's take five minutes i gotta go pee i'm sure a lot of you guys do too i am very interested

02:11:04.040 in seeing how this rolls out.

02:11:07.160 Maybe grab another cup of coffee

02:11:08.840 or whatever it is.

02:11:09.660 I see some people are drinking coffee

02:11:11.320 and Bailey's already.

02:11:12.620 We'll be right back, okay?

02:11:14.440 All right, good.

02:11:34.040 Thank you.

02:12:04.040 Thank you.

02:12:34.040 Thank you.

02:13:04.040 .

02:13:34.040 Thank you.

02:14:04.040 Amen.

02:14:34.040 Thank you.

02:15:04.040 Thank you.

02:15:34.040 i have 45 minutes to ask you some questions and because you're a panel um i'm going to ask

02:15:46.060 questions mostly one at a time commission council i have questions for you as a group

02:15:50.180 oh sorry you have to be sworn i forgot that i got too eager

02:15:56.200 Mr. Dearing?

02:16:00.660 Yes.

02:16:01.340 Will you swear on a religious document or do you wish to affirm?

02:16:04.340 I wish to affirm.

02:16:06.180 For the record, please state your full name and spell it out.

02:16:09.600 Christopher Gregory Dearing, C-H-R-I-S-T-O-P-H-E-R, G-R-E-G-O-R-Y-D-E-E-R-I-N-G.

02:16:17.340 Do you solemnly affirm that the evidence to be given by you to this commission

02:16:20.480 shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

02:16:22.480 I do.

02:16:22.780 Ma'am, do you wish, will you swear on a religious document or do you wish to affirm?

02:16:28.080 The Bible, please.

02:16:41.780 For the record, please state your full name and spell it out.

02:16:51.500 Margaret Hope Braun, M-A-R-G-A-R-E-T-H-O-P-E-B-R-A-U-N

02:16:59.420 Do you swear that the evidence to be given by you to this commission

02:17:02.880 shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth to help you God?

02:17:06.520 So help me God.

02:17:07.320 Thank you.

02:17:10.840 So good morning again.

02:17:12.700 As I was just explaining, because it's a panel,

02:17:18.480 I'm going to ask questions mostly one at a time.

02:17:21.500 But when I have a question for you as a group, I'll try to make that clear, okay?

02:17:26.420 So I understand, and this is for the panel, I understand that you both provided statements to your counsel?

02:17:32.160 That's correct.

02:17:33.220 And have you had a chance to review those statements before testifying today?

02:17:38.240 Yes.

02:17:38.760 Yes.

02:17:40.060 And did you want to make any corrections to those statements?

02:17:44.060 No.

02:17:44.600 No.

02:17:45.660 Okay, and so in the interest of time, I'm not going to put them on the screen,

02:17:49.140 but for the record Mr. Dearing's statement is produced at HRF 00001598

02:17:57.940 and Ms. Hope Braun's statement is produced at HRF 00001606.

02:18:08.080 So I just want to ask some questions about your background really quickly.

02:18:12.120 So Mr. Dearing, I understand that you're a veteran of the Canadian Armed Forces?

02:18:16.940 Yes, sir.

02:18:17.560 and you served a tour of duty in Afghanistan yes sir and I understand

02:18:22.800 that you were wounded in that tour it was can you briefly tell the

02:18:26.680 Commissioner about that event sure I joined the military quickly in 2007

02:18:34.880 finished my training very quick I was deployed to Afghanistan in 2008 so in

02:18:40.520 less than approximately two years I was in Afghanistan four months into my tour

02:18:46.840 my vehicle was hit by a IED which took my vehicle sorry it blew my vehicle about

02:18:57.880 100 feet in the air killing three occupants immediately and leaving me

02:19:03.020 seriously wounded I came back to Canada and sorry lost my train of thought I'm

02:19:11.860 right that's okay thank you um i also saw sir and we'll take a moment i saw that you're wearing

02:19:19.460 medals yes sir can you just explain what the medals are so left to right uh left would be my

02:19:26.180 queen jubilee medal uh it was lost during the uh protests uh with the scuffle of the police um second

02:19:33.220 is my campaign star for my tour of afghanistan and my sacrifice medal that i earned for being

02:19:38.180 seriously wounded in combat and i understand now that you're retired from the canadian armed forces

02:19:45.620 yes sir and you reside in hanwell new brunswick i do thank you uh and miss hope braun uh i

02:19:53.060 understand that you're from peterborough ontario yes and you studied environmental studies at

02:19:58.580 sanford fleming college sir sanford fleming sir sanford and you're a mother to two children yes

02:20:05.060 Yes. Thank you. So if I can ask Mr. Deering, I understand that you traveled to Ottawa to protest with the convoy.

02:20:15.740 What made you want to come to Ottawa and protest?

02:20:20.640 It really wasn't that I wanted to come to Ottawa. It's that I felt it was my duty and that I had no choice to be there.

02:20:27.640 Seeing what was happening over the last few years was troubling.

02:20:32.120 and I felt that I was there two weekends, first between February 11th and 13th in which a bunch

02:20:42.900 of veterans took down the fence that was wrongly placed around the memorial and then I went home

02:20:48.840 and then within days the emergency act was being looked at being enacted and I rushed back to

02:20:56.200 Ottawa to do what I could to protect the peaceful citizens of the protests.

02:21:03.000 And so when you traveled to Ottawa, what did you understand that you were there to protest?

02:21:08.200 The mandates. I was there to protest the mandates.

02:21:11.860 And why was that important to you?

02:21:14.280 Because for the last two years, personally, as a wounded veteran, I couldn't do anything.

02:21:22.660 I couldn't take my family to a restaurant.

02:21:24.700 I couldn't take my kids to gymnastics.

02:21:26.280 I couldn't grieve my comrades in Nova Scotia

02:21:31.040 because I wasn't allowed to cross the border

02:21:32.660 in my own vehicle by myself

02:21:34.840 to a cemetery where no one was living

02:21:37.080 and lay my flowers for my mental health.

02:21:41.540 And I was denied that for two years.

02:21:45.580 There's many more reasons.

02:21:48.360 Again, my train of thought is lost.

02:21:49.760 I'm sorry.

02:21:51.060 That's okay.

02:21:52.240 I'll ask some questions now to Ms. Hope Braun.

02:21:56.280 i also understand that you traveled to ottawa to protest what made you want to come to ottawa to

02:22:00.920 protest yeah it had been um going on two years of of mandates and they just seemed to get

02:22:13.160 more and more restriction restrictive um i had tried every avenue available within our system

02:22:21.160 to communicate the difficulty that I was seeing around me

02:22:25.840 and experiencing to our government at various levels.

02:22:30.420 And nothing was effective, and the tone was not changing

02:22:35.880 coming from the federal government.

02:22:39.740 And I was just losing hope and really looking for options

02:22:46.780 on how I could find a more peace and safety for my family

02:22:54.060 and felt really isolated.

02:22:57.880 And then seeing the convoy begin.

02:23:03.680 I also lived out west for 10 years,

02:23:06.920 so I have a lot of my support network is there,

02:23:10.800 and I couldn't travel there.

02:23:11.780 And so there was a lot of people who I know personally that were sharing stories about how it was affecting them, where they were.

02:23:23.780 And I just felt since I'm three hours away from Ottawa, I have a duty to go as well and not just represent myself by many Canadians who could not come and felt passionately about this.

02:23:36.760 And so when did you come to Ottawa?

02:23:38.660 I came the second Saturday, I came the third weekend for the entire weekend, and I came back that Wednesday and stayed until the end.

02:23:59.060 And can you tell the Commissioner what your experience was with those protests?

02:24:02.860 Well, when we first arrived, I came with a girlfriend for the Saturday, and it was just a lot of energy.

02:24:14.520 I was seeing people from all different backgrounds and cultures, different outfits and, you know, cultural outfits that I had never even seen before in Canada.

02:24:35.980 I there is lots of hugs and there was walking up there was just grown men crying and giving hugs

02:24:48.400 and everywhere and it was emotional and we cried we had spent a long time feeling like we were

02:24:55.940 really alone and not being able to go out and really not being able to even talk or share our

02:25:02.740 experience in our family gatherings because we were not welcome to speak openly about what we

02:25:11.440 were experiencing. And so to be, it felt like this was our family. And I saw so many good things I

02:25:24.700 could just go on for an hour on that um i saw lots of flags i saw um yeah i think that's

02:25:35.320 interestingly we're not seeing the and if i could ask mr deering uh building on that what was your

02:25:40.660 experience with the protest and how did how did it compare how was it similar to or different from

02:25:45.260 miss bronze miss hope bronze my experience was that uh when we got to ottawa so on the way to

02:25:50.700 Ottawa. Actually, when the convoy was making their way to Ottawa, we attended a few, there were a lot

02:25:57.800 of people who would stay on the bridges to show support. And so where we lived, we lived close to

02:26:03.280 a military base and there must have been four to five thousand people on this bridge waving flags

02:26:09.340 and it was amazing. It was just, the amount of support was incredible. We made our way, sorry,

02:26:17.720 We made our way February 11th, the first weekend, just to kind of, we wanted to see for ourselves what was going on.

02:26:26.920 Because when we watched the news, there was one narrative, and we wanted to see for ourselves.

02:26:31.740 Because on Facebook and social media, you'd see a whole completely different other story.

02:26:35.700 So we wanted to go there for ourselves.

02:26:36.920 So our first instance was myself and my wife.

02:26:39.460 We went up to see what was going on.

02:26:42.280 I participated in the fence removal.

02:26:45.340 Again, I went home.

02:26:47.760 The following, I think it was February 17th, I left my residence at 5 a.m. to go to the protest.

02:26:57.440 But during the protest, there was, again, there was hogs.

02:27:00.480 There was homeless people being showered with food.

02:27:03.320 I had read that crime was down.

02:27:05.220 It was the most amazing experience I've had in my life.

02:27:10.100 And I don't regret going or being there one bit.

02:27:15.380 And I'm sorry, do you refresh my memory on the question again?

02:27:18.040 Just asking for your experience.

02:27:19.880 And so, sorry, did you have anything more to add or were you done?

02:27:23.820 There's a lot more I could pack into that, but it was just, it was the true Canadian spirit that was there.

02:27:30.980 Can I add?

02:27:33.000 Please do, yeah.

02:27:33.560 Okay.

02:27:33.960 Okay. Yeah, the first weekend that I came, I came with a female friend, and she stayed at my house the night before, and we were reading the news, the global news, and they had something in there about we haven't received a police report yet on how many additional rapes had taken place in the city since the convoy arrived.

02:28:00.060 and um and that just really shook me that they would go to that extent to make just

02:28:07.880 anyway that way but when I got here the experience was um like the the positive masculine experience

02:28:16.160 the way that the men were behaving they were complete gentlemans and um you know I felt

02:28:22.680 not unsafe whatsoever in the city and um when my phone died and i went back i wasn't familiar with

02:28:30.320 the streets um i was approached and walked to my car and um just treated with such respect by the

02:28:41.320 men that were here and so for the panel uh i understand that you both well you were coming

02:28:48.500 to Ottawa and then going home and coming back, once the Emergencies Act was invoked, why

02:28:55.080 did you want to either come to Ottawa or remain in Ottawa?

02:29:01.260 So I remember when they were voting on that and my wife and I were lying in bed and we

02:29:08.600 were terrified how the vote was going because we knew or we felt that the

02:29:18.860 evidence would would not be able to substantiate such a call. I felt there

02:29:25.680 was a great need for me to be there not just as a veteran but as a seriously

02:29:30.740 wounded veteran to be there to protect the Canadian people from what could

02:29:34.720 potentially happen so after the Emergencies Act was invoked why did you

02:29:45.700 want to come back to Ottawa or remain in Ottawa if you were already there yeah I

02:29:49.300 came to Ottawa for Valentine's Day so that was the day that it was invoked

02:29:54.960 um february 14th if i'm correct um that day i uh witnessed um hundreds of roses being

02:30:06.480 um offered to the police officers um there was a lot of love there was a lot of trying to heal

02:30:12.560 the um divide that was trying that was being created between us and the police and um the

02:30:20.000 streets of Ottawa were covered in roses that day and further to that just

02:30:24.460 listening to the senators give their speeches I felt that that as they were

02:30:30.260 supposed to approve it but then it was removed before they had a chance to

02:30:34.320 approve it or not it sounded like there was good reason to stick to what I felt

02:30:43.100 was right and and stay and i don't believe that if a government passes a a law it means that we

02:30:52.920 have to go against what we believe is right we should still um you know we still have a right

02:30:58.900 to peacefully protest and assemble and if we can't do that in front of the parliament in ottawa i

02:31:05.160 don't i don't know you know and so building on that miss hope braun uh once the emergencies act

02:31:11.220 was invoked what was your understanding of your your ability to lawfully protest in the downtown

02:31:17.460 area well i believe that we still had have a right to protest um in the downtown area or anywhere

02:31:32.340 that we were peaceful and as long as we remain so we had a right to assemble and

02:31:38.980 And, yeah, I had another point to that, but you could repeat the question again.

02:31:47.600 Well, that's okay.

02:31:48.000 We can come back to it.

02:31:48.880 I'll just ask Mr. Deering, what was your understanding once the Emergencies Act was invoked of your ability to lawfully protest in the downtown area?

02:31:58.940 My understanding is that it was a mandate.

02:32:02.080 In my eyes, it was an unlawful mandate.

02:32:05.420 I'm a free citizen of this country.

02:32:07.900 I'm a taxpayer.

02:32:08.980 I'm a veteran, I'm a good person, and I felt I had the right to be there with my Canadian citizens to try to protect them.

02:32:22.560 And so, Mr. Deering, I understand that on February 18th, 2022, you were in Ottawa protesting as well, correct?

02:32:33.820 Yes, sir.

02:32:35.520 Where were you staying in Ottawa that day?

02:32:38.980 at that time. So I drove up February 17th. I left my house at 5 a.m. because it takes

02:32:44.100 me approximately 10 hours with my back and my foot, my conditions. I have to stop every

02:32:50.040 few hours. So I arrived in Ottawa sometime that evening. I parked my car. I remember

02:32:55.820 on Bank Street. I walked up to the memorial to just congregate with the veterans. I went

02:33:02.620 back to my car and knowing me, I got lost for an hour and a half. I walked around the

02:33:08.000 city i eventually found my car which is where i slept um we had came up the previous weekend which

02:33:13.820 was about a thousand bucks for the hotel and food and i didn't really have the means to pay for more

02:33:18.800 hotel and lodging so i slept in my car the previous night do you recall where on bank street you you

02:33:26.000 parked no i don't was it in the downtown area i believe so and and so you when you drove in did

02:33:32.980 you pass any police checkpoints or anything like that I forget okay miss

02:33:43.500 Hope Braun I understand that you were in Ottawa protesting on February 19th is

02:33:49.180 that correct that's correct where were you staying at the time or how did you

02:33:52.820 how did you find yourself in Ottawa I was at a hotel Barb this is the

02:33:57.680 commission lawyer so he's setting the standard for all of the other lawyers yet

02:34:01.740 to come in terms of these witnesses so i'm not sure the names i was at a hotel that weekend

02:34:07.540 and what when did you begin staying in that hotel it would have been on the thursday night before

02:34:14.920 the that weekend 17th maybe not sure okay and mr deering uh on the 18th uh and i'm gonna

02:34:25.680 stick with you for a few questions uh on the 18th where was the the protest that i understand you

02:34:32.480 participated in do you recall where in the downtown it was so i was at the memorial uh that day around

02:34:38.060 eight in the morning i had my coffee i was congregating with a few different vets and then

02:34:43.180 just i would say north or south my navigation's a little off but uh just about 100 feet from the

02:34:51.180 memorial is where the police started to line up and that's when the call out went and all the

02:34:56.820 veterans or there was about 20 or so of us we lined right up we linked arms and the consensus

02:35:03.040 was we're going to stay there and try and protect the Canadian people. And why did you want to do

02:35:07.340 that? It was our duty. When I joined the military I swore on an oath to protect people. I went to a

02:35:14.680 war zone to protect those people and I never thought that someday I would have to do it on

02:35:18.120 Canadian soil, but I did, and I will again. I would. Were you told at any time or informed at

02:35:25.800 any time that you couldn't be there or it was unlawful for you to be there? No.

02:35:39.460 And I understand that you were arrested on the 18th, is that correct? I was. Can you tell us

02:35:46.500 briefly how you came to be arrested? Sure. So I remember about 1245 is when we we lined up we

02:35:55.100 linked arms 1225 sorry and we had a chance before the police decided to make their push we had about

02:36:03.820 15 minutes to kind of converse and I had the chance to speak with four or five officers I let them

02:36:08.540 know who I was why we were there what we were doing the fact that we were peaceful I showed

02:36:14.340 them the photo of my crater of my bomb just to give them some reference so that if they did

02:36:18.620 arrest me and I and I again I mentioned to every police when I talked to you I said if you arrest

02:36:22.940 me keep in mind I have a really bad back please um sorry if you can repeat the question again

02:36:28.500 sorry just asking about uh how you came to be arrested okay right so uh I had a chance to

02:36:34.740 converse with the police um multiple police after I spoke with them they would move down the lines

02:36:41.200 they didn't want to really have anything to do with me finally there was one member that came up

02:36:46.400 uh he didn't know my situation as much i did have a chance to refresh to give him my uh reference

02:36:52.080 points my photo and my story quickly but um about 45 minutes into the pushing um i kind of

02:36:58.720 underestimated the amount of physical toll it would take on my body after 14 years of uh not

02:37:04.800 being able to do what i could do when i was 20. my muscles and my body was just i i had given up i

02:37:10.640 I was finished, and the video would show that I succumbed.

02:37:15.000 I gave myself to the police, and as the police took me down,

02:37:20.060 again, he knew he kneed me in my side, kicked me in my back.

02:37:25.740 I was laying down.

02:37:27.160 I was in the fetal position on my back.

02:37:29.380 He kicked me in my ankle, in my foot.

02:37:32.400 As I was laying down, I had my hands completely up.

02:37:35.420 I'm saying I'm very peaceful.

02:37:36.740 I'm peaceful.

02:37:37.320 I'm not resisting.

02:37:38.040 I was then punched four or five times in my head.

02:37:41.560 I had a knee on my back to keep myself down.

02:37:45.300 I was on the ground for one and a half to two minutes.

02:37:48.260 My hands were zip-tied.

02:37:50.360 The officers slowly picked me up, and then we slowly proceeded to the processing line.

02:37:58.920 We get to the processing line.

02:38:01.260 The day was minus 20.

02:38:03.440 I had no gloves on.

02:38:04.660 at the beginning of the processing line we were standing there and i had asked so and sorry

02:38:12.320 the duration of the processing line was one and a half to two hours so i was standing there in the

02:38:18.280 cold for two hours i asked the policeman who was on both sides of me i said do you mind you know

02:38:23.720 my conditions is it okay if i sit or kneel because i'm in chronic pain it was obvious my face was

02:38:29.060 flush and I cried multiple times and I don't cry ever. I was, it was the worst pain I had felt

02:38:35.280 since I'd been blown up. The fact that I couldn't sit or stand was to me cruel and unusual punishment.

02:38:43.540 We would go 15, 20 minutes without even moving. I also asked if I could have my medication in

02:38:49.380 which I had my prescription and my medication on my person so that if I needed it, I could ask.

02:38:53.980 I asked, and I was denied my medication to comfort my duress.

02:39:00.360 We finished the processing line after about two hours.

02:39:04.560 Police took my, on the whiteboard, they put down my name, they took my photo.

02:39:11.160 They then placed me in the back of the squad car.

02:39:13.700 They read me what I was being charged with, which was mischief, public mischief, and,

02:39:22.500 sorry, I forget another one.

02:39:23.980 public mischief and

02:39:25.260 sorry one minute

02:39:28.260 take your time

02:39:29.720 you know what this is brutal this is difficult to watch

02:39:34.340 but at the same time people need to hear

02:39:36.360 public mischief and

02:39:40.040 it's okay Mr.

02:39:42.580 your statement is in the record so if I could actually move you back

02:39:46.260 in time

02:39:46.780 what were you

02:39:49.340 and your group doing

02:39:51.420 just before you were arrested

02:39:53.860 What activity were you taking part in?

02:39:56.580 So we were, again, we were linking arms.

02:39:58.600 We were standing.

02:39:59.680 We were not moving.

02:40:00.360 We were not progressing, moving forward.

02:40:04.000 We were telling the cops what they were doing.

02:40:06.020 It was an unlawful order.

02:40:08.740 We had every right to be there under our tribal rights and freedoms to peacefully protest, which we were doing.

02:40:16.020 They had no right to do what they did.

02:40:17.800 and at any time either before you were arrested or after were you given the option to

02:40:27.000 go to another place in ottawa to protest no

02:40:35.160 okay miss hope braun uh i think as as we said earlier i understand you were protesting

02:40:40.840 on february 19th in ottawa where was that protest that you participated in um it was

02:40:47.400 All, I guess at that point, we couldn't really go past Chateau Laurier.

02:40:52.280 So I, for the most part, spent most of the protest up on Wellington right in front of the Parliament building.

02:40:59.220 I did walk around and see the sights a little bit.

02:41:03.020 But that day, it was from Chateau Laurier to down Wellington.

02:41:14.840 and then I was arrested when they had cleared Wellington

02:41:19.100 and protesters were then on the side street,

02:41:22.880 so I was on O'Connor.

02:41:25.820 And were you told before or any point that day

02:41:29.680 or before or after your arrest

02:41:31.260 that you were not allowed to be where you were?

02:41:42.220 Not, no, not in that effect, no.

02:41:44.840 there was no the obviously we got the sense that we weren't welcome there but i wasn't directly

02:41:57.000 told that i wasn't allowed to be there and in that way that it wasn't lawful for me to be there

02:42:02.720 what gave you the sense that you weren't welcome there um the massive amount of police um and

02:42:09.400 their presence was was taking over the city it seemed so it's and that the news

02:42:20.020 media and Justin Trudeau's words and you know like more that I wasn't welcome

02:42:26.980 there not that it I shouldn't that it was not lawful for me to be there I

02:42:32.200 believed it was lawful for me to be there and I didn't hear otherwise and

02:42:37.000 And either before or after your arrest, were you given the opportunity or were you told about any kind of place you could go in Ottawa to peacefully protest?

02:42:45.740 No, there was no place provided or planned for us to go.

02:42:52.760 And not only that, but afterwards, people were still coming from across the country and places like Arm Pryor, they were assembling there.

02:43:06.040 and the owner of that property was threatened with fines if he didn't have us disperse.

02:43:12.380 So it wasn't even that we weren't welcome in Ottawa,

02:43:15.240 we weren't even welcome to assemble an hour outside of Ottawa.

02:43:19.180 So it extended beyond that red zone, in my opinion, in my experience.

02:43:24.480 And how did you come to be arrested? Can you tell us about that?

02:43:27.320 so when police had effectively removed everyone from wellington street they had all the streets

02:43:41.800 with the trucks on them at this point and i was on o'connor and i had a bit of hope that they

02:43:50.440 would stop there because we were remaining peaceful as protesters we were there from

02:43:56.220 all over the country, and there was a man who had the Charter of Rights, or the, I guess

02:44:05.760 it was the Bill of Rights, it was a document, they look the same and they both represent

02:44:10.400 human rights, and so I took three copies of that, and there was three different police

02:44:18.840 units it seemed, they had different types of uniforms, so they appeared to be, so I

02:44:24.460 I spoke to each unit and I said,

02:44:28.960 you may have been able to justify this up until this point,

02:44:31.800 but if you keep moving forward

02:44:36.080 and you onto the people,

02:44:39.840 because we're just the people now,

02:44:41.040 that you have the trucks,

02:44:43.440 you will be trampling our charter of rights with your boots.

02:44:47.520 And I put it down in front of each one of them

02:44:51.460 and in the middle of the street,

02:44:54.200 knelt down and in front of the charter and I told the police officers that if they move

02:45:04.960 forward I'm willing to not resist arrest and I won't move at that point so that that was

02:45:13.980 my line in the sand.

02:45:19.020 And just coming back to Mr. Deering, you had mentioned just before your arrest,

02:45:24.480 you said something about an unlawful order.

02:45:27.260 I just wanted you to clarify what were you referring to?

02:45:31.020 What was the unlawful order?

02:45:43.620 Take your time.

02:45:45.120 Sorry?

02:45:45.780 Can you repeat the question again?

02:45:46.640 Sorry.

02:45:46.740 You had mentioned an unlawful order, and I just wanted you to clarify what you were referring to.

02:45:58.420 Sorry, I'm just having a bit of a brain fog at a moment.

02:46:01.140 So I think the context was I had asked you why you were there, and you said that you were there.

02:46:09.920 I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I understood it to be sort of in defiance of an unlawful order,

02:46:15.940 or you weren't leaving because of an unlawful order from what i understand is a mandate is just

02:46:20.180 it's just that it's a mandate it's not a law we didn't we didn't vote on it the people didn't want

02:46:24.660 it it was pushed upon us and i felt it was unlawful i don't know if he's talking about

02:46:30.980 mandates or the the mandate was the the emergency act it was the emergencies act sorry

02:46:39.700 and and for the panel um can you can you just tell us uh what what was the impact of these events on

02:46:49.480 you sorry is that sorry can you say it again was that for me what was the impact of these

02:46:55.580 of these events of the impacts of the years for the past two years sorry on on the events in

02:47:01.700 Ottawa I mean it's in Ottawa sorry I just need a minute so for me the impacts

02:47:14.840 where I was already I've always been concerned about our our government

02:47:29.500 overreach and and we have to keep an eye on our government that's what our duty

02:47:33.680 as people the citizens of the country are is to be politically active and and

02:47:37.480 involved and aware of what's going on and over the years I'm just increasingly

02:47:42.540 starting to lose faith in the institutions and what you know we say is

02:47:49.280 is we are we are Canadian we're a democracy we we attract people from all

02:47:54.580 over the world because this is a place where we have rights and freedoms and

02:47:59.100 And to me, the impact was that it was evident to me in a very clear way and seen among the entire world that the Canadian government is not acting on the, is not, this is my opinion, obviously,

02:48:24.780 not acting according

02:48:27.320 to what we mandated it to

02:48:28.940 it's not

02:48:30.860 protecting us, it's not

02:48:33.120 upholding

02:48:35.420 its

02:48:35.980 job, it's not doing

02:48:39.400 its job and

02:48:40.660 to me it just broke any illusion of that

02:48:43.540 and at the same time I think it's important that

02:48:45.380 we see that as

02:48:47.300 Canadians and the world so that we can fix it

02:48:49.220 so that we can make it better and we

02:48:50.940 need to kind of keep that in check

02:48:52.780 You know, it's the nature of being in a world and filled with people.

02:48:59.940 You have to balance it out.

02:49:02.020 And Mr. Dering, did you want to answer that as well?

02:49:04.940 Can you repeat the question one last time?

02:49:06.340 I'm wondering what the impact of your experience in Ottawa was and how it ended on you as a person.

02:49:14.000 It's such a loaded question.

02:49:15.720 I'm sorry.

02:49:16.140 There's so many emotions going on in my head.

02:49:17.580 In the last two years, it's just been constant persecution after persecution,

02:49:23.760 and I find that when the government has a role,

02:49:28.860 but when they want to get into your lives and tell you who you can see,

02:49:32.120 when you can see them, and dictate everything about your life,

02:49:35.580 and when they get too intrusive, the overreach for me was just too much.

02:49:43.060 I had to be an auto. It was my duty. I had no choice.

02:49:47.580 Yes, Ms. O'Brien.

02:49:50.980 More personally, the impact for me is, after speaking to a therapist, just clear signs

02:50:01.220 of PTSD-like symptoms around what happened, and my whole life was really turned upside

02:50:11.360 down from from that time um forward and um has impacted my life it's a completely different life

02:50:22.080 now before and after that day so okay and um i'd just like to close out with the panel i'm gonna

02:50:29.520 ask both of you let's let's start with miss hope braun um is there anything uh that i didn't ask

02:50:34.880 you about that you wanted to say that we didn't get to talk about

02:50:41.360 I don't think so.

02:50:48.200 Good.

02:50:48.880 Thank you.

02:50:49.620 Mr. Dearing?

02:50:53.860 If I could, I'd like to speak directly to you, sir.

02:50:55.960 I think I'd like to ask you, and as a veteran, I'm asking you that this never happens again.

02:51:01.540 You have the power of a whole country behind your opinion.

02:51:05.420 please use it to protect the canadian people from this kind of misbehavior from this government

02:51:16.300 towards its people ever again please thank you thank you those are all my questions wow okay

02:51:25.500 wow wow

02:51:28.220 um we i think it's the ottawa police service is going to go first

02:51:34.520 okay this is going to be rough you guys this is going to be rough

02:51:39.980 this is going to be rough

02:51:45.740 i hope maggie and and chris are prepared for this

02:51:53.860 david mitchakovsky i'm counsel for the ottawa police good afternoon uh mr deering

02:52:01.520 Good afternoon, Ms. Hope Braun. Mr. Deering, you were looking at a statement that you had in front of you, and that's the document that's called Canada Freedom Rights Movement Statement of Chris Deering.

02:52:22.800 I don't remember that. Sorry.

02:52:24.820 You have a document in front of you.

02:52:27.160 these are just my notes sorry they're so i can reference uh because my traumatic brain injury i

02:52:31.640 need some things to reference so sure i just want to see what those notes are is it is it the same

02:52:37.720 as your statement that you were referring to yes it's in there yes right and so what it is it's a

02:52:45.320 document uh we can put it up on the screen but i think you have it in front of you it's called

02:52:50.840 Canada Freedom Rights Movement Statement of Chris Dearing.

02:52:55.120 Is that right?

02:52:56.320 I'm not sure of that document, sir.

02:52:57.940 I'm going to look, but I don't recall that.

02:53:00.560 Sure.

02:53:01.060 Have a look at it and tell me what it says.

02:53:03.500 Can you repeat the title, please?

02:53:05.740 Sure.

02:53:06.100 It's called Canada Freedom Rights Movement Statement of Chris Dearing.

02:53:12.860 Perhaps we can put it up on the screen so you can see.

02:53:17.500 If you can put it on the screen, sir.

02:53:18.540 Sure.

02:53:18.780 Hold on.

02:53:19.060 I'll do that.

02:53:19.280 um i can't recall the number but i believe um council if it may be assistance uh i believe

02:53:26.080 that's hrf four zeros one five nine eight thank you if you could just um put that up so that mr

02:53:32.800 deering could see it is that what you had in front of you i don't have that with me sir but i i have

02:53:44.400 seen it yes so sorry did you have something else with you notes to reference sir these are notes

02:53:50.480 that you made when just recently so i can remember sorry okay um perhaps um those notes can be filed

02:54:00.160 uh at some point as well those are not notes you made at the time of these incidents no

02:54:05.520 they're personal notes he's trying to remind himself in front of you when you were testifying

02:54:11.200 but you had some other notes yes okay um um ms hope uh brown badger um i believe your statement

02:54:19.840 also says at the top of it canada freedom rights movement statement correct i don't recall the very

02:54:26.400 tops top line sorry um perhaps we could follow ms uh i'm sure i'm sure it is if that's what you're

02:54:33.760 looking at this is the hearing clerk just for the benefit of the record that's hrf four zeros one

02:54:40.940 six zero six this guy has no intention of that's your statement as well correct yes being polite

02:54:49.120 in any way statements say at the top canada freedom rights movement statements who put that

02:54:56.480 on them am i sure i'm not sure i if i can answer no don't worry that's questioning cross-examination

02:55:08.000 go ahead you don't know i would imagine it would be um the lawyers that were taking our statements

02:55:17.600 those would be the convoy organizer lawyer i don't believe so no okay it wasn't any of the

02:55:24.720 people at this table was it? I was speaking to them on the phone so I'm not sure I couldn't see them.

02:55:31.440 Who gave you the statement? Pardon? Who prepared this statement, typed it up and gave it to you?

02:55:40.480 It was uh I was um contacted through the Justice Center. Right and so one of the Justice Center's

02:55:50.480 lawyers prepared this statement and sent it to you correct uh it was basically word for word of

02:55:56.960 they asked me questions and i gave a response and this is exactly what i said to them on the phone

02:56:02.960 so yes and then they gave it to you and they typed on it canada freedom rights movement statement of

02:56:09.680 of chris dearing and of maggie uh dingman the original one said correct yeah sure i'll agree

02:56:16.960 with that right and that's the same uh heading that we see on um the statements of tom maratso

02:56:27.280 canada freedom rights movements but you don't know what that means

02:56:33.200 i do i don't know i'm not um somebody who i understand that words can be

02:56:39.600 titles for things. To me, Canada Freedom Rights Movement are four words that represent what I

02:56:49.080 believe I'm part of, so I don't know. Looks like a good heading to me.

02:56:57.760 See, what I'm trying to figure out is most of the other witnesses here were interviewed by

02:57:03.920 the Commission and then we have statements that are on the Public Order

02:57:08.600 Emergency Commission letterhead. You were not interviewed by the Commission's

02:57:13.180 lawyers to prepare those statements, correct?

02:57:18.280 I was interviewed by a lawyer who was here working on working with the

02:57:25.320 Commission so I don't know. These you don't remember and how about you Mr.

02:57:30.100 hearing everything everything in this is correct I wrote everything myself again

02:57:38.100 I do forget also who assisted with me that's back my traumatic brain injury

02:57:43.060 I'm sorry and neither one of you have criminal charges against you correct no

02:57:48.220 no and so you told your story to a one of the convoy organizer lawyers is that

02:57:54.160 right? The Justice Centre. The Justice Centre. I apologize. And neither one of you, as I

02:58:01.500 understand it, has filed a complaint with the Ottawa Police Service about your arrest.

02:58:09.140 Not yet. No. Not yet. And neither one of you has contacted the Crown to say,

02:58:18.360 hey, excessive force was used with me. I have not contacted them, no.

02:58:24.160 Why would they contact the Crown? You go through the police for that.

02:58:26.720 At this point, I've tried to contact the government so many times that I'm kind of going to, you know, it's very frustrating.

02:58:35.120 I've spent a lot of time trying to contact government agencies and have assistance and have not gotten anywhere for many years at this point.

02:58:42.280 so and um complaints against the police can be filed with um an office a government office called

02:58:51.000 the office of the independent police review directorate oiprd neither one of you filed a

02:58:58.280 complaint with them correct no no not yet and um the siu that's the special investigations unit

02:59:08.840 you can investigate situations in someone in which someone says they've been seriously injured

02:59:15.320 by the actions of the police and so i just want to be clear there haven't been any complaints or

02:59:20.840 investigations by the siu no not to my knowledge not to my knowledge

02:59:29.560 and um i understand um mr deering that you have some notes and you're going to share those notes

02:59:35.960 with me correct sure sure um and i understand um uh ms hope ron you do not have any notes

02:59:44.040 not here with me nope um and you haven't filed any notes with you your lawyers or the justice

02:59:51.400 center lawyers i provided them with um a letter from my chiropractor who spoke to the state of my

02:59:58.600 back afterwards also with a trauma specialist a psychologist filed a letter from that professional

03:00:08.600 as well and i believe that's all the the notes that i've provided them and i didn't see that

03:00:15.800 trauma specialist note in the database but perhaps i missed i don't think it was submitted it wasn't

03:00:22.760 so you uh did not uh give any documentation um mr deering i understand from your evidence

03:00:31.560 sorry that you were in ottawa on february 11th and then returned on this evening of the 17th

03:00:38.520 and 18th yes sir and at that point the emergencies act had been passed

03:00:46.840 correct sure and there was an exclusion zone you knew that correct i did you did

03:00:56.600 sure um and you knew what the newspapers were telling people not to go there unless you have

03:01:03.020 an exemption i didn't read the newspapers sorry i'm sorry i didn't read the newspapers or listen

03:01:08.780 to the news because they were lying constantly sorry and none of the sources on which you get

03:01:16.200 information were telling you uh don't go into that zone can you say it again sorry i'm sorry

03:01:24.040 can you say it again sorry i just yeah none of the sources from which you get information

03:01:28.760 were telling you don't go in that zone sorry i'm gonna have to ask you to repeat one more time i'm

03:01:35.080 sorry that's okay um um miss hope braun uh you presume that means it was a useless question

03:01:41.540 and were told not to go into that area

03:01:43.480 unless you had specific reasons to be there?

03:01:48.620 That's not what I was gathering from it, no.

03:01:54.240 You didn't turn on the radio, you didn't read any social media,

03:01:58.660 you didn't go on Facebook?

03:02:00.200 I knew that they wanted to clear the area.

03:02:02.880 I was aware of that, yeah.

03:02:04.620 And you knew that the Emergencies Act had been passed?

03:02:08.640 Well, they were still debating it in the House.

03:02:11.540 day that i was arrested so i wasn't really um what day were you arrested on the 19th yeah the

03:02:18.580 emergencies act okay it passed but it it was still being debated and it hadn't passed the senate

03:02:24.380 so and so um both of you you were in the area you did not live in the area he can't say passed he

03:02:33.080 needs to say invoked his wording is wrong it had not passed i had a hotel though she's right he's

03:02:39.920 wrong. It was in effect, but not passed. And you both, I believe, fell to your knees and refused

03:02:46.620 to move while the police operation was being carried out, correct? No, that's incorrect. I was

03:02:51.380 pulled down and beaten. Sorry. I'm sorry, I didn't hear you. I apologize. Sorry, I said I was pulled

03:03:00.040 down. I was not on my knees. I was pulled down and beaten. Right. You were on your knees and you

03:03:04.780 refused to move no i was i was standing up sorry i was i was pulled down

03:03:08.640 so he's going to go to police notes where they say something different obviously

03:03:15.960 we've got video bud don't bother trying mr deering you indicated um that one of the police officers

03:03:24.340 even told you uh to hide that's correct so he gave you some advice and in spite of that you stayed

03:03:31.880 there. That's correct. And in fact, you wanted, you believed as a veteran, you should put yourself

03:03:39.940 in the way of other protesters because veterans are better able to withstand what was about to

03:03:49.540 come, you said. I wouldn't say better able. I just said we're more accustomed to it. Most civilians

03:03:56.300 are not ready to be beaten um i was ready for it

03:04:05.100 it was me who was on the knees i'm sorry

03:04:12.220 volunteer nothing maggie you were on the road mr um deering mr deering correct

03:04:20.860 uh at what time yes i was on the road what's uh what's the question

03:04:25.980 You were on the road when you were arrested.

03:04:28.940 I was on the road?

03:04:29.940 Yes.

03:04:31.260 That's hard to say.

03:04:31.960 It was a lot of snow, so I don't know where I was on the grass,

03:04:35.260 on the road, and not sure.

03:04:36.980 And so were you, Ms. Hope Brown, weren't you?

03:04:40.120 Everyone was on the road.

03:04:41.400 Right.

03:04:41.520 And so you understand you're obstructing a roadway, correct?

03:04:44.440 Oh, brother.

03:04:47.100 Please, if I could ask...

03:04:49.360 Like, come on, this guy.

03:04:51.420 Like, what are you doing?

03:04:55.180 Actant. Justice Rouleau, people don't want to laugh, but this guy is making a farce of this

03:05:00.720 whole thing. Like, seriously. Everyone was obstructing a roadway that day. So everyone,

03:05:07.220 all of the protesters and the police, the police, obstructing a roadway. And the police were also

03:05:13.220 obstructing the roadway. If you think of it like that. And there were also announcements made in

03:05:18.220 both official languages, telling people to move.

03:05:22.540 Didn't hear that.

03:05:23.740 I did.

03:05:25.500 And you were there, Mr. Deering, you said 15 minutes before,

03:05:29.060 and you saw the police were looking violent and aggressive, you said,

03:05:32.760 and so you decided to stay on that roadway, correct?

03:05:36.200 Absolutely.

03:05:36.580 Absolutely.

03:05:37.280 Okay.

03:05:44.200 I wonder how this guy sleeps at night.

03:05:46.180 and you're both aware i take it i'm just gonna and he has the balls to wear a poppy

03:05:52.500 there is an online fundraising campaign for uh both of you run by a group called cafe

03:06:00.380 i'm not aware of that told just now okay derek sloan he's actually sitting in the audience

03:06:06.620 okay that's you're aware of that i am now i am now and i will be happy to

03:06:13.180 And, in fact, I see on that fundraising that he is fundraising for Chris Barber, Maggie Dingman, Bridget Belton, Chris Deering, Danny Bulford, and Tamara Leach.

03:06:27.240 You know all of those people, correct?

03:06:29.600 I've only just met them here.

03:06:34.540 Do you see Mr. Sloan today?

03:06:37.240 I do, yeah.

03:06:38.120 Right. And in order to benefit from that fundraising, I take it it's important that you tell the story that you just told, correct?

03:06:46.780 Unbelievable. He's saying that they're telling the story for money.

03:06:51.100 Can you say that again?

03:06:52.180 In order to benefit from that fundraising, it's important that you tell the story that you've just told, correct?

03:06:59.180 This guy is a scumbag.

03:07:01.520 I'm sorry, I'm not really very familiar with what you're speaking to right now.

03:07:05.980 scumbag very fast so I'm mr. Sloan is associated with the Ontario party I

03:07:14.380 understand right okay thank you very much I have no further questions thank

03:07:20.560 you both thank you thank you okay next are the convoy organizers

03:07:35.980 Good afternoon, Mr. Commissioner. Good afternoon, Chris and Maggie. My name is Bathsheba

03:07:46.020 Vandenberg and I'm counsel representing Freedom Corps and the protesters. I'd like to start

03:07:52.800 by asking you, Chris, a few questions about what happened to you on that Friday, February

03:07:57.320 the 18th, 2022. I understand that you were wearing your medals when you were arrested,

03:08:02.720 is that correct i was and did they get damaged when you were arrested they did um the first 20

03:08:10.000 minutes i had my medals in my jacket and uh with the shoving with the police at one point one of

03:08:15.120 my medals my queen jubilee medal broke off and i lost it could i call up hrf four zeros one five six

03:08:24.960 Just to, perhaps there are a lot of documents obviously,

03:08:35.140 David Michikowski, sorry for the Ottawa Police.

03:08:38.380 Perhaps before my friend introduces one of the documents,

03:08:44.280 she could just confirm whether it was something

03:08:46.880 that was uploaded last night for the first time.

03:08:49.780 I know there are seven videos that were sent to me

03:08:54.220 last night that were not on the system.

03:08:56.740 So if we could just indicate for the record whether that is one of those documents, because

03:09:02.760 I may have specific objection to that.

03:09:05.660 Okay, given the late disclosure, apparently, could you make sure you tell us beforehand

03:09:12.460 what it is we're going to, just so we can, if there are problems, we can outline them

03:09:17.460 in detail?

03:09:18.460 Yes, Mr. Commissioner.

03:09:20.080 I can confirm to my friend that I'm going to refer to a video

03:09:23.520 that was presented in the document list by the Commission.

03:09:29.200 And it is a video of the arrest of Chris Deary.

03:09:33.900 Just so that we're clear, that would be what was produced in the last couple days, correct?

03:09:41.020 No, it was produced a while ago, my friend,

03:09:43.840 and it was produced as part of the list by the Commission.

03:09:48.240 Okay, we'll address that later.

03:09:49.800 thank you thank you mr click the numbers again uh for this video or hrf okay you got it thank you

03:09:57.800 this is gonna be awesome here we go show us show us

03:10:05.880 why aren't they showing us

03:10:19.800 We can pause the video.

03:10:30.180 Thank you.

03:10:31.740 Chris, can you confirm that that is you

03:10:33.460 that's being thrown to the ground

03:10:35.620 and beaten by the police?

03:10:37.080 Yes, it is.

03:10:38.020 I'm not sure about that question.

03:10:40.980 Let's be a little careful with how we do that, please.

03:10:45.980 Can you confirm that's you, Chris?

03:10:48.100 Excuse me?

03:10:48.460 can you confirm that is you in the video it is me thank you now i'd like to ask you maggie a few

03:10:55.200 questions about what happened to you on saturday february the 19th uh 2022 and i'd like to bring

03:11:01.300 that is document this is a video that i did uh disclose yesterday and it's a video of the

03:11:09.240 rather as a photo it's a photo of when uh maggie was kneeling in front of the police

03:11:17.560 David Michikowski to the Ottawa Police

03:11:19.920 for the reasons I've already articulated

03:11:21.840 that should not be allowed

03:11:23.820 these are things that should have been

03:11:25.840 disclosed long ago

03:11:27.500 and we've had no explanation

03:11:28.940 I get it sometimes things come up at the last minute

03:11:31.860 but we've had no explanation

03:11:33.860 for why this was

03:11:35.320 not disclosed

03:11:36.680 okay well

03:11:39.740 let's see

03:11:40.640 it's already been ruled on dude

03:11:42.560 it's just a photo of

03:11:43.080 Ms. O'Brien

03:11:46.840 kneeling show us the video this time that's all it is and mr commissioner okay i'm not sure what

03:11:52.760 the prejudice would be but uh let's uh let's go ahead and the number uh the number for that photo

03:12:00.600 is um hrf zero zero zero zero one six one two

03:12:15.800 just confirming to the right in the green jacket that's you kneeling yes and the charter is in

03:12:23.720 front of me and there are several people also kneeling and praying thank you or what doing

03:12:30.280 however they're okay now i'd like to call up a a video and this is a video of the arrest of

03:12:40.160 maggie and she spoke about it and i think it is important mr commissioner that

03:12:45.060 everyone here sees it it's simply a video of what she already described and put into evidence why

03:12:51.920 didn't they show the video of deering being beaten what police graphic content get the

03:12:57.680 escort this guy from the room already that that's correct and it's also a video that was

03:13:04.240 uh available to the public at large um by the newspapers and can you for the record

03:13:12.960 explain why it is these things weren't disclosed till last night sir if i may pop in um unlike

03:13:20.480 some of the uh institutional uh individuals and and representations here uh we of course

03:13:28.800 have no control over witnesses they approach us we get put in contact with them um it's

03:13:35.680 we get the evidence when we get the evidence and we put it before you as quickly as possible

03:13:41.120 these witnesses have no connection uh to our us as a party uh they were folks that were heard about

03:13:48.720 and we're asked to put in contact with this is how that works sir it just unfortunately uh didn't

03:13:54.240 happen until i believe we even got here uh in ottawa sir i'm sorry did i wasn't i maybe i missed

03:14:01.520 it are you saying you didn't get this video till yesterday i understand that there was uh essentially

03:14:11.040 maybe best vandenberg can explain uh the background but at the end of the day i think we provided it

03:14:17.280 as soon as we could we didn't uh have reference to it per se i'll let miss vandenberg speak to it

03:14:23.360 yes mr commissioner that that's correct as i did only have notice of it yesterday

03:14:27.840 and i try my very best to share it with everyone as soon as possible

03:14:33.040 okay well let's have a look at it and see where we go thank you mr commissioner the numbers for

03:14:39.680 for this video are HRF four zeros one six one four and mr. clerk I'm going to

03:14:48.500 ask you to pause at two seconds so to play the video and then pause at two

03:14:52.460 seconds

03:15:02.240 thank you Maggie can you confirm that that is you in the green jacket and the

03:15:06.860 blue toque it's me thank you uh do you agree uh that the meaning because i'm going to go into

03:15:17.480 we're going to actually just let's continue playing the video

03:15:20.100 look at the cops standing in front of her with the club out right wow do you agree that that

03:15:36.840 appears to be a snatch and grab method snatch and grab meaning snatching and grabbing firstly this

03:15:45.040 is this is a little bit leading which i don't think you're entitled to do number two i'm not

03:15:53.180 sure this is a witness who can talk about police tactics and i think now you're getting into

03:16:00.160 something that's a bit unfair so i mean you don't have much time in fact talk to the police about it

03:16:09.040 next week the rcmp will be testifying appropriately i would like to uh call up a

03:16:18.880 another video unless i'm going to get adjusted to and lose another minute of my time it's a video

03:16:26.480 of maggie being arrested you don't need to have the smirk this is really very relevant to what

03:16:36.080 i have to decide how the arrests were actually carried out and where there are okay no complaints

03:16:43.280 now if that's how you want the police brutality i'm prepared to have a look at it

03:16:49.520 that came with the emergencies act for the both of you just to confirm that after you were

03:16:58.620 arrested that you were driven outside the ottawa city core and told by the police that that's

03:17:05.720 again that's pretty leading for uh for a phase you're not supposed to be leading your witness

03:17:12.700 were you driven outside of the that's sorry how is that leading if you want to ask the way to ask

03:17:22.420 i'm happy to assist it's you ask how did it how was it uh that uh what proceeded after you were

03:17:32.140 arrested he has to give her lawyering lessons we probably could have had a better so attorney up

03:17:39.300 there you were arrested i believe uh last time we spoke so uh when the processing line was finished

03:17:44.980 after the two hours of staying the freezing cold not able to sit or kneel and deny my medication

03:17:51.140 again i was then i had my information taken um i was in place the back of the squad car they read

03:17:57.940 me uh what i was being charged with which was published public obstruction and mischief um

03:18:04.420 So I said, I understood.

03:18:06.840 The police officer then left his vehicle for five minutes.

03:18:11.540 He came back, and he said, well, today's your lucky day.

03:18:13.640 You're not being charged.

03:18:15.040 I said, that's great.

03:18:16.260 I said, can I know why that changed?

03:18:18.380 He said, no, you don't need to know that.

03:18:20.320 So at that time, I felt it was my understanding that I'm free to go

03:18:23.340 because I'm not being charged with anything.

03:18:25.600 Then the next five, 10 minutes, they put me in a paddy wagon with no direction.

03:18:29.440 They didn't say anything.

03:18:30.060 They said, go in here.

03:18:32.000 So again, I mean, I have no choice.

03:18:33.920 I go to the paddy wagon. I'm there for 25 minutes. I don't know where I'm going, don't know how long

03:18:41.200 I'm there. Eventually, the paddy wagon does fill up over the next couple of hours. Then they drive

03:18:48.220 us around for approximately half an hour to 45 minutes. It's very hard to tell because there's

03:18:53.580 no windows, of course, in the paddy wagon. There's no concept of time. They then drove us to a public

03:19:00.440 works building that was 10.2 kilometers away from Parliament Hill. When they let us out of the

03:19:06.820 paddy wagons, they gave us our possessions back. They gave us no paperwork. The police officer came

03:19:12.780 out and gave a stern warning and said, you don't come back to Ottawa or you'll be charged. They

03:19:17.740 gave us all our possessions back. Most of us, due to the cold, our cell phones had died.

03:19:25.480 No one had any money. No one had any masks. We couldn't go into the building to make a phone

03:19:29.300 call. So we were strained. So we were forced to walk to a Wendy's that was, and I forget

03:19:35.680 the approximate distance. We had to walk from the public works building in the snow and the

03:19:41.280 freezing cold to a Wendy's. I had called a friend that I had just met prior the night on the 17th.

03:19:48.400 I met someone for five minutes and he said, if you need anything in Ottawa, and this is the type

03:19:52.840 of people you met in Ottawa. I met him for two minutes, five minutes. And he said, if you need

03:19:57.360 anything you call me and i'll pick you up right away and whatever and he did exactly that i picked

03:20:01.600 him i called him at wendy's i said can you please pick us up we have no money we have no means we

03:20:07.280 don't know where we are we're not we're not from ottawa it was just i never thought that i would

03:20:13.120 get dumped out of the sea like trash by my by the police it was i'm so happy that testimony came out

03:20:20.880 that you finally way over your time thank you i was just gonna ask you the same thing had happened

03:20:26.240 to to maggie just to confirm i'll be very brief so when um after i was behind the police line

03:20:38.720 it's all in my statement that's there but i i was thrown to the ground and um there was a

03:20:46.320 a lot of weaponry around. And, uh, I looked up and there was, there was a gun pointed. It appeared

03:20:52.740 to be at my head. Um, and from there I was taken outside the city and dropped off. And, um, again,

03:21:01.740 I was at a towing place where they were towing the trucks and, um, there was no shelter. There

03:21:08.820 no place to plug in your phone there was nothing and um thankfully people came and got us so yeah

03:21:18.340 thank you okay thank you thank you

03:21:23.700 ottawa residents coalition oh this should be funny

03:21:28.260 is she still ever good afternoon commissioner good afternoon my name is emily tamen i represent

03:21:39.040 the coalition of ottawa residents and businesses uh and um you've both described to us and we've

03:21:47.920 heard from other uh convoy participants that um your experience in ottawa was uh generally a

03:21:55.540 positive one? It was. And that you found it to be a peaceful and loving atmosphere when you attended

03:22:02.440 the convoy? It was amazing. It was the Canadian spirit. It was and even between us and the police

03:22:08.040 up until that those last days it was a wonderful experience. I'm going to ask that a video be

03:22:14.400 pulled up. It's COA50135 and just before we start it this is a video a compilation of images

03:22:24.800 that were submitted to the commission before these proceedings commenced.

03:22:29.580 And for the purposes of the record, the video was accompanied by an affidavit

03:22:34.080 with the number AFF70s and a 2,

03:22:39.440 explaining the origins of each part of the video and where it came from.

03:22:43.900 But generally speaking, I can tell you these are videos

03:22:46.900 that were taken by people in Ottawa during the convoy occupation.

03:22:51.840 So if we could play that video,

03:22:53.180 and then I would just ask you to reflect on whether it accurately represents what you witnessed while in Ottawa.

03:23:23.180 2

03:23:32.380 8

03:23:34.680 Thank you.

03:24:04.680 going along with we've come here to help get rid of people like you from your tyrannical shit you

03:24:15.800 you're a bully and you're so pathetic in life what are you gonna do what are you gonna do

03:24:21.400 okay okay you are so pathetic in life that you have nothing better to do than to enforce

03:24:27.000 Nah, shit. You know that?

03:24:30.480 Yeah, so, and that makes me feel good about this stuff.

03:24:32.980 And that's, it's sickening.

03:24:35.240 It's disgusting.

03:24:37.380 So now we're going to take this out outside in a query.

03:24:43.420 You will answer to God.

03:24:45.760 Yes, you will.

03:24:46.660 He will send you straight to fucking hell.

03:24:49.020 Come on.

03:24:57.000 Oh, that's loud.

03:25:04.860 What did I miss?

03:25:05.700 Trying to show Deering as a bully?

03:25:27.000 I don't know.

03:25:57.000 no

03:26:22.060 Oh

03:26:52.060 good morning one nine now this is david alderton it is now 8 0 1 and we just officially let the

03:27:09.700 cabinet ministers and all the people of ottawa sleep in are we gonna have that

03:27:15.660 let's give them a wake-up call boys give them

03:27:19.200 Music

03:27:40.640 It was loud, you've made your point.

03:28:10.640 Let's go.

03:28:40.640 I thought you had a question.

03:28:57.640 Oh, you weren't waving me down, brother.

03:29:02.220 Oh, is that a fraud?

03:29:04.000 I'm moving a fucking guy.

03:29:10.640 What freedom have you lost?

03:29:34.020 What freedom have you lost?

03:29:36.640 Tell me a freedom you've lost.

03:29:38.800 That shows the other side

03:30:08.800 Remember, these people haven't been able to sleep for 10 days, okay?

03:30:20.420 It's kind of funny, I'm not gonna lie, I'm not gonna lie, it's pretty hilarious.

03:30:38.800 Okay, so how is this relevant in this particular testimony?

03:30:43.840 Oh, is that Dearing?

03:30:44.900 Okay, so he's in a hot tub.

03:30:59.640 Oh, Ottawa!

03:31:01.100 God, sleep the Ottawa!

03:31:02.980 God, sleep the Ottawa!

03:31:04.800 Mighty, mighty Ottawa!

03:31:06.640 Mighty, mighty Ottawa!

03:31:08.800 almost out of the time yes okay well i guess we'll leave it there can i just ask each of the

03:31:32.040 witnesses one question please you still have it's it's still have a minute or two yeah no i

03:31:37.840 understand that it's it's been difficult to find an appropriate time to put this video into evidence

03:31:42.780 by virtue of the limitations on cross-examination so yeah if we could just finish it and i would

03:31:46.900 just have one question for them are you going to ask it

03:32:07.840 Well, that's obviously their greatest hits reel, okay?

03:32:37.840 I'm sleeping with people, but now...

03:33:07.840 Now people in the downtown are angry.

03:33:10.020 Oh, that's Catherine McKinney.

03:33:12.640 And I would just ask you, Ms. Hope Braun, as a mother of two young children,

03:33:17.920 if a spectacle like this was unfolding in your community, in your neighbourhood, in your front lawn,

03:33:23.080 would you feel safe and peaceful?

03:33:25.900 Given the events of the last couple of years and the actions of our government,

03:33:30.200 it would actually, I felt very safe there.

03:33:33.700 I didn't ask you, though, if you felt safe there.

03:33:35.820 if this was happening in your neighbourhood in front of your house

03:33:38.460 and you were not a part of this action,

03:33:40.040 would you feel that it was safe and peaceful?

03:33:43.660 Well, I don't know. Let me think about that.

03:33:48.000 Again, I'm just going to say,

03:33:49.620 given the context of the last couple of years

03:33:51.840 and the actions of our government,

03:33:54.520 I would be there with that.

03:34:00.660 Yes, if it happened outside of my door

03:34:03.600 and I had people, and I hosted people afterwards.

03:34:06.860 While your children were trying to sleep?

03:34:10.120 That would be okay with you?

03:34:12.600 I would take them to grandma's house.

03:34:14.880 I won't deny the fact that that would be,

03:34:18.380 that there was a lot of energy being brought to Ottawa.

03:34:25.000 But I asked if it would be okay with you.

03:34:29.420 It would be okay with me, yeah.

03:34:31.320 Mr. Deering, if that was happening in your community

03:34:33.500 and your front lawn would that be okay with you i'd probably join in yes thank you those are my

03:34:38.060 questions you're welcome okay next is uh the uh ontario provincial police thank you thank you

03:34:48.540 commissioner uh my questions have already been asked and answered so i have nothing further

03:34:53.340 okay next is uh council for uh former chief slowly thank you commissioner uh we have no questions

03:35:02.140 thank you okay a democracy fund jccf

03:35:20.220 hi mr. Dearing and Ms. Braun I'm Rob Kittredge counsel for the Justice

03:35:24.820 Center for Constitutional Freedoms Mr. Dearing I think counsel for the Ottawa

03:35:29.660 police service asked you a question about whether you saw news reports telling you not to come to

03:35:34.140 the protest area after the emergencies act was invoked you replied that you weren't watching the

03:35:39.340 news around that time because the media had been lying about the protests do you remember that

03:35:43.420 question yes i do um but you saw news reports about the protests before that time didn't you

03:35:50.300 i may have uh it may preclude some of my questions but did you see news reports that lied about or

03:35:58.220 misrepresented the protests all the time um did media reports suggest that the protesters were

03:36:04.540 aggressive they did racist they did violent they did while you were at the protests did you see

03:36:12.140 any aggression or violent behavior from protesters from protesters the police sorry from the pro oh

03:36:18.620 no not from the protesters no from the police us did you see any racist behavior while you were at

03:36:24.940 the protests no it was a diverse culture uh thank you uh miss braun some media reports and our

03:36:33.460 prime minister have suggested that unvaccinated people are often racist and or misogynist could

03:36:39.560 you tell me whether you saw any racism or misogyny from unvaccinated people or anybody else while at

03:36:45.580 the protests in ottawa absolutely not if anything if anyone had any of that there was a lot of

03:36:51.560 healing with that coming together for freedom from all over the world.

03:37:00.100 And things were a little bit rushed at the end of your conversation with council for the

03:37:04.400 convoy organizers, but you mentioned in passing that during your arrest, a gun was pointed at

03:37:09.480 your head. Can you tell me a little more about that? That's right. So from the video, you saw

03:37:14.200 that I was kneeling down I had told the officers that I was willing to be arrested and that I would

03:37:22.280 not resist and at that point they they I ended up on the ground with my hands in front of me

03:37:30.440 and a very heavy knee went into my back and there were several officers on me and because I caught

03:37:37.820 my fall with my hands and they wanted my hands behind my back they they kept saying put your

03:37:43.480 hands behind your back but I couldn't because of the weight and um it took some time at least a

03:37:48.140 minute at which point I thought okay I'm gonna dare look up and I looked up and there there was

03:37:53.640 a gun right up my head a long rifle gun which end of the gun was pointed at your head um it looked

03:38:01.000 like it was the barrel of the gun and who was pointing it at your head it was one of the officers

03:38:07.800 and I remember it was a more beige kind of camo all right well thank you very

03:38:15.780 much those are my questions thank you okay before I go to Commission Council

03:38:20.740 miss Beth Sheba Vandenberg normally the the convoy would be last because you're

03:38:30.180 the ones who they're your witnesses so which is why you can't cross-examine but

03:38:36.300 normally you come last so since I took you or you were taken out of order I'll

03:38:41.680 give you a little more time if you would like to wrap up

03:38:46.880 it's miller time pardon me if it's okay i'll just wrap up for miss vandenberg that's fine

03:39:08.320 okay hello hello okay and so i just want to ask you a couple of questions about some of your

03:39:15.120 other observations uh you saw short wrap up yeah so you saw the videos that uh my friend

03:39:23.440 put up on there yes yes all right and she asked you some questions about your opinions on them

03:39:29.280 uh other than those incidents and and first it wasn't asked did you observe uh those events

03:39:36.080 that were in those videos some of them uh but not the majority of them i didn't there's a lot

03:39:42.640 a lot of streets that i didn't see so right and two of the photos in there one had a confederate

03:39:48.900 battle flag the other had a nazi flag did you see any such flags while you were in ottawa

03:39:53.440 no never no all right and what if any conversations did you have with other protesters that

03:40:01.160 you might classify as racist or misogynist or any form of things that you thought were

03:40:09.120 inappropriate did you have any such conversations either of you never it was full of love unity

03:40:14.020 joy it was it was the best time after the last two years that we had had it was it was incredible

03:40:19.740 did any of them call for the uh overthrowing of the government of canada by violence no no did

03:40:25.220 any of them ever call for violence at all no uh did you see anything uh with respect to destruction

03:40:31.400 of property no thank you okay and commission council any re-examination no re-examination

03:40:40.360 commissioner okay well thank you for your testimony thank you lunch break you guys

03:40:44.680 we're going to be able to take the lunch break for an hour and we'll come back with our next

03:40:52.940 with this?

03:40:56.120 Is it

03:40:56.600 come back at

03:40:57.960 2.10?

03:41:01.620 1.10 Central.

03:41:02.620 For one hour.

03:41:04.400 Okay, so

03:41:07.920 there it is. Morning

03:41:10.240 testimony wrap-up from yesterday.

03:41:12.560 Tamara Leach and then

03:41:13.720 oh, I've forgotten her last

03:41:16.580 name. Maggie Hope

03:41:18.060 and Chris Deering.

03:41:21.040 Sadly, the

03:41:21.720 the video of Mr. Deering being beaten by the police

03:41:25.680 was not shown for some reason on the broadcast.

03:41:31.060 I would imagine the answer to that later on will be,

03:41:34.880 oh, I pushed the wrong button.

03:41:37.220 But I think it was done intentionally.

03:41:40.740 So at any rate, Andy Lee, the real Andy Lee,

03:41:44.360 follow her on Twitter, at the real Andy Lee,

03:41:47.740 has provided us with a link to that video which she put on her twitter page and i put in the

03:41:55.760 comments here so if you guys have found that go ahead watch that in the next hour if you find it

03:42:03.920 if you find the opportunity um if you've never seen it before it's pretty alarming

03:42:10.420 so this afternoon we have testimony from jeremy mckenzie from jail in saskatchewan

03:42:18.920 i think he's in prince albert i'm not sure if he's going to be in his cell or if they're going

03:42:24.120 to bring him to a special room where he can uh speak and then from daniel bulford the former

03:42:32.180 rcmp officer so that is the morning so what i'm going to do here i'm going to wrap up this stream

03:42:38.260 i am going to go and get a bite to eat i just reminded myself dude you haven't eaten yet today

03:42:44.240 so get something to eat um just kind of for the next half hour or so and then come back for the

03:42:52.440 afternoon stream so i will start a new stream you guys in about an hour i hope you'll join uh let's

03:42:59.020 see if we can crack 2 000 live viewers in the next stream that would be awesome i think this one we

03:43:04.420 got to 1,700, which is great. And if you combine them with all the other independent media who

03:43:09.280 are covering this, I think we're into the hundreds of thousands of viewers here, which is awesome

03:43:14.580 because more Canadians need to see this testimony. I'll be back in just a little bit. I love you all

03:43:21.720 and I will see you soon.

The Shadoe Davis Show - November 04, 2022

Shadoe at Nite Special Edition Friday Nov. 4th⧸2022

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