The Tucker Carlson Show - Ernst Roets： Attacks on Whites in South Africa, Attempts to Hide It, and Trump’s Plan to End It

00:00:00.000 Hello, 988 Suicide Crisis Helpline.

00:00:05.700 I don't know what to say.

00:00:08.460 Well, honestly...

00:00:10.720 Sometimes I just feel...

00:00:13.000 It's okay. Take your time.

00:00:16.340 I'm here to listen.

00:00:18.320 It can be hard to find the words.

00:00:20.000 We can help. Anytime, day, or night.

00:00:22.820 Call or text 988 Suicide Crisis Helpline.

00:00:25.400 This initiative has been made possible through a financial contribution

00:00:28.300 from the Public Health Agency of Canada.

00:00:30.620 So I think for most Americans,

00:00:33.860 news about South Africa ended in 1994.

00:00:37.180 Both literally, we stopped getting a lot of news from the country,

00:00:39.960 but also people's views about it stopped evolving then.

00:00:44.540 That was the year that apartheid ended, I guess, officially.

00:00:48.940 You had elections.

00:00:50.840 Nelson Mandela is still a hero in the United States,

00:00:53.100 often referred to by politicians.

00:00:54.540 And it's only been, I think, in American media in the past couple of months

00:01:01.260 that stories have come out of South Africa that a lot of Americans have read

00:01:05.760 that actually the country seems to be falling apart

00:01:09.080 and that the government is kind of genocidally racist.

00:01:13.240 Yeah.

00:01:13.560 And then President Trump in the past month has basically said the same thing.

00:01:20.560 And it's shocking to a lot of people, I think,

00:01:22.960 how bad it is and just how racist it is,

00:01:26.160 far more than apartheid ever was.

00:01:28.180 And so I'm wondering, since you've just landed from South Africa,

00:01:51.540 you live there,

00:01:52.980 describe the state of the country right now, if you would.

00:01:55.320 Yeah, well, perhaps I can start with your reference about the 90s

00:01:59.180 because it's absolutely true.

00:02:01.400 South Africa and America was very involved with the setting up

00:02:04.360 of the political system that we have in South Africa during the 90s.

00:02:07.300 And it was, of course, the end of history era.

00:02:09.000 Everyone is excited about the fall of the Berlin Wall

00:02:11.760 and the whole world's going to be liberal and democratic,

00:02:14.520 including African countries.

00:02:16.360 Yes.

00:02:16.580 And Samuel Huntington actually cautioned against this in 1996,

00:02:20.120 saying, you know, when he wrote The Clash of Civilizations.

00:02:21.980 And he said, don't expect of African leaders

00:02:25.280 and African liberation movements to suddenly become Western

00:02:28.140 when you give them Western constitutions,

00:02:30.340 because they are still African.

00:02:31.660 So they will use, it's the democratic paradox.

00:02:34.020 They will use democratic institutions

00:02:36.000 to promote non-democratic ends.

00:02:39.560 And that's what we see in South Africa.

00:02:41.140 We have a parliament.

00:02:42.180 We have a very liberal constitution.

00:02:44.500 But if you read the constitution

00:02:46.120 and you compare that to reality in South Africa,

00:02:48.280 it's two completely different worlds.

00:02:50.280 The de facto and the de jure reality in South Africa

00:02:52.620 is irreconcilable.

00:02:55.800 And so what has been happening in South Africa

00:02:57.740 is firstly, there was this major excitement

00:03:00.300 about the new South African, Nelson Mandela,

00:03:02.620 the miracle story, you know, Oprah spoke about this

00:03:05.620 and Charlize Theron, everyone.

00:03:08.120 And, but the reality on ground level

00:03:10.560 was in many ways the opposite.

00:03:11.700 And I think a lot of-

00:03:12.920 From the beginning?

00:03:14.940 Gradually.

00:03:15.720 So they started, for example,

00:03:17.260 with these BEE, as they call it,

00:03:19.320 it's Black Economic Empowerment,

00:03:20.780 which of course has nothing to do

00:03:21.860 with economic empowerment.

00:03:23.460 They started with that in 1996.

00:03:26.660 And so they actually said initially in the 90s

00:03:29.820 that that's the ruling party's strategy.

00:03:32.220 They still call it that,

00:03:33.140 the National Democratic Revolution,

00:03:35.360 which is about using democracy

00:03:37.180 to promote socialist ends.

00:03:39.800 And so the revolution, they say,

00:03:41.700 it goes in two phases.

00:03:42.840 The first phase is present yourself

00:03:44.740 as being liberal and democratic

00:03:46.160 and get support,

00:03:47.360 especially international support and local,

00:03:49.860 and then use multi-party democracy

00:03:52.080 as a way of promoting the goals

00:03:54.880 of taking the country down the road to socialism.

00:03:57.400 And so recently they even went as far

00:03:59.040 as publishing a document saying,

00:04:00.380 we are now ready for the second phase

00:04:02.300 of the revolution.

00:04:03.080 We now have power.

00:04:04.060 We have control of the state.

00:04:05.240 We now need to use this

00:04:06.600 to become much more aggressive

00:04:08.260 in our socialist policies.

00:04:09.780 And we're seeing this

00:04:10.800 in a plethora of new laws

00:04:12.620 all of a sudden in South Africa,

00:04:14.440 which I think it's gotten to the point

00:04:16.840 where it's just not possible

00:04:19.080 to maintain the view

00:04:20.460 that people have had of South Africa

00:04:22.300 for the last few decades

00:04:23.480 and look at what's currently happening

00:04:25.500 in South Africa.

00:04:26.140 It's two completely different worlds.

00:04:28.000 And hopefully, or happily at least,

00:04:30.800 a lot of people are starting

00:04:32.040 to wake up to this.

00:04:33.320 So you said Samuel Huntington wrote that

00:04:36.200 in 1996, two years after the election.

00:04:41.500 I kind of thought that from day one

00:04:44.540 simply because I knew people there

00:04:46.960 and I was more familiar

00:04:49.540 with the details of the Mandelas.

00:04:52.040 Yes.

00:04:53.300 But I think most Americans,

00:04:54.700 I don't think, had any idea.

00:04:55.760 Like, what was Nelson Mandela

00:04:56.920 on Robin Island for?

00:04:57.740 What was he in prison for?

00:04:59.860 For being black?

00:05:01.220 Or was there another reason?

00:05:02.040 Well, literally, so I have children

00:05:04.040 and they are taught in schools

00:05:06.640 and the government prescribes

00:05:07.780 what children should learn in history.

00:05:10.580 And so the official version is

00:05:12.400 he went to prison

00:05:13.080 because he was a good leader

00:05:14.280 and the government didn't like that.

00:05:16.680 I should say that he certainly was

00:05:18.440 the best that the ANC

00:05:19.520 has ever had to offer.

00:05:20.940 Yes.

00:05:21.120 But the reason why he went to prison

00:05:22.640 is because they started

00:05:24.780 Mkwantui Sizwe,

00:05:25.880 which was the military wing of the ANC,

00:05:28.480 which became involved

00:05:30.080 with military actions in South Africa

00:05:32.160 with an attempt to overthrow the government.

00:05:34.960 And they actually,

00:05:35.540 and this is,

00:05:36.140 I'm quoting from the ANC's own policy documents

00:05:39.020 that's on their own website.

00:05:40.420 So they had this operation

00:05:41.640 when they started,

00:05:42.460 which was used in the Rivonia trial

00:05:44.100 against Nelson Mandela.

00:05:45.960 It was a strategy called

00:05:47.860 Operation Mahi Bouye.

00:05:49.180 And the slogan of this operation was

00:05:52.200 shamelessly we shall attack the weak

00:05:54.420 and shamelessly we shall flee from the strong.

00:05:57.480 So those were the circumstances

00:05:59.120 in the 1960s.

00:06:01.500 Pretty noble policy statement there.

00:06:03.700 We'll attack the weak

00:06:04.540 and flee from the strong.

00:06:05.340 Yeah.

00:06:05.600 And it's still on their website.

00:06:06.720 You can find it there.

00:06:08.180 So that was the,

00:06:09.120 it was an attempt at an armed uprising.

00:06:11.260 Now we can talk about

00:06:12.060 everything that was wrong

00:06:13.440 with the previous political system

00:06:14.940 in South Africa.

00:06:16.000 And there was a lot wrong,

00:06:16.780 but it's simply not the case

00:06:19.760 that he went to prison

00:06:20.640 for being a good leader.

00:06:22.560 Well, I think that most people

00:06:24.540 would acknowledge a distinction

00:06:25.660 between military action,

00:06:27.340 which is, you know,

00:06:28.220 a fight, a war, a battle

00:06:31.000 between militaries

00:06:33.500 and attacks on civilians,

00:06:35.500 which is something we call terrorism.

00:06:38.000 Yes.

00:06:38.720 So in 1985,

00:06:41.240 the ANC had a conference

00:06:42.820 in Kabwe in Zambia

00:06:44.320 and they took a formal decision.

00:06:47.280 That in their so-called

00:06:48.820 military operations,

00:06:49.700 they would not differentiate

00:06:50.840 between hard and soft targets.

00:06:52.900 So it was officially a policy

00:06:54.340 that says we can kill innocent people.

00:06:56.640 And a lot of innocent people died

00:06:58.240 in the political violence

00:06:59.440 in the run-up to 1994.

00:07:01.760 And 90% of the people who died

00:07:03.520 were black South Africans.

00:07:05.440 It was...

00:07:06.340 But non-combatants,

00:07:07.120 women, children.

00:07:07.740 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:07:08.280 Women and children.

00:07:08.860 Passers-by, you know,

00:07:09.880 people had nothing to do with anything.

00:07:11.100 Yes, yes, especially.

00:07:13.120 And so during that time

00:07:15.660 that Mandela was in prison,

00:07:17.100 I'm 55,

00:07:17.700 so I remember this very, very well,

00:07:19.160 his wife was effectively

00:07:20.280 his spokesman,

00:07:21.080 Winnie Mandela.

00:07:21.840 Yeah.

00:07:22.280 And she was lionized

00:07:23.540 in the United States.

00:07:24.060 She was a hero.

00:07:24.700 She was the mother

00:07:25.160 of an emerging nation,

00:07:27.520 you know,

00:07:27.860 a woman of peace

00:07:29.160 and decency,

00:07:30.200 really a transcendent figure,

00:07:31.260 a holy figure.

00:07:31.800 And then it turned out

00:07:34.020 that actually she was a murderer

00:07:35.040 who had, you know,

00:07:38.100 burned to death

00:07:39.000 or supervised the murder

00:07:40.260 of a bunch of different people.

00:07:41.460 Tell us about that.

00:07:42.480 Yes, so let me firstly say

00:07:44.000 that I have a lot of respect

00:07:44.880 for Nelson Mandela.

00:07:45.840 I think in terms of his efforts

00:07:47.820 and as I say,

00:07:49.420 I think he's the best

00:07:50.680 the ANC has ever had to offer.

00:07:52.900 Winnie Mandela,

00:07:53.560 his wife,

00:07:54.260 not so much.

00:07:55.180 So she famously,

00:07:56.260 I mean,

00:07:56.520 she's been involved

00:07:57.160 with a lot of things,

00:07:58.140 including what was called

00:08:00.060 the Mandela Football Club.

00:08:02.180 Yes.

00:08:02.540 Which was a gang

00:08:03.740 that was involved

00:08:04.380 with violence

00:08:04.940 and killings

00:08:06.340 of innocent people.

00:08:07.200 And she famously said

00:08:08.800 at a political rally

00:08:10.540 with our necklaces

00:08:12.080 and our matches,

00:08:13.080 we will liberate this country.

00:08:14.620 Yes.

00:08:14.880 Which of course

00:08:15.340 is a reference

00:08:15.920 to the necklace murders,

00:08:17.180 which was very popular

00:08:18.040 in South Africa

00:08:18.680 and still happens

00:08:19.460 in South Africa.

00:08:20.720 That's when you take

00:08:21.520 a rubber tire,

00:08:23.140 you fill it with petrol

00:08:24.060 or gasoline

00:08:25.340 and you put it

00:08:26.500 around someone's neck

00:08:27.680 so that it's bound

00:08:28.840 around their arms

00:08:29.560 and you set it on fire

00:08:30.600 and then you stone

00:08:31.900 that person

00:08:32.480 while he's burning to death.

00:08:34.220 And that happened.

00:08:34.840 There were,

00:08:35.280 I think,

00:08:35.580 500 or 700 people

00:08:36.740 were killed like that

00:08:37.680 during political violence

00:08:39.060 in South Africa

00:08:39.560 and she encouraged this.

00:08:41.260 Initially,

00:08:41.780 she denied it

00:08:42.420 and then it came out

00:08:43.060 that it was recorded

00:08:43.780 of her saying this.

00:08:46.140 So yes,

00:08:46.960 it's very bizarre

00:08:48.720 that someone like

00:08:49.560 Winnie Mandela

00:08:50.080 is a hero today.

00:08:51.500 And was a hero then.

00:08:52.940 And so that,

00:08:53.860 to me,

00:08:54.320 was a sign

00:08:54.980 that these are,

00:08:56.140 these are not,

00:08:57.480 you know,

00:08:57.780 liberators,

00:08:58.260 that they're oppressors.

00:08:59.660 Yeah.

00:08:59.980 Yeah.

00:09:00.480 And so,

00:09:01.460 but no one in the West

00:09:02.640 wanted to think that.

00:09:03.600 It was like a really simple tale

00:09:04.880 of white oppression,

00:09:05.960 of noble black people

00:09:06.900 and by definition,

00:09:08.920 the black people.

00:09:09.400 I mean,

00:09:10.060 there were oppressed black people,

00:09:11.160 of course.

00:09:13.100 And there were noble black people,

00:09:14.440 but the leadership

00:09:15.100 always struck me as evil.

00:09:16.280 Yes.

00:09:17.440 So there were some better

00:09:18.960 and some worse people

00:09:19.940 in the leadership.

00:09:21.240 I think an important component here

00:09:23.620 that is very well documented,

00:09:25.200 it's not a secret,

00:09:26.140 but a lot of people

00:09:26.700 don't seem to want to know this

00:09:28.380 or recognize this,

00:09:29.720 is the very strong alliance

00:09:31.300 that the ANC has always had

00:09:33.060 and still has

00:09:33.720 with the South African Communist Party

00:09:35.340 and the extent

00:09:36.520 to which they were supported,

00:09:38.500 not just by the Soviet Union,

00:09:40.380 also by the Vietnamese

00:09:41.500 and by Mao Tse-Tung as well,

00:09:44.160 implementing what they call

00:09:45.740 the People's War strategy

00:09:46.880 that they got from Mao Tse-Tung.

00:09:49.720 So yes,

00:09:50.060 it was very much,

00:09:50.920 the ANC saw themselves

00:09:52.340 as being the African

00:09:53.940 or South African frontier

00:09:55.880 of promoting a socialist

00:09:57.880 or communist revolution.

00:10:00.560 So how did it turn out?

00:10:04.080 Well,

00:10:04.860 you mean in terms of

00:10:06.060 where we are today?

00:10:07.280 Let's just follow different threads.

00:10:10.280 So let's just start with,

00:10:11.680 I don't know,

00:10:12.220 technology and infrastructure.

00:10:13.880 What did,

00:10:14.340 in 1993,

00:10:16.180 South Africa was famously

00:10:17.540 the most prosperous society

00:10:20.200 in Africa by far,

00:10:21.560 right?

00:10:22.960 Among the most prosperous

00:10:23.940 in the world,

00:10:24.600 correct?

00:10:25.040 They had nuclear weapons

00:10:25.900 in South Africa.

00:10:26.520 Yes.

00:10:26.740 Yeah.

00:10:28.940 What is it like now,

00:10:30.420 30 years later?

00:10:32.320 Well,

00:10:32.980 the reality is that

00:10:34.880 virtually every sphere

00:10:36.900 of society is collapsing

00:10:38.300 with the exception of taxation,

00:10:40.720 of course,

00:10:41.040 and tax collection.

00:10:41.780 That's still very,

00:10:42.860 very efficient.

00:10:43.860 Maybe I can explain it this way.

00:10:46.160 So America has a somewhat skewed

00:10:49.900 tax system with,

00:10:52.000 if my information is correct,

00:10:53.440 about 85% of tax,

00:10:55.720 income tax in America

00:10:56.760 is paid by about 10%

00:10:58.440 of the people.

00:10:59.160 I think that's correct.

00:10:59.940 So one in 10.

00:11:01.160 In South Africa,

00:11:02.160 85% of income tax

00:11:03.900 is paid by one in 30 people.

00:11:05.760 So it's a very small number

00:11:08.260 of people,

00:11:08.780 a very small portion

00:11:11.100 of society that pays tax,

00:11:13.520 that is heavily taxed.

00:11:15.360 And then about almost half

00:11:16.860 of the population

00:11:17.940 in South Africa

00:11:18.960 get money from the government

00:11:20.060 in the form of social grants.

00:11:21.800 If you add government employees,

00:11:24.260 conservative estimates

00:11:25.240 say that 50% of people

00:11:27.860 in South Africa

00:11:28.320 get money from the government.

00:11:30.080 Some estimates say

00:11:31.140 it's up to 60% of adults,

00:11:33.480 voting age adults,

00:11:34.340 get money from the government

00:11:35.380 each year.

00:11:36.600 So then this money,

00:11:39.120 of course,

00:11:39.500 is then used.

00:11:40.260 It's given out as social grants.

00:11:42.100 But what's left

00:11:43.260 is used to set up

00:11:44.880 these programs

00:11:45.740 that are actively discriminating

00:11:47.160 against taxpayers.

00:11:48.480 Like, I mean,

00:11:49.100 there are so many examples.

00:11:50.020 One of the most recent one

00:11:51.180 is this blacks-only fund

00:11:53.260 that the government

00:11:53.860 has set up

00:11:54.580 whereby they give money

00:11:55.640 to black entrepreneurs

00:11:56.640 exclusively.

00:11:58.100 So this is happening.

00:11:59.380 And then on top of that,

00:12:01.040 so after you spend

00:12:02.580 your tax money

00:12:03.580 to fund these

00:12:04.440 government programs

00:12:05.380 that are discriminating

00:12:06.120 against you,

00:12:07.260 you have to spend

00:12:08.120 what is left

00:12:08.620 to do the things

00:12:09.420 that the government

00:12:09.880 was supposed to be doing.

00:12:11.260 So the classical definition

00:12:12.500 of a government

00:12:12.980 is that it should protect

00:12:14.020 life, liberty, and property.

00:12:15.860 The classic liberal view,

00:12:17.160 we're a bit Ciceronian,

00:12:18.240 so we think a government

00:12:19.000 has to do more than that.

00:12:20.820 But if we use

00:12:21.900 those three things,

00:12:22.840 the government's

00:12:23.320 not protecting our lives.

00:12:25.220 There's about,

00:12:27.080 if this interview

00:12:28.120 that we're about to have

00:12:28.920 is two hours,

00:12:29.760 there will be about

00:12:30.460 seven murders

00:12:31.160 in South Africa

00:12:31.900 in this time.

00:12:33.420 Government does not

00:12:34.300 protect liberty.

00:12:34.980 It's actively targeting

00:12:36.200 schools of minority communities,

00:12:37.940 actively denying

00:12:38.760 the identity

00:12:39.660 and the rights

00:12:40.300 of minority communities.

00:12:42.160 And it's certainly

00:12:42.800 not protecting property.

00:12:44.160 It's actively involved

00:12:45.600 with the program

00:12:46.220 to empower the government

00:12:47.220 to expropriate

00:12:48.100 private property

00:12:48.960 without compensation.

00:12:50.620 So,

00:12:51.820 and then we have to use

00:12:52.860 the money that is left

00:12:53.800 to pay for our own

00:12:55.060 private security,

00:12:56.200 to become involved

00:12:57.000 with organizations,

00:12:57.900 to fulfill the things

00:12:58.780 that the government

00:12:59.280 was supposed to be doing

00:13:00.360 with the tax money

00:13:01.700 that we paid

00:13:02.240 in the first place.

00:13:04.960 One of the reasons

00:13:05.920 that I find this story

00:13:07.440 so fascinating

00:13:08.440 is not simply because,

00:13:11.140 you know,

00:13:11.380 it's like the classical,

00:13:12.960 you know,

00:13:13.360 irony of history.

00:13:14.440 This, you know,

00:13:15.180 group comes in

00:13:15.840 with one name

00:13:16.380 and then achieves

00:13:16.880 exactly the opposite.

00:13:17.880 We're going to have a,

00:13:18.700 you know,

00:13:18.880 we're going to end racism

00:13:19.800 and then make racism

00:13:20.660 much worse,

00:13:21.380 but also because

00:13:22.480 they have gone about it

00:13:23.660 in a way that's

00:13:24.300 almost like American,

00:13:26.600 with the same language,

00:13:27.640 the same diversity

00:13:28.920 as our strength

00:13:29.580 kind of sloganeering

00:13:30.420 and it's had the same result,

00:13:32.460 which is to basically

00:13:33.620 kill whites.

00:13:34.820 And I,

00:13:35.720 I mean,

00:13:36.120 that's just true.

00:13:37.320 And I,

00:13:38.160 I wonder if you see that.

00:13:40.380 It's almost like you imported

00:13:41.680 our kind of

00:13:43.700 intellectual class framework

00:13:46.420 for this project.

00:13:47.700 No,

00:13:47.800 that's absolutely the case.

00:13:48.800 So,

00:13:49.000 so there's a theory,

00:13:50.220 there was this video

00:13:50.840 that just went viral

00:13:51.860 on social media

00:13:52.860 of this guy

00:13:53.440 talking about

00:13:54.280 how white people

00:13:55.520 are subhuman

00:13:56.240 and all of that.

00:13:57.540 And they get,

00:13:58.740 well,

00:13:58.940 this is taught

00:13:59.420 at universities

00:14:00.020 in South Africa.

00:14:00.800 There's a theory

00:14:01.340 called Azania critical theory.

00:14:03.240 Azania is a pan-African word

00:14:04.820 for South Africa.

00:14:06.080 And they actually get this

00:14:07.460 from Americans

00:14:08.240 like Robin DiAngelo,

00:14:10.380 who's this Ibrahim X.

00:14:11.480 Kendi,

00:14:12.400 Tanayisi Coates,

00:14:13.240 these people.

00:14:13.700 They get it from them

00:14:14.420 and then they put

00:14:15.780 an African flavor on it,

00:14:17.340 which essentially boils down

00:14:19.060 to a theory

00:14:20.120 that justifies

00:14:21.440 the targeting

00:14:22.580 and extermination

00:14:23.640 of the white minority.

00:14:24.960 And so the theory

00:14:26.380 to summarize

00:14:26.980 goes more or less

00:14:27.860 like this.

00:14:29.140 There's an African term

00:14:30.080 called Ubuntu,

00:14:31.080 which means

00:14:31.640 brotherliness

00:14:33.280 or it's about

00:14:34.680 your internal humanity.

00:14:36.300 It's a Zulu term.

00:14:37.640 And the theory goes

00:14:38.820 that white people

00:14:40.100 are incapable

00:14:40.720 of having Ubuntu.

00:14:42.440 But Ubuntu

00:14:43.580 is the essence

00:14:44.800 of humanity.

00:14:45.500 So if you don't have it,

00:14:46.340 you're not truly human.

00:14:47.780 So it boils down

00:14:49.120 that the logical conclusion

00:14:50.460 is that if you kill

00:14:51.360 a white person,

00:14:52.060 then you did not

00:14:54.040 actually commit murder.

00:14:55.660 So this is not

00:14:56.660 widely believed

00:14:57.780 in South Africa,

00:14:58.280 but this is taught

00:14:59.120 at universities

00:14:59.960 by university professors

00:15:01.200 and it's certainly believed

00:15:02.920 by radical elements.

00:15:04.720 It's a predicate

00:15:05.140 for genocide.

00:15:06.180 I mean,

00:15:06.360 it's always the same

00:15:07.140 in every,

00:15:07.740 I mean,

00:15:07.980 we're watching

00:15:08.520 in parts of the world now,

00:15:09.320 they're not fully human,

00:15:10.360 right?

00:15:10.760 So we can kill them

00:15:11.540 because they're fully human.

00:15:12.340 Then it's,

00:15:12.800 of course,

00:15:13.460 a grave sin to kill them.

00:15:14.980 Yeah,

00:15:15.180 well,

00:15:15.440 we've always been saying

00:15:16.600 that there's not

00:15:17.160 a genocide in South Africa

00:15:18.280 looking at what happened

00:15:19.460 in Rwanda

00:15:20.000 and so forth.

00:15:20.560 It's not the same thing,

00:15:22.260 but it is very alarming

00:15:23.760 to look at some

00:15:24.600 of these claims

00:15:25.240 that are being made

00:15:26.200 and to compare that

00:15:27.480 to what was made

00:15:28.200 in Rwanda.

00:15:29.320 Well,

00:15:29.860 every country,

00:15:30.820 and,

00:15:30.980 you know,

00:15:31.220 genocide broadly defined,

00:15:32.860 an attempt

00:15:33.960 to eliminate

00:15:35.120 a group of people

00:15:35.760 on the basis

00:15:36.240 of their race

00:15:36.800 or ethnicity.

00:15:38.040 Yeah,

00:15:38.500 and we have

00:15:39.020 these political parties

00:15:40.040 chanting,

00:15:40.660 I mean,

00:15:40.840 you've seen this,

00:15:41.560 you've reported on this,

00:15:42.400 chanting,

00:15:42.820 kill the boer,

00:15:43.440 kill the farmer

00:15:44.020 to a stadium

00:15:44.680 filled with people.

00:15:46.460 And it's not just rhetoric.

00:15:47.900 So they would say,

00:15:48.480 no,

00:15:48.680 it's just a metaphor.

00:15:50.080 But it's preceded

00:15:51.300 by a speech

00:15:52.020 about how white people

00:15:53.880 are criminals

00:15:54.340 and should be treated

00:15:55.140 like criminals,

00:15:55.940 how everything they have

00:15:56.820 is illegitimate

00:15:57.540 and stolen,

00:15:58.440 in which people

00:15:59.280 are encouraged

00:15:59.840 to go and invade

00:16:00.640 their farms

00:16:01.320 and so forth.

00:16:02.120 And then they chant,

00:16:03.040 kill the boer,

00:16:03.540 kill the farmer,

00:16:04.220 and they make

00:16:04.580 these hand gestures.

00:16:05.840 Of course,

00:16:06.120 the boer is a reference

00:16:06.980 to the Afrikaner people.

00:16:09.360 But the reality

00:16:10.620 is also that

00:16:11.180 the farmers

00:16:11.580 are being attacked

00:16:12.340 and killed

00:16:12.760 on their farms.

00:16:13.320 So it's not just

00:16:14.020 a metaphor.

00:16:15.400 And our attempt

00:16:16.620 at researching this

00:16:17.620 has found that

00:16:18.400 there's an increase

00:16:19.280 in farm attacks.

00:16:20.320 Obviously,

00:16:20.800 when the political climate

00:16:21.820 becomes heated

00:16:23.300 or warmer,

00:16:24.560 and these type

00:16:25.280 of statements

00:16:26.180 are made

00:16:26.680 in a way

00:16:27.460 that's highly publicized,

00:16:28.900 you do get

00:16:29.580 an increase

00:16:30.120 in farm attacks.

00:16:31.040 And it's very brutal

00:16:32.020 and very horrific

00:16:33.180 farm attacks

00:16:33.780 that we see.

00:16:34.680 So the farm attacks

00:16:36.480 are attacks

00:16:36.820 against white farmers,

00:16:37.960 not against...

00:16:38.360 Not exclusively

00:16:39.080 white farmers,

00:16:39.800 but it's attacks

00:16:40.300 against farmers

00:16:40.960 in South Africa,

00:16:41.580 of which the majority

00:16:42.520 is white.

00:16:43.200 Right.

00:16:43.660 Okay.

00:16:44.360 So this has been

00:16:45.360 going on a long time.

00:16:46.660 I think it's been

00:16:47.160 well documented.

00:16:47.880 I believe you wrote

00:16:48.500 a book about it,

00:16:49.960 which has become

00:16:51.620 very...

00:16:53.440 Sold a lot of copies

00:16:54.500 on Amazon,

00:16:55.000 I noticed.

00:16:55.540 Yes.

00:16:56.860 And so none of this

00:16:58.040 is like a secret,

00:16:59.440 and all of it's

00:17:00.040 verifiable because,

00:17:01.420 you know,

00:17:01.660 dead people are

00:17:02.400 pretty easy to track

00:17:03.160 because they're dead.

00:17:04.080 Yeah, we have the names

00:17:04.820 of the people

00:17:05.320 who've been murdered.

00:17:06.080 Exactly.

00:17:06.280 Yeah.

00:17:06.400 But in the United States,

00:17:08.700 the country that inspired

00:17:10.140 the revolution

00:17:11.500 that you're living through,

00:17:12.760 our media have ignored that

00:17:15.020 and then gone beyond

00:17:17.040 ignoring it

00:17:17.660 to attack anyone

00:17:18.860 who brings it up

00:17:19.700 as a, quote,

00:17:20.260 white supremacist.

00:17:21.640 Yeah.

00:17:22.040 Well, I can tell you

00:17:24.260 so many stories about this.

00:17:25.540 Please do.

00:17:26.080 For example,

00:17:26.560 I was on your show

00:17:27.400 a few years ago

00:17:27.940 to talk about

00:17:28.740 the farm murders

00:17:29.580 and the extent

00:17:30.860 to which we were attacked

00:17:32.320 by American media

00:17:33.640 as a result of that.

00:17:34.760 I had someone from CNN

00:17:35.900 come see me

00:17:36.880 in my office

00:17:37.420 in Pretoria

00:17:38.180 and to interview me

00:17:40.160 about farm attacks

00:17:41.240 and the entire interview

00:17:42.640 was about you.

00:17:43.800 So he would put things

00:17:45.380 to me and say,

00:17:45.960 did you know

00:17:46.360 Tucker Carlson

00:17:47.060 said the following,

00:17:48.100 do you agree

00:17:48.740 with this statement

00:17:49.440 and did you know

00:17:50.880 that Donald Trump

00:17:51.580 said this

00:17:52.140 and are you comfortable

00:17:52.880 with this?

00:17:53.820 And so I paused him

00:17:54.600 at one stage

00:17:55.220 and I said,

00:17:55.680 what are we doing?

00:17:56.460 I thought we had

00:17:57.220 to talk about farm murders

00:17:58.420 and what's happening

00:17:59.160 in South Africa.

00:18:00.360 But the only,

00:18:01.060 so the argument was

00:18:02.080 that because Trump

00:18:03.040 made that comment

00:18:03.880 about farm murders

00:18:04.780 in 2018,

00:18:06.580 it has to be

00:18:08.240 a non-existing issue

00:18:09.220 because Trump

00:18:09.760 is a liar

00:18:10.280 and everything he says

00:18:11.120 is false

00:18:11.560 and the same with you

00:18:12.600 because you spoke about it,

00:18:13.900 that means that

00:18:14.600 the problem doesn't exist

00:18:16.060 and we have to prove

00:18:16.940 that it doesn't exist

00:18:17.760 in order to get to you.

00:18:18.760 Well, not only

00:18:19.180 doesn't it exist,

00:18:20.980 you're not allowed

00:18:21.480 to complain about it existing.

00:18:23.380 Yes, yes.

00:18:24.480 It's somehow

00:18:25.420 a moral crime

00:18:28.760 to notice

00:18:29.960 and to not like it

00:18:31.720 when people are murdered

00:18:32.560 for the color of their skin.

00:18:34.340 It's bizarre.

00:18:35.540 Well, it's not bizarre.

00:18:37.580 They're telegraphing

00:18:38.460 genocidal intent

00:18:39.260 when they're telling you,

00:18:40.840 no, you're not getting killed

00:18:42.480 and yes,

00:18:42.900 it's a good thing

00:18:43.380 that you are.

00:18:44.020 Yes, and no,

00:18:45.040 you're not getting killed.

00:18:46.040 What are they saying?

00:18:46.620 Yeah, it's no,

00:18:47.440 you're not getting killed

00:18:48.140 and if you are,

00:18:48.940 you deserve it.

00:18:49.660 Right.

00:18:50.560 Because of a variety of things

00:18:51.960 because the attackers

00:18:53.340 are poor

00:18:54.000 or because remember

00:18:55.020 all the horrible things

00:18:55.920 that white people have done

00:18:57.060 in South Africa

00:18:58.220 and outside of South Africa.

00:19:00.080 So there's always

00:19:00.980 a justification

00:19:01.640 and so another example,

00:19:03.980 just in 2018,

00:19:05.380 again,

00:19:05.600 after you spoke about this

00:19:06.760 and after Trump

00:19:07.920 spoke about this,

00:19:09.200 the president of South Africa,

00:19:10.280 Cyril Ramaphosa,

00:19:10.960 came to America

00:19:12.240 and he spoke at an event

00:19:14.120 in New York

00:19:15.760 and he said

00:19:16.440 there are no killings

00:19:18.020 of farmers

00:19:18.640 in South Africa

00:19:19.400 and he just flat out

00:19:21.200 denied the existence

00:19:22.620 of the problem

00:19:23.280 and he said this

00:19:24.240 on an international platform.

00:19:25.460 He said it's not happening,

00:19:26.400 it's not true

00:19:26.940 and the worst of it all

00:19:29.500 was how the media

00:19:30.880 knew this was wrong,

00:19:32.540 especially mainstream media

00:19:33.620 in South Africa.

00:19:34.180 They knew that it's not true

00:19:35.220 and so they immediately

00:19:36.600 rushed to his defense,

00:19:38.280 writing articles like

00:19:39.460 this is what he actually

00:19:40.900 meant to say

00:19:41.840 and then they sort of

00:19:42.640 justify what's happening

00:19:43.900 and so it's,

00:19:45.820 we really do sometimes feel

00:19:47.480 that our biggest battle

00:19:49.060 is not primarily against

00:19:50.740 what the government is doing

00:19:51.680 but against how the media

00:19:52.680 is reporting.

00:19:52.940 But just consider this,

00:19:54.140 I mean,

00:19:54.560 if, you know,

00:19:56.640 if Tootsies and Kilgali

00:19:58.900 in 1994 said,

00:20:00.360 boy, I, you know,

00:20:01.420 a lot of us seem to be

00:20:02.680 getting hacked to death

00:20:03.420 by machetes

00:20:03.980 and reporters

00:20:06.280 or political figures

00:20:07.200 said, shut up,

00:20:09.020 you know,

00:20:09.460 you're a Tootsie supremacist

00:20:11.460 for saying so,

00:20:12.460 I think we could fairly say

00:20:14.420 that people shouting them down

00:20:15.820 are pro-genocide

00:20:17.360 of Tootsies.

00:20:18.280 Yeah.

00:20:18.540 I mean,

00:20:18.780 what's the other explanation?

00:20:20.120 I don't really get it.

00:20:21.140 I mean,

00:20:21.380 what, honestly,

00:20:22.100 what's the other explanation?

00:20:23.960 Well,

00:20:24.240 the explanation that is used

00:20:26.320 in court cases,

00:20:27.520 so by the way,

00:20:28.060 this kill the boer chant

00:20:29.240 was found in court

00:20:30.620 not to be hate speech

00:20:31.640 according to South African law.

00:20:33.200 It's not hate speech.

00:20:33.860 Killing people is not hate speech.

00:20:34.820 Yeah,

00:20:35.080 chanting about killing people.

00:20:36.840 You know why it's not hate speech?

00:20:37.900 Because it's not speech they hate.

00:20:39.340 That's why.

00:20:40.000 Well,

00:20:40.440 maybe that's it.

00:20:41.040 It's speech they approve of.

00:20:41.700 So the arguments that is used

00:20:45.040 or are used

00:20:46.200 to defend this type of rhetoric

00:20:48.280 would always be something like

00:20:49.800 you need to see it in context.

00:20:51.600 You need to remember

00:20:52.360 the apartheid system.

00:20:53.680 You need to remember

00:20:54.220 what these people went through.

00:20:55.460 That they deserve to be killed.

00:20:56.680 You need to remember that.

00:20:57.700 Yeah,

00:20:57.860 that's,

00:20:58.240 well,

00:20:58.480 so the argument is that

00:20:59.520 they're actually commemorating

00:21:00.780 the historic struggle

00:21:01.940 and that's why

00:21:03.020 they are still chanting this.

00:21:04.140 I would disagree with you.

00:21:05.060 I think what they're saying is

00:21:06.220 the people getting murdered

00:21:07.300 deserve to be murdered,

00:21:08.260 so stop complaining about it.

00:21:10.140 Yeah,

00:21:10.300 well,

00:21:10.580 a few people are saying that out loud,

00:21:12.520 but there does seem to be the same.

00:21:13.640 I mean,

00:21:13.680 look,

00:21:13.900 at some point,

00:21:15.200 you know,

00:21:15.480 I don't need you to explain your motive

00:21:18.300 if I have a clear glimpse of your actions.

00:21:21.140 If I know what you're doing,

00:21:22.240 I don't have to hear you explain

00:21:23.760 why you're doing it.

00:21:24.540 I already know

00:21:25.260 because the motive

00:21:27.240 is displayed in the action.

00:21:29.740 Do you know what I mean?

00:21:30.360 Yep.

00:21:30.700 So,

00:21:30.900 in other words,

00:21:31.620 if I pull out a gun and shoot you

00:21:33.140 and somebody said,

00:21:34.180 did you not like Ernst?

00:21:35.760 Yeah.

00:21:36.280 I can say whatever I want,

00:21:37.520 but I just shot you.

00:21:38.440 So I think it's kind of,

00:21:39.360 fair to infer that I didn't like you.

00:21:41.660 Yeah,

00:21:41.900 but the motive is also explained in the words.

00:21:45.520 So they're trying to defend the words.

00:21:47.180 It's a famous story of Chamberlain and Churchill.

00:21:49.400 You know,

00:21:49.540 when Chamberlain came back from meeting Hitler

00:21:51.420 and he said,

00:21:52.100 no,

00:21:52.340 well,

00:21:52.620 I met him and,

00:21:53.820 you know,

00:21:54.400 I think we're going to find peace.

00:21:55.880 And then Churchill said,

00:21:56.720 no,

00:21:56.860 well,

00:21:56.980 I read what he said

00:21:58.020 and I believed him.

00:21:59.440 And so you can just read what they're saying.

00:22:01.700 If you read the policy documents

00:22:03.100 of the ruling party,

00:22:03.880 they say they want to convert South Africa

00:22:06.000 into a communist society.

00:22:07.420 They want to have a revolution in South Africa.

00:22:09.740 And if you listen to the more radical parties

00:22:11.560 to the left of them,

00:22:12.500 they openly chant about killing white people.

00:22:15.500 So,

00:22:16.020 so they say these things out loud.

00:22:17.700 It's,

00:22:17.980 it's,

00:22:18.920 and now they are obviously more to the fringe.

00:22:21.920 You find the more extreme rhetoric in South Africa,

00:22:23.960 but,

00:22:24.360 but it's very alarming

00:22:25.780 and,

00:22:25.980 and how people just rush to their defense all the time.

00:22:29.220 Permanent Washington is terrified

00:22:30.780 and distraught by the Trump revolution now in progress.

00:22:34.060 And it is a revolution

00:22:35.140 and it's unfolding along very familiar lines.

00:22:38.600 The White House is now giving voters

00:22:40.320 what they actually want

00:22:41.940 and what they've wanted for a long time.

00:22:43.580 And that's the one thing

00:22:44.360 that permanent Washington doesn't want to give them.

00:22:46.640 They are working to stop it.

00:22:49.860 Fortunately,

00:22:50.220 our friends at Heritage,

00:22:51.120 the Heritage Foundation in D.C.,

00:22:52.380 are fighting back.

00:22:53.380 They've spent years thinking this through.

00:22:55.200 How do you dismantle permanent D.C.,

00:22:57.200 the deep structures underneath everything?

00:22:59.100 How do you train replacements

00:23:00.140 for the bureaucrats getting canned?

00:23:01.700 How do you enact policies

00:23:02.880 that voters actually voted for?

00:23:05.400 Well,

00:23:05.560 now that Biden is gone,

00:23:06.780 Heritage's vision is finally becoming reality

00:23:08.760 and you can help push it forward

00:23:09.940 by going to heritage.org slash Tucker

00:23:12.580 and making a tax-deductible donation.

00:23:14.700 Your gift fuels their American rescue plan

00:23:17.440 and helps stop permanent Washington

00:23:19.360 from crushing it,

00:23:20.800 from strangling it in the cradle.

00:23:22.580 Heritage has been doing this a long time.

00:23:24.180 They've been successful

00:23:24.900 and they're more aggressive now than ever.

00:23:27.540 Their work is worth supporting.

00:23:28.620 Go to heritage.org slash Tucker

00:23:30.340 to make your gift today.

00:23:32.080 We hope you will.

00:23:33.240 They speak of darkness and danger,

00:23:35.820 but totalitarian novels also give us hope,

00:23:38.700 showing us how to defend our society

00:23:41.220 from the horrors of tyranny.

00:23:43.400 In Hillsdale College's free online course,

00:23:45.960 Totalitarian Novels,

00:23:47.420 Hillsdale President Larry Arn

00:23:49.000 teaches us lessons from classic novels

00:23:51.300 like George Orwell's 1984

00:23:53.200 that are as relevant today as ever.

00:23:56.740 Sign up now for Hillsdale College's

00:23:58.680 free online course,

00:24:00.220 Totalitarian Novels,

00:24:01.480 at tuckerforhillsdale.com.

00:24:03.780 That's tuckerforhillsdale.com.

00:24:06.700 Did you know you could invest in crypto?

00:24:08.700 through your retirement account?

00:24:10.300 That's right.

00:24:11.060 iTrust Capital allows Americans

00:24:12.320 to invest in over 60

00:24:13.720 of the most popular cryptocurrencies

00:24:15.060 like Bitcoin in a tax-advantaged IRA.

00:24:18.360 Take control of your future.

00:24:19.960 Get started at itrustcapital.com

00:24:22.020 forward slash tucker

00:24:22.920 and use the promo code tucker

00:24:24.500 to get a $100 funding bonus.

00:24:26.820 That's itrustcapital.com

00:24:28.220 forward slash tucker.

00:24:29.700 Paid ad for informational purposes only.

00:24:31.480 Taxes may apply.

00:24:32.300 Crypto is speculative

00:24:33.040 and carries risk of loss.

00:24:34.200 iTrust Capital does not provide

00:24:35.300 legal investment or tax advice.

00:24:36.580 So that's the part that bothers me.

00:24:38.020 Like, I'm not surprised.

00:24:38.800 I'll just say it.

00:24:39.920 I'm not surprised at all.

00:24:41.140 I watched what happened in Rhodesia

00:24:42.420 when it became Zimbabwe in 1980

00:24:44.320 and, you know,

00:24:45.700 something identical happened.

00:24:47.440 There was a lot of killing

00:24:48.720 and they drove it, you know,

00:24:51.180 to the bottom rank of nations,

00:24:53.020 the poorest country in the world.

00:24:54.040 And following exactly the same script,

00:24:56.920 I always thought that would happen

00:24:58.080 in South Africa.

00:24:58.900 I wanted to be wrong.

00:25:00.040 Turns out I wasn't.

00:25:01.680 What really bothers me

00:25:03.580 is that the West

00:25:04.900 has allowed this

00:25:06.760 and cheered it on

00:25:07.660 because I live in the West.

00:25:09.180 I live in the United States.

00:25:10.180 So, like,

00:25:10.940 I don't want to think

00:25:11.820 that my leaders

00:25:12.440 are for killing people

00:25:13.820 on the basis of race,

00:25:14.780 but watching

00:25:16.300 how they've stood by

00:25:17.980 and applauded,

00:25:19.600 Barack Obama's applauded

00:25:20.540 all this stuff,

00:25:21.660 it tells you everything

00:25:22.480 about Barack Obama

00:25:23.260 and other American leaders,

00:25:24.700 doesn't it?

00:25:25.320 Yes, and this brings us

00:25:27.120 back to the 90s.

00:25:28.140 So, during the 90s,

00:25:29.120 it was, again,

00:25:29.640 after the Cold War

00:25:30.440 and the world

00:25:31.000 and especially the West

00:25:31.860 was high on ideology

00:25:33.420 and this idea

00:25:34.300 that, you know,

00:25:35.180 the world will become liberal

00:25:36.280 and everyone's going

00:25:37.080 to become like us

00:25:37.980 and everyone in the world

00:25:39.360 is just an American

00:25:40.320 waiting to be liberated

00:25:41.520 and we just need to go

00:25:42.940 and liberate them

00:25:43.580 from their own

00:25:44.280 traditional beliefs

00:25:45.300 and so forth.

00:25:46.480 And so, it really is the case

00:25:48.100 that America

00:25:49.160 and many Western countries

00:25:50.460 played a very significant role

00:25:52.440 in creating the South Africa

00:25:53.900 that we have today.

00:25:54.680 Oh, I'm aware.

00:25:55.180 I'm aware.

00:25:55.920 And so, it's,

00:25:57.220 we don't want other people

00:25:58.620 to fix our problems

00:25:59.660 on our behalf.

00:26:00.440 We want to solve

00:26:01.100 our own problems,

00:26:02.060 but you can certainly

00:26:03.260 make the case

00:26:03.980 that the West

00:26:05.160 has a moral responsibility

00:26:06.460 towards the people

00:26:07.320 in South Africa.

00:26:08.000 Of course.

00:26:08.660 The West forced,

00:26:10.300 through sanctions boycotts,

00:26:12.380 the change of government

00:26:13.220 that put the ANC in power.

00:26:15.600 So, absolutely.

00:26:17.340 In the same way,

00:26:17.920 the West has armed Ukraine.

00:26:19.160 So, they have an obligation

00:26:20.100 to make sure,

00:26:21.980 you know,

00:26:22.540 to at least know

00:26:23.620 what's happening

00:26:24.160 and to be honest about it,

00:26:25.180 not to hide their own,

00:26:27.040 you know,

00:26:27.460 responsibility for the crime.

00:26:28.600 Yeah, and so,

00:26:29.360 there's this false dichotomy

00:26:30.460 in South Africa

00:26:32.060 or with regard to South Africa

00:26:33.300 that if you are against

00:26:35.140 what's happening

00:26:35.820 in South Africa now,

00:26:36.880 that means you want

00:26:37.860 the apartheid system.

00:26:39.400 So, you have a choice.

00:26:40.760 And this one former judge

00:26:42.400 recently said this,

00:26:43.460 who's retired,

00:26:44.060 he said that

00:26:44.560 we have a choice

00:26:45.460 in South Africa

00:26:46.000 between a moral system

00:26:48.140 that is dysfunctional,

00:26:49.480 which is the current system,

00:26:50.780 or an immoral system

00:26:52.080 that is a functional one,

00:26:53.280 which is the former system.

00:26:54.840 And so, the problem is

00:26:55.580 if you criticize

00:26:56.160 what's happening

00:26:56.740 in South Africa now,

00:26:57.500 you get accused

00:26:58.040 of wanting to return

00:26:59.040 to the apartheid system.

00:26:59.960 But the truth is

00:27:00.560 you can reject both.

00:27:01.960 You can say,

00:27:02.500 we don't want the apartheid system

00:27:03.900 and we don't want

00:27:04.760 what's happening

00:27:05.280 in South Africa

00:27:05.940 at the moment.

00:27:06.760 We want to govern ourselves.

00:27:08.180 We want freedom.

00:27:09.700 But it seems

00:27:10.900 that a lot of people

00:27:11.560 are incapable

00:27:12.200 of making that conclusion

00:27:13.880 or leaving any room

00:27:16.300 for saying that

00:27:17.160 both these systems are wrong

00:27:18.960 and we need a better system,

00:27:20.540 a system that is

00:27:21.240 much more decentralized,

00:27:22.580 a system in which

00:27:23.280 the various nations

00:27:25.120 who live in South Africa,

00:27:26.380 because South Africa

00:27:26.860 is very big,

00:27:27.760 it's almost as big as Europe,

00:27:29.480 the various nations

00:27:30.660 living in South Africa

00:27:31.440 should just govern themselves.

00:27:33.440 And that's not

00:27:34.060 what's happening

00:27:34.560 in South Africa.

00:27:35.300 And I think it's

00:27:36.000 a worthy course to pursue.

00:27:38.400 So can I,

00:27:39.280 I think I'm hardly

00:27:41.440 an expert on South Africa

00:27:42.320 at all,

00:27:43.060 but I am American.

00:27:44.080 So if I,

00:27:44.580 can I just give my overview

00:27:45.640 of what,

00:27:46.820 of the different groups

00:27:47.740 in South Africa

00:27:48.260 and you correct me,

00:27:49.240 but just so people

00:27:49.840 following along

00:27:50.340 because I think it matters

00:27:51.120 for reasons I'll explain.

00:27:52.260 So South Africa,

00:27:53.900 there are basically

00:27:55.100 two big white populations

00:27:56.080 in South Africa historically.

00:27:57.540 They're what were called

00:27:58.200 the Boers,

00:27:58.740 the Afrikaners,

00:27:59.540 who are,

00:28:00.340 were religious,

00:28:01.280 basically religious refugees.

00:28:03.060 Yes.

00:28:03.200 A mixture of Dutch

00:28:04.220 and French Huguenots,

00:28:06.060 Protestant Dutch,

00:28:07.140 Protestant French,

00:28:08.660 who moved to Southern Africa

00:28:10.660 for reasons

00:28:12.740 of religious liberty.

00:28:13.780 Okay.

00:28:14.080 And then you had

00:28:14.980 the English

00:28:15.780 who I think were

00:28:17.640 after the Boer War

00:28:18.860 in power.

00:28:19.680 Yes.

00:28:20.960 Who mostly

00:28:22.480 were there

00:28:23.100 for economic reasons

00:28:24.380 and had,

00:28:25.980 in many cases,

00:28:26.960 passports

00:28:27.440 back to Great Britain.

00:28:30.260 And then you had

00:28:31.620 a couple of different

00:28:32.960 African black groups,

00:28:34.680 the largest of which

00:28:36.200 I think is to this day

00:28:37.460 are the Zulus.

00:28:38.180 Yes.

00:28:38.360 who,

00:28:39.880 like the Afrikaners,

00:28:40.920 the Boers,

00:28:41.640 and the English,

00:28:42.420 were not native

00:28:43.560 to the area at all.

00:28:45.260 They were newcomers

00:28:46.840 who arrived,

00:28:47.700 I think,

00:28:48.060 just right before

00:28:48.880 the Boers did.

00:28:49.580 Yeah,

00:28:49.800 not long before

00:28:50.620 that arrived.

00:28:51.120 Okay,

00:28:51.300 this is all true?

00:28:52.160 Yes,

00:28:52.420 yes,

00:28:52.740 yes.

00:28:53.240 And they,

00:28:54.780 you know,

00:28:56.000 as invading groups

00:28:56.780 often usually do,

00:28:58.460 kind of exterminated

00:28:59.380 the native population

00:29:00.240 who were the,

00:29:01.280 what we would call

00:29:02.220 the Bushmen.

00:29:02.980 Yeah,

00:29:03.340 the Koi and the San,

00:29:04.260 as they are also called.

00:29:05.100 Thank you.

00:29:05.580 Yes.

00:29:06.120 Okay,

00:29:06.300 so that's my like

00:29:07.180 dumb foreigner overview.

00:29:08.600 Is that roughly true?

00:29:09.480 Yeah.

00:29:10.140 So just,

00:29:11.340 can I tell you a story

00:29:13.660 from our history?

00:29:14.080 I hope you will.

00:29:14.780 Yes,

00:29:15.540 it's,

00:29:16.140 some people call it

00:29:16.920 the origin story

00:29:17.780 of the Afrikaner people

00:29:18.860 and it explains a lot

00:29:20.380 about who we are today.

00:29:22.920 So we were settled

00:29:23.860 in the Cape,

00:29:24.660 the Proto-Afrikaners

00:29:25.920 who were still the Dutch,

00:29:27.280 the French,

00:29:27.660 and the Germans.

00:29:28.560 We were then colonized

00:29:29.900 the Cape in,

00:29:30.800 I think,

00:29:31.020 1810 by the British.

00:29:32.320 It was during

00:29:32.720 the Napoleonic Wars.

00:29:34.100 When did the

00:29:35.080 Afrikaners

00:29:35.660 for the Boers

00:29:36.160 first get there?

00:29:38.380 1652.

00:29:40.100 1652.

00:29:40.500 Yeah,

00:29:40.540 that's what's

00:29:41.040 150 years

00:29:41.780 before the

00:29:42.220 Declaration of Independence

00:29:43.280 or something.

00:29:43.980 Wow.

00:29:44.260 Something like that.

00:29:45.460 Yeah.

00:29:45.760 So a long time ago.

00:29:46.860 Yeah,

00:29:47.020 so my great,

00:29:48.240 great,

00:29:48.460 great grandfather,

00:29:49.980 Nikolaus Rutz,

00:29:51.000 who was the first Rutz

00:29:52.160 who came to South Africa,

00:29:54.420 came more or less

00:29:56.880 the time

00:29:57.260 when George Washington

00:29:58.260 was a teenager.

00:29:59.500 So he was eight years

00:30:00.320 older than George Washington.

00:30:01.360 So my family

00:30:02.480 has been in Africa

00:30:03.280 since,

00:30:04.640 you could say,

00:30:05.200 since George Washington,

00:30:06.540 since the time

00:30:07.340 of George Washington.

00:30:08.340 Since before the United States

00:30:09.080 was a country.

00:30:09.660 Yeah,

00:30:10.020 yeah,

00:30:10.220 yeah,

00:30:10.440 absolutely.

00:30:11.680 So the Cape was...

00:30:12.720 Do you have another passport?

00:30:14.080 No.

00:30:15.120 No,

00:30:15.420 no.

00:30:15.740 I don't,

00:30:16.140 and I don't really want one.

00:30:18.000 Right.

00:30:18.280 And do most Afrikaners

00:30:19.760 have other passports?

00:30:20.960 No,

00:30:21.620 most don't.

00:30:22.640 Yeah.

00:30:22.740 But this goes to the story

00:30:24.520 I want to tell you.

00:30:25.080 So we were colonized

00:30:26.740 by the British

00:30:27.400 and you can call them

00:30:29.700 the proto-Afrikaners

00:30:30.880 then said,

00:30:31.660 you know,

00:30:31.900 we don't want to be governed

00:30:32.760 by anyone else.

00:30:33.500 We want to govern ourselves.

00:30:34.940 And so they opted

00:30:35.700 to move into the interior

00:30:37.220 of South Africa,

00:30:38.180 which was called

00:30:39.140 the Great Track.

00:30:39.960 And they didn't know

00:30:40.680 what they would expect.

00:30:41.580 They said they reject slavery.

00:30:43.000 They want to foster

00:30:44.200 good relations

00:30:44.840 with local tribes,

00:30:45.880 which they did.

00:30:46.820 There were many treaties signed

00:30:48.160 and agreements

00:30:48.700 and so forth.

00:30:50.220 And they did not hold slaves.

00:30:51.380 There was slavery

00:30:53.020 in the Cape Colony

00:30:53.860 before that,

00:30:55.460 but when the Great Track,

00:30:56.740 that was around the time

00:30:57.680 of the abolition of slavery

00:30:58.960 and they also rejected slavery.

00:31:00.700 They explicitly said so.

00:31:03.180 So they then went

00:31:04.140 into the interior

00:31:04.800 and the leader

00:31:05.440 of the Great Track

00:31:06.160 was a guy called

00:31:07.020 Pitratif.

00:31:08.040 Yes.

00:31:08.380 Who went to negotiate

00:31:10.320 with the Zulu king,

00:31:11.340 Dangan.

00:31:12.180 And so he said,

00:31:13.040 what can we do

00:31:13.740 to buy land from you

00:31:14.860 for our people to live?

00:31:16.640 The agreement was

00:31:17.480 they had to return cattle

00:31:18.880 that was stolen

00:31:19.540 by another tribe

00:31:20.500 with a king called Sikonjela.

00:31:22.800 So they went,

00:31:23.400 they retrieved the cattle,

00:31:24.380 they brought it

00:31:24.860 to the Zulu king.

00:31:25.800 The Zulu king Dangan,

00:31:27.180 King Dangan,

00:31:27.740 said to them that

00:31:28.540 we have to celebrate.

00:31:30.160 So leave your weapons

00:31:30.960 outside the lager,

00:31:32.220 come inside

00:31:32.800 and we'll have a celebration.

00:31:34.620 During the celebration,

00:31:35.820 at one stage,

00:31:36.700 he chanted

00:31:37.640 Bulalani Abatakati,

00:31:39.380 which means

00:31:39.820 kill the wizards.

00:31:41.320 So they took

00:31:41.960 Retif and his commando,

00:31:43.460 his group,

00:31:44.240 to a nearby hill

00:31:45.100 and they slaughtered him.

00:31:46.880 They had,

00:31:47.260 they slaughtered him last

00:31:48.240 because they wanted him

00:31:49.240 to see,

00:31:50.160 they wanted to make sure

00:31:51.040 that he sees his people

00:31:52.460 and his son murdered.

00:31:54.880 A few months later,

00:31:56.480 before,

00:31:57.420 so after that,

00:31:58.480 they went on

00:31:58.920 an extermination mission.

00:32:00.020 They killed women

00:32:00.660 and children

00:32:01.040 in the lagers

00:32:01.560 and so forth.

00:32:02.660 A few months later,

00:32:03.180 A lager is a group

00:32:04.340 of wagons pulled

00:32:05.120 into a circle.

00:32:05.620 Yes, correct.

00:32:06.160 Yes.

00:32:06.760 And so a few months later,

00:32:08.060 his body was found

00:32:09.040 with the treaty

00:32:09.780 on which the Zulu king

00:32:11.560 signed,

00:32:12.060 giving them some land.

00:32:14.640 So they then started a,

00:32:16.720 initiated a punishment commando,

00:32:19.420 a group of three to four hundred men

00:32:21.160 to,

00:32:22.420 to counterattack the Zulus,

00:32:24.900 which eventually led

00:32:26.220 to the Battle of Blood River,

00:32:27.980 one of the most significant battles

00:32:29.600 in our history,

00:32:30.760 where they found themselves

00:32:32.380 completely surrounded.

00:32:34.040 They were about,

00:32:34.720 let's say,

00:32:35.080 400.

00:32:35.800 Before the boars.

00:32:36.940 Yes.

00:32:37.980 Surrounded by 12,000 Zulus.

00:32:40.420 And so they had this wagon

00:32:41.560 and my great-great-great-great-grandfather

00:32:44.380 was in that lager

00:32:45.760 and he was the religious leader.

00:32:47.260 His name is Saral Salia.

00:32:48.980 So Saral Salia's...

00:32:50.000 And what was their religion?

00:32:51.440 Christian.

00:32:52.180 Dutch Reformed?

00:32:52.780 Dutch Reformed, yes.

00:32:53.600 So he said to them,

00:32:54.700 listen,

00:32:55.540 we need to make a vow to God.

00:32:57.460 And so he wrote a vow,

00:32:58.820 which they all made.

00:33:00.720 And the vow said that

00:33:02.240 we're standing here

00:33:03.440 in front of the God

00:33:04.260 in heaven and earth

00:33:04.980 to make a vow to him

00:33:07.120 that if he protects us

00:33:08.420 in the battle that lies ahead,

00:33:09.880 we will commemorate this day

00:33:11.820 in the years to come

00:33:13.540 as a day of thanksgiving

00:33:15.620 and a Sabbath.

00:33:16.640 And we will also tell

00:33:17.820 our children the story

00:33:18.800 and we will build a church

00:33:19.800 and we will make sure

00:33:20.640 that the honor of the victory

00:33:22.300 goes to God

00:33:23.340 and not to us.

00:33:24.880 So they made this vow

00:33:25.940 and the battle took place

00:33:27.680 and the result was that

00:33:29.160 not one of the Afrikaners

00:33:31.440 were killed.

00:33:32.500 3,000 Zulus died

00:33:33.880 in that battle.

00:33:34.980 Not one was killed?

00:33:36.120 Yes.

00:33:36.900 Yeah.

00:33:37.080 And so the reason

00:33:39.900 why I'm telling this story

00:33:41.020 is not because,

00:33:41.980 not to point to the Zulu people,

00:33:43.340 we have good relations

00:33:44.060 with the Zulu

00:33:44.560 and we've worked with them.

00:33:45.620 This was, of course,

00:33:46.180 the one major battle,

00:33:47.140 but we've had good relations

00:33:48.160 with them over the years.

00:33:49.460 But it just,

00:33:50.280 it says something about,

00:33:51.880 firstly,

00:33:52.180 why the Afrikaner people

00:33:53.400 are so patriotic.

00:33:54.960 It says something about

00:33:55.900 why we are so attached

00:33:57.140 to African soil

00:33:58.220 and why we are still religious.

00:34:00.320 We're a very religious community.

00:34:01.720 We have some problems

00:34:02.600 in terms of belief

00:34:03.960 and so forth.

00:34:04.580 But broadly speaking,

00:34:05.340 the Afrikaners are,

00:34:06.660 compared to Europe

00:34:07.440 and compared to some parts

00:34:09.040 of America,

00:34:09.760 still a very religious people.

00:34:12.080 And it also says something

00:34:13.200 about why we are so attached

00:34:14.920 to the country

00:34:15.500 and why we don't want to leave.

00:34:16.860 We want to stay there

00:34:17.980 because our ancestors

00:34:18.860 have been there

00:34:19.420 for hundreds of years

00:34:20.160 and we fought and died

00:34:21.940 for our space there

00:34:23.360 and we've gotten used to it

00:34:24.480 to a certain extent.

00:34:25.780 What's the only country

00:34:26.540 that you have, isn't it?

00:34:27.760 Exactly.

00:34:28.260 We don't have any other country.

00:34:29.400 We can't go back to England.

00:34:32.800 We're not Dutch anymore.

00:34:33.820 We, you know,

00:34:35.660 there's this slogan

00:34:36.800 in South Africa

00:34:37.280 that says go back to Holland.

00:34:39.000 But, I mean,

00:34:39.700 I've been to Holland.

00:34:40.400 I've been to Amsterdam.

00:34:41.260 It's a beautiful city,

00:34:42.560 but I don't feel

00:34:44.420 like I'm at home

00:34:45.500 when I go there.

00:34:46.260 It's a beautiful foreign city

00:34:47.580 that I'm attending.

00:34:48.260 We became a people

00:34:49.340 in Africa,

00:34:50.460 which is why

00:34:51.400 we are called the Afrikaners.

00:34:52.720 We named ourselves

00:34:53.520 after the continent

00:34:54.300 and our language,

00:34:55.420 Afrikaans,

00:34:56.080 is named after the continent.

00:34:57.240 But you're being called invaders

00:34:58.460 by people whose ancestors

00:34:59.480 were also invaders.

00:35:01.120 Yeah, well,

00:35:01.620 who came from the north of Africa.

00:35:03.060 Yes, from where Cameroon is

00:35:05.340 and so forth.

00:35:05.960 Who came down

00:35:06.520 firstly towards the east of Africa

00:35:08.440 and then along the Great Lakes

00:35:10.240 eventually ending in South Africa.

00:35:12.720 Yes.

00:35:15.680 I think it's what you said

00:35:17.500 is really important

00:35:18.160 because I think

00:35:18.800 from the American

00:35:20.040 or the Western perspective,

00:35:21.520 there's this idea

00:35:22.240 that the Afrikaners,

00:35:25.020 the Boers,

00:35:25.660 are worse.

00:35:26.520 They're the worst whites there.

00:35:27.920 Worse than the English.

00:35:28.600 English.

00:35:29.280 Yes.

00:35:30.660 English,

00:35:31.140 you, by the way,

00:35:31.680 created the concentration camp

00:35:33.300 during the Boer War.

00:35:34.000 Yes.

00:35:34.620 Yep, that's true.

00:35:35.840 Winston Churchill was there

00:35:36.700 and kind of behaved

00:35:40.300 pretty dishonorably,

00:35:41.200 I would say,

00:35:41.580 on many, many levels

00:35:42.440 for hundreds of years

00:35:43.680 in South Africa,

00:35:44.140 but that's just my opinion.

00:35:45.320 Yep.

00:35:45.620 But the Boers

00:35:46.500 are somehow the worst

00:35:47.600 and that they have

00:35:49.500 no right to be there.

00:35:51.300 And I think history

00:35:52.240 suggests something different.

00:35:53.980 Well, absolutely.

00:35:55.240 So on my mother's side,

00:35:56.500 I descend from the British,

00:35:57.660 my great-grandfather

00:35:58.940 fought in the First World War

00:36:00.620 for the British.

00:36:02.260 And so in many ways,

00:36:04.060 culturally,

00:36:04.580 we've become very close

00:36:05.640 to the British

00:36:06.200 because of the influence

00:36:07.240 over the years.

00:36:08.320 And I don't think

00:36:09.100 there's friction today

00:36:10.080 between the Afrikaners

00:36:11.180 and the British,

00:36:12.280 but it certainly is the case.

00:36:13.440 I mean,

00:36:13.560 the concentration camps

00:36:14.580 were horrible.

00:36:15.940 I recently read

00:36:17.080 the Gulag Archipelago

00:36:18.300 and Solzhenitsyn

00:36:19.060 writes in there

00:36:19.700 that the first concentration camps

00:36:21.420 were invented

00:36:22.580 by the Soviets,

00:36:23.400 but that's actually wrong.

00:36:24.520 The first concentration camps

00:36:26.120 that we know of,

00:36:27.280 at least this type

00:36:28.420 of concentration camps

00:36:29.380 were during the first,

00:36:30.440 during the Anglo-Boer War

00:36:31.420 where about 30,000

00:36:32.520 women and children died.

00:36:34.920 But there was a lot of,

00:36:35.760 the great thing

00:36:36.760 about the Anglo-Boer War

00:36:37.920 was that it was

00:36:38.820 in many ways

00:36:39.420 a first for the world.

00:36:41.460 It was,

00:36:41.820 some people call it

00:36:42.420 the first international

00:36:43.600 propaganda war

00:36:44.500 because it was in a time

00:36:45.440 when newspapers

00:36:46.100 became popular.

00:36:47.280 So there was this

00:36:47.860 propaganda war

00:36:48.860 in Europe

00:36:50.220 with regard to the Boers

00:36:51.680 or the Boer War

00:36:53.580 with a lot of people

00:36:54.320 saying the Boers

00:36:54.960 are Boerish.

00:36:56.160 That's where the word

00:36:56.980 comes from.

00:36:58.460 Evidently,

00:36:58.940 if someone told me

00:36:59.540 that's where the word

00:37:00.060 Boerish comes from,

00:37:01.000 it's to be sort of,

00:37:02.140 you know,

00:37:02.960 very old style

00:37:04.240 and, you know,

00:37:05.200 not very sophisticated.

00:37:06.640 Rough, yeah.

00:37:06.920 Yeah, rough around the edges.

00:37:08.640 And so there was

00:37:09.120 a lot of propaganda

00:37:09.880 like the Boers

00:37:10.520 being compared

00:37:11.220 to wild hogs

00:37:13.060 and things like that.

00:37:15.120 But that's okay.

00:37:16.560 The word Boer

00:37:17.520 was actually used

00:37:18.440 for a long time

00:37:19.240 as an insult,

00:37:20.260 almost like Jew,

00:37:20.940 like calling someone a Jew.

00:37:22.120 It's like,

00:37:22.460 oh, you're a Boer,

00:37:23.140 a typical Boer.

00:37:24.140 But I mean,

00:37:24.620 we're very proud

00:37:25.200 of that word.

00:37:26.020 It's something

00:37:26.840 that we take pride in.

00:37:29.360 It's in many ways

00:37:30.320 there's some debate

00:37:31.000 about the difference

00:37:31.660 between Boer and Africana,

00:37:33.060 but it's broadly speaking

00:37:34.200 synonymous.

00:37:35.720 But I mean,

00:37:36.280 we're very proud

00:37:36.880 of our history

00:37:37.420 in South Africa

00:37:37.900 and we've become

00:37:38.540 a very sophisticated

00:37:39.480 community

00:37:40.500 with an immense

00:37:42.200 treasure chest

00:37:43.100 of literature,

00:37:44.140 of poetry,

00:37:44.900 of philosophy,

00:37:45.900 all of it

00:37:46.280 in our own language

00:37:47.140 that we did

00:37:47.740 over the last,

00:37:48.440 especially the last

00:37:49.120 hundred years,

00:37:50.280 which of course

00:37:50.800 is under threat now.

00:37:52.300 Your language

00:37:52.580 is not spoken

00:37:53.060 by anyone else

00:37:53.660 in the world?

00:37:54.620 No,

00:37:55.060 it descends from Dutch.

00:37:57.280 Yes.

00:37:57.860 And so,

00:37:58.980 if you spend some time

00:38:00.620 as an Afrikaans person

00:38:01.900 with some Dutch friends,

00:38:03.500 eventually you start

00:38:04.660 to follow,

00:38:05.700 but it's not Dutch anymore.

00:38:07.540 There's been influences

00:38:08.760 by other languages

00:38:09.600 and so forth.

00:38:10.960 So,

00:38:11.020 there are people

00:38:12.820 who speak it

00:38:13.320 all over the world,

00:38:14.200 but that's only

00:38:14.960 because people

00:38:15.500 who have left

00:38:16.080 from,

00:38:16.720 so many people

00:38:17.300 have left

00:38:17.620 from South Africa.

00:38:18.160 Some estimates

00:38:18.780 say it's about

00:38:19.340 a million people,

00:38:20.480 white people

00:38:20.920 who have left

00:38:21.520 South Africa

00:38:22.080 over the last

00:38:22.560 few decades.

00:38:23.560 How many are left?

00:38:25.120 How many whites

00:38:25.940 overall in South Africa

00:38:27.020 and how many

00:38:27.540 of them are Afrikaans?

00:38:28.360 So,

00:38:28.800 it's more or less

00:38:29.920 about 5 million

00:38:30.820 who are left.

00:38:31.940 The Afrikaner community

00:38:32.820 is about 2.7 million

00:38:34.140 and the total population

00:38:35.740 is about 60,

00:38:36.600 just over 60 million.

00:38:39.340 And now,

00:38:40.680 it looks like

00:38:42.180 you're,

00:38:42.580 as you said,

00:38:43.220 entering some kind

00:38:44.100 of final stage

00:38:45.020 where they'll be,

00:38:46.840 I mean,

00:38:47.020 they've been expelled

00:38:47.800 from a bunch

00:38:48.300 of different

00:38:48.580 African countries,

00:38:49.260 as you know.

00:38:51.380 But,

00:38:51.900 it sounds like

00:38:52.740 the plan

00:38:53.820 is to force

00:38:54.820 them to leave

00:38:55.400 or kill them

00:38:56.040 or what is

00:38:56.400 the plan exactly?

00:38:57.500 So,

00:38:57.700 Jan Smuts,

00:38:59.440 the famous

00:39:00.220 Boer General

00:39:00.700 who worked

00:39:01.760 with Churchill

00:39:02.260 also famously

00:39:03.200 said that

00:39:03.700 South Africa

00:39:04.100 is a country

00:39:04.620 where the best

00:39:05.200 never happens

00:39:05.780 and the worst

00:39:06.280 never happens.

00:39:07.600 And so,

00:39:08.220 we sort of

00:39:08.760 believe that

00:39:09.340 and we hope

00:39:09.860 that the worst

00:39:10.440 outcome

00:39:10.800 is an unrealistic

00:39:11.920 outcome.

00:39:12.980 We do know

00:39:13.640 that the most

00:39:14.120 important thing

00:39:14.700 that we need

00:39:15.220 to do now

00:39:15.840 is to be

00:39:16.340 very well

00:39:17.080 organized

00:39:17.580 in terms

00:39:18.120 of our own

00:39:18.540 communities,

00:39:19.340 to be

00:39:20.220 very well

00:39:20.920 connected

00:39:21.360 to each

00:39:21.800 other.

00:39:23.260 You know,

00:39:23.560 there's this

00:39:23.860 whole debate

00:39:24.280 about the

00:39:24.660 individual

00:39:25.060 and the

00:39:25.420 community

00:39:25.840 in philosophy

00:39:26.540 and we've

00:39:27.320 realized

00:39:27.760 that if

00:39:28.220 you're just

00:39:28.580 an individual,

00:39:29.320 you are

00:39:29.580 completely

00:39:29.940 helpless.

00:39:30.500 If you're

00:39:30.860 not part

00:39:31.180 of a

00:39:31.380 community,

00:39:32.340 if you're

00:39:33.520 not given

00:39:33.880 meaning by

00:39:34.520 the community

00:39:35.140 of which

00:39:35.580 you are a

00:39:35.920 member,

00:39:36.820 you're

00:39:38.060 completely

00:39:38.380 helpless

00:39:38.680 against

00:39:39.040 the Leviathan

00:39:40.200 state.

00:39:41.500 So,

00:39:41.660 we need

00:39:42.020 to be

00:39:42.240 well organized,

00:39:43.080 we need

00:39:43.340 to be armed,

00:39:43.880 we need

00:39:44.580 to have

00:39:45.200 well-functioning

00:39:46.480 communities

00:39:47.740 who look

00:39:48.080 after each

00:39:48.560 after,

00:39:48.940 look after

00:39:49.300 the poor,

00:39:49.860 do all the

00:39:50.220 things that

00:39:50.560 the government

00:39:50.960 is supposed

00:39:51.340 to be doing,

00:39:51.940 but also

00:39:52.440 look after

00:39:52.900 our safety.

00:39:53.540 So,

00:39:53.720 we drive

00:39:54.040 patrols at

00:39:54.720 night,

00:39:55.100 we're

00:39:55.240 involved with

00:39:55.940 tens of

00:39:57.200 thousands of

00:39:57.660 volunteers

00:39:58.040 involved with

00:39:58.640 patrols,

00:39:59.240 looking after

00:39:59.740 our own

00:40:00.140 safety,

00:40:00.960 and so forth.

00:40:01.680 But I

00:40:02.140 think the

00:40:02.460 bigger

00:40:02.920 question here

00:40:04.020 is the

00:40:04.540 future of

00:40:05.020 South

00:40:05.180 Africa.

00:40:06.180 And this

00:40:06.600 is a

00:40:06.800 controversial

00:40:07.080 thing to

00:40:07.660 say,

00:40:08.060 but it's

00:40:08.880 so obvious

00:40:09.760 that it's

00:40:10.280 not sustainable,

00:40:11.400 it's not

00:40:12.060 going to

00:40:12.560 work,

00:40:13.200 and it's

00:40:13.620 just getting

00:40:14.180 worse.

00:40:15.000 So,

00:40:15.400 the only

00:40:16.040 possible

00:40:16.500 solution

00:40:16.980 is not

00:40:17.580 simply to

00:40:18.140 say we

00:40:18.500 need a

00:40:18.920 different

00:40:19.260 party in

00:40:20.060 power,

00:40:20.420 because the

00:40:20.940 underlying

00:40:21.300 foundations

00:40:21.940 is still

00:40:22.560 problematic.

00:40:24.120 The only

00:40:24.560 possible solution

00:40:25.380 is to move

00:40:26.380 toward a

00:40:26.900 system with

00:40:27.440 subsidiary

00:40:28.160 authorities,

00:40:29.380 which could

00:40:29.880 imply something

00:40:30.700 like a

00:40:31.140 republic for

00:40:31.840 the Afrikaner

00:40:32.440 people,

00:40:32.800 it could

00:40:33.040 imply a

00:40:33.460 kingdom for

00:40:34.000 the Zulu

00:40:34.320 people,

00:40:35.060 it could

00:40:35.400 imply different

00:40:36.040 types of

00:40:37.000 authority,

00:40:37.740 depending on

00:40:38.240 the community.

00:40:39.780 But South

00:40:40.500 Africa is a

00:40:41.020 country made

00:40:41.640 up of a

00:40:42.200 long list of

00:40:42.840 minorities.

00:40:43.760 Unless,

00:40:44.440 if you look at

00:40:44.800 it from a

00:40:45.220 racial perspective,

00:40:46.020 you can say

00:40:46.480 there's a

00:40:46.740 black majority,

00:40:48.820 but the

00:40:49.120 black majority

00:40:49.720 also consists

00:40:51.080 of a variety,

00:40:51.860 as you mentioned,

00:40:52.360 a variety of

00:40:52.920 nations and

00:40:53.520 tribes and so

00:40:54.160 forth.

00:40:54.440 Plus,

00:40:54.940 massive

00:40:55.620 immigration into

00:40:56.620 your country.

00:40:57.160 Yeah,

00:40:57.360 it's a very

00:40:58.680 serious problem.

00:40:59.440 Yeah,

00:40:59.600 we virtually

00:41:00.220 don't have

00:41:00.660 borders in

00:41:01.200 South Africa.

00:41:01.880 Right.

00:41:02.340 A problem,

00:41:03.280 of course,

00:41:03.560 for the

00:41:03.720 country,

00:41:04.000 but also a

00:41:04.600 demographic

00:41:04.940 fact that

00:41:06.520 it's not as

00:41:07.040 if there's

00:41:07.620 this monolithic

00:41:08.560 black majority.

00:41:10.080 There are all

00:41:10.540 kinds of

00:41:10.880 different components

00:41:11.580 of the black

00:41:12.280 majority,

00:41:12.780 right?

00:41:13.100 Yes.

00:41:13.280 They don't

00:41:13.420 necessarily get

00:41:13.920 along.

00:41:14.860 Yeah,

00:41:15.080 yeah.

00:41:15.340 But a lot

00:41:15.720 of Zimbabweans

00:41:16.400 murdered in

00:41:17.280 South Africa.

00:41:18.640 Xenophobic

00:41:19.040 violence.

00:41:19.620 Every now and

00:41:20.040 then there's

00:41:20.420 this upsurge

00:41:21.220 in violence

00:41:21.860 against foreigners.

00:41:23.340 So they get

00:41:23.700 accused.

00:41:24.060 What typically

00:41:24.460 happens is people

00:41:25.360 come in from

00:41:25.840 the north of

00:41:27.420 South Africa,

00:41:28.200 like Malawi,

00:41:28.880 Zimbabwe,

00:41:29.260 and so forth,

00:41:29.860 Zambia and

00:41:30.380 so forth.

00:41:31.120 And then they

00:41:31.620 work and they

00:41:32.220 accept jobs

00:41:32.940 for lower

00:41:33.760 wages.

00:41:34.700 And a lot of

00:41:35.720 them work

00:41:36.040 really hard.

00:41:36.900 So that leads

00:41:37.760 to friction

00:41:38.180 because there's

00:41:38.740 very high

00:41:39.220 unemployment in

00:41:39.980 South Africa

00:41:40.340 already.

00:41:41.320 And so it

00:41:41.680 leads to

00:41:41.980 friction

00:41:42.340 among the

00:41:44.400 local

00:41:44.700 communities.

00:41:45.760 And then

00:41:46.100 every now and

00:41:46.540 then we have

00:41:46.920 this upsurge

00:41:47.660 in very,

00:41:48.960 very brutal

00:41:49.540 xenophobic

00:41:50.340 violence.

00:41:51.200 So yes,

00:41:51.600 the border

00:41:52.000 is virtually

00:41:53.420 non-existent,

00:41:54.240 the border to

00:41:54.720 the north of

00:41:55.180 South Africa.

00:41:55.600 If you've

00:41:56.160 been paying

00:41:56.460 attention,

00:41:57.040 you know

00:41:57.220 that Alp

00:41:57.920 is not

00:41:58.620 just another

00:41:59.000 nicotine

00:41:59.680 pouch.

00:42:00.200 It is

00:42:00.620 literally

00:42:01.300 the best

00:42:02.140 nicotine

00:42:02.700 pouch

00:42:03.080 in the

00:42:04.020 world.

00:42:05.000 And we

00:42:05.520 know

00:42:05.680 because we

00:42:06.240 use it

00:42:06.700 all day

00:42:07.380 long.

00:42:07.740 We've

00:42:07.900 used all

00:42:08.380 of them.

00:42:08.780 Turns out

00:42:09.040 you can

00:42:09.240 actually

00:42:09.420 make

00:42:09.640 money

00:42:09.820 by telling

00:42:10.160 people

00:42:10.400 about

00:42:10.600 Alp.

00:42:11.100 We're

00:42:11.320 launching

00:42:11.600 our

00:42:11.780 affiliate

00:42:12.160 program.

00:42:13.200 If you

00:42:13.380 have an

00:42:13.600 audience,

00:42:14.040 big or

00:42:14.240 small,

00:42:14.520 you can

00:42:14.740 cash in.

00:42:15.280 You earn

00:42:15.400 10%

00:42:16.080 commission

00:42:16.500 on every

00:42:16.980 sale of

00:42:17.560 Alp

00:42:17.760 that you

00:42:18.000 bring in.

00:42:18.920 And to

00:42:19.080 make it

00:42:19.300 even

00:42:19.480 easier,

00:42:19.900 we'll

00:42:20.020 give you

00:42:20.260 a 10%

00:42:20.960 off link

00:42:21.640 for your

00:42:22.000 followers.

00:42:23.060 They save

00:42:23.620 you earn.

00:42:24.040 It's really

00:42:24.320 simple.

00:42:24.740 By the way,

00:42:25.180 compared to

00:42:25.500 all the

00:42:25.660 other products

00:42:26.080 people sell

00:42:26.480 online,

00:42:27.100 Alp is

00:42:27.460 truly good.

00:42:29.340 It's

00:42:29.580 delicious.

00:42:30.640 It is

00:42:30.980 easy to

00:42:31.700 sell because

00:42:32.120 it's

00:42:32.340 heartfelt.

00:42:32.900 So spread

00:42:33.240 the word,

00:42:33.600 get rewarded

00:42:34.080 for it.

00:42:34.620 You can

00:42:34.840 sign up

00:42:35.180 at

00:42:35.340 alppouch.com.

00:42:36.540 It's

00:42:36.780 alppouch.com.

00:42:38.720 A-L-P-P-O-U-C-H

00:42:40.160 dot com.

00:42:41.140 Best

00:42:41.460 nicotine

00:42:41.860 pouch

00:42:42.200 in the

00:42:42.840 world.

00:42:43.020 Don

00:42:46.760 Jr.

00:42:47.120 here,

00:42:47.400 guys.

00:42:47.820 Are you

00:42:48.040 receiving

00:42:48.440 letters from

00:42:48.940 the IRS

00:42:49.440 claiming you

00:42:50.040 owe back

00:42:50.400 taxes?

00:42:51.100 As penalties

00:42:51.640 and interest

00:42:52.280 fees pile up,

00:42:53.020 the IRS

00:42:53.460 gives you

00:42:53.860 no clear

00:42:54.600 path to

00:42:55.140 resolution.

00:42:55.800 Don't speak

00:42:56.260 to them

00:42:56.520 on your

00:42:56.780 own.

00:42:57.300 They are

00:42:57.620 not your

00:42:57.960 friends.

00:42:58.460 To reach

00:42:58.880 a team

00:42:59.400 of licensed

00:43:00.120 tax

00:43:00.540 professionals

00:43:01.020 that can

00:43:01.360 help you

00:43:01.780 reduce,

00:43:02.520 settle,

00:43:02.960 and resolve

00:43:03.440 your tax

00:43:04.000 matters,

00:43:04.460 go to

00:43:04.840 TNUSA.com

00:43:07.100 and check

00:43:07.560 them out.

00:43:07.960 Solve your

00:43:08.280 tax problems

00:43:08.840 today.

00:43:09.360 Call 1-800-780-88888

00:43:11.580 or visit

00:43:12.100 TNUSA.com.

00:43:13.540 That's

00:43:13.800 1-800-780-8888.

00:43:19.120 Big changes

00:43:20.240 are coming

00:43:20.820 for America.

00:43:22.320 Tariffs

00:43:22.640 on imported

00:43:23.360 beef could

00:43:24.080 mean higher

00:43:24.680 prices,

00:43:25.720 supply chain

00:43:26.440 issues,

00:43:27.280 and even

00:43:28.020 more uncertainty

00:43:29.000 about where

00:43:29.560 your food

00:43:30.040 comes from.

00:43:31.480 But here's

00:43:32.260 the good

00:43:32.660 news.

00:43:33.460 You don't

00:43:33.800 have to

00:43:34.120 rely on

00:43:34.720 imports.

00:43:36.040 At Good

00:43:36.500 Ranchers,

00:43:37.380 we're proud

00:43:38.300 to provide

00:43:38.980 100%

00:43:40.200 American meat,

00:43:41.640 no import,

00:43:42.100 no tariffs,

00:43:44.160 no surprises.

00:43:45.740 Just high

00:43:46.400 quality,

00:43:47.220 locally

00:43:47.540 sourced

00:43:48.040 beef,

00:43:49.040 chicken,

00:43:49.720 pork,

00:43:50.380 and seafood

00:43:50.840 delivered right

00:43:51.600 to your door.

00:43:53.160 Right now,

00:43:54.880 use code

00:43:55.880 Tucker to

00:43:56.780 get $25

00:43:57.980 off plus a

00:43:59.300 free cut

00:43:59.780 of meat

00:44:00.140 for a year.

00:44:01.640 That's real

00:44:02.540 savings at a

00:44:03.360 time when

00:44:03.980 prices are

00:44:04.560 only going

00:44:05.120 up.

00:44:06.100 Don't wait.

00:44:07.300 Secure your

00:44:07.920 food supply

00:44:08.660 and support

00:44:09.420 American farmers

00:44:10.340 today at

00:44:11.060 goodranchers.com.

00:44:13.320 American meat

00:44:14.200 delivered.

00:44:17.020 So what would

00:44:18.020 it look like

00:44:18.760 to have

00:44:19.440 autonomous

00:44:20.020 republics,

00:44:21.500 and is

00:44:21.980 that allowed

00:44:22.520 under your

00:44:23.140 94 constitution?

00:44:24.400 I thought

00:44:24.660 there was

00:44:25.180 some

00:44:25.820 provision for

00:44:27.020 that.

00:44:27.300 Well,

00:44:27.860 it's interesting

00:44:28.360 that you

00:44:28.700 know this.

00:44:29.180 Yes.

00:44:29.640 So there's

00:44:30.000 a section

00:44:30.360 in the

00:44:31.360 South African

00:44:31.720 constitution,

00:44:32.440 section 235,

00:44:33.960 that provides

00:44:34.660 for self-determination

00:44:35.840 for communities.

00:44:37.460 Now,

00:44:37.640 there's some

00:44:38.000 ambiguity in

00:44:38.900 terms of how

00:44:39.320 to interpret

00:44:39.900 that section,

00:44:41.080 but there's

00:44:42.280 some constitutional

00:44:42.980 provision for

00:44:43.660 that.

00:44:43.920 And so

00:44:44.960 during the

00:44:45.420 90s,

00:44:46.200 the negotiations

00:44:47.280 for New South

00:44:47.840 Africa,

00:44:48.240 the more

00:44:48.640 conservative

00:44:49.080 groups who

00:44:49.780 were white

00:44:50.460 and black,

00:44:51.200 who were

00:44:51.640 arguing for

00:44:52.140 self-determination

00:44:53.000 were made

00:44:53.720 fun of by

00:44:55.340 the ruling

00:44:56.520 party at the

00:44:57.160 time,

00:44:57.420 the National

00:44:57.800 Party,

00:44:58.580 and the ANC,

00:44:59.340 of course,

00:44:59.760 and also some

00:45:00.540 Westerners.

00:45:01.240 This is just

00:45:01.760 backwards,

00:45:02.340 this idea of

00:45:02.980 governing yourself

00:45:03.880 is somehow an

00:45:04.640 old ancient

00:45:05.340 thing that we

00:45:06.160 should move

00:45:06.740 away from.

00:45:08.120 And part of

00:45:08.940 the problem,

00:45:09.400 part of the

00:45:09.700 reason why they

00:45:10.200 were made fun

00:45:10.740 of is the

00:45:11.140 question is,

00:45:11.740 how do you do

00:45:12.420 that practically?

00:45:13.120 And the only

00:45:14.320 way to

00:45:14.680 practically do

00:45:15.380 that is to

00:45:15.980 have areas

00:45:16.700 where people

00:45:17.180 live concentrated,

00:45:18.420 where people

00:45:19.200 form a de facto

00:45:20.620 majority.

00:45:22.300 And there are

00:45:22.720 such areas,

00:45:23.480 like, for

00:45:23.920 example, when

00:45:24.280 you talk about

00:45:24.700 the Zulus and

00:45:25.280 so forth,

00:45:26.160 the Afrikaner

00:45:26.760 people are

00:45:27.240 pretty much

00:45:27.720 dispersed,

00:45:28.360 although there

00:45:28.720 are some

00:45:29.060 areas where

00:45:29.660 we live

00:45:30.060 more concentrated.

00:45:31.900 But there's,

00:45:32.260 for example,

00:45:32.720 there are some

00:45:33.340 initiatives to

00:45:34.000 get Afrikaners

00:45:34.800 to move

00:45:35.160 closer together,

00:45:36.120 and I think

00:45:36.640 that's a solution

00:45:37.980 that we need

00:45:38.720 to really focus

00:45:39.400 on, is getting

00:45:39.940 the Afrikaners

00:45:40.520 to move

00:45:40.860 closer together.

00:45:41.240 So they're

00:45:41.280 clustered in

00:45:41.740 Pretoria,

00:45:42.320 is my

00:45:42.580 understanding?

00:45:43.180 The majority,

00:45:43.860 yes.

00:45:44.780 Pretoria and

00:45:45.400 then the

00:45:45.640 Western Cape,

00:45:47.320 and the

00:45:47.820 south of the

00:45:48.280 country,

00:45:48.800 and then there's

00:45:49.400 this Orania

00:45:49.960 initiative in

00:45:50.780 the Northern

00:45:51.120 Cape.

00:45:51.620 So tell us

00:45:52.120 about that.

00:45:52.940 What is

00:45:53.260 Orania?

00:45:54.080 So Orania

00:45:54.540 is a cultural

00:45:55.680 community.

00:45:56.620 It's an

00:45:56.780 Afrikaner

00:45:57.260 cultural

00:45:57.580 community.

00:45:58.580 It's fairly

00:45:59.220 small, it's

00:45:59.880 about 3,000

00:46:00.560 people, but

00:46:01.020 it's growing

00:46:01.520 rapidly.

00:46:02.380 It's growing

00:46:02.640 by about 12

00:46:03.420 to 15%

00:46:04.220 per year.

00:46:05.440 And the

00:46:05.740 idea is,

00:46:06.500 it's a

00:46:06.820 culture, it's

00:46:07.240 privately owned.

00:46:08.660 It's a

00:46:09.020 community where

00:46:09.860 the Afrikaner

00:46:10.580 culture can

00:46:11.280 survive and

00:46:12.160 flourish.

00:46:13.100 And it

00:46:13.600 has been

00:46:14.060 growing at

00:46:15.660 quite a

00:46:16.040 pace, even

00:46:16.720 though it's

00:46:17.080 from a

00:46:17.320 small base.

00:46:17.920 But the

00:46:18.140 idea is to

00:46:18.620 say this

00:46:18.960 is an

00:46:19.220 area, we

00:46:20.300 are the

00:46:20.840 majority, and

00:46:22.200 we make our

00:46:22.860 own decisions.

00:46:23.320 We make our

00:46:23.960 own laws, we

00:46:24.620 govern ourselves,

00:46:25.580 we make our

00:46:26.180 own decisions in

00:46:26.820 terms of what

00:46:27.280 happens with our

00:46:27.860 tax money, what

00:46:28.980 happens with our

00:46:30.160 streets, what

00:46:30.940 type of

00:46:31.280 monuments.

00:46:31.560 Do you murder

00:46:31.900 other people or

00:46:32.640 oppress other

00:46:33.120 people?

00:46:34.620 No.

00:46:35.980 Then why, maybe

00:46:37.140 you have an

00:46:37.420 answer to

00:46:37.780 this, a

00:46:39.580 neighborhood, a

00:46:40.240 community of

00:46:41.040 3,000 people,

00:46:42.880 which is tiny,

00:46:43.940 even by South

00:46:45.100 African standards,

00:46:46.160 has received

00:46:47.280 unrelenting

00:46:48.620 negative media

00:46:49.600 attention in the

00:46:50.340 West.

00:46:50.780 Why is that

00:46:52.700 such a moral

00:46:53.720 crime, such an

00:46:54.460 outrage to have a

00:46:55.300 community like

00:46:56.300 that?

00:46:56.440 Yeah, it's

00:46:57.060 bizarre the

00:46:57.820 extent to which

00:46:58.640 Urania has been

00:46:59.360 attacked, especially

00:47:00.460 in the international

00:47:01.300 media.

00:47:02.160 So I spoke with a

00:47:03.360 friend in Europe

00:47:04.200 recently who said

00:47:05.060 to me, I've only

00:47:06.160 read negative things

00:47:07.640 about Urania, but

00:47:08.520 that's why I like

00:47:09.260 it, because I

00:47:10.940 know who's

00:47:11.380 writing this.

00:47:11.860 A lot of us have

00:47:12.320 reached that

00:47:12.680 conclusion.

00:47:14.440 And so in South

00:47:15.680 Africa, there are

00:47:16.280 many traditional...

00:47:17.400 The lying is,

00:47:18.180 just can I just

00:47:18.640 pause and just say,

00:47:19.940 the lying is

00:47:20.540 unsustainable.

00:47:21.720 When, you know,

00:47:22.760 you open up the

00:47:24.080 New York Times and

00:47:24.720 it's a safe bet that

00:47:25.720 whatever they're

00:47:26.180 telling you is the

00:47:26.760 opposite of the

00:47:27.360 truth, then you've

00:47:28.120 reached a point where

00:47:28.780 it's like, why even

00:47:29.440 have media coverage

00:47:30.380 at that point?

00:47:31.240 You know what I

00:47:31.560 mean?

00:47:31.780 Yeah.

00:47:32.300 So in South

00:47:32.920 Africa, there are

00:47:33.420 many cultural

00:47:33.980 communities, like

00:47:34.760 Zulu communities,

00:47:35.620 different...

00:47:35.820 Let's say there are

00:47:36.420 many black cultural

00:47:37.260 communities, and

00:47:37.940 when they are

00:47:38.560 reported on by the

00:47:39.900 media, they would

00:47:40.380 say, this Zulu

00:47:42.740 cultural community

00:47:43.820 so-and-so, or this

00:47:45.380 Posa cultural

00:47:46.200 community is doing

00:47:46.900 this.

00:47:47.200 But when it's

00:47:47.740 Urania, they say

00:47:48.560 it's a whites-only

00:47:49.320 enclave.

00:47:50.160 That's the term they

00:47:51.180 use, even though it's

00:47:51.840 a cultural community.

00:47:53.440 So black communities

00:47:54.340 can have that.

00:47:55.060 What is that?

00:47:55.520 Why the hostility?

00:47:58.340 And that's true

00:47:58.920 globally, by the way.

00:48:00.000 There's no...

00:48:01.100 Any white-majority

00:48:02.120 country, there are

00:48:02.780 very few left.

00:48:05.960 Very few left.

00:48:07.160 But there's just

00:48:08.500 suspect because they

00:48:09.680 exist.

00:48:10.300 What is that?

00:48:11.240 I think it's

00:48:12.140 underpinned by

00:48:12.860 oikophobia, this

00:48:14.180 idea of just hating

00:48:15.180 your own people, and

00:48:16.760 wanting your own

00:48:17.780 people to...

00:48:18.440 It is strange.

00:48:19.280 I'm not mad at

00:48:20.300 China for being

00:48:21.700 99% Chinese, or

00:48:23.900 whatever.

00:48:25.240 I'm not mad at

00:48:26.720 Burundi for being

00:48:28.100 all black.

00:48:28.740 It just doesn't

00:48:29.220 never even enter

00:48:30.080 my mind.

00:48:30.840 What is that?

00:48:31.680 Why is that?

00:48:33.060 I mean, honestly, I

00:48:34.340 guess now we can ask

00:48:35.440 questions like this.

00:48:36.940 Do you have any

00:48:37.520 idea?

00:48:37.840 I honestly think it's

00:48:40.260 underpinned by an

00:48:42.300 enormous sense of

00:48:43.860 guilt within Western

00:48:45.960 society or the

00:48:46.740 Western world, not

00:48:48.060 knowing how to make

00:48:48.900 sense of the Second

00:48:49.720 World War, and

00:48:51.600 being influenced over

00:48:53.460 decades and centuries

00:48:54.720 by enlightened

00:48:55.660 philosophy that talks

00:48:57.860 about how you are the

00:48:59.080 problem and how, you

00:49:00.540 know, you should have a

00:49:01.660 sense of guilt for who

00:49:02.500 you are, and the idea

00:49:03.760 that community and

00:49:05.220 identity is a bad

00:49:06.340 thing, but it's not a

00:49:08.340 bad thing if it's

00:49:09.060 someone else.

00:49:10.280 Well, not only is it

00:49:10.920 not a bad thing, it's

00:49:11.820 required by law.

00:49:13.980 Community and

00:49:14.560 identity, I mean,

00:49:15.260 those are like the

00:49:15.900 buzzwords of the

00:49:16.700 moment, but those

00:49:19.080 are, I mean,

00:49:19.820 basically it's just

00:49:20.460 like everyone hates

00:49:21.260 whites, including a

00:49:22.180 lot of whites, and I

00:49:22.880 just don't understand

00:49:23.580 that.

00:49:24.340 I am white, but I'm

00:49:25.380 kind of agnostic on

00:49:27.400 the question.

00:49:28.660 I kind of like all

00:49:29.580 people.

00:49:30.000 I think they're all

00:49:30.420 created by God, but

00:49:31.500 we're required to

00:49:33.480 pretend this isn't

00:49:34.020 happening, but it is

00:49:34.660 happening.

00:49:35.640 Everybody hates the

00:49:36.300 whites and wants

00:49:37.120 them to die.

00:49:38.760 Where does that come

00:49:39.660 from?

00:49:39.800 I think it's

00:49:40.480 primarily a Western

00:49:41.520 thing.

00:49:42.340 But what's the root

00:49:43.660 of it?

00:49:44.820 I think it's the

00:49:45.320 weirdest thing I've

00:49:45.840 ever seen.

00:49:46.460 Yes.

00:49:46.860 By the way, if

00:49:47.460 everyone wanted

00:49:48.160 Malaysians to die or

00:49:49.520 something, I would

00:49:49.980 say, whoa, whoa,

00:49:50.840 whoa, whoa, whoa.

00:49:52.360 You know, whatever

00:49:53.120 Malaysia has done

00:49:54.120 through the years,

00:49:54.840 like you can't attack

00:49:56.640 people on the basis

00:49:57.420 of their Malaysian-ness.

00:49:58.600 That's just wrong.

00:49:59.340 I would say that,

00:50:00.060 and I would mean it

00:50:00.680 too.

00:50:01.420 Yes.

00:50:01.880 But it's considered a

00:50:02.720 crime to say that

00:50:03.320 about whites.

00:50:03.880 Like, where does

00:50:06.080 that come from?

00:50:06.800 I'm honestly baffled.

00:50:08.140 Do you have any

00:50:08.500 idea?

00:50:08.900 Well, no, I can only

00:50:09.880 speculate.

00:50:10.420 I think some part of

00:50:11.240 this oikophobia, I

00:50:12.340 honestly think

00:50:12.940 enlightenment philosophy

00:50:13.960 has played a big

00:50:14.660 role in this.

00:50:15.240 I think the influence

00:50:18.280 of, you know, ideas

00:50:20.260 about power

00:50:20.980 structures and, you

00:50:22.840 know, all this stuff

00:50:23.420 that's coming from

00:50:24.120 America.

00:50:24.760 It used to come from

00:50:25.380 Europe.

00:50:25.500 Maybe, but the

00:50:25.800 Chinese have an

00:50:26.420 awful lot of power

00:50:27.080 in Asia, and I

00:50:27.780 never heard anybody

00:50:28.440 say you should, like,

00:50:29.880 you know, it's

00:50:30.440 outrageous that, you

00:50:31.660 know, China is 95%

00:50:33.360 Han or something.

00:50:34.200 It's not even a thing.

00:50:35.500 It's something about

00:50:36.500 what, well, as they

00:50:38.080 say in our

00:50:38.400 universities, whiteness

00:50:39.680 is uniquely

00:50:40.960 offensive.

00:50:42.480 It's uniquely, and I

00:50:43.260 don't think that's a

00:50:43.920 product of enlightenment

00:50:45.020 philosophy because, I

00:50:46.520 mean, that was, this

00:50:47.700 is a new thing.

00:50:48.620 This is post-war.

00:50:49.600 The Second World War

00:50:50.220 did this in some way

00:50:51.020 that I don't fully

00:50:51.580 understand.

00:50:52.400 I don't understand at

00:50:53.020 all, actually.

00:50:53.960 I think, so,

00:50:55.460 Alex Day McIntyre

00:50:57.360 has an explanation of

00:50:59.980 how to make sense of

00:51:00.980 what, how we derailed

00:51:03.680 in trying to make sense

00:51:04.800 of the Second World

00:51:05.520 War.

00:51:05.760 I mean, obviously,

00:51:06.260 you know, Hitler was

00:51:06.780 evil and all of that.

00:51:07.520 I mean, no one

00:51:07.900 disagrees with that.

00:51:08.680 Obviously.

00:51:09.000 But, so, so, the

00:51:11.160 wrong lesson from the

00:51:12.400 Second World War is

00:51:13.480 that nationalism is

00:51:14.780 evil, or a sense of

00:51:16.620 pride in your identity

00:51:17.860 is evil.

00:51:18.600 And there are a lot

00:51:19.020 of people who would

00:51:19.560 really like us to

00:51:20.320 believe this, that we

00:51:21.160 need to abolish

00:51:21.900 communal identities.

00:51:24.620 McIntyre's line...

00:51:25.300 Only when they're

00:51:25.820 white.

00:51:26.540 Yes, yes.

00:51:27.520 Yeah, of course.

00:51:28.100 It's actually, I

00:51:28.860 don't think anyone

00:51:29.460 thought the lesson of

00:51:30.140 the war was that

00:51:30.600 nationalism is evil,

00:51:31.660 only that nationalism

00:51:32.500 is when whites do it.

00:51:33.300 Yeah, when whites do

00:51:33.960 it, yeah.

00:51:34.700 So, McIntyre's line

00:51:35.880 is that a sense of

00:51:38.100 communal identity

00:51:39.040 and pursuing what

00:51:39.840 is good for your

00:51:40.480 people is a good.

00:51:42.220 And what went wrong

00:51:43.260 with the Second World

00:51:44.160 War was that Hitler

00:51:45.140 was trying to pursue

00:51:46.240 this good at the

00:51:47.300 expense of all other

00:51:48.400 goods.

00:51:49.080 He was detaching this

00:51:50.100 one thing from

00:51:50.740 everything else.

00:51:51.760 And you cannot do

00:51:52.800 that without committing

00:51:53.720 evil and inflicting

00:51:54.620 evil.

00:51:55.680 And so, I think it's a

00:51:58.760 bizarre situation where

00:51:59.920 we are in currently,

00:52:00.880 but...

00:52:01.460 So, I thought and

00:52:02.740 think that the lesson

00:52:03.980 of the Second World

00:52:04.620 War was that

00:52:05.560 targeting people for

00:52:06.900 violence and

00:52:08.560 discrimination, but

00:52:09.420 especially violence, on

00:52:10.700 the basis of their

00:52:11.780 immutable genetic

00:52:13.360 characteristics, was

00:52:15.120 wrong.

00:52:15.820 Like, that's what I was

00:52:16.700 taught.

00:52:17.240 It's inerrant evil.

00:52:18.700 I believe that now as

00:52:20.060 much as I've ever

00:52:20.700 believed it.

00:52:22.340 And, but it's just

00:52:23.260 crazy to see people say

00:52:25.380 that on the one hand,

00:52:26.500 and then for a lot of

00:52:28.860 people, a lot of our

00:52:29.620 leaders, the lesson of

00:52:30.520 the Second World War

00:52:31.080 was, no, that's good.

00:52:32.740 Actually, you need to

00:52:34.020 target more people on

00:52:35.060 the basis of their

00:52:35.820 immutable ethnic

00:52:36.660 characteristics, their

00:52:37.420 whiteness, and kill

00:52:39.500 them.

00:52:40.900 That's the lesson?

00:52:41.920 That's the opposite

00:52:42.960 lesson.

00:52:43.980 Right?

00:52:44.680 Yeah, of course.

00:52:45.400 Well, so in South

00:52:46.280 Africa, and this is

00:52:47.520 part of the bizarre

00:52:48.620 part of it, is the

00:52:50.060 ruling party in South

00:52:50.800 Africa, they would

00:52:51.360 write in their own

00:52:53.020 policy documents, they

00:52:54.620 say, our ideology is a

00:52:56.740 blend of race,

00:52:57.600 nationalism, and

00:52:58.340 socialism.

00:52:59.440 That's literally what

00:53:00.380 Nazi means.

00:53:01.780 Now, I'm not saying

00:53:02.360 they're Nazis, but in

00:53:03.760 some sense, they're

00:53:04.540 calling themselves

00:53:05.220 Nazis.

00:53:05.640 If they say, we

00:53:06.460 promote a combination

00:53:07.780 of race, nationalism,

00:53:09.020 and socialism.

00:53:09.220 Yeah, I don't think

00:53:09.740 people can hear

00:53:10.420 themselves.

00:53:11.160 I mean, I think even

00:53:13.180 this conversation will

00:53:14.200 be like, oh, that's a

00:53:15.080 Nazi conversation.

00:53:15.880 It's like, no, no,

00:53:16.500 no, no, we're

00:53:17.600 arguing, or I'll speak

00:53:18.600 for myself, I'm

00:53:19.260 arguing against what I

00:53:20.460 thought the core idea

00:53:21.660 was, or the core bad

00:53:24.580 idea in the Second

00:53:25.200 World War, which is

00:53:26.020 that you should

00:53:26.700 attack people, hurt

00:53:28.100 people, because of

00:53:29.120 how they were born.

00:53:30.320 I'm just...

00:53:30.640 Based on who they

00:53:31.300 are.

00:53:31.800 Always been opposed

00:53:32.620 to that, I will

00:53:33.140 always be opposed to

00:53:34.260 that.

00:53:35.240 But now it's like

00:53:36.280 complaining about it

00:53:37.900 makes, I don't know,

00:53:39.300 it's all so...

00:53:40.700 You're not even

00:53:41.160 allowed to say this,

00:53:41.980 ask yourself.

00:53:42.140 It's also fake, it's

00:53:43.420 also fake.

00:53:44.280 Like, it's actually,

00:53:45.240 this is all a cover for

00:53:46.160 something much more

00:53:47.060 sinister that is not

00:53:48.460 really related to the

00:53:49.340 Second World War.

00:53:49.900 Like, I just don't

00:53:50.880 think, because it

00:53:51.200 doesn't make any sense.

00:53:52.340 As an intellectual

00:53:53.180 exercise, you just

00:53:53.920 like, immediately hit a

00:53:54.800 brick wall.

00:53:55.580 Yep.

00:53:55.840 Like, what you're

00:53:56.240 saying is nonsensical.

00:53:57.960 Right?

00:53:59.260 Yeah, well, it's

00:54:01.380 difficult to make sense

00:54:02.280 of it, because it's

00:54:03.040 completely irrational.

00:54:04.220 It's completely

00:54:04.840 irrational.

00:54:05.560 Therefore, I think it's

00:54:07.080 a lie, because it

00:54:08.600 doesn't even, like,

00:54:09.480 you don't even, I

00:54:10.300 don't have especially

00:54:11.080 high IQ, and it's

00:54:11.920 super obvious to me

00:54:13.000 that it doesn't make

00:54:14.080 any sense.

00:54:14.560 So, like, what,

00:54:15.720 really, I guess there's

00:54:16.560 no answer, I don't

00:54:17.480 know the answer, but

00:54:18.740 there's something very

00:54:19.680 deep going on here,

00:54:20.720 where the leaders

00:54:22.600 of every country

00:54:23.280 in the world all

00:54:23.820 of a sudden decide

00:54:24.440 this one ethnic

00:54:25.280 group needs to be

00:54:26.140 killed.

00:54:26.820 Like, what?

00:54:27.600 I think one part of

00:54:28.900 it is something that

00:54:29.500 you've said before,

00:54:30.400 which is affluence.

00:54:32.100 People in the

00:54:33.180 Western world have

00:54:33.840 become very affluent,

00:54:35.000 and unfortunately, as

00:54:36.040 a result of that,

00:54:37.300 very self-centered,

00:54:38.920 and in many ways,

00:54:40.220 they've become

00:54:40.680 disconnected from

00:54:41.620 their communities,

00:54:42.500 disconnected from

00:54:43.340 their tradition,

00:54:44.360 and so forth.

00:54:44.740 Yeah, there's no

00:54:45.040 doubt about that,

00:54:46.120 but I mean, I, you

00:54:46.920 know, spent a lot of

00:54:47.780 time in the Gulf,

00:54:49.620 in the Persian Gulf,

00:54:51.500 the most affluent

00:54:52.240 countries in the

00:54:52.840 world per capita,

00:54:53.980 I think.

00:54:55.300 I mean, they are.

00:54:56.960 And, you know,

00:54:57.920 whatever you think

00:54:58.560 of them, you don't

00:54:59.840 see a lot of Arab

00:55:00.500 leaders being like,

00:55:01.260 we really, we're too

00:55:02.000 Arab.

00:55:03.160 That's the problem,

00:55:04.060 where I hate myself

00:55:04.860 for my Arab-ness.

00:55:05.820 Like, that doesn't

00:55:06.200 even occur to them,

00:55:07.180 to their great credit,

00:55:08.440 by the way.

00:55:09.300 I don't think self-hatred's

00:55:10.680 ever good.

00:55:11.120 I don't think hating

00:55:11.760 anybody on the basis

00:55:12.420 of race is ever good.

00:55:14.500 It's only this one

00:55:15.880 group that does it.

00:55:17.600 I'd like to believe,

00:55:19.280 and I hope that I'm

00:55:20.040 right, that it's a

00:55:21.300 minority within the

00:55:22.440 Western world that

00:55:23.140 really believes this

00:55:23.900 stuff.

00:55:24.220 I think.

00:55:24.740 But they have

00:55:25.340 significant power and

00:55:26.400 influence.

00:55:26.960 Boy, do they.

00:55:27.600 They are the editors

00:55:28.240 of newspapers, they

00:55:29.320 are the prime

00:55:29.800 ministers, they are

00:55:31.220 professors at

00:55:32.160 universities, and so

00:55:33.360 forth.

00:55:33.620 And those are the

00:55:34.380 people who's promoting

00:55:35.600 this type of idea.

00:55:36.500 When I think most

00:55:37.140 hard-working, ordinary

00:55:38.460 people don't fall for

00:55:39.800 this.

00:55:40.120 Well, certainly most

00:55:40.820 authentic Christians

00:55:41.720 reject it out of hand

00:55:43.520 immediately.

00:55:44.580 It's essentially

00:55:45.380 anti-Christian in many

00:55:46.480 ways.

00:55:46.660 Well, it is the

00:55:47.380 definition of anti-Christian,

00:55:48.560 I think.

00:55:49.400 I mean, that's my,

00:55:50.140 what do I know?

00:55:50.900 Don't take theology

00:55:51.480 advice from me, but

00:55:52.260 that's certainly my

00:55:53.560 truest, deepest belief

00:55:55.380 that this is immoral,

00:55:58.300 you know, no matter who

00:55:59.200 it's done to.

00:55:59.860 Yep.

00:56:00.520 So one, I should have

00:56:01.560 said this at the

00:56:01.940 outset, but one of the

00:56:03.980 reasons there's been

00:56:04.940 this real change in

00:56:06.960 people's willingness in

00:56:07.880 the West to talk about

00:56:09.220 what's happening in

00:56:09.980 South Africa in an

00:56:10.780 honest way, not with the

00:56:12.840 false pieties of

00:56:13.700 Desmond Tutu was so

00:56:14.700 great, whatever

00:56:15.680 Desmond, you know,

00:56:16.400 you think of Desmond

00:56:16.920 Tutu, not much, but

00:56:18.780 we were required to

00:56:20.480 talk about South

00:56:21.060 Africa in a very

00:56:21.820 specific way and to

00:56:23.480 repeat certain

00:56:24.320 cliches at really at

00:56:25.700 gunpoint.

00:56:27.120 And that's changed in

00:56:28.880 the past couple of

00:56:29.840 months, and it's

00:56:30.600 really changed due to

00:56:32.320 a South African

00:56:33.320 emigre called Elon

00:56:35.060 Musk.

00:56:36.040 This is my

00:56:36.820 perspective, you tell

00:56:37.500 me yours, but he

00:56:38.440 has made it possible

00:56:39.640 through X, but also

00:56:40.900 through statements he's

00:56:41.620 made on X, that

00:56:42.840 to say the obvious,

00:56:43.700 which is this is a

00:56:44.340 crime against a

00:56:45.980 beleaguered minority

00:56:46.720 and, you know, this

00:56:47.420 is racism against

00:56:48.440 human beings, and

00:56:49.100 it's wrong.

00:56:50.760 Do you feel that?

00:56:52.640 Yes, so I don't

00:56:54.020 know how much of

00:56:54.920 what is in his

00:56:55.720 biography by

00:56:56.760 Isaacson is true,

00:56:58.060 but it does seem

00:56:58.700 from his biography

00:56:59.340 that he's had some

00:57:00.800 bad experiences

00:57:01.640 growing up in

00:57:02.320 South Africa, which

00:57:03.980 is unfortunate.

00:57:05.220 And we were, we're

00:57:07.860 still not sure quite

00:57:08.700 how attached he still

00:57:09.800 is to South Africa

00:57:10.580 as a country, but

00:57:11.240 looking at his X and

00:57:12.260 his comments, it's

00:57:13.020 very clear that he's

00:57:13.880 interested.

00:57:15.060 And the strange

00:57:16.380 thing is, even

00:57:16.940 though some people

00:57:17.540 are very angry with

00:57:18.420 him for speaking

00:57:19.040 about South Africa,

00:57:19.700 the only thing that

00:57:20.680 he's really doing is

00:57:22.020 he's picking up a

00:57:23.080 mirror and he's

00:57:23.940 saying, look at

00:57:24.620 what's happening in

00:57:25.260 South Africa.

00:57:25.860 And he's just, he's

00:57:27.300 retweeting videos from

00:57:29.040 rallies in South

00:57:30.280 Africa.

00:57:30.820 Exactly.

00:57:31.700 He's literally just

00:57:32.680 saying to people, look

00:57:33.460 at this stuff that's

00:57:34.200 happening in South

00:57:34.800 Africa.

00:57:35.500 What do you think of

00:57:36.320 this?

00:57:36.600 Are you okay with

00:57:37.360 this?

00:57:37.460 No, I think, well, a

00:57:38.900 lot of people, I

00:57:39.520 think I can speak for

00:57:40.880 a lot of people in

00:57:41.780 saying that we're

00:57:42.380 really, really

00:57:42.920 grateful for, for

00:57:44.120 what Elon Musk is

00:57:45.060 doing to shed light

00:57:46.780 on what is happening

00:57:47.560 in South Africa.

00:57:47.940 It must be so weird

00:57:49.100 to live in a country

00:57:50.160 that has received so

00:57:51.340 much attention from

00:57:52.620 Western media, so

00:57:53.660 much attention.

00:57:55.140 I mean, there's no

00:57:55.540 other country in

00:57:56.040 Africa where your

00:57:56.640 average American knows

00:57:57.580 the name of three

00:57:58.320 famous people.

00:57:59.700 You know what I

00:58:00.360 mean?

00:58:00.620 There's not even

00:58:01.680 close.

00:58:02.340 Name three famous

00:58:03.680 people from, you

00:58:04.660 know, Congo, no,

00:58:06.380 you know, but every

00:58:08.280 American knows about

00:58:09.260 Nelson Mandela,

00:58:09.840 probably Woody

00:58:10.300 Mandela, Desmond

00:58:11.280 Tutu.

00:58:12.760 Jan Smits was also

00:58:13.660 very big, who

00:58:15.420 became this Boer

00:58:16.020 general who was a

00:58:17.040 advisor to Churchill.

00:58:18.940 He joined the

00:58:19.560 English in the, I

00:58:20.420 think, in the First

00:58:20.880 World War, like,

00:58:21.620 right, you know.

00:58:22.820 Yes, First and

00:58:23.820 Second World War.

00:58:24.840 Right, but the

00:58:25.340 First World War was,

00:58:26.740 you know, not even

00:58:27.700 15 years after the

00:58:28.780 Boer War, so that

00:58:29.660 was a pretty

00:58:30.100 remarkable decision

00:58:31.040 that he made.

00:58:31.920 I don't think most

00:58:32.660 people are that in

00:58:33.800 tune, but.

00:58:34.320 Yep.

00:58:34.660 They know the big

00:58:35.240 outlines, but of

00:58:36.940 what happened post

00:58:37.840 94, and they know

00:58:39.400 all about apartheid

00:58:40.340 and all that, but

00:58:42.040 it must be so

00:58:43.240 weird to be living

00:58:44.060 in this country

00:58:44.700 where all this

00:58:46.080 stuff is happening

00:58:46.720 and nobody is

00:58:48.480 saying anything

00:58:48.920 about it.

00:58:49.660 Yeah, it's

00:58:50.760 crazy.

00:58:51.540 It really is.

00:58:52.500 And I have to

00:58:53.960 say, the last few

00:58:54.880 months has been

00:58:55.540 quite a ride in

00:58:56.920 terms of what we,

00:58:57.820 you know, the

00:58:58.440 executive order

00:58:59.580 signed by President

00:59:00.520 Trump and

00:59:01.260 statements coming

00:59:01.900 from the U.S.

00:59:02.520 Tell us about

00:59:03.520 that executive

00:59:04.000 order, if you

00:59:04.460 don't mind.

00:59:04.920 So, the executive

00:59:05.580 order is a very

00:59:06.940 strong reprimanding

00:59:08.440 of what the South

00:59:09.060 African government

00:59:09.740 is doing.

00:59:11.140 It says that the

00:59:12.080 South African

00:59:12.460 government is,

00:59:13.300 well, as Trump

00:59:13.860 said, is treating

00:59:14.600 certain sections of

00:59:15.700 society very badly.

00:59:19.740 And that the U.S.

00:59:21.420 have a call, that's

00:59:21.980 the Trumpiest thing

00:59:23.000 ever said.

00:59:25.800 And the U.S.

00:59:26.520 will not stand for

00:59:27.260 this.

00:59:27.740 And so, it boils

00:59:28.920 down to sanctions

00:59:30.260 in an important

00:59:31.340 way, which is

00:59:32.360 not, on one part

00:59:33.960 of it says that

00:59:34.740 they will grant

00:59:35.620 refugee status to

00:59:36.820 Afrikaners if they

00:59:38.280 want to go to the

00:59:39.000 U.S.

00:59:40.040 Which I don't think,

00:59:41.300 in all fairness,

00:59:41.880 we're really grateful

00:59:42.660 for the public

00:59:44.460 stance taken by the

00:59:45.760 U.S.

00:59:46.060 And in a certain

00:59:46.820 sense, they

00:59:47.740 haven't gone far

00:59:48.360 enough, but in a

00:59:49.860 certain sense, I

00:59:50.560 don't think the

00:59:51.360 granting of refugee

00:59:52.600 status is much of

00:59:54.380 a solution.

00:59:55.280 Some people will

00:59:56.000 take that up, but

00:59:57.560 that's why I told

00:59:58.800 you the story of

00:59:59.660 the Battle of

01:00:00.240 Blood River and

01:00:00.880 the vow.

01:00:01.380 We are culturally

01:00:02.260 very, very attached

01:00:03.620 to South Africa.

01:00:05.860 And so, most of

01:00:06.800 I think your family

01:00:07.320 got to South Africa

01:00:08.500 around the time my

01:00:09.060 family got to the

01:00:09.580 United States.

01:00:10.660 Hundreds of years.

01:00:11.480 This is my country.

01:00:12.460 I think I'm

01:00:12.880 ninth generation.

01:00:14.760 And so,

01:00:15.620 I also have a

01:00:16.560 mother of English

01:00:17.160 descent, and I'm

01:00:17.800 also, unlike you,

01:00:18.860 I'm ashamed of it.

01:00:21.120 Sorry, just kidding.

01:00:22.180 Sort of, not really.

01:00:23.340 But, but, yeah, no,

01:00:25.160 of course, I mean,

01:00:25.620 it's your country.

01:00:26.440 I mean, what, at

01:00:27.420 that point, what, you

01:00:28.600 know.

01:00:28.740 So, I think, I think

01:00:29.860 what a better response

01:00:32.260 from the U.S.

01:00:32.900 could be is to take a

01:00:35.360 firm stance against what

01:00:36.300 is happening in terms

01:00:37.480 of what the South

01:00:37.940 African government is

01:00:38.680 doing, but then to

01:00:40.980 say how can the U.S.

01:00:42.400 support minority

01:00:43.440 groups in South Africa

01:00:44.360 who are really working

01:00:45.340 for some form of

01:00:46.220 self-determination.

01:00:47.360 I think America should

01:00:49.160 recognize that it does

01:00:50.820 have part in the

01:00:53.600 problem in terms of

01:00:54.820 what happened

01:00:55.220 historically.

01:00:55.680 Are you kidding?

01:00:56.320 Yes, it does.

01:00:57.000 Big time.

01:00:57.720 Yes, and therefore,

01:00:58.920 it's reasonable, and I

01:01:00.480 think it's fair, and I'm

01:01:01.880 hesitant to say this

01:01:02.760 because I'm not an

01:01:03.360 American, but I think

01:01:04.600 it's reasonable to say

01:01:05.580 that America has some

01:01:06.540 form of a moral

01:01:07.200 responsibility.

01:01:08.220 Not to fix South

01:01:09.160 Africa, but at least to

01:01:10.440 try to rework this mess

01:01:13.540 that has been created

01:01:14.380 because it was involved

01:01:15.620 in creating this mess.

01:01:16.560 We're, we've mobilized

01:01:17.720 our State Department to

01:01:18.580 defend, quote, trans

01:01:19.720 rights in the Donbass,

01:01:21.260 okay?

01:01:21.820 We've weighed into

01:01:22.640 every sectarian

01:01:24.260 conflict in this world

01:01:26.320 for the past 80 years.

01:01:27.860 Yeah, I think we can

01:01:28.500 certainly say that a

01:01:30.600 minority group targeted

01:01:31.700 for genocide in a

01:01:32.800 country we've been

01:01:33.300 involved in really

01:01:34.140 intimately for my entire

01:01:35.480 life, that that group

01:01:36.700 has a right not to be

01:01:37.880 killed and to have some

01:01:38.660 measure of self-determination.

01:01:39.720 I think we can do that.

01:01:40.640 Yeah.

01:01:40.720 That's not too big.

01:01:41.380 Absolutely.

01:01:42.080 Right?

01:01:42.640 Yeah.

01:01:43.020 And the solution, I would

01:01:44.200 say the most sustainable

01:01:45.100 solution is to help such

01:01:46.360 communities to govern

01:01:47.540 themselves, to have

01:01:48.380 self-determination.

01:01:50.160 And it's not only,

01:01:51.400 obviously it would be in

01:01:52.220 our interest, but I think

01:01:53.740 it's also in the interest

01:01:54.620 of the West and of

01:01:55.920 America.

01:01:56.560 Well, just on principle,

01:01:57.340 like every other group in

01:01:58.460 the world has the right to

01:01:59.960 its own homeland except

01:02:01.120 white people?

01:02:02.080 Like what?

01:02:02.880 Yeah.

01:02:03.200 Like tell me, just explain

01:02:04.760 to me how that makes

01:02:05.580 sense.

01:02:06.280 Either no group has the

01:02:07.680 right or every group has

01:02:09.340 the right.

01:02:09.660 It's really that simple.

01:02:10.420 And if you want to say no

01:02:11.140 group has the right, okay.

01:02:12.560 You might even convince me.

01:02:13.900 I don't know.

01:02:14.320 I'm not a race guy, actually,

01:02:15.500 by my temperament at all.

01:02:17.040 I'd kind of like to ignore

01:02:18.040 it.

01:02:18.660 But as long as some groups

01:02:19.740 have a right to self-determination,

01:02:21.600 then every group has a right.

01:02:22.900 It's that simple.

01:02:24.160 Yes.

01:02:24.280 And if there's a special

01:02:25.060 carve-out where one group

01:02:26.100 doesn't have a right, you

01:02:26.940 have to explain to me why

01:02:27.880 that group doesn't have that

01:02:28.680 right.

01:02:29.020 Yeah.

01:02:29.520 Is that fair?

01:02:30.320 No, it's absolutely fair.

01:02:31.660 Well, I think South Africa

01:02:32.700 is a...

01:02:33.780 What?

01:02:34.020 I mean, what the hell is...

01:02:34.960 Why are we playing along with

01:02:36.600 this nonsense?

01:02:37.100 Yeah, this narrative has

01:02:39.760 become this massive stream

01:02:41.340 that is turned into

01:02:42.440 rapids on a river

01:02:43.980 that just pulls everyone

01:02:45.580 along.

01:02:46.020 And this narrative just says

01:02:47.340 if you're white, then there's

01:02:48.360 inherently something wrong

01:02:49.380 with you.

01:02:49.760 It doesn't make any sense,

01:02:51.020 and it's leading toward a

01:02:52.440 really bad conclusion,

01:02:53.640 obviously, as it has for...

01:02:55.940 Every other group

01:02:57.400 targeted in this way

01:02:58.880 has really suffered in a bit...

01:03:00.760 And there are a lot of them.

01:03:01.860 Okay?

01:03:02.300 It's not...

01:03:02.900 There are a lot of them.

01:03:03.940 Yep.

01:03:04.360 And it never ends up well.

01:03:06.480 And I just don't know

01:03:07.700 why we're playing along

01:03:08.800 where you're not even

01:03:09.900 allowed to say

01:03:10.540 you haven't been.

01:03:11.480 I don't care anymore,

01:03:12.260 obviously.

01:03:13.480 But, again,

01:03:15.080 either every group

01:03:16.700 has a right to self-determination

01:03:17.980 or no group does.

01:03:19.360 You can't have this system

01:03:20.900 where, you know,

01:03:22.280 some groups do

01:03:22.880 or all groups do

01:03:23.780 but one...

01:03:24.500 No, no, no.

01:03:25.020 It's all or nothing on this.

01:03:26.400 Yeah, well, I can guarantee...

01:03:28.040 Tell me how I'm wrong.

01:03:28.740 No.

01:03:29.580 Well, I can guarantee you

01:03:31.260 that when I get back home,

01:03:33.300 I'm going to be in a lot of trouble

01:03:34.460 for this interview.

01:03:35.360 I don't know why, though.

01:03:36.600 I mean, like,

01:03:36.900 what's the counter-argument?

01:03:38.220 I don't really get it.

01:03:39.700 Like, what is the counter-argument?

01:03:41.260 There's only one group

01:03:42.400 on the entire face of the planet

01:03:43.640 that doesn't have the right

01:03:44.480 that every other group has?

01:03:45.740 Like, tell me how.

01:03:47.740 It's...

01:03:48.140 It's really bizarre.

01:03:49.600 Maybe there's a good answer.

01:03:50.560 I'm waiting for it.

01:03:51.700 No, well, we don't know

01:03:52.620 what the answer is.

01:03:53.320 So there is no answer.

01:03:54.360 And so because there is no answer,

01:03:56.180 the way that uniformity

01:03:57.400 is maintained

01:03:59.640 is just through threats.

01:04:00.540 Like, shut up!

01:04:02.080 You're a bad person

01:04:03.160 for saying that.

01:04:03.980 You're a Nazi.

01:04:04.480 It's like, no, no, no.

01:04:05.140 I hate the Nazis.

01:04:06.080 I'm going to speak for myself.

01:04:06.840 I hate the Nazis.

01:04:07.620 Of course.

01:04:07.880 I hate the idea

01:04:08.740 that people are attacked

01:04:10.140 for something they can't control,

01:04:11.520 like how they're born,

01:04:12.420 their genetics.

01:04:13.100 I just don't believe in that.

01:04:14.040 I never will.

01:04:14.580 I'm a Christian.

01:04:15.000 I don't believe in it.

01:04:16.040 So you can call me

01:04:16.500 whatever you want.

01:04:17.100 I'm actually making

01:04:17.640 the opposite case.

01:04:19.360 And I haven't done anything

01:04:20.800 to be ashamed of.

01:04:22.060 And if defending

01:04:23.100 the right of people

01:04:24.460 not to be murdered

01:04:25.340 because of how they were born

01:04:27.220 is a crime,

01:04:28.240 then I'll plead to it.

01:04:29.280 But I actually think

01:04:31.220 that the only thing

01:04:32.420 that people currently in charge

01:04:34.240 of most of the world,

01:04:35.500 certainly of the West,

01:04:36.280 are good at

01:04:36.740 is seizing the moral high ground.

01:04:38.560 And they don't deserve it.

01:04:39.760 They haven't earned it.

01:04:40.940 They're rotten.

01:04:41.920 Their ideas are rotten.

01:04:42.980 And they don't deserve

01:04:44.140 to lecture the rest of us

01:04:45.220 about our moral inferiority

01:04:47.060 while they're endorsing

01:04:48.780 the murder of people

01:04:50.200 for how they were born.

01:04:51.300 Sorry.

01:04:51.600 It's a house of cards.

01:04:52.760 Yeah.

01:04:53.300 What is a house of cards?

01:04:54.420 It's exactly right.

01:04:55.220 Yeah, it's built

01:04:56.400 and it's a very shining

01:04:57.980 house of cards

01:04:58.740 and it's very proud

01:04:59.540 of its accomplishments,

01:05:00.640 but it's not sustainable.

01:05:02.600 So South Africa

01:05:03.420 has been a victim

01:05:05.100 of Western imperialism

01:05:06.860 in many ways,

01:05:08.400 ideologically currently,

01:05:10.300 ideological imperialism,

01:05:11.660 but also,

01:05:12.820 and this is interesting,

01:05:14.220 the ANC

01:05:14.800 that's governing

01:05:15.300 South Africa today

01:05:16.140 was founded

01:05:17.080 just after the unionization

01:05:18.840 of South Africa

01:05:19.480 in 1910.

01:05:21.000 And they said

01:05:21.480 that this was

01:05:22.600 one of the major triggers

01:05:23.680 that sparked us

01:05:24.660 to start this movement.

01:05:26.460 And the unionization

01:05:27.300 was after the Boer War,

01:05:28.880 before the union,

01:05:30.600 South Africa was

01:05:31.540 a variety

01:05:32.920 of different republics

01:05:34.100 and colonies

01:05:34.620 governing themselves.

01:05:36.220 And unionization

01:05:37.020 effectively meant

01:05:37.960 that all of these

01:05:38.640 different subsidiary

01:05:40.360 authorities

01:05:40.880 were combined

01:05:41.780 into one big

01:05:43.060 South Africa.

01:05:43.820 As we know it today,

01:05:44.460 the borders of South Africa

01:05:45.520 were actually drawn

01:05:46.280 pretty much by the British

01:05:47.620 in 1910.

01:05:49.260 And the ANC

01:05:49.900 were vehemently opposed.

01:05:50.860 They have a long history

01:05:51.740 of border drawing,

01:05:52.760 I notice.

01:05:53.680 You see this

01:05:54.080 when you have

01:05:54.420 these completely

01:05:54.980 straight borders.

01:05:57.200 That's artificial.

01:05:59.120 And so the borders

01:06:00.160 we have for South Africa

01:06:01.080 today

01:06:01.520 was a product

01:06:02.880 of Western imperialism.

01:06:04.680 And now those in power

01:06:05.780 would very much like

01:06:06.800 to maintain these borders

01:06:08.120 because they have control.

01:06:09.800 And so if we are truly

01:06:11.140 anti-colonialism

01:06:13.000 and anti-imperialist,

01:06:14.620 we should return

01:06:15.600 to a position

01:06:16.100 where people

01:06:16.560 govern themselves.

01:06:17.380 We should rethink

01:06:18.080 the borders.

01:06:18.940 You'll never be allowed

01:06:19.880 to do that.

01:06:20.400 I mean,

01:06:20.540 let's just cut right

01:06:21.240 to the no BS part of this.

01:06:23.680 That will not be allowed.

01:06:25.200 It's never been allowed.

01:06:26.780 You will need

01:06:27.820 either to get to force,

01:06:29.500 which I pray you don't

01:06:30.440 because I hate that.

01:06:31.860 I hate killing.

01:06:33.700 Or you will need

01:06:34.800 the assistance

01:06:35.280 of a powerful

01:06:36.660 outside force

01:06:37.380 that makes it happen.

01:06:39.560 That's just a fact.

01:06:40.560 Is that fair to say?

01:06:41.600 Yeah, no,

01:06:42.000 I think it's fair to say.

01:06:43.160 I mean...

01:06:43.340 Right?

01:06:43.620 So anyone who says,

01:06:44.560 I want to kill you,

01:06:46.500 you know,

01:06:46.780 kill the boar,

01:06:48.740 you're subhuman,

01:06:50.440 those are not people

01:06:51.580 who are going to say,

01:06:52.020 yeah, yeah,

01:06:52.280 go ahead

01:06:52.840 and create your own

01:06:53.620 independent state

01:06:54.460 and not bother anybody

01:06:55.240 because you're going to be

01:06:56.460 way more successful

01:06:57.400 and prosperous

01:06:58.040 than they are

01:06:58.900 and they're going to hate you

01:06:59.940 on the basis of envy,

01:07:01.200 of course.

01:07:01.680 That's already happening.

01:07:02.780 And we have to ask them nicely

01:07:04.340 to make certain concessions

01:07:05.960 towards us.

01:07:06.280 No, I get it.

01:07:06.780 It's not going to happen.

01:07:07.800 So what is your plan?

01:07:10.400 Well, I think the plan is to,

01:07:13.540 firstly,

01:07:13.960 to be well-organized communities,

01:07:16.660 to have a very strong sense

01:07:18.040 of community,

01:07:18.680 a sense of pride

01:07:19.540 in who we are

01:07:20.100 to remain Christian

01:07:21.340 and have a strong faith,

01:07:23.980 strong family ties

01:07:25.580 and so forth.

01:07:26.000 That's where it starts.

01:07:26.940 And then other than that,

01:07:28.000 the second step,

01:07:28.880 you might say,

01:07:29.400 the plan is to just create

01:07:32.000 certain realities

01:07:32.880 on ground level.

01:07:33.620 So it's one thing to say,

01:07:34.740 you know,

01:07:34.940 we want more authority

01:07:36.820 or more self-determination,

01:07:38.160 but you have to,

01:07:38.720 in a sense,

01:07:39.720 create that

01:07:40.360 so that what you have created

01:07:42.420 can be recognized.

01:07:44.100 There's no point in saying,

01:07:45.340 well,

01:07:45.680 you guys can have your own place,

01:07:47.920 but that place doesn't exist.

01:07:50.020 So I think,

01:07:50.960 I think what the Afrikaner people

01:07:52.100 need to do is,

01:07:53.360 in a large,

01:07:53.880 to a large extent,

01:07:54.540 build their own self-determination.

01:07:56.180 And I think that,

01:07:56.720 that's what we intend to do,

01:07:59.240 but it would help a lot

01:08:00.280 if we can get recognition

01:08:01.460 for this pursuit

01:08:02.300 as a legitimate pursuit.

01:08:04.160 So you don't think,

01:08:05.240 I sort of just

01:08:06.500 didn't ask you to pause

01:08:08.060 and I should have.

01:08:08.880 You began this segment

01:08:10.240 of the conversation

01:08:10.780 by saying,

01:08:11.640 the current scheme,

01:08:13.080 the current arrangement

01:08:13.600 is not going to work.

01:08:14.380 Yep.

01:08:16.680 I think most people,

01:08:18.280 certainly I as an outsider,

01:08:19.400 instinctively kind of

01:08:20.380 want it to work.

01:08:21.060 Well,

01:08:22.680 it's a good story.

01:08:23.560 It sounds like a good story.

01:08:24.520 It's a good story.

01:08:24.900 Yeah,

01:08:25.100 it is.

01:08:25.740 I mean,

01:08:26.040 I'll admit to being

01:08:27.440 kind of a dopey liberal

01:08:28.280 in some ways,

01:08:29.000 I really prefer the idea

01:08:32.140 of,

01:08:32.320 you know,

01:08:32.440 people living together

01:08:33.120 in harmony.

01:08:33.680 It's just,

01:08:33.940 I just feel that way.

01:08:34.580 I can't help it.

01:08:35.380 Maybe that's my

01:08:35.900 enlightenment legacy

01:08:38.620 or something.

01:08:40.740 I also think

01:08:41.320 you should deal with reality

01:08:42.000 and I definitely

01:08:42.840 don't think you should

01:08:43.420 be allowed to kill people

01:08:44.480 because of the way

01:08:44.920 they look,

01:08:45.340 period.

01:08:45.540 So,

01:08:47.140 by the way,

01:08:47.720 how did these people,

01:08:49.420 why did they go on TV

01:08:50.600 like they're on the right side?

01:08:52.520 They're like endorsing genocide.

01:08:54.760 Like,

01:08:54.920 I don't understand

01:08:56.080 how they've been allowed

01:08:57.140 to get away with

01:08:58.100 being on Winnie Mandela's side

01:09:00.180 and feeling self-righteous.

01:09:01.740 I just don't get that.

01:09:02.700 I think it's disgusting.

01:09:03.620 Whatever I said that five times,

01:09:04.560 I can't say it enough.

01:09:06.280 But,

01:09:06.760 how do you know

01:09:08.680 it won't work?

01:09:09.700 Like,

01:09:10.260 ANC obviously

01:09:11.060 is a criminal gang,

01:09:12.460 totally incompetent.

01:09:13.580 You don't have electricity

01:09:14.380 a lot of the time.

01:09:15.000 Like,

01:09:15.140 it's not working.

01:09:15.760 They're just stealing everything.

01:09:16.780 Got it.

01:09:17.520 Stealing the copper

01:09:18.180 out of the wires.

01:09:19.560 But,

01:09:20.060 there's not another

01:09:20.820 political coalition

01:09:21.940 that could run it effectively?

01:09:23.360 No.

01:09:23.880 So,

01:09:24.440 you mentioned electricity.

01:09:26.040 In Johannesburg,

01:09:26.940 the mayor,

01:09:27.440 just a few days ago,

01:09:28.360 announced that people

01:09:29.100 should just wait seven days

01:09:30.480 and then they will have water.

01:09:32.320 So,

01:09:32.760 it's not just an electricity problem.

01:09:34.540 There's a water problem.

01:09:35.300 There's a water problem.

01:09:36.400 You're going to have a food problem

01:09:37.560 at some point.

01:09:38.320 Well,

01:09:38.580 if the farmers are targeted,

01:09:39.820 yes.

01:09:40.500 So,

01:09:40.680 there are many reasons

01:09:41.700 why it's not working

01:09:44.020 and why

01:09:44.560 it won't work.

01:09:45.880 And,

01:09:46.060 well,

01:09:46.280 everything you can think of

01:09:47.340 points to that direction.

01:09:49.040 One is just the data.

01:09:50.540 As I said,

01:09:50.980 you can look at the levels

01:09:52.380 of how crime is increasing,

01:09:53.980 how unemployment is increasing,

01:09:55.340 how government service delivery

01:09:56.380 is increasingly failing,

01:09:57.600 everything,

01:09:58.040 everything.

01:09:59.420 Honestly,

01:10:00.120 health,

01:10:00.480 how health is deteriorating,

01:10:03.080 everything except tax collection.

01:10:05.320 That's one aspect of it.

01:10:06.860 Another aspect of it

01:10:07.820 is just the extent

01:10:08.660 to which people

01:10:09.400 in South Africa

01:10:10.060 are turning their back

01:10:11.440 on politics.

01:10:12.700 There's this political vacuum

01:10:14.100 in South Africa

01:10:14.720 and you can see it,

01:10:15.500 for example,

01:10:16.600 with the extent

01:10:17.500 to which people

01:10:18.180 have stopped voting,

01:10:19.400 how voters' turnout

01:10:21.540 has dropped significantly

01:10:22.760 in elections.

01:10:23.700 People just don't

01:10:24.300 interest it.

01:10:25.560 They vote reluctantly,

01:10:26.680 those who do.

01:10:27.860 So,

01:10:28.200 that's one aspect of it.

01:10:29.060 Interesting.

01:10:30.500 Why do you think

01:10:31.700 that because they feel hopeless?

01:10:33.080 Because they feel

01:10:33.800 the political establishment

01:10:35.260 is completely disconnected.

01:10:37.080 They don't,

01:10:38.300 it doesn't resonate with them.

01:10:40.240 They don't,

01:10:40.640 people vote for parties

01:10:41.640 even though

01:10:42.020 they don't really like them,

01:10:43.740 but they think this is,

01:10:44.640 of all the parties,

01:10:45.280 I don't like any of them,

01:10:46.260 but this one is the least bad,

01:10:48.300 so I'll vote for that one.

01:10:49.600 So,

01:10:49.840 there's a complete disconnect

01:10:50.860 between the politicians

01:10:51.880 or the political elite

01:10:53.280 in South Africa,

01:10:53.900 even the opposition parties

01:10:55.260 and the people.

01:10:57.140 And so,

01:10:57.400 there's this political vacuum

01:10:58.580 that has developed

01:10:59.440 and this vacuum is filled

01:11:01.200 as my friend

01:11:02.580 Adam Stonsel in South Africa

01:11:03.760 says,

01:11:04.140 either by the good guys

01:11:05.120 or the bad guys.

01:11:06.300 It's filled by the bad guys

01:11:07.820 in terms of organized crime.

01:11:09.300 So,

01:11:09.440 we have these mafias

01:11:10.520 and gangs

01:11:11.380 coming to the fore

01:11:12.200 with significant power

01:11:13.480 to such an extent

01:11:14.640 that the government

01:11:15.180 is afraid of them

01:11:15.960 or it can be filled.

01:11:17.220 Boy,

01:11:17.300 that is the story globally,

01:11:18.660 isn't it?

01:11:19.060 Yeah.

01:11:19.680 Well,

01:11:20.000 yeah,

01:11:20.340 I think it is.

01:11:21.020 The drug cartels

01:11:21.720 are one of the most powerful

01:11:22.560 governments in the world

01:11:23.380 and they're not even a government.

01:11:24.420 It's incredible,

01:11:25.260 yeah.

01:11:25.380 So,

01:11:25.520 we have a construction mafia,

01:11:26.880 for example.

01:11:27.440 If you build a shopping center,

01:11:29.440 the construction mafia

01:11:30.520 turns up

01:11:31.100 and they tell you,

01:11:31.860 you need to employ our people

01:11:33.300 or else we're going to

01:11:34.180 sabotage your building

01:11:35.160 and stuff like that.

01:11:36.200 And it's a regular thing.

01:11:38.360 And you can't fight them.

01:11:39.300 No,

01:11:39.580 you can't.

01:11:40.060 You can't fight them.

01:11:41.100 But the vacuum can be filled

01:11:43.320 by the good guys

01:11:44.060 and that's well-organized communities

01:11:45.920 who take control

01:11:47.180 of what is important to them.

01:11:48.900 And so,

01:11:49.200 the future is very,

01:11:50.080 and that's what

01:11:50.600 analysts

01:11:51.600 and scenario

01:11:52.960 analysts

01:11:54.000 and so forth

01:11:54.520 have been saying

01:11:55.080 that the future

01:11:56.420 is one of deterioration

01:11:57.660 where you will have communities

01:11:59.220 who will be

01:12:00.600 much worse off

01:12:02.220 than they are today

01:12:02.940 because of the bad guys

01:12:04.640 filling the void

01:12:05.280 and you might have

01:12:06.740 flourishing communities

01:12:07.700 because of good guys

01:12:08.720 filling the void.

01:12:09.380 And so,

01:12:11.240 that's another reason

01:12:12.100 but I think

01:12:12.460 the most important

01:12:13.220 fundamental

01:12:14.140 underlying reason

01:12:15.160 why it's not sustainable

01:12:16.140 is it's a political system

01:12:17.540 that is detached

01:12:19.080 from the reality

01:12:19.860 in South Africa.

01:12:20.620 The reality is

01:12:21.400 the distance from Cape Town,

01:12:23.120 the south,

01:12:23.540 to the north

01:12:24.100 of South Africa

01:12:24.780 is the distance

01:12:25.500 from Rome to London.

01:12:26.820 So,

01:12:27.120 it's a big country.

01:12:29.120 Number one,

01:12:30.000 but it's not homogenous

01:12:31.340 by any means.

01:12:32.300 It's very diverse.

01:12:33.600 There's 11 official languages

01:12:35.260 in South Africa.

01:12:35.360 Right.

01:12:35.540 It's not just,

01:12:36.020 just to restate,

01:12:36.760 it's not just black and white

01:12:37.800 at all.

01:12:38.340 No, no, no, no.

01:12:38.920 But no, it's certainly not.

01:12:39.700 There's this Indian community,

01:12:40.800 there's what we call

01:12:41.860 colored community

01:12:42.720 in South Africa

01:12:43.320 and there are various

01:12:44.660 different tribes,

01:12:45.840 you could say,

01:12:46.520 or cultural communities

01:12:48.080 among black South Africans

01:12:49.640 and among white South Africans.

01:12:51.360 So,

01:12:51.640 it's very diverse,

01:12:52.820 different languages,

01:12:53.700 different cultures.

01:12:55.580 And now,

01:12:57.020 we have this political system

01:12:58.140 that just says

01:12:58.800 you have individual rights.

01:13:00.680 And in some ways,

01:13:01.880 the constitution,

01:13:02.620 even though it was

01:13:03.320 very much celebrated

01:13:04.440 when it was adopted,

01:13:05.560 it was called

01:13:06.040 the best constitution

01:13:07.000 in the world

01:13:07.720 and the most liberal,

01:13:09.000 most democratic,

01:13:09.700 and so forth.

01:13:10.660 The constitution says-

01:13:11.560 It guarantees everything,

01:13:12.460 but you get nothing.

01:13:13.060 Yeah, exactly.

01:13:13.680 That's exactly it.

01:13:14.220 So, we have what they call

01:13:14.960 third generation rights,

01:13:16.380 first, second, and third.

01:13:17.400 It's a very vast network

01:13:19.500 of rights that you have

01:13:20.880 in theory.

01:13:22.340 But then the question is,

01:13:24.100 so there's this idea

01:13:25.000 that the highest authority

01:13:26.280 is the constitution,

01:13:28.140 but it's not possible

01:13:29.340 for a written document

01:13:30.500 to have the highest authority.

01:13:31.940 The highest authority

01:13:32.720 is with the person

01:13:33.540 who gets to interpret it.

01:13:35.360 So, for example,

01:13:39.840 section 25

01:13:40.900 of the constitution

01:13:41.840 in South Africa,

01:13:42.500 which the government

01:13:43.040 is trying to change,

01:13:43.940 it's a private property

01:13:44.860 rights clause.

01:13:45.860 They want to change it.

01:13:47.220 But currently,

01:13:47.940 it says the government

01:13:48.640 can expropriate your property

01:13:50.620 if it's in the public interest.

01:13:52.780 Now, if you ask me

01:13:53.580 as a Westerner,

01:13:54.400 when is it in public interest

01:13:56.260 to expropriate property?

01:13:57.520 It would be something like

01:13:58.360 they have to build

01:13:59.020 a big highway

01:13:59.700 or maybe there's

01:14:01.100 a military emergency

01:14:02.060 or something like that.

01:14:03.260 If you ask a judge

01:14:05.320 who is founded

01:14:06.040 in this ideology

01:14:07.160 we've just spoken of,

01:14:08.680 they would say

01:14:09.100 it's in the public interest

01:14:09.960 for white people

01:14:10.600 not to own land.

01:14:12.020 So, it's a question

01:14:13.240 of interpretation.

01:14:14.140 You can have

01:14:14.440 a wonderful document,

01:14:15.420 but it boils down

01:14:16.320 to how do you interpret it?

01:14:18.300 And that's why I'm saying

01:14:19.300 it's not compatible

01:14:20.380 with realities

01:14:21.520 on ground level.

01:14:22.620 And, you know,

01:14:23.440 there have been

01:14:24.760 many law fairs

01:14:25.780 in South Africa,

01:14:26.360 many, many, many.

01:14:27.080 South Africa is a very good example

01:14:28.220 of political court cases.

01:14:29.820 And we've won many

01:14:30.640 and we've lost many.

01:14:32.060 But it's a ship

01:14:35.580 that is sinking.

01:14:36.740 That's the fact.

01:14:37.060 Well, and it all seems fake.

01:14:38.480 I mean, it seems like

01:14:39.420 and I, again,

01:14:40.840 one of the reasons

01:14:41.200 I'm so fascinated

01:14:41.880 by your country

01:14:42.480 is I think it's

01:14:43.480 on a trajectory

01:14:45.720 that I recognize

01:14:47.440 as an American.

01:14:49.040 So, you have

01:14:49.660 these legacy institutions

01:14:50.800 that sort of go

01:14:51.700 through the kabuki

01:14:52.320 of dispensing justice,

01:14:53.900 but it's not justice actually.

01:14:54.960 It's totally disconnected

01:14:55.720 from justice.

01:14:56.160 It doesn't mean anything.

01:14:57.280 Yes.

01:14:58.060 And you have

01:14:58.820 this constitution

01:14:59.460 which is beautiful,

01:15:00.460 which is, you know,

01:15:02.140 ignored.

01:15:02.720 The only power resides

01:15:03.680 in the people

01:15:04.060 who interpret it,

01:15:05.500 as you said.

01:15:06.300 Yeah.

01:15:07.440 And so then you reach

01:15:09.160 kind of the end point

01:15:10.060 or the most recent end point,

01:15:11.180 which is the idea

01:15:11.920 that whites can't own land.

01:15:13.220 Can you explain this?

01:15:14.340 So, they have been trying

01:15:15.680 to change

01:15:16.300 the South African constitution,

01:15:17.740 the property rights clause,

01:15:18.840 to empower the government

01:15:19.760 to expropriate private property

01:15:21.620 without compensation.

01:15:22.880 That's the buzzword.

01:15:23.840 Just steal the land.

01:15:25.200 Yeah.

01:15:25.820 They call it EWC.

01:15:27.360 It's expropriation

01:15:27.980 without compensation,

01:15:28.720 but it's confiscation

01:15:29.540 of property.

01:15:30.120 That's what it is.

01:15:30.760 Well, how is expropriation

01:15:31.880 without compensation

01:15:32.560 different from stealing?

01:15:33.720 No, exactly.

01:15:35.400 But...

01:15:35.560 It's just shoplifting.

01:15:36.960 I mean, what?

01:15:38.520 It's flabbergasting

01:15:39.880 to see the extent

01:15:40.920 to which, again,

01:15:42.240 academics and analysts

01:15:43.560 and journalists

01:15:44.400 are rushing to the defense

01:15:45.860 of the South African government.

01:15:47.060 In South Africa there?

01:15:47.640 Yes.

01:15:48.240 So, here's one of the many

01:15:49.760 bizarre things

01:15:50.460 that they would say.

01:15:51.080 They would say,

01:15:51.560 this is all a lie.

01:15:52.500 You guys are lying.

01:15:53.560 It's not expropriation

01:15:54.940 without compensation.

01:15:56.420 It's expropriation

01:15:57.360 with compensation,

01:15:58.640 but compensation can be nil.

01:16:00.880 So, it can be zero compensation.

01:16:02.900 So, it's not happening,

01:16:03.700 but it's a good thing that it is.

01:16:04.920 Yeah, that's it.

01:16:05.560 That's exactly it.

01:16:06.420 As always, right.

01:16:07.160 And so, the president

01:16:08.780 has just signed

01:16:09.420 the expropriation bill

01:16:10.480 in South Africa,

01:16:11.260 which is now...

01:16:12.280 Which they now...

01:16:13.240 He signed it.

01:16:14.140 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:16:14.760 So, there's still

01:16:17.680 an attempt to change

01:16:18.380 the constitution

01:16:18.800 and there's now

01:16:19.340 a new bill

01:16:19.880 in process.

01:16:22.580 It was just announced,

01:16:23.400 I think, a week ago

01:16:24.080 that they want to pass

01:16:25.060 through parliament

01:16:25.500 that says that 80% of...

01:16:27.900 That's what it boils down to.

01:16:29.200 That 80% of land

01:16:30.260 or property in South Africa

01:16:31.200 must be owned

01:16:31.940 by black people.

01:16:33.280 So, because it says

01:16:34.280 it must be racially representative.

01:16:36.740 And so,

01:16:37.280 I want to tell you

01:16:38.160 a quick story about this

01:16:39.040 because it sort of

01:16:39.660 highlights the ideology.

01:16:41.020 I was at a land summit

01:16:42.500 in South Africa

01:16:43.340 and a spokesperson

01:16:45.120 for the Department

01:16:46.120 of Land Reform

01:16:47.720 spoke

01:16:48.120 and it was very clear

01:16:49.660 from his speech

01:16:50.380 that the problem is

01:16:51.700 white people owning land.

01:16:53.080 It was a racial thing.

01:16:54.080 It was very clear

01:16:54.580 but it's coloured

01:16:56.080 with words like

01:16:57.120 restitution

01:16:57.880 and correcting

01:16:59.320 historic injustices

01:17:00.600 and so forth.

01:17:01.920 And so,

01:17:02.200 I asked him

01:17:02.620 at this summit,

01:17:03.260 I said,

01:17:03.620 so,

01:17:03.900 here's an example

01:17:05.040 and what would

01:17:06.440 the government's

01:17:07.100 position be on this?

01:17:08.080 The example is

01:17:09.000 a white guy

01:17:10.320 owns a farm,

01:17:11.400 the government

01:17:11.840 takes it from him

01:17:12.680 to correct

01:17:13.420 historic injustices

01:17:14.600 and they give it

01:17:16.100 to a black guy

01:17:16.700 and it's a black farmer

01:17:17.720 and maybe a year

01:17:19.560 or two down the line

01:17:20.340 this black farmer

01:17:21.120 decides he doesn't

01:17:21.960 want to be a farmer anymore,

01:17:23.160 he wants to sell his land

01:17:24.300 and the buyer is white

01:17:26.040 and now there's

01:17:26.920 a white farmer again.

01:17:28.660 What's the government's

01:17:29.500 position on this?

01:17:30.340 And the spokesperson

01:17:31.040 for the department

01:17:31.960 says in that case

01:17:33.160 the correction

01:17:34.340 of the injustice

01:17:35.500 has been reversed.

01:17:38.080 It's completely bizarre

01:17:40.840 and what's interesting

01:17:42.440 is we've seen

01:17:43.080 this exact movie

01:17:44.900 frame by frame

01:17:46.040 right next door

01:17:47.440 in Zimbabwe,

01:17:48.580 formerly Rhodesia,

01:17:49.620 which was one of

01:17:50.800 the most prosperous

01:17:51.400 countries in Africa,

01:17:52.500 one of the big tobacco

01:17:53.220 producers in Africa.

01:17:54.400 It's very sad

01:17:55.800 what happened

01:17:56.200 to that country.

01:17:56.740 Well,

01:17:56.920 it's shocking

01:17:57.480 but it's again,

01:17:58.360 it's like organized

01:17:59.860 government sponsored

01:18:00.500 racism doesn't work

01:18:01.540 and I don't care

01:18:02.140 how often

01:18:03.340 the New York Times

01:18:04.560 defends it,

01:18:05.380 it's always the same

01:18:06.400 and that is like

01:18:09.940 right next door

01:18:10.900 to you

01:18:11.220 and you have

01:18:11.740 a refugee crisis

01:18:12.560 in your country

01:18:13.400 because of it

01:18:14.260 and

01:18:15.380 well,

01:18:15.660 our government

01:18:16.420 are ruling

01:18:16.860 so what do they

01:18:17.320 say to that?

01:18:17.960 No,

01:18:18.120 they say that

01:18:18.860 Robert Mugabe

01:18:19.460 is a hero

01:18:20.060 and that ZANU PF

01:18:21.640 the party

01:18:22.600 is a good party

01:18:24.620 and it's a liberation

01:18:25.820 force and we respect

01:18:26.920 them.

01:18:27.300 Okay,

01:18:27.500 so again,

01:18:28.800 no one wants

01:18:29.280 to use the term

01:18:30.160 but this is

01:18:32.000 genocide.

01:18:33.280 I mean,

01:18:33.480 that's what that is.

01:18:34.040 It's like targeting

01:18:34.880 a group of people

01:18:35.940 for extinction

01:18:36.660 elimination

01:18:37.140 on the basis

01:18:38.460 of immutable characteristics

01:18:39.820 like I don't know

01:18:40.520 what,

01:18:40.840 is there another

01:18:41.180 genocide definition

01:18:42.560 I'm not aware of?

01:18:44.420 Well,

01:18:44.740 I think you can say

01:18:46.400 there are threats

01:18:47.080 of that happening.

01:18:48.460 There's not a genocide

01:18:49.220 happening in South Africa.

01:18:49.940 No,

01:18:50.100 I'm not saying there is.

01:18:50.900 I'm saying

01:18:51.340 that's where it's going.

01:18:52.740 Like what's the other

01:18:53.320 end point here?

01:18:55.020 Well,

01:18:55.400 yes.

01:18:55.920 You're not human,

01:18:56.620 you can't own land,

01:18:57.400 you should be killed.

01:18:59.260 What am I missing?

01:18:59.760 Yes,

01:18:59.960 and yeah,

01:19:00.480 if you own land

01:19:01.200 by definition

01:19:01.980 that's illegitimate

01:19:03.060 regardless of whether

01:19:03.880 you bought the land,

01:19:04.660 it doesn't matter

01:19:05.060 how you got the land.

01:19:06.100 Because of your race.

01:19:07.360 Because of your race,

01:19:07.980 yes.

01:19:08.220 If we can't say

01:19:09.220 that's wrong,

01:19:10.880 then,

01:19:11.860 you know,

01:19:12.260 anyone who can't

01:19:12.960 say that's wrong,

01:19:13.500 anyone who makes excuses

01:19:14.380 for that is a dangerous person.

01:19:15.940 I don't know what else to say.

01:19:17.860 Put another group in there.

01:19:18.900 I don't care what group it is.

01:19:20.540 So the ANC in South Africa

01:19:21.920 wanted to,

01:19:22.780 they have this process

01:19:23.620 of name changes.

01:19:24.900 And by the way,

01:19:25.460 this targeting of statues

01:19:26.580 came from South Africa.

01:19:27.620 It's happening in America.

01:19:28.740 It started in South Africa,

01:19:29.740 you know,

01:19:29.900 burning down statues

01:19:30.760 and so forth.

01:19:31.860 So,

01:19:32.340 and they've had

01:19:32.940 this long process

01:19:33.600 of name changes

01:19:34.420 and one thing

01:19:35.420 they wanted to

01:19:36.160 change the street

01:19:38.140 in which the US embassy

01:19:39.320 is in South Africa

01:19:40.400 to Fidel Castro Avenue.

01:19:42.580 That's one story.

01:19:43.700 The other one is

01:19:44.220 they wanted to change

01:19:45.140 one of the main streets

01:19:46.020 in Pretoria

01:19:46.560 to name it after Mao Tse Tung.

01:19:48.980 And then some of the

01:19:49.560 opposition parties said,

01:19:50.600 are you crazy?

01:19:51.500 Do you know what

01:19:52.020 Mao Tse Tung did?

01:19:53.440 And the response was,

01:19:54.340 remember,

01:19:55.180 Mao was never convicted

01:19:56.300 of any crime.

01:19:57.080 It does seem

01:20:02.460 not only like

01:20:03.260 one of the worst governments

01:20:04.020 in the world,

01:20:04.320 but one of the dumbest also.

01:20:07.800 Well,

01:20:08.500 so I think,

01:20:09.360 I think there's part,

01:20:10.660 there's some explanation

01:20:11.760 as to why

01:20:12.560 the South African government

01:20:13.560 has gone so off the rails.

01:20:14.660 And it's that they've gotten

01:20:15.600 a free pass for decades.

01:20:17.540 Yeah, that's right.

01:20:18.100 Because of this narrative,

01:20:18.960 they could do and say

01:20:19.920 whatever they want.

01:20:21.020 They got no criticism

01:20:22.020 or very little criticism

01:20:23.440 or very careful criticism.

01:20:25.740 And that's why I think

01:20:26.600 they've gone so ballistic

01:20:28.200 after the recent comments

01:20:30.420 by Trump

01:20:31.100 and people like Elon Musk

01:20:32.280 and so forth.

01:20:32.640 Oh, have they?

01:20:33.260 I'm sorry.

01:20:33.900 I don't follow it that closely.

01:20:35.300 Have they,

01:20:35.800 those comments were noticed

01:20:36.780 in South Africa?

01:20:37.060 Oh, yeah, absolutely.

01:20:38.200 Yeah, it's the biggest story

01:20:39.820 in South Africa at the moment.

01:20:41.020 Really?

01:20:41.620 And what are they saying?

01:20:42.980 Well, they're saying

01:20:43.880 that we've,

01:20:45.180 the organizations

01:20:45.940 that I was involved with

01:20:46.920 at the time

01:20:47.340 have committed treason,

01:20:48.360 that we've been charged

01:20:49.080 for treason.

01:20:49.920 You've been charged

01:20:50.360 with treason?

01:20:51.020 Yeah.

01:20:51.500 For what?

01:20:52.560 For speaking,

01:20:53.420 well, among others,

01:20:54.220 for me speaking with you

01:20:55.280 about what's happening.

01:20:56.160 That's treason?

01:20:56.940 Yeah, because it's

01:20:57.920 bad-mouthing your country.

01:20:59.720 That's the argument.

01:21:00.980 Damn.

01:21:01.420 So I don't know

01:21:01.920 if it was this,

01:21:03.880 one of the opposition parties

01:21:05.320 who filed the charges.

01:21:05.440 I wanted to go to Cape Town

01:21:06.580 for Christmas

01:21:07.160 just on vacation.

01:21:08.220 I didn't have time in the end,

01:21:09.880 but probably shouldn't go.

01:21:12.660 Is that what you're saying?

01:21:13.600 No, no, you should come

01:21:14.520 to South Africa.

01:21:15.300 No, you should definitely come.

01:21:16.580 It's funny.

01:21:17.900 I don't know

01:21:18.460 if much will come

01:21:19.800 from the treason charges,

01:21:21.000 but that's certainly

01:21:21.640 the action.

01:21:22.640 But you've been charged

01:21:23.700 with treason.

01:21:24.100 Yeah, there were

01:21:24.740 official complaints

01:21:26.140 filed at the police.

01:21:27.280 Yes, yes.

01:21:28.560 What's the penalty

01:21:29.120 for treason in South Africa?

01:21:30.660 It would be imprisonment.

01:21:31.800 We don't have the death penalty.

01:21:34.140 No, they just

01:21:34.880 necklace you.

01:21:36.440 It's informal.

01:21:38.020 Well, I'm honestly,

01:21:39.420 seriously,

01:21:39.800 I'm more concerned

01:21:40.500 if the question is about safety,

01:21:42.640 about mob justice

01:21:43.860 in South Africa

01:21:45.040 than the actual government

01:21:46.700 coming off to you.

01:21:47.680 Of course.

01:21:48.440 So what does that look like?

01:21:50.500 Well, we have,

01:21:53.360 I think you reported on this

01:21:54.840 in 2021,

01:21:56.640 I think when there was

01:21:57.280 this massive riots

01:21:58.420 in South Africa.

01:22:00.540 In Durban.

01:22:01.520 In Durban.

01:22:02.300 I remember that.

01:22:03.300 Yeah, it sort of spilled out

01:22:04.520 to Gauteng,

01:22:05.620 to Johannesburg,

01:22:06.260 to a lesser extent.

01:22:08.280 And it's just people,

01:22:09.540 it's almost like,

01:22:10.240 you know,

01:22:10.600 smelling blood

01:22:11.320 and becoming extremely violent

01:22:12.900 and so forth.

01:22:13.560 And people join in

01:22:14.460 by the thousands.

01:22:15.280 I've seen that

01:22:16.240 with my own eyes

01:22:16.920 a couple of times.

01:22:18.220 Yeah, it's really scary.

01:22:20.140 So someone,

01:22:20.680 a friend from Europe

01:22:21.340 once asked me,

01:22:22.000 are you not afraid

01:22:22.560 that the government's

01:22:24.240 going to come to your house

01:22:25.200 and take your stuff?

01:22:26.180 And my honest answer is,

01:22:27.380 not that much.

01:22:28.880 I'm more concerned

01:22:29.720 about a mob

01:22:30.360 showing up.

01:22:31.620 So then what do you do?

01:22:33.680 Well, if you are alone,

01:22:35.080 you can't do anything.

01:22:36.280 If you're a well-functioning,

01:22:37.660 well-organized community,

01:22:38.740 then the community,

01:22:39.480 you can call people

01:22:40.380 on the radio,

01:22:41.020 you can get the community

01:22:42.740 to take a stance.

01:22:44.720 And I think that's one of the things.

01:22:45.900 So you don't get lynched.

01:22:47.080 Yes.

01:22:47.780 You've got a lot of lynchings

01:22:48.800 and stuff.

01:22:49.200 I mean,

01:22:49.400 again,

01:22:50.420 add it to the irony file.

01:22:52.260 I mean,

01:22:52.440 South Africa's like

01:22:52.960 the world capital of lynching.

01:22:54.840 Yes.

01:22:55.380 Oh, I noticed.

01:22:56.160 Yeah.

01:22:56.800 It's not so much

01:22:57.680 white people who are targeted.

01:22:58.720 I'm aware.

01:22:59.400 No, blacks.

01:23:00.680 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:23:01.340 Yeah, that certainly.

01:23:02.440 It has happened

01:23:03.040 in the previous dispensation.

01:23:04.760 It's still happening

01:23:05.400 to an extent,

01:23:06.620 not as much as in the past,

01:23:08.020 but people don't know

01:23:08.780 that it's still happening.

01:23:10.280 To people accused of crimes.

01:23:11.900 Yeah, and it's partly

01:23:12.920 due to the fact

01:23:13.520 that the police is absent.

01:23:14.820 Right.

01:23:15.000 So, especially in townships,

01:23:16.840 someone is a rapist

01:23:18.260 and the police doesn't show up,

01:23:19.820 doesn't do anything,

01:23:20.580 and then the local community

01:23:22.200 just deals with him.

01:23:23.880 That type of thing happens.

01:23:25.340 In a very brutal way.

01:23:27.460 Yes, yes.

01:23:29.020 Yeah, it does happen

01:23:29.800 in a brutal way.

01:23:30.900 Yeah.

01:23:32.240 Yeah.

01:23:33.360 I've noticed.

01:23:34.420 Like, pretty shocking.

01:23:35.300 Like, almost like

01:23:35.760 I wouldn't want to describe it.

01:23:36.880 Yeah.

01:23:37.340 Yeah, I mentioned

01:23:38.080 the necklace murders before.

01:23:39.320 So, we have that.

01:23:40.240 And it's the same

01:23:40.840 with the xenophobic violence.

01:23:42.160 It's very unfortunate.

01:23:43.920 And if we had

01:23:45.000 a well-functioning police service,

01:23:47.020 maybe that would have helped,

01:23:48.820 but we don't.

01:23:49.680 So, in South Africa,

01:23:51.240 we can check the numbers.

01:23:53.100 I'm pretty sure

01:23:53.640 the private security sphere

01:23:55.240 in South Africa

01:23:55.760 is almost as big

01:23:57.000 as private security in America,

01:23:59.100 but America is much larger.

01:24:00.980 Private security in South Africa

01:24:02.300 is more than double

01:24:04.440 the police and the army combined.

01:24:06.680 If you add the police

01:24:07.620 and the army up together

01:24:08.840 and you multiply it by two,

01:24:11.180 private security is

01:24:11.980 the amount of private security officers

01:24:13.720 in South Africa

01:24:14.240 or security guards is...

01:24:15.960 Do you have the right

01:24:16.760 of self-defense?

01:24:17.840 The right to defend yourself

01:24:18.760 and your family?

01:24:20.080 Yes, we do have the right

01:24:20.940 to self-defense.

01:24:21.580 We can own firearms,

01:24:22.520 although it's not as easy

01:24:23.460 as in America.

01:24:24.520 Yes.

01:24:24.880 But you can do that.

01:24:26.820 And you can get arms,

01:24:27.680 especially through

01:24:28.300 a private security company.

01:24:30.040 There's some room

01:24:30.940 to make sure

01:24:31.820 that you can protect yourself.

01:24:33.480 And does it work?

01:24:35.240 Yes.

01:24:36.060 Yes.

01:24:36.460 In terms of the farm murders,

01:24:37.840 we've seen that statistically,

01:24:39.560 that in communities

01:24:41.580 where areas or communities

01:24:43.240 where people are well-organized,

01:24:44.620 where they have radios,

01:24:45.420 where they drive patrols,

01:24:46.580 where they are trained,

01:24:47.840 there's a decrease in farm murders.

01:24:49.740 You can clearly see that.

01:24:50.980 Actually, in the last few years,

01:24:52.640 the farm murder numbers

01:24:53.860 have come down a bit.

01:24:56.040 And it's not because

01:24:57.160 the incitement has gotten better.

01:25:00.700 It's not because the police

01:25:01.780 is more efficient.

01:25:03.120 It's because local communities

01:25:04.740 have become much more involved

01:25:06.540 with their own safety.

01:25:08.880 And so that's certainly

01:25:10.000 one of the most important

01:25:11.040 building blocks of this solution.

01:25:12.260 So what,

01:25:12.940 now that the president,

01:25:14.540 I'm using air quotes again

01:25:15.660 around president,

01:25:16.340 I mean, the whole system is fake.

01:25:17.780 Obviously, it doesn't affect justice.

01:25:19.220 It doesn't improve

01:25:19.880 the lives of its citizens.

01:25:21.680 It's in no sense

01:25:22.560 illegitimate government.

01:25:24.260 And by the way,

01:25:24.660 it's not the only

01:25:25.260 illegitimate government

01:25:26.100 in the world.

01:25:27.620 But anyway,

01:25:29.500 what happens

01:25:30.720 when they try,

01:25:33.180 the government tries

01:25:34.080 to put this law into effect,

01:25:36.520 to try to act on it?

01:25:37.580 You know,

01:25:37.820 the government shows up

01:25:38.520 at your house as you can't,

01:25:39.900 you know,

01:25:40.740 you've lived in the same plot

01:25:41.880 for a hundred years.

01:25:42.620 You can't have it

01:25:43.120 because you're white.

01:25:43.640 We're taking it.

01:25:44.300 Like what,

01:25:44.660 do people comply?

01:25:46.640 No, no,

01:25:47.680 people won't comply.

01:25:49.160 No, we,

01:25:49.640 I mean,

01:25:49.860 that's partly why

01:25:50.520 I told this story

01:25:51.280 at the beginning

01:25:51.800 is the Afrikaner people

01:25:53.240 and the farmers

01:25:53.820 are very stubborn.

01:25:55.620 This,

01:25:56.060 in Afrikaans,

01:25:56.900 we say hardkoppig

01:25:57.680 or hardheaded.

01:25:59.040 So this idea.

01:25:59.860 Well, farmers,

01:26:00.500 you have to be stubborn

01:26:01.200 to be a farmer

01:26:01.760 in the first place.

01:26:02.620 Yes.

01:26:03.040 And especially a farmer

01:26:04.020 in South Africa.

01:26:04.580 I mean,

01:26:05.460 it's easier.

01:26:06.040 Yes, exactly.

01:26:07.620 So it's a common trope

01:26:09.460 among farmers

01:26:10.080 to say that

01:26:10.760 I would rather die

01:26:11.580 on my farm

01:26:12.200 than to hand it over

01:26:13.220 to the government.

01:26:14.980 And so I think

01:26:15.780 if they really try

01:26:16.840 to act on it,

01:26:18.340 which they haven't tried,

01:26:19.540 there are land invasions

01:26:20.740 in South Africa,

01:26:21.240 but it's not so much

01:26:22.160 the government,

01:26:22.820 it's mobs and gangs

01:26:24.020 and so forth

01:26:24.600 invading people's land.

01:26:26.160 But if they really try

01:26:27.360 to act on these attempts

01:26:28.540 at expropriation,

01:26:29.560 there's going to be

01:26:30.160 a massive backlash.

01:26:31.560 And that's,

01:26:32.060 there's no doubt.

01:26:33.240 So what they would say is,

01:26:34.540 this is actually

01:26:35.420 what the government says,

01:26:36.380 that we need to do

01:26:38.660 what happened

01:26:40.000 in Zimbabwe,

01:26:41.540 but without violence.

01:26:44.160 But that's how

01:26:45.200 they would argue it.

01:26:46.300 They actually say

01:26:46.720 we need to do

01:26:47.080 what happened in Zimbabwe?

01:26:48.200 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:26:48.960 But this time

01:26:49.540 without violence.

01:26:49.700 That's one of the worst

01:26:50.340 crimes of my lifetime.

01:26:51.640 Yeah, well,

01:26:52.020 they say it publicly.

01:26:53.000 Yeah, you can find it online.

01:26:54.520 And so the argument is,

01:26:55.960 but we are,

01:26:56.800 we're going to do it

01:26:57.300 a bit better.

01:26:58.320 We're going to do it

01:26:58.940 without violence.

01:26:59.540 But what that means

01:27:00.880 is we're going to do

01:27:02.300 what happened in Zimbabwe

01:27:03.520 and you are not going

01:27:04.500 to resist.

01:27:05.340 That's what it means.

01:27:06.260 But obviously,

01:27:06.740 people will resist

01:27:07.680 when they try to do that.

01:27:09.280 There's no doubt about it.

01:27:11.380 But I do think

01:27:12.200 the government

01:27:12.580 is very incompetent.

01:27:13.800 You know,

01:27:13.940 they have these

01:27:14.400 very radical ideas.

01:27:16.360 I don't know

01:27:17.080 if they have the competency

01:27:18.040 to actually go through.

01:27:20.400 That's the upside.

01:27:21.160 I lived in Washington, D.C.

01:27:22.280 almost my whole life.

01:27:23.800 And that was absolutely

01:27:24.920 true there.

01:27:26.080 You know,

01:27:26.280 the government make all these,

01:27:27.240 local government

01:27:27.700 make all these threatening noises,

01:27:28.980 do this,

01:27:29.400 do that,

01:27:29.720 do the other thing.

01:27:30.880 It's against the law

01:27:31.480 to do this,

01:27:32.080 whatever.

01:27:32.600 And you just kind of ignore,

01:27:33.420 people just ignored it.

01:27:35.640 So there are

01:27:36.680 some business organizations

01:27:37.960 in South Africa

01:27:38.640 who now use the term

01:27:40.380 maximum appropriate

01:27:42.460 non-compliance.

01:27:43.620 That's what they encourage

01:27:44.700 private companies to do.

01:27:46.540 So it's a form

01:27:47.300 of civil disobedience.

01:27:48.520 It's with all these BEE,

01:27:50.020 that's these

01:27:50.500 black empowerment laws.

01:27:51.680 Just say,

01:27:52.600 we're just not going to comply.

01:27:53.840 I know someone

01:27:54.480 who had a thriving business.

01:27:56.220 He built himself

01:27:56.900 in South Africa

01:27:57.900 and the government

01:27:58.880 showed up and said,

01:27:59.460 you're handing half

01:28:00.200 your business

01:28:00.680 to your new partner

01:28:01.740 who didn't do anything.

01:28:03.120 He would just show up

01:28:03.560 and collect the money

01:28:04.280 and it's just,

01:28:04.940 they stole half his business.

01:28:06.780 Because it's all theft.

01:28:07.760 I mean,

01:28:07.860 it doesn't,

01:28:08.540 I noticed that

01:28:09.100 black South Africans

01:28:09.980 haven't gotten richer

01:28:10.760 in the last 30 years.

01:28:11.440 And the government

01:28:12.460 owns the land,

01:28:13.160 most of the land

01:28:13.780 that they expropriate.

01:28:14.560 They don't give it to people.

01:28:15.820 It goes to the government.

01:28:16.800 So what if you were to say,

01:28:18.600 like,

01:28:19.160 how about no?

01:28:20.300 You have no legitimacy

01:28:21.360 and you haven't been here

01:28:23.740 any longer

01:28:24.060 than I've been here

01:28:24.740 and you have,

01:28:26.500 I mean,

01:28:27.120 and I have guns too,

01:28:28.040 so like,

01:28:28.380 I'm not participating.

01:28:29.120 How's that?

01:28:29.540 Yeah.

01:28:30.020 Well,

01:28:30.400 civil disobedience

01:28:31.220 can be a wonderful thing

01:28:32.280 and we've had some examples

01:28:33.540 of successful

01:28:34.200 civil disobedience campaigns

01:28:35.540 in South Africa

01:28:36.320 where the government

01:28:37.460 had this,

01:28:37.940 they call it

01:28:38.280 the ETOL system.

01:28:39.140 It's like a big tax system

01:28:40.960 on the highways

01:28:41.620 that just,

01:28:42.540 it's an electronic tax

01:28:43.580 toll system that,

01:28:45.240 but people just buy

01:28:46.020 the thousands,

01:28:47.240 tens of thousands

01:28:47.920 or hundreds of thousands

01:28:48.800 just refuse to comply

01:28:50.680 to get the tags

01:28:51.920 and so forth.

01:28:52.420 And eventually

01:28:52.800 they had to stop it

01:28:53.560 because even though

01:28:54.640 it was law,

01:28:55.380 people just didn't do it.

01:28:56.940 And the same with COVID.

01:28:58.020 COVID was a good example.

01:28:59.340 I love that.

01:28:59.960 We've had a bizarre COVID.

01:29:01.760 Everyone has had

01:29:02.400 a bizarre COVID.

01:29:03.120 So we had these strange laws

01:29:04.540 like you can't buy flip-flops

01:29:06.360 during COVID.

01:29:07.280 Those are deadly.

01:29:08.180 Yeah,

01:29:08.340 and you cannot buy shorts

01:29:09.680 and stuff.

01:29:11.260 You cannot buy cooked chicken.

01:29:12.700 We had these really,

01:29:13.640 really bizarre COVID laws.

01:29:16.000 It's a crime

01:29:16.720 to buy cooked chicken

01:29:17.620 or to sell cooked chicken

01:29:18.780 during COVID.

01:29:20.060 And so people just,

01:29:21.320 people just said,

01:29:22.740 well,

01:29:23.080 we don't care.

01:29:23.860 We're just going to do

01:29:24.560 what we want.

01:29:25.740 And so there was

01:29:26.740 a massive civil disobedience

01:29:28.600 phenomenon in South Africa

01:29:31.480 during the COVID lockdown.

01:29:33.440 And so I think people have learned

01:29:34.540 and the government

01:29:34.960 couldn't do anything about it.

01:29:35.980 I think people have learned

01:29:37.300 that you can actually do a lot

01:29:40.720 if you just don't comply

01:29:42.140 with these completely

01:29:43.220 ridiculous,

01:29:44.180 irrational laws.

01:29:46.760 That sounds,

01:29:47.200 I mean,

01:29:47.540 I don't live in South Africa,

01:29:48.840 but again,

01:29:49.340 I have lived in Washington,

01:29:50.260 D.C.

01:29:50.520 So that sounds totally right to me.

01:29:53.620 I wonder though

01:29:54.640 about what you said

01:29:55.520 when we first started

01:29:56.740 talking about this,

01:29:57.720 about the mob justice.

01:30:00.620 That does sound scary to me.

01:30:03.100 I think that's,

01:30:03.740 that's a bigger threat.

01:30:04.840 What do you do about that?

01:30:07.100 How do you live in a country

01:30:08.300 where,

01:30:08.740 you know,

01:30:09.120 like your neighbors

01:30:09.800 could rise up against you?

01:30:11.900 Yeah.

01:30:12.200 So,

01:30:12.360 so,

01:30:12.880 so we've had some examples

01:30:14.900 of this.

01:30:15.540 It started with the

01:30:16.640 roads must fall movement.

01:30:19.060 It was a,

01:30:20.060 Oh,

01:30:20.100 the roads.

01:30:20.580 Oh,

01:30:20.680 Cecil John roads.

01:30:21.720 So this one guy

01:30:22.820 defecated on Cecil John roads,

01:30:24.580 a statue at,

01:30:26.540 was it UCT?

01:30:27.600 What university was it?

01:30:28.600 In,

01:30:28.820 in,

01:30:29.180 in Cape Town.

01:30:30.440 And then they started

01:30:31.320 this movement.

01:30:32.100 You defecated on it.

01:30:33.140 Yeah.

01:30:33.540 Yeah.

01:30:33.900 That's attractive.

01:30:34.780 Well,

01:30:34.880 that,

01:30:35.080 that's kind of,

01:30:36.400 that's kind of,

01:30:36.900 kind of like the level

01:30:37.920 actually that you're dealing with.

01:30:39.500 Yeah.

01:30:39.920 And so they started,

01:30:40.680 they started this movement

01:30:42.260 of tearing down statues,

01:30:44.380 which eventually boiled

01:30:45.520 over to America.

01:30:46.300 And that's how it got to America.

01:30:47.600 It started in,

01:30:48.820 and it boiled out over to

01:30:50.300 Europe and so forth.

01:30:51.380 But it started with that,

01:30:52.940 this targeting of statues.

01:30:54.540 I think it was 2012

01:30:55.700 or something.

01:30:56.620 It was maybe before that even.

01:30:58.300 And it became a mob

01:31:00.260 and they,

01:31:01.420 they,

01:31:01.780 they wore t-shirts

01:31:02.740 with slogans like

01:31:03.760 kill the whites,

01:31:04.440 like on the t-shirt.

01:31:05.240 And,

01:31:05.620 and it became very violent

01:31:07.520 and very overtly racist.

01:31:09.980 And it was students

01:31:11.180 running around,

01:31:12.940 just,

01:31:13.260 you know,

01:31:13.860 setting things on fire,

01:31:15.060 burning down buildings

01:31:15.920 and stuff like that.

01:31:17.240 So that,

01:31:17.980 that is a real threat.

01:31:19.180 And then later we had

01:31:19.940 the fees must fall movement.

01:31:21.500 That was university students

01:31:22.620 demanding that

01:31:23.360 education must be free.

01:31:25.620 You shouldn't pay

01:31:26.500 to go to university.

01:31:27.680 And it was the same thing.

01:31:29.580 And now we've had these,

01:31:31.140 more recently,

01:31:31.940 we've had political parties

01:31:33.140 sort of taken up that thing.

01:31:34.440 This kill the Boer

01:31:35.260 and so forth.

01:31:36.740 And so I honestly think

01:31:38.060 in South Africa,

01:31:39.340 the threat of mob violence

01:31:40.360 is,

01:31:40.700 is a bigger threat

01:31:41.660 than the government.

01:31:42.480 Of course it is.

01:31:43.720 Of course it is.

01:31:45.180 And,

01:31:45.720 you know,

01:31:46.260 that's where you get killed.

01:31:47.780 The situations like that,

01:31:48.940 I think.

01:31:50.640 So,

01:31:51.500 what do you,

01:31:52.700 I mean,

01:31:52.880 you have to be pretty well-organized,

01:31:54.240 pretty well-armed.

01:31:55.740 Well,

01:31:56.120 the thing is,

01:31:57.120 there's no silver bullet.

01:31:58.220 There's no one thing

01:31:59.060 that we can do

01:31:59.800 to make sure

01:32:00.640 that we're equipped

01:32:02.200 to withstand that.

01:32:03.620 But if there is

01:32:04.620 a silver bullet,

01:32:05.780 it would be,

01:32:06.700 or the closest to it,

01:32:08.460 it would be

01:32:08.840 what I mentioned earlier

01:32:09.640 is well-organized communities.

01:32:11.980 Communities that have

01:32:13.000 a sense of community,

01:32:14.640 that recognize

01:32:15.640 that you have

01:32:16.600 a sense of responsibility,

01:32:17.920 not just towards yourself

01:32:18.960 and your own family,

01:32:19.780 but towards your community.

01:32:21.520 And that you have

01:32:23.040 some form of a communal identity

01:32:24.500 that is under threat,

01:32:25.580 that is being targeted.

01:32:26.740 And you have to protect yourself.

01:32:28.120 You have to fulfill

01:32:28.920 a bunch of functions

01:32:30.000 that the government

01:32:30.740 is not fulfilling.

01:32:32.100 Even though you're paying them

01:32:33.040 to do it,

01:32:33.480 they're not doing it.

01:32:34.580 So you have to look after

01:32:35.560 your own safety.

01:32:36.400 You need to have a gun.

01:32:37.280 You need to have

01:32:38.000 a bulletproof vest.

01:32:39.520 You need to have,

01:32:40.480 or if you don't,

01:32:41.260 then at least

01:32:41.620 a significant amount of people

01:32:42.960 in your community must.

01:32:44.600 Especially those

01:32:45.240 who are more interested

01:32:45.900 in this type of thing.

01:32:47.440 You need to be well-organized.

01:32:48.660 You need to be prepared

01:32:50.080 if something bad happens

01:32:51.760 in your community.

01:32:52.620 If the mob comes,

01:32:53.540 if they set the shopping mall

01:32:54.700 on fire,

01:32:55.560 or if they come

01:32:56.140 for people's houses,

01:32:57.660 that in a very short

01:32:59.280 time frame,

01:33:00.960 you can get a whole bunch

01:33:02.360 of people mobilized

01:33:03.580 to protect their community.

01:33:05.580 And with these riots

01:33:06.460 in 2021,

01:33:07.880 that was a good case study

01:33:08.980 because some communities

01:33:10.020 were completely unprepared

01:33:11.320 and they were virtually destroyed.

01:33:12.780 And some communities

01:33:13.680 were very well prepared.

01:33:15.160 And when the mobs arrived,

01:33:16.260 there was a bunch of people

01:33:17.040 with guns waiting for them.

01:33:18.240 Well, I saw a video

01:33:19.820 of the South Asian communities

01:33:21.800 in Durban.

01:33:22.920 The big South Asian,

01:33:23.780 big Indian community there.

01:33:25.780 And I don't know

01:33:27.300 if this is representative,

01:33:28.220 but the videos I saw,

01:33:29.200 man,

01:33:29.340 they were not putting up

01:33:30.180 with it at all.

01:33:30.980 Yeah, they were very well-armed.

01:33:32.760 Yes.

01:33:33.640 Yeah.

01:33:34.280 It's like some heroic Indians

01:33:36.240 out there.

01:33:36.700 Yeah, there was one,

01:33:37.480 I think,

01:33:37.820 some guy with something

01:33:38.780 that looked like a minigun

01:33:39.960 on the back of a pickup truck.

01:33:42.260 I don't know

01:33:42.860 where they got that.

01:33:43.780 I don't know.

01:33:44.440 But that's an example.

01:33:45.700 It was another example.

01:33:46.640 You know,

01:33:47.220 these videos are all out of context.

01:33:48.720 I'm not in Durban during this,

01:33:50.180 but I just,

01:33:50.840 that's true.

01:33:51.600 You got some brave Indians.

01:33:53.000 Yes, yes, I do.

01:33:53.840 We have some brave Indians.

01:33:54.940 We do.

01:33:56.120 But,

01:33:56.720 and there were other examples.

01:33:58.360 One was a,

01:33:59.560 the mob was approaching a town

01:34:01.100 and the people were waiting

01:34:02.520 for them on a bridge.

01:34:03.880 And then they got there,

01:34:04.580 they just couldn't enter

01:34:05.400 because the people

01:34:06.160 had just cordoned off

01:34:07.120 their own town,

01:34:08.540 their own village

01:34:09.240 or community

01:34:10.080 and they weren't able to enter.

01:34:12.060 So we've had some case studies

01:34:13.260 of this.

01:34:14.060 South Africa is a fascinating

01:34:15.120 case study for a lot of things.

01:34:16.380 It certainly is.

01:34:17.460 It certainly is.

01:34:18.780 Can I just ask like a dumb question,

01:34:20.700 a childish question?

01:34:22.500 Why,

01:34:23.000 if I'm the government

01:34:23.660 of South Africa,

01:34:24.280 it's like,

01:34:25.440 why are you going after

01:34:26.320 productive people

01:34:27.240 for one thing,

01:34:28.280 the most productive?

01:34:31.340 And that would include

01:34:32.520 the Indians,

01:34:34.020 the Afrikaners,

01:34:34.920 by the way,

01:34:35.620 some of the black African immigrants,

01:34:38.040 the Zimbabweans,

01:34:38.960 like,

01:34:39.260 these are like,

01:34:40.280 are some of the most productive people.

01:34:42.580 Why not just live in harmony,

01:34:45.240 actually?

01:34:46.380 So wouldn't it be better

01:34:47.660 for everybody?

01:34:48.420 Of course.

01:34:48.980 Of course it would be better.

01:34:50.340 I think it's because

01:34:51.520 they have,

01:34:52.280 when they took power in 1994,

01:34:54.080 they explicitly said,

01:34:55.340 we are not a political party.

01:34:57.520 We are not a government

01:34:58.680 in terms of what people

01:34:59.800 think a government should be.

01:35:01.120 We are a liberation movement

01:35:02.840 committed to the promotion

01:35:04.620 of socialism

01:35:05.320 and committed to the promotion

01:35:06.780 of black nationalism.

01:35:08.360 And that's their ideology.

01:35:09.900 They said that in 94.

01:35:11.240 Yeah,

01:35:11.560 they even said that before 94.

01:35:13.240 They published it.

01:35:13.860 So it's just,

01:35:14.600 I know I'm going back

01:35:15.180 to the same themes.

01:35:16.700 I'm getting older,

01:35:17.460 sorry.

01:35:18.160 But like,

01:35:19.200 no,

01:35:19.800 but I mean,

01:35:20.220 I actually did know that

01:35:21.400 because as I said,

01:35:22.760 I've always been interested

01:35:23.680 and I knew people there,

01:35:25.300 but nobody in the American press

01:35:27.400 mentioned that.

01:35:28.080 Not one person.

01:35:28.560 Yeah.

01:35:28.660 There's a well-known book

01:35:30.960 that was an international bestseller,

01:35:33.160 My Traitor's Heart

01:35:34.140 by a guy called Rian Malan.

01:35:36.360 It's sort of his autobiography.

01:35:37.760 I've read it.

01:35:38.060 Oh, yeah, yeah.

01:35:38.480 Okay.

01:35:39.120 And so there's one section

01:35:40.600 in that book.

01:35:41.500 I know Rian,

01:35:42.340 I know the author.

01:35:43.260 He's a great guy,

01:35:44.080 but in the book,

01:35:44.700 he writes about...

01:35:45.700 In English,

01:35:46.500 I don't know if he wrote

01:35:47.140 it off for cons originally,

01:35:48.220 but it's a beautifully written book.

01:35:49.540 It's very well written.

01:35:50.540 He is a very nice writer.

01:35:51.680 He speaks like he writes as well.

01:35:52.480 Oh, he does?

01:35:52.940 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:35:53.740 So there's one part in the book

01:35:55.380 where he talks about

01:35:56.120 picking up the New York Times.

01:35:57.940 And I'm sort of saying this

01:35:59.280 from memory,

01:35:59.780 from reading the book.

01:36:01.100 But broadly speaking,

01:36:02.620 what he says is

01:36:03.260 he picks up the New York Times

01:36:04.600 in, I don't know,

01:36:05.180 1992 or something

01:36:06.520 in New York or wherever.

01:36:08.780 And there's two stories

01:36:10.160 next on the same page.

01:36:11.900 The one is about

01:36:13.040 the ANC and Nelson Mandela

01:36:16.020 coming to save South Africa.

01:36:17.760 And then the other story

01:36:18.920 is a somewhat smaller story

01:36:20.280 about a guy being necklaced

01:36:22.700 in a local community,

01:36:24.140 a guy being viciously

01:36:25.260 attacked and killed.

01:36:26.660 And so he writes in that book

01:36:28.260 that what concerned him

01:36:30.740 was that the New York Times

01:36:32.000 was not able to connect

01:36:33.140 these two stories to each other.

01:36:34.940 They didn't recognize

01:36:36.040 that it's part of the same story.

01:36:37.640 It's presented

01:36:38.440 as two completely different stories.

01:36:39.960 I think they knew exactly.

01:36:40.960 I think it was very obvious.

01:36:42.060 So I was 25 in 1994

01:36:43.980 and it was very obvious to me.

01:36:47.280 And I, you know,

01:36:48.580 I don't think I have

01:36:49.140 any special powers of insight.

01:36:50.280 I think you would have to be

01:36:52.500 lying to yourself

01:36:54.380 or lying to your audience

01:36:55.440 not to acknowledge it.

01:36:57.180 And by the way,

01:36:58.420 it's 1994.

01:36:59.440 That's less than 20 years

01:37:00.460 after the Kamaruj took power

01:37:01.800 in Phnom Penh in Cambodia.

01:37:04.160 That was while

01:37:04.680 the Rwandan genocide

01:37:05.620 was happening.

01:37:06.540 It was the same year

01:37:07.500 as the Rwandan.

01:37:08.160 It was later that year.

01:37:09.240 It was the same month even.

01:37:11.400 The election at least.

01:37:13.260 Was in July?

01:37:15.060 April.

01:37:15.720 May.

01:37:16.300 May.

01:37:16.640 May.

01:37:16.920 Okay, right.

01:37:17.320 I remember them both very well

01:37:20.680 and I knew people

01:37:21.420 in both places at the time.

01:37:23.100 But I remember thinking,

01:37:24.080 obviously,

01:37:24.820 what happened in Kigali

01:37:25.540 is way worse

01:37:26.060 than anything that's happened

01:37:27.880 in South Africa,

01:37:29.600 thank God.

01:37:30.640 But bottom line,

01:37:32.580 when bad people

01:37:33.940 with bad motives

01:37:35.580 stated publicly

01:37:36.560 take power,

01:37:37.480 it's not good.

01:37:39.120 So, like,

01:37:39.400 I don't know.

01:37:39.820 That's not hard.

01:37:41.000 Well, there's a story

01:37:41.680 from Rwanda

01:37:42.700 that I keep mentioning

01:37:44.400 in the same time.

01:37:47.180 I think Linda Melvin

01:37:48.340 wrote a book called

01:37:49.200 Conspiracy to Murder,

01:37:50.380 which is about,

01:37:50.920 I think she lived in Rwanda

01:37:51.940 and she's a journalist

01:37:52.580 and she wrote about

01:37:53.380 what happened.

01:37:54.380 And she writes about

01:37:55.200 a meeting,

01:37:57.120 it must have been a party

01:37:58.100 in Washington

01:37:58.800 between American diplomats

01:38:01.840 and government officials

01:38:03.480 from Rwanda

01:38:04.260 in the run-up,

01:38:05.880 I think,

01:38:06.160 to the genocide.

01:38:07.680 And it was just

01:38:09.120 a big celebration

01:38:09.920 and everyone was happy

01:38:10.900 because Rwanda

01:38:11.620 was in the process

01:38:12.340 of becoming a democracy.

01:38:14.400 And then afterwards,

01:38:15.680 someone asked

01:38:16.380 one of the Americans,

01:38:17.820 but did you not know

01:38:18.940 what was happening

01:38:19.680 in Rwanda,

01:38:20.440 that they were on the verge

01:38:21.620 of committing genocide?

01:38:23.820 And he said,

01:38:24.640 the American diplomat said,

01:38:26.620 yes, we knew,

01:38:27.400 but we were so excited

01:38:28.460 about democracy

01:38:29.420 and Rwanda becoming

01:38:30.860 a democracy,

01:38:31.340 we didn't want to spoil

01:38:32.540 the mood

01:38:33.080 by confronting them.

01:38:34.000 Well, that sounds like

01:38:34.960 an American diplomat.

01:38:36.060 Yeah.

01:38:36.520 Wow.

01:38:37.120 That's...

01:38:37.680 So, that's very,

01:38:39.240 very alarming,

01:38:39.840 this idea of being

01:38:40.500 so excited

01:38:41.300 about a potential idea

01:38:43.220 that you are not

01:38:45.320 willing to confront

01:38:46.140 the realities

01:38:46.720 that's happening

01:38:48.420 or that could

01:38:48.960 potentially unfold.

01:38:50.680 Or being unwilling

01:38:51.780 to clearly define

01:38:52.920 your terms.

01:38:53.660 Like, what is democracy,

01:38:54.540 actually?

01:38:55.620 Yeah, well,

01:38:55.920 that's...

01:38:56.300 I think that's

01:38:56.880 an underlying...

01:38:57.960 It's an underlying

01:38:58.500 problem.

01:38:58.940 Yeah.

01:38:59.180 Right.

01:38:59.640 And it's a problem

01:39:00.400 that's only surfaced

01:39:01.140 in this country

01:39:01.800 in the last couple of years.

01:39:02.700 Can I give you an example

01:39:03.660 of that from the

01:39:04.460 South African perspective?

01:39:05.600 So, I mentioned

01:39:06.520 the name changes.

01:39:07.420 It's a big thing

01:39:07.960 in South Africa.

01:39:09.160 I'm sure that'll

01:39:09.940 fix your problems.

01:39:10.560 Will that bring

01:39:10.860 electricity and water back?

01:39:12.140 No, obviously.

01:39:13.920 So, there's a town

01:39:14.740 called Amanzamtoti,

01:39:16.060 which is on the

01:39:16.940 east coast

01:39:17.780 of South Africa.

01:39:18.880 The main street

01:39:20.180 was named Kingsway.

01:39:22.040 They changed it

01:39:22.920 to Andrew Zondu Street.

01:39:24.280 Now, Andrew Zondu

01:39:24.940 is really only known

01:39:26.340 for one thing.

01:39:26.960 He was a member

01:39:27.540 of the ANC Youth League

01:39:28.760 and I believe

01:39:29.660 it was 1985.

01:39:31.560 He planted a bomb

01:39:32.640 in a shopping center

01:39:33.560 and he killed,

01:39:34.900 I think,

01:39:35.160 five people

01:39:35.800 and injured 40.

01:39:36.760 All of the people

01:39:37.340 who were killed

01:39:37.740 were women and children.

01:39:39.480 That's the only thing

01:39:40.300 he did

01:39:40.600 and he was a member

01:39:41.320 of the ANC Youth League.

01:39:42.740 The ANC regards

01:39:43.560 that event

01:39:44.040 as something

01:39:45.260 that they claim

01:39:45.980 as an act

01:39:47.460 of heroism.

01:39:48.600 So, they named

01:39:49.320 the main street

01:39:50.120 after him.

01:39:51.580 And so, there are

01:39:51.940 people in that town

01:39:52.780 who drive to work

01:39:53.820 in a street

01:39:55.000 named after the person

01:39:56.400 who killed

01:39:56.900 their children.

01:39:58.840 And now,

01:39:59.260 they would say

01:40:00.060 that they need

01:40:00.840 to do these name changes

01:40:02.140 to make sure

01:40:02.880 that they get rid

01:40:03.540 of offensive names.

01:40:04.820 Offensive names

01:40:05.420 are Afrikaans names

01:40:06.480 or names linked

01:40:07.500 to South Africa's past.

01:40:09.740 And so, I was at,

01:40:10.500 again, a summit

01:40:11.540 where this was discussed

01:40:12.420 and I mentioned this.

01:40:14.620 I said,

01:40:15.000 so, you say

01:40:16.060 that in Pretoria,

01:40:17.560 Church Street

01:40:18.220 is an offensive name

01:40:19.320 and has to be changed.

01:40:20.920 In Amansam Toti,

01:40:22.060 you change Kingsway

01:40:23.320 to Andrew Zondu.

01:40:24.420 And I tell this story

01:40:25.140 and I said,

01:40:25.540 so, who decides

01:40:26.840 if it's offensive or not?

01:40:28.980 And the guy said,

01:40:29.660 oh, well, that's easy.

01:40:30.480 The majority decides.

01:40:32.580 And so,

01:40:33.020 but it's not even

01:40:33.680 the majority,

01:40:34.360 it's just the government.

01:40:35.420 The government decides

01:40:36.180 because they believe

01:40:36.920 they are the majority.

01:40:38.180 So, we have these

01:40:38.760 extremely offensive things

01:40:40.060 happening under the banner

01:40:41.200 of promoting.

01:40:41.360 Well, they're murderous.

01:40:42.480 I mean, again,

01:40:43.680 I just, yeah,

01:40:45.480 I think it's,

01:40:47.140 the picture is really,

01:40:48.400 really clear.

01:40:50.020 You know,

01:40:50.880 it couldn't be clearer.

01:40:52.380 Yeah.

01:40:53.060 Yeah, absolutely.

01:40:53.940 How do you,

01:40:54.600 you're staying.

01:40:55.960 Yeah, no, definitely.

01:40:57.280 Yeah, we'll stay.

01:40:58.560 You guys must love

01:40:59.340 your country.

01:41:00.340 Yeah, we really do.

01:41:01.300 I mean, in South Africa,

01:41:02.200 everyone who's been

01:41:02.920 to South Africa

01:41:03.540 would say it's an incredibly

01:41:04.700 beautiful country

01:41:05.480 and it truly is.

01:41:06.800 And it's a country

01:41:07.540 that unfortunately

01:41:08.160 has suffered so much

01:41:09.560 under this current government

01:41:10.880 and has suffered

01:41:12.360 so much in the past.

01:41:14.200 One of our Afrikaans philosophers,

01:41:16.780 a man named N.P.

01:41:17.620 Van Weycklo

01:41:18.240 wrote, I think,

01:41:19.060 in the 1930s

01:41:20.020 or something

01:41:20.340 that you love a people

01:41:22.440 not so much

01:41:23.520 for their accomplishments

01:41:24.640 as for the hardships

01:41:26.380 that they've had to endure.

01:41:27.940 That's right.

01:41:28.260 And I think that's true

01:41:29.920 for South Africa.

01:41:30.740 South Africa has endured

01:41:31.760 many hardships

01:41:32.420 and also for our people,

01:41:33.820 the Afrikaner people,

01:41:34.680 as with many other peoples

01:41:35.640 all over the world,

01:41:36.900 have endured many hardships.

01:41:38.900 And it's through these hardships

01:41:40.260 and maintaining

01:41:41.540 our sense of identity

01:41:43.020 that we really love

01:41:45.280 our history

01:41:45.820 and our tradition

01:41:46.480 and our culture.

01:41:46.900 Well, you came in the first place

01:41:48.020 because you were

01:41:48.580 an oppressed minority, correct?

01:41:49.840 Yep.

01:41:50.180 I know the French did.

01:41:51.480 Yes, the French Huguenots.

01:41:52.660 Yes.

01:41:53.220 Yes.

01:41:53.740 It was the fleeing

01:41:54.540 the religious wars in Europe.

01:41:55.640 Of course.

01:41:56.140 They were getting killed.

01:41:56.880 Yes, in big numbers.

01:41:58.420 Yeah, yeah.

01:41:59.140 That's part of our origin story,

01:42:02.360 how we came to be.

01:42:02.820 Well, it's also factually true.

01:42:04.600 Yeah, absolutely.

01:42:04.900 It's part of history.

01:42:05.860 I mean, it's not a myth.

01:42:06.560 It's real.

01:42:07.140 Yes, yes, absolutely.

01:42:08.300 Yeah.

01:42:08.820 So, do you think,

01:42:11.600 I don't know what the resolution

01:42:12.700 will be,

01:42:13.760 and I'm certainly rooting

01:42:14.820 for all South Africans

01:42:16.240 of every color.

01:42:17.800 But, fervently.

01:42:19.320 But, I gotta think

01:42:21.500 that being able to say

01:42:22.820 certain obvious truths

01:42:24.140 out loud helps.

01:42:26.400 Yes.

01:42:26.880 Do you think?

01:42:28.920 Well, the problem is

01:42:30.180 if you do that,

01:42:30.960 you really,

01:42:31.620 you get bashed

01:42:32.580 quite aggressively.

01:42:34.460 Yeah, but like,

01:42:35.380 compared to what?

01:42:36.460 Yeah.

01:42:36.980 No.

01:42:37.200 They just said,

01:42:37.660 we're taking your land

01:42:38.300 because your skin color is so white.

01:42:39.040 Well, the alternative is worse.

01:42:40.380 It's just living the lie.

01:42:42.040 It's much worse

01:42:43.060 than getting bashed

01:42:44.080 for telling the truth.

01:42:45.740 Can I tell you

01:42:46.400 a quick story

01:42:48.320 or a quick reference

01:42:49.000 about courage?

01:42:49.700 Of course.

01:42:50.020 So, it's somewhat philosophical,

01:42:52.700 but I'll make it practical.

01:42:53.900 So, Odysseus is on his way back

01:42:55.360 from the Trojan War.

01:42:57.440 And he has all these hardships

01:42:59.280 and he's trying to get home.

01:43:01.120 And he gets told

01:43:02.140 that the only way

01:43:02.960 for him to get home

01:43:03.800 is to face

01:43:05.860 Scylla and Charybdis.

01:43:07.320 Scylla is this

01:43:08.220 six-headed sea monster

01:43:09.860 and Charybdis

01:43:11.220 is a monstrous whirlpool

01:43:12.580 that swallows

01:43:13.320 ships whole.

01:43:14.860 And the only way

01:43:15.500 for him to get home

01:43:16.260 is he has to navigate

01:43:17.140 through these two monsters,

01:43:19.240 which he eventually does.

01:43:20.920 He decides

01:43:21.540 it's better for him

01:43:22.480 to move

01:43:22.960 to sail his ship

01:43:24.140 closer to Scylla,

01:43:25.560 the sea monster,

01:43:26.640 than the whirlpool.

01:43:28.020 And a whole lot

01:43:28.520 of his people die,

01:43:29.740 but he reaches

01:43:30.400 his destination.

01:43:31.940 And so, Aristotle

01:43:32.600 writes about this

01:43:33.500 in the Nicomachean Ethics

01:43:35.120 when he talks about

01:43:36.380 the golden mean.

01:43:37.100 And he says,

01:43:37.520 any virtue

01:43:38.120 is about finding

01:43:39.560 the balance

01:43:40.140 between having excess of it

01:43:42.180 and having a deficiency of it.

01:43:43.680 And so,

01:43:44.380 this goes to courage.

01:43:45.520 And courage is a good example.

01:43:46.640 If you have excess courage,

01:43:48.240 you become reckless.

01:43:49.240 Yes.

01:43:49.640 And if you have a deficiency,

01:43:50.980 then you're a coward.

01:43:52.540 And so,

01:43:53.180 the point of having courage

01:43:54.960 is finding the balance

01:43:56.180 between cowardice

01:43:57.280 and recklessness.

01:43:58.740 And what's great

01:43:59.620 about the story

01:44:00.280 of Odysseus

01:44:01.000 is Odysseus

01:44:02.880 discovers

01:44:03.400 that he cannot

01:44:04.160 simply go

01:44:05.060 exactly in the middle

01:44:06.260 between the two.

01:44:07.540 He has to be closer

01:44:08.700 to the one threat

01:44:09.680 than to the other.

01:44:10.760 Because if he goes

01:44:11.420 too close

01:44:11.900 to the whirlpool,

01:44:12.700 these old ship

01:44:13.580 gets swallowed up.

01:44:15.500 And so,

01:44:15.780 the point here

01:44:16.260 and Aristotle

01:44:16.780 says this as well,

01:44:17.620 it's not to find

01:44:18.260 the exact middle point.

01:44:19.340 It's to find

01:44:19.820 the appropriate balance

01:44:21.060 between the two extremes.

01:44:22.840 And so,

01:44:23.060 the one extreme

01:44:23.580 is recklessness

01:44:24.180 and the other extreme

01:44:25.020 is cowardice.

01:44:26.040 And I honestly think

01:44:27.180 in the situation

01:44:28.500 we are in,

01:44:30.080 it's better

01:44:30.860 to err

01:44:31.440 on the side

01:44:32.020 of being too bold

01:44:33.160 than to err

01:44:34.080 on the side

01:44:34.640 of having

01:44:35.040 not enough courage

01:44:36.120 or trying

01:44:37.260 to find

01:44:38.160 some form

01:44:38.680 of solution

01:44:39.180 through appeasement.

01:44:40.140 And so,

01:44:41.240 we make mistakes

01:44:41.900 in the process

01:44:42.440 and sometimes

01:44:43.360 you say something wrong

01:44:44.420 or you do something wrong.

01:44:45.640 But I'm very much convinced

01:44:47.700 that if we're on this course

01:44:50.840 and we try to pursue

01:44:51.900 what we are trying

01:44:52.640 to pursue,

01:44:53.820 rather err on the side

01:44:54.960 of having too much boldness

01:44:56.140 and too much courage

01:44:57.060 and facing the consequences,

01:44:58.980 then having to face

01:44:59.800 the consequences

01:45:00.420 of having a lack

01:45:01.840 of courage.

01:45:03.080 I love that.

01:45:04.680 I gotta say,

01:45:05.420 in a lifetime of travel,

01:45:06.620 if I could just generalize,

01:45:07.820 the two most impressive groups

01:45:10.880 I meet everywhere,

01:45:13.260 my whole life,

01:45:13.980 around the world,

01:45:15.140 both groups living in exile

01:45:16.700 in large numbers

01:45:17.540 are the South Africans

01:45:18.440 and the Lebanese.

01:45:19.840 Oh, really?

01:45:20.340 Yes, yes.

01:45:21.220 I've never met one

01:45:22.120 of either group

01:45:22.540 I didn't like

01:45:23.100 and didn't admire.

01:45:23.880 I don't think I've met one

01:45:24.820 in either group

01:45:25.660 and the thing

01:45:26.380 that they have in common

01:45:27.300 is they live in beautiful,

01:45:28.980 volatile countries

01:45:29.600 that they really love

01:45:30.540 but they're very hard

01:45:31.740 to live in.

01:45:32.900 Yes.

01:45:33.080 And so,

01:45:33.740 they're caught

01:45:34.520 between that tension,

01:45:36.200 you know,

01:45:36.740 cowardice and recklessness

01:45:37.700 and they're making

01:45:38.320 that calculation

01:45:38.860 every single day

01:45:39.620 and they're living

01:45:40.620 so thoughtfully

01:45:41.400 and so purposefully

01:45:42.760 and in such a,

01:45:44.640 I don't know,

01:45:45.240 just an admirable,

01:45:46.920 noble way.

01:45:47.800 I've just noticed that.

01:45:48.980 Oh, I appreciate

01:45:50.100 the comment.

01:45:51.900 It's just an observation

01:45:53.620 but I've thought

01:45:54.540 about it many times.

01:45:55.560 Last question,

01:45:56.500 where can people

01:45:58.740 who have made it

01:45:59.260 this far into the interview

01:46:00.240 and are interested

01:46:01.160 in what's happening

01:46:03.680 in your country

01:46:04.340 and happening

01:46:05.340 to your group,

01:46:07.700 how can they follow it?

01:46:09.180 How can they be helpful?

01:46:11.440 How can they learn more

01:46:12.260 and be supportive?

01:46:13.320 Well,

01:46:14.460 I think there are many ways.

01:46:15.680 The one way

01:46:16.240 is just to follow

01:46:17.480 what's happening

01:46:18.600 in South Africa

01:46:19.060 and speak about it

01:46:20.120 because we've had

01:46:21.200 this incredible

01:46:22.180 barrage

01:46:23.000 of communications

01:46:24.700 coming just telling us

01:46:25.740 again how wrong we are.

01:46:26.940 You know,

01:46:27.360 this narrative

01:46:27.960 is this zeitgeist

01:46:29.320 in a certain sense.

01:46:30.240 It's really like

01:46:31.540 a monster

01:46:32.060 that you have to fight.

01:46:33.540 This, you know,

01:46:34.040 that you're not allowed

01:46:34.720 to say,

01:46:35.280 speak certain truths

01:46:36.180 even though the truths

01:46:36.940 are self-evident.

01:46:38.540 So, I think one thing

01:46:39.540 is if people just

01:46:40.200 can help spread the message,

01:46:41.660 help take some interest

01:46:42.700 in South Africa

01:46:43.220 because what's happening

01:46:44.060 in South Africa

01:46:44.540 is also of interest

01:46:45.460 to the rest of the world.

01:46:46.460 I think it is.

01:46:46.900 In many ways,

01:46:47.600 South Africa is the future

01:46:48.480 of the Western world.

01:46:49.440 I know.

01:46:50.200 In terms of the problem

01:46:51.260 and the solution,

01:46:52.140 I think.

01:46:53.240 So, that's one.

01:46:54.260 And then the other is

01:46:54.880 there really are

01:46:55.580 some institutions

01:46:56.320 in South Africa

01:46:57.100 who are really focused

01:46:59.420 on building

01:47:00.200 community-based solutions.

01:47:01.760 And I think if people

01:47:02.680 can identify

01:47:04.340 these institutions

01:47:05.200 and support

01:47:06.040 these institutions,

01:47:07.180 it really would help.

01:47:08.920 And I think in terms

01:47:09.760 of the U.S. government,

01:47:11.000 if the U.S. government

01:47:12.020 is willing to do something

01:47:13.600 as it seems that they are,

01:47:15.480 I think the most important

01:47:16.680 thing that they could do

01:47:17.700 is a combination

01:47:18.720 of pressuring

01:47:19.780 the South African government

01:47:20.860 away from these

01:47:22.560 destructive policies

01:47:23.500 but also supporting

01:47:25.180 communities,

01:47:26.240 local communities

01:47:26.980 or minority communities

01:47:28.120 or nations,

01:47:29.020 you should say,

01:47:29.540 who are committed

01:47:31.220 to finding

01:47:31.780 some form of

01:47:32.460 self-determination.

01:47:34.360 Amen.

01:47:34.740 Well, Godspeed.

01:47:36.260 Thank you very much.

01:47:37.260 I hope to see you again.

01:47:37.460 I hope you'll come back.

01:47:38.940 Oh, thank you.

01:47:39.520 I hope so too.

01:47:40.420 And then I have to thank you

01:47:41.380 not just for this interview

01:47:42.740 but also for the focus

01:47:44.420 you've been putting

01:47:45.100 on South Africa

01:47:45.720 in the past.

01:47:46.660 Well, it's just so interesting

01:47:48.140 and it reveals so much

01:47:48.920 about us.

01:47:49.520 I'm American

01:47:50.080 and it reveals a lot

01:47:50.960 about our leadership class

01:47:52.040 and I think it's important

01:47:53.300 to say it.

01:47:54.080 So, thank you.

01:47:54.860 Well, thank you very much.

01:47:59.540 We want to thank you

01:48:01.080 for watching us

01:48:01.720 on Spotify,

01:48:02.600 a company that we use

01:48:03.560 every day.

01:48:04.220 We know the people

01:48:04.620 who run it,

01:48:05.120 good people.

01:48:06.200 While you're here,

01:48:07.200 do us a favor,

01:48:07.960 hit follow

01:48:08.860 and tap the bell

01:48:10.320 so you never miss an episode.

01:48:12.200 We have real conversations,

01:48:13.600 news,

01:48:13.940 things that actually matter,

01:48:15.320 telling the truth always.

01:48:16.540 You will not miss it

01:48:17.500 if you follow us

01:48:18.900 on Spotify

01:48:19.380 and hit the bell.

01:48:20.320 We appreciate it.

01:48:20.880 Thanks for watching.

01:48:21.420 We'll see you next time.

The Tucker Carlson Show - March 03, 2025

Ernst Roets： Attacks on Whites in South Africa, Attempts to Hide It, and Trump’s Plan to End It

Episode Stats

Length

Words per Minute

Word Count

Sentence Count

Misogynist Sentences

Hate Speech Sentences

Summary

Transcript