The Tucker Carlson Show - Amjad Masad： The Cults of Silicon Valley, Woke AI, and Tech Billionaires Turning to Trump

00:00:00.000 welcome to tucker carlson show it's become pretty clear that the mainstream media are dying

00:00:11.600 they can't die quickly enough and there's a reason they're dying because they lie they lied so much

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00:00:21.480 honest content the most honest interviews we can without fear or favor here's the latest

00:00:27.560 it does sound like you're like directly connected to ai development yes you're part of the ecosystem

00:00:33.260 yes and we benefited a lot from when it started happening like it was almost a surprise to a lot

00:00:39.620 of people but we saw it coming and you saw ai coming saw it coming yeah so you know this recent ai wave

00:00:47.840 you know it surprised a lot of people when chat gpt came out november 22 yeah a lot of people just lost

00:00:54.260 their mind like suddenly a computer can talk to me and that was like the holy grail i wasn't into

00:00:59.160 it at all really you know what paul graham one of my uh closest friends and sort of allies and mentors

00:01:06.480 he's a big silicon valley figure uh he's a writer kind of like you uh as uh you know he writes a lot

00:01:13.020 of essays and uh and he hates it he thinks it's like a midwit right and it's just like making people

00:01:19.700 write worse making people think worse worse or not think at all right not think as the iphone has

00:01:25.100 done as wikipedia and google have done yes we were just talking about that the um you know the

00:01:30.260 iphones ipads whatever they made it so that anyone can use a computer but they also made it so that

00:01:36.980 no one has to learn to program the original vision of computing was that this is uh this this is

00:01:45.000 something that's going to give us superpowers right jc lickleider the head of darpa while the

00:01:49.220 internet was developing wrote this uh uh essay called the man machine symbiosis and he talks about

00:01:55.740 how computers can be an extension of of of ourselves it can can help us grow we could become

00:02:02.660 you know there's this marriage between the type of intellect that the computers can do which is

00:02:09.960 high speed arithmetic whatever and the type of intellect that humans can do is more intuition

00:02:14.760 yes um but you know since then i think the the uh sort of consensus has sort of changed around

00:02:22.640 computing which is and i'm sure we'll get into that which is why people are afraid of ai is kind

00:02:27.400 of replacing us this idea of like computers and computing are threat because uh they're directly

00:02:35.100 competitive with with humans which is not really the the belief i hold they're extensions of us and i

00:02:40.180 think people learning the program and this is really embedded at the heart of our mission at

00:02:44.400 replet is what gives you superpowers whereas when you're just tapping you're kind of a consumer

00:02:51.540 you're not a producer of software and i want more people to be producers of software uh there's a book

00:02:58.400 by dog uh half not half setter roshkoff douglas roshkoff it's called program or be programmed

00:03:04.220 and the idea if you're not the one coding someone is coding you someone is programming you these

00:03:10.400 algorithms and you know social media they're programming us right so too late for me to learn

00:03:17.640 to code though i don't think so i don't think so i can't balance my checkbook assuming there are still

00:03:23.700 checkbooks i don't think there are but let me just go back to something you said a minute ago um

00:03:27.680 that the idea was originally as conceived by the darpa guys who made this all possible

00:03:32.840 that machines would do the math humans would do the intuition i wonder as machines become more

00:03:40.240 embedded in every moment of our lives if intuition isn't dying or people are less willing to trust

00:03:47.760 theirs i've seen that a lot in the last few years where something very obvious will happen

00:03:51.520 and people are like well i could sort of acknowledge and obey what my eyes tell me and my instincts are

00:03:58.920 screaming at me but you know the data tell me something different right like my advantage is i'm

00:04:05.440 like very close to the animal kingdom that's right and i just believe in smell yeah and so but i i wonder

00:04:10.960 if that's not a result of the advance of technology well i don't think it's inherent to the advance of

00:04:17.820 technology i think it's an it's it's a cultural thing right it's how to again this vision

00:04:22.440 of computing as a replacement for humans versus an extension machine for for humans and so you know

00:04:31.140 you go back you know bertrand russell uh wrote a book about history of philosophy and history of

00:04:37.140 mathematics and like you know going back to the ancients and uh pythagoras and and all these things

00:04:42.300 and you could tell in the writing he he was almost surprised by how much intuition played into

00:04:48.360 science and math and you know uh in the sort of ancient era of uh advancements and logic and

00:04:55.960 philosophy and and all of that whereas i think the culture today is like well you got to check your

00:05:02.860 intuition at the door yes yeah you're biased your intuition is racist or something and you have to

00:05:09.340 this is bad um and you have to be this like you know blank slate and like you trust the data but by the

00:05:16.260 way data is you can make the data say a lot of different things i've noticed wait can i just

00:05:20.460 ask a totally off-topic question that just occurred to me how are you this well i mean so you grew up

00:05:26.300 in jordan speaking arabic in a displaced palestinian family you didn't come to the u.s until pretty

00:05:32.320 recently you're not a native english speaker how are you reading bertrand russell yeah and how like

00:05:37.240 what was your education is everyone in is every palestinian family in jordan this well educated like

00:05:43.820 what kind of like yeah palestinian uh diaspora is like pretty well educated and you're starting to

00:05:50.440 see this generation our generation of kind of who grew up are starting to um sort of become more

00:05:57.120 prominent i mean in silicon valley you know a lot of c-suite and vp level executives a lot of them

00:06:03.560 are palestinian originally a lot of them wouldn't say so because there's still you know bias and

00:06:07.700 discrimination and all that but i wouldn't say they're palestinian they wouldn't say and you know

00:06:11.680 they're called adam and some of them some of the christian palestinians especially kind of blend

00:06:15.460 in right but there's a lot of them over there but how did you so how do you wind up reading i assume

00:06:22.040 you read bertrand russell in english yes how did you learn that you didn't grow up in an english-speaking

00:06:27.400 country yeah well jordan is kind of an english-speaking well it kind of is that's true right so so you know

00:06:33.340 it was it was a british colony i think one of the you know i you know the the independence they

00:06:38.280 like happened like 50s or something like that or maybe 60s so it was like pretty late in the you

00:06:44.200 know british uh sort of empire's history that jordan stopped being a colony so there was like a lot of

00:06:50.620 british influence i went to so my father my father is a government engineer he didn't he didn't have a

00:06:57.360 lot of money so we lived a very modest life kind of like middle lower middle class uh but he really

00:07:03.880 cared about education he sent us to private schools and in those private schools we uh uh we learned

00:07:10.040 kind of using british diploma right so igcse levels you know that's are you familiar with not at all

00:07:16.800 yeah so so uh you're part of the sort of british uh you know colonialism or whatever is like you know

00:07:23.480 education system became international uh i think it's a good thing uh yeah there are british schools

00:07:28.960 everywhere yeah yeah british schools everywhere and there's a good education system it gives students a

00:07:33.300 good level of freedom and autonomy to kind of pick the kind of things they're interested in

00:07:36.600 so i you know went to a lot of math and physics but also did did like random things i did child

00:07:42.080 development which i still remember and now that i have kids i actually use and in high school you do

00:07:48.360 that in high school and i uh what does that have to the civil rights movement what do you mean well

00:07:55.360 that's the only topic in american schools really yeah oh yeah you spend 16 years learning about the

00:08:00.860 civil rights movement so everyone can identify the edmund pettus bridge but no one knows anything

00:08:04.100 else oh god i'm so nervous about that with my kids no opt out trust me um that's so interesting so

00:08:12.100 when you when did you come to the u.s 2012 damn and now you've got a billion dollar company that's

00:08:18.600 pretty good yeah i mean america is amazing like i i just love this country uh it's given us a lot

00:08:24.020 of opportunities i just love the people like everyday people i like just talk to people i was just

00:08:28.540 talking to to my driver which she was like um you know i'm so embarrassed i didn't i didn't know who

00:08:33.840 dr carlson was good that's why i live here yeah i was like well good for you i think that means you're

00:08:40.700 just like you know you're just living your life and she's like yeah i'm you know i have my kids and

00:08:44.520 my chickens and my whatever i was like that's great that's it means you're happy you're happy yes

00:08:49.140 but so i'm sorry to digress i'm sorry to grass i'm sitting here you're referring to

00:08:54.000 all these books i'm like you're not even from here it's incredible uh so but back to ai um

00:09:00.040 and and to this question of intuition you don't think that it's in it's inherent so in other words

00:09:06.660 if my life is to some extent governed by technology by my phone by my computer by you know all the

00:09:12.860 technology embedded in like every electronic object you don't think that makes me trust machines more

00:09:18.540 than my own gut um you can choose to and i think a lot of people are being guided to to do that um

00:09:27.600 but ultimately you're giving away a lot of uh freedom uh and and you know there's a there's a

00:09:36.220 it's not just me saying that there's like a huge tradition of hackers and computer scientists that

00:09:43.440 kind of started uh ringing the alarm bell like really long time ago about like the way things

00:09:50.180 were trending which is you know more centralization less you know diversity of competition in the market

00:09:56.680 yes uh and you have like one global social network as opposed to many now it's actually getting a little

00:10:02.840 better but um and you had a lot of these people you know start you know the crypto movement i know you

00:10:09.980 you were at the bitcoin conference recently and you told them uh cia started bitcoin they got really

00:10:14.640 angry and on twitter i i don't know that but until you can tell me who satoshi was i i have some

00:10:20.340 questions what i actually have a have a feeling about who satoshi was but that's a separate conference

00:10:26.660 no it's not let's just stop right now because i can't i'll never forget to ask you again who is

00:10:30.140 satoshi there's a guy his name is paul larue by the way for those watching you don't know who satoshi

00:10:35.920 satoshi is the the the pseudonym that we use for the person who created bitcoin but we don't know

00:10:42.800 it's amazing you know it's this is this thing that was created we don't know who created it he didn't

00:10:47.440 he never moved the money i don't think maybe there was some activity here and there but like there's

00:10:51.920 like billions hundreds of billions of dollars locked in so we don't know the person is they're not

00:10:56.640 cashing out and it's like pretty crazy story right amazing so paul larue yeah paul larue uh

00:11:03.480 was uh you know crypto hacker in uh rhodesia um and before zimbabwe and he created something called

00:11:16.780 encryption for the masses em4 and was one of the early by the way i think snowden used em4 as part

00:11:22.840 of his uh as part of his hack um so he was one of the people that really you know made it so that

00:11:28.940 uh cryptography is accessible to more people however he did he did become a criminal he became

00:11:33.540 a criminal mastermind in manila he was really controlling the the city almost you know he paid

00:11:39.680 off all the cops and everything he was making so much money for so from so much criminal activity

00:11:45.340 his nickname was letoshi with an l and so there's like a lot of you know circumstantial evidence there's

00:11:52.360 no like cutthroat evidence but i just have a feeling that he generated so much cash he didn't know

00:11:58.120 what to do with it where to store it and on the side he was building bitcoin to be able to store

00:12:02.860 all that all that cash and around that same time that satoshi disappeared he went to jail he got

00:12:08.680 he got booked for um for all the crime he did he recently got sentenced to 20 years 25 years of prison

00:12:16.400 i think judge asked him like what would you do if you if you would go out and he's like i would build

00:12:20.540 an asec chip to mine bitcoin um and so look you know this is a strong opinion loosely held but it's

00:12:27.620 just like there's so he is currently in prison he's currently in prison yeah in in this country or the

00:12:33.100 philippines i think this country because he was doing all the crime here he was selling drugs online

00:12:38.000 essentially huh we should go see him in jail yeah yeah to check out his story is fascinating i'm i'm sorry

00:12:44.540 i just had to get that out of you so um i keep digressing uh so you see ai and you know you're part

00:12:52.640 of the ai ecosystem of course but um you don't see it as a threat no no no i don't see it as a threat

00:12:59.700 at all and i think and i you know i i heard some of your you know podcasts with joe rogan whatever

00:13:04.740 and you're like we should nuke the data centers and and i'm excitable yeah on the basis of very

00:13:10.220 little information well actually yeah well actually tell me what is your theory about the threat of ai

00:13:14.120 you know i always i want to be the kind of man who admits up front his limitations and his ignorance

00:13:19.980 um and on this topic i'm legitimately ignorant but i have read a lot about it and i've read

00:13:24.680 most of the alarmist stuff about it and the idea is as you well know that the machines become so

00:13:32.480 powerful that they achieve a kind of autonomy and they though designed to serve you wind up ruling you

00:13:39.560 yeah and um you know i'm i'm really interested in uh ted kaczynski's writings his two books that he

00:13:49.880 wrote obviously as to say ritually i'm totally opposed to letter bombs or violence of any

00:13:54.580 kind um but ted kaczynski had a lot of provocative and thoughtful things to say about technology

00:14:01.100 it's almost like having live-in help which you know people make a lot of money they all want to

00:14:05.380 have live-in help but the truth about live-in help is you know they're there to serve you but you wind

00:14:09.700 up serving them it inverts and ai is a kind of species of that uh that's the fear and i don't want

00:14:17.340 to live i don't want to be a slave to a machine any more than i already am so it's kind of that simple

00:14:22.300 and then there's all this other stuff you know a lot more about this than i do and you're in that

00:14:25.720 world but yeah that's my concern that's actually a quite valid concern i would like decouple the

00:14:30.660 existential threat concern from the concern and we've been talking about this of like machine like

00:14:36.940 us being slaves to the machines and i i think ted kaczynski's um critique of technology is actually

00:14:45.000 one of the best yes thank you yeah i um i wish he hadn't killed people of course because i'm against

00:14:51.140 killing but i also think it had the opposite of the intended effect he did it in order to bring

00:14:56.320 attention to his uh to his thesis and ended up obscuring it uh but i i really wish that every

00:15:04.220 person in america would read but not just the his manifesto but the book that he wrote from prison

00:15:09.160 because they're just so at the least they're thought-provoking and really important yeah yeah i mean

00:15:14.460 briefly and we'll get to existential risk in a second but uh he talked about this thing called

00:15:18.660 the power process which is he thinks that it's intrinsic to human happiness to to struggle for

00:15:26.120 survival to go through life as a child as an adult build up yourself get married have kids and then

00:15:34.800 become the elder and then die right exactly and he he thinks that modern technology kind of disrupts

00:15:40.600 this process and it makes people miserable how do you know that i read it i i'm very curious i like

00:15:46.760 i read a lot of things and i just don't have mental censorship in a way like i can i'm really

00:15:55.500 curious i'll read anything do you think being from another country has helped you in that way

00:15:59.400 yeah and and i also i think just my childhood um i was like always different i i was when i had hair

00:16:07.160 it was all red it was bright red um and my my whole family is kind of uh or at least half of my family

00:16:13.920 are redheads and um and you know because of that experience i was like okay i'm different i'm comfortable

00:16:22.480 being different i'll be i'll be different and uh and you know that just commitment to not worrying

00:16:29.200 about anything you know about conforming or like it was forced on me that i'm not conforming just by

00:16:35.900 virtue of yes different and and uh and being curious and being you know um good with computers and all that

00:16:44.860 um i think that carried me through life it's just i like i get you know i get like almost a disgust

00:16:53.560 reaction to conformism and like mob mentality oh i couldn't agree i had a similar experience

00:16:59.120 childhood i totally agree with you yeah we've traveled to an awful lot of countries on this show

00:17:03.900 to some free countries the dwindling number and a lot of not very free countries places famous for

00:17:09.720 government censorship and wherever we go we use a virtual private network of vpn and we use express

00:17:16.280 vpn we do it to access the free and open internet but the interesting thing is when we come back here

00:17:23.900 to the united states we still use express vpn why big tech surveillance it's everywhere it's not just

00:17:31.160 north korea that monitors every move its citizens make no that same thing happens right here in the

00:17:37.340 united states and in canada and great britain and around the world internet providers can see

00:17:42.580 every website you visit did you know that they may even be required to keep your browsing history

00:17:48.140 on file for years and then turn over to federal authorities if asked in the united states internet

00:17:54.240 providers are legally allowed to and regularly do sell your browsing history everywhere you go online

00:18:00.200 there is no privacy did you know that well we did and that's why we use express vpn and because we

00:18:06.660 do our internet provider never knows where we're going on the internet they never hear it in the

00:18:11.420 first place that's because a hundred percent of our online activity is routed through express vpn's

00:18:16.900 secure encrypted servers they hide our ip address so data brokers cannot track us and sell our online

00:18:24.160 activity on the black market we have privacy express vpn lets you connect to servers in 105 different

00:18:31.600 countries so basically you can go online like you're anywhere in the world no one can see you

00:18:37.500 this was the promise of the internet in the first place privacy and freedom those didn't seem like

00:18:43.540 they were achievable but now they are express vpn we cannot recommend it enough it's also really easy

00:18:50.380 to use whether or not you fully understand the technology behind it you can use it on your phone

00:18:54.640 laptop tablet even your smart tvs you press one button just tap it and you're protected you have

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00:21:30.660 so kaczynski's thesis that struggle is not only inherent to the condition but an essential part

00:21:56.860 yes of your evolution as a man or as a person um and the technology disrupts that

00:22:03.080 i mean that seems right to me yeah and i actually struggle to sort of um dispute that uh despite

00:22:11.880 being a technologist right ultimately uh again like i said it's like one of the best critique i think we

00:22:17.180 can spend the whole podcast kind of really trying to tease it apart i think ultimately where i kind of

00:22:24.440 defer and again it just goes back to a lot of what we're talking about my views and technology as an

00:22:29.660 extension of us it's like we just don't want technology to be uh a thing that's just merely

00:22:35.820 replacing us we want it to be an empowering thing and what we do at replit is we empower people to learn

00:22:43.180 to code to build startups to build companies to become entrepreneurs and um and i think you can

00:22:49.840 uh in this world you have to create the power process you have to struggle and uh yes you can

00:22:58.840 you know this is why i'm also you know a lot of technologists talk about ubi and universal basic

00:23:04.760 oh i know i think it's all wrong because it just goes against human nature thank you so i think

00:23:10.880 you want to kill everybody put them on the dole yes yes so you know i don't think technology is

00:23:16.960 inherently at odds with the power process i'll leave it at that and we can go to to to existential

00:23:24.860 threat yeah of course sorry boy am i just aggressive i can't believe i interview people for a living

00:23:31.420 we had dinner last night that was awesome it was one of the best dinners yeah but we we hit about

00:23:38.320 400 different threats yes that's amazing so so that's what's what's out there i know um i'm sort

00:23:46.600 of convinced of it my or it makes sense uh to me and i'm kind of threat oriented anyway so people with

00:23:53.020 my kind of personality are like sort of always looking for you know the big bad thing that's coming

00:23:57.980 the asteroid or the nuclear war the ai slavery um but i know some pretty smart people who very smart

00:24:06.020 people who are much closer to the heart of ai development who also have these concerns um and

00:24:12.740 i think a lot of the public shares these concerns yeah and the last thing i'll say before soliciting

00:24:18.700 your view of it much better informed view of it is that there's been surprisingly and tellingly little

00:24:25.460 conversation about the upside of ai so instead it's like this is happening and if we don't do it china

00:24:32.180 will that may i think that's probably true but like why should i be psyched about it like what's

00:24:38.100 the upside for me right do you know what i mean normally when some new technology or or huge change

00:24:44.060 comes the people who are profiting from like you know what's going to be great it's going to be great

00:24:48.500 you're not going to ever have to do x again you know you just throw your clothes in a machine and

00:24:52.460 press a button and they'll be clean yes i'm not hearing any of that about it that's a very

00:24:56.900 pseudo-observation and i'll exactly tell you why um and to tell you why it's like a little bit of a

00:25:02.900 long story because i think there is a organized effort to scare people about ai organized organized

00:25:10.660 yes and so this this starts with a mailing list in the 90s is a transhumanist mailing list uh called uh

00:25:19.940 the extropians and these extropians they might got it wrong extropia or something like that but

00:25:27.140 they um they believe in the singularity so the singularity is a moment of time where uh you know

00:25:35.860 ai is progressing so fast or technology in general progressing so fast that you can't predict what

00:25:40.100 happens it's self is self-evolving and it just all bets are off you know we're entering a new world

00:25:47.540 where you just can't predict it where technology can't be controlled technology can't be controlled

00:25:51.620 it's going to remake remake everything and those people believe that's a good thing because the

00:25:57.380 world now sucks so much and we are you know we are imperfect and unethical and all sorts of

00:26:03.380 irrational whatever and so they really wanted to um for the singularity to happen and there's this

00:26:09.860 young guy on this uh list his name is eliezer itkowski and he claims he can write this ai and he would

00:26:16.820 write like really long essays about how to build this ai uh suspiciously he never really publishes

00:26:23.540 code and it's all just pros about how he's going to be able to build ai anyways he he's able to to

00:26:30.500 fundraise they started this thing called the singularity institute a lot of people were excited

00:26:35.220 about the future kind of invested in him peter thiel most famously and he spent a few years trying to

00:26:40.820 build an ai again never published code never published any like real progress uh and and then

00:26:49.060 came out of it saying that not only you can't build ai but if you build it it will kill everyone so he

00:26:54.820 kind of switched from being this optimist you know singularity is great to like actually ai will for

00:27:00.980 sure kill everyone and uh and then he was like okay the reason i made this mistake is because i was

00:27:08.100 irrational and the way to get people to understand that ai is going to kill everyone is to make them

00:27:13.700 rational so he started this blog called less wrong and less wrong is it like walks you through steps to

00:27:19.860 becoming more rational look at your biases examine yourself you know sit down meditate on the all the

00:27:25.540 irrational decisions you've made and try to correct them um and then they start this thing called

00:27:31.140 center for advanced rationality or something like that cfar and they're giving seminars about

00:27:37.220 rationality but the intention seminar about rationality what's that like uh i've never been to one but my

00:27:44.580 guess would be if they will talk about the biases whatever but they have also like weird things where

00:27:50.500 they have this almost struggle session like thing called debugging a lot of people wrote blog posts

00:27:55.380 about how that was demeaning and it caused psychosis in some people 2017 that community there was like

00:28:02.580 collective psychosis a lot of people were kind of going crazy and it's all written about it on the

00:28:07.460 internet debugging so that would be like kind of your classic cult technique yeah where you have to strip

00:28:13.060 yourself bare like auditing and scientology or yes it's very common yes yeah so yeah it's a constant

00:28:20.100 in cults yes uh is that what you're describing yeah i mean that's what i read on these accounts yeah

00:28:25.780 they will sit down and they will like audit your mind and tell you where you're wrong and and all of

00:28:30.180 that um and and it's it caused people a huge distress on young guys all the time like talk about

00:28:37.380 how going into that community has caused them huge distress and there were like offshoots of this

00:28:42.100 community where there were suicides there were murders there were a lot of really dark and deep

00:28:47.860 shit and the other thing is like they kind of teach you about rationality they recruit you to ai risk

00:28:53.220 because if you're rational you know you're a group we're all rational now we learned the art of

00:28:58.260 rationality and we agree that ai is going to kill everyone therefore everyone outside of this group is

00:29:05.220 wrong and we have to protect them ai is going to kill everyone and but but also they believe other

00:29:11.460 things like they believe that you know uh polyamory is is rational and and everyone that holly amory yeah

00:29:18.420 like like uh you can have sex with multiple partners essentially that but they think that's i mean

00:29:24.020 i think it's um it's certainly a natural desire if you're a man to sleep with more and different

00:29:30.100 women for sure but it's rational in the sense how like you've never met a happy polyamorous long term

00:29:39.140 i've done a lot of them not a single one so how it might be self-serving you think to recruit more

00:29:46.420 impressionable people into yeah and their hot girlfriends yes right um so that's rational yeah

00:29:54.980 supposedly um and so they you know they convince each other of all these you're cult-like behavior

00:30:00.260 and the crazy thing is like this group ends up being super influential uh because um you know they

00:30:09.220 recruit a lot of people that are interested in ai and the ai labs and the people who are starting these

00:30:16.020 companies were reading all this stuff so elon uh you know famously read a lot of nick bostrom as

00:30:23.540 as kind of an adjacent figure to the rationality community he was part of the original mailing list

00:30:29.060 i think he would call himself a you know rational part of the rational community but he wrote a book

00:30:33.380 about ai and how ai is going to you know kill everyone essentially i think he moderated his views more

00:30:38.340 recently but originally he was one of the people that are kind of banging the alarm um and you know the

00:30:44.980 foundation of open ai uh was based on on a lot of these fears like elon had fears of ai killing

00:30:52.740 everyone uh he was afraid that google was going to do that and so they you know group of people i don't

00:30:58.660 think everyone at open ai really believed that but you know some of the original founding story was that

00:31:04.180 and they were recruiting from that community it was so much so when um you know sam altman got fired

00:31:10.340 recently he was fired by someone from that community um someone who started with effective

00:31:18.500 altruism which is another offshoot from that community really and so the ai labs are intermarried

00:31:26.180 in a lot of ways with this with this community and so it it ends up they kind of you know borrowed a

00:31:32.660 lot of their talking points but by the way a lot of these companies are great companies now and i think

00:31:36.420 they're cleaning up house but there is i mean it's i'll just use the term it sounds like a cult

00:31:41.940 to me yeah i mean it has the hallmarks of it in your description yeah and can we just push a little

00:31:47.780 deeper on what they believe you say they are transhumanists yes what is that well i think i think

00:31:53.380 they're just unsatisfied with with human nature unsatisfied with the current ways um we're constructed

00:32:00.980 um and that you know we're irrational we're unethical uh and so they they start uh they long for

00:32:10.340 the world where we can become more rational more ethical by transforming ourselves either uh by merging

00:32:18.500 with ai via chips or or what have you changing our bodies um and like fixing fundamental issues that

00:32:27.060 they perceive with humans via modifications and merging with machines it's just so interesting

00:32:32.260 because um and so shallow and silly um like a lot of those people i have known are not that smart

00:32:39.540 actually because the best things i mean reason is important and we should in my view given us by god

00:32:45.620 and it's really important and being irrational is bad on the other hand the best things about people

00:32:52.580 their best impulses are not rational mm-hmm i believe so too there is no rational justification

00:32:59.620 for giving something you need to another person yes for spending an inordinate amount of time helping

00:33:04.580 someone for loving someone those are all irrational now banging someone's hot girlfriend i guess that's

00:33:09.540 rational but that's kind of the lowest impulse that we have actually we'll wait to hear about uh

00:33:14.740 effective altruism so they they think our natural impulses that you just talked about are indeed

00:33:20.500 irrational and there's a guy uh his name is peter singer uh philosopher from australia the infanticide

00:33:26.980 guy yes he's so ethical he's for killing children yeah i mean so their philosophy is utilitarian

00:33:32.980 utilitarianism is that you can calculate ethics yeah and you can start apply it and you get into really

00:33:38.260 real weird territory like you know if um you know there's all these problems all these thought experiments

00:33:44.260 like you know you you have you know two people at the hospital uh requiring some organs of another

00:33:51.700 third person that came in for a regular check-up you uh or they will die you're ethically um uh

00:34:00.020 you you're supposed to kill that guy get his organ and and put it into into the other two and so

00:34:06.500 it gets i don't think people believe that per se i mean but but they um but but there's so many uh

00:34:14.980 problems with that there's another belief that they have can i say that belief or that conclusion

00:34:21.380 grows out of the core belief which is that you're god it's like a normal person realizes

00:34:27.460 sure it would help more people if i killed that person and gave his organs to you know a number of

00:34:32.340 people like that's just a math question yeah true but i'm not allowed to do that because i didn't

00:34:38.020 create life i don't have the power i'm not allowed to make decisions like that yes because i'm just a

00:34:43.860 silly human being who can't see the future and is not omnipotent because i'm not god yeah i feel like

00:34:48.180 all of these conclusions stem from the misconception that people are gods yes i i does that sound right no i

00:34:55.460 agree i mean a lot of the um yeah i think it's you know they're at root they're just fundamentally

00:35:06.180 unsatisfied with humans and maybe perhaps hate hate yeah humans well they're deeply disappointed yes

00:35:13.940 i think that's such a i've never heard anyone say that um as well that they're disappointed with human

00:35:19.780 nature they're disappointed with human condition they're disappointed with people's flaws and i feel

00:35:23.940 like that's the i mean on one level of course i mean you know we should be better and but that

00:35:29.540 we used to call that judgment which we're not allowed to do by the way um that's just super

00:35:34.820 judgy actually what they're saying is you know you suck and it's just a short hop from there to you

00:35:42.100 should be killed i think i mean that's a total lack of love whereas a normal person a loving person says

00:35:48.900 you kind of suck i kind of suck too yes but i love you anyway and you love me anyway and i'm

00:35:54.660 grateful for your love right that's right that's right well they'll say you suck join our rationality

00:35:59.380 community have sex with us uh um so but can i just clarify or these these aren't just like

00:36:07.700 you know support staff at these companies like are there so you know you've heard about sbf and fdx

00:36:12.500 yeah they had what's called a polycule yeah right they were all having sex with each other uh just

00:36:18.740 given now i just want to be super catty and shallow but given some of the people they were having sex

00:36:23.220 with that was not rational no actual person would do that come on now yeah that's true yeah um well so

00:36:32.260 you know uh yeah yeah it's um what's even what's even more disturbing there's you know another ethical

00:36:40.260 component to their philosophy called long-termism and this this comes from the effective altruist

00:36:48.100 sort of branch of of rationality long-termism long-termism and so what they think is in the

00:36:55.700 future if we did the if we made the right steps there's going to be a trillion humans trillion minds

00:37:01.460 they might not be humans it might be ai but they're going to be trillion minds who can experience utility

00:37:06.020 can experience good things fun things whatever if you're utilitarian you have to put a lot of weight

00:37:11.940 on it and maybe you discount that sort of like discounted cash flows uh but you still you know

00:37:18.980 have to posit that you know you know if if there are trillions perhaps many more people in the future

00:37:26.900 you need to value that very highly even if you discounted a lot it ends up being valued very highly

00:37:32.260 so a lot of these communities end up all focusing on ai safety because they think that ai because

00:37:38.100 they're rational they arrived and we can talk about their arguments in a second they arrived at the

00:37:43.140 conclusion that ai is going to kill everyone therefore effective altruists and rational community

00:37:48.180 all these branches they're all kind of focused on ai safety because uh that's the most important

00:37:54.180 thing because we want a trillion people in the future to be great but you know when you're assigning

00:38:00.180 sort of value uh that high it's sort of a form of pascal's wager it is um sort of uh you can justify

00:38:09.940 anything including terrorism including uh doing really bad things if you're really convinced that ai is

00:38:18.980 going to kill everyone um and the future holds so much value uh more value than any living human today

00:38:29.380 has value you might justify really doing anything and so built into that it's a dangerous framework

00:38:36.980 but it's the same framework of every genocidal movement yes from you know at least the french

00:38:44.100 revolution to present yes of a glorious future justifies a bloody present yes and look i'm not

00:38:51.220 accusing them of genocidal intent by the way i don't know them but i but those ideas lead very quickly

00:38:56.740 to the camps i feel kind of weird just talking about people just generally i'd like to talk

00:39:00.260 about ideas about things but if they were just like a you know silly berkeley cult or whatever

00:39:06.180 and they didn't have any real impact in the world i wouldn't care about them but what's happening is

00:39:12.980 that they were able to convince a lot of billionaires of these ideas i think elon maybe changed his mind

00:39:19.540 but at some point he was convinced of these ideas uh i don't know if he gave them money i think

00:39:23.460 there was a story at some point that was to draw that he was thinking about it but um a lot of other

00:39:28.340 billionaires gave them money and now they're organized and they're in dc lobbying for ai like

00:39:33.300 regulation they're uh they're behind the ai regulation in california uh and actually profiting from it

00:39:41.380 uh there was a story in uh pirate wares where this you know the main sponsor uh dan hendricks behind

00:39:49.140 sb 1047 um started a company at the same time that certifies the safety of ai and as part of the

00:39:57.060 bill it says that you have to get certified by a third party so there's there's aspects of it that

00:40:02.420 are um kind of let's let's profit from it by the way this is all allegedly based on this article i i don't

00:40:08.500 know for sure uh i think senator scott uh weiner was trying to do the right thing with the bill but he

00:40:14.980 was listening to a lot of these cult members let's call them and um and and they're very well

00:40:23.940 organized and uh also a lot of them still have connections to the big ai labs and uh some of the

00:40:30.420 work there and they would want to create you know a situation where there's no competition in ai

00:40:37.220 regulatory capture per se and so i'm not saying that these are like the direct motivations all of them

00:40:42.900 are true believers but you know you might you you might kind of infiltrate this group and kind of

00:40:49.220 direct it in a way that benefits these corporations yeah well i'm from dc so i've seen a lot of

00:40:55.860 instances where you know my bank account aligns with my beliefs thank heaven yeah this kind of happens

00:41:01.780 winds up that way it's funny um climate is the perfect example there's never one climate solution

00:41:08.340 that makes the person who proposes it poorer or less power exactly ever not one we've told you

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00:43:11.620 i wonder like about the core assumption which i've had up until right now

00:43:17.220 that these machines are capable of thinking yeah is that true so let's go through their chain of

00:43:27.060 reasoning i think the fact that it's uh it's a stupid cult-like thing or perhaps actually a cult

00:43:34.740 does not automatically mean that their arguments are that's right that's exactly right uh i think it

00:43:40.340 does you you do have to kind of discount some of the arguments because it comes from crazy people but

00:43:46.500 the argument the chain of reasoning is that um humans are general intelligence we have these

00:43:53.540 things called brains brains are computers they're based on purely physical phenomena that we know they're

00:44:00.980 computing and if you agree that humans are computing and therefore we can build a general intelligence in

00:44:11.220 the machine and if you agree up till this point if you if you're able to build a general intelligence

00:44:17.700 in the machine even if only at human level then you can create a billion copies of it and then it becomes

00:44:25.300 a lot more powerful than any one of us and because it's a lot more powerful than any one of us it would

00:44:31.620 want to control us or it would want it would not care about us because it's such it's more powerful kind

00:44:38.020 of like we don't care about ants we'll step on ants no problem right because these machines are so

00:44:43.540 powerful they're not gonna care about us and i i sort of get off the train at the first chain of of

00:44:49.860 reasoning but every one of those steps i have problems with um the first step is um the mind

00:44:57.380 is a computer and you know based on what and the idea is oh well if you don't believe that the mind

00:45:05.300 is a computer then you believe in some kind of spiritual thing well you know uh well you have to

00:45:12.740 convince me you you haven't presented an argument but but but but the idea that like speaking of

00:45:18.180 rational but yeah this is what reason looks like right um the the idea that we have a complete

00:45:25.140 description of the universe anyways is wrong right or we don't have a universal physics we have physics

00:45:32.420 of the small things we have physics of the big things we can't really cohere them or combine them

00:45:37.300 so just the idea that you being a materialist is sort of incoherent because we don't have a complete

00:45:42.260 description of the world that's one thing that's a slight argument i'm not gonna no no no it's

00:45:46.020 it's a very interesting argument so so you're saying as someone who i mean you're a scientist

00:45:50.980 you're effectively a scientist um you just state for viewers who don't follow this stuff

00:45:57.220 like the limits of our knowledge of physics yeah so you know we have essentially two conflicting

00:46:02.260 theories of physics these systems can't be kind of married they're not a universal system you can't

00:46:08.420 use them both at the same time well that suggests uh a profound limit to our understanding yes what's

00:46:17.140 happening around us in the natural world does it yes it does and i think uh this is again another error

00:46:22.660 of the rationalist types is that just assume that you know we were so much more advanced in our science

00:46:28.340 than we actually are so it sounds like they don't know that much about science yes

00:46:32.900 okay thank you thank you i'm sorry to ask you to pause yeah that's not even the main crux of my

00:46:38.500 argument uh there is um a uh philosopher slash mathematician slash scientist wonderful his name is uh

00:46:46.900 sir uh roger penrose i love how the british kind of give the sir title someone has accomplished um

00:46:54.180 the uh he wrote this book called the emperor's new mind in the in the uh and it's it's based on you

00:47:02.740 you know the emperor's new clothes the idea the idea that you know the emperor's kind of naked and

00:47:06.740 and uh in his opinion the argument that the mind is a computer is a sort of consensus argument that

00:47:14.740 is wrong the emperor's naked it's not really an argument it's an assertion yes it's an assertion

00:47:19.140 that is fundamentally wrong and the way he proves it is very interesting um there is in mathematics there's

00:47:26.420 uh something called girdle's incompleteness theorem and you know what that says is um there are

00:47:36.020 statements that are true that can't be proved in mathematics so he constructs girdle constructs a

00:47:43.700 like a number uh system where he can start to make statements about this number system so the you know

00:47:51.300 he he creates a statement that's like this statement is unprovable in system f where the

00:47:56.340 where the system is f the whole system is f well if you try to prove it then that then that statement

00:48:03.300 becomes false uh but you know it's true because it's unprovable in the system and roger perno says

00:48:11.540 you know because we have this knowledge that it is true by looking at it despite like we can't prove

00:48:17.460 it i mean the whole feature of the sentence is that it is unprovable um therefore our knowledge

00:48:25.780 is outside of any formal system therefore yes the human brain is or like our mind is understanding

00:48:32.340 something uh that mathematics is not able to give give it to us to describe to describe uh and i thought

00:48:41.620 i the first time i read it again i read a lot of these things like what's the famous you were telling

00:48:46.980 me last night i'd never heard it the bertrand russell self-canceling assertion yeah uh it's like

00:48:52.580 this statement is false it's called a lie it's called a liar paradox what explain why that's just

00:48:59.140 that's gonna float in my head forever why is that a paradox so this statement is false if you uh if you

00:49:05.300 look at a statement and agree with it then it becomes true but if it's true then it's not true it's false

00:49:10.900 and you go through the circular thing and you never stop right it broke logic in a way yes and bertrand

00:49:18.260 russell spent his whole you know big part of his life writing this book uh principia mathematica and

00:49:26.500 he wanted to really prove that mathematics is complete consistent just you know uh decidable

00:49:33.380 computable all of that um and then all these things happen girdles and completes theorem uh turing the

00:49:40.340 inventor of the computer actually this is the most ironic piece of science history that nobody ever

00:49:46.100 talks about but uh turing invented the computer to show its limitation so he invented the turing machine

00:49:53.140 which is the ideal representation of a computer that we have today all computers are turing machines

00:49:59.380 and he showed that um uh this machine uh if you give it a set of instructions it can't tell whether

00:50:07.940 those set of instructions will ever stop will run and stop or it will complete to a stop or will

00:50:14.260 continue running forever it's called the halting problem and this makes this proves that mathematics

00:50:19.700 have uh undecidability it's not fully decidable or computable so all of these things were happening as

00:50:26.180 he was writing the book and you know it was it was really depressing for him because he he kind of went

00:50:33.380 out to prove that you know mathematics is complete and all of that um and uh you know this caused kind

00:50:41.700 of a major panic uh at the time between mathematicians and all of that it's like oh my god like our

00:50:47.540 systems are not complete so it sounds like the deeper you go into science and the more honest you

00:50:54.180 are about what you discover the more questions you have yeah which kind of gets you back to where you

00:50:59.700 should be in the first place which is in a posture of humility yes and yet i see science used certainly

00:51:06.340 in the political sphere i mean those are all dumb people so it's like who cares actually kamala harris

00:51:10.260 lecturing me about science i don't even hear it but so also some smart people like believe the science

00:51:15.540 the assumption behind that demand is that it's complete and it's knowable and we know it and if

00:51:22.020 you're ignoring it then you're ignorant willfully or otherwise right well i my view of science it's a

00:51:27.460 method ultimately it's a method anyone can apply it's it's democratic it's decentralized anyone can

00:51:32.580 apply the scientific method including people who are not trained but in order to practice the method

00:51:37.140 you have to come from a position of humility yes that i don't know that's right i'm using this method

00:51:41.700 to find out and i cannot lie about what i observe right that's right and and today you know it's you

00:51:47.300 know the capital s science is used to control and it's used to um uh propagandize and lie

00:51:54.900 of course a bit you know in the hands of you know just really people who shouldn't have power

00:52:00.420 just dumb people with you know pretty ugly agendas but but we're talking about the world that you live

00:52:05.860 in which is like unusually smart people who do this stuff for a living and are really trying to advance

00:52:11.060 the ball in science and i think what you're saying is that some of them knowingly or not just don't

00:52:18.580 appreciate how little they know yeah and you know they go through this chain of reasoning for this

00:52:23.220 argument and you know none of those are at minimum uh you know a complete uh and like you know they

00:52:33.380 don't just take it for granted if you even doubt that the mind is a computer you're you know i'm sure

00:52:39.300 a lot of people will call me heretic and will call me like you know all sorts of names because it's just

00:52:44.740 dogma that the mind is a computer that the mind is a computer is dogma in technology science

00:52:50.900 that's so silly um yes well i mean let me count the ways the mind is different from a computer

00:52:58.260 first of all you're not assured of a faithful representation of the past memories change

00:53:02.980 over time right in a way that's misleading and who knows why but that is a fact right that's not true

00:53:09.220 of computers that's right i don't think yeah um but how are we explaining things like intuition

00:53:15.860 yeah yeah in instinct those are not well that is actually my question could those ever be features

00:53:21.700 of a machine you could argue that uh neural networks are sort of intuition machines and that's what a lot

00:53:29.060 of people say uh but neural networks you know and maybe i will describe them um just for the audience

00:53:36.740 uh neural networks are inspired by the brain um and the idea is that you can connect a network of small

00:53:46.820 little functions just mathematical functions and you can train it by giving examples you could give

00:53:53.140 it a picture of a cat and if it's yes you know let's say that this network has to say yes if it's a cat

00:53:59.780 no if it's not a cat so you give it a picture of a cat and then the answer is no then it's wrong

00:54:06.420 you adjust the weights based on the difference between the picture and the answer and you do this

00:54:12.500 i don't know a billion times and then the network encodes features about the cat uh and this is

00:54:21.380 literally exactly how neural networks work is is you tune all these small parameters until there's some

00:54:28.900 embedded um feature detection of you know especially in classifiers right um and this is not intuition

00:54:39.060 this is uh basically uh automatic programming the way i see it right of course so we we can write code

00:54:46.340 manually uh you can go to our website write code uh but we can generate algorithms um automatically

00:54:57.620 be a machine learning machine learning essentially discovers these algorithms and sometimes the

00:55:02.740 discovers like very crappy algorithms uh for example like you know you know all the pictures that we

00:55:09.140 gave it of a cat had grass in them so it would learn that grass equals cat the color green equals cat

00:55:18.500 yes and then you give it one day a picture of a cat without grass and it fails or like what happened

00:55:24.740 all turns out it learned the wrong thing so uh because it's obscure what it's actually learning

00:55:32.340 people interpret that as as intuition uh because it's not uh the algorithms are not uh as explicated

00:55:40.420 and there's a lot of work now on trying to explicate these algorithms which is great work for

00:55:44.900 companies like anthropic um but you know i don't think you can call it intuition just because it's obscure

00:55:54.740 so what is it how is intuition different human intuition um

00:56:03.300 we don't you know for one we don't require a trillion examples of cat to learn a cat

00:56:08.980 good good point um you you know a kid can learn uh language with very little examples

00:56:18.180 right now when we're training these large language models like chat gpt you have to give it the entire

00:56:22.660 internet for it to learn language and that's not really how humans work and the way we learn is

00:56:28.500 like we uh combine intuition and some more explicit way of of learning um and i don't think we've

00:56:37.460 figured out how to do it with machines just yet it do you think that structurally it's possible for

00:56:44.660 machines to get there so so so you know this this chain of reasoning um again i can go through every

00:56:57.060 point and present present arguments to the contrary or at least like present doubt but no one is really

00:57:01.620 kind of trying to deal with those doubts um and uh and uh my view is that i'm not holding these doubts

00:57:13.940 you know uh very very strongly but my view is that we just don't have a complete understanding of the

00:57:19.780 mind and you can't you at least can't use it uh to argue that a kind of machine that acts like a human but

00:57:28.500 much more powerful it can kill us all but you know do i think that machine uh you know ai can get

00:57:35.540 really powerful yes i think ai can get really powerful can get really useful i think functionally

00:57:41.540 can feel like it's general ai is ultimately a function of data the kind of data that we put into

00:57:47.860 it it's the functionality is based on this data so we can get very little functionality outside of that

00:57:54.340 actually we don't get any functionality outside of that data it's actually been proven that these

00:57:58.820 machines are just the function of their data the sum total of what you put in exactly garbage in

00:58:04.100 garbage out yeah uh the cool thing about them is they can mix and match different functionalities

00:58:10.260 that they learn from the data so it looks a little bit more general but let's say we collected all data

00:58:15.540 of the world we collected everything that we care about and we somehow fit it into a machine and now

00:58:20.420 everyone's building these really large data centers you will get a very highly capable machine that will

00:58:29.140 kind of look general because we collected a lot of economically useful data and we'll start doing

00:58:37.540 economically useful tasks and from our perspective it will start to look general so i'll call it

00:58:43.540 functionally agi i don't doubt we're sort of headed in some direction like that but but we haven't figured

00:58:51.140 out how these machines can actually generalize and can learn and can use things like intuition for when

00:58:57.700 they see something fundamentally new outside of their data distribution they can actually react to it

00:59:04.180 correctly and learn it efficiently we don't have the science for that so um because we don't have the

00:59:09.860 understanding of it yes on the most fundamental level you began that explanation by saying we

00:59:14.180 don't really understand the human brain so like how can we compare it to something because we don't

00:59:17.220 even really know what it is and there are a couple uh there's a science there's a machine learning

00:59:21.220 scientist francois chalet i don't know how to pronounce uh french names but i think that's his name

00:59:26.900 he um he he took a sort of an iq like test you know where you're rotating shapes and whatever

00:59:32.260 and uh an entrepreneur put a million dollars uh for anyone who's able to solve it using ai

00:59:40.660 and all the modern ais that we think are super powerful couldn't do something that like a 10 year

00:59:46.420 old kid could do and it showed that again those machines are just functions of the data the moment

00:59:53.300 you throw a problem that's novel at them they really are not able to do it now again i used i'm

00:59:59.540 not fundamentally discounting the fact that maybe we'll get there but just the reality of where we

01:00:04.980 are today you can't argue that we're just going to put more compute and more data into this and

01:00:10.180 suddenly it becomes god and kills us all because because that's the argument and they're you know

01:00:14.820 going to dc and they're going to all these places that are springing up regulation this regulation is

01:00:19.700 going to hurt and make american industry it's going to hurt startups it's going to make it hard to

01:00:23.700 compete it's going to give china a tremendous uh um advantage uh and it's going to really hurt us

01:00:30.500 based on these flawed arguments that they're not actually battling with these real questions it

01:00:36.500 sounds like they're not and what gives me pause is not um so much the technology it's the way that the

01:00:41.540 people creating the technology understand people so i think the wise and correct way to understand people

01:00:48.020 is as not self-created beings people did not create themselves people cannot create life as

01:00:54.900 beings created by some higher power who at their core have some kind of impossible to describe spark

01:01:02.420 a holy mystery and for that reason they cannot be enslaved or killed by other human beings that's wrong

01:01:09.860 there is right and wrong that is wrong i mean lots of gray areas that's not a gray area

01:01:13.300 because they're not self-created yes right um i think that all humane action flows from that belief

01:01:22.020 and that the most inhumane actions in history flow from the opposite belief which is people are just

01:01:27.380 objects that can and should be improved and i have full power over them like that's a real that's

01:01:33.140 a totalitarian mindset and it's the one thing that connects every genocidal movement is that belief so

01:01:38.340 i it seems to me as an outsider that the people creating this technology have that belief yeah

01:01:43.140 and you don't even have to be spiritual to have that belief look i um you certainly you certainly

01:01:49.140 don't yeah yeah so i think i think that's actually a rational conclusion based on 100 agree i'll give

01:01:54.180 you one interesting anecdote again from science we've had brains for half a billion if you believe in

01:01:59.460 evolution all that we have had brains for half a billion uh years right um and we've had kind of a human

01:02:07.140 uh like species uh for you know you know half a million year perhaps more perhaps a million years

01:02:18.340 there's a moment in time 40 000 years ago it's called the great leap forward where we see culture we see

01:02:27.540 religion we see drawings we see we saw like very little of that before that tools and whatever and

01:02:34.420 suddenly we're seeing this this cambrian explosion of culture right and pointing to something larger

01:02:41.940 than just like daily needs or the world around them but yeah and it's not we're not we're still not able

01:02:47.540 to to to explain it you know david reich wrote this book it's called i think who we are where we came

01:02:53.300 from in it he talks about uh trying to look for that genetic mutation that happened that potentially

01:03:00.340 created this this explosion and they they have some idea of what it could be and some candidates but

01:03:06.180 they don't really have it right now but you have to ask the question like what happened 30 or 40 000

01:03:11.940 years ago right where it's clear i mean it's indisputable that the people who lived during that

01:03:18.420 period were suddenly grappling with metaphysics yes they're worshiping things there's a clear

01:03:23.940 clear separation between between again the animal brain and the human brain uh and it's clearly not

01:03:32.180 computation like we suddenly didn't like grow a computer in a rain it's it's something else happened

01:03:38.500 but what's so interesting is like the instinct of modern man is to look for something inside the

01:03:43.140 person that caused that whereas i think the very natural and more correct instinct is to look for

01:03:47.780 something outside of man that caused that i'm open to both yeah i mean i i don't know the answer

01:03:52.740 i mean of course i do know the answer but um but i'll just pretend i don't but at very least both

01:03:59.700 are possible so if like you can find yourself to looking for a genetic mutation or change change

01:04:06.340 then you know you're sort of closing out that's not an empiricist a scientific way of looking at

01:04:11.140 things actually you don't foreclose any possibility right yeah science you can't right interesting yeah

01:04:17.380 yeah i know that's uh that's very interesting uh so you know um i i think that uh these machines

01:04:23.700 i'm betting my business that on ai getting better and better and better and it's gonna uh make us all

01:04:31.940 uh better it's gonna make it all more educated okay so okay yeah now now's the time for you to tell

01:04:38.260 me why i should be excited about something i've been hearing yeah so um uh uh this technology large

01:04:48.020 language models where we kind of fed uh a neural network the entire internet and it has capabilities

01:04:57.460 mostly around writing around uh information lookup around summarization around coding uh it does a lot of

01:05:06.100 really useful thing and you can program it to kind of pick and match between these different skills

01:05:11.140 you can program these skills using code um and so the kind of products and services that you can build

01:05:17.460 with this um are amazing so one one of the things i'm most excited about this application of the technology

01:05:25.300 um there's this problem called the bloom's two sigma problem uh there's this uh you know uh scientist

01:05:32.900 that was studying education and um he was looking at different interventions to try to get you know

01:05:40.980 kids to learn better or faster or have just better educational outcomes and he found something kind of

01:05:48.260 bad which is there's only one thing you could do to move kids not in a marginal way but in a two

01:05:58.180 standard deviations from the norm like in a big way like better than 98 of the other kids um by doing

01:06:07.620 one-on-one tutoring using a type of learning called mastery learning uh one-on-one turing is the is the

01:06:14.820 key formula there that's great i mean we discovered the solution to education we can up level everyone all

01:06:22.500 humans on earth the problem is like we don't have enough your teachers to do one-on-one touring it's

01:06:28.820 very expensive you know no country in the world can afford that so now we have these machines that can

01:06:35.860 talk that can teach that can um they can present information uh that you can interact with it in a very

01:06:43.940 human way you can talk to it it can talk to you back right and we can build um ai applications to

01:06:51.860 teach people one-on-one and you can teach you can have it you can serve seven billion people

01:06:59.940 with that and and we can everyone can get smarter i'm totally for that i mean that was the promise

01:07:05.460 the internet didn't happen so i hope this um i'm was gonna save this for last but i can't control myself

01:07:13.140 so i just know being from dc that when uh the people in charge see new technology the first thing

01:07:19.780 they think of is like how can i use this to kill people um so what are the military applications

01:07:25.620 potentially of this technology you know that's one of the other thing that i i i'm sort of very

01:07:30.180 skeptical of this lobbying effort to get government to um to regulate it because like i think the biggest

01:07:36.820 offender would be of abuse of this technology probably government you think you know i watched your

01:07:42.580 interview with uh jeffrey sax um who's like a columbia professor very very mainstream um and uh i think

01:07:52.580 he got assigned to like a lancet um uh sort of study of covid origins or whatever and he he arrived at

01:07:59.860 very at the time heterodox view that it was created in a lab and was created by u.s government um and

01:08:07.780 and and and so you know the the government is supposed to protect us from these things and

01:08:12.980 now they're talking about pandemic readiness and whatever well let's talk about let's talk about

01:08:18.500 how do we watch what the government is doing how do we actually have democratic processes to ensure

01:08:25.540 that you're you're not the one abusing these technologies yes because they're going to regulate

01:08:29.620 it they're going to make it so that everyday people are not going to be able to use these things

01:08:33.380 and then they're going to have free reign on how to you know how to abuse these things just like

01:08:37.620 with encryption right encryption is another one that's right but they've been doing that for decades

01:08:42.900 yes like we get privacy but you're not allowed it because we don't trust you right but by using your

01:08:47.780 money and the moral authority that you gave us to lead you we're going to hide from you everything

01:08:53.860 we're doing and there's nothing you can do about it yeah i mean that's the state of america right now

01:08:57.460 yeah yeah so how would they use ai to further oppress us i i mean you can use it in all sorts of

01:09:04.260 ways like uh autonomous drones we already have autonomous drones they get a lot a lot worse you

01:09:10.420 can uh you know there's a video on the internet where like the you know uh chinese guard or whatever

01:09:16.500 was walking with a dog with a robotic dog and the robotic dog had a gun mounted to it

01:09:21.380 uh and so you can have robotic set of dogs with shooting guns a little sci-fi like you can make

01:09:28.980 it's a dog lover that's so offensive to me it is kind of offensive yeah

01:09:33.940 in a world increasingly defined by deception and the total rejection of human dignity we decided to

01:09:39.700 found the tucker carlson network and we did it with one principle in mind tell the truth you have a god

01:09:46.900 given right to think for yourself our work is made possible by our members so if you want to enjoy an

01:09:53.540 ad-free experience and keep this going join tcn at tucker carlson.com slash podcast tucker carlson.com

01:10:01.460 there was this huge expose in this magazine called 972 about how israel was using um ai to target

01:10:25.300 uh suspects but ended up killing huge numbers of civilians it's called the lavender

01:10:30.500 a very interesting piece um so the the technology wound up killing people who were not even targeted yes

01:10:41.220 it's pretty dark um what about surveillance um

01:10:48.260 i think this recent uh ai

01:10:52.500 boom i think it could be used for service i i'm not sure if it gives a special advantage i think the

01:10:59.540 they can get the advantage by again if these lobbying groups are successful part of their

01:11:06.500 you know their ideal outcome is to is to make sure that no one is training uh large language models and to

01:11:14.420 do that you would need to insert uh surveillance apparatus at the compute level and um and so

01:11:22.340 perhaps that's very dangerous our computers would like spy on us to make sure we're not training

01:11:26.580 ais um i i think you know the kind of ai that's really good at surveillance is kind of the vision ai

01:11:33.380 which china sort of perfected so that's been around for a while now i you know i'm sure there's ways to

01:11:40.100 abuse language models for for surveillance but i can't think of it right now what about manufacturing

01:11:47.620 um it would help with manufacturing right now people are figuring out how to do um

01:11:52.900 uh i invested in a couple companies they uh how to apply this technology foundation models to robotics

01:12:00.740 um it's still early science but you might have a huge advancement and robotics

01:12:06.740 uh if we're able to apply this technology to it so the whole point of technology is to replace human

01:12:12.660 labor either physical or mental i think i mean historically that's what you know the steam engine

01:12:18.020 replaced the arm etc etc so if this is as transformative as it appears to be you're going to have a lot of

01:12:27.460 idle people and that's i think the concern that led a lot of your friends and colleagues to support

01:12:32.420 ubi universal basic income like there's nothing for these people to do so we just got to pay them to

01:12:37.460 exist you said you're opposed to that i'm adamantly opposed to that on the other hand like what's the

01:12:44.020 answer yeah so you know uh there's there's two ways to look at it we can look at the individuals that

01:12:50.020 are losing their jobs which is tough and hard i don't really have a good answer but we can look

01:12:54.820 at it from a macro perspective and when you look at it from that perspective for the most part

01:13:00.820 technology created more jobs over time you know a you know before alarm clocks we had this job called

01:13:08.420 the knocker-opper yeah which goes to your room you kind of pay them it was like come every day at like

01:13:13.300 five yeah they knock on your or ring the village bell right yeah and you know that job disappeared but

01:13:19.620 like we we had you know 10 times more jobs in manufacturing or perhaps you know 100 or 1000

01:13:26.420 more jobs in in manufacturing and so overall i think the general trend is technology just creates

01:13:34.420 more jobs and so like i'll give you a few examples how ai can create more jobs actually you can create

01:13:40.100 more interesting jobs um entrepreneurship is like a very american thing right it's it's like america is the

01:13:48.260 entrepreneurship country but actually new firm creation has been going down for a long time at

01:13:53.220 least 100 years it's just like been going down although we have all this excitement around startups

01:13:58.340 or whatever uh silicon valley is the only place that's still producing startups like the rest of

01:14:03.300 the country there isn't as much startup or new firm creation which is kind of sad because again the

01:14:09.700 internet was supposed to be this you know great wealth creation engine that anyone has access to

01:14:14.260 but the way it turned out is like it was concentrated in this one geographic area well it looked i mean

01:14:20.020 in retrospect looks like a monopoly generator actually yeah but again it doesn't have to be that way and

01:14:25.860 and the way i think ai would help is that it will give people the tools to start businesses because you

01:14:33.300 have this easily programmable machine that can help you with programming i'll give you a few examples we

01:14:38.740 there's a teacher in denver that you know during covet was was a little bored went to our website we

01:14:45.060 have a free course to to learn how to code and uh he learned a bit of coding and uh he used his knowledge

01:14:51.940 as a teacher to build an application that helps teachers use ai to teach and within a year he built a

01:15:00.740 business that's worth tens of millions of dollars that's bringing in a huge amount of money i think he raised 20

01:15:06.580 million dollars uh and that's a teacher who learned how to code and created this massive business really

01:15:13.460 quickly we have stories of photographers doing millions of dollars in revenue uh so it just it's a

01:15:21.140 it's a you know ai will decentralize access to this technology so there's a lot of ways in which

01:15:27.940 you're right technology tend to centralize but there's a lot of ways that people kind of don't really

01:15:32.820 look at in which technology can decentralize well that was i mean that promise makes sense to me i

01:15:37.620 i would just i fervently want it to become a reality i have a we have a mutual friend who show

01:15:41.700 my name was so smart and a good humane person um who was very way up into the subject and participates

01:15:50.900 in the subject and he said to me well one of the promises of ai is that it will allow people to have

01:15:57.860 virtual friends or mates that it will feel you know it will solve the loneliness problem

01:16:05.220 that is clearly a massive problem in the united states and i felt like i don't want to say it

01:16:09.540 because i like him so much but that seemed really bad to me yeah i'm not interested in those

01:16:16.980 i think we have the same intuition about about you know what's what's dark and dystopian versus what

01:16:22.580 and he's a wonderful person but i may i just don't think he's thought about it or i don't know what

01:16:27.060 but we disagree but why just i don't even disagree i don't have an argument just an instinct but like

01:16:31.940 people should be having sex with people not machines right that's right um like i i would go so far as

01:16:39.540 to say some of these applications are like a little unethical like the you know preying on sort of

01:16:44.260 lonely lonely men with no uh with no with no opportunities for for a mate and uh like you

01:16:52.180 know it will make it so that they were actually not motivated to go out and yes and date and get

01:16:57.540 an extra girlfriend like porn 10x yes yes and i think that's really bad that's really bad for society

01:17:03.460 uh and so i think the application look you can apply apply this technology in a positive way or you

01:17:07.700 can apply the negative way you know i would love for this you know doom cult if instead they were

01:17:13.860 like trying to you know make it so that ai is applied in a positive way if we had a cult that

01:17:19.380 was like oh we're gonna lobby we're gonna uh sort of go out and uh you know uh make it make it so

01:17:28.260 that um you know ai is a positive technology i'd be all for that and by the way there are in history

01:17:34.740 there are you know times where the culture self-corrects right i think there's some self-correction on

01:17:40.900 porn that's happening right now um you know uh fast food right i mean if you know just generally

01:17:47.380 junk you're right uh you know everyone is like whole foods is like high status now like you you

01:17:52.820 eat all foods there's a place called foods you can go to that's right and people are interested in

01:17:57.540 eating healthy and chemicals in the air and water another thing that was a very esoteric concern even

01:18:02.660 10 years ago was only the wackos it was bobby kennedy cared about that no one else did now that's like

01:18:07.220 a feature of normal conversation yes everyone's worried about microplastics and the testicles

01:18:12.660 that's right yeah which is i think a legitimate concern absolutely so what i'm not surprised that

01:18:17.540 there are cults in silicon valley i don't think you named the only one i think there are others that's

01:18:20.980 my sense and i'm not surprised because of course every person is born with the intuitive knowledge

01:18:26.980 that there's a power beyond himself that's why every single civilization has worshiped something

01:18:32.500 and if you don't acknowledge that you just it doesn't change you just worship something even

01:18:35.780 dumber yeah but so my question to you as someone who lives and works there is what percentage of

01:18:40.260 the people who are making decisions in silicon valley will say out loud you know not i'm a christian jew

01:18:45.140 or muslim but that like i'm not you know there is a power bigger than me in the universe do people

01:18:51.380 think that do they acknowledge that you know for the most part no um i thought yeah like i think most

01:18:59.940 i don't want to say most people but like you know the vast majority of the discussions seem to be

01:19:05.300 like more intellectual i think people just take for granted that everyone has like a secular mostly

01:19:10.420 secular point of view well i think that you know that the truly brilliant conclusion is that we don't

01:19:16.900 know a lot and we don't have a ton of power that's my view something right right so like the actual

01:19:21.940 intellectual will over time if he's honest will read this is the view of like many scientists and many

01:19:27.460 people who really went deep i mean i don't know who said i'm trying to remember but someone said

01:19:31.380 like the first gulp of science make you an atheist but at the bottom of the cup uh you'll find god

01:19:38.980 waiting for you that's matthias desmet wrote a book about this supposedly about covet it was not about

01:19:44.260 covet i just cannot recommend it uh more strongly but the book is about the point you just made which is

01:19:50.340 the deeper you go into science the more you see some sort of order reflected that is not random at

01:19:58.020 all yes and a beauty exhibited in um in math even uh and the less you know and the more you're certain

01:20:07.700 that this is but there's a design here and that's not human or quote natural it's supernatural that that's

01:20:15.380 his conclusion and i affirm it but how many people do you know in your science world who think that

01:20:25.220 yeah i can count them on on one hand basically how interesting yeah that concerns me because i

01:20:31.220 feel like without that knowledge hubris is inevitable yeah and and you know a lot of these conclusions

01:20:36.980 are from hubris like the the fact that you know there's so many people that believe that ai is an

01:20:42.420 eminent existential threat a lot of people believe that but we're gonna die we're all gonna die in

01:20:46.500 the next five years comes from that hubris how interesting i've never until i met you i've never

01:20:53.540 thought of that that actually that is itself an expression of hubris i never thought of that

01:21:00.820 yeah you can go negative with hubris you can go positive and we're gonna and i think the positive

01:21:06.340 thing is is good like i think elon is an embodiment of that it's like just a self-belief that you can

01:21:11.700 like fly rockets and build electric cars is good and maybe in some cases it's delusional but like

01:21:17.620 net net will kind of put you in a on a on a good path for for creation i think it can go pathological if

01:21:24.100 you um if you you know if you're for example spf and again he's he's kind of part of those groups

01:21:30.500 um just sort of believed that he can do anything in service of his ethics uh including steal and

01:21:40.340 cheat and all of that yeah i don't i never really understood well of course i understood too well i

01:21:45.780 think but the the obvious observable fact that effective altruism led people to become shittier

01:21:55.620 toward each other not better yeah i mean it's such an irony but i feel like it's in the name

01:22:04.020 if you call yourself such grandiose thing you're typically yeah horrible like the islamic state

01:22:11.860 is not neither islamic or state the effective altruists are neither the united nations it's not

01:22:18.420 united no that's boy is that wise so i don't think to your earlier point that any

01:22:25.620 large language model or machine could ever arrive at what you just said the iron because

01:22:33.220 like the deepest level of truth is wrapped in irony always and i don't machines don't get irony right

01:22:39.700 not yet could they um maybe i i mean i i don't think i don't take as strong of a stance as as you are

01:22:47.940 at like the you know the capabilities of the machines i do believe that you know if you represent

01:22:53.060 it well i don't know i mean i'm asking i really don't know what they're capable of well i i think

01:22:57.540 maybe they can't come up with real novel irony that is like really insightful for us but if you put a

01:23:04.180 lot of irony in the data they'll understand right they can ape human iron they can ape i mean they're

01:23:09.060 ape machines they're imitation machines they're literally imitating like you know the way large

01:23:15.540 language models are trained is that you give them a corpus of text and they hide different words and

01:23:20.420 they try to guess them and then they adjust the weights of those neural networks and then

01:23:25.140 eventually they get really good at guessing what humans would say well then okay so you're just kind

01:23:30.020 of making the point unavoidable like if if the machines as you have said it makes sense are the

01:23:35.620 sum total of what's put into them yeah then and that would include the personalities and biases of the

01:23:41.460 people yes putting the data in that's right then you want like the best people the morally best

01:23:47.220 people which is to say the most humble people to be doing that but it sounds like we have the least

01:23:51.540 humble people doing that yeah i think some of them are humble like i wouldn't like i think some people

01:23:56.580 working in ai are really upstanding and and good and want to do the right right thing but there are a

01:24:01.940 lot of people with the wrong motivations coming at it from fear and things like that

01:24:06.260 look this is the other point i will make is that um you know free markets are are good because you're

01:24:12.420 going to get all sorts of entrepreneurs with different motivations uh and and and i think

01:24:18.820 what's what um what determines that the winner is not always the ethics or whatever but it's the

01:24:24.500 larger culture like what what is the what kind of product is pulling out of you if they're pulling

01:24:29.220 the porn and the uh you know companion chat bots whatever versus they're pulling the education

01:24:37.060 and the health care and i think all the positive things that will make uh our life better i think

01:24:44.100 that's really on the on the larger culture i don't think we can regulate that with government or whatever

01:24:50.020 but if the culture creates demand for things just makes us worse as humans then there are entrepreneurs

01:24:59.140 that will spring up and serve this no that's totally right and it is a snake eating its tail at some

01:25:05.300 point because of course you know you you serve the baser human desires and you create a culture

01:25:13.780 that inspires those desires in a greater number of people in other words the more porn you have

01:25:17.540 the more important people want like actually yes

01:25:19.860 i wonder about the pushback from existing industry from the guilds

01:25:38.180 so like if you're the ama for for example you mentioned medical advances that's something that makes

01:25:42.820 sense to me it for for diagnoses which really is just a matter of sorting the data like what's most

01:25:48.900 likely that's right and a machine can always do that more efficiently and more quickly than any

01:25:53.780 hospital or individual doctor so like and diagnosis is like the biggest hurdle yes um that's gonna like

01:26:03.220 that's gonna actually put people out of business right if i can just type my symptoms into a machine

01:26:08.340 and i'm getting a much higher likelihood of a correct diagnosis than i would be after three

01:26:13.780 days the mayo clinic like who needs the mail i actually have a concrete story about that i've

01:26:17.700 i've dealt with like a chronic issue for a couple years uh i spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on

01:26:23.780 on doctors out of pocket get like world's experts and all hundreds of thousands of yes and they

01:26:30.900 couldn't come up with a right diagnosis and eventually it took me like writing a little bit of

01:26:35.940 software to collect the data or whatever but i ran it i ran the ai i used the ai i ran the ai once

01:26:41.460 and it gave me a diagnosis they haven't looked at and i went to them they were very skeptical of it

01:26:45.620 and then we ran the test turns out it was the right diagnosis oh that's incredible yeah it's amazing it

01:26:50.500 changed my life that's incredible but you had to write the software to get there yeah a little bit

01:26:55.380 of software so that's just we're not that far from like having publicly available right and by the

01:27:01.220 the way i i think that anyone can write a little bit of software right right now at replet we are

01:27:05.460 working on a way to generate most of the code for you we have this program called 100 days of code

01:27:11.700 if you give it 20 minutes you know do a little bit of coding every day in like three months you'll be

01:27:19.060 good enough coder to build uh you know a startup i mean eventually you'll get people working for you

01:27:24.420 and you'll upscale and all that but you'll have enough skills and in fact you know i'll put up a

01:27:28.980 challenge out there people listening to this if they go through this and they build something that

01:27:34.260 they think could be a business whatever i'm willing to help them get it out there promoted we'll give

01:27:38.740 them some credits and cloud services whatever just you know tweet at me or something and mention this

01:27:43.860 this podcast and i'll help what's your twitter amasad a-m-a-s-a-d

01:27:51.140 so but there are a lot of entrenched interests i mean i don't want to get into the whole

01:27:55.060 covid poison thing but i'm revealing my biases um but i mean you saw it in action during covid where

01:28:03.860 you know it's always a mixture of motives like i do think there were high motives mixed with low

01:28:08.100 motives because that's how people are you know it's always a buoy base of good and bad but um but to some

01:28:13.860 extent the profit motive prevailed over public health yes that is i think fair to say yes and so they if

01:28:20.500 they're willing to hurt people to keep the stock price up they i mean what's the resistance you're

01:28:26.100 going to get to allowing people to come to a more uh accurate diagnosis with a machine for free yeah

01:28:36.420 so in in some sense that's why i think open source ai people learning how to do some of the stuff

01:28:43.300 themselves is uh is is probably good enough uh of course if there's a company that's building these

01:28:50.900 services it's going to do better but just the fact that this ai exists and a lot of it is open

01:28:56.500 source you can download it on your machine and use it is enough to potentially help a lot of people

01:29:02.580 by the way you should always talk to your doctor i talked to my doctor i'm not giving people advice

01:29:06.420 kind of figure out all this themselves but i do think that uh it's already empowering so that that's

01:29:13.140 sort of step one but for someone like me i'm not going to talk to a doctor until he apologizes to my

01:29:17.300 face for lying for four years right because i have no respect for doctors at all i have no respect for

01:29:22.100 anybody who lies period and i'm not taking life advice and particularly important life advice like

01:29:28.820 about my health from someone who's a liar i'm just not doing that because i'm not insane i don't take

01:29:32.260 real estate advice from homeless people i don't take financial advice from people who are going to jail

01:29:36.100 for fraud so like um i'm sure there's a doctor out there who would apologize uh but i haven't met

01:29:43.620 one yet so for someone like me who's just i'm not going to a doctor until they apologize uh this could

01:29:49.620 be like literally life-saving right so um to the question of whether there's going to be a regulatory

01:29:55.780 capture i think that the the the that's i mean that that's that's why you see silicon valley getting into

01:30:03.620 politics hmm you know a silicon valley uh you know what was always sort of in a politics that you

01:30:11.140 know when i was i remember i came in 2012 it was uh uh early on in my time there was it was the romney

01:30:19.540 obama debate and i was can i just pause yeah imagine a debate between romney and obama who agree on

01:30:28.020 everything yes uh i i didn't see a lot of daylight and and people were just like making fun of romney

01:30:34.820 it's like it was like he said something like binders full of women and kind of that stuck without

01:30:38.660 whatever um and i remember asking everyone around me like who who are you with i was like of course

01:30:45.060 democrats like of course uh it was like why why isn't anyone here for republicans and they're like

01:30:52.100 like oh because they're dumb you know only dumb people are gonna but we're republicans uh and you

01:30:58.500 know silicon valley was this like one state town in a way uh actually look you know there's like um

01:31:07.060 data on like donations by company for for state there's like netflix is 99 percent to democrats and

01:31:15.140 like one percent to uh republicans if you look up the you know diversity of parties in north korea it's

01:31:21.540 actually a little better oh of course it is more choices they have a more honest media too but

01:31:27.060 anyways i mean you see now a lot of people are surprised that a lot of um you know people in

01:31:31.220 tech are going for republicans uh going for trump um and uh particularly mark andreason and ben harwitz

01:31:39.140 uh put out a two-hour podcast talking about they are the biggest venture capitalists in the united states

01:31:44.500 i think uh i don't know on what metric you would you would judge but they're certainly on on their way

01:31:49.540 to be the biggest they're the most i think the best for sure um and uh and they put out what was

01:31:58.980 their i i didn't i should have watched i didn't yeah so they're reasoning for why they would vote for

01:32:05.380 trump by the way you know they would have never done that in like 2018 or 19 whatever uh

01:32:13.220 uh and uh so this this vibe shift that's happening and how is it received uh it's still it's still

01:32:21.300 mixed but but i think you know way better than what would have happened 10 years ago they would

01:32:25.780 have been canceled and they would have no one would ever like no founder would take their money

01:32:29.620 but it's like and i mean again i'm an outsider just watching but andreason harwitz is so big and so

01:32:35.220 influential and they're considered smart and not at all crazy yeah that like that that's gotta change

01:32:42.180 minds if andreason harwitz is doing it yeah yeah it will have certainly changed minds um i think a lot

01:32:48.100 i think you know give people some courage to say i'm i for trump as well at minimum but i think it

01:32:54.820 does change my and they put out the arguments is um you know they put out this agenda called little

01:33:00.180 tech you know there's big tech and they have their lobbying and whatever who's lobbying for little

01:33:04.500 tech like smaller companies companies like ours but much smaller too like you know one two person

01:33:09.700 companies and actually no one is your company would be considered little in silicon valley uh

01:33:18.660 but i want a little company right um so uh but you know scott like really your startups that just

01:33:26.260 started right like you know typically no one is um protecting them sort of politically no one is

01:33:33.620 really thinking about it and it's very easy to disadvantage startups like you just talked about with

01:33:37.940 health care regulation or whatever very easy to create regulators or capture such that companies

01:33:43.780 can't even get off the ground doing their thing um and so they came up with this agenda that like

01:33:49.700 we're going to be the you know the firm that's that's going to be looking out for for that little guy

01:33:55.460 the little tech right which i think is brilliant and you know part of their argument uh for trump is

01:34:01.140 that you know uh the um you know ai for example like the the democrats are really excited about regulating ai

01:34:11.780 um one of the most hilarious things that happened i think uh um kamala harris was uh invited to

01:34:20.100 ai safety conference and they were talking about existential risk and she was like well someone being

01:34:26.980 denied healthcare that's existential for them someone uh whatever that's existential so she

01:34:32.740 interpreted existential risk as like any risk is is existential and so you know that's just one

01:34:37.780 anecdote but like yeah there was this anecdote where she was like ai it's a two-letter word and

01:34:42.820 you clearly don't understand it very well and they're they're moving very fast at at regulating it

01:34:48.100 they put out an executive order that a lot of people think they kind of i mean the the tweaks

01:34:53.300 they've done so far from a user perspective to keep it safe or really like just making sure it

01:34:58.180 hates white people like it's about pushing a dystopian totalitarian social agenda racist social

01:35:06.420 agenda on the country like can is that going to be embedded in it permanently um i think it's a

01:35:11.940 function of the culture rather than the regulation so i think uh the culture was sort of this woke

01:35:17.620 culture uh broadly right in america but certainly in silicon valley and now that the vibe shift is

01:35:25.140 happening i think i think microsoft just fired their dei team microsoft yeah uh i mean it's a huge

01:35:32.500 vibe are they gonna learn to code do you think microsoft perhaps um so uh you know the uh you know

01:35:42.980 i wouldn't pin this on the government just yet but it's very easy oh no no no i i just spent

01:35:46.740 democratic members of congress i know for a fact applied pressure oh they did to the labs like

01:35:51.380 no you can't it has to reflect our values okay yeah yeah so maybe that's where it is that permanent

01:35:57.700 am i always going to get when i type in who is george washington you know a picture of denzel

01:36:02.020 washington you know it's already changing is what i'm saying it's already a lot of these things are

01:36:06.500 being reversed it's not perfect but it's already changing and that's i think it's just a function of

01:36:11.460 the larger culture culture change yeah i think elon buying twitter uh is uh in letting people talk and

01:36:19.700 debate moved the culture to like i think a more moderate place i think he's gone a little more uh

01:36:28.180 you know a little further but like i think that it was net positive on the culture because it was so

01:36:34.820 far left uh it was so far left inside these companies the way they were designing their products

01:36:40.900 such that you know george washington will look like there's like a black george washington yeah

01:36:45.380 have you uh that's just insane right it was like it was verging on insanity well it's lying and that's

01:36:51.300 what freaked me out i mean it's like i don't know just tell the truth there are lots of truths i don't

01:36:54.900 want to hear that don't comport with my you know desires but i don't want to be lied to george

01:37:00.340 washington was not black none of the framers were they were all white protestant men sorry

01:37:04.340 all right yeah so like that's a fact deal with it so if you're gonna lie to me about that um you're

01:37:10.500 my enemy right i think so i mean you're uh and i would say it's a small element of these companies

01:37:15.460 that are doing that yes but they tend to be the control they were the controlling element those like

01:37:21.060 sort of activist folks that were and i was at facebook in 2015 uh and worked at facebook i worked

01:37:28.260 at facebook yeah i didn't know that i worked on open source mostly i worked on react and react

01:37:33.300 native one of the most powerful kind of wave programming user interfaces so i i mostly worked

01:37:39.060 on that i didn't really work on the kind of blue app and and all of that um but i saw the sort of

01:37:45.860 cultural change where like a small minority of activists were just like shaming anyone who is

01:37:51.700 thinking independently and it sent silicon valley in this like sheep-like direction where everyone

01:37:59.780 is afraid of this activist class uh because they can cancel you they can you know uh i think one of

01:38:07.620 the early shots fired there was like brandon ike the inventor of javascript the inventor of the

01:38:12.980 language that like runs the browser uh because the way he votes or donates whatever get get fired from

01:38:20.180 his position as cto of mozilla browser and that was like seen as a win or something and i was like

01:38:28.900 again i was like very politically you know i was not really interested in politics in like 2012 13 when

01:38:34.340 i first came to this country but i just accepted as like oh you know all these people democrats

01:38:39.620 liberal is what you are whatever but i just looked at that i was like that's awful like you know no matter

01:38:47.140 what his political opinion is like you know you're you're you're taking from a man his ability to earn

01:38:54.020 a living eventually he started another browser company and it's good right but uh this like sort

01:38:59.780 of cancel culture created such a bubble of conformism and the leadership class at these companies were

01:39:07.540 actually afraid of the employees so that is the fact that bothers me most silicon valley is defining our

01:39:12.980 future it that is technology we don't have kind of technology in the united states anymore manufacturing

01:39:19.140 creativity has obviously been extinguished everywhere in the visual arts you know everywhere yeah silicon

01:39:23.700 valley is the last yes place important what's the most important yes and so the number one requirement

01:39:31.220 for leadership is courage number one yes number one nothing even comes close to bravery um as a requirement

01:39:36.820 for wise and effective leadership so if the leaders of these companies are afraid of like 26 year

01:39:42.100 old unmarried screechy girls in the hr department like whoa that's really cowardly like shut up

01:39:51.460 you're not leading this company i am like that's super easy i don't know why that's so hard like what

01:39:58.340 the reason i think it was hard it was uh because these companies were competing for talent hand over

01:40:05.620 fist and it was the sort of zero interest era and and sort of uh u.s economy that's right and everyone

01:40:13.700 was throwing cash at like talent and therefore if you offend the sensibilities of the employees even to

01:40:19.700 the you know slightest bit uh you're afraid that they're they're gonna leave or something like that i'm

01:40:26.500 trying to make up an excuse for them but well you would you could answer this question because you are

01:40:30.900 the talent that you know you came all the way from jordan yeah to work in the bay area to be at the

01:40:36.660 center of creativity inside so um the people who do what you do who can write code yeah the basis of

01:40:45.460 all of this are they i don't like they seem much more like you or james demore they just they don't seem

01:40:53.220 like political activists to me for the most part yeah they're they're still uh a segment of the sort of

01:40:58.740 programmer population well they have to be rational because code is about reason right

01:41:04.100 nah i mean this is the whole thing you know it's like i don't think i mean a lot of these people

01:41:07.780 that we talked about are into code and things like that they're not rational really yeah like look i

01:41:12.420 think coding could help you become more rational but you can very easily override that i think that's

01:41:17.380 the basis of it i thought oh if this is true and that is true then that must be true i thought that

01:41:22.180 was the yeah but you know people are very easy very it's very easy for people to just uh you know

01:41:27.780 compartmentalize right i was like now i'm doing coding now i'm doing emotions oh so the brain is

01:41:33.060 not a computer the brain is not exactly exactly that's my point i know you know when so you know

01:41:40.020 i i'm probably you know responsible for the most amount of people learning to code in america because

01:41:45.220 i i was like a um i like built the reason i came to the us is i built this piece of software that

01:41:51.380 was the first to make it easy to uh code in the browser and it went super viral and a bunch of

01:41:57.700 u.s companies started using him including uh code academy uh and i joined them as like a founding

01:42:05.300 engineer they had just started two guys amazing guys that just started and i joined them and we

01:42:09.940 taught like 50 million people how to code you know many of them many millions of them are american

01:42:14.980 um and you know the the uh sort of rhetoric at a time what you would say is like coding is important

01:42:20.580 because you know it'll teach you how to think computational thinking and and all that i sort of like not

01:42:26.580 maybe i've said it at some point but i've never really believed it i think coding is a tool you

01:42:31.780 can use to build things to automate things to it's a fun tool you can do art where they can do a lot of

01:42:37.060 things with it but ultimately i don't think you know you can you know sit people down and sort of

01:42:43.700 make them more rational um and you get into all these weird things if you try to do that you know

01:42:50.180 people can become more rational by virtue of education by virtue of seeing that you know

01:42:56.740 taking a more rational approach to um to their life yields results but you can't you can't like

01:43:04.660 really teach it that way well i agree with that completely that's interesting i just thought it was

01:43:10.180 a certain because i i have to say without getting into controversial territory um every person i've ever

01:43:15.540 met who writes code like is kind of similar in some ways to every other person i've ever met who

01:43:19.620 writes code like it's not true yeah not a broad cross-section of any population no at all well

01:43:27.540 people who make it a career but i think anyone sort of can write a little bit of code i'm sure i mean

01:43:31.300 people who get paid to do it right right yeah um interesting so bottom line do you see and then

01:43:36.900 we didn't even mention elon musk david sachs um have also come out for trump so do you think

01:43:45.540 the vibe shift in silicon valley is real yes actually i would credit sachs in originally like

01:43:51.700 perhaps more than elon because look it's one party state yeah no one watches you for example

01:43:59.380 no one ever watched anything sort of you know i was i don't want to over-generalize but most people

01:44:05.620 didn't get any right wing or center-right opinions for uh for the most part didn't seek it it wasn't

01:44:13.780 there you're swimming and just you know liberal democratic uh sort of talking point

01:44:20.340 i'd say sax uh in the all in podcast was sort of the first time a lot of people started on a weekly

01:44:27.940 basis hearing a conservative doc being david sachs amazing and i would start to hear at parties and

01:44:35.700 things like that people describe their politics as sex sexism like they started calling it they

01:44:40.980 they were like you know i agree with you know most of the time i agree with you know sax's uh

01:44:46.820 point of view on all all in podcast like yeah you're kind of maybe moderate or center-right at

01:44:52.660 this point and he's so reasonable he's first of all he's a wonderful person i in my opinion but um

01:44:59.780 like i didn't have any sense of the reach of that podcast until i did it had no sense at all

01:45:04.820 all and he's like would you do my podcast sure because i love david sachs i do the podcast like

01:45:09.780 everyone i've ever met text me oh you're on all in podcasts like it's it's not my world but i didn't

01:45:16.660 realize that is the vector if you want to reach sort of business-minded people who are not very

01:45:22.580 political but are probably going to like send money to a buddy who's bundling for commonwealth because

01:45:26.980 like she's our candidate yes i mean that's the way to reach people like that that's right

01:45:31.780 right and by the way this is my point about technology can have a centralizing effect but

01:45:36.420 also decentralizing yes so youtube uh you can argue uh youtube is the centralized thing they're pushing

01:45:43.060 opinions on us whatever but you know now you have a platform on youtube after you you got fired from

01:45:48.180 fox right yeah uh you know sax uh can have a platform uh and put these opinions out and i think

01:45:55.780 uh you know there was a moment during covet that i felt like they're going to close everything down

01:46:02.740 yeah uh for good reason you felt that way yes uh and maybe there were maybe there's going to be

01:46:08.260 some other event that that will like allow them to close it down but you know one of the things i

01:46:12.900 really love about america is the first amendment it's just it's just the the most important uh

01:46:18.900 institutional innovation in the history of humanity i agree with that completely and we should

01:46:23.780 really you grew up without it too i mean it must be we should really protect it like we should like

01:46:29.220 we should be so coveting of it like you know we should be you know like your wife or something

01:46:35.460 can you agree hands off yeah can you just repeat your description of its importance historically i'm

01:46:42.500 sorry you put it so well uh it's the most important institutional innovation in human history

01:46:49.380 the first amendment is the most important institutional innovation in human history yes

01:46:54.820 i love that i think it's absolutely absolutely right and as someone who grew up with it in a

01:46:59.460 country that had had it for you know 200 years when i was born um you know you don't you don't feel

01:47:04.980 that way it's just like well it's the first amendment it's like just part of nature right it's like gravity

01:47:08.820 it just exists but as someone who you know grew up in a country that does not have it which is

01:47:13.620 true of every other country on the planet it's the only country that has it um you see it that way

01:47:19.540 you see it as the thing that makes america america well the thing that makes it so that we can change

01:47:24.260 course yes right and and the reason why you know we had this uh you know conformist um uh mob rule

01:47:37.380 mentality that people call woke uh uh you know um the reason that we're now past that almost you

01:47:47.300 know it's still kind of there but we're like we're on our way past that is because of for of the first

01:47:53.140 amendment and free speech and again i would credit elon a lot for buying twitter and letting us talk and

01:47:58.900 can debate and push back on the craziness right it's kind of it's well it's beautiful i've been a direct

01:48:05.620 beneficiary of it as i think everyone in the country has been so i'm not critic and i love elon

01:48:10.420 but i'm i mean it's a little weird that like a foreigner has to do that a foreigner foreign-born

01:48:17.060 person you elon appreciates it in this way it's like it's a little depressing like why didn't some

01:48:23.140 american-born person do that i guess because they don't we don't take it yeah you don't take it for

01:48:27.860 granted i wrote a thread it's like 10 things i i like about america i expected to do well but you

01:48:32.900 know it was like three four years ago it went super viral did wasser journal covered it peggy

01:48:38.500 newton you know called me and it was like i want to write a story about it i was like okay it's like

01:48:42.980 a twitter thread you can read it but uh you know i i and i just like talk about normal things you know

01:48:50.580 free speech one of them but also like hard work appreciation for talent and and all of that

01:48:57.380 and it was starting to close up right i started to see you know meritocracy kind of like

01:49:01.540 being less valued and that's part of the reason why i wrote the thread and what i what i realized

01:49:08.820 is like you know yeah most americans just just don't think about that and don't really value it

01:49:13.860 as much i agree and so maybe you do need you do need oh i think that's absolutely right i um but why

01:49:20.900 do you i mean i have seen i hate to say this because i've always thought my whole life that foreigners

01:49:25.540 um are great you know i like traveling to foreign countries i like my best friend is foreign born

01:49:31.620 actually um as opposed to mass immigration as i am which i am arabs really like you by the way oh

01:49:37.220 well i really like arabs thrown off the brainwashing um just a sidebar i feel like we had a bad experience

01:49:46.100 with arabs 23 years ago and what a lot of americans didn't realize but i knew from traveling a lot of the

01:49:52.100 middle east yeah it was bad it was bad however like that's not representative of the people that

01:49:58.980 i have dinner with in the middle east at all like someone once said to me like those are the worst

01:50:04.340 people in our country and right and no i totally agree with that strongly um i always defend the arabs

01:50:12.180 in a heartfelt way but uh no i i wonder if some of the particularly the higher income immigrants

01:50:23.060 recently i've noticed are like parroting the same kind of anti-american crap that they're learning

01:50:29.700 from the institute you know you come from punjab and go to stanford and all of a sudden like you've

01:50:35.780 got the same rotten decadent attitudes of your native-born professors from stanford do you see that

01:50:42.420 no i'm not sure what's the distribution like i mean speaking of of indians i mean on the right on the

01:50:47.940 right side of the spectrum we have vivek and who's the best yeah who's a perfect example of what i'm

01:50:52.980 saying like yeah vivek has thought through not just like first amendment good but why it's good yeah

01:50:58.180 well i i you know i i'm not sure you know i'm not sure good you know i think it's yeah i think

01:51:05.220 foreigners for the most part do appreciate it more but it's easy you know i talked about how i just

01:51:11.780 you know try not to be you know this conformist kind of really absorb everything around me and and

01:51:16.900 act on it but it's very easy for people to go in these um one-party state places uh and really

01:51:24.740 get you know become part of this like mob mentality where everyone believes the same thing any any

01:51:32.260 deviation uh from that is considered cancelable offense and you know you asked about the shift in

01:51:39.620 silicon valley i mean part of the shift is like yes silicon valley still has a lot of people who are

01:51:43.700 independent minded and they see this sort of conformist type of thinking in the democratic

01:51:50.500 party and that's really repulsive for them where you know there's like a party line it's like biden's

01:51:56.740 sharpest attack sharpest attack everyone says that and then the debates happen oh unfit unfit unfit

01:52:03.220 and then oh he's out oh kamala kamala it's like right it's like you know lockstep and there's like no

01:52:08.820 range there's no there's very little dissent within within that party and maybe republicans i think at

01:52:14.980 some point where we're the same maybe now it's uh it's it's sort of a little different but this is

01:52:20.180 what why people are attracted to to the other side and so by the way this is advice for the democrats

01:52:24.900 like if you want sort of silicon valley back you you know maybe don't be so controlling of opinions and

01:52:34.420 like be okay with more dissent you have to relinquish a little bit of power to do that

01:52:39.140 i mean it's the same as raising teenagers there's always a moment in the life of every parent of

01:52:43.380 teenagers where a child is going in a direction you don't want you know if it's a you know it's

01:52:48.340 shooting heroin direction you have to intervene with maximum force but there are a lot of directions

01:52:52.420 a kid can go that are deeply annoying to you yes and you have to restrain yourself a little bit

01:52:58.900 if you want to preserve the relationship actually if you want to preserve your power over the child

01:53:04.820 you have to pull back and be like i'm not going to say anything that's right this child will come

01:53:09.460 back to my my gravitational pull is strong enough but i'm not going to lose this child because

01:53:15.300 she does something that offends me today that's right you know what i mean

01:53:19.140 um you can't hold too tightly and i feel like they don't understand i feel like the democratic party

01:53:24.500 i'm not an intimate of course i'm not in the meetings but i feel by their behavior that they

01:53:30.260 feel very threatened that's what i see yeah these are people who feel like they're losing their power

01:53:35.780 yes and so they have to control what you say on facebook i mean what yes if you're worried about

01:53:40.660 what people say on facebook you know you've lost confidence in yourself that's right that's right

01:53:45.300 do you feel that yeah and i mean you know then yeah you know uh there's matt taibbi and michael

01:53:50.980 schellenberger and a lot of folks you know did a lot of great work on on censorship yes and the

01:53:57.220 government's kind of uh involvement in that and how they push social media companies i don't know

01:54:04.180 if you can put it just on the democrats because i think part of it happened during the trump

01:54:07.540 administration as well for sure but i think they're more excitable about it that really they

01:54:12.660 really love misinformation as a term which i think is a is kind of a bs term it's a meaningless

01:54:18.340 term it's a meaningless term all that matters is whether it's true or not yeah and the term

01:54:22.420 mis and disinformation doesn't even address the veracity of the claim that's right it's like

01:54:26.660 irrelevant to them whether it's true in fact if it's true it's more upsetting yeah it's like everything

01:54:30.900 what we talked about earlier is just making people stupid by taking their faculty of you're trying to

01:54:36.580 discern uh truth um i think that's you know that's how you actually become rational by like

01:54:43.140 trying to figure out whether something's true or not and then and then being right or wrong and and

01:54:49.860 and then that uh really um kind of uh trains you for having a better judgment what you talked about

01:54:58.100 judgment uh that's how people build good judgment you can't outsource your judgment to the group

01:55:04.980 which again is like feels like what's asked from us especially in in liberal circles is that

01:55:09.860 no fauci knows better two weeks to stop the spread you know take the job stay home wear the mask

01:55:16.900 you know it was just like talking down to us as children you can't discuss certain things on youtube

01:55:23.540 you'll get banned at some point you couldn't say the lab leak theory right which is now the mainstream

01:55:28.100 theory yes um and again a lot of this self-corrected because of the first amendment yeah and elon

01:55:35.540 wow that was uh that was as interesting as dinner was last night a little less profanity but i'm

01:55:41.380 really grateful that you took the time to do this thank you it's it's uh it's absolutely my

01:55:44.500 pleasure it was mine thank you thanks thanks for listening to tucker carlson show if you enjoyed it

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The Tucker Carlson Show - August 01, 2024

Amjad Masad： The Cults of Silicon Valley, Woke AI, and Tech Billionaires Turning to Trump

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