00:00:00.640This is Disruptors. No hype, no hot takes, just clear thinking, real trade-offs, and practical insight with a focus on what matters for Canada.
00:00:10.740Every episode, we talk to the people shaping what comes next in business, policy, technology, and the real economy.
00:00:18.320I'm John Stackhouse. Follow Disruptors and never miss an episode.
00:00:21.840Catherine Austin-Fitz, thank you for doing this.
00:00:32.520The first time we did an interview over a year ago, different worlds completely, and I remember thinking, wow, I've rarely spoken to anyone who thinks in such big terms.
00:00:42.220I mean, that is a compliment. I wonder if this is all true. I think time has proven you right.
00:00:48.400We've had a couple of meals in the subsequent months, and so I just want to say, I think you're really wise, and I'm grateful to have you.
00:00:57.100So, I want you to know it was only 10 months ago, but it seems like a long, long time.
00:01:03.280Yeah, I meet people in airports all the time. We're like, I used to think I was a conspiracy theorist, but now I know I was right.
00:01:07.300You know, but it's kind of a variety of that.
00:01:08.900But last time we had lunch, a couple months ago, you were telling me about, and I wish we had this on tape, but we can recreate it here, about the control grid, a concept that you had explained when we last did an interview, and how it was, as you said at lunch, snapping into place.
00:01:27.740Can you just, for people who haven't seen your previous talk, explain what the control grid is, what it looks like, and what it means?
00:01:37.260So, the control grid is a process or an infrastructure that allows digital technology to be used to assert phenomenal surveillance and control of people.
00:01:49.740And at the very heart of it is what I call programmable money.
00:01:53.340So, it's money that is no longer just a currency.
00:01:57.140It's money that comes with a set of rules that can be surveilled and forced.
00:02:01.100So, imagine back in the pandemic, if your money, if I said, okay, you've got to lock down and your money won't work if you leave your house.
00:02:09.440You can't buy gas in your car because your money is programmed with AI and software to enforce a whole set of centralized rules.
00:02:17.100And programmable money allows the bankers who've been running monetary policy to now control fiscal policy and essentially replace legislatures and executive branch by making and enforcing the rules through the money.
00:02:32.460Now, that requires a large infrastructure of surveillance.
00:02:36.900So, you need digital IDs, and then you need the hardware locally and globally to do the surveillance and implementation.
00:02:45.620So, for example, if you look at the local hardware, and now people are seeing it, you know, now that it's material, they're beginning to see it snap into place.
00:02:53.960So, I don't know if you know Flock cameras, but there are many communities across the United States that are entering into contracts paid by the taxpayers to put up cameras all around their neighborhood that track license plates and keep that data and share it with a variety of people.
00:03:10.080Or you have, or you have, or you have the FCC is trying to overrule local controls on cell towers so they can literally put cell towers every 400 to 700 feet so that they can have the kind of invasive surveillance you need.
00:03:23.620Or you have satellites now that can literally beam in Wi-Fi so that whether you have Wi-Fi in your home or not, they can start to track you.
00:03:31.560And all those systems come, put you in what I call the panopticon.
00:03:36.860So, we saw in the Middle East with the first war with Iran, we saw 11 leaders out of 12 sort of top leaders in science and government assassinated because they're literally tracking everyone.
00:03:51.860And they can identify them and track them and then you have invisible weaponry that can then take them out or, you know, can identify missile strikes.
00:04:01.980So, may I ask you to, so you're talking about the 12-day war against Iran in June of 2025.
00:04:07.120We were led to believe just as newspaper readers or news consumers that those 11 Iranian officials were targeted with human intelligence, you know, that Israel had spies inside of Iran.
00:04:22.740But you're saying that was done digitally.
00:04:24.400That's probably, I would assume that that's probably true because you always want to get human confirmation of what the systems are telling you.
00:04:32.200So, it's always better if you have both.
00:04:34.220But we are now moving into building out the kind of surveillance systems that can literally track, identify, and integrate with not only our existing weaponry, but ultimately autonomous weaponry.
00:05:05.900Because if you look at what it takes to apply the equivalent of a social credit system to people's money, so the social credit system I apply to you is different than the one I apply to me.
00:05:16.460And if you look at the data I need to track you and test whether or not you're following the rules I've given you and enforce those rules, it's an explosive amount of data, particularly because you're looking not just at financial control, but spatial control.
00:05:38.420So, Congressman Massey is trying to kill the kill switch in your car.
00:05:42.460That's because spatial control means I can turn off your car or I can set it so your money won't work more than a mile from your home or a 15-minute city.
00:05:51.520So, you literally, you're not allowed to leave your 15-minute city and your transportation and your money won't work outside of that area.
00:06:04.720AI is very good at tracking things that can be expressed mathematically.
00:06:10.320And financial transactions and spatial movement can be expressed mathematically.
00:06:14.300And so, what the AI centers are for primarily is to build that digital control grid and to manage that data.
00:06:23.120So, and now it can be used for many other purposes too.
00:06:25.840So, it's not just going to be used for control.
00:06:27.860But to me, that's the primary purpose.
00:06:30.140And that, if you look at the cameras, if you look at the cell towers, if you look at the satellites and then the AI, the data centers, those are all component pieces of the local hardware.
00:06:40.700So, there are three sort of pillars that I track.
00:07:25.800They come at it in different ways and they do different things.
00:07:28.360But this is, you know, ultimately what this is doing is this is going to a point where the central bankers, whether they do it with a central bank digital currency or private stable coins and asset tokens, are setting the world up so that they can control your financial transactions literally in real time with the equivalent of a social credit system.
00:09:59.920So if you're the central bankers and you want to take cash down to zero, what you do is you create lots of different kinds of rules and regulations that nudge people in that direction.
00:10:11.920Okay, so that's one of the things that's happening.
00:10:14.600And you use these things as an excuse.
00:10:29.320And one of the reasons they're getting the rule and one of the things they use to do the nudging with is if you look at the amount of cybercrime and financial fraud that's happening that is causing people to go down and get cash, it's real.
00:10:43.380And the banks are losing a great deal of money on it.
00:10:46.200And it's a serious problem, particularly because if you look at the technology used to using it to be implemented, you know, I believe they're using neurowarfare.
00:10:57.520So they get these people very addicted online and they get them doing sort of crazy financial things.
00:11:03.000Because I was trying to wire, I was in the Netherlands, I was trying to wire 5,000 euros to one of the people who works for me.
00:11:11.760And my bank stopped it because they felt that I was a victim of a romance crime.
00:12:50.040So, okay, but you would think that banks beset by cybercrime would want to encourage the use of cash.
00:12:56.460Uh, so, you know, the banks are in a movement for more and more central control.
00:13:06.220Again, the financial system for 20 plus years has been steadily moving in all different layers from regulatory to these kinds of things.
00:13:15.780From a world where the bankers control monetary policy to a world where they control fiscal policy.
00:13:23.140And, and that's all, the nudging is all part of moving you there.
00:13:26.620Can you explain the difference for those of us who are not economically fluent?
00:13:29.120Okay, so, so, since 1913, the United States has have a governmental structure where the central bank, the Federal Reserve, which is the Board of Governors in Washington and the 12 central banks, manage monetary policy.
00:13:44.340So, they basically, uh, working with the banks, run the financial transactions, the New York Fed runs the governmental accounts, they control the government bank accounts, and their policies of Fed funds, interest rate, and money onto the reserve tracks affects the money supply and the, you know, and basically the money supply and how, how the money works, okay?
00:14:09.200So, it's more complicated than that because they have lots of regulatory functions.
00:14:12.460But the people vote for their representatives, so whether it's the state house or the Congress, they vote for elected representatives from their jurisdiction and area, and those people decide fiscal policy, which is what taxes do we collect, what tariffs do we collect, what bonds do we sell and raise money, and how does that money get spent?
00:14:35.460So, so, my representatives, your representatives are determining fiscal policy, and the bankers are determining a monetary policy, and it's a balance of power between the people and the bankers.
00:14:46.460Now, with the digital control grid and, and programmable money, the bankers can assert control of fiscal policy, and they can set, they can just decide what the taxes are and take them out of your account, and they can essentially determine the rules of how it all gets spent.
00:15:06.380And so, and so, and so, it's a very, you know, it's sort of a financial coup d'etat that over time, you know, they want to assert complete control of fiscal and monetary policy.
00:15:16.940And, and essentially, the legislatures will go to being sort of show and tell, or, you know, go out of business.
00:15:25.200We're, we're moving quickly in that direction, where the legislatures in every country are becoming less powerful, in many cases irrelevant.
00:15:36.080If you go back to 9-11, and when Wesley Clark said, we're going to, we're going to invade seven countries in five years, what you were talking about were the countries where those central banks were not on board to do programmable money.
00:15:51.920And their governance structures were not on board with essentially, you know, because of Epstein, I'll call it the Rockefeller-Rothschild model.
00:16:04.100There was an effort to say, okay, we're going to basically assert control of the central banks in those countries.
00:16:28.480So, well, you know, Iran's central bank counts.
00:16:32.600One of the reasons it counts is because their oil and energy is very important, including for China.
00:16:37.060And that's very important in the BRICS system.
00:16:40.720What the BRICS system is trying to do is to create independent payment systems.
00:16:44.720But if you're going to come out with programmable money, with digital IDs that are interoperable globally, and programmable money that controls in each jurisdiction centrally, you can't afford leakage.
00:16:59.160And so you've got way too much leakage in the system to proceed with what they're trying to do.
00:17:04.700And Iran is, and the BRIC nations are a sticking point.
00:17:09.440And certainly Iran's oil, you know, feeding China gives China greater independence.
00:17:15.720So you think that one of the motives behind toppling all these governments was the creation of the control grid we're talking about now?
00:17:27.500So if you go back, so you had the wonderful Richard Warner on your show.
00:17:32.880And Richard has a book called The Princes of the End, which is about the sort of effort to take over the Japanese central bank.
00:17:41.900And I think what you're looking at, I think part of the state of play with both Russia and Iran is how are you going to make sure that those central banks are entirely in the system?
00:17:52.840So, yeah, that was an amazing interview.
00:17:56.000And he told the story about writing this book on the Japanese central bank.
00:17:59.780Like, I can't imagine a more obscure topic from my non-economically minded standpoint.
00:18:05.120It'd be like writing a book on postcards from the Falkland Islands.
00:18:07.560It's like, okay, a book on the Japanese central bank.
00:18:11.740And he said, well, actually, they suppressed it.
00:18:13.660I couldn't get it published in the United States and you can't get a copy.
00:18:23.740But, I mean, that, like, why would someone try to suppress a book?
00:18:28.980Because it shows you the true, it takes you right into the secret governance system and it shows you the primary mechanism by which they implement policy.
00:18:56.600So I used to finance transit systems and train systems.
00:19:00.760So, you know, a lot of these systems have two tracks that the wheels go on and then they have a third rail that the power line runs on.
00:19:09.200And you get a train trap that flips over and sucks the energy from the third rail.
00:19:14.520So a lot of the things that really operate the third rail are very invisible.
00:19:20.760And, for example, in central banking, to listen, to talk about tier one and tier two and tier three capital at the BIS and the banks, there's nothing more boring.
00:19:38.220You know, the way you're taught to talk about it is boring by design, you know, but it's like the mechanisms of the legal system.
00:19:51.980If you look at the mechanisms of civil procedure or criminal procedure, you know, and you get into the weeds on it, it can be very boring unless you understand the application and that can make it very interesting.
00:20:05.020But the capital, most people don't understand the capital, you know, sort of regulatory system.
00:20:13.580And, yeah, it can get very, very boring.
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00:23:00.300So back to programmable digital currency.
00:23:04.600All the features that you've described so far of the control grid, that's the one that has not been fully implemented, would that be fair to say?
00:23:22.880Right now, if you look at the traditional financial system, we're talking about hundreds of trillions of dollars, stocks, bonds, global stocks, and bonds market.
00:23:32.300The crypto market or money issued on a distributed ledger is tiny.
00:23:37.400So maybe it's $4 trillion compared to $250 trillion just counting stocks and bonds.
00:23:42.880And then we have the currency market, which is bigger.
00:23:44.660So most people in the traditional financial system look at the distributed ledger system and say, you know, it's tiny, it's tokens.
00:24:40.580The reason the Genius Act and the Clarity Act are very, very important is there has been a push to say,
00:24:48.720we don't want central bank digital currency because we don't want the central banks putting the banks out of business and controlling centrally.
00:24:55.940What has happened, though, is now they're doing a form of private, think of it as private CBDC,
00:25:03.300stablecoins and digital assets and tokens that can essentially implement the same social credit and control system,
00:25:14.120So let me turn to stablecoins for a second.
00:25:16.880Because the Genius Act has passed, they're working on regulations that will come out at the end of this year or the beginning of next year.
00:25:22.240So if a stablecoin is issued, it's a crypto issued on a distributive ledger,
00:25:28.420and it's basically the money that is received to buy the stablecoin is reinvested in either treasury bills that are 93 days or shorter in maturity,
00:25:38.080or high-quality bank deposits, so cash.
00:27:27.180But again, that money is going to go into the treasury market rather than multiply on Main Street.
00:27:33.680There's been a real quiet war over the last 20, 30 years because the federal regulators have pushed the community banks and credit unions to not make loans on Main Street,
00:27:45.880but put their money in the investment portfolio where they do buy treasuries, okay?
00:27:49.860And this is all part of getting your local economy more and more dependent on federal money.
00:28:09.040And this is the little secret to real solutions.
00:28:11.400If you look at the last 50 years or 70 years since World War II, every effort has been made through taxes or credit or various financial mechanisms to get all the money to go into central and come back down, right?
00:28:27.100And now if you go into most communities, so America's 3,100 counties, most counties, 40 or 50% of the income in that county is coming through, you know, it goes up to Wall Street or Washington and comes back down.
00:28:41.860And so you end up with more and more central control.
00:29:11.960I mean, it's hard to believe now, but 30 years ago when the internet was being introduced to the public, the idea was this is empowering for the average person.
00:29:20.280So when that happened, that was when my company, this was the fight I had with the Department of Justice.
00:29:26.980We had one software tool called Community IPO in a Box to help everybody locally facilitate equity, you know, stock markets for local areas.
00:29:35.920But we built a software tool called Community Wizard.
00:29:38.280And you could dial in and say, my neighborhood is my county or my zip code or my congressional district.
00:29:44.500And you could map out the sources and uses of all federal credit and money in your community.
00:29:50.440So you could get the equivalent of a financial statement for the jurisdictions in which you vote for political representation.
00:29:57.340So you could really hold your congressman accountable because you could see a financial statement for your jurisdiction.
00:30:04.500And the Department of Justice seized our offices, seized the software, put it, it took me six years to get it out from the courts.
00:30:12.360And when I got it out from the courts, it was missing all the most important pieces.
00:30:16.740It's funny they'd want to discourage accountability.
00:30:19.000Well, what I discovered when I was in the administration was that if the local business people could see how the money works around them, they could get back in the game.
00:30:32.620So, you know, we regularly saw, I told you this before, we regularly saw communities where HUD was spending $250,000 per unit to build public housing.
00:30:42.260And $50,000 would buy and rehab a single family foreclosed property in the same four block area.
00:30:47.340So, and I literally, but it was the same with jobs.
00:30:53.260We were paying a contractor in Washington $100,000, $125,000 per hour to do something that we could keep local.
00:31:00.460You didn't need to send it all the way up there so that a big contractor could, corporate contractor could do it.
00:31:07.440You know, so there was a great story during the financial crisis where a woman lost her job, very responsible, hardworking, couldn't find another job,
00:31:16.000ultimately had to take food stamps, which was a matter of great shame for her.
00:31:20.520And so she had a problem with them and called tech support and got a woman in India working for JPMorgan Chase, who had at that point 37 of the state food stamp, you know, programs they were managing.
00:31:34.860And she said, wait a minute, you know, I could do this job.
00:31:38.600And if I was doing this job, I wouldn't need food stamps.
00:31:40.740So why are we sending it to India with a big markup for a big bank when I could just do this job and then I wouldn't need food stamps?
00:31:48.000It's hard not to see malice in there somewhere.
00:32:06.960Now, if government intervenes to take a million dollars of income to, you know, that Main Street is making and shift it into a publicly traded stock, that stock will go up 10 million.
00:32:21.220Second, what's the biggest source of political contributions?
00:32:28.960So the more I shift money out of Main Street into publicly traded stocks, the more I get the pop on the stock and the more investors of real estate capital gains or company enterprise capital gains, the more money they'll give.
00:32:45.280So, you know, so in Washington, there's this giant sucking sound.
00:32:55.860You shut down Main Street, which is not publicly traded.
00:32:59.120And suddenly all their market share has to go to publicly traded stocks, either online companies or the big box stores.
00:33:06.540So I'll never forget there's a wonderful moment during the pandemic when Rick Santilli is standing on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange.
00:33:16.080And he's saying, and Andrew Sorkin is up in the studio.
00:33:20.140And Santilli says, this makes no sense.
00:35:01.100I've had so many dumb positions over the years that I think I was for that.
00:35:05.640So, at the time that I wrote the analysis, the best figures I could get from general accounting office was it was costing, the whole criminal justice system was costing $154,000 per person per year.
00:35:20.720And one of the reasons was the construction of all these private facilities is one of my theories.
00:35:25.680But what I showed you was the stocks were trading on a per-bed basis.
00:35:44.440And literally, what they did was they started the companies and then they started a program to drop SWAT teams into neighborhoods to literally drop in and round up kids, you know, who could be dealing drugs or not.
00:35:58.880You know who was dealing, bringing in the drugs.
00:36:12.460And at the same time, what they did is they created a company at the Department of Justice called Unicor that could market prison labor to corporations for tiny dollars.
00:36:26.800And the book describes, it's called Dillon Reed and the Aristocracy of Stock Profits and explains how the whole system works, who made money, how they made money.
00:36:35.340And what's sad about it is, you know, my guess from doing that analysis is that many of the people making money on it are the same people who are making money bringing in the drugs.
00:36:52.300So, and the power of the book, it took me a year to write it and I had a, I was living in Montana and you couldn't walk in my house.
00:37:00.420You could only step on piles of SEC documents and there are literally hundreds of thousands of pages of documentation behind it because I had to prove all the different pieces of the financial ecosystem.
00:37:13.040And so we put up all the documentation and it was, you know, it was quite astonishing because it really helped people who had trouble understanding the growing central control.
00:37:23.720It helped them to see that it was very intentional.
00:37:25.840The saddest fact of the moment we're living in is that the American dream itself is evaporating for a lot of young people.
00:42:13.080Because this is one of those things that sounds very boring, that is like a, you know, a 10 Richter earthquake.
00:42:20.720So for many, many years, there was a group of us who were trying to bring as much transparency
00:42:30.120to the fact that there was serious criminality going on in the federal accounts and $21 trillion was missing.
00:42:37.940And that was happening because the federal government refused to obey the financial management laws.
00:42:44.620So they are required, you're a citizen, you pay your taxes, they're required to give you, you know,
00:42:49.900you give them your 1040 and they're required to give you back and says, okay, here's how we spent your money.
00:42:55.900And that's required in the Constitution, the financial management laws.
00:42:58.920The federal government has, since the mid-90s, been in complete violation of those laws.
00:43:04.600So there was a lot of pressure that was brought to bear when Dr. Mark Skidmore with Soleri published his report on the $21 trillion missing.
00:43:12.800And so pressure, pressure, pressure, the DOD keeps saying, you know, we can't pass an audit, we're not going to pass an audit.
00:43:22.020And then 2018, remember the Kavanaugh hearings?
00:46:47.560What is the black budget, and what was he looking at, and why should we care?
00:46:50.120So, we have an overt economy, we have a covert economy.
00:46:54.700The covert economy is driven by a series of pools of money and cash flows.
00:47:01.200The first one, Joseph Farrell calls it the hidden system of finance.
00:47:07.560The first one started with all the seizures during the wars.
00:47:11.460So, during World War II, a great amount of assets were seized, and that created a pool of money that was available for covert operations.
00:47:21.700So, there's a wonderful story in Christopher Simpson's first book about how the money they had seized had been moved into the Exchange Stabilization Fund, which is the mother of all slush funds.
00:47:32.400That's managed by the Secretary of Treasury, managed by the New York Fed for the Secretary of Treasury.
00:47:38.140So, the money had been moved in, and the Dulles brothers are sitting at Sullivan and Cromwell, and they use that money to rig the 48 elections in Europe at the request of the Vatican.
00:47:50.440Anyway, so, this is the, you know, so we have this seizure pool.
00:47:58.400Then what happened, we passed the National Security Act in 47, and then in 49, we passed the CIA Act, which was very fractious.
00:48:08.600It literally took assassinating Forrestal to get that done.
00:48:34.160I don't think one in a hundred people know that.
00:48:36.260So, we, you know, he was a Dylan Reed partner.
00:48:38.760So, I knew that because I used to stare at his painting in the partner's boardroom or dining room, and they would, you know, they would always train you by telling you,
00:48:48.520if you're not careful in Washington, this-
00:48:50.380It's funny, there are two books that I have read on it, both of which cost like a hundred bucks a piece on eBay, because they're, it's just-
00:49:35.720So, anyway, so, but the 49 Act was the CIA Act.
00:49:40.120So, you have the National Security Act, 47, the CIA Act.
00:49:43.240What the CIA Act authorized was the ability to appropriate money to different agencies and then claw it back secretly to a black budget.
00:49:52.920So, now we have the hidden system of finance with the pools of seized money, and we add to that a layer of money that can be appropriated and clawed and used secretly,
00:50:03.940only subject to very limited oversight by a committee in Congress.
00:50:10.160So, the appropriations committees wouldn't see that money, only this one committee that oversaw the black budget.
00:50:17.900And if you look at those two pools, the next step happened in 81 when Bush comes in.
00:50:25.880Bush comes in as vice president under Reagan, and his deal with the Reagan folks during the campaign was,
00:50:32.260because he'll, because he'd run the CIA, he'll run intelligence and enforcement.
00:50:37.720And the Bushies were very, very good at the nuts and bolts of sort of the mechanics of government and the legal system and money.
00:50:46.700He got an executive order done that said, essentially, you can use this secret money, the black budget money,
00:50:55.700and you can use it to hire corporate contractors who can now do highly classified projects.
00:51:03.400Now, let me explain what this means as a financial matter.
00:51:05.720So, we were talking about stock market going up.
00:51:09.580You can now take the most secret, powerful technology in the world and pay corporations to learn and end up owning that technology
00:51:18.720secretly in a way that drives their stock to the moon.
00:51:22.580So, now you've connected the U.S. treasury market directly like a pipe into companies and drive their stock up almost to an infinite amount.
00:51:34.540So, it's quite, as a financial mechanism, it's one of the most powerful things that ever happened in our history.
00:51:44.200What percent, so we have the federal budget, which we can look up online.
00:51:50.220But after FASB-56, it's totally meaningless.
00:51:53.160And, okay, so it's meaningless because we don't know where the money is actually going.
00:51:57.200No, because the most important pieces of money, we don't know what's been taken out.
00:52:02.400We don't know what's been made secret.
00:52:05.120So, you can see what's there and you can see, for example, I can see by looking at the HHS budget how much we're spending to poison America.
00:53:01.120And what you want to find out is where did the $21 trillion go or come in?
00:53:07.360You know, all the federal government has refused to balance its accounts since the mid-90s.
00:53:14.360And we know that there are inexplicable, undocumented adjustments of enormous amounts.
00:53:21.060And the only way you can figure out what happened is to go into those bank accounts and figure out what came in and what went out and to actually map out the actual cash.
00:53:32.720And you have to do it not just in the, you know, so the New York Fed is depository for the U.S. government.
00:53:38.360So you have to do it in those accounts.
00:53:39.920But you also have to look at the borrowing accounts and the slush fund accounts, which is the exchange stabilization fund.
00:53:45.240Has anyone attempted to do any of that?
00:53:46.960And so, you know, Rand Paul and his father and Congressman Massey have talked about auditing the accounts.
00:53:57.080And it's funny because Massey and I were at a great conference once and he was talking about shutting down the Fed.
00:54:02.980And I kept saying, no, no, you don't shut it down until you get the $21 trillion back.
00:54:07.040Otherwise, they get to keep the $21 trillion.
00:54:10.280So Thomas was up giving a wonderful speech and he said, you know, I think we should shut down the Fed.
00:54:15.940And then he looked at me and he said, after we get Catherine's money back.
00:54:29.060He was one of the few people who didn't take AIPAC money.
00:54:32.580But the all-out effort to destroy him, I just feel like there's something more than just getting in a tiff with Trump for not taking AIPAC money.
00:54:39.180So here's what's at the heart of Massey's fight.
00:54:44.340And, you know, are we going to be run by the rule of law or are we going to be run by a secret governance system, essentially consolidating things into what I would call the mega rich who are above the law?
00:54:58.980You know, this is fundamentally about is there going to be the rule of law or not?
00:55:05.220And, you know, the thing I love about Massey, he's an engineer.
00:55:10.140And if you talk with him or listen to him about a wide range of subjects, you know, starting with food and agriculture, he is ruthlessly focused on what is productive, on what makes economic sense.
00:55:25.060And what he knows is that the centralization of control is destroying productivity.
00:55:35.280And he knows that, you know, whether it's family wealth or community wealth, you cannot have a civilization.
00:55:44.700You know, you cannot have a civilization if you have a society that is this enormously destructive of individual sovereignty and individual and family wealth.
00:55:57.540And so he's literally, if you look at all these different areas, he's just constantly moving out, making, you know, trying to do what makes sense.
00:56:06.620And his understanding, because he's been an entrepreneur and a small businessman and a farmer and a rancher, he understands the economics bottom up.
00:56:18.020One of my favorite Thomas Massey stories I heard on your show, which was an amazing interview.
00:56:23.000I always make young people watch at least the second half of your interview with Massey.
00:56:28.320Yeah, when he's talking about how he figures, he gets, he busts the, he's the county mayor, essentially, and he busts the prisoners out of the jail to help them install a new hot water heater, because they can't afford to buy, you know, they have to buy a used one, they can't afford to buy a new one.
00:56:45.740Okay, so that's, you know, that's exactly the story.
00:57:21.080And he's going right at the heart of the issue, not because he wanted to, but because he's trying to do all these fundamentally productive things.
00:57:51.500And, you know, and that goes to the heart of the secret governance system and backdoor control.
00:57:57.820How does dual citizenship go to the heart of secret governance?
00:58:02.160Because the secret governance system controls through allowing people to operate above the law or have different incentives that put them outside of the system.
00:58:14.840And I think the dual citizenship is part of that process.
00:58:19.820At the most obvious level, you can be indicted for a crime in the United States and flee to the other country whose passport you hold.
00:58:27.320So, look at the sex offenders who literally have done terrible things with children in this country who've fleed to Israel and are protected.
00:58:37.720Dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens of them, not just a few.
00:58:41.680We had a high profile example of this recently, but it's been going on a really long time.
00:58:46.420That's the obvious, that's the most shocking kind of way.
00:58:49.040Wait, how do you get to, you know, try to molest a child and then flee to our closest ally and stay safe?
00:58:54.740But you're saying that this same principle applies to financial crimes and governance.
00:58:58.700So, I suspect one of the things I've never known is what is the full benefits of dual citizenship.
00:59:04.660But I suspect there are financial benefits as well.
00:59:28.160We've just seen two arrests in the UK coming out of the Epstein files, not for anything to do with sex, but the fact that they had compromised state secrets.
00:59:40.560So, but presumably, they did that in exchange for, you know, various benefits of being part of the network.
00:59:54.260In that case, I would, well, I would call it the Epstein network, but I'd really call it the Rothschild network.
01:00:01.100So, big picture, the takeaway from my perspective from the Epstein cursory reading of two million pages is that there's a government or a governance structure above governments.
01:00:14.280So, I would say that there are investment networks, and if you look at what Epstein, if you come to Solaria, we have a commentary up called, was Jeffrey Epstein the father of programmable money?
01:00:27.940Which I believe, you know, the answer is yes, or certainly one of them.
01:00:31.180And if you read, we're pointing to a Substack series written by a guy who writes anonymously under the name ESC, as in escape, ESC.
01:00:42.240And it's a marvelous thing, very well documented back to the Epstein files that we've now received, describing how Epstein, who I believe was laundering money, was allocating that money to all these different projects that helped develop crypto and programmable money.
01:01:01.180And, but what he describes in the process of one of those Substacks is traditionally, historically, for the last 150 years, how the Rothschild networks, and I would include Rockefeller and Rothschild as a sort of central banking network together, how they operate, both the family and then people who are sort of, ESC calls them the switchboard, the agents who sort of coordinate between the different houses and the network.
01:01:28.960And in one sense, it's a very informal network, but because it has the blessing of the central bankers, it receives a lot of protection from the intelligence agencies.
01:01:39.600And, you know, it's a networking function.
01:01:42.040And he does a very good job of describing how it operates as a functional matter.
01:01:47.320And that's, everything he writes is exactly what I saw in Washington and Wall Street.
01:01:52.720You have a layer of equity pools in and around the central banks that are engaged in trying to build forward in a variety of ways and position money and manage risk.
01:02:06.120And they are literally increasingly above the law.
01:02:09.680And they don't seem directly tied to any particular country.
01:02:18.400You know, they can operate within a country sphere, you know, but Epstein was basically global.
01:02:27.140And if you look at the programmable money and what he was doing to build programmable money, that required operation in both Europe, the United States, and around the world.
01:02:40.040So if you, China's economy is now bigger than the United States is, clearly China is going to be, at some point, likely the dominant world power.
01:03:15.040And I don't believe the Chinese government is going to allow its authority to be challenged by international pools of capital, at least in the East.
01:03:50.600China's strength is if you look at what they're doing with technology, their innovation and speed is astonishing and very, very impressive.
01:04:01.440And it's racing by the United States right now.
01:04:04.420So if you look at their demographic issues and they have very serious demographic issues and they have a very serious real estate crisis to be managed that has profound implications with the demographic problem.
01:04:21.860And because a lot of the retirement saving was put in real estate and now that real estate is down and they have an aging population, they've got some real issues.
01:04:31.520So they have a lot to manage and a lot of how they do depends on how successful their Silk Road innovation, you know, sort of investments work out for them.
01:04:42.320So, but I'm not convinced that they necessarily have to end up as the dominant world power.
01:04:50.160If you, you know, they've worked very hard for the last 10 to 15 years to make their currency acceptable as one of the basket of reserve currencies.
01:05:00.620And yet, if you look at how much the market share, it's limited.
01:05:08.200And I think one reason is the distrust of the Chinese is extraordinary because they are deeply, deeply committed to the superiority of the Han people.
01:05:20.760And so if you look at different experiences people have had with the Chinese, I think they have a real challenge to build trust.
01:05:28.380Now, the U.S. was able to build that kind of trust.
01:06:00.540And I think treasury's hope is that they can attract, you know, several billion, anywhere from four to ten billion trillion dollars into the treasury market with this mechanism by offering it globally.
01:06:15.840And if it's very successful at a retail level, it's going to pull a lot of money out of local banking systems all over the world.
01:06:22.360What's the advantage to using a stable coin?
01:06:24.840You know, I can't, stable coin proponents will say that it lowers transaction fees, which will probably be true internationally.
01:06:35.140But frankly, I can't think of one reason why I would ever, I have no intention of using any of them.
01:06:42.720You're against it, like philosophically and for, you know, for the reasons you've articulated, but it's like Amazon, Amazon's obviously bad, but everyone uses it because there are clear benefits.
01:06:54.580Are there clear benefits to the consumer in stable coin?
01:06:58.520So what will really come down is if you want to use a system on your mobile payment phone, you know, which will be better, Venmo or the stable coin?
01:07:06.860And it depends, a lot of that depends on what comes out in the negotiation next.
01:07:48.680Now let's talk about asset tokens because that's where the big float is going to come.
01:07:53.620So the Clarity Act is what is creating the, as the Genius Act created the framework for stable coins, the Clarity Act and its Senate version is creating the framework for digital assets and digital tokens.
01:08:10.680Now, Larry Fink and BlackRock have said they're planning on trading all stocks and bonds using tokens or digital assets.
01:08:19.180So they have not been clear operationally exactly how this is going to work.
01:08:25.060But what it means is this is going to be, you know, potentially a hundred, two hundred, three hundred trillion dollar market if they do it.
01:08:33.180And what that means is they want to be able to trade all financial assets worldwide on a distributive ledger that can be turned into programmable money.
01:08:42.420Now, if you talk to the people who are issuing stable coins now or working on the Clarity Act, they say, oh, we would never do that.
01:08:51.960But in fact, if you look at the stable coin bill, the Genius Act, it is set up and we have a big article about this on Solari.
01:08:59.420It is set up so that all stable coin issuers have to plug into the Treasury's pipe where the Treasury applies its know-your-customer, money laundering, and sanctions.
01:09:11.840And if you look at that pipe, that pipe can be integrated with a full social credit system.
01:09:17.580So whereas CBDC applies the rules through the central bank, the stable coins apply the rules through the Treasury.
01:09:24.420And so if we are working with states, we have, Solari has model legislation on stopping programmable money from being misused.
01:09:36.100And what we are saying to the states is, look, before the horse leaves the barn, you have to put the bridle and the saddle on the horse.
01:10:01.140They don't seem to be enthusiastic about it.
01:10:03.940And one of the interesting things is the Clarity Act has a provision that outlaws central bank digital currency.
01:10:10.320It's been thrown out of the Senate version.
01:10:13.620Apparently, they want to reserve the right of the central bank to do that.
01:10:16.740And apparently, congressmen have said that, both in the NDAA and another piece of legislation, the Speaker, Speaker Johnson, has stopped their amendments to stop central bank digital currency.
01:10:29.100They said he promised them that he would outlaw it.
01:10:32.060You know, the president had an executive order, promised, they believe they were promised that it would be turned into law.
01:10:40.340So, I'm deeply suspicious because if you look at what you can do with stable coins and digital tokens and digital assets, you can implement all programmable money.
01:10:53.500But if you leave the authority open to do CBDC, at some point, the central banks can come along once the system has gotten going.
01:11:00.000And so, my attitude is, look, if you guys say you're not going to do this, we can outlaw it now.
01:11:05.620Again, put the bridle and the, you know, the saddle on the horse before you leave the barn.
01:11:10.600And the barn, you know, if you end up with $250 trillion outstanding and you haven't put the bridle and saddle on, you got a problem.
01:11:18.500What would be the effect if we wind up with digital programmable currency?
01:11:22.680So, if we wind up with a 100% digital system, no cash, no paper money.
01:11:49.460But if we move there, then if I want you to not be able to leave your home, your money won't work if you leave your home.
01:12:04.340If I want you to only be able to eat certain foods and not, if I want you to be able to eat foods made with insects and not be able to buy real meat, your money won't work to buy real meat.
01:12:16.120So, if I want you to take a vaccine a month and I mandate vaccines for you and your family, if you don't, I'll turn off your money.
01:12:24.600So, I have complete control of your food, your health care, your spatial travel, everything.
01:12:31.960So, you are no longer in a democracy or a democratic republic.
01:12:38.780If I want your kids to leave their home and go to a boarding school where I control their education, if you don't agree, I turn off your money.
01:12:58.860Why would you want to do that to people?
01:13:00.520With that kind of control, I can bring out phenomenally powerful technology without worrying about it being weaponized.
01:13:10.880So, I can bring out breakthrough energy technology and not worry that I can't control how it gets used.
01:13:18.160I can manage a large population in a world where technology is changing without losing control.
01:13:29.020So, I can, a small group of people can control the many.
01:13:34.900And also, if I believe that with life science, I can live forever or for much longer lifetimes, I can either depopulate or control people who are angry that I'm living to be 145 and they're not.
01:13:50.480And I can basically keep them in check even though, you know, so the mega rich can live a very different luxurious life and control or shrink the rest of the population, you know, without fear because they have complete control.
01:14:10.680So, bottom line, in a time of radical technological change, which we're living through right now, the obvious, the first result is like societal chaos and revolutions and wars and that's why I got the Bolsheviks, etc., etc.
01:14:26.020The people pushing this technological change or watching it from positions of authority know this and so the control grid would allow the transition to whatever this technological future is without the downside of like a Bolshevik revolution.
01:14:40.040So, you know, in my experience, the people who run the financial system are first and foremost risk managers.
01:14:45.700They don't think in terms of making money, they print money out of thin air, but they're very deeply careful about risk and they're very afraid of the guillotine.
01:15:01.180It's hard to manage, you know, people.
01:15:05.140And if you look at coming into the development of digital technology and globalization, they had two choices.
01:15:11.540They could use this technology to build something that allowed explosive new decentralized wealth to be created, at which point, how did they make sure they stay in control, especially because you have so much going on that's secret?
01:15:30.100So how do you stay in control and can you create a bottom-up structure that will behave responsibly?
01:15:39.260And the hard part of behaving responsibly is you, as a manager of society, have to turn the aircraft carrier before you hit the iceberg.
01:15:49.340You don't trust the crowd to care until you hit the iceberg and then it's too late.
01:15:54.660So you decide, okay, we need a meritocracy.
01:16:17.840So, but I think they decided, okay, the only way we find managing the general population very frustrating, and it's back to the red button story.
01:16:28.640We find them very hypocritical and irresponsible and frustrating.
01:16:41.260The problem is once you get into complete control, you get an uber class of people who literally think of themselves as a different species.
01:17:03.680When you go from being an egalitarian society or at least a society that sees egalitarianism as the goal of a Christian society to something else, then the attitudes of the people in charge become so bad.
01:17:15.420Well, but here's what's interesting, because I have had a very unique life.
01:17:19.700And so I've had the privilege of living at the top, in the middle, and the bottom.
01:17:25.560And what's amazing when you go, you know, back and forth between these different groups, the people at the top have no clue why the people at the bottom are behaving the way they're behaving.
01:17:41.840They, I've spent my whole life in that group and, but with, you know, sojourns into other groups and the people at the top, especially now more than ever, believe that all criticism of them is hate.
01:18:26.700And I will tell you, I've said many times, if I have to go down the river, I want to go with people from Hickory Valley, Tennessee instead of.
01:18:36.020There's a whole world of people who've got 180 IQ in Silicon Valley and they are stupid as a tack because they float on it on rigged black budget and federal government money.
01:18:47.800They have no insight into fundamental economics.
01:18:52.120That's why I love Massey because Massey understands bottom-up economics and these, we have such a huge, you know, we have cycled brilliant people through universities and put them into places where they are so divorced from fundamental economics or the math of time and money because they are floating on a sea of black budget and government money.
01:19:16.140And it does have a corrosive effect on that class and then it reaches its kind of ugliest conclusion with Epstein who, like, in addition to everything else, is like kind of dumb.
01:19:26.220I read Epstein, or illiterate, certainly illiterate.
01:19:28.580I mean, I read his emails and I'm like, this guy, I wouldn't hire someone like that under any circumstance.
01:19:32.800These are the people who are telling us they're geniuses and we're mad at them because they're so smart?
01:21:19.340Like, if that's, do you know what I mean?
01:21:21.020Right, but here's the message of what she brought up.
01:21:25.420If people will allow you to poison and abuse and rape their children in exchange for keeping their 401ks up, you have no reason to respect them.
01:22:14.120So if you look at how we've allowed ourselves to fall behind in technology and in national security and in all the areas that matter to be strong on the outside, you know, we've put ourselves, it's one thing to have a corrupt leadership.
01:22:33.440It's another thing to have a corrupt, incompetent leadership.
01:22:36.140And what I would say is our leadership has not done, you know, if you disrespect the hoi polloi and you say, okay, I want to be the elite and have total control.
01:22:48.660Well, then you need to be competent at your job.
01:24:29.120Now, I don't underestimate the damage they can do before they fail.
01:24:32.880But, you know, one thing I will say about China, if there's an argument for China's success, it is because it has a Mandarin class and it has a tradition, you know, of hundreds of years of that Mandarin class.
01:24:46.400The reason I left Washington in 1998 and I said, I'm out, these guys are going to fail, is, you know, whether it's the group destroying the, you know, our equivalent of the Mandarin class or the Mandarin class itself, they did not have a culture, an ethic, a vision that could go the distance.
01:25:04.300They weren't good to build an advanced civilization.
01:25:23.200So, it has a long term arc and it has the discipline to achieve that by keeping each, making each individual sovereign with integrity, but disciplined to the vision and the order.
01:25:39.820So, you know, it doesn't let the power go to its head.
01:25:45.280I'll never forget when I first went to Washington, I was, I had been trained my whole life to deal with massive amounts of financial power without letting it go to my head.
01:25:55.960And you got to Washington and you could look around the room and you could see the people who also had that training.
01:26:02.760They knew this was not their money or their credit.
01:26:05.920It belonged to the country and they were there as a fiduciary for a temporary period of time to manage it.
01:26:13.560And they took the time to understand the laws and the rules and to collaborate with other people to do so.
01:26:20.600You got other people who were there, didn't have that background or training and suddenly it's my money, it's my portfolio, it goes to their head and they literally, you know, they get drunk on power and they can't handle it.
01:26:33.900It's like looking at an electrical system that can't handle that voltage.
01:26:38.560And, and they, they, you know, they melt down.
01:26:44.820And what you had, you've gone through a process in Washington where I saw all the people who had been trained the way I had been trained who got pushed out because they wouldn't break the law and they wouldn't do stupid things.
01:26:57.040And they got pushed out and you just got yes men, yes men, yes men.
01:27:00.680And now, now you've got something that has no, it doesn't have a culture that can handle the voltage.
01:27:08.560So, I feel like you see this even now.
01:27:15.200I noticed this during the trans thing, you know, I felt, felt like our leaders were pushing the transgender lunacy on everybody.