The Tucker Carlson Show

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00:00:15.200 When you realize, I mean, you obviously learned the hard way, I did too,

00:00:18.900 but the people who run the business are just not good people.

00:00:23.140 There's some friendly people, there's certainly some smart people,

00:00:27.160 there are some people who are good people,

00:00:28.440 but in general, I worked at three different TV networks full-time

00:00:33.680 and then two others part-time,

00:00:35.780 and I just found as a rule, management,

00:00:38.700 they just weren't people you would make the godparents to your kids.

00:00:40.560 A lot of people are afraid.

00:00:41.800 I mean, I just think it's like...

00:00:43.480 Is that what it is?

00:00:44.140 Well, certainly linear television, you know, now the big companies,

00:00:47.760 I think people are terrified.

00:00:49.300 You know, you see management,

00:00:51.180 they don't know where they're going to be the next day.

00:00:58.440 Welcome to the Tucker Carlson Show.

00:01:06.100 We bring you stories that have not been showcased anywhere else,

00:01:10.000 and they're not censored, of course, because we're not gatekeepers.

00:01:13.440 We are honest brokers here to tell you what we think you need to know

00:01:16.900 and do it honestly.

00:01:18.640 Check out all of our content at tuckercarlson.com.

00:01:21.560 Here's the episode.

00:01:22.840 So leadership is hard to find, and gutsy leadership.

00:01:28.240 You look back at the, you know, the days of great sitcom television,

00:01:32.480 you look at, you know, Brandon Tartikoff and Grant Tinker

00:01:35.400 and some of these great legends that said,

00:01:38.040 you know what, we're going to stick with this Seinfeld bomb.

00:01:41.200 It's not, the ratings are terrible, but...

00:01:43.740 That's right.

00:01:44.220 What a, there's something there, and we're going to hold on to it,

00:01:47.300 and we're just, that, you know, as your audience is shrinking

00:01:52.680 and the gains are shrinking, people are just terrified.

00:01:57.360 They're looking over the shoulder.

00:01:58.300 They're wondering, you know, am I the next to get fired, so...

00:02:01.260 I mean, that's absolutely right.

00:02:02.800 I forgot Seinfeld was a bomb at first.

00:02:04.540 It was not doing well.

00:02:06.300 I totally forgot that.

00:02:07.660 Imagine someone pulling that off the air.

00:02:09.580 They would do it now.

00:02:10.520 Didn't work after two episodes or three episodes.

00:02:12.800 This didn't work after a year or two years.

00:02:15.080 No, it's incredible.

00:02:15.900 They had the runway, though, because they were making so much money.

00:02:19.160 NBC was making money in every category then.

00:02:21.720 And it had some good lead-in and all that stuff,

00:02:24.460 and then they stuck with it, and now it's, you know,

00:02:26.980 makes more money in reruns still than most original shows.

00:02:31.920 That's incredible.

00:02:32.860 Yeah.

00:02:33.660 You start, you've been in TV for like 30 years,

00:02:36.080 or in broadcasting certainly for 30 years.

00:02:37.960 Yeah.

00:02:39.560 I still think, though, even when the business was making a ton of money,

00:02:43.340 it was a dishonest business.

00:02:45.940 That's the way it felt to me anyway when I started at CNN.

00:02:48.560 Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, I look at all the places I've been.

00:02:52.180 It's, I think of what I think of our, I think of the moral high ground.

00:02:58.320 Like, it doesn't exist.

00:03:00.480 What does that mean?

00:03:01.280 People grappling for the moral high ground.

00:03:03.780 Anyone who gets fired based upon, you know, for moral purposes,

00:03:07.120 they try to use the morality clause, which every talent has in their contract,

00:03:11.300 the morality clause they lunge for.

00:03:13.660 This is coming from people who don't have a leg to stand on.

00:03:17.380 When it comes to that, it's like, it's just a big laugh.

00:03:21.160 Everyone, you know, the firers are all completely morally compromised.

00:03:26.600 So, so, well, that's, I mean.

00:03:32.780 I would just look at each other.

00:03:33.720 Let's all look at each other for a second.

00:03:35.060 Really?

00:03:35.600 Do any of us belong standing on this?

00:03:38.100 This is all about gain.

00:03:39.600 Okay.

00:03:39.980 Who's up?

00:03:40.460 Who's down?

00:03:41.500 Then why?

00:03:42.840 No, I, of course, I know what you're talking about.

00:03:45.020 And I think that from, I mean, I'm obviously long out of it,

00:03:48.540 but I think of that from afar when I see these people getting all huffy

00:03:52.080 about this or that moral transgression.

00:03:53.580 And I'm like, wait a second, you know, you slept with my intern.

00:03:57.360 You killed your own intern or whatever.

00:03:59.480 You know what I mean?

00:04:00.620 Let's call the whole thing off.

00:04:02.440 No, that's right.

00:04:03.700 But why, I'm just like general question, but why,

00:04:07.740 why not just call you in and say, you know,

00:04:10.860 this isn't working for us financially.

00:04:12.760 Why do they feel the need to dress it up?

00:04:15.280 Not, not, I'm not speaking specifically of you,

00:04:17.120 but it's always like.

00:04:18.520 Well, that's the Megyn Kelly situation, right?

00:04:20.400 I mean, I love Megyn.

00:04:21.180 Why not call her in and say, we gave you way too big a budget.

00:04:25.040 This is giant and the ratings aren't there.

00:04:27.320 And also you're doing something different.

00:04:28.900 Megyn, I love Megyn.

00:04:30.420 She's a friend.

00:04:31.880 She was a ferocious attorney interviewing people at nine o'clock at night.

00:04:36.180 And then, you know, the daytime show with, you know, like here's the fresh muffins, everybody.

00:04:42.460 And, you know, it's just all of a sudden it's like, well, it's like Martha Stewart years ago

00:04:46.940 had a version of The Apprentice after Donald Trump had The Apprentice.

00:04:50.180 They gave one to Martha.

00:04:51.420 They thought that would be great.

00:04:52.440 But Martha had a different idea.

00:04:54.320 Her idea was, I'm going to write sweet handwritten notes on pink stationery.

00:04:59.060 I'm sorry.

00:04:59.640 We have to let you go.

00:05:00.720 No, that's not the Martha we want.

00:05:02.180 The Martha we want, the Martha we love is cold and tough.

00:05:06.300 And a nut cutter.

00:05:07.120 Yeah, nut cutter.

00:05:08.100 You're out of here, bitch.

00:05:09.200 You're gone.

00:05:10.620 That's the Martha we wanted.

00:05:12.760 So, you know, this is, it happens that you have to stay, I guess, you know.

00:05:19.160 But Megyn is such a great example, though.

00:05:21.400 So they hire Megyn.

00:05:23.780 She's, you know, got a kind of.

00:05:25.680 Fired by the same man that fired me.

00:05:28.100 And instead of saying, hey, the ratings don't match the $40 million a year budget or whatever it is.

00:05:36.280 They fire Megyn for asking a question about when blackface fell out of vogue or was not acceptable at all for Halloween and things.

00:05:48.400 I mean, remember, think of all the late night comics who are working today that used to regularly do blackface on their shows.

00:05:55.900 Okay.

00:05:56.060 And there was a time where if a girl dressed up as Diana Ross, it was like she legitimately loved Diana Ross.

00:06:03.980 But then, you know, it, it, she, all Megyn did was ask the question, when, give me a year or a period when that became absolutely unacceptable to the point that your career and everything will be taken over.

00:06:20.140 So asking that was the equivalent of, like, lynching a bunch of people in Mississippi.

00:06:23.380 Yeah, and they trucked out, you know, different people from the network and, you know, Al Roker and Craig Melvin came out and, and they did a show and they talked about how horrible it was.

00:06:33.420 And, and so they sent Megyn on her way.

00:06:36.820 What Megyn did, I think, is what you did and said, absolutely not.

00:06:41.420 You'll pay me out in, in full, my contract will be paid.

00:06:45.700 And I think Megyn got all 60 some million dollars or whatever it was to then go off and build what she's built, which is pretty awesome.

00:06:54.660 She's tough.

00:06:55.440 She's a tough woman.

00:06:56.220 She's tough.

00:06:56.560 And she got tougher going through that.

00:06:59.500 And I think like a lot of people I've known, you either become a better person or a worse person.

00:07:03.380 And she became, I think, a better person.

00:07:04.940 Yeah.

00:07:05.120 She's a wonderful person.

00:07:06.480 One of my favorite people, actually.

00:07:08.700 So I think it was, you know, a huge victory for her on every level.

00:07:13.300 I was proud of her.

00:07:14.060 She didn't do anything wrong, but ask a question.

00:07:17.520 I know.

00:07:17.840 She never said, we should be allowed to do blackface again.

00:07:21.660 She didn't say that.

00:07:22.660 Yeah.

00:07:22.920 She said, when was the, all she did was raise the question.

00:07:26.220 Now, remember, this is also retribution.

00:07:27.920 The man that was the chairman of NBC News at the time who fired her, she had recently put out, you know, a, an email calling him a liar.

00:07:39.240 Who was that?

00:07:40.040 To the staff, Andy Lack.

00:07:41.140 She called Andy Lack a liar because she, you know, she said, wait a minute, we have someone who has corroborated, you know, Rose McGowan, the actress.

00:07:50.060 We have a, who corroborated that, you know, this in the Me Too movement with, in this whole Weinstein case.

00:07:56.300 So just to refresh for people who don't recall, the allegation was, and I think it was true, that NBC had the goods on Harvey Weinstein, that he was behaving in an abusive way, in a legit abusive way toward women.

00:08:09.780 Yeah, Ronan Farrell was doing his, exactly.

00:08:13.180 Yeah.

00:08:13.780 And they sat on it?

00:08:15.280 And Ronan alleges that they, they sat on it and said, you know, you don't have enough.

00:08:21.240 You don't have anyone who's on camera and in name.

00:08:23.720 And Megan said, wait a minute.

00:08:25.220 Yeah, Rose McGowan, in camera, on camera, in name.

00:08:28.540 She's, we've got a name.

00:08:29.620 She'll go.

00:08:30.020 So, and they, I guess, overlooked that and, or refused to acknowledge it.

00:08:36.940 And so, but the idea was that, you know, the guy, the guy who was president of NBC News at the time is, is Noah Oppenheim and he's a script writer.

00:08:47.960 He's really a script writer.

00:08:50.080 And he's so, you know, does he want to write scripts for Harvey?

00:08:55.480 Who knows?

00:08:56.480 But there's that relationship and Harvey, you know, was never afraid to pick up the phone.

00:09:01.020 I've had Harvey Weinstein call me.

00:09:02.920 This is a great film.

00:09:03.900 You should have this on your show on Access Hollywood when I was the host.

00:09:07.160 You know, hammering me to have a, he was a, you know, an animal.

00:09:12.820 So he, it seems very likely that he was applying pressure to executives at NBC, including Noah Oppenheim.

00:09:19.740 Yeah, it seems likely.

00:09:20.260 You have to, you have to assume.

00:09:21.640 Well, he'll probably, he would apply pressure to anyone.

00:09:23.760 If he's, if little Billy Bush over at Access Hollywood is getting pressure, then you know that Today Show is.

00:09:28.560 For sure.

00:09:29.520 So Megan pipes up and says, actually, Andy Lack, her boss, what you're saying is not quite right.

00:09:36.040 And they decide we got to kill this woman.

00:09:38.860 Yeah.

00:09:39.160 So it's retribution.

00:09:41.100 Clean and simple retribution.

00:09:42.880 And I'm sure Megan's lawyer, Brian Friedman, who's one of the best, you know, lawyers in this game, turn and said, oh, no, you're not going to just.

00:09:51.840 Yeah.

00:09:52.480 She has done absolutely nothing wrong.

00:09:55.200 Nice try.

00:09:55.940 You can try and brand her a racist, which she is not.

00:09:58.800 I forgot.

00:09:59.380 For asking a question, but you are going to pay her out in full.

00:10:02.060 And then she's going to go build her own network.

00:10:05.420 And by the way, I saw her last week that Megan surpassed NBC News and YouTube views on her own.

00:10:12.760 That's so great.

00:10:14.280 So she was, she was crowing about that.

00:10:16.560 And I have to say I smiled.

00:10:18.140 I'm in the comments section.

00:10:19.140 If you look down, by the way, way to go, girl.

00:10:21.840 I love it.

00:10:22.740 So why, and I'd forgotten this part of it, Al Roker and Craig Melvin are two hosts on NBC, both black, and they torpedoed Megan.

00:10:34.720 Look, play ball or not, right?

00:10:37.080 I mean, they were asked to appear and talk about, you know, the severity of it.

00:10:44.280 And this is when you're in the machine.

00:10:46.060 The severity of it.

00:10:46.500 The severity of blackface and, you know, appropriation and all these things.

00:10:51.480 Look, these types of situations are offered to you, right?

00:10:56.640 I mean, play ball with the big machine or maybe you're out next, too.

00:11:01.140 I will say this.

00:11:02.100 Craig Melvin is a really good guy.

00:11:04.180 I like him a lot.

00:11:04.900 For the two months that I was at the Today Show, he had the office next to mine.

00:11:09.360 And we would call in response, sing.

00:11:11.440 I liked the guy so much, you know, I would go, it's a beautiful morning.

00:11:17.240 And then he would finish the lyric.

00:11:18.560 And he was just a charmingly lovely guy.

00:11:21.980 Roker, on the other hand, is a bit vindictive.

00:11:24.620 He's the, he's, he's not jovial.

00:11:29.020 He's.

00:11:29.640 No?

00:11:30.220 Because you do think fat people are jovial, just by definition almost.

00:11:34.200 Well.

00:11:35.340 I mean, I always assume that.

00:11:38.160 Don't you?

00:11:39.140 Well.

00:11:40.780 Like Santa Claus, kind of.

00:11:42.420 Yeah, you're supposed to be.

00:11:43.640 Yeah.

00:11:43.940 Maybe that makes you mad.

00:11:44.920 But, uh, uh, although Al got himself in shape, however he did it.

00:11:48.880 And, uh, and.

00:11:50.100 Oh, did he, I haven't seen, I don't have a TV.

00:11:51.780 Well.

00:11:53.300 He's, uh, he.

00:11:56.020 Listen.

00:11:56.780 When I was at the Today Show and I just got there, a producer of mine called me and said,

00:12:03.480 Hey, Al Roker just liked a tweet from someone calling you a white-splaining racist.

00:12:13.800 I said, what?

00:12:15.580 So I looked at him and said, wait, I'm on the air with him every day.

00:12:18.420 You got to be kidding me.

00:12:19.620 So I went to my boss, the head of NBC, uh, the head of the Today Show, Noah Oppenheim.

00:12:24.840 And I said, hey, dude, I can't sit on the air with someone who's going to be liking tweets

00:12:30.720 that call me names that are insane.

00:12:34.000 I haven't done anything of the kind.

00:12:35.240 I don't know what that even means.

00:12:36.180 Like, what are you talking about?

00:12:37.800 So he's like, oh my God, I'm so sorry.

00:12:39.320 And he had to go talk to, you know.

00:12:41.260 I'll talk to him.

00:12:42.300 But you could file him under the group of people who did not want me there, right?

00:12:46.100 So I, I, there's a group that didn't, and, and, you know, Matt Lauer.

00:12:48.800 Did Roker ever say, I think you're a racist?

00:12:51.780 No.

00:12:52.140 To your face?

00:12:52.680 Oh, hey, Bushman, how are you?

00:12:54.520 But like this thing.

00:12:56.020 And, but I could feel like when I got to the Today Show, there was definitely, uh.

00:13:02.960 Wait, where'd you been?

00:13:03.920 Just get, get.

00:13:05.000 Access Hollywood for 15 years.

00:13:07.020 Okay.

00:13:07.440 In LA.

00:13:08.020 Let me give you the brief of how I got to the Today Show.

00:13:10.660 Yeah.

00:13:10.840 Um, I built some leverage.

00:13:13.960 I made, I got a relationship with, uh, the woman who was the head of talent for, uh, ABC

00:13:19.740 News, Good Morning America.

00:13:21.120 Who was that?

00:13:21.760 And her name was Barbara Ferdita.

00:13:23.640 She ended up, uh, offering me, uh, a job.

00:13:27.840 Ben Sherwood was running, uh, ABC News at the time.

00:13:31.680 Uh, they offered me a job for Good Morning America to leave Access Hollywood and become

00:13:36.840 like a national correspondent, but rotating in, in the studio and get your shot, basically.

00:13:42.980 Getting back a little bit more, how'd you wind up on Access Hollywood?

00:13:45.740 I was, uh, I did something local.

00:13:48.360 I did some local, um, feature reports back at WNBC in New York after doing radio for six

00:13:54.360 years.

00:13:54.660 Started in radio in New Hampshire, of all places, right out of college.

00:13:59.540 Then I went to DC, had my own morning show there for five years, uh, like a, you know,

00:14:05.220 a morning zoo type of, uh, morning show.

00:14:08.840 And then I did this local thing in, uh, on television, just my own feature reports, fun

00:14:16.380 stuff that I would write and edit and like, that made me laugh and people liked it.

00:14:21.260 And so ultimately they came to me and said, what's your deal?

00:14:25.860 We'd like to have you, we were looking for an East coast correspondent for our show, Access

00:14:30.240 Hollywood.

00:14:30.740 You'll get to do red carpets and meet all kinds of movie stars.

00:14:33.300 Okay.

00:14:34.600 Sounds good to me.

00:14:35.520 So that I started doing that in the end of 2001 and, you know, moved to the Today Show

00:14:43.800 in 2016 and was there for 15 years.

00:14:47.580 What was that like?

00:14:49.060 I mean, it was really fun in the beginning.

00:14:51.220 It was just awesome.

00:14:52.580 Uh, you know, back when must see TV was on Thursday nights.

00:14:55.700 So, you know, like, you know, the ratings were big.

00:14:58.560 There was car service.

00:14:59.740 It was super fun.

00:15:01.280 I got to do all these events and I sort of moved my way up.

00:15:04.540 And in 2004, they moved me to Los Angeles to become the host of it.

00:15:09.400 And I'm out there, you know, until I said, God, am I going to die doing this?

00:15:14.540 Like, I got to change it up.

00:15:17.220 So I put this like plan into effect to make some inroads.

00:15:21.220 But you could have stayed forever, right?

00:15:22.740 Oh, I could have stayed forever.

00:15:24.280 Yeah.

00:15:24.560 But I really wanted to get to like a Regis Philbin style, you know, morning show.

00:15:31.060 Yeah.

00:15:31.520 Fun, warm.

00:15:32.640 And that was when I made the move to Good Morning America.

00:15:35.820 Then NBC said, wait a minute.

00:15:37.460 Whoa.

00:15:39.100 Leverage is that thing.

00:15:40.200 They know when you have it or you don't.

00:15:41.880 That's right.

00:15:42.100 They knew I had it.

00:15:43.160 They knew I was moving.

00:15:44.220 And so they said, okay, we'll give you the nine o'clock hour at the Today Show.

00:15:47.740 It's yours.

00:15:48.960 Come on in.

00:15:49.940 When was that?

00:15:51.140 And that was 2000.

00:15:52.840 So I made the move, you know, my first day on the air at the Today Show was at the Rio Olympics.

00:16:01.640 Yeah.

00:16:01.920 Yeah.

00:16:02.100 In Brazil.

00:16:02.820 In the summer of 16.

00:16:04.040 In the summer of 16.

00:16:06.140 And my last day was October 7.

00:16:10.540 So sorry to laugh.

00:16:11.840 Yeah.

00:16:12.320 It was exactly two months.

00:16:13.800 In the interest of honesty, we went to high school together and dated sisters.

00:16:16.880 So we've known each other for a while.

00:16:17.900 We should get into that.

00:16:18.940 We don't need to get into that.

00:16:19.840 But I'm just saying.

00:16:21.540 Your wife's younger sister, my first love.

00:16:24.380 Yes.

00:16:25.300 And so obviously I was watching all this carefully as it unfolded.

00:16:31.740 I just, I felt phony not saying that.

00:16:35.360 So you're living in LA, wife and three kids.

00:16:38.240 You plan to move them back to the East Coast.

00:16:41.280 You go to Rio.

00:16:42.620 Big deal.

00:16:43.320 It's the Olympics.

00:16:43.920 NBC has the Olympics.

00:16:45.480 It's, this is how they're going to roll you out.

00:16:47.580 Yeah.

00:16:48.180 Right.

00:16:48.420 Heck of a rollout.

00:16:49.560 Heck of a rollout.

00:16:50.240 Viewership's always up the whole thing.

00:16:52.600 It's the craziest viewership of the cycle.

00:16:54.660 Yeah.

00:16:54.900 Yeah.

00:16:55.920 And you get to Rio.

00:16:57.100 I'll never forget this.

00:17:00.060 And you got basically under my, like right away, the knives came out for you on staff.

00:17:05.580 Right away.

00:17:05.900 What happened?

00:17:09.980 Well, remember the Ryan Lochte story.

00:17:12.720 The Ryan Lochte story broke.

00:17:14.580 It was big.

00:17:15.300 Ryan Lochte was held at gunpoint overnight.

00:17:18.340 They went after, after swimming competitions.

00:17:20.680 He and some other swimmers went out, got drunk, partied.

00:17:23.860 And then they were at a gas station in Rio and they were held at gunpoint.

00:17:26.940 And anyway, we wake up this morning, the morning after this, read it.

00:17:32.360 I'm like, oh my gosh, this story about Ryan Lochte.

00:17:35.320 Two hours later, somehow I run into Ryan Lochte and he's just bumbling down the street with vodka breath.

00:17:42.340 Just like, just, but he's by himself and just bumbling.

00:17:45.800 And I've got an iPhone on me and I'm like, this is a huge story.

00:17:50.560 We're just walking down the street in Rio.

00:17:51.660 This is one of our major athletes held at gunpoint in a foreign country at the Olympics.

00:17:55.940 This is, this is massive.

00:17:57.840 I only have this.

00:17:59.220 So I give to my co-host and friend who's with me.

00:18:02.360 I said, roll this.

00:18:03.580 Lochte, come here.

00:18:04.720 And I pull him over and I said, roll the camera.

00:18:07.200 I have a minute and 42 seconds still on here.

00:18:09.640 It's all I got before the Olympic committee, U.S. Olympic committee representative saw me across the street talking to Ryan Lochte on an iPhone and they book over to stop me.

00:18:20.520 But I get him to tell me what happened.

00:18:23.540 Amazing.

00:18:24.400 And I'm like, wow, because the second week of the Olympics is always a little slow.

00:18:28.400 You got swimming and you got gymnastics and all the big things in the first week.

00:18:32.920 And it's only track and field.

00:18:34.620 It's like pole vault.

00:18:35.820 And it's like, you need something else.

00:18:37.220 Like a storyline would be great.

00:18:38.580 And all of a sudden we have Olympic athletes at gunpoint.

00:18:41.800 This is incredible.

00:18:43.160 And Lochte tells me this story and I go on and, well, it becomes something else.

00:18:48.220 I mean, first of all, Al Roker goes crazy on me and he's like, no, this American apologist stuff begins.

00:18:54.020 And the narrative is set.

00:18:55.020 Wait, wait, I don't understand.

00:18:56.120 So this seems like a legit suit.

00:18:57.260 How could Ryan Lochte do this?

00:18:58.600 He's a terrible, a terrible American with these, you know, this entitled American bravado, you know.

00:19:05.860 And his friends, because he was apparently, he had torn down a poster outside of the bathroom of this gas station and, and they, and all these terrible things that they were doing.

00:19:16.220 No, they were held at gunpoint by terrible people.

00:19:19.700 And I said, wait a minute, we don't know that.

00:19:24.120 This is live on the air.

00:19:25.100 Yeah.

00:19:25.300 Live on the air.

00:19:26.000 I said, wait a minute.

00:19:26.580 We don't know that.

00:19:27.400 All we're getting is that Ryan Lochte did all these terrible things from the minister of information of the Rio police, not known to be the least corrupt police organization in the world.

00:19:40.260 Hello.

00:19:40.480 So, so, uh, I said, hang on for a second.

00:19:44.560 Why would we take that?

00:19:45.280 It's like taking the minister of, you know, you know, of, uh, in Gaza, the making the minister, getting his statistics.

00:19:53.040 You don't, someone who's obviously biased.

00:19:55.940 So I said, uh, okay, uh, just calm down.

00:20:00.300 We don't know anything about what these guys did.

00:20:02.040 In the end, when everything came out, Ryan Lochte didn't lie about anything but one thing.

00:20:08.040 He said he was sitting at gunpoint.

00:20:10.160 He was actually kneeling at gunpoint.

00:20:11.960 That's it.

00:20:12.880 So in other words, everything he said was totally true.

00:20:15.480 And the entire U.S. media organization led by NBC, because we're on the ground, totally savaged this guy.

00:20:23.480 Ryan Lochte?

00:20:23.880 Savaged him.

00:20:24.340 How a horrible American entitled, you know, this, this apologist attitude has come, you know, to, uh, to think he can do anything he wants.

00:20:33.600 He was the victim of a violent crime.

00:20:35.160 Totally the victim.

00:20:36.380 Yeah.

00:20:37.080 Is, you know.

00:20:37.620 Why do you think they did that?

00:20:39.160 And by the way, I want, and he capitulated and he like did this whole apology thing and he did an interview with Matt Lauer.

00:20:44.460 He apologized for being held at gunpoint?

00:20:45.300 Oh, he was like, I'm sorry.

00:20:46.460 I guess I did pull the thing down or the, I don't know what.

00:20:49.740 He just apologized for what they told him to apologize for.

00:20:53.340 And in the end, he did nothing.

00:20:55.120 He did nothing wrong.

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00:22:01.340 Whatever happened to him, do you know?

00:22:20.980 No.

00:22:21.740 Right.

00:22:22.140 I mean, he did a reality show for a minute or tried to.

00:22:26.620 Did he dance with the stars, Tucker, like you?

00:22:29.200 I don't know.

00:22:29.700 I never did that, Billy.

00:22:30.660 Yes, you did.

00:22:31.440 That's bullshit.

00:22:32.440 And you were terrible.

00:22:34.140 I didn't do that.

00:22:36.940 I think actually I had, I was staying at your house during that.

00:22:39.220 Tom DeLay was worse, but you were bad.

00:22:42.540 Well, that's something.

00:22:44.960 But I still don't understand, like, this was basically a decision by, this was from a viewer's perspective,

00:22:52.420 Al Roker decided to change the story and everyone followed him.

00:22:55.420 Well, he was sipping caperanhas within this cocktail and he started going after me like I'm defending, you know, this Ryan Lochte who behaved like, we need to be able to call out our own people who behave terribly and poor Ryan.

00:23:07.480 And I said, we don't, you can pull it up on YouTube.

00:23:11.700 We don't have the information.

00:23:13.920 We don't know.

00:23:14.980 Just wait.

00:23:16.540 Wait.

00:23:17.640 And then two weeks later, when the breeze blows through and everything's done, it comes out.

00:23:22.800 Absolutely.

00:23:23.700 Ryan Lochte told the truth.

00:23:25.120 What do you think Roker's so angry about?

00:23:27.300 I mean, he's like a weather guy on some morning show and he gets paid all this money and everyone's, you know, thinks he's jolly.

00:23:32.300 Everybody wants to be more.

00:23:33.680 Everybody wants to be a great interviewer, but you have to prepare for those and you have to be curious.

00:23:38.360 But why, but what's he mad about?

00:23:40.720 He seems to have succeeded far beyond.

00:23:43.260 I don't know.

00:23:43.620 People in, people in, in network, you know, these big organizations are territorial, very territorial.

00:23:50.400 You can look back at the stories of, you know, Ashley Banfield's story of, of, of the, you know, the big wigs ahead of her, keeping her down, not wanting her to rise up.

00:24:00.580 I was always very close to Matt Lauer and Al Roker until I got to the Today Show.

00:24:05.580 And then I had like targets on my back from the moment I got there.

00:24:09.600 Both of them.

00:24:10.340 There's two worlds.

00:24:11.240 There's the, the, yeah.

00:24:12.480 And, you know, remember my relationship with them before was as the guy on Access Hollywood who basically would promote them.

00:24:20.400 Right.

00:24:21.180 Right.

00:24:21.520 Our job was to promote everything on NBC, whether that's The Apprentice or whether that's the Today Show.

00:24:29.540 I am the chief rabble rouser entertainment guy.

00:24:32.960 We cover everything, but NBC stuff is first.

00:24:36.960 Yes, you can cover, you know, 24 on Fox, but first cover Seinfeld because it's on NBC.

00:24:42.840 So we promote our own things.

00:24:45.340 It's just like a football announcer saying, and tonight, don't be a, you know, make sure you catch NCIS LA tonight at something on CBS.

00:24:53.340 It's a lot of promotion.

00:24:55.520 Access Hollywood was basically a promotional vehicle.

00:24:57.580 So when I showed up as, no, I'm now one of you who could potentially replace you one day because you're old, older than I am.

00:25:09.340 And that's just the way it works.

00:25:11.360 Then, you know, you can feel the energy change.

00:25:14.340 So when I ultimately got fired from NBC, it was a lot to do with the inner workings, the politics of being the new guy there.

00:25:26.600 Did you, what I find so interesting about it, everything you're saying makes sense.

00:25:30.280 Of course, I've seen it a lot.

00:25:31.460 But what's interesting is that nobody said anything to your face, that it was all feline, passive aggression, treachery.

00:25:39.680 Yeah.

00:25:40.440 I've written a, I have a great chapter that I wrote, and I wrote it years ago.

00:25:45.980 So I wouldn't forget any details of what exactly happened with my firing.

00:25:51.720 And it was just, it was, it was, it's unbelievable.

00:25:55.960 I was playing catch up the whole time.

00:25:57.680 I found out that the Access Hollywood bus tape was in the NBC News building by Matt Lauer.

00:26:06.000 Matt Lauer came to me after I got off the air at the Today Show on a Tuesday morning.

00:26:11.020 And he said, hey, what are you going to do about the tape?

00:26:13.140 I said, what?

00:26:14.680 What do you mean, Matt?

00:26:15.780 And he said, the tape, the bus tape, you and Trump and the whole thing.

00:26:18.780 I said, what are you talking about?

00:26:21.240 I said, what do you, what do you mean?

00:26:22.580 This, and I knew what the, I remembered the tape.

00:26:25.820 It's 11 years old at the time.

00:26:27.140 So back up, what, just start at the beginning of this story.

00:26:30.900 What, what, what was this tape?

00:26:33.240 When was it shot?

00:26:34.360 What is it?

00:26:34.820 It was shot in 2005.

00:26:37.420 It was the end of, Access Hollywood was rebuilding a studio.

00:26:41.020 So we had to find a reason to get out of the studio.

00:26:43.720 So we did Access Across America.

00:26:45.680 It started in Miami and the, and it goes to whatever, to Atlanta.

00:26:50.640 And then it goes to, it works its way back to Los Angeles, giving the studio people enough,

00:26:58.940 the workers enough time to finish a new studio.

00:27:01.580 So it's just a, you know, it was sponsored and the whole thing.

00:27:04.140 But the last stop.

00:27:05.000 How long was it?

00:27:05.640 We had to pick up Donald Trump at the Beverly Hills Hotel in Los Angeles and drive him 20

00:27:11.500 minutes to the studio, deliver him because he's going to make an appearance on Days of

00:27:16.860 Our Lives.

00:27:17.840 And he's going to be playing him, he's going to be playing a big, gaudy billionaire who gets

00:27:24.840 hit on by, you know, a, a young starlet.

00:27:28.900 But that's his character.

00:27:30.800 Oh.

00:27:31.500 They figure Donald should be able to pull this off.

00:27:35.340 So the bus is pulling in and the cameraman, okay, wait, the cameraman, get off the bus.

00:27:40.480 We got to go down to the end so we can catch your arrival.

00:27:43.200 So the cameraman get off and they run 300 yards ahead while the bus is waiting, stopped,

00:27:49.820 waiting to, you know, for its, to film its approach.

00:27:53.220 Because the woman who he's going to be acting with is waiting and there's a,

00:27:56.760 there's a welcoming crew from Days of Our Lives, they're all waiting.

00:27:59.560 And this is the arrival shot.

00:28:01.080 So the cameraman gets off.

00:28:02.460 He never stops recording.

00:28:05.300 They never.

00:28:05.720 So we're still, we're still sitting on the bus with the microphones.

00:28:09.180 And he gets off, but they, but it's, the red light is still on.

00:28:12.880 So the audio is still recording as the cameraman's, you know, runs away.

00:28:17.000 Can't imagine worse luck, right?

00:28:18.560 But who cares?

00:28:19.300 It's just Donald Trump from The Apprentice.

00:28:21.500 And you're just doing this silly little thing.

00:28:23.600 This is 2005 and we're doing this silly arrival shot.

00:28:26.400 Well, the Donald at that point, while we're waiting, you know, he gets into his, what he

00:28:30.520 likes to talk about, you know, and you don't, you don't choose the agenda with Donald Trump.

00:28:36.020 He talks at you.

00:28:38.360 And, you know, he started by talking about my co-host, Nancy O'Dell.

00:28:47.080 And, uh, and he, you know, she's so hot.

00:28:52.160 What happened at that?

00:28:53.440 I handled that beautifully.

00:28:55.240 And he keeps going.

00:28:56.540 I'm sorry.

00:28:57.180 I'm just too amused.

00:28:58.460 He just starts talking and talking and talking.

00:29:00.740 And, well, everybody knows what, what he talked about.

00:29:02.660 And then when we arrive to the shot, except for the end part, the most amazing thing about

00:29:09.240 the whole famous line that starts with grab.

00:29:12.760 Yeah.

00:29:13.120 I just can't even say it because it's never funny to me.

00:29:15.740 But, uh, the whole, the amazing part about all that is I have no recollection.

00:29:22.300 The first time I ever heard that was 2016.

00:29:26.660 Of course.

00:29:27.420 Days before they fired me.

00:29:28.660 Because I always remembered it for the personal connection, him talking about taking Nancy O'Dell

00:29:34.640 furniture shopping.

00:29:36.400 And I thought, oh my God, that is so funny.

00:29:38.860 Wait, why?

00:29:39.240 Like he took Nancy O'Dell furniture shopping because he was trying to hook up with her.

00:29:42.060 And he's like, here, let me, I'll buy you this coffee.

00:29:44.220 I'll buy you an armoire.

00:29:46.520 I was like, this is so absurd.

00:29:48.540 It's so funny.

00:29:49.020 God.

00:29:49.300 Do you think it was true?

00:29:50.080 But here's the amazing thing.

00:29:51.740 Oh yeah, definitely.

00:29:53.100 I got a hundred percent.

00:29:55.640 Uh, I got off the bus and oh, so the cameras are there.

00:30:00.540 We returned to filming and I'm like, Hey Donald, meet the person you're acting with.

00:30:04.500 And the whole thing lines up and looks like I'm feeding a wolf to this, you know, feeding

00:30:08.660 this lovely damsel to this wolf after what has just been said, but no one knows what's

00:30:13.680 just been said.

00:30:14.260 And I don't even recall hearing the thing.

00:30:16.680 Uh, I didn't hear that till 11 years later.

00:30:19.380 There's the whole, it's just a giant shit show.

00:30:21.700 Well, but also you work in LA in the middle of Hollywood.

00:30:24.960 Like you hear a lot of stuff every day.

00:30:27.660 I mean, I mean, Julia Roberts has said worse to me.

00:30:30.660 I mean, not really, but like, I mean, right.

00:30:32.580 I mean, I know the world and you were at the center of the world.

00:30:35.520 So like everyday people are saying things they wouldn't want to be on camera.

00:30:39.160 Right.

00:30:39.680 But you also have this, we worked in this incredibly on weird world where you have like 10, 15 minutes

00:30:46.880 in my case forever, uh, because it was a drive across town to really talk to someone before

00:30:53.840 you talk to someone.

00:30:54.840 Yes.

00:30:55.240 Right.

00:30:55.440 You and I chit chatted for 15 minutes before we turned these microphones on.

00:30:58.960 Just like, Hey, you know, what's going on?

00:31:00.800 Like how was the drive?

00:31:01.640 Yeah.

00:31:01.780 No, but I've known you for a long time, but that's, but if I, if you didn't know me,

00:31:05.420 you would have that time.

00:31:06.940 Always, always.

00:31:07.980 To establish a little rapport and you meet them where they are.

00:31:11.980 Yeah.

00:31:12.660 So, uh, and with him, you don't, you don't have a choice.

00:31:16.380 You know, it's never how the wife, how's the wife and kids.

00:31:19.020 It's, there's never that.

00:31:20.220 There's no one I did the other day.

00:31:23.060 Great shot over the bunker.

00:31:24.500 You can only hope it's a golf day.

00:31:25.740 Uh, but then listen, here's the, the amazing thing is after that happened, like, if you

00:31:32.460 want to look at, like, I reported it, I didn't report it.

00:31:36.120 Like he said terrible things on the bus.

00:31:38.180 This is awful.

00:31:39.300 I reported it to my, ran upstairs to my boss and I go, Oh my God.

00:31:43.500 Every time with Trump, it's something else.

00:31:45.780 The animal, you wouldn't believe what he did.

00:31:47.720 He tried to take Nancy O'Dell furniture shopping and so he could get laid.

00:31:52.240 I was like, this is crazy.

00:31:53.440 And I'm telling you, you're not going to believe this.

00:31:56.500 The next day that boss says, Oh no, I heard the whole thing.

00:32:00.660 What you told me yesterday, the guy was rolling.

00:32:04.040 I said, he rolled on the tape.

00:32:06.180 I said, well, you better do something with that tape.

00:32:09.600 And the reason I said that was for no, nothing that I did, nothing that I was ashamed of.

00:32:14.360 I don't care.

00:32:14.680 The reason was in 2005, Donald Trump was the biggest star on NBC, not news, on NBC, making

00:32:23.780 a hundred million dollars in profit a year for the network.

00:32:26.840 Had that tape leaked out in 2005, when it happened, heads would have rolled, including

00:32:34.080 mine, because you just completely tarnished our major cash cow.

00:32:39.160 But can I just ask, I mean, I've been around, you know, microphones and cameras my whole

00:32:44.740 life.

00:32:45.600 And my understanding to this day is you don't tape people without their knowledge.

00:32:50.320 In the state of California, it's, well, this is what's amazing.

00:32:53.960 So in 11 years later, NBC News themselves leaks that tape to the Washington Post.

00:33:01.400 Of that, there is no doubt.

00:33:02.420 They never launched an internal investment.

00:33:03.960 You have a proprietary piece of property that could affect a presidential election and it

00:33:08.220 gets out of your building to someone else.

00:33:11.000 You don't launch an investigation as to how that got out.

00:33:13.980 Like you've got to, you've got to find out how that got out.

00:33:16.940 Well, it would have ended in five seconds.

00:33:20.460 And it got shoved off to the Washington Post.

00:33:22.800 Well, I guess what I'm saying is it's unfair to tape people when they don't know they're

00:33:27.720 being taped.

00:33:28.740 It's also illegal.

00:33:29.640 In the state of California, if both people don't know, it's litigious.

00:33:32.200 That's why they gave it to the Washington Post.

00:33:34.580 You get the biggest story of the entire, the October surprise of all surprises.

00:33:39.640 You've got it in your hands and you leak it to someone else.

00:33:43.320 Why?

00:33:43.540 You're a giant news division.

00:33:44.960 This is so many clicks for you.

00:33:46.320 This is so much traffic.

00:33:47.440 Like, why wouldn't you own that?

00:33:50.620 Well, you can't because Donald is litigious, first of all.

00:33:55.460 And second of all, there's enough reason to believe there's no camera on the bus that

00:34:01.740 he didn't know he's being recorded.

00:34:02.660 But it's also wrong.

00:34:03.500 You shouldn't do that.

00:34:04.600 I mean, why is it different putting a camera in somebody's bedroom or the bathroom?

00:34:08.100 It's wrong.

00:34:08.660 It is wrong.

00:34:09.500 So that's what I fought all week long before I got fired.

00:34:12.620 Okay.

00:34:12.800 So, okay.

00:34:13.480 So, but let's get, it's actually more interesting story than I realized.

00:34:17.080 So this happens 2005 now, almost 20 years ago.

00:34:22.200 You tell your boss, he's seen the tape.

00:34:24.800 He has seen the off the bus, the bus portion of the tape when you talked to him.

00:34:29.220 He heard it that one day and told me, I never heard it.

00:34:32.080 He just said, oh yeah, the audio was on.

00:34:34.180 He told me, I heard the Nancy stuff.

00:34:35.920 He never mentioned anything about the word grab, but never came up.

00:34:39.860 Who was your boss?

00:34:41.000 Rob Silverstein.

00:34:42.100 Oh, yes.

00:34:43.440 Oh, yes.

00:34:44.700 But here's the crazy thing.

00:34:46.500 Executive producer of the show.

00:34:47.840 Executive producer of Access Hollywood.

00:34:49.560 But we'll get to how he's become the executive producer of my new show once again, how that's

00:34:54.280 come full circle.

00:34:55.100 What?

00:34:55.760 Forgiveness, Tucker.

00:34:56.780 It's an amazingly powerful thing.

00:34:58.740 You ought to try it.

00:34:59.940 You ought to try it.

00:35:01.220 He's working for me.

00:35:01.960 Don't think I didn't kick his teeth in.

00:35:03.940 Don't think we didn't fall out for two years.

00:35:06.220 Don't think I didn't take back the Rolex I gave him as a gift when I moved from the Peewees

00:35:12.340 to the big leagues.

00:35:13.240 When I got my big job at the Today Show, I had a party and I said, here you go, baby.

00:35:17.200 I'm giving you a Rolex.

00:35:18.320 Thanks for helping me get there.

00:35:20.620 Two months later, I said, you son of a bitch.

00:35:22.520 If I ever see you, I'm going to kill you and I'm going to give me that fucking Rolex

00:35:26.300 back.

00:35:27.840 And now he's your producer again.

00:35:29.080 Now he's my producer again.

00:35:30.020 Because you know what, we had so many, just sometimes you have, he's, I don't blame him

00:35:35.260 because he was looking to, he asked for permission.

00:35:38.940 When he sent the tape to NBC News, he was asking for permission to use it.

00:35:43.540 Wait, so, okay.

00:35:44.560 Let's just back up here because I know the story, but others don't.

00:35:49.080 So you, um, and Rob Silverstein was your friend too.

00:35:52.500 Not just your EP.

00:35:53.260 Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:35:54.640 So, um.

00:35:55.500 Spent the night together sharing a bed and during the blackout in New York in like 2012

00:36:00.240 or whatever it was.

00:36:01.400 Wow.

00:36:01.820 Because we had nowhere to, yeah, sweating next to this guy.

00:36:06.880 So, uh, that's the last you hear of this tape for 11 years until you get off the air,

00:36:14.780 if I'm following this correctly.

00:36:16.500 And Matt Lauer comes up to you and you're not thinking about the tape.

00:36:19.360 No one ever mentioned the tape again.

00:36:20.660 The tape is just like faded into the past.

00:36:22.240 Before that Monday, Rob Silverstein called me in New York and he just said, hey, just,

00:36:26.380 you know, NBC's asking him.

00:36:27.760 I remember the tape with Trump and the whole thing.

00:36:29.760 They like, they may want to like look at the, I, I, they're asking for a transcript.

00:36:33.860 I may send it to him because Trump said some crazy things.

00:36:36.420 You, don't worry about you.

00:36:37.580 You, you, you, you don't do anything on it.

00:36:39.540 You don't even say a thing.

00:36:41.580 I say, okay, uh, whatever.

00:36:44.080 It doesn't mean anything.

00:36:45.060 Then the next day, he says, I'll call you if anything happens.

00:36:49.300 Well, I never got a call from him.

00:36:50.540 The next thing I hear about it is it's in Lack's hands.

00:36:54.080 Andy Lack, the chairman of NBC News has it.

00:36:56.900 And Kim, whatever her name is, the, the legal counsel, the lawyer, she's on it.

00:37:01.580 And Lauer says, you, you should probably go see Andy Lack, you know, before this thing,

00:37:07.900 they have it.

00:37:08.700 And I was like, oh, oh my God.

00:37:12.240 Okay.

00:37:12.820 So I went, left the studio, went across up to Andy Lack's office and Noah was there.

00:37:18.500 And I said, Hey, Noah, what's going on?

00:37:20.500 And he said, yes, we got this tape.

00:37:22.360 I said, listen, I've never, I don't know what tape.

00:37:24.200 Like I know what about the tape.

00:37:26.420 I just, but I've never heard it.

00:37:28.860 Like I've, so he played it for me and I will never forget sitting in Noah Oppenheim's office,

00:37:35.140 the president, the general manager of the Today Show, as he played the part.

00:37:38.780 And when it got to the grab line, Noah laughed.

00:37:41.580 I met who's in the room.

00:37:43.080 He laughed.

00:37:44.640 Oh, and I guess I got fired for laughing, but there he is laughing.

00:37:47.600 Cause when you hear something that absurd, what do you do?

00:37:51.880 You laugh.

00:37:52.400 Mostly laugh.

00:37:53.100 It's like a nervous laugh.

00:37:54.420 It's a, you know, I've never heard anyone say what he said.

00:37:59.100 I was like, this can't be real, obviously.

00:38:00.720 So I'm going to laugh.

00:38:04.780 But I don't recall it.

00:38:06.220 So it's just the first time I ever heard it was, was that day.

00:38:09.120 And I went, oh dear.

00:38:10.200 And then I watched the tape and I saw the arrival and the greeting.

00:38:13.060 And I said, oh my God, the optics of this are just horrible.

00:38:16.460 I'm the first to admit this looks terrible.

00:38:20.600 And what happened in the ensuing days was, hey, what do you want to do about this, Billy?

00:38:28.760 And I said, what do you want to do?

00:38:30.440 I said, what do I, that's crazy.

00:38:31.720 This is from Andy Lack, the chairman of NBC News, who was the only person in the world

00:38:35.500 I'd hit with a tire iron if he was sitting right here.

00:38:39.240 And Noah, I wouldn't, I've forgiven Noah.

00:38:41.620 Andy, tire iron.

00:38:43.060 Um, I, truth.

00:38:47.620 Uh, but in the ensuing days, it was all, what do you want to do?

00:38:53.240 Uh, we could do something with this.

00:38:55.460 You know, these things, I remember this quote, these things have a way of getting out.

00:39:00.020 That's what Noah said to me.

00:39:01.300 And I'm like, no, they don't.

00:39:02.180 You can't.

00:39:02.660 Listen, what if, if I become the guy who's preamble before interviews gets used, that

00:39:10.500 celebrity, that whoever that public figure is, is never going to talk to me.

00:39:13.800 I'm going to be the guy that no one wants to talk to.

00:39:15.540 Don't talk to Billy Bush before the interview.

00:39:18.180 The cameras are rolling because he's probably secretly rolling.

00:39:21.140 It's journalism 101.

00:39:23.140 And no one came to my defense on it, of course, because they're all, it was such a hot time.

00:39:27.840 Everybody was just, you know, their, their, their heads were in the sand.

00:39:31.740 But that whole week was, what do you want to do?

00:39:35.800 And I said, you can't use this.

00:39:37.420 It's illegal to do that to him, to anyone.

00:39:40.860 I wasn't defending Trump.

00:39:42.060 I'm defending my reputation as a journalist and someone who wants to interview other people

00:39:46.680 in the future.

00:39:47.400 And just basic fairness.

00:39:49.020 Yeah.

00:39:49.260 Um, and also, by the way, you were paid to interview Trump and to do this set piece

00:39:54.900 within the scene with him.

00:39:56.760 That was your job.

00:39:57.980 Like you didn't, it's not like you and Trump were like in a bar or something.

00:40:01.000 It was like this, you were, you were working for the same company.

00:40:04.160 It was a primary job for me then.

00:40:06.300 Remember this, the apprentice was the biggest thing on TV and Trump, every other celebrity

00:40:10.700 had a publicist that followed them around and said, you can't say this, you can't do

00:40:13.980 that.

00:40:14.200 You can't use this.

00:40:15.420 Um, you know, they'd try to shape your message.

00:40:18.400 Trump's publicist literally just carried like a bag for him because Trump is going to

00:40:23.040 do what Trump's going to want to do.

00:40:25.020 He doesn't care.

00:40:26.360 So he was a soundbite machine.

00:40:28.500 I was with him three days a week.

00:40:29.820 And when I wasn't with him, I bought my boss would say, how do you get the next thing

00:40:34.900 with Trump?

00:40:35.280 We got to Trump's, we need him for, we need him every day if we can have him because he's

00:40:41.280 saying things like, remember how the horrible stuff he said about Rosie, but every entertainment

00:40:46.720 show couldn't wait to run that as a headline.

00:40:48.560 Of course.

00:40:49.300 Right.

00:40:49.460 No one does this except Trump.

00:40:53.060 How was he's gold for ratings?

00:40:54.760 He's unbelievable.

00:40:56.060 Um, in fact, he's helped.

00:40:57.600 So I was constantly tasked with how to get on his plane, get into his apartment, go on

00:41:02.900 a house tour with him.

00:41:04.160 Uh, one of the great things I did with Donald Trump, still available online.

00:41:07.820 Check it out.

00:41:08.880 We went voting together in 2004, Bush carry and we went voting together and it was, we

00:41:15.500 went to four different polling places and he wasn't registered at any of them.

00:41:19.000 It was hysterical and he kept getting furious.

00:41:22.400 Uh, so I just did all these things and.

00:41:26.180 Did you have fun?

00:41:27.040 It was part of my job.

00:41:27.920 Like I got promoted.

00:41:28.760 I ultimately became the host of the show because of the amazing things I did with Donald Trump.

00:41:33.120 I dressed up in, in disguise and snuck into the season two auditions of, of The Apprentice

00:41:41.700 and I auditioned as a mustache and I had a cowboy hat on.

00:41:45.180 I called myself Richard Broom and I made my way over to a table.

00:41:49.000 And Donald was sitting at the table and I sat down with eight other strangers and as

00:41:53.760 he asked questions of everybody, see if they'd be a part of the cast.

00:41:57.480 No way.

00:41:58.000 And he looks at me and he goes, you're a weird looking fellow.

00:42:02.720 He's take off your hat.

00:42:03.960 I took it off.

00:42:04.500 He goes, if I don't know, that's Billy Bush.

00:42:06.280 I don't know.

00:42:06.660 We had a huge laugh.

00:42:07.880 I mean, let me tell you something.

00:42:09.840 Donald Trump was the greatest reality television host ever, ever, ever.

00:42:16.320 He was, especially for our show and for that, that show began as something else.

00:42:22.160 And it turned out, you know what?

00:42:23.460 Why don't we start doing 15 minutes of the boardroom at the end?

00:42:26.900 Let's do 15 minutes of stupid lemonade sales and then 55 minutes or 45 minutes of the boardroom

00:42:33.240 at the end.

00:42:34.500 Because that's what people really want to see.

00:42:36.280 Because of the drama.

00:42:37.340 The drama.

00:42:38.420 Trump going, look, Brandy, I can't believe it.

00:42:40.140 You look like, can you believe what Sarah said about you?

00:42:42.360 It's terrible.

00:42:42.980 She shouldn't say that about you.

00:42:44.280 Sarah, you look like a nice person.

00:42:45.620 Why would you do that to Brandy?

00:42:46.700 And he would just pit these fights, right?

00:42:48.420 And people loved it.

00:42:50.320 Yeah.

00:42:51.380 Amazing.

00:42:52.200 Amazing.

00:42:52.880 It was five years ago this month that people started to drop dead in the central Chinese

00:42:57.080 city of Wuhan.

00:42:58.680 Five years since the beginning of COVID.

00:43:00.980 Tens of millions dead.

00:43:02.660 Societies reordered completely.

00:43:05.120 Economies destroyed.

00:43:06.280 And yet, for some reason, we still don't know answers to the most basic questions.

00:43:10.740 Where did this virus come from?

00:43:12.140 How did it get here?

00:43:13.340 Why did the government tell us to do things they knew wouldn't work?

00:43:16.960 None of those questions have been adequately answered.

00:43:19.100 And one man knows those answers.

00:43:21.100 His name is Dr. Tony Fauci.

00:43:22.840 Until now, nobody has really pressed.

00:43:25.920 And now, a documentary filmmaker called Jenner First is out with a new film explaining exactly

00:43:32.300 what happened.

00:43:32.960 The film was called Thank You, Dr. Fauci.

00:43:35.320 Jenner First spent years trying to get answers.

00:43:37.500 And in that time, as he awaited Dr. Fauci's response, he went through tens of thousands of

00:43:42.100 pages of documents and pieced together the story, which is shocking.

00:43:45.720 We are proud to host that documentary here on TCN from December 20th to January 19th.

00:43:51.180 You will see it exclusively here on TCN.

00:43:53.480 Again, it's called Thank You, Dr. Fauci.

00:43:56.080 And it's worth it.

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00:45:09.080 How was he regarded at NBC?

00:45:11.340 Oh, he was...

00:45:12.980 This is a story that'll blow your mind.

00:45:15.280 My brother is a great healthcare executive.

00:45:18.440 Yes.

00:45:18.660 Built a company called Athena Health.

00:45:20.620 The chairman of his board at one point became Jeff Immelt, who became the chairman of my

00:45:28.680 brother's board.

00:45:29.200 My brother reported to him.

00:45:30.720 From GE.

00:45:31.120 As the CEO.

00:45:31.780 Yeah.

00:45:32.180 And from GE.

00:45:32.880 And GE, you know, owned NBC long before when The Apprentice was just coming on.

00:45:39.180 And Donald wanted his contract renegotiated.

00:45:41.680 And he'd demand, forget Jeff Zucker and the NBC people.

00:45:44.920 I want Immelt to do this with me.

00:45:47.180 I want the CEO of GE to do my second year deal.

00:45:52.020 And Immelt told my brother, he's like, you know, if there were cameras at that lunch or a little hidden microphone at that lunch, I guess I would have been fired.

00:46:00.880 Because you just go with what Trump wants to go with.

00:46:03.760 Yeah.

00:46:04.200 And they were similar.

00:46:07.480 Yeah.

00:46:07.920 I mean, you know what I mean?

00:46:08.720 Because here's one thing about Trump.

00:46:10.260 He is.

00:46:10.920 His loyalty isn't long.

00:46:14.080 If you, like, if I were to say to him, hey, how dare you talk like that?

00:46:17.640 Like, I'm not going to be on this bus.

00:46:19.240 You shouldn't say such terrible things.

00:46:21.140 I will.

00:46:21.580 I'm leaving.

00:46:22.360 And I took a moral stand and walked out or whatever I did.

00:46:25.820 Get rid of Billy Bush.

00:46:26.840 We don't like him.

00:46:27.380 We're doing entertainment tonight only now.

00:46:29.040 That's it.

00:46:29.780 And then you're done.

00:46:31.120 So literally my job, hired to, was to make sure we had him as often as possible and get great sound bites and kick ass.

00:46:38.400 Did you ever hear any NBC executives complain about him?

00:46:42.060 Or his politics?

00:46:43.320 No.

00:46:43.620 But I do know that, look, he was placated as every big star of every big show in the business is all the way up to the, you know, ivory tower.

00:46:53.540 A hundred percent.

00:46:54.720 From Jeff Zucker to Jeff Immelt.

00:46:57.420 The whole, you know, here's a beautiful irony.

00:47:00.140 Jeff Zucker, who I like, was running the show at NBC Entertainment.

00:47:05.700 He's the one who put, he built this, if Trump is Frankenstein, he built him in the laboratory.

00:47:12.060 And they built this apprentice and they made him the wheeling and dealing machine on his helicopter, this incredible image.

00:47:18.580 Can you imagine a better image on network television crafted for you than that one?

00:47:24.520 And Zucker then became, years later, the head of the resistance.

00:47:30.440 The guy that built him then became the head of the resistance at CNN.

00:47:34.780 It's amazing.

00:47:35.240 It's amazing.

00:47:36.300 In a matter of 10 years.

00:47:37.760 Like this recording of this bus tape that was a, I would have been fired.

00:47:42.320 It had leaked out then for hurting the star.

00:47:45.820 Eleven years later and a lawsuit over Miss Universe and whatever else.

00:47:49.500 NBC feels completely differently about Donald Trump.

00:47:51.840 And now it's get him at all costs.

00:47:53.600 Get him out of this presidential race at all costs.

00:47:58.300 I don't care who we have to kill or shoot in the head on the way, including Billy Bush.

00:48:03.660 No problem.

00:48:05.580 Get rid of him.

00:48:06.640 So that's, it's an incredible, it's an, there was so much going on during that period that it, it, you know, of course the, the tape and that one phrase still kind of hangs in the air.

00:48:17.580 But the, but the actual story never really got cold, told there was too much chaos going on.

00:48:23.040 No, it's never been told.

00:48:23.860 It was like the opening salvas of a war and like an atrocity was left unexamined.

00:48:28.320 No, and I look, I was a sitting duck, right?

00:48:30.400 It was a hot time.

00:48:31.520 People were feeling really strongly, you know, as they, as they still are.

00:48:36.220 Trump is, it's like country music, love him or hate him, right?

00:48:40.060 I mean.

00:48:40.780 So what was that?

00:48:41.860 Did you, okay, so you move over and that just to be, I just want to say this for the third time.

00:48:46.400 That tape, after you spoke to Rob about it, to your EP about it, the next day was never mentioned again for 11 years.

00:48:58.020 No, never mentioned again.

00:48:59.840 It was, no, intermittently over the years, you'd be like, God, that reminds me, remember the time that Trump told me about that?

00:49:06.120 But it was always about Nancy O'Dell, maybe every three years or something.

00:49:09.760 Right, right.

00:49:10.340 Maybe five times total between 2005 and 2016.

00:49:14.740 But Nancy O'Dell part has been lost in history.

00:49:15.880 But always as a reference, because Trump said something that reminded me of the whole thing.

00:49:21.000 Was Trump political, by the way?

00:49:22.620 Was he regarded as political when he was the host of The Apprentice?

00:49:25.600 No.

00:49:26.500 God, no.

00:49:27.460 No.

00:49:28.560 Not at all.

00:49:28.980 The idea that this, if you want to talk about just bad luck in general, the idea that Donald Trump in 2005 would one day run for president, and he's talked about it forever, but he would do it to just mix things up.

00:49:40.580 But he called me right before he announced and said, I'm going to announce, and I laughed.

00:49:46.220 Yeah.

00:49:46.520 Because I'd known him all these years, and I thought of Trump as a person who was not serious about politics, who was going to use it to sell a book or promote a show or whatever.

00:49:56.160 Or reboot the image after The Apprentice had run its course.

00:49:58.960 That's right.

00:49:59.260 It was very successful.

00:49:59.720 So I literally laughed at him when he called me.

00:50:02.120 I was in the car.

00:50:02.540 I'll never forget it.

00:50:03.460 Yeah.

00:50:03.880 And he was totally calm, and he said, yep, I see what you're saying, but I think this time I'm going to surprise you.

00:50:09.220 And he sounded totally different.

00:50:10.880 But I agree with you.

00:50:11.700 You knew him much better than I did.

00:50:12.520 When he came down the escalator, I said, oh, my God, this is going to be unbelievable.

00:50:16.760 This is going to, he's going to, he's having so much fun.

00:50:19.680 Exactly.

00:50:20.280 This is a joke.

00:50:21.260 He's having fun.

00:50:22.540 And all of a sudden, everything he said that people didn't like, he got more popular.

00:50:29.060 And he's like, what?

00:50:30.340 I don't even think he, he, he was surprised more than anyone.

00:50:33.160 Like, wait a minute.

00:50:34.380 They like me more?

00:50:36.220 Okay.

00:50:37.500 And he just steamrolled everybody.

00:50:39.540 So, wow, man, it's also, it's also amazing in retrospect.

00:50:44.100 But did he, and all the time you spent with him, did he ever say anything you thought was political at all?

00:50:50.340 No.

00:50:51.020 Yeah.

00:50:51.580 Interesting.

00:50:52.080 Never.

00:50:53.100 No, he was, it was, it was not, not a chance.

00:50:57.260 We went voting in 2004, the beginning of The Apprentice.

00:51:03.640 And he, I remember him laughing.

00:51:08.300 I said, have you endorsed one of the, I mean, have you given money to one of the candidates?

00:51:13.380 Are you behind one of them?

00:51:14.320 He goes, I am.

00:51:16.600 I said, which one?

00:51:17.620 He goes, I can't do that.

00:51:18.700 I said, is there a chance that it's both of them?

00:51:21.200 And he said, there is.

00:51:22.560 Like, he had given money to both guys.

00:51:25.260 You're my guy.

00:51:26.060 Here's a check.

00:51:26.920 You're my guy.

00:51:27.740 Here's a check.

00:51:28.420 Remember, Trump was open about that back in the day.

00:51:30.580 He was like, look, I needed to build, I wanted my businesses to thrive.

00:51:33.780 So I played nice with everybody on both sides.

00:51:36.320 Remember his wedding in 2005 with Melania.

00:51:39.380 There's Bill and Hillary Clinton.

00:51:40.800 And, you know, everyone's there kissing the ring.

00:51:44.400 Amazing.

00:51:45.560 Yeah.

00:51:46.460 Okay.

00:51:47.020 So you go up to Andy Lack's office.

00:51:49.600 Noah Oppenheim is sitting there.

00:51:50.700 You screen the tape.

00:51:52.540 And they say to you, Billy, what do you want to do about this?

00:51:55.620 Yeah, what do you want to do about this?

00:51:56.560 Like, do you want to get out?

00:51:57.260 It's your problem.

00:51:58.360 I mean, I could have done what the little minion who wants to save his butt.

00:52:05.220 And I might have, if I had been, if I wasn't so stupid or I didn't get what they were saying.

00:52:10.820 In other words, they're saying, do you want to get out in front of it?

00:52:12.880 What if I had taken that tape and the most disingenuous little save my own ass move, I get on the air and I say, okay, look.

00:52:23.220 Yeah, I know this was recorded, you know, before the interview and it was off camera.

00:52:27.080 It's an off mic thing and the whole thing.

00:52:28.700 And, you know, don't read into how bad that is as a journalist to be doing this.

00:52:33.180 But because this is such a serious election and in the interest of all information and candor, I want to present this.

00:52:43.040 And I want you, the American people, to hear this because you're about to vote on the president of the United States.

00:52:48.180 You should know this.

00:52:49.040 And so it's just, these are extenuating circumstances.

00:52:52.460 And here I go.

00:52:53.580 And I don't look good on this tape because I have to greet this, do this greeting at the end and it looks bad.

00:52:58.260 And, you know, but I really, it's important to me to do this.

00:53:01.780 And then I put it out there for people.

00:53:04.120 I might have been the, wow, Billy Bush is courageous by the media establishment.

00:53:09.260 What a courageous guy.

00:53:10.540 He had to do that.

00:53:11.380 We'll give him a pass because, look, he brought forward this beautiful thing that will take out the enemy.

00:53:17.120 Screwing Trump.

00:53:17.860 Because he's screwing Trump.

00:53:19.200 And in the end, this is the very beginning of Trump derangement syndrome.

00:53:23.100 No matter what, screwing Trump is paramount above everything else.

00:53:28.220 Yes.

00:53:28.560 So I would have gotten the pass from the media and maybe still, you know, take a little vacation, but be back still at the Today Show making lots and lots of money for, you know.

00:53:39.240 But I said, no, no, it's wrong.

00:53:42.600 I can't have people look at me that I've got to be, I'm not the guy that's doing that to anyone.

00:53:49.580 Yeah.

00:53:49.820 I know the stakes and I know how you want this election to turn out.

00:53:53.320 I know how you want it to turn out, but I can't do that.

00:53:56.340 I wouldn't do it to anyone.

00:53:58.500 And they said, okay, we understand.

00:54:01.940 And then they tried to get Access Hollywood.

00:54:04.840 Okay, why don't you guys do a little version of this and put it on?

00:54:08.340 And then I made a huge mistake.

00:54:09.980 And I said to my executive producer, I said, Trump didn't know that this was on.

00:54:15.440 Any other guest would not.

00:54:16.460 I have no protectionism of Trump.

00:54:18.100 I don't, you know, whatever.

00:54:21.380 It's just wrong.

00:54:22.460 And they're setting you up.

00:54:24.020 You're going to become the fall guy.

00:54:25.280 Trump's going to sue NBC for putting this thing out there because he didn't know he was being recorded.

00:54:30.100 And you're the fall guy, you dummy.

00:54:32.060 And they're going to fire you.

00:54:33.560 And he went, oh my God, you're right.

00:54:35.320 So he called back Andy Lack and he said, no, I'm not putting it on Access Hollywood tonight.

00:54:40.160 That was a Friday night.

00:54:42.620 No, Thursday night.

00:54:45.080 Remember that Sunday, the 9th, was the second presidential debate between Hillary Clinton.

00:54:51.420 They needed this out there before the debate.

00:54:53.640 So Anderson Cooper's first question could be about this, about sexual assault and Donald Trump perpetrating it.

00:55:01.800 This is insane.

00:55:02.760 So wait, hold on.

00:55:03.720 A little background, context.

00:55:05.720 You said this was the beginning of Trump derangement syndrome.

00:55:08.340 Did you sense that at NBC?

00:55:09.920 Oh God, absolutely.

00:55:11.920 I mean, anything.

00:55:13.780 Remember this, over at ABC News, they did, at the same time, when Trump became president,

00:55:19.260 they launched a 70, they built a 75-person investigative unit.

00:55:25.160 I know the guy who was head of it, dedicated to anything negative on Trump.

00:55:30.940 Find stuff on him and get him out.

00:55:33.860 This is not journalism.

00:55:36.300 This is not news.

00:55:37.420 It is activism.

00:55:39.920 That's crazy.

00:55:40.260 When you're calling journalism, it's total activism.

00:55:44.240 What do you think that was?

00:55:45.600 All the major networks.

00:55:46.460 That's why, by the way, when NBC does the shitty thing that they did, ABC and CBS don't call it out.

00:55:52.040 They don't say, you know, hey, you're competing with each other.

00:55:55.860 I would want to pound my competitor.

00:55:57.420 Yeah.

00:55:57.640 Like, look what you did.

00:55:58.600 That was dirty.

00:55:59.680 Because all of them would have done it too, probably.

00:56:01.700 You know what I mean?

00:56:02.020 What do you think?

00:56:02.440 They all shared that mission.

00:56:03.540 I mean, you know, even at the, you know, channel I worked at, which was the one conservative channel,

00:56:10.960 you know, a lot of people hated Trump, really, really hated Trump.

00:56:13.900 But you were in such an interesting spot because you knew him so well for so many years in a totally different.

00:56:20.780 I hosted eight pageants for him all over the world.

00:56:24.260 I went with the Donald to Ecuador, to Bangkok, to Panama, as we take back the canal.

00:56:32.940 I was with him all the time.

00:56:34.540 I flew on his plane and hosted the Paley Center panel on this incredible phenomenon, The Apprentice.

00:56:40.780 And I, you know, Donald said, you can fly with me.

00:56:42.920 And if we flew on the plane, I'd never seen Donald without a tie on.

00:56:45.860 It was this time.

00:56:46.440 He rolled up sleeves, buttons, you know, the white shirt, unbuttoned, no tie.

00:56:51.580 It was incredible.

00:56:52.480 Never have I seen that.

00:56:54.900 I didn't know what to make of it.

00:56:56.080 I was like, he's so relaxed.

00:56:57.180 This is weird.

00:56:59.480 But he hung out and we told stories.

00:57:01.120 I had spent more time with him.

00:57:03.700 I still think I've spent more time with him on camera than anyone.

00:57:07.800 I bet that's right.

00:57:08.620 Oh, for sure.

00:57:09.760 And I've spent a lot of time with Trump and I'll just say it.

00:57:13.300 I've enjoyed pretty much all of it.

00:57:15.220 Fun guy to be with.

00:57:15.940 Wildly entertaining.

00:57:17.080 Wildly.

00:57:17.680 Wildly entertaining.

00:57:18.880 And I have to tell you, one of the funniest people I have ever.

00:57:22.080 Yes.

00:57:22.840 The laughter that I, splitting my sides laughing at the things he would say.

00:57:28.140 And some of it's because it's almost like a caricature, you know, the third person speak

00:57:32.840 and all that.

00:57:33.240 It's just, it's wildly funny.

00:57:35.040 So you don't really take much of it seriously.

00:57:38.500 You know, when he said what he said at the end of the tape there that I never for one

00:57:45.660 second thought that that was a serious thing.

00:57:48.600 I mean, who would say that?

00:57:50.600 And I just, but you just laugh.

00:57:53.360 Yeah.

00:57:53.720 The funniest.

00:57:54.520 I agree.

00:57:54.960 The funniest.

00:57:55.760 The funniest.

00:57:57.240 I once took someone, I went to dinner with him and I brought someone who was, you know,

00:58:01.660 politically on his side, I think, but was like, really Donald Trump?

00:58:05.200 And at the end of the meal, this is where I got in the car with the person who goes,

00:58:08.540 that's the greatest dinner I've ever had.

00:58:09.920 I've never had a dinner like that in my life.

00:58:14.460 Anyway.

00:58:14.820 But so given the fact, I think you actually have spent way more time on camera than anyone

00:58:19.940 in the world with Donald Trump.

00:58:21.740 So it just puts you, but again, as you've said, not in any kind of political context.

00:58:26.960 So now you're working on the Today Show, biggest, biggest news show in the country.

00:58:32.040 And they put out an APB to all properties, find us something that show, because a woman

00:58:40.100 who was a Miss Universe contestant, this is early end of September, had come forward and

00:58:45.500 said he was disparaging towards me.

00:58:48.000 And Trump said, I've never been disparaging towards a woman in my life.

00:58:51.600 I've never done anything like that.

00:58:52.660 So then NBC said, okay, find something of, look at all your tapes, everybody, every division

00:59:00.180 of anything he might've said disparaging about a woman so we can prove him wrong.

00:59:04.300 Ha, we gotcha.

00:59:06.280 And then Rob Silverstein, my executive producer at Act, was like, oh, wait a minute.

00:59:11.160 That tape that's collecting dust in my thing.

00:59:13.580 He said something about Nancy O'Dell that was disparaging.

00:59:16.360 Remember, this has always been about Nancy O'Dell.

00:59:18.860 And so he takes the tape out and he's like, then he calls NBC.

00:59:22.660 To say, hey, I may have something.

00:59:25.400 I could use it.

00:59:26.380 I'm not sure.

00:59:27.620 I need your legal approval because although a very small division, it's a division of

00:59:33.380 NBC News, Access Hollywood.

00:59:35.980 So I need legal permission here.

00:59:38.280 I don't want to go out there because I don't think he knows he's being recorded.

00:59:40.880 I need a blessing.

00:59:42.260 And then they sent it.

00:59:43.140 And from there they said, okay, we'll take it from here.

00:59:45.320 Thank you so much.

00:59:46.020 What do you think that was?

00:59:46.800 Why?

00:59:47.300 I mean, it's just so especially strange for NBC, which, as you've said a couple of times,

00:59:52.080 was a recipient of, like, all this profit and $100 million a year from this show.

00:59:58.180 So, like, they love Trump, but they pivot so fast to hating Trump obsessively.

01:00:03.060 Why?

01:00:04.400 Well, 11 years, a lot can happen.

01:00:06.200 Unlike the bitter negotiations over the Miss Universe pageant and the fallout and lawsuits

01:00:11.440 and countersuits.

01:00:12.400 And, you know, he, after he left The Apprentice, they replaced him at one point with, you know,

01:00:20.400 they tried to replace him with Arnold Schwarzenegger and he denigrated them.

01:00:25.980 Schwarzenegger's terrible.

01:00:26.960 Those two hated each other.

01:00:27.880 They fought, you know, Trump's a street fan.

01:00:31.720 He's the king of the concrete jungle.

01:00:33.660 Yeah.

01:00:33.980 You know?

01:00:34.440 And so he's like, once The Apprentice had died, he blamed them for it.

01:00:38.620 And, you know, he fights dirty.

01:00:41.380 And they, you know, and I think they had, you know, that big lawsuit over Miss Universe

01:00:46.820 kind of bummed them out.

01:00:48.820 And they ended up hating each other.

01:00:51.180 It happens.

01:00:52.200 Oh, yes.

01:00:52.860 And some of, you know, and so a falling out.

01:00:58.040 And then when he decides to run later, now it's like, get him at all costs.

01:01:02.800 And they want Hillary.

01:01:06.300 They just.

01:01:07.200 Yeah, they want Hillary, but you didn't see that.

01:01:11.120 But with such vitriol for Trump.

01:01:13.320 Yeah, it was great.

01:01:14.100 And it wasn't just NBC.

01:01:15.100 It was everybody.

01:01:15.880 But it was everybody.

01:01:16.740 Like what?

01:01:17.200 But looking back eight years later, any idea why?

01:01:20.280 It's not like Trump is super right wing or anything.

01:01:22.380 Well, back in the day, look, I'm going to confess myself.

01:01:24.720 I said, listen, I spent a lot of time with Trump.

01:01:26.460 He'd be a terrible president.

01:01:27.620 This is a crazy idea.

01:01:29.280 This is.

01:01:30.100 And I said that on the air in 2015 on my live daytime show.

01:01:36.300 I said, as a man who has spent probably the most amount of time, this is a terrible idea.

01:01:41.880 Now, to be clear, you know, I'm the nephew of George H.W. Bush.

01:01:45.840 You know, this is.

01:01:47.580 He was a real.

01:01:49.940 Steward and by the book sort of guy and felt, you know, he was a character first, all these things.

01:01:57.320 Trump was something we'd never seen.

01:01:58.640 Well, and also he was he was since you brought it up.

01:02:00.620 He was running against your cousin.

01:02:02.320 And he's running against Jeb.

01:02:03.280 Low energy Jeb.

01:02:04.600 Yeah.

01:02:04.900 That's what he called him.

01:02:05.620 So this puts you in like the weirdest position of anybody in the media.

01:02:09.420 Yeah.

01:02:10.660 Yeah.

01:02:11.040 When he started saying the low energy thing, I was like, oh, man, really, Donald?

01:02:14.840 Jesus.

01:02:15.960 You're so brutal.

01:02:17.180 But God, that works, doesn't it?

01:02:20.140 What people misjudged was they were sick of everything that the way things had been done and that he knew that.

01:02:29.020 And that's why Trump is smart, just because he he knows where people are and he met them there.

01:02:36.120 So, you know, genius in that regard.

01:02:43.160 Amazing.

01:02:43.860 Amazing story.

01:02:44.560 And you're I hadn't really this whole time we're having a conversation.

01:02:47.420 And I sort of forgot that it's so much.

01:02:49.520 There's so many crazy, unbelievable details.

01:02:52.020 Right.

01:02:52.840 But at the end of the day.

01:02:55.440 I think it's been handled.

01:02:57.040 I think it's like they have had.

01:02:59.920 A moment with their conscience.

01:03:02.440 And realized you can't do this.

01:03:04.260 This is a part of the recording.

01:03:06.120 Nobody knew was being recorded.

01:03:07.560 You can't do that to someone.

01:03:08.660 You can't do it to me as a journalist to, you know, out somebody like that.

01:03:12.940 And you can't do it to someone like Donald who's going to sue you.

01:03:16.380 So it's dead.

01:03:17.200 And they think, OK.

01:03:18.980 And as soon as Access Hollywood said they're not doing it either.

01:03:21.940 We're not touching this.

01:03:23.460 NBC didn't want to touch it.

01:03:25.680 They knew that Trump would sue them.

01:03:28.140 They slid it to the Washington Post.

01:03:30.120 How'd they do that?

01:03:30.780 I'm on a plane.

01:03:31.680 I'm on a plane that Friday, two days before the debate.

01:03:36.900 I'm going home to Los Angeles to see my family.

01:03:39.680 And right before the wheels go up, I look at my phone one last time and bang, there's

01:03:45.140 the story in the Washington Post.

01:03:46.560 And I go, oh, my God.

01:03:48.400 And the next week is the most chaotic week.

01:03:50.980 Did you have cell service on the plane?

01:03:52.780 I got Wi-Fi 15 minutes later and I had a million messages from Noah.

01:03:57.840 You're going to be fine.

01:03:58.580 You're OK.

01:03:59.000 Don't worry.

01:03:59.420 We'll take care of you.

01:04:00.540 The head of communications at NBC, don't worry.

01:04:02.740 You didn't do anything.

01:04:03.840 You did nothing.

01:04:05.100 We've got you.

01:04:05.920 Don't worry.

01:04:06.720 We've got you.

01:04:08.000 Security will be waiting for you at LAX.

01:04:10.100 We have a car.

01:04:10.840 A security guy will take you to the car.

01:04:12.420 A car will take you home.

01:04:13.720 Don't worry.

01:04:14.360 We've got you.

01:04:15.020 We've got you.

01:04:15.840 Next day, we've got you.

01:04:17.060 We've got you.

01:04:17.600 Did your wife text you on the plane?

01:04:20.600 My wife texted me and we had a dinner at our friend's house that night.

01:04:24.920 And they're like, hey, are we still on?

01:04:26.240 And I'm like, yeah, of course.

01:04:27.200 What do you mean are we on?

01:04:27.920 They're like, this is sort of big, I think.

01:04:30.440 I mean, it's kind of huge.

01:04:31.660 It's kind of everywhere.

01:04:32.420 And I'm like, no, no, they got me.

01:04:33.720 We're good.

01:04:34.300 They got me.

01:04:35.160 Because I didn't do anything.

01:04:36.540 They got me.

01:04:37.600 We land.

01:04:39.260 TMZ.

01:04:40.180 Paparazzi.

01:04:40.720 I get home.

01:04:41.540 The next day, I buy $5,000 worth of new suits.

01:04:45.100 Because as much as they pay you on the Today Show, they don't buy you clothing.

01:04:48.640 And I'm like, I got to get some new suits.

01:04:50.900 I mean, I got a fancy new job.

01:04:52.740 I'm an important little guy.

01:04:53.820 This is great.

01:04:54.740 I buy a bunch of suits.

01:04:56.000 I have someone tailoring them in my living room.

01:04:57.860 I'm doing all this.

01:04:59.220 The next day, Sunday, I go out and there's a car and driver in the driveway.

01:05:04.900 And as I'm about to open the door with my bags, the driver says, hey, they just canceled the car.

01:05:11.380 I said, what?

01:05:11.920 It's got to be a mistake.

01:05:12.980 What are you talking about?

01:05:14.440 No, they canceled the car.

01:05:15.400 And I'm like, oh, God.

01:05:18.080 I called my lawyer and said, what's going on?

01:05:20.040 And he said, yeah, they want to suspend you tomorrow.

01:05:21.940 I said, I need to be able to talk tomorrow.

01:05:24.060 I need to be able to say something.

01:05:25.160 You can't suspend me.

01:05:26.060 He's like, they're suspending you tomorrow.

01:05:28.120 And then from there, just this shit unfolded.

01:05:30.740 I think I did call you on Saturday and said they're going to try and screw you.

01:05:35.280 I think you did.

01:05:36.740 As a man who knows what it looks like when it's coming.

01:05:40.260 I'm sorry.

01:05:41.100 I couldn't resist.

01:05:42.180 I said, hey, buddy, you're fucked.

01:05:44.640 Yeah, I did say.

01:05:46.120 I said, they're going to try and fuck you.

01:05:47.340 And you're like, no, no, no.

01:05:48.080 I've been here a while.

01:05:49.080 I've worked for this company.

01:05:49.840 No, no, they love me.

01:05:50.680 This is the network that raised me.

01:05:52.200 No, no, no.

01:05:53.000 They couldn't do that to me.

01:05:53.880 I didn't do anything.

01:05:54.600 I'm fine.

01:05:54.880 So my advice, I'll never forget it was, because I still think it's good advice, march into

01:05:59.360 Andy Lack's office and say, listen, bitch, can I call you a bitch?

01:06:04.220 You may have some thought about destroying me.

01:06:07.060 And I'm a father of children, so you can't do that.

01:06:09.260 I just didn't see it.

01:06:10.120 But if you do that, I will go on Good Morning America on Monday, and we're going to talk

01:06:15.500 about your marital infidelity, just so you know.

01:06:18.780 No, no, no, because you're not allowed to destroy me.

01:06:21.220 So how about don't do that?

01:06:23.300 All your sexual harassment claims from everywhere you've ever been.

01:06:26.860 Right.

01:06:27.500 Right?

01:06:27.900 You who would later go on to fire Matt Lauer and claim you knew nothing.

01:06:33.620 Exactly.

01:06:34.400 Please.

01:06:35.440 And by the way, Andy's landed at PBS, apparently.

01:06:38.760 He's producing a new series at PBS.

01:06:41.620 Fire him.

01:06:43.580 How do travelers stay prepared for the unexpected?

01:06:46.840 Well, when you're flying across the country or driving for hours crammed into crowded spaces,

01:06:51.300 and yet most people don't think what they'd do if they got sick or someone they love got

01:06:54.820 sick.

01:06:55.080 Have you thought about that?

01:06:56.380 Well, now it's the holidays.

01:06:57.340 It's the busiest travel time of the year, and it's also flu season.

01:07:00.440 Everyone's stressed.

01:07:01.460 People are coughing.

01:07:02.240 And if you're unlucky, you could find yourself ill in a place where you need medication.

01:07:06.880 So what do you do about that?

01:07:08.420 Well, thankfully, there's a solution.

01:07:09.740 It's called Jace Go.

01:07:11.540 Jace, J-A-S-E Go.

01:07:13.240 It's a compact kit of essential prescription medications for all of those unexpected health

01:07:17.520 emergencies, for infections, food poisoning, and more.

01:07:21.820 It's designed to go wherever you go.

01:07:23.600 Think about that.

01:07:24.440 Snow hits, pharmacies close, flights get delayed, bad things happen.

01:07:28.280 If you have Jace Go, you're covered.

01:07:29.940 There's no scrambling, no worrying.

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01:07:34.840 So don't wait until you're stuck without essential medications.

01:07:38.560 It's Christmas vacation.

01:07:39.560 Is there going to be an ear infection?

01:07:40.780 Probably.

01:07:42.180 So go to Jace.

01:07:43.160 Go to jace.com slash go.

01:07:45.240 J-A-S-E dot com slash go.

01:07:48.000 Use the code Tucker to get your Jace Go with a special discount.

01:07:51.980 Jace.com slash go code Tucker.

01:07:54.260 We're talking about this off air, just having spent both of us a lot of time in this business.

01:08:12.980 The television executives are that rare group, and you don't run into them very often, who

01:08:17.300 don't respond to anything but threats.

01:08:18.860 Whereas, like, you know, a normal person, your wife, your children, your friends, anybody

01:08:23.300 off the street, the lady at Dunkin' Donuts, like, they can all be reasoned with, and they're

01:08:27.600 moved by love, and, you know, a cogent argument.

01:08:31.300 TV executives, it's like, if you don't have a gun in your hand, well, you just said you

01:08:34.280 got the job because GMA was thinking of hiring you.

01:08:36.840 Yeah, that's leverage.

01:08:38.020 That's it.

01:08:38.640 That's the only thing that moves.

01:08:40.600 Right.

01:08:41.140 The right thing will never be done.

01:08:42.960 Exactly.

01:08:43.320 Wait, wait, someone else wants him?

01:08:44.880 All right, now we want him.

01:08:45.960 Move it over to here.

01:08:47.340 But that's life.

01:08:48.760 You know, the leverage, I get it.

01:08:51.920 God, it's not my life.

01:08:53.440 That's not the world that I live in outside of-

01:08:55.080 It's not the world.

01:08:55.640 I'm leaving, you know, I wish I had the wherewithal then to know what was happening.

01:09:04.040 It was so hot and so crazy, and I had to hire a litigator and all these things, and we ended

01:09:09.860 up doing a deal with them to let me go, and it was not my full contract.

01:09:14.520 And it was, and then the next day there's reports that Billy Bush got all this money.

01:09:18.520 It's not even half of what they reported.

01:09:20.700 It's like, it was a shit.

01:09:24.420 I had bought a place in New York that I was super proud of.

01:09:28.460 I remember.

01:09:29.300 I remember.

01:09:29.760 I took a bath, I took a bath on that.

01:09:31.860 I mean, you want a 360 shit show, and it happened like that in an instant.

01:09:39.600 You're at the highest you've ever been in your career.

01:09:42.620 You can't believe it.

01:09:43.500 You've got drivers wherever you're going, you're like, I'm maybe drinking a little bit

01:09:47.020 of that Kool-Aid thinking I'm pretty cool.

01:09:49.820 And maybe I, and here's the positive part.

01:09:51.620 Maybe God said, you're not ready for life yet.

01:09:56.580 Amazingly, you're 44 years old, and you don't know what a struggle looks like.

01:10:00.860 You have had a pretty sheltered life.

01:10:02.700 I'm looking, trying to think of it on a bigger picture.

01:10:05.220 And you need, everyone in this life, no one goes unscathed.

01:10:11.560 Everyone has to get their doors blown off in some way.

01:10:14.120 Hopefully it's not cancer with a child or something terrible, but it's going to be something

01:10:18.800 horrible that's going to shake you to the core, and you've got to figure it out.

01:10:22.900 This was mine.

01:10:23.900 I'm not extraordinary that I've had to deal with getting my doors blown off.

01:10:28.260 I'm only extraordinary in the details of it, that the reality guy from 2005 is now destroying

01:10:35.220 16 other people to become the Republican candidate for president.

01:10:39.600 That's all very extraordinary.

01:10:43.100 But I think what happened then was three years of disaster and then getting back to work

01:10:51.280 and slowly putting one foot after the other and leading to, you know, this moment now where

01:10:56.920 the whole thing is just absolutely incredible.

01:11:00.120 I watched with amazement and real sadness.

01:11:03.320 And by the way, you were one of the very, very, very few people that, you know, just didn't

01:11:08.880 give a shit and called it for what it was.

01:11:11.440 You were, you...

01:11:12.460 Well, I was totally outraged by it and the lying behind it.

01:11:15.920 And we talked about this off air, but if they were like, you know, what you said about

01:11:19.780 Megyn Kelly, if they're like, okay, you know, it's not, the returns aren't what we thought

01:11:23.080 they were going to be.

01:11:23.480 We're going to have to let you go.

01:11:24.660 That's a totally reasonable thing to do.

01:11:26.920 If they had said, Billy, we're just too embarrassed and like, let's work out some

01:11:30.320 way or whatever.

01:11:31.580 I don't...

01:11:31.920 But they were like morally high-handed with you, like you committed some kind of crime

01:11:36.300 and I was outraged by that.

01:11:38.060 Well, it really...

01:11:38.400 What did you do wrong?

01:11:39.600 I never understood it.

01:11:41.080 And then the small...

01:11:42.440 You know, then I was unhirable.

01:11:44.820 I was just unhirable.

01:11:46.000 I didn't work for three years.

01:11:47.320 I know.

01:11:48.260 I know.

01:11:48.600 Three years is a long time.

01:11:49.980 I didn't work.

01:11:50.560 Couldn't get hired.

01:11:51.220 And to my fault, what I should have done is launch the Tucker Carlson network right then

01:11:57.080 and there.

01:11:57.560 The technology wasn't ready for it.

01:11:59.080 It wasn't...

01:11:59.740 I wasn't ready.

01:12:00.820 I was like, no, damn it.

01:12:02.720 This big family that had me in it is going to have me back because it isn't right.

01:12:07.420 And I'm going to stick around until they do.

01:12:09.200 And finally, I made it back, you know, an extra at Warner Brothers hired me.

01:12:15.980 I've done it for five years.

01:12:17.600 And I'll forever be grateful to the woman who lives very close to you down here since

01:12:21.820 she's retired, Lisa G, who hired me and I got, you know, going again.

01:12:26.840 Sure, but can you, without, you know, getting too painful, but just sort of linger on what

01:12:31.440 those days, you walk outside and the driver tells you that the car has been canceled.

01:12:40.260 So you call your lawyer.

01:12:41.500 Did you call Noah Oppenheim, Andy Lack?

01:12:44.040 Yeah, I called Noah.

01:12:45.060 And I mean, and, you know, at that point, everything goes to the lawyers.

01:12:48.760 Their phones no longer answer.

01:12:51.200 So they're told by legal, you cannot talk to him at all.

01:12:55.420 And so...

01:12:56.340 But you never had another time?

01:12:57.540 Well, six months later, I talked to Noah Oppenheim.

01:13:01.800 But you never talked to him there in the middle of it.

01:13:03.600 And he said, Noah, there's a beautiful thing.

01:13:04.940 Noah said to me, if you, if you never speak to me again, if you hate my guts for the rest

01:13:09.880 of your life, I understand.

01:13:11.040 I'm so sorry.

01:13:12.200 I, I, I, I, it wasn't supposed to happen like this.

01:13:15.380 I am so sorry.

01:13:16.120 Well, I called Noah because I know Noah and I was, I probably shouldn't say this, but

01:13:20.780 I did.

01:13:21.540 And I called him.

01:13:22.880 He called me back.

01:13:23.940 Um, I was in the car with one of my children coming back from a college tour.

01:13:27.560 I'll never forget it.

01:13:28.380 And she was driving.

01:13:29.340 She was just wanting to drive because she'd gone to boarding school.

01:13:31.640 She didn't know how to drive.

01:13:32.400 Anyway, we're in the car.

01:13:33.360 He calls me back on speaker.

01:13:35.920 And I, she reminded me of this actually last night when we were saying you were coming.

01:13:39.460 Um, and I lost, completely lost control.

01:13:41.660 And I'm like completely lost control, scared my daughter because I was just so, I mean, I've

01:13:45.380 got nothing to do with it, but I just, I was just so mad that someone could do.

01:13:49.260 Well, I felt it like it's just so unfair.

01:13:51.380 And then you don't call the man directly and it's, Oh, through the lawyers, legal won't

01:13:55.440 let me.

01:13:55.680 It's like, what?

01:13:56.580 Yeah.

01:13:56.840 You just suspend all humanity and decency because you work for some stupid company.

01:14:00.820 It's going to be gone in 10 years.

01:14:02.120 There won't be an NBC.

01:14:03.020 Like all of this is passing away.

01:14:04.540 All of this is fake.

01:14:05.940 And what matters is treating other people with decency.

01:14:08.860 And they just forget that.

01:14:09.540 But that's, there's a history of that at the Today Show.

01:14:11.300 If I were still the host of Access Hollywood and all of that had happened, and I never spent

01:14:15.220 two months at the Today Show.

01:14:16.380 I hadn't made that very recent move.

01:14:18.240 I don't think they would have fired me at Access.

01:14:20.160 I think I, I kind of, I was the Matt Lauer of the place.

01:14:23.920 It's a smaller place, but I'd been there so long.

01:14:26.840 People looked up to me.

01:14:27.720 I kind of had influence.

01:14:28.840 I could, they wouldn't have done it.

01:14:30.400 They needed me.

01:14:31.520 But remember, I'd gotten to the Today Show where half the place didn't want me there

01:14:35.200 in the first place.

01:14:35.960 That's right.

01:14:36.300 So it was definitely inside politics.

01:14:38.620 So it was Matt.

01:14:39.120 Mean girls, high school shit.

01:14:40.100 But, and now, I mean, things, it's so long ago and things have changed so much that I

01:14:45.380 kind of feel sorry for Matt Lauer, who at the time I was outraged.

01:14:48.000 And I laid into him, by the way, I got to speak to Matt Lauer nine months afterwards.

01:14:51.760 And he and I said, you know.

01:14:53.020 Had he fallen yet?

01:14:54.280 He had not fallen yet.

01:14:55.480 But he called me with some bullshit about, I can't believe that Trump is president and

01:14:59.640 you lost your job, which is the number one thing I hear from everyone.

01:15:02.560 But I was like, not from you, asshole.

01:15:04.540 And I laid into him.

01:15:06.180 And I laid, please don't try that on me.

01:15:08.380 I'm not dumb.

01:15:09.340 I mean, you, you're the leader.

01:15:10.580 I said, you're the leader of that place.

01:15:12.280 You could have fought for me and you didn't.

01:15:13.960 And I know why you didn't.

01:15:15.500 Because you didn't want me and my full head of hair in that building.

01:15:19.000 And I get it.

01:15:20.680 I laid and said, no, no, no.

01:15:21.660 I fought for you privately.

01:15:22.740 I'm like, no, you didn't, dude.

01:15:24.520 I know you didn't.

01:15:25.620 And your minions didn't.

01:15:27.360 And shut up and save it.

01:15:29.640 And then when he got fired, I was like, hey, are you okay?

01:15:34.480 Here's some books.

01:15:35.320 Try these three books.

01:15:36.200 I did the same.

01:15:37.100 I also texted him.

01:15:38.520 I never liked him, but I always text people when they get fired just because I feel like

01:15:42.860 we should do that.

01:15:43.660 We should.

01:15:44.680 You don't want to.

01:15:45.220 I texted Jeff Zucker when he got fired.

01:15:48.520 You did?

01:15:49.280 Yes.

01:15:49.700 And, you know, the funny thing is, yeah, I really disliked Jeff Zucker intensely.

01:15:54.460 I worked for him and I intensely disliked him.

01:15:56.980 I like the way you say intensely.

01:15:58.180 I did.

01:15:58.560 And he got fired and I was in bed.

01:16:01.140 I was in the morning and someone said, Zucker just got fired.

01:16:03.460 And I texted him immediately.

01:16:05.980 It's a two-liner, you know, because I've been there and never heard back from him.

01:16:10.160 This was four years ago, probably three or four years ago.

01:16:13.140 And I was at a lunch in Abu Dhabi last week.

01:16:16.380 And guess who sat next to me?

01:16:18.020 Jeff Zucker.

01:16:18.600 Wait, he didn't choose to sit.

01:16:20.480 No, he just wound up.

01:16:21.700 Wait, his placard, his nameplate was next to you.

01:16:25.020 Yes.

01:16:25.520 I sit down at lunch.

01:16:28.060 In an official capacity.

01:16:29.480 This is some type of event.

01:16:30.800 Yeah, I was just traveling.

01:16:32.660 He didn't know he was sitting next to you.

01:16:33.640 No, I wind up sitting at lunch.

01:16:35.060 There's Jeff Zucker.

01:16:36.440 And the first thing he says to me is...

01:16:38.260 Thanks for your text.

01:16:39.020 Yes.

01:16:39.980 It's the first thing he said.

01:16:41.780 People remember these things.

01:16:43.020 They do remember them.

01:16:43.700 Always reach out.

01:16:45.280 Someone's down, always reach out.

01:16:47.060 That is...

01:16:47.840 Can you say that again?

01:16:48.520 Because that's the truest thing in life.

01:16:49.800 Whether it...

01:16:50.460 Like someone gets diagnosed with a disease or something.

01:16:52.660 You're like, oh my God, I don't know what to do.

01:16:54.080 Maybe I'll do nothing.

01:16:55.440 Would they get fired or something like that?

01:16:57.620 Always reach out.

01:16:59.860 Always.

01:17:00.440 That is...

01:17:00.900 And I can tell you that from a guy...

01:17:02.180 I had...

01:17:03.220 When I got canned, I had beautiful letters.

01:17:05.680 Julie Bowen reached out.

01:17:07.820 You know...

01:17:08.300 We also went to high school with.

01:17:09.480 She was...

01:17:09.880 We went to high school with.

01:17:10.680 And you're like, ah, did I have a crush on her?

01:17:12.400 Yeah.

01:17:12.880 Jeez.

01:17:14.720 But Suzanne Somers and Cindy Crawford and crazy Dennis Quaid.

01:17:21.600 And it goes on.

01:17:23.300 But there's many, many...

01:17:24.520 Lots and lots of letters.

01:17:25.740 It's funny you remember it all, though.

01:17:27.040 Oh, yeah.

01:17:27.440 Kate Walsh, the actress.

01:17:29.460 And...

01:17:29.920 Oh, you're...

01:17:30.880 We know who you are.

01:17:32.380 You're the greatest guy.

01:17:33.200 I'm so sorry.

01:17:34.560 It's like, oh.

01:17:35.440 Always reach out.

01:17:36.780 Always reach out.

01:17:37.580 So you texted Matt Lauer when he...

01:17:39.620 He...

01:17:39.980 Boy, talk about a fall, too.

01:17:41.840 I mean, that was...

01:17:43.160 Matt Lauer had one of the nicest, most impressive wives ever.

01:17:47.320 Yeah, Annette.

01:17:47.880 And Annette, amazing person.

01:17:49.180 Yeah, very sweet.

01:17:50.180 Um, very smart.

01:17:52.100 But, uh...

01:17:53.620 What...

01:17:53.880 Did he respond when you texted him?

01:17:55.140 Yeah.

01:17:56.140 Yeah.

01:17:56.400 Have you seen him?

01:17:57.040 And then afterwards, we...

01:17:57.900 You know, I chatted with him once, and I haven't talked to him in years, but, um...

01:18:02.440 Yeah.

01:18:02.880 You know, I think when they...

01:18:04.100 There was this funny thing that happened in Rio.

01:18:06.560 Like, when we got back from Rio in the Olympics, all these people were writing these stories.

01:18:11.120 Like, In Touch Weekly gossip magazines were writing, Billy Bush wants Matt Lauer's job,

01:18:15.800 and he's gone in for it, and this is just stuff that in no way is true, because I'm trying

01:18:23.860 to build a 9 o'clock Regis-style show.

01:18:27.480 We were going to do it at the top of the rock, the top of the building with, like, a jazz

01:18:31.000 quartet, like a morning live audience, and it was going to...

01:18:33.420 We had all these wonderful plants.

01:18:34.720 It was going to be in the most amazing show.

01:18:37.520 So we were...

01:18:38.140 I don't.

01:18:39.160 I don't want your job.

01:18:40.020 But he read all these things, and he thought that I was planting them through my, quote-unquote,

01:18:46.360 team, whoever would be on my...

01:18:48.000 I'm just a kid that came from Access Hollywood.

01:18:51.620 So...

01:18:51.940 Oh, you didn't have a team?

01:18:52.780 Oh, my team!

01:18:53.700 So he called me to his office.

01:18:55.340 This is while I was like, this is after my first month.

01:18:58.100 I'm still there, and he's like, hey, I need to talk to you.

01:18:59.720 These, you know, reports that have come out, like, you want my job and all this stuff and

01:19:03.160 all these things that started in Rio and all this.

01:19:05.820 I need you to know that they have to stop, and they got to stop now.

01:19:10.760 Whoa.

01:19:11.360 And I went, oh, my God.

01:19:13.700 Are you a crazy person?

01:19:15.620 Have you been in this business, and you're so psychotic, and it's gotten you to the point

01:19:20.580 where you think I'm planting stories to get rid of you so I can have the number one chair?

01:19:28.340 Oh, my God.

01:19:29.260 Like, do people do that?

01:19:30.740 Like, I'm just...

01:19:31.580 I just want you to like me, dude.

01:19:33.160 I just want you to take me out to lunch and say, welcome.

01:19:36.500 Yeah.

01:19:37.520 Like, I have to every new person that arrives to a show that I'm the anchor of.

01:19:42.780 Of course.

01:19:43.600 Of course.

01:19:44.240 Welcome.

01:19:46.580 Did Roker ever confront you directly?

01:19:50.020 Confront me about anything?

01:19:52.080 Oh, I mean, he's just, like, attacking me.

01:19:52.980 Well, he attacked me on air about the Ryan Lochte thing, and after that, it kind of, it brushed

01:19:58.660 away, and, you know, Roker's, it was very difficult to deal with in that you just have

01:20:04.140 kid gloves, you know what I mean?

01:20:08.040 Yeah.

01:20:08.820 You walk on eggshells.

01:20:09.720 Did you ever talk to him again?

01:20:11.460 He left me several voicemails.

01:20:13.240 I still have them, by the way.

01:20:14.680 Really?

01:20:15.380 An Al Roker voicemail.

01:20:16.860 Hey, Bushman, I'm coming to town, just, you know, feeling so good that you're fired.

01:20:22.720 I mean, not really, but, like, I'm so glad you're not here, so now I can like you again.

01:20:26.480 I just can't like you here.

01:20:28.520 It's too close to my stuff.

01:20:31.280 I was looked at as a predator by the men.

01:20:34.740 I will say this, the women on the show, terrific, delightful.

01:20:40.460 Really?

01:20:41.180 We had the best time.

01:20:42.880 Hoda Kotb would put her arm around me and say,

01:20:44.860 Bushman, you and I are the future.

01:20:46.980 And it turns out Bush and Kotb are the future, just not this Bush.

01:20:52.700 And so, yeah, I mean, the women were great.

01:20:56.100 Oh, you know, I totally forgot.

01:20:56.500 Two separate worlds of the Today Show, seven to nine.

01:20:58.540 Wait, they hired another, I totally forgot that.

01:21:00.420 Yeah, that's them.

01:21:03.600 Denump them.

01:21:04.820 But.

01:21:06.020 Wow.

01:21:06.700 I have trouble connecting dots sometimes.

01:21:09.120 Yeah.

01:21:09.500 But look, here's what happens.

01:21:11.980 This all leads, this leads to.

01:21:15.580 Hilarious.

01:21:16.480 Yeah.

01:21:16.900 I never thought of that till right now.

01:21:18.880 Thank you.

01:21:20.860 Neither have I.

01:21:22.020 What's it like in, I mean.

01:21:24.960 So.

01:21:25.880 Do you ever talk to her about it?

01:21:27.300 Oh.

01:21:27.960 Your cousin.

01:21:29.180 Yeah.

01:21:29.500 Jenna.

01:21:29.720 No, not.

01:21:32.240 Yes.

01:21:32.640 We talked once at my, at Barbara Bush's funeral in Houston about it.

01:21:38.440 But I remember when I was coming in or making my moves and things were going really well for me.

01:21:44.460 And I was making that move to the Today Show.

01:21:46.920 She was like, how do I like, they just keep having me do the same things.

01:21:50.140 How do I get out of this?

01:21:51.020 And I gave her some advice.

01:21:52.320 And, you know, I said, well, just stop interviewing your dad.

01:21:55.040 Like every week.

01:21:55.980 Don't do that.

01:21:57.560 That's a start.

01:21:59.380 And then, but she's done incredibly well.

01:22:03.080 And, and she, you know, I love her.

01:22:06.000 And she, terrible situation for her to be in while they're, you know, totally defenestrating your cousin and you move up.

01:22:16.300 Yeah, that is.

01:22:17.480 Poor thing.

01:22:18.000 I mean, I mean, I felt, I felt as badly for her because it's just, you know, it's just awkward.

01:22:23.960 She didn't want it that way.

01:22:25.000 Of course not.

01:22:27.280 Of course not.

01:22:28.140 Wow.

01:22:28.560 Also, and we have great fun today.

01:22:30.220 I mean, I saw her recently and I, we always have laughs and everything's wonderful.

01:22:34.560 I, and recently ran into Phil Griffin.

01:22:37.660 No way.

01:22:38.840 MSNBC.

01:22:39.840 Who I thought, I thought he was behind all this and I was ready to lay into him.

01:22:44.380 And I started to.

01:22:46.040 And he was like, no, no.

01:22:48.400 The man that fired you, I hate him too.

01:22:50.620 Lack.

01:22:51.060 Yeah.

01:22:51.500 Everybody hates Lack.

01:22:52.960 The one thing everyone agrees on is that Andy Lack is a very bad guy.

01:22:57.240 You know, it's funny.

01:22:58.060 Phil Griffin fired me.

01:23:00.300 And it's one of the very, maybe the only firing, I've had a lot of firings, but it was the only one where I had no hard feelings whatsoever.

01:23:06.600 Yeah.

01:23:06.780 And he called me in at Thanksgiving.

01:23:08.580 I'll never forget it.

01:23:09.920 And I was about to take the train back to Washington.

01:23:12.940 He goes, Hey, gotta talk to you for a sec.

01:23:13.960 Buddy.

01:23:14.560 Called everyone buddy.

01:23:15.460 Buddy.

01:23:15.840 Probably still does.

01:23:16.720 And he goes, Hey, you know, we hired you here at MSNBC.

01:23:20.560 We were hoping to move the channel right to compete with Fox.

01:23:22.680 That didn't work.

01:23:24.620 And then you brought in Rachel Maddow onto your show.

01:23:27.520 And it turns out she's way more popular with our audience than you.

01:23:29.980 So we're going to let you go because it didn't work.

01:23:33.480 And, but we'll pay out your contract and it's totally fine.

01:23:35.540 And he was so direct with me and honest with me.

01:23:40.380 That's exactly what, I mean, first he started, he was like attacking me in the New York Post page six.

01:23:46.160 And I called him up and I yelled at him.

01:23:48.300 Do we have to do it this way?

01:23:49.420 We have to do it this way.

01:23:50.240 But news people have to do it this way.

01:23:52.380 They have to.

01:23:52.960 They have to use the gossip pages in New York.

01:23:55.280 Exactly.

01:23:55.860 It's so sad.

01:23:56.380 To crush you and whatever.

01:23:57.980 But once I called him on that and he stopped, he was totally honorable about it.

01:24:05.200 Good.

01:24:06.000 And, you know, I obviously don't like or approve of MSNBC, but I've never attacked Phil Griffin because he paid me the honor of directness.

01:24:15.980 I like that.

01:24:16.660 Me too.

01:24:17.120 What he said to me in June was when I was coming after him or I wanted to corner him.

01:24:22.180 And he said, he said, no, I asked Andy, hey, you know, you've helped, what's his name, Brian Williams before.

01:24:30.940 Like you stand up for people that we like and Billy Bush, good guy.

01:24:35.000 Like, what are you going to do about Billy?

01:24:36.040 And Andy said to him, he told me, fuck Billy Bush.

01:24:39.900 Why?

01:24:40.380 Who gives a shit?

01:24:41.420 Who cares?

01:24:42.520 Billy Bush.

01:24:43.120 What?

01:24:43.420 Doesn't matter.

01:24:43.900 He's nothing.

01:24:44.700 Forget him.

01:24:45.100 And so, literally just, and I thought, oh my God.

01:24:51.480 But it endorsed that everybody.

01:24:54.880 Yeah.

01:24:55.420 There's the reason that Andy Lack is a terrible guy.

01:24:57.320 My dad called two people on my behalf.

01:25:01.460 My father, bless his heart.

01:25:03.840 You called Noah Oppenheim.

01:25:05.160 Yeah.

01:25:05.300 My dad called Andy Lack.

01:25:07.300 And he's like a really high integrity, clean fighting guy.

01:25:11.660 Only tells clean jokes.

01:25:12.780 Like, you know, calls up and says, he says, Andy, I don't know if you know this.

01:25:17.860 No, he wrote him a letter.

01:25:19.180 He says, I've recently had a case of the shingles.

01:25:21.480 I don't know if you've had a case of the shingles before, but they're very, very painful.

01:25:24.740 And I, I just hope that one befalls you soon.

01:25:28.320 You're a horrible, you're a horrible person.

01:25:30.800 Jonathan Bush.

01:25:31.560 He's since died three years ago.

01:25:33.000 But then he also called Steve Burke because back in the day, dad knew his, his father.

01:25:39.420 Not well, but his father was Dan Burke who ran Cap City's ABC.

01:25:43.900 So Steve Burke, who was the CEO and chairman of NBC at the time, dad called him and said,

01:25:51.300 there's no way this apple could have fallen far from the tree.

01:25:54.500 You're, what you're doing to my son is unbelievable.

01:25:58.600 It's a character.

01:25:59.380 So you're killing this guy and he didn't do anything and shame on you.

01:26:03.640 There's no way the apple fell that far from the tree.

01:26:05.800 Your dad was an honorable, honorable man.

01:26:07.780 And he was like, I'm so sorry.

01:26:09.640 I don't know, I don't know what to do.

01:26:10.720 I'm just out of my hands.

01:26:12.200 I'm sorry.

01:26:12.940 So sorry.

01:26:13.820 And I was like, that was it.

01:26:15.460 But of the people always reach out when someone's down and always call to tell someone an asshole

01:26:21.840 that they're an asshole when they are.

01:26:23.400 Exactly.

01:26:24.060 Right.

01:26:24.340 But be direct.

01:26:25.300 I think that's, that's direct.

01:26:26.660 And that's why you'll never hear me attack Phil Griffin, even though.

01:26:30.160 Right.

01:26:30.400 Good.

01:26:30.700 And me neither.

01:26:31.360 Cause I, it like cleared.

01:26:32.800 So I wanted to like him so much.

01:26:34.300 And then I was like, but he, I remember his face, like walking out of Andy Lack's office

01:26:39.860 when the plan was in motion to fire me.

01:26:42.760 MSNBC was never first on the air with a story.

01:26:45.000 And they were first on the air with the bus story.

01:26:47.760 Cause they knew it was coming.

01:26:49.320 It was a setup.

01:26:50.080 They had colluded.

01:26:51.020 So just one detail that I elided over, which is how it got from the vaults at NBC News to

01:26:58.560 the Washington Post.

01:26:59.620 Who did it go to?

01:27:00.640 We don't know exactly, but if you want to begin the internal investigation, Noah Oppenheim is

01:27:06.200 the president of, of NBC.

01:27:08.960 He's the head of the, he's general manager of the Today Show.

01:27:11.800 So his co-editor of the Harvard Crimson newspaper back when he was a Harvard man, uh, was a writer

01:27:21.480 named David Farenthold from the Washington Post.

01:27:24.160 And Farenthold is the one they, they ran the Crimson together.

01:27:27.360 They were, uh, both groomsmen in Hillary, in Chelsea Clinton's wedding.

01:27:33.520 Actually?

01:27:34.140 Co-groomsmen.

01:27:34.980 Oh yeah.

01:27:35.260 Cause one of their other buddies was the guy that Chelsea married.

01:27:38.260 So they were groomsmen in the wedding together.

01:27:40.500 Anyway, that guy's the one who released it.

01:27:42.420 It's like the paper trail is terrible.

01:27:44.580 I mean, I could start there.

01:27:45.520 No way.

01:27:45.920 So the college buddy of the NBC president.

01:27:49.340 He's now a writer at Washington Post.

01:27:50.960 And then two years later or a year and a half later, he gets his own NBC News contributing

01:27:55.220 gig and he gets a sweet gig over at MSNBC.

01:27:58.780 So they, they pay him back for the, for the hustle.

01:28:01.240 Is what, that's where I would start the investigation.

01:28:03.520 I'm not saying that that happened, but I would begin there and just see if it saves you some

01:28:08.300 time.

01:28:08.700 I don't know.

01:28:10.500 Now I can guarantee you that here's the good thing about Noah, that Noah didn't want to

01:28:16.420 do this.

01:28:17.000 I'm his only hire.

01:28:18.260 He was new on the job and he made one move.

01:28:20.880 I'm going to change that third hour.

01:28:22.320 I'm putting Billy Bush in there.

01:28:23.540 He's got personality.

01:28:24.720 That's the guy we want.

01:28:26.180 Boom.

01:28:26.600 He makes his one hire.

01:28:28.040 Then this thing blows up on him and lack, no question, turns to him and says, get this

01:28:33.900 tape to a, out into the world.

01:28:37.020 Find a way to do it.

01:28:38.900 And he's like, and he did not want to, but this was the obvious way.

01:28:42.940 So, you know, his only choice was to say, no, Andy, I'm not going to do that.

01:28:47.380 It's wrong.

01:28:47.980 I hired the guy and we shouldn't do that to him.

01:28:50.080 But he didn't.

01:28:52.240 What happened to Andy Lack?

01:28:54.160 Andy eventually got fired.

01:28:55.460 He, to be fair, everyone who was involved in all of this has all since been fired.

01:29:00.960 This is, everyone's been fired.

01:29:02.500 This is like the Soviet Union where, you know, all the early Bolsheviks commit these mass

01:29:07.460 murders.

01:29:07.640 It's not worth it, folks.

01:29:08.540 Then they're all killed.

01:29:09.460 Yeah.

01:29:10.140 Yeah.

01:29:10.600 Exactly.

01:29:11.140 Kamenev, Zinoviev, Trotsky, all die.

01:29:13.320 But Lack is now, I've been told, at PBS somewhere producing some series.

01:29:17.740 Why was he fired from NBC?

01:29:18.780 Uh, just one bungle after the next.

01:29:23.560 The Me Too thing came along, Me Too movement came and the Harvey Weinstein thing he bungled

01:29:29.320 and then he bungled the Brian Williams, that disaster, and then the Matt Lauer disaster.

01:29:34.140 And I think at the end of the day, they're just like, this is not a good guy.

01:29:38.900 Was Brian Williams on your side?

01:29:41.300 He wasn't, he never, he never reached out.

01:29:44.560 I mean, I, I like Brian, I have no reason not to.

01:29:50.260 Uh, I always had fun with, uh, Tom Brokaw was on the same floor as me where my office

01:29:55.400 was.

01:29:55.740 Craig Melvin was right next to me, loved Craig.

01:29:58.040 Craig came up to me at a country club, you know, I was having lunch with an old agent

01:30:01.660 of mine out in Rowayton.

01:30:03.440 Yeah.

01:30:03.600 I went out there to, uh, have lunch with an old agent who was, who was in, kind of in

01:30:08.600 poor health.

01:30:09.480 So I just went to see him and I ran into Craig and his wife and their kids in the parking

01:30:13.600 lot and he said, I'm so sorry.

01:30:16.400 What happened to you?

01:30:17.340 Like this is, you were such a good guy.

01:30:19.420 And I just, it's terrible.

01:30:21.880 Is he still there?

01:30:23.180 He just got the big promotion.

01:30:24.880 He's in the Lauer chair.

01:30:26.660 Oh.

01:30:27.100 Maybe he planned this whole day.

01:30:28.820 He took, that's a long plan, Craig.

01:30:30.900 That's an eight year plan.

01:30:31.980 Now, great guy, lovely, uh, decent singing voice.

01:30:35.560 And, um.

01:30:37.220 Amazing.

01:30:37.820 So the, the people, you know, you still must know people in linear television at the

01:30:41.980 Today Show or other places.

01:30:43.980 How do, how are they feeling about the prospects of their business?

01:30:46.300 There's a few big, there's like a few big contracts left, but they're all shrinking.

01:30:49.780 Like Stephanopoulos just renegotiated to come down.

01:30:52.580 Everyone's coming down.

01:30:53.780 They're all coming down to earth.

01:30:55.480 Hoda left.

01:30:56.280 But the, there's still plenty of 20, 25 million dollar a year people.

01:31:00.480 Like everyone on Good Morning America.

01:31:02.980 Uh, but there are all their renegotiations come down.

01:31:06.180 The whole thing is slowly.

01:31:07.520 The, the low is for the next five, 10 years, I think there'll be a place for the, for that

01:31:13.420 morning TV.

01:31:14.020 Right.

01:31:14.440 But, but not at these astronomical.

01:31:18.000 It doesn't feel like it drives anything anymore.

01:31:21.760 Well, it's so scared.

01:31:22.820 It doesn't take an opinion.

01:31:23.820 It doesn't take a position.

01:31:24.900 It doesn't, it's, it's, it's, it's the comp, they're not, today's show and Good Morning

01:31:31.580 America are not competing to win or to grow.

01:31:36.180 It's who can die the slowest.

01:31:38.300 Yeah.

01:31:39.320 That's the fight.

01:31:40.420 But it doesn't, I mean, it used to be for decades, you know, if it appeared in the first

01:31:45.640 hour of the Today Show, it kind of defined the news.

01:31:48.740 7.35 AM was known as the, the money slot.

01:31:51.920 Whatever, whatever airs at 7, still to this day, whatever airs at 7.35, folks, that's

01:31:56.680 the best thing they got.

01:31:57.800 And after that, you can move on.

01:31:59.180 But it doesn't seem like it like determines what people are talking about at 8.35 anymore.

01:32:04.240 No.

01:32:05.140 No.

01:32:05.620 No.

01:32:05.940 The internet is, is.

01:32:08.600 Just ate it.

01:32:09.840 Ate, eating, destroying everyone.

01:32:11.740 It's an insatiable belly.

01:32:14.020 It's.

01:32:14.440 Can't get enough.

01:32:15.020 So what'd you do after, so you get canned and then what happens?

01:32:19.280 So I get canned and my life falls apart and I start drinking heavily and I, I, I pathetically

01:32:28.540 cry and cry and cry and, and, and, and I can't get, I just have like anxiety and panic

01:32:36.360 and I end up going to this place called the Hoffman Process.

01:32:39.400 The day that Donald Trump walked in for his first day of work as president of the United

01:32:45.540 States was the day that I walked in, turned in my phone and checked in for nine days in

01:32:51.740 a mental health retreat for, because I couldn't, I couldn't sleep.

01:32:57.020 I couldn't, the panic and the anxiety was just cancellation.

01:33:01.280 Like at that level is, it's, it's severe.

01:33:05.200 The mental toll, you know, we're fortified now.

01:33:08.900 Nothing could happen like that again to me.

01:33:10.660 I had to learn the hard way.

01:33:11.740 And I was maybe especially weak at the time.

01:33:15.180 So far, so, so far from Marcus Aurelius that I couldn't handle that.

01:33:22.520 But, but I wanted to, I had suicidal ideation.

01:33:25.480 I had like, I was on a balcony in this place I was renting and I was like, and I had to

01:33:30.140 lay down on the ground because I felt myself like wanting to go to just get away from, I

01:33:35.860 had paparazzi everywhere outside following me, saying shit to me.

01:33:39.540 And, and I just got so bad that I went to this place and that was my first, that was in

01:33:44.520 January of 17.

01:33:46.080 And that was my first step in, in putting myself together.

01:33:50.480 I walked on the flames with Tony Robbins.

01:33:53.240 I read every book you could read.

01:33:55.340 I started, you know, yoga.

01:33:57.960 I, you know, my, found this amazing pastor who became my friend.

01:34:03.060 I had this wonderful photo of me in church at this church, Zoe Church in Los Angeles,

01:34:08.800 Pastor Chad Veach, a really great guy.

01:34:10.600 And he, I didn't know he was doing it.

01:34:12.780 I mean, he said, everybody, he said a prayer for me out loud and everyone in the congregation

01:34:17.740 reached forward and put their hand on my shoulders.

01:34:20.480 I like fell apart crying.

01:34:22.060 And I was like, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to put myself back together.

01:34:25.300 I'm, I'm, this is, we'll fortify here.

01:34:29.260 And then you just one step after the next and step after the next.

01:34:32.360 And, and then you get going and life gets better.

01:34:37.060 I didn't think it, I, I, it would, but it, it's like, now it's about to get much better

01:34:43.280 as I follow great pioneers like you and Megan and, and, and others and do things my way.

01:34:51.460 I've been fired.

01:34:52.640 Yeah.

01:34:53.040 Yeah.

01:34:53.600 It's so, look, you know, I mean, it's probably hard even to think of it, but I wonder if like

01:35:01.660 when you're 70, you won't think, you know, it's probably that wasn't all bad that experience.

01:35:07.440 I think that's right.

01:35:08.600 People will say to you when you're having in the, in the shittiest time of your life,

01:35:12.400 they'll say, it's all going to work out in the end.

01:35:16.100 It's all going to be a reason.

01:35:17.560 It's all, believe me, once you get through it, life will never be.

01:35:20.680 And I think there's truth to that.

01:35:22.340 You just got to get to the other side.

01:35:24.180 And I wasn't ready for anything bad to happen to me.

01:35:28.380 And now I'm ready for whatever comes next.

01:35:31.020 Yes.

01:35:31.640 I really am.

01:35:32.280 I'm, I'm very, I'm not an, I can handle it.

01:35:36.100 Whatever it is, I can handle it.

01:35:37.860 And also to go and do the show that I'm about to go do on my own, I think it's helpful to

01:35:46.100 know what it feels like to be down, no matter who you're talking to.

01:35:50.220 If you're a professional communicator, to, to know what it feels like to be down is a

01:35:56.840 really important tool.

01:36:00.160 I strongly agree with that.

01:36:01.380 Yeah.

01:36:02.000 I also think I've noticed, certainly noticed it in my own life that success isn't necessarily

01:36:06.740 great for men and especially men.

01:36:09.860 And it does, you do get filled with hubris actually.

01:36:14.100 Yeah.

01:36:14.340 And you do.

01:36:14.760 Oh, I thought I was a cool guy.

01:36:16.220 Like two, two.

01:36:16.660 Yeah, I've been there.

01:36:17.380 I've been there.

01:36:17.740 I'm not mocking you in any way because I've certainly been there.

01:36:20.300 And, um, in fact, I've been there so much that when I got fired the last time, Susie,

01:36:25.420 my wife, um, she was like thrilled.

01:36:27.780 I got fired.

01:36:28.340 Absolutely thrilled.

01:36:28.940 She didn't like the employer anyway.

01:36:31.020 Uh, she thought that they were.

01:36:32.740 That's interesting.

01:36:33.680 No, no, she was thrilled.

01:36:34.460 She was, she was actually walking the dogs and I called her.

01:36:36.480 I was like, I just got fired.

01:36:37.980 And she goes, why?

01:36:38.840 I said, I don't know.

01:36:39.400 They didn't tell me.

01:36:39.900 She goes, I'm so glad.

01:36:41.880 Oh my God.

01:36:42.880 I love you so much, Susie.

01:36:44.540 Oh, that's great.

01:36:45.180 She's like, but she's the best.

01:36:46.640 Yeah.

01:36:47.020 But I, and she never said it or would say it, but I do think she on a gut level understood.

01:36:52.260 It's like, it's important for a man to have setbacks once in a while because it, it reminds

01:36:57.960 you what's important.

01:36:58.700 These are all cliches for a reason, but it reminds you that you're not God and you need

01:37:03.200 to know that.

01:37:03.900 That's really important to know that.

01:37:05.200 Man, if life was just one rosy contract after the next and look at me, look at me, what

01:37:10.100 kind of textured life would that be?

01:37:11.920 You have, you can't come back and triumph over something if you got nothing to triumph

01:37:17.020 over.

01:37:17.640 So that's just the way life is, right?

01:37:19.560 Well, you look at Lauer and Roker and they're hardly alone in this, but they're like legitimately

01:37:25.280 successful people in television.

01:37:26.640 I mean, they're the most successful people in television.

01:37:28.400 Very, very rich in a long run.

01:37:30.280 And very long run.

01:37:31.980 Lauer's run.

01:37:32.860 Unbelievable.

01:37:33.100 Roker's even longer.

01:37:34.220 By the way, take me out, but not after two months.

01:37:36.720 How about after 20 years when I'm sitting on a giant pile of money?

01:37:40.740 When you pay off the mortgage, but, but why are they so unhappy?

01:37:44.380 Like I've wondered this.

01:37:45.560 I got on a TV in 1995, so it's 30 years.

01:37:48.380 I've always noticed that, that the most successful people are like miserable.

01:37:53.360 Someone yesterday told me, knows Larry Fink, who's like one of the richest people in the

01:37:57.520 world, runs BlackRock.

01:37:59.120 He said, Larry Fink, really smart, you know, complicated person, not all bad.

01:38:03.520 But the marker, the distinguishing characteristic of Larry Fink is he's miserable.

01:38:08.220 He's truly unhappy.

01:38:10.960 What is that?

01:38:11.900 Why are so many very successful people miserable?

01:38:15.980 I don't know.

01:38:16.520 But I, I, I do know that I don't want to be a billionaire.

01:38:19.960 I'm not interested in it.

01:38:20.940 No.

01:38:21.200 No, thanks.

01:38:21.900 Amen.

01:38:22.320 I want to have enough to do the things, you know, that, that, that I want.

01:38:26.080 I want to be able to go skiing once in a while.

01:38:27.560 Why do you, why do you, because there's, I mean, not to say more money, more problems,

01:38:31.780 but I, I, it's, it's a drug like anything else.

01:38:35.140 Keep taking it.

01:38:35.880 Keep taking me more.

01:38:36.720 Give me more.

01:38:37.200 Give me more.

01:38:38.280 It's never going to satisfy.

01:38:39.820 It's just never going to satisfy.

01:38:41.040 What I want is, I'm not doing what I'm doing.

01:38:44.180 I'm not launching my new show to become rich on my own and make a lot of money.

01:38:49.420 I want to be stimulated.

01:38:51.140 I want to have conversations like this.

01:38:53.040 I want to look at you and be honest with you and, and talk to every person I talk to

01:38:59.340 in a completely honest, authentic, funny way.

01:39:02.260 And I don't, the truth isn't going to appeal to everyone, but the truth matters.

01:39:07.460 Yes.

01:39:08.540 I care more about that.

01:39:10.240 I care about being stimulated every day.

01:39:12.420 And if we do well, that's awesome.

01:39:15.380 So it sounds like the, just in your telling the three years of not working were, it's not

01:39:21.260 good not to work.

01:39:22.240 It's not good not to work.

01:39:23.360 You got to get up and have someplace to go.

01:39:25.240 That's, you need to have something you're doing.

01:39:28.520 Yeah.

01:39:29.320 And not, you know, I just kept thinking, how could they, betrayal?

01:39:32.260 Oh my God.

01:39:32.860 Oh my God.

01:39:33.460 Oh my God.

01:39:34.040 How could they betray me like this?

01:39:36.160 Oh, and I couldn't get out of my own way.

01:39:37.820 I was like, just so mad.

01:39:38.840 My brother said something beautiful.

01:39:40.280 He said, when you get over all this, you're going to get over it.

01:39:42.940 And when you do, you're going to get the opportunity to come back as yourself.

01:39:46.580 Well, your brother, speaking of getting screwed, totally different line of work.

01:39:50.900 He got screwed.

01:39:51.220 He knows what it feels like to have an activist, activist investor, throw you out of the company

01:39:56.100 you built.

01:39:56.960 And I talked to him the other day about something random and, uh, sounded totally happy.

01:40:01.960 Totally.

01:40:03.280 Now he's overcome that.

01:40:04.740 And you know what he did?

01:40:05.520 He launched, he started another one.

01:40:08.400 Amazing.

01:40:09.040 Yeah.

01:40:09.220 He's got his, a new healthcare company called Zeus Health.

01:40:11.680 So he started Athena and Zeus is the father of Athena.

01:40:15.140 So he's reminding everyone who built it.

01:40:17.940 Yeah.

01:40:18.280 A to Z.

01:40:18.700 Um, how did you get over that?

01:40:22.100 How did you forgive?

01:40:23.220 Cause you actually, I think it's fair to say at this point, we're almost two hours in and

01:40:27.360 anyone who's followed this, I think would agree.

01:40:28.840 You did get shafted.

01:40:30.340 How did you forgive?

01:40:32.860 Um, because well, my executive producer who sent the tape, he was only looking to cover

01:40:38.760 his ass in case he used it and they, and Trump sued.

01:40:42.780 So I, I, when I really thought about it, I'm like, he wasn't, he was trying to cover himself.

01:40:47.560 He wasn't trying to hurt me.

01:40:48.900 It ended up really hurting me, but he didn't mean to.

01:40:52.180 And the good times that I've had with him far outweigh the bad.

01:40:55.480 We've traveled all over the world to Olympics and all these different things and covered

01:40:58.660 so many things together.

01:40:59.680 And we really work well together.

01:41:01.420 So we healed the friendship and now he's going to be the producer of my new show.

01:41:05.580 And we're back together again.

01:41:06.860 That's amazing.

01:41:07.340 Am I a big person or what?

01:41:08.900 I mean, come on, uh, that little shit.

01:41:12.800 And then, but, but I, I, I, I love him and, um, and now he works for me and I don't work

01:41:17.440 for him.

01:41:18.000 So, uh, uh, uh, but with Noah, I knew that Noah was just doing what they told him to do

01:41:24.820 and he didn't have, he just arrived to this giant machine and he didn't have the guts to

01:41:28.680 say, no, we're doing the right thing.

01:41:32.300 I'm not doing that.

01:41:34.560 Most people would have done what he did.

01:41:36.760 Most.

01:41:37.440 Yes.

01:41:37.660 It takes a really big person, a character to not do that.

01:41:40.500 So I forgave him.

01:41:42.320 Uh, and what's he doing now?

01:41:44.900 The only one I don't forgive is Andy.

01:41:46.480 And I could, if he came to me and asked for it, but he doesn't return, you know, he's

01:41:50.780 just a, he's just a shit.

01:41:51.980 I tried calling him once and so I'm fine not forgiving him.

01:41:55.660 Like I'm fine.

01:41:56.400 Like I can, like, I'm not, my soul won't rot if I can just live and hate one person.

01:42:01.160 Right.

01:42:03.060 It's just one Tucker.

01:42:04.340 It's just one.

01:42:04.840 You may, look, I'm no theologian, but I think you, it's possible you get the Andy

01:42:08.120 Lack exemption.

01:42:08.920 I don't know.

01:42:09.800 I don't know.

01:42:10.260 I just, I kind of like hating him anyway.

01:42:13.520 And what's, so what's Noah Oppenheim doing now?

01:42:15.680 I don't know.

01:42:17.060 Yeah.

01:42:17.480 I don't know.

01:42:18.180 I'm going to rush to call him.

01:42:19.560 Yeah.

01:42:19.700 Let's call him.

01:42:20.680 Billy Bush.

01:42:21.360 That was, um, thank you for doing this.

01:42:23.380 Okay.

01:42:24.120 Now, will you tell people to tune into my new show?

01:42:26.560 100%.

01:42:26.960 January 13th is Monday we begin.

01:42:30.140 And guess what the name of the show is?

01:42:32.340 Just to bring everything A to Z.

01:42:35.540 Hot Mics with Billy Bush.

01:42:38.580 The mics are still hot, except for we know they are.

01:42:42.940 Where are you doing, where are you doing it from?

01:42:46.140 Uh, I got a great little studio over by, uh, that Howie Mandel, uh, a little corner of

01:42:51.000 Howie Mandel's operation, um, that he set up for me.

01:42:54.320 And then ultimately we'll build out our.

01:42:56.340 In Los Angeles.

01:42:57.280 In Los Angeles.

01:42:57.860 While we're doing that, uh, we'll build, uh, our own.

01:43:00.960 Um, so how long, so it's been your whole life you've worked for companies.

01:43:08.020 Yeah.

01:43:08.380 I work for myself now.

01:43:09.840 And the Hot Mics is like, uh, it's, it's the zeitgeist.

01:43:13.100 Sports, politics, entertainment, um, pop culture.

01:43:16.200 Are you excited?

01:43:16.540 Just everything that's happening in the, in, that's hot.

01:43:19.460 Uh, yeah, I'm really excited.

01:43:21.620 Really got a great team of people.

01:43:23.740 I'm learning this incredible world that you know so well.

01:43:27.040 No makeup required.

01:43:28.280 Did you know that?

01:43:28.960 I don't need any makeup.

01:43:29.800 Right, but I'm saying you beautiful 50.

01:43:31.900 You afford makeup your whole.

01:43:33.360 You, you look the same.

01:43:34.840 You have no gray hair.

01:43:35.980 What are you doing?

01:43:37.040 Uh, do you do rinse out?

01:43:38.320 Do you do a little rinse out?

01:43:39.340 I, I actually honestly wash my hair with Dr. Bronner's bar soap.

01:43:43.140 So, um, and I shave with it and I use no products whatsoever.

01:43:47.480 Yeah.

01:43:47.880 And I am Scandinavian, which helps.

01:43:50.060 Uh, but.

01:43:50.680 Can I compliment you as a man of good hair?

01:43:52.420 Your hair is fantastic.

01:43:54.340 And hair, two, the hair hall of fame.

01:43:56.960 There you go.

01:43:57.180 We have a shot.

01:43:57.960 There you go.

01:43:58.560 I have a picture of us in high school.

01:44:01.100 Same hair.

01:44:01.920 Big hair.

01:44:02.640 Big hair.

01:44:03.380 Um, it was bigger.

01:44:04.020 It was bigger than the eighties.

01:44:05.220 Yeah.

01:44:05.660 Yeah.

01:44:06.200 You were an animal, man.

01:44:07.200 This guy, what a, this is, you got, you got yourself going on the right path.

01:44:11.280 Yeah.

01:44:12.000 Well, that was, that was wonderful.

01:44:13.160 Thank you.

01:44:13.840 Thank you.

01:44:14.600 Thank you so much.

01:44:15.520 Thanks for listening to the Tucker Carlson show.

01:44:19.440 If you enjoyed it, you can go to Tucker Carlson.com to see everything that we have made the complete

01:44:24.680 library.

01:44:25.440 Tucker Carlson.com.

Billy Bush： The Infamous Trump Tape, Secrets of Corporate Media, & Megyn Kelly v. Harvey Weinstein

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