The Tucker Carlson Show - Charlie Sheen’s Craziest Hollywood Stories and Why He Refuses to Believe the Official Story of 9⧸11

00:00:00.000 So that interview that you did in 2011, the famous Tiger Blood interview, I watched that

00:00:05.740 and I have never forgotten it and I never will forget it.

00:00:10.280 And here was my takeaway.

00:00:11.260 My takeaway was this is a guy who's obviously on drugs, like there's a manic quality to

00:00:14.880 it, which I recognized.

00:00:17.200 But despite that, the life force and the talent, it was just so obvious.

00:00:24.680 And I thought to myself, how many actors, how many people could be whatever, an eight ball

00:00:31.160 in the bag or whatever was going on with you personally and talk like that and reveal so

00:00:37.920 much of themselves?

00:00:38.500 I just thought there was something really great, despite the craziness that came out of that

00:00:43.740 interview.

00:00:44.720 And when I heard that you had gotten sober and were happy and pulled your life through

00:00:49.560 and all that stuff, I was just thrilled.

00:00:51.100 Thank you.

00:00:51.700 For you.

00:00:52.080 I mean that.

00:00:52.620 Thank you.

00:00:53.000 I just want to get that out of the way.

00:00:53.920 Thank you.

00:00:54.420 And that's why I wanted to talk to you.

00:00:55.940 I just thought that interview revealed something really impressive about you.

00:01:00.860 Wow.

00:01:01.540 Wow.

00:01:22.360 Not everyone felt that way.

00:01:23.540 No, that is, um, that is the only, I mean.

00:01:29.760 I'm the only person to compliment that interview.

00:01:31.320 Up to this moment in time in my life, that is the only positive review.

00:01:35.640 Is that true?

00:01:36.200 I've ever received with that interview.

00:01:38.400 Oh yeah.

00:01:39.060 So this is, this is.

00:01:40.080 Oh, I could just see it.

00:01:41.200 I'm going to sit inside this moment for a second.

00:01:43.440 Well, I was grading on a drug curve having, you know, used drugs candidly and I'm very against

00:01:48.020 drugs, just to be clear.

00:01:48.800 But I was like, if someone can talk like that while he's impaired, that's crazy.

00:01:56.340 Thank you.

00:01:57.000 Um, what did people, what did people other than me think about that interview?

00:02:00.520 Oh, just that it was the, uh, it was, it was, it was the beginning of the end.

00:02:05.380 It was, uh, it, uh, it was the moment when, when the, um, yeah.

00:02:11.540 When, when, when it did just, I had completely left the reservation and there was.

00:02:16.700 Well, that, that's fair.

00:02:18.180 Yeah.

00:02:18.660 Um, that, that, um, I think people might have, uh, respected the commitment to it that, uh,

00:02:25.660 that, that, that I, that I knew there was no turning back, you know?

00:02:29.500 I do respect that.

00:02:30.940 I mean, right.

00:02:32.020 You burned your boats.

00:02:33.280 Yeah.

00:02:33.800 If you're going to go, I mean, all the way, it's the only direction that you know, right?

00:02:38.440 Um, you, you, you definitely went.

00:02:41.540 How long, so do people approach you and say, you got to make a change or do they stop talking

00:02:46.440 to you or like how, what was the response?

00:02:48.620 Oh, you mean right after that?

00:02:49.520 Yeah.

00:02:50.480 Um, yeah, it, I, um, there was, there was fallout.

00:02:55.920 There was fallout, you know, especially what was going on with the network and the show and

00:02:59.720 all, you know, all the, um, all the, all the high stakes elements in, in play, you know?

00:03:04.740 Um, yeah, I, I, I, I, it's weird cause I, I've, I've watched it and I've watched it

00:03:11.440 just on this recent tour as it's been referenced and played and in clips and stuff and, and

00:03:16.500 it's, it's, uh, it's like watching somebody else.

00:03:22.540 Yeah.

00:03:22.940 It's like, it's like, I kind of look the same.

00:03:25.720 I mean, I look kind of the beat up version of me, the very fatigued version of me.

00:03:32.400 Um, sound at sleep was not, you know, something I, not on the menu.

00:03:36.440 I picked up there.

00:03:37.180 Yeah.

00:03:37.440 No.

00:03:37.620 No.

00:03:38.240 Um, and it's interesting, the, um, the quality of my voice, did you notice that?

00:03:43.780 No.

00:03:44.120 Just the grovel and the depth and the thing.

00:03:46.100 And I was like, yeah, that was from the testosterone cream, which I was doing heaping amounts of

00:03:53.920 in the, in, in the book.

00:03:55.720 I describe it as a slathering on like a, like a fricking Pons commercial.

00:03:59.680 So what that's, it's, it's interesting that everyone's all for hormone treatments now for

00:04:04.880 kids, but I think it's still forbidden to want to use testosterone cream.

00:04:09.320 I've never used anything like that, but I'm interested.

00:04:13.180 Like, what does that do?

00:04:14.460 It was, um, in the doses, it was, it was prescribed and, and, and recommended to be, uh, applied

00:04:20.240 at, um, the, uh, you know, following those dosage guidelines.

00:04:25.600 Um, it was, it was for enhanced, you know, sexual enhancement, uh, uh, more lean muscle

00:04:33.020 mass, more energy.

00:04:34.660 Uh, when you exceed those, you know, uh, 40 X, um, then it, it, it, it, it can metabolize

00:04:42.520 into what, what's essentially a roid rage.

00:04:46.720 Wow.

00:04:47.340 So there, that was a lot about what was going on during that whole thing.

00:04:51.440 That's why I couldn't, that's why I couldn't pull the train back into the station.

00:04:54.900 You know, that once it, uh, once it got away from me, um, you just become the incredible

00:05:01.340 Hulk.

00:05:01.820 Pretty much.

00:05:02.480 Yeah.

00:05:03.360 Yeah.

00:05:03.960 Um, but it's, but just during this time and even, you know, working on some of that, uh,

00:05:10.740 that chapter in the book, um, it, there, there's something that dawned on me.

00:05:16.240 It's like, I turned into the, I, I became that thing that, the, which I, I, I detest most.

00:05:22.620 And that was a bully.

00:05:24.640 Yeah.

00:05:25.220 I became a bully, you know, and, and I could say, I was bullied as a kid and I wanted to

00:05:29.200 see how it felt from the other side.

00:05:31.400 So what?

00:05:32.220 Right.

00:05:32.680 Um, it, it didn't, it didn't feel good from the other side, you know, bullying is still

00:05:38.520 like not cool.

00:05:39.800 Yeah.

00:05:40.260 Still sucks.

00:05:41.940 Um, would you recommend testosterone lower doses?

00:05:44.960 Um, I would, I would, cause I've, in, in recent years have, have, have used it responsibly

00:05:52.280 and have, have, have gotten, have gotten the results that were promised or that, that,

00:05:57.580 that, that I was expecting.

00:05:58.980 Yeah.

00:05:59.600 Is there a downside to responsible use?

00:06:03.760 I, I don't, I don't, I hope not.

00:06:06.260 I don't know.

00:06:07.620 I don't know.

00:06:08.320 They are finding a downside, uh, uh, you know, in long-term use to, uh, HGH, to human

00:06:14.960 growth hormone, you know?

00:06:16.740 Um, I believe that.

00:06:18.160 Yeah.

00:06:18.760 If it's gonna, if it's gonna make things grow, then if you got, you know, if you got a tumor

00:06:23.420 or something that's, that's kind of been lurking, it can bring that thing, um, into, you know,

00:06:30.180 some larger form.

00:06:31.480 Yeah.

00:06:31.780 Yeah.

00:06:32.100 Men with prostate cancer have, typically have their testosterone reduced medically.

00:06:38.080 Gotcha.

00:06:38.500 Because it, it feeds the tumor.

00:06:40.560 So that makes sense.

00:06:41.440 Yeah.

00:06:42.060 I don't, I don't use shaving cream or fluoride toothpaste, so it's like not my world, but

00:06:46.420 I'm interested.

00:06:48.020 Have you tried the toothpaste from, uh, wellness?

00:06:51.160 No, I use the Dr. Bronner's.

00:06:53.320 Oh, okay.

00:06:53.980 Okay.

00:06:54.420 Yeah.

00:06:54.640 We grew up on Dr. Bronner's.

00:06:55.860 So did I.

00:06:56.340 That's why I use it.

00:06:57.200 Yeah.

00:06:57.300 We ate his chips and everything.

00:06:58.840 Yeah.

00:06:59.160 It was the Southern California thing in the seventies.

00:07:00.860 You remember Healthy Hunza?

00:07:02.400 No, but I just, you know, you use the Castile soap with all the weird sayings on the side.

00:07:08.260 We are one.

00:07:09.220 It was like a hangout from the hippie era.

00:07:11.060 That's the stuff my mom bought us.

00:07:13.260 Yes.

00:07:13.580 Exactly.

00:07:14.140 Yeah.

00:07:14.360 That's exactly how I grew up.

00:07:16.220 Yeah.

00:07:16.960 And I still use it to this day.

00:07:19.020 Oh, really?

00:07:19.640 Yes, I do.

00:07:20.220 Wow.

00:07:20.620 Awesome.

00:07:20.740 I no longer use Dr. Zog's Surf Wax.

00:07:23.740 Remember that?

00:07:24.300 Best for your stick.

00:07:25.280 That's right.

00:07:25.900 That probably doesn't exist, but, um, so you got better.

00:07:30.320 You got sober after that.

00:07:32.560 How long did it take from that interview till sobriety?

00:07:35.140 Um, so that was 2011?

00:07:40.380 Yep.

00:07:40.580 Yeah, no, it, it, it got pretty dark after that.

00:07:46.780 Um, even though I did another, somehow managed to do another TV show, like it's still in

00:07:52.400 the middle of all that.

00:07:53.200 But, you know, I mean, I was able to pull it back and, and, and, and present, you know,

00:07:58.540 nicely enough, um, you know, at least walk into a room and, and, and.

00:08:02.880 Well, can I actually, can I just go back just a sec?

00:08:04.700 Sure, sure.

00:08:05.000 One of the things I loved about that interview was the hostility that you so clearly had.

00:08:08.720 I mean, it just was obvious toward like the whole class of people who profit from the

00:08:14.640 creatives in Los Angeles.

00:08:16.140 Right.

00:08:16.860 And, you know, the agents, the managers, just that whole constellation, um, of people and

00:08:22.480 you clearly were at war with them.

00:08:25.060 And yet the way the system is set up, even now you were telling me at breakfast, like it's

00:08:30.060 necessary.

00:08:30.440 Like you, you can't really work without participating in that system.

00:08:33.380 So how did you fix those relationships?

00:08:37.220 Time, just over time and, and, and just, uh, you know, working on myself, um, and, and,

00:08:46.420 uh, yeah.

00:08:47.520 And, and, and, you know, those relationships can only be fixed if, um, if both parties are

00:08:55.580 still in the game, you know?

00:08:57.640 Um, so I think, I think that helped.

00:08:59.540 Um, but the stuff I talk about in the book, uh, about that time was that, um, it was that

00:09:08.480 tour that, that really, um, was ill-advised, you know?

00:09:13.160 And that was not my idea.

00:09:14.720 And, and I'm still not sure how I allowed myself to get talked into it, you know?

00:09:19.980 Um, yeah.

00:09:20.920 Everybody blames Mark Berg, but it wasn't Mark's, it really, really wasn't Mark's brainchild.

00:09:24.820 It was like, it was Live Nation.

00:09:26.900 They, they, they watched all of that and like their, they, it, through their filter, they

00:09:33.680 saw that as taking that on the road.

00:09:37.140 Yeah.

00:09:37.400 We got to get this man into expensive hotel rooms.

00:09:40.180 Exactly.

00:09:41.320 Exactly.

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00:12:56.020 Well, it's not even about the performances, but the experience of being on the road,

00:12:59.620 which anyone who's ever done it can tell you.

00:13:02.080 I mean, there's a reason so many performers wind up with these really tragic personal lives,

00:13:06.260 which is like being on the road is not good for you at all.

00:13:08.800 Yeah, no, it was especially really not good for me.

00:13:13.120 I mean, on a good day, it's not good for a good person.

00:13:15.720 Yeah.

00:13:16.100 But an addicted person is just going to...

00:13:18.320 So what happened?

00:13:19.440 What was it like?

00:13:20.040 It was 21 cities in like 31 days with no act.

00:13:27.060 With no act.

00:13:27.880 But Jeff Ross did come in and rescue a good portion of it.

00:13:33.020 So that was...

00:13:33.740 Did they call Jeff like midway through and...

00:13:35.620 They called him like right after the second show.

00:13:40.900 Yeah.

00:13:41.520 I mean, we bombed right out of the gate.

00:13:44.540 So what was that like?

00:13:45.600 It was awful.

00:13:46.320 It was awful.

00:13:47.540 Did you know that it was bad when it was happening?

00:13:49.420 Oh, yeah.

00:13:50.420 Oh, yeah.

00:13:50.900 No, it was an absolute train wreck.

00:13:53.460 It was a complete bed shit.

00:13:55.440 I'm upset.

00:13:56.140 No, it's fine.

00:13:57.200 I'm sorry to laugh at your misfortune.

00:13:58.820 No, I'll take it because there's a thing I talk about in the book that, you know,

00:14:03.500 Hemingway's, you know, to become a man, you know, his list, right?

00:14:14.240 You got to fight a bull.

00:14:16.500 You got to have a son and plant a tree.

00:14:18.300 Yeah.

00:14:18.660 Right.

00:14:18.940 He left out being booed off stage in Detroit on opening night.

00:14:26.020 Yeah, it was...

00:14:27.240 We didn't make it to the second act.

00:14:31.020 Wow.

00:14:32.080 And then Simon Rex, you know who he is?

00:14:34.080 No.

00:14:34.600 He's an actor and he'd done some rapping and he had this one song that I really dug.

00:14:39.940 And so he was going to perform it, you know, and I was getting pelted with stuff like,

00:14:44.220 like, not food, but like programs and shoes and whatever anybody could throw.

00:14:50.560 And he was in the wings.

00:14:52.180 And so I started like motioning him out.

00:14:54.660 So you're actually on stage.

00:14:55.980 Oh, yeah.

00:14:56.840 Yeah.

00:14:57.140 And it's turning violent.

00:15:00.500 We're like on the verge of bedlam.

00:15:03.340 And so I wave him out and I switch places with him.

00:15:07.900 I'm done.

00:15:08.400 It's over.

00:15:09.380 And he tried to do his song and they kept...

00:15:11.920 They went harder on him.

00:15:14.560 And then he told me afterwards, he said, dude, you can't, like, you have to...

00:15:18.080 He says, you completely overlooked the fact that you brought a white rapper out on stage

00:15:24.180 in Detroit who wasn't Eminem and expected the crowd to be satisfied, you know?

00:15:30.340 Wait, but we're skipping over.

00:15:33.220 Yeah, yeah.

00:15:33.440 Sorry.

00:15:33.680 Like the key part, which is what did you do to make the crowd so mad?

00:15:38.020 Stuck to the script.

00:15:39.740 There was absolute dog shit.

00:15:41.420 This thing that I built back home thinking, yeah, and then we'll do this and then we'll

00:15:44.860 do that.

00:15:45.320 And then the girls will come out and just all this stuff that I was imagining would be

00:15:49.240 crowd pleasing stuff.

00:15:50.340 But they just literally wanted me on stage just screaming those dumb slogans.

00:15:55.680 They wanted more tiger blood.

00:15:57.260 Yeah.

00:15:57.680 They wanted, you know, more seven gram rocks.

00:16:00.480 They wanted more Adonis DNA.

00:16:02.560 And what I, you know, finally explain in the book is that none of that, the biggest irony

00:16:07.820 in this whole thing, none of that stuff was my original material.

00:16:13.060 I didn't cook all that stuff up.

00:16:16.540 No, it came from a phone call from a baseball player, like three days before I sat down for

00:16:22.120 the interview.

00:16:23.660 And it was, it was, I think it was delivered as a pep talk.

00:16:27.260 Like in some dugout?

00:16:28.700 No.

00:16:29.480 There's a guy named Brian Wilson.

00:16:30.840 He, he, he used to pitch for the Giants.

00:16:32.640 They called him the beard, right?

00:16:34.980 Great ball player, super dude.

00:16:36.980 And I was watching a highlight package of him one night and I just, I don't know, there

00:16:42.540 was something about his magnetism, his presence, all of it.

00:16:45.380 Right.

00:16:45.780 And I told my friend, Tony Todd, I said, get, get him on the phone.

00:16:49.480 I want to, I want to speak to that man.

00:16:51.060 Right.

00:16:51.700 And the next day I was on the phone with him.

00:16:54.700 And, um, I think it was before the season started.

00:16:57.480 And he, he just, he, he just volunteered.

00:17:02.080 He said, it's a, it's a pleasure to talk to you, man.

00:17:04.180 And it was already known that, that, that, that, um, that, you know, the training left

00:17:08.080 the tracks with my show and the beef with Chuck and all that stuff was already in play.

00:17:12.760 So he says to me, he says, you know, we're not like other people.

00:17:16.660 We're not, we're, we're, we're, we're different, man.

00:17:19.240 We got, we, you know, we got, we got tiger blood running through our veins.

00:17:22.260 We got a, uh, we got a substrate of Adonis DNA that doesn't allow guys like us to ever

00:17:27.300 lose because we're always winning.

00:17:29.140 Right.

00:17:29.580 This is all him giving me this material.

00:17:33.780 So, and he's, he's probably thinking, cool, man, that's gonna, that's gonna make him feel

00:17:38.740 better at least, at least for today.

00:17:41.200 And, uh, you know, maybe, maybe he'll, he'll, you know, make some progress with this other

00:17:45.780 mess.

00:17:46.200 Right.

00:17:46.880 And then the interview comes around and there was something that she did.

00:17:51.000 So it was not, no part of it was her fault.

00:17:53.880 I mean, no part of it.

00:17:54.640 It was the ABC lady.

00:17:55.620 Yeah.

00:17:56.060 Uh, Andrea Canning.

00:17:57.260 And so she made a crack to the two gals that I had shacked up with.

00:18:01.180 Right.

00:18:01.560 And, and then she tried to continue like onto her next question.

00:18:05.500 And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

00:18:07.220 You, you owe them an apology.

00:18:09.580 And she was like, uh, yeah, okay.

00:18:11.100 My bad.

00:18:11.660 I'm, I'm, I apologize.

00:18:13.040 I'm sorry.

00:18:13.400 I'm like, thank you.

00:18:14.560 And so then she tried to continue the interview and I started grinding on it.

00:18:18.820 I wouldn't let it go, even though she apologized and we should have just moved past it.

00:18:23.680 And we didn't.

00:18:24.940 And, um, and so that's, that's when the whole thing just came out.

00:18:30.500 I, I suddenly felt like I'm, I'm going to be delivering another interview and checking

00:18:37.040 every box that they want.

00:18:39.240 And I'm supposed to show remorse and I'm supposed to show, you know, all of those, all those

00:18:45.360 things that, that, that, you know, that, that, that you sit down and do that interview

00:18:50.140 and, and deliver, you know.

00:18:52.640 Which, I mean, that was the point of the interview, right?

00:18:54.820 That was set up because you have to go through this ritual.

00:18:57.840 Right.

00:18:58.580 Yeah.

00:18:59.020 I think that's what they were expecting.

00:19:01.560 And I think I might've agreed to it on those terms.

00:19:05.880 And, uh, yeah, I, I, I, I flipped the script sort of midway through and then I had all of

00:19:14.520 his material and it was just kind of like, you know, it was there, man.

00:19:17.520 It was on standby.

00:19:18.360 It was kind of, kind of on a loop, just looking for the right venue and there it was.

00:19:23.000 And it all just flew out.

00:19:25.580 And that, that's what started that whole thing.

00:19:28.380 Did he call you?

00:19:30.360 Did he see it?

00:19:31.420 The, the ball player?

00:19:32.080 Oh yeah.

00:19:32.420 He was probably like, oh my God, what have I done?

00:19:35.100 What have I done?

00:19:36.280 I gave, I gave my best stuff to the wrong guy or the most right guy ever, you know?

00:19:42.200 So I felt maybe I'm shallow.

00:19:44.080 I'll just, I felt you created a kind of art.

00:19:46.140 I felt like that was like a.

00:19:47.320 Thank you.

00:19:48.040 I did think that.

00:19:48.540 No, that's cool.

00:19:49.080 I do think that.

00:19:49.380 That's awesome.

00:19:50.100 Thank you.

00:19:51.180 Um, and most lines are other people's lines.

00:19:53.340 So there's no shame in that.

00:19:54.540 Thank you.

00:19:55.020 Okay, good, good.

00:19:56.120 Yeah.

00:19:56.380 Um, no.

00:19:58.280 Oh, and for years I didn't want, I didn't think it was fair to, to trying to lasso him

00:20:04.480 into the craziness.

00:20:05.720 So I always kept it, kept him out of it.

00:20:09.480 I kept Brian out of it, which I felt was the right thing to do.

00:20:12.620 And then, and then over time I did start admitting that, yeah, that, that, that, that wasn't my

00:20:19.200 material.

00:20:19.760 It didn't come up with any of that stuff originally.

00:20:22.280 Um, and then with the book and this tour, I've just said, yeah, it was, it was, it was

00:20:28.760 Brian, it was that guy.

00:20:30.240 Do you still talk to him?

00:20:30.980 Um, yeah, I, I spoke to him about a year ago because we asked him, uh, to be in the doc

00:20:38.140 and he said he was going to do it and they needed a change.

00:20:41.600 He just changed his mind, didn't want to.

00:20:43.180 And that's fine.

00:20:44.060 That's fine.

00:20:45.040 Um, he doesn't have to revisit it.

00:20:48.940 Um, I, I kind of do so.

00:20:50.960 And well, I was telling stories in, uh, about it in the doc where I was already anticipating

00:20:57.960 them cutting to him for his side of it.

00:21:01.680 So it would have made sense if, if, if he was there, but no, I don't, there's no love

00:21:06.380 lost at all about that, you know?

00:21:09.920 Yeah.

00:21:10.400 I mean, I don't know.

00:21:11.820 I'm, I'm again, totally pro sobriety.

00:21:13.920 On the other hand, it's just nice to see vigor in a man in a world filled with men without

00:21:19.640 vigor that, you know, I'll take a little craziness.

00:21:22.660 I just wrote that word to somebody yesterday.

00:21:25.660 Which?

00:21:26.400 Vigor.

00:21:27.460 Yeah.

00:21:27.680 It's much needed.

00:21:28.440 Yeah.

00:21:28.740 No, somebody wrote something to me.

00:21:30.300 Hey, this thing, or did you guys do this?

00:21:33.720 Something, something.

00:21:34.380 And I, and I, I was sitting there for like four minutes and I finally wrote back with

00:21:40.680 vigor.

00:21:41.520 Yeah, exactly.

00:21:42.720 So.

00:21:43.600 Yeah.

00:21:43.860 We did a little Teddy Roosevelt.

00:21:45.280 Right.

00:21:45.480 And I saw a little cocaine infused Teddy Roosevelt in that, uh.

00:21:48.360 In that interview.

00:21:50.140 So you go on tour, Live Nation decides, hey, we can profit from this guy.

00:21:53.720 Sure.

00:21:54.240 Yeah.

00:21:54.640 Not to impute low motives to Live Nation.

00:21:57.340 No, of course not.

00:21:58.080 No, no.

00:21:58.680 Yes.

00:21:59.320 Um, and so you, and you bombed the first two nights.

00:22:03.080 So then they called Jeff Ross, the Toastmaster General to come in and save, which not stupid

00:22:06.640 actually.

00:22:07.260 No.

00:22:07.580 Did he do a good job?

00:22:08.240 He did a great job.

00:22:08.920 Yeah, of course.

00:22:09.340 He did a great job.

00:22:10.140 But what, what surprised me is that the, the set that he rolled out with, uh, he showed

00:22:16.380 up in a hazmat suit, like he was there to clean up a, you know, the radioactive spill,

00:22:21.740 right?

00:22:22.100 Which he kind of was.

00:22:23.900 Um, and the crowd loved it and his jokes were terrific.

00:22:27.820 And I'm like, wow.

00:22:28.900 And then I just figured he would be, then we get to the next city and, um, he would come

00:22:35.500 out with a different set.

00:22:36.660 Um, and he didn't, he just stuck to the, the, the, the ones he had assembled and built

00:22:43.140 and, and, and they already killed and he figured that the next city hadn't heard them yet, but

00:22:48.080 everything was in the paper.

00:22:49.480 Cause there's no internet or something.

00:22:51.240 Yeah.

00:22:51.520 Um, and he just stayed with it, you know?

00:22:54.240 Ooh.

00:22:54.680 And then one night he couldn't make it.

00:22:57.220 So, um, do you know who Chuck Zito is?

00:23:00.000 Yeah.

00:23:00.400 Yeah.

00:23:00.760 So Chuck was helping me with security during the tour and I said, Chuck, I think it's going

00:23:04.880 to be funny if like you, you come out and just take the podium and say, uh, Jeff Ross

00:23:09.740 couldn't make it tonight.

00:23:10.560 So, uh, I have, I have his material and I'm just going to go through them one by one.

00:23:17.000 And he did.

00:23:18.400 And it bombed.

00:23:19.600 It bombed, but it bombed.

00:23:21.800 Your security guy read Jeff Ross's set.

00:23:24.560 Yeah.

00:23:25.120 Yeah.

00:23:25.400 Wearing his leather jacket and the whole thing.

00:23:27.200 Not Jeff's.

00:23:28.100 Chuck's.

00:23:28.360 It's like so meta, actually.

00:23:29.460 I would have enjoyed that.

00:23:30.860 Yeah.

00:23:31.100 I, I did enjoy it.

00:23:32.280 It's kind of high concept.

00:23:33.240 I was on stage.

00:23:34.460 For a stadium show.

00:23:35.820 Racking up.

00:23:36.160 Yeah.

00:23:37.000 Yeah.

00:23:37.300 So Chuck's, you know, filled in for Jeff Ross.

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00:27:48.960 So when you get off stage the first two nights when you bomb and people are throwing things at you,

00:27:53.860 giving you the old Islamic shoe treatment,

00:27:57.220 what do your people say when you get back?

00:28:00.540 They're like, good job, Charlie.

00:28:01.480 No, they were like, huh, okay, we really have to sit down and figure out if there's any way,

00:28:07.420 like, what is it going to cost you to issue, like, all of those refunds?

00:28:11.560 They were, yeah.

00:28:12.240 Oh, refunds?

00:28:13.160 Yeah.

00:28:13.680 Actually, the second, it was really just the first night.

00:28:16.340 I was wrong about that because something did happen between Detroit and Chicago.

00:28:21.840 Something usually does.

00:28:23.140 Yeah, right, between those two cities.

00:28:24.900 Yes, it's happening.

00:28:25.820 Especially on a tour bus, right?

00:28:27.220 No, so I said, okay, everything that we had planned,

00:28:34.200 just leave it right where it belongs, in the toilet, where it wound up,

00:28:38.580 in the sewer, in the gutter.

00:28:39.760 We are scrapping everything.

00:28:42.220 And they said, okay, all right, good start.

00:28:46.960 Good, you know, okay, cool, Sheen, you're reading the room, man.

00:28:51.240 Was it the shoes?

00:28:53.540 Yeah, partly it was that last high heel.

00:28:57.820 And I said, I think I have a fix.

00:29:01.040 And they were like, well, do you want to share it?

00:29:02.180 I'm like, no, no, I don't have it yet.

00:29:03.680 So I'm going to ride the tour bus.

00:29:06.820 I'm not going to fly.

00:29:08.080 I'm going to take the bus from Detroit to Chicago by myself.

00:29:11.840 And I just need a notepad and two pens.

00:29:15.660 And I did.

00:29:16.540 And I just rewrote the entire show alone on that trip,

00:29:21.440 knowing that it was do or die.

00:29:24.820 Because I knew that tour was also, it was the child support tour.

00:29:30.740 Oh, yeah.

00:29:32.620 Yeah, because Warners was hanging on to all my dough.

00:29:35.360 They were keeping my dough hostage because I'd violated all the morals clauses.

00:29:40.020 And I acted in bad faith.

00:29:42.020 And therefore, they didn't have to pay me what they owed me, you know.

00:29:45.140 And I was like, well, hold on a minute.

00:29:47.240 Anyway, they ultimately had to.

00:29:48.720 But I had to assume to get my scratch.

00:29:52.820 Yeah.

00:29:53.280 Yeah.

00:29:53.640 How about that?

00:29:54.900 I'm not surprised.

00:29:56.400 So anyway, yeah.

00:29:57.680 So I did go on that thing.

00:29:59.920 There were some noble motives behind it.

00:30:05.740 Or motivation, rather.

00:30:08.120 Just to have some dough to, you know, keep everybody housed and fed.

00:30:12.680 Right.

00:30:13.100 Because you have a big tribe.

00:30:15.200 Yeah.

00:30:16.020 Yeah.

00:30:16.540 Big enough.

00:30:18.000 And so.

00:30:19.080 Bigger than average.

00:30:19.960 Bigger than average.

00:30:20.920 Yeah.

00:30:21.300 I mean that as a compliment.

00:30:22.280 Yeah.

00:30:22.480 Thank you.

00:30:23.200 Thank you.

00:30:24.040 Yeah.

00:30:24.640 And plenty of room at any stage of it.

00:30:28.600 At any table that we sit down at.

00:30:30.960 There's plenty of room for everyone, you know.

00:30:32.800 Beautiful.

00:30:33.400 Thank you.

00:30:33.960 And so we get to Chicago.

00:30:36.760 And so I go there in the morning.

00:30:39.160 And they're like, what are you doing here?

00:30:40.380 The talent never shows up until five minutes for, you know, sound check or whatever.

00:30:43.820 And I said, I just need to see.

00:30:45.100 I need to see the theater.

00:30:46.000 I need to feel the building.

00:30:47.500 And I'm like, okay.

00:30:48.940 Where were you playing in Chicago?

00:30:50.100 Do you remember?

00:30:51.040 I couldn't tell you at gunpoint.

00:30:54.060 Chicago theater probably.

00:30:55.280 Yeah.

00:30:55.780 Yeah.

00:30:56.620 It was nice.

00:30:57.280 It was vintage.

00:30:57.880 It felt dumb.

00:30:58.420 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:30:58.800 That's a bit.

00:30:59.880 Yeah.

00:31:00.520 So, so I basically decided that it was just going to be like with a moderator.

00:31:09.900 Right?

00:31:10.380 Smart.

00:31:10.800 Yeah.

00:31:11.140 And I said, I just need two chairs, you know, just that they, you know, facing each other

00:31:16.960 just behind the curtain.

00:31:19.120 And I wrote this letter and I'm sure it's on video somewhere.

00:31:23.580 And, and I wrote, and I wanted the chairs just behind the curtain.

00:31:28.280 So I could come, I could walk out first, deliver this, this love letter to Chicago about, you

00:31:35.440 know, what happened in Detroit.

00:31:37.140 And the whole thing was a mislead about, you know, I've, I've, I've, I've fought in the

00:31:41.220 jungles of Vietnam.

00:31:42.240 I've, I've been through the, the, the, the, the, the, the hellscape of, of, you know, the

00:31:50.220 volcanoes of, you know, just this whole, like, you know, like mythological, just this thing

00:31:58.740 where it felt like, and then the whole thing kind of ends with, and that was just opening

00:32:04.520 night in Detroit.

00:32:06.080 And I said, and then, then the whole place went nuts and I knew I had them.

00:32:10.940 And then the curtains parted and we sat in the chairs and we just talked about everything.

00:32:15.420 We just talked about it.

00:32:17.120 How did, how did it play?

00:32:18.020 It played great.

00:32:19.480 And then everybody, you know, all the Live Nation guys and, you know, the agent types and

00:32:24.360 everybody that was around, they were like, you rescued the show, man.

00:32:27.520 Good for you.

00:32:28.580 You rescued the show.

00:32:29.920 Well, sincerely, good for you.

00:32:31.000 No, it was, it was, it was cool.

00:32:32.380 And so we went with that and then that kind of petered out because it wasn't like at the,

00:32:37.300 at the energy level that everyone was anticipating.

00:32:39.280 Because you weren't pivoting against disaster.

00:32:41.940 Exactly.

00:32:42.480 Yeah.

00:32:43.000 Yeah.

00:32:43.540 And then that's, then a little bit later, they, that's when they brought Jeff in.

00:32:48.200 Because we're like, okay, we got, we got, we got our, you know, we got, we got our bearings.

00:32:52.640 Let's, let's, let's ramp it up.

00:32:54.160 But in a, in a, in a sense, you know, just in a, in a, in a sensible way, I think.

00:32:59.320 What did you think of working live like that?

00:33:01.720 Um, it was exciting.

00:33:04.900 Yeah.

00:33:05.300 It was exciting.

00:33:06.340 Yeah.

00:33:06.840 And I, I, I made the decision to, um, start entering from the back of the auditorium, you

00:33:14.220 know, like.

00:33:15.400 Not from backstage, but from the audience side.

00:33:17.700 Like from like the exit door.

00:33:19.520 Yeah.

00:33:19.880 Yeah.

00:33:20.640 Just, um, I don't know.

00:33:22.300 I don't know why.

00:33:23.020 It just, um, it was just cool.

00:33:25.420 Just, everybody was expecting me there when I, I would run up the aisle, high five and

00:33:31.220 everyone, you know, and just to break it up, just to keep it.

00:33:34.060 I don't know.

00:33:34.600 Yeah.

00:33:35.160 No, it was a trip.

00:33:36.160 I've, I've, I've seen the shows that you've done.

00:33:37.900 Yeah.

00:33:38.040 No, I love it.

00:33:38.820 I, I hope that that whole form continues, whether I can participate in it or not.

00:33:43.460 Sure.

00:33:43.620 Because I think it's important for people to be physically present with each other.

00:33:46.880 You seem really comfortable in those situations.

00:33:49.060 Well, I like people.

00:33:49.980 Yeah.

00:33:50.380 But you, you, you.

00:33:51.220 I like to smell people.

00:33:52.540 Yeah.

00:33:52.820 I don't like, that's my main problem.

00:33:54.500 The internet is I think it just disaggregates people from actual people.

00:33:58.520 Sure.

00:33:58.720 There's no, it was like, there's a person there, but everyone's sort of reduced to his

00:34:02.400 dumbest opinion or most provocative opinion.

00:34:05.860 I'm not against those obviously, but I think that's not the whole story about people.

00:34:09.800 And it's just, I just like people.

00:34:11.520 It's good to be with people.

00:34:12.700 I like physical contact.

00:34:14.080 I hate the COVID era because of its lack of physical contact.

00:34:18.900 I just, I mean, these are not like groundbreaking ideas, but no, I just like being with people.

00:34:23.660 Sure.

00:34:24.060 Yeah.

00:34:24.160 For sure.

00:34:25.280 What's the point otherwise?

00:34:27.160 Yeah.

00:34:28.500 So how much were you partying on tour?

00:34:30.980 Not.

00:34:32.760 Really?

00:34:33.260 Yeah.

00:34:33.380 See that?

00:34:33.840 And I covered that in the book also is that they sent the head of the network, Les Moonves,

00:34:39.720 to my house with the, with the, with the Warner jet, like fueled up and idling on the runway

00:34:45.780 to take me to rehab.

00:34:47.000 Look, right after the ABC interview?

00:34:48.300 Yes.

00:34:48.780 Yes.

00:34:49.140 And I said, I said, I, I, I appreciate it.

00:34:52.900 Um, it's also less, not lost on me that, uh, that this is the first time that the jets

00:34:58.540 ever been made available to me during the whole run of two and a half.

00:35:02.260 Right.

00:35:02.960 Was to put me in rehab.

00:35:05.160 That's fine.

00:35:05.760 Um, and I said, but I'm going to, I'm going to do this at home.

00:35:10.080 I'm going to do this at home.

00:35:11.440 Um, and then the look on his face was a man.

00:35:13.840 I felt he, he, he, he, he was saddened.

00:35:17.680 He actually felt for me.

00:35:19.400 I could, I could see that.

00:35:20.680 Good for him.

00:35:21.100 Yeah.

00:35:21.460 And it had nothing to do with commerce.

00:35:23.060 And I, and I write that in the book.

00:35:24.860 Good.

00:35:25.340 I also describe him as a, as a good dude and a fucking gangster.

00:35:29.860 Yeah.

00:35:30.400 No one's yelled at me yet about that.

00:35:33.220 Cause we're supposed to keep him right.

00:35:35.900 Parked in the cornfield.

00:35:36.920 Yeah.

00:35:38.560 I mean, I think the assumption is in this business and especially in your part of the business,

00:35:43.560 you know, you gotta be pretty tough character to get to the top.

00:35:46.520 Right.

00:35:46.880 Yeah.

00:35:47.320 I don't think non-gangsters run big entertainment organizations.

00:35:51.400 They don't.

00:35:51.780 Right.

00:35:52.080 Or they never have.

00:35:52.840 They never have.

00:35:53.560 Thank you.

00:35:54.080 Yeah.

00:35:55.600 Yeah.

00:35:56.100 Not an insult.

00:35:57.020 I'm not judging.

00:35:57.960 Sure.

00:35:58.700 Um, but yeah, no, I think it requires, I think it requires that.

00:36:01.720 So, um, so you never went to rehab.

00:36:04.700 No, I, I, I did a rehab.

00:36:06.920 At home.

00:36:08.360 What's that?

00:36:09.520 Not a rehab.

00:36:10.920 Not a rehab.

00:36:11.840 Well, there were.

00:36:12.280 A rehab with cocaine.

00:36:13.700 No, there were, there was no dope.

00:36:15.280 There was no drugs.

00:36:16.060 There was no.

00:36:16.360 Actually?

00:36:16.960 Yeah.

00:36:17.540 There was girls.

00:36:18.880 Yeah.

00:36:19.100 There was girls and testosterone cream.

00:36:21.800 That's the one thing I didn't quit.

00:36:23.620 And that's, that was probably the one thing I probably should have stayed on the Coke and

00:36:27.080 got, gotten off the cream.

00:36:28.780 Can you imagine like a doctor, like recommending that, you know?

00:36:32.140 That's so interesting.

00:36:33.360 I've never heard that before.

00:36:34.280 So you think the testosterone cream used at 40X recommended doses was worse for you than

00:36:39.960 the cocaine?

00:36:40.760 Well, yeah.

00:36:41.380 I, I, I think it was doing more damage to my psychological state.

00:36:46.000 Interesting.

00:36:46.560 Yeah.

00:36:46.800 Because the, the Coke is, is kind of predictable.

00:36:50.400 Oh, of course.

00:36:50.800 You know what you're going to, you know, how it's going to, yeah.

00:36:52.480 How you're going to behave in certain situations.

00:36:53.940 Yeah.

00:36:54.860 And that other stuff was just like, it was a trip to the outer limits, you know?

00:36:59.080 Really?

00:36:59.600 Yeah.

00:36:59.960 But like the really like kind of the, the, the angrier part of the outer limits, like

00:37:05.400 the, the testier part, the more edgy part.

00:37:08.520 Yeah.

00:37:08.920 It's like the.

00:37:09.380 More than cocaine.

00:37:10.680 Yes.

00:37:11.640 Well, that's the most interesting thing I've heard today.

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00:39:42.220 So did anybody, wow, that's, I'll think about that.

00:39:46.220 So I did, I did stop.

00:39:47.540 Because did anyone ever say to you, you know, it's good to get off the, you know, the narcotics,

00:39:52.300 but like testosterone cream when slathered in the amounts you're slathering is like pretty

00:39:57.420 heavy.

00:39:57.780 Did anyone ever say that to you?

00:40:01.680 Yes, but, but a couple months before that, do you know Nick Cassavetes?

00:40:06.980 He's a director, he's a writer, he's an old friend of mine.

00:40:09.520 He's the son of John Cassavetes.

00:40:11.580 Yeah.

00:40:12.040 Nick directed and wrote The Notebook.

00:40:14.440 Yes.

00:40:14.760 Everybody's favorite romantic comedy, right?

00:40:17.580 It's not a romantic comedy.

00:40:18.780 It's a love story.

00:40:22.420 So, sorry Nick, I called his film a comedy.

00:40:26.800 I want to cut that.

00:40:27.860 Well, you laughed and cried.

00:40:28.860 Yeah, you laughed and cried, yeah.

00:40:31.080 So, he, we were in Palm Springs and I don't know at what stage in the, in that whole thing,

00:40:38.880 that, that whole time it was, but he did say, hey man, I noticed that you, you, you're using

00:40:46.580 like a lot, you know, you're, you're, he, they, they, they recommended like the, you know,

00:40:51.660 the size of a dime and you had like five silver dollars in your hand.

00:40:55.400 And yeah, and he said, you just, just think about, think about cutting back a little bit.

00:41:00.100 And I was like, you got it, man.

00:41:00.960 Thank you.

00:41:01.500 Good advice.

00:41:02.140 I appreciate it.

00:41:02.880 Just ignore, ignore.

00:41:07.060 So, yeah, he, no, but you mean like in the moment, in that thing, while it was going on,

00:41:11.500 did anybody say?

00:41:12.560 Yeah.

00:41:13.760 I didn't really broadcast what I was doing.

00:41:17.620 I don't think people would think to look for that.

00:41:19.680 Exactly.

00:41:21.000 Testosterone cream.

00:41:21.820 I mean, I didn't even really know that was a thing, but if I had known it was a thing,

00:41:24.900 I wouldn't really think about it.

00:41:27.700 You know, I think like the crack is the problem, but it turned out.

00:41:31.500 So when you, was it hard to stop using the illegal stuff?

00:41:39.320 Yes and no.

00:41:40.280 I, I, I missed it just physically for like a, like a week, you know, but I wasn't on any,

00:41:48.300 any opiate.

00:41:48.920 So the Coke detox is pretty quick, you know?

00:41:55.220 But it's, the other stuff gave me the energy and, and just the different mindset to just,

00:42:02.580 to not even think about what my body was feeling.

00:42:05.660 Yes.

00:42:06.680 You know?

00:42:07.600 So then, cause you asked like how, how long, yeah.

00:42:12.580 So then that, that, but when I came back from the tour is when I, is when I went, I went dark.

00:42:20.260 Interesting.

00:42:20.740 Went dark and stayed dark.

00:42:21.960 Yeah.

00:42:22.220 Usually it's the other way around.

00:42:23.940 I know.

00:42:24.280 It's when people are on the road.

00:42:26.780 Yeah.

00:42:27.340 No, it, um, I, I, I just wanted to finish it.

00:42:30.840 I just wanted to honor that commitment.

00:42:33.040 It's as crazy as, as that commitment was.

00:42:36.040 I knew there was, there was, um, there were a lot of, there, there would have been a lot

00:42:40.840 of consequences.

00:42:41.640 I didn't want to deal with, had I not done every city, every, you know, every leg, every

00:42:47.820 leg of the tour.

00:42:48.240 You gotta do your job.

00:42:49.080 Yeah.

00:42:49.660 Yeah.

00:42:50.380 So.

00:42:50.880 And you're pretty work oriented anyway, right?

00:42:52.880 Yeah.

00:42:53.500 Yeah.

00:42:53.860 I have, I have that gear.

00:42:55.320 Yeah.

00:42:55.540 Yeah.

00:42:55.720 You know?

00:42:56.040 Me too.

00:42:56.960 That's important.

00:42:57.680 It is.

00:42:58.280 Yeah.

00:42:58.620 Yeah.

00:42:58.880 But it was after that, I think, I think the come down from it, just finally like landing

00:43:03.380 and, and sitting with the damage I'd done to myself and my career and my, you know,

00:43:08.540 and, and, and then, you know, how, how, how that affects my family, you know?

00:43:13.580 Um, yeah, I just had to just, just close the blinds, turn off the phone and.

00:43:21.100 Yeah.

00:43:21.660 Yeah.

00:43:22.160 Get back into the hard stuff, you know?

00:43:24.240 How long did that last?

00:43:25.360 Uh, about three months, four, four months, I think maybe longer, maybe six ish.

00:43:33.000 But not six years.

00:43:34.280 No, no.

00:43:35.500 So, because then a couple other things happened as a result of that dark place, you know?

00:43:40.420 Um, but as far as finally putting it down for real, um, it was, yeah, it was, it was

00:43:46.320 December 12th, 2017.

00:43:50.040 So how, I guess my core question is how, and I'm asking this not for prurient reasons, but

00:43:56.000 to inspire others.

00:43:56.960 Like, how did you do that?

00:43:59.100 Because I do think there are a ton of people who want to do that, but keep failing.

00:44:03.360 Sure.

00:44:04.780 Um, I, I just, I, my body was really starting to send the kind of messages that, that you,

00:44:13.780 you either pay attention to or you die from.

00:44:17.780 Yes.

00:44:18.540 You know, I'd never had the shakes before.

00:44:21.040 Yep.

00:44:21.280 I'd never had the DTs before.

00:44:23.380 Oh, did you get the DTs?

00:44:24.540 Yeah.

00:44:25.100 And just from, and not from being off of anything for a week, just from like going to bed drunk

00:44:30.920 and then waking up and not being able to function until, you know, I got a few pops in me just

00:44:37.300 to, just realign my compass.

00:44:39.200 Just to get steady, yeah.

00:44:40.000 Yeah.

00:44:40.800 So that was, that was one.

00:44:42.160 And then.

00:44:42.860 How scary are the DTs?

00:44:44.820 Um, terrifying.

00:44:46.620 Yeah.

00:44:47.480 Terrifying.

00:44:48.240 People die from that.

00:44:49.220 They do.

00:44:49.860 Yeah.

00:44:50.160 And then, you know, and, and I, I, for the longest time, I thought, you know, I thought

00:44:55.120 Nick's portrayal in Leaving Las Vegas, Nicolas Cage, um, I thought it was over the top.

00:45:00.620 I'm like, that's an exaggerated example of it.

00:45:02.760 And no, he nailed it.

00:45:05.220 Like spot on.

00:45:07.760 Just the thing about you can't, you can't, you can't take a drink cause you'll, you'll

00:45:11.980 break a tooth.

00:45:12.820 Yeah.

00:45:14.900 And then, and then, you know, a couple of days later, you're puking blood.

00:45:18.680 So your body is like saying, Hey man, yeah, we, we have these, these, these, this built

00:45:24.860 in warning system, this, these flashing red lights for a reason, you know?

00:45:30.460 Um, and then, um, and what's interesting is, you know, I think people imagine that the

00:45:38.480 delirium tremens are like something that 80 year old winos get.

00:45:42.140 Right.

00:45:43.000 But you like weren't that old and you'd had a job the whole time.

00:45:46.540 Sure.

00:45:47.000 Right.

00:45:47.440 So you're functioning.

00:45:48.300 Yeah.

00:45:48.440 Actually.

00:45:48.920 And you still got them.

00:45:50.160 Yeah.

00:45:52.140 Yeah.

00:45:52.720 It gets you faster than you realize.

00:45:54.820 Oh yeah.

00:45:55.620 Yeah.

00:45:55.860 And then you're the example of that.

00:45:58.540 You're the character in that story.

00:46:00.160 You promised you made a sacred vow to yourself that you would, you would, you would never star

00:46:03.760 in, in that story.

00:46:06.280 Yeah.

00:46:06.640 And it's just like, so there's a lot of, you know, self-loathing.

00:46:10.120 There's a lot of.

00:46:10.560 Of course.

00:46:10.940 Yeah.

00:46:11.000 But then, you know, uh, I have an athletic background and I, and I, I'm, I'm competitive.

00:46:17.020 And so it was about a challenge of, okay, it's me against this thing.

00:46:22.140 How, how tough are we?

00:46:24.320 You know, how, how much tiger blood is really running through these veins, you know?

00:46:28.740 The adonis substrate.

00:46:29.580 And so, um, yeah, and, and, and there's a, there's a, there's a, there's a really nice

00:46:35.940 moment in the book.

00:46:36.800 Um, it's just, um, uh, there was a thing with my daughter, Sam, you know, in a, in a car

00:46:43.360 one day, just like, it, it isn't like this grand event where I, you know, gotten a shootout

00:46:49.620 with the cops and hijacked a blimp and wound up, you know, you know what I'm saying?

00:46:56.280 And like, if you could hijack a blimp, I'd be impressed.

00:47:00.240 Yeah, me too.

00:47:01.160 Yeah.

00:47:01.520 That's, that's a box I've never checked, but it's not a bucket list moment.

00:47:06.320 So that's good news for the blimp industry, right?

00:47:09.200 Um, yeah, and it was just, it was this really personal, um, very soulful, painful moment

00:47:15.640 with my daughter that just made me realize in that moment, it was, it was time.

00:47:21.800 Cause there's a, there's a theme in the book about, you know, talkers and doers, you know?

00:47:27.040 Well, and, uh, it was time to, as I say in the book to, there was nothing left to say.

00:47:33.840 It was time to shut the fuck up and get busy doing.

00:47:36.800 And then that, like that night and the next day took a few Valium, had a few beers.

00:47:43.740 And then the next morning decided we're done.

00:47:47.800 We're done for real.

00:47:49.540 And it just happened to be Cassandra's birthday, my oldest daughter.

00:47:54.400 It just timed out like that cosmically.

00:47:57.860 You know, that, that, that there's, there's themes and tones in the book about that kind

00:48:01.420 of stuff where, you know, certain circles close when they're supposed to, you know, and

00:48:06.540 certain things align because they have to, you know, everything's about timing because

00:48:11.320 that's just the way it is sometimes.

00:48:14.340 Yeah.

00:48:14.360 It's pre-written.

00:48:15.180 Yeah.

00:48:15.840 Um, or feels that way anyway, sometimes.

00:48:18.460 Um, what, so what was that?

00:48:20.640 So it's one thing to decide.

00:48:22.060 Lots of people decide.

00:48:23.340 Right.

00:48:23.580 Everyone struggling with addiction has made many decisions on Sunday morning.

00:48:27.600 I got to shut this down.

00:48:28.960 But then you don't.

00:48:29.840 Right.

00:48:30.500 Because it's awful.

00:48:32.060 So was it awful?

00:48:34.280 No.

00:48:35.260 Really?

00:48:35.580 No, it was, it was, it was, it was, I mean, it was a little shaky for a week, but I, I

00:48:41.700 knew that I had enough experience with, you know, star, stop, star, stop, you know, for

00:48:46.400 a bunch of years.

00:48:47.400 So I, I, I knew, you know, what, what that path in front of me was going to look like,

00:48:52.760 but it was, it was a really short path.

00:48:55.180 Really?

00:48:55.540 Yeah.

00:48:55.860 I knew it wasn't going to be, you know, a long walk into the, you know, the, the, the

00:49:00.240 end of the forest.

00:49:01.060 No, it was like, it was like from here to the, that park bench right over there, you know?

00:49:06.880 Wow.

00:49:07.240 Yeah.

00:49:07.540 And I just, I just rewrote, I, I, I, I wouldn't commit to the same stories I'd been told to

00:49:13.200 worship for so long.

00:49:14.580 I said, I'm going to rewrite everything about this.

00:49:17.000 What were the stories you've been told to worship?

00:49:19.320 Ah, just the stuff in the, you know, in and around the rooms of AA that, you know, you're

00:49:23.800 You'd been to AA before.

00:49:24.880 Yeah.

00:49:25.380 A combined 21 years.

00:49:27.620 What?

00:49:28.140 Yeah.

00:49:28.500 So it isn't a guy that just did a few meetings and went, nah, it doesn't work for me.

00:49:31.360 It was a guy that really committed to it and did the steps like a bunch of times.

00:49:34.380 You did?

00:49:34.980 Oh yeah.

00:49:36.540 Absolutely.

00:49:37.160 I sponsored people.

00:49:38.380 I was, I was deep into it.

00:49:40.720 And, but, but it never felt like it was celebrating the victories.

00:49:45.800 It was always making everybody, just in my experience.

00:49:49.420 Yes.

00:49:49.620 Making me rather, um, be prepared for impending doom for the ultimate disaster that I was always

00:49:57.920 on a collision course with, you know, that as long as you've got something, some, um,

00:50:04.300 you know, some disease on board that is, that is ultimately going to control your behavior.

00:50:12.760 Um, I couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't subscribe to that any, any longer.

00:50:16.000 I couldn't do it because add to that, that subsequently, you know, I have a legitimate

00:50:22.060 disease on board that is life-threatening.

00:50:25.220 And, you know, I take medicine every day and it's not life-threatening.

00:50:29.500 It's as manageable as, as diabetes, right?

00:50:32.640 Um, but, but I, and then the doctor said, if you don't take this medicine, you'll die.

00:50:37.240 And that's not something, that's not like you don't, um, there's no other version of

00:50:43.000 that conversation, you know, that is, that's, that's, that's undebatable, right?

00:50:47.740 So you just, you follow that protocol and stay alive and, and live a, you know, happy,

00:50:54.320 healthy, fulfilling life, right?

00:50:56.440 Yes.

00:50:57.040 But AA says, um, you know, you got Southern disease on board.

00:51:00.420 If you don't go to these meetings every day or make that a part of your, of your, of your

00:51:04.400 regular, you, you, you know, your, your, your, your curriculum, you know, um, then what's,

00:51:13.740 what, what's in you will, will kill you.

00:51:16.880 So I took the pills.

00:51:18.460 I'm alive.

00:51:19.700 Didn't go to a single meeting and I'm coming up on eight years.

00:51:25.960 That's a, that's amazing.

00:51:27.000 Well, I'm just a rare example of a guy that, that understands the, the, the, you know, the

00:51:31.940 physiological reality of a disease you can see under a freaking microscope versus one

00:51:37.480 that I think was born out of necessity to, uh, keep people aligned, uh, through fear.

00:51:47.000 You know, and I'm going to get yelled at by a lot of people, but it's all in the book.

00:51:50.780 Here's something you may not have known.

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00:51:56.100 country of origin labeling act.

00:51:58.840 Now, why is this relevant to you?

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00:52:04.580 in the USA, it may not actually be.

00:52:07.640 In fact, it could be likely is from a foreign country.

00:52:11.980 It means that repackaging foreign meat can be enough to get the made in USA designation.

00:52:18.400 It's a lie.

00:52:19.380 It's an absolute lie.

00:52:20.260 Most people don't even know what's happening.

00:52:21.420 So how can you be sure that the meat you're eating is from the United States and has been

00:52:26.020 raised with the highest quality standards and is the tastiest?

00:52:29.380 It's truly made here.

00:52:30.440 Well, it's simple.

00:52:31.460 You can go to our friends at Meriwether Farms.

00:52:33.720 Meriwether Farms is an American small business.

00:52:35.740 It's based in Riverton, Wyoming.

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00:52:41.220 They ship the highest quality meat raised free from growth hormones and antibiotics directly

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00:53:14.120 It's worth it.

00:53:15.060 It's interesting.

00:53:15.740 I didn't get so worth AA either and I always felt like I wanted to de-emphasize that part

00:53:21.960 of me.

00:53:22.300 Like, why would I want to marinate in ugly things?

00:53:24.920 Right.

00:53:25.300 Don't want to stay positive and forward-looking.

00:53:28.100 I like the AA meetings I've been to have brought other people to, really.

00:53:33.460 I like the honesty and camaraderie of it.

00:53:36.560 But I do think you're making a point that's impossible to ignore.

00:53:40.820 You don't want to focus on...

00:53:43.820 It's not healthy to focus on the downside all the time.

00:53:46.440 No, and that's what you're reminded of and it's drilled in any time you step in.

00:53:54.860 You know, and then if their slogan is keep coming back, that implies that you're going

00:54:01.440 to be coming back because something else has taken control.

00:54:06.080 Right.

00:54:06.140 And it's what they call a no-fault disease.

00:54:12.800 What does that mean?

00:54:13.380 Just that it went bad again and it's not my fault, you know?

00:54:18.260 No, I always felt it was...

00:54:20.280 All my problems have all been my fault, 100% my fault.

00:54:23.520 Likewise.

00:54:24.640 Likewise.

00:54:25.520 Thank you.

00:54:26.540 Yeah.

00:54:26.940 Yeah.

00:54:27.660 Otherwise, it's like nothing to apologize for, right?

00:54:30.560 Yeah.

00:54:30.960 Um, yeah, no, I, I, um, it just, I, I never felt, uh, I never felt celebrated there.

00:54:44.660 I always felt, um, there was just, I did, I can, just this weird air of suspicion and,

00:54:52.560 and, um, expectation, you know?

00:54:56.740 Um, yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't miss it.

00:54:59.460 I don't miss it.

00:55:00.420 And, and, you know, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't put down the bottle to then, you know,

00:55:05.020 close all the bars or, or, or, uh, you know, convince others that this is, this has to be

00:55:12.740 their path as well.

00:55:13.700 I didn't, it's not, you know, I got, I quit drinking to, to, to live in the real world.

00:55:19.020 Yeah.

00:55:19.500 Happily and successfully, you know?

00:55:21.640 And, and just...

00:55:22.300 Well, I agree with you on that.

00:55:23.480 Yeah.

00:55:23.940 There's a, we're, there's a bar right behind you that I've never touched, but I like bars.

00:55:28.920 I can't, I...

00:55:30.160 Oh, I do too.

00:55:30.700 I hate drunkenness, but I love bars.

00:55:32.560 Yeah.

00:55:32.840 Sorry.

00:55:33.360 Yeah.

00:55:33.620 No, there's a, there's an energy in a bar you can't find anywhere else.

00:55:37.380 Yeah.

00:55:37.480 And in fact, in the decline of bars in the United States mirrors a kind of societal collapse

00:55:41.960 where no one is with anyone else.

00:55:44.800 I mean, again, I'm a sober person.

00:55:46.520 I don't like, I don't drink.

00:55:47.820 I would never drink.

00:55:49.060 I hate alcohol.

00:55:50.080 However, I love the idea of people getting together and laughing and telling vulgar jokes

00:55:56.060 and like hugging each other in sloppy ways.

00:55:58.720 Like that's a bar.

00:55:59.500 I like that.

00:56:00.480 Yeah.

00:56:00.880 Or to watch the big game.

00:56:02.140 A hundred percent.

00:56:02.920 Yeah.

00:56:03.860 And like, that's actually died.

00:56:05.780 People have gotten less sober, but at the same time, everyone's on something.

00:56:09.080 Right.

00:56:09.380 It's like to me, but there are no bars.

00:56:12.300 Nobody goes to the bar.

00:56:14.020 Oh, that, that's gone away?

00:56:15.500 I think so.

00:56:16.360 I mean, I'm a little bit cut off, but I, it does feel that way.

00:56:19.280 Interesting.

00:56:20.200 Interesting.

00:56:20.680 I mean, do you know people who like go to the bar?

00:56:22.460 Do you know anyone who picks up members of the opposite sex in a bar?

00:56:26.320 I, no one has shared a story like that in recent memory.

00:56:30.500 Exactly.

00:56:31.020 Yeah.

00:56:31.460 Interesting.

00:56:32.300 So I'm not like endorsing, you know, bar hookups or whatever, but as compared to what,

00:56:37.520 like, I don't know, it's just important for people to be together.

00:56:40.060 That's all I'm saying.

00:56:40.860 I agree.

00:56:41.500 And that was a place for them to do it, which I always liked.

00:56:44.380 But, but I, but I have to add that, you know, anyone that's doing AA successfully and it's

00:56:51.440 a part of their life and, and, and, and it's the reason that they can have the, the, the

00:56:56.440 life that was given back to them or that they claim, you know, reclaimed, then absolutely.

00:57:02.620 Oh, well, of course.

00:57:03.620 AA is wonderful for so many people.

00:57:05.840 Sure.

00:57:06.020 I completely agree.

00:57:07.060 Sure.

00:57:07.280 With that, I mean, I'm always talking up AA though.

00:57:09.820 I don't, you know, I'm not, I'm not an AA guy, but I, but no, I think you're making an

00:57:14.160 important point, which is you don't want to, alcohol is the center of your life when you're

00:57:18.460 addicted to it.

00:57:19.800 And the goal is to make it not the center of your life.

00:57:22.020 Right.

00:57:22.840 Right.

00:57:23.240 That's how I've always felt.

00:57:24.080 I don't want to think about alcohol actually.

00:57:25.520 I don't either.

00:57:26.620 I don't either.

00:57:27.460 If I'm, yeah, I thought about it a lot while I, while I was drinking.

00:57:32.300 Oh, I know.

00:57:32.840 While I was drinking and I don't, I, this, this idea that you have to identify as an

00:57:38.220 alcoholic.

00:57:38.840 Oh, I agree.

00:57:39.640 And it's like, how, how is someone still an alcoholic that, you know, the guy doesn't,

00:57:44.140 hasn't had a drink in 20 years.

00:57:45.600 Right.

00:57:45.920 I'd much rather be identified as a father or something that matters to me.

00:57:49.020 Yeah.

00:57:49.340 There, there was a guy in one of our private groups and I can't say who.

00:57:52.980 Yeah.

00:57:53.300 Um, super famous, great dude.

00:57:55.740 Um, and he would identify, they'd go around the room, hi, Dave, alcoholic, Charlie, alcoholic.

00:58:01.000 And if he would get to him, hi, I'm so-and-so human being.

00:58:07.540 And he refused.

00:58:09.020 And they were like, well, that's not how we do it here, man.

00:58:11.180 He's like, you're not allowed to be a human being here.

00:58:13.480 Like, no, of course you are.

00:58:14.580 But it's important you identify with your disease.

00:58:17.560 And he's like, uh, no, first and foremost, I'm here on earth.

00:58:24.040 Cause I'm a human being.

00:58:25.080 Right.

00:58:25.980 And in this room, I'm a human being and I'm here to address some issues that I have, but

00:58:31.440 I'm not, I'm not going to, uh, uh, just reduce myself to a label.

00:58:37.080 And I was like, that guy.

00:58:40.200 Yeah.

00:58:40.760 Yeah.

00:58:40.940 Did he stay sober?

00:58:42.080 I, I think so.

00:58:43.940 Yeah.

00:58:45.040 Wow.

00:58:45.480 Yeah.

00:58:45.820 An AA meeting in Hollywood must be wild.

00:58:48.820 It's awful.

00:58:50.040 Why?

00:58:50.780 It's awful because it's not just about that.

00:58:53.160 And that second A is just, that's, they, they honor that as, as, you know, as little as,

00:59:00.680 as possible.

00:59:01.760 Oh, is that true?

00:59:02.940 Yeah.

00:59:03.240 No, it's, Hey, I heard you were at the Sundowners meeting at, uh, you know, fifth and Broadway

00:59:08.420 or whatever.

00:59:09.420 And it's like, yeah, but I went there cause.

00:59:12.340 Was supposed to be anonymous.

00:59:13.580 Second A.

00:59:14.400 Yeah.

00:59:14.640 Um, and yeah, there's, there's a lot of, um, you know, people that want to give you

00:59:21.700 a script.

00:59:22.860 Actually?

00:59:23.440 Yeah.

00:59:23.900 Or want to hit on your girlfriend or just creepy stuff that you, that you're not going

00:59:29.400 to get at home alone watching a ball game, you know?

00:59:33.080 Oh, that's kind of distressing.

00:59:34.160 Yeah.

00:59:34.380 There was an element there that was just never felt just like skeevy at times.

00:59:40.120 And there were other meetings that were like, okay, all right, this makes sense.

00:59:43.980 Cool.

00:59:44.260 I like these people.

00:59:46.320 And then at some point it turns, at some point it turns.

00:59:50.380 And that's the, this is just my experience.

00:59:53.780 Wow.

00:59:54.080 So you said when you did that interview, lots of people judged you, lots of people scolded

00:59:58.900 you.

00:59:59.400 Then you go on a tour and you bomb the first night, people judging and scolding you.

01:00:03.780 Who were the people who were kind to you throughout all of the dark moments that you had?

01:00:10.620 Um, family.

01:00:12.600 Yeah.

01:00:12.900 You know, um, you're close to your family.

01:00:17.180 I was interested.

01:00:18.520 Yeah.

01:00:19.160 Um, my ex-wives.

01:00:21.520 Really?

01:00:22.080 Oh yeah.

01:00:23.600 Yeah.

01:00:24.180 They were very supportive.

01:00:26.060 Really?

01:00:26.700 Yeah.

01:00:27.060 How'd you do that?

01:00:29.520 Because, um, you know, I have kids with both of them, except for my first wife, Donna,

01:00:34.920 but, uh, with Brooke and Denise.

01:00:36.240 Yeah.

01:00:36.680 So, you know, we decided early on, you know, after the, after the splits that, um, you know,

01:00:42.760 our, our, our stuff is, is, is, is incidental, is secondary.

01:00:46.800 It's a, hi there.

01:00:48.260 Is it's, it's, it's, it's, it's about the kids.

01:00:50.600 You know, we have to have a, uh, uh, children first, uh, North star, you know?

01:00:56.940 Um.

01:00:57.460 Yeah.

01:00:57.680 Well, lots of people set that goal.

01:01:00.120 And I'm saying, yeah, it would, it would, it would run through peaks and valleys, but, um,

01:01:04.820 but when it, when it's good and is good today, um, no, they're, they're really supportive.

01:01:10.900 Really?

01:01:11.480 Yeah.

01:01:11.920 The whole time?

01:01:13.080 Uh, 80% of the time.

01:01:14.700 That's amazing.

01:01:15.380 70% of the time.

01:01:17.440 Yeah.

01:01:19.300 I'll take it.

01:01:20.760 I'll take it.

01:01:22.040 So, but you're, and your family was kind to you the whole, the whole way.

01:01:24.860 Yeah.

01:01:25.820 Yeah.

01:01:26.240 They, um, you know, they, um, a guy with my kind of history and, you know, the, the,

01:01:34.640 um, you know, not, not, not so much a chronic relapser, but a guy that would get some time

01:01:40.740 and then just blow it all up.

01:01:42.200 Yeah.

01:01:42.420 Yeah.

01:01:42.600 Yeah.

01:01:43.200 Um, you know, it's the, it's the trust thing that you can't, you can't get back in a day

01:01:49.380 or a week or a month.

01:01:51.040 And so when I, what I decided to do was not make the big announcement, not say I've, I've

01:01:58.620 quit drinking everybody.

01:01:59.820 And they're going to be like, here we go again.

01:02:01.160 Right.

01:02:01.600 Yeah.

01:02:01.840 And I was just going to just do it.

01:02:03.900 And then as soon as someone made a comment about, Hey, you're looking, you look clear,

01:02:10.400 you look, uh, you look content.

01:02:12.500 Yeah.

01:02:12.900 As soon as I started hearing stuff like that, I would then volunteer the, the, the changes

01:02:18.620 I'd made.

01:02:19.260 It's called a soft launch.

01:02:20.600 Okay.

01:02:21.120 I like that.

01:02:22.080 I like that.

01:02:22.880 You don't do the media tour.

01:02:24.540 You just start doing it.

01:02:25.820 Yeah.

01:02:26.380 Yeah.

01:02:26.660 Yeah.

01:02:27.100 Yeah.

01:02:27.420 And much more effective.

01:02:28.620 Much more effective.

01:02:29.880 It dials down the pressure.

01:02:30.840 Yeah.

01:02:31.620 A little bit.

01:02:32.420 Do you think, were people like your work peers supportive?

01:02:36.180 Any?

01:02:37.420 Um, well.

01:02:40.720 Or nice to you.

01:02:41.780 I guess that's what I mean.

01:02:42.640 You mean like former work peers?

01:02:44.840 Yeah.

01:02:45.060 You know, people outside your family who, you know.

01:02:47.920 Yeah, absolutely.

01:02:49.420 So you, there were loyal people.

01:02:51.020 Yes.

01:02:51.260 That's what I'm asking.

01:02:51.920 Yeah.

01:02:52.420 Cause I didn't really, haven't had the big job, um, in, in this, in like this time, which

01:03:00.580 is fine, which is actually probably better, which is good that I had all this time to gain

01:03:05.560 some perspective and, and, and, and just work on myself and, and be like a responsible,

01:03:11.220 available father to all these kids, you know, and grandkids.

01:03:16.820 How many kids do you have?

01:03:18.060 Uh, five and three grandkids.

01:03:20.260 It's amazing.

01:03:21.040 It's pretty cool.

01:03:21.740 Yeah.

01:03:22.040 You're a biblical patriarch.

01:03:23.380 Thank you.

01:03:24.480 How about that?

01:03:25.660 Is it like, I'm always, I always wonder about, you know, the studios, the manager, the agent,

01:03:34.760 even the accountant, the lawyer, you know, all the people around actors and in related

01:03:41.280 businesses.

01:03:41.760 And like, they have kind of a mixed incentive.

01:03:44.820 Like they, you know, you're not doing well, but they want to keep you working sort of like

01:03:49.620 the athlete who gets, you know, the Novocaine rather than the surgery because he's got to

01:03:53.800 play the game.

01:03:54.800 Do you feel like they, any of them actually try to help or they just kind of want to keep

01:04:01.540 the money coming?

01:04:02.220 Um, in that, in that extreme example, um, that I lived through, um, I think there was,

01:04:12.720 there was a, a, a want to help from certain, from specific individuals.

01:04:18.280 Um, I don't think they knew how, or that I was, um, I was reachable enough to, to, to

01:04:27.220 receive it.

01:04:28.120 Yes.

01:04:28.840 You know?

01:04:29.460 So I think they had to kind of, um, decide is it, is, is, you know, kind of like, you know,

01:04:36.740 weighing the pros and the cons is, is he going to be at least if he goes back to work, is

01:04:41.520 that enough of a full-time thing with distractions and responsibilities that, um, that, that, that,

01:04:47.800 that will be deterrent enough, you know, or have we sent him just back into the lion's

01:04:53.520 den, just covered in fresh blood, you know?

01:04:56.080 Um, so yeah, I, I probably, I don't think I was ready to go back to work on anger management

01:05:06.640 on the show about a year after the whole two and a half disaster.

01:05:12.080 Right.

01:05:12.500 And I don't think that was advisable.

01:05:15.740 However, it's still, it, it comes down to me giving that final, yes, I'll do this.

01:05:23.640 So I do, I, I have to own that, that part.

01:05:27.420 Well, yeah.

01:05:28.580 So you said there were threads throughout this whole experience, times, the timing of

01:05:33.880 certain events that made you think there was a supernatural quality here.

01:05:38.440 I mean, did you, how would you identify?

01:05:40.280 Is that God?

01:05:41.020 Like, what is that?

01:05:42.240 Yeah, it's interesting.

01:05:43.180 I got asked this with Bill Maher just, uh, last week.

01:05:46.620 Bill Maher asked you about God?

01:05:47.600 Yeah, he did.

01:05:48.260 Yeah.

01:05:48.840 Really?

01:05:49.200 What world is this?

01:05:50.260 What is happening?

01:05:51.080 I don't know.

01:05:51.780 Um.

01:05:52.340 Bill Maher is asking you about God.

01:05:53.860 We are in a brand new age.

01:05:55.180 Yeah, no, and I, and I, I wasn't happy with my answer.

01:05:59.520 All right, well, now you have a chance to revise it.

01:06:01.100 Now I have a chance to, yeah, I, I, I, there's, most days I don't know what else to call it.

01:06:06.620 Yeah.

01:06:06.760 And that's what I should have said in that moment.

01:06:08.520 Most days I don't have a better word or anything else for it.

01:06:13.280 It is exactly that.

01:06:14.860 And just my, whatever my interpretation of that is, you know, um, but I, yeah, it just kind

01:06:21.300 of caught me off guard and yeah, I should have just leaned right into it and I did a little

01:06:26.560 bit of a tap dance, you know, um.

01:06:28.440 Well, it's kind of weird to, I mean, we're, you know, about the same age, didn't grow up

01:06:33.500 in a world where people talked about God at all.

01:06:35.740 Right, right.

01:06:36.600 Did you?

01:06:37.320 No.

01:06:37.660 Well, my dad, devout Catholic growing up and, and rather than that, um, you know, he, he,

01:06:46.340 he always, you know, let us know that that was his, his personal journey and we were, we

01:06:52.040 were welcome to climb on board, but it wasn't anything that he was, he was going to mandate,

01:06:57.900 you know?

01:06:58.360 Yeah.

01:06:58.580 And so, so we did have exposure to it in our house, our entire life.

01:07:06.200 Um.

01:07:06.740 Really?

01:07:06.980 Yeah, yeah.

01:07:08.320 And it never, um.

01:07:09.360 What did you think?

01:07:10.960 Um, I didn't, I, I, I, I saw some, you know, I saw a lot of goodness with it.

01:07:21.080 Um, I saw other stuff I didn't want to align with.

01:07:24.180 Yep.

01:07:24.840 Um, and yeah, it's, you know, I was, I was talking to Lexi just yesterday, you know, some days I'm

01:07:34.160 all in.

01:07:35.080 Yeah.

01:07:35.300 I'm like, okay, then sure.

01:07:37.400 Well, you, you know, can I describe it better?

01:07:39.840 Do, do, do I have a better prediction?

01:07:42.060 Yeah.

01:07:42.260 No.

01:07:43.020 And there's other days I'm like, nah, I don't know.

01:07:45.660 I don't know.

01:07:47.000 You know, so I'm not, people will read the book and, you know, there's not a chance they

01:07:51.060 say, oh, that guy's an atheist.

01:07:52.400 Right.

01:07:52.720 But there is a chance I go, oh, he's curious.

01:07:55.340 He doesn't quite, he hasn't fully figured it out or, or.

01:07:59.200 So you're God curious, he would say.

01:08:00.660 Yeah, sure.

01:08:01.640 Yeah.

01:08:01.960 And, and I don't think that's, um, and that's not me just wanting to say that in your presence.

01:08:07.720 That's me having time to.

01:08:09.320 In my presence.

01:08:10.040 Well, cause you know, right.

01:08:11.820 Just to.

01:08:12.340 I don't know.

01:08:13.040 I mean, I'm hardly an authority on the subject.

01:08:15.920 No, but I understand the, the, the, you know, what it means to you.

01:08:19.860 It's come to me now.

01:08:20.860 Yeah.

01:08:21.100 I mean, I, you know, again, things are changing so fast and I'm, I don't have the answers

01:08:26.040 to most questions, but I definitely have become convinced that God's real for sure.

01:08:29.680 No, and that's inspiring to, to, to see that level of, of, of, uh, acceptance.

01:08:38.020 Well, don't you feel it kind of?

01:08:39.980 I do.

01:08:40.820 I do.

01:08:41.660 But, and, but there's still, there's a part of me that, you know, just still wants to be

01:08:48.140 a science snob.

01:08:49.560 I get it.

01:08:50.200 Yeah.

01:08:51.200 Cause you were, I mean, the, for, for the longest time.

01:08:53.820 My whole life.

01:08:54.620 Yeah.

01:08:54.980 I mean, I'm not, I was always pro things about it.

01:08:59.600 I like, but I mean, I would, I don't think I would ever say in public, I know God's real

01:09:03.420 cause that's like freaky.

01:09:04.580 And also there are cultural connotations attached that are just different from the culture that

01:09:08.660 I grew up in, like completely different.

01:09:10.720 So, you know, it just found it sounded kind of phony or not really like me or whatever,

01:09:15.260 but then things change so much in the world.

01:09:18.940 And I saw all this stuff that blew my mind.

01:09:21.280 And I was like, wow, God is real.

01:09:23.620 I can't believe this.

01:09:24.840 And then when you say it, you're like, actually, that's not crazy.

01:09:28.220 Everyone's always thought that.

01:09:29.600 I can't believe I was like embarrassed to say that.

01:09:33.680 So then once I do think that once you say it, something in you changes, that's been my

01:09:38.000 experience.

01:09:38.380 Not that I have a ton of experience or would, you know, feel qualified to give advice to

01:09:41.740 anyone.

01:09:42.060 I certainly don't, but yeah.

01:09:44.460 I, I, I don't want to get there and be wrong.

01:09:49.320 You know what I mean?

01:09:50.540 Yeah.

01:09:50.900 Well, you don't.

01:09:52.420 There's the thing.

01:09:53.260 I don't think.

01:09:53.960 There's the thing, but isn't there some like, um, aren't you allowed to wait till the last

01:10:00.400 minute?

01:10:03.700 I think, um, once, you know, it's, it's just, it's kind of like a lot of things you arrive

01:10:12.180 in a place and you're like, yeah, wait, I've always known this.

01:10:16.540 I've always, I've always felt this and it's totally what I thought.

01:10:20.640 Right.

01:10:21.060 You do occasionally feel that way about things?

01:10:22.640 Of course.

01:10:23.240 Yes.

01:10:23.860 No, I, I'm not controlling any part of all this.

01:10:27.900 Right.

01:10:28.260 That I know for a fact.

01:10:30.540 Right.

01:10:31.120 So, and it doesn't have the, the feeling of randomness, does it?

01:10:34.260 No, no, there's too many signs.

01:10:36.780 Nothing's a coincidence.

01:10:38.260 Exactly.

01:10:38.680 It's just, it's, everything's connected.

01:10:41.500 Exactly.

01:10:42.040 Yeah.

01:10:42.400 And people are connected.

01:10:43.760 Yeah.

01:10:44.260 And how do you, how do you explain deja vu?

01:10:47.720 Well, you kind of can't.

01:10:48.900 And then you realize that actually the real religious nuts are the science snobs.

01:10:54.320 Interesting.

01:10:54.720 Who are sort of desperately backfilling against the evidence.

01:10:58.660 Like, well, what does that mean?

01:11:00.500 Well, shut up.

01:11:02.440 They're just like so desperate to cling to something that is just absurd.

01:11:09.220 I'm not saying that, that the physical world can't be measured in a lab.

01:11:12.280 Of course it can.

01:11:13.560 Right.

01:11:13.800 And I'm grateful for that.

01:11:14.740 And I'm grateful that, you know, for its byproducts, like, I don't know, automobiles and penicillin,

01:11:19.560 but I'm not against science, but the idea that science explains everything is itself a religion

01:11:25.920 and really kind of the dumbest religion ever concocted.

01:11:29.700 Interesting.

01:11:30.100 And the people who espouse it know that it's dumb.

01:11:32.920 And that's why they're so brittle and so given to lecturing you about it.

01:11:36.820 There's no Mormon missionary who's ever been judgier or more persistent than Tony Fauci.

01:11:42.260 Trust the science.

01:11:43.740 Wow.

01:11:44.180 Does any Christian ever say that?

01:11:45.500 Trust the religion.

01:11:47.300 Not that I, not that I've ever met.

01:11:48.440 Or I'll hurt you.

01:11:49.580 Yeah.

01:11:50.180 Yeah.

01:11:51.200 I mean, the science, religious wackos believe in conversion by the sword.

01:11:57.180 Like, do what we say or we'll hurt you.

01:11:58.960 Right.

01:11:59.980 That's not a religion I want to be anywhere near.

01:12:01.960 Me neither.

01:12:02.520 No.

01:12:02.880 No.

01:12:03.100 No, that's bad.

01:12:04.180 Doesn't sound loving.

01:12:05.720 No, it's-

01:12:06.440 Doesn't sound forgiving.

01:12:07.780 No, it sounds dangerous, actually.

01:12:10.340 Yeah, it does.

01:12:10.520 It does, yeah.

01:12:11.000 Sounds kind of like Al-Qaeda a little bit.

01:12:12.780 So, I'm, I just think, and it's sad because who acts like that?

01:12:18.120 Only people who know they're wrong act like that.

01:12:20.100 Interesting.

01:12:20.800 Yeah.

01:12:21.060 Right?

01:12:21.460 Yeah.

01:12:22.240 Yeah.

01:12:22.560 There's actually a line in the book that, I don't know where I read this or heard this,

01:12:26.000 but somebody smarter than me described science as an ongoing historical series of corrected mistakes.

01:12:43.240 How about that?

01:12:43.920 Yes.

01:12:45.180 Yeah, it's just kind of institutional.

01:12:47.600 It's a method for satisfying curiosity and understanding the physical world, and I'm totally for that, completely for that.

01:12:55.060 But at its heart is skepticism and an acknowledgement that you don't know the answers to the most obvious questions,

01:13:01.100 and so keep trying to find the answers.

01:13:03.200 Sure.

01:13:04.060 I'm 100% in favor of all of that, of course.

01:13:07.820 But what it's become is the medieval church.

01:13:12.320 Brittle, rigid, punitive, stupid, laughable.

01:13:18.520 And the second you describe it with no emotion, any normal person's like, well, that's insane.

01:13:23.400 I don't want to be part of that.

01:13:24.480 Right.

01:13:25.060 Right?

01:13:25.380 Yeah.

01:13:26.300 Yes.

01:13:28.600 Yeah.

01:13:29.240 And, but I'm, you know, I'm not, I'm not going to try to solve the unsolvable.

01:13:36.320 Right.

01:13:36.780 You know, and I'm fine being completely mystified by it.

01:13:41.120 Well, that's the beginning of wisdom.

01:13:42.480 You know what I'm saying?

01:13:42.940 To admit you're mystified.

01:13:44.520 Right.

01:13:45.060 Yeah.

01:13:45.220 Because you're admitting you're not all-knowing.

01:13:46.840 No.

01:13:49.020 Yeah.

01:13:49.680 And, and, and, yeah, for sure.

01:13:51.600 Not all-knowing.

01:13:52.320 Well, speaking of mysteries, how did you wind up knowing Alex Jones?

01:13:57.460 How did I wind up knowing Alex Jones?

01:13:58.940 Um, he, it was his early videos.

01:14:03.160 It was his early documentaries.

01:14:04.600 It was the stuff he produced himself, like on VHS.

01:14:07.400 How could you have seen that?

01:14:08.760 I, I, I, how did I see it originally?

01:14:12.100 Um.

01:14:12.460 You're like in Los Angeles making movies.

01:14:15.680 Yeah.

01:14:16.400 It's wild.

01:14:17.280 I've always been a guy that likes to, just needs to peek behind the curtain.

01:14:20.780 I've always been a guy that's done my own research.

01:14:22.680 Always been a guy that just never, not always satisfied with the official story about anything.

01:14:29.800 Good.

01:14:30.400 And, um, you know, and, and I, you know, I create fiction for a living.

01:14:36.040 Yes.

01:14:36.360 I'm pretty good at spotting it.

01:14:37.840 Um, in, in people.

01:14:39.920 Oh, I just want to pause on that.

01:14:41.020 Yeah.

01:14:41.160 I create fiction for a living.

01:14:43.480 I'm pretty good at spotting it.

01:14:45.540 Yeah.

01:14:46.040 It's a good quote, right?

01:14:46.840 It's a great quote.

01:14:47.580 It's true.

01:14:48.260 Yeah.

01:14:48.660 Thank you.

01:14:49.440 Thank you.

01:14:49.880 Um, and so, you know, uh, dad played both Kennedys, what, you know, when we were growing up.

01:14:58.460 So we had access to JFK stuff that wasn't in the public sphere.

01:15:04.520 Documentaries and, and, you know, um, unedited Zapruder stuff.

01:15:08.000 And so we were, you know, I talked to, with, with Rogan about this a little bit last week.

01:15:12.280 And we were, you know, so we, we've always had a, had to, we're just raised to, um, you know, take, take a deeper dive.

01:15:23.360 Um, look at things just with a more, just polished through a more polished lens, you know, um, or skeptical lens.

01:15:33.200 And so, um, yeah, I, I, uh, you know, be it, uh, JFK or 9-11 or Oak City or Columbine.

01:15:45.020 We just did 9-11 doc.

01:15:46.480 And it was an amazing experience for me to be involved in this because I not only bought the 9-11 story, I was very resistant to anyone who questioned it.

01:15:57.800 Does it felt like disrespectful or desecrating the grape?

01:16:02.140 I don't know why I had that incredibly embarrassing, um, not at all noble reaction to people's honest questions about 9-11.

01:16:10.000 So it took me a long time to, uh, want to rethink it.

01:16:14.000 And then once you do, you realize like it's just a tissue of lies.

01:16:17.760 At what point did you start asking questions about it?

01:16:21.260 Um, oh, four, oh, five.

01:16:26.000 Uh, whenever loose change dropped.

01:16:29.140 Yeah.

01:16:29.500 That was the first.

01:16:30.680 Well, no, actually on the day.

01:16:33.520 Really?

01:16:34.000 On the day.

01:16:35.680 Yeah.

01:16:36.120 There were things, um, Emilio and I had a, cause everybody like rushed to Malibu.

01:16:41.260 We were like in the city.

01:16:42.780 I was in a high rise.

01:16:43.780 I didn't know how far this thing reached, you know, like everybody just had to get the, get back to the folks house.

01:16:49.600 Like, you know, let's, let's reassemble at base camp, you know?

01:16:52.720 So, and Emilio and I were out on the deck and I said, you know, man.

01:16:56.280 At your parents.

01:16:57.000 Yeah.

01:16:57.740 Yeah.

01:16:58.140 And I, I said, there's something about the way that building came down.

01:17:01.920 I'm just, I don't know.

01:17:03.040 And, and, you know, by that point we had seen different angles of it.

01:17:07.180 And it was really, um, it was, you know, there was, there was a lot of content to, to digest, you know, horrific content, might I add.

01:17:16.920 Um, and we just, yeah.

01:17:19.160 And then I, I just thought, nah, cause that would entail.

01:17:23.500 Of course.

01:17:24.340 Right.

01:17:24.460 All of these things.

01:17:25.220 You just shut it down in your head.

01:17:26.540 Yeah.

01:17:26.820 We talked each other out of it.

01:17:28.360 Rough course.

01:17:28.760 Cause that would entail.

01:17:29.680 It's interesting though, that two guys in the business of like manufacturing images.

01:17:37.000 Right.

01:17:37.400 Would focus on that image and say that there's something about that.

01:17:40.060 Right.

01:17:40.200 That's weird.

01:17:40.760 Right.

01:17:41.580 And so I kind of just let it, I let it, you know, just didn't, didn't go near it.

01:17:47.640 Yeah.

01:17:47.880 And then, um, you know, it led to what it led to.

01:17:53.560 Um, the, the, the, the, the whole world was different.

01:17:56.980 You know, the whole world was different.

01:17:58.740 It's never returned to what it was.

01:17:59.860 No, it really hasn't.

01:18:01.140 No, there's, there's pre and there's post.

01:18:03.060 Yes.

01:18:03.700 Um, and then I, I watched that documentary.

01:18:08.540 I, I, I'd been, you know, a fan of Alex's early stuff, you know, um, and that's, you know,

01:18:15.540 just him.

01:18:16.140 So you knew who he was on 9-11?

01:18:18.360 Yeah.

01:18:19.440 How?

01:18:20.980 How did I?

01:18:21.780 He's my friend.

01:18:22.580 I would mean no disrespect.

01:18:23.680 I love him.

01:18:24.100 He's coming here in a month, but I'd never heard of Alex Jones on 9-11.

01:18:27.660 And I was in the news business.

01:18:29.380 I don't know.

01:18:29.740 How would you have heard of him?

01:18:30.740 That's amazing.

01:18:32.080 Um, just, you know, spending time like in those, on those research channels in, in, uh, just

01:18:41.000 in, in that part of the, um, of, of the, you know, those subjects, you know?

01:18:48.640 Um, it's interesting that you, so you have long felt like you want to look at other sources

01:18:54.760 of information.

01:18:55.600 Of course.

01:18:56.340 Yeah.

01:18:56.640 I've, I've always done my own research always.

01:19:00.560 And then, um.

01:19:01.860 Do you know other people?

01:19:02.740 Did you know other people around 9-11 who already were thinking like this?

01:19:05.520 Like maybe reality as, as presented to us is not entirely real.

01:19:10.280 Um, the, people would believe things only so far.

01:19:16.520 Yes.

01:19:16.980 And so I would back off and I say, you know what, we're just going to, we're just going

01:19:20.160 to focus on two things.

01:19:21.500 We're just, just two things.

01:19:23.560 And if you can explain those, I will, I will, uh, I, I, I'll submit to the official story.

01:19:30.480 I'll just say, all right, fine.

01:19:31.960 However you, however you say it had to play out, I'm in.

01:19:35.520 Right.

01:19:36.540 And, uh, it was.

01:19:37.580 But explain these anomalies first.

01:19:39.220 Building seven in the Pentagon.

01:19:40.660 Yeah.

01:19:41.000 Just help me out there.

01:19:42.760 You know, uh, I've got to believe that the Pentagon is the most protected and documented,

01:19:47.280 you know, uh, video protected, surveilled, uh, building, uh, in the history of the known

01:19:54.380 universe.

01:19:54.740 Right.

01:19:56.260 Turns out not.

01:19:57.640 Well, I'm saying.

01:19:58.640 I think we just have two videos from the, uh, parking lot.

01:20:02.620 Parking kiosk.

01:20:03.500 Yeah.

01:20:03.740 Yeah.

01:20:04.100 Yeah.

01:20:04.380 So that's, that's the thing.

01:20:06.500 And then, and then.

01:20:07.800 That is weird.

01:20:08.580 Yeah.

01:20:09.300 Yeah.

01:20:10.100 And then building seven, it just, you can't, you just can't, you can't watch that and say

01:20:16.960 that is the result of a fire that burned for five hours on two floors.

01:20:23.140 You can't sell that to me.

01:20:24.920 And, and, and, and, and you know, that for years that was always met with, that is disrespecting

01:20:30.820 the victims and I'm like, I don't, okay, how, how is that disrespecting the fallen heroes?

01:20:39.340 How, if you're just looking for the truth behind what is clearly not what, how, how it

01:20:45.360 was explained.

01:20:47.340 Clearly.

01:20:47.820 I mean, a three-year-old could look at that and know, you know, that looked like that

01:20:54.160 hotel in Vegas that we watched them bring down intentionally, you know?

01:20:59.360 So that's how I met Alex, was reaching out to him.

01:21:03.660 You trust your eyes.

01:21:04.500 You've always trusted your own perceptions.

01:21:07.000 Yeah.

01:21:07.680 And, but I, I did this in the middle of two and a half at its peak, decided to be vocal

01:21:16.020 about 9-11.

01:21:17.860 And then network in the studio, they were like, oh my gosh, there's actually a commercial

01:21:23.080 because one of the advantages we had with that show promotionally was the NFL because

01:21:28.940 we were a Monday show all of Sunday, all the CBS football games on Sunday were just, you

01:21:34.980 know, every 20 minutes it's a commercial for us.

01:21:37.880 And that is like a built-in thing to keep the ratings and the momentum in the eyes and

01:21:42.880 all of it.

01:21:43.340 Yeah.

01:21:43.520 And it was, it was great.

01:21:45.220 It was the best tool you could possibly have.

01:21:47.160 Um, so they made a commercial, like a promo and it's probably on YouTube somewhere, someone

01:21:58.780 out there is going to find it.

01:21:59.840 Right.

01:22:00.200 Um, and it opens with, um, Charlie has a lot of questions.

01:22:06.700 And then my character would be, Hey Alan, uh, you know, where'd you hide the beer?

01:22:12.500 Uh, Hey mom, where'd I leave my car?

01:22:14.720 Um, Charlie's really curious.

01:22:18.480 Hey, uh, yeah.

01:22:20.120 You know, is that, is that, is that, uh, is that, is that, is that, is that, is that a

01:22:24.180 silk bra or is that polyester?

01:22:26.120 Whatever, like actual lines from the show to support Charlie's curiosity, Charlie Harper,

01:22:32.220 right?

01:22:32.480 Yeah.

01:22:32.820 But Charlie in the world, like going into places that on a corporate level with a giant

01:22:38.200 hit show, your lead actor is not supposed to be doing.

01:22:42.120 So they tried to make it kind of like, Hey, he's doing these things, but don't worry.

01:22:46.720 He's still, he's still in our world doing them.

01:22:49.820 You know, they, they just, it was, it was kind of a brilliant piece of propaganda.

01:22:54.060 If you think about it, right?

01:22:55.420 I was just thinking that it's a Judo move.

01:22:57.260 You take the energy and you pull it in your direction.

01:22:59.380 Right.

01:22:59.680 Yeah.

01:23:00.000 And I remember watching it and I was flattered that they like put all that energy into this

01:23:05.760 thing that I'm sure was upsetting a lot of people.

01:23:08.680 And I never saw it again.

01:23:13.000 Did they ever say anything to you directly about your questions about 9-11?

01:23:17.100 Kind of, but not really.

01:23:20.400 Things like, um, maybe it's not the best time to be doing this kind of research, kid.

01:23:28.580 But maybe, uh, you know, take a little, a little pause for the cause.

01:23:35.540 Um, yeah, it was, and, and yeah, they, they, but they didn't like, you know, show up at

01:23:42.720 my house.

01:23:44.040 Right.

01:23:44.540 Like they did for, you know, going crazy on dope, um, or testosterone.

01:23:50.080 Um, but yeah, they, they, they were, they were nervous.

01:23:54.860 And so, and I did pull it back.

01:23:58.060 I did organize a symposium in LA though.

01:24:00.900 It's a three day event called a weekend of truth.

01:24:03.980 Alex Jones was the key speaker in the middle of two and a half.

01:24:07.720 Um, seriously.

01:24:09.240 Yeah, I did.

01:24:10.040 Yeah.

01:24:11.060 Yeah.

01:24:11.680 Did you feel that your job was at risk by doing that?

01:24:15.160 I thought the other stuff was more important than, than my job.

01:24:18.820 Um, yeah.

01:24:20.400 Really?

01:24:21.040 Yeah.

01:24:22.060 No, I, it just.

01:24:23.100 How many lead actors on hit shows put anything above their job?

01:24:26.820 Um, cult of one.

01:24:29.800 Yeah.

01:24:30.180 None.

01:24:31.080 None.

01:24:31.440 Well, dad, my dad has at times gone heavily against the grain in the face of, you know,

01:24:37.640 the same type of pressure.

01:24:39.480 Yes.

01:24:40.100 Um, but yeah, no, that was.

01:24:43.800 And then, um, when Alex and I got together and, you know, I sent him that email that I told

01:24:49.440 you about.

01:24:49.720 Yeah.

01:24:49.960 Yeah.

01:24:50.140 And, and my last line was zero hour is upon us.

01:24:53.260 So, so just for people who weren't at breakfast here.

01:24:56.300 Yeah.

01:24:56.440 Yeah.

01:24:56.600 Yeah.

01:24:56.740 You said that you saw something he did and you just emailed him cold.

01:25:03.180 I did.

01:25:05.060 I said, hi, Alex.

01:25:06.160 I'm a fan for years.

01:25:07.800 Uh, perhaps you've heard of me.

01:25:09.580 My name is Charlie Shane.

01:25:10.520 I said, uh, we, we, we, we have to talk zero hours upon us.

01:25:15.640 And he, and he called in 10 minutes.

01:25:18.360 Amazing.

01:25:18.960 Yeah.

01:25:19.560 And then flew out to see you.

01:25:21.040 Yeah.

01:25:21.720 Yeah.

01:25:22.120 And then we thought, okay, let's build a secret weapon.

01:25:24.180 Let's do something that, that like, uh, is unique and, and, and, uh, you know, uh, let's

01:25:31.320 do something within, in the media.

01:25:34.480 Let's use the media to, to try to, um, I guess this would have been 07, 08.

01:25:41.500 Yes.

01:25:42.220 So we got together and we, and we wrote this piece called 20 minutes with the president

01:25:46.080 and what it was, it was a fictional, um, um, retelling of this 20 minutes that I was granted

01:25:56.620 by Obama.

01:25:58.640 And it was me sitting down with him, um, asking him 20 questions about 9-11 and, and asking

01:26:05.940 him that, that based on, on these irrefutable bullet points that, that if, if he would

01:26:13.180 consider activating, you know, reopening, um, a new 9-11 commission and we put it online

01:26:22.360 and what we.

01:26:23.460 And this was, you didn't actually get 20 minutes with Obama to ask.

01:26:26.140 No, it was all made up.

01:26:27.420 It was all made up.

01:26:28.080 But the research that Alex and I, um, dug into that, that we, that we, cause we, you

01:26:34.380 know, we, we, we, it could have been a hundred.

01:26:35.940 Uh, it could have been a hundred questions, could have been a hundred minutes with the

01:26:39.220 president.

01:26:39.500 And, um, we, we, we drilled down into the 20 things that were really bulletproof, really

01:26:46.800 bulletproof.

01:26:48.020 And so, uh, we, we published it online and, and we let it kind of marinate for about 20

01:26:54.620 minutes before we added, um, the following, um, has, has, has, has not taken, didn't actually

01:27:02.100 take place, but we're hoping one day that it, that it could.

01:27:05.640 Or that it might, or, so we did let kind of the hysteria build a little bit that people

01:27:10.980 thought, holy hell, man, did Sheen and Obama, right?

01:27:14.480 Like this thing actually happened.

01:27:16.060 And cause we didn't want to prejudice it with it being a, you know, a work of fiction right

01:27:22.100 from send.

01:27:23.280 And, uh, it was a little bit of a manipulation, um, but so what, right?

01:27:30.200 I mean.

01:27:30.660 Did anyone from the Obama white house reach out to you?

01:27:33.440 There's a guy, um, he was the deputy press secretary.

01:27:37.440 His name was Bill something.

01:27:39.280 Um, and.

01:27:40.940 Bill Burton?

01:27:41.140 Bill Burton?

01:27:43.060 Yes.

01:27:44.780 Yeah.

01:27:45.360 He called me.

01:27:46.300 I got the memory.

01:27:47.140 Well done.

01:27:48.040 Thank you.

01:27:48.740 Yeah.

01:27:49.400 Cause I knew his name was the same two initials.

01:27:52.240 Yeah.

01:27:52.660 He called me and I said, uh, how's it?

01:27:55.620 Yeah.

01:27:55.780 Hey, thank you.

01:27:57.260 And he's like, yeah, that, that, that, that thing that you and your buddy wrote, uh, that,

01:28:01.480 that, that, that meeting you're looking for never going to happen.

01:28:04.520 Those were his words.

01:28:07.480 Never going to happen.

01:28:09.000 I said, well, that's a shame because it really should.

01:28:12.100 He said, okay.

01:28:12.720 All right.

01:28:13.180 Good luck to you.

01:28:13.660 Have a nice day.

01:28:14.600 It was like a 14 second phone call.

01:28:18.360 Yeah.

01:28:18.960 But anyway, so yeah.

01:28:21.200 And I guess, and then Alex said, look, when this thing goes out, they're not going to debate

01:28:24.980 any of it.

01:28:25.620 Cause, cause we, you know, we told, uh, it was Bill O'Reilly.

01:28:28.640 It was Harold Rivera.

01:28:29.680 We said, we'll, we'll sit down and debate you just on these 20 things.

01:28:33.040 And nobody bit.

01:28:34.100 And Alex said, look, they're just going to call you.

01:28:35.900 Nobody bit.

01:28:36.860 No, nobody, nobody, nobody took the challenge.

01:28:41.060 And you're at the height of the show's popularity.

01:28:43.780 Yeah.

01:28:44.160 Nobody took the debate challenge.

01:28:46.320 You're one of the most famous actors in the world and you're offering talk show hosts

01:28:51.960 the opportunity to be on their show.

01:28:53.880 Right.

01:28:54.680 To talk about something that is really interesting and controversial.

01:28:57.220 And they say, no, they said no.

01:28:58.840 Yeah.

01:28:59.380 What do you think?

01:28:59.820 Now, what do you think that is, Charlie Sheen?

01:29:02.140 That's a little weird.

01:29:03.420 It's a little weird.

01:29:04.100 Having been in the talk show business, I can promise you.

01:29:06.400 Yeah.

01:29:07.260 It was.

01:29:07.900 You should have called me, man.

01:29:08.740 I would have done it in a second.

01:29:10.100 Yeah.

01:29:10.400 Well.

01:29:10.920 Probably scolded you for your ridiculous questions, but I still would have done it.

01:29:14.860 Right.

01:29:15.320 Yeah.

01:29:16.560 Our, our, our, our disrespecting memory of the victims.

01:29:19.640 Yeah.

01:29:20.040 How dare we?

01:29:20.680 Finding out why they were murdered is disrespect.

01:29:23.520 Right.

01:29:24.160 Wow.

01:29:24.460 Now, I know it's insane.

01:29:25.520 And I'm, I always force myself to admit that I had these views because I want to be less

01:29:32.720 judgmental toward other people and reminding yourself what an asshole you are is a really

01:29:37.940 good way to be less judgmental.

01:29:39.980 But also because it's like, it's a feature of human nature that we don't want to know the

01:29:44.900 truth about things actually.

01:29:46.380 Interesting.

01:29:46.940 Don't you think that's true?

01:29:48.460 Well, it's clearly not true for you, but it has been true for me.

01:29:51.460 I don't want to know.

01:29:52.540 Right.

01:29:52.780 I don't want to know that.

01:29:53.400 What, what, what do, what do we then do with that, with that information?

01:29:58.620 Trust me, I'm not defending that attitude at all.

01:30:01.140 I'm ashamed that I had it, but I just think it's more calm.

01:30:03.760 And I think of myself as like one of the most open-minded people I know.

01:30:06.620 I mean, I am very, very open-minded.

01:30:09.220 I'll entertain any possibility because I've seen so much that you can't not entertain any

01:30:14.180 possibility.

01:30:14.700 Right.

01:30:16.080 But if I have felt that way, that means that it's probably just how people are built and

01:30:22.080 you have to convince them that they should know what's true, that the truth does matter

01:30:25.600 actually.

01:30:26.100 It does.

01:30:26.700 It does.

01:30:28.020 But Alex said, they're just going to paint you as, as crazy.

01:30:32.080 Well, of course.

01:30:33.120 But, and, and, and I said, really?

01:30:35.560 That's like, they can't get more creative than that?

01:30:37.840 He says, no, they're just going to call you crazy.

01:30:39.920 And smash cut to like a week later.

01:30:42.460 And it was, it was literally, it was Bill O'Reilly and it was Geraldo.

01:30:46.980 And they just dismissed me in one sense.

01:30:49.020 Well, Charlie Sheen's obviously crazy.

01:30:51.280 No.

01:30:51.720 Yeah.

01:30:53.040 Yeah.

01:30:53.640 Someone can find that clip.

01:30:54.920 I'm sure.

01:30:55.560 Handmaidens to power.

01:30:56.780 Wow.

01:30:57.180 That is.

01:30:57.860 Yeah.

01:30:58.940 That is.

01:30:59.820 But then I saw Bill O'Reilly outside of Dr. Oz one day.

01:31:04.560 I saw him in the parking lot.

01:31:06.540 He was just over there.

01:31:07.220 I guess he was the second guest or he'd already come out or something.

01:31:10.620 And I started walking right up to him.

01:31:12.420 He's kind of a big dude, right?

01:31:13.700 He's huge.

01:31:14.320 Yeah.

01:31:14.720 He said, he's not going to punch me, are you?

01:31:17.100 I said, no, I'm not stupid.

01:31:18.820 I don't want to get my ass kicked.

01:31:20.360 He's like, well, I said, I just came over to give you a handshake.

01:31:23.760 I just want to shake your hand.

01:31:25.040 He was like, oh, well, oh, okay.

01:31:26.140 Well, good to meet you.

01:31:27.820 I said, nice to meet you.

01:31:29.620 And he's like, yeah, sorry about the dubs.

01:31:31.180 I said, I don't care.

01:31:33.140 I don't care.

01:31:34.020 You know, I get it.

01:31:35.140 It's showbiz.

01:31:36.800 That's what I said to him.

01:31:37.500 It's showbiz.

01:31:38.740 What did he say?

01:31:39.860 He laughed.

01:31:41.220 And then we both went in and had a pretty good episode with us.

01:31:45.500 So, but it was a trip.

01:31:47.340 He was like, he was on his heels a little bit.

01:31:49.640 Yeah.

01:31:50.960 He's not as comfortable with human contact.

01:31:52.600 Yeah, that's pretty disgraceful on all of our parts.

01:31:56.940 And I wouldn't have, I don't think I would have called you crazy because objectively, it's not crazy to ask about why the greatest tragedy in American history happened.

01:32:05.000 I didn't think it was.

01:32:06.380 It's not.

01:32:07.000 And it's still not.

01:32:09.440 Shutting people down for asking sincere questions is, you know, very hard to defend, I think.

01:32:16.260 Yeah.

01:32:16.740 Wow.

01:32:17.300 But anyway, that's the Alex Jones kind of origin story, you know.

01:32:20.920 That's amazing.

01:32:21.680 Yeah.

01:32:21.940 I just wish I could tell you where I actually acquired the videos and it had to have been online, like mail order stuff.

01:32:29.180 So you really cared.

01:32:30.920 Yeah.

01:32:31.280 Yeah.

01:32:32.060 And he just, the stuff that I'd seen, he just was a guy that was just on the constant hunt for the truth and just, you know, for the right reasons.

01:32:42.380 Yes.

01:32:42.680 Not to exploit it, but to, but to expose it and share it and do something about it.

01:32:48.080 I think that's all noble.

01:32:49.760 And I, and I think that of him, you know, and I think, by the way, he's been vindicated on by time.

01:32:56.180 I think, I don't think quite as many people mock Alex Jones as crazy anymore at all.

01:33:00.880 They can't.

01:33:01.540 No, that's exactly right.

01:33:02.360 He called 9-11.

01:33:03.300 Really?

01:33:03.520 Did you call 9-11?

01:33:04.440 I don't think you did.

01:33:05.120 No, I didn't.

01:33:05.700 Nobody did.

01:33:06.180 Nobody did.

01:33:06.620 Alex Jones did.

01:33:07.480 So right there, we know that he's worth taking seriously.

01:33:10.780 In fact, it's worth asking, how did you do that?

01:33:12.680 I've asked him many times, never gotten a straight answer, but we know for a fact he did.

01:33:15.840 It's documented.

01:33:16.540 So that's incredible.

01:33:17.960 My dad spent some time with him.

01:33:19.600 Really?

01:33:19.960 Yeah, because we asked dad to read the president role because we wrote it like a play when it

01:33:26.980 gets to the thing about the actual conversation that we have.

01:33:30.740 And we wanted to hear it out loud to see if it sounded like legit exchanges of, of, of dialogue.

01:33:36.880 And he was currently playing the president, right?

01:33:41.900 So he and I played the scene.

01:33:45.180 So you both had big shows at the same time.

01:33:47.380 Yeah.

01:33:47.680 On, on the same lot.

01:33:48.960 We'd visit each other like at lunch.

01:33:51.180 No way.

01:33:51.960 Not often because we were both super busy, but yeah.

01:33:54.680 They overlapped by, I think, two seasons, maybe three.

01:33:57.300 What lot?

01:33:58.380 Warner.

01:33:58.960 Yeah.

01:33:59.220 The Warner Brothers lot.

01:33:59.960 Yeah.

01:34:00.900 And then, so dad spent some time with Alex and anytime he'd leave the room, dad was like,

01:34:05.680 I don't know, man.

01:34:06.320 I think, I think this guy's ex-CIA.

01:34:08.300 I think he's too smart.

01:34:09.720 He knows everything.

01:34:10.860 I think he's, I think he's got a background that is like this thing.

01:34:16.060 Interesting.

01:34:16.360 Yeah.

01:34:17.860 Which was him complimenting Alex.

01:34:21.000 Well, and it's the way that people talk now.

01:34:22.740 It was not the way people talk then.

01:34:24.260 Right.

01:34:24.580 So that's just, that's interesting.

01:34:25.880 I mean, now that just sounds like Twitter.

01:34:27.500 Right.

01:34:27.980 But then people took things at face value.

01:34:30.920 Right.

01:34:32.500 I mean, do you remember, well, obviously you were in a different world.

01:34:35.180 So how did other people in Hollywood react to the, so you're at Nobu in Malibu and you

01:34:41.140 say, I don't really understand how Tower 7 came down.

01:34:43.900 What do people say?

01:34:45.380 It's not, it's, it's, there's more resistance to it than alignment.

01:34:51.580 Yeah.

01:34:52.020 Yeah.

01:34:52.460 Not, not, not, not so much anymore, but at the time in that moment when, you know, it

01:34:57.640 was like the lone voice out there, at least in my industry.

01:35:00.920 But it was a lot of support from, you know, architects for truth, pilots for truth, all

01:35:07.060 of those various associations.

01:35:08.600 Actual experts, you mean?

01:35:09.760 Those guys.

01:35:10.660 Yeah.

01:35:10.960 Right.

01:35:11.800 Yeah.

01:35:12.500 Yeah.

01:35:12.900 Um, so you're just reminding me, how did this interview get started, set up in the first

01:35:17.880 place?

01:35:18.360 I totally forgot about this.

01:35:20.400 Like you wound up at this table this morning.

01:35:22.220 Cause why?

01:35:22.880 Because, um, I saw a promo on somewhere on, online, not even on YouTube, um, that, uh,

01:35:35.400 Sean Stone had directed a six part documentary called All the President's Men and the only

01:35:40.920 place that it could be viewed was on your platform.

01:35:43.660 Yes.

01:35:43.920 And so I, um, I, I signed up and I watched it all six episodes, uh, in one day.

01:35:54.040 Wow.

01:35:54.860 Yeah.

01:35:55.260 And, um, and, and had to sit down and have a conversation with myself about just everything

01:36:04.640 that, uh, well, it, it, it goes back.

01:36:07.920 It just, it, it, it, it was, it was a gear I was familiar with because it was, it was,

01:36:13.640 it was a doubt, it was a downshift that, that, that made sense because it goes back

01:36:18.280 to a guy that does his own research.

01:36:21.060 Yes.

01:36:21.520 And I hadn't for so long, I hadn't done my own research for so long.

01:36:26.480 And, um, you know, I, I, I decided that when the second Trump victory, right.

01:36:36.420 And that I was not going to allow myself to feel how I felt during the first one, I just

01:36:43.240 wasn't going to do it because it just wasn't, it wasn't healthy for me.

01:36:46.440 Yeah.

01:36:46.980 It wasn't, it didn't, it didn't, no, no part of my life got better feeling like that every

01:36:53.400 single day and being told who I was supposed to despise and why I was supposed to despise

01:37:00.240 them, you know, and you were on that list.

01:37:02.360 Yeah.

01:37:02.960 And, um, I was on the despised list.

01:37:05.000 Yeah.

01:37:05.500 Yeah.

01:37:05.720 Yeah.

01:37:06.320 I mean, it's, and so, you know, apologies.

01:37:10.400 Um, I'm, but I've been so despised for so long that the sting is gone.

01:37:15.940 No, but I watched that documentary and it just, I, I, now I was armed with some fresh

01:37:23.120 data.

01:37:24.060 Did you know Sean Stone?

01:37:25.260 Yeah.

01:37:25.540 I've known him since wall street.

01:37:27.360 He plays Michael Douglas's tiny child in the movie.

01:37:31.160 No way.

01:37:32.040 Yeah.

01:37:32.380 So I've known him since he was a child.

01:37:33.800 And then I reconnected with him as an adult and we had talked about a project here or

01:37:38.620 there.

01:37:38.920 He would write a script and send it to me.

01:37:40.460 I'm like, he's a good guy.

01:37:41.340 He's a great guy.

01:37:41.880 Yeah.

01:37:42.100 Really smart.

01:37:42.900 Really cool.

01:37:43.160 Just texted me right now.

01:37:44.020 I know.

01:37:44.520 I know.

01:37:45.120 Yeah.

01:37:45.400 Strange.

01:37:45.840 Yeah.

01:37:46.440 And so I, um, you know, I would read a script that he wrote and say, oh, it's, it's not

01:37:51.900 for me, but it's really good, you know?

01:37:53.760 And then I didn't talk to him for a while and then saw that he'd done this and, and, and

01:37:59.360 done it brilliantly.

01:38:00.120 And so it just, it created a desire to, to, uh, just, you know, embark on what I can describe

01:38:09.540 as an experiment, an experiment who just changing the channel, just, you know, stop listening

01:38:16.400 to the chorus of, of nonsense that, uh, you know, in the, in the, the, the other thing

01:38:25.940 that, that, that twilight zone that I was stuck in for.

01:38:28.340 And it's just so dumb.

01:38:30.300 Yeah.

01:38:30.500 The funny thing is that Sean did that series.

01:38:32.580 We, we didn't, um, produced for him at all.

01:38:35.340 He came to us with the series.

01:38:36.960 I think I'm actually in the series.

01:38:38.840 Yeah.

01:38:39.400 Yeah.

01:38:40.280 Um, so he came to my house and I, you know, sat for it and everything.

01:38:44.720 And I like Sean a lot.

01:38:46.640 I really like his, I know his dad and I, and I admire his dad.

01:38:49.620 I do agree with him on everything, but like, I think he's an honest guy and I think he's

01:38:53.880 a brave guy and he's, by the way, earned the right to have his opinions as far

01:38:57.780 as I'm concerned.

01:38:58.420 Yeah.

01:38:59.180 Having dropped out of Yale to serve in the infantry during Vietnam.

01:39:03.120 And like, he's a good man.

01:39:04.780 Uh, Oliver is.

01:39:06.040 Anyway, but he, uh, I don't think he could get it aired anywhere.

01:39:10.520 That's the crazy thing.

01:39:11.440 Interesting.

01:39:12.160 Yeah.

01:39:12.380 Things have changed so much.

01:39:13.780 Right.

01:39:14.640 That the level of open-mindedness in the world that he grew up in is just gone.

01:39:18.300 There's just no open-mindedness.

01:39:19.560 Sure.

01:39:19.840 It's like, here's the story.

01:39:20.820 Deviate from it.

01:39:21.500 We'll kill you.

01:39:22.180 Right.

01:39:22.360 It's like, it's crazy rigid.

01:39:24.860 Do you feel that?

01:39:25.940 I do.

01:39:26.520 I do.

01:39:26.980 Um, yeah, but it, it, it just really, it brought me to a place to, to, to, to continue with further

01:39:36.060 research.

01:39:36.840 Yeah.

01:39:37.120 Into, into some of these subjects, you know, and, and, and to, uh, as I said, change the

01:39:42.940 channel, you know, and, and, and, um, you know, like most experiments, uh, the, the, the

01:39:51.760 results are constantly evolving.

01:39:54.100 Yeah.

01:39:54.720 Right.

01:39:55.220 Um, but, but so far I'm, I'm, I'm pretty happy with those results.

01:40:00.240 It's kind of wild who you wind up talking to and agreeing with.

01:40:03.340 Yeah.

01:40:03.840 Isn't it?

01:40:04.540 Oh yeah.

01:40:05.000 Yeah.

01:40:05.400 Yeah.

01:40:05.980 Well, also if you're, if you're told to feel a certain way about someone because of this

01:40:11.180 specific set of examples or reasons or whatever, and then you decide one day you're, you're,

01:40:18.420 you're, you're going to investigate on your own.

01:40:20.520 Oh yes.

01:40:21.140 And, and then you're, you come to something that is the exact opposite of how you were told

01:40:28.480 to feel.

01:40:29.540 Oh yes.

01:40:30.380 Because you decided to, I don't know, be autonomous maybe.

01:40:34.280 Right.

01:40:34.560 And, and just exercise.

01:40:36.740 Live as a free man.

01:40:37.620 Yeah.

01:40:37.880 There's that part.

01:40:38.800 Yeah.

01:40:39.240 Yeah.

01:40:39.740 And so, uh, it's, it's been quite liberating.

01:40:42.880 The distance between what you're told someone is and what you discover when you spend time

01:40:47.680 with the person is, it's really vast.

01:40:50.560 I had that experience with Oliver Stone and I'll be honest.

01:40:53.020 I mean, I always thought Oliver Stone was a kook, a conspiracy nut.

01:40:57.400 But I was told to believe that I accepted it uncritically.

01:41:01.240 Years later, I wind up at Oliver Stone's house in Los Angeles alone, just me and Oliver

01:41:05.820 Stone about something specific.

01:41:08.660 And I'm like, I can't believe I'm at Oliver Stone's house.

01:41:11.780 Like, wow.

01:41:12.500 You know what I mean?

01:41:13.360 That's, I'm sure you've had this feeling.

01:41:14.520 Sure.

01:41:14.860 Maybe you have it right now.

01:41:15.680 I'm having it right now.

01:41:16.940 I am.

01:41:17.980 So sorry.

01:41:19.080 And I'm like, and have been for the last hour.

01:41:21.000 Yeah.

01:41:21.300 So I'm like midway through this conversation with Oliver Stone and I'm like, Oliver Stone

01:41:26.200 is a really nice man, a courtly man, very smart.

01:41:30.120 Yeah.

01:41:30.840 And has thought through everything that he's saying.

01:41:34.100 And by the way, I agree with everything I've heard him say.

01:41:37.000 I don't agree with the things I've heard said about him.

01:41:39.240 Right.

01:41:39.900 Like those are bad.

01:41:40.960 Sure.

01:41:41.340 But what he's actually saying to me, I'm like, I completely agree with you.

01:41:46.300 And also you're a decent person.

01:41:48.080 And so I'm like, why did I, and then I really felt misled, I guess is what I'm trying to

01:41:53.620 say.

01:41:53.900 Yeah.

01:41:54.220 I had been lied to.

01:41:55.960 And that's not the only case where I've been lied to and where I uncritically accepted

01:41:59.580 those lies.

01:42:00.240 And so then you feel stung by that.

01:42:01.880 Like what?

01:42:02.400 You lied to me because you didn't want me to have this conversation.

01:42:06.580 I don't know who I'm referring to when I say you, but like the media environment that

01:42:11.120 I grew up in and that my views were formed in was dishonest, really dishonest and probably

01:42:15.980 intentionally so, and probably part of the design was to prevent me from ever talking

01:42:20.880 to people with whom I might share common ground because that would be a threat to the people

01:42:25.080 lying to me.

01:42:25.900 Of course.

01:42:27.780 Yeah.

01:42:28.380 Yeah.

01:42:28.960 No, you're, you're, you're, you're telling my story too.

01:42:31.940 Well, it's just, I wouldn't have had this experience if it weren't for my job where,

01:42:36.820 you know, the one upside is I can talk to a lot of people, you know, you can have people's

01:42:40.080 phone numbers, you can call them.

01:42:41.600 Sure.

01:42:42.180 Why is he calling me?

01:42:43.160 Okay.

01:42:43.340 I'll take the call.

01:42:44.160 Like you have the chance to actually meet people that you hear about.

01:42:48.280 But I think for most people who have normal jobs, like how would they ever wind up at

01:42:51.720 Oliver Stone's house?

01:42:52.400 They wouldn't.

01:42:53.120 No.

01:42:53.960 Right.

01:42:54.320 So they would never know that they, not only that he's a good guy and worth listening to,

01:42:58.440 but also that they've been lied to.

01:43:00.240 They have no idea because they're never going to get out within, you know, a thousand yards

01:43:03.840 of Oliver Stone or whatever.

01:43:05.480 Right, right, right.

01:43:05.900 So the deception is really subtle and incredibly effective.

01:43:13.900 But it's, you know, what it's taught me is just to go, just to, you know, trust going

01:43:21.680 back to basics and not, until I have an experience with a person that, you know, that I can't

01:43:30.960 rely on the opinions of others because of, you know, just how, you know, however they've

01:43:39.460 chosen to see the world.

01:43:42.440 Exactly.

01:43:42.960 You know, or, or experience the world.

01:43:46.080 You got to spend the weekend in Moscow.

01:43:48.220 That will make you as angry as you've ever been because not because, you know, you know,

01:43:53.820 I'm not Russian.

01:43:54.380 I'm not moving to Moscow.

01:43:54.980 I don't want to move to Moscow.

01:43:56.100 I want to live in my country.

01:43:57.980 I don't love Russia for some weird reason.

01:44:01.400 I just, I was angry because I was like, this is nothing like I thought it was.

01:44:05.540 I'd never been here.

01:44:06.540 It's very hard to get there.

01:44:07.640 You're not going to go there by accident.

01:44:09.060 You have to really try to get there.

01:44:10.760 Probably won't even succeed.

01:44:11.760 I did succeed.

01:44:13.280 And I learned like, oh my gosh, they've been lying about this.

01:44:17.700 And so then I tried to say, you know, we've been lied to about what it's actually like.

01:44:22.360 You can make your own judgments about the politics and Putin and Ukraine or whatever.

01:44:25.740 It's totally up to you to decide what you think about that.

01:44:28.000 But the physical reality of that city is undeniable to anyone who walks through it.

01:44:33.660 And so I say this and it's like, shut up, Putin's dude.

01:44:35.980 I was like, no, no, no, no, no.

01:44:36.820 I'm not defending Putin.

01:44:39.180 Or maybe, you know, whatever.

01:44:40.800 It's nothing to do with Putin.

01:44:41.880 Look at the city.

01:44:42.940 This is insane.

01:44:43.780 And you lied about it.

01:44:45.240 And I'm mad at you.

01:44:46.820 Shut up.

01:44:47.780 It's like, that will blow your mind.

01:44:50.420 Don't go there.

01:44:51.720 Okay.

01:44:52.420 Yeah.

01:44:52.820 Because you don't need the aggravation.

01:44:54.680 Okay.

01:44:55.940 No, no, no, no trips planned there anytime soon.

01:44:58.940 No, you can't go.

01:44:59.600 I was there in 94.

01:45:01.320 Oh, when it was tough, right?

01:45:03.020 Yeah.

01:45:03.820 Yeah.

01:45:04.500 And we shot, it was bad.

01:45:07.880 I mean, not the worst film, but it should have been a great film.

01:45:10.580 And it wasn't, it was a disappointment.

01:45:12.480 It's called Terminal Velocity.

01:45:14.160 It was a skydiving thing with Nastassia Kinski.

01:45:17.780 Whatever, what was she like?

01:45:19.280 She was pretty cool.

01:45:20.840 She was pretty cool.

01:45:21.880 Yeah.

01:45:22.120 She's sexy and fun.

01:45:23.580 And what happened to her?

01:45:25.240 Um, I, she's still around, right?

01:45:28.100 I mean, I don't know.

01:45:29.960 I think she was dating Quincy Jones at the time.

01:45:33.260 Yeah.

01:45:33.660 And so they, um, their relationship was a little bit bristly, you know?

01:45:39.360 Yeah.

01:45:39.540 So she'd be on the phone with him in her trailer and then, yeah, and then she'd come out of the set and, and at times, you know, was still carrying the tail end of that conversation into the scene.

01:45:49.740 But I, I had a terrific time working with her.

01:45:52.620 Um, I hope she's doing well, but, so we went there just for like four days or, uh, myself, uh, Chris McDonald.

01:46:03.160 Um, anyway, and I get to the airport and Chris and I are just on the way there.

01:46:07.360 I mean, how long is that flight?

01:46:08.280 14?

01:46:08.900 Quite long.

01:46:09.400 Yeah.

01:46:09.520 Yeah.

01:46:09.780 We're hammered and I'm in the airport and there's a guy before I can even like find my bags.

01:46:16.960 Who's, who's up in my face screaming, taxi, taxi, taxi, taxi.

01:46:20.400 Right.

01:46:20.760 And I just, I don't need a taxi.

01:46:23.280 I know there's a car waiting for him.

01:46:24.780 I don't speak Russian, you know?

01:46:26.900 And I'm like, I'm fine.

01:46:27.880 I'm fine.

01:46:28.280 No, no, no.

01:46:28.800 It's like taxi, taxi, taxi.

01:46:30.320 And I'm just, at some point it somehow got to fuck off.

01:46:33.540 Right.

01:46:34.400 I bet pretty quickly.

01:46:35.940 Um, no, it did about two minutes.

01:46:38.940 I was trying to be patient, but I did say fuck off out loud, but it wasn't like fuck off.

01:46:45.000 It was just fuck, you know, fuck off, man.

01:46:47.120 Um, yeah, I just kind of threw it to the, to the, to the clouds.

01:46:51.960 And I guess fuck off there means something a lot different than it means where I come from.

01:46:57.940 And the guy lost his fucking mind.

01:47:00.600 It's pretty tough here too, I would say, even in English.

01:47:03.440 Right.

01:47:03.980 But he, he started repeating it.

01:47:07.180 Fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off.

01:47:09.160 And he, he tried to go out.

01:47:10.220 He tried to get to me.

01:47:11.020 And so whoever was with us had to get between the two of us and like, keep this guy from like, really doing some damage, you know?

01:47:21.480 At the airport.

01:47:22.100 At the airport.

01:47:22.960 Yeah.

01:47:23.360 So I, after that, I only saw the hotel and I saw the set where we shot and my trailer.

01:47:32.120 That was it.

01:47:33.760 Yeah.

01:47:34.140 I was like, okay, this is, the rules are a lot different.

01:47:37.940 Well, 94 was kind of a famously low ebb, I think, for Russia.

01:47:42.000 Yeah.

01:47:42.680 So that's my Russian air flight experience.

01:47:44.960 Lots of killings.

01:47:46.320 So you were, you're on a media tour for the book and the doc and you were doing Rogan last week when Charlie Kirk was murdered.

01:47:54.380 Yeah.

01:47:54.960 You were actually in the middle of the interview?

01:47:57.520 We were.

01:47:58.240 Yeah.

01:47:58.540 Yeah.

01:47:58.700 And like we just had the bathroom break, I said to Joe, I said, is it cool?

01:48:08.360 Can we pause so I can, I can hit the head?

01:48:10.340 And he says, yeah, we, you know, we can, we can wrap it up pretty soon.

01:48:12.880 And I said, well, let's just cover, let's just do a couple more minutes at the end to just cover one more thing and then we can wrap it up.

01:48:20.260 And he's like, you got it.

01:48:21.220 And then, so the producer pauses and, and as soon as he, as soon as we're clear, he says, Joe, there's, there's, there's breaking news and it's, and it's, and it's, and it's really bad and it's everywhere and it's really bad.

01:48:36.280 And Joe's, no, he says, Joe, don't look at your phone.

01:48:40.040 And Joe's like, tell me.

01:48:41.200 He says, breaking news really bad.

01:48:42.400 And Joe says, what's going on?

01:48:44.080 And he says, Charlie Kirk's been shot and he's clinging to life.

01:48:48.820 And it was just, it was, suddenly everything was different, you know, for all the wrong reasons.

01:48:57.040 It was just awful, awful.

01:49:00.340 And then we, like 30 seconds later, we, we go out in the lobby and one of his security guys says to Joe, he just died.

01:49:12.360 Charlie's dead.

01:49:14.140 And then it's, went from bad to just, it's as, as awful as it could have been, you know?

01:49:22.260 And it was, I hate to say it, it felt surreal.

01:49:26.420 Yeah, it always does.

01:49:27.800 I don't want to be disrespectful.

01:49:29.500 That's not disrespectful, but that's the experience that every person has when something that shocking happens.

01:49:33.380 We sit together and then we couldn't really get the details.

01:49:38.360 Then we went, we finally wound up in the bathroom and Joe said, we, we, we need to talk about this on the air.

01:49:44.780 And I said, yes, we do.

01:49:46.320 And so we came back on and then I guess what they've been playing a lot is, is us coming out of that moment.

01:49:52.540 And for me, it was, it was, it was, I immediately went to fatherless children, husbandless widow.

01:50:01.300 And it was just that, that part of it breaks my heart.

01:50:03.900 Yeah.

01:50:04.560 You know?

01:50:04.920 And it's just, and for what, and for what, you know?

01:50:11.580 I mean, I, I, I, I, I've been as mad and, and, and, and, and as did in, in, and complete disagreement, just the absolute total, you know, nuclear frustration with people.

01:50:25.920 And you've never thought like, well, now this is, this has to be the next logical step.

01:50:31.700 This is the thing that I now must do because of how they've made me feel with their words.

01:50:38.300 It's just that, that, that that's where, where, where we've arrived.

01:50:43.660 It's where we're at, you know?

01:50:46.160 Um, if, if, if, if, if that's the case, we can't stay here.

01:50:50.980 No, we can't.

01:50:52.300 Um, and, um, what?

01:50:55.980 What his wife said at his memorial, um, pretty powerful, you know, is a, is a, is a, is a, you thought you were going to silence him with that?

01:51:05.640 This will be my, my, my cries, my tears will be, will, will be the battle cry.

01:51:10.840 Yes.

01:51:11.460 That, that you'll hear around the world.

01:51:14.120 And she's not wrong.

01:51:15.140 No, she's not wrong.

01:51:15.920 That happened in the first hour.

01:51:17.500 Yeah.

01:51:17.920 You know?

01:51:18.780 Um, but yeah, you just take the politics out of it, take out and take all of it out of it.

01:51:25.180 And it's, it's a, it's, it's, it's a father.

01:51:28.400 Yes.

01:51:28.900 That, you know, that loved his children and his family and his wife and just, you know, and, and was committed to, to the things that he, you know, was so passionate about.

01:51:39.340 And all he asked people to do was, you know, just, just debate me, you know, and, and he set the example of showing up that prepared, you know, and, and challenging others to, to, to, to be equally as prepared, you know?

01:51:57.460 And even if they weren't, even if they stumbled or fumbled or didn't, couldn't get their thoughts or, you know, didn't look the part or whatever, he never demeaned, he never belittled, he never criticized, he didn't do any of that stuff.

01:52:07.420 He wasn't there to make fun of people.

01:52:09.440 He was, he was there to inspire.

01:52:11.640 He was there to, you know, you know, maybe just create just a, even just the tiniest little spark of something for someone to maybe feel something a different way.

01:52:21.660 And, and, and, and that cost him his life.

01:52:26.720 Really?

01:52:28.020 You don't want to live in that country where that happens.

01:52:31.460 I mean,

01:52:31.720 No.

01:52:33.440 Um, and it does, you know, it makes people that are in the, you know, that, that have to be in the public for the, their professions.

01:52:43.220 You know, it's like, do, you know, I'm sure a lot of people are feeling that.

01:52:51.660 You, you, you, you, you, you know, that there may be a little more censorship, you know, personal censorship, you know.

01:52:58.880 Of course.

01:52:59.280 Yeah.

01:52:59.620 Like, whoa, that's, that's what the deep end looks like now.

01:53:04.620 I think I better just stay in the kiddie pool for a minute, you know.

01:53:10.060 There's no question.

01:53:11.220 Yeah.

01:53:11.720 And, and like everything else bad, it divides people from each other.

01:53:14.920 So all of a sudden, you know, people don't want to be near each other.

01:53:18.340 You know, it causes physical separation.

01:53:20.560 Right.

01:53:20.960 Which is a hell.

01:53:22.960 It's what we do to prisoners.

01:53:24.580 It's what we do to prisoners.

01:53:26.060 Interesting.

01:53:26.800 I think.

01:53:27.400 Yeah.

01:53:27.720 You don't want to be shut in alone.

01:53:30.020 No.

01:53:30.920 That's the worst thing.

01:53:31.920 And this just divides.

01:53:33.000 It makes people suspicious, makes them hate their neighbor.

01:53:36.160 Everything about it is evil.

01:53:38.760 And, um, I think it's just important to say that.

01:53:41.600 Um, all right.

01:53:45.300 So I want to end, I never do this, but I just really believe in it.

01:53:48.480 Uh, I want to end on a product testing moment.

01:53:52.640 Amazing.

01:53:53.560 Amazing.

01:53:53.940 I want to do that because as, as noted, you know, I don't drink and, um, I'm happy with

01:53:58.360 that and I've discovered a product called Athletic Non-Alcoholic Beer, which has convinced

01:54:03.140 me that non-alcoholic beer can be amazing.

01:54:05.520 I discovered the same product, Athletic.

01:54:08.280 So I just, there was such a stigma, you know, 23 years sober, I never had a non-alcoholic

01:54:12.020 beer because I'm straight.

01:54:13.620 And then they sent me this and I was like, wow, that's incredible.

01:54:17.660 Just the taste.

01:54:18.420 So now I'm like all about non-alcoholic beer.

01:54:21.100 It's like the greatest thing ever.

01:54:22.840 And it doesn't make you as fat as other things that I like actually turns out, right?

01:54:26.740 Right.

01:54:27.000 Yeah, for sure not.

01:54:28.200 Yeah.

01:54:28.500 And, um, so you have a non-alcoholic beer.

01:54:31.660 I do.

01:54:32.180 I do.

01:54:32.600 And I'm not a spokesperson for this.

01:54:35.600 I'm a co-founder.

01:54:37.260 And a consumer, I assume.

01:54:38.640 Yes.

01:54:39.360 Yeah.

01:54:39.720 Because, um, you know, quitting, you know, booze eight years ago that, that, um, you know,

01:54:48.780 I said, always loved beer, still like beer and, you know, tried like, like you did pretty

01:54:54.580 much all the non-alcoholics that were out there.

01:54:57.160 Um, and I'm not here to shit on any of them, but, uh, a lot of them do.

01:55:02.820 Not that I would know.

01:55:03.700 But, um, but, but the good ones are, are, are good.

01:55:07.100 They're not for, for me, they're not great.

01:55:09.060 And I thought, well, how can I, how can I affect this?

01:55:11.920 How can I, uh, you know, how, how, how, how can I make this better?

01:55:15.700 Not just for myself, but for the world at large, you know?

01:55:18.920 Yeah.

01:55:19.440 And so, um, I aligned with, um, with, with, with, with three companies in, in, in partnership

01:55:27.580 with, uh, Silent Spirits, with Ryan Perry, who's the gentleman that was with me today.

01:55:33.200 Great guy.

01:55:33.560 Yeah.

01:55:33.900 Great guy.

01:55:34.620 Um, with, uh, uh, our, uh, brewery partner is Harpoon out of Boston.

01:55:40.440 Wow.

01:55:40.920 And our distribution is, uh, is, uh, uh, zero proof.

01:55:46.220 Yeah.

01:55:46.660 And so, um, but unlike, you know, just being like invited into a, a, a, a finished product

01:55:53.260 and being the pitch man, which would be the normal thing for a celebrity to do, or sorry,

01:55:58.120 an actor.

01:55:58.760 Right.

01:55:59.580 Um, I, I, I've been working on this as long and as passionately as I have, um, with the,

01:56:07.320 with the book and the doc.

01:56:08.420 And it was interesting because kind of the mantra in my house with my kids and excited

01:56:13.520 about the things I was doing, it was always, it was always book, doc, beer, book, doc, beer.

01:56:18.040 These three things were happening at the same time and we're, and we're evolving at the

01:56:22.900 same pace.

01:56:23.840 And then we didn't, we didn't realize until, um, this tour actually started that we got to

01:56:30.280 a place where we can start taking orders like first week of October and shipping of through

01:56:37.240 e-commerce, uh, a couple of weeks after that.

01:56:41.880 So this isn't like.

01:56:43.100 Cause it has no ethanol.

01:56:44.160 You can ship it.

01:56:44.960 Exactly.

01:56:45.720 Yes.

01:56:46.180 And this is something that I was, um, I was in on the development of this and in on every

01:56:51.840 stage of building the recipe.

01:56:54.040 And I'm not a beer expert.

01:56:55.800 I'm an expert on what I like and what I know to be, you know, the, the, the, uh, different

01:57:03.300 levels of quality, you know?

01:57:05.620 Um, so, so, and they were, they were really relying on me as not just a co-founder, but

01:57:11.800 a consumer, you know?

01:57:14.140 And it's, there's another thing that's kind of cool is that, um, just during this, this

01:57:21.740 eight years, the amount of people that I'll see at a restaurant or a ball game or, or just

01:57:27.380 on the street, they'll come up and say, man, I, I, I, I always wanted to have a drink with

01:57:32.600 you and, you know, I'm glad that you're sober, but I'm sad that, that, that we can't do that.

01:57:38.060 Now we can.

01:57:39.680 I love that.

01:57:40.400 Now we can have a drink together.

01:57:41.420 I feel that way.

01:57:42.560 And so I'm going to taste it.

01:57:43.780 Okay.

01:57:44.060 Do you mind?

01:57:44.380 Cool.

01:57:44.680 This is wild AF.

01:57:47.060 I guess you can fill in the acronym as you so desire, alcohol free or whatever that might

01:57:53.020 stand for.

01:57:53.460 All right.

01:57:54.700 Now you can tell I've been off my game a little bit because I totally screwed up the

01:57:57.520 head.

01:57:58.620 All right.

01:57:59.280 Some of them, there's going to be some, there's going to be some foam slurping at the beginning.

01:58:02.140 That's all right.

01:58:02.780 That's all right.

01:58:04.040 I'm barely German.

01:58:12.840 So that's great.

01:58:14.060 Thank you.

01:58:14.580 That's excellent.

01:58:15.200 Thank you.

01:58:15.840 Um, when I, that just tastes like beer.

01:58:18.820 Well, it is beer.

01:58:19.780 Yeah.

01:58:20.000 It's actual, no, I mean, it's, it's actual beer just without the alcohol, you know?

01:58:24.700 So what you realize when you have it is that, and I drank beer, you know, in the morning

01:58:29.480 for years and really enjoyed it, but it was the alcohol that I was looking for, but it

01:58:36.380 was also the alcohol that made it not that great.

01:58:38.840 Right.

01:58:39.380 Right.

01:58:39.620 Right.

01:58:39.720 So when you take the alcohol out, the hops really come to the fore.

01:58:43.620 Sure.

01:58:44.440 And hops are just an amazing plant, kind of a stringent.

01:58:47.460 I think they're a relative of cannabis actually, which I don't smoke, but still, aren't they?

01:58:51.780 Hops related to?

01:58:52.800 I think so.

01:58:53.820 Marahuna.

01:58:54.360 Yeah.

01:58:55.120 Well, whatever it is, they have this really flowery, interesting taste that's a little

01:58:59.080 bit biting that offsets the inherent sweetness of the malt, but they're kind of like overwhelmed

01:59:04.980 by the ethanol in a normal beer, but they come out in this.

01:59:08.920 Do you feel that?

01:59:09.600 I do.

01:59:10.300 I do.

01:59:10.960 And it's, you know, it's a, it's a craft lager.

01:59:16.560 Yeah.

01:59:17.060 And what I, the, the, the model that I was urging to, you know, not to get deep into the

01:59:23.240 science of it, but.

01:59:24.220 Please do.

01:59:24.700 Well, I don't have the, I don't know the science.

01:59:28.340 Just make it up.

01:59:30.420 No, I was like, you know.

01:59:31.920 You're using nuclear technology for the first time ever in the brewery process.

01:59:36.180 That's, that's what we're doing.

01:59:37.540 Yeah.

01:59:37.700 Um, no, it's just like, you know, what, what, like what our, our target is, you know, like

01:59:45.760 what, what's, what's a great beer that, that is commonly served at a ball game, you know?

01:59:52.680 And I want to, I want something that, that, that, you know, not, not, not mirrors that

01:59:58.540 obviously eclipses that is more, it feels just a little more, a little more full.

02:00:07.700 Yeah.

02:00:07.980 A little fuller, you know?

02:00:09.600 Um.

02:00:09.740 And real, not thin, watery.

02:00:11.620 Should we give it the spaniel test?

02:00:13.440 What is that?

02:00:14.460 Well, I.

02:00:15.860 Oh, the spaniel test.

02:00:18.340 I'm just going to let them, I've got my spaniels.

02:00:20.360 Come here.

02:00:20.520 And I'm going to let them, okay, so.

02:00:24.300 Oh, gosh.

02:00:24.680 Smell that.

02:00:26.820 Yeah.

02:00:28.680 Yeah.

02:00:29.240 Did, did, did, is that, is that a pass or a fail?

02:00:32.440 No, no, that's a full pass.

02:00:33.520 Now, this is a legit grouse dog.

02:00:36.940 Okay.

02:00:37.260 Okay.

02:00:37.440 We went yesterday.

02:00:39.260 Um, she's got an amazing nose and if this dog doesn't like something, it's immediately

02:00:45.040 obvious.

02:00:45.860 Oh.

02:00:46.420 No, she liked it.

02:00:47.460 Okay, good.

02:00:48.120 I'm not going to let her have any because God knows where that tongue has been.

02:00:51.460 Exactly.

02:00:51.740 But.

02:00:52.680 And also, um, you know, there's obviously a tie-in with, with wild, with wild thing.

02:00:59.220 That's why the badge is the, is the profile of, of that character, which is kind of cool.

02:01:04.500 So, but wild can also be, you know, connected to how people perceive me for so long.

02:01:12.500 Why do they perceive you that way, do you think?

02:01:16.180 I mean.

02:01:18.160 Just a little Charlie Sheen joke there for a minute.

02:01:21.420 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:01:21.820 The, the, the universe of evidence, perhaps.

02:01:25.220 Yeah.

02:01:26.040 Um.

02:01:26.440 It was fairly overwhelming.

02:01:27.540 There wasn't much debate about that.

02:01:28.880 Yeah, exactly.

02:01:30.000 Um, but yeah, it's, uh, it's, it's alcohol free.

02:01:33.540 It's as.

02:01:34.420 So when you drink this in the morning, you feel no guilt at all.

02:01:37.760 None.

02:01:38.400 None.

02:01:38.800 Because I got to be honest, I'm not, I legit enjoyed beer in the morning.

02:01:43.120 I mean, it's just a.

02:01:44.120 I did too.

02:01:44.900 Yeah.

02:01:45.080 I did too, for sure.

02:01:46.220 Yeah.

02:01:46.520 Yeah.

02:01:47.100 And, um, of course I haven't done that in a long time, but this is, this is a way to

02:01:51.860 get your breakfast beer in with no downside.

02:01:53.700 Exactly.

02:01:54.300 And I started drinking it, uh, and, and all I had to work with for the longest time was,

02:01:58.520 was the prototypes, but they would send it to me as it kept evolving.

02:02:01.460 And I was, uh, drinking it during workouts.

02:02:05.140 What, what were the other people present thinking?

02:02:08.040 I wonder there's Charlie Sheen.

02:02:09.200 He's drinking beer during a workout.

02:02:10.800 It does seem like a tiger blood thing.

02:02:12.300 I was just working out in my bedroom alone.

02:02:14.140 Yeah.

02:02:14.660 It wasn't like in a gym, but I heard somewhere years ago that the German weightlifters used

02:02:19.060 to chug beer.

02:02:19.920 Of course.

02:02:20.800 To get all the carbs and stay.

02:02:22.800 Arnold Schwarzenegger did it.

02:02:23.800 I mean.

02:02:24.020 Oh, he did.

02:02:24.500 Okay.

02:02:24.680 Yeah.

02:02:24.800 And that famous movie of him from the seventies, he's like drinking a giant stein.

02:02:28.460 In pumping iron.

02:02:29.180 Yeah.

02:02:29.580 Wow.

02:02:29.940 Oh, okay.

02:02:30.600 Okay.

02:02:31.040 Yeah.

02:02:31.340 So I just do it on a, on a rower.

02:02:34.200 Actually?

02:02:34.760 On a rower.

02:02:35.360 Yeah.

02:02:35.740 On like an earth thing?

02:02:37.560 Yeah.

02:02:37.780 You know, like when you're on a rower.

02:02:39.020 Yeah.

02:02:39.120 Yeah.

02:02:39.240 Yeah.

02:02:39.520 Yeah.

02:02:40.500 Not while I'm actually like holding the can and rowing, but I would pause and have some,

02:02:45.400 have some pops.

02:02:46.260 And then.

02:02:46.580 Would you ever shoot like bedroom video of that and put it online?

02:02:51.580 I mean, I, I, I, I didn't.

02:02:53.220 Um, I don't, I, I, I, I try to shoot a little bedroom video as possible, you know, just the

02:03:01.440 new Charlie Sheen.

02:03:02.940 You know, um, but no, I, I, I, I think people are going to really, really respond to this.

02:03:08.700 Well, I already have.

02:03:09.640 Oh, good.

02:03:10.140 So has my dog.

02:03:11.440 So anyway, Charlie Sheen, thank you for taking all this time.

02:03:14.120 This is amazing.

02:03:14.800 It's been great.

02:03:15.860 Yeah.

02:03:16.160 No, it's, it's, it's an honor to be here.

02:03:17.860 Thank you.

02:03:18.140 It's an honor to have you.

02:03:18.760 Thank you very much.

02:03:19.800 Awesome.

02:03:24.560 We want to thank you for watching us on Spotify company that we use every day.

02:03:28.540 We know the people who run it.

02:03:29.480 Good people.

02:03:30.740 While you're here, do us a favor, hit follow and tap the bell.

02:03:34.760 So you never miss an episode.

02:03:36.340 We have real conversations, news, things that actually matter.

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02:03:45.200 Thanks for watching.

The Tucker Carlson Show - September 26, 2025

Charlie Sheen’s Craziest Hollywood Stories and Why He Refuses to Believe the Official Story of 9⧸11

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