00:04:59.980guys how you doing welcome back so these guys should be starting anytime now uh probably right
00:05:06.100now as i've chosen to address you this is when they'll decide anyway katie telford is justin
00:05:13.320trudeau's chief of staff she's scheduled to be testifying this afternoon in my opinion
00:05:17.980she is the mastermind behind the prime minister's office everything trudeau does is carefully
00:05:26.220calculated by her she's the one with the connections to the media she's the one with
00:05:32.020connections to large business big corporations across the country she's the one behind all of
00:05:38.040the scandals as far as i'm concerned and yet she chooses to work pretty much from the shadows in
00:05:43.460terms of the public consciousness of our country we're always very quick to blame the politicians
00:05:49.920right but truthfully i don't believe the politicians really know what's going on
00:05:58.280i think it's the chiefs of staff and the top level bureaucrats who are controlling the show
00:06:04.380which is what i was suggesting earlier uh in this morning session i said look those people
00:06:09.060need to be cleaned out they're all political operatives and they all slant one way or the
00:06:12.720other mostly liberal these days um but anyway she will be cross-examined by brendan miller
00:06:19.300this afternoon once we get through the commission lawyer two hours and it's going to be interesting
00:06:26.260to hear how what miller has on her keep in mind too that gerald butts even though he no longer
00:06:34.520works in the prime minister's office is very very tied to what trudeau does and what telford does
00:06:42.040And she goes to him for advice from what I've heard from people I know in Ottawa.
00:06:50.340And so she calculates everything that happens.
00:06:54.540So it'll be interesting, like I say, to hear what Miller gets out of her.
00:06:57.800But I do believe also she's probably going to be the toughest cross-examined
00:07:03.320because I think she's the smartest person in the room, to be honest.
00:07:06.660More so than Freeland, definitely more so than Trudeau.
00:07:09.940So anyway, let's get set for this afternoon. I will be doing a show tonight. I didn't last night because of time constraints, but I will be doing a show tonight. And I have Derek Smith, the author of How the Prime Minister Stole Freedom from last year. He's got a new one out. It's number one on Amazon Canada already. It came out last week. It's called One Face, Two Face, Black Face, Blue Face.
00:07:33.900So the show starts at eight o'clock central tonight.
00:11:36.160So what C says is activities within or relating to Canada directed toward or in support of the threat or use of acts of serious violence against persons or property for the purpose of achieving a political, religious, or ideological objective within Canada or a foreign state.
00:11:59.020All right. And so in terms of the economic harm that you've described today, the reputational damage to Canada as an investment country, you'll agree that it doesn't fall within C, right?
00:12:14.400The activities relating to Canada directed toward or in support of the threat or use of acts of serious violence. Would you agree with that? Or is that fair to say?
00:12:23.100Not precisely. You know, if the direction of these questions is to ask me, did I believe we were acting within legal authorities granted by the Emergencies Act,
00:12:49.080If that's where this question is leading, then my answer is, yes, I believed we had the authority to do what we did.
00:13:03.180And I hope no one is surprised by my saying that.
00:13:07.440Had I not believed it, I would not have done it and I wouldn't be here speaking, you know, with sadness, but confidence that we did the right thing.
00:13:21.320So my question was whether the economic harm that you've described today falls within the definition found in C, which speaks specifically to the support of the threat or use of acts of serious violence against persons or property for the purpose of achieving a political, religious or ideological objective within Canada or a foreign state.
00:13:47.260Does the economic harm you've described today fall within C?
00:13:55.340It's a big question, and so I was offering an answer in several parts,
00:14:00.300and I offered the first part of it, and I can continue if you'd like.
00:15:35.560I rely on the judgment of officials who advised us and on expert legal advice.
00:15:45.760And I say that even as I am very confident that it was the right decision and confident in taking personal political responsibility.
00:16:00.040I can also speak to what I saw and experienced and believed that falls within the scope of the serious violence against persons or property point.
00:16:22.260But I do want to be clear that I'm not speaking here as someone with an expert legal opinion, but I'm speaking as a minister who made a political judgment and as someone who was also in Ottawa.
00:16:41.660So some of the things that factored into my thinking about it were, as I described in my testimony this morning, a real concern that we were in a tinderbox situation.
00:17:00.620where the economic threats and the threats generally
00:17:07.340and the damage that were being created both by the Ottawa occupation
00:17:14.900and the Ambassador Bridge did risk, I felt, at every moment,
00:17:22.740some kind of conflict between protesters and counter-protesters.
00:17:28.400I saw that and experienced it myself, just being a person who was in Ottawa.
00:17:35.100I felt it was a tinder keg that could be sparked at any moment and was therefore very dangerous.
00:17:41.380And although I didn't see it myself, I heard accounts of Windsor of a situation there, which I found to be very credible.
00:17:52.680I was also influenced. Can I say one more thing?
00:17:56.280Which speaks to this. I was also influenced by our IRG meeting on, I think it was the Saturday, the 12th, where we heard from the RCMP commissioner about concerns that there were serious weapons in coots.
00:18:17.620and that really raised the stakes in terms of my degree of concern about what could be happening
00:18:30.820there but also what could be happening in this sort of whack-a-mole copycat situation across
00:18:38.480the country. Okay. So my question was about how you understood the economic harms to fall within
00:18:48.220subsection or see the definition of threats to security of Canada and see. And as I understand
00:18:54.300your explanation, your explanation is it falls within it because there's a risk that the economic
00:19:02.220harm that's being created by the protests could somehow manifest into actual threats of violence.
00:19:10.060Is that your understanding of how it falls within C? I'm going to object to the question as
00:19:14.760phrased. That's a legal question. I'm just trying to find out her on, you know, she's offered an
00:19:21.320explanation for how she says the economic harm falls within C, and she linked it directly to
00:20:39.100which I certainly think are important for us to think about and consider.
00:20:43.840and I don't want to mischaracterize your evidence just so that we're all clear do you see a link
00:20:52.420between the economic harm that you say was caused by the protests to Canada with what's contained
00:21:00.040in sea in terms of the threats or use of acts of serious violence against persons and again there
00:21:07.320um I really do not want to shirk my personal political responsibility and while this was a
00:21:18.500grave and serious decision we took it carefully and thoughtfully and I believed it was the right
00:21:25.100decision then and I believe today it is the right decision but I'm also conscious
00:21:31.060if I may continue. Of course. I'm also conscious that I am not a lawyer and I'm not
00:21:43.640a person who can give expert opinion on the precise parsing of these authorities.
00:21:53.800It was important for me to be assured that we did have the authority to act, and I received, as a cabinet member, assurances that we had those authorities from people who I believe were qualified to offer those assurances.
00:22:17.700And I don't mean to belabor the point. I just want to make sure the evidence is clear. So your evidence is that you understood that you had the authority to invoke the Emergencies Act. But in terms of saying there's a linkage between the economic harm caused by the protests with the requirement of the threat or use of acts of serious violence, is that something that you can't speak to?
00:22:43.780Again, Commissioner, this is a legal interpretation question that will be addressed in closing submissions.
00:28:13.560And if we can scroll down to the second paragraph, it says here,
00:28:19.080When the mandate was originally announced, CTA expected that upwards of 20% of the 120,000 Canadian truck drivers crossing the U.S.-Canada border would have likely remained unvaccinated by January 2022.
00:28:36.240Of the 40,000 U.S.-based truck drivers crossing the border, CTA estimated that upwards of 40% of these drivers would not be prepared to meet the vaccine mandate requirement.
00:30:27.580And let's just consider that if what the Canadian, if what the CTA is saying is correct, and the drivers are reduced by 20%, that's a reduction of 24,000 trucks in the supply chain.
00:30:46.160the challenge here for me is i disagree with the fundamental premise and this was something that
00:30:58.140was looked at carefully by minister al gabra uh and also by the minister of health
00:31:04.680okay so you you disagree with the fundamental premise of the canadian trucker alliance thank
00:31:10.800you um i'll move on to something else i just want to understand a little bit more um about what was
00:31:17.520going on in january and you you gave some evidence today and i think you told us that it was a it was
00:31:25.760a very intense month for you that would be fair yes that would be fair okay let me let me make
00:31:31.280sure that i understand it so um on the one hand you were preparing a budget yes okay and um there
00:31:39.760There was the issue of the Build Back Better legislation in the States,
00:31:44.520and there was the electric vehicle tax credit, right?
00:32:28.220And in the midst of this, there was this trucker protest of unprecedented proportions
00:32:33.420taking place across the country, and you described that as whack-a-mole.
00:32:38.460No. What I would describe as what we saw happening from the moment that the initial occupation began is copycat protests happening across the country, and that posed a particular national challenge.
00:33:03.460I see. I thought you said the word whack-a-mole, but it's not important. But what is important I would put to you is that the U.S. was unhappy with the situation in Canada, and they were seeing their own vulnerability in our supply chains. That was your evidence, was it not?
00:33:26.120The, in particular, blockade of the Ambassador Bridge exposed the vulnerability of the U.S. economy, particularly the car sector, to the Canadian car sector.
00:33:39.940And I put it to you, Minister, that the government felt that they had to do something about these protests, not because of threats of serious violence, but because your government was completely overwhelmed and you were under a tremendous amount of pressure from the United States.
00:33:57.380Okay. Well, we heard evidence from you earlier today, and you said that you were put into contact with Brian Deese. So he's the economic advisor to the president. He's a very influential player in the decision for the electric vehicle tax credit issue, and he actually contacted you.
00:34:17.060Right. And you thought that it was striking that someone of his importance, who's so hard to get a hold of, contacted you.
00:34:24.400I had spoken to Brian Deese before and since, but the speed and urgency with which he got in touch with me was definitely significant and relevant.
00:34:39.340And he was unhappy and there could be major economic consequences.
00:34:42.980What he said to me as I reported in that readout was that they were very concerned that because of the blockades, U.S. factories would shut down.
00:34:58.780Right, and we heard that the CEOs of two major banks contacted you, Canadian banks, I believe, and we also heard that President Biden, who is probably the world's most powerful person, or near that, had a telephone call with the Prime Minister.
00:35:26.280Okay, and so I put it to you, Minister, that the federal government had to show the USA that they were in control, and that explains why the Emergencies Act was invoked, despite the fact that, for example, the Ambassador Bridge was cleared and open to traffic.
00:35:45.020No, I wouldn't agree with that characterization.
00:35:47.340Okay, well, I would put it to you that the pressure the government was under explains why the Emergencies Act was invoked, despite the fact that a deal had been struck with the protesters in Ottawa to reduce the footprint of the protest in that city.
00:36:05.020Well, let's see if you would agree with this.
00:36:06.820I'd put it to you that there was no meaningful consultation with the provinces, not even advanced notice of what the first minister's meeting was about.
00:36:14.980and that's because the government didn't have time for it.
00:36:19.080They just had to make a decision about the Emergencies Act
00:36:22.340because of the tremendous pressure that they were under.
00:36:25.680Again, I disagree with a great deal of that characterization.
00:36:31.240One last question for you then, Ms. Freeland.
00:36:33.120I put it to you that given the overwhelming situation
00:36:37.980that the government was facing explains why they were willing
00:36:41.740to use extraordinary powers against their own people,
00:36:45.500despite the fact that no police agency or intelligence agency
00:36:49.780told them that there were threats to the security of Canada?
00:36:54.500Again, I disagree with many of the premises in that question,
00:37:01.580and I would be happy to elaborate, but it seems that we're out of time.
00:37:05.760It seems so. Thank you very much for your answers.
00:37:40.880And you said in your testimony today how important it was for you to hear from the leaders of the financial institutions what their views were on the situation with the blockades.
00:37:50.160And as you're also aware, the consultation with the First Ministers of the Provinces and Territories was held on the morning of February 14th, and that was after the cabinet meetings and the IRG meetings had been held.
00:38:02.840Now, consulting with the CEOs of financial institutions for their views on the situation is not required by the Emergencies Act before the government can invoke the Act for a public order emergency.
00:38:14.200But consulting with the provinces and territories for their input is required.
00:38:18.020As Deputy Prime Minister, don't you think that the input of the first ministers of the provinces and territories on the potential invocation of the Emergencies Act and the proposed measures would have been relevant information to have before you at the IRG meetings and the cabinet meetings where the invocation of the Emergencies Act was discussed and debated?
00:38:37.000Thank you for the question. And as a former intergovernmental relations minister, I understand it and I really do understand the importance and sometimes the challenges of that federal-provincial relationship.
00:38:57.800In this particular situation, it was a very complex, fast-developing situation, and each minister was responsible for managing a series of relationships and bringing that information to the table.
00:39:18.120My colleague, Dominic LeBlanc, is an extremely able minister, an extremely able intergovernmental affairs minister, and I relied on him, as did everyone around the table, to manage that relationship and to bring to us and to the table his knowledge of the views of the provinces and territories.
00:39:43.140and with your knowledge that they weren't consulted or about the emergencies act or told
00:39:49.320until the morning of february the 14th that the emergencies act might be invoked wouldn't you agree
00:39:54.940that the information on their views on the potential invocation of the emergencies act
00:39:58.900wasn't before the cabinet or the irg it wasn't one of the items because it wasn't available
00:40:18.220very effectively communicated with the provinces and territories
00:40:21.100and communicated with us what he learned from those conversations.
00:40:28.720that discussion that happened on the Monday was important.
00:40:37.040I wasn't part of that discussion, but it happened and it was important that it happen.
00:40:42.060And so the evidence that has been given before this inquiry is that the Emergencies Act
00:40:46.500had not been raised with any of the first ministers of the provinces or territories
00:40:51.780or any of the cabinet members of the provinces or territories.
00:40:55.640So wouldn't you agree with me that whatever information it was that Minister LeBlanc was bringing to the table, it did not involve discussions about the Federal Emergencies Act?
00:41:06.120Again, there, I would say this was an area of responsibility for Minister LeBlanc, who I do absolutely believe does that very difficult job very well.
00:41:17.740And I had confidence in how he did that job.
00:41:54.640And the section that I'd like to draw your attention to is close to the top.
00:41:57.580It's the portion that reads from DPM, which I take to be indicating that this is what you said on the call as Deputy Prime Minister would be DPM.
00:42:10.800And then there's a paragraph that begins first.
00:42:14.580And then the next little paragraph says,
00:42:16.220the RCMP has told us they have heard from protesters as they were leaving the blockades
00:42:21.700that they did so because their family said their accounts were frozen, so get the hell
00:42:25.640out of there. This is a much better and peaceful way to end things. Now, freezing someone's bank
00:42:31.680account without due process engages their personal rights, and it also engages the personal rights of
00:42:36.800the families that shared many of those bank accounts, individuals who weren't even at the
00:42:40.720protest. You've stated here in this document that your view was that this is better and more
00:42:47.640peaceful, presumably than using the existing legal authorities, which multiple branches of
00:42:54.240law enforcement have testified that this inquiry were adequate to bring a peaceful end to the
00:42:58.420protests. And indeed, they did so using those authorities. So do you still hold that view today
00:43:04.300that freezing the accounts was a better solution than law enforcement carrying out its legal
00:43:10.240authorities in the responsible manner that they do? The view that I do hold, as we discussed
00:43:18.880earlier today, is one of my very grave concerns about bringing these illegal blockades and this
00:43:28.680illegal occupation to an end was the danger that there would be violence and that there would be
00:43:34.820violence directed towards the protesters. I was particularly concerned because of reports
00:43:42.640that children were present and that was one of the reasons that I felt the financial
00:43:55.320tools that were put in place by the Emergencies Act were a better option. From my perspective,
00:44:04.180the job of these tools was to create a peaceful, nonviolent incentive for people who were doing
00:44:16.960something illegal to leave. And I think those tools did work. And so I would just remind you
00:44:25.260in that regard that the call that we're looking at this readout from in front of us was held on
00:44:29.720February the 21st. And so at that time, the COOTS blockade, we can scroll up to the top of the
00:44:35.260document. We have Monday, February the 21st, and you say, it's hard to believe it was only a week
00:44:43.760ago. We were on a call last Sunday, which was February the 13th, talking about this. So this
00:44:48.520is a call that was held on February the 21st, after the enforcement actions had been taken out
00:44:52.880at COOTS, which were done before the Emergencies Act was invoked, after the Ambassador Bridge was
00:44:57.460cleared, which was before the Emergencies Act was invoked. And while the enforcement efforts in
00:45:01.580Ottawa were well underway, you would have had the knowledge at that time that there was peaceful
00:45:06.200resolution by law enforcement at both of those border blockades, and that there was no violence
00:45:12.760against children. And it was a peaceful resolution by law enforcement in Ottawa. And so with respect
00:45:22.000to those comments about the fear of the prospect of violence i don't i don't know that uh on the
00:45:29.520timeline of february 21st are you saying you still had them then and you would still have those today
00:45:35.040no not at all on and so you expressed this view after no may i explain absolutely i didn't realize
00:45:45.120you were talking i apologize no problem it can be hard on the video calls um so on february
00:45:51.60021st, when I made those comments, it was looking back on the events of the week that had passed.
00:46:00.380And I certainly believed then, and I believe today, that the financial tools we put in place
00:46:09.240aided in the peaceful resolution of all of those occupations and blockades.
00:46:17.620The reports that we heard, the reports that were in the media, the reports from law enforcement were that many people did leave as a result of the incentives created by those tools.
00:46:32.020And then the final thing that I think is important to emphasize is we said on February 14th, we are putting these tools in place, so please leave now.
00:46:45.560so that these tools never need to be used.
00:46:49.600So any person who had their account frozen had due warning that they were engaged in illegal activity
00:47:01.140and that they should stop doing that activity.
00:47:04.620And the other thing that I would point to that I think did work well
00:47:09.380is the accounts were very quickly unfrozen after the illegal activity ceased.
00:47:15.560And with respect to the due warning, there were, as you acknowledged in your earlier
00:47:20.560testimony, accounts of families, individuals who weren't present at the protests that were
00:47:26.560Would your view be the same with respect to those individuals?
00:47:30.560Again there, that was never the intent to in any way affect family members.
00:47:44.560Certainly the consequence, the reality of people having joint bank accounts made that impossible to entirely avoid.
00:48:00.340But I would say that the family members whose presence at the protest, at the illegal occupation and blockades, caused the accounts to be frozen, had a very easy, readily available remedy with a lot of notice.
00:48:20.300They could have left before the freezing began.
00:48:23.080And as soon as people did leave, the accounts were unfrozen.
00:48:27.980Thank you, Minister. Those are my questions today.
00:48:30.340Okay, thank you. Next, I'd like to call on the City of Ottawa, please.
00:48:37.480The City has ceded its time to the Government of Canada.
00:57:31.880But the email that is reported on here saying, if the federal government directs us to, that is a misunderstanding of how the order worked.
00:57:48.600We were always very conscious that it wasn't the job of the federal government or the Ministry of Finance to name specific names or to even know which names were involved.
00:58:05.120The way the order worked was that that was to be a communication between law enforcement and the financial institutions.
00:58:12.720And I know it's not my job to ask you to agree with me, but I hope you will agree with me.
00:58:19.360These lawyers need to be there in person.
00:58:23.720Ministers shouldn't be involved in naming specific names.
01:06:05.660and if you see there the statement says the CTA does not support and strongly disapproves
01:06:18.220of any protests on public roadways, highways, and bridges.
01:06:24.640CTA believes such actions, especially those that interfere with public safety, are not
01:06:49.880how disagreements uh with governments should be expressed uh were you aware of that being
01:06:58.520the position of the canadian truckers association at the time yes i was
01:07:04.280and indeed if we could go to ssm.can.50987
01:07:11.080this is a letter dated february 10th 2022 again from the canadian truckers association
01:07:21.240and in this letter the canadian truckers association is asking the federal government
01:07:27.160to take action uh to address the issue with the border blockades or were you aware it's a letter
01:07:33.240addressed to the prime minister and uh minister al gabra but i'll just ask were you aware of the
01:07:39.320Canadian Truckers Association making such a request at the time? I can't pretend to have
01:07:47.140memorized the exact date and content of the letter, but I was aware that Minister Al-Ghabra was in
01:07:54.660touch with the Truckers Association and that they were very concerned. Okay, so if we talk about
01:08:02.380economic impacts uh for a moment um you discussed with commission council earlier the uh a bloomberg
01:08:13.500a briefing and as well a bloomberg article um if we could just pull up the news article uh com
01:08:21.340five zeros eight three nine please and if we could go to the third page of that document when it's
01:08:29.500ready. This is the news article, and apart from the reference to the 0.1% that you were
01:08:35.400discussing earlier, there are some reporting in here about other individuals that were
01:08:47.320commenting on the situation of the border blockades at the time. And if you look under
01:08:53.600Under the heading there, we don't need this, there's a quote attributed to the Governor
01:09:05.080of the Bank of Canada, Tiff Macklin, that was made on the Wednesday, so that would have
01:09:09.080been the day before this article, so on Wednesday, February 9th, in which the Governor of the
01:09:17.080Bank of Canada noted that we've already got a strained global supply chain. We don't need this
01:09:27.900in reference to the border blockade. Do you remember being aware of the comments of the
01:09:32.480Governor of the Bank of Canada at the time? I absolutely do, and that's in my timeline.
01:09:38.840I think it's in my notebook that when we spoke earlier today about concerns around achieving a soft landing for the Canadian economy, concerns about rising inflation, concerns about the rise in interest rates, which the Bank of Canada, with which the Bank of Canada would respond to rising inflation.
01:10:07.900That was very much on my mind. And I mentioned that we had already had a January inflation number, which was elevated. We expected inflation. We expected an elevated number. The number that we had in January was for December. We expected in February to learn of an elevated number for January. We were aware that the bank was concerned, and that made us concerned, definitely.
01:10:35.500Okay, so you spoke earlier about some of your concerns around comments by public officials
01:15:05.660And their views mattered very, very much.
01:15:10.760And on the White House point, if we look just further down this page,
01:15:14.160the last line on this page of the document,
01:15:16.540it's a headline from an article from the Detroit News,
01:15:19.980White House worries about Ambassador Bridge blockade.
01:15:24.240And that article, we don't need to go through the text, but it references a statement by then Press Secretary Jen Psaki commenting on White House concern.
01:15:36.260And I take it you were aware of those comments at the time as well.
01:18:14.260And I think that was the case also for the White House.
01:18:17.660And that was reflected in my Brian Deese conversation where he sort of said, yeah, you've
01:18:23.440been telling us about the integration, but now I really see it. And so you mentioned you spoke
01:18:30.360to Brian Deese, and part of that was setting up a call with the president, between the president
01:18:34.620and the prime minister, which then took place the following day. What was your reaction when you
01:18:41.060heard that the call, that that call had taken place the next day after the process, you'd begun
01:18:48.480the process to set it up? So I was glad that the conversation happened because I knew it was
01:18:58.060important and valuable for the prime minister to have a chance to explain the situation,
01:19:04.180to discuss the situation directly with the president. So that was good. And I had asked
01:19:12.220Brian, for that call to happen. But at another level, I was quite concerned by how quickly the
01:19:19.900call was set up, because the speed of response spoke to me about the degree of concern.
01:19:28.760We've heard earlier in this proceeding about a statement that was released by Governor Whitmer
01:19:34.200on February 10th. There was a second statement that Governor Whitmer released on February
01:19:42.20011th. And if we could just pull that one up, it's pb.can.401840. And as part of that statement,
01:20:04.560Governor Whitmer said, we cannot allow another minute to go by unnecessarily calling on the
01:20:10.520Canadian government to act. Was it unusual for Governor Wintner to be issuing two statements
01:20:17.260on the same topic one day after the next? Very unusual. And the content of her statement
01:20:30.920um was also very striking so she makes the point first of all that she is talking to the White
01:20:44.220House she's talking to the congressional delegation the people who we've been speaking
01:20:48.760about there is a real concerted push um and then I can't quite see it um here yeah this um
01:20:59.500we can't let another minute go by unnecessarily. That was also striking to me and speaks to
01:21:12.660how I perceived, and I believe rightly, the economic situation, that every minute,
01:21:21.460every hour counted, that the situation was deteriorating really hour by hour,
01:21:29.440and Canada was being very harmed. And so that speaks to why I believed, and I think it was
01:21:41.480the right judgment, we needed to act really swiftly. And if we fast forward then to after
01:21:49.500the events of January and February. Have you heard anything from business leaders since that time
01:21:57.080about the impacts of the blockades? I have.
01:22:07.560The, and I'll give you a couple of examples. PDAC is a big annual Toronto mining conference.
01:22:19.500Um, if you're in the mining industry, you will have heard of it. It's famous among miners and Canada is rightly proud to host it every year and to be the mining capital of the world.
01:22:30.720Um, PDAC this year, uh, because of COVID restrictions, it's normally held in the winter, but it was held in June.
01:22:37.720And at PDAC in Toronto in June, Jonathan Wilkinson, the Minister of Natural Resources, and I convened a table to talk about critical minerals and metals and electric vehicles.
01:22:53.540and one thing that really struck me was and we had sort of miners there processors and also
01:23:03.060car companies and car parts people sort of the full circle of that sector um one of the people
01:23:10.100there the canadian ceo of a japanese car company um proactively sort of went around the table
01:23:17.940everyone raised their points about critical minerals and metals and evs and opportunities
01:23:22.700in Canada. And this CEO, who, you know, is a guy whose job is to get his Japanese headquarters to
01:23:32.100invest in Canada. And he raised in his remarks, I think it was the first thing he said,
01:23:41.720I'm still getting questions around the blockades and the occupation.
01:23:46.660and I need to be able to say to my headquarters in Japan that this is not going to happen again
01:23:56.560in Canada, that they can be confident that that access to the US market is not going to be
01:24:04.180impeded. So that was very striking to me that still in June, even after our action, which worked,
01:24:12.960um there were still those lingering concerns um and it made me glad that we had acted when we did
01:24:20.980and not later um and then in just in October uh I was in Windsor um which we've heard so much
01:24:31.180about earlier today um speaking about the economy actually at a big car parts event
01:24:38.360And one of the car industry journalists asked me a question, and it's on the public record exactly what he said, but I'm just recalling broadly.
01:24:54.500His question was basically, can you offer assurances that something like the convoy and the blockade won't happen again?
01:25:04.080it continues to be a major concern in the car industry here.
01:25:10.380And again, I was surprised that someone in October
01:29:28.360But as you have seen from the transcript, they volunteered, a number of them.
01:29:35.820Two things. One, grave concern about the economic situation, and two, absolute concern, and I would even say frustration, that the tools available to them were both inadequate.
01:29:54.020You remember from that transcript, there was the point made of, we tried to get a court order, but it took four hours, and by the time we tracked it down, the money had moved to another account.
01:30:05.820And then also the concern, which I did take seriously, about the banks being concerned that acting absent some form of government instruction would put them in jeopardy, the Fox News point that was there.
01:30:24.820And so the banks were effectively asking for more government regulation.
01:30:54.820And the other thing that I will say there is it's not...
01:31:04.220in the ordinary way of things, for leaders of big Canadian businesses to want the government
01:31:16.160to do more in the economy. I would say quite the contrary. And at this particular moment,
01:31:25.880the banks had reason to not be so happy about things the government was doing.
01:31:33.660This followed our election, during which we had campaigned on the 15% COVID recovery dividend,
01:31:41.300which would be levied on banks and financial institutions, and we had campaigned on a permanent
01:31:46.160tax on the banks. So I would guess, and you could speak to them, but I would guess
01:31:53.020that if you had spoken to the bank CEOs at the beginning of January and said, would you like
01:32:00.080the liberal government to take a more active position when it comes to economic management
01:32:08.460of Canada? They would say, no, we wouldn't like that. And we would certainly like them not to
01:32:14.680impose these taxes. So I just say that because the fact that they were saying the tools were
01:32:25.100not adequate and you need to do more was particularly compelling to me because they
01:32:31.600were not a constituency that was inclined to seek strong government action in the economy.
01:32:38.780Just on the Fox News point that you just mentioned, in the Commission's overview report on fundraising, they trace the flow of funds through the crowdfunding platforms and show that there was a million dollars raised through the GoFundMe campaign that was paid into a TD bank account, and that TD froze that account on Thursday, February 10th, so before the phone call.
01:33:04.500And there's, so the Fox News coverage, when it says on the readout of there having been Fox News coverage that Friday of an incident, you're aware that was in reference to TD freezing that million dollars from the GoFundMe campaign?
01:33:23.860Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense that it was Bharat Masrani speaking.
01:33:29.160And Bharat Masrani, that would be the CEO of TD Bank?
01:33:47.720As we have also discussed already today, a concern about tellers being in jeopardy.
01:33:55.020And the Fox News reference there is especially significant because many Canadian banks have significant operations in the United States.
01:34:09.080And so having Fox News attack you isn't a problem only because Canadians might be watching.
01:34:19.200But if you have a big U.S. operation, it's a problem because your American customers will be watching.
01:34:26.560And I do think that was a problem that was legitimate to raise, and I was concerned about it.
01:34:36.920And so just briefly to conclude, earlier you mentioned that you had relied on certain legal advice related to matters connected with this inquiry.
01:34:47.220I just want to confirm with you, as Deputy Prime Minister, you don't have the authority to waive solicitor-client privilege on behalf of the Government of Canada, and you weren't intending to do so?
01:34:57.340I was not intending to do so, and to be clear, I was speaking about the advice we received, some of which I think the Commission has heard about earlier from officials.
01:37:04.740But what did you guys think of the overall testimony today?
01:37:08.820And I'm talking about this morning's session as well.
01:37:13.040Did the opposing lawyers do enough to throw her off her game to make the,
01:37:21.060middle-of-the-road Canadians, and by middle-of-the-road, I mean those Canadians who
01:37:27.580are disengaged from the process or those who just don't know what to think. Did the opposing
01:37:35.020lawyers do enough to make those people go, wait a minute, there's something wrong here?0.92
01:37:42.480And I understand that most of us are watching these proceedings going, oh, she's such a lying
01:37:50.640key if you can take yourself out of that headspace for just a second and try and put yourself
01:37:57.280into the position of one of these middle of the road Canadians one of these guys who just wants
01:38:02.860to go to work have a few beers at home and then watch the hockey game and you can actually break
01:38:12.820through to that guy for just five or ten minutes before he starts his beers his evening beers
01:38:17.180to talk to this guy and say look at this is the person this is the per the second in command of
01:38:25.560this country these are the people who are running the show here what would they think about today's
01:38:33.100testimony so far and keeping in mind that katie telford and some of her staff will be testifying
01:38:39.980next and you can bet they'll be whispering to each other and and all of that and we're going
01:38:45.060to have to go through 90 minutes maybe two hours of commission lawyer examination before we get to
01:38:52.420cross do you think that there was enough done today and brendan miller's cross examination
01:38:59.760this morning was in my opinion absolutely brilliant hostile at times even and i think
01:39:05.400it threw freeland way off her game and then i think the uh the lawyer for saskatchewan did
01:39:11.540some things this afternoon. It blows me away that these two lawyers, the one from Alberta and the
01:39:17.660one from Saskatchewan, are doing this via Zoom, by the way. I mean, when you're on a Zoom call,
01:39:22.620it's not the same thing as being there in person. The intimidation factor is just not the same.
01:39:29.160And it allows the witness to wriggle off the hook based upon communications problems. Oh,
01:39:33.820I didn't realize you were talking. I'm sorry. That kind of thing. It's very frustrating. And
01:39:38.240You would think that these lawyers working for provincial governments would be able to afford a flight and some hotel accommodations to appear in Ottawa, not just on Zoom.
01:39:47.480But anyway, let's go to your comments and see what you guys have to say.
01:39:57.300OK, Marianne says, no, Miller did great, but we needed more and more persistent questioning and cutting off her nonsense jabber jobber.
01:40:03.660Yeah, you know, there was that one lawyer working on behalf of one of the civil liberties groups who let her go on too long.
01:40:11.040And once again, that lawyer was on Zoom as well.
01:40:13.260And she should have had the fortitude to step up and say, OK, I understand your answer, but you're not answering the question.
01:40:22.900She did say, and I forget her name and which civil liberties organization she was with, but she did say, I'm trying to be respectful here.
01:40:30.820And that should be enough, especially when your witness continues to jibber jabber, eat up your time and give you nonsensical answers to a very basic and straightforward question.
01:40:42.820Yes or no. Did what the government do adhere to Section 2C of the CSIS rules for invocation of the Emergency Act?
01:40:52.940Yes or no? Well, that is a multilevel answer, and I'm going to have to give it to you in phases.
01:52:43.920Everything from very operational work, so we have teams of tour advanced people, as we call them.
01:52:51.780We have regional desks who coordinate with stakeholders, including different levels of government in different parts of the country.
01:52:58.780I'm sure my colleagues can speak to John, who is our Director of Policy and can speak to the policy team.
01:53:07.040Brian Clough is one of two Deputy Chiefs of Staff in the Prime Minister's office.
01:53:10.960The other deputy chief of staff is Marjorie Michel, and the other chief of staff, since she's not here, is primarily responsible for a lot of the operational elements of the office, ranging from human resources, because we are an office of roughly 100.
01:53:27.680And so the human resources side, the public appointments as well, there's hundreds and thousands of public appointments that go through government.
01:53:34.860And so we act as a coordinating body in many ways on the political side between ministers' offices as well.
01:53:42.180But our primary job is getting the prime minister the information that he needs, getting him the best advice from all parts of government,
01:53:50.120but also from outside of government that he needs to be able to accomplish what he committed to Canadians he would do if he were elected.
01:53:58.280And just building on that, I'll ask you to explain, Ms. Telford, your specific role as chief of staff.
01:54:03.320and then I'll ask each of your colleagues to do the same.
01:54:21.540particularly during this time period they did.
01:54:24.060And so it's all the sort of operational scheduling
01:54:28.340and day-to-day management you can imagine
01:54:32.040of running an office of that size, as well as coordinating between other ministers' offices
01:54:36.960as well. So we have a weekly chief of staff meeting that involves the chiefs of staff from
01:54:42.080all of the ministers' offices across government as a way of touching base and sharing information,
01:54:47.880sometimes best practices. And then the other hat I wear at the same time is being a senior
01:54:53.620advisor to the prime minister. And in terms of bringing him the best advice I can from
01:54:59.000everywhere I can, but also facilitating other people, being able to get in front of him and
01:55:05.260provide him with all the advice and the inputs that he needs to make the best decisions he can
01:55:09.240for Canadians. Thank you. And Mr. Broadhead, can you explain your role, please? Sure. So as Director
01:55:15.540of Policy, one of the key pieces of my role is to kind of work with the Privy Council Office
01:55:21.860very closely to coordinate the cabinet agenda. So as you've heard through these proceedings,
01:55:26.100there's we have many cabinet committees um and so we work with pco to to make sure
01:55:33.140items are ready to go forward on those agendas any any kind of remaining issues to be sorted
01:55:41.540out between ministers or departments so that's that's one uh we have a team of uh of 14 uh
01:55:48.500policy advisors so they cover um the all all the departments so they each have policy files so they
01:55:54.900They become, you know, the links to the minister's offices as well as to the content experts at PCO and other departments.
01:56:02.680And I think in that role, we provide advice to the prime minister on policy items.
01:56:08.540So whether it's items going to cabinet, other items such as the budget, our team will often prepare memos along those lines and advise the prime minister on the policy side of these things.
01:56:21.040Okay. And we're going to come back in a minute to, you mentioned PCO, and we've heard from a few witnesses last week from PCO. So we're going to come back to the interplay a little bit between your office and PCO. But first of all, just ask Mr. Cloud to introduce himself and describe his role.
01:56:35.120So, I am one of two deputy chiefs of staff, as Katie laid out, and I oversee five teams
01:56:41.280in the office. One is the policy team, which John described. Second is communications team.
01:56:47.060It's the largest of the five. They do exactly what their name says, press releases, all
01:56:53.080government communications, media relations for sure, quite a range of activities in that
01:56:57.560department. Third is the issues management and parliamentary affairs team. That's one
01:57:02.560unit. So everything that goes through Parliament, whether it's legislation, votes in the House,
01:57:08.540debates in the House, the PMO Parliamentary Affairs team engages in that space. But they
01:57:14.060also focus on issues management, which I like to think of it as the government has its proactive
01:57:19.560agenda, which is largely driven out of the policy team. And then the issues management team deals
01:57:25.420with day-to-day developments, whatever comes at us. So certainly the issues management team was
01:57:30.500involved in what's being studied here quite early on. And then there are two more units that I
01:57:35.680oversee. There are smaller units. One is a global affairs team. They focus on any number of
01:57:40.620international files. And finally, there's a unit that was created a couple of years ago
01:57:45.020to deal with the response to the COVID-19 pandemic. Thank you. And I should mention that
01:57:51.320the reason you've all been selected to be here today is you were all involved in some way in
01:57:57.620assisting the prime minister in responding to the events of late january and february that are
01:58:02.120before the commission certainly not just you but certainly all of you um so just going back to that
01:58:09.020that question of the interplay between pco and pmo i'm not sure who's best place to speak to that
01:58:14.960between the three of you um but mr broadhead you brought it up so maybe we'll start with you
01:58:19.140so what specifically what is of interest just the general relationship yeah so that the lines of
01:58:27.300communication and the interaction between the public service and the political side in advising
01:58:32.000the Prime Minister? Sure. So I'll speak to my experience because I obviously cover one part of
01:58:37.620that dynamic. And I interact with primarily two parts of Privy Council Office. One is the kind of
01:58:46.000priorities and planning group, which is Michael Vandergrift's group. And then the other one is the
01:58:51.140operations team which is now run by kaylee lebeck plans and priorities is really the the cabinet
01:58:57.620side and operations is more the the execution and uh of of that so there is i would say a constant
01:59:05.780flow of information back and forth they they provide us advice they convene meetings of
01:59:13.220departments across the government they they really kind of hold the institutional knowledge on many of
01:59:20.900these files. And so we kind of work very closely together to ensure we're aligned on the policy
01:59:27.180agenda, that things are rolling out. They also have great experience in terms of execution of
01:59:33.220policy. So it's, are things getting done? Are things happening that we brought into play? Are
01:59:38.380they still going? Is this still moving? So it's a very constant and a very important relationship
01:59:44.480for us. Ms. Telfer, do you have anything to add to that in terms of the lines of communication
01:59:49.580and in providing advice to the Prime Minister?
01:59:52.080I would just add that, and I'm sure you heard this from the clerk,
01:59:56.120who is who I have primarily the most contact with,
01:59:59.300is with the clerk and the National Security and Intelligence Advisor
02:00:01.820and to only a slightly lesser degree, the Deputy Clerk.
02:00:05.340And they're also the ones who have the most contact with the Prime Minister.
02:00:09.940And so the clerk meets with the Prime Minister on a very regular basis,
02:00:14.460often meets with the Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister together,
02:00:17.260and I will attend the majority of those meetings as well.
02:00:21.400And there is, and then she and I will talk regularly
02:01:03.980Okay, that introduction out of the way,
02:01:07.860we'll turn to the matters before the Commission.
02:01:12.180And starting with the very early days of the convoy,
02:01:15.480But can you describe to us when PMO first became aware that the convoy was a thing that was possibly rolling into Ottawa, what your initial impressions of it were, what your sources of information were, and the sort of pre-arrival early days?
02:01:33.260So the week of January 17th, there were a few interactions.
02:01:37.020on Monday, January 17th, there was a report sent from PCO to PMO, I think one or two people in the
02:01:45.780prime minister's office. It might have actually come from a minister's office as a flag, that
02:01:49.840there was some slow roll activity in Emerson, Manitoba. At that point, though, that information
02:01:55.400was not shared beyond that. It was just one of any number of issues. As the week went on, though,
02:02:00.460we started to hear more and see more reports of the convoy protest.
02:02:06.600On Thursday, January 20th, there was an email that came from PCO
02:02:10.780to a number of people in PMO that laid out,
02:02:13.120it was an update on the convoy protest.
02:02:15.640I think it was focused on, it named three places,
02:02:18.060specifically Coutts, North Portal, Saskatchewan, and Ottawa.
02:02:23.380And the update also included a press release
02:05:03.440There we go. Following January 6th events last year, which is a reference to January 6th in Capitol Hill in the United States,
02:05:13.080NSIA worked with PPS, RCMP, and Sergeant-at-Arms for a scenario planning for regular protests.
02:05:20.400Push boundaries and plan out for things like an insurrection. This has been done.
02:05:25.740Then Ottawa Police and PPS have an MOU, have done exercises for these types of protests.
02:05:32.040On the federal side, we have governance in place that is up and running, ADM, National Security Operations Centre meeting every day to ensure parts of the federal family are coordinated in efforts and can feed information through.
02:05:46.640So does that represent essentially, first of all, the content of that briefing as you were aware of it that day?
02:05:54.300So I wasn't a part of this specific brief, but received this email. And so I have no reason to believe it doesn't represent what was discussed there. But I would say it's only a piece of the picture of what we were watching at that time. There's a reference in there to social media chatter and disturbing comments.
02:06:11.520And by this point, it was a very significant issue and getting a lot of coverage in media, some of those comments.
02:06:19.820This email was sent on January 25th, which is the same day it was reported in media that some individuals who were planning to participate in the demonstration were saying they wanted this to be there January 6th.
02:06:31.680That's why you see, I suspect you see this in this email summary, because there were individuals explicitly referencing January 6th.
02:06:40.320And at this point as well, it was known in public that some people planning to participate in the demonstration had a proposal to replace the government by going to the governor general and the Senate.
02:06:51.900And it was it's otherwise known as the MOU.
02:06:54.960OK, so just scrolling down a bit again, Mr. Clerk, there's a comment at the end there.
02:06:59.640So you'll see at the end it says questions, question mark, Zed.
02:07:03.480And I believe that's a reference to Zeta Astrovis, Bill Blair's chief of staff.
02:07:09.060So she says, curious to know how feed into political level.
02:07:12.820From our perspective, feel assured having worked in the space of all work being done, but ministers feeling uneasy and keen on details.
02:07:22.200I'm wondering if you can help us understand what is meant there by sense of unease at the political level.
02:07:28.120i think there at that point there was a lot of conversation going on about what we were seeing
02:07:38.880and what we thought this was going to be and there were a number of updates coming through
02:07:44.060like the one you see here but we were also seeing a lot in open source and through the media which
02:07:51.300was very concerning already mentioned the reference to january 6th so that's what i think this speaks
02:07:57.180Okay. So is it fair to say then in Mike McDonald's email that we just read through, the message coming through is essentially, well, we've planned for this. We did some planning after January 6th and things are sort of under control and the machine is operating as it should. But then Ms. Astrovis raises a concern saying the ministers are actually pretty worried about this.
02:08:18.220So is it fair to say that there was some unease at the ministerial or the political level that maybe isn't reflected in the briefing?
02:08:25.840yes okay um so then just moving thank you mr clerk you can take that document down
02:08:37.240so that's the sort of pre-arrival state um is there unless there's anything else you'd like
02:08:44.940to add about what was going on pre-arrival but then the chronologically the next thing that
02:08:50.140happens is that the convoy arrives and doesn't leave when everyone expected it to do and then
02:08:55.220we head into the first week of the protests if we can call it that um so i'd like you to pull up
02:09:02.060now mr clerk ssm.nsc.can402941 and as that's being done maybe i can ask you to just describe
02:09:15.160to us from your point of view what that first week was like and what was going on from your
02:09:20.040perspective in in attempting to respond and the notes i'm pulling up here are mr clow's notes
02:09:25.100from a February 3rd meeting, which I think can fairly be described as a brainstorming ideas kind
02:09:31.220of meeting. But before we get into the specifics of the notes, can you fill in a bit of the narrative
02:09:36.540of what was happening in your thinking and in your office at the time?
02:09:45.780So we watched the convoy arrive, not only in Ottawa, but there was activity in Coutts,
02:09:51.600very serious activity that first weekend emerson we're starting to see some blockages there it was
02:09:57.680down to one lane would open up again some trucks would move but there was activity in emerson so
02:10:03.280this was already a national issue in the first week and we were we continued to see very concerning
02:10:09.120statements from some demonstrators including um from demonstrators and organizers that they were
02:10:16.160we're not going to leave until the government changed its policy but in that first weekend
02:10:21.760law enforcement was was responsible local law enforcement i should say and by the end of the
02:10:28.480weekend it was clear they weren't leaving so i would say concern had increased at the end of
02:10:32.400the weekend so we in the prime minister's office with pco with minister's offices with caucus with
02:10:38.320others we were hearing a lot of concern and we were discussing internally and getting updates
02:10:43.840and sharing information with each other as best we could.
02:10:47.180Before this meeting on the 3rd, which was well into the second week,
02:10:52.200there had been a briefing of the prime minister
02:10:54.080by the national security advisor and the clerk.
02:22:46.700It was, you know, I think, you know, my recollection of that conversation was it was really they wanted Ottawa to be the main driver of this
02:22:59.400and did not want a kind of multi-governmental approach to this at that time.
02:23:03.860That was the impression I got from that phone call.
02:23:06.880Okay. Were you having interactions during this time with counterparts in other provinces as well?
02:23:15.280Yeah. So, so previously, previous to being a director of policy, which I started in January, I was senior advisor with a focus on intergovernmental affairs.
02:23:25.440And so through that, I got to work closely with, with a number of the provinces.
02:23:30.640the three i was having most contact with one was that was british columbia because they were chair
02:23:37.420of the council of federation at the time so that was an ongoing active discussion generally and i
02:23:42.280want to be clear not just about this for example mr wallace and i were working on child care very
02:23:49.360actively at this time as well and other other issues were very uh would come up so um and then
02:23:56.680other provinces as well but the other part of our our pmo which is important in this is the regional
02:24:03.160desks uh who don't report to me they're part of the operations team they have g they have
02:24:08.840geographical areas of responsibility so they're often in touch with provinces and cities and we
02:24:15.000have kind of information sharing between us um so i'm in touch with them a lot there they let me
02:24:20.200know when things are happening i do i do as well so i know that from in those times there was a lot
02:24:25.000of informal contact as well as obviously from ministers and officials okay and we may come back
02:24:32.760to some of those interactions um but we'll stick to ontario for now uh mr clerk can you pull up
02:29:35.820I think we were trying to look for ways to work together.
02:29:40.820There were three levels of government, and it was a challenge to get these machines working in the right direction.
02:29:51.780I think this back and forth is a, my guess would be this is an outcrop of just a frustration around those levels of government and the two different approaches that I've outlined before.
02:30:04.540Fair enough. And you can appreciate that one of the issues the commission is looking into is the interaction between governments, which is not always an easy thing, but how it all played out here.
02:30:16.380Okay, so eventually, around this time, around the time of February 7th, 8th, 9th, Ontario became more engaged when the Ambassador Bridge blockade became entrenched.
02:30:29.300and um so we know that that has happened and i'll take you at that point to
02:30:36.300The witness summary, I'm sorry, Mr. Clerk,
02:32:29.760Why did it happen then and how did that occur?
02:32:34.700And I'll preface my answer by saying this is me not in the government of Ontario, which I did spend a long time in the government of Ontario, but I was not there at this point.
02:32:47.360I think it, in a sense, it started to become absolutely clear that we had to work together.
02:32:56.520so it was almost the the increase of of things happening so you add the ambassador bridge
02:33:01.880to the ottawa situation you have other things starting to happen around the province um
02:33:08.360in the windsor sarnia cornwall and you know i think it became clear and i'm hypothesizing here
02:33:13.960that um but we did see an evolution of their strategy at that time in terms of at the political
02:33:20.520level collaboration i think there's lots going on in other places that i don't want to comment to
02:33:25.480but just that's what I can specifically comment to.
02:38:02.500So I think as is in the interview summary, you know, we even went so far as to say, does Parks Canada have this kind of thing?
02:38:08.900Because the goal was to be able to assist if we could.
02:38:13.960Maybe if I can just add, I think that, you know, we also looked at, can we reimburse if they find them privately, can, should we reimburse that?
02:38:22.400So it was, it was, and I kind of pushed back a little bit on that this rarely happens.
02:38:28.500Like in a case where the process comes through and it goes to the minister, I've known of other cases where it was like, no, we can't assist.
02:38:43.360The minister's office will often flag it to us and we'll ask questions about, well, we explored this.
02:38:50.880And I can remember other instances where that was a case where we just pushed more to find other solutions that in the kind of narrow band of the RFA process, they may not have thought of.
02:39:03.880The request for assistance that we're dealing with in the commission, it's the only one that we've seen this pattern in, but that's fair explanation.
02:39:10.160Okay, I'm going to want to shift gears now and talk about what you were hearing during this process with various stakeholders and interlocutors, both nationally and internationally.
02:39:28.100We know you had a few conversations with a man named Juan Gonzalez, who's the special advisor to President Biden.
02:39:34.740Can you tell us about those conversations and what you were hearing from him?
02:39:37.820Yes. So I heard from Juan Gonzalez. He is part of the national security team in the White House. And we'd interacted on a few files before the convoy protests. And he reached out, I believe, on Wednesday, February 9th.
02:39:53.020At that point, it was a request to connect National Security Intelligence Advisor Jody Thomas with the White House Homeland Security Advisor to urgently discuss the Windsor blockade, but also other border blockades that were in effect at that time.
02:40:11.600So Juan and I had a bit of back and forth about that.
02:40:14.240That then led to a number of conversations, some of which you heard about this morning from the Deputy Prime Minister, but there were various interactions between the Prime Minister's office, PCO, several ministers' offices, and their counterparts in the United States in the White House and different departments in the United States because they became seized with the border blockades that were impacting them quite significantly.
02:40:38.220So you mentioned that we heard this morning from the Deputy Prime Minister that she was hearing a lot of concern from officials in the United States about what was going on and some encouragement, if we can put it that way, to bring a swift end, given the impact this was going to have on Canada-U.S. relations and trade.
02:40:56.300Were you hearing similar concerns from the people you were talking to in the United States and or in other countries?
02:41:03.580Absolutely. And the concern was not only about trade, economics, dollars and cents. It was for sure. But there was also a discussion in many of these conversations, including between the Prime Minister and the President, that both countries were facing similar forces in certain ways.
02:41:21.940For example, the United States also saw some convoy activity.
02:41:26.640I think it was dealt with quite quickly by the Americans,
02:41:30.120but they saw a trucker protest heading to the Super Bowl.
02:41:33.920There was one that was trying to be assembled to head to Washington, D.C.
02:41:37.460So these were part of the conversations as well.
02:43:11.820Not during the occupation or when the blockades were on.
02:43:16.080For months afterwards, I can say, including up until recent summits, though, this is a topic that continues to come up with counterparts from various countries.
02:43:26.540And the Prime Minister also had calls during the occupation with other world leaders where this was a topic that was coming up because they were watching what was happening in Canada and concerned that they were starting to see the same thing in some of their countries and they were concerned about copycat situations.
02:43:43.600So this has been an ongoing conversation with international leaders.
02:43:46.580I would just add as well, another feature of all of the conversations between the Americans and us, including the call between the Prime Minister and the President, was the fact that a lot of the support for the unlawful activity here in Canada was coming from the United States in terms of money, in terms of people, and in terms of political support from some of the most prominent U.S. political figures.
02:44:09.780Millions of dollars came in from the United States, according to published reports.
02:44:14.800Chiefs slowly announced that there were American citizens who had traveled to join the occupation in Ottawa.
02:44:21.480So that was also a feature of the discussions here.
02:44:23.740The flooding of 911 phone lines here in Ottawa came largely from Americans, as announced by Chiefs slowly and the Ottawa police.
02:44:32.020So this was very much a shared problem, and we were talking about it in that sense.
02:44:37.400We've heard about some of that already at the commission.
02:44:40.520You speak of the foreign funding, and we explored that a bit this morning with the Deputy Prime Minister,
02:44:45.000and it was found in the end that there were millions of dollars coming from the United States, from private donors.
02:44:53.420So there was no foreign state funding coming in. Would you agree with that?
02:44:59.160Okay. And we've also established that there was little information available to the government at the time of the convoy of how much money was coming in from the United States. That wasn't really information that was available to the government at the time. Would you agree with that?
02:45:15.620It definitely became more apparent as time passed. And I totally agree with you. It is cloudy and unclear. And it's concerning that it happened. But one example I would give, I mean, we felt quite strongly at the time that it was happening.
02:45:32.640and proof of that I would say is when GoFundMe paused the account you saw some of the most
02:45:40.040prominent American political figures attack GoFundMe and they didn't do that for no reason
02:45:46.400they did it because it was clear to them and it was it was clear to us that a lot of the funding
02:45:52.540was coming from Americans okay that is absolute speculation at best ask you about which is why
02:45:58.640haven't heard much about so far is political commentary coming from the United States. So
02:46:04.060you'd mentioned prominent political figures who are weighing in on all of this. Can you tell us
02:46:09.320about some of that, some of what you were hearing or observing on that front?
02:46:14.820The issue there, there were a number of examples from senators, from governors, from the former
02:46:20.400president. And the issue there is not that individuals and politicians aren't allowed to
02:46:26.440comment on politics and policies in other countries. It happens all the time. But the
02:46:31.640concern for us was it was direct encouragement for unlawful activity that was hugely damaging
02:46:37.540to the country, including the border blockades. So that's why I raise it here. And that's why
02:46:42.520the president and the prime minister spoke about it. It was the support for unlawful activity.
02:46:47.600Okay. Mr. Clerk, can you please pull up Mr. Clow's notes again? So that's ssm.nsc.can
02:48:48.220a little bit further so i think you see yeah there we go okay so first question we don't have a date
02:48:56.820on this because it's sort of there's some blackout before that but do you remember the date of this
02:49:00.920mr claude i believe it was february 9th okay so it's a meeting on february 9th and um this is
02:49:07.120various things happening over the course of the day why don't you tell us one meeting why don't
02:49:11.260you tell us what was happening so february 9th was there were a few conversations going on i
02:49:17.420don't specifically remember what meetings at what times, but I did write down, and it was reported
02:49:24.420to us, that Minister Blair had spoken to the clerk about the Emergencies Act, and that was in the
02:49:32.600lead-up, I think, just one day before the incident response group meeting where the Emergencies Act
02:49:37.000was discussed in some detail, in addition to other things. So this was just a report to us that
02:49:42.920that conversation had happened between the minister and the clerk.
02:49:45.420Okay, so around February 9th, we're getting to the point, as we know, where the federal government felt a need to perhaps intervene in the situation and bring this to a close in some way.
02:49:58.160So, as you say, Blair spoke to the clerk and talked about the Emergencies Act on the options.
02:50:03.760Can you just read your handwriting there?
02:50:37.580So I'd like you to tell us a bit about that meeting, the decision to convene the IRG and what that meant in the Prime Minister's eyes, in your eyes, and what an IRG really is.
02:50:47.740I think as the clerk may have spoken to already, and I think as these notes show too, the meetings were becoming increasingly frequent with added ministers and different departments getting involved because of the request for assistance amongst a growing number of blockades now, as well as protests in different parts of the country.
02:51:14.840and the occupation, of course, is now really entrenched in Ottawa.
02:51:20.300And so as we were having these meetings, the clerk, I believe, advised the prime minister,
02:51:25.920though it made good sense to the group of us at the time as well, that it was time to formalize
02:51:30.860our structure moving forward and that we were at a point of national crisis.
02:51:35.020And that's what the incident response group is put together for.
02:51:38.020It was a group that was, it was a cabinet committee that was created, I believe, in the first mandate of the government midway through.
02:51:47.560And it is chaired by the prime minister.
02:51:50.380It does not have a set permanent membership.
02:51:53.620It is convened with the ministers appropriate to whatever the incident is that is being discussed.
02:52:00.380And the thing that makes it very different from other cabinet committees is where in another cabinet committee that tends to be policy-focused and a little longer term, this is obviously dealing with something in real time and something that's crisis-like in nature.
02:52:18.700But the structural difference, too, is that officials lead in many ways the conversations within the IRG meetings space, and they are right at the table.
02:52:29.440So whereas at a cabinet committee meeting, the ministers would be sitting around the cabinet table and the officials might be sitting to the side, they may very well be making presentations and then the ministers would be discussing those presentations or they might speak up to make clarification when their ministers call on them for that clarification.
02:52:46.400At an IRG meeting, the principal presenters are officials. And so whether it's the NSIA, whether it's the commissioner of the RCMP, whether it was the head of CSIS, depending on the incident in past, it might be the CAF and the chief of defense staff.
02:53:03.520And then the ministers are called on by the prime minister to add anything that they might see as not having been covered, to add any thoughts they have on the basis of the information that's been presented.
02:53:15.580But they are all sitting around the same table, which makes it quite a different meeting than than really any other.
02:53:21.880And what's the purpose of that? Why is an IRG structured like that with direct input from officials?
02:53:26.500I think for a number of reasons, it's their expertise and getting it in real time to the prime minister and and to the to the ministers and things are moving very quickly.
02:53:40.640And it's so it's an efficiency and an effective kind of tool to bring everybody to that same table and convene the leadership of the different security agencies for whatever the security incident is and to hear from people directly.
02:53:54.920okay so essentially you remove the sort of the layering up and instead the prime minister has
02:54:01.260direct access to all of the inputs that uh that you may want or need as do all of the other
02:54:07.660ministers because they then get to hear from directly from the heads of the different agencies
02:54:12.000or law enforcement uh heads okay fair enough um so we've been through the content of many of the
02:54:22.000IRGs. One theme I want to pick up with you is something that was eventually brought to the IRG
02:54:27.880on February 12th, but has been a discussion at the commission throughout, which was the idea of
02:54:35.720whether the prime minister or anyone from the federal government should engage with the
02:54:42.180protesters and attempt to bring this to a close through either some sort of negotiation, some
02:56:16.220Okay. Here we go. So if we can blow that up, it's really hard to read, but you'll see a notation here, lawyer, arbitrator, mediator, author, suggested by Anne McClellan as a possible interlocutor. Again, I think it's a long shot for the reasons we discussed. Also, I noticed after we hung up that we didn't even spend a moment on politics and readiness.
02:56:40.260Okay, so that part of it may not be all that relevant.
02:56:44.160But can you, do you remember this tax exchange, Ms. Delford?
02:59:21.700So, Ms. Telford, I think what you've just been referencing has been canvassed before the commission a bit.
02:59:26.760And it's Mr. Deputy Minister Stewart's engagement proposal that he prepared with the assistance of Marcel Bowden from the OPP-PLT.
02:59:38.280And this is now the evening of February 11th.
02:59:42.000It's a text that Minister Mendicino sent to you saying, hey, there, we got some very last minute and thin paper tonight on an engagement strategy.
02:59:51.700from my deputy minister apparently socialized it with several people including the ontario
02:59:57.300government not me and we'll just scroll down and see the rest of the text please
03:00:03.620he says it's unclear whether pco or cmp or ontario supports this but he's flagging this
03:00:09.780as a concern about information flow and then he says at the bottom sorry but had to let you know
03:00:16.740marco so can you tell us a bit from your perspective we've heard mr
03:00:21.700Minister Mendicino's perspective on it.
03:00:23.760But what was your perspective receiving this text?
03:00:27.100And do you know why Minister Mendicino was essentially apologizing,
03:00:31.280saying, sorry, I'm just letting you know about this?
03:00:35.800When the IRGs began convening, just the day before, I believe,
03:00:42.320one of the things that was stressed at the first IRG,
03:07:17.760And I think you can see that in the notes and in the descriptions of it.
03:07:22.340They really, they are thoughtful conversations and they do come at things differently.
03:07:27.340There's no doubt they have different, you know, regional needs and we're facing different
03:07:33.240things in different parts of the country.
03:07:35.680But as as Premier King, I can still remember saying, you know, toward the end, he was one of the later speakers as per the notes and him saying to the prime minister, I know you don't take this lightly.
03:07:45.720And this was a thoughtful conversation. And because they they really were grappling with, you know, even those who were concerned about the potential for inflammation, if the Emergencies Act were invoked,
03:07:58.420even those who were concerned about it in their specific regions, understood there was a broader
03:08:04.060national, potential national need here, and that the prime minister had the authority ultimately
03:08:11.560and potentially, and the need to do this. And so even those who were showing some reluctance
03:08:17.920from their kind of premier perspective of their particular province were showing an openness or
03:08:25.060recognition, as Premier Kenney did, and sort of saying, I won't quibble with you on whatever you
03:08:30.940have to do with the Emergencies Act, ultimately. And I think that speaks to they'd had an FMM just
03:08:36.000a couple of weeks prior to this, that was solely focused on before all of this had started,
03:08:41.660as part of part for the course now during the pandemic, because we need to remember the time
03:08:46.740we were in, which was the height of Omicron. And so they'd actually had an FMM just, I think it was
03:08:51.480January 10th, where they were talking about the new mandates that the provinces were having to
03:08:56.240put into place. And we were looking to support them on that front. So this is a group that has
03:09:00.880navigated crises for a couple of years together in many, if not most of their cases. That's helpful
03:09:06.120context in understanding comments like you just brought up. I don't misprime your case. I don't
03:09:11.300quibble with the use of the act. Mr. Cloud, do you have anything to add on that on this front?
03:09:15.860I think it's been well covered. I would just emphasize I know it's been addressed here and
03:09:20.520elsewhere in the past couple weeks, but Premier Kenney's comment on this phone call that there
03:09:26.920was a potentially violent, hardcore group of individuals at the center of the Coutts blockade
03:09:33.520who were ready to die for a cause, and we had heard that through other reports and from our
03:09:37.640own officials, but it was a recognition that's just one example of the very serious potential
03:09:44.880for violence that was posed by many of these demonstrations.
03:09:47.920thank you mr clerk you can you can take that one down so we know that what happened after
03:09:55.660the first minister's meeting which lasted about an hour um there was then i believe a call with
03:10:01.460opposition leaders and uh then some point that afternoon the prime minister received a decision
03:10:07.580note from the clerk and fairly shortly thereafter took the decision to invoke the emergencies act
03:10:13.680One thing I wanted to ask from your perspective was any consideration given in any of this to holding a debate before Parliament?
03:10:22.400Not to decide, of course, but to engage in a debate over whether the Emergencies Act should be invoked.
03:10:31.200So there was an emergency debate about the convoy and the demonstrations about a week, about I think exactly a week before the invocation of the Emergencies Act.
03:10:40.460The Emergencies Act itself contains parliamentary process and provisions.
03:10:44.800That debate and the vote in the House did happen.
03:10:48.120But the decision to invoke on February 14th was made after a series of discussions and inputs,
03:10:56.580the FMM that morning being a critical one, the opposition leader call being a critical one.
03:11:00.440The view was time was up and it needed to be enacted right away.
03:11:04.700and recognizing that the parliamentary process is built into the Act and was to come in the days
03:11:09.520ahead, we thought that that was robust. So essentially that conversation didn't happen
03:11:16.260because it didn't have to. There was already a parliamentary process built in. Yes. Is that fair?
03:11:21.100Okay. And I just want to turn briefly now to the topic of revocation of the Act,
03:16:15.300So is it fair to say that that input was received
03:16:18.040but not followed by, in the end, the government?
03:16:20.380It's important to point out is that both for the invocation and the revocation, the RCMP was one of many inputs, so for sure this view would have been considered and was considered, but ultimately the Prime Minister and the IRG decided to revoke when they decided to revoke, based on what many different inputs.
03:16:42.380Okay. One thing I wanted to ask you while about the revocation decision is there have been some suggestions that the motion to confirm the declaration of emergency had been passed through the House of Commons, but was up for vote in the Senate.
03:16:56.080And that part of the timing of revocation may have been due to the some perhaps lack of confidence around whether the Senate would confirm the declaration. Can you speak to that?
03:17:09.480so quite the opposite actually and and yes i am aware of that suggestion that perhaps there's an
03:17:17.580attempt to revoke before the senate got to its vote we actually wanted the senate to move as
03:17:23.720quickly as possible and i think it did too but as it was reported to us the senate was delayed
03:17:29.460in convening partly because of the ottawa very significant continuing ottawa demonstrations that
03:17:35.300happening right on the Senate's doorstep. They did begin their debate at a certain point, but
03:17:42.980that was not considered when it came to revocation. The decisions around revocation was what's the
03:17:47.540situation? Is this act still needed? Are these powers still needed? We would have liked the
03:17:54.020Senate to have its vote, but I will also say I know of no reason to believe that the Senate would not
03:17:58.660have endorsed it and i i do believe that um i'm not sure about this but i do believe that this
03:18:05.700commission has seen evidence that the chief of staff to senator gold the government the the
03:18:11.620government leader in the senate was doing vote counting and they were quite comfortable that
03:18:17.300they were in a good place anything to add on that point mr offered mr brada no i i completely agree
03:18:24.420with what brian was just saying and i would just add that it was extraordinarily important to the
03:18:29.620prime minister that it be that he'd be true to what he said out in the beginning when he invoked
03:18:35.460the act and that it wasn't going to last one minute longer than absolutely necessary and so
03:18:40.340that was the entire motivation behind when the revocation happened and the same way you know
03:18:45.620safety and security was at the core of every meeting he was having throughout the politics
03:19:58.340And the reason I might not have time is because I've got Derek Smith on tonight as my guest.
03:20:02.960He's the author of the brand-new book, One Face, Two Face, Black Face, Blue Face.
03:20:09.480He's also the author of How the Prime Minister Stole Freedom that came out.
03:20:13.260I'm going to say six months ago, he was the number one seller in Canada across Amazon.ca.
03:20:18.780and his new book is also number one in its first week of release and Clyde do something from
03:20:25.840YouTube with 98,000 followers on YouTube independent media growing in this country gang I love to see
03:20:32.740it Clyde do something helped him out with the uh with the story so we're going to hear from Derek
03:20:38.660tonight see how he's doing and maybe get a little bit of insight about what the book is all about
03:20:45.540i think the i think the key the key characters in the book obviously would be trudeau freeland i
03:20:53.820believe is one i think pierre polyev even though derek won't be able to elaborate i think pierre
03:21:01.880polyev is one as well and possibly jagmeet singh i don't know for sure we'll find out more tonight
03:21:07.820shadow at night live stream at eight o'clock central okay so this story comes from tnc.news
03:21:15.220here guys and i want you to like and share this this particular stream this afternoon stream has
03:21:22.280not gotten half the shares the morning stream did and i think it's probably because freeland was
03:21:28.100this morning i totally understand that but katie telford understand you guys she is the one that
03:21:34.220controls the pmo the prime minister's office and there are over 500 employees political staffers
03:21:41.340involved in the PMO plus she's the one with all the left-wing corporate media connections she's
03:21:47.620the one with the high-level business connections she runs Trudeau she tells him what to say who
03:21:53.520to talk to oh yeah and when he's without her he is hopelessly lost as we saw when he met with the
03:22:01.600Chinese president premier whatever last week at the G20 in Bali so it looks like more and more
03:22:10.680concerned parents are starting to push back against this drag queen story time deal protests
03:22:17.500flare outside hamilton drag queen story time uh protesters appeared outside of terry berry is that
03:22:23.780right terry berry library in hamilton on thursday to demonstrate against drag queen story time that
03:22:29.000had been advertised to quote gender variant unquote zero to four year olds a video posted by
03:22:37.560Joe Warmington of the Toronto Sun, shows demonstrators facing down supporters of the
03:22:42.640event as police watched, apparently. Let's have a look.
03:23:07.560Obviously, the ones with masks are the supporters.
03:23:37.560yeah obviously the ones with masks are supporters and it's becoming easier to tell who's who
03:23:46.920who's aligned with who these days the ukraine supporters are definitely those who support
03:23:51.480masks and more vaccines and lockdowns as first reported by true north earlier this week the
03:23:58.640event was billed as a family-friendly drag queen story hour by the hamilton public library
03:24:04.200Hear family-friendly, culturally diverse stories and songs in celebration of families with 2SLGBTQ plus parents and gender-variant children.
03:39:26.980the commission is reconvened the commissioner okay
03:39:34.260now the the next stage first i'd like to call on the government of alberta please
03:39:43.140good evening um to this panel my name is stephanie bows i am council for the province of alberta
03:39:48.740I just want to start with the statement in the PMO Institutional Report, which indicates that PMO staff engaged with Premier Kenney's Chief of Staff, Ms. Livingstone, on February 5th and 12th.
03:40:04.500I just want to confirm that during that time, the PMO did not discuss the possible use of the Emergencies Act during those engagements. Is that correct?
03:40:14.000It was not me having those conversations, but that is my understanding, yes.
03:47:28.040given many of the demonstrators were from across the country.
03:47:33.080And I think you just said that this was about
03:47:35.400needing to refer in the communications.
03:47:37.500What communications are you talking about?
03:47:39.360So this was February 14th, 12.30 p.m. after the FMM, as preparations were underway for a potential prime ministerial announcement later that afternoon.
03:47:51.640Prime Minister took the decision to invoke the act later that afternoon and he went out and announced it.
04:09:47.120And in fact, in that chain of emails that you were taken to, there's reference, and it was on January 25th, Ms. Powers indicates that the key will be tomorrow's intersect meeting and how law enforcement will pre-mobilize.
04:10:06.940So you're obviously aware that the RCMP, whom you have a lot of confidence in, is monitoring the protest as it's approaching Ottawa, correct?
04:16:16.020IPRWASH was actually something I asked after, and we got a verbal brief on very early on.
04:16:21.660I think it was actually even before it all got, before it became even an occupation, because it was something we were very preoccupied about respecting.
04:16:31.520And that, and it's because decisions, those type of operational decisions, belong to the police based on their expertise and their discretion, correct?
04:16:44.460And there's nothing to suggest that the Ottawa Police Service did not exercise their discretion legitimately and in good faith in this case. Is that fair?
04:16:57.820The situation we've heard in Ottawa was, I'm going to use a word that we've all heard a lot in this, was a volatile one. You wouldn't disagree with that?
04:19:12.040Now, we talked about the engagement proposal that was prepared as a framework for negotiation.
04:19:19.560And I understand that Deputy Minister Stewart on February 11th advised that that engagement
04:19:26.760proposal had been prepared and validated with the OPP expert, Marcel Beaudin. Do you recall that?
04:19:34.220I know he worked with somebody in the OPP. And in fact, Chief Slowly had earlier on
04:19:40.620also requested an interlocutor be used as a method of achieving a breakthrough. You're aware of that?
04:19:49.900I'm not sure. And one of the rationales, and I'll just finish off this
04:19:56.500point, if I may, Commissioner, one of the rationales that you mentioned in your witness statement
04:20:02.880for why the engagement proposal went nowhere was what happened in Windsor. And when I looked at
04:20:13.520the record, there's an indication in a document that we'd seen previously. It's pbnsc.can402963.
04:20:26.500Three, Deputy Minister Stewart said that the reason the letter from Ontario Minister Jones didn't have much effect was owing to the late hour of the day in which it was given out and the enforcement starting the next morning.
04:20:42.920You wouldn't have any reason to disagree with that, would you?
04:20:46.820I do believe that's what the Deputy Minister said.
04:20:50.360Right. And after the engagement proposal was discarded as an idea, nobody went back to the police or Marcel Beaudin and said, hey, what else should we do? Is that fair?
04:21:05.980It wasn't discarded as an idea. There was nothing to act on. I do think those are different things.
04:21:13.220Okay. Thank you very much. Those are my questions.
04:21:16.120thank you if I could now ask for the CCLA please I think the commissioner is0.95
04:21:29.940either woefully inept or corrupt sadly I'm gonna hang in for another 20 minutes
04:21:40.280guys for the next two good afternoon my name is Kara Zwiebel I'm counsel for the0.96
04:21:43.900Canadian Civil Liberties Association. Mr. Commissioner, my friend Mr. Honner from
04:21:48.640the Democracy Fund has given me five of his minutes and he's going to limit his
04:21:52.180questioning to five minutes so I have 15 now by my count.
04:21:56.680Okay. So I want to ask you about a theme that my friend Mr.
04:22:03.560Mitjikovsky was just asking you about around sort of this question about the
04:22:11.140proper relationship between police and government um and i would imagine that as um both you know
04:22:17.460employees in the prime minister's office and obviously residents of ottawa um it might be
04:22:22.260difficult to sort of separate the fact that you're looking at at what's going on both from a policy
04:22:28.500perspective but also living through it um on right you live here i don't oh you don't live
04:22:34.900i live in toronto oh okay um so so some of you live here um um
04:22:42.420now i i know you have access to uh to briefings from the rcmp um i'm not sure if you get if you
04:22:49.380get uh briefings or sit in on briefings from any of the intelligence uh bodies um but i i think
04:22:57.860we've seen some documents that also sort of show you doing a bit a bit of your own you know getting
04:23:04.100information, as we all do, from media sources, from social media. So for example, can we pull
04:23:11.800up SSM NSC CAN 402940? And I think, Ms. Telford, this is a text message between you and the
04:23:23.620prime minister um i think it's a tweet from a reporter uh an admission police can this is
04:23:36.780february 2nd at admission police cannot control the situation this is a complete mess and textbook
04:23:42.400mismanagement they allowed the truckers to set up shop next to the pmo and west block and where
04:23:47.480tens of thousands of people live and now realize the problem they help create unbelievable and i
04:23:52.680I think this is the prime minister writing to you, the PPS, I think that's Parliamentary
04:23:58.140Protective Service, RCMP guy, and caucus said as much. He said he didn't want to let them onto
04:24:02.940Wellington, but it wasn't his call. So are you sharing this with the prime minister as just sort
04:24:10.320of, here's what's happening on the ground, here's what people are talking about, here's what's in
04:24:15.120the zeitgeist? In a manner of speaking, you'll find throughout a lot of the texts that I submitted
04:24:22.480a lot of different tweets, as well as information from the prime minister's executive assistant
04:24:32.020who lived right in center town and was keeping him posted on what it was like on the ground.
04:24:37.240Okay. And then can we also pull up SSM CAN 407729?
04:24:52.480i forget that they're also here but i can't really see them so um so over here uh again i think can
04:25:08.360we just scroll down just a little bit so this is evan solomon just walked through the protest on
04:25:12.980parliament hill tonight and i spoke to two guys carrying fuel containers past police the police
04:25:17.980chiefs said protesters would not be allowed to bring fuel to i think that's trucks but these two
04:25:23.100said police aren't bothering them at all no enforcement um and i i think this is you uh sorry
04:25:29.340can we scroll up was this one of your texts no it's not actually so what you can't see there is
04:25:33.980that also in this chat is um is the prime minister's uh executive assistant or was executive
04:25:40.380assistant at that time okay and so that's an example of what i was just describing okay um
04:26:15.260i've heard a number of things to do with the jerry cans over the course of the commission okay um
04:26:22.940is it fair to say that what you were seeing both on social media and in the media and on the ground
04:26:28.140here in ottawa as as residents um or part-time residents maybe um weren't sort of matching
04:26:35.740what you were hearing from from the police from uh briefings from the rcmp
04:26:40.700I think especially in the early days, there were a lot of different numbers coming from what we were seeing on social media, what we were seeing reported from Main Street.
04:26:53.920Okay, guys, you know what? I honestly, I don't see anything further happening today.
04:27:00.620I might be wrong, but Thelma from Scooby-Doo here doesn't seem to be moving in any sort of direction that's going to catch Telford in anything.
04:27:10.700What bothers me the most, and I'm just going to take this out now.
04:27:13.720What bothers me the most from today, I suppose, is now having having said this just now, I mean, there was some explosive confrontations this morning.
04:27:27.880Well, one anyway, between Brendan Miller and and Christy Freeland.
04:27:34.260It was fantastic. I will highlight that on the show tonight, which starts in just over two hours.
04:27:40.140but this whole thing with the redactions i mean you can see look look look here it is again like
04:27:45.640this is this is outrageous look at that look what are you supposed to do with this
04:27:51.360the problem is that the judge has ruled that these documents need to be unredacted
04:27:59.760and nobody has moved to do that yet so when the time comes for miller's cross-examination or
04:28:07.980anybody else's for that matter and they want to use these documents that they are legally entitled
04:28:12.260to use they can't because they haven't got the material in front of them so miller is left with
04:28:17.840saying what is the same as telford well i don't know well neither do i but it must have been
04:28:23.940relevant in some way why else would it have been submitted into uh into proof into evidence so
04:28:32.400somebody is not playing fair here i'm not sure if it's the commissioner or somebody in the
04:28:42.700department of justice or somebody in trudeau's office but somebody is doing something here