The StoneZONE with Roger Stone

00:00:00.500 The Stone Zone, entertaining and informative on the Red Apple Podcast Network.

00:00:07.920 Welcome back into the Stone Zone.

00:00:11.480 Substack, substack.com, is a place where writers and thinkers, right, left, and center, can

00:00:19.480 express their views, views that the mainstream media is disinterested in because, well, they're

00:00:26.360 not politically correct, or they may be offbeat, or they may be off the official fake news narrative.

00:00:34.560 Among the liveliest takes there is Rod Martin.

00:00:40.860 Rod D. Martin has the Rod D. Martin Report.

00:00:45.840 The Martin Report, I urge you to check it out.

00:00:47.860 And the man himself joins us now, Rod Martin.

00:00:52.580 Great to be here.

00:00:53.840 Thank you.

00:00:54.320 So, I should tell folks, you are an entrepreneur, a founder and CEO of Martin Capital, an investor,

00:01:01.260 a futurist, one of the guys that helped start PayPal.

00:01:04.520 You're a staunch anti-communist.

00:01:06.600 What I love is the fact that you're also a thinker.

00:01:09.440 And the Rod Martin Report on Substack is a fountain of ideas and free expression.

00:01:16.820 So, I want to jump right into it because these court rulings are coming so fast, you could

00:01:22.180 get whiplash if you try to pay attention.

00:01:24.320 But yesterday, we were told this incredibly obscure international trade court, which, frankly,

00:01:32.040 I've never heard of before, in Manhattan, had suddenly ruled that President Donald Trump

00:01:38.580 didn't have the authority to go out and negotiate trade deals with other countries.

00:01:42.860 Now, just hours ago, a new federal appeals court has overruled that.

00:01:50.460 You just wrote a great, hot take on this.

00:01:53.680 Rod, give us your take.

00:01:56.580 Well, it's completely absurd.

00:01:59.020 It's a true travesty.

00:02:00.580 And I give you about 1,800 words of analysis on rodmartin.org.

00:02:05.220 On exactly that came out about half an hour ago.

00:02:09.440 The appeals court stayed the ruling for now.

00:02:14.940 So, the Trump administration will have an opportunity to appeal this.

00:02:20.220 They seem to be going straight to the Supreme Court.

00:02:23.160 Maybe they go to the appeals court first.

00:02:25.440 But, in the meantime, the tariffs continue.

00:02:28.240 That's what the president has.

00:02:30.640 The problem here is the grounds on which they overruled him.

00:02:35.720 They actually apply very strictly non-delegation doctrine,

00:02:40.580 which all good conservatives would support.

00:02:43.680 We don't believe that Congress should have the right to delegate legislative authority

00:02:48.520 to administrative agencies, the executive branch, generally.

00:02:53.220 But that's not really the situation here.

00:02:55.540 This is a foreign policy issue, not a legislative issue.

00:02:59.620 Congress has clearly acted in repeated acts going back to 1930

00:03:05.500 to permit and enable the president to use tariffs as a tool

00:03:12.900 in the conduct of American foreign policy.

00:03:16.540 And this has never been meaningfully challenged.

00:03:19.860 This court, yeah, I think those people had never heard of.

00:03:23.880 It was started in 1980, but it's the successor to the old U.S. Customs Court,

00:03:29.180 which was established in 1890.

00:03:32.140 And in all of that time, none of these activist Democrats

00:03:36.340 have ever seen fit to question when Barack Obama imposed tariffs

00:03:41.660 or Joe Biden maintained presidentially imposed tariffs

00:03:46.160 or Jimmy Carter or Lyndon Johnson or R.D.R.

00:03:50.040 It's a complete political circus.

00:03:54.040 It is shameful, and it simply isn't the law.

00:03:57.000 Yeah, it's, as you say, it's madness.

00:04:00.120 But we saw the same thing surrounding the question

00:04:03.100 of whether the president had the authority

00:04:05.280 to deport illegal immigrant gang members

00:04:09.400 with criminal records in many cases

00:04:11.820 who are very clear danger to those around them

00:04:15.080 and to the country.

00:04:16.160 We actually had a court rule

00:04:18.120 that the president had no such authority,

00:04:19.900 which, of course, he does.

00:04:21.280 The Supreme Court ultimately stepped in.

00:04:23.540 And I'm hopeful that they will do so again.

00:04:26.640 Now, one of the things I like about the stuff you put up

00:04:31.180 at rodmartin.org and that you also have at Substack

00:04:34.700 is the fact that you've actually read the art of the deal.

00:04:39.140 So you actually understand our 45th and our 47th president.

00:04:44.460 That in itself, I think, is one of the reasons

00:04:49.400 why your observations are so on the money.

00:04:53.220 Give me your overall take on the president's tariff strategy

00:04:58.300 because I've said on this show and elsewhere,

00:05:00.700 I actually don't believe that Donald Trump loves tariffs.

00:05:03.480 I think he'd love to have no tariffs.

00:05:05.040 He'd like to have an even playing field

00:05:06.420 with no tariffs between any countries

00:05:08.700 where we could sell whatever we wanted in their country

00:05:10.600 and vice versa.

00:05:11.860 But that's not what we have.

00:05:13.420 People say, oh, you're against free trade.

00:05:16.480 Well, we want fair trade.

00:05:17.980 And the trade hasn't been fair.

00:05:19.840 So the president uses tariffs as a cudgel.

00:05:24.280 And frankly, based on what I've seen,

00:05:26.620 so far it appears to be working.

00:05:28.840 But I'm more interested in your take.

00:05:31.200 You're absolutely singing my song.

00:05:34.240 And I just face again and again on Fox Business

00:05:36.960 and other fora because it's just plain as day.

00:05:41.300 Donald Trump has made his position clear.

00:05:43.940 I would say possibly most clearly at the 2018 EG7 meeting

00:05:51.700 where he just stood up and he told them,

00:05:54.320 look, I'm a working guy.

00:05:56.660 Obviously, the right outcome is to have no trade barriers whatsoever.

00:06:01.000 That's going to be prosperity for everybody.

00:06:04.020 But you guys won't play ball.

00:06:06.760 And they wouldn't.

00:06:08.380 And they didn't.

00:06:09.360 And so now we get the reciprocal tariffs just to jerk their chains.

00:06:14.680 The fact that everybody misses, and I don't understand why,

00:06:19.900 is that America is the largest consumer market in the world.

00:06:23.500 Everybody he exports has to sell to us.

00:06:28.340 And by the way, a lot of these countries are heavily dependent

00:06:31.500 on the export sector of their economy.

00:06:34.500 Germany, 48% of their economy.

00:06:37.520 China, more than 20% of their economy.

00:06:40.820 And some of that gets trans-shipped through Vietnam

00:06:43.620 and different places.

00:06:44.960 Doesn't matter.

00:06:46.160 You know, the bottom line is without the U.S. market,

00:06:48.540 China goes into a depression, and so would Germany,

00:06:52.380 and so would much of the world.

00:06:54.120 They need us more than we need them.

00:06:56.520 So, of course, Donald Trump understands that.

00:06:58.700 That's sort of his new state.

00:07:00.480 And you mentioned the art of the deal.

00:07:02.260 I would also like to single out what I think is actually

00:07:05.940 the reason to know is 1997, the art of the combat,

00:07:10.420 which is just extraordinary, particularly in the last chapter,

00:07:15.800 which goes on at length about his political views,

00:07:20.740 and it reads just like a campaign statement from 2016 or 2024.

00:07:26.940 It's extraordinary how consistent this man is in overtime,

00:07:30.840 hoping at picking up a pro-life position along the way.

00:07:34.000 But otherwise, he's as consistent as the day is long.

00:07:38.540 And the people who have done the homework

00:07:40.560 and won't do the reading always get him wrong,

00:07:43.840 always misunderstanding, and they're not going to get any better.

00:07:47.780 It's easy to get stuck reaching for the same familiar fruits and vegetables,

00:07:52.000 even when you know a colorful variety is key.

00:07:55.220 Balance of Nature's fruits and veggie supplements

00:07:56.960 don't replace fruits and vegetables,

00:07:58.980 but it makes it easy to add more variety to what you already eat.

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00:08:16.120 by using discount code POD.

00:08:18.220 Yeah, I completely agree.

00:08:19.460 I would also point out his book,

00:08:21.180 The America We Deserve,

00:08:22.360 in which he actually foresees the rising threat of Islamic terrorism,

00:08:27.940 and he actually predicts the attack on America on 9-11.

00:08:32.380 An extraordinary book.

00:08:34.300 I agree with you.

00:08:35.280 The only issue, frankly, on which he's really changed is,

00:08:38.420 I think with the birth of his son, Barron,

00:08:41.920 he became pro-life.

00:08:43.380 I think that gave him a new appreciation.

00:08:46.200 But beyond that,

00:08:47.300 if you go back and look at the speech he gave in New Hampshire

00:08:49.920 in 1988,

00:08:52.880 when he spoke to the Plymouth, New Hampshire Chamber of Commerce,

00:08:56.760 and many people said,

00:08:57.600 oh, is he running for president?

00:08:59.100 Is he going to New Hampshire because he's running for president?

00:09:01.080 No, he's going to New Hampshire

00:09:02.000 to get exposure for his ideas.

00:09:03.980 He talked about the folly of the trade deals.

00:09:06.940 This was pre-GAT, pre-NAFTA.

00:09:09.580 But he said,

00:09:10.240 we're getting killed in these trade deals.

00:09:11.940 We send social workers.

00:09:13.960 They send killers.

00:09:15.320 They send their best and brightest.

00:09:17.140 We send bureaucrats.

00:09:18.460 We're getting rolled.

00:09:20.440 And why are we continuing to pay a disproportionate amount

00:09:23.860 for the protection of Europe?

00:09:26.080 Why are our NATO allies

00:09:28.440 not paying their fair share

00:09:30.980 for their own protection?

00:09:32.860 I remember this like it was yesterday.

00:09:34.900 He said, look,

00:09:35.480 I understood that after World War II,

00:09:38.120 they were devastated.

00:09:39.720 They were destroyed.

00:09:40.680 They were broke.

00:09:41.540 We were still relatively prosperous.

00:09:44.040 And the Marshall Plan was necessary and so on.

00:09:48.080 But now,

00:09:49.280 with our economy in trouble,

00:09:51.700 why are they not paying their fair share?

00:09:54.200 This was 1988.

00:09:55.480 Of course,

00:09:56.240 in 2017,

00:09:58.340 he made our NATO allies pony up.

00:10:01.640 Every one of them was behind in their payments

00:10:04.160 and every one of them was forced to cough up

00:10:06.960 millions and millions of dollars.

00:10:09.100 Rod,

00:10:09.460 you wrote this and I loved it.

00:10:11.920 Speaking of Trump's use

00:10:14.480 and maneuvering for tariffs, 0.89

00:10:16.900 you said,

00:10:17.740 this is like Reagan's zero option all over again.

00:10:21.500 Reagan deployed a large number of new nuclear weapons

00:10:24.720 to Europe

00:10:25.260 to counter the Soviets' similar deployment

00:10:28.080 while proposing that all such weapons should be banned.

00:10:31.900 Everyone laughed until 1987

00:10:33.820 when he achieved exactly that.

00:10:37.040 But speaking of Reagan,

00:10:38.680 who you and I agree is

00:10:39.960 one of the 20th century's greatest presidents,

00:10:42.700 he also used market power,

00:10:44.960 specifically a huge arms race

00:10:47.360 coupled with collapsing the price of energy

00:10:49.960 from which Russia derived the cash

00:10:52.040 it needed to continue to compete

00:10:53.500 and he bankrupted the Soviet Union.

00:10:56.660 Trump,

00:10:57.080 remember this lesson

00:10:58.120 and now you say

00:10:59.400 China is learning us. 0.94

00:11:01.460 Talk to us about China.

00:11:03.220 China,

00:11:04.060 you were talking about

00:11:06.120 how Trump is checkmating China.

00:11:08.600 Expand on that,

00:11:09.540 if you would.

00:11:11.340 Well,

00:11:11.560 you're exactly right.

00:11:12.860 This is

00:11:13.260 Reagan's

00:11:15.420 zero

00:11:16.100 option strategy

00:11:17.800 from

00:11:18.660 what became

00:11:19.960 the Intermediate Nuclear Forces Treaty

00:11:21.980 in 1987.

00:11:23.900 When Reagan

00:11:24.560 put it out there,

00:11:26.620 everybody called him crazy

00:11:28.120 on both sides of the aisle.

00:11:30.240 But he was right.

00:11:31.740 You know,

00:11:32.040 putting pressure

00:11:32.960 on the Soviets

00:11:34.020 by deploying nuclear missiles,

00:11:36.520 both the cruise missiles

00:11:37.480 and the Pershing 2,

00:11:38.980 put the Russians 1.00

00:11:39.940 in a position

00:11:40.720 where they

00:11:41.840 absolutely

00:11:42.980 had

00:11:43.660 tons of reason

00:11:45.340 to actually

00:11:46.620 abolish

00:11:47.500 an entire

00:11:48.500 class of nuclear weapons.

00:11:50.180 It's the only time

00:11:51.040 it's ever happened.

00:11:51.980 and

00:11:52.400 it was highly successful

00:11:53.700 and it was just because

00:11:54.600 Reagan was a visionary

00:11:55.640 and willing to go

00:11:57.200 for the deal

00:11:57.960 that

00:11:58.380 these days

00:11:59.360 Trump would go for.

00:12:01.020 But

00:12:01.200 most of our political class

00:12:02.840 doesn't have the creativity

00:12:04.060 to even imagine

00:12:05.160 and they're horrified

00:12:06.280 by the concept.

00:12:07.680 Same thing

00:12:08.460 with using

00:12:09.020 the Saudi alliance

00:12:10.740 to collapse

00:12:11.780 the price of the oil.

00:12:13.720 And

00:12:13.860 that's where

00:12:14.700 we just saw

00:12:16.440 the trip

00:12:16.820 to the Middle East

00:12:17.640 where

00:12:18.440 we're

00:12:18.880 buttressing

00:12:19.720 those alliances

00:12:20.720 we've got to

00:12:21.400 bring Israel 0.97

00:12:22.200 into an alliance

00:12:23.460 with Saudi Arabia

00:12:24.540 and the rest

00:12:25.620 of the Gulf states

00:12:26.380 and that's already

00:12:27.400 started the Abraham Accords 1.00

00:12:28.940 but in the process

00:12:30.680 we're isolating China 0.97

00:12:32.540 and Donald Trump

00:12:33.920 understands

00:12:34.780 perfectly

00:12:35.540 clearly

00:12:36.160 what the

00:12:36.720 Beltway class

00:12:37.720 has not

00:12:38.440 that

00:12:39.060 China

00:12:39.680 is a geopolitical

00:12:40.820 threat

00:12:41.240 it's a

00:12:42.440 it's a regime

00:12:43.440 run by a

00:12:44.280 communist party

00:12:45.200 that routine

00:12:45.960 threatens

00:12:46.640 to nuke

00:12:48.540 American cities

00:12:50.120 to invade

00:12:51.400 an American

00:12:52.280 ally

00:12:52.860 in Taiwan

00:12:53.820 this is not

00:12:55.040 Germany

00:12:55.520 this is not

00:12:56.640 Japan

00:12:57.120 this is not

00:12:58.240 a friend

00:12:59.040 this is at best

00:13:00.360 a frenemy

00:13:00.960 and

00:13:01.820 we have to

00:13:03.000 decouple

00:13:03.520 from them

00:13:04.120 sufficiently

00:13:04.720 that we're not

00:13:05.460 dependent on them

00:13:06.280 for strategic supply

00:13:07.620 and also

00:13:09.040 enough

00:13:09.860 that their

00:13:10.740 economy

00:13:11.380 is sufficiently

00:13:12.180 depressed

00:13:12.800 that they can't

00:13:13.660 afford

00:13:14.380 military

00:13:15.740 interventions

00:13:16.380 and

00:13:17.160 an invasion

00:13:18.180 of Taiwan

00:13:18.800 or potentially

00:13:19.880 Siberia

00:13:20.800 or whatever

00:13:21.540 they might

00:13:22.060 attempt

00:13:22.520 Donald Trump

00:13:23.840 gets it

00:13:24.420 everybody

00:13:25.280 before him

00:13:26.380 failed in this

00:13:27.420 regard

00:13:27.840 starting with

00:13:28.680 Bill Clinton

00:13:29.440 letting China 0.95

00:13:30.360 into the WTO

00:13:31.420 letting China 0.95

00:13:33.240 have most

00:13:34.060 favored nation

00:13:34.720 status

00:13:35.160 taking tons

00:13:37.560 of Chinese

00:13:38.160 campaign cash

00:13:39.060 in the 96

00:13:39.700 election

00:13:40.440 the genesis

00:13:42.680 of our

00:13:43.480 alliance

00:13:44.160 of these

00:13:44.920 people

00:13:45.260 no you're

00:13:47.500 absolutely

00:13:47.800 right

00:13:48.140 I often

00:13:48.820 say that

00:13:49.220 Richard Nixon

00:13:49.780 gets a

00:13:50.360 bum rap

00:13:50.900 people say

00:13:51.420 that Nixon

00:13:52.260 because he

00:13:53.000 restored economic

00:13:54.000 relations

00:13:54.620 with the

00:13:55.120 Chinese

00:13:55.520 is responsible

00:13:56.820 for the

00:13:57.680 threat that

00:13:58.540 China poses

00:13:59.560 today

00:13:59.920 but people

00:14:00.820 don't recognize

00:14:01.480 that at the

00:14:02.340 time that

00:14:02.740 Nixon went

00:14:03.180 to China

00:14:03.560 China

00:14:03.880 was a

00:14:04.420 dirt poor

00:14:05.100 agrarian

00:14:06.400 society

00:14:07.140 most homes

00:14:09.100 did not have

00:14:09.640 indoor plumbing

00:14:10.280 the rural

00:14:12.040 areas

00:14:12.400 didn't even

00:14:12.800 have

00:14:13.000 electricity

00:14:13.520 the country

00:14:14.860 had no

00:14:15.520 technological

00:14:16.260 capabilities

00:14:17.220 they had

00:14:18.400 a military

00:14:19.240 capability

00:14:20.000 but it was

00:14:20.620 antiquated

00:14:21.680 it wasn't

00:14:22.540 until the

00:14:23.100 Clintons

00:14:23.480 gave them

00:14:23.940 most

00:14:24.520 favored

00:14:25.220 nation

00:14:25.900 trading

00:14:26.360 status

00:14:26.940 and frankly

00:14:28.120 Bill Clinton

00:14:29.200 sold them

00:14:30.480 in the

00:14:31.800 the Laurel

00:14:32.920 scandal

00:14:33.360 sold them

00:14:33.980 our

00:14:34.200 missile

00:14:35.060 targeting

00:14:35.700 technology

00:14:36.580 in return

00:14:37.460 for millions

00:14:38.060 of dollars

00:14:38.580 in illegal

00:14:39.140 campaign

00:14:39.640 contributions

00:14:40.240 these are

00:14:41.160 the things

00:14:41.580 that made

00:14:42.080 China

00:14:42.560 the danger

00:14:43.640 that it

00:14:44.160 is today

00:14:44.660 there was

00:14:45.020 no way

00:14:45.520 for Richard

00:14:46.480 Milhouse

00:14:47.060 Nixon

00:14:47.460 to see

00:14:48.400 that 30

00:14:49.080 years later

00:14:49.920 after he

00:14:50.980 played the

00:14:51.420 Russians

00:14:51.740 off against

00:14:52.320 the Chinese

00:14:52.920 and vice

00:14:53.420 versa

00:14:53.780 to secure

00:14:54.780 a strategic

00:14:55.340 arms

00:14:55.780 limitation

00:14:56.280 agreement

00:14:56.860 on which

00:14:58.060 the Russians

00:14:58.500 were going

00:14:59.020 cold

00:14:59.620 until Nixon

00:15:00.780 announced

00:15:01.160 he was going

00:15:01.620 to visit

00:15:02.120 Beijing

00:15:02.840 and then

00:15:03.940 suddenly they

00:15:04.480 wanted to

00:15:04.840 make a deal

00:15:05.460 there's no

00:15:06.420 way Nixon

00:15:06.880 could see

00:15:07.480 that China 0.93

00:15:08.240 would emerge

00:15:08.960 as the

00:15:09.420 threat

00:15:09.720 that they

00:15:10.340 have become

00:15:11.360 folks

00:15:12.200 if you're

00:15:12.640 just tuning

00:15:13.040 in

00:15:13.420 if you're

00:15:14.100 just tuning

00:15:14.460 in

00:15:14.740 this is

00:15:15.320 the Stone

00:15:15.720 Zone

00:15:15.960 we're talking

00:15:16.720 to Rod

00:15:17.560 Martin

00:15:17.940 you can

00:15:18.960 find his

00:15:19.660 great stuff

00:15:20.280 at rodmartin.org

00:15:21.780 don't go away

00:15:23.280 because we'll be

00:15:24.020 right back

00:15:24.580 with a bit

00:15:25.480 more with

00:15:26.560 Rod Martin

00:15:27.300 talking about

00:15:28.060 the politics

00:15:29.180 of the day

00:15:30.100 right now

00:15:30.640 we're focused

00:15:31.220 on China

00:15:32.580 but I want

00:15:33.100 to ask him

00:15:33.540 when we come

00:15:33.960 back about

00:15:34.540 Russia

00:15:34.960 and about

00:15:36.260 Vladimir

00:15:37.320 Putin

00:15:37.780 and the

00:15:38.660 quest

00:15:39.080 for peace

00:15:39.800 in the

00:15:40.820 Ukraine

00:15:41.440 Russian

00:15:42.020 war

00:15:42.480 again

00:15:43.480 you're in

00:15:43.920 the Stone

00:15:44.300 Zone

00:15:44.580 I'm Roger

00:15:45.160 Stone

00:15:45.520 he's Rod

00:15:46.600 Martin

00:15:47.000 of the

00:15:47.580 Rod

00:15:47.820 Martin

00:15:48.120 Report

00:15:48.420 and we'll

00:15:49.060 be

00:15:49.340 right back

00:15:50.460 come up

00:15:50.900 get

00:16:04.260 off

00:16:05.000 Sorry

00:16:05.600 you

00:16:05.700 you

00:16:06.020 you

00:16:06.100 you

00:16:06.160 you

00:16:07.960 you

00:16:11.500 you

Rod Martin ｜ 05-29-25

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