Author Kris Newby explains how the first Lyme Disease infections happened just a few miles from an animal-testing lab in Connecticut. Could the spread of the disease be related to a lab leak？
Summary
Chris Newby is the author of Bitten: The Secret History of Biological Weapons and Lyme Disease, and she joins us to talk about Lyme disease, the fast-growing bacterial-borne infection that has infected over 200,000 people across the U.S. and is the fastest-growing infectious disease in the country. It s a political disease and an economic disease, as much as it is a bacterial disease. It is a national health crisis that is completely and totally being ignored, squashed, and squashed. What is going on with Lyme? And why is it so difficult to diagnose and treat? And how can we stop it from becoming a bigger problem than it already is? Tucker and his guest Chris Newby discuss the mystery of Lyme disease and what we can do to find out what s causing it, and how we can stop it. Tucker and Dr. Chris discuss their personal experiences with Lyme, and what they have learned about the disease, and why they think it s a real problem and why we should all be worried about it. Here's our latest episode of the Tucker Carlson Podcast: We do not lie. We promise to bring you honest interviews and commentary without fear without fear. Here's the latest episode from Tucker Carlson on the topic of Lyme Disease. Subscribe to our newest episode of "Tucker Carlson on Tucker Carlson: Who We Do Not Lie" on the TuckerCarlson Podcast! Subscribe on iTunes Learn more about your ad choices. Become a supporter of the show: bit.ly/support-tuckercarlsonnyc.co/tuckerclarke.co Learn about our sponsorships and get 10% off your first month only discount when you shop at Tuckercarlson.com/TuckerCarlson_and get 20% off for the rest of the month for 7 months for 6 months and get $10 off your ad discount, too get $25 or more when you buy a VIP membership when you become a VIP discount offer starts starting at $29 or more than $50 or more get discount code: tucker@tuckercox.ee/tuckerscrane_crane@ee&rewsales and they get $5/month for 7 days of TUNTERRYCARRY_and they get my ad discount starts starts starts starting on 7 days only?? Thank you for listening to the show? Thanks for listening and review my ad?
Transcript
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Welcome to the Tucker Carlson podcast. It's pretty obvious at this point that the corporate
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media are dying quickly, but why? Because they lie. That's right. They lie and they died as a
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result. But at tuckercarlson.com, we do not lie. We promise to bring you honest interviews and
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commentary without fear. Here's our latest episode. If you live in certain parts of this
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country, rural areas particularly, you know people who have or who have had Lyme disease.
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And for some of them, maybe most, it's not a huge deal. You go in and you get a big dose of
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antibiotics, you have some symptoms, and then it seems to go away. But for some percentage,
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and you may know these people too, it's totally life-destroying. It's years in bed. It's agony.
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It's really the end of your productive life. So what is that exactly? What is Lyme disease?
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Well, there's still an active debate about that very basic question. Some have dismissed it as a
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psychological symptom, actually. But even people who acknowledge that it's a physical syndrome
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aren't always very clear, and they're certainly not in agreement with one another about what it is or
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where it came from. So back in 2008, a woman called Chris Newby produced a documentary about Lyme.
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At that point, it was becoming a very serious global illness, and its origins were mysterious,
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unknown. People whispered about it, but no one could be certain. That documentary was called
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Some infectious disease doctors, they don't believe in Lyme. And they said that I was faking it and
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Lyme is the fastest growing infectious disease in the country. 200,000 new cases here, maybe even more.
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It is a political disease and an economic disease as much as it is a bacterial-borne infection.
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I would never, never have thought that something like a bacteriological infection can become so
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politicized that the truth can be so brutally distorted.
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I go into despair daily. I cry daily. I want to die daily.
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Well, when I saw this doctor, you know, he said, you've got a long road ahead of you. It's not going
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to be easy. So that scared me. The unknown is pretty scary.
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It is a national health crisis that is completely and totally being ignored and squashed.
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Well, you could write it off, and again, some have as a figment of your imagination,
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but there are real neurological symptoms. And if you know anyone who's had it, you know that it's
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entirely real. So again, what is this? Well, Chris Newby has spent a lot of time thinking and
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researching on this topic, has been affected personally by Lyme, is the author of Bitten,
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The Secret History of Biological Weapons and Lyme Disease. And she joins us now. Chris Newby,
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thanks so much for coming on. So can you just give us a-
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Oh, absolutely. A quick and succinct overview of what Lyme is.
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So Lyme disease is caused by a spirochetal bacteria, and you get it through a tick bite.
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And if you treat it immediately with doxycycline or amoxicillin, it will go away. The problem is,
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it's very often misdiagnosed or diagnosed late. And that's where the controversy comes in for the
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disease. It can linger for months to years, and then it's really hard to get rid of. And
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into complicated, a tick can transmit up to like 20 different disease-causing microbes. And so if you
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have like two or three or four of those in one tick bite, it creates a confusing set of symptoms that
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So doctors can isolate, however, the organism that causes Lyme specifically. I mean, there's no
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mystery about where that comes from. Is that correct?
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Well, there are antibody tests for Lyme disease. It's really, really hard to culture the, you know,
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The problem is the tests are not very reliable. The Lyme disease antibody tests
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don't usually work in the first month. It takes a while for your body to develop antibodies to the
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level that they can be measured. And then later on, the tests aren't that great. It's no better than
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a coin flip because it just depends on what strain you have and what you're, if you're really sick,
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you won't produce antibodies. Interesting. So the problem with tick-borne diseases is there are a
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lot more ticks than there have been in our lifetimes anyway. Parts of the Northeast have
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seen an explosion in tick populations to the point where large mammals are being decimated,
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sucked dry of blood and dying because they have too many ticks on them. So that's not anyone's
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imagination. That's measurable. So if you have a disease that's spread by ticks and there are a whole
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lot more ticks, you're going to get a whole lot more cases of the disease. Is this measured, measurable?
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Yes. And I would say just the cases of Lyme disease are going up, which is proving that ticks
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are biting people. The CDC estimates they're half a million cases a year. That's on average 1,300 people
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a day. So that's significant. Now, why they're spreading so quickly, I go into that in the book a
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little bit. I mean, there certainly is global, with climate change, which means winters aren't as
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severe and a lot of the ticks don't die off. That's true in Maine. And then part of it is people are
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moving into the woods and are exposed more to the ticks. Yes, all true in Maine and other northern
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states. But it does raise the question, like, how did this... I mean, if you're 75 years old,
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you did not grow up with Lyme disease. If you're 15 years old, you're worried about Lyme disease.
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That's a pretty short period. Where do we think this came from? Well, the thing I found in my research
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for my book is Lyme disease wasn't a noticeable problem until the mid-70s. And what my research said
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is that there are actually three really virulent tick-borne diseases that showed up right around
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Lyme, Connecticut, at the mouth of the Connecticut River, which is right across from Plum Island,
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which was the U.S.'s anti-animal crop headquarters for the biological weapons program. So late 60s,
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the peak of the biological weapons program in the U.S., these three freaky diseases showed up. So that was
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Lyme arthritis caused by the spirochete. There was a rickettsia, which is Rocky Man of Spotted Fever. And
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then there was a cattle parasite. It was the second time it was found in man in that area called Babesia.
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And that's actually, I got Lyme and Babesia, which can be fatal, and it's a serious disease.
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So all three, so you have a cluster, effectively, of these three previously rare diseases right across
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the water from the U.S. government's biological weapons testing facility. Is that what you're saying?
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Yeah. And it's, if you're like working for the CDC and on the lookout for natural versus unnatural
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disease outbreaks, having three new tick-borne diseases show up, extra deadly disease causing
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than in the past, it would raise, it would raise, it would get their attention and there would be
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investigations, which is what happened. That sounds like a crazed conspiracy theory to me,
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just because you have previously rare diseases show up all at once across from a biological weapons
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facility doesn't mean, so, okay, so the CDC investigated this. What did they find?
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Well, it, a housewife in Lyme, Connecticut, Polly Murray, was the first one to start documenting,
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and she started pounding on the doors of local health departments and the CDC. And it really took
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her seven years before the CDC responded, and a doctor named Alan Steer showed up and started,
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from Yale, he's a CDC EIS officer, and started investigating it. And he, they, he figured out it was
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tick-borne, but he couldn't figure out the causative agent. And at that point, the U.S.'s number one
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tick researcher, Willie Bergdorfer, a Swiss-American tick guy who was in NIH's Rocky Mountain Laboratory,
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came out to investigate. And that's where he found, I mean, the public-facing story is,
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he found the spirochete, it causes this bullseye rash, he said, that's what's causing all the disease,
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and the panic should stop, just take two weeks of doxycycling, and the problem will go away. But
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it didn't. And that's where my book took off. I started looking at the backstory, and wondering
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what really happened. And people associated with that disease weren't acting in the normal way.
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Normally, when you discover a dangerous new disease, you say, oh, this is horrible. Give us money,
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we'll research it. But instead, it just became more and more secretive.
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So is it your belief that Willie Bergdorfer, who I think is gone now, but knew the truth about what
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happened? And what do you think is the truth? Well, I worked on the Lyme disease documentary
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with fresh eyes because I didn't know anything about the disease until my husband and I got it.
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And the thing that was unusual is the symptoms set on the CDC website and in the medical textbooks
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was totally different than what we had experienced. So then I teamed up with the director, Andy
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Wilson, and we spent three and a half years researching the disease. And what we found out
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is it was just an enormous epidemic. So many people are suffering. And the treatment recommended
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by public health, which was two weeks of doxycycline, wasn't curing it. But these patients who went on to
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get the same symptoms over and over again were not given any more antibiotics. And then we wanted to
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understand what was going on with the disease. So Andy and I called all the CDC people, the NIH people.
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They wouldn't talk to us. Like one of the original discoverers even hung up on me. I said, I just want
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someone to go on camera and talk about how this disease, how this organism causes a disease. But to
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have a professor, you know, who discovered the disease hang up on me, it was just unusual. There was
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paranoia amongst the specialists. So what we did was we went out to see Willie Bergdorfer, who was
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retired, the guy who discovered Lyme disease, at his home. And while we were setting up the cameras,
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someone from the lab knocked on the door and says, I need to sit in on this interview. There's things
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Willie can't talk about. And the director was outraged and kicked him out. But during that
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interview, Willie intimated that there was more to Lyme disease than the public health was letting on,
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the disease is not just a rash, highly neurological, especially damaging for children. And two weeks
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of doxycycline doesn't work. And they know it can go on to be chronic. So it was our first hard proof
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that something wasn't as it seemed on the surface with Lyme disease. And so we got the film out. And one
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thing, one of the aspects that we covered in the film is just conflicts of interest in medicine,
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because right around the time Lyme disease was discovered, researchers at universities, the CDC,
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the NIH, could share in the profits of a new test or vaccine for a disease. So there was a lot of,
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like a CDC employee could match their salary and royalties for a vaccine or a test kit.
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So it corrupted the incentives in medicine, not to share information about a new disease, but
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instead to save it as intellectual property so it can be monetized. So, so anyways, we got the film
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out. There were rumors swirling around about Plum Island and it being, Lyme disease being a biological
00:15:08.000
weapon, but we had enough to cover with the patient story and the conflict story. And then I was done
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with it and I got a great job writing science for Stanford Medical School in the science department.
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And I was going to walk away and get along with my life. But then two things happened within the space
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of a month. And I, I said, I can't let this story go. I just have to know what is really going on with
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this disease. And one was, I met a CDC, I mean, a CIA black ops guy who said in 1962, the weirdest
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thing he'd ever done in his whole crazy apocalypse now career was dropping poison ticks on Cuban sugar
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cane workers. That was Operation Mongoose. So that was the first evidence that we had dropped ticks on
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a foreign country as a bioweapon. And then the other thing is one of my filmmaker friends went out to
00:16:06.460
Willy Bergdorfer and in a very long interview, he, at the very end, he said, yeah, when I investigated the Lyme
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disease sickness in the late 70s, early 80s, there was another organism there. It wasn't just Lyme that was
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making people sick. It was, um, I, and I was told to cover it up. It was probably a Rickettsia. He
00:16:30.780
didn't let, release all the information, but what he said was confirmed by copies of his lab books
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and, um, and, uh, subsequent interviews that I had with him.
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And, and, and pardon my ignorance, what is the disease you described the other one? Rickettsia?
00:16:50.500
Yeah. So, so it's a Rickettsia. It is, uh, the same organism that causes Rocky Mountain spotted fever,
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and that's the most deadly tick-borne disease in the United States. It also was a germ that was being
00:17:07.000
weaponized by the, um, the U.S. military at the time. And, and they tried to stuff it in ticks. I mean,
00:17:16.360
so what is tick weaponization? So in the interviews with Willie, what he said was,
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I spent over a decade in the biological weapons program, a contractor to Fort Dietrich, um, working
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on, uh, weaponizing fleas, ticks, and mosquitoes, trying to mass produce them, stuffing fleas with the
00:17:37.280
plague, uh, stuffing mosquitoes with deadly Trinidad virus, Trinidad virus, and then stuffing ticks with
00:17:49.080
either deadly or incapacitating, hascipating diseases like relapsing fever, Venezuelan
00:17:56.220
equine encephalitis, rabies, uh, leptospirosis, which is another spirochete. So it's just like
00:18:05.100
Dr. Strangelove, uh, trying to make new diseases, mixing bacteria and virus in ticks with the intent
00:18:15.400
of, this is the perfect stealth weapon. It's poor, poor man's nuke. You drop these insects
00:18:22.080
on an enemy, it weakens the population, it ties up the medical resources, but doesn't destroy
00:18:29.980
infrastructure like a new nuclear bomb would. And in one report from a bean counter in the military,
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they said, uh, tularemia, which is tick-borne tularemia, also rabbit fever, we can kill 10,000
00:18:44.900
people at $1.33 a life. So anyways, it was just, uh, there was more to tick-borne diseases than we
00:18:54.160
realize. And I began suspecting that Willie was right, given this context.
00:19:01.380
It's, it's hard to digest all of this. It's just so evil. Um, it's hard to believe it could happen
00:19:06.660
in the United States. Um, but I, I think you're, you're right that it did and maybe still happening.
00:19:13.240
Let me ask what you think happened in the specific case of Lyme. So these kinds of experiments were
00:19:21.440
taking place on Plum Island. Is that confirmed? Well, Plum Island only did animal diseases.
00:19:28.740
There was another branch, which was Maryland, Fort Detrick. They did anti-human, uh, weapons. But
00:19:36.780
I, I'm not sure exactly what got out where, because if you draw, uh, like a five mile circle around
00:19:45.080
Lyme, Connecticut, there's Plum Island, there's several military bases.
00:19:49.180
There are many pharmaceutical companies who were, that were funded by the military to develop,
00:19:57.080
uh, treatments for these diseases. And so they would have to have the diseases on site.
00:20:02.820
So that's my continuing, uh, research there. Um, and there are, there are a couple, well,
00:20:13.160
first of all, back up to weaponize a living system, like a bug or the germs and bugs, or
00:20:19.280
later on in the sixties, they separated the germs and aerosolize them. They would freeze dry them,
00:20:25.280
powderize them, and then spray them on. The plan was to spray them on enemies from planes
00:20:31.980
or buoys or vehicles. Uh, so to develop a weapon like that, you have to have someone like Willie
00:20:40.020
Bergdorfer, seeing if they can get these living systems to work and develop the lethal dosage
00:20:46.340
of those organisms. Then you have to do pilot studies that usually happened, could happen,
00:20:52.520
you know, in Connecticut or at Fort Dietrich in Maryland. And then there would be larger studies,
00:20:58.180
and that would be at like Dugway Proving Grounds in Utah. So there was a lot of leak points for any
00:21:03.060
accidents that could have happened in this biological weapons program. So, um, what Willie said, and I,
00:21:12.460
I think he's a really credible witness because he had the most to lose by admitting towards the end of
00:21:19.160
his life that I covered up something really important and now I feel guilty about it.
00:21:25.600
All his fame came at 56 when he discovered Lyme disease. So what he said is, and he wouldn't give
00:21:31.920
me the details of the organism that was the bioweapon, but he said accidents happened. So my continuing
00:21:38.180
work is to try and figure out, okay, where was the leak? And, and most crucially, it's like, why were
00:21:45.700
there multiple tick-borne diseases in that very, very small spot? Also, there were some in northern
00:21:51.700
Wisconsin where we had a biological weapons, that's the anti-crop area in the genetic engineering area
00:21:57.300
of the bioweapons program. So, um, so I, what I sort, sort through in documents and grants and
00:22:07.680
newspapers.com are, were there sentry die-offs of animals and people that are hidden there? Because
00:22:16.040
the biological weapons program was as secret as the Manhattan program and a lot of the documents
00:22:22.760
were destroyed after the program was canceled in 72. I have to say one of the most outrageous
00:22:30.940
open-air experiments, which I think contributed to the problem around Lyme, Connecticut is
00:22:36.620
coastal Virginia. A tick researcher had an army contract and a contract with the Atomic Energy
00:22:45.160
Commission. And he was testing lone star ticks, uh, as a potential, um, weaponized organism. And the
00:22:56.480
thing about lone star ticks is they're from the, they were from the South, originally identified them
00:23:02.300
in Texas, below the Mason-Dixon line. But here he was on the Mason-Dixon line testing by the hundreds
00:23:09.200
of thousands, uh, a non-native tick. And he wanted to see how hard they, how far they can creep in months
00:23:17.280
to years, because if you're weaponizing it, you would want to know that information. So from Willie
00:23:22.640
Bergdorfer in Montana, he got some pregnant ticks. So they have, uh, they're called gravid ticks, but they
00:23:31.160
have 2,000 to 4,000 eggs inside of them. He would inject them with a, uh, radioactive isotope. The ticks
00:23:41.120
would lay, hatch all their larval babies, and then he would, and then would be radioactive for life. So, first of
00:23:49.860
all, you're going to release them in nature. It isn't going to cause mutations in the organisms inside their gut. But
00:23:57.120
anyways, what he would do is he would take 1,000 ticks and put 1,000 per grid in a marshy field. And then he and his
00:24:05.640
assistants would go out every month. They'd use a Geiger counter to figure out how far the ticks had creeped in that
00:24:12.440
amount of time. And then write studies on them, which are actually in the public domain. But, uh, this is an open air
00:24:23.500
test on the Atlantic Bird Flyway, 1966, 67, 68. And sure enough, like, after those tests ended, there was, uh, an unusual
00:24:39.560
epidemic on Long Island of Rocky Mounted Spotted Fever, which is spread by those kind of ticks. A lot of people
00:24:47.720
died, usually on Long Island, uh, in the late 60s, there would be one death a year. But after this
00:24:54.560
experiment, uh, like, over 100 people gravely ill, quite a few deaths. And actually, that's why Willie
00:25:03.680
Bergdorfer came out, is to try and figure out what happened there. So, the point is, this is just one
00:25:10.640
experiment we know about in the biological weapons program. And why does it matter now? Because
00:25:16.840
human hubris, we can't control nature. And if we're going to play God and, and make these new germs
00:25:24.940
inside ticks, and then release them, there could be blowback, unintended consequences. And that's what I
00:25:32.240
believe. This thing that we call Lyme disease, but which could be multiple organisms, uh, that are making
00:25:40.240
people sick. But no, for some reason, the government said, it's only this one spirochete. It can be cured
00:25:45.960
with two weeks of antibiotics. And I think that's fundamentally untrue.
00:25:57.540
Two last questions. Um, one, did, did you, or have you discovered any die-offs, uh, the, the ones you
00:26:05.860
referred to a minute ago, of people or animals? Clusters of deaths?
00:26:11.580
Yes. Yes. In the late 60s, uh, early 70s, there, there were, um, uh, duck die-offs. The Long Island
00:26:26.700
duck industry was decimated, which, uh, yeah. So, uh, and then also there was, um, epidemics
00:26:37.220
of equine encephalitis, where really high dollar horse flesh died. That's all the late 60s. And then
00:26:45.140
you have the human illness, which we call Lyme disease. But I've talked to witnesses, uh, who
00:26:51.740
went to school. I mean, they're my age now. They went to school and you would, you would see
00:26:56.560
a Lyme Connecticut bus pull up and a third of the bus, these elementary school kids would
00:27:03.140
be carrying crutches with swollen knees. Grotesque. Uh, and so my final question is,
00:27:10.840
it's mostly rhetorical, but has the U.S. government, which is clearly responsible for this, I think it's
00:27:16.160
pretty obvious, um, done anything to, to stop it, to help people who are suffering from it,
00:27:23.200
to offer any kind of payment to people whose lives they destroyed?
00:27:29.780
Well, there, there is no hard proof that this epidemic was caused by them. It's circumstantial
00:27:37.420
evidence, I would say. And I'm really clear in my book to say, this is what we know and this is what
00:27:42.180
we don't know. But I, I find their response to be really inadequate because the symptom list isn't
00:27:50.180
accurate. It's been 40 years and we still don't have a good test. They're only, the NIH, who has a
00:27:57.140
pretty small budget for it, it's gone from 30 million to 50 million a year, is, has, spends like
00:28:04.060
60% of the budget on basic research, but only less than 1% on treatments. So even though the treatment
00:28:12.260
recommended by the CDC, there's like a 20% failure rate and those people go on to get sick, uh, they're
00:28:19.700
not investing anything in treatment. It's, it's pretty similar to what's happening with long COVID.
00:28:24.320
They're just obsessed with the deaths and maybe the upfront acute disease, but not the chronic,
00:28:32.120
the growing number of chronic people. So the thing I worry about is it's, okay, go ahead.
00:28:38.000
Well, it's just, it's, I was just thinking, I would never have done this segment if I hadn't
00:28:42.620
seen it myself. And so somebody has done a pretty good job of discrediting sufferers of whatever this
00:28:48.780
is as crazy and suggesting that these are psychosomatic symptoms. And I'll just speak for
00:28:55.020
myself. I would have bought that if I hadn't known people personally very well who are not crazy at all
00:28:59.700
or depressed or, you know, uh, or fragile even who were decimated by it. So where did that,
00:29:05.340
where did that piece of propaganda come from? Do you know?
00:29:12.900
Um, I think it's the same dynamic, uh, that we see with trying to discredit the lab leak theory.
00:29:22.740
I mean, there's a small group of people that were read into these, this biological weapons program.
00:29:27.940
I know that from reading the emails in NIH when my book came out, like, uh, before they'd read the
00:29:35.000
book, they discredited it because they hadn't read the facts and it was so secretive. So there's a
00:29:40.060
small group of people controlling the information. Uh, and the, the boots on the ground physicians now
00:29:47.380
have been trained the whole 15 minutes of medical school that they learn about tick-borne diseases,
00:29:52.020
that Lyme disease is over-diagnosed. It's easy to cure. And they don't know this very elaborate,
00:29:58.900
complicated backstory. So, I mean, that's what the book hopefully will do is, uh, read them that
00:30:06.480
they need to treat tick-borne diseases, uh, seriously. They're not minor, they're life-changing,
00:30:13.940
and it's going to be a drag on our economy to have this, these many, this many, uh, long COVID,
00:30:21.700
chronic fatigue, and Lyme disease patients, uh, unable to work. So they haven't invested in
00:30:28.140
treatments. So for people who are interested in learning more, can you restate the title of your
00:30:32.520
book, if you would? It's written, The Secret History of Lyme Disease and Biological Weapons. And I
00:30:40.220
have to say, I didn't prove that Lyme disease is a biological weapon, but I'm saying,
00:30:43.940
something unusual, which I think is related to the biological weapons program, had it happened in
00:30:48.500
the late sixties and the government wants to cover it up. And it matters because how you treat an
00:30:55.460
unnatural disease is different than a natural disease where people have developed immunity,
00:31:00.480
uh, for an unusual disease, you need, uh, a more well thought out, intelligent treatment plan.
00:31:08.640
Well, sure. I mean, it's not like cholera, you know, we've been dealing with for millennia.
00:31:12.780
Um, I sure appreciate your coming on. Thank you. That's fascinating. And, and thanks for all the
00:31:17.400
responsible research you've done into this. Appreciate it.
00:31:21.540
Yeah. Yeah. Thanks very much for talking to me.
00:31:27.820
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00:31:42.480
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