The StoneZONE with Roger Stone - Gordon Chang ｜ 05-13-25

00:00:00.000 This is the Stone Zone. Now, get in the zone. It's the Stone Zone. Here's Roger Stone.

00:00:18.660 Welcome back in the Stone Zone. Joining me now is an old China hand. Gordon Chang has lived and 1.00

00:00:25.600 worked in Shanghai and Hong Kong for almost two decades. He is a columnist who has written

00:00:30.700 regularly for The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, National Review, Barron's,

00:00:36.880 and many other publications. He's the author of several books. His most recent book, A

00:00:42.400 Must Read, Plan Red, America's Project to Destroy America, which is now available on Amazon.

00:00:49.140 Always glad to have him. Gordon Chang, welcome into the Stone Zone.

00:00:53.200 Well, thank you so much, Roger.

00:00:54.660 I saw a great interview that you gave with my friend Grant Stritchfield last night at

00:00:59.760 Real America's Voice, which is why I reached out to you. You have been an articulate critic of the

00:01:06.780 trade deal that President Trump and Secretary Besson announced the framework for yesterday,

00:01:14.720 writing, let's see, you say, the Chinese let the president have a temporary win in order to pave

00:01:22.600 the way for a more comprehensive deal. You point out that this is Trump the optimist at work,

00:01:28.140 but you think ultimately cooperation with an arrogant Xi Jinping is not possible. Tell us what

00:01:34.820 you mean, Gordon.

00:01:36.320 Well, first of all, when you look at the trade deal, the effect, it certainly helps China's exporters

00:01:42.120 far more than America's exporters. So it is a win for the Chinese, but it's a small one.

00:01:48.220 And of course, it's a temporary one because the trade arrangement only lasts for 90 days.

00:01:54.660 What Trump has said yesterday when he was speaking from the White House was that he did not intend to

00:02:00.620 hurt China's factories, but they indeed are ailing and that he would like a comprehensive agreement

00:02:06.600 with China, which China promised. So I think what's happening is that President Trump, yes,

00:02:12.440 he gave China kind of let them off the hook, but he did that intentionally. And I also think that he 0.92

00:02:19.580 is doing it for the long term benefit in the way he looks at the Chinese and the American economies.

00:02:26.420 So he didn't cave in, as a lot of people are saying. He's not afraid of inflation. He's not

00:02:32.720 afraid of bare shelves. He did it because he thinks it's in everybody's long term best interest.

00:02:38.380 Now, I don't necessarily think he's going to get the deal that he wants after 90 days,

00:02:43.440 but he's the president and that's his view that he will be able to succeed.

00:02:48.760 How stable is the situation in the ground, on the ground in China? We Americans, I think,

00:02:55.100 have a imagery of a brutal regime keeping everyone in line. But are there political factions? Is

00:03:04.000 there instability in China today? Yes. I don't think that Xi Jinping is as strong politically as

00:03:12.240 everybody thinks. We know that there is turbulence in the Chinese military. For instance, Xi Jinping's

00:03:19.980 number one loyalist in the People's Liberation Army, a guy named General He Weidong, has not been seen

00:03:26.680 in public since March 11. Now, most people say that Xi Jinping sacked his own guy, but it's more likely,

00:03:33.140 from what we know, that Xi Jinping's adversaries sacked General He. And really, what we're talking

00:03:40.000 about is the most important political faction in the Chinese military. We've also seen a lot of

00:03:46.800 signs of instability among China's civilians. And of course, Chinese people are protesting in the

00:03:53.000 streets because they've lost jobs, because they're not getting their back pay, and because they're not

00:03:58.080 being able to get money out of banks. So this is not a good situation for the Communist Party.

00:04:03.140 And although it's able to maintain control through most periods, if the situation gets worse in the

00:04:09.420 Chinese economy, the Communist Party is going to have a real problem hanging on.

00:04:13.380 That is very interesting. Folks, once again, I recommend to you Gordon Chang's new book,

00:04:20.520 Plan Red, China's Project to Destroy America. It's available today on Amazon. I read your previous 1.00

00:04:28.040 books, China's Going to War, The Great U.S.-China Tech War, Losing South Carolina, Nuclear Showdown,

00:04:35.040 North Korea, all great works by Gordon Chang. Gordon, what should the president's ultimate aim be in

00:04:44.200 regard to tariffs on China?

00:04:47.140 I'd like to see a decoupling of the U.S. and China. We heard the Treasury Secretary Scott dissent

00:04:53.820 yesterday, talk about this on CNBC, where he said, we need a strategic decoupling. In other words,

00:05:02.520 for strategic goods, I'd like to see a broader decoupling, because we shouldn't be putting money

00:05:08.440 into the hands of the Chinese regime, which just uses that money to assault and attack us. 0.97

00:05:15.080 But clearly, the Trump administration does not want to be reliant on China for important things

00:05:21.820 like medicines, computer chips, and all the rest of it. And that's one of the reasons why President

00:05:26.680 Trump has gotten a lot of foreign investment for plants in the United States. So for instance,

00:05:33.780 TSMC, the Taiwan chip maker, is building something like six fabs in Arizona near Phoenix. That's a

00:05:42.040 great story for the U.S. And we need to continue to do that, because we can't rely on China for 0.95

00:05:48.220 anything that we absolutely need. I was watching your X feed and saw you hailing the developments

00:05:57.020 in the Middle East, specifically dropping the outdated sanctions on Syria. Indeed,

00:06:02.860 as I said earlier on this show, this is the beginning of the Trump doctrine, a complete reset

00:06:08.100 in the Middle East. Given China's relationship with Iran, Iran is essentially a client state of the

00:06:15.400 Communist Chinese. How do the Chinese react to these developments in the Middle East?

00:06:21.760 Yeah, President Trump just announced the lifting of sanctions on Syria a few hours ago. So we haven't

00:06:27.460 seen any official Chinese reaction. But I'm sure they're not happy at all, because what China has

00:06:33.160 been trying to do is to take over the new Syrian government by flooding it with money. But the new

00:06:40.120 president of Syria, Ahmed al-Shara, who, by the way, is a former militant, wants the United States to become

00:06:49.300 the most influential country in Syria. He wants American money. He wants American investment, wants trade. He

00:06:58.280 doesn't want the American military, by the way. He doesn't want aid. What he really wants is for the United

00:07:04.900 States. He wants to replicate the American system in Syria. If he's as good as his word, and there are 0.88

00:07:12.240 indications that he is, then this means the United States can stabilize a very critical part of the

00:07:19.880 world. And it means that American business will follow. We had Colonel Douglas McGregor on the show the

00:07:27.620 other day, and he expressed a view that that Chairman Xi is uneasy about the capabilities of the Chinese

00:07:36.660 military, that he is not anxious to test them. Do you share that view?

00:07:43.520 Yes. There's been a lot of reporting that the Chinese weapons don't work as well as they're advertised.

00:07:51.520 And just as I mentioned, we know that Xi Jinping's control over the military is not as tight as people

00:07:59.420 portray it to be. So I'm not sure that Xi Jinping is confident that if he gives an order to the

00:08:06.200 generals and admirals that they'll follow it. There's a lot of, you know, the capabilities of the Chinese

00:08:12.880 military. Big topic. But you've got to remember, it's a communist military, which means it has two lines of

00:08:19.180 reporting, one military, one political. That's no way to run a war, Roger. And I'm sure Xi Jinping

00:08:26.280 understands that. So I believe that McGregor is absolutely right about that.

00:08:33.320 As you know, one of President Richard Nixon's great accomplishments was getting a strategic arms

00:08:38.200 limitation agreement with the Russians. He succeeded in doing that really by driving a wedge between the 0.71

00:08:45.480 Russians and the Chinese. Although both were communist nations, they had a long history of

00:08:51.700 hostility, a long common border. They were not natural allies. In fact, they were deeply suspicious

00:08:57.980 of each other. The one thing Joe Biden seems to have accomplished was driving the Russians and the 0.90

00:09:03.580 Chinese together. Do you think President Trump can be successful in driving them apart? 0.97

00:09:09.780 I don't think so. I think that Xi Jinping and Vladimir Putin have been too close for too long.

00:09:17.360 And the reason is they see the world in the same terms. They identify the same interests and they

00:09:22.620 think they've got the same enemy, which is the United States. Vladimir Putin is very important to Xi

00:09:28.960 and vice versa. So I don't think that it is very likely to be able to split the two apart. It would

00:09:36.980 be nice to think that we can do that, but it would be extraordinarily difficult. And there are other

00:09:42.300 ways to accomplish what we set out to do. You know, Richard Nixon's accomplishments were historic

00:09:47.740 in getting Moscow and Beijing apart, but they were already squabbling with each other when Nixon did that.

00:09:53.920 Nixon was smart enough to understand what was going on between the two and to exploit it.

00:09:59.680 But right now we don't have that same situation. Moscow and Beijing are on the same page.

00:10:06.060 Very interesting. So one of the major issues that I see in this country, of course, is the

00:10:12.000 Chinese buying up hundreds of thousands of acres of prime ranch land, farmland, but also

00:10:20.520 public utilities like toll roads, bridges, tunnels, airports, harbors. And this goes unimpeded. In

00:10:29.800 Florida, for example, Governor Ron DeSantis announced that he would pass state law that would prohibit the

00:10:35.960 Chinese or anybody fronting for them from buying land in the sunshine state. But when you read the

00:10:43.700 small print, what the law actually did was prohibit the Chinese from buying any land that was

00:10:49.300 contiguous to a quote unquote national security site, whatever that means. You have written quite a

00:10:57.160 bit about the infiltration into all strata of U.S. society, including owning huge swaths of valuable

00:11:06.960 real estate. How deep is the Chinese infiltration in the United States?

00:11:12.140 It is pervasive. It is every institution. And I'll just give you an example. You know,

00:11:18.860 the first time that the Ministry of State Security contacted Eric Swalwell was not when he was on the

00:11:24.920 House Intelligence Committee, where, of course, he'd be of great benefit for China. But it was when he

00:11:29.680 was on the city council of Dublin City, California. And I'm not saying Swalwell did anything wrong. But

00:11:35.900 what I'm saying is that the Chinese, if they identified somebody so young in his career, 0.61

00:11:41.140 there must be dozens, hundreds, maybe even thousands of Swalwells. In other words,

00:11:46.640 people have been contacted by the Ministry of State Security. This is just top to bottom, Roger.

00:11:53.780 And that's why it's so important for you to talk about these things, because we've got to get the

00:11:57.960 Chinese out of our society, because they're here to do us no good. This is a mortal threat to the 1.00

00:12:05.680 security and even the existence of the United States.

00:12:10.140 You cover this extremely well in your most recent book, Plan Red, China's Project to Destroy America, 0.88

00:12:16.200 which I note again is available right now on Amazon. That's by Gordon Chang, our guest here today.

00:12:22.620 Gordon, the Chinese have these police stations across the country in which they are monitoring,

00:12:31.100 theoretically at least, their own Chinese citizens who are in the United States. I'm not certain why

00:12:38.020 we continue to allow this. The singer, Jimmy Levy, the gospel singer, who's a friend, because of some

00:12:45.680 contacts he said, told me that he learned he was under extensive surveillance, that he was literally being

00:12:51.640 followed. He believed that his phone was also tapped. Why do we put up with this, and what should we do about it?

00:12:59.140 Well, I don't know the why, but we certainly should not put up with it. You know, the FBI a couple of years ago

00:13:05.720 closed the Chinese police station in Chinatown, New York. But according to the Daily Caller and New York Post

00:13:12.280 reporting, there are seven to nine remaining Chinese police stations on our soil, and there very well could be more.

00:13:18.760 What we're seeing are Ministry of State Security agents and Chinese diplomats engaging in acts which are

00:13:27.100 inimicable to our security. We can turf these people out, or we can imprison them. And we absolutely have

00:13:33.620 to do that, because they're not only monitored, but they coerce not only Chinese nationals, but American

00:13:39.700 citizens of Chinese descent. So we know that, for instance, in the state of New York, especially the city of

00:13:46.300 New York, a lot of Chinese American organizations have very close contact with the Chinese consulate,

00:13:52.360 but also with the Communist Party's United Front Work Department, which is the part of the party that's

00:13:58.220 versus foreign governments. So yes, we got to get them out of our country, because if we don't, 1.00

00:14:04.000 we will have a very large fifth column here, and we have got to get them out.

00:14:09.060 If you're just tuning in, we're talking to Gordon Chang. He's an old China hand, author of the new 0.82

00:14:16.820 book, Plan Red, China's Project to Destroy America. When we come back, I'm going to ask Gordon Chang about

00:14:22.740 the prospects for a Chinese invasion of Taiwan, something the Chinese have been rattling the 0.88

00:14:29.400 saber about for some time, something I thought was highly likely under Joe Biden. I want to see if he

00:14:35.320 agrees with me that it is now far less likely under President Donald Trump. You're tuned into the

00:14:41.300 Stone Zone. We're talking to Gordon Chang. Whatever you do, don't touch that dial, because you'll be

00:14:45.540 back in the Stone Zone in just a few minutes. This is the Stone Zone with Roger Stone.

00:14:51.820 This shrimp and coconut sauce is divine. What's your secret? Goya coconut milk. How does it taste so

00:15:10.380 good? It's all in that real coconut flavor and that rich, creamy texture. What about thickeners and

00:15:16.020 added sugars? None. Just smooth, coconutty goodness. What can I make with it? From curries to sweet treats

00:15:22.740 like coconut flan, the possibilities are endless. Goya coconut milk. Take your cooking to the next

00:15:28.980 level. No question about it. Find it in the Goya section of your local grocery store. If it's Goya,

00:15:33.420 it has to be good. This is the Stone Zone with Roger Stone.

00:15:46.020 Back into the Stone Zone. We're talking to Gordon Chang. He has lived and worked in Shanghai and Hong

00:15:52.560 Kong for almost two decades. A columnist for Newsweek, The Hill, The Wall Street Journal,

00:15:58.940 Barron's and many others to are writing about China. You can find him on X, formerly known as Twitter,

00:16:05.740 at Gordon G. Chang. Gordon G. Chang on X. He has a very lively and informative

00:16:13.260 Twitter feed, X feed. Urge you to follow him and to check it out. The question I asked before we

00:16:20.880 went to break, I thought it was highly likely, given the defensive policies of the Biden administration,

00:16:29.400 that the Chinese would invade Taiwan, would take Taiwan, because I think they probably knew all they 1.00

00:16:36.700 would have gotten from the Biden administration was probably a strong letter of protest. Now, under

00:16:41.720 Donald Trump, Gordon, what are the chances, in your opinion, that the Chinese will make a move

00:16:48.040 to invade and take Taiwan, which, of course, they continue to insist is rightfully theirs?

00:16:54.780 Yeah, I don't think that the Chinese will start hostilities with an invasion of the main island of

00:17:00.540 Taiwan. And the reason is for what we talked about before, and that is the Chinese military is not

00:17:07.600 ready. I don't think Xi Jinping trusts it. And also, the military doesn't really want to fight.

00:17:14.840 But that doesn't mean Taiwan is safe. And the reason is, we know that in the last month, China has

00:17:20.880 been engaged in some very provocative activities against South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, the Philippines,

00:17:27.920 and Australia. If one of these incidents goes wrong, I think there will be a general war in East Asia. 0.91

00:17:34.600 And if there's a general war in East Asia, China will move on Taiwan. So the point is,

00:17:41.280 we've got to prevent an incident from flaring up. And the way to do that is to be strong,

00:17:46.940 as President Trump is, to say that we will protect our friends and allies, and to scare the Chinese off. 0.62

00:17:55.420 If we do that, we have a chance of peace. And by the way, I think that essentially,

00:18:01.600 you know, the Chinese did not invade Taiwan during the previous administration. And I think you're

00:18:07.360 right, they, they weren't afraid of Biden, but they were afraid of internal reasons. And that's

00:18:12.700 what kept them from invading. If you're just tuning in, we're talking to Gordon Chang, you can follow

00:18:20.080 Gordon Chang on X, formerly known as Twitter. He's at Gordon G. Chang there, Gordon G. Chang.

00:18:26.280 He has a very lively X feed. You had something which I really liked. You said, you can help defund China's 1.00

00:18:35.280 regime by telling your broker to sell all mutual funds with Chinese or Hong Kong shares. Illuminate us 0.73

00:18:43.120 on that, if you would, Gordon. Yeah, a lot of people say, well, what can I do to stop China? Well, 0.98

00:18:50.080 there's things that we all can do. One of them is that when we have the choice not to buy Chinese

00:18:55.560 goods, buy American made or buy someplace else, but not China. And the other thing is, of course, 0.85

00:19:02.580 to talk to our brokers and say, look, we don't want to hold any Chinese stocks. Most people will say,

00:19:08.420 I don't hold any Chinese stocks. But they do hold mutual funds in many cases. And many mutual funds

00:19:14.080 funds are international in scope. And the international mutual funds almost always have

00:19:20.260 Chinese and Hong Kong stocks. There are funds which are ex-China, ex-Hong Kong. And those are

00:19:27.020 the ones that tell your broker, those are the ones you want. Matter of fact, the Chinese equities don't

00:19:33.220 perform very well anyway. So you're doing yourself a favor from a point of view of making money. But

00:19:40.040 the point is, making money or not, it's not good to fund the Chinese regime.

00:19:47.040 All right. I want to thank our guest, Gordon G. Chang. Again, he is the author of Plan Red,

00:19:53.560 China's Project to Destroy America, which is available now at Amazon. You can also follow 0.86

00:19:59.740 Gordon Chang at Gordon G. Chang on X, formerly known as Twitter, where he has a very, very lively and

00:20:07.220 informative feed. Gordon, thank you so much for making the time for us today and for entering

00:20:12.600 the Stone Zone.

00:20:14.240 Well, thank you so much, Roger. I really appreciate it.

00:20:17.360 And for our Stone Zone listeners out there, until tomorrow, God bless you and Godspeed. We'll be back

00:20:24.660 tomorrow with more of the Stone Cold Truth. Whether it is politics, news, history, style, culture,

00:20:32.560 or food, you can always find it right here in the Stone Zone. Au revoir.

00:20:48.300 The Stone Zone with Roger Stone.

00:21:02.560 The Stone Zone.

The StoneZONE with Roger Stone - May 14, 2025

Gordon Chang ｜ 05-13-25

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