Author Kris Newby explains how the first Lyme Disease infections happened just a few miles from an animal-testing lab in Connecticut. Could the spread of the disease be related to a lab leak？
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Summary
Tucker Carlson: Lyme disease is the fastest growing infectious disease in the country . Lyme is caused by a spirochetal bacteria, and you get it through a tick bite . It's very often misdiagnosed or diagnosed late, and that's where the controversy comes in for the disease . Author Chris Newby has spent a lot of time thinking and researching on this topic, has been affected personally by Lyme .
Transcript
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Welcome to the Tucker Carlson podcast. It's pretty obvious at this point that the corporate
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media are dying quickly, but why? Because they lie. That's right. They lie and they died as a
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result. But at tuckercarlson.com, we do not lie. We promise to bring you honest interviews and
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commentary without fear. Here's our latest episode. If you live in certain parts of this
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country, rural areas particularly, you know people who have or who have had Lyme disease.
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And for some of them, maybe most, it's not a huge deal. You go in and you get a big dose of
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antibiotics, you have some symptoms, and then it seems to go away. But for some percentage,
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and you may know these people too, it's totally life-destroying. It's years in bed. It's agony.
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It's really the end of your productive life. So what is that exactly? What is Lyme disease?
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Well, there's still an active debate about that very basic question. Some have dismissed it as a
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psychological symptom, actually. But even people who acknowledge that it's a physical syndrome
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aren't always very clear, and they're certainly not in agreement with one another about what it is or
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where it came from. So back in 2008, a woman called Chris Newby produced a documentary about Lyme.
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At that point, it was becoming a very serious global illness, and its origins were mysterious,
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unknown. People whispered about it, but no one could be certain. That documentary was called
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Some infectious disease doctors, they don't believe in Lyme. And they said that I was faking it and
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Lyme is the fastest growing infectious disease in the country. 200,000 new cases here, maybe even more.
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It is a political disease and an economic disease as much as it is a bacterial-borne infection.
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I would never, never have thought that something like a bacteriological infection can become so
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politicized that the truth can be so brutally distorted.
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I go into despair daily. I cry daily. I want to die daily.
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Well, when I saw this doctor, you know, he said, you've got a long road ahead of you. It's not going
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to be easy. So that scared me. The unknown is pretty scary.
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It is a national health crisis that is completely and totally being ignored and squashed.
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Well, you could write it off, and again, some have as a figment of your imagination,
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but there are real neurological symptoms. And if you know anyone who's had it, you know that it's
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entirely real. So again, what is this? Well, Chris Newby has spent a lot of time thinking and
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researching on this topic, has been affected personally by Lyme, is the author of Bitten,
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The Secret History of Biological Weapons and Lyme Disease. And she joins us now. Chris Newby,
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thanks so much for coming on. So can you just give us a-
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Oh, absolutely. A quick and succinct overview of what Lyme is.
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So Lyme disease is caused by a spirochetal bacteria, and you get it through a tick bite.
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And if you treat it immediately with doxycycline or amoxicillin, it will go away. The problem is,
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it's very often misdiagnosed or diagnosed late. And that's where the controversy comes in for the
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disease. It can linger for months to years, and then it's really hard to get rid of. And
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into complicated, a tick can transmit up to like 20 different disease-causing microbes. And so if you
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have like two or three or four of those in one tick bite, it creates a confusing set of symptoms that
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So doctors can isolate, however, the organism that causes Lyme specifically. I mean, there's no
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mystery about where that comes from. Is that correct?
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Well, there are antibody tests for Lyme disease. It's really, really hard to culture the, you know,
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The problem is the tests are not very reliable. The Lyme disease antibody tests
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don't usually work in the first month. It takes a while for your body to develop antibodies to the
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level that they can be measured. And then later on, the tests aren't that great. It's no better than
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a coin flip because it just depends on what strain you have and what you're, if you're really sick,
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you won't produce antibodies. Interesting. So the problem with tick-borne diseases is there are a
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lot more ticks than there have been in our lifetimes anyway. Parts of the Northeast have
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seen an explosion in tick populations to the point where large mammals are being decimated,
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sucked dry of blood and dying because they have too many ticks on them. So that's not anyone's
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imagination. That's measurable. So if you have a disease that's spread by ticks and there are a whole
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lot more ticks, you're going to get a whole lot more cases of the disease. Is this measured, measurable?
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Yes. And I would say just the cases of Lyme disease are going up, which is proving that ticks
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are biting people. The CDC estimates they're half a million cases a year. That's on average 1,300 people
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a day. So that's significant. Now, why they're spreading so quickly, I go into that in the book a
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little bit. I mean, there certainly is global, with climate change, which means winters aren't as
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severe and a lot of the ticks don't die off. That's true in Maine. And then part of it is people are
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moving into the woods and are exposed more to the ticks. Yes, all true in Maine and other northern
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states. But it does raise the question, like, how did this... I mean, if you're 75 years old,
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you did not grow up with Lyme disease. If you're 15 years old, you're worried about Lyme disease.
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That's a pretty short period. Where do we think this came from? Well, the thing I found in my research
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for my book is Lyme disease wasn't a noticeable problem until the mid-70s. And what my research said
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is that there are actually three really virulent tick-borne diseases that showed up right around
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Lyme, Connecticut, at the mouth of the Connecticut River, which is right across from Plum Island,
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which was the U.S.'s anti-animal crop headquarters for the biological weapons program. So late 60s,
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the peak of the biological weapons program in the U.S., these three freaky diseases showed up. So that was
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Lyme arthritis caused by the spirochete. There was a rickettsia, which is Rocky Man of Spotted Fever. And
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then there was a cattle parasite. It was the second time it was found in man in that area called Babesia.
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And that's actually, I got Lyme and Babesia, which can be fatal, and it's a serious disease.
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So all three, so you have a cluster, effectively, of these three previously rare diseases right across
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the water from the U.S. government's biological weapons testing facility. Is that what you're saying?
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Yeah. And it's, if you're like working for the CDC and on the lookout for natural versus unnatural
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disease outbreaks, having three new tick-borne diseases show up, extra deadly disease causing
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than in the past, it would raise, it would raise, it would get their attention and there would be
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investigations, which is what happened. That sounds like a crazed conspiracy theory to me,
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just because you have previously rare diseases show up all at once across from a biological weapons
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facility doesn't mean, so, okay, so the CDC investigated this. What did they find?
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Well, it, a housewife in Lyme, Connecticut, Polly Murray, was the first one to start documenting,
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and she started pounding on the doors of local health departments and the CDC. And it really took
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her seven years before the CDC responded, and a doctor named Alan Steer showed up and started,
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from Yale, he's a CDC EIS officer, and started investigating it. And he, they, he figured out it was
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tick-borne, but he couldn't figure out the causative agent. And at that point, the U.S.'s number one
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tick researcher, Willie Bergdorfer, a Swiss-American tick guy who was in NIH's Rocky Mountain Laboratory,
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came out to investigate. And that's where he found, I mean, the public-facing story is,
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he found the spirochete, it causes this bullseye rash, he said, that's what's causing all the disease,
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and the panic should stop, just take two weeks of doxycycling, and the problem will go away. But
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it didn't. And that's where my book took off. I started looking at the backstory, and wondering
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what really happened. And people associated with that disease weren't acting in the normal way.
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Normally, when you discover a dangerous new disease, you say, oh, this is horrible. Give us money,
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we'll research it. But instead, it just became more and more secretive.
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So is it your belief that Willie Bergdorfer, who I think is gone now, but knew the truth about what
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happened? And what do you think is the truth? Well, I worked on the Lyme disease documentary
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with fresh eyes because I didn't know anything about the disease until my husband and I got it.
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And the thing that was unusual is the symptoms set on the CDC website and in the medical textbooks
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was totally different than what we had experienced. So then I teamed up with the director, Andy
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Wilson, and we spent three and a half years researching the disease. And what we found out
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is it was just an enormous epidemic. So many people are suffering. And the treatment recommended
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by public health, which was two weeks of doxycycline, wasn't curing it. But these patients who went on to
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get the same symptoms over and over again were not given any more antibiotics. And then we wanted to
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understand what was going on with the disease. So Andy and I called all the CDC people, the NIH people.
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They wouldn't talk to us. Like one of the original discoverers even hung up on me. I said, I just want
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someone to go on camera and talk about how this disease, how this organism causes a disease. But to
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have a professor, you know, who discovered the disease hang up on me, it was just unusual. There was
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paranoia amongst the specialists. So what we did was we went out to see Willie Bergdorfer, who was
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retired, the guy who discovered Lyme disease, at his home. And while we were setting up the cameras,
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someone from the lab knocked on the door and says, I need to sit in on this interview. There's things
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Willie can't talk about. And the director was outraged and kicked him out. But during that
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interview, Willie intimated that there was more to Lyme disease than the public health was letting on,
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the disease is not just a rash, highly neurological, especially damaging for children. And two weeks
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of doxycycline doesn't work. And they know it can go on to be chronic. So it was our first hard proof
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that something wasn't as it seemed on the surface with Lyme disease. And so we got the film out. And one
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thing, one of the aspects that we covered in the film is just conflicts of interest in medicine,
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because right around the time Lyme disease was discovered, researchers at universities, the CDC,
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the NIH, could share in the profits of a new test or vaccine for a disease. So there was a lot of,
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like a CDC employee could match their salary and royalties for a vaccine or a test kit.
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So it corrupted the incentives in medicine, not to share information about a new disease, but
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instead to save it as intellectual property so it can be monetized. So, so anyways, we got the film
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out. There were rumors swirling around about Plum Island and it being, Lyme disease being a biological
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weapon, but we had enough to cover with the patient story and the conflict story. And then I was done
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with it and I got a great job writing science for Stanford Medical School in the science department.
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And I was going to walk away and get along with my life. But then two things happened within the space
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of a month. And I, I said, I can't let this story go. I just have to know what is really going on with
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this disease. And one was, I met a CDC, I mean, a CIA black ops guy who said in 1962, the weirdest
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thing he'd ever done in his whole crazy apocalypse now career was dropping poison ticks on Cuban sugar
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cane workers. That was Operation Mongoose. So that was the first evidence that we had dropped ticks on
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a foreign country as a bioweapon. And then the other thing is one of my filmmaker friends went out to
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Willy Bergdorfer and in a very long interview, he, at the very end, he said, yeah, when I investigated the Lyme
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disease sickness in the late 70s, early 80s, there was another organism there. It wasn't just Lyme that was
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making people sick. It was, um, I, and I was told to cover it up. It was probably a Rickettsia. He
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didn't let, release all the information, but what he said was confirmed by copies of his lab books
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and, um, and, uh, subsequent interviews that I had with him.
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And, and, and pardon my ignorance, what is the disease you described the other one? Rickettsia?
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Yeah. So, so it's a Rickettsia. It is, uh, the same organism that causes Rocky Mountain spotted fever,
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and that's the most deadly tick-borne disease in the United States. It also was a germ that was being
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weaponized by the, um, the U.S. military at the time. And, and they tried to stuff it in ticks. I mean,
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so what is tick weaponization? So in the interviews with Willie, what he said was,
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I spent over a decade in the biological weapons program, a contractor to Fort Dietrich, um, working
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on, uh, weaponizing fleas, ticks, and mosquitoes, trying to mass produce them, stuffing fleas with the
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plague, uh, stuffing mosquitoes with deadly Trinidad virus, Trinidad virus, and then stuffing ticks with
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either deadly or incapacitating, hascipating diseases like relapsing fever, Venezuelan
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equine encephalitis, rabies, uh, leptospirosis, which is another spirochete. So it's just like
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Dr. Strangelove, uh, trying to make new diseases, mixing bacteria and virus in ticks with the intent
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of, this is the perfect stealth weapon. It's poor, poor man's nuke. You drop these insects
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on an enemy, it weakens the population, it ties up the medical resources, but doesn't destroy
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infrastructure like a new nuclear bomb would. And in one report from a bean counter in the military,
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they said, uh, tularemia, which is tick-borne tularemia, also rabbit fever, we can kill 10,000
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people at $1.33 a life. So anyways, it was just, uh, there was more to tick-borne diseases than we
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realize. And I began suspecting that Willie was right, given this context.
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It's, it's hard to digest all of this. It's just so evil. Um, it's hard to believe it could happen
00:19:06.660
in the United States. Um, but I, I think you're, you're right that it did and maybe still happening.
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Let me ask what you think happened in the specific case of Lyme. So these kinds of experiments were
00:19:21.440
taking place on Plum Island. Is that confirmed? Well, Plum Island only did animal diseases.
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There was another branch, which was Maryland, Fort Detrick. They did anti-human, uh, weapons. But
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I, I'm not sure exactly what got out where, because if you draw, uh, like a five mile circle around
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Lyme, Connecticut, there's Plum Island, there's several military bases.
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There are many pharmaceutical companies who were, that were funded by the military to develop,
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uh, treatments for these diseases. And so they would have to have the diseases on site.
00:20:02.820
So that's my continuing, uh, research there. Um, and there are, there are a couple, well,
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first of all, back up to weaponize a living system, like a bug or the germs and bugs, or
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later on in the sixties, they separated the germs and aerosolize them. They would freeze dry them,
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powderize them, and then spray them on. The plan was to spray them on enemies from planes
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or buoys or vehicles. Uh, so to develop a weapon like that, you have to have someone like Willie
00:20:40.020
Bergdorfer, seeing if they can get these living systems to work and develop the lethal dosage
00:20:46.340
of those organisms. Then you have to do pilot studies that usually happened, could happen,
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you know, in Connecticut or at Fort Dietrich in Maryland. And then there would be larger studies,
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and that would be at like Dugway Proving Grounds in Utah. So there was a lot of leak points for any
00:21:03.060
accidents that could have happened in this biological weapons program. So, um, what Willie said, and I,
00:21:12.460
I think he's a really credible witness because he had the most to lose by admitting towards the end of
00:21:19.160
his life that I covered up something really important and now I feel guilty about it.
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All his fame came at 56 when he discovered Lyme disease. So what he said is, and he wouldn't give
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me the details of the organism that was the bioweapon, but he said accidents happened. So my continuing
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work is to try and figure out, okay, where was the leak? And, and most crucially, it's like, why were
00:21:45.700
there multiple tick-borne diseases in that very, very small spot? Also, there were some in northern
00:21:51.700
Wisconsin where we had a biological weapons, that's the anti-crop area in the genetic engineering area
00:21:57.300
of the bioweapons program. So, um, so I, what I sort, sort through in documents and grants and
00:22:07.680
newspapers.com are, were there sentry die-offs of animals and people that are hidden there? Because
00:22:16.040
the biological weapons program was as secret as the Manhattan program and a lot of the documents
00:22:22.760
were destroyed after the program was canceled in 72. I have to say one of the most outrageous
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open-air experiments, which I think contributed to the problem around Lyme, Connecticut is
00:22:36.620
coastal Virginia. A tick researcher had an army contract and a contract with the Atomic Energy
00:22:45.160
Commission. And he was testing lone star ticks, uh, as a potential, um, weaponized organism. And the
00:22:56.480
thing about lone star ticks is they're from the, they were from the South, originally identified them
00:23:02.300
in Texas, below the Mason-Dixon line. But here he was on the Mason-Dixon line testing by the hundreds
00:23:09.200
of thousands, uh, a non-native tick. And he wanted to see how hard they, how far they can creep in months
00:23:17.280
to years, because if you're weaponizing it, you would want to know that information. So from Willie
00:23:22.640
Bergdorfer in Montana, he got some pregnant ticks. So they have, uh, they're called gravid ticks, but they
00:23:31.160
have 2,000 to 4,000 eggs inside of them. He would inject them with a, uh, radioactive isotope. The ticks
00:23:41.120
would lay, hatch all their larval babies, and then he would, and then would be radioactive for life. So, first of
00:23:49.860
all, you're going to release them in nature. It isn't going to cause mutations in the organisms inside their gut. But
00:23:57.120
anyways, what he would do is he would take 1,000 ticks and put 1,000 per grid in a marshy field. And then he and his
00:24:05.640
assistants would go out every month. They'd use a Geiger counter to figure out how far the ticks had creeped in that
00:24:12.440
amount of time. And then write studies on them, which are actually in the public domain. But, uh, this is an open air
00:24:23.500
test on the Atlantic Bird Flyway, 1966, 67, 68. And sure enough, like, after those tests ended, there was, uh, an unusual
00:24:39.560
epidemic on Long Island of Rocky Mounted Spotted Fever, which is spread by those kind of ticks. A lot of people
00:24:47.720
died, usually on Long Island, uh, in the late 60s, there would be one death a year. But after this
00:24:54.560
experiment, uh, like, over 100 people gravely ill, quite a few deaths. And actually, that's why Willie
00:25:03.680
Bergdorfer came out, is to try and figure out what happened there. So, the point is, this is just one
00:25:10.640
experiment we know about in the biological weapons program. And why does it matter now? Because
00:25:16.840
human hubris, we can't control nature. And if we're going to play God and, and make these new germs
00:25:24.940
inside ticks, and then release them, there could be blowback, unintended consequences. And that's what I
00:25:32.240
believe. This thing that we call Lyme disease, but which could be multiple organisms, uh, that are making
00:25:40.240
people sick. But no, for some reason, the government said, it's only this one spirochete. It can be cured
00:25:45.960
with two weeks of antibiotics. And I think that's fundamentally untrue.
00:25:57.540
Two last questions. Um, one, did, did you, or have you discovered any die-offs, uh, the, the ones you
00:26:05.860
referred to a minute ago, of people or animals? Clusters of deaths?
00:26:11.580
Yes. Yes. In the late 60s, uh, early 70s, there, there were, um, uh, duck die-offs. The Long Island
00:26:26.700
duck industry was decimated, which, uh, yeah. So, uh, and then also there was, um, epidemics
00:26:37.220
of equine encephalitis, where really high dollar horse flesh died. That's all the late 60s. And then
00:26:45.140
you have the human illness, which we call Lyme disease. But I've talked to witnesses, uh, who
00:26:51.740
went to school. I mean, they're my age now. They went to school and you would, you would see
00:26:56.560
a Lyme Connecticut bus pull up and a third of the bus, these elementary school kids would
00:27:03.140
be carrying crutches with swollen knees. Grotesque. Uh, and so my final question is,
00:27:10.840
it's mostly rhetorical, but has the U.S. government, which is clearly responsible for this, I think it's
00:27:16.160
pretty obvious, um, done anything to, to stop it, to help people who are suffering from it,
00:27:23.200
to offer any kind of payment to people whose lives they destroyed?
00:27:29.780
Well, there, there is no hard proof that this epidemic was caused by them. It's circumstantial
00:27:37.420
evidence, I would say. And I'm really clear in my book to say, this is what we know and this is what
00:27:42.180
we don't know. But I, I find their response to be really inadequate because the symptom list isn't
00:27:50.180
accurate. It's been 40 years and we still don't have a good test. They're only, the NIH, who has a
00:27:57.140
pretty small budget for it, it's gone from 30 million to 50 million a year, is, has, spends like
00:28:04.060
60% of the budget on basic research, but only less than 1% on treatments. So even though the treatment
00:28:12.260
recommended by the CDC, there's like a 20% failure rate and those people go on to get sick, uh, they're
00:28:19.700
not investing anything in treatment. It's, it's pretty similar to what's happening with long COVID.
00:28:24.320
They're just obsessed with the deaths and maybe the upfront acute disease, but not the chronic,
00:28:32.120
the growing number of chronic people. So the thing I worry about is it's, okay, go ahead.
00:28:38.000
Well, it's just, it's, I was just thinking, I would never have done this segment if I hadn't
00:28:42.620
seen it myself. And so somebody has done a pretty good job of discrediting sufferers of whatever this
00:28:48.780
is as crazy and suggesting that these are psychosomatic symptoms. And I'll just speak for
00:28:55.020
myself. I would have bought that if I hadn't known people personally very well who are not crazy at all
00:28:59.700
or depressed or, you know, uh, or fragile even who were decimated by it. So where did that,
00:29:05.340
where did that piece of propaganda come from? Do you know?
00:29:12.900
Um, I think it's the same dynamic, uh, that we see with trying to discredit the lab leak theory.
00:29:22.740
I mean, there's a small group of people that were read into these, this biological weapons program.
00:29:27.940
I know that from reading the emails in NIH when my book came out, like, uh, before they'd read the
00:29:35.000
book, they discredited it because they hadn't read the facts and it was so secretive. So there's a
00:29:40.060
small group of people controlling the information. Uh, and the, the boots on the ground physicians now
00:29:47.380
have been trained the whole 15 minutes of medical school that they learn about tick-borne diseases,
00:29:52.020
that Lyme disease is over-diagnosed. It's easy to cure. And they don't know this very elaborate,
00:29:58.900
complicated backstory. So, I mean, that's what the book hopefully will do is, uh, read them that
00:30:06.480
they need to treat tick-borne diseases, uh, seriously. They're not minor, they're life-changing,
00:30:13.940
and it's going to be a drag on our economy to have this, these many, this many, uh, long COVID,
00:30:21.700
chronic fatigue, and Lyme disease patients, uh, unable to work. So they haven't invested in
00:30:28.140
treatments. So for people who are interested in learning more, can you restate the title of your
00:30:32.520
book, if you would? It's written, The Secret History of Lyme Disease and Biological Weapons. And I
00:30:40.220
have to say, I didn't prove that Lyme disease is a biological weapon, but I'm saying,
00:30:43.940
something unusual, which I think is related to the biological weapons program, had it happened in
00:30:48.500
the late sixties and the government wants to cover it up. And it matters because how you treat an
00:30:55.460
unnatural disease is different than a natural disease where people have developed immunity,
00:31:00.480
uh, for an unusual disease, you need, uh, a more well thought out, intelligent treatment plan.
00:31:08.640
Well, sure. I mean, it's not like cholera, you know, we've been dealing with for millennia.
00:31:12.780
Um, I sure appreciate your coming on. Thank you. That's fascinating. And, and thanks for all the
00:31:17.400
responsible research you've done into this. Appreciate it.
00:31:21.540
Yeah. Yeah. Thanks very much for talking to me.
00:31:27.820
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00:31:42.480
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