The StoneZONE with Roger Stone - May 31, 2025


Gordon Chang ｜ 05-30-25

Topics
tariff violations and predictions China unrest and protests
Hosted by
Roger Stone Troy Smith Jake Novak
Mentioned
X. Gordon G. Chang Donald Trump Xi Jinping Vladimir Putin Roger Chris Pine Tom Barrack Dan Bongino Joe Biden Nice Guy Ryan
The Stone Zone ｜ 05-29-25 General Michael Flynn ｜ 06-02-25

Episode Stats


Length

15 minutes

Words per minute

150.38

Word count

2,367

Sentence count

155

Harmful content

Hate speech

8

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

It was only days ago that Gordon G. Chang predicted that China would reach a trade agreement with the United States. And now, just as he predicted, China is in violation of that agreement. What does that mean for the world's second-largest economy?

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.000 The Stone Zone on the Red Apple Podcast Network.
00:00:05.760 And we're back in the Stone Zone.
00:00:09.060 Joining me now is old China hand, Gordon G. Chang.
00:00:13.940 Gordon Chang has lived and worked in Shanghai and Hong Kong for almost two decades.
00:00:18.940 He is a columnist, has written for Newsweek, The Hill, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, National Review, Barron's, and elsewhere.
00:00:28.880 His most recent book, Plan Red, China's Project to Destroy America, now available on Amazon.
00:00:36.160 It's must reading. I highly recommend you.
00:00:39.200 Gordon, welcome back into the Stone Zone.
00:00:41.660 It was right here on this show only days ago that you predicted that China would reach a tariff agreement with the United States.
00:00:51.000 But you also predicted that they would violate that agreement.
00:00:54.540 And now, just as you predicted, that is exactly what has happened.
00:00:59.480 President Donald Trump on True Social said two weeks ago, China was in grave economic danger.
00:01:06.100 The very high tariffs I set made it virtually impossible for China to trade into the United States marketplace, which is by far number one in the world.
00:01:15.740 We went, in effect, cold turkey with China, and it was devastating for them. 0.99
00:01:20.780 Many factories closed, and there was, to put it mildly, civil unrest.
00:01:25.380 I saw what was happening. I didn't like it for them, nor for us.
00:01:29.400 I made a fast deal with China in order to save them from what I thought was going to be a very bad situation, and I did not want to see that happen.
00:01:38.460 Because of this deal, everything quickly stabilized, and China got back to business as usual.
00:01:44.440 Everybody was happy. That was the good news.
00:01:47.320 The bad news, however, is that China, perhaps surprising, not surprising to some, that would include Gordon Chang, has totally violated its agreement with us, so much for being Mr. Nice Guy.
00:02:00.420 Well, Gordon Chang, I have to hand it to you. You called all this just days ago.
00:02:05.620 Well, that was really easy, Roger.
00:02:07.500 So it didn't take very much in the way of powers of prediction.
00:02:10.400 What we saw, especially after the May 12th agreement was announced, was that China did not adhere to its main promise, which was to remove non-tariff barriers that it had put in place after April 2nd, Liberation Day.
00:02:27.680 This was a very easy thing for Beijing to do.
00:02:31.160 Specifically, this was the export ban on rare earths to the United States.
00:02:36.240 It's important to us. I don't know why China didn't do it, but clearly we're now at a point which was easy to see, and that is Beijing is in violation of the agreement, and the United States needs to do something about it.
00:02:50.160 Yeah, I think you're right. You would think that the Chinese would actually have some sense of relief that we are not launching a nuclear attack on Iran, since they depend on their Iranian puppet states for so much of their oil. 0.85
00:03:05.160 What are the ways that China is violating the current agreement?
00:03:09.700 Yeah, the most important one is the failure to remove the export ban on rare earths.
00:03:16.900 This was specifically referred to when the May 12th agreement said all of the measures that China had put in place after April 2nd, and that certainly included the rare earth ban, which was actually discussed in Geneva between the American and the Chinese negotiators.
00:03:35.840 So it was something that China knew that we expected them to do right away.
00:03:40.620 You know, the thing about this May 12th agreement was, as President Trump intimated in that posting, this was a very favorable agreement for China.
00:03:49.600 So it's in China's interest to make sure that it goes forward and that we adhere to it. 0.96
00:03:54.700 And so it really is, you know, a very short-sighted decision on the part of the Chinese to try to test President Trump by not adhering and complying with the agreement. 0.57
00:04:07.820 Yeah, and those who have tested Donald Trump in the past have found out that he has ice water in his veins when it comes to negotiating, particularly when he's negotiating on behalf of the American public.
00:04:18.740 What do you think happens next in this Chinese-American tariff minuet?
00:04:26.800 President Trump is going to impose some cost, and I think he's going to do it pretty soon.
00:04:31.800 He's made a marker for himself with the posting a few hours ago, which means that it will happen.
00:04:38.040 I don't know what form it'll take.
00:04:39.740 Probably an increase in tariffs could be something else.
00:04:43.220 We'll find out.
00:04:44.180 Yeah, I guess he could also use sanctions if he wanted to.
00:04:48.600 He does.
00:04:49.380 Of course, some federal court has already attempted to tell him that he doesn't have the authority to do any of this.
00:04:55.340 This was one of the most incredible things I've seen in a 50-year career in American politics,
00:05:00.620 where a federal judge in Florida says that Donald Trump has the authority set by Congress to negotiate tariffs for reasons beyond just revenue,
00:05:12.060 the drugs pouring into our country, the trade imbalance.
00:05:17.260 Those are legitimate reasons.
00:05:18.920 Trump declared an economic emergency in order to give himself this executive power as required by the Constitution.
00:05:26.100 And then suddenly, out of nowhere, this incredibly obscure international court of trade,
00:05:31.560 which is located in Manhattan, of all places, rules the president doesn't have this authority.
00:05:37.620 Trump's lawyers appealed within hours, and a federal appeals court stayed the international trade court's decision
00:05:48.380 so the president could get back to negotiating better trade deals for the American people.
00:05:53.020 We haven't seen a final ruling on that, but we presume, much like the earlier federal court rulings that said that he didn't have the authority
00:06:02.660 to deport violent, illegal immigrant criminals from the United States, 0.85
00:06:09.100 it will end up before the U.S. Supreme Court, I imagine.
00:06:12.400 And my guess is that the International Trade Court, which threw out a hundred years of precedent,
00:06:19.500 allowed every other president to set tariffs unencumbered, will be overturned.
00:06:25.520 In the meantime, I think I want to focus on the part of the president's statement, Gordon,
00:06:31.580 when he spoke of civil unrest unfolding in China.
00:06:35.180 The Chinese have an extraordinarily brutal regime.
00:06:39.500 They rule with an iron fist.
00:06:41.380 What is the situation on the ground in China today?
00:06:46.100 Well, there have been protests of workers, and indeed, workers have been burning down their factories.
00:06:52.420 A recent example was a worker who was not paid 800 renminbi,
00:06:59.520 basically a little bit more than 100 U.S. dollars.
00:07:02.820 He burned down his factory.
00:07:05.540 And that could happen in any country, Roger, but 800 Brother, as he is now known, has become a folk hero throughout China.
00:07:15.100 And that doesn't happen in countries.
00:07:17.940 What it says is that China's people are extremely unhappy, and whenever they get the opportunity, they will take to the streets as they have been. 1.00
00:07:29.560 Also, we have had hints that there are depositor protests in the eastern part of the country, big cities like Shanghai and Beijing.
00:07:39.880 And that really is an indication that the banks are being squeezed.
00:07:44.100 Now, I'm sure that these are the smaller financial institutions, because the big ones are flush with cash.
00:07:50.800 But it shows that the problems in the economy are now radiating into the banking system.
00:07:56.720 And that's a really bad sign for Beijing.
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00:08:16.800 The president, by his deft moods in the Middle East, is very clearly trying to isolate China. 0.59
00:08:25.600 He would like to get a solution to the Russian-Ukraine war.
00:08:28.800 That's proving more difficult than perhaps the president had thought.
00:08:33.080 Whenever he gets one side lined up, the other side falls apart on him.
00:08:37.540 I was kind of surprised that he was unaware of the attempted assassination of Vladimir Putin,
00:08:44.020 where his helicopter was attacked by Ukrainian drones.
00:08:48.520 I bet those drones, by the way, came from the United States.
00:08:52.420 It would explain Vladimir Putin's reticence to come to the table.
00:08:57.660 I was hopeful that Putin would show up in Turkey, where our ambassador, Tom Barrack, extraordinarily able individual,
00:09:09.120 who the president not only appointed as ambassador to Turkey, but also special envoy to Syria,
00:09:15.980 where we are beginning the peacemaking process with the new Syrian leadership.
00:09:20.700 I was hoping that Putin would show up, and that since the president was already in the Middle East,
00:09:26.440 that he might drop in and broker the deal himself.
00:09:30.260 See, I've read the art of the deal.
00:09:34.060 Gordon, how stable is the government of Chairman Xi?
00:09:39.160 We Americans think that they don't have their own internal politics, but indeed they do.
00:09:46.540 They certainly do.
00:09:48.820 So, for instance, there is credible information to suggest that Xi Jinping has lost substantial influence,
00:09:55.280 or maybe even total control over the Chinese military.
00:09:59.740 Recently, his loyalists have disappeared from public view.
00:10:03.580 There are rumors that they were suicided.
00:10:06.220 I don't know if that's true or not, but we do know we haven't seen them.
00:10:09.620 And when we also can see other developments in the Chinese military that suggest that Xi Jinping did not, as many people believe,
00:10:18.980 he did not actually get rid of his own people.
00:10:23.020 It's Xi Jinping's adversaries in the middle, in the military, got rid of them.
00:10:27.860 And that says that Xi Jinping's control and influence throughout the Chinese political system,
00:10:35.160 military and civilian, has now been weakened.
00:10:38.240 There are all sorts of rumors that are flying around about the Chinese civilian leaders undermining Xi Jinping.
00:10:47.080 I don't know if those are true.
00:10:48.900 We have no way of confirming them, and very little in the way of information that would lead us to one conclusion or another.
00:10:57.460 But these rumors are there, Roger.
00:10:59.240 And usually, when you hear a lot of rumors of this type, it means that people are trying to undermine whoever is the target of the rumors,
00:11:08.360 in this case, Xi Jinping.
00:11:09.880 So, yeah, I think the Chinese political system is really unstable right now.
00:11:13.540 If you're just tuning in, we're talking to Gordon Chang.
00:11:17.000 You find him at Gordon G. Chang on X.
00:11:20.020 Gordon G. Chang on X.
00:11:22.060 He has a very lively commentary there.
00:11:25.280 He's also the author of a terrific book, Plan Red, China's Project to Destroy America. 0.65
00:11:31.400 That's available on Amazon.
00:11:33.520 I've read his previous books, China's Going to War, The Great U.S.-China Tech War, Losing South Korea, Nuclear Showdown,
00:11:42.880 and his analysis of the events in North Korea as well as China are always incisive and on the money.
00:11:52.260 I don't believe that Chairman Xi trusts his military.
00:11:56.680 I also don't believe that he's confident about the capabilities of his military.
00:12:01.220 The last time you joined us, I asked you about the probability of a move on Taiwan,
00:12:08.880 something I thought was highly probable under the weak foreign policy of President Joe Biden.
00:12:16.040 I think Chairman Xi knew that if they grabbed nationalist China, Taiwan,
00:12:20.960 the result would be a strong letter of protest from Antony Blinken, the Secretary of State,
00:12:27.440 because Joe was probably sleeping.
00:12:30.000 Do you still think it is unlikely that the Chinese attest President Donald Trump vis-a-vis Taiwan?
00:12:39.360 Yeah.
00:12:39.620 What I think is unlikely is that Xi Jinping would initiate hostilities with an attempt to take the main island of Taiwan,
00:12:48.940 because, as you point out, I don't think Xi Jinping trusts his military.
00:12:52.840 You know, it's entirely possible.
00:12:56.260 Two other things, though, are entirely possible and maybe even probable.
00:13:00.600 Taiwan has a lot of little islands that are just off the Chinese mainland, some of them as close as three miles.
00:13:08.400 Xi Jinping needing a quick victory could take one of those little ones,
00:13:12.140 because that would be a fairly simple military exercise.
00:13:14.660 The other thing that could happen is Xi has been engaged in very provocative activity on his periphery against South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Philippines, Australia.
00:13:28.240 One of those confrontations could go wrong.
00:13:30.540 That could spiral down into a major conflict, and Taiwan could get involved that way.
00:13:36.340 This is, of course, fascinating.
00:13:39.580 Donald Trump prefers commerce over chaos, but you can see him moving aggressively to try to isolate the Chinese.
00:13:48.840 How successful do you think he can be at that?
00:13:51.900 He can be extremely successful because, as Trump mentioned in his posting, everybody needs the U.S. market.
00:13:58.740 U.S. consumers account for something like 38, 39 percent of global consumer spending.
00:14:04.240 That's an enormous percentage, and all of these countries need the United States.
00:14:10.740 So President Trump can use that leverage.
00:14:14.100 He's got to negotiate with some skill.
00:14:18.940 It's been a little bit chaotic up to now, but I'm sure that President Trump will be able to use the power of our market to accomplish what's good for Americans.
00:14:28.420 I, again, if you're just tuning in, we're talking to Gordon Chang.
00:14:34.240 Gordon, I want to thank you for joining us in Stone Zone today.
00:14:37.140 You can follow Gordon at Gordon G. Chang in X.
00:14:42.200 He also is the author of a terrific new book, Plan Red, China's Project to Destroy America, which you can find in Amazon.
00:14:49.840 If you want to know what's going to happen in China and in Chinese-American relations, follow Gordon Chang on X.
00:14:57.460 His analysis is excellent, and we're always glad to have him here in the Stone Zone.
00:15:02.680 Gordon, thank you, and God bless you.
00:15:05.640 Thank you so much, Roger.
00:15:06.560 Coming up, Dan Bongino, the deputy FBI director, says he's found an entire room of documents, most of them pertaining or many of them pertaining to the so-called Russian collusion hoax, and they're going to be releasing those documents.
00:15:24.960 We'll be talking about it here in the Stone Zone when we come back.
00:15:27.820 So whatever you do, stick with us if you want to hear the latest on the Russian collusion hoax and whether those who perpetrated it on America will ever face justice.
00:15:38.120 Right here in the Stone Zone.
00:15:40.600 The Stone Zone on the Red Apple Podcast Network.