Gordon Chang ｜ 05-13-25
Episode Stats
Summary
An old China hand, Gordon Chang has lived and worked in Shanghai and Hong Kong for almost two decades. He is a columnist who has written regularly for The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, National Review, Barron s, and many other publications. He s the author of several books, including A Must Read: China's Project to Destroy America, which is now available on Amazon.
Transcript
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This is the Stone Zone. Now, get in the zone. It's the Stone Zone. Here's Roger Stone.
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Welcome back in the Stone Zone. Joining me now is an old China hand. Gordon Chang has lived and
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worked in Shanghai and Hong Kong for almost two decades. He is a columnist who has written
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regularly for The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, National Review, Barron's,
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and many other publications. He's the author of several books. His most recent book, A
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Must Read, Plan Red, America's Project to Destroy America, which is now available on Amazon.
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Always glad to have him. Gordon Chang, welcome into the Stone Zone.
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I saw a great interview that you gave with my friend Grant Stritchfield last night at
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Real America's Voice, which is why I reached out to you. You have been an articulate critic of the
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trade deal that President Trump and Secretary Besson announced the framework for yesterday,
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writing, let's see, you say, the Chinese let the president have a temporary win in order to pave
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the way for a more comprehensive deal. You point out that this is Trump the optimist at work,
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but you think ultimately cooperation with an arrogant Xi Jinping is not possible. Tell us what
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Well, first of all, when you look at the trade deal, the effect, it certainly helps China's exporters
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far more than America's exporters. So it is a win for the Chinese, but it's a small one.
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And of course, it's a temporary one because the trade arrangement only lasts for 90 days.
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What Trump has said yesterday when he was speaking from the White House was that he did not intend to
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hurt China's factories, but they indeed are ailing and that he would like a comprehensive agreement
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with China, which China promised. So I think what's happening is that President Trump, yes,
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he gave China kind of let them off the hook, but he did that intentionally. And I also think that he
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is doing it for the long term benefit in the way he looks at the Chinese and the American economies.
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So he didn't cave in, as a lot of people are saying. He's not afraid of inflation. He's not
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afraid of bare shelves. He did it because he thinks it's in everybody's long term best interest.
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Now, I don't necessarily think he's going to get the deal that he wants after 90 days,
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but he's the president and that's his view that he will be able to succeed.
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How stable is the situation in the ground, on the ground in China? We Americans, I think,
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have a imagery of a brutal regime keeping everyone in line. But are there political factions? Is
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there instability in China today? Yes. I don't think that Xi Jinping is as strong politically as
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everybody thinks. We know that there is turbulence in the Chinese military. For instance, Xi Jinping's
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number one loyalist in the People's Liberation Army, a guy named General He Weidong, has not been seen
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in public since March 11. Now, most people say that Xi Jinping sacked his own guy, but it's more likely,
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from what we know, that Xi Jinping's adversaries sacked General He. And really, what we're talking
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about is the most important political faction in the Chinese military. We've also seen a lot of
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signs of instability among China's civilians. And of course, Chinese people are protesting in the
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streets because they've lost jobs, because they're not getting their back pay, and because they're not
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being able to get money out of banks. So this is not a good situation for the Communist Party.
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And although it's able to maintain control through most periods, if the situation gets worse in the
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Chinese economy, the Communist Party is going to have a real problem hanging on.
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That is very interesting. Folks, once again, I recommend to you Gordon Chang's new book,
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Plan Red, China's Project to Destroy America. It's available today on Amazon. I read your previous
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books, China's Going to War, The Great U.S.-China Tech War, Losing South Carolina, Nuclear Showdown,
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North Korea, all great works by Gordon Chang. Gordon, what should the president's ultimate aim be in
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I'd like to see a decoupling of the U.S. and China. We heard the Treasury Secretary Scott dissent
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yesterday, talk about this on CNBC, where he said, we need a strategic decoupling. In other words,
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for strategic goods, I'd like to see a broader decoupling, because we shouldn't be putting money
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into the hands of the Chinese regime, which just uses that money to assault and attack us.
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But clearly, the Trump administration does not want to be reliant on China for important things
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like medicines, computer chips, and all the rest of it. And that's one of the reasons why President
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Trump has gotten a lot of foreign investment for plants in the United States. So for instance,
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TSMC, the Taiwan chip maker, is building something like six fabs in Arizona near Phoenix. That's a
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great story for the U.S. And we need to continue to do that, because we can't rely on China for
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anything that we absolutely need. I was watching your X feed and saw you hailing the developments
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in the Middle East, specifically dropping the outdated sanctions on Syria. Indeed,
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as I said earlier on this show, this is the beginning of the Trump doctrine, a complete reset
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in the Middle East. Given China's relationship with Iran, Iran is essentially a client state of the
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Communist Chinese. How do the Chinese react to these developments in the Middle East?
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Yeah, President Trump just announced the lifting of sanctions on Syria a few hours ago. So we haven't
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seen any official Chinese reaction. But I'm sure they're not happy at all, because what China has
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been trying to do is to take over the new Syrian government by flooding it with money. But the new
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president of Syria, Ahmed al-Shara, who, by the way, is a former militant, wants the United States to become
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the most influential country in Syria. He wants American money. He wants American investment, wants trade. He
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doesn't want the American military, by the way. He doesn't want aid. What he really wants is for the United
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States. He wants to replicate the American system in Syria. If he's as good as his word, and there are
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indications that he is, then this means the United States can stabilize a very critical part of the
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world. And it means that American business will follow. We had Colonel Douglas McGregor on the show the
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other day, and he expressed a view that that Chairman Xi is uneasy about the capabilities of the Chinese
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military, that he is not anxious to test them. Do you share that view?
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Yes. There's been a lot of reporting that the Chinese weapons don't work as well as they're advertised.
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And just as I mentioned, we know that Xi Jinping's control over the military is not as tight as people
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portray it to be. So I'm not sure that Xi Jinping is confident that if he gives an order to the
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generals and admirals that they'll follow it. There's a lot of, you know, the capabilities of the Chinese
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military. Big topic. But you've got to remember, it's a communist military, which means it has two lines of
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reporting, one military, one political. That's no way to run a war, Roger. And I'm sure Xi Jinping
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understands that. So I believe that McGregor is absolutely right about that.
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As you know, one of President Richard Nixon's great accomplishments was getting a strategic arms
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limitation agreement with the Russians. He succeeded in doing that really by driving a wedge between the
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Russians and the Chinese. Although both were communist nations, they had a long history of
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hostility, a long common border. They were not natural allies. In fact, they were deeply suspicious
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of each other. The one thing Joe Biden seems to have accomplished was driving the Russians and the
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Chinese together. Do you think President Trump can be successful in driving them apart?
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I don't think so. I think that Xi Jinping and Vladimir Putin have been too close for too long.
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And the reason is they see the world in the same terms. They identify the same interests and they
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think they've got the same enemy, which is the United States. Vladimir Putin is very important to Xi
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and vice versa. So I don't think that it is very likely to be able to split the two apart. It would
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be nice to think that we can do that, but it would be extraordinarily difficult. And there are other
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ways to accomplish what we set out to do. You know, Richard Nixon's accomplishments were historic
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in getting Moscow and Beijing apart, but they were already squabbling with each other when Nixon did that.
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Nixon was smart enough to understand what was going on between the two and to exploit it.
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But right now we don't have that same situation. Moscow and Beijing are on the same page.
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Very interesting. So one of the major issues that I see in this country, of course, is the
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Chinese buying up hundreds of thousands of acres of prime ranch land, farmland, but also
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public utilities like toll roads, bridges, tunnels, airports, harbors. And this goes unimpeded. In
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Florida, for example, Governor Ron DeSantis announced that he would pass state law that would prohibit the
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Chinese or anybody fronting for them from buying land in the sunshine state. But when you read the
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small print, what the law actually did was prohibit the Chinese from buying any land that was
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contiguous to a quote unquote national security site, whatever that means. You have written quite a
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bit about the infiltration into all strata of U.S. society, including owning huge swaths of valuable
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real estate. How deep is the Chinese infiltration in the United States?
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It is pervasive. It is every institution. And I'll just give you an example. You know,
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the first time that the Ministry of State Security contacted Eric Swalwell was not when he was on the
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House Intelligence Committee, where, of course, he'd be of great benefit for China. But it was when he
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was on the city council of Dublin City, California. And I'm not saying Swalwell did anything wrong. But
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what I'm saying is that the Chinese, if they identified somebody so young in his career,
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there must be dozens, hundreds, maybe even thousands of Swalwells. In other words,
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people have been contacted by the Ministry of State Security. This is just top to bottom, Roger.
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And that's why it's so important for you to talk about these things, because we've got to get the
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Chinese out of our society, because they're here to do us no good. This is a mortal threat to the
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security and even the existence of the United States.
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You cover this extremely well in your most recent book, Plan Red, China's Project to Destroy America,
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which I note again is available right now on Amazon. That's by Gordon Chang, our guest here today.
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Gordon, the Chinese have these police stations across the country in which they are monitoring,
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theoretically at least, their own Chinese citizens who are in the United States. I'm not certain why
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we continue to allow this. The singer, Jimmy Levy, the gospel singer, who's a friend, because of some
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contacts he said, told me that he learned he was under extensive surveillance, that he was literally being
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followed. He believed that his phone was also tapped. Why do we put up with this, and what should we do about it?
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Well, I don't know the why, but we certainly should not put up with it. You know, the FBI a couple of years ago
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closed the Chinese police station in Chinatown, New York. But according to the Daily Caller and New York Post
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reporting, there are seven to nine remaining Chinese police stations on our soil, and there very well could be more.
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What we're seeing are Ministry of State Security agents and Chinese diplomats engaging in acts which are
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inimicable to our security. We can turf these people out, or we can imprison them. And we absolutely have
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to do that, because they're not only monitored, but they coerce not only Chinese nationals, but American
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citizens of Chinese descent. So we know that, for instance, in the state of New York, especially the city of
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New York, a lot of Chinese American organizations have very close contact with the Chinese consulate,
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but also with the Communist Party's United Front Work Department, which is the part of the party that's
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versus foreign governments. So yes, we got to get them out of our country, because if we don't,
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we will have a very large fifth column here, and we have got to get them out.
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If you're just tuning in, we're talking to Gordon Chang. He's an old China hand, author of the new
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book, Plan Red, China's Project to Destroy America. When we come back, I'm going to ask Gordon Chang about
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the prospects for a Chinese invasion of Taiwan, something the Chinese have been rattling the
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saber about for some time, something I thought was highly likely under Joe Biden. I want to see if he
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agrees with me that it is now far less likely under President Donald Trump. You're tuned into the
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Stone Zone. We're talking to Gordon Chang. Whatever you do, don't touch that dial, because you'll be
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back in the Stone Zone in just a few minutes. This is the Stone Zone with Roger Stone.
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it has to be good. This is the Stone Zone with Roger Stone.
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Back into the Stone Zone. We're talking to Gordon Chang. He has lived and worked in Shanghai and Hong
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Kong for almost two decades. A columnist for Newsweek, The Hill, The Wall Street Journal,
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Barron's and many others to are writing about China. You can find him on X, formerly known as Twitter,
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at Gordon G. Chang. Gordon G. Chang on X. He has a very lively and informative
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Twitter feed, X feed. Urge you to follow him and to check it out. The question I asked before we
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went to break, I thought it was highly likely, given the defensive policies of the Biden administration,
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that the Chinese would invade Taiwan, would take Taiwan, because I think they probably knew all they
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would have gotten from the Biden administration was probably a strong letter of protest. Now, under
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Donald Trump, Gordon, what are the chances, in your opinion, that the Chinese will make a move
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to invade and take Taiwan, which, of course, they continue to insist is rightfully theirs?
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Yeah, I don't think that the Chinese will start hostilities with an invasion of the main island of
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Taiwan. And the reason is for what we talked about before, and that is the Chinese military is not
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ready. I don't think Xi Jinping trusts it. And also, the military doesn't really want to fight.
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But that doesn't mean Taiwan is safe. And the reason is, we know that in the last month, China has
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been engaged in some very provocative activities against South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, the Philippines,
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and Australia. If one of these incidents goes wrong, I think there will be a general war in East Asia.
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And if there's a general war in East Asia, China will move on Taiwan. So the point is,
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we've got to prevent an incident from flaring up. And the way to do that is to be strong,
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as President Trump is, to say that we will protect our friends and allies, and to scare the Chinese off.
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If we do that, we have a chance of peace. And by the way, I think that essentially,
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you know, the Chinese did not invade Taiwan during the previous administration. And I think you're
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right, they, they weren't afraid of Biden, but they were afraid of internal reasons. And that's
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what kept them from invading. If you're just tuning in, we're talking to Gordon Chang, you can follow
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Gordon Chang on X, formerly known as Twitter. He's at Gordon G. Chang there, Gordon G. Chang.
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He has a very lively X feed. You had something which I really liked. You said, you can help defund China's
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regime by telling your broker to sell all mutual funds with Chinese or Hong Kong shares. Illuminate us
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on that, if you would, Gordon. Yeah, a lot of people say, well, what can I do to stop China? Well,
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there's things that we all can do. One of them is that when we have the choice not to buy Chinese
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goods, buy American made or buy someplace else, but not China. And the other thing is, of course,
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to talk to our brokers and say, look, we don't want to hold any Chinese stocks. Most people will say,
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I don't hold any Chinese stocks. But they do hold mutual funds in many cases. And many mutual funds
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funds are international in scope. And the international mutual funds almost always have
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Chinese and Hong Kong stocks. There are funds which are ex-China, ex-Hong Kong. And those are
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the ones that tell your broker, those are the ones you want. Matter of fact, the Chinese equities don't
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perform very well anyway. So you're doing yourself a favor from a point of view of making money. But
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the point is, making money or not, it's not good to fund the Chinese regime.
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All right. I want to thank our guest, Gordon G. Chang. Again, he is the author of Plan Red,
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China's Project to Destroy America, which is available now at Amazon. You can also follow
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Gordon Chang at Gordon G. Chang on X, formerly known as Twitter, where he has a very, very lively and
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informative feed. Gordon, thank you so much for making the time for us today and for entering
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Well, thank you so much, Roger. I really appreciate it.
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And for our Stone Zone listeners out there, until tomorrow, God bless you and Godspeed. We'll be back
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tomorrow with more of the Stone Cold Truth. Whether it is politics, news, history, style, culture,
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or food, you can always find it right here in the Stone Zone. Au revoir.