The Tucker Carlson Show - Ana Kasparian： Epstein Cover-Up, Israel Strikes Gaza Church, & the Great American Political Shift

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00:00:32.780 So normally when I do an unconventional interview with like Putin or the president of Iran,

00:00:37.240 people get mad and they ask, you know, why are you talking to him?

00:00:41.120 This is one of those very rare, maybe unique circumstances where people are going to ask you,

00:00:47.680 why are you talking to him?

00:00:49.420 Yeah, yeah.

00:00:50.100 And people are going to get mad.

00:00:51.740 People are going to get very angry, I know.

00:00:53.300 And your producers had been reaching out trying to get me to talk to you for at least a year and a half.

00:01:02.060 And my feelings toward coming on your show went from I would never in a million years

00:01:07.640 to kind of giving myself the opportunity to listen to your podcast,

00:01:14.800 to figure out who you really are.

00:01:16.880 Because of course, I had very strong thoughts about who you are.

00:01:20.660 Really?

00:01:21.480 Yeah, but I realized that it was based on clips that I would watch of you that had gone viral.

00:01:26.740 And they had gone viral because they were offensive or you had said something that was...

00:01:30.220 Viral like syphilis is viral.

00:01:32.160 I mean, pretty much.

00:01:33.560 I mean, you should think of it that way because it was mostly painting you in a very negative light.

00:01:38.160 And to be sure, you and I have some pretty deep disagreements,

00:02:01.920 but I think that some of what you've been talking about lately hits at the heart of what I care most about.

00:02:10.720 And that's the importance of this country representing the American people.

00:02:16.100 The importance of the United States being a sovereign country that has politicians and a government

00:02:23.560 that prioritizes the American people as opposed to a foreign government.

00:02:29.000 And speaking out the way you've been speaking out about some of these issues

00:02:33.080 takes a lot of courage because it goes against the grain and it goes against,

00:02:37.420 I mean, decades of propaganda and conditioning in American media.

00:02:42.460 And so to me, that commonality that you and I share made me a lot more open-minded to coming on this show

00:02:50.960 because I do think that Americans from across the political spectrum

00:02:57.920 need to find areas of agreement, especially as it pertains to making this country better

00:03:05.060 so we can apply appropriate pressure on our politicians and get them to represent us.

00:03:11.420 Regardless of the corruption, regardless of the influence of foreign governments,

00:03:16.140 at the end of the day, these politicians are nothing if it weren't for the American people, right?

00:03:22.880 So like right now, what's really interesting is in Congress,

00:03:26.580 it appears that there's this bipartisan effort to force a vote to release the Epstein files.

00:03:34.380 And the only reason why that's happening is because there's a very loud and aggressive portion of the MAGA base

00:03:41.780 that's demanding it and they're not letting it go.

00:03:44.560 And I commend them because I agree with them.

00:03:47.260 I think we need transparency.

00:03:48.360 We need to know whether or not we literally have members in our government

00:03:53.460 or influential people, you know, in the periphery of our government who are pedophiles.

00:03:58.940 I want to know.

00:03:59.780 I think that's fair.

00:04:01.040 Yeah.

00:04:01.240 It's interesting, the framework that you laid out, the government of any country ought to be sovereign,

00:04:09.360 which is to say it should make most of its big decisions on the basis of what's good for the people that it represents.

00:04:15.060 And it's bad when foreign countries control your country.

00:04:19.640 Those don't strike me as hateful statements at all.

00:04:22.940 Those aren't expressions of animus against anybody, are they?

00:04:26.120 I don't think they're hateful statements at all.

00:04:29.040 I'm an American.

00:04:29.900 I love this country.

00:04:30.860 I love the people in this country.

00:04:32.400 And I don't want to live in this ridiculous, like, perversion of the American government

00:04:39.480 where they pretend to represent us.

00:04:42.000 But in reality, Americans are on the back burner.

00:04:45.460 Our tax dollars are being taken from us not to help Americans who need help,

00:04:50.840 but to give all sorts of subsidies to private industries that are already doing really well.

00:04:57.460 Okay, they don't need extra subsidies or tax cuts or things like that.

00:05:00.740 But in addition to that, all the foreign aid that we're pumping into the Middle East, Israel, right?

00:05:06.220 Oftentimes when we talk about foreign aid that goes to Israel, at this point, I believe it's about,

00:05:10.120 what, $4 billion a year on top of all of the military aid that we've been pumping into Israel

00:05:15.940 over the last two years.

00:05:17.340 I mean, it's unacceptable to me that we're doing that.

00:05:21.340 And in the backdrop of that, you have the United States Congress cutting $1.1 trillion to Medicaid.

00:05:29.120 Really?

00:05:29.780 That's the problem?

00:05:30.580 That's where we need to cut funding from?

00:05:32.600 By the way, also cutting funding to food assistance?

00:05:35.580 How do you justify sending tens of billions of dollars to Israel in the last two years alone

00:05:41.000 while targeting cuts to Medicaid and food stamps?

00:05:46.320 It makes me beyond angry.

00:05:49.060 I think it's so unbelievably unjust.

00:05:51.860 And if you speak out about it the way I'm doing right now, I'm sorry, I'm getting like

00:05:54.980 kind of aggressive.

00:05:56.500 If you speak out about it like I am right now, people try to smear you as an anti-Semite.

00:06:01.520 And you know what?

00:06:02.300 I'm not an anti-Semite.

00:06:03.520 I know what's in my heart.

00:06:04.960 And I'm not going to let those smears stop me from saying what I know is correct

00:06:10.060 and what's morally just.

00:06:12.520 Is it possible that people are slandered in order to prevent conversations like this

00:06:21.040 from happening in the first place?

00:06:23.520 So you said, I was hesitant to come on the show.

00:06:26.940 So I mean, the reason we wanted to book you and a bunch of people who worked for me had

00:06:31.920 the same feeling is that it was what you just said.

00:06:35.860 Like we can disagree on all kinds of things, but if the fundamental orientation is the U.S.

00:06:40.740 government ought to make a good faith effort to improve the lives of Americans, that's

00:06:44.560 not a partisan statement.

00:06:45.480 That's not a crazy out there sentiment at all.

00:06:48.520 And we saw that.

00:06:49.380 It was like, oh yeah.

00:06:50.340 And then you're like, yeah, but he's a Nazi.

00:06:53.540 I can't do the Nazi show.

00:06:56.760 I mean, yes.

00:06:57.060 So you sort of want, like I have all kinds of stupid opinions.

00:07:00.880 I've said all kinds of stupid things.

00:07:02.220 I've had ugly opinions in the past.

00:07:03.980 I'm not defending every opinion I have had or even currently have.

00:07:07.260 I'm merely saying to reduce someone to a caricature is a kind of tactic to prevent anyone

00:07:14.740 from having like a real conversation with the person.

00:07:17.020 It's meant to discredit.

00:07:18.540 And yeah, you're right.

00:07:19.500 It's meant to stop these types of conversations from happening.

00:07:23.320 Now, you are very conservative.

00:07:25.880 I'm not very conservative.

00:07:27.380 I have some views that lean more conservative than progressives feel comfortable with, and

00:07:33.240 that's okay.

00:07:34.000 But at the end of the day, what drives my politics is this desire for everyone to thrive economically.

00:07:41.740 And you know, you've been speaking out about that.

00:07:43.500 Well, how is that?

00:07:44.180 So what is the difference?

00:07:45.100 If I could, I mean, I would hope that would be like everyone's desire.

00:07:49.500 It's not.

00:07:50.040 It's not, no.

00:07:50.880 Right, at all.

00:07:52.160 But what does it mean to be, not to get too philosophical here, but what does it mean

00:07:57.220 to be conservative or liberal like at this point?

00:07:59.860 Well, I don't think that the political labels that we currently have in this country make

00:08:03.980 much sense anymore, to be honest with you.

00:08:05.940 So, but I'm talking about like traditional conservatism, you know, I believe in reproductive rights

00:08:11.820 to a point, you know, I know that you're anti-abortion.

00:08:14.720 Big time.

00:08:15.000 Yeah.

00:08:15.280 So like, that's a disagreement we have.

00:08:16.860 And I'm not at all going to like come on this show and capitulate on my beliefs.

00:08:21.660 Right.

00:08:21.900 But I think that those are important issues.

00:08:24.740 I'm not minimizing them.

00:08:26.520 But I feel that we can't even really engage in a real debate about policy or specific issues

00:08:33.600 unless we know we have a sovereign, we're living in a sovereign country and we have a government

00:08:38.100 that actually has interest in representing us.

00:08:40.260 Right.

00:08:40.440 Because it doesn't, it doesn't really matter otherwise.

00:08:43.000 Right.

00:08:43.140 So if, you know, people keep voting for different things, but get the same result.

00:08:50.020 Exactly.

00:08:50.920 Then the system is fake.

00:08:52.680 And that's the point where people start to go crazy and do radical violent things, which

00:08:56.680 I'm completely opposed to.

00:08:57.940 I just want to say that at the outset, I hate violent radicalism more than anything.

00:09:02.180 And I feel like that's the result of people realizing their system is fake.

00:09:06.800 So you have to make it kind of real.

00:09:08.100 You're right about that.

00:09:09.360 And, you know, we've been seeing more and more political violence in this country and

00:09:13.920 it's terrifying.

00:09:15.440 I mean, I'm not justifying it, but I can explain why it's happening, you know, and I don't want

00:09:20.600 things to devolve further.

00:09:22.460 And here's the other reason why I decided to come.

00:09:25.260 So I knew that you moved here.

00:09:27.220 You moved to like a rural part of the country and I live in a big city and I think that living

00:09:33.460 in a big city and spending most of your time in a big city kind of blinds you to the

00:09:38.640 rest of America.

00:09:39.780 A lot of Americans live in rural parts of the country.

00:09:42.360 Yes.

00:09:42.680 And I want the opportunity to like speak to them, like get to know them, understand where

00:09:48.060 their hearts and their minds are at.

00:09:49.520 And so I saw it as an opportunity to like expose myself to people that I otherwise wouldn't

00:09:54.480 get an opportunity to speak to.

00:09:56.380 And, you know, you I think you've hired like drivers to bring people, you know, to where

00:10:02.020 you're at.

00:10:02.560 It's very far away.

00:10:03.260 Yes.

00:10:03.480 Yeah.

00:10:03.800 The airport's very far.

00:10:04.560 But I love that because they're not like, you know, they're not Uber drivers.

00:10:09.720 They're like unemployed loggers and stuff.

00:10:11.380 No, but they are.

00:10:12.280 I know.

00:10:12.740 I can't tell you how much I've enjoyed having conversations with them.

00:10:16.420 So one of the drivers who picked me up, Jen, she mentioned the big, beautiful bill that

00:10:22.440 just passed.

00:10:23.200 And, you know, I can tell she identifies as Republican and she wasn't happy with that

00:10:28.000 bill.

00:10:28.900 And I suspected that most ordinary working class Americans, whether they're Democrats

00:10:33.260 or Republicans, are not happy with that bill.

00:10:35.340 Yes.

00:10:35.600 You know, the $1.1 trillion in cuts to Medicaid, that's what she brought up.

00:10:38.960 She brought that up.

00:10:40.020 And I thought that was really fascinating.

00:10:42.360 Now, if you talk to someone who identifies as a liberal Democrat, they'll probably think,

00:10:47.800 oh, these Republican voters, they're so greedy.

00:10:50.160 All they want is tax cuts.

00:10:51.400 They want to cut the social safety net.

00:10:52.920 But no, actually, when it comes to ordinary people, there's a lot of agreement, a lot

00:10:57.460 of agreement.

00:10:58.560 A lot of people are suffering right now.

00:11:00.840 And, you know, you have all these different industries, especially, you know, beginning

00:11:06.240 in the 90s, offshoring, you know, all these jobs that have been destroyed.

00:11:11.740 I mean, most people work in the service sector at this point and manufacturing jobs are gone.

00:11:18.320 I think that's part of the reason why Donald Trump has been so appealing to the MAGA base.

00:11:24.280 Without question.

00:11:24.880 Right.

00:11:25.240 And so I want ordinary people to just consider the contradiction here.

00:11:32.300 So if you're a liberal Democrat and you're under the assumption that Republican voters

00:11:36.160 are just greedy and they want to cut the social safety net, why would they love Trump

00:11:41.580 so much who ran as an economic populist?

00:11:44.640 Now, I don't think that Trump has carried out his promises because of, well, there's

00:11:51.760 a lot of different examples I can cite, but the most recent is the so-called Big Beautiful

00:11:55.600 Bill.

00:11:56.320 Yeah, there are some provisions in there.

00:11:58.520 No tax on tips.

00:11:59.800 It's going to be means tested.

00:12:01.600 And it also expires in four years, whereas the tax benefits that disproportionately benefit

00:12:07.100 the wealthy are permanent.

00:12:08.360 The no tax on, you know, the elderly or Social Security, that also will expire and it's up

00:12:15.480 to a certain amount.

00:12:16.240 I think it's like $6,000 if I'm not mistaken.

00:12:19.160 The child tax credit, I think, was just peanuts compared to what I think this country could afford

00:12:24.820 in helping families.

00:12:26.420 You want to encourage people to have kids?

00:12:28.320 Yeah.

00:12:28.740 Okay.

00:12:29.020 Best way to do it is to create an economic situation where couples feel comfortable bringing

00:12:33.800 life into this world.

00:12:34.920 I agree.

00:12:35.180 You know, and then no tax on overtime.

00:12:38.600 That's another example.

00:12:39.640 That's also means tested.

00:12:41.300 And that's a provision that will expire in 2028.

00:12:45.340 It's just interesting to see which provisions are permanent and which are set to expire in

00:12:52.220 four years when, you know, Trump is done with his term.

00:12:55.160 So if you really want to represent the working class, you got to put your money where your

00:12:59.220 mouth is.

00:12:59.800 And I haven't really seen it to the extent that Trump claimed he was going to help the working

00:13:04.120 class in this country.

00:13:05.720 Interesting.

00:13:06.380 Yeah.

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00:16:44.500 So, when did you, like, have your views changed?

00:16:49.080 I have some views that have definitely changed, yeah.

00:16:51.940 I wouldn't say that I, like, swung from far left to far right.

00:16:55.060 I don't know.

00:16:55.480 Yeah.

00:16:56.220 I don't even know what that means, actually.

00:16:58.500 I mean, I don't think I can answer the question, so I don't know why I'm asking it of you.

00:17:02.240 But, like, what do the terms mean now?

00:17:05.340 And for whatever it's worth, I've settled on people who are honest, people who lie.

00:17:10.560 Right.

00:17:10.840 And that's, like, the only division, maybe have the honest party, the liar party, or something, you know, in the future.

00:17:17.280 But clearly, you've started thinking things or thinking through things that you hadn't before.

00:17:24.820 And God bless you, that's, like, the greatest privilege of adulthood.

00:17:28.380 You get to think for yourself.

00:17:29.420 It's happened to me a lot.

00:17:30.700 But how did that start?

00:17:34.220 Well, I mean, it started with, like, personal experiences.

00:17:41.480 And it often does, right?

00:17:42.780 Like, often your policy preferences will slap you in the face.

00:17:48.700 And then you're like, oh, I don't like that, you know?

00:17:51.860 Right.

00:17:52.200 No, I get it.

00:17:52.940 You know, because sometimes there are unintended consequences.

00:17:55.780 I'll give you a specific example.

00:17:57.000 So I was very much supportive of the defund the police movement in 2020.

00:18:03.220 And it was because, you know, you see this video of a man, like, dying on camera with a police officer refusing to, like, you know, ease up on him.

00:18:14.100 And it really made me angry.

00:18:15.900 I felt that it was...

00:18:17.380 Whatever you think about George Floyd, I don't care, right?

00:18:19.740 Like, what was happening in that moment, in that video, was so disgusting to me and so unjust.

00:18:27.540 And so I was like, no, I totally bought the narrative that it's not actually about, like, abolishing police.

00:18:34.620 It's about, you know, taking some of that funding and investing in social services or in social workers.

00:18:42.380 So social workers respond to certain calls instead of the police.

00:18:47.040 That actually has ended up being pretty disastrous in California, in Los Angeles in particular, because I've seen it firsthand.

00:18:53.520 And you're from there.

00:18:54.360 I'm from there.

00:18:55.280 My best friend since childhood, she's a social worker herself.

00:18:59.120 And I've talked to other social workers about what their experience has been like.

00:19:04.540 And they're like, I actually interviewed one for a piece I wrote for Real Clear Investigations.

00:19:09.020 And she told me, look, it hasn't really worked out the way people have thought it would work out.

00:19:16.600 Oftentimes, we'll go to a call.

00:19:18.640 And it's supposed to be a nonviolent person or, yeah, a nonviolent call.

00:19:23.320 Someone's having a mental health episode.

00:19:25.340 But they'll show up, and oftentimes, it'll be someone who does have a weapon.

00:19:30.600 It's not a gun, but it's maybe a knife.

00:19:34.080 And they feel threatened, so they have no choice but to call the police.

00:19:40.980 And so in 2021, the Los Angeles City Council, you know, was inspired by BLM.

00:19:48.620 And they decided to take $150 million away from the LAPD's budget and instead invest it in other services.

00:19:57.060 It actually ended up being even more.

00:20:00.160 We're spending more on police, more on the LAPD than we ever have, like record amounts.

00:20:06.540 And the reason why is because you have to really ask yourself before you make these decisions, okay, do we need this many officers?

00:20:16.700 Let's compare Los Angeles to other huge cities.

00:20:20.340 What's the police officer or sworn officer to citizen ratio?

00:20:25.080 And in LA, it's always been historically lower, much lower than other major cities.

00:20:31.620 So at the peak of the LAPD and the number of sworn officers in the LAPD, we had about 10,000.

00:20:39.340 After the cuts and after all the difficulty in recruiting new sworn officers, because people don't want to be police officers anymore for understandable reasons.

00:20:47.100 It's not a desirable job when you have people constantly, you know, talking about how terrible cops are.

00:20:52.940 So now we have about 8,500.

00:20:56.520 And as a result, the remaining sworn officers are working insane overtime, like crazy.

00:21:04.580 Like we have one police officer in the LAPD.

00:21:08.240 I think his name is Nathan Corey.

00:21:10.140 He made $600,000 one year because of police overtime.

00:21:14.140 So right now, taxpayers in Los Angeles-

00:21:15.660 He made $600,000?

00:21:16.640 Yes, yes.

00:21:18.140 So right now, taxpayers in LA are kind of confronted with this situation where they're paying far more for less as it pertains to policing.

00:21:29.280 Since there is a shortage, there's longer wait times if you call 911 and you need help.

00:21:35.140 Some people complain that they'll call.

00:21:37.780 And if it's not, like, let's say someone was the victim of a burglary.

00:21:40.280 Obviously, you're not in imminent danger.

00:21:42.880 So they'll call the cops and hope that someone will show up, you know, take fingerprints and maybe find who burglarized them.

00:21:50.120 They never do.

00:21:50.700 But they don't show up for hours.

00:21:52.720 And people get really upset.

00:21:54.000 And they're like, why is this happening?

00:21:55.180 And what's really interesting is I try to explain why it's happening.

00:21:59.680 And I get called all sorts of names for doing it.

00:22:02.080 But I don't care.

00:22:02.940 The truth is the truth.

00:22:03.780 Wait, wait.

00:22:04.260 What do you...

00:22:04.860 I mean, okay.

00:22:06.380 First of all, why are you one of the only people willing to admit you were wrong about defund the police?

00:22:12.880 Like, why were you willing to say, again, bless you, it's the beginning of growth.

00:22:18.820 But I've done it myself many times.

00:22:21.000 But why were you willing to admit that?

00:22:24.600 Because at the core of who I am, I think as a journalist, you know, I didn't enter this line of work to be a mouthpiece for anyone.

00:22:35.500 I really care about the truth.

00:22:37.720 And I feel that if you want to live in a democracy, you have to make sure that people are getting accurate information to make the right decisions for themselves once they're casting a ballot.

00:22:49.340 Right.

00:22:49.880 And so I felt angry because I felt misled by the media.

00:22:55.040 Yep.

00:22:55.740 And now, you know, it was partly my fault, too, because I was in a bubble and I was only getting one side of every story.

00:23:05.120 And even if I agree with that side, I should at least hear what the opposing argument is.

00:23:10.400 And I wasn't going out of my way to do that before.

00:23:12.880 Now I do.

00:23:13.960 And so I see things as far more complex and nuanced.

00:23:17.140 And it's hard to make an argument that's going to appease any audience at this point.

00:23:22.580 Because I think a lot of Americans have been conditioned to be partisan and prioritize partisanship before truth.

00:23:30.480 And I think truth is what will set us free.

00:23:33.840 Genuinely, truth will help us ensure that we have a better government.

00:23:39.880 And I'm sorry, one side or the other does not have a monopoly on the truth.

00:23:45.120 They just don't.

00:23:45.860 And one side might get something right one time.

00:23:49.200 The other side might have a good point when it comes to a different issue.

00:23:52.340 And I think we just need to be open minded.

00:23:54.300 And more importantly, we need to have conversations with people.

00:23:57.340 Because if you just rely on what the media is saying about a particular political figure or a particular media figure,

00:24:06.000 why are you letting them tell you what to think about individuals?

00:24:10.000 Why don't you actually do a little bit of digging or have these conversations yourself and try to figure out who these people really are?

00:24:17.340 You know, like the speech you gave at Turning Point, you said a few things in there that I might not agree with.

00:24:25.720 But like the overall message was so courageous.

00:24:28.800 And I never thought in a million years I would hear it at a conservative conference.

00:24:32.200 Never.

00:24:32.920 It's just interesting.

00:24:34.420 Well, I mean, you know, the truth is wherever it is.

00:24:36.740 And you try to recognize it, but I hope I'm going to give you my text.

00:24:40.880 And I want you to text me, if you will, criticism of what you're saying now.

00:24:46.360 Okay.

00:24:46.900 Because I want to keep a list of people who are offended by what you're saying just in my head.

00:24:51.180 Like, how could anyone be offended by what you're saying now?

00:24:55.200 Yeah.

00:24:55.940 Well, it might not be.

00:24:57.900 I mean, you're not the criminal here.

00:24:59.480 Yeah.

00:24:59.920 Well, let me just be honest with you.

00:25:01.240 I think that most people who are going to attack me aren't even going to listen to this interview.

00:25:04.520 It's just the fact that we're having a conversation with each other.

00:25:09.060 But I take offense to people trying to police who I can talk to.

00:25:14.080 In fact, the more they try to police me, the more I want to talk to the person they forbid me to speak to.

00:25:21.140 Honestly, I've always been like that.

00:25:23.060 I've been like that since I was a kid.

00:25:24.280 My mom knows it better than anyone.

00:25:26.160 I'm just a little bit rebellious.

00:25:27.960 And I don't like to be told what to do.

00:25:30.140 I hate it.

00:25:30.720 And what to think.

00:25:32.840 Yeah.

00:25:33.100 And who you can talk to.

00:25:34.660 I mean, that's like the most, that's a core decision.

00:25:37.740 Who do I associate with?

00:25:39.280 Yeah.

00:25:39.960 Who are my friends?

00:25:41.360 Who am I having dinner with?

00:25:42.300 Who do I marry?

00:25:43.200 I mean, if you allow other people to make those decisions for you, you're not free.

00:25:46.920 No, you're not.

00:25:47.740 And, oh my God, what a terrible career path to be a journalist who doesn't get to have conversations with people that they're curious.

00:25:58.540 I'm curious about you.

00:25:59.620 I am.

00:26:00.360 You were a neocon.

00:26:02.100 Yeah, I was.

00:26:03.320 I became.

00:26:03.800 It's hard to believe that.

00:26:04.760 It is hard to believe that.

00:26:05.480 I became politicized in the lead up to the Iraq invasion in 2003.

00:26:12.040 Yes.

00:26:12.300 I was in high school.

00:26:13.440 And I remember in 2002, I went to like a hippie, you know, magnet school.

00:26:18.500 And we had peace day annually.

00:26:20.600 And I remember giving a speech in 2002 to make the case against the preemptive war in Iraq.

00:26:28.100 And I remember, you're going to laugh at this.

00:26:31.860 I remember in English class, we were reading a play, The Glass Menagerie, which I found deeply boring.

00:26:37.760 And I had like, yeah, I had a cutout of a New York Times article in which Bill Kristol was one of the people the reporter interviewed.

00:26:44.500 And, you know, Bill Kristol loves war, loves war.

00:26:48.920 Hardcore neocon.

00:26:49.840 And I just remember like just sitting in that English class, reading his quotes and seething over it and thinking to myself, I can't wait to one day get an opportunity to like confront him.

00:27:02.100 And I actually did get that opportunity.

00:27:03.920 It wasn't about war, but it was a Politicon panel debate about health care.

00:27:09.360 And, you know, I kind of brought up the fact that Israel has universal health care and Americans don't.

00:27:15.360 What did he say?

00:27:16.360 He was so unprepared.

00:27:17.780 There's like a picture of him, like, like he has index cards, like someone wrote notes down for him and he's just like fumbling with the index cards.

00:27:23.980 He doesn't know what to do.

00:27:24.900 And then once the whole panel discussion was over, someone who was with me overheard him say, damn it, she came prepared.

00:27:31.980 Something along those lines.

00:27:33.540 It's arrogance.

00:27:34.520 It's people who've been told since they were small that they're brilliant.

00:27:37.480 You know, you know, Bill Kristol, Ted Cruz.

00:27:40.120 I mean, it does distort you and it actually makes you dumb paradoxically over time.

00:27:44.600 Definitely.

00:27:45.440 Yeah.

00:27:45.460 Because you're never pressed.

00:27:47.360 You've got to stay humble.

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00:30:01.500 Okay.

00:30:02.360 So you, I just wanted to emphasize that point.

00:30:05.480 You would, you came to the conclusion that you were wrong and you said so out loud.

00:30:09.040 Yeah.

00:30:09.160 And to me, that's the acid test.

00:30:11.900 Is someone honest?

00:30:13.060 I don't know.

00:30:13.820 Will that person admit being wrong?

00:30:16.180 That's when we know.

00:30:16.940 Yeah, totally.

00:30:17.960 And, okay, so you live in the same place.

00:30:22.400 That's also hugely helpful because you can see it over time.

00:30:25.100 The same place.

00:30:25.980 True.

00:30:26.260 You know Ventura Boulevard.

00:30:27.420 You've lived near it your whole life.

00:30:28.620 Right.

00:30:29.560 So what did you start to notice?

00:30:31.340 Like, what is it like?

00:30:32.080 What are the effects?

00:30:34.000 Well, I started noticing that homelessness really exploded in Los Angeles.

00:30:39.880 Like, it's always been a problem in LA.

00:30:42.100 Yeah.

00:30:42.460 But it now touches every, like, square mile of that county.

00:30:50.240 And it's just gotten, during COVID, it was unbelievably bad.

00:30:54.320 And I just felt like it was inhumane seeing what was going on.

00:30:59.420 And it wasn't just that there were a lot of homeless people.

00:31:01.460 It was that there were a lot of homeless people with, like, severe, severe, like, mental health issues.

00:31:07.620 Yes.

00:31:08.480 And they can't make decisions for themselves.

00:31:10.940 They're, like, literally, I can't tell you how many times on my way to work on the freeway, I almost hit a mentally ill homeless person who's on the freeway.

00:31:20.640 On 405?

00:31:21.260 Yes, yes.

00:31:22.640 And I can't imagine what I would go through for the rest of my life if I ever hit someone with my car, you know?

00:31:30.360 But, like, why are we living in a society that, like, thinks that this is okay?

00:31:33.620 This is not okay.

00:31:34.520 This is not okay.

00:31:35.980 The drug addiction, not just in LA, all across the country.

00:31:40.600 Has there been any effort to do anything about this?

00:31:43.300 Zero.

00:31:44.040 Zero.

00:31:44.440 And it makes me really angry.

00:31:45.800 The Sacklers are still billionaires.

00:31:47.480 Yep, exactly.

00:31:48.420 And it's just, I find it to be, you want to talk about treason.

00:31:53.200 Politicians who let this kind of stuff happen to the Americans, they're supposed to represent.

00:31:56.780 And people mistake that as me being anti-homeless.

00:32:00.060 No, no.

00:32:00.760 The people who defend what's happening right now, they're anti-homeless.

00:32:03.840 Seven people died of drug overdose on the same corner near where I live in a two-week span.

00:32:10.980 Seven people.

00:32:12.600 Same corner.

00:32:14.440 That wasn't a big scandal.

00:32:16.100 The city council member who represents my district wasn't asked about it.

00:32:20.000 She didn't have to defend herself.

00:32:21.800 She's one of these city council members who keeps voting on the dumbest policies that do

00:32:27.240 nothing to actually help these people, but somehow justifies the continuation of the

00:32:32.160 same failed policies that have led to all of these overdose deaths, all of these people

00:32:37.240 with mental health issues not getting the health that they need.

00:32:40.080 It's awful.

00:32:41.000 The whole situation is awful.

00:32:42.280 I mean, I lived in LA as a child.

00:32:44.960 I've worked there on and off my whole life.

00:32:47.100 I really love Los Angeles.

00:32:49.540 I'll admit that.

00:32:51.560 I just love it.

00:32:52.600 It's just a truly American city.

00:32:54.360 The architecture is...

00:32:55.500 It's beautiful.

00:32:56.160 ...unique to LA or was.

00:32:58.120 It's just an amazing...

00:32:59.300 It's what an ambitious, hopeful, affluent country builds when they get to the end of

00:33:05.000 the continent.

00:33:05.780 Yeah.

00:33:06.200 You know, it's like, wow, there's nowhere else to.

00:33:07.580 Let's build something amazing.

00:33:08.780 And they built Los Angeles.

00:33:09.900 And I just...

00:33:10.460 I've always loved it in my heart.

00:33:13.060 So I go back there.

00:33:14.460 I'm going back next month.

00:33:15.820 And I'm shocked by it.

00:33:17.540 Yeah.

00:33:17.720 I can't even believe it.

00:33:19.300 The encampment outside the Veterans Building in Brentwood.

00:33:22.620 I'm like, what is going on here?

00:33:24.840 And no one ever says anything.

00:33:26.340 Well, but I don't live there.

00:33:27.060 You tell me.

00:33:27.680 Do people talk about this a lot?

00:33:29.020 They talk about it privately.

00:33:30.400 But it's really interesting because while there's this openness in regard to the failed

00:33:35.840 policies in private discussions, no one wants to say anything publicly because you'll get

00:33:41.860 the kind of treatment I've gotten.

00:33:43.240 The people are dying on the street.

00:33:45.040 Yep.

00:33:45.180 Seven people at one intersection.

00:33:47.120 Yep.

00:33:48.080 Seven people.

00:33:49.120 Americans.

00:33:49.860 And that's like verboten to talk about?

00:33:52.060 How?

00:33:52.740 Why?

00:33:53.020 Oh, you're stigmatizing your unhoused neighbors.

00:33:55.200 I can't tell you how many times I've heard that statement.

00:33:57.160 You're stigmatizing your unhoused...

00:33:58.620 It's like, no.

00:33:59.520 They're dead.

00:34:00.260 And I feel bad about it.

00:34:01.620 Yeah.

00:34:02.080 No, I'm stigmatizing the very politicians who think that they're going to be

00:34:05.820 that this situation is okay.

00:34:07.280 The same politicians who took our tax dollars, $24 billion worth of California's taxpayer

00:34:13.720 money, okay, squandered it by funneling it to these NGOs and nonprofits that are run

00:34:20.440 by their friends.

00:34:21.440 Oh, of course.

00:34:22.120 They fattened up their pockets.

00:34:24.180 They didn't do anything to actually help those people.

00:34:26.720 Nothing.

00:34:28.060 So when you say that at dinner, what's that like?

00:34:32.220 I mean, again, I don't have dinner with idiots, okay?

00:34:34.840 So I'm not going to have dinner with someone who's like, no, I think we should keep stealing

00:34:38.920 money from taxpayers in the highest tax state in the country.

00:34:43.380 I'm not interested in that.

00:34:44.620 But when I do have dinner with my friends or with acquaintances or even people that I just

00:34:51.380 met, but for whatever reason, our paths crossed and we're having dinner.

00:34:55.860 They all agree with me, you know?

00:34:59.040 Most people agree with me.

00:35:01.080 And I don't think what I'm saying is at all offensive, which is why I keep saying it.

00:35:04.740 I'm not going to stop saying it just because some idiots are going to try to smear me for

00:35:09.200 doing it.

00:35:10.020 No, I don't care.

00:35:11.000 Like, these issues go way beyond me.

00:35:15.380 You get what I'm saying?

00:35:16.520 Well, not only is it not offensive, it's pro-life in the truest sense.

00:35:20.520 It's pro-human dignity.

00:35:21.440 You don't want seven people to die in an intersection.

00:35:24.120 You're shocked and horrified and saddened by it.

00:35:26.840 That's not shameful.

00:35:28.860 That's evidence of decency and compassion.

00:35:31.880 I don't understand how that just got inverted.

00:35:35.000 You know, I don't want to go back to the days where we were criminalizing people who were

00:35:40.240 suffering from drug addiction.

00:35:41.580 Right.

00:35:42.380 But what we're doing now is, I think, far worse.

00:35:46.300 Oh, of course it is.

00:35:47.120 You know, because at least if someone was using publicly, which, by the way, right now happens

00:35:52.760 all the time, you see people.

00:35:55.680 It's really devastating.

00:35:57.080 Like, you see people smoking meth publicly.

00:35:59.200 You see people.

00:35:59.720 You do.

00:36:00.200 Oh, yeah.

00:36:00.940 Oh, yeah.

00:36:01.600 You see.

00:36:03.740 You know, do you know what the Fenty lean is?

00:36:06.040 Yeah, I've seen it.

00:36:06.840 Yeah, it's all over Ventura Boulevard at night.

00:36:09.820 And it's, I don't know, it's like-

00:36:11.020 Will you describe it for people who don't know what you're talking about?

00:36:13.480 It's basically fentanyl.

00:36:15.540 I guess it does something to your body where after you take it, like, if you see someone

00:36:20.160 who's literally standing, but they're like hunched over, like folded over.

00:36:23.660 Like a scarecrow.

00:36:24.720 Exactly.

00:36:25.860 They're on fentanyl.

00:36:27.620 That's what fentanyl does to their body.

00:36:28.920 And I never saw that once until recently.

00:36:33.480 And now it's just all over Ventura Boulevard in the San Fernando Valley at night, specifically.

00:36:39.460 You don't see it in the daytime.

00:36:40.940 And it's the most heartbreaking thing ever.

00:36:43.580 These people are, they're dying.

00:36:45.760 Very likely they're going to die.

00:36:46.880 That's someone's child.

00:36:48.000 Yeah.

00:36:48.420 Yeah.

00:36:48.720 And no one cares.

00:36:50.060 No one cares.

00:36:51.420 I can't tell you how many times people just kind of like, you'll see videos of this online.

00:36:57.860 People will have to walk over a guy who looks like he might be dead, sleeping on the sidewalk.

00:37:07.520 You know, like it's, it's made us almost numb because it's so, it's so much of our lives

00:37:15.660 now.

00:37:16.080 Like it's, it's a regular occurrence.

00:37:17.640 So when it's a regular occurrence, it becomes normalized.

00:37:20.440 And I-

00:37:21.060 It degrades everyone.

00:37:22.200 Exactly.

00:37:23.140 And I'm worried that since it's so normalized, nothing's going to be done about it.

00:37:27.960 And I just find it immoral and I find that it's wrong and I'm disgusted with our politicians.

00:37:35.660 I don't think I could have put it better.

00:37:37.680 I, every word you said, I agree with passionately and I don't know how this wound up a partisan

00:37:42.740 issue at all.

00:37:43.640 And I, it's a-

00:37:45.080 I think it's because it's a Trump era.

00:37:47.220 Yeah.

00:37:47.660 Trump offends the sensitivities and sensibilities of self-identified liberal Democrats so much

00:37:55.380 that they think they have to like automatically take the opposite stance of what a conservative

00:38:01.180 would say or what a Trump supporter would say.

00:38:03.780 But I, that's why I want people to start talking again and not make Donald Trump like the nucleus

00:38:11.720 of our politics.

00:38:13.580 Because I think that, you know, again, on a lot of the important issues, there's a lot

00:38:19.260 of agreement among voters.

00:38:20.480 They just have to allow themselves to think for themselves.

00:38:24.280 Well, I would say the most important issues.

00:38:25.920 I mean, if you've got seven people dying in one intersection in Los Angeles, you're not

00:38:30.780 going to tell me that Iran is a greater threat to my country than that.

00:38:34.420 Exactly.

00:38:34.680 I can't think of a greater threat to my country than that, actually.

00:38:38.060 And so, and I don't have any idea why that's partisan.

00:38:41.140 I, I'm interested in the governor.

00:38:43.320 I know the governor of the state.

00:38:46.920 He's got some, I know Gavin Newsom.

00:38:48.920 He's got some talent, I think, and charming for sure.

00:38:52.000 But like, what is going on?

00:38:54.640 Is he aware of that?

00:38:55.720 I've asked him and I-

00:38:57.060 You really find him charming?

00:38:59.560 Well, in a kind of reptilian way.

00:39:01.600 I mean, charming in the sense that his whole life is devoted to winning people over.

00:39:09.740 Yes.

00:39:10.300 Kind of like Bill Clinton was.

00:39:12.280 And I think he's good at it.

00:39:13.540 But I also think, someone said to me the other day, Newsom could pass a lie detector test

00:39:18.400 on any, saying anything.

00:39:20.320 Like, there's a coldness inside that allows-

00:39:22.360 He's a sociopath.

00:39:23.000 I think, I think he's a snake oil salesman.

00:39:25.580 I think he's a liar.

00:39:26.920 And I think that he destroyed the state of California, full stop.

00:39:31.820 I've got no love for Gavin Newsom.

00:39:34.740 I think that people tend to fall for appearances.

00:39:39.400 And he's, for whatever reason, people think that he's attractive or something.

00:39:43.920 I don't find him attractive because I know who he is and what he's done.

00:39:46.860 He has shafted Californians who have lost everything in wildfires.

00:39:52.620 The fire in Paradise, California was absolutely devastating.

00:39:56.040 An entire community burnt down as the result of PG&E, Pacific Gas and Electric, that's the

00:40:03.820 utility company, refusing to upgrade their aging equipment.

00:40:09.680 Their equipment is over 100 years old.

00:40:13.960 And so, what started that fire was this metal hook that had eroded to the point where it

00:40:20.020 broke.

00:40:21.040 Power lines come crashing down onto dry brush.

00:40:24.480 It sparks a fire and destroys an entire community.

00:40:28.600 Okay.

00:40:29.220 So, you would want PG&E to suffer some consequences for that, right?

00:40:32.640 I think.

00:40:32.940 Well, Newsom bailed him out because it's one of his biggest donors.

00:40:37.860 He recently, in an interview, I can't remember, he's been doing these like podcast interviews

00:40:41.800 to kind of rebrand himself as like some sort of common sense guy.

00:40:45.220 I've turned it down.

00:40:46.300 Yeah.

00:40:46.800 Don't fall for it.

00:40:47.680 I'm not.

00:40:47.920 Because it's total BS.

00:40:50.280 But, you know, he said something along the lines of, oh, you know, I take personal

00:40:54.300 accountability.

00:40:54.800 I made a big mistake by getting caught.

00:40:56.920 You know, I was at the French Laundry.

00:40:59.520 It's like some ritzy, fancy restaurant during COVID after I told Californians, you know,

00:41:06.100 don't get together with family members during the holidays.

00:41:08.720 It's very dangerous, whatever.

00:41:11.040 He said that he was having dinner with friends.

00:41:14.480 It was his friend's birthday.

00:41:15.740 No, no, no.

00:41:16.120 He was having dinner with his donors.

00:41:18.240 So, even in the context where he's pretending to take accountability, he's lying straight to

00:41:24.380 everyone's face.

00:41:25.280 And I can't stand it.

00:41:27.120 I really can't.

00:41:27.920 I want real authenticity.

00:41:30.220 I want real accountability.

00:41:31.400 I want politicians who are willing to see that the policies they advocated for aren't

00:41:36.800 working quite as they intended.

00:41:38.700 And they're willing to recalibrate, admit that maybe they got something wrong.

00:41:42.300 Of course.

00:41:42.820 I want humility.

00:41:44.000 I want this country to improve for the people in this country.

00:41:47.200 And unless we are willing to be honest, unless we're willing to tell the people trying

00:41:52.140 to smear us to silence us that they can F off, nothing's going to improve.

00:41:56.000 Everything's going to keep going down.

00:41:57.280 Everything is going to continue devolving.

00:41:59.260 In my lifetime, this country has only gotten worse, not better.

00:42:03.640 And it's going to keep going in that direction.

00:42:05.800 And I want that paradigm to shift.

00:42:09.060 I want it to change.

00:42:11.420 Why do people disagree with that?

00:42:13.780 Do you think?

00:42:14.660 I don't know.

00:42:16.340 I really, I think there's something psychological about it.

00:42:22.280 I think that we've been conditioned to think of politics as black and white, good and bad.

00:42:29.000 But I think it's more complicated than that.

00:42:30.780 I think most Americans are good people who want good things for everyone.

00:42:38.380 But I think the media kind of conditions us to hate the other side, whatever the other side really is.

00:42:44.740 You know, I certainly had those feelings.

00:42:48.100 And things are different today compared to when I became politicized during the Bush era.

00:42:53.600 I feel like during the Bush era, it was a little easier to see good and bad, right?

00:43:00.440 So, for instance, even among Republican voters, I think people had woken up to the fact that the neoconservatives had dragged us into wars that we shouldn't have been fighting.

00:43:11.040 That a lot of people, Americans and civilians in these countries we were invading were suffering as a result of this ideology.

00:43:18.940 But things have gotten a little more fractured.

00:43:22.520 I think within the parties, there's like multiple parties.

00:43:26.380 You get what I'm saying?

00:43:27.280 I do.

00:43:27.540 But when it comes to the two establishments, the Democratic establishment, the Republican establishment, there's a lot of similarities between the two.

00:43:34.260 They're in alignment.

00:43:35.220 Exactly.

00:43:35.800 On the big issues that matter.

00:43:37.720 War and the economy.

00:43:38.900 War and the economy.

00:43:39.740 The biggest issues.

00:43:40.640 100%.

00:43:41.000 They love to distract us with shiny things.

00:43:44.480 Yeah, have a race war.

00:43:45.500 It's totally fine.

00:43:46.020 100%.

00:43:46.280 Yeah, yeah.

00:43:46.720 All these social issues.

00:43:48.340 By the way, social issues are important.

00:43:49.580 I'm not minimizing them.

00:43:50.560 But the way that they're framed by the establishment, I think, is interesting.

00:43:55.960 Because it's intentionally meant to get us to fight each other constantly.

00:44:00.700 Of course.

00:44:01.400 Instead of considering what the big issues are and how we might actually agree on those big issues.

00:44:08.060 What we can do to work together to, again, apply pressure to politicians to demand that they represent us.

00:44:15.060 Instead of their donors.

00:44:16.480 Instead of moneyed interests.

00:44:17.640 Instead of a foreign government.

00:44:18.880 So, I think people are waking up for the first time.

00:44:22.840 I'm a little bit excited.

00:44:24.020 Because, you know, the kind of speech that you gave wouldn't have happened five years ago.

00:44:29.560 No.

00:44:29.860 Ten years ago.

00:44:30.520 No, I think that's right.

00:44:31.640 And I wouldn't have.

00:44:32.840 Though, I'm just struck by how normal and non-threatening and non-hateful and just basic most people's views are.

00:44:43.940 Including mine.

00:44:44.500 And I don't have any complicated views about anything.

00:44:46.720 I'm not a very deep person at all.

00:44:49.200 And I don't know why we've all internalized this shame that, like, some things must not be said.

00:44:55.580 And it's like, why?

00:44:56.740 I don't hate anybody.

00:44:59.120 In fact, I'm on guard against that.

00:45:00.820 I refuse to because of my religious beliefs.

00:45:03.660 It's like I'm not hating anybody.

00:45:05.200 Period.

00:45:05.460 But I'm also not going to be shamed into, like, ignoring obvious stuff.

00:45:10.420 None of us is paying very close attention during the summer.

00:45:12.780 The news cycle calms down.

00:45:14.380 Families travel.

00:45:15.260 People are relaxed.

00:45:16.220 You're at the beach.

00:45:17.080 It's all great.

00:45:18.140 Except the people in Washington never stop.

00:45:21.740 It gives them a chance to advance their agenda without you noticing because you're on vacation.

00:45:25.820 That means new regulations, more censorship, the continued erosion of the Bill of Rights, the values that built this country.

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00:46:20.200 Last year, we did an interview with a woman called Casey Means.

00:46:25.360 She's a surgeon educated at Stanford.

00:46:27.540 She's the nominee for Surgeon General right now.

00:46:31.000 She really is one of the most amazing people I have ever met.

00:46:34.240 The interview made me emotional.

00:46:35.780 In it, she explained how the food that we eat, produced by huge food companies in conjunction with pharma, is wrecking our health and wrecking this country, making it weak and sick.

00:46:44.060 She's the co-founder of a healthcare technology company called Levels, and we're proud to partner with them.

00:46:49.920 And by proud, I mean actually proud, for real.

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00:46:54.460 Even worse, we're not aware that we're not.

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00:47:39.400 You know what happens when you eat certain things.

00:47:42.140 We just got word that Levels is offering this show's listeners annual memberships with an additional two free months through the website.

00:47:48.320 The website is levels.link slash Tucker.

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00:47:54.840 You may have noticed this is a great country with bad food.

00:47:59.080 Our food supply is rotten.

00:48:01.300 It didn't used to be this way.

00:48:02.820 Take chips, for example.

00:48:04.560 You may recall a time when crushing a bag of chips didn't make you feel hungover, like you couldn't get out of bed the next day.

00:48:12.260 And the change, of course, is chemicals.

00:48:14.600 There's all kinds of crap they're putting in this food that should not be in your body.

00:48:18.880 Seed oils, for example.

00:48:20.700 Now even one serving of your standard American chip brand can make you feel bloated, fat, totally passive, and out of it.

00:48:30.860 But there is a better way.

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00:48:33.300 They're delicious.

00:48:34.480 Got a whole garage full of them.

00:48:36.240 They're healthy.

00:48:37.160 They taste great.

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00:48:51.420 Snacking on masa chips is not like eating the garbage that you buy at convenience stores.

00:48:56.220 You feel satisfied, light, energetic, not sluggish.

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00:49:23.620 Can I ask you something about real quick?

00:49:25.560 So I heard that speech, and by the time I finished listening to it, I thought to myself,

00:49:32.840 he's going to run for president.

00:49:36.560 That was a presidential speech.

00:49:38.240 Really?

00:49:38.420 Yeah.

00:49:39.780 No, that's literally the last thing on my mind.

00:49:42.260 Really?

00:49:42.580 Like, I would never do that.

00:49:44.420 No.

00:49:45.060 I mean, unless I was, like, told to buy a higher power or something.

00:49:48.740 But no, I don't think I'm suited for that.

00:49:51.340 I, of course, I don't want that.

00:49:53.060 But I have a lot of happiness and balance in my life.

00:49:56.320 I have a huge family.

00:49:57.940 I'm the oldest male in that family.

00:49:59.580 So I feel like I have a lot of things I'm paying attention to.

00:50:03.180 I have dogs who I really love.

00:50:04.840 So, no, like, nothing about that is appealing at all.

00:50:07.820 And I would never, I've never had any political ambition of any kind.

00:50:11.800 And I have even less now.

00:50:13.120 I mean, I've known a lot of people who've had that job.

00:50:16.140 And it's just, it's really hard.

00:50:19.420 Oh, I would never want it.

00:50:20.340 I would never want it.

00:50:21.260 Are you kidding me?

00:50:22.120 No.

00:50:22.240 And also the idea that, like, out of 350 million people, I'm the most qualified to lead.

00:50:27.140 Well, there's plenty of people who think that.

00:50:28.560 I don't think that.

00:50:29.540 Yeah.

00:50:30.080 And I mean, think that about themselves, obviously.

00:50:32.080 I do not think that.

00:50:33.240 Yeah.

00:50:33.480 Like, Ted Cruz thinks that.

00:50:34.480 Yeah.

00:50:34.720 Well, exactly.

00:50:35.320 Yeah.

00:50:35.540 And it's just sad.

00:50:36.580 And they're compensating for something.

00:50:38.260 Some of them, I guess.

00:50:39.340 I'm not only mean, but I don't, I'm not compensating for anything.

00:50:43.000 So I have no interest.

00:50:44.120 But, but here's my question.

00:50:45.360 So you said the media are a huge part of this, which is undoubtedly true.

00:50:50.560 I've been in the media for 35 years.

00:50:52.040 I know everyone in the media pretty much.

00:50:54.020 There are some, mostly they're not evil.

00:50:56.060 They're just kind of dumb.

00:50:57.200 Okay.

00:50:58.400 There are some evil people.

00:50:59.720 I could name them like Joe Scarbo or something, you know, it's like obviously

00:51:03.200 really bad, but most people are not, but they go along with this.

00:51:07.220 And the question is why?

00:51:08.380 And one of the reasons is because they don't want to alienate their audiences.

00:51:12.260 You've been, you are on one of the biggest, maybe the biggest, certainly one of the biggest

00:51:17.120 liberal podcasts, progressive podcasts, The Young Turks.

00:51:20.160 You've been there for almost 20 years.

00:51:21.420 I was amazed to find that out last night at dinner.

00:51:23.280 Yeah.

00:51:23.900 18 years.

00:51:24.840 18 years.

00:51:25.360 I don't know how old you are, but I was shocked by that.

00:51:28.040 But, and it's one of the biggest and you are one of the biggest.

00:51:30.780 And maybe our audience doesn't know this because they don't watch liberal podcasts, but you're

00:51:35.480 one of the biggest.

00:51:36.440 So you start saying stuff like this, you're going to like lose audience.

00:51:41.880 You're going to lose money, like actual money.

00:51:43.900 Yep.

00:51:44.640 Has that happened?

00:51:45.760 Do you worry about that happening?

00:51:47.260 Yeah, that's happened.

00:51:48.320 Um, let me just say that for whatever anyone might think about Cenk Uygur, who's the founder

00:51:54.200 and CEO of The Young Turks, you know, he's, he's a very, like he's, he's sometimes brash,

00:52:02.440 combative, loud, and that turns people off.

00:52:04.980 And I get that.

00:52:05.600 They might not agree with his politics, but I just want to talk about who he is as a person,

00:52:09.420 because if it weren't for Cenk, I wouldn't have the confidence to publicly admit I'm wrong

00:52:14.700 or the confidence to be genuine and honest about what I really think, because he provides

00:52:20.260 a platform for you to actually say what you think and not get punished for it.

00:52:24.660 If it hurts the business and it did hurt the business.

00:52:28.700 Um, yeah.

00:52:29.520 So we lost a portion of our audience for sure.

00:52:31.940 Um, based on what you said, based on what I said, and more importantly that alienated

00:52:37.120 people, I mean, okay.

00:52:39.260 I would say that the straw that broke the camel's back was I agreed to go talk to Glenn

00:52:47.380 Beck.

00:52:47.780 He invited me to go on his podcast.

00:52:50.160 You know, I obviously have disagreements with Glenn Beck, but I was actually shocked at how

00:52:54.480 much we agreed on, you know, we talked about war, we talked about all sorts of things and

00:52:59.260 there were areas of agreement.

00:53:01.120 It was a pleasant conversation, but I didn't capitulate my values at all.

00:53:05.720 Just because I'm talking to him doesn't mean I've done anything wrong.

00:53:08.680 My views are my views, his views are his views.

00:53:10.540 We had a conversation.

00:53:12.240 Well, I come home thinking nothing of it.

00:53:16.280 And, uh, one of our employees, uh, someone who's a contributor to TYT or was a contributor

00:53:21.540 to TYT decided to take that as an opportunity to make a big spectacle about the fact that

00:53:26.700 he's quitting because I decided to speak to Glenn Beck, who's like a threat to black bodies

00:53:34.660 or something.

00:53:35.200 I don't know, but he just, it was.

00:53:36.820 Is Glenn Beck a threat to black bodies?

00:53:38.220 I have no idea.

00:53:38.700 Is he, I mean, I didn't get that.

00:53:40.040 I don't think Glenn Beck's much of a threat to anyone, to be honest with you.

00:53:43.420 He might have some ideas people don't like, but okay.

00:53:47.580 Um.

00:53:48.160 But it was nothing that you specifically said.

00:53:50.080 It wasn't like.

00:53:50.840 No, nothing.

00:53:52.040 Nothing that I said.

00:53:52.900 I mean, no one was citing anything I said during that interview that upset them, that, that

00:53:57.280 was so offensive that it was worthy of like publicly condemning me and making a big spectacle

00:54:01.560 about how I can't work here because of Anna.

00:54:04.300 And she spoke to this dangerous, dangerous man.

00:54:07.540 Did Beck say anything like so over the top that you were supposed to respond to it or something?

00:54:12.340 No, I, no.

00:54:13.600 I mean, Glenn Beck.

00:54:15.460 He's a pretty moderate guy, actually.

00:54:17.420 I mean, I don't, I mean, he might have some views that aren't moderate, but we didn't talk

00:54:21.680 about any of those things.

00:54:22.560 Like the conversation was really not offensive at all, in my opinion.

00:54:28.060 And.

00:54:28.340 But they didn't cite anything.

00:54:29.840 He didn't like endorse Hitler or anything.

00:54:31.760 It was just the fact that I spoke to him.

00:54:33.420 But, you know.

00:54:33.800 Wow.

00:54:34.640 Unfortunately, you know, when you have someone make a public spectacle about quitting and

00:54:39.780 making it seem as though I had done something so wrong, it signaled to a portion of our

00:54:45.560 audience like, oh, maybe Anna isn't who she says she is.

00:54:50.300 Maybe Anna is like a secret, like far right winger or Nazi or I don't know.

00:54:55.460 How long had you been at the show at this point?

00:54:57.700 Um, 17 and a half years.

00:54:59.920 It wasn't too long ago.

00:55:00.420 So that's deep cover.

00:55:01.200 So you've been a secret Nazi for 17 and a half years.

00:55:03.560 Yeah, I'm really good at what I do.

00:55:04.440 You're playing the long game, baby.

00:55:06.080 Yeah, yeah.

00:55:07.520 But, um.

00:55:08.660 I'm sorry to laugh.

00:55:09.280 Let me just say, let me just say this.

00:55:10.820 I started working, as you mentioned, I've been there for 18 years.

00:55:13.840 Started working there in 2007.

00:55:16.360 Okay.

00:55:17.960 When TYT was basically a startup that no one knew about, the revenue for TYT at the time

00:55:24.600 came from Air America.

00:55:25.520 Air America had gone bankrupt a few months after I started working for them.

00:55:30.360 And Cenk Uygur is amazing because he's, he's like, I'm going to make it work.

00:55:34.520 I'm going to find a way to keep this company afloat.

00:55:36.880 And he did, to his credit.

00:55:38.840 But I can't even explain to you how much of a grind it was building TYT.

00:55:46.160 It was a grind, long hours, like blood, sweat, and tears, but we believed in it and we loved

00:55:51.640 it.

00:55:51.960 And I actually have like great memories of those years.

00:55:54.600 We barely made any money at all, but we believed in what we were doing.

00:55:58.620 And there was something really exciting about that.

00:56:00.640 I went through all that.

00:56:03.260 I helped build what TYT is today.

00:56:07.160 And the audacity, the audacity of anyone coming in as a contributor or anything else to tell

00:56:16.400 me who I can and can't talk to is, that's offensive.

00:56:20.160 That's offensive.

00:56:21.840 Okay.

00:56:22.280 I earned this.

00:56:23.980 You're not going to come into my house and tell me what my beliefs should be, who I should

00:56:28.580 talk to.

00:56:29.920 F off.

00:56:30.920 Good, good, good riddance.

00:56:32.120 Go, go.

00:56:34.220 I'm not going to be censored by anyone.

00:56:37.100 Not my audience.

00:56:38.420 No one on the right.

00:56:39.280 I don't care.

00:56:40.340 I don't care.

00:56:41.140 So sometimes when people sell products on TV, I love this product.

00:56:44.980 I use this product.

00:56:45.920 There's the question in the mind of the viewer, does this guy really use the product?

00:56:50.200 Does he really love the product?

00:56:51.620 Would he keep the product at home?

00:56:52.820 That's my dogs.

00:56:54.380 Yes.

00:56:55.060 Now we are in a garage.

00:56:57.300 I'm not going to tell you where it is because again, this is prepping, but this is my garage.

00:57:02.960 There's a gun safe.

00:57:04.060 And this is a part of my stockpile of Ready Hour.

00:57:07.580 Completely real.

00:57:08.900 The second I put it here, the second Ready Hour sent it to me, I felt peace of mind because

00:57:14.700 no matter what happens, we're not going hungry in my house.

00:57:17.680 I moved a lot of fishing gear out of the way to keep it in my garage.

00:57:21.160 And ever since it's been here, I have felt the peace of mind that comes from knowing my

00:57:25.740 family's not going hungry no matter what.

00:57:28.940 Lastcountrysupply.com.

00:57:30.700 Lastcountrysupply.com.

00:57:31.560 It can be in your garage along with the peace of mind that comes with having it.

00:57:34.660 I have a nephew who loves you and he's always, Uncle Tucker, you've got to interview this

00:57:38.640 chick.

00:57:38.880 She's amazing.

00:57:39.840 And I'm so glad.

00:57:41.480 Sorry.

00:57:41.820 Excuse me.

00:57:42.480 I just, it just makes me laugh.

00:57:45.080 I mean, I just, I love what you're saying, of course.

00:57:47.560 But you also are making a point about the guy you work with who started the company, owns

00:57:51.800 the company, who even after some of your audience bolted over this, he didn't call you in and

00:57:59.560 say, knock it off?

00:58:01.320 No, never, never.

00:58:03.080 That's not who Cenk is.

00:58:04.540 And by the way, I mean, he's had hosts on our network who he vehemently disagrees with.

00:58:09.600 And he's had other hosts come in and like demand that those hosts get fired because of what

00:58:15.740 they're saying.

00:58:16.280 Oh, it's offensive.

00:58:17.080 And Cenk's like, no, we don't do that here.

00:58:19.720 And I think what informs Cenk's behavior, honestly, is the fact that at one time he was a self-identified

00:58:29.380 Republican.

00:58:29.860 This is when he was in college and stuff.

00:58:31.620 Yes.

00:58:32.540 And he and I have like a lot of these heart to hearts because I have these days when I

00:58:36.740 am down about everything that's transpired, because I do feel like it's unfair to paint

00:58:41.240 me in a certain light just because you don't like the people I'm talking to.

00:58:45.440 But whenever I need like a little bit of a pep talk, he'll mention what it was like as

00:58:53.260 a college Republican.

00:58:54.740 And he's like, Anna, it was unbearable because they wouldn't let me talk in class like they

00:58:59.500 would do everything possible to prevent me from being able to speak.

00:59:03.640 Who's they?

00:59:04.360 Like other students or professors who didn't like his point of view.

00:59:07.920 OK, liberals.

00:59:08.760 Liberals.

00:59:09.140 Yeah.

00:59:09.560 So and that really, really frustrated him.

00:59:13.700 And so now as the CEO of the Young Turks, he's not going to turn around and censor other

00:59:19.080 hosts because he disagrees with them.

00:59:21.440 A lot of people do, though.

00:59:22.520 A lot of people do.

00:59:23.480 But to his credit, he doesn't.

00:59:25.600 And that's why I've been there for 18 years.

00:59:27.520 There have been other opportunities to make a...

00:59:29.260 I love when people call me a grifter.

00:59:30.800 I could have been a millionaire by now.

00:59:32.360 So I'm not a millionaire because I want to speak my mind.

00:59:35.740 And TYT has been the only place that's allowed me to do it.

00:59:39.460 Good for you.

00:59:40.460 Yeah.

00:59:41.160 I don't think...

00:59:42.320 I mean, most people don't host shows, so they don't know the feeling.

00:59:45.060 I have hosted shows, so I do know the feeling.

00:59:47.240 If your audience starts to move out from under you, boy, that is...

00:59:51.080 Because that's your strength.

00:59:52.420 That's your core.

00:59:52.880 That's your revenue, of course.

00:59:53.980 But more than that, that's your moral backing.

00:59:58.380 Like, you know, they may not like what I'm saying, but my people do.

01:00:01.440 My audience does.

01:00:03.600 And so if they bolt in meaningful numbers, boy, there's nothing scarier.

01:00:07.960 I mean, I get it.

01:00:08.660 Yeah, it is scary.

01:00:09.680 I'm not going to lie about that.

01:00:11.200 I mean, being scared didn't deter me.

01:00:13.960 But I was more concerned about what it was going to do to the company overall, because

01:00:20.860 if things were bad enough and we didn't have enough revenue to keep every employee, people

01:00:27.640 are going to get fired or laid off.

01:00:29.200 And I wouldn't...

01:00:30.700 I would really struggle with the guilt.

01:00:33.020 I would feel responsible for that.

01:00:34.800 And so I'm glad that that didn't happen.

01:00:37.080 And we're currently...

01:00:38.420 We're rebuilding.

01:00:39.440 And it's a dream come true for me because I want to build an audience of open-minded

01:00:43.940 people who aren't going to, like, run for the hills the second they hear a point that

01:00:50.900 they disagree with.

01:00:51.940 Or that they haven't heard before.

01:00:53.120 Or that they haven't heard before.

01:00:54.140 Exactly.

01:00:54.700 Yeah.

01:00:55.120 Because there's...

01:00:55.580 I think there's a lot of that where if, you know, if you get past the initial shock,

01:01:00.740 like, you'll say some people like, well, first of all, you're not allowed to say that.

01:01:03.220 Second, I've never heard anybody say that.

01:01:05.440 And I kind of hate you for saying something new.

01:01:08.900 But I do think that wears off after a moment.

01:01:10.980 And people are like, well, actually, is that crazy?

01:01:12.580 Is that hateful?

01:01:13.220 Well, I don't think it is.

01:01:14.820 And you can kind of convince them after that.

01:01:17.220 You have a decision to make.

01:01:18.940 You can either build a niche audience.

01:01:21.840 And I think that's the worst option because a niche audience wants to be catered to.

01:01:27.580 And you have to be very careful to follow a very specific script.

01:01:30.760 I'm not interested in that.

01:01:31.820 And I think that I personally went through an era of being a little bit radicalized on the left.

01:01:40.020 And I regret that because I unwittingly did build a bit of a niche audience.

01:01:47.360 But those folks...

01:01:47.740 What do you mean radicalized?

01:01:49.120 I totally bought the narrative that, like, everyone on the right is racist.

01:01:56.820 Everyone on the right is greedy.

01:01:58.500 That kind of stuff.

01:01:59.180 So Trump term won.

01:02:01.340 When everyone just got hysterical about Trump.

01:02:03.660 Yes.

01:02:04.080 Yeah, I get it.

01:02:04.720 That was the era that I'm not proud of.

01:02:06.540 And I was basically building my own prison.

01:02:10.340 And I didn't realize it.

01:02:11.600 And what I mean by that is, once you have a niche audience, you're not allowed to

01:02:15.540 deviate from a very specific and narrow ideology.

01:02:20.540 And I don't want that.

01:02:22.140 I'm not an ideologue.

01:02:23.580 I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong.

01:02:26.040 I'm willing to recalibrate on policy if I see it implemented and it's not working correctly.

01:02:32.280 I ultimately just want truth.

01:02:34.800 I want justice and I want a country that represents its people.

01:02:38.460 That's what I want.

01:02:39.080 That's my core.

01:02:40.340 Do you feel like it is bridgeable?

01:02:45.600 Like, there's so much anger.

01:02:48.920 Like, and by the way, I do think the immigration thing and the crime thing sort of obscure it.

01:02:53.900 Like, the real fight is between educated whites.

01:02:57.340 Like, they're the ones who really hate each other.

01:02:59.380 Really?

01:02:59.940 I think that.

01:03:00.700 Tell me more about that.

01:03:01.560 Well, I think it's...

01:03:04.800 I mean, I just know from my own experience, I often say this, but, you know, they called me a racist for many, many years.

01:03:09.400 And I would always say, if I was racist, I would just admit it because, like, there are worse things.

01:03:14.120 But I'm not.

01:03:15.620 And I would get so hassled always by the same demographic.

01:03:21.360 And I would always say to my wife, you know, no black person's ever yelled at me.

01:03:26.740 In fact, I've been hugged by a lot of black people.

01:03:29.120 It's just a fact.

01:03:29.780 I'm sorry.

01:03:30.140 It's just true.

01:03:31.200 And they don't seem to think I'm a racist, but it's always middle-aged white women who were yelling at me at Logan Airport.

01:03:37.900 And, like, what is that?

01:03:40.120 No, I'm not whining.

01:03:41.620 I mean, I don't really care.

01:03:42.740 But it's just interesting.

01:03:44.520 And so I think it's almost, like, fratricidal.

01:03:48.320 It's, like, professional class whites who read The New Yorker, read The New York Times.

01:03:53.500 Like, they're truly angry at each other.

01:03:59.560 Yeah.

01:04:00.380 Yeah.

01:04:00.620 I don't know.

01:04:00.940 I've just noticed this.

01:04:01.980 Yeah, I mean, it's, I think it's just, it's propaganda and this thought that certain things are way worse than they really are or that, like, their perceived threats, I think, aren't real to the extent that they think it's real.

01:04:20.660 And by speaking out and by confronting you and by, you know, doing what you're referring to, I think they get a sense of I'm doing something about it, you know?

01:04:29.940 No, I get it.

01:04:30.520 No, I'm not even attacking them.

01:04:31.820 It's just interesting to me the, I mean, because it's clear, it's totally real in their minds.

01:04:37.460 It is, of course.

01:04:38.060 It's not just performative.

01:04:39.100 It's, like, I felt rage before.

01:04:42.180 So, and as you so eloquently described, like, that rage obscures, and I think maybe it's designed to obscure the reality of, like, physical degradation all around us.

01:04:54.800 All around us.

01:04:55.600 Yes.

01:04:55.940 Yeah.

01:04:56.320 And I think that is kind of the point.

01:04:58.340 I think it is, to some extent, intentional.

01:05:00.220 But since you do live in that world and have for so long, as rationally as you can, clinically as you can, can you explain what they're worried about?

01:05:10.320 Well, I mean, I think, I think that their heart is in the right place.

01:05:16.920 Yeah, yeah.

01:05:17.280 I'm not, I'm giving them the presumption of good faith, for sure.

01:05:19.720 Yeah.

01:05:19.780 I just want to know, like, when some rich lady yells at me in the ski lift line, she thinks I'm racist.

01:05:27.900 I know they always say that.

01:05:28.880 Yeah.

01:05:29.000 But then there's also, like, there's a fascist takeover imminent.

01:05:31.660 Is that part of it?

01:05:32.760 Or what is the worry?

01:05:33.760 Well, I mean, okay, let's talk about the fascist takeover, because there is a part of me that's a little bit worried about that, to be honest.

01:05:39.720 I am, too.

01:05:40.300 Okay, so.

01:05:40.800 Not just part of me.

01:05:41.860 Yeah.

01:05:42.020 A lot of me.

01:05:42.660 And look, I don't know what's in those women's heads.

01:05:44.760 So, I just don't, I don't understand them.

01:05:48.780 So, I feel weird talking about what they're thinking and what motivates them.

01:05:52.300 Every person should be worried about the centralization of power and the use of technology to strip basic rights from citizens.

01:05:59.760 Yeah.

01:06:00.300 Everybody.

01:06:01.140 Like, the Palantir stuff concerns me a little bit.

01:06:03.820 You know?

01:06:04.080 Anytime.

01:06:04.980 Yeah.

01:06:05.340 I mean, the technology, not just Palantir, but all the emerging technology, supercomputing, all of this stuff.

01:06:11.940 Yep.

01:06:12.260 Facial recognition.

01:06:13.280 Like, it could be used to enslave the population.

01:06:16.660 Totally.

01:06:17.160 Really easily.

01:06:18.060 Totally.

01:06:18.520 Yeah.

01:06:18.980 So, I don't know why.

01:06:19.800 I mean, everyone should be freaked out about that.

01:06:21.780 I'm worried about that, definitely.

01:06:23.620 I'm also a little bit worried about, and I don't know how large this group of people in America happens to be, but you're hearing from them more and more.

01:06:33.700 This idea that, no, we need to move toward a post-liberal and, like, post-liberal democracy.

01:06:46.120 You know what I'm saying?

01:06:46.740 Like, a rejection of the democratic process overall.

01:06:50.000 Like, Curtis Yarvin is one of the figures who's been kind of preaching about this.

01:06:54.620 He sounds really dumb, so I don't know how seriously people really take him.

01:06:58.360 But he purports to want a monarchy in this country, which sounds insane.

01:07:03.000 It, I, look, I'm opposed to monarchy.

01:07:06.480 And, um, the truth, however, is that the trends you're describing have totally discredited liberal democracy.

01:07:14.120 That's my fear.

01:07:14.980 Mm-hmm.

01:07:15.200 And I think maybe it's intentional.

01:07:17.080 Oh, for sure it's intentional.

01:07:18.320 Make things so chaotic that we beg for a dictator.

01:07:20.680 I kind of feel like that's happening.

01:07:22.000 I hope people aren't begging for a dictator because you don't like the fact that the government isn't really representing your interests right now.

01:07:27.480 Get a load of what it's going to be like to live under a dictator where you have no say at all.

01:07:31.140 Right, no, no.

01:07:31.560 I'm talking more about, like, quality of life questions.

01:07:34.020 Like, if there are home invasions going on and the homeowner doesn't have any expectation the cops are going to save him, that kind of stuff, that's not theoretical.

01:07:42.760 That's, like, that induces panic.

01:07:44.740 True, yeah.

01:07:45.620 It makes me uncomfortable even thinking about it.

01:07:47.840 Mm-hmm.

01:07:48.120 You know, so if you have a lot more of that, people will be like, I don't really give a shit about voting.

01:07:54.800 What I care about is my kids not being killed.

01:07:57.060 Yeah, actually, you make a really good point, which is why it's so important for Americans who value liberal democracy to really start thinking seriously about saving it.

01:08:08.880 Exactly.

01:08:09.460 Yeah, yeah, that's what I want.

01:08:11.280 But don't you feel like when people are under, like, if you were on a plane flying across the Pacific that dropped 20,000 feet in a minute, and you're saying your prayers, maybe you're an atheist, you're saying prayers anyway, couldn't control yourself, and what would you be willing to do or give up in exchange for not dying?

01:08:31.640 In other words, if you're totally panicked, you're in free fall in a commercial airliner, God, I will do anything.

01:08:37.180 Like, that's kind of what is happening with crime, I think.

01:08:42.760 Yeah, yeah, and not just crime.

01:08:45.000 Not just crime.

01:08:45.560 Yeah, I mean, so many issues.

01:08:47.060 It is a problem when most Americans agree on something, and our politicians know it, but they do the opposite anyway.

01:08:56.340 And I've been increasingly angry with the fact that, you know, I feel that the interests of Americans and how they feel about going to war with Iran, for instance, right?

01:09:10.280 Most Americans do not want to go to war with Iran, and it didn't matter, okay?

01:09:14.160 The United States bombed Iran's nuclear sites on behalf of Israel anyway, which could have led to a full-blown hot war.

01:09:22.100 It didn't because of Iran having restraint, but we're not done yet.

01:09:27.140 But don't you feel ashamed that it didn't lead to nuclear war?

01:09:31.900 This is the new line.

01:09:33.760 I know.

01:09:34.000 You are wrong.

01:09:35.100 You're an idiot.

01:09:36.000 By the way, that line is stupid.

01:09:37.620 How dare you worry about that?

01:09:38.820 Yeah, by the way, it's not over yet.

01:09:40.560 And don't get too cocky.

01:09:42.560 For the people making that point, don't get too cocky.

01:09:44.820 But why is it shameful to worry about a nuclear war or worry about World War III?

01:09:49.480 Why is that?

01:09:50.260 It's being held up by the normal tiny brain people as, like, you know, evidence that you're just a ridiculous person.

01:09:56.740 Your prediction was wrong.

01:09:58.460 Right, right.

01:09:59.320 We didn't have a nuclear war.

01:10:00.860 Shut up.

01:10:01.620 Well, maybe those folks have a point.

01:10:03.260 Maybe we're the baddies, okay?

01:10:06.080 Maybe we should be more concerned about profits for, you know, bomb makers and weapons manufacturers and private contractors and the mercenaries that are currently working over in Gaza to shoot and kill people as they're waiting for humanitarian aid.

01:10:21.960 So, how does that, it does feel like, I've spent 35 years not talking about that topic because, one, I don't really have, on a native level, like, super strong views about it.

01:10:32.760 It's not my country.

01:10:33.480 I wish everyone well in every country.

01:10:35.320 And I mean that.

01:10:36.140 However, it just got so in my face that I had to, like, say four things about it for which I've been, you know, spent the rest of my life trying to deal with the effects of being called those names.

01:10:46.060 But I feel like all of a sudden, like, people you would not expect to weigh in on this, like, actually, this is too much.

01:10:54.160 Yeah, and I love it.

01:10:55.280 I'm glad that that's happening.

01:10:56.480 Do you feel that there's been a change?

01:10:58.260 I do feel it.

01:10:59.100 I mean, definitely.

01:11:00.740 If it were the Bush years and this whole scenario were playing out during those years, the kinds of things I've been hearing people say publicly, I would not have heard.

01:11:12.500 But I think what's happening this time around is you really can't deny what you're seeing on the ground in Gaza.

01:11:21.420 You can't deny what's happening in the West Bank, you know, not just in regard to Palestinians, Palestinian Muslims, but also Palestinian Christians.

01:11:29.760 You can't deny the fact that that one and only Catholic church in Gaza was bombed, you know, was attacked.

01:11:35.960 You can't deny the fact that churches have been targeted in the West Bank as well.

01:11:39.400 Like, it's, people can lie to us as much as they want, but the videos are out there.

01:11:44.540 How do you blow up a church?

01:11:45.900 If you've got munitions, laser-guided munitions, that are so sophisticated that they can take out, you know, a guy in an SUV from 30,000 feet, how do you blow up a church with a giant cross on top of it?

01:11:59.720 It was just an accident, Tucker.

01:12:01.420 It was an accident.

01:12:02.680 It's not the first church.

01:12:03.980 No, it's not.

01:12:04.840 And it wasn't an accident.

01:12:06.100 It wasn't an accident.

01:12:06.620 But how, what is the answer?

01:12:08.100 Can anyone get an answer?

01:12:08.980 I know the answer.

01:12:10.140 Israel wants a Jewish state, and they want to expand.

01:12:12.620 They have something known as the Greater Israel Project.

01:12:14.800 They intend to annex the whole of the West Bank.

01:12:17.320 In fact, Miriam Adelson legally bribed Donald Trump to ensure that that happens.

01:12:22.900 And Israel announced that that's what they're going to do, and they're doing it.

01:12:26.320 When it comes to Gaza, I mean, Hamas is so dumb because the atrocities they committed on October 7th

01:12:33.980 gave Netanyahu and the Israeli government the perfect excuse to essentially do what they've

01:12:39.260 always wanted to do, which is take that land.

01:12:40.860 They're going to take that land.

01:12:41.700 That's what they want.

01:12:42.540 They're going to ethnically cleanse whatever remains of the Palestinian people.

01:12:46.320 They're going to force neighboring countries probably to absorb 2 million people.

01:12:49.760 And then at the same time, they're going to have settlers move on in, rebuild Gaza.

01:12:54.620 Syria, Jared Kushner, by the way, soon after October 7th happened, was like salivating on

01:13:01.480 camera about how that's prime real estate.

01:13:04.240 It's disgusting.

01:13:06.160 But anyway, how can you move 2 million people right now?

01:13:10.340 Well, there was a story published this week.

01:13:12.580 I believe it was in the New York Times where Netanyahu and the Israeli government was in talks

01:13:19.740 with our government in regard to getting aid from the United States in moving Palestinians out of Gaza.

01:13:27.100 So when they bomb the church, it's because they don't want the church.

01:13:30.600 That land is supposed to be part of the Jewish state.

01:13:32.500 You're not allowed to use my tax dollars to bomb churches.

01:13:35.040 Well, that's what they're doing.

01:13:35.720 I'll put up with a lot of stuff, but I think that's, and I don't, I've said this 100 times,

01:13:40.400 let me say it again.

01:13:41.160 I don't understand how any Christian leader in the United States can sit by and not say something about that.

01:13:46.940 And Mike Huckabee, who has been a pretty slavish, you know, devotee of the state of Israel,

01:13:54.060 and I don't mean that as a compliment, he's a very nice man, but I disagree with him strongly.

01:13:58.280 Even Mike Huckabee came out and said, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

01:14:01.660 Yeah.

01:14:01.880 You can't kill Christians.

01:14:03.400 And American citizens.

01:14:04.480 And American citizens.

01:14:05.420 But I don't understand why that's not, I mean, if that's not a red line, then there's no red line.

01:14:10.380 I mean, I think it's, it should definitely be a red line.

01:14:13.560 But let me just say, Mike Huckabee made a statement, and that's nice.

01:14:18.740 It's more than Biden was willing to do.

01:14:22.420 Talk is cheap.

01:14:24.140 Are you going to cut funding?

01:14:25.880 Are you going to stop sending over the 2,000 pound bombs that are destroying people's homes,

01:14:32.120 universities, churches, refugee camps, hospitals?

01:14:37.580 I mean, Gaza's leveled.

01:14:39.780 Dira al-Bala is like the last remaining portion of Gaza that still has some structures that people can live in.

01:14:46.000 And they're currently doing a ground invasion there.

01:14:48.520 They got to destroy it, of course.

01:14:50.300 I mean, it's so obvious what's happening.

01:14:52.440 And it's so unjust.

01:14:53.880 And this is the area where, what democracy?

01:14:58.060 I have no power.

01:14:59.220 The government's going to take part of my earnings that I worked really hard for, not to help my fellow American citizens,

01:15:05.820 who might need health care, who might have fallen on hard times and can't feed their families and need help with food assistance.

01:15:12.900 It's not going to go to them.

01:15:14.180 It's going to go toward the bombs that are terrorizing people in Gaza, the West Bank.

01:15:19.160 By the way, it's going to expand further than that.

01:15:21.080 I mean, they've already annexed part of Syria.

01:15:23.840 The Syria war, that proxy war, it was a proxy war for a reason.

01:15:31.160 Turkey wanted to have influence and control over the area where the Kurds are at.

01:15:36.780 Obviously, Israel wanted to annex portions of it, and they've been doing it ever since Assad fell.

01:15:43.480 And you have a former al-Qaeda leader as the current leader of Syria, who's trying to capitulate to Israel.

01:15:49.740 But obviously, it's not good enough because Israel's still bombing the crap out of Syria.

01:15:53.240 It's unbelievable.

01:15:54.720 I have no ability to change it.

01:15:57.020 It seems like the electorate in this country have no ability to change it because it doesn't matter which party you vote for,

01:16:03.000 whether it's a Democratic presidential candidate or a Republican presidential candidate.

01:16:07.880 They're going to get elected, and they're going to get dog-walked by whoever the prime minister of Israel is at the time.

01:16:13.620 How do we wind up supporting an al-Qaeda leader?

01:16:15.600 I thought we were anti-al-Qaeda.

01:16:17.580 I thought so, too.

01:16:18.260 So, I don't know.

01:16:20.420 It makes no sense to me.

01:16:21.980 But, I mean, this is seen throughout American history in regard to our foreign policy.

01:16:28.320 I mean, we will fund the Taliban.

01:16:31.280 We'll give them weapons to fight the communists.

01:16:33.780 We want to avoid communism.

01:16:35.940 And then we turn on them for obvious reasons after what happened on 9-11.

01:16:41.120 But, I mean, I think it's not—

01:16:44.840 But we were told 9-11 was done by al-Qaeda, so we've got to be pretty—I mean, that wasn't that long ago.

01:16:50.600 We've got to be pretty anti-al-Qaeda because, like, if they actually killed 3,000 Americans on 9-11,

01:16:55.920 which everyone says they did, and I'm willing to believe that, then how in the world can we let any al-Qaeda even exist?

01:17:04.920 Wouldn't you venture to say it's required to ask these questions if you want to be a journalist?

01:17:10.980 I would say, and I would also say, you know, the Syria situation, I was always opposed to what we were doing in Syria.

01:17:19.440 I understood exactly why we were doing it.

01:17:21.400 We ended up killing or abetting in the murder of an awful lot of religious minorities, Alawites, a lot of Christians, and destroying the country.

01:17:30.200 And, you know, I was attacked for—you know, you're an Assad apologist or whatever, but I don't know anything about Assad.

01:17:38.140 So, are they al-Qaeda apologists?

01:17:39.800 Well, that's the thing, and we've gotten to a place now where it's really clear that the 3,000 American lives they say were lost on September 11th due to al-Qaeda are less important than whatever political or geopolitical consideration is driving our Syria policy.

01:17:56.800 Yeah, and it makes me sick.

01:17:58.240 So, that's, like, about—that's treason, of course, but it's more than that.

01:18:03.420 That's, like, a profound moral crime, and it's also a middle finger in the face of every American.

01:18:07.280 Definitely, yeah.

01:18:08.180 If there's one thing we could expect our foreign policy would stay consistent on is we're anti-al-Qaeda because they killed 3,000 Americans.

01:18:14.320 Yeah, but I just—I don't—I don't—well, I do understand our foreign policy and what drives our foreign policy.

01:18:22.300 And it's a black pill for sure.

01:18:25.920 So, I'm not just asking this because you have an Armenian last name, which you do.

01:18:30.740 I do.

01:18:31.500 But—and I think you're Armenian.

01:18:33.740 That's why you have an Armenian last name.

01:18:35.080 But because you did a segment on this.

01:18:37.720 Mm-hmm.

01:18:37.940 What is going on between Armenia, big, big picture, and Azerbaijan?

01:18:43.400 Well, there was—about four years ago, there was a pretty brutal war.

01:18:48.140 Azerbaijan attacked the Armenians who were living in this area known as Nagorno-Karabakh.

01:18:55.580 Armenians call it Artsakh.

01:18:56.820 And historically, Armenians have had roots there.

01:19:01.320 There are ancient churches, Armenian churches there.

01:19:04.720 And that land—if you look at a map of where Nagorno-Karabakh is, it's, like, in the middle of Azerbaijan.

01:19:14.100 Not exactly in the middle, but it's basically—like, let's say, here's Azerbaijan, like, circle.

01:19:18.900 And it's, like, kind of off to one side, Nagorno-Karabakh is.

01:19:24.000 And the reason—that land was—well, the whole of Azerbaijan was controlled by the Soviets, right?

01:19:32.620 But during that time, Stalin essentially gave the land that makes up Nagorno-Karabakh to Azerbaijan, like, promised that land to them.

01:19:45.780 Even though that area was populated by ethnic Armenians.

01:19:49.760 And he did that—I mean, Stalin was evil in a lot of ways, but he was also very smart, which is the most dangerous combination.

01:19:56.260 Very smart.

01:19:56.820 Yeah.

01:19:57.240 And so he wanted both the Azeris and the Armenians to be dependent on the Soviet Union.

01:20:03.680 And the way to do that is to put the ethnic Armenians smack dab in the middle of, you know, Azerbaijan.

01:20:09.840 And so it became an issue because, you know, throughout history, Armenians went to war with the Azeris in regard to controlling that land.

01:20:19.900 Because most of the people there were Armenian, they wanted to control that land.

01:20:23.240 And so what happened four years ago in 2020 is Azerbaijan's like, we want the Armenians out, we want to take over the land.

01:20:29.860 And they went to war.

01:20:31.440 Armenia's a tiny country.

01:20:32.600 Russia has provided security guarantees to Armenia in the past.

01:20:38.120 But unfortunately, in this case, Russia didn't come to the defense of ethnic Armenians.

01:20:42.980 They said that the, you know, security guarantees had to do with Armenia and not Nagorno-Karabakh.

01:20:50.840 So a lot of Armenians died.

01:20:53.680 A lot of churches, ancient churches were absolutely destroyed and bombed.

01:20:58.700 And the Azeris engaged in the ethnic cleansing of ethnic Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh.

01:21:05.380 They were forced out if they weren't killed.

01:21:07.480 And some of them ended up in Armenia.

01:21:09.940 And Armenia, of course, is going to take them in.

01:21:12.760 But it's been really difficult because Armenia is a tiny country.

01:21:16.040 It's a, you know, developing country.

01:21:18.480 It's landlocked and it's surrounded by enemies.

01:21:21.360 And historically has been victimized by Turkey through the Armenian genocide.

01:21:26.540 I mean, it's been pretty devastating.

01:21:28.960 And it's, you know, I've been very vocal about what's been happening in Gaza.

01:21:34.040 And Armenians have been very proud of me for that.

01:21:36.760 But a few have been like, why didn't you speak up about Nagorno-Karabakh?

01:21:39.900 I did.

01:21:40.500 I did actually at the time.

01:21:41.760 But it happened four years ago.

01:21:43.040 Why aren't the preachers talking about it?

01:21:44.600 I don't, so churches were blown up?

01:21:46.960 Yeah.

01:21:47.220 And by the way, I mean, preacher, like religious leaders have been.

01:21:51.380 But American media doesn't care about it.

01:21:53.260 I mean, America doesn't care about Armenia at all.

01:21:55.740 Oh, I get it.

01:21:56.520 It's a small country.

01:21:57.660 But I just, you know, the Armenians were persecuted precisely because they were Christians.

01:22:05.260 That's my read.

01:22:06.040 I mean, there's no, you know.

01:22:07.060 Yeah, they were the minority, the religious minority.

01:22:09.260 Of course, the religious minority at the very end of the Ottoman Empire, end of the First World War.

01:22:14.620 And they were murdered in enormous numbers by the Ottomans using the Kurds, I think, for a lot of it.

01:22:22.520 And the Kurds, we love the Kurds.

01:22:24.800 But I don't understand why, I just see this theme, you may disagree with this, but I see a global theme where the most peaceful religion in the world is taking the most abuse and there's the most murder of Christians.

01:22:37.460 I don't quite know what that is.

01:22:38.900 And I just am amazed that nobody says anything in the United States.

01:22:42.860 Yeah, it's, I mean, Armenians don't have a powerful lobby that can bribe our politicians to care about them.

01:22:51.280 So what's really depressing, though, is, you know, we provide a lot of the weapons that Israel has.

01:22:59.700 And Israel sold weapons to Azerbaijan to carry out the ethnic cleansing of ethnic Armenians from Nagorno-Karabakh.

01:23:04.920 What?

01:23:05.360 Yep.

01:23:06.320 Is that confirmed?

01:23:07.780 Yes, it's confirmed.

01:23:09.520 It's absolutely confirmed.

01:23:10.980 Israel sold weapons to Azerbaijan to kill the Christians.

01:23:15.420 Yeah, that's exactly what happened.

01:23:19.140 You're sure?

01:23:20.180 Yeah, anyone can look it up.

01:23:22.400 And look, if I'm ever wrong, I will admit it.

01:23:24.840 But this is something I've researched deeply.

01:23:27.300 Where did Azerbaijan get its weapons from?

01:23:29.140 There have been rumors that they also were sold weapons from Russia, but there was less confirmation on that.

01:23:36.260 But in regard to Israel, it's very clear and it's documented.

01:23:39.240 I sense a theme.

01:23:44.440 And I have a right to sense that theme because I'm a Christian and I'm not going to cede that right.

01:23:49.220 Sorry.

01:23:50.160 So the Armenians were murdered by the millions at the end of the First World War.

01:23:55.940 But they weren't all killed.

01:23:57.080 Where did they go?

01:23:57.800 So, thank you for asking me these questions.

01:24:01.700 I really appreciate it because there's a lot that I want to say about it.

01:24:05.000 So the Armenian genocide was perpetrated by an offshoot of an organization of like, it's a group that basically rebelled against the Ottoman Empire.

01:24:17.680 The Ottoman Empire had already been persecuting Armenians.

01:24:21.600 There was the Adana massacres.

01:24:23.300 I mean, massacres had been happening at the hands of the Ottoman Turks.

01:24:26.720 Now, a group rose up to rebel against the Ottoman Empire and those individuals were known as the Young Turks.

01:24:35.480 We are not named after those people.

01:24:38.400 Young Turks in American context means something entirely different.

01:24:41.220 It means someone who rebels against societal expectations or the establishment.

01:24:45.100 And that's what we do at our show.

01:24:47.680 So that's why Cenk named it that.

01:24:49.400 I kind of wish he didn't because it gets confused all the time.

01:24:51.960 But nonetheless...

01:24:52.720 It's kind of funny that there's a Turk and an Armenian hosting the show.

01:24:56.240 And by the way, we talk about the Armenian genocide on the show all the time.

01:25:00.540 I, you know, he's Turkish and he grew up in a certain context where you only get one side of the story.

01:25:07.120 Of course.

01:25:07.420 Yeah, we all have grown up in a certain...

01:25:08.960 Exactly.

01:25:09.300 But to his credit, I mean, through our very difficult conversations at times, through our debates,

01:25:15.100 he eventually realized, oh my God, like I was totally brainwashed.

01:25:19.240 The Armenian genocide is totally real.

01:25:20.940 And we talk about it all the time on the show.

01:25:22.300 And that's like probably one of my proudest accomplishments because I could have turned my back on him,

01:25:30.300 made him out to just be a terrible person who's unworthy of me even like talking to him.

01:25:35.180 But instead, I made a decision to try to convince him, to persuade him.

01:25:40.560 And it took a while, but it worked.

01:25:42.320 And to me, seeing the humanity in someone who has like a fundamental disagreement that enrages me,

01:25:51.840 I think that probably out of all the qualities that make me human, I think that's my best quality.

01:26:00.380 My willingness to try to persuade before I write someone off is unworthy.

01:26:04.100 That's a very good quote.

01:26:05.900 Yeah. But anyway, sorry.

01:26:07.080 So the Young Turks rose up to...

01:26:10.060 And the whole thing about the Young Turks was they didn't like the way Armenians were being persecuted.

01:26:14.460 They wanted to provide rights to Armenians.

01:26:16.760 And you can look this up.

01:26:18.000 It's in the history, right?

01:26:19.660 But there was an offshoot of the Young Turks called the Committee of Unity and Progress.

01:26:24.620 And they're the ones who perpetrated the Armenian genocide.

01:26:27.060 Okay. So that's how it happened.

01:26:30.400 1.5 million Armenians were slaughtered.

01:26:33.420 There were a lot more Armenians who were forced to march through the desert to Syria.

01:26:39.800 My father was actually born in Damascus.

01:26:43.040 Your father?

01:26:43.840 My father, yeah.

01:26:44.660 He was born in Damascus.

01:26:45.680 When he was two years old, though, the family wanted to move back to the homeland.

01:26:49.360 My grandfather really cared about that.

01:26:51.560 So they moved to Armenia, but it was difficult because at that point, when the diaspora was moving back,

01:26:57.760 the Armenians who never left, there were cultural differences.

01:27:00.540 Because think about it.

01:27:01.200 I mean, if you're going to an Arab country, you take on some of their cultural practices and stuff.

01:27:07.500 And then when you go back to Armenia, there's a little bit of a disconnect.

01:27:10.820 Always.

01:27:11.840 The prodigal son effect.

01:27:13.320 Yeah.

01:27:13.860 So there was a lot of Armenians who went to Syria, Lebanon.

01:27:18.360 There's a huge Armenian community in Lebanon.

01:27:20.020 Iran.

01:27:20.300 In fact, there's a huge Armenian community in Iran till this day.

01:27:25.200 Christian Armenians who are openly practicing their Christianity and going to church.

01:27:30.480 In Iran?

01:27:31.080 In Iran.

01:27:31.860 Yeah.

01:27:32.700 Yep.

01:27:33.480 Yes.

01:27:34.060 I have family members.

01:27:35.700 And the way that Iran...

01:27:37.280 Why aren't they all genocided by Iran?

01:27:39.200 I thought...

01:27:39.480 Yeah, you would think that would happen, right?

01:27:41.020 But no, there are Armenians in...

01:27:43.160 They might not like the Ayatollah.

01:27:44.980 They might not like the regime.

01:27:46.660 But what they respect is the fact that they're still able to practice their religion.

01:27:50.560 They're still able to go to church.

01:27:52.120 For the most part, they're left alone.

01:27:54.920 And...

01:27:55.320 There's a huge Armenian population in Iran, I think.

01:27:57.980 Yeah.

01:27:58.360 That's the Armenian diaspora.

01:27:59.800 And they were originally refugees from the genocide?

01:28:02.020 Yes.

01:28:02.620 Yeah.

01:28:02.840 I love Iranian Armenians.

01:28:05.860 They're, like, among my favorite.

01:28:07.640 They're just...

01:28:08.600 I don't know.

01:28:09.320 I just think that they're actually a lot more open-minded, believe it or not.

01:28:14.740 The diaspora that I come from is far more conservative and a little closed-minded, you know?

01:28:23.580 So...

01:28:24.180 But anyway, I just...

01:28:26.880 Armenians have been through a lot.

01:28:28.040 They really have.

01:28:28.700 And they're all over the world because of the fact they were forced out of their own country.

01:28:32.960 They've done so well.

01:28:34.600 Yeah.

01:28:34.900 They're hardworking people.

01:28:36.100 They're good people.

01:28:36.940 Very family-oriented.

01:28:38.680 I'm very proud of my heritage.

01:28:40.880 But I'm also very proud to be an American.

01:28:43.340 And that's the other thing about Armenians.

01:28:45.380 They really love this country.

01:28:47.280 They really do.

01:28:48.140 And they feel privileged to be here.

01:28:51.080 You know, if they immigrated here, they feel privileged.

01:28:53.300 My parents came here as refugees.

01:28:56.580 My dad in the late 1970s.

01:28:58.520 My mom in the early 1980s.

01:29:01.800 And...

01:29:02.000 From where?

01:29:02.540 So, from Armenia.

01:29:03.820 Both of them from Armenia.

01:29:04.960 Soviet-controlled at the time.

01:29:06.360 Yes.

01:29:07.000 So, at the time, there was an effort, obviously, to continue containing communism, but to help

01:29:13.140 refugees who wanted to flee communism.

01:29:16.600 You know, when it comes to immigration, I think it's tricky, right?

01:29:21.960 Because I do think that a lot of people come to this country and they contribute to it.

01:29:28.200 Without question.

01:29:29.020 Yeah, definitely.

01:29:29.840 And I think about the Armenian community and Glendale is like the nicest part of LA at this point, if you ask me.

01:29:35.420 And it's because it's part of LA County, but it's not part of LA City.

01:29:38.300 It's mostly populated by Armenians and Cubans, by the way.

01:29:41.700 And it's beautiful.

01:29:43.300 Glendale, California is gorgeous.

01:29:45.520 You know, they care.

01:29:46.960 They care about their community.

01:29:48.320 They care about their families.

01:29:49.440 They want to work hard.

01:29:50.580 You're always going to have bad apples.

01:29:52.740 And recently, there was like a crime ring, an Armenian crime ring that was caught and taken down.

01:29:58.240 And I'm glad they got deported.

01:30:00.200 Fantastic.

01:30:01.380 But most of them, they really, really care.

01:30:05.040 An Armenian crime ring?

01:30:06.600 Yeah.

01:30:07.580 Was there a Mormon crime ring, too?

01:30:09.860 I don't know.

01:30:10.420 Maybe.

01:30:10.500 I've never heard of an Armenian crime ring.

01:30:12.160 In LA.

01:30:12.620 I mean, look, I don't want it to paint a picture of Armenians overall because there's a huge Armenian population

01:30:17.300 and they're very successful and hardworking and they're good people.

01:30:20.820 Oh, I know they are.

01:30:21.520 All right.

01:30:22.260 But, you know, you're always going to have bad apples.

01:30:24.540 It happens.

01:30:25.380 And I have no problem with them being brought to justice.

01:30:29.180 And that's what went down.

01:30:31.220 I think the feds actually investigated it.

01:30:33.920 And it was a multi-year investigation.

01:30:36.760 And they were defrauding, you know, Medicare.

01:30:39.900 Like all sorts of financial crimes were taking place.

01:30:44.040 Thank you for that.

01:30:45.080 Yeah.

01:30:45.280 That's really, and the fact that Iran has a huge Christian population, I just think it's amazing.

01:30:51.520 Yeah.

01:30:52.000 And not explained.

01:30:52.780 No one ever talks about that because it goes against the grain.

01:30:55.800 It goes against the narrative of Iran.

01:30:57.600 And again, that's not to say that the Iranian regime is fantastic and I support it.

01:31:03.140 I don't.

01:31:03.620 And by the way, it's not my place to determine who governs or who rules Iran.

01:31:09.160 It's up to the Iranian people to make that decision.

01:31:11.160 You don't think it's up to you?

01:31:11.820 Hell no.

01:31:12.280 I live in America.

01:31:13.060 I'm an American.

01:31:13.760 Who am I to tell any country who their leader should be?

01:31:16.500 Who is our government?

01:31:17.680 Like, we should not be meddling in those matters in any sovereign country.

01:31:24.800 It's up to the people of that country to either rise up and demand something different or to reform the system.

01:31:32.140 Whatever they want to do.

01:31:33.120 I'm not interested in regime change.

01:31:34.940 It's not my place at all.

01:31:38.320 I am the choir and you are preaching.

01:31:43.060 So what happens to the media where you spent your entire life?

01:31:46.760 Like, what does it look like in five years?

01:31:48.180 I mean, I think cable news is in a lot of trouble because whether people want to believe it or not, I think most Americans are actually pretty smart and privy to the fact that they're not really getting the whole story when they watch traditional media, when they read legacy media.

01:32:08.580 And so there's a lot more competition now online and you have long-form, like this, we're having a long-form conversation where there's space to actually explore the complexities of various issues.

01:32:24.900 And people love that.

01:32:26.620 People want to be mentally stimulated.

01:32:28.700 I agree.

01:32:28.960 I'm never stimulated when I'm watching cable news.

01:32:31.540 You know, maybe there are some examples, like sometimes there's like a debate segment where I'm like, okay, that was a good segment.

01:32:36.940 I like that.

01:32:37.600 I hate the uniformity of ideology that you get on cable news oftentimes.

01:32:43.960 That bothers me.

01:32:45.040 I really, I will say this.

01:32:46.760 I like Abby Phillips' show on CNN because that whole show is about bringing all sorts of people together from different perspectives to hash it out.

01:32:55.080 And it remains, for the most part, pretty civil, but we're disagreeing and we're explaining why we disagree.

01:33:00.760 And I like that.

01:33:01.440 And she's had me on, even though I think most people in cable news probably see me as a controversial figure to some extent.

01:33:08.280 But they have all sorts of people on and I love that.

01:33:10.560 I just noticed I was saddened to see that the one conservative guy, the professional conservative on CNN, who I think seems clever.

01:33:18.420 I'm not against him personally.

01:33:19.380 I don't know him.

01:33:19.960 But the second, you know, we learn that, oh, we're going to be bombing Iran now, he's all in.

01:33:27.220 Yeah.

01:33:27.820 He's all in.

01:33:28.720 So I feel like he, I forget his name.

01:33:30.900 What was his name?

01:33:32.620 He's on like often.

01:33:34.200 I know who you're talking about.

01:33:34.960 But the thing that kind of offends me at this point is when partisan hackery takes place.

01:33:42.820 You know what I'm saying?

01:33:43.760 Like that.

01:33:44.160 Do I know what you're saying?

01:33:45.040 Yeah.

01:33:45.200 Yeah.

01:33:46.060 Yeah.

01:33:46.460 Well, yeah, I've heard about it.

01:33:47.580 Yeah.

01:33:47.680 It really annoys, it annoys the crap out of me.

01:33:50.240 I'll give you an example.

01:33:50.840 I've participated in it.

01:33:51.940 Yeah.

01:33:52.640 And that's the thing.

01:33:53.740 Like, I give you credit because you have on multiple occasions admitted that like the

01:34:00.080 neoconservative ideology that you had taken on was wrong.

01:34:03.740 I don't think most people.

01:34:04.960 I think it's evil.

01:34:05.880 Yeah.

01:34:06.060 That's what I think.

01:34:06.500 I don't think most people who are against you on the left know how often you condemn

01:34:11.620 yourself on your own podcast about that.

01:34:13.740 So I just wanted to kind of draw attention to it.

01:34:15.660 Well, I just think it's important not to pretend you're something that you're not.

01:34:18.600 Yeah.

01:34:18.800 And just be honest.

01:34:20.820 And, you know, I didn't kill anybody.

01:34:24.680 I did cheer on the deaths of others, though, I will say.

01:34:27.080 But whatever, we all make mistakes.

01:34:29.080 But I think it's just important to be honest at all times.

01:34:33.060 And I think that, you know, to the extent you can.

01:34:35.080 Exactly.

01:34:35.440 Yeah.

01:34:35.700 But just going back to the partisan hackery, I was recently on, you know, Abby Phillips's

01:34:41.820 show and we were talking about the Epstein files and whether or not, you know, they should

01:34:46.520 be released.

01:34:47.460 I'm in favor of releasing them.

01:34:48.980 I think the American people deserve to know.

01:34:51.980 But there was a conservative guy on the panel who immediately jumped to, well, why did

01:34:58.040 the Democrats do it?

01:34:59.320 And it's like, OK, sure.

01:35:00.780 Why didn't the I don't I don't care.

01:35:02.720 I don't care about the partisan stuff.

01:35:04.320 OK, Democrats didn't run.

01:35:05.680 I'm not defending them.

01:35:07.740 I would have liked for them to be the ones who ran on it and actually did it.

01:35:11.160 But they didn't.

01:35:12.980 The one who ran on it.

01:35:14.400 Well, Trump didn't necessarily run on it, but he did.

01:35:17.640 His voters want it.

01:35:18.820 His voters want it.

01:35:20.360 Members of his administration kept like using the Epstein files as like bait to like entice

01:35:25.800 the base and then also at the same time, while Trump might not have ran on it, he did use

01:35:31.620 the Epstein files to attack Democrats like Bill Clinton.

01:35:35.060 Right.

01:35:35.520 So you're drawing attention to that and you're making the release of the Epstein files a lot

01:35:39.380 more desirable to your base to then turn around and engage in this like weird what I believe

01:35:45.540 to be a cover up.

01:35:46.560 Not a good look, not a good look at all.

01:35:49.620 So when we're having this discussion about what's happening at this very moment and the

01:35:55.300 Republican guy immediately goes to Democrats bad, it's like, OK, I know the Democrats are

01:36:01.200 bad.

01:36:01.800 Can we just let's talk about this moment right now where promises were made, but promises

01:36:06.180 are not kept when it comes to this specific or the story itself.

01:36:09.160 I mean, one of the problems, the partisanship is it obscures the actual issue that I'd like

01:36:14.460 to know more about.

01:36:15.540 And so the Epstein thing, from my perspective, has been long known, almost 20 years.

01:36:21.180 The guy was a pervert and was involved in a like apparently a really significant sex ring

01:36:28.060 with some underage girls in it.

01:36:29.920 So the whole thing is gross.

01:36:30.940 We knew that.

01:36:32.180 But what is it like big picture?

01:36:34.900 Like what is that?

01:36:35.740 Where did the money come from?

01:36:37.080 No one can answer that question.

01:36:39.200 Yeah.

01:36:39.440 How did he make his money?

01:36:40.400 How was he so wealthy?

01:36:41.520 Nobody knows.

01:36:42.280 Yeah.

01:36:42.580 Why did Les Wexner give him so much money?

01:36:46.040 And Leon Black, like what is that?

01:36:47.400 What's going on?

01:36:48.000 Yeah, I know.

01:36:48.620 So what do you think the answer is?

01:36:50.160 I think he was an intelligence asset.

01:36:52.160 That's my suspicion.

01:36:55.320 Period.

01:36:56.260 Doing what?

01:36:58.000 Blackmailing people?

01:36:58.520 Yeah, I think it was a blackmail operation.

01:37:00.100 Why were there cameras in the rooms where girls were being raped?

01:37:03.340 What did he do with that footage?

01:37:04.800 What was the point of that footage?

01:37:05.760 I have no cameras in any bedroom in my house.

01:37:07.640 Neither do I.

01:37:08.740 Normal people don't.

01:37:10.300 Right.

01:37:12.600 You know, he had relationships with people that were in intelligence.

01:37:19.660 I mean, obviously, Robert Maxwell, Ghislaine Maxwell's father,

01:37:23.960 was a hardcore Zionist and worked for Mossad.

01:37:28.300 I mean, this is well documented.

01:37:30.060 Yeah, I don't think anyone's used to.

01:37:31.320 And he introduced Ghislaine to Jeffrey Epstein.

01:37:35.420 The fact that Jeffrey Epstein was a college dropout, but Bill Barr's father, who worked for the OSS, hired him to be a math teacher at the Dalton School,

01:37:49.060 which is a prestigious school, which is a prestigious school that would only hire prestigious teachers.

01:37:55.420 Jeffrey Epstein wasn't that.

01:37:56.880 He wasn't a prestigious teacher.

01:37:58.240 He dropped out of college.

01:37:59.880 I don't know.

01:38:00.420 There's just a lot of smoke and it's led to distrust in our institutions.

01:38:06.260 It's led to a lot of suspicions.

01:38:08.060 And I would like to know, and I think this is very important, whether we live in a sovereign country where our politicians are actually representing us,

01:38:16.500 or if we're living in a situation where a foreign country might have blackmail on our politicians or people in positions of power.

01:38:25.020 And as a result, that blackmail is being used to force these politicians to pursue policies that are not beneficial to the American people, but beneficial to a foreign country.

01:38:35.540 Do you really want to know, or will you admit that it's immoral of you to want to know, and that maybe you just can't handle the truth, and maybe you're a hater for wanting to know?

01:38:44.120 I want more than just me knowing.

01:38:46.040 I want every single American to know.

01:38:50.760 That's what I want.

01:38:52.300 Yeah.

01:38:52.700 Last question.

01:38:55.940 Do you sincerely think that anybody on either side of the aisle, which doesn't even exist, but whatever, left, right, wherever, could watch what you've said for the last almost two hours and come away angry?

01:39:10.740 I mean, if you're Zionist, probably.

01:39:14.160 You didn't even say anything against Zionism.

01:39:16.040 I didn't.

01:39:16.320 I mean, I didn't, but it doesn't matter.

01:39:18.240 I mean, you're, look, if the Jeffrey Epstein suspicions are ever confirmed, that looks really, really bad.

01:39:27.420 And you'd want to prevent, you would want that information to never come out.

01:39:32.200 So even talking about it, I feel really offends people for obvious reasons.

01:39:37.940 And so, I don't know.

01:39:38.940 We'll see.

01:39:39.620 But this is the message that I want people who might feel angry to take away from me.

01:39:44.920 Um, I don't give a fuck.

01:39:50.620 That's it.

01:39:51.860 I can't improve on that.

01:39:53.460 Hannah, thank you so much.

01:39:54.600 Thank you.

01:39:54.980 We want to thank you for watching us on Spotify, a company that we use every day.

01:40:03.340 We know the people who run it, good people.

01:40:05.540 While you're here, do us a favor, hit follow and tap the bell so you never miss an episode.

01:40:11.300 We have real conversations, news, things that actually matter.

01:40:14.480 Telling the truth always.

01:40:15.660 You will not miss it if you follow us on Spotify and hit the bell.

01:40:19.440 We appreciate it.

01:40:20.020 Thanks for watching.

01:40:20.540 Bye.

01:40:49.960 Bye.

01:40:50.000 Bye.

01:40:50.480 Bye.

The Tucker Carlson Show - July 25, 2025

Ana Kasparian： Epstein Cover-Up, Israel Strikes Gaza Church, & the Great American Political Shift

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Misogynist Sentences

Hate Speech Sentences

Summary

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