The Tucker Carlson Show - Cliffe Knechtle Answers Tough Questions About the Bible, Demons, Israel, Judas, Free Will, and Death

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00:00:38.920 Two lesbians at Texas State University a couple years ago, a few years ago, stepped out of the crowd and said,

00:00:45.800 Do you love racists? And I said, absolutely, I love racists. I hate racism.

00:00:52.160 I do not affirm racism, but I affirm the fact that those racists are human beings created the image of God.

00:00:58.320 I don't really give a rip whether you're Catholic, Greek Orthodox, or Protestant.

00:01:01.900 I care about what you think about Jesus Christ. Have you put your faith in Him?

00:01:05.380 And I got a boatload of Catholic friends who have put their faith in Christ, a boatload of Greek Orthodox friends who put their faith in Christ,

00:01:10.940 and a boatload of Protestant friends who put their faith in Christ, but simply not the issue.

00:01:14.400 There is a spiritual force of evil that is at work in the My Lai Massacre.

00:01:18.800 Acting on people from outside and influencing their behavior.

00:01:21.920 That's exactly right. And that's why Jesus cast demons out of people.

00:01:25.480 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities,

00:01:29.100 against the powers of this dark world, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

00:01:32.880 There's a spiritual battle that is raging.

00:01:35.120 You have been preaching Christianity on college campuses

00:02:00.620 and answering questions from skeptical undergrads, some of them very hostile, for 45 years.

00:02:07.960 Am I getting your bio correct?

00:02:09.220 You got it.

00:02:09.800 Okay.

00:02:10.440 So you have seen this longitudinally over almost five decades.

00:02:16.480 What are the changes that you've noticed, and what is your sense of the current state of young people?

00:02:26.960 The changes are the following.

00:02:30.040 Moral relativism, relativism in general, has a stranglehold now on people the way it never used to.

00:02:37.100 Neil deGrasse Tyson once said,

00:02:38.620 The good thing about science is, it's true, whether you believe it or not.

00:02:43.860 Well, guess what, Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's true about all truth.

00:02:47.900 It's true.

00:02:48.820 It's true.

00:02:49.780 Whether you believe it or not.

00:02:51.240 Right.

00:02:52.460 And yet, you and I live in a culture where more and more people say, essentially,

00:02:57.540 everything's relative.

00:03:00.060 It doesn't matter what you believe.

00:03:02.380 And my point is, if someone says that to you, take them seriously.

00:03:05.680 Don't believe what they just said to you.

00:03:07.160 So, unfortunately, that whole idea of relativism, the truth is totally subjective,

00:03:14.540 has a stranglehold on more and more people's lives.

00:03:17.460 So I've watched that trend continue over the past 45 years.

00:03:21.680 Secondly,

00:03:22.700 Wait, may I say something?

00:03:23.900 Yeah.

00:03:24.200 45 years ago was 1980?

00:03:29.720 Mm-hmm.

00:03:30.020 So you're coming out of the 60s and 70s.

00:03:33.320 Right.

00:03:34.440 In 1980, I sort of remember 1980.

00:03:36.780 It was a pretty flaky time, actually.

00:03:38.580 Yep.

00:03:39.260 The country changed during the 80s, but 1980 was still really the 70s.

00:03:43.000 Yep.

00:03:43.620 So you think there was less moral relativism then than there is now?

00:03:48.500 Well, that's a good question.

00:03:49.920 I'm not sure of that.

00:03:51.020 But it was not as clearly articulated.

00:03:53.020 It had not been worked through philosophically as deeply as it is today.

00:03:59.520 It was not such a warp and woof of the American mind quite as much.

00:04:05.420 Yes, it definitely was strong.

00:04:08.300 And to watch that simply grow and deepen was frustrating for me to watch.

00:04:14.800 What is moral relativism?

00:04:16.740 The idea is basically this, Tucker.

00:04:21.540 Who defines right and wrong?

00:04:23.780 I only know of four options.

00:04:25.920 Either the power elite define right and wrong,

00:04:29.900 or the majority define right and wrong,

00:04:32.960 or I define right and wrong,

00:04:37.140 or God does.

00:04:39.140 Now, if the power elite or the majority or me defines right and wrong,

00:04:43.820 it is relative.

00:04:44.560 It's just a creation of the human mind.

00:04:47.240 But if there is a God whose mind precedes the human mind,

00:04:50.820 then, of course, this mind,

00:04:53.320 this character of God, which is good,

00:04:55.380 can define right and wrong,

00:04:56.660 which turns it into an objective, moral absolute.

00:05:00.080 No God?

00:05:01.080 Morality is a crapshoot.

00:05:02.820 Morality is a taste.

00:05:04.040 What do you like?

00:05:04.840 Broccoli or spinach?

00:05:07.060 Well, this is my taste.

00:05:08.280 Well, what do you like?

00:05:09.240 Loving people or hating people?

00:05:10.720 Well, it's my taste.

00:05:11.980 No, according to Christ and according to the Bible,

00:05:14.800 morality is not just a taste.

00:05:17.440 Instead, human beings really have innate value and dignity,

00:05:20.240 and that is why to dehumanize a person and trivialize a person is really wrong.

00:05:24.180 So moral relativism is tragic.

00:05:27.920 And yet, it basically, as you have said so many times on your podcast,

00:05:31.380 basically, sin is deifying my opinion,

00:05:33.680 deifying myself, putting myself at the center of the cosmos,

00:05:36.140 which I could not agree with more.

00:05:38.240 And a follower of Christ is someone who's allowing God to be at the center of the universe.

00:05:42.700 And that's what worship is.

00:05:43.940 That's what faith is.

00:05:44.900 Worship is allowing God to drag me out of the center of the universe

00:05:49.100 and allowing God to be the center of the universe,

00:05:52.440 which means all of a sudden morality is not totally relative.

00:05:55.540 It's interesting.

00:05:56.360 I don't, and I'm not a historian.

00:05:58.860 I'm interested, but I'm not trained as one.

00:06:01.040 So I could be wrong and I'd be welcome, I'd welcome any correction.

00:06:04.180 But I don't think before the 20th century,

00:06:06.440 there was ever a society civilization at scale formed on the basis of moral relativism.

00:06:12.920 I think every society made the claim that our moral code came from God.

00:06:19.340 Yep.

00:06:20.240 Because I don't think, and I'm a Christian,

00:06:23.620 but of course I'm not referring to the Babylonians weren't Christians.

00:06:26.680 You know, most civilizations have not been Christians.

00:06:28.340 So, but there has to be at least conceptually a God behind the moral code

00:06:34.800 or else it's not really a moral code, it's just a preference.

00:06:37.960 Exactly.

00:06:38.700 And so that just, as a practical matter, doesn't work over time, does it?

00:06:42.920 No, it doesn't.

00:06:43.920 But it is a neat way to justify me doing whatever I want to do.

00:06:47.780 Sexually, morally, in the use of power, I can do whatever I want to do.

00:06:53.260 Because there are no limits.

00:06:54.360 Exactly.

00:06:55.420 And I'm the one who defines it.

00:06:56.420 And if I define good a particular way today, but I change my mind tomorrow,

00:07:01.180 there's nothing wrong with it.

00:07:02.400 Because it's all fluid, totally fluid.

00:07:04.300 It's totally arbitrary.

00:07:05.500 It's just a taste.

00:07:06.940 So today, my taste is this.

00:07:08.620 Tomorrow, my taste is different.

00:07:10.000 It's the opposite.

00:07:11.120 It's not right or wrong.

00:07:11.980 It just is.

00:07:12.780 What is, is.

00:07:13.880 So chill out, Cliff, and just realize it is.

00:07:17.220 So I think you just explained why, and many books have been written on this,

00:07:22.920 why did the 20th century give rise to totalitarianism in a way that the world really had never seen?

00:07:29.620 Now, the obvious explanation is, well, technology made it possible.

00:07:32.400 Okay?

00:07:33.340 But it has always struck me, and that's an inadequate explanation.

00:07:36.780 It may be that societies at scale, big societies, big civilizations,

00:07:42.340 with the don't acknowledge God, inevitably become totalitarian,

00:07:48.340 because there are no limits on the behavior of the leaders.

00:07:51.560 There's nothing they can't do.

00:07:52.860 Absolutely.

00:07:54.500 Mm-hmm.

00:07:54.940 That is what you're saying?

00:07:56.560 Yes.

00:07:57.260 One of my heroes is Alexander Solzhenitsyn, the great Russian novelist.

00:08:01.480 Amen.

00:08:01.620 And Alexander Solzhenitsyn, at one point in his life, thought,

00:08:06.480 you know, it's really the rich that have a problem with evil.

00:08:09.140 They're the scumballs.

00:08:11.720 But then he was put in a gulag in Siberia,

00:08:14.960 and he was living among very low-income people,

00:08:18.660 and he was aghast at the immorality, the evil of those people.

00:08:24.100 And suddenly, Solzhenitsyn woke up to the fact,

00:08:27.340 quote,

00:08:27.600 the line separating good from evil does not run between parties, classes, and countries.

00:08:32.480 Rather, the line separating good from evil runs through every human heart.

00:08:36.420 And then Solzhenitsyn understood,

00:08:38.140 I need help.

00:08:38.960 I need a savior.

00:08:40.120 And he converted to Christ.

00:08:41.760 That was sheer brilliance on his part,

00:08:43.660 and also real sensitivity, I think, to reality.

00:08:48.040 Yeah.

00:08:48.540 Well, he learned from what he saw around him.

00:08:50.900 Exactly.

00:08:51.080 Unlike so many of us, right,

00:08:53.040 who don't learn anything.

00:08:54.060 So you think that this is accelerating.

00:08:56.620 Yes.

00:08:56.980 And what are the manifestations of it?

00:08:59.700 How do you know that?

00:09:02.340 Well, obviously, when it comes to the issue of sexuality in our culture,

00:09:06.460 it is tragic.

00:09:08.040 Absolutely tragic to watch people say,

00:09:10.460 I don't know whether I'm male or female,

00:09:13.240 but wait a second.

00:09:14.700 I'm the one who defines it.

00:09:16.460 Because everything is relative.

00:09:18.640 So if I want to define myself as an individual,

00:09:21.460 or as they and them,

00:09:23.220 that's cool.

00:09:24.060 If I want to be he today,

00:09:26.200 she tomorrow,

00:09:27.700 they the day after tomorrow,

00:09:29.280 that's okay.

00:09:30.560 Because truth is something I create in my head.

00:09:32.780 It's simply my perception.

00:09:34.300 So if my perception today is,

00:09:35.940 I'm a he,

00:09:36.720 tomorrow my perception is,

00:09:37.900 I'm a she,

00:09:38.720 and the day after tomorrow,

00:09:39.660 my perception is,

00:09:40.420 I'm a they,

00:09:41.600 that's all equally valid.

00:09:43.160 Because it's all just a cosmic crapshoot.

00:09:44.940 That's all life is.

00:09:45.700 It's ultimately meaningless.

00:09:46.700 Because God didn't create me.

00:09:48.900 No intelligent mind put me here for a purpose.

00:09:51.440 Life is ultimately meaningless.

00:09:52.860 So I'll just create it according to my own desires.

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00:14:20.720 Well, you did.

00:14:22.500 So, flesh out why you think that's tragic.

00:14:25.860 I mean, it's self-evidently silly,

00:14:27.340 because you wind up making claims that are just counter to observable truth,

00:14:31.580 like, I can change my sex.

00:14:33.400 No, you can't.

00:14:34.520 It's determined at the DNA level.

00:14:35.960 So, like, no, that's untrue.

00:14:38.220 So you could laugh at that.

00:14:39.740 Why do you call it tragic?

00:14:40.760 I call it tragic because

00:14:43.880 I lose my understanding of why you're valuable.

00:14:49.500 And if you rub me the wrong way,

00:14:51.640 there is nothing that says I can't cut you off at the knees.

00:14:55.060 And the whole idea of forgiving is ridiculous.

00:14:58.380 Can you stop this?

00:14:59.220 I feel like you're at the heart of something that I don't fully understand,

00:15:02.180 but if you don't mind explaining it a little more fully,

00:15:05.200 why does that statement,

00:15:07.540 I can change my sex because I'm self-created,

00:15:10.860 I'm God of my own life,

00:15:12.660 why does that affect the way that I feel about you or you about me?

00:15:16.600 Why does that make you less valuable or me less valuable?

00:15:18.820 It doesn't, but it's based on a philosophy.

00:15:20.760 It's based on a worldview.

00:15:22.380 And that worldview says that we all are cosmic accidents,

00:15:25.640 which means we define ourselves,

00:15:27.220 we define our value,

00:15:28.160 we define our morality,

00:15:29.220 we define everything about us.

00:15:31.120 Right.

00:15:31.360 Which means I will also define how I'm going to treat you.

00:15:34.900 Exactly.

00:15:35.420 And if you rub me the wrong way,

00:15:36.920 and if you cut me off at the knees,

00:15:38.460 I'm coming after you to teach you never to do that to me again.

00:15:41.760 And revenge becomes the modus operandi.

00:15:45.120 Yes.

00:15:45.520 I have never,

00:15:46.520 ever heard of a porpoise,

00:15:48.940 forgiving a shark for eating his porpoise friend.

00:15:52.400 But we're not porpoises.

00:15:53.940 We're human beings created in the image of God,

00:15:56.140 which means we have this ability to reflect the character of God,

00:15:59.520 which is gracious and forgiving and also just and holy.

00:16:03.940 But he was also forgiving.

00:16:05.480 And he created us with this incredible ability to forgive and to be gracious

00:16:09.540 and not just to cut each other off at the knees.

00:16:12.040 So if you don't believe that other people have souls,

00:16:15.380 there's really nothing you can't do to them.

00:16:18.400 Exactly.

00:16:19.500 Why does it even matter?

00:16:20.700 Exactly.

00:16:21.980 What's the difference between me stepping on a cockroach and me stepping on you?

00:16:26.220 You're both sentient beings.

00:16:28.160 You both are alive.

00:16:29.800 So if I can step on a cockroach,

00:16:31.160 why can't I step on you?

00:16:33.280 Oh,

00:16:33.680 now you're going to give me this mythology that,

00:16:35.820 oh,

00:16:35.900 but we're human beings and we have more value than a cockroach does.

00:16:39.240 Oh,

00:16:39.480 really?

00:16:40.140 I don't think the cockroach feels that way.

00:16:42.240 Right.

00:16:43.440 To which you say,

00:16:44.160 what?

00:16:45.700 Down deep,

00:16:46.260 you know better than that.

00:16:47.860 Down deep,

00:16:48.340 you and I,

00:16:48.760 I don't care what your worldview is,

00:16:50.860 you know that there is something to human value.

00:16:53.800 Down deep within your heart,

00:16:55.600 within the depth of your being,

00:16:57.180 you know that when you hold a little baby in your hands,

00:17:00.280 you're not holding a cockroach.

00:17:02.140 No.

00:17:02.860 And this is not based on human arrogance.

00:17:04.820 Oh,

00:17:05.000 I'm just superior to a cockroach.

00:17:07.500 No,

00:17:07.800 this has to do with some innate,

00:17:09.360 intrinsic value of a human life.

00:17:11.940 But if there is no God,

00:17:14.600 this deep,

00:17:15.300 profound experience that you're having as you hold a little baby in your hands

00:17:18.280 is just raw emotionalism.

00:17:20.640 It's meaningless.

00:17:21.820 And the value,

00:17:22.700 as you just said,

00:17:23.180 is inherent.

00:17:24.060 It's not just utilitarian.

00:17:25.980 It's not that the baby may grow up and become a famous scientist who

00:17:30.400 creates a vaccine to prevent disease.

00:17:33.220 Yep.

00:17:34.020 The value is inherent in the baby because the baby exists.

00:17:38.720 The baby is valuable because the baby was created by God.

00:17:41.680 Bingo.

00:17:42.620 You take God out of the picture and you're up a creek without a paddle when it

00:17:45.100 comes to explaining to me,

00:17:46.100 why is that baby valuable?

00:17:47.760 Oh,

00:17:48.120 that baby is valuable because I have a lot of strong feelings.

00:17:50.780 Yeah,

00:17:51.000 fine.

00:17:51.340 So that's your genetic drive,

00:17:52.580 right?

00:17:53.180 As mom and dad to care for your child.

00:17:55.060 Well,

00:17:55.160 guess what?

00:17:55.440 I know a lot of deadbeat dads who could give a rip about their kids.

00:17:58.820 Yeah.

00:17:59.440 So don't give me this bit that dads have to love their kids.

00:18:02.760 And yet the majority of dads understand that child is valuable.

00:18:06.960 Okay.

00:18:07.200 So now the question is why,

00:18:09.080 why is that child valuable?

00:18:11.940 And I would argue if there is no God,

00:18:14.080 that child is a hunk of primordial slime evolved to a higher order.

00:18:17.120 So don't give me this gibberish that this child is valuable.

00:18:19.700 Instead,

00:18:20.260 be intellectually consistent and acknowledge this child is a cosmic accident the

00:18:24.200 same way I'm a cosmic accident.

00:18:26.520 That's so interesting.

00:18:27.720 So you really can't say that any child or any person is valuable except for the

00:18:33.060 products he produces or the services he provides.

00:18:35.480 Bingo.

00:18:36.820 Unless you acknowledge that he was created by God.

00:18:39.420 Correct.

00:18:40.240 Because where would the value come from?

00:18:41.440 Exactly.

00:18:42.100 And you know where the value comes from in our culture?

00:18:43.940 The size of your stock portfolio,

00:18:45.640 the size of your bank account,

00:18:47.160 the style of your car,

00:18:49.320 the house you live in,

00:18:50.140 the size,

00:18:50.660 the grandeur of it.

00:18:51.580 And that is so superficial.

00:18:53.660 I mean,

00:18:53.820 I was one speaking into women's privacy.

00:18:55.920 Can I also say it suggests that if you don't have that portfolio or that car,

00:19:01.200 that you have less value.

00:19:03.240 You are a loser.

00:19:04.240 Right.

00:19:04.600 You're a loser,

00:19:05.260 but you can also be completely mistreated or killed.

00:19:09.060 Why not?

00:19:09.800 Well,

00:19:10.040 that's happening in the United States,

00:19:11.220 by the way,

00:19:11.500 to poor people.

00:19:12.260 Exactly.

00:19:13.480 And we,

00:19:13.860 I guess when you frame it the way you did,

00:19:15.800 we shouldn't be surprised by that.

00:19:17.160 You know,

00:19:17.380 a hundred thousand people can die every year of fentanyl.

00:19:19.000 And we're like,

00:19:19.300 yeah,

00:19:19.400 but they're losers.

00:19:20.160 Like whatever,

00:19:20.660 who cares?

00:19:21.240 Yep.

00:19:22.240 And that is what we're saying.

00:19:23.640 Tragic.

00:19:24.700 Because they don't have value.

00:19:25.920 Apart from what they produce or own.

00:19:28.620 Exactly.

00:19:30.300 Damn.

00:19:30.780 I think you just,

00:19:31.520 I think you just explained what's happening.

00:19:34.980 I'm sorry.

00:19:35.760 I interrupted you,

00:19:36.680 but you're,

00:19:37.040 you're exploiting my brain a little bit.

00:19:39.620 Yeah.

00:19:39.920 I was speaking at a private women's college in Massachusetts.

00:19:43.220 And a woman came up to me with tears streaming down her cheeks.

00:19:46.640 She said,

00:19:47.220 you know,

00:19:47.400 Cliff,

00:19:47.560 you don't know what it's like to walk into a frat party.

00:19:50.380 And as you walk into the door,

00:19:51.880 you walk past a group of guys lined up and they're whispering to each other.

00:19:55.920 Two.

00:19:57.520 Four.

00:19:58.340 Yep.

00:19:59.240 Eight.

00:20:00.840 Ten.

00:20:02.000 She said,

00:20:02.520 you have no idea how dehumanizing that is,

00:20:04.540 Cliff.

00:20:05.000 And I had to look her in the face and say,

00:20:06.540 you're right,

00:20:06.840 ma'am.

00:20:06.960 I don't.

00:20:07.880 I don't know experientially how dehumanizing that is,

00:20:10.380 but I can begin to imagine.

00:20:12.240 That is such a trashy view of human life.

00:20:15.280 It's scary.

00:20:16.380 But if there is no God,

00:20:18.220 we're all hunks of primordial slime.

00:20:20.060 We're all hunks of meat on a hoof.

00:20:21.740 And if we're proportioned correctly,

00:20:23.900 we're in six,

00:20:24.640 eight,

00:20:24.900 10.

00:20:25.380 And if we're not,

00:20:26.620 we're four or two.

00:20:29.060 Tragic.

00:20:29.620 What did she say?

00:20:31.780 She began to seriously consider Christ in a way that was very exciting.

00:20:35.500 I don't know what ultimately she decided,

00:20:38.120 but she said to me,

00:20:39.560 Cliff,

00:20:39.800 basically this,

00:20:40.600 this is really beginning to make more sense than it ever has before.

00:20:45.700 I've noticed a lot that the emphasis in the United States,

00:20:50.920 and I've always been a right winger and I always made fun of people who

00:20:53.900 prayed about the poor and all that stuff.

00:20:56.880 I was wrong.

00:20:57.540 I just want to say,

00:20:58.480 but I have noticed that the concern for the poor in the United States is

00:21:02.380 basically just evaporated.

00:21:03.520 And that a hundred years ago,

00:21:05.260 the country was humming with benevolent associations with what we would call

00:21:09.300 NGOs,

00:21:10.280 basically rich ladies,

00:21:11.720 just like now,

00:21:13.520 trying to elevate the poor,

00:21:15.820 take care of orphaned children,

00:21:17.880 teach them English,

00:21:18.920 feed them.

00:21:20.500 And that no longer exists at all.

00:21:23.320 And could,

00:21:24.740 could that coincide not coincidentally with the decline in Christianity?

00:21:30.060 Yes,

00:21:32.620 it obviously,

00:21:33.380 absolutely could.

00:21:34.160 It's a searing of the human conscience.

00:21:37.080 It's interesting.

00:21:37.880 You raise that issue because this winter and spring,

00:21:39.720 like never before,

00:21:40.600 when people ask me difficult theological questions,

00:21:44.860 I try and give a short answer,

00:21:47.200 especially when they start getting into,

00:21:48.720 you know,

00:21:48.980 what about the Catholics?

00:21:50.260 What about the Greek Orthodox?

00:21:51.440 What about the Protestants?

00:21:52.560 You know,

00:21:53.060 don't they really all have problems?

00:21:55.120 My point is rather simple.

00:21:56.200 My point is I don't really give a rip whether you're Catholic,

00:21:58.900 Greek Orthodox,

00:21:59.600 or Protestant.

00:22:00.460 I care about what you think about Jesus Christ.

00:22:02.880 Have you put your faith in him?

00:22:04.340 And I got a boatload of Catholic friends who have put their faith in

00:22:06.900 Christ,

00:22:07.480 a boatload of Greek Orthodox friends who put their faith in Christ,

00:22:10.040 and a boatload of Protestant friends who put their faith in Christ.

00:22:12.520 But it's simply not the issue.

00:22:13.820 Are you Catholic,

00:22:14.480 Greek Orthodox,

00:22:14.900 or Protestant?

00:22:16.060 The issue is,

00:22:16.820 have you put your faith in Christ?

00:22:18.640 Then the issue is,

00:22:19.840 are you seeking to introduce people to Christ?

00:22:22.280 And are you seeking to solve one of the biggest killers in the world today,

00:22:26.480 which is starvation?

00:22:29.000 If you had a kid who was starving,

00:22:31.380 and I say to you,

00:22:32.360 I'm a follower of Christ.

00:22:33.920 And I look at your starving kid and say,

00:22:35.660 good luck.

00:22:36.080 And I walk away.

00:22:37.680 You have good reason to question the legitimacy of my faith.

00:22:41.560 I think you do.

00:22:42.960 Yes.

00:22:43.520 If I have the solution for your starving kid,

00:22:45.820 and it's called money in my back pocket,

00:22:47.480 in my bank account,

00:22:48.680 and I do nothing to help you with your starving kid,

00:22:52.400 oh my goodness,

00:22:53.500 what on earth is going on?

00:22:55.520 So to get all wrapped up in some of these theological debates,

00:22:58.440 I just don't want to spend too much time on,

00:23:01.160 because we got a boatload of work to do.

00:23:03.280 Introducing people to Christ,

00:23:04.540 helping them go from hell to heaven,

00:23:06.960 helping them grow as people of integrity,

00:23:09.100 people of honesty,

00:23:10.220 people of strong values,

00:23:12.100 and then people who share their financial resources

00:23:15.560 with those who are less fortunate,

00:23:17.020 and solve the world's starvation problem.

00:23:20.860 You're effectively a theologian,

00:23:22.460 so it's interesting to hear you say,

00:23:24.440 I don't want to get caught up in the theology.

00:23:28.300 Well, theology is very important when it comes to the basics.

00:23:30.840 I like what Mark Twain said.

00:23:32.340 Mark Twain said,

00:23:32.960 it's not the parts of the Bible I don't understand that disturb me,

00:23:36.060 it's the parts of the Bible that I do understand that disturb me.

00:23:38.980 Boy, is that true.

00:23:40.380 Right on, Mark.

00:23:41.380 Well, it's amazing how many Christians can get caught up in the minutiae.

00:23:45.000 Is transubstantiation correct?

00:23:46.780 Should I be a Catholic or not?

00:23:48.960 Should I pray to Mary or not?

00:23:50.980 You know, if someone comes up to me and says,

00:23:52.300 Cliff, I know you're going through a rough time,

00:23:53.540 and I'm praying to my aunt who was a saint for you.

00:23:56.040 I'm not going to try and have this hour-long discussion with them

00:23:58.400 why I don't think praying to your dead aunt is a good use of your time.

00:24:02.120 I'm going to say thank you for praying to your aunt.

00:24:04.700 I would encourage people to pray directly to God,

00:24:06.960 directly to Jesus Christ,

00:24:08.260 but how much time do I'm going to spend with another person

00:24:11.140 debating upon whether you should pray to your aunt or not?

00:24:14.640 I just, let's focus on the majors, not on the minors.

00:24:18.240 Interesting.

00:24:18.640 Yet a lot of energy is expended on the small stuff.

00:24:22.320 Why is that?

00:24:24.860 I don't know.

00:24:26.460 I've got some fears, some concerns about why that is.

00:24:30.160 There's a part of me that understands it too well,

00:24:32.580 which is I want to be right.

00:24:34.820 And if I have an opinion, I want you to agree with me.

00:24:36.860 And if you don't agree with me, I want to try and convince you to that.

00:24:40.500 And so there can be egotism in there and arrogance.

00:24:43.300 Yes.

00:24:43.880 And I've got to be very, very careful of that.

00:24:46.000 I mean, I have the greatest respect for President Lincoln.

00:24:49.580 During the Civil War, a minister came up to him and said,

00:24:51.620 Mr. Lincoln, let's pray that God is on our side in this terrible conflict.

00:24:55.480 And Lincoln shot back, oh, no, no, no, no.

00:24:57.680 Let's pray instead that we are on God's side,

00:25:00.340 for God's side is always right.

00:25:02.240 And it's far too easy for me to baptize my views with,

00:25:05.060 oh, this is God's view.

00:25:06.180 I've got to be very suspicious of that.

00:25:07.900 If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

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00:29:01.320 Have you ever in your life discovered

00:29:04.200 that what you thought was God's view

00:29:05.740 was really your view?

00:29:07.440 Oh, absolutely.

00:29:09.180 And I've watched that in other people.

00:29:12.000 You know, one of the most gut-wrenching experiences

00:29:14.720 for me during the 70s when I was at Davidson

00:29:18.100 was I lived in the home of Billy Graham's sister,

00:29:21.060 Jean, and her husband, Leighton Ford.

00:29:23.160 And I watched the Graham family struggle

00:29:25.500 through the Watergate crisis.

00:29:27.060 Wait, you lived in Billy Graham's daughter's house?

00:29:29.840 Sister's.

00:29:30.520 Sister's.

00:29:30.900 Home on the weekends.

00:29:32.100 Just on the weekends.

00:29:33.000 Leighton Ford became like a father in the Lord to me.

00:29:36.360 And his wife, Jeannie, who was Billy Graham's sister,

00:29:38.440 became like a mother in the Lord to me.

00:29:41.120 And so I had a front row seat

00:29:42.800 for watching Dr. Graham realize,

00:29:45.500 I think I went too far with Richard Nixon.

00:29:48.780 Wow.

00:29:49.360 So you were there in 73, 74?

00:29:51.420 Correct.

00:29:52.760 Mm-hmm.

00:29:53.060 What was that like?

00:29:55.600 Well, it was a rather intense educational experience,

00:29:59.280 to put it mildly,

00:30:01.000 in terms of what are you going to spend your life doing.

00:30:03.740 I had the utmost respect for Billy Graham.

00:30:06.080 That guy was incredible.

00:30:07.800 I mean, the temptations that that guy had to deal with,

00:30:10.220 I will never have to deal with.

00:30:11.400 You know, the opportunities to really mess up.

00:30:13.880 He had them all over the place.

00:30:15.360 And his integrity was incredible.

00:30:17.540 And I have the utmost respect for him.

00:30:19.000 But to watch him agonize through this issue of,

00:30:22.100 how close did I get to Richard Nixon?

00:30:25.780 How much did I endorse him?

00:30:28.460 And was that the wisest use of my time?

00:30:32.280 I respect Nixon and Graham for the way they maintained their friendship till Nixon's death.

00:30:36.840 I also respect Nixon, the way he told some of his handlers to keep Graham away from me.

00:30:41.700 I don't want to sully him any more than I have.

00:30:44.460 So I respect that.

00:30:45.880 But I also respect Graham for realizing,

00:30:48.420 God called me to preach the gospel.

00:30:50.300 I've got to be real careful how much I hop into bed with politicians.

00:30:54.700 Amen.

00:30:54.940 But, I mean, I guess the counter-argument would,

00:30:59.900 let me just say I agree with you completely,

00:31:01.860 but I also see the compelling argument on the other side.

00:31:05.560 Yes.

00:31:05.880 Which is that I have influence.

00:31:07.420 Yep.

00:31:07.980 I think I'm influencing people on behalf of what is true and good.

00:31:12.000 Correct.

00:31:13.180 And I have this chance to influence the president of the United States.

00:31:16.080 Like, why wouldn't I take that?

00:31:17.360 Exactly.

00:31:18.440 What do you think of that argument?

00:31:19.800 I think that argument's absolutely correct.

00:31:21.420 But then the question becomes,

00:31:23.540 how strongly do you endorse the individual?

00:31:26.520 Right.

00:31:27.160 Because the individual is a sinner the same way I am,

00:31:29.620 the same way we all are,

00:31:30.800 and the individual is going to make mistakes, going to sin.

00:31:35.600 How closely do I want to wed that individual with Christ

00:31:39.260 when it comes to communicating Christ to people?

00:31:43.840 And that's a real challenge that I face.

00:31:46.620 One of my best lines is,

00:31:48.240 I am a dirty, rotten sinner.

00:31:49.400 And what I'm seeking to smash is the stereotype

00:31:53.000 that a Christian is someone who claims to be morally superior to everybody else.

00:31:57.580 That's a lie.

00:31:59.180 I'm a follower of Christ because I need God's forgiveness.

00:32:02.300 Because I've messed up.

00:32:04.340 And if I ever forget that,

00:32:05.940 and if I think that my faith in Christ has produced

00:32:08.880 a morally superior person named Cliff Koneckle,

00:32:12.520 I have parted company with reality.

00:32:14.740 Amazing grace, how sweet the sound,

00:32:18.180 that saved a wretch like me.

00:32:20.060 I once was lost, but now I'm found.

00:32:22.200 Was blind, but now I see.

00:32:24.380 Yeah, that's where it's at.

00:32:26.420 A story, Tucker, that I use a lot is

00:32:28.720 Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

00:32:32.480 After apartheid was being taken apart in South Africa.

00:32:37.900 Officer Vanderwood was at one end of the court,

00:32:42.360 and a black South African woman was at the end of the court.

00:32:45.420 And the Truth and Reconciliation Commission

00:32:47.480 looked into the face of the black South African

00:32:49.140 and said,

00:32:49.940 Ma'am, this officer

00:32:50.920 went to your township,

00:32:54.500 arrested your husband,

00:32:55.720 brought him outside the township,

00:32:57.920 partied,

00:32:58.360 and roasted him over a fire

00:33:00.380 till he was burned to death.

00:33:03.360 One year later,

00:33:04.240 they did the same thing to your son.

00:33:06.340 Came to your home,

00:33:07.600 arrested your son,

00:33:08.840 took him out to a party

00:33:09.760 outside the town,

00:33:10.960 and burned him to death.

00:33:12.620 Now, what do you want us to do

00:33:13.920 with this white police officer?

00:33:16.680 And this black South African woman

00:33:18.700 said, I got three requests.

00:33:20.560 First request is,

00:33:22.500 I want this white police officer

00:33:24.420 to take me to the place

00:33:25.500 where he burned my husband

00:33:26.660 and my son to death

00:33:27.980 so that I can gather up their ashes

00:33:29.820 and give them a proper burial.

00:33:32.500 Second request is,

00:33:34.040 I want this white police officer

00:33:35.540 to come to my township

00:33:36.820 once a month

00:33:38.440 and allow me to mother him

00:33:40.340 because I got a lot of mothering left in me

00:33:42.580 and he's taking my family away from me.

00:33:44.860 And the third thing is,

00:33:46.280 I want you to allow me

00:33:47.580 to walk across this courtroom now

00:33:49.360 and give him a hug

00:33:50.820 to try and convince him

00:33:52.740 that my forgiveness of him

00:33:53.840 is genuine and real.

00:33:54.920 And the Truth and Reconciliation Commission

00:33:57.840 said, yes, go ahead.

00:33:59.380 This black South African woman

00:34:00.620 stands up

00:34:01.240 and as she's walking across

00:34:02.800 the courtroom to this man

00:34:04.800 who was responsible

00:34:06.460 for the murder

00:34:07.140 of her husband and son,

00:34:09.680 a person starts singing

00:34:11.080 Amazing Grace,

00:34:12.640 how sweet to sound,

00:34:14.200 that saved a wretch like me.

00:34:16.160 I once was lost,

00:34:17.640 but now am found,

00:34:18.940 was blind,

00:34:19.560 but now I see.

00:34:20.980 That's the gospel

00:34:21.900 of Jesus Christ.

00:34:22.860 That's pretty far

00:34:26.160 from what

00:34:26.820 anyone naturally

00:34:29.180 wants or believes.

00:34:30.820 Mm-hmm.

00:34:32.880 So,

00:34:34.140 I mean,

00:34:35.760 how do you make the case

00:34:37.000 that acting against

00:34:38.600 your own impulses,

00:34:40.720 against your own instincts

00:34:42.320 is good?

00:34:43.620 Like, why?

00:34:44.600 That's pretty radical.

00:34:45.620 That's more radical,

00:34:46.480 I think,

00:34:46.720 than we appreciate normally.

00:34:48.000 Absolutely correct.

00:34:49.120 It's totally radical.

00:34:50.860 And so is me getting on a diet.

00:34:53.060 When the doctor says to me,

00:34:54.560 you're getting close

00:34:55.260 to being diabetic, Cliff.

00:34:57.340 Yeah,

00:34:57.760 I got to cut ice cream out.

00:34:59.040 I don't want to do that.

00:35:00.360 But if I want to play

00:35:01.180 with my grandchildren,

00:35:02.680 10 years from now,

00:35:04.520 I better do that.

00:35:05.840 Yeah.

00:35:06.340 So I'm free.

00:35:07.120 I'm free to eat ice cream

00:35:07.960 every night,

00:35:08.440 a whole bowl full of it,

00:35:09.440 or a pint of it,

00:35:10.140 whatever.

00:35:11.240 Or I'm free to diet.

00:35:12.840 I'm free to do that

00:35:14.140 in order to play

00:35:14.660 with my grandchildren

00:35:15.360 10 years from now.

00:35:17.320 Yeah,

00:35:17.960 if I want to get

00:35:18.480 a good education,

00:35:19.300 I've got to discipline myself.

00:35:21.040 And if I want to play

00:35:21.760 basketball at Davidson College,

00:35:23.100 I'm really going to have

00:35:23.680 to discipline myself

00:35:24.500 because I don't have

00:35:25.060 the innate talent

00:35:25.660 to do that.

00:35:27.060 So yeah,

00:35:27.580 if I want to achieve

00:35:28.260 excellence in life,

00:35:29.100 I'm going to have

00:35:29.440 to discipline myself

00:35:30.380 and put myself

00:35:31.400 through some things

00:35:32.020 that I don't naturally

00:35:32.880 want to do.

00:35:34.440 And that's what we call

00:35:35.580 living a wise life

00:35:37.840 of excellence,

00:35:39.280 of using the gifts

00:35:40.580 that God has given me

00:35:41.560 to make a difference

00:35:42.400 in this world for good,

00:35:44.100 of using this incredible body

00:35:46.060 that God has blessed me with

00:35:47.220 to serve God

00:35:49.100 by serving people

00:35:49.920 more effectively,

00:35:50.820 to develop this amazing mind,

00:35:53.460 the most powerful muscle

00:35:54.540 in our body

00:35:55.100 that God has given me,

00:35:56.600 by developing that mind

00:35:57.740 so I can think more clearly

00:35:59.080 and help more people.

00:36:00.440 Yeah,

00:36:00.780 I don't necessarily

00:36:01.480 want to do that,

00:36:02.440 but it's what's best.

00:36:04.060 It's what's wisest.

00:36:05.200 So therefore,

00:36:05.680 I want to do it.

00:36:06.980 What kind of pushback

00:36:07.880 do you get from students

00:36:08.840 when you say things like that?

00:36:12.280 Two lesbians

00:36:13.160 at Texas State University

00:36:15.840 a couple of years ago,

00:36:16.760 a few years ago,

00:36:18.340 stepped out of the crowd

00:36:19.220 and said,

00:36:19.840 do you love racists?

00:36:23.040 And I said,

00:36:23.740 absolutely,

00:36:24.340 I love racists.

00:36:25.980 I hate racism,

00:36:27.540 but I love racists.

00:36:29.280 They're human beings

00:36:29.920 creating the image of God.

00:36:31.020 And these two lesbians erupted.

00:36:32.880 You're an idiot.

00:36:33.800 There's no way

00:36:34.440 that you should be loving a racist.

00:36:36.800 And I said,

00:36:37.380 ladies,

00:36:37.820 you're really getting mixed up here.

00:36:39.420 There are some

00:36:41.420 very sinful parts of me.

00:36:43.200 I do not affirm those parts.

00:36:44.860 I hate those parts,

00:36:45.840 but I affirm my value

00:36:47.200 as a human being

00:36:48.000 created in the image of God.

00:36:49.600 I do not affirm racism,

00:36:51.700 but I affirm the fact

00:36:52.880 that those racists

00:36:53.880 are human beings

00:36:54.740 created in the image of God.

00:36:56.100 And I've got some

00:36:56.920 former murderers

00:36:57.760 coming to the church

00:36:58.480 where I pastor.

00:36:59.820 I abhor their murdering

00:37:01.260 a human being,

00:37:02.160 but I still respect them

00:37:03.860 as human beings

00:37:04.680 created in the image of God.

00:37:06.200 And when I worked

00:37:06.860 in Lawrence County

00:37:07.820 House of Correction

00:37:08.420 in Lawrence, Massachusetts

00:37:10.120 while I was in seminary,

00:37:11.540 the first visit

00:37:12.680 I would make

00:37:13.160 every Monday night

00:37:13.800 was into the cell

00:37:14.760 of a guy

00:37:15.140 in protective custody

00:37:16.180 who was there

00:37:17.140 for kidnapping little boys,

00:37:18.920 sexually abusing them

00:37:20.060 and murdering them

00:37:20.740 and burying them.

00:37:22.060 And after spending

00:37:22.940 an hour with him,

00:37:24.120 talking with him,

00:37:24.820 reading the Bible,

00:37:25.520 praying with him,

00:37:26.000 I would go to the gymnasium

00:37:27.040 to play basketball.

00:37:28.460 And the other inmates

00:37:29.400 would come up to me

00:37:30.000 and say,

00:37:30.260 hey man,

00:37:30.500 don't you know

00:37:30.820 what a piece of dirt he is?

00:37:32.380 How dare you spend

00:37:33.480 any time in his cell

00:37:34.600 talking with him?

00:37:35.300 And I said,

00:37:36.580 sirs,

00:37:37.120 I abhor what he did

00:37:38.800 to those boys,

00:37:39.780 but I can promise you,

00:37:41.300 in spite of how he has

00:37:42.380 messed up

00:37:43.060 and defaced

00:37:43.880 the image of God in him,

00:37:45.300 he is still a human being

00:37:46.700 created in the image of God.

00:37:48.200 And I will seek

00:37:49.040 to reach out to him

00:37:50.020 to offer God's grace

00:37:51.880 and forgiveness

00:37:52.520 to one confused,

00:37:54.160 messed up man.

00:37:55.460 How'd they respond?

00:37:57.600 They got quizzical looks

00:37:59.000 on their faces.

00:38:00.600 Some of them laughed,

00:38:01.460 and I understand that

00:38:04.460 because that is foreign

00:38:06.200 and it is absurd

00:38:07.880 and as you pointed out,

00:38:08.880 it's really radical

00:38:09.600 the way Jesus taught that.

00:38:12.240 But that's part of why

00:38:13.360 we have so many lonely people

00:38:14.580 in our society today

00:38:15.680 because we live

00:38:16.160 in a cancel culture,

00:38:17.380 which means you rub me

00:38:18.340 the wrong way

00:38:18.860 and I cancel you.

00:38:20.180 Well, guess what?

00:38:20.880 Everybody's going to rub me

00:38:21.640 the wrong way at some point.

00:38:23.280 Yeah.

00:38:23.920 And if I'm just going to go

00:38:24.640 around canceling people,

00:38:25.560 I'm going to be

00:38:25.880 a very lonely,

00:38:26.840 isolated person.

00:38:28.200 If I don't learn to forgive,

00:38:29.460 I will be alone.

00:38:33.420 Intimacy is based on

00:38:34.980 the ability to forgive

00:38:36.060 and to accept people

00:38:37.220 who are different

00:38:38.160 and who've hurt you.

00:38:39.620 Yes.

00:38:41.200 That is such a wise point.

00:38:44.360 You know,

00:38:44.800 if you think you're

00:38:45.480 the only virtuous person

00:38:46.620 in the world.

00:38:48.360 No kidding.

00:38:48.880 First, you're an idiot,

00:38:49.560 but second,

00:38:50.240 you will have no one at dinner.

00:38:51.840 Yeah.

00:38:52.660 That's exactly right.

00:38:53.740 Yeah.

00:38:54.160 No, I think that's really wise,

00:38:55.820 but a child molester?

00:38:57.060 Really?

00:38:57.340 Shouldn't there be limits

00:38:58.200 to humanity?

00:38:59.360 Like, at some point,

00:39:00.240 do you lose your humanity?

00:39:01.620 I guess what you're saying is no.

00:39:03.760 You deface it.

00:39:04.820 Yes.

00:39:05.260 And obviously,

00:39:05.740 some of us have defaced it

00:39:07.040 in very, very unusual,

00:39:09.060 grotesque ways,

00:39:09.900 but we all have defaced it

00:39:11.340 to some extent.

00:39:12.060 I have.

00:39:12.680 No, I've never committed

00:39:13.540 the sins that that man committed

00:39:15.120 that I would visit

00:39:16.660 every Monday night,

00:39:17.480 but I've lusted.

00:39:18.960 I've been greedy.

00:39:20.040 I've hated.

00:39:21.200 I've had subtle racist attitudes.

00:39:22.900 I've been sexist,

00:39:23.700 chauvinistic

00:39:24.240 in my own unique way,

00:39:26.280 sophisticated way.

00:39:27.140 So I'm not this wonderful person

00:39:28.760 that I wish that everyone

00:39:29.580 believed that I am.

00:39:30.900 No, Solzhenitsyn was correct.

00:39:32.620 The line separating good from evil

00:39:34.120 runs through every human heart,

00:39:36.120 including this guy's heart.

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00:41:07.620 What did the lesbians

00:41:08.620 at Texas State say

00:41:09.660 when you told them

00:41:10.800 that you love racists?

00:41:12.380 They were outraged.

00:41:13.320 They said,

00:41:13.660 that's impossible.

00:41:15.120 And I said,

00:41:15.560 ladies,

00:41:15.800 from your perspective,

00:41:16.760 I understand why.

00:41:18.020 If there is no God,

00:41:19.160 forgiveness is stupid.

00:41:20.380 You don't forgive people.

00:41:21.720 You teach them

00:41:22.280 not to do that to you again.

00:41:24.040 But if there is a God

00:41:24.940 who's forgiven you,

00:41:26.200 then you'd be very wise

00:41:27.240 to be God-like

00:41:28.580 in the way you forgive others.

00:41:31.660 That's not the message

00:41:32.620 of the Old Testament,

00:41:33.520 which I read last year

00:41:34.520 and was pretty shocked by,

00:41:36.520 as I think many people

00:41:37.260 who read it are,

00:41:38.500 shocked by the violence in it

00:41:40.540 and shocked by the revenge in it,

00:41:43.320 the genocide in it.

00:41:45.880 What do you make of that?

00:41:48.140 I understand why you say

00:41:49.540 what you just said.

00:41:51.200 But to be honest with you,

00:41:52.260 Tucker,

00:41:52.500 I disagree.

00:41:54.540 I think what you see

00:41:55.660 in the Old Testament

00:41:56.380 is the judgment of God.

00:41:58.480 It's not genocide.

00:42:00.600 Instead,

00:42:01.400 God chose to use the Jews

00:42:03.080 to judge

00:42:03.760 the Amalekites,

00:42:05.200 the Canaanites,

00:42:05.940 the Hittites,

00:42:06.600 the Stalactites,

00:42:07.440 all the other tights.

00:42:08.840 But remember,

00:42:10.140 a few hundred years later,

00:42:11.400 he used first the Assyrians

00:42:13.440 and then the Babylonians

00:42:14.820 to judge the Jews.

00:42:16.540 Why?

00:42:18.360 To commit genocide?

00:42:19.760 No, no, no, no.

00:42:20.660 To judge them

00:42:21.740 for sacrificing their babies

00:42:23.700 on altars,

00:42:24.600 which is the same thing

00:42:25.680 the Hittites

00:42:26.200 and the Canaanites

00:42:26.880 and the Philistines

00:42:27.520 were doing.

00:42:28.500 And God says,

00:42:29.440 you pervert the worship

00:42:30.380 of me in that way

00:42:31.440 to the point of sacrificing

00:42:32.860 your child on an altar to me,

00:42:34.600 you will be judged for it.

00:42:36.920 And he judged first

00:42:37.880 those Hittites

00:42:40.140 and Amorites

00:42:41.560 and Agites

00:42:42.720 and then he judged the Jews

00:42:44.620 for that kind of evil.

00:42:46.800 You see,

00:42:47.060 I think the real question,

00:42:48.500 Tucker,

00:42:48.780 is do we give God

00:42:50.600 the right to judge?

00:42:52.480 Now,

00:42:52.680 here's what's fascinating

00:42:53.500 about this issue for me.

00:42:55.180 When I step onto

00:42:56.200 a state university campus,

00:42:58.420 I know that the majority

00:42:59.760 of professors

00:43:00.440 are going to basically say,

00:43:03.540 Cliff,

00:43:03.860 if you abuse

00:43:04.660 a young African-American kid

00:43:06.400 and the police

00:43:08.060 come up to you

00:43:08.820 and they say,

00:43:10.140 what are you doing, Cliff?

00:43:11.260 And I say,

00:43:11.680 well,

00:43:11.780 this kid deserved it.

00:43:12.440 I just beat him to a pulp.

00:43:15.420 If the police officer

00:43:16.580 looks at me and says,

00:43:17.580 let's go to Starbucks together,

00:43:19.660 you all would be outraged.

00:43:21.240 What incredible racism.

00:43:23.140 What amazing injustice.

00:43:25.120 Good.

00:43:27.600 Don't make the same mistake

00:43:29.400 with God.

00:43:30.760 If you define God

00:43:31.820 as being love,

00:43:33.040 lovey-dovey,

00:43:34.180 and expect him

00:43:35.000 not to judge me

00:43:36.260 for whooping up

00:43:37.120 on the African-American kid,

00:43:38.660 if you expect God

00:43:40.000 not to judge me

00:43:40.780 for my evil,

00:43:42.480 then let's be real honest.

00:43:44.680 That kid doesn't matter

00:43:46.120 to God.

00:43:47.300 The same way

00:43:48.000 if the police say to me,

00:43:49.340 let's go to Starbucks.

00:43:51.000 After I whoop up

00:43:52.080 on an African-American kid,

00:43:53.420 they're saying something

00:43:54.240 very clearly.

00:43:55.100 Cliff,

00:43:55.300 that little African-American kid

00:43:56.500 does not matter.

00:43:58.240 If God doesn't judge,

00:44:00.360 he does not love.

00:44:01.640 If God doesn't judge,

00:44:02.900 it means people

00:44:04.020 do not matter to God.

00:44:06.500 And the opposite is true.

00:44:08.000 People matter to God,

00:44:09.260 and therefore,

00:44:09.840 when we mess with each other's

00:44:10.940 heads and bodies,

00:44:12.040 he judges us.

00:44:14.620 I don't, however,

00:44:15.960 see the message

00:44:17.460 of forgiveness

00:44:18.220 between people

00:44:19.040 in the Old Testament

00:44:19.880 in the way that I see it

00:44:21.900 in the New Testament.

00:44:22.540 It does seem like

00:44:22.900 there was a change.

00:44:24.500 I mean,

00:44:24.680 no one in the Old Testament

00:44:25.500 that I read

00:44:26.160 was saying,

00:44:26.800 turn the other cheek.

00:44:28.440 Okay.

00:44:29.060 That you can't be forgiven

00:44:30.020 until you forgive,

00:44:31.040 which are like central messages,

00:44:32.520 obviously,

00:44:32.860 of Jesus.

00:44:33.720 So,

00:44:34.720 does it,

00:44:36.180 I mean,

00:44:36.480 that seems like a change to me.

00:44:37.960 Okay.

00:44:38.720 I would agree with you

00:44:39.680 that indeed it's not articulated

00:44:41.220 quite as clearly

00:44:42.120 as it is in the New Testament.

00:44:44.140 But gosh,

00:44:44.680 you've got to read

00:44:45.060 the book of Hosea.

00:44:46.820 Hosea is married

00:44:47.560 to a woman named Gomer.

00:44:48.660 Oh, yes.

00:44:49.300 They have a little baby,

00:44:50.740 and Hosea is holding

00:44:51.580 that little baby in his hands,

00:44:52.740 and all of a sudden

00:44:53.300 he realizes,

00:44:54.240 I ain't the daddy.

00:44:55.400 Yeah.

00:44:56.140 Number two child,

00:44:57.460 same thing.

00:44:58.640 Number three child,

00:44:59.760 same thing.

00:45:00.740 Hosea is holding

00:45:01.300 that little kid in his hands,

00:45:02.440 and all of a sudden

00:45:03.100 he realizes,

00:45:03.860 I ain't the daddy.

00:45:04.880 It gets to the point

00:45:05.520 where Hosea has to go down

00:45:06.460 to the slave market

00:45:07.280 to barter against other men

00:45:08.980 to buy back his wife.

00:45:10.920 And God is banging

00:45:12.000 on Hosea's door saying,

00:45:14.200 Hosea,

00:45:14.580 do you know the pain

00:45:15.240 that you experience

00:45:16.080 over your wife's

00:45:16.800 sexual unfaithfulness?

00:45:18.160 Well,

00:45:18.400 that is the same pain

00:45:19.280 that I experience

00:45:20.080 over human beings

00:45:21.300 who've been unfaithful to me,

00:45:22.980 who I created to love me

00:45:24.500 and live in relationship with me,

00:45:25.760 and they turn their backs on me.

00:45:27.260 I am a suffering God.

00:45:28.900 I hurt over that,

00:45:30.480 but I am a gracious God

00:45:31.620 who offers forgiveness.

00:45:33.580 God's patience

00:45:34.480 with a stubborn Israelite people

00:45:36.800 is incredible.

00:45:38.820 They deserved his wrath

00:45:40.160 long before they got it

00:45:41.580 at the hands of the Assyrians

00:45:42.640 and Babylonians.

00:45:44.540 So you think

00:45:45.560 that they were required

00:45:46.840 to forgive

00:45:47.560 in the same way

00:45:48.420 that Jesus required

00:45:49.420 his disciples

00:45:50.080 and followers to forgive?

00:45:51.120 But it was not

00:45:53.340 articulated as clearly.

00:45:55.120 You're absolutely correct.

00:45:56.520 It was not articulated

00:45:57.700 as clearly,

00:45:58.900 but the seeds of it

00:45:59.960 are all there.

00:46:01.800 I mean,

00:46:02.060 God,

00:46:02.400 when he

00:46:02.780 confronts Adam and Eve

00:46:05.080 in Genesis chapter 3

00:46:06.640 after their rebellion,

00:46:08.280 God bless you.

00:46:09.800 Oh,

00:46:10.220 thank you.

00:46:10.820 You are just the man

00:46:11.900 to send a blessing of God

00:46:13.480 to a sneezing

00:46:14.540 podcast host.

00:46:16.660 Thank you.

00:46:17.020 So God is very gracious

00:46:20.180 to Adam and Eve.

00:46:21.620 God is very gracious

00:46:22.700 to Cain

00:46:23.460 after he kills

00:46:24.280 his brother Abel.

00:46:25.640 He doesn't wipe them out.

00:46:27.200 He puts a mark on him

00:46:28.100 and says,

00:46:28.460 no, Cain,

00:46:28.900 you keep going

00:46:29.900 through this thing

00:46:30.680 called life.

00:46:32.380 God is incredibly

00:46:33.520 gracious to Abraham

00:46:34.720 who says to Pharaoh,

00:46:36.800 this woman,

00:46:37.520 Sarah,

00:46:38.180 she ain't my wife,

00:46:39.640 she's my sister,

00:46:40.420 so of course you can

00:46:41.140 take her to be part

00:46:41.900 of your harem.

00:46:42.700 He said that twice.

00:46:43.920 Exactly.

00:46:44.320 Two different cases.

00:46:45.440 I was shocked by that

00:46:47.140 and not impressed.

00:46:47.860 I just got to be honest.

00:46:48.800 Like everyone loves Abraham,

00:46:49.760 but what?

00:46:50.500 What?

00:46:51.620 I know.

00:46:52.460 It's amazing.

00:46:53.460 I know.

00:46:54.040 They never taught that

00:46:54.900 in my church.

00:46:56.180 God is clearly

00:46:57.120 gracious and forgiving.

00:46:59.240 He created people

00:47:00.680 and wants them to thrive.

00:47:02.300 I got that message

00:47:03.280 all throughout

00:47:03.880 the Old Testament.

00:47:05.460 What I didn't get

00:47:06.480 was the command

00:47:07.520 that people should be

00:47:08.300 gracious to each other.

00:47:09.560 Didn't get that.

00:47:10.820 Whereas that is

00:47:12.000 kind of at the heart

00:47:12.960 of the New Testament.

00:47:13.980 Yes.

00:47:14.340 I don't see that

00:47:15.680 in the Old,

00:47:16.240 but I'm no scholar.

00:47:17.440 I just read it once.

00:47:18.620 No,

00:47:18.840 but you're right.

00:47:20.340 There is a lot more

00:47:21.500 barbarism

00:47:22.320 in the Old Testament

00:47:23.920 and I think a lot of that

00:47:25.540 has to do with culture.

00:47:27.180 I mean,

00:47:27.360 let's be honest,

00:47:28.160 Tucker.

00:47:28.440 I don't think

00:47:29.000 that you and I

00:47:29.580 are talking to each other

00:47:31.020 the way we are

00:47:31.680 by accident.

00:47:32.720 I think there are

00:47:33.120 a lot of reasons

00:47:33.780 and I think

00:47:34.880 one of the reasons

00:47:35.480 is that you grew up

00:47:36.340 where you did

00:47:36.880 and I grew up

00:47:37.520 where I did

00:47:38.020 and you and I

00:47:39.340 were privileged

00:47:39.860 to have a lot

00:47:40.640 of wonderful people

00:47:42.040 pour some very good

00:47:43.220 teaching into our lives.

00:47:44.680 We grew up

00:47:45.460 where respecting each other

00:47:46.820 was valued

00:47:47.560 and I think

00:47:49.380 you and I

00:47:49.660 are the beneficiaries

00:47:50.240 of that.

00:47:51.500 For sure.

00:47:52.040 I know I am.

00:47:52.780 I certainly am myself.

00:47:54.720 But when you go

00:47:55.700 into a different culture

00:47:56.960 where there are

00:47:58.160 not those kind of practices

00:47:59.560 and good habits,

00:48:00.980 I think that there's

00:48:01.680 a lot of problems

00:48:02.620 that start rising

00:48:03.560 rather quickly.

00:48:04.280 that is why

00:48:05.880 I'm a lot more patient

00:48:06.940 with people

00:48:07.560 who grew up

00:48:08.660 where dad

00:48:09.540 was just a monger,

00:48:11.940 just roasted his kids,

00:48:14.260 was so cruel.

00:48:15.820 I'm a lot more patient

00:48:16.700 in understanding

00:48:17.380 those people

00:48:17.960 than those people

00:48:19.080 who grew up in homes

00:48:19.760 where they had a mom

00:48:20.360 and a dad

00:48:20.680 who really loved them

00:48:21.320 and cared for them.

00:48:22.120 Yes.

00:48:26.000 So you think

00:48:26.600 the culture changed?

00:48:28.460 The culture

00:48:28.920 that you read about

00:48:29.800 in the Bible?

00:48:30.440 Yes.

00:48:31.200 Correct.

00:48:31.680 Big culture changes.

00:48:33.120 Big culture changes.

00:48:34.280 So,

00:48:35.520 the questions

00:48:37.400 that you get

00:48:38.160 from students

00:48:38.880 in 2025,

00:48:40.900 how are they different

00:48:41.660 from the ones

00:48:42.140 you got from students

00:48:42.820 in 1980?

00:48:44.940 There's an amazing similarity.

00:48:47.380 The biggest difference

00:48:48.360 is the emotional change.

00:48:51.040 My dad grew up

00:48:52.120 in Switzerland.

00:48:53.020 When my dad was 18,

00:48:54.240 he had a gun

00:48:54.760 sitting up in the Alps

00:48:55.700 as he watched

00:48:56.220 Hitler's panzer divisions

00:48:57.540 approach Switzerland.

00:48:59.180 My grandpa

00:49:00.040 was on the front lines

00:49:01.060 with his gun.

00:49:02.420 They didn't know

00:49:03.060 whether those

00:49:03.560 panzer divisions

00:49:04.340 were to crash

00:49:05.060 into Switzerland

00:49:05.580 or not.

00:49:08.180 The gossip is

00:49:09.260 that Mussolini

00:49:09.820 called Hitler

00:49:10.400 and said,

00:49:10.880 my money's in Switzerland,

00:49:11.940 let's not go into there.

00:49:13.940 For whatever reason,

00:49:15.360 those panzer divisions

00:49:16.180 stopped and did not

00:49:17.160 go into Switzerland.

00:49:18.620 But that's what

00:49:19.580 my dad had to deal with.

00:49:20.640 Can I also say

00:49:21.240 that the Swiss

00:49:21.780 shot down

00:49:22.380 American airplanes,

00:49:23.280 a bunch of them?

00:49:24.180 They shot down,

00:49:25.020 absolutely they did.

00:49:26.280 They killed a lot

00:49:27.120 of allied airmen.

00:49:28.880 Wow.

00:49:29.520 You couldn't fly

00:49:30.160 over Switzerland

00:49:30.640 and the Swiss

00:49:31.140 were pretty determined

00:49:32.580 to enforce that rule.

00:49:34.000 Wow.

00:49:34.460 Being like

00:49:34.860 ornery mountain people,

00:49:35.960 which they definitely are.

00:49:36.980 And yeah, yeah.

00:49:37.700 No, they don't want

00:49:38.240 anyone in Switzerland,

00:49:39.140 period.

00:49:39.780 Right.

00:49:41.000 Sorry, it's my favorite fact

00:49:42.480 and I don't want it

00:49:43.440 to be lost in history.

00:49:44.300 I love it.

00:49:44.520 Yeah, I do too.

00:49:45.420 I mean, I'm not

00:49:46.040 for killing American

00:49:46.840 airmen, of course,

00:49:47.840 but I am for

00:49:49.080 sort of independence.

00:49:50.480 Yeah, yeah.

00:49:51.300 That's excellent.

00:49:52.000 Sorry, sorry to interrupt.

00:49:53.300 Okay, so that's what

00:49:54.340 my dad went through

00:49:55.020 as an 18-year-old.

00:49:56.360 I was speaking

00:49:57.520 on campuses

00:49:58.180 when President Trump

00:49:59.420 won the first time.

00:50:00.460 Yes.

00:50:00.900 And I watched

00:50:01.600 18-year-olds,

00:50:02.340 19-year-olds,

00:50:03.140 and 20-year-olds

00:50:03.900 go for grief counseling

00:50:05.980 because Donald Trump won.

00:50:09.720 That's amazing.

00:50:11.280 You talk about

00:50:11.900 emotionally fragile.

00:50:13.320 Yes.

00:50:14.060 The difference

00:50:14.960 between a guy

00:50:15.640 sitting up in the Alps

00:50:16.640 watching Hitler's

00:50:17.580 Panzer divisions come

00:50:18.660 and having to have

00:50:19.740 the emotional courage

00:50:20.760 and the emotional strength

00:50:21.660 to handle that

00:50:22.380 versus I got to go

00:50:23.640 to a crying room

00:50:24.440 because Donald Trump

00:50:25.440 just won the election.

00:50:26.680 I mean, that's pathetic.

00:50:28.060 That is tragic.

00:50:29.620 Yes.

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00:52:12.500 So you notice that

00:52:13.520 in the questions

00:52:14.020 that you get,

00:52:14.800 people feel more on edge?

00:52:16.600 Yes.

00:52:17.660 There's an emotional sensitivity

00:52:19.000 that I think at times

00:52:20.320 is sad.

00:52:22.920 Where do you think

00:52:23.540 that comes from?

00:52:24.940 Well, I think it comes

00:52:25.600 from a lot of things.

00:52:26.320 I think it comes from

00:52:27.180 the breakdown of the home.

00:52:29.100 If you don't understand love

00:52:31.040 and experience love

00:52:32.000 at an early age,

00:52:32.800 and if you don't begin

00:52:33.420 to understand that

00:52:34.380 at the heart of the cosmos

00:52:35.300 there's a God

00:52:35.840 who really loves you,

00:52:37.220 if you don't really

00:52:37.720 begin to understand

00:52:38.420 that Jesus loves me,

00:52:39.300 this I know

00:52:39.720 for the Bible tells me so,

00:52:41.180 and if you think

00:52:41.680 your value really

00:52:42.420 depends on you

00:52:43.980 winning a ball game,

00:52:45.360 you winning a deal,

00:52:46.620 you having a bigger

00:52:47.280 bank account

00:52:48.000 than your competitor,

00:52:49.560 I mean,

00:52:49.800 good gracious,

00:52:50.620 how insecure.

00:52:52.640 And so there's

00:52:53.060 tremendous insecurity

00:52:54.080 that comes from

00:52:54.820 thinking that my value

00:52:55.980 depends upon

00:52:56.580 whether my body's

00:52:57.260 a 2, 4, 6, 8, or 10.

00:52:59.680 I mean,

00:52:59.920 you think about that.

00:53:01.560 You think about

00:53:02.520 my value depends upon

00:53:04.180 whether I can put

00:53:04.860 a better selfie up,

00:53:06.080 whether I can post

00:53:06.660 a better selfie

00:53:07.400 to appear to be

00:53:09.020 more together than you are.

00:53:11.040 I mean,

00:53:11.240 you talk about

00:53:11.760 emotional fragility.

00:53:13.700 You talk about

00:53:14.120 identity crisis.

00:53:15.640 I mean,

00:53:15.920 it's scary.

00:53:17.080 So the breakdown

00:53:17.860 of the family,

00:53:18.580 the whole emphasis

00:53:19.240 of materialism,

00:53:20.260 which is,

00:53:20.900 yeah,

00:53:21.060 it's all about

00:53:21.580 how you look

00:53:22.200 and how much you own.

00:53:23.760 Yeah,

00:53:23.980 you build your life

00:53:24.740 on that and

00:53:25.200 come on.

00:53:27.380 Things are going

00:53:27.960 to crumble

00:53:28.340 fairly quickly

00:53:29.520 unless you're

00:53:30.540 very successful

00:53:31.220 and then you get

00:53:32.200 to be where

00:53:32.640 Tom Brady is

00:53:33.720 and you ask,

00:53:35.260 okay,

00:53:35.460 six Super Bowl rings,

00:53:36.460 now what do I do?

00:53:37.660 Right.

00:53:38.260 What's it all about,

00:53:39.120 Alfie?

00:53:39.720 Exactly.

00:53:41.580 Yeah,

00:53:42.060 winning is often

00:53:42.960 the worst thing

00:53:43.660 for a man,

00:53:45.040 I've noticed.

00:53:46.280 Yeah.

00:53:47.240 Because it shows

00:53:48.680 in stark relief

00:53:50.160 the limits

00:53:51.200 of this world.

00:53:52.540 Doesn't it?

00:53:53.080 Yeah,

00:53:53.380 well,

00:53:53.640 sure.

00:53:53.980 I mean,

00:53:54.140 you got everything

00:53:54.540 you wanted

00:53:54.960 and you're still

00:53:55.360 not fulfilled,

00:53:56.100 so what else is there?

00:53:57.460 Exactly.

00:53:58.180 No,

00:53:58.360 I've seen that a lot.

00:53:59.140 I've experienced

00:54:00.120 it to some extent.

00:54:00.960 Same here.

00:54:01.320 Yeah.

00:54:03.460 So,

00:54:04.060 when you say

00:54:04.880 they're more fragile

00:54:05.880 when they ask you

00:54:06.460 questions,

00:54:07.040 what do you mean?

00:54:08.260 How do you know

00:54:08.760 they're more fragile?

00:54:09.620 How do they behave?

00:54:11.900 I have to be more

00:54:12.780 careful

00:54:13.280 the way I answer

00:54:14.560 their questions.

00:54:15.940 In the 80s and 90s,

00:54:17.280 I used to be able

00:54:17.860 to come back

00:54:18.360 more strongly.

00:54:20.340 Now I have to be

00:54:21.140 careful that I'm not

00:54:21.960 going to blow people

00:54:22.640 out of the water

00:54:23.600 emotionally.

00:54:25.180 Really?

00:54:25.980 Mm-hmm.

00:54:27.660 Because then I lose

00:54:28.460 their ear.

00:54:29.760 So,

00:54:30.120 like in the 80s,

00:54:30.820 you would just be

00:54:31.360 like at Wesleyan,

00:54:32.940 you'd be like,

00:54:33.160 you're going to hell,

00:54:34.020 but you can't say that now.

00:54:35.400 Well,

00:54:35.600 I wouldn't say that

00:54:36.300 even in the 80s.

00:54:37.440 Even at Wesleyan?

00:54:38.840 Well,

00:54:39.340 I never was at Wesleyan,

00:54:40.520 but I was at Wellesley.

00:54:41.860 Oh,

00:54:42.260 man,

00:54:42.480 I went to Smith,

00:54:43.460 spoke at Smith.

00:54:44.180 Oh,

00:54:44.380 my goodness.

00:54:45.180 What was that like?

00:54:45.900 Oh,

00:54:46.040 that was painful.

00:54:47.360 That was embarrassing.

00:54:48.260 Can you imagine

00:54:48.840 I,

00:54:49.340 a white male,

00:54:50.640 standing up

00:54:51.280 at Smith College

00:54:52.420 and telling women

00:54:53.760 that they needed

00:54:54.620 to accept Jesus Christ

00:54:55.980 as their Lord and Savior?

00:54:57.640 That did not go well.

00:54:59.840 You didn't win

00:55:00.480 a lot of souls that day?

00:55:01.440 No,

00:55:01.680 we did not see

00:55:02.300 many people say,

00:55:03.660 oh,

00:55:03.840 that's interesting.

00:55:04.680 I'd love to talk

00:55:05.240 more with you.

00:55:06.540 Wellesley was a little

00:55:07.260 different,

00:55:07.780 but boy,

00:55:08.500 Smith was intense.

00:55:10.000 A lot of happy people

00:55:10.840 at Smith?

00:55:11.440 Yeah.

00:55:13.560 A lot of joy there?

00:55:17.460 Sorry,

00:55:17.980 excuse me.

00:55:18.440 I'm afraid you nailed

00:55:19.040 that one.

00:55:20.440 I mean,

00:55:21.140 you know,

00:55:22.020 I think it's fair

00:55:23.200 to judge

00:55:24.180 a worldview,

00:55:25.520 a religion,

00:55:26.640 a commitment of any kind

00:55:27.720 by its fruit,

00:55:28.560 right?

00:55:29.100 Well put.

00:55:30.180 And,

00:55:31.260 I'm stealing the line,

00:55:32.140 but I think it's applicable

00:55:32.840 just to the world.

00:55:34.120 Yes.

00:55:34.440 Right?

00:55:34.640 If it's so great,

00:55:35.940 show me how great

00:55:36.960 it is

00:55:37.460 by the way

00:55:38.340 that you yourself

00:55:39.220 live.

00:55:40.080 Exactly.

00:55:40.800 And if people are,

00:55:43.580 I haven't been to Smith

00:55:44.300 in a long time,

00:55:45.060 last time I was there

00:55:45.500 I picked up a hitchhiker

00:55:46.280 outside its gates,

00:55:47.800 but it was miserable

00:55:50.000 in the 80s

00:55:50.740 when I was last there.

00:55:51.580 I'm sure it's miserable now.

00:55:53.420 And so that's like

00:55:54.340 kind of a bad advertisement

00:55:55.520 for whatever belief system

00:55:57.000 they're buying into,

00:55:58.100 isn't it?

00:55:58.800 I certainly would agree

00:55:59.940 with that.

00:56:01.200 Yeah.

00:56:01.760 That's exactly right.

00:56:03.660 So,

00:56:04.720 then this leads

00:56:05.680 to my

00:56:06.020 sort of meta question,

00:56:07.780 which is,

00:56:08.340 why does everyone

00:56:08.860 hate Christianity

00:56:09.520 so much

00:56:10.280 when

00:56:11.480 there are

00:56:12.340 certainly a lot

00:56:13.200 of lousy Christians

00:56:14.000 and hypocrites,

00:56:16.220 of course,

00:56:16.600 using the church

00:56:17.560 for their own ends

00:56:18.360 and their televangelists

00:56:19.900 and,

00:56:20.660 you know,

00:56:20.860 whatever.

00:56:21.200 I could go on

00:56:21.620 and on and on.

00:56:22.720 Kid touchers.

00:56:23.880 But generally,

00:56:24.920 rank and file Christians

00:56:25.900 are,

00:56:26.920 everyone knows this,

00:56:28.140 way happier

00:56:28.940 than everybody else.

00:56:30.340 Mm-hmm.

00:56:31.220 So,

00:56:31.700 why is everyone

00:56:32.880 mad at them?

00:56:35.240 Well,

00:56:35.680 I have a good reason

00:56:36.540 to be mad at God.

00:56:38.420 God impinges

00:56:39.340 on my freedom

00:56:40.040 to do whatever I want.

00:56:41.180 Ah,

00:56:41.580 okay.

00:56:42.920 I don't want you

00:56:43.540 telling me,

00:56:44.220 Tucker,

00:56:44.440 what I should do

00:56:45.100 and I don't want God

00:56:46.220 telling me what I should do.

00:56:47.320 I don't want anybody

00:56:47.960 telling me what to do

00:56:49.000 because I bought into

00:56:50.120 a false definition

00:56:50.980 of freedom,

00:56:51.600 which is,

00:56:52.380 freedom means

00:56:52.880 doing whatever

00:56:53.300 you want to do.

00:56:54.440 It's not true.

00:56:55.160 But no one

00:56:55.740 believes it.

00:56:57.060 There's not one person

00:56:58.040 on the planet

00:56:58.560 who believes

00:56:59.000 you should do

00:56:59.380 whatever you want to do.

00:57:00.360 Everybody has a strict

00:57:01.600 belief system.

00:57:02.500 The ladies

00:57:02.920 who confronted you

00:57:04.160 about loving racists,

00:57:05.640 like their religion

00:57:07.240 tells them

00:57:07.920 that racists are not human,

00:57:09.560 whatever a racist is,

00:57:10.500 by the way.

00:57:10.980 Mm-hmm.

00:57:11.180 But,

00:57:11.940 and you're required

00:57:13.040 to hate them.

00:57:13.720 So,

00:57:13.880 they've got their own rules too.

00:57:15.220 Well put.

00:57:15.720 Everybody has their own rules.

00:57:17.340 Yep.

00:57:18.120 Christianity is no different

00:57:19.560 from secular liberalism.

00:57:21.640 It's no different

00:57:22.320 from Buddhism

00:57:22.820 or communism

00:57:23.940 or in the sense that

00:57:25.680 it has a code,

00:57:27.220 a moral code,

00:57:28.040 and people

00:57:29.480 who step outside

00:57:30.060 it are apostates.

00:57:31.120 So,

00:57:31.360 that's just,

00:57:32.000 that's the nature

00:57:32.660 of moral codes.

00:57:33.780 Yep.

00:57:34.700 I think the difference

00:57:35.820 is the Christians

00:57:36.540 seem like pretty happy,

00:57:37.860 pretty joyful,

00:57:38.480 pretty light.

00:57:39.280 Mm-hmm.

00:57:40.460 Certainly lighter

00:57:41.200 than the ladies of Smith.

00:57:42.980 So,

00:57:43.580 so like,

00:57:44.300 why are people

00:57:45.240 mad at them for that?

00:57:46.220 I don't get it.

00:57:47.180 Yeah.

00:57:48.740 Well,

00:57:49.400 God is offensive

00:57:50.860 in that God

00:57:52.160 tells me

00:57:52.580 what is right sexually,

00:57:54.040 what is right financially,

00:57:55.620 what is right

00:57:56.140 when it comes

00:57:56.620 to use of power.

00:57:57.900 And I would

00:57:58.400 just as soon

00:57:59.240 not believe

00:57:59.740 in a being

00:58:00.240 who can see

00:58:00.740 through the keyhole

00:58:01.400 into my life.

00:58:02.340 I'd like to put

00:58:03.060 my finger over the keyhole

00:58:04.200 and say,

00:58:04.620 there is no God

00:58:05.180 who really sees me

00:58:06.020 who's going to hold

00:58:06.740 me responsible.

00:58:07.860 Come on,

00:58:08.400 the day of judgment

00:58:09.060 is intimidating.

00:58:10.580 The idea

00:58:10.880 that I'm going to stand

00:58:11.460 before God

00:58:11.960 and have to give an answer

00:58:14.180 for my life.

00:58:14.960 I mean,

00:58:15.180 gosh,

00:58:16.180 but that's where

00:58:16.780 the cross of Christ

00:58:17.520 comes in so powerfully.

00:58:18.760 He bled and died

00:58:19.500 on a cross

00:58:20.080 to forgive me,

00:58:21.520 to wash away my sin,

00:58:22.740 to give me eternal life.

00:58:24.340 And my confidence

00:58:25.340 is in him,

00:58:26.260 not in myself

00:58:27.180 and my moral

00:58:28.160 rectitude.

00:58:31.460 So,

00:58:32.060 is it the challenge

00:58:33.260 of judgment?

00:58:34.800 Is that what

00:58:35.380 makes people mad?

00:58:36.460 It's part of it.

00:58:38.040 You think there's

00:58:38.440 a supernatural element here?

00:58:40.580 Absolutely.

00:58:41.220 I do notice that

00:58:42.120 like the free-to-be-you-and-me

00:58:43.480 people,

00:58:44.600 I've always kind of

00:58:45.960 been a free-to-be-you-and-me

00:58:47.300 person,

00:58:47.940 by the way,

00:58:48.420 for the record,

00:58:49.500 don't actually want

00:58:50.460 to convert anyone

00:58:51.240 at gunpoint

00:58:51.820 to anything.

00:58:52.620 Right.

00:58:54.180 But they draw the line

00:58:55.840 at Christianity.

00:58:57.020 Like they,

00:58:58.020 you know,

00:58:58.320 you can free-to-be-whatever-you-want,

00:58:59.940 but the Jesus people

00:59:01.020 aren't allowed.

00:59:02.440 Right.

00:59:03.140 I have noticed that.

00:59:04.640 Yeah.

00:59:05.540 But what I've noticed

00:59:06.460 about you, Tucker,

00:59:07.160 is you enjoy

00:59:09.320 shooting guns.

00:59:10.440 Yeah.

00:59:10.980 You don't want

00:59:11.460 anybody telling you

00:59:12.320 I can't shoot guns.

00:59:14.580 I definitely don't want

00:59:15.680 anyone telling me

00:59:16.200 I can't shoot guns.

00:59:16.880 Right.

00:59:17.020 That is definitely true.

00:59:18.660 You got me.

00:59:19.720 But one of the things

00:59:20.380 I respect that I've heard

00:59:21.500 you say several times is,

00:59:23.380 and I am committed

00:59:24.080 to my wife.

00:59:25.220 Yeah.

00:59:25.960 And I don't have respect

00:59:27.000 for a lot of politicians

00:59:28.060 who have a real hard time

00:59:29.760 understanding what

00:59:30.420 commitment to their wife means.

00:59:31.840 Yeah.

00:59:32.920 Well,

00:59:33.880 I'm afraid those politicians

00:59:34.920 would argue,

00:59:35.560 yeah,

00:59:35.720 I'm sexually free.

00:59:37.220 And why are you so

00:59:38.160 limited to one woman,

00:59:39.800 Tucker?

00:59:41.100 And I think Jesus Christ

00:59:42.720 was spot on,

00:59:43.800 and I think you're very wise

00:59:44.860 to make the decisions

00:59:45.660 you have.

00:59:48.240 Yeah.

00:59:48.740 And to put a finer point on it,

00:59:49.700 it's not just that I

00:59:50.660 don't respect them

00:59:51.720 for cheating,

00:59:52.420 though,

00:59:52.740 yeah,

00:59:53.460 I think that's wrong,

00:59:54.260 but I don't respect them

00:59:55.940 for not paying any attention.

00:59:57.320 I think if you're,

00:59:58.600 I look at someone

00:59:59.740 who wants to make decisions

01:00:01.040 for hundreds of millions

01:00:02.600 of people whose wife

01:00:03.600 is desperately unhappy,

01:00:04.620 and I'm like,

01:00:05.120 if you can't even make her happy,

01:00:07.160 how are you presuming

01:00:08.320 to make decisions for me?

01:00:09.740 Well put.

01:00:10.880 Well,

01:00:11.240 I mean that.

01:00:11.980 And not just the wife,

01:00:13.340 the children.

01:00:14.000 If your kids don't respect you,

01:00:15.180 if your wife doesn't respect you,

01:00:16.440 why should I respect you?

01:00:17.500 Yep.

01:00:17.740 And I absolutely mean that.

01:00:19.320 Yep.

01:00:19.420 And I know,

01:00:20.680 so I mean everyone has like

01:00:22.040 whatever problems

01:00:22.960 in their marriage,

01:00:23.500 you know,

01:00:23.680 life is long

01:00:24.260 and people screw up

01:00:25.040 and all this stuff,

01:00:25.980 and I try not to be

01:00:27.240 too judgmental about it,

01:00:28.400 but long term,

01:00:30.280 if your wife

01:00:31.060 is not impressed by you,

01:00:32.560 why should I be?

01:00:34.240 Yep.

01:00:35.200 And I think that's totally fair.

01:00:37.360 I don't think that's judgy.

01:00:39.020 And by the way,

01:00:40.140 it's okay if your wife

01:00:40.900 doesn't respect you.

01:00:41.880 Just don't try to control

01:00:43.220 my country.

01:00:44.200 Yeah.

01:00:45.000 Fair?

01:00:45.640 Yep.

01:00:45.920 Like why should you have

01:00:46.600 a leadership position?

01:00:47.840 Yep.

01:00:49.420 I don't know.

01:00:50.060 I mean,

01:00:50.460 that's,

01:00:51.120 anyway,

01:00:51.540 that's my position on it.

01:00:53.160 But I,

01:00:53.640 I just think it's interesting

01:00:55.580 that Christianity

01:00:57.120 is the one thing

01:00:58.160 that,

01:00:58.720 that a certain sort of

01:01:01.040 modern mindset

01:01:02.680 won't tolerate.

01:01:03.780 Yep.

01:01:05.240 Any other religion

01:01:06.380 is fine.

01:01:07.040 Christianity,

01:01:07.860 not allowed.

01:01:08.900 Fascinating.

01:01:09.560 And that to me

01:01:10.360 is evidence that it's true.

01:01:11.880 Very good.

01:01:12.820 I like that, Tucker.

01:01:14.240 I don't know,

01:01:15.060 but I'm just guessing.

01:01:16.220 But you also alluded

01:01:17.080 to the spiritual battle

01:01:18.460 that we are in.

01:01:19.100 Yeah.

01:01:20.060 And, uh,

01:01:21.400 anybody has a problem

01:01:22.440 with the devil,

01:01:23.460 with the demonic,

01:01:24.520 I would encourage them

01:01:25.560 to read M. Scott Peck,

01:01:26.800 the great Connecticut psychiatrist's book,

01:01:28.900 People of the Lie.

01:01:29.980 Amazing book.

01:01:30.860 Isn't it?

01:01:31.760 And I think he does

01:01:32.620 an incredible job

01:01:33.600 pointing out,

01:01:34.520 if you look at the

01:01:35.220 My Lai Massacre

01:01:36.080 and you walk away saying,

01:01:38.360 oh, that was just

01:01:38.880 human beings messing up,

01:01:40.360 you're out of touch

01:01:41.080 with reality, bud.

01:01:42.240 There is a spiritual

01:01:43.340 force of evil

01:01:44.600 that is at work

01:01:45.380 in the My Lai Massacre.

01:01:46.580 Acting on people

01:01:47.640 from outside

01:01:48.420 and influencing

01:01:49.580 their behavior.

01:01:50.420 That's exactly right.

01:01:52.120 And that's why

01:01:52.600 Jesus cast demons

01:01:53.660 out of people.

01:01:55.200 It's why

01:01:55.860 Paul writes

01:01:56.720 in Ephesians chapter 6,

01:01:58.320 for our struggle

01:01:58.900 is not against

01:01:59.520 flesh and blood,

01:02:00.300 but against the rulers,

01:02:01.220 against the authorities,

01:02:01.960 against the powers

01:02:02.560 of this dark world,

01:02:03.440 against the spiritual forces

01:02:04.400 of evil

01:02:04.780 in the heavenly realms.

01:02:06.020 There's a spiritual battle

01:02:07.400 that is raging.

01:02:08.960 And whether it's Paul,

01:02:10.440 Jesus,

01:02:10.680 or M. Scott Peck,

01:02:12.460 they're all saying

01:02:13.040 the same thing.

01:02:14.200 Open your eyes

01:02:14.900 and realize

01:02:15.420 there's this personal force

01:02:17.280 of evil called Satan.

01:02:18.820 C.S. Lewis put it beautifully

01:02:19.920 when he pointed out,

01:02:21.320 there are two mistakes

01:02:21.920 you can make

01:02:22.440 when you're thinking

01:02:22.940 about the devil.

01:02:24.060 One is to make

01:02:24.620 too much of him.

01:02:25.800 Oh, the devil's

01:02:26.380 behind every tree.

01:02:27.640 The devil always does it.

01:02:28.820 Everything's a result

01:02:30.100 of the devil's doing.

01:02:31.920 That's to make

01:02:32.500 too much of him.

01:02:33.440 But the other's

01:02:34.020 to make too little of him.

01:02:35.220 Oh, you know

01:02:35.520 who the devil is?

01:02:36.200 The little dude

01:02:36.680 in the red jumpsuit

01:02:37.580 with the little black

01:02:38.100 pitchfork and black ears.

01:02:39.240 Ah, ha, ha, ha, ha.

01:02:41.480 What a ridiculous stereotype.

01:02:43.420 No, the devil

01:02:43.980 is a very suave,

01:02:45.320 very debonair,

01:02:46.520 personal force of evil

01:02:48.020 who reeks of evil

01:02:50.740 and destructiveness

01:02:52.140 that's scary.

01:02:54.560 It's a,

01:02:55.520 I think everything

01:02:56.320 you said is true

01:02:57.340 and I think

01:02:58.200 every honest person

01:02:59.180 can feel it

01:02:59.920 no matter what

01:03:00.580 your religious faith.

01:03:01.280 We are being acted on

01:03:02.520 from the outside

01:03:03.960 by unseen forces

01:03:05.020 all the time.

01:03:06.720 And it's our job

01:03:07.940 to resist or obey

01:03:09.120 depending on the force

01:03:10.040 of course.

01:03:11.140 But the message

01:03:12.620 in some ways

01:03:13.120 is exculpatory though.

01:03:14.540 I think,

01:03:15.460 I mean,

01:03:15.740 it's not a,

01:03:16.200 it's not an entirely

01:03:18.480 judgmental message.

01:03:19.380 It's like,

01:03:19.900 actually,

01:03:20.840 you are a,

01:03:22.320 you're being acted on

01:03:23.620 by outside.

01:03:25.220 Pawn is probably

01:03:25.860 too strong

01:03:26.400 but you're still,

01:03:28.240 I mean,

01:03:28.760 Judas betrays Jesus

01:03:29.980 and then dies.

01:03:31.080 Yep.

01:03:31.580 On the other hand,

01:03:32.600 it says really clearly

01:03:33.560 Satan enters him.

01:03:35.080 Yep.

01:03:36.140 So he's like a bad guy

01:03:37.020 stealing money

01:03:37.540 from the other 11

01:03:38.440 and all that

01:03:39.160 for sure.

01:03:39.920 I'm not defending Judas

01:03:40.740 of course

01:03:41.140 but he is also

01:03:43.160 in some sense

01:03:43.960 like he,

01:03:45.940 he exists

01:03:47.440 to fulfill a prophecy.

01:03:48.440 He is kind of

01:03:49.320 in some ways

01:03:49.900 like not fully

01:03:52.640 a player.

01:03:54.160 He's,

01:03:54.620 I don't want to say

01:03:55.520 victim but

01:03:56.140 do you see what I'm saying?

01:03:57.260 Mm-hmm.

01:04:00.620 That's an issue

01:04:01.680 that a lot of people raise.

01:04:03.880 How can there be free will

01:04:05.380 and God be sovereign

01:04:06.420 and all-powerful?

01:04:07.920 What's going on here?

01:04:09.040 Who's pulling the levers?

01:04:11.140 Often a passage

01:04:12.020 out of Exodus

01:04:12.760 that's brought up is

01:04:13.740 the Lord hardened

01:04:15.080 Pharaoh's heart.

01:04:16.540 So did Pharaoh

01:04:17.380 really have a choice

01:04:18.500 in the matter?

01:04:20.020 Six times

01:04:20.800 before we read

01:04:21.520 in Exodus

01:04:21.960 the Lord hardened

01:04:22.960 Pharaoh's heart

01:04:24.000 we read

01:04:24.500 Pharaoh hardened

01:04:25.580 his heart.

01:04:26.460 Yes.

01:04:26.800 No, that's right.

01:04:28.180 So I think

01:04:29.120 we've got to be careful

01:04:29.760 with this one.

01:04:31.140 Yes, God is all-powerful

01:04:32.440 but I agree with C.S. Lewis

01:04:33.600 that God chose

01:04:34.540 to partially limit

01:04:35.880 his power

01:04:36.540 by giving us

01:04:37.540 a free will.

01:04:38.940 If I haul back

01:04:39.860 slap you in the face

01:04:40.900 and then say

01:04:41.320 oh Tucker

01:04:41.940 God made me do it

01:04:42.980 you know I'm a con artist

01:04:44.320 I'm a hypocrite

01:04:45.040 I'm a liar.

01:04:46.240 God gave me a hand

01:04:47.440 he gave me the hand

01:04:48.920 to respect you

01:04:49.720 to love you

01:04:50.460 but because he gave me

01:04:52.320 a free will

01:04:52.940 I can roll this hand

01:04:54.220 into a fist

01:04:54.840 and send it

01:04:55.740 crashing into your

01:04:56.760 handsome face

01:04:57.540 and if I blame God

01:04:58.900 I'm a con artist

01:04:59.600 I'm a liar.

01:05:00.180 So I would argue

01:05:02.380 that yes

01:05:02.940 God is all-powerful

01:05:04.100 but God has chosen

01:05:05.160 to partially limit

01:05:06.380 his power

01:05:06.980 by giving us

01:05:07.660 free will.

01:05:08.660 Why didn't God

01:05:09.460 have Hitler's mother

01:05:10.220 have a miscarriage?

01:05:11.980 I don't know.

01:05:14.320 Seems to me

01:05:15.000 it would have saved

01:05:15.400 a lot of lives.

01:05:18.360 But God has chosen

01:05:19.680 to limit his power

01:05:21.020 by giving us

01:05:21.640 a free will.

01:05:23.120 Now the day

01:05:23.880 of judgment

01:05:24.360 is coming

01:05:24.920 when God

01:05:25.660 will hold me

01:05:26.120 responsible

01:05:26.800 for the way

01:05:27.460 I exercised

01:05:28.280 my free will.

01:05:28.980 So I'm not just

01:05:30.440 free to go out

01:05:31.340 and do whatever

01:05:31.840 and never be held

01:05:32.460 responsible.

01:05:33.300 I am responsible

01:05:34.220 for what I do

01:05:34.940 and God will

01:05:36.100 guarantee

01:05:37.360 that justice

01:05:38.600 ultimately triumphs

01:05:39.960 for there will be

01:05:40.560 a day of judgment.

01:05:45.180 The lesson

01:05:45.820 that I take

01:05:46.300 from the

01:05:46.560 Melee Mask

01:05:47.080 you're talking

01:05:47.380 about the Scott Peck

01:05:47.960 book.

01:05:48.460 Did you know him

01:05:48.960 by the way?

01:05:49.540 No.

01:05:50.600 You live in Connecticut

01:05:51.480 so I just

01:05:52.100 Did you?

01:05:53.040 I never met

01:05:53.760 Scott Peck.

01:05:54.700 He's gone now

01:05:55.280 but amazing

01:05:56.640 amazing

01:05:57.660 Yes.

01:05:58.100 and complicated

01:05:59.540 person

01:06:00.100 but really

01:06:01.040 insightful

01:06:01.440 person.

01:06:03.460 The fact

01:06:04.120 that a Connecticut

01:06:04.720 psychiatrist

01:06:05.520 could wind up

01:06:06.900 writing a book

01:06:07.480 like that

01:06:07.880 No kidding.

01:06:08.800 Yeah.

01:06:09.540 He did not

01:06:10.260 play the type.

01:06:11.180 Right.

01:06:11.560 But the lesson

01:06:12.780 that I take

01:06:13.220 from the Melee

01:06:13.740 Massacre

01:06:14.200 is these were

01:06:14.740 like Cali

01:06:15.640 and the rest

01:06:16.060 of them

01:06:16.300 pretty ordinary

01:06:17.260 guys.

01:06:17.820 Like I don't

01:06:18.140 think they had

01:06:18.720 histories of

01:06:19.420 mass murder

01:06:19.840 before they

01:06:20.260 got to Vietnam.

01:06:21.220 Yep.

01:06:21.920 And yet they

01:06:22.420 wound up

01:06:22.740 committing just

01:06:23.320 that

01:06:23.720 and murdering

01:06:24.760 women and

01:06:25.140 children

01:06:25.380 and it was

01:06:25.900 murder.

01:06:26.220 The lesson

01:06:28.700 that I take

01:06:29.420 is that like

01:06:30.240 any of us

01:06:32.060 is capable

01:06:32.480 of that

01:06:32.720 including me.

01:06:33.760 Correct.

01:06:34.460 And so

01:06:35.060 the temptation

01:06:36.080 is to when

01:06:36.680 you see

01:06:37.040 somebody doing

01:06:37.600 something really

01:06:38.360 awful like I

01:06:39.140 would never

01:06:39.540 do that.

01:06:40.540 I try to

01:06:41.400 remind myself

01:06:42.140 I think we

01:06:42.600 all should

01:06:43.120 that like

01:06:43.520 under certain

01:06:44.000 circumstances

01:06:44.720 I'd probably

01:06:45.860 do anything.

01:06:46.800 Yep.

01:06:47.160 Same here.

01:06:48.440 And

01:06:48.720 I think

01:06:51.360 that's true.

01:06:52.080 Mm-hmm.

01:06:53.580 Yep.

01:06:53.900 So what

01:06:54.580 is that?

01:06:56.100 What does

01:06:56.680 that tell

01:06:57.060 us about

01:06:57.440 people?

01:06:58.140 Mm-hmm.

01:06:59.080 Well this

01:06:59.720 is where

01:07:00.060 a lot of

01:07:00.680 people have

01:07:01.020 trouble with

01:07:01.380 the Bible.

01:07:02.260 The whole

01:07:02.760 issue of

01:07:03.040 a sinful

01:07:03.460 nature.

01:07:04.380 Right.

01:07:05.600 Dallas

01:07:06.020 Willard used

01:07:06.520 to be head

01:07:06.920 of the

01:07:07.380 philosophy

01:07:07.680 department

01:07:08.060 at USC

01:07:08.560 out in

01:07:08.860 Los Angeles

01:07:09.360 and the

01:07:10.680 way Dallas

01:07:11.200 Willard

01:07:11.600 described

01:07:12.440 the sinful

01:07:13.680 nature was

01:07:14.260 a readiness

01:07:14.840 to sin

01:07:15.700 factor.

01:07:16.940 We were

01:07:17.440 all born

01:07:18.020 with a

01:07:18.600 readiness

01:07:18.900 to sin

01:07:19.520 factor.

01:07:20.640 When I

01:07:21.020 was six

01:07:21.360 years old

01:07:21.840 and playing

01:07:22.240 with a little

01:07:22.640 friend of

01:07:23.180 mine in

01:07:23.480 the sandbox

01:07:24.160 at one

01:07:26.000 point I

01:07:26.340 picked up

01:07:26.660 the metal

01:07:27.040 truck and

01:07:28.480 dropped it

01:07:28.920 on the

01:07:29.140 little kid's

01:07:29.660 head.

01:07:30.520 I had never

01:07:31.400 seen that

01:07:31.940 behavior modeled

01:07:32.780 before.

01:07:34.260 Did he deserve

01:07:34.740 it?

01:07:35.480 No.

01:07:36.580 Yeah.

01:07:37.080 He offended

01:07:37.480 me.

01:07:38.000 Yeah.

01:07:38.720 And I

01:07:39.400 exaggerated the

01:07:41.220 offense,

01:07:42.300 took too

01:07:42.740 great enough

01:07:43.280 offense at

01:07:45.160 it and dropped

01:07:46.260 the metal

01:07:46.600 truck on his

01:07:47.140 head.

01:07:48.120 Pretty sad.

01:07:49.040 So, yes,

01:07:51.480 we're all

01:07:51.900 born in the

01:07:52.340 image of

01:07:52.660 God.

01:07:53.080 We all

01:07:53.420 have a

01:07:53.880 conscience,

01:07:54.920 this innate

01:07:55.400 moral indicator.

01:07:57.160 But we also

01:07:57.940 have this

01:07:58.380 readiness to

01:07:58.960 sin factor.

01:08:01.020 And that

01:08:01.700 is part of

01:08:02.640 the human

01:08:02.940 dilemma.

01:08:04.200 And guess

01:08:04.500 what?

01:08:05.280 It's part of

01:08:05.720 why Blaise

01:08:07.260 Pascal believed

01:08:08.100 in Jesus.

01:08:09.480 Because Blaise

01:08:09.840 Pascal understood

01:08:10.720 the glory and

01:08:12.520 the wretchedness

01:08:13.200 of the human

01:08:13.680 being.

01:08:14.660 And it's one

01:08:15.340 of the reasons

01:08:15.720 I do.

01:08:16.120 my observation

01:08:17.620 and my

01:08:18.020 experience of

01:08:18.740 reality is

01:08:19.460 everybody does

01:08:20.600 incredible good

01:08:21.400 at times.

01:08:22.800 Yes.

01:08:23.260 And everybody

01:08:23.760 does incredible

01:08:24.480 evil at times.

01:08:25.400 That's correct.

01:08:26.560 I mean, I

01:08:26.880 referred to my

01:08:27.400 dad earlier.

01:08:28.740 Tucker, when

01:08:29.760 my dad was a

01:08:30.480 Swiss Boy

01:08:30.960 Scout, he

01:08:32.360 was walking

01:08:33.200 through the

01:08:33.540 Alps with his

01:08:34.080 Boy Scout

01:08:34.480 troop one

01:08:35.000 day, and

01:08:36.220 they bumped

01:08:36.540 into a group

01:08:37.060 of Nazi

01:08:37.520 officers.

01:08:38.800 Now, I

01:08:39.180 don't know if

01:08:39.500 this is true,

01:08:40.580 Tucker, but

01:08:41.020 supposedly one

01:08:42.380 of those Nazis

01:08:43.140 was Adolf

01:08:44.200 Hitler himself.

01:08:45.020 Hitler did

01:08:46.360 not cut my

01:08:47.020 dad off at

01:08:47.540 the knees.

01:08:48.580 Hitler was

01:08:48.940 very gracious

01:08:49.580 to my father

01:08:50.500 as a little

01:08:50.880 Swiss Boy

01:08:51.420 Scout.

01:08:52.420 And then he

01:08:52.940 went ahead and

01:08:53.440 did some of

01:08:53.820 the most

01:08:54.040 horrible atrocities

01:08:55.020 imaginable.

01:08:56.440 All of us

01:08:57.180 have incredible

01:08:57.880 potential for

01:08:58.580 good, and

01:08:59.520 all of us

01:08:59.880 have tremendous

01:09:00.600 potential for

01:09:01.200 evil.

01:09:01.480 That's so

01:09:02.620 obviously true,

01:09:03.860 and anyone

01:09:04.500 old enough to

01:09:06.880 observe the

01:09:07.520 world knows

01:09:08.060 that.

01:09:08.460 Yeah.

01:09:09.220 Observe himself

01:09:10.120 knows that.

01:09:11.320 Why did you

01:09:12.280 say that people

01:09:12.960 have problems

01:09:13.560 with that?

01:09:15.020 Do you get

01:09:17.620 resistance to

01:09:18.300 that observation?

01:09:18.660 Oh, yeah.

01:09:19.620 Because there's

01:09:21.360 a type of

01:09:21.880 evolutionary

01:09:22.440 optimism that

01:09:24.240 says we've

01:09:24.680 been evolving

01:09:25.240 for a long,

01:09:26.100 long time,

01:09:26.980 and we're

01:09:28.580 at the point

01:09:29.040 where we are

01:09:29.440 really good

01:09:30.020 people.

01:09:30.680 Really?

01:09:31.480 Oh, is

01:09:31.760 that right,

01:09:32.700 Cliff?

01:09:33.600 Okay.

01:09:34.540 And even

01:09:35.000 Rousseau,

01:09:36.080 the Frenchman,

01:09:37.540 thought we

01:09:38.120 were all born

01:09:38.680 perfect,

01:09:39.860 and it was

01:09:40.380 society that

01:09:41.060 corrupted us.

01:09:41.760 the fascinating

01:09:43.260 thing is Rousseau

01:09:44.400 had his

01:09:45.340 nanny dump

01:09:46.720 five of his

01:09:47.400 kids on the

01:09:48.840 steps of the

01:09:49.440 hospital,

01:09:50.080 disowning his

01:09:50.780 kids so they

01:09:51.380 could either be

01:09:52.200 adopted or

01:09:52.800 starved to

01:09:53.300 death.

01:09:54.420 Wow.

01:09:55.140 We're all born

01:09:55.940 perfect.

01:09:56.540 Is that right,

01:09:57.140 Jean-Jacques Rousseau?

01:09:58.240 I doubt it.

01:10:00.360 It's funny.

01:10:01.540 I mean,

01:10:01.960 things have

01:10:02.500 changed so much

01:10:03.120 that Rousseau was

01:10:03.940 taken seriously

01:10:04.580 when I was a

01:10:05.200 child.

01:10:05.700 We read Rousseau.

01:10:07.240 Yeah.

01:10:07.960 I don't think

01:10:08.520 anyone knows who

01:10:09.020 Rousseau is now

01:10:09.800 anyway because

01:10:10.340 everyone's on

01:10:11.200 TikTok,

01:10:11.680 but I think

01:10:14.280 Rousseau is

01:10:14.980 regarded as a

01:10:15.780 villain and an

01:10:16.420 idiot by most

01:10:17.260 people now.

01:10:18.000 No?

01:10:18.840 Or maybe I'm

01:10:19.280 just two in my

01:10:19.880 own world.

01:10:21.020 No,

01:10:21.400 I understand.

01:10:22.940 Can I just

01:10:23.300 pause?

01:10:23.640 I just want to

01:10:24.060 go back and

01:10:24.860 have you flesh

01:10:25.540 out a little

01:10:25.800 bit more.

01:10:26.800 What kind of

01:10:27.440 reactions do

01:10:28.260 you get from

01:10:29.300 students when

01:10:29.980 you say people

01:10:31.300 are not inherently

01:10:32.440 all good?

01:10:35.620 Tucker,

01:10:36.120 if you were

01:10:36.600 my son and

01:10:38.280 I were to try

01:10:38.740 and convince

01:10:39.200 you,

01:10:39.420 Tucker,

01:10:39.820 you really

01:10:40.140 do have

01:10:40.580 innate value.

01:10:41.660 But there

01:10:42.140 is no God

01:10:42.660 who made

01:10:43.000 you.

01:10:44.180 But you

01:10:44.460 do have

01:10:44.760 innate value.

01:10:46.020 You do

01:10:46.520 have real

01:10:46.860 value,

01:10:47.320 Tucker.

01:10:48.420 Do you

01:10:48.820 get it,

01:10:49.100 Tucker?

01:10:49.840 You're

01:10:50.180 valuable.

01:10:51.200 You're the

01:10:51.640 greatest.

01:10:52.540 You are

01:10:53.000 the greatest.

01:10:53.460 And I want

01:10:53.720 you to go

01:10:53.980 home now,

01:10:54.500 Tucker,

01:10:54.720 and I want

01:10:54.960 you to

01:10:55.120 repeat that

01:10:55.580 to yourself

01:10:55.960 a hundred

01:10:56.240 times.

01:10:56.820 I am

01:10:57.200 the greatest.

01:10:57.920 I am

01:10:58.240 the greatest.

01:10:59.000 I am

01:10:59.320 the greatest.

01:11:00.500 And you

01:11:00.980 and I

01:11:01.200 live in a

01:11:01.600 culture that

01:11:02.040 is so filled

01:11:03.040 with that

01:11:03.340 type of

01:11:03.800 thinking that

01:11:04.920 we just

01:11:05.160 have to

01:11:05.360 affirm

01:11:05.660 ourselves,

01:11:09.420 that we

01:11:09.880 really do

01:11:10.220 have

01:11:10.400 value.

01:11:11.660 And that's

01:11:12.700 a short

01:11:15.740 walk into

01:11:16.160 fantasy land.

01:11:18.180 Well,

01:11:18.700 it's also

01:11:19.140 so obviously

01:11:20.000 not true

01:11:20.760 that it

01:11:22.340 creates

01:11:22.940 a lot

01:11:24.520 of

01:11:25.140 inner tension

01:11:25.800 and anxiety

01:11:26.480 in the

01:11:26.800 person who's

01:11:27.300 hearing it.

01:11:28.000 Bingo.

01:11:28.940 Because you

01:11:29.340 know you're

01:11:29.580 not the

01:11:29.900 greatest,

01:11:30.380 actually.

01:11:31.100 And you

01:11:31.340 know who

01:11:31.860 you are

01:11:32.240 on some

01:11:32.620 level.

01:11:33.040 Yep.

01:11:33.820 Maybe not

01:11:34.260 all the

01:11:34.540 details,

01:11:35.100 but you

01:11:35.380 know you're

01:11:35.680 a mixed

01:11:35.980 bag like

01:11:36.440 everybody.

01:11:37.240 Yep.

01:11:38.280 And so

01:11:38.720 to have

01:11:39.100 to live

01:11:41.580 in a lie

01:11:42.040 like that

01:11:42.540 makes you

01:11:43.320 tense.

01:11:44.640 Doesn't it?

01:11:45.600 I think it

01:11:46.240 does.

01:11:46.820 I think it

01:11:47.300 does also.

01:11:49.640 So when

01:11:50.480 you say

01:11:51.440 that people

01:11:52.000 get their

01:11:53.760 dander up.

01:11:54.380 Oh,

01:11:54.640 absolutely.

01:11:55.660 What do

01:11:55.940 they say?

01:11:57.580 You are

01:11:58.180 so judgmental

01:11:58.980 calling me a

01:11:59.620 sinner.

01:12:00.060 Who do you

01:12:00.320 think you

01:12:00.660 are?

01:12:02.120 What do

01:12:02.620 you say?

01:12:05.040 Do you

01:12:05.620 support the

01:12:06.140 law that

01:12:06.540 says equal

01:12:07.740 housing

01:12:08.040 opportunity?

01:12:09.440 Do you

01:12:09.700 respect a

01:12:10.260 law that

01:12:10.660 says I'm

01:12:11.740 not allowed

01:12:12.200 to be

01:12:13.040 biased against

01:12:13.800 people of

01:12:14.880 different ethnic

01:12:15.460 heritages when

01:12:17.240 I rent my

01:12:17.840 apartment?

01:12:19.000 Yeah,

01:12:19.180 I think you

01:12:19.600 do,

01:12:19.860 don't you?

01:12:20.500 And so

01:12:20.800 do I.

01:12:21.740 We all

01:12:22.300 have to

01:12:22.540 make

01:12:22.720 judgments.

01:12:24.060 So please

01:12:24.680 don't tell

01:12:25.000 me you

01:12:25.160 don't make

01:12:25.440 judgments.

01:12:26.640 We all

01:12:27.180 make judgments

01:12:27.700 and we

01:12:27.980 better make

01:12:28.380 judgments between

01:12:29.180 what is good

01:12:29.660 and what is

01:12:30.000 evil.

01:12:30.480 Now,

01:12:30.720 obviously,

01:12:31.060 the difficult

01:12:31.480 ethical

01:12:31.840 question is

01:12:32.480 what is

01:12:33.160 good and

01:12:33.940 what is

01:12:34.320 evil?

01:12:35.100 Where should

01:12:35.620 we draw the

01:12:36.080 boundary lines?

01:12:37.480 But please

01:12:38.020 don't tell me

01:12:38.440 that I'm

01:12:38.680 being judgmental.

01:12:39.620 You're just

01:12:40.100 as much

01:12:40.440 judgmental as

01:12:41.500 I am.

01:12:42.140 And when

01:12:42.460 Jesus says

01:12:43.040 judge not

01:12:43.660 lest you

01:12:43.980 be judged,

01:12:44.680 he's not

01:12:45.060 saying suspend

01:12:45.900 your critical

01:12:46.400 thinking and

01:12:47.240 blindly accept

01:12:48.020 everything is

01:12:48.640 equally valid.

01:12:49.800 Baloney.

01:12:50.180 14 verses

01:12:52.220 later in

01:12:53.240 Matthew 7

01:12:53.800 15 Jesus

01:12:54.600 says be

01:12:55.360 aware of

01:12:55.740 false

01:12:55.980 prophets.

01:12:57.060 They come

01:12:57.400 to you in

01:12:57.720 sheep's

01:12:58.040 clothing but

01:12:58.820 inwardly they

01:12:59.520 are ferocious

01:13:00.020 wolves and

01:13:00.740 they will eat

01:13:01.220 your lunch

01:13:01.620 guys.

01:13:02.660 So don't

01:13:02.960 be gullible.

01:13:04.240 You've got to

01:13:04.640 be skeptical

01:13:05.220 Jesus is

01:13:05.860 teaching.

01:13:06.320 Why?

01:13:06.740 Because good

01:13:07.240 and evil are

01:13:07.760 so intertwined

01:13:08.680 in this messed

01:13:09.300 up world we

01:13:09.820 live in that

01:13:10.640 if you're not

01:13:11.120 skeptical you'll

01:13:12.260 get ripped

01:13:12.580 off.

01:13:13.200 Don't do

01:13:13.580 that.

01:13:13.840 It's not

01:13:14.080 smart.

01:13:14.360 So again

01:13:17.560 you're just

01:13:18.360 making the

01:13:18.580 point that

01:13:18.800 everybody has

01:13:19.820 a kind of

01:13:20.440 strict religion.

01:13:21.720 Yes.

01:13:22.840 But

01:13:23.200 you know

01:13:25.380 only one is

01:13:26.120 true which is

01:13:26.640 your position

01:13:27.140 and the rest

01:13:28.220 are just silly.

01:13:29.480 Well I'm not

01:13:30.200 trying to say

01:13:30.660 that only one

01:13:31.260 is true mine

01:13:31.840 because I've

01:13:32.240 made a lot

01:13:32.540 of mistakes

01:13:33.020 when it comes

01:13:33.460 to defining

01:13:33.880 right and

01:13:34.240 wrong.

01:13:34.780 What I am

01:13:35.200 saying is

01:13:35.640 because there's

01:13:36.520 a supernatural

01:13:37.340 God whose

01:13:38.640 character is

01:13:39.460 good therefore

01:13:41.240 throughout

01:13:42.020 eternity good

01:13:43.500 is real.

01:13:44.360 objectively

01:13:46.540 real.

01:13:47.500 It's not a

01:13:48.080 subjective

01:13:48.520 taste.

01:13:49.680 It's real.

01:13:51.120 And God

01:13:51.600 has hardwired

01:13:52.320 you and me

01:13:52.800 in such a

01:13:53.280 way that we

01:13:53.980 have consciences

01:13:54.760 and rational

01:13:55.440 minds and

01:13:56.440 by exercising

01:13:57.180 our consciences

01:13:58.060 and rational

01:13:58.680 minds in a

01:13:59.280 responsible way

01:14:00.100 we can really

01:14:01.100 begin to

01:14:01.580 understand what

01:14:02.300 is good and

01:14:02.760 what is evil.

01:14:04.440 I mean Tucker

01:14:04.780 to be honest

01:14:05.220 with you the

01:14:06.900 biggest ethical

01:14:07.700 dilemma that I

01:14:09.580 face in life

01:14:10.360 is in light of

01:14:11.640 the fact that we

01:14:12.220 have the solution

01:14:13.060 for starving

01:14:13.840 babies.

01:14:15.620 Why do I

01:14:16.300 keep as much

01:14:16.820 money for

01:14:17.200 myself?

01:14:18.200 Why do I

01:14:18.600 not give

01:14:19.440 more away?

01:14:21.360 So for me

01:14:22.140 to come

01:14:22.920 riding into

01:14:23.480 town on

01:14:24.000 some ethical

01:14:24.660 high horse

01:14:25.700 is a little

01:14:26.640 ridiculous

01:14:27.160 because I've

01:14:28.520 got my own

01:14:28.980 blind spots.

01:14:30.020 I have got

01:14:30.740 my own

01:14:31.140 prejudices.

01:14:32.300 But what I

01:14:33.060 seek to do

01:14:33.520 Tucker is to

01:14:34.080 point people

01:14:34.640 to Jesus

01:14:35.040 Christ.

01:14:35.860 To point

01:14:36.460 people to

01:14:36.840 have a

01:14:37.060 relationship

01:14:37.660 with him.

01:14:38.680 To pray to

01:14:39.380 him for

01:14:39.860 wisdom.

01:14:40.280 to ask

01:14:41.180 his

01:14:41.440 Holy Spirit

01:14:42.100 to sensitize

01:14:43.280 their

01:14:43.480 consciences so

01:14:44.880 they can

01:14:45.200 begin to

01:14:45.740 distinguish

01:14:46.620 between what

01:14:47.640 is good

01:14:48.060 and what

01:14:48.680 is evil.

01:14:49.120 What is

01:14:49.740 morally

01:14:50.120 responsible

01:14:50.780 and what

01:14:51.700 is morally

01:14:52.180 irresponsible.

01:14:54.440 I bet you

01:14:55.240 get a lot

01:14:55.900 of questions

01:14:56.520 about gays

01:14:58.760 and abortion.

01:14:59.840 Yes.

01:15:01.160 So let's go

01:15:02.040 in order.

01:15:03.020 What kind of

01:15:03.800 questions you

01:15:04.280 get about

01:15:04.760 gays and

01:15:06.100 how do you

01:15:06.420 respond?

01:15:06.820 My first

01:15:08.700 point is I

01:15:09.220 have to

01:15:09.440 apologize to

01:15:10.420 the gay

01:15:10.720 lesbian

01:15:11.080 population for

01:15:12.860 the way they

01:15:13.260 have been

01:15:13.560 viewed as

01:15:14.260 inferior pieces

01:15:15.240 of dirt by

01:15:15.900 certain

01:15:16.320 Christians

01:15:17.220 unquote.

01:15:18.160 That is

01:15:18.560 false.

01:15:20.300 Gay bashing

01:15:20.860 is not an

01:15:21.340 option for

01:15:22.280 a fall of

01:15:22.780 Christ because

01:15:23.380 a fall of

01:15:23.860 Christ understands

01:15:24.580 all people are

01:15:25.960 created in the

01:15:26.460 image of God.

01:15:27.340 That is the

01:15:27.880 basis for our

01:15:28.580 value and

01:15:29.080 dignity.

01:15:30.260 Second point.

01:15:31.940 The Bible

01:15:32.280 insists that all

01:15:33.180 of us were

01:15:33.520 created for a

01:15:34.100 purpose and

01:15:35.060 according to

01:15:35.540 Christ the

01:15:35.980 purpose of

01:15:36.480 life is to

01:15:36.800 love God

01:15:37.580 with your

01:15:37.860 heart soul

01:15:38.280 mind and

01:15:38.680 strength and

01:15:39.380 to love your

01:15:39.800 neighbors

01:15:40.140 yourself.

01:15:41.540 In the same

01:15:42.200 way that God

01:15:42.820 made us for

01:15:43.280 a purpose he

01:15:44.440 made our

01:15:44.800 sexuality for

01:15:45.680 a purpose and

01:15:46.720 we read about

01:15:47.200 this in

01:15:47.640 Genesis 2

01:15:48.480 24 we read

01:15:49.520 for this reason

01:15:50.580 a man shall

01:15:51.100 leave his

01:15:51.520 father and

01:15:51.980 mother be

01:15:52.820 united to

01:15:53.260 his wife and

01:15:54.260 the two shall

01:15:54.780 become one

01:15:55.360 flesh.

01:15:56.400 So it's not

01:15:57.000 the federal

01:15:57.400 government that

01:15:58.020 created marriage.

01:15:59.220 It's not

01:15:59.640 culture that

01:16:00.240 created marriage.

01:16:01.380 God did.

01:16:02.420 God created

01:16:03.120 our sexuality.

01:16:04.480 God could

01:16:04.840 have had

01:16:05.920 procreation

01:16:06.520 happen at

01:16:06.940 the end of

01:16:07.160 a Q-tip

01:16:07.660 when a man

01:16:08.400 and a woman

01:16:08.700 mixed their

01:16:09.100 earwax.

01:16:09.960 Little babies

01:16:10.420 could have

01:16:10.660 been born

01:16:10.960 from that.

01:16:11.900 He didn't.

01:16:12.940 He chose to

01:16:13.520 create as male

01:16:14.060 and female and

01:16:15.100 that is beautiful.

01:16:16.360 That is a

01:16:16.840 precious, precious

01:16:17.940 gift from him.

01:16:19.360 Now he says it's

01:16:20.300 such an important

01:16:21.000 gift that it's

01:16:22.380 to be experienced

01:16:23.220 within the context

01:16:24.240 of a lifelong

01:16:25.340 commitment.

01:16:26.860 You separate

01:16:27.680 sex from a

01:16:28.980 lifelong commitment,

01:16:30.180 you're going down

01:16:30.900 a destructive path,

01:16:32.300 Christ says.

01:16:32.900 So, third

01:16:36.040 point would

01:16:36.460 be, I have

01:16:37.660 perverted the

01:16:38.220 gift of sex

01:16:38.860 that God gave

01:16:39.560 me.

01:16:40.580 Through my

01:16:41.040 heterosexual lust,

01:16:42.280 I have perverted

01:16:43.000 that gift.

01:16:44.540 I desperately

01:16:45.500 need God's

01:16:46.240 grace.

01:16:47.080 I need his

01:16:47.640 Holy Spirit to

01:16:48.440 change me, to

01:16:49.480 live a sexually

01:16:50.120 pure life, and

01:16:50.880 that's not easy

01:16:51.520 for me.

01:16:52.220 That's hard.

01:16:54.000 When anybody

01:16:54.760 ever says to

01:16:55.400 me, Cliff, I

01:16:56.620 was born this

01:16:57.240 way, I often

01:16:58.840 look them in the

01:16:59.320 face and say,

01:16:59.880 yeah, I was

01:17:01.220 born a

01:17:01.520 heterosexual male.

01:17:02.920 Do you think

01:17:03.340 my heterosexual

01:17:04.060 sex drive motivates

01:17:05.020 me to have sex

01:17:05.760 with just one

01:17:07.220 woman?

01:17:09.340 And I'm

01:17:09.920 waiting for the

01:17:10.420 guys to laugh.

01:17:13.120 I'm guessing

01:17:13.820 not, yeah.

01:17:14.840 Eventually, they

01:17:15.500 do laugh.

01:17:16.200 Yeah.

01:17:17.120 Obviously, we

01:17:18.200 heterosexual males

01:17:19.220 do not have a

01:17:19.920 sex drive to have

01:17:20.680 sex with just

01:17:21.300 one woman.

01:17:22.920 Instead, we

01:17:23.580 have to exercise

01:17:24.220 self-control,

01:17:25.880 make a commitment

01:17:26.580 to just one

01:17:27.360 woman, and

01:17:28.180 then enjoy sex

01:17:29.060 within the context

01:17:29.880 of a lifelong

01:17:30.500 commitment.

01:17:31.000 That's

01:17:31.600 marriage.

01:17:33.620 So, I

01:17:35.460 communicate that

01:17:36.680 as clearly as I

01:17:37.520 can to people.

01:17:38.540 They don't like

01:17:39.660 what they hear,

01:17:40.680 and it's

01:17:41.740 fascinating, Tucker,

01:17:42.660 over the past

01:17:43.280 45 years to

01:17:44.860 watch the gay

01:17:45.520 lesbian groups on

01:17:46.480 university campuses

01:17:47.400 around the United

01:17:48.080 States become the

01:17:49.460 most highly

01:17:49.980 organized, the

01:17:51.640 most passionate

01:17:52.440 groups on

01:17:53.180 campus.

01:17:54.080 I think that's

01:17:55.040 changing, though,

01:17:55.860 recently, and I'm

01:17:57.100 so excited over

01:17:57.920 that, but there

01:17:59.480 has been a clear

01:18:00.180 agenda.

01:18:01.160 A very clear

01:18:01.980 agenda.

01:18:02.760 And I, I mean,

01:18:03.460 you don't have to

01:18:03.800 agree, of course,

01:18:05.360 but also the most

01:18:06.380 hateful, I would

01:18:07.260 say.

01:18:07.680 I've never dealt

01:18:08.460 with anybody like

01:18:09.280 that, ever.

01:18:11.720 Did you, so, like,

01:18:13.020 but in 1980, was

01:18:14.180 that a question that

01:18:14.820 you got?

01:18:15.700 Oh, yes,

01:18:16.380 occasionally.

01:18:17.620 And now, how

01:18:18.700 often do you get

01:18:19.400 it?

01:18:20.180 I think it's

01:18:21.020 spiked, and it's

01:18:22.300 going down.

01:18:23.080 It's not quite as

01:18:24.120 prevalent.

01:18:24.460 I don't know

01:18:26.580 exactly why, but I'm

01:18:28.440 not being asked as

01:18:29.480 often about it.

01:18:31.280 But when I am, it

01:18:32.240 can turn into a

01:18:32.840 firestorm rather

01:18:33.540 quickly.

01:18:34.880 I think, you know,

01:18:36.000 whatever you think

01:18:36.600 of it, I think

01:18:37.340 people are starting

01:18:38.100 to understand that's

01:18:38.720 not the road to

01:18:39.200 happiness, and if it

01:18:40.240 was the road to

01:18:40.640 happiness, why all

01:18:41.220 the hate?

01:18:43.160 That's a bad sign.

01:18:44.460 You know, people who

01:18:45.180 are that hateful,

01:18:46.720 whatever they're doing

01:18:48.000 isn't, isn't working

01:18:48.840 right, and that's not

01:18:49.940 my fault, actually.

01:18:52.100 Sorry.

01:18:53.140 Well put.

01:18:53.740 Well put.

01:18:54.400 What kind of

01:18:58.100 questions you get

01:18:58.580 about abortion?

01:19:00.840 You've got to be

01:19:01.500 kidding me.

01:19:02.300 You're a white male,

01:19:03.360 and you're telling me

01:19:04.100 that abortion is

01:19:04.860 wrong?

01:19:05.940 Where on earth are

01:19:06.940 you coming from?

01:19:07.760 White male?

01:19:08.300 What does white have

01:19:08.860 to do with it?

01:19:10.740 Oh, I think that

01:19:11.720 there are certain

01:19:14.000 stereotypes that

01:19:15.860 exist, and for some

01:19:17.940 reason, being a white

01:19:18.820 male is not cool.

01:19:20.880 I mean, one of the

01:19:21.700 things that spiked

01:19:22.480 our popularity on

01:19:23.920 TikTok was a

01:19:26.320 blonde-haired woman

01:19:27.640 at University of

01:19:28.320 Texas came out to

01:19:31.060 our open-air meeting

01:19:31.800 and really went

01:19:32.560 after me.

01:19:33.720 You've got to be

01:19:34.480 kidding me.

01:19:35.240 You, a white male,

01:19:36.200 are standing out here

01:19:36.900 telling us that we

01:19:37.620 need God, that we

01:19:38.560 need Christ?

01:19:39.520 Are you kidding me?

01:19:40.560 This is the most

01:19:41.100 absurd thing I've

01:19:41.860 ever seen.

01:19:43.280 And I said, no,

01:19:44.040 wait a second,

01:19:44.640 wait a second.

01:19:45.380 What does white have

01:19:46.180 to do with it?

01:19:46.760 What does me being a

01:19:48.080 male have to do

01:19:48.740 with it?

01:19:48.980 We're talking about

01:19:49.760 Jesus Christ, and I'm

01:19:51.220 not Jesus.

01:19:52.160 We're talking about an

01:19:52.920 historical figure who

01:19:54.000 lived, taught, died, and

01:19:55.080 rose from the dead.

01:19:56.120 The historical evidence

01:19:57.060 is he's reliable.

01:19:58.600 I'm not asking you to

01:19:59.520 join me.

01:20:00.480 I'm asking you to

01:20:01.300 seriously consider

01:20:02.140 Christ and to put

01:20:03.320 your faith in him,

01:20:04.440 for he is reliable in a

01:20:05.960 way that I am not.

01:20:07.100 You don't know me from

01:20:07.980 Adam.

01:20:09.080 So walk away from me,

01:20:10.380 but please read the

01:20:11.220 Gospels of Matthew,

01:20:12.180 Mark, Luke, and John

01:20:12.840 for yourself, and ask

01:20:14.200 yourself, does the

01:20:15.280 historical evidence of

01:20:16.440 the way Jesus lived,

01:20:17.420 taught, died, and

01:20:18.040 rose from the dead

01:20:18.640 point to his

01:20:19.440 credibility, his

01:20:21.320 trustworthiness, or

01:20:22.240 not?

01:20:23.500 Well, she didn't like

01:20:25.680 it, but it's, you

01:20:27.900 know, there's so many

01:20:28.600 stereotypes out there,

01:20:29.720 so much prejudice.

01:20:30.800 It's incredible.

01:20:32.180 I kind of, I mean,

01:20:33.640 by the way, if

01:20:34.560 evolution is real,

01:20:35.480 then why haven't we

01:20:36.020 evolved past that?

01:20:37.120 We seem to be

01:20:37.740 evolving toward it,

01:20:39.180 and I was taught as

01:20:44.180 a kid in the 70s that

01:20:45.640 like prejudice like

01:20:46.580 that, writing people

01:20:47.800 off immediately on the

01:20:48.960 basis of the way they

01:20:49.740 look, was like the one

01:20:51.240 thing you weren't

01:20:51.700 allowed to do, but it

01:20:53.640 has become ubiquitous.

01:20:55.420 Yep.

01:20:56.460 Yep.

01:20:57.000 So why?

01:20:59.380 Why?

01:21:00.020 I mean, in 1980, no

01:21:01.820 one could have stood up

01:21:02.960 in public and said,

01:21:04.740 shut up black man,

01:21:06.300 shut up white man,

01:21:07.320 shut up Jew, shut up

01:21:08.460 Christian.

01:21:08.840 Like, you absolutely

01:21:10.040 could not say that,

01:21:11.280 but now it's just,

01:21:12.860 it's everywhere.

01:21:13.960 Why?

01:21:16.700 Why is it culture

01:21:18.140 committed to

01:21:18.960 non-discrimination

01:21:19.840 becoming ever more

01:21:21.680 discriminatory in

01:21:22.980 ever dumber ways?

01:21:24.900 Mm-hmm.

01:21:25.360 Not discriminatory in

01:21:26.200 the sense that like,

01:21:27.040 I like fish, not

01:21:27.800 steak.

01:21:28.780 Yeah.

01:21:29.040 But discriminatory in

01:21:29.800 like, you know,

01:21:31.900 anyone, appearance

01:21:33.240 is the most important

01:21:34.520 factor.

01:21:35.340 Yeah.

01:21:36.140 It's about

01:21:37.160 somebody.

01:21:37.940 Yeah.

01:21:38.740 I just think it's

01:21:39.600 very weird.

01:21:40.640 Yeah.

01:21:42.020 Well, a great man

01:21:42.840 once said,

01:21:43.500 I'm looking forward

01:21:44.140 to the day

01:21:44.680 when my children's

01:21:47.280 value is not going

01:21:48.180 to be determined

01:21:48.620 by the color of

01:21:49.300 their skin,

01:21:49.900 but by the content

01:21:50.680 of their character.

01:21:52.040 That's like considered

01:21:53.080 incredibly racist now

01:21:54.500 to say that.

01:21:55.840 It's like,

01:21:56.940 and I do think it has

01:21:58.020 something to do with

01:21:58.820 what you so eloquently

01:21:59.880 described at the outset

01:22:00.900 of our conversation,

01:22:01.600 which is once you

01:22:02.820 stop acknowledging

01:22:04.080 the human soul,

01:22:05.060 which can only be

01:22:06.000 granted by God.

01:22:06.920 Like, if there's no

01:22:07.340 God, there's no soul.

01:22:08.400 Yeah.

01:22:08.820 You're just a hunk

01:22:10.180 of meat.

01:22:10.960 Yeah.

01:22:11.300 Once you discount

01:22:12.140 that, then the most

01:22:14.340 important thing about

01:22:15.160 you becomes the way

01:22:15.960 you look.

01:22:16.720 Yeah.

01:22:17.100 Or who your parents

01:22:17.820 were.

01:22:18.260 Exactly.

01:22:18.660 Yeah.

01:22:21.040 Wow.

01:22:21.440 Tragic.

01:22:22.000 So, um, there are

01:22:23.900 people matter about

01:22:25.080 abort?

01:22:25.440 Like, so Roe v.

01:22:26.660 Wade gets overturned.

01:22:27.760 It's a big deal.

01:22:28.600 We don't really talk

01:22:29.260 about it that much.

01:22:30.980 Anti-abortion people

01:22:31.820 lose a bunch of

01:22:32.460 elections, so it seems

01:22:33.900 like the country's

01:22:34.600 becoming more for

01:22:35.440 abortion.

01:22:36.760 But is it becoming

01:22:37.480 more for abortion?

01:22:38.220 I mean, you're kind of

01:22:38.860 out there talking to

01:22:39.820 people in a way that

01:22:40.600 most are not.

01:22:41.700 What do you think?

01:22:43.660 I think there's a

01:22:44.500 real divide.

01:22:45.380 I think there are more

01:22:45.940 people who are more

01:22:46.560 committed to pro-choice,

01:22:48.160 and there are more

01:22:48.760 people committed to,

01:22:49.780 no, pro-life.

01:22:52.480 For me, the issue

01:22:53.480 becomes, what does

01:22:55.200 God say?

01:22:56.980 The word abortion is

01:22:58.160 never used in the

01:22:58.900 Bible.

01:22:59.440 No.

01:23:00.460 But we clearly read

01:23:02.260 in the Ten Commandments,

01:23:03.040 you shall not murder.

01:23:04.200 Yep.

01:23:04.960 So the question becomes,

01:23:06.200 when does human life

01:23:07.160 begin?

01:23:10.020 In every major

01:23:10.940 university hospital in

01:23:12.020 the United States, if a

01:23:12.940 body lying on a bed in

01:23:13.960 an intensive care unit has

01:23:15.180 brain activity and

01:23:16.040 heartbeat, doctors and

01:23:17.340 nurses are legally,

01:23:18.420 ethically responsible to

01:23:19.420 do everything within

01:23:20.020 their power to sustain

01:23:21.080 that life.

01:23:21.740 And generally, they do.

01:23:23.260 Good.

01:23:24.100 So between six to eight

01:23:25.360 weeks after conception,

01:23:27.120 that, quote, little piece

01:23:28.080 of skin in a woman's womb

01:23:29.260 has both brain activity and

01:23:30.700 heartbeat.

01:23:31.560 So I would hope that the

01:23:32.600 majority of us would be

01:23:33.320 able to agree, between

01:23:34.820 six to eight weeks, that's

01:23:35.980 no longer just a piece of

01:23:37.140 skin.

01:23:37.760 That's a human life.

01:23:38.740 It's got brain activity

01:23:39.700 and heartbeat.

01:23:41.380 So let's not abort after

01:23:43.040 eight weeks.

01:23:44.220 Hopefully, we all can

01:23:44.900 agree on that.

01:23:46.480 Then the next question

01:23:47.420 is, well, what's the

01:23:48.540 difference between a one

01:23:49.480 minute old fertilized

01:23:50.420 egg and an eight week old

01:23:51.560 fertilized egg, an eight

01:23:52.540 day old fertilized egg, a

01:23:54.400 60 year old fertilized

01:23:55.520 egg?

01:23:56.760 And I would argue the only

01:23:57.940 difference is in kind.

01:24:02.720 Excuse me.

01:24:03.460 The only difference is in

01:24:04.740 degree of maturation, not

01:24:07.060 in kind.

01:24:08.780 It's the same thing, just a

01:24:09.940 different point along a

01:24:11.940 continuum.

01:24:12.580 Exactly.

01:24:13.800 So is a one-year-old

01:24:15.020 different from an 80-year-old?

01:24:16.500 Well, yeah, in lots of

01:24:17.460 ways, but fundamentally, it's

01:24:18.760 the same person, still a

01:24:21.100 person.

01:24:22.180 Exactly.

01:24:24.360 So this is not a

01:24:27.600 conversation that you even

01:24:28.500 hear anymore.

01:24:29.320 You used to hear this

01:24:30.080 conversation, debate about

01:24:31.320 when life begins.

01:24:32.400 Yep.

01:24:33.400 Do you hear that

01:24:33.900 conversation?

01:24:35.060 A little bit.

01:24:36.320 You're right.

01:24:36.740 It spiked a few years ago

01:24:38.040 and it's been going

01:24:39.180 downhill since then.

01:24:40.180 It just seems like that

01:24:43.400 debate, which is a debate

01:24:44.620 about specifics, has been

01:24:46.900 replaced with slogans

01:24:49.720 shouted back and forth,

01:24:50.860 pro-choice, pro-life, which

01:24:52.460 are phrases that I

01:24:53.500 personally hate because I

01:24:54.360 don't really know what they

01:24:55.040 mean.

01:24:57.620 Have you noticed that?

01:24:59.360 Yep.

01:25:00.080 Correct.

01:25:01.520 How big a deal is

01:25:03.580 abortion?

01:25:04.920 It's a humongous deal.

01:25:06.820 Because we're talking about

01:25:07.740 a human life.

01:25:09.780 Euthanasia, tremendous

01:25:10.780 issue.

01:25:11.420 We're talking about a

01:25:12.160 human life.

01:25:13.820 Oh, but they're senile.

01:25:15.460 They have dementia, Cliff.

01:25:16.620 They have Alzheimer's.

01:25:17.820 Yeah.

01:25:18.960 But they're still a human

01:25:19.920 being created in the image

01:25:20.820 of God.

01:25:22.580 Yeah, they're probably still

01:25:23.920 more aware of the world than

01:25:25.300 my two-year-old.

01:25:26.520 Can I kill my two-year-old?

01:25:27.960 Exactly.

01:25:28.380 What are you even talking

01:25:29.080 about?

01:25:29.620 Right.

01:25:30.300 I mean, what?

01:25:31.820 Yep.

01:25:32.100 But the sad thing is Peter

01:25:34.280 Singer, Professor Emeritus at

01:25:35.660 Princeton, used to stand very

01:25:37.840 strongly for abortion and even

01:25:40.260 killing a newly born child.

01:25:43.320 And yet I respect him because

01:25:44.440 he really had a heart for the

01:25:45.440 poor.

01:25:46.280 And he personally happened to

01:25:47.480 know that he personally gave a

01:25:48.520 lot of money away to feed

01:25:50.040 hungry people.

01:25:51.520 So he's kind of a, seems to me

01:25:54.140 to be a confused gentleman who

01:25:55.980 understands the value of human

01:25:57.300 life and that we're going to

01:25:58.200 feed starving people.

01:25:59.180 But if I want to destroy a

01:26:02.340 newborn infant, go ahead.

01:26:04.980 I mean, it's crazy.

01:26:05.880 It was always amazing to me

01:26:07.560 that you could have a tenured

01:26:08.640 professor at an Ivy League

01:26:09.800 college which gets billions in

01:26:11.580 federal funding.

01:26:12.800 Yes.

01:26:13.640 Advocate openly for murder.

01:26:14.860 Why not just cut off federal

01:26:15.840 funding?

01:26:16.840 Bingo.

01:26:17.560 If he advocated for murdering

01:26:20.660 black people or murdering

01:26:22.200 Israeli settlers, they'd be

01:26:23.600 like, no, we're not going to

01:26:24.300 have this.

01:26:24.880 No way.

01:26:25.440 No way.

01:26:26.360 Yep.

01:26:26.640 But you can advocate for

01:26:29.260 murdering kids and it's, you

01:26:31.260 keep your funding.

01:26:32.300 I don't understand that at all.

01:26:33.720 Neither do I.

01:26:35.740 Do you think, I mean, part of

01:26:39.160 the problem with abortion is so

01:26:40.360 many people have participated in

01:26:41.620 it.

01:26:41.980 Yep.

01:26:42.560 And a lot of good people, by the

01:26:43.860 way, I would say.

01:26:44.920 Absolutely.

01:26:45.480 Since I know a bunch of good

01:26:46.920 people who participated in

01:26:47.920 abortion.

01:26:48.500 We all do.

01:26:49.340 Yep.

01:26:50.040 Whether we know it or not.

01:26:51.220 Yep.

01:26:52.000 So how do you speak to those

01:26:53.440 people about it?

01:26:54.320 I mean, it's hard if you

01:26:56.500 participate in that, either had

01:26:58.380 one or paid for one or been the

01:27:00.440 father of a child who was

01:27:01.580 born.

01:27:02.640 Like, it's hard to talk to

01:27:04.720 people about it at that point.

01:27:06.220 They don't want to talk about

01:27:07.180 it.

01:27:07.400 How do you talk to people about

01:27:08.580 that?

01:27:10.640 Well, Tucker, I've got to be

01:27:12.620 brutally honest with people.

01:27:14.500 I am a dirty, rotten sinner.

01:27:16.560 Yeah.

01:27:17.700 And self-righteousness, Jesus

01:27:19.380 attacks in the Gospels like no

01:27:20.980 other sin.

01:27:21.660 Well, that's for sure.

01:27:22.900 That's the one thing he's

01:27:23.880 really mad about.

01:27:24.940 I noticed that.

01:27:26.200 Exactly.

01:27:27.080 The Pharisees.

01:27:27.660 Yeah, prostitutes are fine, but

01:27:29.060 self-righteous people, not fine.

01:27:30.640 Exactly.

01:27:31.440 Yeah.

01:27:31.780 That's exactly right.

01:27:33.040 So we have to be very careful

01:27:34.340 that we're not approaching this

01:27:35.320 issue with a self-righteous chip

01:27:36.440 on our shoulder.

01:27:37.340 That's for sure.

01:27:38.700 We all are broken people.

01:27:39.980 We all have feet of clay.

01:27:40.960 I certainly have blown it.

01:27:42.780 Secondly, I've received the

01:27:44.180 grace of God, the forgiveness of

01:27:45.640 God, and he offers that to every

01:27:47.360 single one of us, and all of us

01:27:48.580 are in desperate need of it.

01:27:50.240 I mean, gosh, one of my

01:27:51.580 favorite stories in the New

01:27:52.420 Testament is that two thieves

01:27:54.080 hung on either side of the

01:27:55.040 cross of Christ.

01:27:56.620 First thief turns to come on,

01:27:57.920 says to Jesus, come on, Jesus,

01:28:00.180 miracle boy from Nazareth, get

01:28:01.420 us off these crosses, and then

01:28:02.600 we'll believe in you.

01:28:03.980 Second criminal says, you idiot,

01:28:05.360 we bleed and die here because we

01:28:06.520 deserve it.

01:28:07.000 But this Jesus, he's the

01:28:07.980 innocent, holy, pure Son of

01:28:09.020 God.

01:28:09.620 And that second criminal looks

01:28:10.840 into Christ's face and says,

01:28:11.900 Lord Jesus, remember me when you

01:28:13.460 come into your kingdom.

01:28:14.960 Now, it's all right there on the

01:28:16.180 line.

01:28:16.360 Jesus says, get off the cross,

01:28:19.700 work in a soup kitchen, give me

01:28:21.860 12 Hail Marys, and I'll think

01:28:23.220 about it.

01:28:24.280 No.

01:28:25.020 Yeah.

01:28:25.780 That's religion.

01:28:27.240 You work your way to God.

01:28:29.000 No.

01:28:29.640 The opposite is what Jesus does.

01:28:31.620 He looks the guy in the face and

01:28:32.680 he says, I tell you the truth,

01:28:34.580 today you'll be with me in

01:28:35.520 paradise.

01:28:36.180 See you tonight.

01:28:37.400 Exactly.

01:28:37.640 C.S. Lewis was walking through

01:28:38.800 the faculty lounge and they were

01:28:39.880 having a debate.

01:28:40.860 What's the difference between

01:28:41.560 Christianity and every other world

01:28:42.920 religion?

01:28:43.660 And C.S. Lewis said, oh, that's

01:28:44.740 easy.

01:28:45.440 Grace.

01:28:46.540 Every religion says, hear the

01:28:47.980 rules.

01:28:48.680 Keep them.

01:28:49.700 And if you do a good enough job,

01:28:51.120 maybe you'll make it.

01:28:53.260 Maybe you'll work off your bad

01:28:54.700 karma well enough to attain

01:28:55.940 nirvana.

01:28:56.820 Maybe you'll be a good enough

01:28:57.920 boy to make heaven.

01:29:00.480 And Jesus says, no, you never

01:29:01.620 will be because you will have a

01:29:03.840 problem with sin.

01:29:04.720 But I bled and died on a cross

01:29:06.320 to give you grace, forgiveness

01:29:08.380 and eternal life.

01:29:09.760 Trust in me.

01:29:10.780 That's why Jesus doesn't call us

01:29:12.380 to a philosophy.

01:29:13.240 He doesn't call us to an

01:29:13.980 institution.

01:29:14.740 He calls us to himself because

01:29:16.340 it takes a personal God, a

01:29:18.340 suffering God, to pay the penalty

01:29:20.360 for our sin, to forgive us and to

01:29:22.440 reconcile us to himself.

01:29:25.120 The last person Jesus forgives

01:29:26.900 before he dies is a murderer.

01:29:28.440 Yep.

01:29:29.320 That's exactly right.

01:29:30.300 It's wild.

01:29:30.940 Isn't that wild?

01:29:31.660 It is wild.

01:29:32.520 Yep.

01:29:33.660 So if you explain that, the very

01:29:37.540 most basic precepts of your

01:29:39.040 religion to someone before you tell

01:29:41.520 that person actually abortion is

01:29:43.460 murder, do you get people who can

01:29:46.160 hear you?

01:29:46.720 Yes.

01:29:48.080 Correct.

01:29:48.600 Not everybody.

01:29:50.100 But yes, I notice that people begin

01:29:52.460 to listen a lot more attentively.

01:29:54.080 The same way if you give a good answer to a

01:29:58.160 difficult question, then suddenly if people

01:30:01.520 are thinking, they say, ooh, I dismissed

01:30:04.120 Christ because I thought he was a joke.

01:30:07.200 The evidence is he's not a joke.

01:30:08.940 I'm going to have to begin to think more

01:30:10.900 deeply and seriously.

01:30:12.220 Secondly, Jesus describes biblical faith as

01:30:18.360 heading towards the evidence.

01:30:21.040 This whole idea that faith in Christ is

01:30:23.800 anti-scientific or anti-reason is total

01:30:27.500 baloney.

01:30:28.520 In John 14, verse 11, Jesus says, believe

01:30:31.860 me when I say that I am in the Father and

01:30:33.520 the Father's in me, or believe me because

01:30:36.780 of the miracles that point to me being the

01:30:39.960 truth.

01:30:40.280 He doesn't say just believe.

01:30:43.340 He says, no, look at the miracles, buddy, and

01:30:45.860 allow the evidence to drive you to faith.

01:30:49.160 Do you think that people, you know, participate

01:30:53.500 in a murder and don't acknowledge that it's

01:30:57.940 wrong and don't ask for forgiveness for

01:30:59.640 participating in it, how do they suffer in

01:31:02.820 this life, do you think, in this life?

01:31:05.640 Well, the penalty for sin is sin.

01:31:07.900 Sin has a way of unraveling life.

01:31:10.280 We have human consciences.

01:31:11.960 We all do.

01:31:12.360 We all have a conscience.

01:31:13.680 Now, we can sear it.

01:31:14.900 We can rationalize.

01:31:16.020 We can blame others for our sins.

01:31:18.780 But we still have a conscience.

01:31:21.180 And we have to shut that thing down in order to

01:31:23.580 live with ourselves.

01:31:24.580 Or we can turn to Christ for forgiveness.

01:31:26.320 We have to shut it down in order to live with

01:31:28.380 ourselves.

01:31:29.880 Interesting.

01:31:30.720 What is it?

01:31:31.260 What is it?

01:31:31.740 Can you more fully explain that?

01:31:34.440 Yeah.

01:31:35.940 I'm not very intelligent, Tucker, until it comes

01:31:39.260 to justifying whatever I want to do.

01:31:41.740 When it comes to justifying what I want to do,

01:31:43.900 I'm a genius.

01:31:45.280 Yeah.

01:31:45.480 I went to grad school for that.

01:31:47.020 Yeah.

01:31:48.540 Actually did well.

01:31:51.020 Dean's list.

01:31:52.620 Congratulations.

01:31:53.640 Well, you know.

01:31:55.920 Oh, man.

01:31:56.860 No, that's really interesting.

01:31:58.820 So, what I think you're saying is once you

01:32:02.680 accentuate, develop, hone the pattern of

01:32:07.240 lying to yourself about your own behavior,

01:32:10.000 it becomes a habit.

01:32:13.560 Absolutely.

01:32:14.880 A finely tuned habit.

01:32:17.840 Yeah.

01:32:18.220 Well, I think we've all lived that.

01:32:19.660 I certainly have.

01:32:20.420 What about the idea that if you do something

01:32:23.300 really bad, like, you do suffer for it?

01:32:26.260 Like, bad things happen in your life.

01:32:29.320 Okay.

01:32:29.760 Now, the challenge to that is Job.

01:32:33.100 When Job suffered, his buddies came to him.

01:32:35.800 Oh, yeah.

01:32:36.320 And they were real smart.

01:32:37.460 For one week, they sat there and said,

01:32:39.640 Zippo.

01:32:41.320 They just sat with him.

01:32:43.180 Beautiful.

01:32:44.960 Compassion, comfort, integrity.

01:32:48.220 Then they opened their mouths.

01:32:49.840 Yeah.

01:32:50.160 And he went south real fast.

01:32:51.620 Yeah, they blamed him for his whole family dying.

01:32:55.040 You're a sinner, Job.

01:32:56.700 That's why you're going through this suffering.

01:32:59.240 And God was going to judge them,

01:33:01.280 and Job had to pray that the Lord would not judge them

01:33:03.980 for that screwed up advice they gave him.

01:33:07.920 Counsel.

01:33:10.500 John chapter 9.

01:33:12.360 The disciples come to Jesus and say,

01:33:14.100 Hey, Jesus, this guy born blind.

01:33:15.640 Who sinned?

01:33:16.240 This guy or his mom and dad?

01:33:18.220 Jesus said, Neither.

01:33:19.760 This happened that the power of God might be displayed in his life.

01:33:23.720 Does sin lead to death?

01:33:25.440 Absolutely.

01:33:27.280 Is there always a one-to-one correspondence between sin and suffering?

01:33:31.060 No.

01:33:32.100 One of the main points of the book of Job is,

01:33:34.320 Life is unfair.

01:33:35.620 God is fair.

01:33:36.800 Don't get the two mixed up.

01:33:38.200 The challenge when I suffer is not to clench my fist and wave it in God's face.

01:33:42.960 That's misplaced anger.

01:33:44.580 The challenge when I suffer is to understand I'm born into an unfair world.

01:33:48.760 Now, maybe I am suffering for some of my sin or from the sins of somebody else.

01:33:53.040 That's possible.

01:33:53.700 But it's also possible that because I'm born into an unfair world, the flack is hitting

01:33:59.220 the fan in my life, not because of anybody sinning or me sinning, but because of the unfairness

01:34:05.020 of this world.

01:34:06.020 Now, the unfairness of this world is a result of, you push it all the way back to Adam and

01:34:10.240 Eve rebelling against God, telling God to get lost, and creation begins to unravel.

01:34:16.000 So, yes, we're born into a world where there are horrible genetic birth defects, and life

01:34:22.620 is unraveling.

01:34:23.680 Life is unfair.

01:34:25.560 And the reason I think that's so important to remember is, if I have the false expectation

01:34:30.560 that life is supposed to be fair, I'm going to be really disappointed with God.

01:34:35.720 Life is definitely not fair.

01:34:37.460 There are many, can I hit you with some hard ones?

01:34:42.860 Go for it.

01:34:44.260 So, there are all kinds of references all over the Bible from Genesis to Revelation about

01:34:50.600 people being chosen by God.

01:34:53.760 Well, the Jews being the chosen people being the most obvious, but it continues into, you

01:34:59.380 know, the very end of the Gospels and the end of John.

01:35:01.900 Jesus is like, you all were chosen.

01:35:04.400 What does that mean exactly?

01:35:05.900 There are lots of people who weren't chosen.

01:35:08.260 Jesus' enemies died with, according to Christianity, the sin of opposition to Jesus on them.

01:35:15.620 Is there like an elect who were just like chosen to be followers of Jesus, and then the rest

01:35:23.200 who just weren't chosen and won't be?

01:35:24.860 That seems to be what they're saying in there.

01:35:29.520 Very difficult question.

01:35:31.300 And equally committed followers of Christ disagree.

01:35:36.220 Oh, in my last sermon...

01:35:38.000 Sorry, sorry to...

01:35:38.940 No, no, no, I'm not sorry.

01:35:40.520 It's a great issue.

01:35:42.080 In the last sermon I preached, I used an illustration from South Africa.

01:35:45.280 In a very, very fine South African seminary, it was taught Afrikaners are the chosen people,

01:35:54.620 which means they are superior to blacks, coloreds, and Indians.

01:36:01.080 And Brits.

01:36:02.220 And Brits.

01:36:03.320 They hate the Brits.

01:36:04.380 Incredible.

01:36:05.140 Understandably.

01:36:05.780 I would argue that is a total misunderstanding of the word chosen in the Bible.

01:36:10.860 I would argue that when the Bible talks about God choosing the Jewish people, it doesn't

01:36:14.960 mean all Jews are going to heaven.

01:36:17.100 It doesn't mean the Jews are superior to Gentiles.

01:36:19.740 It simply means that when God chose to reveal himself more clearly than simply through creation,

01:36:25.740 general revelation, he chose the Jewish prophets, and he spoke through the Hebrew prophets.

01:36:31.840 And then when he chose to reveal himself most clearly by becoming a human being, he was

01:36:36.420 born a Jew.

01:36:37.460 I worship a Jew, Jesus of Nazareth.

01:36:41.640 It does not mean that the Jews are God's pets.

01:36:45.400 No, they're valuable human beings, created the image of God.

01:36:48.980 But a Jewish thug is a thug.

01:36:52.080 The same way a Hamas thug is a thug.

01:36:54.840 The same way a Hezbollah thug is a thug.

01:36:57.340 The same way a Palestinian thug is a thug.

01:36:59.840 We're all human beings, created the image of God with a free will, and we are responsible

01:37:04.640 for what we do.

01:37:06.480 So we've got to be real careful how we handle that word chosen.

01:37:11.640 And no, I do not think that God chooses certain people to go to heaven, and He chooses others

01:37:17.540 to go to hell.

01:37:18.920 One of the most painful experiences I had was at Stanford.

01:37:22.080 I was speaking in a dorm lounge, and a lot of faculty, for some reason that I don't know,

01:37:26.220 showed up.

01:37:26.780 And I tried to pull those faculty out to express their worldview, their faith, whatever it

01:37:32.880 was.

01:37:33.860 They refused to.

01:37:35.400 They remained totally silent, and it was the students who dialogued with me.

01:37:40.080 But afterwards, one professor said, all right, Cliff, let's go to the kitchen there, and

01:37:45.880 let's talk.

01:37:47.320 And I mean, that guy laced into me.

01:37:49.040 It was incredible.

01:37:50.380 And I mean, he called me some interesting words, and it just was really negative.

01:37:56.320 What was he mad about?

01:37:58.040 Well, that's what I didn't know, until afterwards.

01:38:01.180 I went to the students who had invited me to Stanford, and I said, gosh, I had the most

01:38:05.440 intense discussion with your religion professor.

01:38:08.980 Imaginable.

01:38:09.780 No one hates God more than a religion professor at Stanford.

01:38:12.280 Sorry.

01:38:14.060 Sorry.

01:38:14.860 Well, what was so scary was, the guy who invited me said, Cliff, that guy grew up in a home

01:38:21.640 where his dad was a minister, and he had a brother.

01:38:24.840 And one day, their father looked him in the face, and he said to the other brother, you're

01:38:30.740 predestined to go to heaven.

01:38:32.940 And he looked into the face of the guy who's now the religion professor at Stanford, but

01:38:36.120 this was years ago, so I doubt he's there now, and said, and you're predestined to go

01:38:39.680 to hell, can you imagine that?

01:38:42.720 What an incredible perversion of the whole idea of predestination, of the whole idea of

01:38:48.420 chosen or elect, and yet here's a Stanford University religion professor who was treated

01:38:54.020 that way by his own father, who was a minister.

01:38:56.660 It sounds like he was working to make it true, though.

01:39:01.280 Sounds like he was living in hell.

01:39:03.920 Yeah, doesn't it?

01:39:04.700 If he's yelling at you, yeah, for talking about the gospel, which is like...

01:39:09.680 You know, non-violent, love-based religion, yeah, if you're mad about that, like, there's

01:39:13.520 something, you know, you're the problem, I would say, but not to be mean.

01:39:18.260 But there does seem to be, and I, of course, could be misreading it, probably am, but at

01:39:24.840 least one section, maybe a couple, where Jesus says, you know, like, no one can come to me

01:39:29.320 except those who are chosen to come to me.

01:39:31.220 I think that's what he says.

01:39:32.640 Okay, I think the language is, unless the father draws him.

01:39:35.280 Correct.

01:39:35.980 That's exactly right.

01:39:36.960 So, Tucker, if I stood here, sat here, and said to you, you know why I believe in Jesus?

01:39:42.120 Because I'm a really great guy.

01:39:43.840 And I just made the right decision.

01:39:45.560 I'm a fool.

01:39:47.200 No, I love Jesus because Jesus first loved me.

01:39:51.340 Right.

01:39:51.860 My love for him is not because I've got this love welling out of my heart, and I'm just

01:39:55.440 such a great guy.

01:39:56.800 No, he first loved me.

01:39:58.380 He chose me.

01:39:59.800 He drew me to himself.

01:40:01.300 I have never converted anybody.

01:40:04.700 I have simply put the gospel, the good news of God's love for you in front of people,

01:40:09.040 and God's Holy Spirit works in people's hearts, and they either say yes or no.

01:40:14.000 And I can't control that.

01:40:15.260 I have no desire to control that.

01:40:16.400 That's not my job.

01:40:18.240 I've got to respect a person's right to walk away from Christ or to trust in him because

01:40:24.880 God created us that way.

01:40:26.500 And when a rich young ruler, after asking Jesus how to get to heaven, finds out, he

01:40:32.280 walks away with a sad look on his face.

01:40:35.160 And Christ doesn't go run after him and grab his cloak and say, oh, wait a second, bud.

01:40:38.840 You've got to believe in me.

01:40:40.480 No, he respects the guy enough to say, okay, that's your decision.

01:40:44.860 I respect your decision.

01:40:46.760 I disagree with it totally.

01:40:49.220 So I'm convinced that God allows us to walk away from him.

01:40:52.580 Tragic, and God also draws us to himself by his Holy Spirit.

01:40:58.100 But look at anthropology.

01:40:59.660 Anthropology shows us that every culture has some type of religion.

01:41:03.680 So I'm convinced that the only reason an atheist doesn't find God is for the same reason a

01:41:08.460 criminal does not find the police.

01:41:10.180 He's running away.

01:41:11.040 Every society is based on religion.

01:41:12.760 Pardon?

01:41:13.100 Every society is based on religion.

01:41:14.940 Yeah.

01:41:15.320 Including ours.

01:41:16.020 Ours is the trans religion or whatever it is, but it's still a, it's an evangelical faith.

01:41:20.760 They find the trans flag outside U.S. embassies around the world.

01:41:24.500 I mean, I'm not for it, of course, but I mean, I recognize what it is, which is a religion.

01:41:29.080 It's a religion.

01:41:29.920 You're flying, you're flying the flag, but instead of the cross, there's a rainbow.

01:41:34.420 Do you, my last sort of overview question for you is, since you've been doing this for

01:41:39.720 so long, do you think there's more persecution of Christians now, or do you think there's

01:41:48.300 a revival of Christianity in the United States, or is there both?

01:41:51.460 Both.

01:41:52.360 Really?

01:41:52.900 Tell me what you notice.

01:41:54.520 The 20th century had more Christian martyrs than all the centuries before that combined.

01:41:58.500 Yeah, I noticed.

01:41:59.500 Yep.

01:42:00.940 That's not talked about too much.

01:42:02.740 Yeah, really?

01:42:03.440 Yeah.

01:42:03.720 Since the year 2000, over 50,000 Nigerian Christians have been slaughtered by terrorists

01:42:11.460 for their faith in Christ, beheaded right outside the church or inside the church building.

01:42:16.920 That's tragic.

01:42:18.400 That is so sick, so sad, and yet it's real.

01:42:22.420 And yet I'm convinced that the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church.

01:42:26.120 I'm convinced that to spread Christianity, I must not kill others, but be willing to die

01:42:33.700 for my faith, to be killed.

01:42:37.420 And that's exactly what happened in the first, second, third century.

01:42:40.360 Yes, big time.

01:42:41.800 And when Christianity got political power, whoa, things got really difficult, really perverted,

01:42:49.620 really fast.

01:42:52.480 So we, as followers of Christ, we have to be very, very careful about power.

01:42:56.320 We need to use it.

01:42:57.300 It's a gift from God.

01:42:58.320 It's a good gift from God.

01:43:00.560 But we better have that same degree of skepticism that Abraham Lincoln did when he said to that

01:43:04.380 minister, no, let's not pray that God is on our side.

01:43:07.300 Let's pray that we are on God's side.

01:43:09.600 And that's one of the reasons that I respect a guy like Charlie Kirk.

01:43:13.980 He does not buy into Christian nationalism.

01:43:16.960 We're the best.

01:43:17.860 But nation's number one.

01:43:21.000 He understands Christ is number one.

01:43:23.320 And now we better get off our backsides and help make this country more serious about

01:43:28.900 following Christ in our policies, in the way we do business.

01:43:33.880 And I think that's awesome.

01:43:35.500 I think that's absolutely fantastic.

01:43:38.320 There's a huge, you used the phrase Christian nationalism, which is, I hate this term, but

01:43:42.660 a hot button phrase.

01:43:43.940 Yep.

01:43:45.000 But never really defined.

01:43:46.520 So people can impute whatever meaning they want to.

01:43:49.620 Exactly.

01:43:51.380 And the meanings differ greatly.

01:43:53.040 So if by Christian nationalism, you mean you try to make it a more Christian country.

01:43:57.500 That's what you just advocated for.

01:43:59.540 Right.

01:43:59.880 If it means put a religious leader in charge of the country and make a state religion, that's

01:44:06.240 an entirely different meaning, which you oppose.

01:44:08.040 Beautifully put.

01:44:09.260 Right.

01:44:09.760 So I couldn't agree with you more.

01:44:11.700 Christian nationalism, I think its critics mean any effort to make it a more Christian country.

01:44:18.400 Correct.

01:44:19.420 Right.

01:44:19.660 And so I'm opposed to the critics of Christian nationalism, but I'm against a state religion.

01:44:24.360 Yep.

01:44:25.060 Same here.

01:44:25.880 Good.

01:44:26.180 Okay, good.

01:44:26.820 Sorry, I just, but that's one of those phrases that just like evokes all kinds of connotations

01:44:33.640 that you may not have meant.

01:44:34.840 So I just wanted to put a finer point on it.

01:44:36.380 And remember, Tucker, when I speak on state university campuses or Ivy League campuses,

01:44:42.000 I am not speaking in an echo chamber.

01:44:44.960 The majority of people disagree.

01:44:46.880 No, you're definitely not.

01:44:48.920 The majority of people strongly disagree with me.

01:44:50.960 So when you were at Smith, I meant to ask you this.

01:44:53.260 Did you use the phrase, can I get an amen?

01:44:56.860 No.

01:44:57.480 You didn't?

01:44:58.260 Okay.

01:44:58.740 It would have been funny if you had.

01:45:00.100 I mean, just think, Tucker.

01:45:01.260 Crickets.

01:45:01.560 This February, March, April, I was at, with Stuart.

01:45:06.340 Stuart and I were at Stanford, UC Davis, UC Berkeley, Harvard, MIT, Princeton, Columbia,

01:45:16.620 Cornell, Clemson.

01:45:20.660 Those are not echo chambers.

01:45:22.400 How long till you get stoned and not in a fun way?

01:45:25.040 Right.

01:45:25.660 I don't know.

01:45:27.160 And there are some people I think are a little too concerned about that.

01:45:30.200 I am not concerned.

01:45:30.900 I don't, I think university campuses are still very safe places, although I know there's

01:45:35.500 been some problems, but no, I'm, and I know ultimately, Tucker, that my hand, my life

01:45:41.220 is in the hands of Christ and I'm safe and secure.

01:45:44.460 And I have a great deal of respect for the apostle Paul when he writes in Philippians

01:45:49.080 123, I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far.

01:45:55.100 And that's the hope that we have as followers of Christ.

01:45:57.240 He like wrote most of his letters chained to a wall in a dungeon somewhere.

01:46:01.280 Exactly, brother.

01:46:01.840 It's exactly right, Tucker.

01:46:03.680 It's exactly right.

01:46:05.160 I know it's not a holy term, but what a badass that guy was.

01:46:08.020 Oh, no kidding.

01:46:08.880 I mean, for real.

01:46:10.180 For real is right.

01:46:11.120 Okay, so the second half of the final question, which is about revival, there is more persecution,

01:46:18.720 you believe.

01:46:19.900 I think objectively you're right.

01:46:21.900 Harder to quantify is revival.

01:46:24.300 Yes, harder to quantify.

01:46:25.320 What's your sense?

01:46:26.160 All I know is the past year, I have met more excited followers of Christ on campuses than

01:46:33.500 ever before.

01:46:34.820 I am very excited the way young people are taking Jesus more seriously.

01:46:40.260 I do not think it's a health wealth gospel.

01:46:43.080 I do not think it's a think positive gospel.

01:46:46.120 I think it really grapples with good and evil, righteousness and unrighteousness, justice

01:46:51.640 and injustice in a biblical way, not in a elitist way in the United States.

01:46:58.860 So I am very, very excited about what's happening.

01:47:03.320 Should you run into more students who are open-minded?

01:47:06.660 Yes.

01:47:08.120 I'm getting more really personal questions.

01:47:12.280 You know, whenever things are getting a little tense in the crowds outside, all I got to do

01:47:16.900 is talk about divorce and the pain of divorce, and it gets real quiet.

01:47:20.940 Really?

01:47:21.260 What do you say?

01:47:23.980 One of the reasons we all need Jesus Christ is because we all experience alienation.

01:47:30.640 And too many of you in this crowd right now know exactly what I'm talking about.

01:47:34.620 Because your mom and dad were so alienated from each other that they divorced.

01:47:39.240 And you don't need me to tell you how much pain that brought into your life.

01:47:44.600 And I'm sorry.

01:47:46.020 It's wrong.

01:47:47.160 It's not right.

01:47:47.980 But what I plead with you is, realize that there is a good God who wants to be your father

01:47:53.520 in heaven, to really protect you, to really care for you, who has your best interests in mind.

01:47:59.120 Don't take it from me.

01:48:00.640 Read the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

01:48:03.440 Examine this Christ for yourself.

01:48:06.740 And you think people are open to that?

01:48:09.520 Some are not.

01:48:10.580 They've been so betrayed by their own parents.

01:48:13.940 I mean, that's what that is.

01:48:14.820 It's betrayal.

01:48:15.260 I mean, I've lived it.

01:48:16.380 So I know.

01:48:16.880 But that's, and many people have, at least half the country has.

01:48:20.100 Because that's a betrayal of the child.

01:48:25.140 Bingo.

01:48:25.960 You're absolutely right again.

01:48:28.600 And you think that makes them more open to your message?

01:48:31.900 Well, yeah.

01:48:32.360 Because they understand alienation.

01:48:33.940 Yeah.

01:48:34.800 They've experienced the pain of alienation.

01:48:37.300 And that's why when forgiveness is pictured in a very graphic way, and the practical nitty-gritty

01:48:43.860 boots-on-the-ground description is given of forgiveness, hopefully it's going to begin

01:48:48.780 to make a little more sense.

01:48:50.000 And the importance of it is going to become highlighted, because they watched mom and dad

01:48:53.840 who could not forgive each other and reconcile.

01:48:56.540 Yes.

01:48:57.320 That's exactly why.

01:48:59.160 That's interesting.

01:49:00.140 What about drug use?

01:49:03.560 Drug use is, I mean, I thought it was bad when I was a kid.

01:49:06.360 But it seems, it seems totally out of control now.

01:49:10.100 Yeah.

01:49:11.260 Do you, why do you think that is?

01:49:14.400 Why do I think that is?

01:49:15.840 Yeah.

01:49:16.980 Well, I think drugs are very attractive if I'm in pain.

01:49:20.520 It's a way to assuage the pain.

01:49:22.460 Yeah.

01:49:23.120 Why not pop a pill?

01:49:26.180 Why not get into alcohol?

01:49:28.220 Yeah.

01:49:28.380 I'm in pain.

01:49:29.000 I'm hurting.

01:49:29.740 And I can't stand this.

01:49:31.620 So I need some relief from the pain.

01:49:33.980 And I'll get to use drugs.

01:49:35.100 I'll use alcohol.

01:49:35.700 I'll use promiscuous lifestyle.

01:49:38.020 The thrill of orgasm.

01:49:39.900 I'll do whatever it needs to, to take care of the pain, the meaninglessness, the angst

01:49:45.200 of life.

01:49:46.880 Yeah.

01:49:48.280 Christ says, come and follow me.

01:49:49.700 It's not going to be easy.

01:49:50.580 You're going to have to do some hard work.

01:49:52.120 But come and follow me and I will give you abundant life.

01:49:54.960 A life that really flourishes.

01:49:56.700 That's really good.

01:49:57.820 When you submit to me and trust me.

01:50:00.780 And it's fun to watch more and more people begin to take Christ seriously and say, you

01:50:04.500 know, I don't think drugs and alcohol are really the way to deal with my pain.

01:50:08.780 I mean, you know, I love to ask students the question, if you could ask God one question,

01:50:13.700 what would it be?

01:50:15.100 Well, I like to still play basketball.

01:50:16.820 I don't really play basketball, Tucker.

01:50:18.360 I waddle out there on the court.

01:50:20.040 But there was this one guy out there in the Duquesne and YMCA who I went up to and I said,

01:50:24.120 hey, if you could ask God one question, what would it be?

01:50:26.660 He said, let me think about it.

01:50:28.340 You asked this on the court?

01:50:29.620 On the court.

01:50:30.080 Yeah.

01:50:30.240 Four minutes later, the guy comes back to me and he says, guess what?

01:50:34.200 I don't ask questions of beings I don't think exist.

01:50:37.740 Oh, I thought that was pretty abrupt.

01:50:40.280 But I liked his honesty.

01:50:44.280 A few weeks ago, he comes up to me and says, I'm starting to pray.

01:50:52.420 I said, really?

01:50:53.500 I thought you didn't even, I thought you thought that God didn't exist.

01:50:57.380 He said, I almost killed myself with alcohol.

01:51:02.960 I began to realize I got to pray in order to live.

01:51:06.780 I said, wow, that's great.

01:51:09.540 I'm walking out of the Y and getting in my car and all of a sudden from the other end of the parking lot,

01:51:13.660 hey, remember Cliff, faith without works is dead.

01:51:17.820 That's right out of the book of James, the end of the New Testament.

01:51:20.780 So here's this kid who told me, I don't pray because I don't talk to a God

01:51:26.740 who doesn't, and I'm not going to ask you a question about God

01:51:29.400 because I don't ask questions about beings I don't think exist.

01:51:32.060 Now he's going to, now I pray, and now he's going to, according to the book of James, to me.

01:51:38.680 I'm not surprised.

01:51:40.680 I'm not.

01:51:41.240 It's the people who are mad at God who come around to God much more often

01:51:44.460 than the people who just don't even think about it.

01:51:46.240 Someone comes up and is like, I don't think God exists.

01:51:48.700 Oh God, oh your God.

01:51:50.540 He's clearly mad.

01:51:52.540 Yeah.

01:51:52.940 And that suggests an internal tussle.

01:51:55.280 Yes.

01:51:56.100 With his pre-existing from birth deep knowledge that of course God exists.

01:52:00.500 Yeah.

01:52:00.620 And there was that.

01:52:01.460 Yeah.

01:52:02.080 And he's like fighting it.

01:52:03.860 And anyone who's fighting is probably in the end going to submit.

01:52:07.280 Mm-hmm.

01:52:08.900 That's my instinct on it anyway.

01:52:10.460 Same here.

01:52:11.580 That's why when people really go after me out in the open air

01:52:14.480 and people come, you know, humble people come up afterwards and say,

01:52:18.020 Cliff, are you all right?

01:52:19.640 I mean, I mean, that guy was awful mad.

01:52:22.040 He was awful offensive, wasn't he?

01:52:23.720 I'm saying, wait a second.

01:52:24.620 I respect the guy totally.

01:52:26.280 He put right out on the table what he believes.

01:52:28.100 Oh yeah.

01:52:28.420 What he doesn't believe.

01:52:29.340 I loved it.

01:52:30.380 I love every minute of it.

01:52:32.520 Yeah.

01:52:33.140 It's always people like that.

01:52:34.600 It's the person who's like, I've never thought of that before.

01:52:37.500 You know what I mean?

01:52:38.420 Yeah.

01:52:38.580 What does that have to do with my job at the bank?

01:52:41.680 People like that, you have a lot less hope of enlightenment for them.

01:52:45.520 Yeah.

01:52:46.340 Yeah.

01:52:46.680 Than the guy who's wrestling with God.

01:52:48.540 Yeah.

01:52:50.460 Last final question.

01:52:51.840 Are you hopeful for the future of the country?

01:52:55.040 Yes, I am.

01:52:56.900 Because I, as a follower of Christ, understand that God is ultimately sovereign.

01:53:02.940 History is not a string of accidents.

01:53:05.520 History is ultimately God's story.

01:53:07.080 He began it in the beginning.

01:53:08.340 God created the heavens and the earth, and he's going to bring it to a close when Jesus

01:53:11.780 Christ returns in power and great glory.

01:53:14.560 Billy Graham was playing golf with President-elect Kennedy, and after their golf game, Kennedy

01:53:20.200 was driving them back to their residence.

01:53:22.040 And all of a sudden, Kennedy pulls the car off to the side of the road and looks at Dr.

01:53:26.680 Graham and says, do you really think that Christ is going to return a second time?

01:53:34.520 Graham swallowed hard and said, well, the Bible teaches that, and all the church creeds teach

01:53:38.940 that.

01:53:39.260 So, yes, I do believe that.

01:53:40.700 This was pre-Vatican, too, before they're reading the Bible a lot in Catholic churches.

01:53:44.660 No, it's true.

01:53:45.500 It was.

01:53:46.100 Good point.

01:53:47.040 Yeah.

01:53:47.720 Very good point.

01:53:48.980 And gosh, am I ever excited about the number of Catholics that are starting to read the

01:53:52.040 Bible now.

01:53:52.620 A lot.

01:53:53.560 A ton.

01:53:54.560 Yeah, I know.

01:53:54.960 I am ecstatic over that development.

01:53:57.140 Sorry to interrupt, but not to defend Kennedy, but he probably never heard that before.

01:54:01.800 Yeah.

01:54:02.200 That's the whole message of the New Testament, but he'd never heard it.

01:54:05.800 That's exactly right.

01:54:06.560 Well, just think, if you have a worldview that says there is no God, history is a string

01:54:11.540 of accidents, and history is going to end when we all blow ourselves to bits in a nuclear

01:54:16.940 holocaust, or when the sun burns out and we all freeze to death.

01:54:21.440 Entropy.

01:54:22.800 No.

01:54:24.260 Jesus Christ insisted that history is going to end when he returns in power and great glory.

01:54:29.420 That is why I, as a follower of Christ, have hope for the future.

01:54:33.940 Jesus rose from the dead.

01:54:35.320 Jesus said, I am the resurrection and the life.

01:54:38.080 He who believes in me will live, even though he dies.

01:54:41.180 We, as followers of Christ, affirm life more than anybody, because we know that there's eternal

01:54:46.380 life out there.

01:54:47.560 We, as followers of Christ, want to work harder to change our country, to change our world,

01:54:52.280 because you don't work on roads that lead nowhere.

01:54:55.960 And life is not a road that leads nowhere.

01:54:58.300 Life is a road that leads to eternal life in heaven when you trust in Christ.

01:55:02.640 So you begin to get involved in politics.

01:55:04.760 You get involved in your corporation.

01:55:07.440 You get involved in your family, because you know that life is significant, and you know

01:55:11.620 that there's an incredible future out there, because ultimately, Jesus is going to return

01:55:16.280 a second time.

01:55:17.460 Ultimately, Jesus reigns.

01:55:21.120 Cliff, I appreciate it.

01:55:22.720 Thank you very much.

01:55:24.000 Tucker, I can't thank you enough for the awesome privilege.

01:55:26.640 Thank you for your honesty and your openness, your hospitality.

01:55:30.200 My deep theological questions.

01:55:32.440 Not very deep, but thank you.

01:55:34.300 We want to thank you for watching us on Spotify, a company that we use every day.

01:55:42.360 We know the people who run it, good people.

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The Tucker Carlson Show - August 25, 2025

Cliffe Knechtle Answers Tough Questions About the Bible, Demons, Israel, Judas, Free Will, and Death

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