The Tucker Carlson Show - Doctor From Gaza Frontlines Exposes Israeli Torture Programs and Missile Attacks on Hospitals

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00:00:30.000 Back in April of 1994, some of the worst atrocities of the modern era broke out in the landlocked Central African country of Rwanda.

00:00:40.060 To make a very complicated story short, the dominant tribe in Rwanda, the Hutu tribe, which controlled the government, had the majority of the population,

00:00:48.040 for a bunch of different reasons, rose up under the direction of their leaders and attempted to exterminate the minority tribe in the nation called the Tutsis. 0.91

00:00:58.520 And for 100 days, they did their best. 1.00

00:01:00.560 They killed hundreds of thousands of them,

00:01:02.140 more than half a million of them,

00:01:03.980 many with machetes or burned alive or buried alive. 0.98

00:01:07.920 And they raped even more than that. 0.99

00:01:11.020 And not just raped, 0.99

00:01:12.380 but literally corralled AIDS patients in AIDS hospitals 1.00

00:01:17.320 and sent them out to rape Tutsi women 0.97

00:01:20.260 and to affect them with HIV, which they did. 0.99

00:01:23.500 It was horrifying.

00:01:24.560 And as the details of what happened during what is now referred to as the Rwandan genocide filtered out to the rest of the world, people were stunned and nauseated by it and really bewildered that something like this could happen.

00:01:38.300 Not that long after the most famous genocide in history in the 1940s in Europe.

00:01:44.580 To which we'd all said, well, that could never happen again. 0.84

00:01:47.240 Well, it did. 0.98

00:01:48.620 A version of it did happen in Rwanda in 1994.

00:01:53.080 But what was even more distressing and in some ways shocking was that the world knew it was happening as it happened and did nothing to stop it and in most cases said nothing about it, even when it was in progress.

00:02:08.960 from the very beginning, four days after the genocide in Rwanda started, a Swiss journalist

00:02:15.220 in Kilgali, the capital, published a piece in a French newspaper saying, I have interviewed

00:02:20.260 eight officials and there's a genocide going on in Rwanda. This ran in a Western paper and then

00:02:26.400 was picked up in other Western papers, but no one did anything. So the Red Cross knew it was

00:02:32.620 happening. The UN knew it was happening. There were UN troops in Rwanda. The French government

00:02:37.040 knew it was happening. There were French troops there. The nation of Israel knew it was happening.

00:02:41.860 Israel had been a supporter of the Hutu government for decades. In fact, it seems pretty obvious that 0.63

00:02:47.480 some of the bullets and grenades used to murder Tutsis were sold to the Hutu government by the

00:02:53.580 Israelis. And in fact, there's some evidence, apparently, that the Israeli government sold

00:02:59.520 weapons to the Hutu government during the genocide, which were used to murder Tutsis.

00:03:04.680 We say apparently because the documents surrounding this have been classified.

00:03:08.820 They're under seal per orders of an Israeli court.

00:03:11.840 On the grounds that were they to become public, it would be bad for Israel's image globally.

00:03:18.400 So the Israelis knew.

00:03:19.960 And the Clinton administration famously knew it was happening. 0.64

00:03:22.780 But for domestic political reasons, didn't act to stop it.

00:03:27.300 So the lesson is something horrible.

00:03:29.980 In fact, genocide can happen.

00:03:31.500 The world can know what's happening.

00:03:32.680 and allow it to happen.

00:03:36.120 That's the lesson.

00:03:38.040 And it's a lesson that a young Harvard law student

00:03:41.300 called Samantha Power thought about a lot

00:03:43.360 as she was getting her degree in Cambridge.

00:03:45.620 How can a genocide take place

00:03:47.520 within living memory of the Second World War 0.63

00:03:50.380 and the civilized world does nothing about it?

00:03:54.160 Well, in 2002, she published a book on that exact question.

00:03:57.000 The book was called A Problem from Hell.

00:03:59.500 It won the Pulitzer Prize and all kinds of other prizes.

00:04:02.680 And Samantha Power's case was pretty simple.

00:04:06.960 The world cannot allow genocide to happen again.

00:04:09.540 If people find out this is happening, they have to act.

00:04:12.060 That's the mark of civilization.

00:04:14.720 Do you stop mass murder of civilians on ethnic grounds?

00:04:18.900 Genocide.

00:04:19.980 And if you don't, then you're not civilized.

00:04:21.880 The United States, she wrote, has a moral obligation to intervene with force if it determines that a genocide is underway.

00:04:31.440 What's the point of having the world's largest military if you can't at least try to prevent a genocide?

00:04:37.860 Well, as noted, she was lauded for this.

00:04:40.080 The book changed her life.

00:04:41.160 She became one of the most famous people in the world.

00:04:44.240 And in a fairly short period of time, a close advisor to then candidate Barack Obama.

00:04:51.240 He was elected in 2008 and promptly made her the chairman of the Atrocity Prevention Board.

00:04:59.080 You may not have known such a thing existed, but it does.

00:05:01.720 It's an interagency group.

00:05:03.580 It still exists.

00:05:04.940 Name's slightly different. 0.60

00:05:06.520 But its purpose is in the name, preventing atrocities, using the power of the U.S.

00:05:11.380 government to prevent atrocities.

00:05:13.260 Well, there weren't many well-publicized genocides during the first Obama term, but 1.00

00:05:17.520 Samantha Power stuck around.

00:05:19.220 She ended up teaching at Harvard Law School, and then Biden is elected or becomes president

00:05:25.140 in 2020, and she goes back into the White House.

00:05:28.220 At this point, she is the head of USAID,

00:05:30.680 the United States Agency for International Development.

00:05:33.620 She also has a seat on the National Security Council.

00:05:35.920 She is a high-level foreign policy person

00:05:38.280 in the Biden administration.

00:05:40.100 Well, it just so happens that during her time there,

00:05:42.980 the thing that she warned about, wrote about,

00:05:45.840 actually happened, another genocide.

00:05:49.380 This one took place in Gaza,

00:05:52.840 the territory that Israel has controlled,

00:05:55.420 formerly part of Egypt, since 1967.

00:05:58.600 And shortly after the attacks by Hamas into southern Israel in October of 2023,

00:06:06.200 Israel decided to murder as many people as it possibly could in Gaza

00:06:10.480 with the aim of getting the entire population to leave Gaza so Israel could take over Gaza.

00:06:16.760 Now, we're not guessing about this because Israeli officials said out loud,

00:06:21.700 this is our plan.

00:06:23.180 And then they tried to do it.

00:06:25.440 Two interesting things.

00:06:27.640 Samantha Power, famous for opposing genocide, said not a word about this.

00:06:33.920 Of course, by this point, 30 years after the Rwandan genocide,

00:06:38.580 Samantha Power's view of genocide appeared to have changed.

00:06:42.820 So the way to fight genocide really was to empower women and girls in the LGBT community. 1.00

00:06:48.820 Fight the patriarchy.

00:06:50.480 That's how you prevent genocide.

00:06:51.960 But when an actual genocide occurred on her watch,

00:06:56.360 as someone with a seat on the National Security Council,

00:07:00.020 Samantha Power did and said nothing. 0.71

00:07:02.580 She's now back at Harvard Law School,

00:07:03.980 but she has actually been asked about this. 0.98

00:07:06.160 You're the genocide lady,

00:07:07.140 but you did nothing to stop genocide 0.75

00:07:08.360 after writing a book scolding the rest of us

00:07:10.220 for doing nothing to stop genocide?

00:07:11.400 Why is that?

00:07:13.000 She didn't respond well.

00:07:14.300 I'm not here to answer questions like that, she said.

00:07:16.820 You can look it up.

00:07:17.960 It's an amazing exchange.

00:07:19.940 What she did not say was,

00:07:21.280 you're absolutely right.

00:07:22.500 I wrote a book saying

00:07:23.600 the civilized world can't allow genocide to happen.

00:07:26.360 And then I allowed it to happen.

00:07:28.420 But that's exactly what she did.

00:07:31.520 But what's even more interesting is that she's not alone in this. 0.66

00:07:35.240 Everybody knew from the first week after October 7th that Israel planned to commit genocide,

00:07:43.400 traditionally defined genocide, targeting a population because of their bloodline

00:07:47.380 and trying to exterminate or move them.

00:07:49.400 everyone knew this because israel announced it twice in october of 2023 the prime minister of

00:07:57.780 israel benjamin netanyahu said out loud in a public speech the palestinians are amalek

00:08:03.580 amalek a reference that many in the west didn't get but everyone in the region understood

00:08:07.860 and it's a reference to first samuel 15 the first verses in it which you should read because it

00:08:13.980 tells you a lot about what Israel's doing now. But those verses describe God's command to

00:08:19.980 eliminate a tribe called the Amalekites. And not just the draft-age men, but all of them, 1.00

00:08:28.860 including children and infants. All of them. Kill all of them. Destroy all of their property.

00:08:35.760 Slay all of their animals. This is God's command. So when Benjamin Netanyahu describes the 1.00

00:08:40.880 Palestinians as Amalek twice in the first month of the Gaza operation. You don't need to guess

00:08:47.240 what the point of this is. The point is to destroy every man, woman, and child, child and infant 0.99

00:08:53.560 in Gaza. And they set about doing that. But it wasn't just Netanyahu who said that. 1.00

00:09:00.060 It was a lot of different authorities in Israel. And in fact, as someone who's been keeping a list

00:09:07.220 of this for a while. It might be worth reading them, just so everyone knows this isn't blood

00:09:11.000 libel. It is true. On October 9th, so three days after the Hamas attacks, the defense minister of

00:09:18.920 Israel, their own Pete Hegseth, described his plans for Gaza, not for Hamas, for the entire

00:09:27.080 territory, for the over 2 million people who live there. And we're quoting, no electricity,

00:09:33.280 No food will be allowed in.

00:09:35.500 We are fighting human animals, not human beings, human animals.

00:09:41.480 Well, the deputy mayor of Jerusalem that winter responded not to say, whoa, whoa, settle down, defense minister.

00:09:50.140 Calling your opponents animals is, of course, genocidal talk.

00:09:55.920 No, the deputy mayor of Jerusalem thought he didn't go far enough.

00:10:00.560 And he said this, they're not human animals, they're not human beings, they are sub-human. 0.88

00:10:10.040 And then he said that the Palestinians of Gaza should be buried alive with bulldozers,

00:10:15.500 which some ultimately apparently were. 0.98

00:10:21.740 Ben Gavir, Matt Brooks of the Republican Jewish Coalition, carpet bomb!

00:10:27.380 cabinet ministers in israel supporters of israel in the united states making the same case in public

00:10:34.580 from the very first day kill indiscriminately move them out there were discussions on the 0.92

00:10:40.180 american right but what we should do with those gosans the people who live there 0.99

00:10:44.340 move them to other countries egypt maybe even the united states get them out kill enough of 0.98

00:10:51.300 them that the rest leave the survivors want to flee and so the aim was genocidal from the 0.53

00:10:57.260 very first day the israelis announced it israel's supporters in the united states seconded it

00:11:03.220 amplified it and members of the u.s congress on television the people who are paying for this 0.88

00:11:09.520 genocide announced proudly that's right the israelis have every right to kill civilians 0.62

00:11:16.580 and that's why we are paying them and giving them weapons to do so watch this i would encourage the 0.80

00:11:22.540 other side to not so lightly throw around the idea of innocent Palestinian civilians, as is

00:11:29.700 frequently said. I don't think we would so lightly throw around the term innocent Nazi civilians

00:11:36.100 during World War Two. In World War Two, we did not negotiate a surrender with the Nazis. We did

00:11:42.640 not negotiate a surrender with the Japanese. We nuked the Japanese twice in order to get 1.00

00:11:47.820 unconditional surrender. That needs to be the same here. Many people in this part of the world 1.00

00:11:52.520 say what happened in gaza does not align with christian values killing children killing mothers

00:11:57.480 i'll be honest with families who are not militants yeah i just i don't buy that at all why because

00:12:02.200 what did we do in world war ii did we think one minute about starving the germans did we bomb

00:12:09.560 every city into blue to smithereens so this is a war no october 7th to world war ii yes i am this 0.66

00:12:17.400 This is an absolute existential threat to the Jewish people. 0.90

00:12:21.040 We flattened Berlin. 1.00

00:12:22.380 We flattened Tokyo. 0.99

00:12:25.240 Were we wrong to drop an atomic bomb to end the Japanese reign of terror? 0.99

00:12:30.400 Were we? 0.98

00:12:31.620 So my view, if I were Israel, I would have probably done it the same way. 1.00

00:12:38.080 There are no innocent Palestinian civilians. 0.98

00:12:42.260 We starved the Germans. 1.00

00:12:43.780 We're proud of it. 1.00

00:12:44.740 We dropped an atomic bomb on Japanese civilians. 1.00

00:12:47.920 We're proud of it. 1.00

00:12:48.980 The Israelis should do the same here. 0.95

00:12:51.160 Now, if there's another definition of genocide, 0.99

00:12:54.400 intentionally targeting the innocent for murder,

00:12:57.120 it would be interesting to know what it is.

00:12:59.300 Keep in mind, none of these people,

00:13:01.160 Brian Mass from Florida, Randy Fine from Florida,

00:13:05.420 in the end, of course, Lindsey Graham from South Carolina,

00:13:09.180 none of them even bothered to add the caveat,

00:13:11.620 well, Hamas supporters, no. 0.99

00:13:13.500 People who live next door to Hamas supporters, down the street from Hamas supporters, in the same region as Hamas supporters, Arabs, must be killed because they're Arabs. 0.99

00:13:27.780 How is that any different from Hutu Radio comparing the Tutsis to cockroaches? 0.98

00:13:33.500 How is the net result different? 0.95

00:13:35.640 Well, it's identical in both cases.

00:13:37.220 how is it different? And this is an explicit violation of the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism,

00:13:42.900 but it's also true. How is this different from what the Germans did to civilians in World War II? 0.69

00:13:47.860 It's different in its scale, thankfully. Is it different in its intent? It's hard to see how. 0.82

00:13:55.200 And if it is different, how? How is it different? Well, of course it's not. It's the same thing.

00:14:01.840 All of this, by the way, was going on with Samantha Power, not to beat up on poor Samantha 1.00

00:14:04.880 the power clearly didn't sign up for this she just wanted to talk about the empowerment of

00:14:09.820 women and girls in the lgbt community but how could you write a book on genocide or claim to

00:14:18.100 oppose genocide or send money to a holocaust memorial or talk about the second world war at

00:14:25.620 all and the atrocities against civilians and stand by much less fund this while it happens

00:14:30.820 It's hard to understand.

00:14:33.260 But not only have they, they being the supporters of the Israeli government, they've done both 0.59

00:14:38.780 at the same time, lecturing the world about why genocide is wrong, murdering the innocent 0.66

00:14:45.440 is wrong, and they're right, and at the same time, bragging about those very same things 0.86

00:14:52.160 in Gaza. 0.58

00:14:52.860 Here is a now thankfully famous couple of tweets from Randy Fine of Florida, gloating

00:14:59.500 about the murder of civilians in Gaza.

00:15:02.340 The first is a picture of a dead child

00:15:05.020 killed by the Israeli government

00:15:06.260 that somebody put in his Twitter feed

00:15:07.820 and asked basically,

00:15:10.120 how can you sleep at night?

00:15:11.220 And he says, quite well, actually,

00:15:12.680 thanks for the pic,

00:15:13.980 with an exclamation point.

00:15:16.920 And the second is a story

00:15:19.080 about starvation in Gaza,

00:15:20.600 which is real

00:15:21.440 and entirely manufactured

00:15:22.660 by the Israeli government

00:15:23.700 with the backstop of the American government.

00:15:25.540 And Randy Fine, on seeing a picture of starving civilians, women and children, writes, starve away.

00:15:37.560 Starve away.

00:15:40.080 So here you have sitting members of the United States Congress, not simply denying genocide, but encouraging it, gloating over it, celebrating it.

00:15:51.760 How did this happen?

00:15:54.200 How did the rest of the United States

00:15:56.200 stand by and allow the federal government

00:15:58.680 to take its tax dollars to fund this?

00:16:01.420 Israel could do none of this by itself.

00:16:03.340 Of course, it couldn't exist

00:16:04.680 without U.S. tax dollars.

00:16:06.680 It would be destroyed by its enemies.

00:16:10.100 There's no question about that.

00:16:12.360 So how exactly have members of Congress

00:16:15.080 been allowed not simply to fund,

00:16:16.880 but to celebrate genocide

00:16:18.280 here in the United States?

00:16:19.880 And the answer is really simple.

00:16:23.260 by a form of moral blackmail.

00:16:25.220 Where the real criminals here

00:16:26.700 are not Smotrich and Ben-Gavir 0.51

00:16:29.100 and Netanyahu

00:16:30.020 and the deputy mayor of Jerusalem,

00:16:32.760 the people who are calling

00:16:34.260 women and children who are Arabs 0.99

00:16:36.640 animals who must be 1.00

00:16:38.220 buried alive with bulldozers, 1.00

00:16:41.720 starved to death.

00:16:43.360 No. 0.94

00:16:44.500 The real criminals,

00:16:46.120 the people who should be

00:16:47.040 in serious trouble,

00:16:48.200 should go to jail, 0.86

00:16:49.440 are the people who notice it,

00:16:51.120 who complain about it, who object to it.

00:16:55.880 Even the people who ever so mildly say,

00:16:58.540 not my business, but I don't want to fund this.

00:17:00.900 Those people are the people who have committed the real moral crimes.

00:17:05.180 Hate to put this up again, but it's such a perfect distillation.

00:17:10.220 Almost everything Mark Levin says, none of it is original.

00:17:13.180 All of it is the kind of most vulgar form of the talking points

00:17:17.420 that everyone else is using.

00:17:18.600 his are just revealing because he doesn't hold back here's mark levin describing people who

00:17:26.120 complain about the genocide in gaza watch who the hell do you think you are who the hell do you think

00:17:34.060 you are to use these blood libels against the jewish people that they're indiscriminately 0.99

00:17:40.600 murdering Palestinian civilians when you spew the lives of the Hamas terrorists against the Jews 0.94

00:17:49.580 and unleash anti-Semitism in this country around the world like we've never seen before? Who the 0.99

00:17:55.800 hell do you think you are? The idea that the Israeli people, that the representatives in the 0.98

00:18:00.900 government are committing acts of genocide and war crimes against the Palestinians in Gaza 0.87

00:18:06.380 is sickening. It's a it's a blood libel. Joe Biden basically using blood libel after blood

00:18:13.780 libel against the Israelis that they're killing all these civilians. They're using the Hamas 0.96

00:18:17.960 numbers. All of this will be certified. All of this will be sanctified. All the Hitler youth 0.99

00:18:23.840 on our campuses, the Hitler youth throughout Europe and the Hitlerians throughout Europe 0.91

00:18:28.240 where the Holocaust started. This is what they're going to take out of October 7th. 0.96

00:18:33.180 The enemy is Hamas. The enemy is Iran. The enemy are those who are silent in the face 0.96

00:18:39.600 of this kind of genocide. That is by the terrorists. Keep in mind that Joe Biden did

00:18:45.080 nothing to stop the genocide in Gaza. Of course, he continued to allow the U.S. government to pay

00:18:50.460 for it. His criticisms were mild and in the end, ineffectual. And even as we noted, his

00:18:58.080 in-house genocide expert didn't say a word about it. Biden let this happen, just as Donald Trump

00:19:03.980 has let this happen and encouraged it to happen. But anyone who notices it is the real terrorist.

00:19:12.200 So what you have here is the desperate attempt, which appears to be coming to an end,

00:19:18.140 of the people committing the crimes, trying to remain the victim of the crime.

00:19:25.160 And it's just not sustainable.

00:19:26.620 It's not sustainable as a math question.

00:19:29.820 All murder of civilians is wrong.

00:19:31.940 But since we're comparing,

00:19:33.640 in what place have more civilians been murdered?

00:19:37.420 Israel or Gaza?

00:19:38.900 It's not even close.

00:19:40.240 It's not even close.

00:19:41.780 And again, you don't even need to go there.

00:19:42.900 You just say it's always wrong.

00:19:44.220 It's wrong when you do it.

00:19:45.620 It's wrong when you do it.

00:19:46.360 It would be wrong if I did it.

00:19:47.380 And we're all capable of it,

00:19:48.680 which is one of the deepest lessons

00:19:50.780 of what's happened in Gaza and Rwanda

00:19:52.700 and Buchenwald.

00:19:54.200 is it the desire to kill groups of other people

00:19:59.120 is not limited to one race or religion.

00:20:03.360 It's a species of the same evil

00:20:05.200 that lurks in every human heart.

00:20:06.720 It's just the way people are.

00:20:08.660 And under certain circumstances,

00:20:10.180 good people can do horrifying things

00:20:12.500 and support horrifying things.

00:20:14.240 And they're probably good people 0.72

00:20:15.400 who support the genocide in Gaza

00:20:16.900 because they're under some kind of spell.

00:20:18.800 They don't know what they're saying.

00:20:20.300 They don't understand the implications of it.

00:20:22.240 They don't understand the physical reality of it.

00:20:24.200 everybody is capable of evil.

00:20:27.780 That's the truth.

00:20:28.460 That's the universal lesson. 0.98

00:20:31.220 But supporters of Israel

00:20:32.340 don't believe in anything

00:20:33.020 that's universal.

00:20:34.380 They believe that there's

00:20:35.340 one set of rules

00:20:36.600 for the country they admire

00:20:38.960 and another set for the world.

00:20:40.680 When we do it, it's not wrong.

00:20:42.140 When you do it, it is wrong.

00:20:43.400 In fact, when you complain

00:20:44.080 about our doing it,

00:20:44.920 it's doubly wrong.

00:20:46.400 And that just can't last

00:20:47.740 because it's self-evidently absurd

00:20:49.380 and it won't last.

00:20:51.320 And anyone who's defended it

00:20:52.540 or helped pay for it

00:20:54.200 will face, at the very least, a reckoning at the end, and maybe sooner, one hopes.

00:21:02.460 But in the meantime, because this is a process of stages,

00:21:06.620 it might help just to establish what happened in Gaza.

00:21:09.480 And of course, we're not really sure even now.

00:21:13.460 There are more journalists operating in Kilgali, Rwanda without restriction in 1994

00:21:17.960 than there are in Gaza today.

00:21:20.100 I knew one of them well.

00:21:22.760 A Western journalist, he was never molested by anybody.

00:21:27.700 The Hutu militia never heard him.

00:21:29.420 He stood by and watched the whole thing and he reported on it.

00:21:31.800 That is not the case in Gaza.

00:21:33.920 Hundreds of journalists have been murdered by the Israeli government in Gaza.

00:21:38.120 And the purpose of killing them, of course, was to prevent the rest of the world from

00:21:41.380 knowing what happened there.

00:21:42.940 But some people have been witnesses to this.

00:21:46.460 And we want you to hear the interview that we just did with a man called Nick Maynard,

00:21:51.400 who was one of those witnesses, because we think that his account, which is entirely nonpolitical

00:21:57.020 or even polemical, is instead reliable. He's a physician from Oxford at the university in the

00:22:05.300 UK. He's a cancer doctor. And for a number of years, and he'll explain it in just a moment,

00:22:11.260 he has been in and out of Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza. In recent years, particularly in Gaza,

00:22:16.740 both before and after October 7th.

00:22:20.620 And the things he's seen there are so horrifying

00:22:23.920 that they can't really be rebutted.

00:22:28.140 No one can look at the man you're about to see

00:22:29.960 and say, oh, he's a secret member of Islamic Jihad, 1.00

00:22:32.860 probably a closet Shiite.

00:22:35.400 No, he's a British cancer doctor in his 60s 0.97

00:22:38.000 who does believe in universal principles.

00:22:40.840 You shouldn't kill the innocent

00:22:42.040 because they're innocent.

00:22:42.940 They've done nothing wrong.

00:22:44.180 And when you do,

00:22:45.240 you should be held to account for it.

00:22:47.680 He's not an anti-Semite. He doesn't hate the Jews.

00:22:50.500 Like a lot of Jews around the world,

00:22:52.120 he is horrified by what's happening in Gaza.

00:22:55.200 And he has the bravery to describe it.

00:22:58.220 The cost of living is already making it hard to live here

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00:25:37.060 When you travel, travel well.

00:25:38.940 So without delay, here is Dr. Nick Maynard of Oxford

00:25:44.020 with an account of what he has seen

00:25:46.880 and the people he knows personally

00:25:49.160 who've been murdered by the Israeli government

00:25:51.360 during the longest genocide in this world since 1945.

00:25:58.680 Watch.

00:25:59.780 Doctor, thank you for doing this.

00:26:01.380 So you're a medical professor at Oxford.

00:26:03.280 I think you have one of the world's most respectable jobs, most respected jobs, certainly.

00:26:08.760 And now you are speaking about what you have seen in the most contentious, controversial

00:26:14.380 conflict in the world.

00:26:17.820 How did you decide to speak about what you saw in Gaza?

00:26:22.600 In fact, how did you wind up going to Gaza in the first place?

00:26:26.040 So it was real pure serendipity that I ended up going to Gaza in many ways.

00:26:30.700 I was invited more than 20 years ago, maybe in 2006, to go to the West Bank to teach medical

00:26:37.340 students at Al-Quds University in Jerusalem, in Ramallah, in Hebron, and did that on a very

00:26:42.540 ad hoc basis for a few years. And then I was asked to do the same in Gaza. And I leapt at

00:26:49.980 the opportunity because I'd already sort of fallen in love with the Palestinian people. I'd loved

00:26:55.500 visiting the West Bank. So I went to Gaza for the first... What did you like? It's weird maybe for

00:26:59.880 Americans to hear that because the Palestinians have been so thoroughly maligned by our media

00:27:04.240 for so long that people think of them as violent and primitive. What did you like about the

00:27:09.000 Palestinians? They're the kindest people I've met. They're profoundly resilient, particularly in Gaza,

00:27:14.220 but they're generous. They're kind, very welcoming. I've always been treated wonderfully by them.

00:27:22.400 And when you go to Gaza, I mean, you see that even to a different level yet again.

00:27:28.280 They are incredibly resilient, incredibly resourceful, but they are the kindest, most generous-hearted, most beautiful people I've ever met in the world.

00:27:37.480 Really?

00:27:38.060 Absolutely correct. 0.95

00:27:39.960 I can't overstate the degree to which Americans have been told for decades that the people in Gaza are barely human.

00:27:47.280 And that was not.

00:27:48.140 When did you first go?

00:27:49.360 I went to Gaza for the first time in 2010.

00:27:52.280 And it was just an initial sort of trip to teach.

00:27:55.740 And then ever since then, I've been taking a team of doctors from Oxford to teach medical students there.

00:28:01.360 What was Gaza like? Can you describe it in 2010?

00:28:03.860 Yeah, it was under occupation.

00:28:06.920 So it's been variously described as a large prison or concentration camp.

00:28:11.860 And, you know, people might take issue with that terminology.

00:28:14.800 But what lies behind that is the fact that the 99% plus of the population have never, ever been able to leave their country.

00:28:23.060 So they are in prison there.

00:28:24.080 So we went in through the most remarkable security from Israel.

00:28:28.980 We went through the Erez crossing in northern Gaza.

00:28:32.580 That first trip took us most of the day to get through the security.

00:28:36.860 And we had 10 days, I think, in Gaza.

00:28:40.000 As a Western physician, it took you most of the day to get from Israel into Gaza because of the Israeli security?

00:28:46.480 Because of the Israeli security.

00:28:48.140 It took hours getting through the most remarkably intense security.

00:28:52.500 being grilled repeatedly about why we were going there,

00:28:59.660 what we were doing, why we were going there,

00:29:01.840 why didn't we go to Africa instead, why were we going to Gaza?

00:29:05.020 We wanted to help people, why didn't we go to African countries?

00:29:08.060 Literally those sort of questions were being asked.

00:29:10.160 Is this the same border that Hamas came over on October 7th?

00:29:14.620 No, so Erez's crossing is the very top of Gaza,

00:29:18.600 the northern border with Israel.

00:29:20.680 Hamas came out through the southern,

00:29:23.560 near the bottom of Gaza.

00:29:25.960 Eretz Crossing was destroyed very early on in this conflict,

00:29:30.020 so it's not being used at all.

00:29:32.060 Certainly none of the humanitarian teams that have gone in

00:29:34.640 have gone in through that at all.

00:29:36.400 It's a sort of no-pass area.

00:29:38.480 But you get into Gaza, and I remember vividly,

00:29:40.640 my first visit there in 2010,

00:29:43.200 meeting these people who were just so welcoming.

00:29:46.280 They were so delighted that we'd gone to visit them.

00:29:51.040 And the hospitality was just remarkable.

00:29:54.460 And that's been the way ever since.

00:29:56.420 And indeed, every year I've been going there, I've been taking new people most times.

00:30:01.340 And everyone falls in love with the Palestinian people. 1.00

00:30:04.340 And they all want to go back. 1.00

00:30:06.600 So in those early years, I was just teaching every year.

00:30:09.900 And I've been doing that until 2022.

00:30:13.440 In fact, we had a teaching trip planned for November 23, and that was clearly cancelled.

00:30:18.940 But I've also been involved separate to that in carrying out and teaching cancer surgery.

00:30:24.560 That's what I do in Oxford.

00:30:25.780 So helping them develop their cancer services and teaching my specialty of cancer as well.

00:30:31.680 What did it look like in 2010?

00:30:33.500 It was occupied, as you said, but what was the infrastructure like?

00:30:37.560 Gaza City, how would you describe it?

00:30:39.340 I mean, there was vast amount of wreckage of destroyed buildings because this was not, it's worth pointing out that every single trip I've ever been into Gaza, and I've been many times in those 18 to 16 years, I've seen aerial bombardments.

00:30:55.940 So it's a way of life there.

00:30:57.080 Every trip I've.

00:30:58.260 By Israel.

00:30:58.900 By Israel, aerial bombardments on Gaza by the Israeli Air Force.

00:31:03.680 so and and this was i was there in 2010 not long after the 2008 massive uh military assault on

00:31:11.600 gaza so the destruction you see is remarkable there's loads of buildings have been destroyed

00:31:16.780 and each time you go you see more of that i remember going in in 2015 just after 2014

00:31:23.240 operation protective edge which you may remember which was a about a 58 day military assault i

00:31:28.500 I think the destruction of buildings was just like something I'd never seen before.

00:31:34.380 So you have this sort of mixture of mass destruction, 0.86

00:31:38.660 but you see Gazans rebuilding the whole time.

00:31:41.360 They're there rebuilding their destroyed houses yet again.

00:31:46.100 But it's a busy, thriving place.

00:31:49.100 You go down to Gaza City, where the harbour is, it's busy.

00:31:52.680 There are markets there.

00:31:54.000 There are fishing boats there.

00:31:55.760 They are desperate all the time to get back to normal living, but the resources are very limited.

00:32:03.040 I mean, particularly in the healthcare system there, which is where I've been working, they never have enough resources. 0.99

00:32:09.300 Their economy has almost been completely disabled by Israel all that time.

00:32:16.060 So they have very limited resources for everything, for all aspects of living there, but particularly in the healthcare structure.

00:32:22.680 So in 2010, or let's just say before October 7th, 2023,

00:32:30.480 how would you just, what was the state of the healthcare system in Gaza?

00:32:34.080 It was, I mean, they practiced high quality medicine.

00:32:38.480 The doctors, the nurses, the dietitians, the physiotherapists,

00:32:41.600 the occupational therapists, remarkably talented.

00:32:44.720 And I was teaching the students for years.

00:32:46.380 I know how bright these kids are.

00:32:48.500 They're just remarkably bright.

00:32:50.500 they know so much a lot of it was sort of didactic teaching online teaching which we tried to improve

00:32:57.460 on in our sort of face-to-face teaching but so their knowledge is remarkable they practice

00:33:02.320 medicine at a very high level but they have very limited resources so in my specialty in cancer

00:33:08.160 surgery they didn't have the resources to do absolutely everything so they many patients had

00:33:13.800 to the doctors had to apply to get them transferred for example to the west bank or to

00:33:20.440 Jordan or sometimes into Israel to have specialist treatment that couldn't be carried out

00:33:25.300 in Gaza. So they had to work with very limited resources.

00:33:29.940 How hard was it for cancer patients to leave Gaza for treatment?

00:33:33.600 Very difficult. So there was a very laborious application process. The Ministry of Health

00:33:40.840 had to apply to the Israeli authorities. That took on average about three months

00:33:45.200 for each application to go through.

00:33:48.060 These are all people with life-threatening,

00:33:50.460 time-critical illnesses.

00:33:52.300 So that three months, that cancer would change a lot.

00:33:55.680 Of those applicants, about two-thirds would get through

00:33:58.900 and a third would be rejected.

00:34:00.640 So these are people, again, with life-threatening illnesses

00:34:04.100 which cannot be treated in Gaza.

00:34:06.220 One in three were being rejected,

00:34:08.140 so they would inevitably die.

00:34:11.860 And even if they were granted permission,

00:34:14.000 and they were often sent out alone.

00:34:15.600 So kids sent out for treatment for their brain tumor, for example,

00:34:20.060 might be sent by themselves without any parent accompanying them.

00:34:24.360 Were these kids with a documented history of terrorism?

00:34:28.020 Not at all, not at all. 0.72

00:34:29.280 Why would the Israelis prevent a child with a brain tumor 0.99

00:34:33.500 from getting treatment, not at their expense? 0.74

00:34:37.780 What's the thinking there?

00:34:39.200 I don't know what the thinking is.

00:34:40.960 I mean, there were some patients who were accepted into Israeli hospitals, and there are many examples of that.

00:34:47.780 But why some were turned down, some were accepted, I have no idea.

00:34:52.340 But it is a fact that many people were rejected despite needing life-threatening, life-saving treatment.

00:35:01.420 How many hospitals were in Gaza?

00:35:03.320 There are 36. I mean, the United Nations tells us there are 36 hospitals in Gaza.

00:35:08.760 but some of them are very very small clinics so there are probably four or there were four major

00:35:15.760 hospitals in gaza the indonesian hospital in the north shifa hospital which is the most famous

00:35:20.480 iconic hospital in gaza in gaza city and then the european gaza hospital and nasa hospital in the

00:35:25.900 south of those nasa hospital the nasa medical complex in high newness where i was based most

00:35:31.860 recently is the only remaining large hospital in gaza and even that is very significant what

00:35:38.240 happened to the other ones they've been destroyed why so um i think this is part of the i mean the

00:35:47.000 whole health care infrastructure has been targeted in gaza repeatedly over many years i mean i've

00:35:53.900 been in hospitals being bombed as long ago as 2014 but in this you were in the hospital while

00:36:00.560 it was bombed no i was visiting a hospital before and then i visited art had been bombed i've been

00:36:06.120 hospitals that have been bombed in this current conflict, but not prior to then.

00:36:12.380 I think this is, every single hospital has been attacked.

00:36:16.420 I mean, nearly 2,000 healthcare workers have been killed during this conflict, a far greater

00:36:23.920 proportion than any other conflict in living memory.

00:36:28.380 75 Gazan healthcare workers have been killed per 100,000 capita of population.

00:36:35.460 75 the equivalent number in ukraine is 0.8 in all the other conflicts as single figures

00:36:42.380 of healthcare workers per 100 000 population in gaza at 75 so there's been a grossly disproportionate

00:36:50.260 killing of healthcare workers all the hospitals have been attacked and i think this is i mean i

00:36:56.220 can i'm i'm going to be talking to you about what i've seen with my own eyes the the disproportionate 0.93

00:37:03.260 attack on the healthcare system, I think has been a deliberate part of the Israeli policy

00:37:09.160 to dismantle the whole infrastructure of living in Gaza. 0.86

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00:38:19.080 So you don't think those hospitals were collateral damage?

00:38:22.280 These were accidental attacks?

00:38:23.520 I think they were deliberate attacks

00:38:25.840 and I've been

00:38:26.420 I mean I was in Al-Aqsa hospital

00:38:27.920 when I was attacked

00:38:28.620 on my first couple of trips there

00:38:31.340 before the Rafa crossing

00:38:33.600 was destroyed in May 2024

00:38:36.500 the early trips I took out there

00:38:39.140 since October 7th

00:38:40.780 we went in through Rafa

00:38:41.920 we crossed from Egypt

00:38:43.640 across the Sinai

00:38:44.480 and we

00:38:46.980 that very first trip

00:38:48.520 we were the very first emergency team

00:38:50.780 that got into Gaza

00:38:51.620 and we stayed actually on that occasion in a safe house rather than in the hospital and each day

00:38:58.840 we our guards and staff colleagues communicate with Kogat which is the liaison branch of the

00:39:05.940 Israeli army to check that the route going to the hospital the hospital itself was deconflicted

00:39:11.920 so there was a sort of a rope what we thought was a very robust deconfliction process where

00:39:18.360 The Israeli military would know that we were driving along such and such a road, we were going to work in such and such a hospital, and we would be safe.

00:39:29.100 That was naive of us, clearly. 0.52

00:39:32.480 You'll remember about the Grand Central Kitchen convoy that got bombed.

00:39:36.680 That was the first very publicized example of the deconfliction process breaking down.

00:39:43.240 Al-Aqsa Hospital, I was operating in the operating theatre one day.

00:39:47.980 It was January 5th, 2024.

00:39:50.580 I remember the day, well, operating on a victim of a bomb explosion

00:39:54.440 and an Israeli missile attack hit the intensive care unit

00:39:58.320 right next to where I was working.

00:40:00.960 So we had to...

00:40:01.660 While you were operating?

00:40:02.520 While I was operating.

00:40:04.020 So we finished the operation, we had to evacuate the hospital.

00:40:06.900 Then MSF had a team there.

00:40:08.620 All the foreign aid workers had to evacuate to go back to our safe house,

00:40:14.120 and that hospital rapidly becomes disabled.

00:40:16.800 So there are multiple examples of hospitals being attacked.

00:40:20.700 These are not collateral damage.

00:40:22.540 I mean, the propaganda we hear from the Israeli spokespeople is always,

00:40:27.000 well, these are either collateral damage or they are being used as Hamas command centers

00:40:34.220 and we're just targeting Hamas.

00:40:35.580 And they've never provided any remotely credible or verifiable evidence to support those contentions.

00:40:44.160 Well, as a doctor who's operated in these hospitals, did you notice Hamas command meetings going on while you were there?

00:40:49.940 Not at all.

00:40:50.840 And since October the 7th, I've been in two hospitals.

00:40:54.360 But prior to that, I've worked in all the major hospitals.

00:40:57.580 I've had unlimited access throughout all these hospitals.

00:41:01.580 And I've been to every square inch of these hospitals.

00:41:04.580 you know, NASA medical complex. It was bombed soon after I left most recently. I walked around

00:41:10.860 every single part of the hospital and I've never seen anything. I've seen no evidence of Hamas

00:41:15.940 military activity. Now, I clearly cannot talk about what's going on in any tunnels because I

00:41:22.140 didn't go into any tunnels. I clearly can't talk about what's going on in the hospital outbuilding

00:41:28.520 100 meters away or 75 meters away. And there may be that there were Hamas there. I've no idea.

00:41:33.600 I can bear witness to what I have seen. But, of course, the Israeli military are not bombing those outbuildings. They've been bombing the clinical areas of these hospitals, where there have been patients, where there have been doctors, where there have been medical students.

00:41:50.220 I had been teaching a few weeks previously who were killed in the latest attack on NASA hospitals.

00:41:56.140 So they are targeting the clinical areas.

00:42:00.680 And I can say with absolute clarity, and indeed all my colleagues have been out there,

00:42:06.720 none of us have seen any evidence of Hamas military activity.

00:42:09.220 For comparison, again, you gave the numbers, the number of medical personnel

00:42:14.240 who have been killed in the Russia-Ukraine war.

00:42:15.880 and it's a tiny fraction proportionally of the number who have been killed by the israelis

00:42:21.940 how many hospitals have been totally blown up in that war russia ukraine do you think

00:42:26.820 i don't know i mean that there has been significant targeting of ukrainian hospitals

00:42:33.280 as well and ukraine that the proportion of of healthcare workers killed and hospitals killed

00:42:40.280 and Ukraine is not as bad as Gaza,

00:42:43.480 but it's much more than many previous conflicts.

00:42:46.240 So both those two current conflicts stand out in that respect,

00:42:49.700 but the statistics would say that Gaza is the worst of them. 0.88

00:42:52.540 Targeting hospitals is a war crime, correct? 0.94

00:42:55.160 Yeah. 0.61

00:42:57.560 How many people do you know who've been killed?

00:43:00.160 Many.

00:43:00.680 I mean, close friends, I'd say probably a dozen close friends

00:43:05.700 have been killed, but I probably know...

00:43:09.080 Killed.

00:43:09.400 Yeah, I mean, one young plastic surgeon who I knew, who I'd worked with in May 2023 when I was at Schieffer Hospital, he was executed.

00:43:23.660 And I use that word very carefully.

00:43:26.640 He was discovered about a mile from Schieffer Hospital with his mother.

00:43:32.220 They both had their hands handcuffed behind their backs and they both had bullet wounds in the brains.

00:43:37.440 And so I've had friends who've been bombed.

00:43:40.780 I've had friends who've been shot.

00:43:41.700 And he was a plastic surgeon?

00:43:42.680 He was a plastic surgeon.

00:43:44.740 Why was he executed?

00:43:46.720 Well, when, I don't know.

00:43:48.040 I mean, I don't know what goes on behind this.

00:43:50.260 What I can tell you is that when Schieffer Hospital was,

00:43:54.280 Schieffer Hospital's been destroyed effectively twice during this war.

00:43:58.040 But when it was invaded initially, maybe two years ago,

00:44:02.480 all the staff were displaced

00:44:06.700 including very, very close friends of mine

00:44:09.000 and when they were allowed back in

00:44:13.000 when the Israeli military left off for a few weeks

00:44:15.460 they discovered the dead bodies of 300 civilians

00:44:18.840 in the hospital

00:44:19.720 some patients, some staff

00:44:21.220 many of them handcuffed with their hands behind their back

00:44:23.840 many of them with bullet wounds on the head

00:44:25.820 including this friend of mine

00:44:27.100 so there are multiple examples of people

00:44:30.980 of healthcare staff who've been killed,

00:44:34.100 healthcare staff who've been abducted.

00:44:37.020 I think the latest figure is nearly 500 healthcare workers

00:44:40.500 have been abducted, illegally detained without charge.

00:44:44.560 By the Israeli military?

00:44:45.960 By the Israeli military into the Israeli prison system.

00:44:49.640 Multiple examples of them being tortured.

00:44:53.700 This has all been documented by a group called Healthcare Workers Watch.

00:44:59.600 You can Google it.

00:45:00.360 They produced a document called The Killing and Detention of Guards and Healthcare Workers.

00:45:05.940 And there are multiple examples of people being tortured to death.

00:45:09.760 Tortured to death?

00:45:10.960 Absolutely.

00:45:11.720 So an iconic orthopedic surgeon who I didn't know well, but I had met.

00:45:17.720 And in fact, I had coffee with him in May 2023.

00:45:20.140 He was tortured to death.

00:45:22.280 And in fact, a Sky Television investigative journalist interviewed fellow detainees and did some remarkable investigative journalism.

00:45:33.060 This is all in public domain and described how this surgeon's mode of torture was being raped to death.

00:45:40.160 He had been serially raped on a daily basis for two weeks prior to his dying.

00:45:45.080 His body's never been returned.

00:45:46.880 I've taken detailed testimonies from healthcare workers who've been in Israeli prisons and have

00:45:53.540 been tortured. They survived. I've taken video and audio testimonies and they've described to me

00:45:59.280 their modes of torture, how their genitals were repeatedly attacked specifically. They were

00:46:05.680 electrocuted through their genitals. They underwent severe psychological torture. They were blindfolded 0.92

00:46:12.980 for 60 days in a row they were handcuffed they were not allowed to lie down they were on their

00:46:19.340 knees or sitting for 60 days non-stop beaten regularly electrocuted i mean awful things

00:46:24.820 and this document that i'm you know the health care workers watch your your read your listeners

00:46:29.380 can google that there's a all the different modes of torture all of which by the israeli government

00:46:35.820 by the Israeli Prison Service guards and military.

00:46:40.120 And this is, there is, and again,

00:46:41.840 the evidence is there,

00:46:44.220 detailed testimonies from fellow detainees,

00:46:46.600 from families, indeed some testimonies

00:46:48.740 from the Israeli Prison Service staff as well.

00:46:52.340 And again, this has all been submitted

00:46:53.840 to the international courts.

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00:48:09.260 So the New York Times recently ran a piece

00:48:12.480 saying that Palestinian prisoners

00:48:15.580 had been raped with dogs in Israeli prisons 0.64

00:48:18.720 and the response in the American media 0.84

00:48:20.360 to the extent there was response

00:48:21.880 was to accuse the writer of blood libel against all Jews.

00:48:26.280 This is like accusing rabbis of poisoning wells.

00:48:29.320 It was basically Nazi propaganda.

00:48:30.920 that that was the response does that sound plausible to you it does sound plausible i did

00:48:37.320 not hear any examples of that but what i have heard about and what i've taken detailed test

00:48:42.460 of are some of the most appalling examples of torture so one of the one of my friends who

00:48:49.840 was tortured for 60 days in a prison talked about how he i have i've heard no examples of dogs

00:48:57.360 raping the prisoners.

00:48:59.480 But I have heard multiple examples

00:49:01.320 of the dogs being used as weapons.

00:49:05.220 You'll be familiar with the drone warfare there,

00:49:08.600 the quadcopters with cameras and guns.

00:49:10.860 Well, they have dogs who are trained

00:49:12.220 to go into the hospitals

00:49:13.780 with cameras and guns on their back 0.87

00:49:15.900 and attacking people.

00:49:17.560 And my colleague,

00:49:19.180 of whom I took a detailed testimony,

00:49:21.780 has described that in great detail.

00:49:23.120 Dogs with guns on their backs?

00:49:24.660 Dogs with cameras and guns on their backs and being trained to go into hospitals and shoot people.

00:49:32.280 And I've had multiple examples of that.

00:49:35.580 Of a living dog.

00:49:37.160 Living dogs who are trained.

00:49:39.260 They go into wherever and then there's someone remotely controlling the camera and the guns and then they are.

00:49:46.420 If you told me that it happened in a North Korean prison camp, I would have trouble believing it.

00:49:50.220 You're saying the Israeli government did this.

00:49:52.100 Well, I'm telling you what I have taken, test me of a friend of mine who witnessed this on multiple occasions.

00:50:03.300 What do people, you live still in Britain, what do people in the UK say when you tell them this?

00:50:10.420 So I do, I talk a lot about this.

00:50:13.220 I felt this obligation having witnessed all these atrocities that I feel I have to share this with everyone.

00:50:20.780 And I've done a lot of media interviews.

00:50:24.140 I've done a lot of lectures at medical conferences, at lay people's conferences.

00:50:28.820 And I've met a lot of our senior politicians.

00:50:31.180 And I'm not alone.

00:50:31.760 A lot of people have done this.

00:50:32.700 A lot of my colleagues have done this.

00:50:33.980 A lot of US doctors have done this.

00:50:36.980 I mean, US doctors, British doctors, we've all publicly written to our governments.

00:50:41.380 A few of us wrote a very detailed dossier with photographic and written evidence of what we've seen.

00:50:47.800 We presented it to our prime minister.

00:50:51.500 We submitted it to all the cabinet ministers.

00:50:54.680 So they know what's going on.

00:50:57.180 I visited Washington, D.C. in the early part of this

00:51:00.700 and met members of the Biden administration

00:51:02.680 with friends of mine from MedGlobal, a wonderful U.S. NGO.

00:51:08.280 We went and gave this evidence.

00:51:09.720 We took enlarged laminated color photographs

00:51:13.200 of babies who'd been shot in the head,

00:51:15.900 of children who'd lost their limbs of children who'd start who'd been starved to death literally

00:51:22.580 we've described this to to the to the biden administration i've been to several meetings

00:51:29.460 in our government including one with the prime minister where we've described what's been going

00:51:33.720 on and it's had no impact at all what was your meeting with biden officials like what did they

00:51:38.700 say um they some of them were they were by and large very receptive so we we went to um we met

00:51:48.800 various senators as well but then we met members of the administration they were very receptive

00:51:52.880 we we clearly met people lower down the chain we did meet samantha power she was the most senior

00:51:59.500 who was who was who um i was very impressed with uh we got a very good reception and very

00:52:06.080 sympathetic reception of course none of this goes anywhere so we don't see any actions at the

00:52:12.480 at the end of that um but by and large the u.s politicians we met with were very sympathetic

00:52:19.120 but of course it had no impact whatsoever smith power became famous for writing a book on genocide

00:52:24.480 how we can never allow it again and then she allowed it again um so your your friend who was

00:52:32.080 raped to death your friends who were tortured why why were they detained and tortured i think this

00:52:39.280 is the the there's a clear disproportion of senior health care workers who've been taken

00:52:46.280 compared to junior health care workers my presumption is i mean i again i i i can tell

00:52:53.420 you a lot of facts about what's happened there the my interpretation is is my opinion it would

00:53:00.200 seem to me, and many others who've witnessed all of this, that this has been a deliberate policy

00:53:05.260 to destroy the healthcare system. Well, can you give us a specific example of someone you know

00:53:11.160 who was detained and tortured, and what were the circumstances? How does that happen?

00:53:16.020 So, they're arrested within the hospitals. So, my two colleagues, one of them was arrested in

00:53:21.480 the Indonesian hospital, one of them was arrested in Nassau hospital. The Israeli military invade

00:53:26.700 the hospitals they what would appear to be fairly arbitrarily arrest some let others go predominantly

00:53:34.880 males um they are then taken off and they're i mean so i'll describe what happened to my my the

00:53:43.140 last testimony i took he was with about 20 or 30 other healthcare workers put in a big pit

00:53:50.200 an underground pit with no covering they were stripped naked down to the underwear they're

00:53:54.760 blindfolded they were handcuffed they were left in a pit in the ground for two to three days then

00:54:01.000 they were taken off to an israeli prison um they were left blindfolded they were left handcuffed

00:54:06.520 they were beaten those first few days non-stop for 12 hours at a time um many other forms of

00:54:13.840 torture we've described about all along one of my close friends who's one of the senior deans in

00:54:22.240 the medical school there was was was abducted and taken away he was only taken for i think 10 days

00:54:28.300 and then released but there are so many how old is he he is i guess late 50s oh yeah i mean you

00:54:36.420 know and there are photos not of militant age not of militant age absolutely absolutely and what was

00:54:41.560 the justification well so they were they were continually being grilled about you know what

00:54:47.820 them being Hamas members and what they had done and all that sort of stuff. Now,

00:54:55.140 there are some, so, you know, Hussam Abu Safiyah, who's the director of Kamal Adwan Hospital,

00:55:02.560 was abducted over a year ago. Now, he's still under detention in an Israeli prison. His lawyers

00:55:09.820 can't get in news about him. There are many people who are still there. We can only speculate as to

00:55:16.940 why they are being taken and why they're being tortured.

00:55:20.300 But it seems the deliberate, disproportionate detention

00:55:28.300 of healthcare workers and killing of healthcare workers

00:55:30.840 compared to other civilians speaks to me

00:55:34.020 that there is a deliberate policy of undermining,

00:55:37.180 of destroying the whole healthcare system.

00:55:39.000 Are they charged with crimes put on trial?

00:55:41.600 No, no, no, no. None of them are charged.

00:55:43.540 None of them are charged.

00:55:44.120 These are all people who are detained without charge.

00:55:46.940 So just completely lawless.

00:55:49.240 Yeah, but that's been happening for, as you will know, for decades in the Palestinian territories.

00:55:54.860 There are thousands of Palestinian in the West Bank who are in prison without charge, who've been in prison without charge.

00:56:03.800 So this has been happening for a long time.

00:56:05.940 But certainly the ones that I have interviewed and the ones I've known who've been told, no, there were no charges at all.

00:56:12.360 and a lot of these are adult just adult men with families yeah i mean a lot of them were sort of

00:56:20.720 i i the the the age range of the people i know were from probably early 20s to late 50s

00:56:28.480 it's shocking it is shocking to me and and having seen this having witnessed this this is why

00:56:37.520 I think it is important that we tell everyone what's going on, because this is not what we're

00:56:43.680 hearing from our Western media, from our governments, despite many attempts of foreign

00:56:52.220 doctors have been there to speak out and tell them. Well, some of the accounts are so shocking

00:56:56.040 that the military just rolls into a hospital, abducts senior physicians, and then rapes them

00:57:02.480 in prison with no charges. It's kind of hard to believe that could be true, given that Israel 0.99

00:57:08.840 is regarded by, I think, most people in the United States as a civilized country. Maybe you disagree

00:57:13.200 with their influence over our politics, but it's Israel. It's not that different from us.

00:57:17.880 You're describing totally uncivilized, evil behavior, organized behavior.

00:57:24.940 I'm describing what I have either seen or what close friends have told me,

00:57:30.040 and the volume of accounts that I have read, heard are overwhelming.

00:57:38.160 And to me, the amount of volume of reports coming out

00:57:42.040 tells me very clearly this is happening.

00:57:45.460 So after October 7th, October 7th happens.

00:57:50.060 Are you in the UK when that happened?

00:57:51.200 I was in the UK, yeah.

00:57:54.280 Given how familiar you are with Gaza and the crossings from Gaza into Israel,

00:57:57.800 Were you surprised that Hamas or militants could cross the border in those numbers without pushback from the Israeli military?

00:58:05.280 I think we're all surprised.

00:58:06.580 And I think there's a huge amount we don't know about the events of that day.

00:58:12.480 concentration at the time was within 12 hours of that I was being contacted by my friends and

00:58:23.220 colleagues out there who in the very very early days were predicting there was going to be the

00:58:28.980 most almighty backlash and that they were already on the day afterwards begging those of us who

00:58:38.200 could to go out there and help them so they knew what was coming so i think by the next day by

00:58:45.200 october the 8th they knew what was coming and and we were talking to them you know and and people

00:58:50.860 were trying to get in there right from the word go to go and help when did you get back into gaza

00:58:55.140 after that so my first trip was uh we went in on boxing day so december the 23rd we were meant to

00:59:03.600 again on Christmas Day, and we got delayed by the Egyptian military, in fact, in the Sinai.

00:59:08.340 So we went into Gaza on December the 26th, and it was the first significant emergency medical

00:59:15.660 teams that went in there. What did you find when you got there?

00:59:19.340 I remember approaching it from, we'd had a sort of very long crossing, the northern Sinai,

00:59:25.240 going through all the Egyptian military checkpoints. And it was, I always remember,

00:59:31.860 It was a beautiful day, beautifully sunny, no clouds in the sky.

00:59:36.260 And then you could see, as we approached Rafa from Egypt,

00:59:39.980 you could see, as we approached the Egyptian part of Rafa,

00:59:43.020 you could see this low-lying cloud over the whole of southern Gaza,

00:59:47.320 which, of course, was smoke from the bombs.

00:59:49.580 And you could smell it from about two or three miles away.

00:59:53.160 You could smell the burning, and it was awful.

00:59:56.720 It was awful.

00:59:57.240 So we got into Rafa, we got through the sort of Egyptian checkpoints, then the Gazan checkpoints, and we had to drive through Rafa to get to the house we were, the safe house we were living in.

01:00:12.860 And this was, so this was, you know, two, two and a half months into it, by which time a lot of people have been displaced from northern Gaza and Gaza City.

01:00:23.000 The migration of displaced refugees from the north was like something I've never seen before.

01:00:29.960 As we were driving through Rafa and then up the coast road towards middle Gaza, where the hospital we were going to be working in, Deir al-Bala,

01:00:38.080 it was it's impossible to put words to it the thousands of people walking down most of them

01:00:46.820 walking some of them in horse and cart some of them in in vehicles who'd been displaced and

01:00:52.700 were moving down south to get away from ever from from from all the trauma so that to me

01:00:58.320 was a site i will never forget seeing these people and of course at that time this is very

01:01:04.080 early on, Al-Mawasi, which will be an area you're familiar with. It's what the Israelis,

01:01:10.460 paradoxically, were calling the safe area, that everyone was being evacuated in a safe area.

01:01:13.940 Yes, I remember.

01:01:14.440 You remember that? Well, of course, it's not remotely safe. At that time, there were no

01:01:19.920 tents up there at all. It was people walking there. The next time I went back a few months

01:01:25.540 later, of course, that had been covered in tents. I say tents, but they're not really tents. They're

01:01:29.240 that are makeshift shelters.

01:01:30.880 So the hundreds of thousands

01:01:33.180 had been moved down south

01:01:34.380 was just awful to see.

01:01:38.960 Because their homes

01:01:39.420 had been destroyed?

01:01:40.240 Their homes had been destroyed

01:01:41.420 and, you know,

01:01:43.100 friends of mine

01:01:43.600 had been displaced

01:01:44.240 six, seven, eight, nine times.

01:01:47.180 That very first trip,

01:01:48.480 I remember I was,

01:01:49.260 I'd been in the hospital,

01:01:50.860 in Al-Aq's hospital

01:01:51.700 in Derabala

01:01:52.360 for about four or five days

01:01:54.580 and we have a,

01:01:56.800 I have many friends out there,

01:01:58.320 one particularly close family whose daughter left Gaza about eight years previously.

01:02:04.340 I mentioned she got a scholarship to get out.

01:02:07.580 She stayed in the UK.

01:02:11.800 She's a doctor there.

01:02:12.840 She became a member of our family.

01:02:15.860 So I'd see her family every time I'd go to Gaza.

01:02:19.380 They came to visit me at the hospital in Al-Aqsa just a week after I'd arrived.

01:02:24.960 and they were distraught

01:02:27.820 I mean they'd been displaced six times at that point

01:02:30.340 they were living, no running water

01:02:32.120 no electricity

01:02:32.880 they had all written on their legs

01:02:36.560 in ink

01:02:37.920 their names and their dates of birth

01:02:40.060 and this is what they all did

01:02:41.340 because they all expected to be killed

01:02:43.360 and they wanted their bodies to be recognised

01:02:46.360 they wanted to be identified

01:02:47.660 so these are close friends of mine

01:02:49.680 so it was

01:02:51.980 I saw

01:02:52.740 I mean I

01:02:53.780 I, you know, that first trip, I thought I'd be prepared

01:02:58.420 because I had been on the phone to my guards and friends and colleagues

01:03:02.980 almost daily since October the 7th.

01:03:05.420 We have a strong network in Oxford in particular of people who've been out there.

01:03:09.000 So we were all interacting with all our different contacts.

01:03:13.020 We were meeting regularly on a weekly basis to see what we could do.

01:03:17.600 And I thought I'd be prepared, but nothing could have prepared me for what I saw there.

01:03:21.700 and you're a surgeon

01:03:24.120 so it's not like

01:03:24.940 you're fainting

01:03:25.860 at the sight of blood

01:03:26.660 no

01:03:27.060 I mean

01:03:27.560 you know

01:03:27.980 I've described to you

01:03:28.940 the sort of

01:03:29.420 the non-medical

01:03:30.900 things so far

01:03:31.760 but of course

01:03:32.320 you get into the hospital

01:03:33.360 and it was

01:03:35.020 Al-Aqsa hospital

01:03:37.200 which is where

01:03:37.760 I was first based

01:03:39.280 is a small hospital

01:03:40.960 it's not a trauma

01:03:41.780 it's a very small hospital

01:03:42.920 it has a

01:03:43.560 I think a bed capacity

01:03:44.740 of 200 normally

01:03:45.760 there was something

01:03:46.460 like 800 patients there

01:03:47.840 the grounds

01:03:49.420 of the hospital

01:03:50.020 the corridors

01:03:50.760 the waiting areas

01:03:51.680 was covered in patients and their relatives.

01:03:53.840 You could hardly move.

01:03:55.660 I mean, literally, every time you walked into the hospital,

01:03:57.700 you were treading over people who were lying there or sitting there.

01:04:02.200 And the trauma we saw that time in December 2023,

01:04:08.480 the numbers of aerial bombardments was just nonstop.

01:04:14.460 So we had mass casualty after mass casualty.

01:04:17.900 It was really quite remarkable, the awful trauma we were seeing.

01:04:21.680 And this hospital, the quality of the surgical care, the medical care is remarkable.

01:04:28.440 But there's only so much you can do with limited resources.

01:04:31.020 So the capacity of the hospital was being repeatedly overwhelmed.

01:04:35.280 Were you performing surgeries?

01:04:36.540 Yeah, I spent the whole time operating on major explosive injuries, bomb injuries.

01:04:44.880 And these were injuries affecting.

01:04:47.100 So I do abdominal and thoracic surgery back home in Oxford.

01:04:50.640 So I was operating on the abdomen and the chest all the time.

01:04:54.740 And these were injuries at that time from explosive injuries

01:04:58.620 and from what are called the fragmentation missiles

01:05:03.900 that were being used there.

01:05:05.020 And these are the bombs which contain many thousands

01:05:10.100 of very, very small metal pieces,

01:05:13.060 which then act as thousands of pieces of shrapnel,

01:05:16.360 which tear through the human bodies.

01:05:17.640 These are bombs which are designed to cause the maximum amount of tissue destruction, and they did indeed do that.

01:05:27.160 So we saw multiple civilians, children, 70% of the people I treated in that first trip were women and children being destroyed by these bombs.

01:05:36.200 I mean, I can talk about, you know, the little brother and sister,

01:05:40.700 Ala and Aya, a six- and an eight-year-old brother and sister

01:05:46.780 who were the sole remaining members of their family.

01:05:50.220 Their parents were killed by the bomb.

01:05:52.340 Oh, come on.

01:05:53.640 And, you know, I can see them in front of me as I'm talking to you about them.

01:05:57.900 I can, you know, remember their injuries.

01:06:00.040 We were treating them.

01:06:01.020 These were days when we had completely run out of all pain relief.

01:06:04.780 so we had no painkillers to give them before surgery before surgery in the in the er for

01:06:10.980 example you resuscitation them um little i an eight-year-old girl had such a badly broken leg

01:06:18.640 that it had cut off the blood supply to her foot so that leg had to be straightened in order to

01:06:25.480 stop the foot dying and that had to be done without any pain relief and i i'm telling you this i can

01:06:30.260 hear her screams as that was done so we we saw awful things and and and we we we a group of us

01:06:40.860 who've been out there did a survey of of of about a hundred foreign health care workers who've worked

01:06:48.400 in the acute situations and we had this published in the british medical journal british medical

01:06:53.000 journal end of last year where we described the pattern of injuries and this has been widely

01:07:00.580 disseminated in the medical world now because of the conclusions we drew we described huge and

01:07:08.260 terrible shrapnel injuries gunshot wounds burn injuries but what we've described as multiple

01:07:15.740 examples of high-energy weapons being used in civilian populations. And the pattern of injuries

01:07:24.100 that we described is a pattern that's only previously been described in true combat situations,

01:07:30.980 i.e. when soldiers fight soldiers. The pattern of injuries we described using these high-energy

01:07:37.500 weapons, missiles, has never been described in civilian populations before in such high numbers,

01:07:43.980 Which again, supports the contention that many of us have spoken about, saying that this is evidence of indiscriminate, deliberate, whatever, but mass targeting of civilian populations.

01:08:00.660 And when civilians are killed, by definition, it's murder because they're not part of it.

01:08:05.320 Absolutely.

01:08:05.620 They committed no crime.

01:08:07.520 What are injuries like from high explosive missiles, bombs? 0.82

01:08:14.460 So we don't see those who are within a few hundred meters

01:08:18.620 because they're killed outright.

01:08:20.420 I mean, if they're very close, they get killed by the shockwave.

01:08:23.620 If they're within a few hundred meters,

01:08:25.160 they get destroyed by the shrapnel.

01:08:27.040 So we see people who are several hundred meters away.

01:08:30.280 Several hundred meters away?

01:08:31.940 Yeah, we see they come in with the most appalling injuries.

01:08:35.120 You don't see the pieces of shrapnel.

01:08:37.400 Often they're one or two millimeters.

01:08:40.380 You don't see them.

01:08:41.400 You don't find the majority of them,

01:08:42.500 but you see these multiple entry points throughout the chest,

01:08:45.840 throughout the abdomen, and causing the most appalling damage.

01:08:50.600 I learned a lot from the guards and surgeons.

01:08:53.100 I mean, I work in Oxford.

01:08:54.040 We don't see trauma like that.

01:08:55.600 We don't see trauma like that anywhere in the world, really.

01:08:59.660 Certainly not in the United Kingdom.

01:09:03.000 So they had been dealing with this day in, day in, out.

01:09:06.220 So it was a very steep learning curve for me,

01:09:09.320 and for most of us coming from the UK,

01:09:11.500 dealing with this sort of shrapnel damage,

01:09:14.220 which we don't normally see,

01:09:15.820 but just shredding their way through the lungs,

01:09:18.520 through the diaphragm, through the liver,

01:09:20.160 awful liver injuries, pancreas, bowel injuries.

01:09:23.840 And of course, sometimes you see multiple injuries

01:09:27.440 throughout the abdomen.

01:09:28.600 So you have to laboriously search out

01:09:30.320 all the different holes and different things.

01:09:32.760 So terrible injuries.

01:09:34.040 And of course, they're life-threatening in their own right.

01:09:38.560 But of course, the very strong narrative from my most recent trip, although we called this out on earlier trips, was the malnutrition we saw.

01:09:47.640 So the starvation, these patients coming in with these terrible injuries, but also profoundly malnourished and their inability to heal from injuries from the surgery.

01:10:00.520 So the mortality rate from these injuries was far, far higher than they should have been.

01:10:06.100 I'm confused because we had a guy, an American, called Johnny Moore, who's some sort of self-described Christian minister who ran the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation.

01:10:17.460 And we were assured directly by him that there's no starvation in Gaza because they were bringing in more than enough food aid.

01:10:25.720 That's not true?

01:10:26.780 Most certainly not true.

01:10:28.020 Whether that's a deliberate lie or misinformation, I can categorically say there is no truth in that statement whatsoever.

01:10:34.060 I spoke out about this publicly back in January 2024 when I, that was three months into the, we were beginning to see the signs of malnutrition.

01:10:47.160 i was there again six months later it was much much worse i was there again the following year

01:10:52.700 and the the the malnutrition i mean i can i can reel off names of children who i operated on

01:11:02.440 who died because they were malnourished i mean i they're imprinted on my mind uh you know little

01:11:11.180 habiba a beautiful 11 year old girl who came in she wasn't malnourished she came in but she

01:11:17.520 she had a severe explosive injury her her lower esophagus was shattered that's what i do in

01:11:23.740 oxford i operate on the esophagus day in day out i spend the whole of one night operating

01:11:29.360 reconstructing her esophagus successfully um but because her esophagus was so damaged she couldn't 0.55

01:11:36.060 eat or drink. She was on a ventilator. We had to tube feed her. We had no nutrition to give her.

01:11:42.540 She died after four weeks. Her repairs intact, she died because she had no nutrition.

01:11:49.880 Because the hospital had nothing to give her? 0.96

01:11:51.400 We had no nutrition to give her. We had no nutrition to give any patients at all, Tucker.

01:11:55.560 No nutrition.

01:11:55.940 Where was the rest of the world?

01:11:57.740 Well, I mean, this is something we've called out repeatedly, very publicly. It's something

01:12:02.540 I've told my government about, that there is a total blockade. At that time, a total blockade

01:12:08.960 which lasted about five or six months of any aid going into Gaza. From March the 18th, 2025,

01:12:18.920 when the Israeli broke that ceasefire, I was there in June, July. There was a complete blockade,

01:12:24.840 no food going in. I saw members, friends of mine, surgeons I'd been known for years.

01:12:30.240 One guy, I didn't recognize him

01:12:31.680 because he lost 40 kilograms in weight.

01:12:34.120 We all lost, I lost eight kilograms in a month there

01:12:37.260 because we had no very little food to eat.

01:12:39.560 So the malnutrition, the starvation was appalling.

01:12:44.640 And those commentators who claim

01:12:47.580 there was enough food going in

01:12:49.380 are being profoundly dishonest in saying that.

01:12:52.940 But I mean, what was the

01:12:54.180 Gaza Humanitarian Foundation doing then?

01:12:57.080 Well, they were going on television

01:12:58.500 bragging about how Johnny Moore

01:13:00.060 was telling everybody

01:13:00.840 that they were saving

01:13:01.580 the people of Gaza. 1.00

01:13:02.280 Well, they weren't at all.

01:13:03.620 I mean, so prior to that,

01:13:07.960 UNRWA was distributing food.

01:13:09.460 They were, of course,

01:13:10.060 stopped by the Israelis.

01:13:12.900 They were distributing food

01:13:14.160 through over 400 food

01:13:15.580 distribution points.

01:13:16.720 And within the limitations

01:13:18.580 of what food was getting into Gaza,

01:13:20.840 they were distributing it

01:13:21.940 as well as they could.

01:13:23.220 They were stopped completely.

01:13:24.820 They were replaced

01:13:25.520 by the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation,

01:13:27.560 which had four food distribution points now i didn't go to them because i wasn't able to because

01:13:33.100 i was in the hospitals it was too dangerous to leave the hospitals you know i was in nasa hospital

01:13:37.960 where at one point the israeli military were 200 meters away we couldn't go out at all the only

01:13:43.820 safe place we or the the least dangerous place was to stay in the hospital so but what i did see

01:13:50.720 were the victims who had been shot

01:13:54.520 at those Gaza Humanitarian Foundation

01:13:56.920 food distribution sites.

01:13:58.800 You personally saw them?

01:13:59.960 I operated on many of them.

01:14:02.680 And I also had Gazan colleagues,

01:14:05.900 Gazan healthcare workers,

01:14:07.220 who used to go out to the food distribution points,

01:14:10.180 the GHF sites, to get food.

01:14:12.280 And they were all describing

01:14:14.500 these food distribution sites as death traps.

01:14:17.900 and the first inkling i had that um that that something horrible was going on there was

01:14:26.060 i think on something like my fourth day there my last trip um um i was called to the operating

01:14:34.140 theater by one of my guards and surgical colleagues who he had a 12 year old boy on the operating

01:14:39.740 table and he'd been shot it had gone through his aorta he was dying he was bleeding they couldn't

01:14:45.900 stop the bleeding so they asked for my help i went in there i couldn't stop it either by which

01:14:51.320 time he'd his clotting had all gone wrong this happens in severe injuries so he was bleeding

01:14:57.260 out from there when he died on the operating table under our hands awful 12 years old 12 year old

01:15:03.040 and his family told us he'd come with him that he had been sent by that these these are all

01:15:11.580 starving they're all very weak so the the young teenage boys are the ones who are sent out because

01:15:17.000 they're the strongest to get the food and he'd been shot by an israeli soldier there

01:15:21.660 and they'd witnessed this well i i can't speculate any better than anyone else as to why this is

01:15:27.960 happening what i can do is i can document what i saw and i can document what i heard from

01:15:35.140 and it was a similar story from all the victims families from those that survived from the

01:15:41.340 victims themselves from guards and healthcare workers who went to these food sites in order to

01:15:47.660 get food for their families. They all described the same things, how these young teenage boys

01:15:53.500 were being shot by Israeli soldiers. So that 12-year-old was shot. And then I started hearing

01:15:58.220 from many others. And a friend of mine who worked in the emergency room at Nasser Hospital,

01:16:04.900 one of the people I was telling about earlier who had the previous year been incarcerated

01:16:09.460 incarcerated in an Israeli prison for 60 days and being tortured daily. He'd recovered. He was

01:16:15.740 now working. And he told me how they had noticed in the ER how there were different body parts

01:16:24.200 being targeted on different days at the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation food distribution point.

01:16:30.580 So one day, he said, and other emergency room doctors and nurses I knew corroborated this,

01:16:38.220 that 19 young teenage boys had all come in in one day,

01:16:42.800 all of whom had been shot in the head and neck.

01:16:46.200 Nowhere else, just the head and neck.

01:16:48.060 Another day, they came in predominantly with chest injuries.

01:16:51.200 Another day, they came in predominantly with abdominal gunshot wounds.

01:16:54.840 And we noticed this.

01:16:56.320 I started speaking to my fellow surgeons in the operating theatres,

01:17:00.580 and we all noticed this pattern as well.

01:17:02.580 Well, on one day, the Saturday before I left Nassau Hospital to come home to England, four young teenage boys were brought in, all of whom had been shot in the testicles, just the testicles, nowhere else.

01:17:17.340 And the pattern of injuries that we all witnessed was so striking that it was clearly beyond coincidental.

01:17:29.380 And it seemed to us like there was a game of target practice.

01:17:32.580 And these were all children who'd been shot,

01:17:35.660 Palestinians who'd been shot

01:17:36.840 at Gaza Humanitarian Foundation

01:17:38.900 food distribution sites.

01:17:40.060 Absolutely.

01:17:40.420 And I operate on a lot of them.

01:17:41.680 I operate on a lot of them with abdominal injuries.

01:17:42.960 How can you, okay, so if you're,

01:17:44.400 let's say you're in the business of distributing,

01:17:46.440 not the business,

01:17:47.160 you have the ministry to distribute food to the starving. 0.97

01:17:51.460 Not to Hamas militants,

01:17:53.000 but just to families, children, women, the elderly.

01:17:56.720 And people start getting shot

01:17:58.680 at your distribution sites.

01:18:00.140 Don't you do something about that?

01:18:02.580 how could the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation

01:18:05.620 day after day allow starving people

01:18:09.500 to be shot at their distribution sites? 0.51

01:18:13.080 Your guess is as good as mine, Tucker.

01:18:15.020 But just try to put yourself in their position.

01:18:16.560 Wouldn't you say, well, wait a second,

01:18:17.720 we can't have this.

01:18:19.280 Wouldn't you say that?

01:18:20.300 Yes, I would.

01:18:21.100 So I, the description I got

01:18:27.120 from many of my colleagues who went to them

01:18:28.760 was that the food would all be laid out in a compound.

01:18:32.580 and the gate would be locked, and there'd be enough food.

01:18:37.420 Again, I kept this description from many of my friends and colleagues.

01:18:41.160 These are people who'd been working intense shifts in the hospital for 24 hours.

01:18:46.480 Then, before they went home, they had to go and get food for their family starving.

01:18:50.160 So there'd be this food in a compound,

01:18:52.180 and there'd be enough food for, say, 200 people in this compound.

01:18:55.860 There'd be a narrow gate locked with everyone crowding outside.

01:18:59.760 They would wait until there were four, five, six hundred people queuing up outside,

01:19:05.000 i.e. far more people than there was food allocated for.

01:19:09.340 And then they'd open this narrow gate to get in,

01:19:13.760 and there'd be utter chaos and fighting to try and get that food.

01:19:19.080 And that was when they were being picked out, apparently.

01:19:22.140 Shot in the pen.

01:19:23.300 They were being shot trying to get in and shot in the pen by surrounding soldiers. 0.99

01:19:27.440 Unarmed people.

01:19:28.280 Unarmed people.

01:19:29.760 Again, I stress this is what's been described to me on multiple occasions.

01:19:34.660 And not just by you.

01:19:35.360 I mean, we interviewed Tony Aguilar, who was one of the American contractors hired to provide security for these sites, who described the same thing.

01:19:42.900 And he watched his life overturned as he was slandered by Netanyahu's many defenders in our media, paid liars by Johnny Moore, who ran it, who's now affiliated with Liberty University in Lynchburg, Virginia.

01:19:55.620 And I do hope that the people who run Liberty will sit Mr. Moore down and ask him to respond to what you've just said because you're describing a war crime, one of the most immoral, disgusting scenes I can imagine, which he oversaw.

01:20:09.220 And so you hate to think that someone like that could be rewarded by Liberty University in Lynchburg, Virginia after participating in that.

01:20:16.800 So I just want this on the record.

01:20:18.460 Not that it, I guess, probably matters.

01:20:20.040 No one will pay any attention because no one has so far.

01:20:21.880 But that's really upsetting.

01:20:23.800 so the children the boys shot in the genitals i have to even ask but is that of something that

01:20:32.460 can be fixed yeah i mean they weren't my patients because i'm not a urologist but i remember when

01:20:37.020 they came in because i was in the operating theater complex at nass operating on people

01:20:41.480 with gunshot wounds the abdomen and my close friends who are urologists had this succession

01:20:47.040 of boys being brought in who they were operating on so i didn't i wasn't involved in their care

01:20:53.060 I didn't follow them up afterwards, 0.99

01:20:55.020 but I can verify they were shot exclusively in the testicles. 0.99

01:20:59.780 Oh, come on. 0.98

01:21:02.740 And there were, I mean, I remember that same day.

01:21:06.020 On many of the days we got young boys being brought in from the GHF sites,

01:21:11.680 one of the GHF sites was in Al-Mawasi,

01:21:14.760 and there were a lot of tents down there as well,

01:21:19.140 and we saw a lot of injuries from quadcopter drones.

01:21:22.420 These are remotely controlled fixed-wing drones which hover.

01:21:26.700 They have guns on them, they have cameras on them,

01:21:30.220 and they're flown all over the place in Gaza.

01:21:32.320 We saw many people shot by them.

01:21:34.620 They were flown into hospitals.

01:21:36.200 One of my friends was shot in the chest in the operating theatres at Nassau.

01:21:41.040 Not when I was there, it was before I was there.

01:21:43.380 A quadcopter was remotely controlled,

01:21:45.560 presumably by someone in Tel Aviv or somewhere,

01:21:47.860 flown into the hospital,

01:21:49.740 shot him in the chest when he was in the operating theatre.

01:21:52.420 He's in the operating room?

01:21:53.660 He's in the operating room, early in the morning,

01:21:56.180 preparing the operating theater for an imminent operation

01:21:59.780 when this quadcopter shoots him in the chest.

01:22:04.100 He survived.

01:22:04.960 I was with him a few weeks later than that. 1.00

01:22:08.500 Indoors?

01:22:09.280 Indoors, indoors.

01:22:10.280 I also saw victims, young women who had been shot

01:22:14.180 whilst in their tents in Al-Mawasi,

01:22:17.340 um quadcopters hovering over the tents spraying bullets indiscriminately onto the tent so i had

01:22:27.160 one woman who was three months pregnant who came in with a gunshot we never know i operated on we

01:22:33.520 saved her life the baby survived as well but the bullet had missed her pregnant uterus by about

01:22:38.220 two or three centimeters so we saw examples like that of these quadcopters spraying bullets

01:22:45.200 onto all the inhabitants of these tents.

01:22:48.560 But, I mean, the quadcopters are controlled by remote

01:22:50.920 by someone who can see what they're shooting at.

01:22:55.020 Yes.

01:22:55.620 I mean, there's a lot of speculation

01:22:57.680 that a lot of them are being driven remotely

01:23:00.700 using artificial intelligence.

01:23:02.820 That's not speculation.

01:23:04.040 Yeah, to help the targeting.

01:23:06.760 But absolutely, they were being controlled somehow

01:23:09.420 and going into hospitals,

01:23:12.080 spraying the tents in Al Mawasi.

01:23:15.660 We saw many examples of that.

01:23:17.960 I saw them on my first trip

01:23:19.300 in December 2023.

01:23:22.460 We saw in Al Aqsa,

01:23:24.180 we had victims coming in

01:23:25.660 from quadcopter shooting.

01:23:26.720 What did you think of all of this?

01:23:28.580 I was, you know,

01:23:30.200 I was really skeptical

01:23:31.300 when I was told on that first trip

01:23:33.580 that these were quadcopter.

01:23:35.000 I didn't see any quadcopter.

01:23:36.060 We heard, you hear the drones

01:23:37.120 the whole time.

01:23:38.260 I could not believe

01:23:39.660 what I was hearing.

01:23:40.860 I didn't believe a lot of it early on, to be honest with you, Saka.

01:23:44.300 I was naive.

01:23:47.160 I assumed this was just one that was propaganda.

01:23:52.280 But I saw so much on all these trips.

01:23:56.660 I saw so much clear evidence of children and women being targeted that I believe all of it.

01:24:03.540 i mean much more than the average person you spent your life around

01:24:09.440 death and suffering and human drama i mean you're a cancer surgeon

01:24:13.680 so presumably you've got a higher tolerance for this than most people i mean obviously you do

01:24:18.420 but what effect did it have on you seeing this you do get you're absolutely right and i think

01:24:25.380 working with cancer i've had patients you know die of their disease for decades of course get

01:24:30.220 you know i've always been a doctor who who i i i valued intensely the relationship i have with

01:24:39.280 my patients the and and there is you always have an emotional involvement you you learn to

01:24:44.320 control that but of course you get emotionally involved with your patients because you care

01:24:48.580 about them deeply so yes i am conditioned to deal with that and i think doctors nurses healthcare

01:24:53.860 workers are conditioned to deal with these things. And when we're operating on these

01:25:01.100 appalling situations, these children, when you have children dying under your hands on

01:25:07.780 the operating table, you deal with it there and then you get on with it. But the aftermath

01:25:14.340 later that night and when you get back to England is awful. And I learned, we all learned

01:25:23.080 a lot how to deal with the emotional turmoil we all experienced and we shared a lot we talked a

01:25:32.020 lot late at night in the you know on on the on the fourth floor of nasa hospital incidentally

01:25:39.340 where the the most recent big massive bombing of the israeli military on nasa hospital was on the

01:25:45.380 fourth floor which is they claimed coming back to one of your earlier questions they claimed that

01:25:49.660 was where Hamas militants were masquerading as journalists, in fact. And it was not a clinical

01:25:55.420 area. In fact, the fourth floor is where we were living. It's where the intensive care unit was.

01:25:59.580 It's where the operating theatre complex was. It was yet another clinical area being targeted by

01:26:04.340 the Israeli military. But coming back to what you asked me about, we would, at the end of the day,

01:26:09.620 whether it was at 10 o'clock, midnight, two in the morning, we would talk and share the awful

01:26:14.240 things we'd seen. And that was very therapeutic. It was really cathartic, talking to each other

01:26:20.200 and sharing. Were these mostly Western doctors? No, no. I mean, yeah, there were a few Western

01:26:25.460 doctors, but a lot of Garzan doctors as well. So we'd all congregate. And, you know, I was meeting

01:26:30.300 up with people, some people I'd known for years. But it was a mixture of Garzan and Western doctors,

01:26:37.360 all just sharing these appalling things. And that was, to an extent, cathartic. It was very

01:26:44.140 therapeutic but it lingers with you and you know and i can very openly say that all of us who've

01:26:51.260 been out there have been affected deeply emotionally but but i want everyone to realize

01:26:56.780 you know we're there for two three four weeks at a time our guards and colleagues and they're there

01:27:02.460 they've been seeing this day in day out for two and a half years so whatever we have witnessed

01:27:07.120 and seen they've seen far more worse and the the the psychological trauma the the the mental health 1.00

01:27:13.580 damage is incalculable amongst all the ghazan people but you get back to the uk and almost 0.99

01:27:20.840 not entirely but almost your entire media is conspiring to hide the truth of what's happening 1.00

01:27:27.380 in gaza and attacking anyone who calls attention to it how do you feel about that um profound anger

01:27:37.140 I mean, you have a real, a very complex set of emotions when you leave Gaza having had a trip like this.

01:27:45.460 You feel guilty that you're getting out and they can't get out.

01:27:48.840 You feel immense sadness that you're leaving friends who you know may be killed.

01:27:55.340 All my friends out there tell me, and they've said this repeatedly, they expect to be killed out there.

01:28:00.800 You're leaving patients who probably won't survive.

01:28:03.200 and you but you feel this incredible anger towards your government towards our government our media

01:28:11.300 and i i've you know the the media is not particularly interested in listening to what

01:28:16.420 we say now but but they were to to a degree then and particularly once we've just come out um so

01:28:24.320 So I did a lot of media stuff, and they were individual journalists.

01:28:33.680 There were some wonderful journalists I've met and shared my experience with

01:28:38.340 who've been desperately trying to get their media outlets to show this.

01:28:44.300 You know, the BBC, I mean, the BBC, I think, as a corporation,

01:28:48.780 has behaved appallingly over the last two and a half years.

01:28:51.120 I think that's fair to say, yes.

01:28:52.220 Yeah. But that doesn't, you know, there have been some wonderful BBC journalists who I know who've been desperately trying to get this out and have been thwarted. Some of them have ended up resigning because they've been so appalled. But there are many really worthy, passionate journalists who want to get the information out there, but they're being controlled and not being allowed to by their senior editorial boards. So it's been hugely frustrating, hugely frustrating.

01:29:19.200 There are also people who've defended it flat out. Certainly here in the United States, there are many people in our media who basically just attack anyone who points out what's happening and slander them as haters and Nazis. What do you think of that?

01:29:34.560 I think it's, I mean, it's profoundly dishonest. So I think a lot about why people are denying this and why they're not allowing it to get out. I think there's, certainly in my country, there's a lot of cowardice, a huge amount of cowardice, both in the media.

01:29:54.340 I talk a lot about how our institutions in the UK have failed Gaza,

01:29:59.500 our academic institutions, our medical institutions,

01:30:03.700 our associations, our royal colleges.

01:30:05.620 They've all been silent.

01:30:08.200 And our media clearly as well.

01:30:09.940 So I think at one level there's a lot of cowardice.

01:30:12.040 They're petrified they're going to be accused of being anti-Semitic.

01:30:15.840 And the appalling crime of anti-Semitism has been terribly weaponized

01:30:21.540 as a result of what's going on.

01:30:24.220 And people are petrified

01:30:25.900 that if they do come out and say these things,

01:30:30.020 they will be accused publicly of being anti-Semitic.

01:30:32.920 And of course, that label lasts, doesn't it?

01:30:35.540 Oh, yeah.

01:30:36.120 You can't have a job.

01:30:37.820 Yeah, exactly.

01:30:38.400 So it's very difficult for them.

01:30:39.540 I think, but I think it's not,

01:30:42.780 there are many examples

01:30:44.120 and it's much more malign than that.

01:30:45.580 I think there are clear agendas

01:30:47.820 to try and shut this all up

01:30:51.840 so that the truth doesn't get out.

01:30:54.920 And I, you know, I mean, it's public knowledge.

01:30:57.360 Many of our senior politicians are funded.

01:31:02.280 A lot of their campaigns have been funded

01:31:04.120 by various lobbies with money from Israel.

01:31:11.660 I think all of your politicians.

01:31:12.940 All of us.

01:31:13.420 I mean, I think it's out there in public knowledge.

01:31:15.100 I think you can look at the individual,

01:31:17.000 every single one of them has been.

01:31:18.800 In all three major parties?

01:31:21.900 Yes, I suppose it's been two of the major parties.

01:31:23.920 But yeah, in reform, Labour, and Conservatives.

01:31:26.120 I'm counting reform as a major party now.

01:31:27.960 Absolutely, you're absolutely right.

01:31:29.760 They have been, and that's all public knowledge.

01:31:31.880 And I think that they, I mean, there's a wonderful,

01:31:35.040 I don't know if you've read the book

01:31:35.900 called Complicit by Peter Oborn.

01:31:39.600 He's a well-known British journalist

01:31:42.160 who's written a book called,

01:31:43.200 I'd really urge everyone to read it.

01:31:45.420 It's about the way that the UK media and the government has been complicit in this genocide in Gaza.

01:31:51.700 And it lays bare all these things about how compromised our politicians are, how compromised our institutions are, how compromised our media is.

01:32:00.600 I'll never forget maybe 10 years ago, you had this head of the Labour Party who was, you know, an old leftist, old kind of pro-Soviet leftist.

01:32:09.100 I didn't have much in common with him.

01:32:10.440 I never really thought about him.

01:32:11.560 um but the one issue on which he was kind of different from you know the people who paid

01:32:19.980 for the party was on israel he was skeptical of british support for the state of israel

01:32:28.040 and i've never seen a man slandered like he was slandered again it's not my role to defend him

01:32:34.120 i'm not british and i'm not you know an old leftist but that guy was basically driven out

01:32:39.020 a public life. And after that happened, the Labour Party just kind of swung into alignment with

01:32:45.580 the Conservatives and with reform. And basically the entire British political establishment is on

01:32:51.060 the same page. Don't talk about Gaza. Israel's our closest ally. Shut up, Nazi. Am I imagining this? 0.99

01:32:57.080 No, you're portraying it exactly as it was. And I'm not a politician. I've got no political agenda.

01:33:04.840 My role, I believe, is to bear witness to what I've seen out there.

01:33:09.220 But it seems very, very clear to me that the weaponization of anti-Semitism is rife through our society.

01:33:22.660 And it's being used to shut people up.

01:33:27.180 I've got to know Jeremy Corbyn quite well in the last two or three years.

01:33:30.180 I've shared platforms with him.

01:33:31.260 I was referring to Jeremy Corbyn.

01:33:32.360 Yeah, yeah. And having spoken, I don't believe there's an anti-Semitic cell in his body. I think he is passionately supportive of the Palestinians, and that is what his motivation has been. He tried to pass a bill through Parliament to get a tribunal to investigate what's being done, and it was clearly turned down.

01:33:52.000 He ran his own independent tribunal, to which I contributed my evidence as well.

01:33:57.580 But there was evidence from a whole host of people.

01:33:59.520 It's a publication worth looking at.

01:34:02.460 And it speaks volumes about the people who have witnessed what's going on out in Gaza

01:34:10.100 and are desperate to get the truth out there, what's really going on,

01:34:15.720 and describing how the attempts to shut them down have been unacceptable.

01:34:21.760 Well, so I think it's, the only reason I bring this up, British politics is obviously not my world at all.

01:34:26.240 I'm definitely non-partisan when it comes to British politics.

01:34:28.560 But I think at some point when it becomes clear what happened, that there was, you know, the largest ethnic cleansing attempt since the Second World War, since the Nazis, right on the edge of Europe, right across the Mediterranean from Europe, like right there, with money and support from the United States and from Britain.

01:34:51.180 And the question is going to arise, like, how did this happen?

01:34:54.320 Where are the people who are supposed to say something about it?

01:34:56.360 Like, how are they able to do this in sight of the world and the world did nothing?

01:35:00.800 And I think these are part of the answer.

01:35:03.720 Yeah, I mean, it is unfathomable how the world has allowed this to happen.

01:35:07.840 But the evidence is, I mean, I've been to the International Criminal Court on several occasions to give my evidence.

01:35:15.440 And the evidence they have is vast amount of evidence they have now.

01:35:19.380 Really?

01:35:19.680 huge amount of evidence

01:35:21.380 because they've interviewed

01:35:22.040 many many people like me

01:35:23.320 who've been out there

01:35:24.000 I can speak from my own experience

01:35:26.560 of what I've shown

01:35:27.460 to senior politicians

01:35:28.460 what I've shown to

01:35:29.360 the BBC

01:35:30.560 you know

01:35:31.620 I gave them

01:35:32.720 I spoke to BBC journalists

01:35:34.200 about my experience

01:35:35.500 with those

01:35:36.000 young teenage boys

01:35:37.460 I gave them

01:35:38.200 all the evidence

01:35:39.100 I've just shared with you

01:35:40.120 and the individual journalists

01:35:43.560 were desperate

01:35:44.320 to get it out there

01:35:45.480 desperate

01:35:46.060 but they were not allowed to

01:35:47.560 Not allowed to?

01:35:49.260 Well, I wasn't partied to the editorial discussions, but they were clearly being held back by their seniors, and they never got out there.

01:35:57.560 I mean, I've spoken about it.

01:35:59.000 On camera?

01:35:59.740 On camera.

01:36:00.780 And they never aired it?

01:36:02.880 So, no, I've spoken about it on camera.

01:36:06.340 That evidence I gave was all independent, was separate, non-public evidence.

01:36:12.680 Yes.

01:36:12.880 They were wanting to develop that into a detailed story, which they never did.

01:36:18.700 So I've only ever shared that on brief interviews on media in the UK.

01:36:23.320 That is remarkable.

01:36:24.860 But they wouldn't show it.

01:36:25.740 But I mean, there are many examples like that.

01:36:27.780 They have not been, you know, you just have to hear every single BBC reference to Gaza, to the death, to the figures of death.

01:36:38.900 They'll always talk about the Hamas-led Ministry of Health. 0.85

01:36:41.580 That is clearly a senior policy.

01:36:43.880 Whenever you mention the Ghazan Ministry of Health,

01:36:47.200 you have to say that the Hamas-led Ghazan Ministry of Health.

01:36:49.860 In order to discredit their findings.

01:36:51.240 Precisely.

01:36:53.960 I can see why you're a threat to that propaganda operation

01:36:58.000 because you're not working for Hamas, you're working for Oxford.

01:37:02.800 So you have more credibility.

01:37:05.880 So I can see why they wouldn't want to err.

01:37:07.960 Yeah, so the response is either not to show what we've said

01:37:12.840 or we get accused of, not by the BBC, but other agencies of lying or...

01:37:19.820 Have you been accused of lying?

01:37:21.280 Multiple times, yeah.

01:37:23.900 What would your motive be for lying?

01:37:25.960 No motive at all.

01:37:27.220 And I'm at pains to point out repeatedly that I'm a humanitarian.

01:37:34.040 I'm not a politician.

01:37:35.180 I am a humanitarian and I am reporting what I've seen with my own eyes.

01:37:40.580 I've borne witness to what I believe to be war crimes almost on a daily basis.

01:37:47.640 I've, you know, the clearest evidence I can imagine in the absence of being an international lawyer of genocide being carried out, ethnic cleansing being carried out. 0.53

01:37:58.600 It seems to me, I'm astonished that anyone can look at the evidence and not see what is going on there.

01:38:12.020 And the evidence is so clear that I think those that refuse to acknowledge it have malign intentions in suppressing that.

01:38:23.500 And it's hard not to see design in all of this.

01:38:26.220 I mean, the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism, which now has the force of law in a lot of the world, is a crime to say certain things thanks to this definition.

01:38:36.080 And in that definition, one of the examples given is any comparison between the actions of the Israeli government and the German Nazi regime of the 1930s and 40s.

01:38:46.580 it kind of seems like because that's the obvious compare of course is the obvious comparison

01:38:52.200 it kind of seems like that was a preemptive attempt to keep people from noticing the obvious

01:38:58.440 yeah i mean i'm i'm i i see the great value of my testimony describing what i'm seeing rather than

01:39:07.640 trying to make comparisons right no that's fair and i think i think that and i've seen many other

01:39:13.080 healthcare workers being there do this

01:39:15.920 with all the best of intentions,

01:39:18.020 but it dilutes the strong message I can give.

01:39:21.040 And I don't want to distract from that.

01:39:23.220 So I think the evidence I can describe

01:39:28.520 in my own eyewitness testimony

01:39:31.060 is so powerful by itself

01:39:32.940 that I'll stick to that side.

01:39:35.800 I think that's very wise and more powerful.

01:39:38.400 I agree with you.

01:39:39.820 Do you think what's happening in Gaza

01:39:41.240 is well known within Israel?

01:39:43.080 I have no idea.

01:39:45.260 I mean, it seems very difficult to believe they don't know what's going on,

01:39:52.700 but I guess we've witnessed repeatedly the propaganda

01:39:56.220 coming from Israeli spokesmen who speak to our media.

01:40:01.200 I can only imagine that it's much more extensive than that

01:40:05.740 than what's going internally.

01:40:07.280 I think that's right.

01:40:08.580 So, I mean, I remember, I don't know, about a year ago,

01:40:13.660 just as an example of the appalling propaganda,

01:40:16.400 the BBC talks repeatedly about how they have to have a balanced approach to this.

01:40:20.540 And it's a false balance.

01:40:21.600 We all know it's a false balance.

01:40:23.280 So they will give X amount of minutes to someone speaking up for what's going on in Gaza

01:40:28.420 and they'll give the same amount of time to an Israeli spokesman.

01:40:31.720 About a year ago, they interviewed my closest friend in Gaza,

01:40:35.920 who I've known for many, many, many years.

01:40:37.400 It's an inspirational doctrine.

01:40:39.280 By the way, we talk about all the horrors, the atrocities,

01:40:43.700 the sheer evil that I've seen with my own eyes.

01:40:47.620 I've also seen the very, very best of humanity,

01:40:50.960 some of the most inspirational heroes, wonderful people.

01:40:55.800 One of them is a very old friend of mine who I've known since 2010,

01:41:01.100 since my first trip.

01:41:01.800 He was interviewed.

01:41:02.800 He's a doctor in Gaza.

01:41:04.040 He was interviewed by the BBC, the Radio 4.

01:41:06.960 today program which is our sort of flagship news program in the morning um and they gave him six

01:41:13.120 seven minutes and he interviewed brilliantly um and then immediately after that they introduced

01:41:20.000 they interviewed one of the israeli spokesman called david menser who had used to work in

01:41:28.840 in i think he headed up uk uh labor friends of israel or something but anyway he was interviewed

01:41:34.520 And he started off by saying, well, it's important your listeners understand that we know that man who you just interviewed is not a proper doctor.

01:41:42.260 We know he is a senior commander in the Hamas military and that you cannot accept anything of what he said for the truth.

01:41:52.880 Now, I'm not talking about my opinion here. 0.76

01:41:56.060 I'm talking about what are clear facts.

01:41:58.100 I know this man.

01:41:58.900 I've known him for 16 years.

01:42:01.900 He's an inspirational doctor.

01:42:04.520 What this man, David Mensah, was saying were clear lies and deliberate lies.

01:42:10.700 So I contacted the BBC through some of my contacts

01:42:13.500 and got through to the editorial boards, David, and said,

01:42:16.100 listen, you've knowingly allowed this man to speak lies.

01:42:23.460 These are not different of opinions.

01:42:25.840 These are out-and-out lies.

01:42:27.360 You need to give me the right to reply to speak up for this man

01:42:31.160 who's been maligned on this.

01:42:33.180 And they debated it, but they didn't let me have any right away.

01:42:37.260 And their argument was, we feel they've had a balance.

01:42:40.120 They both had seven minutes, and that was a balance.

01:42:42.240 And of course, that's their stock answer, which is a false balance.

01:42:46.240 It's not giving equal exposure.

01:42:49.020 It's got to be so frustrating to live in a country like that.

01:42:52.180 Appalling.

01:42:53.440 Are there any politicians in the UK that you think are open to doing something about this?

01:43:00.080 Most certainly.

01:43:00.820 I've met many.

01:43:01.420 And again, it's like the journalists.

01:43:02.840 I've met many great journalists who want to.

01:43:05.700 I've met many backbench MPs who were appalled by this.

01:43:09.420 The Green Party, I've not met Zach Polanski,

01:43:13.680 but he's spoken out at length.

01:43:15.500 I've spoken at length to Jeremy Corbyn, Zahra Sultana.

01:43:19.380 Many backbench MPs in the Labour Party.

01:43:22.300 The SNP party in Scotland has been brilliant in speaking up.

01:43:27.200 The Lib Dems have had people.

01:43:29.140 There have even been one or two Tory backbenchers

01:43:30.840 benches who've been very very outspoken and very supportive so there are many people there and

01:43:36.220 they are all waking up they have all woken up the we've had some incredible marches in the uk

01:43:44.500 you'll see pictures of them you know getting on for a million people sometimes marching

01:43:48.840 in london in support of gaza they're not hate marches as we're being told by reform and

01:43:54.300 the conservatives and our right-wing media these are p i've been on many of them with my wife

01:44:00.140 my daughter who are avid marchers

01:44:02.840 they're peace

01:44:04.740 marchers, they're supporting

01:44:05.800 the Ghazan people who are being 1.00

01:44:08.680 ethnically cleansed

01:44:09.780 who are undergoing 0.73

01:44:12.860 a genocide

01:44:13.480 but that has had an impact

01:44:16.700 there is a huge

01:44:19.060 pressure being exerted by the people

01:44:21.020 who've woken up to what's

01:44:23.060 going on via going

01:44:24.860 to their MPs and

01:44:26.760 they are having an impact, I mean it's nothing

01:44:28.980 like enough. And of course, it's far too late. But there are a lot of backbench MPs who I think

01:44:36.120 are appalled. It's interesting, though, you say it's the right wing media in the UK that's

01:44:41.100 supportive of Netanyahu's ethnic cleansing in Gaza. In the United States, it's kind of the

01:44:48.240 opposite. It's a lot of former Trump voters who are maddest about what's happening in Gaza. I mean,

01:44:56.140 there's no reason any nationalist should support what's happening in gaza how is that good for the

01:45:03.200 uk how is that good for the united states why do you think conservative media and politicians in

01:45:09.360 the uk have been roped into supporting something that's terrible for the uk i i mean i i don't know

01:45:16.740 the answer to that and i guess it's it's we'd include i mean i think our mainstream parties

01:45:22.520 are all like that now.

01:45:23.460 And I think the media supporting

01:45:25.280 the mainstream parties,

01:45:26.680 there's very few media outlets in the UK

01:45:28.800 which are supportive of what's going on in Gaza.

01:45:31.100 So it's perhaps not just the right wing,

01:45:32.580 but I think they are the most vocal about this.

01:45:39.300 I don't know.

01:45:40.740 That's so disappointing.

01:45:41.980 It is.

01:45:42.420 I think the book I mentioned,

01:45:47.780 Complicit by Peter Oborn,

01:45:48.900 goes into this in a lot of detail

01:45:50.080 and it's some fascinating insights.

01:45:52.520 But it does seem to be there's a very, very vocal sort of group of commentators on the right who speak out a lot in support of Israel and are very successful in calling out those who are speaking against it.

01:46:11.800 That's so depressing.

01:46:12.980 How are you treated by the Israeli government when you transit through Israel?

01:46:17.160 Can you go there now?

01:46:18.760 I've not been able to get in the last few months.

01:46:21.180 I'm trying to go.

01:46:22.020 i'm hoping to go in in august but you never know they they've in the in the last few months they've

01:46:29.320 stopped all people the majority of people like me who have spoken out have been stopped from going

01:46:36.820 in they've now banned more than 36 ngos from taking medics into gaza msf has been um has been

01:46:47.000 banned from going in other very well-known humanitarian organizations have been banned

01:46:52.180 completely so about a year maybe more than a year ago no about a year ago the israelis announced

01:46:59.120 they were introducing a new registration process for um agencies that wanted to take in doctors to

01:47:07.020 work there and which of course is against international law because we don't have to be

01:47:14.320 we go into work in the occupied palestinian territories and our authority is given to us by

01:47:19.920 the palestinian authority but nevertheless you have to go through the israeli borders

01:47:24.600 and their registration process the the document details exclusion criteria as to what you know

01:47:36.000 what would prevent us being registered and one of them is that if any any if the organization itself

01:47:41.120 or any member of the organization or any volunteer with the organization

01:47:45.160 has at any time in the last seven years criticized the state of Israel,

01:47:49.700 that organization will be banned from working in Gaza or the West Bank.

01:47:55.020 Now, that will exclude a significant majority of the most prominent humanitarian organizations.

01:48:05.060 You probably wouldn't be there in the first place if you supported what Israel was doing, 0.66

01:48:08.360 if you were for ethnic cleansing.

01:48:09.580 So it's made it very, very difficult for humanitarian teams to get in there.

01:48:16.860 So how do hospitals in the one remaining hospital in Gaza, which, by the way, I should have asked at the outset, what do you think the population of Gaza is right now?

01:48:25.020 So it's a good question.

01:48:27.180 So the official figures from the Ministry of Health, recognized by the United Nations and indeed recognized by the Israeli military now, is about 76,000 killed by trauma alone.

01:48:41.700 The Lancet Medical Journal, which has published brilliantly.

01:48:45.140 76,000.

01:48:46.740 Just from trauma.

01:48:48.800 The Lancet Medical Journal, which has published brilliantly, estimates, because there are many thousands of people buried under the rubble, including friends of mine.

01:48:56.280 So they estimate with great authority, I think, that that has underestimated it by about 50%.

01:49:05.860 So there are probably 100,000 killed directly by trauma, but that excludes the excess deaths.

01:49:16.620 We'll remember that term from the COVID pandemic, those people dying of non-COVID-related causes like cancer or kidney disease.

01:49:24.640 In Gaza, there has been no cancer really being treated for two and a half years.

01:49:30.740 No kidney disease.

01:49:31.660 Many of the dialysis machines in Shifa Hospital were destroyed by the Israeli army when they went in there.

01:49:37.520 So there are many other, there's 350,000 people in Gaza who have chronic illnesses that require regular medical treatment, which aren't being treated.

01:49:47.060 So there are many infectious diseases, malnutrition we've talked about.

01:49:50.180 So there are many, many people dying of excess deaths. Now, the Lancet estimates, again, the Lancet estimated 18 months ago that that figure was probably about 180,000 on top of the trauma deaths. There are other estimates, and of course, these are difficult to be overly accurate, but there are some estimates that it's at least several hundred thousand. I heard one estimate saying it was over half a million excess deaths.

01:50:18.840 Now, even if you just take the first perhaps conservative Lancet figure of 186,000, when you include the trauma deaths, that's over a quarter of a million.

01:50:31.260 That is well over 10% of the population of Gaza.

01:50:34.720 And the more extreme examples are more than 20% of the population of Gaza.

01:50:39.540 So the population of Gaza on October the 6th, 2023 was about 2.2 million.

01:50:46.020 It's certainly under 2 million now.

01:50:48.840 i mean it's it's shocking

01:50:51.820 and for that whatever that number is but over a million people there's one major hospital that's

01:51:01.640 it so yeah i mean so nasa hospital is the only really major hospital still functioning but but

01:51:07.420 but it is not functioning fully i mean i was when i was there we run out of stuff the whole time i

01:51:13.300 talked about often having no pain killers to give patients um we had i had one two-week period when

01:51:20.020 we had no sterile drapes to use in the operating theater so we you know use sterile drapes to

01:51:25.780 create a sterile operating field so you can operate reducing the risk of infections we had

01:51:32.280 one two-week period when we had no sterile drapes so we had to sort of make our owns out of gowns

01:51:36.900 and you know we couldn't create proper sterile fields we had another period of time when we had

01:51:42.900 no running water in the operating theatres. So we couldn't scrub up properly. So we had to use

01:51:48.260 alcohol jelly on our hands. Oh, come on. There are occasions, and I've talked about the lack

01:51:53.500 of nutrition given to patients. We had some days when, you know, there's been no electricity in

01:51:58.980 Gaza since October the 7th. So the hospitals are totally reliant upon their own fuel sources to

01:52:06.820 keep, which they get some from the United Nations as well. But they're always under threat of running

01:52:12.220 out of fuel and there have been multiple examples when fuel has roused on the hospitals so when the

01:52:17.440 fuel runs out there is no power when there's no power the ventilators don't work so patients on

01:52:23.880 ventilators die when there's no fuel the powers for the incubators for the newborn babies can't

01:52:31.380 work so those babies die there was a an episode about 18 months ago i think an al-nassar pediatric

01:52:40.500 hospital in gaza city i think about 18 months ago when the israeli military invasion of the hospital

01:52:46.380 kicked out all the local staff and there were six neonates left in the incubators when they

01:52:54.020 were kicked out and they said you know there are six babies there and they were sure they'd be

01:52:58.260 fine the israeli military left after two or three weeks and the the the the doctors you know some

01:53:04.000 of whom i knew went back in there and those six babies were there in the incubators dead their

01:53:10.020 bodies rotting oh come on now and there are many other similar stories like that

01:53:15.860 so you know these things are happening feel that your tax dollars go to the israeli government

01:53:23.000 i'm appalled and i i'm disgusted and and and i've said this to our politicians you know we've we've

01:53:30.680 gone and spoken to them we've spoken to our prime minister a few of us spoke to him and

01:53:35.020 To Keir Starmer?

01:53:35.800 Yeah, to Keir Starmer.

01:53:36.760 And we've talked about the fact that our government is still,

01:53:43.060 they claim there's an arms embargo.

01:53:45.100 There isn't.

01:53:45.680 We're still supplying parts for the F-35 jets.

01:53:49.220 The Royal Air Force is flying reconnaissance flights from Cyprus over Gaza

01:53:54.800 on a daily basis, giving military intelligence to the Gaza. 0.51

01:53:59.020 Why?

01:53:59.520 To the Israeli military, because of the relationship we have with Israel,

01:54:03.560 because of our support for Israel.

01:54:06.020 But Israel murdered so many British diplomats

01:54:08.780 and military officers at the founding of the country. 0.82

01:54:12.480 Why would the British government owe anything to Israel, 0.97

01:54:16.500 which again was founded by murdering representatives 1.00

01:54:19.760 of the British government?

01:54:22.040 You're absolutely right.

01:54:23.060 And I don't know the answer to that.

01:54:25.080 I mean, we can all speculate, but it is bizarre.

01:54:27.760 I don't understand it.

01:54:28.860 I mean, there is the clearest evidence, in my view, that our governments are complicit in what's going on there, and they need to be held to account.

01:54:41.760 Last question, do you plan to go back?

01:54:44.060 Yes, I'm trying to get in in August.

01:54:47.060 I've applied to go in.

01:54:49.280 Many of the NGOs that I know well have been banned, so I'm trying to go in with another one at the moment.

01:54:57.020 So I hope to.

01:54:57.840 I know that because I've spoken out so much, the chance of Israel refusing me entry is very high.

01:55:05.560 But I will keep going. I will keep trying.

01:55:07.600 We're killing you once you get there. 1.00

01:55:10.240 Yeah. I mean, there's no question that being in Gaza is unbelievably dangerous. 0.98

01:55:18.060 I've been injured out there from a bomb injury.

01:55:21.320 There's no question that it's very dangerous.

01:55:23.980 but statistically there has not yet been a single foreign doctor killed there and i'm not in any way 0.71

01:55:31.840 understating the the dangers of being there and of course is a very dangerous place and of course

01:55:37.100 one you know at times you feel fear when you're out there but trying to explain what i'm speaking

01:55:44.060 on as many others would what motivates us whatever we feel at any one time one time is a complex mix

01:55:50.840 of a whole different set of emotions.

01:55:53.680 So fear is one of them.

01:55:57.140 Desire to be there helping your friends

01:55:59.300 is a very powerful incentive.

01:56:03.360 And that, to me, when I'm out there,

01:56:06.060 is by far and away the dominant emotion.

01:56:09.420 So that outweighs any fear we may have.

01:56:12.660 And that's, you know, it's not just,

01:56:14.600 a lot of us are like this.

01:56:15.740 We have this, we're so disturbed

01:56:20.540 by what's going on there we're so disturbed by how but by how much our governments are

01:56:30.300 complicit in this what is being done to the gardens is so fundamentally wrong not just in

01:56:37.700 the last two years but for decades what's being done to them is so fundamentally wrong that

01:56:43.540 that those of us who've had the great privilege

01:56:47.100 of knowing and loving the Ghazan people

01:56:50.740 for so many years and working with them

01:56:52.920 have this absolute obligation.

01:56:56.540 And I couldn't imagine doing it any other way

01:56:59.340 of having to go out there and help them.

01:57:00.940 What does your family think?

01:57:03.380 Very supportive.

01:57:04.280 My wife, Fanula, is as passionate as I am 0.93

01:57:08.400 about the Ghazans and the Palestinians. 1.00

01:57:11.180 I mentioned earlier, we have a Garzan daughter,

01:57:14.860 informally a Garzan daughter called Inas,

01:57:16.760 who we love dearly.

01:57:19.020 She's never been able to go back to Garza.

01:57:20.720 She's become a member of our family.

01:57:24.500 Our house has been, over years,

01:57:27.500 has been a bit of a refuge for Garzan medical students 1.00

01:57:30.740 and Garzan doctors who've managed to escape.

01:57:33.420 They often come and stay with us

01:57:34.600 or we fix them up with other friends for accommodation.

01:57:36.700 we've managed to take two wonderful guards and medical students into Oxford.

01:57:42.400 We've managed to get them part of our medical school now in Oxford.

01:57:45.400 So my wife, I don't think I could do all of this without Fanula's support.

01:57:50.160 And she's as heroic as any of us in supporting me in this respect.

01:57:58.100 And my kids likewise.

01:57:59.140 I mean, my daughter, I've got a daughter and two sons.

01:58:03.280 They're all very passionate.

01:58:04.060 My daughters are full-time activists most of the time, but they're all very supportive.

01:58:09.060 And, of course, before I go, I go and talk to them all individually and explain.

01:58:12.500 They know why I'm going, and I go with their complete blessing.

01:58:17.580 Godspeed.

01:58:18.080 Dr. Mirren, thank you very much.

01:58:19.660 Thank you very much for meeting me, and I've really enjoyed it.

01:58:23.220 Got me going.

01:58:29.040 If you made it through the end of that, thank you for watching.

01:58:31.780 We'll see you next Wednesday.

The Tucker Carlson Show - May 27, 2026

Doctor From Gaza Frontlines Exposes Israeli Torture Programs and Missile Attacks on Hospitals

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