The Tucker Carlson Show - Ernst Roets： Attacks on Whites in South Africa, Attempts to Hide It, and Trump’s Plan to End It

00:00:00.000 Hello, 988 Suicide Crisis Helpline.

00:00:05.700 I don't know what to say.

00:00:08.460 Well, honestly...

00:00:10.720 Sometimes I just feel...

00:00:13.000 It's okay. Take your time.

00:00:16.340 I'm here to listen.

00:00:18.320 It can be hard to find the words.

00:00:20.000 We can help. Anytime, day, or night.

00:00:22.820 Call or text 988 Suicide Crisis Helpline.

00:00:25.400 This initiative has been made possible through a financial contribution

00:00:28.300 from the Public Health Agency of Canada.

00:00:30.620 So I think for most Americans,

00:00:33.860 news about South Africa ended in 1994.

00:00:37.180 Both literally, we stopped getting a lot of news from the country,

00:00:39.960 but also people's views about it stopped evolving then.

00:00:44.540 That was the year that apartheid ended, I guess, officially.

00:00:48.940 You had elections.

00:00:50.840 Nelson Mandela is still a hero in the United States,

00:00:53.100 often referred to by politicians.

00:00:54.540 And it's only been, I think, in American media in the past couple of months

00:01:01.260 that stories have come out of South Africa that a lot of Americans have read

00:01:05.760 that actually the country seems to be falling apart

00:01:09.080 and that the government is kind of genocidally racist.

00:01:13.240 Yeah.

00:01:13.560 And then President Trump in the past month has basically said the same thing.

00:01:20.560 And it's shocking to a lot of people, I think,

00:01:22.960 how bad it is and just how racist it is,

00:01:26.160 far more than apartheid ever was.

00:01:28.180 And so I'm wondering, since you've just landed from South Africa,

00:01:51.540 you live there,

00:01:52.980 describe the state of the country right now, if you would.

00:01:55.320 Yeah, well, perhaps I can start with your reference about the 90s

00:01:59.180 because it's absolutely true.

00:02:01.400 South Africa and America was very involved with the setting up

00:02:04.360 of the political system that we have in South Africa during the 90s.

00:02:07.300 And it was, of course, the end of history era.

00:02:09.000 Everyone is excited about the fall of the Berlin Wall

00:02:11.760 and the whole world's going to be liberal and democratic,

00:02:14.520 including African countries.

00:02:16.360 Yes.

00:02:16.580 And Samuel Huntington actually cautioned against this in 1996,

00:02:20.120 saying, you know, when he wrote The Clash of Civilizations.

00:02:21.980 And he said, don't expect of African leaders 1.00

00:02:25.280 and African liberation movements to suddenly become Western

00:02:28.140 when you give them Western constitutions,

00:02:30.340 because they are still African.

00:02:31.660 So they will use, it's the democratic paradox.

00:02:34.020 They will use democratic institutions

00:02:36.000 to promote non-democratic ends.

00:02:39.560 And that's what we see in South Africa.

00:02:41.140 We have a parliament.

00:02:42.180 We have a very liberal constitution.

00:02:44.500 But if you read the constitution

00:02:46.120 and you compare that to reality in South Africa,

00:02:48.280 it's two completely different worlds.

00:02:50.280 The de facto and the de jure reality in South Africa

00:02:52.620 is irreconcilable.

00:02:55.800 And so what has been happening in South Africa

00:02:57.740 is firstly, there was this major excitement

00:03:00.300 about the new South African, Nelson Mandela,

00:03:02.620 the miracle story, you know, Oprah spoke about this

00:03:05.620 and Charlize Theron, everyone.

00:03:08.120 And, but the reality on ground level

00:03:10.560 was in many ways the opposite.

00:03:11.700 And I think a lot of-

00:03:12.920 From the beginning?

00:03:14.940 Gradually.

00:03:15.720 So they started, for example,

00:03:17.260 with these BEE, as they call it, 1.00

00:03:19.320 it's Black Economic Empowerment,

00:03:20.780 which of course has nothing to do

00:03:21.860 with economic empowerment.

00:03:23.460 They started with that in 1996.

00:03:26.660 And so they actually said initially in the 90s

00:03:29.820 that that's the ruling party's strategy.

00:03:32.220 They still call it that,

00:03:33.140 the National Democratic Revolution,

00:03:35.360 which is about using democracy

00:03:37.180 to promote socialist ends.

00:03:39.800 And so the revolution, they say,

00:03:41.700 it goes in two phases.

00:03:42.840 The first phase is present yourself

00:03:44.740 as being liberal and democratic

00:03:46.160 and get support,

00:03:47.360 especially international support and local,

00:03:49.860 and then use multi-party democracy

00:03:52.080 as a way of promoting the goals

00:03:54.880 of taking the country down the road to socialism.

00:03:57.400 And so recently they even went as far

00:03:59.040 as publishing a document saying,

00:04:00.380 we are now ready for the second phase

00:04:02.300 of the revolution.

00:04:03.080 We now have power.

00:04:04.060 We have control of the state.

00:04:05.240 We now need to use this

00:04:06.600 to become much more aggressive

00:04:08.260 in our socialist policies.

00:04:09.780 And we're seeing this

00:04:10.800 in a plethora of new laws

00:04:12.620 all of a sudden in South Africa,

00:04:14.440 which I think it's gotten to the point

00:04:16.840 where it's just not possible

00:04:19.080 to maintain the view

00:04:20.460 that people have had of South Africa

00:04:22.300 for the last few decades

00:04:23.480 and look at what's currently happening

00:04:25.500 in South Africa.

00:04:26.140 It's two completely different worlds.

00:04:28.000 And hopefully, or happily at least,

00:04:30.800 a lot of people are starting

00:04:32.040 to wake up to this.

00:04:33.320 So you said Samuel Huntington wrote that

00:04:36.200 in 1996, two years after the election.

00:04:41.500 I kind of thought that from day one

00:04:44.540 simply because I knew people there

00:04:46.960 and I was more familiar

00:04:49.540 with the details of the Mandelas.

00:04:52.040 Yes.

00:04:53.300 But I think most Americans,

00:04:54.700 I don't think, had any idea.

00:04:55.760 Like, what was Nelson Mandela

00:04:56.920 on Robin Island for?

00:04:57.740 What was he in prison for?

00:04:59.860 For being black?

00:05:01.220 Or was there another reason?

00:05:02.040 Well, literally, so I have children

00:05:04.040 and they are taught in schools

00:05:06.640 and the government prescribes

00:05:07.780 what children should learn in history.

00:05:10.580 And so the official version is

00:05:12.400 he went to prison

00:05:13.080 because he was a good leader

00:05:14.280 and the government didn't like that.

00:05:16.680 I should say that he certainly was

00:05:18.440 the best that the ANC

00:05:19.520 has ever had to offer.

00:05:20.940 Yes.

00:05:21.120 But the reason why he went to prison

00:05:22.640 is because they started

00:05:24.780 Mkwantui Sizwe,

00:05:25.880 which was the military wing of the ANC,

00:05:28.480 which became involved

00:05:30.080 with military actions in South Africa

00:05:32.160 with an attempt to overthrow the government.

00:05:34.960 And they actually,

00:05:35.540 and this is,

00:05:36.140 I'm quoting from the ANC's own policy documents

00:05:39.020 that's on their own website.

00:05:40.420 So they had this operation

00:05:41.640 when they started,

00:05:42.460 which was used in the Rivonia trial

00:05:44.100 against Nelson Mandela.

00:05:45.960 It was a strategy called

00:05:47.860 Operation Mahi Bouye.

00:05:49.180 And the slogan of this operation was

00:05:52.200 shamelessly we shall attack the weak

00:05:54.420 and shamelessly we shall flee from the strong.

00:05:57.480 So those were the circumstances

00:05:59.120 in the 1960s.

00:06:01.500 Pretty noble policy statement there.

00:06:03.700 We'll attack the weak

00:06:04.540 and flee from the strong.

00:06:05.340 Yeah.

00:06:05.600 And it's still on their website.

00:06:06.720 You can find it there.

00:06:08.180 So that was the,

00:06:09.120 it was an attempt at an armed uprising.

00:06:11.260 Now we can talk about

00:06:12.060 everything that was wrong

00:06:13.440 with the previous political system

00:06:14.940 in South Africa.

00:06:16.000 And there was a lot wrong,

00:06:16.780 but it's simply not the case

00:06:19.760 that he went to prison

00:06:20.640 for being a good leader.

00:06:22.560 Well, I think that most people

00:06:24.540 would acknowledge a distinction

00:06:25.660 between military action,

00:06:27.340 which is, you know,

00:06:28.220 a fight, a war, a battle

00:06:31.000 between militaries

00:06:33.500 and attacks on civilians,

00:06:35.500 which is something we call terrorism.

00:06:38.000 Yes.

00:06:38.720 So in 1985,

00:06:41.240 the ANC had a conference

00:06:42.820 in Kabwe in Zambia

00:06:44.320 and they took a formal decision.

00:06:47.280 That in their so-called

00:06:48.820 military operations,

00:06:49.700 they would not differentiate

00:06:50.840 between hard and soft targets.

00:06:52.900 So it was officially a policy 0.98

00:06:54.340 that says we can kill innocent people. 0.73

00:06:56.640 And a lot of innocent people died

00:06:58.240 in the political violence

00:06:59.440 in the run-up to 1994.

00:07:01.760 And 90% of the people who died

00:07:03.520 were black South Africans.

00:07:05.440 It was...

00:07:06.340 But non-combatants,

00:07:07.120 women, children. 0.96

00:07:07.740 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:07:08.280 Women and children. 0.54

00:07:08.860 Passers-by, you know,

00:07:09.880 people had nothing to do with anything.

00:07:11.100 Yes, yes, especially.

00:07:13.120 And so during that time

00:07:15.660 that Mandela was in prison,

00:07:17.100 I'm 55,

00:07:17.700 so I remember this very, very well,

00:07:19.160 his wife was effectively 0.87

00:07:20.280 his spokesman,

00:07:21.080 Winnie Mandela.

00:07:21.840 Yeah.

00:07:22.280 And she was lionized

00:07:23.540 in the United States.

00:07:24.060 She was a hero.

00:07:24.700 She was the mother

00:07:25.160 of an emerging nation,

00:07:27.520 you know,

00:07:27.860 a woman of peace

00:07:29.160 and decency,

00:07:30.200 really a transcendent figure,

00:07:31.260 a holy figure.

00:07:31.800 And then it turned out

00:07:34.020 that actually she was a murderer 1.00

00:07:35.040 who had, you know,

00:07:38.100 burned to death

00:07:39.000 or supervised the murder

00:07:40.260 of a bunch of different people.

00:07:41.460 Tell us about that.

00:07:42.480 Yes, so let me firstly say

00:07:44.000 that I have a lot of respect

00:07:44.880 for Nelson Mandela.

00:07:45.840 I think in terms of his efforts

00:07:47.820 and as I say,

00:07:49.420 I think he's the best

00:07:50.680 the ANC has ever had to offer.

00:07:52.900 Winnie Mandela,

00:07:53.560 his wife,

00:07:54.260 not so much.

00:07:55.180 So she famously,

00:07:56.260 I mean,

00:07:56.520 she's been involved

00:07:57.160 with a lot of things,

00:07:58.140 including what was called

00:08:00.060 the Mandela Football Club.

00:08:02.180 Yes.

00:08:02.540 Which was a gang

00:08:03.740 that was involved

00:08:04.380 with violence

00:08:04.940 and killings

00:08:06.340 of innocent people.

00:08:07.200 And she famously said

00:08:08.800 at a political rally

00:08:10.540 with our necklaces

00:08:12.080 and our matches,

00:08:13.080 we will liberate this country.

00:08:14.620 Yes.

00:08:14.880 Which of course

00:08:15.340 is a reference

00:08:15.920 to the necklace murders,

00:08:17.180 which was very popular

00:08:18.040 in South Africa

00:08:18.680 and still happens

00:08:19.460 in South Africa.

00:08:20.720 That's when you take

00:08:21.520 a rubber tire,

00:08:23.140 you fill it with petrol

00:08:24.060 or gasoline

00:08:25.340 and you put it

00:08:26.500 around someone's neck

00:08:27.680 so that it's bound

00:08:28.840 around their arms 0.97

00:08:29.560 and you set it on fire 0.97

00:08:30.600 and then you stone 0.99

00:08:31.900 that person 1.00

00:08:32.480 while he's burning to death.

00:08:34.220 And that happened.

00:08:34.840 There were,

00:08:35.280 I think,

00:08:35.580 500 or 700 people

00:08:36.740 were killed like that

00:08:37.680 during political violence

00:08:39.060 in South Africa

00:08:39.560 and she encouraged this.

00:08:41.260 Initially,

00:08:41.780 she denied it

00:08:42.420 and then it came out

00:08:43.060 that it was recorded

00:08:43.780 of her saying this.

00:08:46.140 So yes,

00:08:46.960 it's very bizarre

00:08:48.720 that someone like

00:08:49.560 Winnie Mandela

00:08:50.080 is a hero today.

00:08:51.500 And was a hero then.

00:08:52.940 And so that,

00:08:53.860 to me,

00:08:54.320 was a sign

00:08:54.980 that these are,

00:08:56.140 these are not,

00:08:57.480 you know,

00:08:57.780 liberators,

00:08:58.260 that they're oppressors.

00:08:59.660 Yeah.

00:08:59.980 Yeah.

00:09:00.480 And so,

00:09:01.460 but no one in the West

00:09:02.640 wanted to think that.

00:09:03.600 It was like a really simple tale

00:09:04.880 of white oppression,

00:09:05.960 of noble black people

00:09:06.900 and by definition,

00:09:08.920 the black people.

00:09:09.400 I mean,

00:09:10.060 there were oppressed black people,

00:09:11.160 of course.

00:09:13.100 And there were noble black people,

00:09:14.440 but the leadership 0.96

00:09:15.100 always struck me as evil.

00:09:16.280 Yes.

00:09:17.440 So there were some better

00:09:18.960 and some worse people

00:09:19.940 in the leadership.

00:09:21.240 I think an important component here

00:09:23.620 that is very well documented,

00:09:25.200 it's not a secret,

00:09:26.140 but a lot of people

00:09:26.700 don't seem to want to know this

00:09:28.380 or recognize this,

00:09:29.720 is the very strong alliance

00:09:31.300 that the ANC has always had

00:09:33.060 and still has

00:09:33.720 with the South African Communist Party

00:09:35.340 and the extent

00:09:36.520 to which they were supported,

00:09:38.500 not just by the Soviet Union,

00:09:40.380 also by the Vietnamese

00:09:41.500 and by Mao Tse-Tung as well,

00:09:44.160 implementing what they call

00:09:45.740 the People's War strategy

00:09:46.880 that they got from Mao Tse-Tung.

00:09:49.720 So yes,

00:09:50.060 it was very much,

00:09:50.920 the ANC saw themselves

00:09:52.340 as being the African

00:09:53.940 or South African frontier

00:09:55.880 of promoting a socialist

00:09:57.880 or communist revolution.

00:10:00.560 So how did it turn out?

00:10:04.080 Well,

00:10:04.860 you mean in terms of

00:10:06.060 where we are today?

00:10:07.280 Let's just follow different threads.

00:10:10.280 So let's just start with,

00:10:11.680 I don't know,

00:10:12.220 technology and infrastructure.

00:10:13.880 What did,

00:10:14.340 in 1993,

00:10:16.180 South Africa was famously 0.85

00:10:17.540 the most prosperous society

00:10:20.200 in Africa by far,

00:10:21.560 right?

00:10:22.960 Among the most prosperous

00:10:23.940 in the world,

00:10:24.600 correct?

00:10:25.040 They had nuclear weapons

00:10:25.900 in South Africa.

00:10:26.520 Yes.

00:10:26.740 Yeah.

00:10:28.940 What is it like now,

00:10:30.420 30 years later?

00:10:32.320 Well,

00:10:32.980 the reality is that

00:10:34.880 virtually every sphere

00:10:36.900 of society is collapsing

00:10:38.300 with the exception of taxation,

00:10:40.720 of course,

00:10:41.040 and tax collection.

00:10:41.780 That's still very,

00:10:42.860 very efficient.

00:10:43.860 Maybe I can explain it this way.

00:10:46.160 So America has a somewhat skewed

00:10:49.900 tax system with,

00:10:52.000 if my information is correct,

00:10:53.440 about 85% of tax,

00:10:55.720 income tax in America

00:10:56.760 is paid by about 10%

00:10:58.440 of the people.

00:10:59.160 I think that's correct.

00:10:59.940 So one in 10.

00:11:01.160 In South Africa,

00:11:02.160 85% of income tax

00:11:03.900 is paid by one in 30 people.

00:11:05.760 So it's a very small number

00:11:08.260 of people,

00:11:08.780 a very small portion

00:11:11.100 of society that pays tax,

00:11:13.520 that is heavily taxed.

00:11:15.360 And then about almost half

00:11:16.860 of the population

00:11:17.940 in South Africa

00:11:18.960 get money from the government

00:11:20.060 in the form of social grants.

00:11:21.800 If you add government employees,

00:11:24.260 conservative estimates

00:11:25.240 say that 50% of people

00:11:27.860 in South Africa

00:11:28.320 get money from the government.

00:11:30.080 Some estimates say

00:11:31.140 it's up to 60% of adults,

00:11:33.480 voting age adults,

00:11:34.340 get money from the government

00:11:35.380 each year.

00:11:36.600 So then this money,

00:11:39.120 of course,

00:11:39.500 is then used.

00:11:40.260 It's given out as social grants.

00:11:42.100 But what's left

00:11:43.260 is used to set up

00:11:44.880 these programs

00:11:45.740 that are actively discriminating

00:11:47.160 against taxpayers.

00:11:48.480 Like, I mean,

00:11:49.100 there are so many examples.

00:11:50.020 One of the most recent one

00:11:51.180 is this blacks-only fund

00:11:53.260 that the government

00:11:53.860 has set up

00:11:54.580 whereby they give money

00:11:55.640 to black entrepreneurs

00:11:56.640 exclusively.

00:11:58.100 So this is happening.

00:11:59.380 And then on top of that,

00:12:01.040 so after you spend

00:12:02.580 your tax money

00:12:03.580 to fund these

00:12:04.440 government programs

00:12:05.380 that are discriminating

00:12:06.120 against you,

00:12:07.260 you have to spend

00:12:08.120 what is left

00:12:08.620 to do the things

00:12:09.420 that the government

00:12:09.880 was supposed to be doing.

00:12:11.260 So the classical definition

00:12:12.500 of a government

00:12:12.980 is that it should protect

00:12:14.020 life, liberty, and property.

00:12:15.860 The classic liberal view,

00:12:17.160 we're a bit Ciceronian,

00:12:18.240 so we think a government

00:12:19.000 has to do more than that.

00:12:20.820 But if we use

00:12:21.900 those three things,

00:12:22.840 the government's

00:12:23.320 not protecting our lives.

00:12:25.220 There's about,

00:12:27.080 if this interview

00:12:28.120 that we're about to have

00:12:28.920 is two hours,

00:12:29.760 there will be about

00:12:30.460 seven murders

00:12:31.160 in South Africa

00:12:31.900 in this time.

00:12:33.420 Government does not

00:12:34.300 protect liberty.

00:12:34.980 It's actively targeting

00:12:36.200 schools of minority communities,

00:12:37.940 actively denying

00:12:38.760 the identity

00:12:39.660 and the rights

00:12:40.300 of minority communities.

00:12:42.160 And it's certainly

00:12:42.800 not protecting property.

00:12:44.160 It's actively involved

00:12:45.600 with the program

00:12:46.220 to empower the government

00:12:47.220 to expropriate

00:12:48.100 private property

00:12:48.960 without compensation.

00:12:50.620 So,

00:12:51.820 and then we have to use

00:12:52.860 the money that is left

00:12:53.800 to pay for our own

00:12:55.060 private security,

00:12:56.200 to become involved

00:12:57.000 with organizations,

00:12:57.900 to fulfill the things

00:12:58.780 that the government

00:12:59.280 was supposed to be doing

00:13:00.360 with the tax money

00:13:01.700 that we paid

00:13:02.240 in the first place.

00:13:04.960 One of the reasons

00:13:05.920 that I find this story

00:13:07.440 so fascinating

00:13:08.440 is not simply because,

00:13:11.140 you know,

00:13:11.380 it's like the classical,

00:13:12.960 you know,

00:13:13.360 irony of history.

00:13:14.440 This, you know,

00:13:15.180 group comes in

00:13:15.840 with one name

00:13:16.380 and then achieves

00:13:16.880 exactly the opposite.

00:13:17.880 We're going to have a,

00:13:18.700 you know,

00:13:18.880 we're going to end racism

00:13:19.800 and then make racism

00:13:20.660 much worse,

00:13:21.380 but also because

00:13:22.480 they have gone about it

00:13:23.660 in a way that's

00:13:24.300 almost like American,

00:13:26.600 with the same language,

00:13:27.640 the same diversity

00:13:28.920 as our strength

00:13:29.580 kind of sloganeering

00:13:30.420 and it's had the same result,

00:13:32.460 which is to basically 1.00

00:13:33.620 kill whites. 1.00

00:13:34.820 And I, 1.00

00:13:35.720 I mean,

00:13:36.120 that's just true.

00:13:37.320 And I,

00:13:38.160 I wonder if you see that.

00:13:40.380 It's almost like you imported 1.00

00:13:41.680 our kind of

00:13:43.700 intellectual class framework

00:13:46.420 for this project.

00:13:47.700 No,

00:13:47.800 that's absolutely the case.

00:13:48.800 So,

00:13:49.000 so there's a theory,

00:13:50.220 there was this video

00:13:50.840 that just went viral

00:13:51.860 on social media

00:13:52.860 of this guy

00:13:53.440 talking about

00:13:54.280 how white people 0.99

00:13:55.520 are subhuman 1.00

00:13:56.240 and all of that.

00:13:57.540 And they get,

00:13:58.740 well,

00:13:58.940 this is taught

00:13:59.420 at universities

00:14:00.020 in South Africa.

00:14:00.800 There's a theory

00:14:01.340 called Azania critical theory.

00:14:03.240 Azania is a pan-African word

00:14:04.820 for South Africa.

00:14:06.080 And they actually get this

00:14:07.460 from Americans

00:14:08.240 like Robin DiAngelo,

00:14:10.380 who's this Ibrahim X.

00:14:11.480 Kendi,

00:14:12.400 Tanayisi Coates,

00:14:13.240 these people.

00:14:13.700 They get it from them

00:14:14.420 and then they put

00:14:15.780 an African flavor on it,

00:14:17.340 which essentially boils down

00:14:19.060 to a theory

00:14:20.120 that justifies

00:14:21.440 the targeting

00:14:22.580 and extermination 1.00

00:14:23.640 of the white minority. 0.99

00:14:24.960 And so the theory

00:14:26.380 to summarize

00:14:26.980 goes more or less

00:14:27.860 like this.

00:14:29.140 There's an African term

00:14:30.080 called Ubuntu,

00:14:31.080 which means

00:14:31.640 brotherliness

00:14:33.280 or it's about

00:14:34.680 your internal humanity.

00:14:36.300 It's a Zulu term.

00:14:37.640 And the theory goes

00:14:38.820 that white people 1.00

00:14:40.100 are incapable 1.00

00:14:40.720 of having Ubuntu.

00:14:42.440 But Ubuntu

00:14:43.580 is the essence

00:14:44.800 of humanity.

00:14:45.500 So if you don't have it,

00:14:46.340 you're not truly human.

00:14:47.780 So it boils down

00:14:49.120 that the logical conclusion 1.00

00:14:50.460 is that if you kill 1.00

00:14:51.360 a white person, 1.00

00:14:52.060 then you did not

00:14:54.040 actually commit murder.

00:14:55.660 So this is not

00:14:56.660 widely believed

00:14:57.780 in South Africa,

00:14:58.280 but this is taught

00:14:59.120 at universities

00:14:59.960 by university professors

00:15:01.200 and it's certainly believed

00:15:02.920 by radical elements.

00:15:04.720 It's a predicate

00:15:05.140 for genocide.

00:15:06.180 I mean,

00:15:06.360 it's always the same

00:15:07.140 in every,

00:15:07.740 I mean,

00:15:07.980 we're watching

00:15:08.520 in parts of the world now,

00:15:09.320 they're not fully human,

00:15:10.360 right? 1.00

00:15:10.760 So we can kill them 1.00

00:15:11.540 because they're fully human. 1.00

00:15:12.340 Then it's,

00:15:12.800 of course, 1.00

00:15:13.460 a grave sin to kill them. 1.00

00:15:14.980 Yeah, 1.00

00:15:15.180 well,

00:15:15.440 we've always been saying

00:15:16.600 that there's not

00:15:17.160 a genocide in South Africa

00:15:18.280 looking at what happened

00:15:19.460 in Rwanda

00:15:20.000 and so forth.

00:15:20.560 It's not the same thing,

00:15:22.260 but it is very alarming

00:15:23.760 to look at some

00:15:24.600 of these claims

00:15:25.240 that are being made

00:15:26.200 and to compare that

00:15:27.480 to what was made

00:15:28.200 in Rwanda.

00:15:29.320 Well,

00:15:29.860 every country,

00:15:30.820 and,

00:15:30.980 you know,

00:15:31.220 genocide broadly defined,

00:15:32.860 an attempt

00:15:33.960 to eliminate

00:15:35.120 a group of people

00:15:35.760 on the basis

00:15:36.240 of their race

00:15:36.800 or ethnicity.

00:15:38.040 Yeah,

00:15:38.500 and we have

00:15:39.020 these political parties

00:15:40.040 chanting,

00:15:40.660 I mean,

00:15:40.840 you've seen this,

00:15:41.560 you've reported on this,

00:15:42.400 chanting, 1.00

00:15:42.820 kill the boer, 1.00

00:15:43.440 kill the farmer 1.00

00:15:44.020 to a stadium 1.00

00:15:44.680 filled with people.

00:15:46.460 And it's not just rhetoric.

00:15:47.900 So they would say,

00:15:48.480 no,

00:15:48.680 it's just a metaphor.

00:15:50.080 But it's preceded

00:15:51.300 by a speech

00:15:52.020 about how white people 1.00

00:15:53.880 are criminals 0.99

00:15:54.340 and should be treated 0.88

00:15:55.140 like criminals,

00:15:55.940 how everything they have

00:15:56.820 is illegitimate

00:15:57.540 and stolen,

00:15:58.440 in which people

00:15:59.280 are encouraged

00:15:59.840 to go and invade

00:16:00.640 their farms

00:16:01.320 and so forth.

00:16:02.120 And then they chant, 1.00

00:16:03.040 kill the boer, 1.00

00:16:03.540 kill the farmer, 1.00

00:16:04.220 and they make 1.00

00:16:04.580 these hand gestures.

00:16:05.840 Of course,

00:16:06.120 the boer is a reference

00:16:06.980 to the Afrikaner people.

00:16:09.360 But the reality

00:16:10.620 is also that

00:16:11.180 the farmers

00:16:11.580 are being attacked

00:16:12.340 and killed

00:16:12.760 on their farms.

00:16:13.320 So it's not just

00:16:14.020 a metaphor.

00:16:15.400 And our attempt

00:16:16.620 at researching this

00:16:17.620 has found that

00:16:18.400 there's an increase

00:16:19.280 in farm attacks.

00:16:20.320 Obviously,

00:16:20.800 when the political climate

00:16:21.820 becomes heated

00:16:23.300 or warmer,

00:16:24.560 and these type

00:16:25.280 of statements

00:16:26.180 are made

00:16:26.680 in a way

00:16:27.460 that's highly publicized,

00:16:28.900 you do get

00:16:29.580 an increase

00:16:30.120 in farm attacks.

00:16:31.040 And it's very brutal

00:16:32.020 and very horrific

00:16:33.180 farm attacks

00:16:33.780 that we see.

00:16:34.680 So the farm attacks

00:16:36.480 are attacks

00:16:36.820 against white farmers,

00:16:37.960 not against...

00:16:38.360 Not exclusively

00:16:39.080 white farmers,

00:16:39.800 but it's attacks

00:16:40.300 against farmers

00:16:40.960 in South Africa,

00:16:41.580 of which the majority

00:16:42.520 is white.

00:16:43.200 Right.

00:16:43.660 Okay.

00:16:44.360 So this has been

00:16:45.360 going on a long time.

00:16:46.660 I think it's been

00:16:47.160 well documented.

00:16:47.880 I believe you wrote

00:16:48.500 a book about it,

00:16:49.960 which has become

00:16:51.620 very...

00:16:53.440 Sold a lot of copies

00:16:54.500 on Amazon,

00:16:55.000 I noticed.

00:16:55.540 Yes.

00:16:56.860 And so none of this

00:16:58.040 is like a secret,

00:16:59.440 and all of it's

00:17:00.040 verifiable because,

00:17:01.420 you know,

00:17:01.660 dead people are

00:17:02.400 pretty easy to track

00:17:03.160 because they're dead.

00:17:04.080 Yeah, we have the names

00:17:04.820 of the people

00:17:05.320 who've been murdered.

00:17:06.080 Exactly.

00:17:06.280 Yeah.

00:17:06.400 But in the United States,

00:17:08.700 the country that inspired

00:17:10.140 the revolution

00:17:11.500 that you're living through,

00:17:12.760 our media have ignored that

00:17:15.020 and then gone beyond

00:17:17.040 ignoring it

00:17:17.660 to attack anyone

00:17:18.860 who brings it up

00:17:19.700 as a, quote,

00:17:20.260 white supremacist.

00:17:21.640 Yeah. 0.95

00:17:22.040 Well, I can tell you

00:17:24.260 so many stories about this.

00:17:25.540 Please do.

00:17:26.080 For example,

00:17:26.560 I was on your show

00:17:27.400 a few years ago

00:17:27.940 to talk about

00:17:28.740 the farm murders

00:17:29.580 and the extent

00:17:30.860 to which we were attacked

00:17:32.320 by American media

00:17:33.640 as a result of that.

00:17:34.760 I had someone from CNN

00:17:35.900 come see me

00:17:36.880 in my office

00:17:37.420 in Pretoria

00:17:38.180 and to interview me

00:17:40.160 about farm attacks

00:17:41.240 and the entire interview

00:17:42.640 was about you.

00:17:43.800 So he would put things

00:17:45.380 to me and say,

00:17:45.960 did you know

00:17:46.360 Tucker Carlson

00:17:47.060 said the following,

00:17:48.100 do you agree

00:17:48.740 with this statement

00:17:49.440 and did you know

00:17:50.880 that Donald Trump

00:17:51.580 said this

00:17:52.140 and are you comfortable

00:17:52.880 with this?

00:17:53.820 And so I paused him

00:17:54.600 at one stage

00:17:55.220 and I said,

00:17:55.680 what are we doing?

00:17:56.460 I thought we had

00:17:57.220 to talk about farm murders

00:17:58.420 and what's happening

00:17:59.160 in South Africa.

00:18:00.360 But the only,

00:18:01.060 so the argument was

00:18:02.080 that because Trump

00:18:03.040 made that comment

00:18:03.880 about farm murders

00:18:04.780 in 2018,

00:18:06.580 it has to be

00:18:08.240 a non-existing issue

00:18:09.220 because Trump 1.00

00:18:09.760 is a liar 1.00

00:18:10.280 and everything he says 1.00

00:18:11.120 is false

00:18:11.560 and the same with you

00:18:12.600 because you spoke about it,

00:18:13.900 that means that

00:18:14.600 the problem doesn't exist

00:18:16.060 and we have to prove

00:18:16.940 that it doesn't exist

00:18:17.760 in order to get to you.

00:18:18.760 Well, not only

00:18:19.180 doesn't it exist,

00:18:20.980 you're not allowed

00:18:21.480 to complain about it existing.

00:18:23.380 Yes, yes.

00:18:24.480 It's somehow

00:18:25.420 a moral crime

00:18:28.760 to notice

00:18:29.960 and to not like it

00:18:31.720 when people are murdered

00:18:32.560 for the color of their skin.

00:18:34.340 It's bizarre.

00:18:35.540 Well, it's not bizarre.

00:18:37.580 They're telegraphing

00:18:38.460 genocidal intent

00:18:39.260 when they're telling you,

00:18:40.840 no, you're not getting killed

00:18:42.480 and yes,

00:18:42.900 it's a good thing

00:18:43.380 that you are.

00:18:44.020 Yes, and no,

00:18:45.040 you're not getting killed.

00:18:46.040 What are they saying?

00:18:46.620 Yeah, it's no,

00:18:47.440 you're not getting killed

00:18:48.140 and if you are, 0.96

00:18:48.940 you deserve it.

00:18:49.660 Right.

00:18:50.560 Because of a variety of things

00:18:51.960 because the attackers

00:18:53.340 are poor

00:18:54.000 or because remember

00:18:55.020 all the horrible things 1.00

00:18:55.920 that white people have done 1.00

00:18:57.060 in South Africa

00:18:58.220 and outside of South Africa.

00:19:00.080 So there's always

00:19:00.980 a justification

00:19:01.640 and so another example,

00:19:03.980 just in 2018,

00:19:05.380 again,

00:19:05.600 after you spoke about this

00:19:06.760 and after Trump

00:19:07.920 spoke about this,

00:19:09.200 the president of South Africa,

00:19:10.280 Cyril Ramaphosa,

00:19:10.960 came to America

00:19:12.240 and he spoke at an event

00:19:14.120 in New York

00:19:15.760 and he said

00:19:16.440 there are no killings

00:19:18.020 of farmers

00:19:18.640 in South Africa

00:19:19.400 and he just flat out

00:19:21.200 denied the existence

00:19:22.620 of the problem

00:19:23.280 and he said this

00:19:24.240 on an international platform.

00:19:25.460 He said it's not happening,

00:19:26.400 it's not true

00:19:26.940 and the worst of it all

00:19:29.500 was how the media

00:19:30.880 knew this was wrong,

00:19:32.540 especially mainstream media

00:19:33.620 in South Africa.

00:19:34.180 They knew that it's not true

00:19:35.220 and so they immediately

00:19:36.600 rushed to his defense,

00:19:38.280 writing articles like

00:19:39.460 this is what he actually

00:19:40.900 meant to say

00:19:41.840 and then they sort of

00:19:42.640 justify what's happening

00:19:43.900 and so it's,

00:19:45.820 we really do sometimes feel

00:19:47.480 that our biggest battle

00:19:49.060 is not primarily against

00:19:50.740 what the government is doing

00:19:51.680 but against how the media

00:19:52.680 is reporting.

00:19:52.940 But just consider this,

00:19:54.140 I mean,

00:19:54.560 if, you know,

00:19:56.640 if Tootsies and Kilgali

00:19:58.900 in 1994 said,

00:20:00.360 boy, I, you know,

00:20:01.420 a lot of us seem to be

00:20:02.680 getting hacked to death

00:20:03.420 by machetes

00:20:03.980 and reporters

00:20:06.280 or political figures 0.99

00:20:07.200 said, shut up, 0.99

00:20:09.020 you know, 1.00

00:20:09.460 you're a Tootsie supremacist 0.92

00:20:11.460 for saying so,

00:20:12.460 I think we could fairly say

00:20:14.420 that people shouting them down

00:20:15.820 are pro-genocide

00:20:17.360 of Tootsies.

00:20:18.280 Yeah.

00:20:18.540 I mean,

00:20:18.780 what's the other explanation?

00:20:20.120 I don't really get it.

00:20:21.140 I mean,

00:20:21.380 what, honestly,

00:20:22.100 what's the other explanation?

00:20:23.960 Well,

00:20:24.240 the explanation that is used

00:20:26.320 in court cases,

00:20:27.520 so by the way,

00:20:28.060 this kill the boer chant

00:20:29.240 was found in court

00:20:30.620 not to be hate speech

00:20:31.640 according to South African law.

00:20:33.200 It's not hate speech.

00:20:33.860 Killing people is not hate speech.

00:20:34.820 Yeah, 1.00

00:20:35.080 chanting about killing people.

00:20:36.840 You know why it's not hate speech?

00:20:37.900 Because it's not speech they hate.

00:20:39.340 That's why.

00:20:40.000 Well,

00:20:40.440 maybe that's it.

00:20:41.040 It's speech they approve of.

00:20:41.700 So the arguments that is used

00:20:45.040 or are used

00:20:46.200 to defend this type of rhetoric

00:20:48.280 would always be something like

00:20:49.800 you need to see it in context.

00:20:51.600 You need to remember

00:20:52.360 the apartheid system.

00:20:53.680 You need to remember

00:20:54.220 what these people went through. 1.00

00:20:55.460 That they deserve to be killed. 1.00

00:20:56.680 You need to remember that. 1.00

00:20:57.700 Yeah,

00:20:57.860 that's,

00:20:58.240 well,

00:20:58.480 so the argument is that

00:20:59.520 they're actually commemorating

00:21:00.780 the historic struggle

00:21:01.940 and that's why

00:21:03.020 they are still chanting this.

00:21:04.140 I would disagree with you.

00:21:05.060 I think what they're saying is

00:21:06.220 the people getting murdered 0.99

00:21:07.300 deserve to be murdered, 0.99

00:21:08.260 so stop complaining about it. 1.00

00:21:10.140 Yeah,

00:21:10.300 well,

00:21:10.580 a few people are saying that out loud,

00:21:12.520 but there does seem to be the same.

00:21:13.640 I mean,

00:21:13.680 look,

00:21:13.900 at some point,

00:21:15.200 you know,

00:21:15.480 I don't need you to explain your motive

00:21:18.300 if I have a clear glimpse of your actions.

00:21:21.140 If I know what you're doing,

00:21:22.240 I don't have to hear you explain

00:21:23.760 why you're doing it.

00:21:24.540 I already know

00:21:25.260 because the motive

00:21:27.240 is displayed in the action.

00:21:29.740 Do you know what I mean?

00:21:30.360 Yep.

00:21:30.700 So,

00:21:30.900 in other words, 1.00

00:21:31.620 if I pull out a gun and shoot you 1.00

00:21:33.140 and somebody said, 1.00

00:21:34.180 did you not like Ernst?

00:21:35.760 Yeah.

00:21:36.280 I can say whatever I want, 0.99

00:21:37.520 but I just shot you. 0.83

00:21:38.440 So I think it's kind of, 0.95

00:21:39.360 fair to infer that I didn't like you.

00:21:41.660 Yeah,

00:21:41.900 but the motive is also explained in the words.

00:21:45.520 So they're trying to defend the words.

00:21:47.180 It's a famous story of Chamberlain and Churchill.

00:21:49.400 You know,

00:21:49.540 when Chamberlain came back from meeting Hitler

00:21:51.420 and he said,

00:21:52.100 no,

00:21:52.340 well,

00:21:52.620 I met him and,

00:21:53.820 you know,

00:21:54.400 I think we're going to find peace.

00:21:55.880 And then Churchill said,

00:21:56.720 no,

00:21:56.860 well,

00:21:56.980 I read what he said

00:21:58.020 and I believed him.

00:21:59.440 And so you can just read what they're saying.

00:22:01.700 If you read the policy documents

00:22:03.100 of the ruling party,

00:22:03.880 they say they want to convert South Africa

00:22:06.000 into a communist society.

00:22:07.420 They want to have a revolution in South Africa.

00:22:09.740 And if you listen to the more radical parties

00:22:11.560 to the left of them, 1.00

00:22:12.500 they openly chant about killing white people. 1.00

00:22:15.500 So, 1.00

00:22:16.020 so they say these things out loud.

00:22:17.700 It's,

00:22:17.980 it's,

00:22:18.920 and now they are obviously more to the fringe.

00:22:21.920 You find the more extreme rhetoric in South Africa,

00:22:23.960 but,

00:22:24.360 but it's very alarming

00:22:25.780 and,

00:22:25.980 and how people just rush to their defense all the time.

00:22:29.220 Permanent Washington is terrified

00:22:30.780 and distraught by the Trump revolution now in progress.

00:22:34.060 And it is a revolution

00:22:35.140 and it's unfolding along very familiar lines.

00:22:38.600 The White House is now giving voters

00:22:40.320 what they actually want

00:22:41.940 and what they've wanted for a long time.

00:22:43.580 And that's the one thing

00:22:44.360 that permanent Washington doesn't want to give them.

00:22:46.640 They are working to stop it.

00:22:49.860 Fortunately,

00:22:50.220 our friends at Heritage,

00:22:51.120 the Heritage Foundation in D.C.,

00:22:52.380 are fighting back.

00:22:53.380 They've spent years thinking this through.

00:22:55.200 How do you dismantle permanent D.C.,

00:22:57.200 the deep structures underneath everything?

00:22:59.100 How do you train replacements

00:23:00.140 for the bureaucrats getting canned?

00:23:01.700 How do you enact policies

00:23:02.880 that voters actually voted for?

00:23:05.400 Well,

00:23:05.560 now that Biden is gone,

00:23:06.780 Heritage's vision is finally becoming reality

00:23:08.760 and you can help push it forward

00:23:09.940 by going to heritage.org slash Tucker

00:23:12.580 and making a tax-deductible donation.

00:23:14.700 Your gift fuels their American rescue plan

00:23:17.440 and helps stop permanent Washington

00:23:19.360 from crushing it,

00:23:20.800 from strangling it in the cradle.

00:23:22.580 Heritage has been doing this a long time.

00:23:24.180 They've been successful

00:23:24.900 and they're more aggressive now than ever.

00:23:27.540 Their work is worth supporting.

00:23:28.620 Go to heritage.org slash Tucker

00:23:30.340 to make your gift today.

00:23:32.080 We hope you will.

00:23:33.240 They speak of darkness and danger,

00:23:35.820 but totalitarian novels also give us hope,

00:23:38.700 showing us how to defend our society

00:23:41.220 from the horrors of tyranny.

00:23:43.400 In Hillsdale College's free online course,

00:23:45.960 Totalitarian Novels,

00:23:47.420 Hillsdale President Larry Arn

00:23:49.000 teaches us lessons from classic novels

00:23:51.300 like George Orwell's 1984

00:23:53.200 that are as relevant today as ever.

00:23:56.740 Sign up now for Hillsdale College's

00:23:58.680 free online course,

00:24:00.220 Totalitarian Novels,

00:24:01.480 at tuckerforhillsdale.com.

00:24:03.780 That's tuckerforhillsdale.com.

00:24:06.700 Did you know you could invest in crypto?

00:24:08.700 through your retirement account?

00:24:10.300 That's right.

00:24:11.060 iTrust Capital allows Americans

00:24:12.320 to invest in over 60

00:24:13.720 of the most popular cryptocurrencies

00:24:15.060 like Bitcoin in a tax-advantaged IRA.

00:24:18.360 Take control of your future.

00:24:19.960 Get started at itrustcapital.com

00:24:22.020 forward slash tucker

00:24:22.920 and use the promo code tucker

00:24:24.500 to get a $100 funding bonus.

00:24:26.820 That's itrustcapital.com

00:24:28.220 forward slash tucker. 0.92

00:24:29.700 Paid ad for informational purposes only.

00:24:31.480 Taxes may apply.

00:24:32.300 Crypto is speculative

00:24:33.040 and carries risk of loss.

00:24:34.200 iTrust Capital does not provide

00:24:35.300 legal investment or tax advice.

00:24:36.580 So that's the part that bothers me.

00:24:38.020 Like, I'm not surprised.

00:24:38.800 I'll just say it.

00:24:39.920 I'm not surprised at all.

00:24:41.140 I watched what happened in Rhodesia

00:24:42.420 when it became Zimbabwe in 1980

00:24:44.320 and, you know,

00:24:45.700 something identical happened.

00:24:47.440 There was a lot of killing

00:24:48.720 and they drove it, you know,

00:24:51.180 to the bottom rank of nations,

00:24:53.020 the poorest country in the world.

00:24:54.040 And following exactly the same script,

00:24:56.920 I always thought that would happen

00:24:58.080 in South Africa.

00:24:58.900 I wanted to be wrong.

00:25:00.040 Turns out I wasn't.

00:25:01.680 What really bothers me

00:25:03.580 is that the West

00:25:04.900 has allowed this

00:25:06.760 and cheered it on

00:25:07.660 because I live in the West.

00:25:09.180 I live in the United States.

00:25:10.180 So, like,

00:25:10.940 I don't want to think

00:25:11.820 that my leaders

00:25:12.440 are for killing people 0.99

00:25:13.820 on the basis of race, 0.99

00:25:14.780 but watching

00:25:16.300 how they've stood by

00:25:17.980 and applauded,

00:25:19.600 Barack Obama's applauded

00:25:20.540 all this stuff,

00:25:21.660 it tells you everything

00:25:22.480 about Barack Obama

00:25:23.260 and other American leaders,

00:25:24.700 doesn't it?

00:25:25.320 Yes, and this brings us

00:25:27.120 back to the 90s.

00:25:28.140 So, during the 90s,

00:25:29.120 it was, again,

00:25:29.640 after the Cold War

00:25:30.440 and the world

00:25:31.000 and especially the West

00:25:31.860 was high on ideology

00:25:33.420 and this idea

00:25:34.300 that, you know,

00:25:35.180 the world will become liberal

00:25:36.280 and everyone's going

00:25:37.080 to become like us

00:25:37.980 and everyone in the world

00:25:39.360 is just an American

00:25:40.320 waiting to be liberated

00:25:41.520 and we just need to go

00:25:42.940 and liberate them

00:25:43.580 from their own

00:25:44.280 traditional beliefs

00:25:45.300 and so forth.

00:25:46.480 And so, it really is the case

00:25:48.100 that America

00:25:49.160 and many Western countries

00:25:50.460 played a very significant role

00:25:52.440 in creating the South Africa

00:25:53.900 that we have today.

00:25:54.680 Oh, I'm aware.

00:25:55.180 I'm aware.

00:25:55.920 And so, it's,

00:25:57.220 we don't want other people

00:25:58.620 to fix our problems

00:25:59.660 on our behalf.

00:26:00.440 We want to solve

00:26:01.100 our own problems,

00:26:02.060 but you can certainly

00:26:03.260 make the case

00:26:03.980 that the West

00:26:05.160 has a moral responsibility

00:26:06.460 towards the people

00:26:07.320 in South Africa.

00:26:08.000 Of course.

00:26:08.660 The West forced, 0.89

00:26:10.300 through sanctions boycotts,

00:26:12.380 the change of government

00:26:13.220 that put the ANC in power.

00:26:15.600 So, absolutely.

00:26:17.340 In the same way,

00:26:17.920 the West has armed Ukraine.

00:26:19.160 So, they have an obligation

00:26:20.100 to make sure,

00:26:21.980 you know,

00:26:22.540 to at least know

00:26:23.620 what's happening

00:26:24.160 and to be honest about it,

00:26:25.180 not to hide their own,

00:26:27.040 you know,

00:26:27.460 responsibility for the crime.

00:26:28.600 Yeah, and so,

00:26:29.360 there's this false dichotomy

00:26:30.460 in South Africa

00:26:32.060 or with regard to South Africa

00:26:33.300 that if you are against

00:26:35.140 what's happening

00:26:35.820 in South Africa now,

00:26:36.880 that means you want

00:26:37.860 the apartheid system.

00:26:39.400 So, you have a choice.

00:26:40.760 And this one former judge

00:26:42.400 recently said this,

00:26:43.460 who's retired,

00:26:44.060 he said that

00:26:44.560 we have a choice

00:26:45.460 in South Africa

00:26:46.000 between a moral system

00:26:48.140 that is dysfunctional,

00:26:49.480 which is the current system,

00:26:50.780 or an immoral system

00:26:52.080 that is a functional one,

00:26:53.280 which is the former system.

00:26:54.840 And so, the problem is

00:26:55.580 if you criticize

00:26:56.160 what's happening

00:26:56.740 in South Africa now,

00:26:57.500 you get accused

00:26:58.040 of wanting to return

00:26:59.040 to the apartheid system.

00:26:59.960 But the truth is

00:27:00.560 you can reject both.

00:27:01.960 You can say,

00:27:02.500 we don't want the apartheid system

00:27:03.900 and we don't want

00:27:04.760 what's happening

00:27:05.280 in South Africa

00:27:05.940 at the moment.

00:27:06.760 We want to govern ourselves.

00:27:08.180 We want freedom.

00:27:09.700 But it seems

00:27:10.900 that a lot of people

00:27:11.560 are incapable

00:27:12.200 of making that conclusion

00:27:13.880 or leaving any room

00:27:16.300 for saying that

00:27:17.160 both these systems are wrong

00:27:18.960 and we need a better system,

00:27:20.540 a system that is

00:27:21.240 much more decentralized,

00:27:22.580 a system in which

00:27:23.280 the various nations

00:27:25.120 who live in South Africa,

00:27:26.380 because South Africa

00:27:26.860 is very big,

00:27:27.760 it's almost as big as Europe,

00:27:29.480 the various nations

00:27:30.660 living in South Africa

00:27:31.440 should just govern themselves.

00:27:33.440 And that's not

00:27:34.060 what's happening

00:27:34.560 in South Africa.

00:27:35.300 And I think it's

00:27:36.000 a worthy course to pursue.

00:27:38.400 So can I,

00:27:39.280 I think I'm hardly

00:27:41.440 an expert on South Africa

00:27:42.320 at all,

00:27:43.060 but I am American.

00:27:44.080 So if I,

00:27:44.580 can I just give my overview

00:27:45.640 of what,

00:27:46.820 of the different groups

00:27:47.740 in South Africa

00:27:48.260 and you correct me,

00:27:49.240 but just so people

00:27:49.840 following along

00:27:50.340 because I think it matters

00:27:51.120 for reasons I'll explain.

00:27:52.260 So South Africa,

00:27:53.900 there are basically

00:27:55.100 two big white populations

00:27:56.080 in South Africa historically.

00:27:57.540 They're what were called

00:27:58.200 the Boers,

00:27:58.740 the Afrikaners,

00:27:59.540 who are,

00:28:00.340 were religious,

00:28:01.280 basically religious refugees.

00:28:03.060 Yes.

00:28:03.200 A mixture of Dutch

00:28:04.220 and French Huguenots,

00:28:06.060 Protestant Dutch,

00:28:07.140 Protestant French,

00:28:08.660 who moved to Southern Africa

00:28:10.660 for reasons

00:28:12.740 of religious liberty.

00:28:13.780 Okay.

00:28:14.080 And then you had

00:28:14.980 the English

00:28:15.780 who I think were

00:28:17.640 after the Boer War

00:28:18.860 in power.

00:28:19.680 Yes.

00:28:20.960 Who mostly

00:28:22.480 were there

00:28:23.100 for economic reasons

00:28:24.380 and had,

00:28:25.980 in many cases,

00:28:26.960 passports

00:28:27.440 back to Great Britain.

00:28:30.260 And then you had

00:28:31.620 a couple of different

00:28:32.960 African black groups,

00:28:34.680 the largest of which

00:28:36.200 I think is to this day

00:28:37.460 are the Zulus. 0.99

00:28:38.180 Yes.

00:28:38.360 who,

00:28:39.880 like the Afrikaners, 1.00

00:28:40.920 the Boers,

00:28:41.640 and the English,

00:28:42.420 were not native

00:28:43.560 to the area at all.

00:28:45.260 They were newcomers 1.00

00:28:46.840 who arrived,

00:28:47.700 I think,

00:28:48.060 just right before

00:28:48.880 the Boers did. 0.89

00:28:49.580 Yeah,

00:28:49.800 not long before

00:28:50.620 that arrived.

00:28:51.120 Okay,

00:28:51.300 this is all true?

00:28:52.160 Yes,

00:28:52.420 yes,

00:28:52.740 yes.

00:28:53.240 And they,

00:28:54.780 you know,

00:28:56.000 as invading groups

00:28:56.780 often usually do,

00:28:58.460 kind of exterminated

00:28:59.380 the native population

00:29:00.240 who were the,

00:29:01.280 what we would call

00:29:02.220 the Bushmen.

00:29:02.980 Yeah,

00:29:03.340 the Koi and the San, 0.96

00:29:04.260 as they are also called.

00:29:05.100 Thank you.

00:29:05.580 Yes.

00:29:06.120 Okay,

00:29:06.300 so that's my like 0.99

00:29:07.180 dumb foreigner overview. 0.99

00:29:08.600 Is that roughly true? 0.99

00:29:09.480 Yeah.

00:29:10.140 So just,

00:29:11.340 can I tell you a story

00:29:13.660 from our history?

00:29:14.080 I hope you will.

00:29:14.780 Yes,

00:29:15.540 it's,

00:29:16.140 some people call it

00:29:16.920 the origin story

00:29:17.780 of the Afrikaner people

00:29:18.860 and it explains a lot

00:29:20.380 about who we are today.

00:29:22.920 So we were settled

00:29:23.860 in the Cape,

00:29:24.660 the Proto-Afrikaners 0.90

00:29:25.920 who were still the Dutch,

00:29:27.280 the French,

00:29:27.660 and the Germans.

00:29:28.560 We were then colonized

00:29:29.900 the Cape in,

00:29:30.800 I think,

00:29:31.020 1810 by the British.

00:29:32.320 It was during

00:29:32.720 the Napoleonic Wars.

00:29:34.100 When did the

00:29:35.080 Afrikaners

00:29:35.660 for the Boers

00:29:36.160 first get there?

00:29:38.380 1652.

00:29:40.100 1652.

00:29:40.500 Yeah,

00:29:40.540 that's what's

00:29:41.040 150 years

00:29:41.780 before the

00:29:42.220 Declaration of Independence

00:29:43.280 or something.

00:29:43.980 Wow.

00:29:44.260 Something like that.

00:29:45.460 Yeah.

00:29:45.760 So a long time ago.

00:29:46.860 Yeah,

00:29:47.020 so my great,

00:29:48.240 great,

00:29:48.460 great grandfather,

00:29:49.980 Nikolaus Rutz,

00:29:51.000 who was the first Rutz 0.99

00:29:52.160 who came to South Africa,

00:29:54.420 came more or less

00:29:56.880 the time

00:29:57.260 when George Washington

00:29:58.260 was a teenager.

00:29:59.500 So he was eight years

00:30:00.320 older than George Washington.

00:30:01.360 So my family

00:30:02.480 has been in Africa

00:30:03.280 since,

00:30:04.640 you could say,

00:30:05.200 since George Washington,

00:30:06.540 since the time

00:30:07.340 of George Washington.

00:30:08.340 Since before the United States

00:30:09.080 was a country.

00:30:09.660 Yeah,

00:30:10.020 yeah,

00:30:10.220 yeah,

00:30:10.440 absolutely.

00:30:11.680 So the Cape was...

00:30:12.720 Do you have another passport?

00:30:14.080 No.

00:30:15.120 No,

00:30:15.420 no.

00:30:15.740 I don't,

00:30:16.140 and I don't really want one.

00:30:18.000 Right.

00:30:18.280 And do most Afrikaners 1.00

00:30:19.760 have other passports?

00:30:20.960 No,

00:30:21.620 most don't.

00:30:22.640 Yeah.

00:30:22.740 But this goes to the story

00:30:24.520 I want to tell you.

00:30:25.080 So we were colonized

00:30:26.740 by the British

00:30:27.400 and you can call them

00:30:29.700 the proto-Afrikaners 0.80

00:30:30.880 then said,

00:30:31.660 you know,

00:30:31.900 we don't want to be governed

00:30:32.760 by anyone else.

00:30:33.500 We want to govern ourselves.

00:30:34.940 And so they opted

00:30:35.700 to move into the interior

00:30:37.220 of South Africa,

00:30:38.180 which was called

00:30:39.140 the Great Track.

00:30:39.960 And they didn't know

00:30:40.680 what they would expect.

00:30:41.580 They said they reject slavery.

00:30:43.000 They want to foster

00:30:44.200 good relations

00:30:44.840 with local tribes,

00:30:45.880 which they did.

00:30:46.820 There were many treaties signed

00:30:48.160 and agreements

00:30:48.700 and so forth.

00:30:50.220 And they did not hold slaves.

00:30:51.380 There was slavery

00:30:53.020 in the Cape Colony

00:30:53.860 before that,

00:30:55.460 but when the Great Track,

00:30:56.740 that was around the time

00:30:57.680 of the abolition of slavery

00:30:58.960 and they also rejected slavery.

00:31:00.700 They explicitly said so.

00:31:03.180 So they then went

00:31:04.140 into the interior

00:31:04.800 and the leader

00:31:05.440 of the Great Track

00:31:06.160 was a guy called

00:31:07.020 Pitratif.

00:31:08.040 Yes.

00:31:08.380 Who went to negotiate

00:31:10.320 with the Zulu king,

00:31:11.340 Dangan.

00:31:12.180 And so he said,

00:31:13.040 what can we do

00:31:13.740 to buy land from you

00:31:14.860 for our people to live?

00:31:16.640 The agreement was

00:31:17.480 they had to return cattle

00:31:18.880 that was stolen

00:31:19.540 by another tribe

00:31:20.500 with a king called Sikonjela.

00:31:22.800 So they went,

00:31:23.400 they retrieved the cattle,

00:31:24.380 they brought it

00:31:24.860 to the Zulu king.

00:31:25.800 The Zulu king Dangan,

00:31:27.180 King Dangan,

00:31:27.740 said to them that

00:31:28.540 we have to celebrate.

00:31:30.160 So leave your weapons

00:31:30.960 outside the lager,

00:31:32.220 come inside

00:31:32.800 and we'll have a celebration.

00:31:34.620 During the celebration,

00:31:35.820 at one stage,

00:31:36.700 he chanted

00:31:37.640 Bulalani Abatakati,

00:31:39.380 which means 1.00

00:31:39.820 kill the wizards. 1.00

00:31:41.320 So they took 0.99

00:31:41.960 Retif and his commando,

00:31:43.460 his group,

00:31:44.240 to a nearby hill

00:31:45.100 and they slaughtered him.

00:31:46.880 They had,

00:31:47.260 they slaughtered him last

00:31:48.240 because they wanted him

00:31:49.240 to see,

00:31:50.160 they wanted to make sure

00:31:51.040 that he sees his people 0.95

00:31:52.460 and his son murdered.

00:31:54.880 A few months later,

00:31:56.480 before,

00:31:57.420 so after that,

00:31:58.480 they went on

00:31:58.920 an extermination mission. 0.98

00:32:00.020 They killed women 1.00

00:32:00.660 and children

00:32:01.040 in the lagers

00:32:01.560 and so forth.

00:32:02.660 A few months later,

00:32:03.180 A lager is a group

00:32:04.340 of wagons pulled

00:32:05.120 into a circle.

00:32:05.620 Yes, correct.

00:32:06.160 Yes.

00:32:06.760 And so a few months later,

00:32:08.060 his body was found

00:32:09.040 with the treaty

00:32:09.780 on which the Zulu king

00:32:11.560 signed,

00:32:12.060 giving them some land.

00:32:14.640 So they then started a,

00:32:16.720 initiated a punishment commando,

00:32:19.420 a group of three to four hundred men

00:32:21.160 to,

00:32:22.420 to counterattack the Zulus, 1.00

00:32:24.900 which eventually led

00:32:26.220 to the Battle of Blood River,

00:32:27.980 one of the most significant battles

00:32:29.600 in our history,

00:32:30.760 where they found themselves

00:32:32.380 completely surrounded.

00:32:34.040 They were about,

00:32:34.720 let's say,

00:32:35.080 400.

00:32:35.800 Before the boars.

00:32:36.940 Yes.

00:32:37.980 Surrounded by 12,000 Zulus. 1.00

00:32:40.420 And so they had this wagon

00:32:41.560 and my great-great-great-great-grandfather

00:32:44.380 was in that lager

00:32:45.760 and he was the religious leader.

00:32:47.260 His name is Saral Salia.

00:32:48.980 So Saral Salia's...

00:32:50.000 And what was their religion?

00:32:51.440 Christian.

00:32:52.180 Dutch Reformed?

00:32:52.780 Dutch Reformed, yes.

00:32:53.600 So he said to them,

00:32:54.700 listen,

00:32:55.540 we need to make a vow to God.

00:32:57.460 And so he wrote a vow,

00:32:58.820 which they all made.

00:33:00.720 And the vow said that

00:33:02.240 we're standing here

00:33:03.440 in front of the God

00:33:04.260 in heaven and earth

00:33:04.980 to make a vow to him

00:33:07.120 that if he protects us

00:33:08.420 in the battle that lies ahead,

00:33:09.880 we will commemorate this day

00:33:11.820 in the years to come

00:33:13.540 as a day of thanksgiving

00:33:15.620 and a Sabbath.

00:33:16.640 And we will also tell

00:33:17.820 our children the story

00:33:18.800 and we will build a church

00:33:19.800 and we will make sure

00:33:20.640 that the honor of the victory

00:33:22.300 goes to God

00:33:23.340 and not to us.

00:33:24.880 So they made this vow

00:33:25.940 and the battle took place

00:33:27.680 and the result was that

00:33:29.160 not one of the Afrikaners 1.00

00:33:31.440 were killed.

00:33:32.500 3,000 Zulus died

00:33:33.880 in that battle.

00:33:34.980 Not one was killed?

00:33:36.120 Yes.

00:33:36.900 Yeah.

00:33:37.080 And so the reason

00:33:39.900 why I'm telling this story

00:33:41.020 is not because,

00:33:41.980 not to point to the Zulu people,

00:33:43.340 we have good relations

00:33:44.060 with the Zulu

00:33:44.560 and we've worked with them.

00:33:45.620 This was, of course,

00:33:46.180 the one major battle,

00:33:47.140 but we've had good relations

00:33:48.160 with them over the years.

00:33:49.460 But it just,

00:33:50.280 it says something about,

00:33:51.880 firstly,

00:33:52.180 why the Afrikaner people 1.00

00:33:53.400 are so patriotic.

00:33:54.960 It says something about

00:33:55.900 why we are so attached

00:33:57.140 to African soil

00:33:58.220 and why we are still religious.

00:34:00.320 We're a very religious community.

00:34:01.720 We have some problems

00:34:02.600 in terms of belief

00:34:03.960 and so forth.

00:34:04.580 But broadly speaking,

00:34:05.340 the Afrikaners are, 0.92

00:34:06.660 compared to Europe

00:34:07.440 and compared to some parts

00:34:09.040 of America,

00:34:09.760 still a very religious people.

00:34:12.080 And it also says something

00:34:13.200 about why we are so attached

00:34:14.920 to the country

00:34:15.500 and why we don't want to leave.

00:34:16.860 We want to stay there

00:34:17.980 because our ancestors

00:34:18.860 have been there

00:34:19.420 for hundreds of years

00:34:20.160 and we fought and died

00:34:21.940 for our space there

00:34:23.360 and we've gotten used to it

00:34:24.480 to a certain extent.

00:34:25.780 What's the only country

00:34:26.540 that you have, isn't it?

00:34:27.760 Exactly.

00:34:28.260 We don't have any other country.

00:34:29.400 We can't go back to England.

00:34:32.800 We're not Dutch anymore.

00:34:33.820 We, you know,

00:34:35.660 there's this slogan

00:34:36.800 in South Africa

00:34:37.280 that says go back to Holland.

00:34:39.000 But, I mean,

00:34:39.700 I've been to Holland.

00:34:40.400 I've been to Amsterdam.

00:34:41.260 It's a beautiful city,

00:34:42.560 but I don't feel

00:34:44.420 like I'm at home

00:34:45.500 when I go there.

00:34:46.260 It's a beautiful foreign city

00:34:47.580 that I'm attending.

00:34:48.260 We became a people

00:34:49.340 in Africa,

00:34:50.460 which is why

00:34:51.400 we are called the Afrikaners.

00:34:52.720 We named ourselves

00:34:53.520 after the continent

00:34:54.300 and our language,

00:34:55.420 Afrikaans,

00:34:56.080 is named after the continent.

00:34:57.240 But you're being called invaders

00:34:58.460 by people whose ancestors

00:34:59.480 were also invaders.

00:35:01.120 Yeah, well,

00:35:01.620 who came from the north of Africa.

00:35:03.060 Yes, from where Cameroon is

00:35:05.340 and so forth.

00:35:05.960 Who came down

00:35:06.520 firstly towards the east of Africa

00:35:08.440 and then along the Great Lakes

00:35:10.240 eventually ending in South Africa.

00:35:12.720 Yes.

00:35:15.680 I think it's what you said

00:35:17.500 is really important

00:35:18.160 because I think

00:35:18.800 from the American

00:35:20.040 or the Western perspective,

00:35:21.520 there's this idea

00:35:22.240 that the Afrikaners,

00:35:25.020 the Boers, 0.98

00:35:25.660 are worse. 1.00

00:35:26.520 They're the worst whites there. 1.00

00:35:27.920 Worse than the English. 1.00

00:35:28.600 English.

00:35:29.280 Yes.

00:35:30.660 English,

00:35:31.140 you, by the way,

00:35:31.680 created the concentration camp

00:35:33.300 during the Boer War.

00:35:34.000 Yes.

00:35:34.620 Yep, that's true.

00:35:35.840 Winston Churchill was there

00:35:36.700 and kind of behaved

00:35:40.300 pretty dishonorably,

00:35:41.200 I would say,

00:35:41.580 on many, many levels

00:35:42.440 for hundreds of years

00:35:43.680 in South Africa,

00:35:44.140 but that's just my opinion.

00:35:45.320 Yep.

00:35:45.620 But the Boers 1.00

00:35:46.500 are somehow the worst 0.98

00:35:47.600 and that they have

00:35:49.500 no right to be there.

00:35:51.300 And I think history

00:35:52.240 suggests something different.

00:35:53.980 Well, absolutely.

00:35:55.240 So on my mother's side,

00:35:56.500 I descend from the British,

00:35:57.660 my great-grandfather

00:35:58.940 fought in the First World War

00:36:00.620 for the British.

00:36:02.260 And so in many ways,

00:36:04.060 culturally,

00:36:04.580 we've become very close

00:36:05.640 to the British

00:36:06.200 because of the influence

00:36:07.240 over the years.

00:36:08.320 And I don't think

00:36:09.100 there's friction today

00:36:10.080 between the Afrikaners 0.99

00:36:11.180 and the British,

00:36:12.280 but it certainly is the case.

00:36:13.440 I mean,

00:36:13.560 the concentration camps

00:36:14.580 were horrible.

00:36:15.940 I recently read

00:36:17.080 the Gulag Archipelago

00:36:18.300 and Solzhenitsyn

00:36:19.060 writes in there

00:36:19.700 that the first concentration camps

00:36:21.420 were invented

00:36:22.580 by the Soviets,

00:36:23.400 but that's actually wrong.

00:36:24.520 The first concentration camps 0.85

00:36:26.120 that we know of,

00:36:27.280 at least this type

00:36:28.420 of concentration camps

00:36:29.380 were during the first,

00:36:30.440 during the Anglo-Boer War

00:36:31.420 where about 30,000

00:36:32.520 women and children died.

00:36:34.920 But there was a lot of,

00:36:35.760 the great thing

00:36:36.760 about the Anglo-Boer War

00:36:37.920 was that it was

00:36:38.820 in many ways

00:36:39.420 a first for the world.

00:36:41.460 It was,

00:36:41.820 some people call it

00:36:42.420 the first international

00:36:43.600 propaganda war

00:36:44.500 because it was in a time

00:36:45.440 when newspapers

00:36:46.100 became popular.

00:36:47.280 So there was this

00:36:47.860 propaganda war

00:36:48.860 in Europe

00:36:50.220 with regard to the Boers

00:36:51.680 or the Boer War

00:36:53.580 with a lot of people

00:36:54.320 saying the Boers 0.99

00:36:54.960 are Boerish. 0.96

00:36:56.160 That's where the word

00:36:56.980 comes from.

00:36:58.460 Evidently,

00:36:58.940 if someone told me

00:36:59.540 that's where the word

00:37:00.060 Boerish comes from,

00:37:01.000 it's to be sort of,

00:37:02.140 you know,

00:37:02.960 very old style

00:37:04.240 and, you know,

00:37:05.200 not very sophisticated.

00:37:06.640 Rough, yeah.

00:37:06.920 Yeah, rough around the edges.

00:37:08.640 And so there was

00:37:09.120 a lot of propaganda

00:37:09.880 like the Boers 1.00

00:37:10.520 being compared

00:37:11.220 to wild hogs

00:37:13.060 and things like that.

00:37:15.120 But that's okay.

00:37:16.560 The word Boer

00:37:17.520 was actually used

00:37:18.440 for a long time

00:37:19.240 as an insult,

00:37:20.260 almost like Jew, 0.92

00:37:20.940 like calling someone a Jew.

00:37:22.120 It's like, 0.75

00:37:22.460 oh, you're a Boer, 1.00

00:37:23.140 a typical Boer. 1.00

00:37:24.140 But I mean,

00:37:24.620 we're very proud

00:37:25.200 of that word.

00:37:26.020 It's something

00:37:26.840 that we take pride in.

00:37:29.360 It's in many ways

00:37:30.320 there's some debate

00:37:31.000 about the difference

00:37:31.660 between Boer and Africana,

00:37:33.060 but it's broadly speaking

00:37:34.200 synonymous.

00:37:35.720 But I mean,

00:37:36.280 we're very proud

00:37:36.880 of our history

00:37:37.420 in South Africa

00:37:37.900 and we've become

00:37:38.540 a very sophisticated

00:37:39.480 community

00:37:40.500 with an immense

00:37:42.200 treasure chest

00:37:43.100 of literature,

00:37:44.140 of poetry,

00:37:44.900 of philosophy,

00:37:45.900 all of it

00:37:46.280 in our own language

00:37:47.140 that we did

00:37:47.740 over the last,

00:37:48.440 especially the last

00:37:49.120 hundred years,

00:37:50.280 which of course

00:37:50.800 is under threat now.

00:37:52.300 Your language

00:37:52.580 is not spoken

00:37:53.060 by anyone else

00:37:53.660 in the world?

00:37:54.620 No,

00:37:55.060 it descends from Dutch.

00:37:57.280 Yes.

00:37:57.860 And so,

00:37:58.980 if you spend some time

00:38:00.620 as an Afrikaans person

00:38:01.900 with some Dutch friends,

00:38:03.500 eventually you start

00:38:04.660 to follow,

00:38:05.700 but it's not Dutch anymore.

00:38:07.540 There's been influences

00:38:08.760 by other languages

00:38:09.600 and so forth.

00:38:10.960 So,

00:38:11.020 there are people

00:38:12.820 who speak it

00:38:13.320 all over the world,

00:38:14.200 but that's only

00:38:14.960 because people

00:38:15.500 who have left

00:38:16.080 from,

00:38:16.720 so many people

00:38:17.300 have left

00:38:17.620 from South Africa.

00:38:18.160 Some estimates

00:38:18.780 say it's about

00:38:19.340 a million people,

00:38:20.480 white people

00:38:20.920 who have left

00:38:21.520 South Africa

00:38:22.080 over the last

00:38:22.560 few decades.

00:38:23.560 How many are left?

00:38:25.120 How many whites 0.80

00:38:25.940 overall in South Africa

00:38:27.020 and how many

00:38:27.540 of them are Afrikaans?

00:38:28.360 So,

00:38:28.800 it's more or less

00:38:29.920 about 5 million

00:38:30.820 who are left.

00:38:31.940 The Afrikaner community

00:38:32.820 is about 2.7 million

00:38:34.140 and the total population

00:38:35.740 is about 60,

00:38:36.600 just over 60 million.

00:38:39.340 And now,

00:38:40.680 it looks like

00:38:42.180 you're,

00:38:42.580 as you said,

00:38:43.220 entering some kind

00:38:44.100 of final stage

00:38:45.020 where they'll be,

00:38:46.840 I mean,

00:38:47.020 they've been expelled

00:38:47.800 from a bunch

00:38:48.300 of different

00:38:48.580 African countries,

00:38:49.260 as you know.

00:38:51.380 But,

00:38:51.900 it sounds like

00:38:52.740 the plan

00:38:53.820 is to force 0.70

00:38:54.820 them to leave 1.00

00:38:55.400 or kill them 1.00

00:38:56.040 or what is 1.00

00:38:56.400 the plan exactly?

00:38:57.500 So,

00:38:57.700 Jan Smuts,

00:38:59.440 the famous

00:39:00.220 Boer General

00:39:00.700 who worked

00:39:01.760 with Churchill

00:39:02.260 also famously

00:39:03.200 said that

00:39:03.700 South Africa

00:39:04.100 is a country

00:39:04.620 where the best

00:39:05.200 never happens

00:39:05.780 and the worst

00:39:06.280 never happens.

00:39:07.600 And so,

00:39:08.220 we sort of

00:39:08.760 believe that

00:39:09.340 and we hope

00:39:09.860 that the worst

00:39:10.440 outcome

00:39:10.800 is an unrealistic

00:39:11.920 outcome.

00:39:12.980 We do know

00:39:13.640 that the most

00:39:14.120 important thing

00:39:14.700 that we need

00:39:15.220 to do now

00:39:15.840 is to be

00:39:16.340 very well

00:39:17.080 organized

00:39:17.580 in terms

00:39:18.120 of our own

00:39:18.540 communities,

00:39:19.340 to be

00:39:20.220 very well

00:39:20.920 connected

00:39:21.360 to each

00:39:21.800 other.

00:39:23.260 You know,

00:39:23.560 there's this

00:39:23.860 whole debate

00:39:24.280 about the

00:39:24.660 individual

00:39:25.060 and the

00:39:25.420 community

00:39:25.840 in philosophy

00:39:26.540 and we've

00:39:27.320 realized

00:39:27.760 that if

00:39:28.220 you're just

00:39:28.580 an individual,

00:39:29.320 you are

00:39:29.580 completely

00:39:29.940 helpless.

00:39:30.500 If you're

00:39:30.860 not part

00:39:31.180 of a

00:39:31.380 community,

00:39:32.340 if you're

00:39:33.520 not given

00:39:33.880 meaning by

00:39:34.520 the community

00:39:35.140 of which

00:39:35.580 you are a

00:39:35.920 member,

00:39:36.820 you're

00:39:38.060 completely

00:39:38.380 helpless

00:39:38.680 against

00:39:39.040 the Leviathan

00:39:40.200 state.

00:39:41.500 So,

00:39:41.660 we need

00:39:42.020 to be

00:39:42.240 well organized,

00:39:43.080 we need

00:39:43.340 to be armed,

00:39:43.880 we need

00:39:44.580 to have

00:39:45.200 well-functioning

00:39:46.480 communities

00:39:47.740 who look

00:39:48.080 after each

00:39:48.560 after,

00:39:48.940 look after

00:39:49.300 the poor,

00:39:49.860 do all the

00:39:50.220 things that

00:39:50.560 the government

00:39:50.960 is supposed

00:39:51.340 to be doing,

00:39:51.940 but also

00:39:52.440 look after

00:39:52.900 our safety.

00:39:53.540 So,

00:39:53.720 we drive

00:39:54.040 patrols at

00:39:54.720 night,

00:39:55.100 we're

00:39:55.240 involved with

00:39:55.940 tens of

00:39:57.200 thousands of

00:39:57.660 volunteers

00:39:58.040 involved with

00:39:58.640 patrols,

00:39:59.240 looking after

00:39:59.740 our own

00:40:00.140 safety,

00:40:00.960 and so forth.

00:40:01.680 But I

00:40:02.140 think the

00:40:02.460 bigger

00:40:02.920 question here

00:40:04.020 is the

00:40:04.540 future of

00:40:05.020 South

00:40:05.180 Africa.

00:40:06.180 And this

00:40:06.600 is a

00:40:06.800 controversial

00:40:07.080 thing to

00:40:07.660 say,

00:40:08.060 but it's

00:40:08.880 so obvious

00:40:09.760 that it's

00:40:10.280 not sustainable,

00:40:11.400 it's not

00:40:12.060 going to

00:40:12.560 work,

00:40:13.200 and it's

00:40:13.620 just getting

00:40:14.180 worse.

00:40:15.000 So,

00:40:15.400 the only

00:40:16.040 possible

00:40:16.500 solution

00:40:16.980 is not

00:40:17.580 simply to

00:40:18.140 say we

00:40:18.500 need a

00:40:18.920 different

00:40:19.260 party in

00:40:20.060 power,

00:40:20.420 because the

00:40:20.940 underlying

00:40:21.300 foundations

00:40:21.940 is still

00:40:22.560 problematic.

00:40:24.120 The only

00:40:24.560 possible solution

00:40:25.380 is to move

00:40:26.380 toward a

00:40:26.900 system with

00:40:27.440 subsidiary

00:40:28.160 authorities,

00:40:29.380 which could

00:40:29.880 imply something

00:40:30.700 like a

00:40:31.140 republic for

00:40:31.840 the Afrikaner

00:40:32.440 people,

00:40:32.800 it could

00:40:33.040 imply a

00:40:33.460 kingdom for

00:40:34.000 the Zulu

00:40:34.320 people,

00:40:35.060 it could

00:40:35.400 imply different

00:40:36.040 types of

00:40:37.000 authority,

00:40:37.740 depending on

00:40:38.240 the community.

00:40:39.780 But South

00:40:40.500 Africa is a 1.00

00:40:41.020 country made

00:40:41.640 up of a

00:40:42.200 long list of

00:40:42.840 minorities.

00:40:43.760 Unless,

00:40:44.440 if you look at

00:40:44.800 it from a

00:40:45.220 racial perspective,

00:40:46.020 you can say

00:40:46.480 there's a

00:40:46.740 black majority,

00:40:48.820 but the

00:40:49.120 black majority

00:40:49.720 also consists

00:40:51.080 of a variety,

00:40:51.860 as you mentioned,

00:40:52.360 a variety of

00:40:52.920 nations and

00:40:53.520 tribes and so

00:40:54.160 forth.

00:40:54.440 Plus,

00:40:54.940 massive

00:40:55.620 immigration into

00:40:56.620 your country.

00:40:57.160 Yeah,

00:40:57.360 it's a very

00:40:58.680 serious problem.

00:40:59.440 Yeah,

00:40:59.600 we virtually

00:41:00.220 don't have

00:41:00.660 borders in

00:41:01.200 South Africa.

00:41:01.880 Right.

00:41:02.340 A problem,

00:41:03.280 of course,

00:41:03.560 for the

00:41:03.720 country,

00:41:04.000 but also a

00:41:04.600 demographic

00:41:04.940 fact that

00:41:06.520 it's not as

00:41:07.040 if there's

00:41:07.620 this monolithic

00:41:08.560 black majority.

00:41:10.080 There are all

00:41:10.540 kinds of

00:41:10.880 different components

00:41:11.580 of the black 0.68

00:41:12.280 majority,

00:41:12.780 right?

00:41:13.100 Yes.

00:41:13.280 They don't

00:41:13.420 necessarily get

00:41:13.920 along.

00:41:14.860 Yeah,

00:41:15.080 yeah.

00:41:15.340 But a lot

00:41:15.720 of Zimbabweans

00:41:16.400 murdered in

00:41:17.280 South Africa. 0.93

00:41:18.640 Xenophobic

00:41:19.040 violence.

00:41:19.620 Every now and

00:41:20.040 then there's

00:41:20.420 this upsurge

00:41:21.220 in violence

00:41:21.860 against foreigners. 0.97

00:41:23.340 So they get

00:41:23.700 accused.

00:41:24.060 What typically

00:41:24.460 happens is people

00:41:25.360 come in from

00:41:25.840 the north of

00:41:27.420 South Africa,

00:41:28.200 like Malawi,

00:41:28.880 Zimbabwe,

00:41:29.260 and so forth,

00:41:29.860 Zambia and

00:41:30.380 so forth.

00:41:31.120 And then they

00:41:31.620 work and they

00:41:32.220 accept jobs

00:41:32.940 for lower

00:41:33.760 wages.

00:41:34.700 And a lot of

00:41:35.720 them work

00:41:36.040 really hard.

00:41:36.900 So that leads

00:41:37.760 to friction

00:41:38.180 because there's

00:41:38.740 very high

00:41:39.220 unemployment in

00:41:39.980 South Africa

00:41:40.340 already.

00:41:41.320 And so it

00:41:41.680 leads to

00:41:41.980 friction

00:41:42.340 among the

00:41:44.400 local

00:41:44.700 communities.

00:41:45.760 And then

00:41:46.100 every now and

00:41:46.540 then we have

00:41:46.920 this upsurge

00:41:47.660 in very,

00:41:48.960 very brutal

00:41:49.540 xenophobic

00:41:50.340 violence.

00:41:51.200 So yes,

00:41:51.600 the border

00:41:52.000 is virtually

00:41:53.420 non-existent,

00:41:54.240 the border to

00:41:54.720 the north of

00:41:55.180 South Africa.

00:41:55.600 If you've

00:41:56.160 been paying

00:41:56.460 attention,

00:41:57.040 you know

00:41:57.220 that Alp

00:41:57.920 is not

00:41:58.620 just another

00:41:59.000 nicotine

00:41:59.680 pouch.

00:42:00.200 It is

00:42:00.620 literally

00:42:01.300 the best

00:42:02.140 nicotine

00:42:02.700 pouch

00:42:03.080 in the

00:42:04.020 world.

00:42:05.000 And we

00:42:05.520 know

00:42:05.680 because we

00:42:06.240 use it

00:42:06.700 all day

00:42:07.380 long.

00:42:07.740 We've

00:42:07.900 used all

00:42:08.380 of them.

00:42:08.780 Turns out

00:42:09.040 you can

00:42:09.240 actually

00:42:09.420 make

00:42:09.640 money

00:42:09.820 by telling

00:42:10.160 people

00:42:10.400 about

00:42:10.600 Alp.

00:42:11.100 We're

00:42:11.320 launching

00:42:11.600 our

00:42:11.780 affiliate

00:42:12.160 program.

00:42:13.200 If you

00:42:13.380 have an

00:42:13.600 audience,

00:42:14.040 big or

00:42:14.240 small,

00:42:14.520 you can

00:42:14.740 cash in.

00:42:15.280 You earn

00:42:15.400 10%

00:42:16.080 commission

00:42:16.500 on every

00:42:16.980 sale of

00:42:17.560 Alp

00:42:17.760 that you

00:42:18.000 bring in.

00:42:18.920 And to

00:42:19.080 make it

00:42:19.300 even

00:42:19.480 easier,

00:42:19.900 we'll

00:42:20.020 give you

00:42:20.260 a 10%

00:42:20.960 off link

00:42:21.640 for your

00:42:22.000 followers.

00:42:23.060 They save

00:42:23.620 you earn.

00:42:24.040 It's really

00:42:24.320 simple.

00:42:24.740 By the way,

00:42:25.180 compared to

00:42:25.500 all the

00:42:25.660 other products

00:42:26.080 people sell

00:42:26.480 online,

00:42:27.100 Alp is

00:42:27.460 truly good.

00:42:29.340 It's

00:42:29.580 delicious.

00:42:30.640 It is

00:42:30.980 easy to

00:42:31.700 sell because

00:42:32.120 it's

00:42:32.340 heartfelt.

00:42:32.900 So spread

00:42:33.240 the word,

00:42:33.600 get rewarded

00:42:34.080 for it.

00:42:34.620 You can

00:42:34.840 sign up

00:42:35.180 at

00:42:35.340 alppouch.com.

00:42:36.540 It's

00:42:36.780 alppouch.com.

00:42:38.720 A-L-P-P-O-U-C-H 1.00

00:42:40.160 dot com.

00:42:41.140 Best

00:42:41.460 nicotine

00:42:41.860 pouch

00:42:42.200 in the

00:42:42.840 world.

00:42:43.020 Don

00:42:46.760 Jr.

00:42:47.120 here,

00:42:47.400 guys.

00:42:47.820 Are you

00:42:48.040 receiving

00:42:48.440 letters from

00:42:48.940 the IRS

00:42:49.440 claiming you

00:42:50.040 owe back

00:42:50.400 taxes?

00:42:51.100 As penalties

00:42:51.640 and interest

00:42:52.280 fees pile up,

00:42:53.020 the IRS

00:42:53.460 gives you

00:42:53.860 no clear

00:42:54.600 path to

00:42:55.140 resolution.

00:42:55.800 Don't speak

00:42:56.260 to them

00:42:56.520 on your

00:42:56.780 own.

00:42:57.300 They are

00:42:57.620 not your

00:42:57.960 friends.

00:42:58.460 To reach

00:42:58.880 a team

00:42:59.400 of licensed

00:43:00.120 tax

00:43:00.540 professionals

00:43:01.020 that can

00:43:01.360 help you

00:43:01.780 reduce,

00:43:02.520 settle,

00:43:02.960 and resolve

00:43:03.440 your tax

00:43:04.000 matters,

00:43:04.460 go to

00:43:04.840 TNUSA.com

00:43:07.100 and check

00:43:07.560 them out.

00:43:07.960 Solve your

00:43:08.280 tax problems

00:43:08.840 today.

00:43:09.360 Call 1-800-780-88888

00:43:11.580 or visit

00:43:12.100 TNUSA.com.

00:43:13.540 That's

00:43:13.800 1-800-780-8888.

00:43:19.120 Big changes

00:43:20.240 are coming

00:43:20.820 for America.

00:43:22.320 Tariffs

00:43:22.640 on imported

00:43:23.360 beef could

00:43:24.080 mean higher

00:43:24.680 prices,

00:43:25.720 supply chain

00:43:26.440 issues,

00:43:27.280 and even

00:43:28.020 more uncertainty

00:43:29.000 about where

00:43:29.560 your food

00:43:30.040 comes from.

00:43:31.480 But here's

00:43:32.260 the good

00:43:32.660 news.

00:43:33.460 You don't

00:43:33.800 have to

00:43:34.120 rely on

00:43:34.720 imports.

00:43:36.040 At Good

00:43:36.500 Ranchers,

00:43:37.380 we're proud

00:43:38.300 to provide

00:43:38.980 100%

00:43:40.200 American meat,

00:43:41.640 no import,

00:43:42.100 no tariffs,

00:43:44.160 no surprises.

00:43:45.740 Just high

00:43:46.400 quality,

00:43:47.220 locally

00:43:47.540 sourced

00:43:48.040 beef,

00:43:49.040 chicken,

00:43:49.720 pork,

00:43:50.380 and seafood

00:43:50.840 delivered right

00:43:51.600 to your door.

00:43:53.160 Right now,

00:43:54.880 use code

00:43:55.880 Tucker to

00:43:56.780 get $25

00:43:57.980 off plus a

00:43:59.300 free cut

00:43:59.780 of meat

00:44:00.140 for a year.

00:44:01.640 That's real

00:44:02.540 savings at a

00:44:03.360 time when

00:44:03.980 prices are

00:44:04.560 only going

00:44:05.120 up.

00:44:06.100 Don't wait.

00:44:07.300 Secure your

00:44:07.920 food supply

00:44:08.660 and support

00:44:09.420 American farmers

00:44:10.340 today at

00:44:11.060 goodranchers.com.

00:44:13.320 American meat

00:44:14.200 delivered.

00:44:17.020 So what would

00:44:18.020 it look like

00:44:18.760 to have

00:44:19.440 autonomous

00:44:20.020 republics,

00:44:21.500 and is

00:44:21.980 that allowed

00:44:22.520 under your

00:44:23.140 94 constitution?

00:44:24.400 I thought

00:44:24.660 there was

00:44:25.180 some

00:44:25.820 provision for

00:44:27.020 that.

00:44:27.300 Well,

00:44:27.860 it's interesting

00:44:28.360 that you

00:44:28.700 know this.

00:44:29.180 Yes.

00:44:29.640 So there's

00:44:30.000 a section

00:44:30.360 in the

00:44:31.360 South African

00:44:31.720 constitution,

00:44:32.440 section 235,

00:44:33.960 that provides

00:44:34.660 for self-determination

00:44:35.840 for communities.

00:44:37.460 Now,

00:44:37.640 there's some

00:44:38.000 ambiguity in

00:44:38.900 terms of how

00:44:39.320 to interpret

00:44:39.900 that section,

00:44:41.080 but there's

00:44:42.280 some constitutional

00:44:42.980 provision for

00:44:43.660 that.

00:44:43.920 And so

00:44:44.960 during the

00:44:45.420 90s,

00:44:46.200 the negotiations

00:44:47.280 for New South

00:44:47.840 Africa,

00:44:48.240 the more

00:44:48.640 conservative

00:44:49.080 groups who

00:44:49.780 were white

00:44:50.460 and black,

00:44:51.200 who were

00:44:51.640 arguing for

00:44:52.140 self-determination

00:44:53.000 were made

00:44:53.720 fun of by

00:44:55.340 the ruling

00:44:56.520 party at the

00:44:57.160 time,

00:44:57.420 the National

00:44:57.800 Party,

00:44:58.580 and the ANC,

00:44:59.340 of course,

00:44:59.760 and also some

00:45:00.540 Westerners.

00:45:01.240 This is just

00:45:01.760 backwards,

00:45:02.340 this idea of

00:45:02.980 governing yourself

00:45:03.880 is somehow an

00:45:04.640 old ancient

00:45:05.340 thing that we

00:45:06.160 should move

00:45:06.740 away from.

00:45:08.120 And part of

00:45:08.940 the problem,

00:45:09.400 part of the

00:45:09.700 reason why they

00:45:10.200 were made fun

00:45:10.740 of is the

00:45:11.140 question is,

00:45:11.740 how do you do

00:45:12.420 that practically?

00:45:13.120 And the only

00:45:14.320 way to

00:45:14.680 practically do

00:45:15.380 that is to

00:45:15.980 have areas

00:45:16.700 where people

00:45:17.180 live concentrated,

00:45:18.420 where people

00:45:19.200 form a de facto

00:45:20.620 majority.

00:45:22.300 And there are

00:45:22.720 such areas,

00:45:23.480 like, for

00:45:23.920 example, when

00:45:24.280 you talk about

00:45:24.700 the Zulus and

00:45:25.280 so forth,

00:45:26.160 the Afrikaner

00:45:26.760 people are

00:45:27.240 pretty much

00:45:27.720 dispersed,

00:45:28.360 although there

00:45:28.720 are some

00:45:29.060 areas where

00:45:29.660 we live

00:45:30.060 more concentrated.

00:45:31.900 But there's,

00:45:32.260 for example,

00:45:32.720 there are some

00:45:33.340 initiatives to

00:45:34.000 get Afrikaners 1.00

00:45:34.800 to move

00:45:35.160 closer together,

00:45:36.120 and I think

00:45:36.640 that's a solution

00:45:37.980 that we need

00:45:38.720 to really focus

00:45:39.400 on, is getting

00:45:39.940 the Afrikaners 0.70

00:45:40.520 to move

00:45:40.860 closer together.

00:45:41.240 So they're

00:45:41.280 clustered in

00:45:41.740 Pretoria,

00:45:42.320 is my

00:45:42.580 understanding?

00:45:43.180 The majority,

00:45:43.860 yes.

00:45:44.780 Pretoria and

00:45:45.400 then the

00:45:45.640 Western Cape,

00:45:47.320 and the

00:45:47.820 south of the

00:45:48.280 country,

00:45:48.800 and then there's

00:45:49.400 this Orania

00:45:49.960 initiative in

00:45:50.780 the Northern

00:45:51.120 Cape.

00:45:51.620 So tell us

00:45:52.120 about that.

00:45:52.940 What is

00:45:53.260 Orania?

00:45:54.080 So Orania 0.93

00:45:54.540 is a cultural

00:45:55.680 community.

00:45:56.620 It's an

00:45:56.780 Afrikaner

00:45:57.260 cultural

00:45:57.580 community.

00:45:58.580 It's fairly

00:45:59.220 small, it's

00:45:59.880 about 3,000

00:46:00.560 people, but

00:46:01.020 it's growing

00:46:01.520 rapidly.

00:46:02.380 It's growing

00:46:02.640 by about 12

00:46:03.420 to 15%

00:46:04.220 per year.

00:46:05.440 And the

00:46:05.740 idea is,

00:46:06.500 it's a

00:46:06.820 culture, it's

00:46:07.240 privately owned.

00:46:08.660 It's a

00:46:09.020 community where

00:46:09.860 the Afrikaner

00:46:10.580 culture can

00:46:11.280 survive and

00:46:12.160 flourish.

00:46:13.100 And it

00:46:13.600 has been

00:46:14.060 growing at

00:46:15.660 quite a

00:46:16.040 pace, even

00:46:16.720 though it's

00:46:17.080 from a

00:46:17.320 small base.

00:46:17.920 But the

00:46:18.140 idea is to

00:46:18.620 say this

00:46:18.960 is an

00:46:19.220 area, we

00:46:20.300 are the

00:46:20.840 majority, and

00:46:22.200 we make our

00:46:22.860 own decisions.

00:46:23.320 We make our

00:46:23.960 own laws, we

00:46:24.620 govern ourselves,

00:46:25.580 we make our

00:46:26.180 own decisions in

00:46:26.820 terms of what

00:46:27.280 happens with our

00:46:27.860 tax money, what

00:46:28.980 happens with our

00:46:30.160 streets, what

00:46:30.940 type of

00:46:31.280 monuments.

00:46:31.560 Do you murder

00:46:31.900 other people or

00:46:32.640 oppress other

00:46:33.120 people?

00:46:34.620 No.

00:46:35.980 Then why, maybe

00:46:37.140 you have an

00:46:37.420 answer to

00:46:37.780 this, a

00:46:39.580 neighborhood, a

00:46:40.240 community of

00:46:41.040 3,000 people,

00:46:42.880 which is tiny,

00:46:43.940 even by South

00:46:45.100 African standards,

00:46:46.160 has received

00:46:47.280 unrelenting

00:46:48.620 negative media

00:46:49.600 attention in the

00:46:50.340 West.

00:46:50.780 Why is that

00:46:52.700 such a moral

00:46:53.720 crime, such an

00:46:54.460 outrage to have a

00:46:55.300 community like

00:46:56.300 that?

00:46:56.440 Yeah, it's

00:46:57.060 bizarre the

00:46:57.820 extent to which

00:46:58.640 Urania has been 0.99

00:46:59.360 attacked, especially

00:47:00.460 in the international

00:47:01.300 media.

00:47:02.160 So I spoke with a

00:47:03.360 friend in Europe

00:47:04.200 recently who said

00:47:05.060 to me, I've only

00:47:06.160 read negative things

00:47:07.640 about Urania, but

00:47:08.520 that's why I like

00:47:09.260 it, because I

00:47:10.940 know who's

00:47:11.380 writing this.

00:47:11.860 A lot of us have

00:47:12.320 reached that

00:47:12.680 conclusion.

00:47:14.440 And so in South

00:47:15.680 Africa, there are 0.97

00:47:16.280 many traditional...

00:47:17.400 The lying is,

00:47:18.180 just can I just

00:47:18.640 pause and just say,

00:47:19.940 the lying is

00:47:20.540 unsustainable.

00:47:21.720 When, you know,

00:47:22.760 you open up the

00:47:24.080 New York Times and

00:47:24.720 it's a safe bet that

00:47:25.720 whatever they're

00:47:26.180 telling you is the

00:47:26.760 opposite of the

00:47:27.360 truth, then you've

00:47:28.120 reached a point where

00:47:28.780 it's like, why even

00:47:29.440 have media coverage

00:47:30.380 at that point?

00:47:31.240 You know what I

00:47:31.560 mean?

00:47:31.780 Yeah.

00:47:32.300 So in South

00:47:32.920 Africa, there are 0.97

00:47:33.420 many cultural

00:47:33.980 communities, like

00:47:34.760 Zulu communities,

00:47:35.620 different...

00:47:35.820 Let's say there are

00:47:36.420 many black cultural

00:47:37.260 communities, and

00:47:37.940 when they are

00:47:38.560 reported on by the

00:47:39.900 media, they would

00:47:40.380 say, this Zulu

00:47:42.740 cultural community

00:47:43.820 so-and-so, or this

00:47:45.380 Posa cultural 0.98

00:47:46.200 community is doing

00:47:46.900 this.

00:47:47.200 But when it's

00:47:47.740 Urania, they say

00:47:48.560 it's a whites-only

00:47:49.320 enclave.

00:47:50.160 That's the term they

00:47:51.180 use, even though it's

00:47:51.840 a cultural community.

00:47:53.440 So black communities 0.98

00:47:54.340 can have that.

00:47:55.060 What is that?

00:47:55.520 Why the hostility?

00:47:58.340 And that's true

00:47:58.920 globally, by the way.

00:48:00.000 There's no...

00:48:01.100 Any white-majority 0.82

00:48:02.120 country, there are

00:48:02.780 very few left.

00:48:05.960 Very few left.

00:48:07.160 But there's just

00:48:08.500 suspect because they

00:48:09.680 exist.

00:48:10.300 What is that?

00:48:11.240 I think it's

00:48:12.140 underpinned by

00:48:12.860 oikophobia, this 0.67

00:48:14.180 idea of just hating

00:48:15.180 your own people, and

00:48:16.760 wanting your own

00:48:17.780 people to...

00:48:18.440 It is strange.

00:48:19.280 I'm not mad at

00:48:20.300 China for being 1.00

00:48:21.700 99% Chinese, or 0.99

00:48:23.900 whatever.

00:48:25.240 I'm not mad at

00:48:26.720 Burundi for being 0.99

00:48:28.100 all black. 0.99

00:48:28.740 It just doesn't 0.92

00:48:29.220 never even enter

00:48:30.080 my mind.

00:48:30.840 What is that?

00:48:31.680 Why is that?

00:48:33.060 I mean, honestly, I

00:48:34.340 guess now we can ask

00:48:35.440 questions like this.

00:48:36.940 Do you have any

00:48:37.520 idea?

00:48:37.840 I honestly think it's

00:48:40.260 underpinned by an

00:48:42.300 enormous sense of

00:48:43.860 guilt within Western

00:48:45.960 society or the

00:48:46.740 Western world, not 0.76

00:48:48.060 knowing how to make

00:48:48.900 sense of the Second

00:48:49.720 World War, and

00:48:51.600 being influenced over

00:48:53.460 decades and centuries

00:48:54.720 by enlightened

00:48:55.660 philosophy that talks

00:48:57.860 about how you are the

00:48:59.080 problem and how, you

00:49:00.540 know, you should have a

00:49:01.660 sense of guilt for who

00:49:02.500 you are, and the idea

00:49:03.760 that community and

00:49:05.220 identity is a bad

00:49:06.340 thing, but it's not a

00:49:08.340 bad thing if it's

00:49:09.060 someone else.

00:49:10.280 Well, not only is it

00:49:10.920 not a bad thing, it's

00:49:11.820 required by law.

00:49:13.980 Community and

00:49:14.560 identity, I mean,

00:49:15.260 those are like the

00:49:15.900 buzzwords of the

00:49:16.700 moment, but those

00:49:19.080 are, I mean,

00:49:19.820 basically it's just

00:49:20.460 like everyone hates 0.98

00:49:21.260 whites, including a 0.98

00:49:22.180 lot of whites, and I

00:49:22.880 just don't understand 0.60

00:49:23.580 that.

00:49:24.340 I am white, but I'm

00:49:25.380 kind of agnostic on

00:49:27.400 the question.

00:49:28.660 I kind of like all

00:49:29.580 people.

00:49:30.000 I think they're all

00:49:30.420 created by God, but

00:49:31.500 we're required to

00:49:33.480 pretend this isn't

00:49:34.020 happening, but it is

00:49:34.660 happening.

00:49:35.640 Everybody hates the 0.99

00:49:36.300 whites and wants 1.00

00:49:37.120 them to die. 1.00

00:49:38.760 Where does that come 1.00

00:49:39.660 from?

00:49:39.800 I think it's

00:49:40.480 primarily a Western

00:49:41.520 thing.

00:49:42.340 But what's the root

00:49:43.660 of it?

00:49:44.820 I think it's the

00:49:45.320 weirdest thing I've

00:49:45.840 ever seen.

00:49:46.460 Yes.

00:49:46.860 By the way, if

00:49:47.460 everyone wanted 0.98

00:49:48.160 Malaysians to die or 1.00

00:49:49.520 something, I would 1.00

00:49:49.980 say, whoa, whoa,

00:49:50.840 whoa, whoa, whoa.

00:49:52.360 You know, whatever

00:49:53.120 Malaysia has done 1.00

00:49:54.120 through the years,

00:49:54.840 like you can't attack

00:49:56.640 people on the basis

00:49:57.420 of their Malaysian-ness. 0.91

00:49:58.600 That's just wrong.

00:49:59.340 I would say that,

00:50:00.060 and I would mean it

00:50:00.680 too.

00:50:01.420 Yes.

00:50:01.880 But it's considered a

00:50:02.720 crime to say that

00:50:03.320 about whites.

00:50:03.880 Like, where does

00:50:06.080 that come from?

00:50:06.800 I'm honestly baffled.

00:50:08.140 Do you have any

00:50:08.500 idea?

00:50:08.900 Well, no, I can only

00:50:09.880 speculate.

00:50:10.420 I think some part of

00:50:11.240 this oikophobia, I 0.55

00:50:12.340 honestly think

00:50:12.940 enlightenment philosophy

00:50:13.960 has played a big

00:50:14.660 role in this.

00:50:15.240 I think the influence

00:50:18.280 of, you know, ideas

00:50:20.260 about power

00:50:20.980 structures and, you

00:50:22.840 know, all this stuff

00:50:23.420 that's coming from

00:50:24.120 America.

00:50:24.760 It used to come from

00:50:25.380 Europe.

00:50:25.500 Maybe, but the

00:50:25.800 Chinese have an 0.95

00:50:26.420 awful lot of power

00:50:27.080 in Asia, and I

00:50:27.780 never heard anybody

00:50:28.440 say you should, like,

00:50:29.880 you know, it's

00:50:30.440 outrageous that, you

00:50:31.660 know, China is 95%

00:50:33.360 Han or something. 0.66

00:50:34.200 It's not even a thing.

00:50:35.500 It's something about

00:50:36.500 what, well, as they

00:50:38.080 say in our

00:50:38.400 universities, whiteness

00:50:39.680 is uniquely 0.81

00:50:40.960 offensive.

00:50:42.480 It's uniquely, and I

00:50:43.260 don't think that's a

00:50:43.920 product of enlightenment

00:50:45.020 philosophy because, I

00:50:46.520 mean, that was, this

00:50:47.700 is a new thing.

00:50:48.620 This is post-war.

00:50:49.600 The Second World War

00:50:50.220 did this in some way

00:50:51.020 that I don't fully

00:50:51.580 understand.

00:50:52.400 I don't understand at

00:50:53.020 all, actually.

00:50:53.960 I think, so,

00:50:55.460 Alex Day McIntyre

00:50:57.360 has an explanation of

00:50:59.980 how to make sense of

00:51:00.980 what, how we derailed

00:51:03.680 in trying to make sense

00:51:04.800 of the Second World 0.65

00:51:05.520 War.

00:51:05.760 I mean, obviously,

00:51:06.260 you know, Hitler was 0.87

00:51:06.780 evil and all of that.

00:51:07.520 I mean, no one

00:51:07.900 disagrees with that.

00:51:08.680 Obviously.

00:51:09.000 But, so, so, the

00:51:11.160 wrong lesson from the

00:51:12.400 Second World War is

00:51:13.480 that nationalism is

00:51:14.780 evil, or a sense of

00:51:16.620 pride in your identity

00:51:17.860 is evil.

00:51:18.600 And there are a lot

00:51:19.020 of people who would

00:51:19.560 really like us to

00:51:20.320 believe this, that we

00:51:21.160 need to abolish

00:51:21.900 communal identities.

00:51:24.620 McIntyre's line...

00:51:25.300 Only when they're

00:51:25.820 white.

00:51:26.540 Yes, yes.

00:51:27.520 Yeah, of course.

00:51:28.100 It's actually, I

00:51:28.860 don't think anyone

00:51:29.460 thought the lesson of

00:51:30.140 the war was that

00:51:30.600 nationalism is evil,

00:51:31.660 only that nationalism 1.00

00:51:32.500 is when whites do it. 0.96

00:51:33.300 Yeah, when whites do 0.98

00:51:33.960 it, yeah.

00:51:34.700 So, McIntyre's line

00:51:35.880 is that a sense of

00:51:38.100 communal identity

00:51:39.040 and pursuing what

00:51:39.840 is good for your

00:51:40.480 people is a good.

00:51:42.220 And what went wrong

00:51:43.260 with the Second World 0.87

00:51:44.160 War was that Hitler 0.95

00:51:45.140 was trying to pursue

00:51:46.240 this good at the

00:51:47.300 expense of all other

00:51:48.400 goods.

00:51:49.080 He was detaching this

00:51:50.100 one thing from

00:51:50.740 everything else.

00:51:51.760 And you cannot do

00:51:52.800 that without committing

00:51:53.720 evil and inflicting

00:51:54.620 evil.

00:51:55.680 And so, I think it's a

00:51:58.760 bizarre situation where

00:51:59.920 we are in currently,

00:52:00.880 but...

00:52:01.460 So, I thought and

00:52:02.740 think that the lesson

00:52:03.980 of the Second World 0.65

00:52:04.620 War was that 0.91

00:52:05.560 targeting people for

00:52:06.900 violence and

00:52:08.560 discrimination, but

00:52:09.420 especially violence, on

00:52:10.700 the basis of their

00:52:11.780 immutable genetic

00:52:13.360 characteristics, was

00:52:15.120 wrong.

00:52:15.820 Like, that's what I was

00:52:16.700 taught.

00:52:17.240 It's inerrant evil.

00:52:18.700 I believe that now as

00:52:20.060 much as I've ever

00:52:20.700 believed it.

00:52:22.340 And, but it's just

00:52:23.260 crazy to see people say

00:52:25.380 that on the one hand,

00:52:26.500 and then for a lot of

00:52:28.860 people, a lot of our

00:52:29.620 leaders, the lesson of

00:52:30.520 the Second World War

00:52:31.080 was, no, that's good.

00:52:32.740 Actually, you need to

00:52:34.020 target more people on

00:52:35.060 the basis of their

00:52:35.820 immutable ethnic 1.00

00:52:36.660 characteristics, their 0.99

00:52:37.420 whiteness, and kill 1.00

00:52:39.500 them. 1.00

00:52:40.900 That's the lesson?

00:52:41.920 That's the opposite

00:52:42.960 lesson.

00:52:43.980 Right?

00:52:44.680 Yeah, of course.

00:52:45.400 Well, so in South

00:52:46.280 Africa, and this is

00:52:47.520 part of the bizarre

00:52:48.620 part of it, is the

00:52:50.060 ruling party in South

00:52:50.800 Africa, they would 1.00

00:52:51.360 write in their own

00:52:53.020 policy documents, they

00:52:54.620 say, our ideology is a

00:52:56.740 blend of race,

00:52:57.600 nationalism, and

00:52:58.340 socialism.

00:52:59.440 That's literally what

00:53:00.380 Nazi means.

00:53:01.780 Now, I'm not saying

00:53:02.360 they're Nazis, but in 0.59

00:53:03.760 some sense, they're 0.59

00:53:04.540 calling themselves

00:53:05.220 Nazis.

00:53:05.640 If they say, we

00:53:06.460 promote a combination

00:53:07.780 of race, nationalism,

00:53:09.020 and socialism.

00:53:09.220 Yeah, I don't think

00:53:09.740 people can hear

00:53:10.420 themselves.

00:53:11.160 I mean, I think even

00:53:13.180 this conversation will

00:53:14.200 be like, oh, that's a

00:53:15.080 Nazi conversation.

00:53:15.880 It's like, no, no,

00:53:16.500 no, no, we're

00:53:17.600 arguing, or I'll speak

00:53:18.600 for myself, I'm

00:53:19.260 arguing against what I

00:53:20.460 thought the core idea

00:53:21.660 was, or the core bad

00:53:24.580 idea in the Second

00:53:25.200 World War, which is

00:53:26.020 that you should

00:53:26.700 attack people, hurt 0.98

00:53:28.100 people, because of 0.98

00:53:29.120 how they were born.

00:53:30.320 I'm just...

00:53:30.640 Based on who they

00:53:31.300 are.

00:53:31.800 Always been opposed

00:53:32.620 to that, I will

00:53:33.140 always be opposed to

00:53:34.260 that.

00:53:35.240 But now it's like

00:53:36.280 complaining about it

00:53:37.900 makes, I don't know,

00:53:39.300 it's all so...

00:53:40.700 You're not even

00:53:41.160 allowed to say this,

00:53:41.980 ask yourself.

00:53:42.140 It's also fake, it's

00:53:43.420 also fake.

00:53:44.280 Like, it's actually,

00:53:45.240 this is all a cover for

00:53:46.160 something much more

00:53:47.060 sinister that is not

00:53:48.460 really related to the

00:53:49.340 Second World War.

00:53:49.900 Like, I just don't

00:53:50.880 think, because it

00:53:51.200 doesn't make any sense.

00:53:52.340 As an intellectual

00:53:53.180 exercise, you just

00:53:53.920 like, immediately hit a

00:53:54.800 brick wall.

00:53:55.580 Yep.

00:53:55.840 Like, what you're

00:53:56.240 saying is nonsensical.

00:53:57.960 Right?

00:53:59.260 Yeah, well, it's

00:54:01.380 difficult to make sense

00:54:02.280 of it, because it's

00:54:03.040 completely irrational.

00:54:04.220 It's completely

00:54:04.840 irrational.

00:54:05.560 Therefore, I think it's

00:54:07.080 a lie, because it

00:54:08.600 doesn't even, like,

00:54:09.480 you don't even, I

00:54:10.300 don't have especially

00:54:11.080 high IQ, and it's

00:54:11.920 super obvious to me

00:54:13.000 that it doesn't make

00:54:14.080 any sense.

00:54:14.560 So, like, what,

00:54:15.720 really, I guess there's

00:54:16.560 no answer, I don't

00:54:17.480 know the answer, but

00:54:18.740 there's something very

00:54:19.680 deep going on here,

00:54:20.720 where the leaders

00:54:22.600 of every country

00:54:23.280 in the world all

00:54:23.820 of a sudden decide

00:54:24.440 this one ethnic

00:54:25.280 group needs to be 1.00

00:54:26.140 killed. 1.00

00:54:26.820 Like, what?

00:54:27.600 I think one part of

00:54:28.900 it is something that

00:54:29.500 you've said before,

00:54:30.400 which is affluence.

00:54:32.100 People in the

00:54:33.180 Western world have

00:54:33.840 become very affluent,

00:54:35.000 and unfortunately, as

00:54:36.040 a result of that,

00:54:37.300 very self-centered,

00:54:38.920 and in many ways,

00:54:40.220 they've become

00:54:40.680 disconnected from

00:54:41.620 their communities,

00:54:42.500 disconnected from

00:54:43.340 their tradition,

00:54:44.360 and so forth.

00:54:44.740 Yeah, there's no

00:54:45.040 doubt about that,

00:54:46.120 but I mean, I, you

00:54:46.920 know, spent a lot of

00:54:47.780 time in the Gulf,

00:54:49.620 in the Persian Gulf,

00:54:51.500 the most affluent

00:54:52.240 countries in the

00:54:52.840 world per capita,

00:54:53.980 I think.

00:54:55.300 I mean, they are.

00:54:56.960 And, you know,

00:54:57.920 whatever you think

00:54:58.560 of them, you don't

00:54:59.840 see a lot of Arab

00:55:00.500 leaders being like,

00:55:01.260 we really, we're too

00:55:02.000 Arab.

00:55:03.160 That's the problem, 0.99

00:55:04.060 where I hate myself

00:55:04.860 for my Arab-ness.

00:55:05.820 Like, that doesn't

00:55:06.200 even occur to them,

00:55:07.180 to their great credit,

00:55:08.440 by the way.

00:55:09.300 I don't think self-hatred's

00:55:10.680 ever good.

00:55:11.120 I don't think hating

00:55:11.760 anybody on the basis

00:55:12.420 of race is ever good.

00:55:14.500 It's only this one

00:55:15.880 group that does it.

00:55:17.600 I'd like to believe,

00:55:19.280 and I hope that I'm

00:55:20.040 right, that it's a

00:55:21.300 minority within the

00:55:22.440 Western world that

00:55:23.140 really believes this

00:55:23.900 stuff.

00:55:24.220 I think.

00:55:24.740 But they have

00:55:25.340 significant power and

00:55:26.400 influence.

00:55:26.960 Boy, do they.

00:55:27.600 They are the editors

00:55:28.240 of newspapers, they

00:55:29.320 are the prime

00:55:29.800 ministers, they are

00:55:31.220 professors at

00:55:32.160 universities, and so

00:55:33.360 forth.

00:55:33.620 And those are the

00:55:34.380 people who's promoting

00:55:35.600 this type of idea.

00:55:36.500 When I think most

00:55:37.140 hard-working, ordinary

00:55:38.460 people don't fall for

00:55:39.800 this.

00:55:40.120 Well, certainly most

00:55:40.820 authentic Christians

00:55:41.720 reject it out of hand

00:55:43.520 immediately.

00:55:44.580 It's essentially

00:55:45.380 anti-Christian in many

00:55:46.480 ways.

00:55:46.660 Well, it is the

00:55:47.380 definition of anti-Christian,

00:55:48.560 I think.

00:55:49.400 I mean, that's my,

00:55:50.140 what do I know?

00:55:50.900 Don't take theology

00:55:51.480 advice from me, but

00:55:52.260 that's certainly my

00:55:53.560 truest, deepest belief

00:55:55.380 that this is immoral,

00:55:58.300 you know, no matter who

00:55:59.200 it's done to.

00:55:59.860 Yep.

00:56:00.520 So one, I should have

00:56:01.560 said this at the

00:56:01.940 outset, but one of the

00:56:03.980 reasons there's been

00:56:04.940 this real change in

00:56:06.960 people's willingness in

00:56:07.880 the West to talk about

00:56:09.220 what's happening in

00:56:09.980 South Africa in an

00:56:10.780 honest way, not with the

00:56:12.840 false pieties of

00:56:13.700 Desmond Tutu was so

00:56:14.700 great, whatever

00:56:15.680 Desmond, you know,

00:56:16.400 you think of Desmond

00:56:16.920 Tutu, not much, but

00:56:18.780 we were required to

00:56:20.480 talk about South

00:56:21.060 Africa in a very 1.00

00:56:21.820 specific way and to

00:56:23.480 repeat certain

00:56:24.320 cliches at really at

00:56:25.700 gunpoint.

00:56:27.120 And that's changed in

00:56:28.880 the past couple of

00:56:29.840 months, and it's

00:56:30.600 really changed due to

00:56:32.320 a South African

00:56:33.320 emigre called Elon

00:56:35.060 Musk.

00:56:36.040 This is my

00:56:36.820 perspective, you tell

00:56:37.500 me yours, but he

00:56:38.440 has made it possible

00:56:39.640 through X, but also

00:56:40.900 through statements he's

00:56:41.620 made on X, that

00:56:42.840 to say the obvious,

00:56:43.700 which is this is a

00:56:44.340 crime against a

00:56:45.980 beleaguered minority

00:56:46.720 and, you know, this

00:56:47.420 is racism against

00:56:48.440 human beings, and

00:56:49.100 it's wrong.

00:56:50.760 Do you feel that?

00:56:52.640 Yes, so I don't

00:56:54.020 know how much of

00:56:54.920 what is in his

00:56:55.720 biography by

00:56:56.760 Isaacson is true,

00:56:58.060 but it does seem

00:56:58.700 from his biography

00:56:59.340 that he's had some

00:57:00.800 bad experiences

00:57:01.640 growing up in

00:57:02.320 South Africa, which

00:57:03.980 is unfortunate.

00:57:05.220 And we were, we're

00:57:07.860 still not sure quite

00:57:08.700 how attached he still

00:57:09.800 is to South Africa

00:57:10.580 as a country, but

00:57:11.240 looking at his X and

00:57:12.260 his comments, it's

00:57:13.020 very clear that he's

00:57:13.880 interested.

00:57:15.060 And the strange

00:57:16.380 thing is, even

00:57:16.940 though some people

00:57:17.540 are very angry with

00:57:18.420 him for speaking

00:57:19.040 about South Africa,

00:57:19.700 the only thing that

00:57:20.680 he's really doing is

00:57:22.020 he's picking up a

00:57:23.080 mirror and he's

00:57:23.940 saying, look at

00:57:24.620 what's happening in

00:57:25.260 South Africa.

00:57:25.860 And he's just, he's

00:57:27.300 retweeting videos from

00:57:29.040 rallies in South

00:57:30.280 Africa.

00:57:30.820 Exactly.

00:57:31.700 He's literally just

00:57:32.680 saying to people, look

00:57:33.460 at this stuff that's

00:57:34.200 happening in South

00:57:34.800 Africa.

00:57:35.500 What do you think of

00:57:36.320 this?

00:57:36.600 Are you okay with

00:57:37.360 this?

00:57:37.460 No, I think, well, a

00:57:38.900 lot of people, I

00:57:39.520 think I can speak for

00:57:40.880 a lot of people in

00:57:41.780 saying that we're

00:57:42.380 really, really

00:57:42.920 grateful for, for

00:57:44.120 what Elon Musk is

00:57:45.060 doing to shed light

00:57:46.780 on what is happening

00:57:47.560 in South Africa.

00:57:47.940 It must be so weird

00:57:49.100 to live in a country

00:57:50.160 that has received so

00:57:51.340 much attention from

00:57:52.620 Western media, so

00:57:53.660 much attention.

00:57:55.140 I mean, there's no

00:57:55.540 other country in

00:57:56.040 Africa where your 0.96

00:57:56.640 average American knows

00:57:57.580 the name of three

00:57:58.320 famous people.

00:57:59.700 You know what I

00:58:00.360 mean?

00:58:00.620 There's not even

00:58:01.680 close.

00:58:02.340 Name three famous

00:58:03.680 people from, you

00:58:04.660 know, Congo, no,

00:58:06.380 you know, but every

00:58:08.280 American knows about 0.91

00:58:09.260 Nelson Mandela,

00:58:09.840 probably Woody

00:58:10.300 Mandela, Desmond

00:58:11.280 Tutu.

00:58:12.760 Jan Smits was also

00:58:13.660 very big, who

00:58:15.420 became this Boer 1.00

00:58:16.020 general who was a

00:58:17.040 advisor to Churchill.

00:58:18.940 He joined the

00:58:19.560 English in the, I

00:58:20.420 think, in the First

00:58:20.880 World War, like,

00:58:21.620 right, you know.

00:58:22.820 Yes, First and

00:58:23.820 Second World War.

00:58:24.840 Right, but the

00:58:25.340 First World War was,

00:58:26.740 you know, not even

00:58:27.700 15 years after the

00:58:28.780 Boer War, so that 1.00

00:58:29.660 was a pretty

00:58:30.100 remarkable decision

00:58:31.040 that he made.

00:58:31.920 I don't think most

00:58:32.660 people are that in

00:58:33.800 tune, but.

00:58:34.320 Yep.

00:58:34.660 They know the big

00:58:35.240 outlines, but of

00:58:36.940 what happened post

00:58:37.840 94, and they know

00:58:39.400 all about apartheid

00:58:40.340 and all that, but

00:58:42.040 it must be so

00:58:43.240 weird to be living

00:58:44.060 in this country

00:58:44.700 where all this

00:58:46.080 stuff is happening

00:58:46.720 and nobody is

00:58:48.480 saying anything

00:58:48.920 about it.

00:58:49.660 Yeah, it's

00:58:50.760 crazy.

00:58:51.540 It really is.

00:58:52.500 And I have to

00:58:53.960 say, the last few

00:58:54.880 months has been

00:58:55.540 quite a ride in

00:58:56.920 terms of what we,

00:58:57.820 you know, the

00:58:58.440 executive order

00:58:59.580 signed by President

00:59:00.520 Trump and

00:59:01.260 statements coming

00:59:01.900 from the U.S.

00:59:02.520 Tell us about

00:59:03.520 that executive

00:59:04.000 order, if you

00:59:04.460 don't mind.

00:59:04.920 So, the executive

00:59:05.580 order is a very

00:59:06.940 strong reprimanding

00:59:08.440 of what the South

00:59:09.060 African government

00:59:09.740 is doing.

00:59:11.140 It says that the

00:59:12.080 South African

00:59:12.460 government is,

00:59:13.300 well, as Trump

00:59:13.860 said, is treating

00:59:14.600 certain sections of

00:59:15.700 society very badly.

00:59:19.740 And that the U.S.

00:59:21.420 have a call, that's

00:59:21.980 the Trumpiest thing

00:59:23.000 ever said.

00:59:25.800 And the U.S.

00:59:26.520 will not stand for

00:59:27.260 this.

00:59:27.740 And so, it boils

00:59:28.920 down to sanctions

00:59:30.260 in an important

00:59:31.340 way, which is

00:59:32.360 not, on one part

00:59:33.960 of it says that

00:59:34.740 they will grant

00:59:35.620 refugee status to

00:59:36.820 Afrikaners if they 0.92

00:59:38.280 want to go to the

00:59:39.000 U.S.

00:59:40.040 Which I don't think,

00:59:41.300 in all fairness,

00:59:41.880 we're really grateful

00:59:42.660 for the public

00:59:44.460 stance taken by the

00:59:45.760 U.S.

00:59:46.060 And in a certain

00:59:46.820 sense, they

00:59:47.740 haven't gone far

00:59:48.360 enough, but in a

00:59:49.860 certain sense, I

00:59:50.560 don't think the

00:59:51.360 granting of refugee

00:59:52.600 status is much of

00:59:54.380 a solution.

00:59:55.280 Some people will

00:59:56.000 take that up, but

00:59:57.560 that's why I told

00:59:58.800 you the story of

00:59:59.660 the Battle of

01:00:00.240 Blood River and

01:00:00.880 the vow.

01:00:01.380 We are culturally

01:00:02.260 very, very attached

01:00:03.620 to South Africa.

01:00:05.860 And so, most of

01:00:06.800 I think your family

01:00:07.320 got to South Africa

01:00:08.500 around the time my

01:00:09.060 family got to the

01:00:09.580 United States.

01:00:10.660 Hundreds of years.

01:00:11.480 This is my country.

01:00:12.460 I think I'm

01:00:12.880 ninth generation.

01:00:14.760 And so,

01:00:15.620 I also have a

01:00:16.560 mother of English

01:00:17.160 descent, and I'm

01:00:17.800 also, unlike you,

01:00:18.860 I'm ashamed of it.

01:00:21.120 Sorry, just kidding.

01:00:22.180 Sort of, not really.

01:00:23.340 But, but, yeah, no,

01:00:25.160 of course, I mean,

01:00:25.620 it's your country.

01:00:26.440 I mean, what, at

01:00:27.420 that point, what, you

01:00:28.600 know.

01:00:28.740 So, I think, I think

01:00:29.860 what a better response

01:00:32.260 from the U.S.

01:00:32.900 could be is to take a

01:00:35.360 firm stance against what

01:00:36.300 is happening in terms

01:00:37.480 of what the South

01:00:37.940 African government is

01:00:38.680 doing, but then to

01:00:40.980 say how can the U.S.

01:00:42.400 support minority

01:00:43.440 groups in South Africa

01:00:44.360 who are really working

01:00:45.340 for some form of

01:00:46.220 self-determination.

01:00:47.360 I think America should

01:00:49.160 recognize that it does

01:00:50.820 have part in the

01:00:53.600 problem in terms of

01:00:54.820 what happened

01:00:55.220 historically.

01:00:55.680 Are you kidding?

01:00:56.320 Yes, it does.

01:00:57.000 Big time.

01:00:57.720 Yes, and therefore,

01:00:58.920 it's reasonable, and I

01:01:00.480 think it's fair, and I'm

01:01:01.880 hesitant to say this

01:01:02.760 because I'm not an

01:01:03.360 American, but I think 0.99

01:01:04.600 it's reasonable to say

01:01:05.580 that America has some

01:01:06.540 form of a moral

01:01:07.200 responsibility.

01:01:08.220 Not to fix South

01:01:09.160 Africa, but at least to

01:01:10.440 try to rework this mess

01:01:13.540 that has been created

01:01:14.380 because it was involved

01:01:15.620 in creating this mess.

01:01:16.560 We're, we've mobilized

01:01:17.720 our State Department to

01:01:18.580 defend, quote, trans

01:01:19.720 rights in the Donbass,

01:01:21.260 okay?

01:01:21.820 We've weighed into

01:01:22.640 every sectarian

01:01:24.260 conflict in this world

01:01:26.320 for the past 80 years.

01:01:27.860 Yeah, I think we can

01:01:28.500 certainly say that a

01:01:30.600 minority group targeted

01:01:31.700 for genocide in a

01:01:32.800 country we've been

01:01:33.300 involved in really

01:01:34.140 intimately for my entire

01:01:35.480 life, that that group

01:01:36.700 has a right not to be

01:01:37.880 killed and to have some

01:01:38.660 measure of self-determination.

01:01:39.720 I think we can do that.

01:01:40.640 Yeah.

01:01:40.720 That's not too big.

01:01:41.380 Absolutely.

01:01:42.080 Right?

01:01:42.640 Yeah.

01:01:43.020 And the solution, I would

01:01:44.200 say the most sustainable

01:01:45.100 solution is to help such

01:01:46.360 communities to govern

01:01:47.540 themselves, to have

01:01:48.380 self-determination.

01:01:50.160 And it's not only,

01:01:51.400 obviously it would be in

01:01:52.220 our interest, but I think

01:01:53.740 it's also in the interest

01:01:54.620 of the West and of

01:01:55.920 America.

01:01:56.560 Well, just on principle,

01:01:57.340 like every other group in

01:01:58.460 the world has the right to

01:01:59.960 its own homeland except

01:02:01.120 white people?

01:02:02.080 Like what?

01:02:02.880 Yeah.

01:02:03.200 Like tell me, just explain

01:02:04.760 to me how that makes

01:02:05.580 sense.

01:02:06.280 Either no group has the

01:02:07.680 right or every group has

01:02:09.340 the right.

01:02:09.660 It's really that simple.

01:02:10.420 And if you want to say no

01:02:11.140 group has the right, okay.

01:02:12.560 You might even convince me.

01:02:13.900 I don't know.

01:02:14.320 I'm not a race guy, actually,

01:02:15.500 by my temperament at all.

01:02:17.040 I'd kind of like to ignore

01:02:18.040 it.

01:02:18.660 But as long as some groups

01:02:19.740 have a right to self-determination,

01:02:21.600 then every group has a right.

01:02:22.900 It's that simple.

01:02:24.160 Yes.

01:02:24.280 And if there's a special

01:02:25.060 carve-out where one group

01:02:26.100 doesn't have a right, you 0.89

01:02:26.940 have to explain to me why

01:02:27.880 that group doesn't have that

01:02:28.680 right.

01:02:29.020 Yeah.

01:02:29.520 Is that fair?

01:02:30.320 No, it's absolutely fair.

01:02:31.660 Well, I think South Africa

01:02:32.700 is a...

01:02:33.780 What?

01:02:34.020 I mean, what the hell is...

01:02:34.960 Why are we playing along with 0.97

01:02:36.600 this nonsense?

01:02:37.100 Yeah, this narrative has

01:02:39.760 become this massive stream

01:02:41.340 that is turned into

01:02:42.440 rapids on a river

01:02:43.980 that just pulls everyone

01:02:45.580 along.

01:02:46.020 And this narrative just says

01:02:47.340 if you're white, then there's 0.97

01:02:48.360 inherently something wrong

01:02:49.380 with you.

01:02:49.760 It doesn't make any sense,

01:02:51.020 and it's leading toward a

01:02:52.440 really bad conclusion,

01:02:53.640 obviously, as it has for...

01:02:55.940 Every other group

01:02:57.400 targeted in this way

01:02:58.880 has really suffered in a bit...

01:03:00.760 And there are a lot of them.

01:03:01.860 Okay?

01:03:02.300 It's not...

01:03:02.900 There are a lot of them.

01:03:03.940 Yep.

01:03:04.360 And it never ends up well.

01:03:06.480 And I just don't know

01:03:07.700 why we're playing along

01:03:08.800 where you're not even

01:03:09.900 allowed to say

01:03:10.540 you haven't been.

01:03:11.480 I don't care anymore,

01:03:12.260 obviously.

01:03:13.480 But, again,

01:03:15.080 either every group

01:03:16.700 has a right to self-determination

01:03:17.980 or no group does.

01:03:19.360 You can't have this system

01:03:20.900 where, you know,

01:03:22.280 some groups do

01:03:22.880 or all groups do

01:03:23.780 but one...

01:03:24.500 No, no, no.

01:03:25.020 It's all or nothing on this.

01:03:26.400 Yeah, well, I can guarantee...

01:03:28.040 Tell me how I'm wrong.

01:03:28.740 No.

01:03:29.580 Well, I can guarantee you

01:03:31.260 that when I get back home,

01:03:33.300 I'm going to be in a lot of trouble

01:03:34.460 for this interview.

01:03:35.360 I don't know why, though.

01:03:36.600 I mean, like,

01:03:36.900 what's the counter-argument?

01:03:38.220 I don't really get it.

01:03:39.700 Like, what is the counter-argument?

01:03:41.260 There's only one group

01:03:42.400 on the entire face of the planet

01:03:43.640 that doesn't have the right

01:03:44.480 that every other group has?

01:03:45.740 Like, tell me how.

01:03:47.740 It's...

01:03:48.140 It's really bizarre.

01:03:49.600 Maybe there's a good answer.

01:03:50.560 I'm waiting for it.

01:03:51.700 No, well, we don't know

01:03:52.620 what the answer is.

01:03:53.320 So there is no answer.

01:03:54.360 And so because there is no answer,

01:03:56.180 the way that uniformity

01:03:57.400 is maintained

01:03:59.640 is just through threats. 1.00

01:04:00.540 Like, shut up! 1.00

01:04:02.080 You're a bad person 1.00

01:04:03.160 for saying that. 1.00

01:04:03.980 You're a Nazi. 0.97

01:04:04.480 It's like, no, no, no. 1.00

01:04:05.140 I hate the Nazis.

01:04:06.080 I'm going to speak for myself. 1.00

01:04:06.840 I hate the Nazis. 0.98

01:04:07.620 Of course. 0.98

01:04:07.880 I hate the idea

01:04:08.740 that people are attacked

01:04:10.140 for something they can't control,

01:04:11.520 like how they're born,

01:04:12.420 their genetics.

01:04:13.100 I just don't believe in that.

01:04:14.040 I never will.

01:04:14.580 I'm a Christian.

01:04:15.000 I don't believe in it.

01:04:16.040 So you can call me

01:04:16.500 whatever you want.

01:04:17.100 I'm actually making

01:04:17.640 the opposite case.

01:04:19.360 And I haven't done anything

01:04:20.800 to be ashamed of.

01:04:22.060 And if defending

01:04:23.100 the right of people

01:04:24.460 not to be murdered

01:04:25.340 because of how they were born

01:04:27.220 is a crime,

01:04:28.240 then I'll plead to it.

01:04:29.280 But I actually think

01:04:31.220 that the only thing

01:04:32.420 that people currently in charge

01:04:34.240 of most of the world,

01:04:35.500 certainly of the West,

01:04:36.280 are good at

01:04:36.740 is seizing the moral high ground.

01:04:38.560 And they don't deserve it.

01:04:39.760 They haven't earned it. 1.00

01:04:40.940 They're rotten. 1.00

01:04:41.920 Their ideas are rotten. 1.00

01:04:42.980 And they don't deserve 0.96

01:04:44.140 to lecture the rest of us

01:04:45.220 about our moral inferiority

01:04:47.060 while they're endorsing

01:04:48.780 the murder of people

01:04:50.200 for how they were born.

01:04:51.300 Sorry.

01:04:51.600 It's a house of cards.

01:04:52.760 Yeah.

01:04:53.300 What is a house of cards?

01:04:54.420 It's exactly right.

01:04:55.220 Yeah, it's built

01:04:56.400 and it's a very shining

01:04:57.980 house of cards

01:04:58.740 and it's very proud

01:04:59.540 of its accomplishments,

01:05:00.640 but it's not sustainable.

01:05:02.600 So South Africa

01:05:03.420 has been a victim

01:05:05.100 of Western imperialism

01:05:06.860 in many ways,

01:05:08.400 ideologically currently,

01:05:10.300 ideological imperialism,

01:05:11.660 but also,

01:05:12.820 and this is interesting,

01:05:14.220 the ANC

01:05:14.800 that's governing

01:05:15.300 South Africa today

01:05:16.140 was founded

01:05:17.080 just after the unionization

01:05:18.840 of South Africa

01:05:19.480 in 1910.

01:05:21.000 And they said

01:05:21.480 that this was

01:05:22.600 one of the major triggers

01:05:23.680 that sparked us

01:05:24.660 to start this movement.

01:05:26.460 And the unionization

01:05:27.300 was after the Boer War,

01:05:28.880 before the union,

01:05:30.600 South Africa was 0.96

01:05:31.540 a variety

01:05:32.920 of different republics

01:05:34.100 and colonies

01:05:34.620 governing themselves.

01:05:36.220 And unionization

01:05:37.020 effectively meant

01:05:37.960 that all of these

01:05:38.640 different subsidiary

01:05:40.360 authorities

01:05:40.880 were combined

01:05:41.780 into one big

01:05:43.060 South Africa.

01:05:43.820 As we know it today,

01:05:44.460 the borders of South Africa

01:05:45.520 were actually drawn

01:05:46.280 pretty much by the British

01:05:47.620 in 1910.

01:05:49.260 And the ANC

01:05:49.900 were vehemently opposed.

01:05:50.860 They have a long history

01:05:51.740 of border drawing,

01:05:52.760 I notice.

01:05:53.680 You see this

01:05:54.080 when you have

01:05:54.420 these completely

01:05:54.980 straight borders.

01:05:57.200 That's artificial.

01:05:59.120 And so the borders

01:06:00.160 we have for South Africa

01:06:01.080 today

01:06:01.520 was a product

01:06:02.880 of Western imperialism.

01:06:04.680 And now those in power

01:06:05.780 would very much like

01:06:06.800 to maintain these borders

01:06:08.120 because they have control.

01:06:09.800 And so if we are truly

01:06:11.140 anti-colonialism

01:06:13.000 and anti-imperialist,

01:06:14.620 we should return

01:06:15.600 to a position

01:06:16.100 where people

01:06:16.560 govern themselves.

01:06:17.380 We should rethink

01:06:18.080 the borders.

01:06:18.940 You'll never be allowed

01:06:19.880 to do that.

01:06:20.400 I mean,

01:06:20.540 let's just cut right

01:06:21.240 to the no BS part of this.

01:06:23.680 That will not be allowed.

01:06:25.200 It's never been allowed.

01:06:26.780 You will need

01:06:27.820 either to get to force,

01:06:29.500 which I pray you don't

01:06:30.440 because I hate that. 0.98

01:06:31.860 I hate killing. 0.99

01:06:33.700 Or you will need 0.92

01:06:34.800 the assistance

01:06:35.280 of a powerful

01:06:36.660 outside force

01:06:37.380 that makes it happen.

01:06:39.560 That's just a fact.

01:06:40.560 Is that fair to say?

01:06:41.600 Yeah, no,

01:06:42.000 I think it's fair to say.

01:06:43.160 I mean...

01:06:43.340 Right?

01:06:43.620 So anyone who says, 1.00

01:06:44.560 I want to kill you, 1.00

01:06:46.500 you know, 1.00

01:06:46.780 kill the boar, 1.00

01:06:48.740 you're subhuman, 1.00

01:06:50.440 those are not people

01:06:51.580 who are going to say,

01:06:52.020 yeah, yeah,

01:06:52.280 go ahead

01:06:52.840 and create your own

01:06:53.620 independent state

01:06:54.460 and not bother anybody

01:06:55.240 because you're going to be

01:06:56.460 way more successful

01:06:57.400 and prosperous

01:06:58.040 than they are

01:06:58.900 and they're going to hate you

01:06:59.940 on the basis of envy,

01:07:01.200 of course.

01:07:01.680 That's already happening.

01:07:02.780 And we have to ask them nicely

01:07:04.340 to make certain concessions

01:07:05.960 towards us.

01:07:06.280 No, I get it.

01:07:06.780 It's not going to happen.

01:07:07.800 So what is your plan?

01:07:10.400 Well, I think the plan is to,

01:07:13.540 firstly,

01:07:13.960 to be well-organized communities,

01:07:16.660 to have a very strong sense

01:07:18.040 of community,

01:07:18.680 a sense of pride

01:07:19.540 in who we are

01:07:20.100 to remain Christian

01:07:21.340 and have a strong faith,

01:07:23.980 strong family ties

01:07:25.580 and so forth.

01:07:26.000 That's where it starts.

01:07:26.940 And then other than that,

01:07:28.000 the second step,

01:07:28.880 you might say,

01:07:29.400 the plan is to just create

01:07:32.000 certain realities

01:07:32.880 on ground level.

01:07:33.620 So it's one thing to say,

01:07:34.740 you know,

01:07:34.940 we want more authority

01:07:36.820 or more self-determination,

01:07:38.160 but you have to,

01:07:38.720 in a sense,

01:07:39.720 create that

01:07:40.360 so that what you have created

01:07:42.420 can be recognized.

01:07:44.100 There's no point in saying,

01:07:45.340 well,

01:07:45.680 you guys can have your own place,

01:07:47.920 but that place doesn't exist.

01:07:50.020 So I think,

01:07:50.960 I think what the Afrikaner people

01:07:52.100 need to do is,

01:07:53.360 in a large,

01:07:53.880 to a large extent,

01:07:54.540 build their own self-determination.

01:07:56.180 And I think that,

01:07:56.720 that's what we intend to do,

01:07:59.240 but it would help a lot

01:08:00.280 if we can get recognition

01:08:01.460 for this pursuit

01:08:02.300 as a legitimate pursuit.

01:08:04.160 So you don't think,

01:08:05.240 I sort of just

01:08:06.500 didn't ask you to pause

01:08:08.060 and I should have.

01:08:08.880 You began this segment

01:08:10.240 of the conversation

01:08:10.780 by saying,

01:08:11.640 the current scheme,

01:08:13.080 the current arrangement

01:08:13.600 is not going to work.

01:08:14.380 Yep.

01:08:16.680 I think most people,

01:08:18.280 certainly I as an outsider,

01:08:19.400 instinctively kind of

01:08:20.380 want it to work.

01:08:21.060 Well,

01:08:22.680 it's a good story.

01:08:23.560 It sounds like a good story.

01:08:24.520 It's a good story.

01:08:24.900 Yeah,

01:08:25.100 it is.

01:08:25.740 I mean,

01:08:26.040 I'll admit to being 0.98

01:08:27.440 kind of a dopey liberal 0.97

01:08:28.280 in some ways, 0.95

01:08:29.000 I really prefer the idea

01:08:32.140 of,

01:08:32.320 you know,

01:08:32.440 people living together

01:08:33.120 in harmony.

01:08:33.680 It's just,

01:08:33.940 I just feel that way.

01:08:34.580 I can't help it.

01:08:35.380 Maybe that's my

01:08:35.900 enlightenment legacy

01:08:38.620 or something.

01:08:40.740 I also think

01:08:41.320 you should deal with reality

01:08:42.000 and I definitely

01:08:42.840 don't think you should

01:08:43.420 be allowed to kill people

01:08:44.480 because of the way 0.99

01:08:44.920 they look,

01:08:45.340 period.

01:08:45.540 So,

01:08:47.140 by the way,

01:08:47.720 how did these people,

01:08:49.420 why did they go on TV

01:08:50.600 like they're on the right side?

01:08:52.520 They're like endorsing genocide.

01:08:54.760 Like,

01:08:54.920 I don't understand

01:08:56.080 how they've been allowed

01:08:57.140 to get away with

01:08:58.100 being on Winnie Mandela's side

01:09:00.180 and feeling self-righteous.

01:09:01.740 I just don't get that. 0.64

01:09:02.700 I think it's disgusting.

01:09:03.620 Whatever I said that five times,

01:09:04.560 I can't say it enough.

01:09:06.280 But,

01:09:06.760 how do you know

01:09:08.680 it won't work?

01:09:09.700 Like,

01:09:10.260 ANC obviously 0.94

01:09:11.060 is a criminal gang, 1.00

01:09:12.460 totally incompetent. 0.99

01:09:13.580 You don't have electricity 0.97

01:09:14.380 a lot of the time.

01:09:15.000 Like,

01:09:15.140 it's not working.

01:09:15.760 They're just stealing everything.

01:09:16.780 Got it.

01:09:17.520 Stealing the copper

01:09:18.180 out of the wires.

01:09:19.560 But,

01:09:20.060 there's not another

01:09:20.820 political coalition

01:09:21.940 that could run it effectively?

01:09:23.360 No.

01:09:23.880 So,

01:09:24.440 you mentioned electricity.

01:09:26.040 In Johannesburg,

01:09:26.940 the mayor,

01:09:27.440 just a few days ago,

01:09:28.360 announced that people

01:09:29.100 should just wait seven days

01:09:30.480 and then they will have water.

01:09:32.320 So,

01:09:32.760 it's not just an electricity problem.

01:09:34.540 There's a water problem.

01:09:35.300 There's a water problem.

01:09:36.400 You're going to have a food problem

01:09:37.560 at some point.

01:09:38.320 Well,

01:09:38.580 if the farmers are targeted,

01:09:39.820 yes.

01:09:40.500 So,

01:09:40.680 there are many reasons

01:09:41.700 why it's not working

01:09:44.020 and why

01:09:44.560 it won't work.

01:09:45.880 And,

01:09:46.060 well,

01:09:46.280 everything you can think of

01:09:47.340 points to that direction.

01:09:49.040 One is just the data.

01:09:50.540 As I said,

01:09:50.980 you can look at the levels

01:09:52.380 of how crime is increasing,

01:09:53.980 how unemployment is increasing,

01:09:55.340 how government service delivery

01:09:56.380 is increasingly failing,

01:09:57.600 everything,

01:09:58.040 everything.

01:09:59.420 Honestly,

01:10:00.120 health,

01:10:00.480 how health is deteriorating,

01:10:03.080 everything except tax collection.

01:10:05.320 That's one aspect of it.

01:10:06.860 Another aspect of it

01:10:07.820 is just the extent

01:10:08.660 to which people

01:10:09.400 in South Africa

01:10:10.060 are turning their back

01:10:11.440 on politics.

01:10:12.700 There's this political vacuum

01:10:14.100 in South Africa

01:10:14.720 and you can see it,

01:10:15.500 for example,

01:10:16.600 with the extent

01:10:17.500 to which people

01:10:18.180 have stopped voting,

01:10:19.400 how voters' turnout

01:10:21.540 has dropped significantly

01:10:22.760 in elections.

01:10:23.700 People just don't

01:10:24.300 interest it.

01:10:25.560 They vote reluctantly,

01:10:26.680 those who do.

01:10:27.860 So,

01:10:28.200 that's one aspect of it.

01:10:29.060 Interesting.

01:10:30.500 Why do you think

01:10:31.700 that because they feel hopeless?

01:10:33.080 Because they feel

01:10:33.800 the political establishment

01:10:35.260 is completely disconnected.

01:10:37.080 They don't,

01:10:38.300 it doesn't resonate with them.

01:10:40.240 They don't,

01:10:40.640 people vote for parties

01:10:41.640 even though

01:10:42.020 they don't really like them,

01:10:43.740 but they think this is,

01:10:44.640 of all the parties,

01:10:45.280 I don't like any of them,

01:10:46.260 but this one is the least bad,

01:10:48.300 so I'll vote for that one.

01:10:49.600 So,

01:10:49.840 there's a complete disconnect

01:10:50.860 between the politicians

01:10:51.880 or the political elite

01:10:53.280 in South Africa,

01:10:53.900 even the opposition parties

01:10:55.260 and the people.

01:10:57.140 And so,

01:10:57.400 there's this political vacuum

01:10:58.580 that has developed

01:10:59.440 and this vacuum is filled

01:11:01.200 as my friend

01:11:02.580 Adam Stonsel in South Africa

01:11:03.760 says,

01:11:04.140 either by the good guys

01:11:05.120 or the bad guys.

01:11:06.300 It's filled by the bad guys

01:11:07.820 in terms of organized crime.

01:11:09.300 So,

01:11:09.440 we have these mafias 1.00

01:11:10.520 and gangs

01:11:11.380 coming to the fore

01:11:12.200 with significant power

01:11:13.480 to such an extent

01:11:14.640 that the government

01:11:15.180 is afraid of them

01:11:15.960 or it can be filled.

01:11:17.220 Boy,

01:11:17.300 that is the story globally,

01:11:18.660 isn't it?

01:11:19.060 Yeah.

01:11:19.680 Well,

01:11:20.000 yeah,

01:11:20.340 I think it is.

01:11:21.020 The drug cartels

01:11:21.720 are one of the most powerful

01:11:22.560 governments in the world

01:11:23.380 and they're not even a government.

01:11:24.420 It's incredible,

01:11:25.260 yeah.

01:11:25.380 So,

01:11:25.520 we have a construction mafia,

01:11:26.880 for example.

01:11:27.440 If you build a shopping center,

01:11:29.440 the construction mafia

01:11:30.520 turns up

01:11:31.100 and they tell you,

01:11:31.860 you need to employ our people

01:11:33.300 or else we're going to

01:11:34.180 sabotage your building

01:11:35.160 and stuff like that.

01:11:36.200 And it's a regular thing.

01:11:38.360 And you can't fight them.

01:11:39.300 No,

01:11:39.580 you can't.

01:11:40.060 You can't fight them.

01:11:41.100 But the vacuum can be filled

01:11:43.320 by the good guys

01:11:44.060 and that's well-organized communities

01:11:45.920 who take control

01:11:47.180 of what is important to them.

01:11:48.900 And so,

01:11:49.200 the future is very,

01:11:50.080 and that's what

01:11:50.600 analysts

01:11:51.600 and scenario

01:11:52.960 analysts

01:11:54.000 and so forth

01:11:54.520 have been saying

01:11:55.080 that the future

01:11:56.420 is one of deterioration

01:11:57.660 where you will have communities

01:11:59.220 who will be

01:12:00.600 much worse off

01:12:02.220 than they are today

01:12:02.940 because of the bad guys

01:12:04.640 filling the void

01:12:05.280 and you might have

01:12:06.740 flourishing communities

01:12:07.700 because of good guys

01:12:08.720 filling the void.

01:12:09.380 And so,

01:12:11.240 that's another reason

01:12:12.100 but I think

01:12:12.460 the most important

01:12:13.220 fundamental

01:12:14.140 underlying reason

01:12:15.160 why it's not sustainable

01:12:16.140 is it's a political system

01:12:17.540 that is detached

01:12:19.080 from the reality

01:12:19.860 in South Africa.

01:12:20.620 The reality is

01:12:21.400 the distance from Cape Town,

01:12:23.120 the south,

01:12:23.540 to the north

01:12:24.100 of South Africa

01:12:24.780 is the distance

01:12:25.500 from Rome to London.

01:12:26.820 So,

01:12:27.120 it's a big country.

01:12:29.120 Number one,

01:12:30.000 but it's not homogenous

01:12:31.340 by any means.

01:12:32.300 It's very diverse.

01:12:33.600 There's 11 official languages

01:12:35.260 in South Africa.

01:12:35.360 Right.

01:12:35.540 It's not just,

01:12:36.020 just to restate,

01:12:36.760 it's not just black and white

01:12:37.800 at all.

01:12:38.340 No, no, no, no.

01:12:38.920 But no, it's certainly not.

01:12:39.700 There's this Indian community,

01:12:40.800 there's what we call

01:12:41.860 colored community

01:12:42.720 in South Africa

01:12:43.320 and there are various

01:12:44.660 different tribes,

01:12:45.840 you could say,

01:12:46.520 or cultural communities

01:12:48.080 among black South Africans

01:12:49.640 and among white South Africans.

01:12:51.360 So,

01:12:51.640 it's very diverse,

01:12:52.820 different languages,

01:12:53.700 different cultures.

01:12:55.580 And now,

01:12:57.020 we have this political system

01:12:58.140 that just says

01:12:58.800 you have individual rights.

01:13:00.680 And in some ways,

01:13:01.880 the constitution,

01:13:02.620 even though it was

01:13:03.320 very much celebrated

01:13:04.440 when it was adopted,

01:13:05.560 it was called

01:13:06.040 the best constitution

01:13:07.000 in the world

01:13:07.720 and the most liberal,

01:13:09.000 most democratic,

01:13:09.700 and so forth.

01:13:10.660 The constitution says-

01:13:11.560 It guarantees everything,

01:13:12.460 but you get nothing.

01:13:13.060 Yeah, exactly.

01:13:13.680 That's exactly it.

01:13:14.220 So, we have what they call

01:13:14.960 third generation rights,

01:13:16.380 first, second, and third.

01:13:17.400 It's a very vast network

01:13:19.500 of rights that you have

01:13:20.880 in theory.

01:13:22.340 But then the question is,

01:13:24.100 so there's this idea

01:13:25.000 that the highest authority

01:13:26.280 is the constitution,

01:13:28.140 but it's not possible

01:13:29.340 for a written document

01:13:30.500 to have the highest authority.

01:13:31.940 The highest authority

01:13:32.720 is with the person

01:13:33.540 who gets to interpret it.

01:13:35.360 So, for example,

01:13:39.840 section 25

01:13:40.900 of the constitution

01:13:41.840 in South Africa,

01:13:42.500 which the government

01:13:43.040 is trying to change,

01:13:43.940 it's a private property

01:13:44.860 rights clause.

01:13:45.860 They want to change it.

01:13:47.220 But currently,

01:13:47.940 it says the government

01:13:48.640 can expropriate your property

01:13:50.620 if it's in the public interest.

01:13:52.780 Now, if you ask me

01:13:53.580 as a Westerner,

01:13:54.400 when is it in public interest

01:13:56.260 to expropriate property?

01:13:57.520 It would be something like

01:13:58.360 they have to build

01:13:59.020 a big highway

01:13:59.700 or maybe there's

01:14:01.100 a military emergency

01:14:02.060 or something like that.

01:14:03.260 If you ask a judge

01:14:05.320 who is founded

01:14:06.040 in this ideology

01:14:07.160 we've just spoken of,

01:14:08.680 they would say

01:14:09.100 it's in the public interest

01:14:09.960 for white people 0.88

01:14:10.600 not to own land.

01:14:12.020 So, it's a question

01:14:13.240 of interpretation.

01:14:14.140 You can have

01:14:14.440 a wonderful document,

01:14:15.420 but it boils down

01:14:16.320 to how do you interpret it?

01:14:18.300 And that's why I'm saying

01:14:19.300 it's not compatible

01:14:20.380 with realities

01:14:21.520 on ground level.

01:14:22.620 And, you know,

01:14:23.440 there have been

01:14:24.760 many law fairs

01:14:25.780 in South Africa,

01:14:26.360 many, many, many.

01:14:27.080 South Africa is a very good example

01:14:28.220 of political court cases.

01:14:29.820 And we've won many

01:14:30.640 and we've lost many.

01:14:32.060 But it's a ship

01:14:35.580 that is sinking.

01:14:36.740 That's the fact.

01:14:37.060 Well, and it all seems fake.

01:14:38.480 I mean, it seems like

01:14:39.420 and I, again,

01:14:40.840 one of the reasons

01:14:41.200 I'm so fascinated

01:14:41.880 by your country

01:14:42.480 is I think it's

01:14:43.480 on a trajectory

01:14:45.720 that I recognize

01:14:47.440 as an American.

01:14:49.040 So, you have

01:14:49.660 these legacy institutions

01:14:50.800 that sort of go

01:14:51.700 through the kabuki

01:14:52.320 of dispensing justice,

01:14:53.900 but it's not justice actually.

01:14:54.960 It's totally disconnected

01:14:55.720 from justice.

01:14:56.160 It doesn't mean anything.

01:14:57.280 Yes.

01:14:58.060 And you have

01:14:58.820 this constitution

01:14:59.460 which is beautiful,

01:15:00.460 which is, you know,

01:15:02.140 ignored.

01:15:02.720 The only power resides 0.88

01:15:03.680 in the people

01:15:04.060 who interpret it,

01:15:05.500 as you said.

01:15:06.300 Yeah.

01:15:07.440 And so then you reach

01:15:09.160 kind of the end point

01:15:10.060 or the most recent end point,

01:15:11.180 which is the idea

01:15:11.920 that whites can't own land. 0.67

01:15:13.220 Can you explain this?

01:15:14.340 So, they have been trying

01:15:15.680 to change

01:15:16.300 the South African constitution,

01:15:17.740 the property rights clause,

01:15:18.840 to empower the government

01:15:19.760 to expropriate private property

01:15:21.620 without compensation.

01:15:22.880 That's the buzzword.

01:15:23.840 Just steal the land.

01:15:25.200 Yeah.

01:15:25.820 They call it EWC.

01:15:27.360 It's expropriation

01:15:27.980 without compensation,

01:15:28.720 but it's confiscation

01:15:29.540 of property.

01:15:30.120 That's what it is.

01:15:30.760 Well, how is expropriation

01:15:31.880 without compensation

01:15:32.560 different from stealing?

01:15:33.720 No, exactly.

01:15:35.400 But...

01:15:35.560 It's just shoplifting.

01:15:36.960 I mean, what?

01:15:38.520 It's flabbergasting

01:15:39.880 to see the extent

01:15:40.920 to which, again,

01:15:42.240 academics and analysts

01:15:43.560 and journalists

01:15:44.400 are rushing to the defense

01:15:45.860 of the South African government.

01:15:47.060 In South Africa there?

01:15:47.640 Yes.

01:15:48.240 So, here's one of the many

01:15:49.760 bizarre things

01:15:50.460 that they would say.

01:15:51.080 They would say,

01:15:51.560 this is all a lie.

01:15:52.500 You guys are lying.

01:15:53.560 It's not expropriation

01:15:54.940 without compensation.

01:15:56.420 It's expropriation

01:15:57.360 with compensation,

01:15:58.640 but compensation can be nil.

01:16:00.880 So, it can be zero compensation.

01:16:02.900 So, it's not happening,

01:16:03.700 but it's a good thing that it is.

01:16:04.920 Yeah, that's it.

01:16:05.560 That's exactly it.

01:16:06.420 As always, right.

01:16:07.160 And so, the president

01:16:08.780 has just signed

01:16:09.420 the expropriation bill

01:16:10.480 in South Africa,

01:16:11.260 which is now...

01:16:12.280 Which they now...

01:16:13.240 He signed it.

01:16:14.140 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:16:14.760 So, there's still

01:16:17.680 an attempt to change

01:16:18.380 the constitution

01:16:18.800 and there's now

01:16:19.340 a new bill

01:16:19.880 in process.

01:16:22.580 It was just announced,

01:16:23.400 I think, a week ago

01:16:24.080 that they want to pass

01:16:25.060 through parliament

01:16:25.500 that says that 80% of...

01:16:27.900 That's what it boils down to.

01:16:29.200 That 80% of land

01:16:30.260 or property in South Africa

01:16:31.200 must be owned 0.97

01:16:31.940 by black people. 0.98

01:16:33.280 So, because it says

01:16:34.280 it must be racially representative.

01:16:36.740 And so,

01:16:37.280 I want to tell you

01:16:38.160 a quick story about this

01:16:39.040 because it sort of

01:16:39.660 highlights the ideology.

01:16:41.020 I was at a land summit

01:16:42.500 in South Africa

01:16:43.340 and a spokesperson

01:16:45.120 for the Department

01:16:46.120 of Land Reform

01:16:47.720 spoke

01:16:48.120 and it was very clear

01:16:49.660 from his speech

01:16:50.380 that the problem is

01:16:51.700 white people owning land. 0.78

01:16:53.080 It was a racial thing.

01:16:54.080 It was very clear

01:16:54.580 but it's coloured

01:16:56.080 with words like

01:16:57.120 restitution

01:16:57.880 and correcting

01:16:59.320 historic injustices

01:17:00.600 and so forth.

01:17:01.920 And so,

01:17:02.200 I asked him

01:17:02.620 at this summit,

01:17:03.260 I said,

01:17:03.620 so,

01:17:03.900 here's an example

01:17:05.040 and what would

01:17:06.440 the government's

01:17:07.100 position be on this?

01:17:08.080 The example is

01:17:09.000 a white guy

01:17:10.320 owns a farm,

01:17:11.400 the government

01:17:11.840 takes it from him

01:17:12.680 to correct

01:17:13.420 historic injustices

01:17:14.600 and they give it 0.99

01:17:16.100 to a black guy 0.95

01:17:16.700 and it's a black farmer

01:17:17.720 and maybe a year

01:17:19.560 or two down the line

01:17:20.340 this black farmer 0.97

01:17:21.120 decides he doesn't 0.98

01:17:21.960 want to be a farmer anymore,

01:17:23.160 he wants to sell his land

01:17:24.300 and the buyer is white

01:17:26.040 and now there's

01:17:26.920 a white farmer again.

01:17:28.660 What's the government's

01:17:29.500 position on this?

01:17:30.340 And the spokesperson

01:17:31.040 for the department

01:17:31.960 says in that case

01:17:33.160 the correction

01:17:34.340 of the injustice

01:17:35.500 has been reversed.

01:17:38.080 It's completely bizarre

01:17:40.840 and what's interesting

01:17:42.440 is we've seen

01:17:43.080 this exact movie

01:17:44.900 frame by frame

01:17:46.040 right next door

01:17:47.440 in Zimbabwe,

01:17:48.580 formerly Rhodesia,

01:17:49.620 which was one of

01:17:50.800 the most prosperous

01:17:51.400 countries in Africa,

01:17:52.500 one of the big tobacco

01:17:53.220 producers in Africa.

01:17:54.400 It's very sad

01:17:55.800 what happened

01:17:56.200 to that country.

01:17:56.740 Well,

01:17:56.920 it's shocking

01:17:57.480 but it's again,

01:17:58.360 it's like organized

01:17:59.860 government sponsored

01:18:00.500 racism doesn't work

01:18:01.540 and I don't care

01:18:02.140 how often

01:18:03.340 the New York Times

01:18:04.560 defends it,

01:18:05.380 it's always the same

01:18:06.400 and that is like

01:18:09.940 right next door

01:18:10.900 to you

01:18:11.220 and you have

01:18:11.740 a refugee crisis

01:18:12.560 in your country

01:18:13.400 because of it

01:18:14.260 and

01:18:15.380 well,

01:18:15.660 our government

01:18:16.420 are ruling

01:18:16.860 so what do they

01:18:17.320 say to that?

01:18:17.960 No,

01:18:18.120 they say that

01:18:18.860 Robert Mugabe

01:18:19.460 is a hero

01:18:20.060 and that ZANU PF

01:18:21.640 the party

01:18:22.600 is a good party

01:18:24.620 and it's a liberation

01:18:25.820 force and we respect

01:18:26.920 them.

01:18:27.300 Okay,

01:18:27.500 so again,

01:18:28.800 no one wants

01:18:29.280 to use the term

01:18:30.160 but this is

01:18:32.000 genocide.

01:18:33.280 I mean,

01:18:33.480 that's what that is.

01:18:34.040 It's like targeting

01:18:34.880 a group of people

01:18:35.940 for extinction

01:18:36.660 elimination

01:18:37.140 on the basis

01:18:38.460 of immutable characteristics

01:18:39.820 like I don't know

01:18:40.520 what,

01:18:40.840 is there another

01:18:41.180 genocide definition

01:18:42.560 I'm not aware of?

01:18:44.420 Well,

01:18:44.740 I think you can say

01:18:46.400 there are threats

01:18:47.080 of that happening.

01:18:48.460 There's not a genocide

01:18:49.220 happening in South Africa.

01:18:49.940 No,

01:18:50.100 I'm not saying there is.

01:18:50.900 I'm saying

01:18:51.340 that's where it's going.

01:18:52.740 Like what's the other

01:18:53.320 end point here?

01:18:55.020 Well,

01:18:55.400 yes.

01:18:55.920 You're not human,

01:18:56.620 you can't own land, 1.00

01:18:57.400 you should be killed. 1.00

01:18:59.260 What am I missing? 1.00

01:18:59.760 Yes,

01:18:59.960 and yeah,

01:19:00.480 if you own land

01:19:01.200 by definition

01:19:01.980 that's illegitimate

01:19:03.060 regardless of whether

01:19:03.880 you bought the land,

01:19:04.660 it doesn't matter

01:19:05.060 how you got the land.

01:19:06.100 Because of your race.

01:19:07.360 Because of your race,

01:19:07.980 yes.

01:19:08.220 If we can't say

01:19:09.220 that's wrong,

01:19:10.880 then,

01:19:11.860 you know,

01:19:12.260 anyone who can't

01:19:12.960 say that's wrong,

01:19:13.500 anyone who makes excuses

01:19:14.380 for that is a dangerous person.

01:19:15.940 I don't know what else to say.

01:19:17.860 Put another group in there.

01:19:18.900 I don't care what group it is.

01:19:20.540 So the ANC in South Africa

01:19:21.920 wanted to,

01:19:22.780 they have this process

01:19:23.620 of name changes.

01:19:24.900 And by the way,

01:19:25.460 this targeting of statues

01:19:26.580 came from South Africa.

01:19:27.620 It's happening in America.

01:19:28.740 It started in South Africa,

01:19:29.740 you know,

01:19:29.900 burning down statues

01:19:30.760 and so forth.

01:19:31.860 So,

01:19:32.340 and they've had

01:19:32.940 this long process

01:19:33.600 of name changes

01:19:34.420 and one thing

01:19:35.420 they wanted to

01:19:36.160 change the street

01:19:38.140 in which the US embassy

01:19:39.320 is in South Africa

01:19:40.400 to Fidel Castro Avenue.

01:19:42.580 That's one story.

01:19:43.700 The other one is

01:19:44.220 they wanted to change

01:19:45.140 one of the main streets

01:19:46.020 in Pretoria

01:19:46.560 to name it after Mao Tse Tung.

01:19:48.980 And then some of the

01:19:49.560 opposition parties said, 0.99

01:19:50.600 are you crazy? 1.00

01:19:51.500 Do you know what 1.00

01:19:52.020 Mao Tse Tung did?

01:19:53.440 And the response was,

01:19:54.340 remember,

01:19:55.180 Mao was never convicted

01:19:56.300 of any crime.

01:19:57.080 It does seem

01:20:02.460 not only like

01:20:03.260 one of the worst governments

01:20:04.020 in the world, 1.00

01:20:04.320 but one of the dumbest also. 1.00

01:20:07.800 Well, 1.00

01:20:08.500 so I think,

01:20:09.360 I think there's part,

01:20:10.660 there's some explanation

01:20:11.760 as to why

01:20:12.560 the South African government

01:20:13.560 has gone so off the rails.

01:20:14.660 And it's that they've gotten

01:20:15.600 a free pass for decades.

01:20:17.540 Yeah, that's right.

01:20:18.100 Because of this narrative,

01:20:18.960 they could do and say

01:20:19.920 whatever they want.

01:20:21.020 They got no criticism

01:20:22.020 or very little criticism

01:20:23.440 or very careful criticism.

01:20:25.740 And that's why I think

01:20:26.600 they've gone so ballistic

01:20:28.200 after the recent comments

01:20:30.420 by Trump

01:20:31.100 and people like Elon Musk

01:20:32.280 and so forth.

01:20:32.640 Oh, have they?

01:20:33.260 I'm sorry.

01:20:33.900 I don't follow it that closely.

01:20:35.300 Have they,

01:20:35.800 those comments were noticed

01:20:36.780 in South Africa?

01:20:37.060 Oh, yeah, absolutely.

01:20:38.200 Yeah, it's the biggest story

01:20:39.820 in South Africa at the moment.

01:20:41.020 Really?

01:20:41.620 And what are they saying?

01:20:42.980 Well, they're saying

01:20:43.880 that we've,

01:20:45.180 the organizations

01:20:45.940 that I was involved with

01:20:46.920 at the time

01:20:47.340 have committed treason,

01:20:48.360 that we've been charged

01:20:49.080 for treason.

01:20:49.920 You've been charged

01:20:50.360 with treason?

01:20:51.020 Yeah.

01:20:51.500 For what?

01:20:52.560 For speaking,

01:20:53.420 well, among others,

01:20:54.220 for me speaking with you

01:20:55.280 about what's happening.

01:20:56.160 That's treason?

01:20:56.940 Yeah, because it's

01:20:57.920 bad-mouthing your country. 0.74

01:20:59.720 That's the argument. 1.00

01:21:00.980 Damn. 0.99

01:21:01.420 So I don't know 0.99

01:21:01.920 if it was this,

01:21:03.880 one of the opposition parties

01:21:05.320 who filed the charges.

01:21:05.440 I wanted to go to Cape Town

01:21:06.580 for Christmas

01:21:07.160 just on vacation.

01:21:08.220 I didn't have time in the end,

01:21:09.880 but probably shouldn't go.

01:21:12.660 Is that what you're saying?

01:21:13.600 No, no, you should come

01:21:14.520 to South Africa.

01:21:15.300 No, you should definitely come.

01:21:16.580 It's funny.

01:21:17.900 I don't know

01:21:18.460 if much will come

01:21:19.800 from the treason charges,

01:21:21.000 but that's certainly

01:21:21.640 the action.

01:21:22.640 But you've been charged

01:21:23.700 with treason.

01:21:24.100 Yeah, there were

01:21:24.740 official complaints

01:21:26.140 filed at the police.

01:21:27.280 Yes, yes.

01:21:28.560 What's the penalty

01:21:29.120 for treason in South Africa?

01:21:30.660 It would be imprisonment.

01:21:31.800 We don't have the death penalty.

01:21:34.140 No, they just

01:21:34.880 necklace you. 0.55

01:21:36.440 It's informal.

01:21:38.020 Well, I'm honestly,

01:21:39.420 seriously,

01:21:39.800 I'm more concerned

01:21:40.500 if the question is about safety,

01:21:42.640 about mob justice

01:21:43.860 in South Africa

01:21:45.040 than the actual government

01:21:46.700 coming off to you.

01:21:47.680 Of course.

01:21:48.440 So what does that look like?

01:21:50.500 Well, we have,

01:21:53.360 I think you reported on this

01:21:54.840 in 2021,

01:21:56.640 I think when there was

01:21:57.280 this massive riots

01:21:58.420 in South Africa.

01:22:00.540 In Durban.

01:22:01.520 In Durban.

01:22:02.300 I remember that.

01:22:03.300 Yeah, it sort of spilled out

01:22:04.520 to Gauteng,

01:22:05.620 to Johannesburg,

01:22:06.260 to a lesser extent.

01:22:08.280 And it's just people,

01:22:09.540 it's almost like,

01:22:10.240 you know,

01:22:10.600 smelling blood

01:22:11.320 and becoming extremely violent

01:22:12.900 and so forth.

01:22:13.560 And people join in

01:22:14.460 by the thousands.

01:22:15.280 I've seen that

01:22:16.240 with my own eyes

01:22:16.920 a couple of times.

01:22:18.220 Yeah, it's really scary.

01:22:20.140 So someone,

01:22:20.680 a friend from Europe

01:22:21.340 once asked me,

01:22:22.000 are you not afraid

01:22:22.560 that the government's

01:22:24.240 going to come to your house

01:22:25.200 and take your stuff?

01:22:26.180 And my honest answer is,

01:22:27.380 not that much.

01:22:28.880 I'm more concerned

01:22:29.720 about a mob

01:22:30.360 showing up.

01:22:31.620 So then what do you do?

01:22:33.680 Well, if you are alone,

01:22:35.080 you can't do anything.

01:22:36.280 If you're a well-functioning,

01:22:37.660 well-organized community,

01:22:38.740 then the community,

01:22:39.480 you can call people

01:22:40.380 on the radio,

01:22:41.020 you can get the community

01:22:42.740 to take a stance.

01:22:44.720 And I think that's one of the things.

01:22:45.900 So you don't get lynched.

01:22:47.080 Yes.

01:22:47.780 You've got a lot of lynchings

01:22:48.800 and stuff.

01:22:49.200 I mean,

01:22:49.400 again,

01:22:50.420 add it to the irony file.

01:22:52.260 I mean,

01:22:52.440 South Africa's like 1.00

01:22:52.960 the world capital of lynching. 0.97

01:22:54.840 Yes.

01:22:55.380 Oh, I noticed.

01:22:56.160 Yeah.

01:22:56.800 It's not so much

01:22:57.680 white people who are targeted.

01:22:58.720 I'm aware. 0.98

01:22:59.400 No, blacks. 1.00

01:23:00.680 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0.68

01:23:01.340 Yeah, that certainly.

01:23:02.440 It has happened

01:23:03.040 in the previous dispensation.

01:23:04.760 It's still happening

01:23:05.400 to an extent,

01:23:06.620 not as much as in the past,

01:23:08.020 but people don't know

01:23:08.780 that it's still happening.

01:23:10.280 To people accused of crimes.

01:23:11.900 Yeah, and it's partly

01:23:12.920 due to the fact

01:23:13.520 that the police is absent.

01:23:14.820 Right.

01:23:15.000 So, especially in townships, 0.72

01:23:16.840 someone is a rapist

01:23:18.260 and the police doesn't show up,

01:23:19.820 doesn't do anything,

01:23:20.580 and then the local community

01:23:22.200 just deals with him.

01:23:23.880 That type of thing happens.

01:23:25.340 In a very brutal way.

01:23:27.460 Yes, yes.

01:23:29.020 Yeah, it does happen

01:23:29.800 in a brutal way.

01:23:30.900 Yeah.

01:23:32.240 Yeah.

01:23:33.360 I've noticed.

01:23:34.420 Like, pretty shocking.

01:23:35.300 Like, almost like

01:23:35.760 I wouldn't want to describe it.

01:23:36.880 Yeah.

01:23:37.340 Yeah, I mentioned

01:23:38.080 the necklace murders before.

01:23:39.320 So, we have that.

01:23:40.240 And it's the same

01:23:40.840 with the xenophobic violence.

01:23:42.160 It's very unfortunate.

01:23:43.920 And if we had

01:23:45.000 a well-functioning police service,

01:23:47.020 maybe that would have helped,

01:23:48.820 but we don't.

01:23:49.680 So, in South Africa,

01:23:51.240 we can check the numbers.

01:23:53.100 I'm pretty sure

01:23:53.640 the private security sphere

01:23:55.240 in South Africa

01:23:55.760 is almost as big

01:23:57.000 as private security in America,

01:23:59.100 but America is much larger.

01:24:00.980 Private security in South Africa

01:24:02.300 is more than double

01:24:04.440 the police and the army combined.

01:24:06.680 If you add the police

01:24:07.620 and the army up together

01:24:08.840 and you multiply it by two,

01:24:11.180 private security is

01:24:11.980 the amount of private security officers

01:24:13.720 in South Africa

01:24:14.240 or security guards is...

01:24:15.960 Do you have the right

01:24:16.760 of self-defense?

01:24:17.840 The right to defend yourself

01:24:18.760 and your family?

01:24:20.080 Yes, we do have the right

01:24:20.940 to self-defense.

01:24:21.580 We can own firearms,

01:24:22.520 although it's not as easy

01:24:23.460 as in America.

01:24:24.520 Yes.

01:24:24.880 But you can do that.

01:24:26.820 And you can get arms,

01:24:27.680 especially through

01:24:28.300 a private security company.

01:24:30.040 There's some room

01:24:30.940 to make sure

01:24:31.820 that you can protect yourself.

01:24:33.480 And does it work?

01:24:35.240 Yes.

01:24:36.060 Yes.

01:24:36.460 In terms of the farm murders,

01:24:37.840 we've seen that statistically,

01:24:39.560 that in communities

01:24:41.580 where areas or communities

01:24:43.240 where people are well-organized,

01:24:44.620 where they have radios,

01:24:45.420 where they drive patrols,

01:24:46.580 where they are trained,

01:24:47.840 there's a decrease in farm murders.

01:24:49.740 You can clearly see that.

01:24:50.980 Actually, in the last few years,

01:24:52.640 the farm murder numbers

01:24:53.860 have come down a bit.

01:24:56.040 And it's not because

01:24:57.160 the incitement has gotten better.

01:25:00.700 It's not because the police

01:25:01.780 is more efficient.

01:25:03.120 It's because local communities

01:25:04.740 have become much more involved

01:25:06.540 with their own safety.

01:25:08.880 And so that's certainly

01:25:10.000 one of the most important

01:25:11.040 building blocks of this solution.

01:25:12.260 So what,

01:25:12.940 now that the president,

01:25:14.540 I'm using air quotes again

01:25:15.660 around president,

01:25:16.340 I mean, the whole system is fake.

01:25:17.780 Obviously, it doesn't affect justice.

01:25:19.220 It doesn't improve

01:25:19.880 the lives of its citizens.

01:25:21.680 It's in no sense

01:25:22.560 illegitimate government.

01:25:24.260 And by the way,

01:25:24.660 it's not the only

01:25:25.260 illegitimate government

01:25:26.100 in the world.

01:25:27.620 But anyway,

01:25:29.500 what happens

01:25:30.720 when they try,

01:25:33.180 the government tries

01:25:34.080 to put this law into effect,

01:25:36.520 to try to act on it?

01:25:37.580 You know,

01:25:37.820 the government shows up

01:25:38.520 at your house as you can't,

01:25:39.900 you know,

01:25:40.740 you've lived in the same plot

01:25:41.880 for a hundred years.

01:25:42.620 You can't have it 0.98

01:25:43.120 because you're white. 0.99

01:25:43.640 We're taking it.

01:25:44.300 Like what,

01:25:44.660 do people comply?

01:25:46.640 No, no,

01:25:47.680 people won't comply.

01:25:49.160 No, we,

01:25:49.640 I mean,

01:25:49.860 that's partly why

01:25:50.520 I told this story

01:25:51.280 at the beginning

01:25:51.800 is the Afrikaner people

01:25:53.240 and the farmers

01:25:53.820 are very stubborn.

01:25:55.620 This,

01:25:56.060 in Afrikaans,

01:25:56.900 we say hardkoppig 0.63

01:25:57.680 or hardheaded.

01:25:59.040 So this idea.

01:25:59.860 Well, farmers,

01:26:00.500 you have to be stubborn

01:26:01.200 to be a farmer

01:26:01.760 in the first place.

01:26:02.620 Yes.

01:26:03.040 And especially a farmer

01:26:04.020 in South Africa.

01:26:04.580 I mean,

01:26:05.460 it's easier.

01:26:06.040 Yes, exactly.

01:26:07.620 So it's a common trope

01:26:09.460 among farmers

01:26:10.080 to say that

01:26:10.760 I would rather die

01:26:11.580 on my farm

01:26:12.200 than to hand it over

01:26:13.220 to the government.

01:26:14.980 And so I think

01:26:15.780 if they really try

01:26:16.840 to act on it,

01:26:18.340 which they haven't tried,

01:26:19.540 there are land invasions

01:26:20.740 in South Africa,

01:26:21.240 but it's not so much

01:26:22.160 the government,

01:26:22.820 it's mobs and gangs

01:26:24.020 and so forth

01:26:24.600 invading people's land.

01:26:26.160 But if they really try

01:26:27.360 to act on these attempts

01:26:28.540 at expropriation,

01:26:29.560 there's going to be

01:26:30.160 a massive backlash.

01:26:31.560 And that's,

01:26:32.060 there's no doubt.

01:26:33.240 So what they would say is,

01:26:34.540 this is actually

01:26:35.420 what the government says,

01:26:36.380 that we need to do

01:26:38.660 what happened

01:26:40.000 in Zimbabwe,

01:26:41.540 but without violence.

01:26:44.160 But that's how

01:26:45.200 they would argue it.

01:26:46.300 They actually say

01:26:46.720 we need to do

01:26:47.080 what happened in Zimbabwe?

01:26:48.200 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:26:48.960 But this time

01:26:49.540 without violence.

01:26:49.700 That's one of the worst

01:26:50.340 crimes of my lifetime.

01:26:51.640 Yeah, well,

01:26:52.020 they say it publicly.

01:26:53.000 Yeah, you can find it online.

01:26:54.520 And so the argument is,

01:26:55.960 but we are,

01:26:56.800 we're going to do it

01:26:57.300 a bit better.

01:26:58.320 We're going to do it

01:26:58.940 without violence.

01:26:59.540 But what that means

01:27:00.880 is we're going to do

01:27:02.300 what happened in Zimbabwe

01:27:03.520 and you are not going

01:27:04.500 to resist.

01:27:05.340 That's what it means.

01:27:06.260 But obviously,

01:27:06.740 people will resist

01:27:07.680 when they try to do that.

01:27:09.280 There's no doubt about it.

01:27:11.380 But I do think

01:27:12.200 the government 0.76

01:27:12.580 is very incompetent. 0.90

01:27:13.800 You know, 0.92

01:27:13.940 they have these

01:27:14.400 very radical ideas.

01:27:16.360 I don't know

01:27:17.080 if they have the competency

01:27:18.040 to actually go through.

01:27:20.400 That's the upside.

01:27:21.160 I lived in Washington, D.C.

01:27:22.280 almost my whole life.

01:27:23.800 And that was absolutely

01:27:24.920 true there.

01:27:26.080 You know,

01:27:26.280 the government make all these,

01:27:27.240 local government

01:27:27.700 make all these threatening noises,

01:27:28.980 do this,

01:27:29.400 do that,

01:27:29.720 do the other thing.

01:27:30.880 It's against the law

01:27:31.480 to do this,

01:27:32.080 whatever.

01:27:32.600 And you just kind of ignore,

01:27:33.420 people just ignored it.

01:27:35.640 So there are

01:27:36.680 some business organizations

01:27:37.960 in South Africa

01:27:38.640 who now use the term

01:27:40.380 maximum appropriate

01:27:42.460 non-compliance.

01:27:43.620 That's what they encourage

01:27:44.700 private companies to do.

01:27:46.540 So it's a form

01:27:47.300 of civil disobedience.

01:27:48.520 It's with all these BEE, 1.00

01:27:50.020 that's these

01:27:50.500 black empowerment laws.

01:27:51.680 Just say,

01:27:52.600 we're just not going to comply.

01:27:53.840 I know someone

01:27:54.480 who had a thriving business.

01:27:56.220 He built himself

01:27:56.900 in South Africa

01:27:57.900 and the government

01:27:58.880 showed up and said,

01:27:59.460 you're handing half

01:28:00.200 your business

01:28:00.680 to your new partner

01:28:01.740 who didn't do anything.

01:28:03.120 He would just show up

01:28:03.560 and collect the money

01:28:04.280 and it's just,

01:28:04.940 they stole half his business.

01:28:06.780 Because it's all theft.

01:28:07.760 I mean,

01:28:07.860 it doesn't,

01:28:08.540 I noticed that 0.61

01:28:09.100 black South Africans

01:28:09.980 haven't gotten richer

01:28:10.760 in the last 30 years.

01:28:11.440 And the government

01:28:12.460 owns the land,

01:28:13.160 most of the land

01:28:13.780 that they expropriate.

01:28:14.560 They don't give it to people.

01:28:15.820 It goes to the government.

01:28:16.800 So what if you were to say,

01:28:18.600 like,

01:28:19.160 how about no?

01:28:20.300 You have no legitimacy

01:28:21.360 and you haven't been here

01:28:23.740 any longer

01:28:24.060 than I've been here

01:28:24.740 and you have,

01:28:26.500 I mean,

01:28:27.120 and I have guns too,

01:28:28.040 so like,

01:28:28.380 I'm not participating.

01:28:29.120 How's that?

01:28:29.540 Yeah.

01:28:30.020 Well,

01:28:30.400 civil disobedience

01:28:31.220 can be a wonderful thing

01:28:32.280 and we've had some examples

01:28:33.540 of successful

01:28:34.200 civil disobedience campaigns

01:28:35.540 in South Africa

01:28:36.320 where the government

01:28:37.460 had this,

01:28:37.940 they call it

01:28:38.280 the ETOL system.

01:28:39.140 It's like a big tax system

01:28:40.960 on the highways

01:28:41.620 that just,

01:28:42.540 it's an electronic tax

01:28:43.580 toll system that,

01:28:45.240 but people just buy

01:28:46.020 the thousands,

01:28:47.240 tens of thousands

01:28:47.920 or hundreds of thousands

01:28:48.800 just refuse to comply

01:28:50.680 to get the tags

01:28:51.920 and so forth.

01:28:52.420 And eventually

01:28:52.800 they had to stop it

01:28:53.560 because even though

01:28:54.640 it was law,

01:28:55.380 people just didn't do it.

01:28:56.940 And the same with COVID.

01:28:58.020 COVID was a good example.

01:28:59.340 I love that.

01:28:59.960 We've had a bizarre COVID.

01:29:01.760 Everyone has had

01:29:02.400 a bizarre COVID.

01:29:03.120 So we had these strange laws

01:29:04.540 like you can't buy flip-flops

01:29:06.360 during COVID.

01:29:07.280 Those are deadly.

01:29:08.180 Yeah,

01:29:08.340 and you cannot buy shorts

01:29:09.680 and stuff.

01:29:11.260 You cannot buy cooked chicken.

01:29:12.700 We had these really,

01:29:13.640 really bizarre COVID laws.

01:29:16.000 It's a crime

01:29:16.720 to buy cooked chicken

01:29:17.620 or to sell cooked chicken

01:29:18.780 during COVID.

01:29:20.060 And so people just,

01:29:21.320 people just said,

01:29:22.740 well,

01:29:23.080 we don't care.

01:29:23.860 We're just going to do

01:29:24.560 what we want.

01:29:25.740 And so there was

01:29:26.740 a massive civil disobedience

01:29:28.600 phenomenon in South Africa

01:29:31.480 during the COVID lockdown.

01:29:33.440 And so I think people have learned

01:29:34.540 and the government

01:29:34.960 couldn't do anything about it.

01:29:35.980 I think people have learned

01:29:37.300 that you can actually do a lot

01:29:40.720 if you just don't comply

01:29:42.140 with these completely 0.97

01:29:43.220 ridiculous, 0.99

01:29:44.180 irrational laws. 1.00

01:29:46.760 That sounds,

01:29:47.200 I mean,

01:29:47.540 I don't live in South Africa,

01:29:48.840 but again,

01:29:49.340 I have lived in Washington,

01:29:50.260 D.C.

01:29:50.520 So that sounds totally right to me.

01:29:53.620 I wonder though

01:29:54.640 about what you said

01:29:55.520 when we first started

01:29:56.740 talking about this,

01:29:57.720 about the mob justice.

01:30:00.620 That does sound scary to me.

01:30:03.100 I think that's,

01:30:03.740 that's a bigger threat.

01:30:04.840 What do you do about that?

01:30:07.100 How do you live in a country

01:30:08.300 where,

01:30:08.740 you know,

01:30:09.120 like your neighbors

01:30:09.800 could rise up against you?

01:30:11.900 Yeah.

01:30:12.200 So,

01:30:12.360 so,

01:30:12.880 so we've had some examples

01:30:14.900 of this.

01:30:15.540 It started with the

01:30:16.640 roads must fall movement.

01:30:19.060 It was a,

01:30:20.060 Oh,

01:30:20.100 the roads.

01:30:20.580 Oh,

01:30:20.680 Cecil John roads.

01:30:21.720 So this one guy

01:30:22.820 defecated on Cecil John roads,

01:30:24.580 a statue at,

01:30:26.540 was it UCT?

01:30:27.600 What university was it?

01:30:28.600 In,

01:30:28.820 in,

01:30:29.180 in Cape Town.

01:30:30.440 And then they started

01:30:31.320 this movement. 0.99

01:30:32.100 You defecated on it. 0.99

01:30:33.140 Yeah. 0.99

01:30:33.540 Yeah.

01:30:33.900 That's attractive.

01:30:34.780 Well,

01:30:34.880 that,

01:30:35.080 that's kind of,

01:30:36.400 that's kind of,

01:30:36.900 kind of like the level

01:30:37.920 actually that you're dealing with.

01:30:39.500 Yeah.

01:30:39.920 And so they started,

01:30:40.680 they started this movement

01:30:42.260 of tearing down statues,

01:30:44.380 which eventually boiled

01:30:45.520 over to America.

01:30:46.300 And that's how it got to America.

01:30:47.600 It started in,

01:30:48.820 and it boiled out over to

01:30:50.300 Europe and so forth.

01:30:51.380 But it started with that,

01:30:52.940 this targeting of statues.

01:30:54.540 I think it was 2012

01:30:55.700 or something.

01:30:56.620 It was maybe before that even.

01:30:58.300 And it became a mob

01:31:00.260 and they,

01:31:01.420 they,

01:31:01.780 they wore t-shirts

01:31:02.740 with slogans like 1.00

01:31:03.760 kill the whites, 1.00

01:31:04.440 like on the t-shirt. 1.00

01:31:05.240 And,

01:31:05.620 and it became very violent

01:31:07.520 and very overtly racist.

01:31:09.980 And it was students

01:31:11.180 running around,

01:31:12.940 just,

01:31:13.260 you know,

01:31:13.860 setting things on fire,

01:31:15.060 burning down buildings

01:31:15.920 and stuff like that.

01:31:17.240 So that,

01:31:17.980 that is a real threat.

01:31:19.180 And then later we had

01:31:19.940 the fees must fall movement.

01:31:21.500 That was university students

01:31:22.620 demanding that

01:31:23.360 education must be free.

01:31:25.620 You shouldn't pay

01:31:26.500 to go to university.

01:31:27.680 And it was the same thing.

01:31:29.580 And now we've had these,

01:31:31.140 more recently,

01:31:31.940 we've had political parties

01:31:33.140 sort of taken up that thing.

01:31:34.440 This kill the Boer 1.00

01:31:35.260 and so forth.

01:31:36.740 And so I honestly think

01:31:38.060 in South Africa,

01:31:39.340 the threat of mob violence

01:31:40.360 is,

01:31:40.700 is a bigger threat

01:31:41.660 than the government.

01:31:42.480 Of course it is.

01:31:43.720 Of course it is.

01:31:45.180 And,

01:31:45.720 you know, 0.97

01:31:46.260 that's where you get killed.

01:31:47.780 The situations like that,

01:31:48.940 I think.

01:31:50.640 So,

01:31:51.500 what do you,

01:31:52.700 I mean,

01:31:52.880 you have to be pretty well-organized,

01:31:54.240 pretty well-armed.

01:31:55.740 Well,

01:31:56.120 the thing is,

01:31:57.120 there's no silver bullet.

01:31:58.220 There's no one thing

01:31:59.060 that we can do

01:31:59.800 to make sure

01:32:00.640 that we're equipped

01:32:02.200 to withstand that.

01:32:03.620 But if there is

01:32:04.620 a silver bullet,

01:32:05.780 it would be, 0.77

01:32:06.700 or the closest to it,

01:32:08.460 it would be

01:32:08.840 what I mentioned earlier

01:32:09.640 is well-organized communities.

01:32:11.980 Communities that have

01:32:13.000 a sense of community,

01:32:14.640 that recognize

01:32:15.640 that you have

01:32:16.600 a sense of responsibility,

01:32:17.920 not just towards yourself

01:32:18.960 and your own family,

01:32:19.780 but towards your community.

01:32:21.520 And that you have

01:32:23.040 some form of a communal identity

01:32:24.500 that is under threat,

01:32:25.580 that is being targeted.

01:32:26.740 And you have to protect yourself.

01:32:28.120 You have to fulfill

01:32:28.920 a bunch of functions

01:32:30.000 that the government

01:32:30.740 is not fulfilling.

01:32:32.100 Even though you're paying them

01:32:33.040 to do it,

01:32:33.480 they're not doing it.

01:32:34.580 So you have to look after

01:32:35.560 your own safety.

01:32:36.400 You need to have a gun.

01:32:37.280 You need to have

01:32:38.000 a bulletproof vest.

01:32:39.520 You need to have,

01:32:40.480 or if you don't,

01:32:41.260 then at least

01:32:41.620 a significant amount of people

01:32:42.960 in your community must.

01:32:44.600 Especially those 0.99

01:32:45.240 who are more interested

01:32:45.900 in this type of thing.

01:32:47.440 You need to be well-organized.

01:32:48.660 You need to be prepared

01:32:50.080 if something bad happens

01:32:51.760 in your community.

01:32:52.620 If the mob comes,

01:32:53.540 if they set the shopping mall

01:32:54.700 on fire,

01:32:55.560 or if they come

01:32:56.140 for people's houses,

01:32:57.660 that in a very short

01:32:59.280 time frame,

01:33:00.960 you can get a whole bunch

01:33:02.360 of people mobilized

01:33:03.580 to protect their community.

01:33:05.580 And with these riots

01:33:06.460 in 2021,

01:33:07.880 that was a good case study

01:33:08.980 because some communities

01:33:10.020 were completely unprepared

01:33:11.320 and they were virtually destroyed.

01:33:12.780 And some communities

01:33:13.680 were very well prepared.

01:33:15.160 And when the mobs arrived,

01:33:16.260 there was a bunch of people

01:33:17.040 with guns waiting for them.

01:33:18.240 Well, I saw a video

01:33:19.820 of the South Asian communities

01:33:21.800 in Durban.

01:33:22.920 The big South Asian,

01:33:23.780 big Indian community there.

01:33:25.780 And I don't know

01:33:27.300 if this is representative,

01:33:28.220 but the videos I saw,

01:33:29.200 man,

01:33:29.340 they were not putting up

01:33:30.180 with it at all.

01:33:30.980 Yeah, they were very well-armed.

01:33:32.760 Yes.

01:33:33.640 Yeah.

01:33:34.280 It's like some heroic Indians

01:33:36.240 out there.

01:33:36.700 Yeah, there was one,

01:33:37.480 I think,

01:33:37.820 some guy with something

01:33:38.780 that looked like a minigun

01:33:39.960 on the back of a pickup truck.

01:33:42.260 I don't know

01:33:42.860 where they got that.

01:33:43.780 I don't know.

01:33:44.440 But that's an example.

01:33:45.700 It was another example.

01:33:46.640 You know,

01:33:47.220 these videos are all out of context.

01:33:48.720 I'm not in Durban during this,

01:33:50.180 but I just,

01:33:50.840 that's true.

01:33:51.600 You got some brave Indians.

01:33:53.000 Yes, yes, I do.

01:33:53.840 We have some brave Indians.

01:33:54.940 We do.

01:33:56.120 But,

01:33:56.720 and there were other examples.

01:33:58.360 One was a,

01:33:59.560 the mob was approaching a town

01:34:01.100 and the people were waiting

01:34:02.520 for them on a bridge.

01:34:03.880 And then they got there,

01:34:04.580 they just couldn't enter

01:34:05.400 because the people

01:34:06.160 had just cordoned off

01:34:07.120 their own town,

01:34:08.540 their own village

01:34:09.240 or community

01:34:10.080 and they weren't able to enter.

01:34:12.060 So we've had some case studies

01:34:13.260 of this.

01:34:14.060 South Africa is a fascinating

01:34:15.120 case study for a lot of things.

01:34:16.380 It certainly is.

01:34:17.460 It certainly is. 0.99

01:34:18.780 Can I just ask like a dumb question, 0.98

01:34:20.700 a childish question? 0.99

01:34:22.500 Why,

01:34:23.000 if I'm the government

01:34:23.660 of South Africa,

01:34:24.280 it's like,

01:34:25.440 why are you going after

01:34:26.320 productive people

01:34:27.240 for one thing,

01:34:28.280 the most productive?

01:34:31.340 And that would include

01:34:32.520 the Indians,

01:34:34.020 the Afrikaners,

01:34:34.920 by the way,

01:34:35.620 some of the black African immigrants,

01:34:38.040 the Zimbabweans,

01:34:38.960 like,

01:34:39.260 these are like,

01:34:40.280 are some of the most productive people.

01:34:42.580 Why not just live in harmony,

01:34:45.240 actually?

01:34:46.380 So wouldn't it be better

01:34:47.660 for everybody?

01:34:48.420 Of course.

01:34:48.980 Of course it would be better.

01:34:50.340 I think it's because

01:34:51.520 they have,

01:34:52.280 when they took power in 1994,

01:34:54.080 they explicitly said,

01:34:55.340 we are not a political party.

01:34:57.520 We are not a government

01:34:58.680 in terms of what people

01:34:59.800 think a government should be.

01:35:01.120 We are a liberation movement

01:35:02.840 committed to the promotion

01:35:04.620 of socialism

01:35:05.320 and committed to the promotion

01:35:06.780 of black nationalism.

01:35:08.360 And that's their ideology.

01:35:09.900 They said that in 94.

01:35:11.240 Yeah,

01:35:11.560 they even said that before 94.

01:35:13.240 They published it.

01:35:13.860 So it's just,

01:35:14.600 I know I'm going back

01:35:15.180 to the same themes.

01:35:16.700 I'm getting older,

01:35:17.460 sorry.

01:35:18.160 But like,

01:35:19.200 no,

01:35:19.800 but I mean,

01:35:20.220 I actually did know that

01:35:21.400 because as I said,

01:35:22.760 I've always been interested

01:35:23.680 and I knew people there,

01:35:25.300 but nobody in the American press

01:35:27.400 mentioned that.

01:35:28.080 Not one person.

01:35:28.560 Yeah.

01:35:28.660 There's a well-known book

01:35:30.960 that was an international bestseller,

01:35:33.160 My Traitor's Heart

01:35:34.140 by a guy called Rian Malan.

01:35:36.360 It's sort of his autobiography.

01:35:37.760 I've read it.

01:35:38.060 Oh, yeah, yeah.

01:35:38.480 Okay.

01:35:39.120 And so there's one section

01:35:40.600 in that book.

01:35:41.500 I know Rian,

01:35:42.340 I know the author.

01:35:43.260 He's a great guy,

01:35:44.080 but in the book,

01:35:44.700 he writes about...

01:35:45.700 In English,

01:35:46.500 I don't know if he wrote

01:35:47.140 it off for cons originally,

01:35:48.220 but it's a beautifully written book.

01:35:49.540 It's very well written.

01:35:50.540 He is a very nice writer.

01:35:51.680 He speaks like he writes as well.

01:35:52.480 Oh, he does?

01:35:52.940 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:35:53.740 So there's one part in the book

01:35:55.380 where he talks about

01:35:56.120 picking up the New York Times.

01:35:57.940 And I'm sort of saying this

01:35:59.280 from memory,

01:35:59.780 from reading the book.

01:36:01.100 But broadly speaking,

01:36:02.620 what he says is

01:36:03.260 he picks up the New York Times

01:36:04.600 in, I don't know,

01:36:05.180 1992 or something

01:36:06.520 in New York or wherever.

01:36:08.780 And there's two stories

01:36:10.160 next on the same page.

01:36:11.900 The one is about

01:36:13.040 the ANC and Nelson Mandela

01:36:16.020 coming to save South Africa.

01:36:17.760 And then the other story

01:36:18.920 is a somewhat smaller story

01:36:20.280 about a guy being necklaced

01:36:22.700 in a local community,

01:36:24.140 a guy being viciously

01:36:25.260 attacked and killed.

01:36:26.660 And so he writes in that book

01:36:28.260 that what concerned him

01:36:30.740 was that the New York Times

01:36:32.000 was not able to connect

01:36:33.140 these two stories to each other.

01:36:34.940 They didn't recognize

01:36:36.040 that it's part of the same story.

01:36:37.640 It's presented

01:36:38.440 as two completely different stories.

01:36:39.960 I think they knew exactly.

01:36:40.960 I think it was very obvious.

01:36:42.060 So I was 25 in 1994

01:36:43.980 and it was very obvious to me.

01:36:47.280 And I, you know,

01:36:48.580 I don't think I have

01:36:49.140 any special powers of insight.

01:36:50.280 I think you would have to be

01:36:52.500 lying to yourself

01:36:54.380 or lying to your audience

01:36:55.440 not to acknowledge it.

01:36:57.180 And by the way,

01:36:58.420 it's 1994.

01:36:59.440 That's less than 20 years

01:37:00.460 after the Kamaruj took power

01:37:01.800 in Phnom Penh in Cambodia.

01:37:04.160 That was while

01:37:04.680 the Rwandan genocide

01:37:05.620 was happening.

01:37:06.540 It was the same year 0.60

01:37:07.500 as the Rwandan.

01:37:08.160 It was later that year.

01:37:09.240 It was the same month even.

01:37:11.400 The election at least.

01:37:13.260 Was in July?

01:37:15.060 April.

01:37:15.720 May.

01:37:16.300 May.

01:37:16.640 May.

01:37:16.920 Okay, right.

01:37:17.320 I remember them both very well

01:37:20.680 and I knew people

01:37:21.420 in both places at the time.

01:37:23.100 But I remember thinking,

01:37:24.080 obviously,

01:37:24.820 what happened in Kigali

01:37:25.540 is way worse

01:37:26.060 than anything that's happened

01:37:27.880 in South Africa,

01:37:29.600 thank God.

01:37:30.640 But bottom line,

01:37:32.580 when bad people

01:37:33.940 with bad motives

01:37:35.580 stated publicly

01:37:36.560 take power,

01:37:37.480 it's not good.

01:37:39.120 So, like,

01:37:39.400 I don't know.

01:37:39.820 That's not hard.

01:37:41.000 Well, there's a story

01:37:41.680 from Rwanda

01:37:42.700 that I keep mentioning

01:37:44.400 in the same time.

01:37:47.180 I think Linda Melvin

01:37:48.340 wrote a book called

01:37:49.200 Conspiracy to Murder,

01:37:50.380 which is about,

01:37:50.920 I think she lived in Rwanda

01:37:51.940 and she's a journalist

01:37:52.580 and she wrote about

01:37:53.380 what happened.

01:37:54.380 And she writes about

01:37:55.200 a meeting,

01:37:57.120 it must have been a party

01:37:58.100 in Washington

01:37:58.800 between American diplomats

01:38:01.840 and government officials

01:38:03.480 from Rwanda

01:38:04.260 in the run-up,

01:38:05.880 I think,

01:38:06.160 to the genocide.

01:38:07.680 And it was just

01:38:09.120 a big celebration

01:38:09.920 and everyone was happy

01:38:10.900 because Rwanda

01:38:11.620 was in the process

01:38:12.340 of becoming a democracy.

01:38:14.400 And then afterwards,

01:38:15.680 someone asked

01:38:16.380 one of the Americans,

01:38:17.820 but did you not know

01:38:18.940 what was happening

01:38:19.680 in Rwanda,

01:38:20.440 that they were on the verge

01:38:21.620 of committing genocide?

01:38:23.820 And he said,

01:38:24.640 the American diplomat said,

01:38:26.620 yes, we knew,

01:38:27.400 but we were so excited

01:38:28.460 about democracy

01:38:29.420 and Rwanda becoming

01:38:30.860 a democracy,

01:38:31.340 we didn't want to spoil

01:38:32.540 the mood

01:38:33.080 by confronting them.

01:38:34.000 Well, that sounds like

01:38:34.960 an American diplomat.

01:38:36.060 Yeah.

01:38:36.520 Wow.

01:38:37.120 That's...

01:38:37.680 So, that's very,

01:38:39.240 very alarming,

01:38:39.840 this idea of being

01:38:40.500 so excited

01:38:41.300 about a potential idea

01:38:43.220 that you are not

01:38:45.320 willing to confront

01:38:46.140 the realities

01:38:46.720 that's happening

01:38:48.420 or that could

01:38:48.960 potentially unfold.

01:38:50.680 Or being unwilling

01:38:51.780 to clearly define

01:38:52.920 your terms.

01:38:53.660 Like, what is democracy,

01:38:54.540 actually?

01:38:55.620 Yeah, well,

01:38:55.920 that's...

01:38:56.300 I think that's

01:38:56.880 an underlying...

01:38:57.960 It's an underlying

01:38:58.500 problem.

01:38:58.940 Yeah.

01:38:59.180 Right.

01:38:59.640 And it's a problem

01:39:00.400 that's only surfaced

01:39:01.140 in this country

01:39:01.800 in the last couple of years.

01:39:02.700 Can I give you an example

01:39:03.660 of that from the

01:39:04.460 South African perspective?

01:39:05.600 So, I mentioned

01:39:06.520 the name changes.

01:39:07.420 It's a big thing

01:39:07.960 in South Africa.

01:39:09.160 I'm sure that'll

01:39:09.940 fix your problems.

01:39:10.560 Will that bring

01:39:10.860 electricity and water back?

01:39:12.140 No, obviously.

01:39:13.920 So, there's a town

01:39:14.740 called Amanzamtoti,

01:39:16.060 which is on the

01:39:16.940 east coast

01:39:17.780 of South Africa.

01:39:18.880 The main street

01:39:20.180 was named Kingsway.

01:39:22.040 They changed it

01:39:22.920 to Andrew Zondu Street.

01:39:24.280 Now, Andrew Zondu

01:39:24.940 is really only known

01:39:26.340 for one thing.

01:39:26.960 He was a member

01:39:27.540 of the ANC Youth League

01:39:28.760 and I believe

01:39:29.660 it was 1985.

01:39:31.560 He planted a bomb

01:39:32.640 in a shopping center 0.73

01:39:33.560 and he killed, 0.62

01:39:34.900 I think,

01:39:35.160 five people

01:39:35.800 and injured 40.

01:39:36.760 All of the people

01:39:37.340 who were killed

01:39:37.740 were women and children.

01:39:39.480 That's the only thing

01:39:40.300 he did

01:39:40.600 and he was a member

01:39:41.320 of the ANC Youth League.

01:39:42.740 The ANC regards

01:39:43.560 that event

01:39:44.040 as something

01:39:45.260 that they claim

01:39:45.980 as an act

01:39:47.460 of heroism.

01:39:48.600 So, they named

01:39:49.320 the main street

01:39:50.120 after him.

01:39:51.580 And so, there are

01:39:51.940 people in that town

01:39:52.780 who drive to work

01:39:53.820 in a street

01:39:55.000 named after the person

01:39:56.400 who killed

01:39:56.900 their children.

01:39:58.840 And now,

01:39:59.260 they would say

01:40:00.060 that they need

01:40:00.840 to do these name changes

01:40:02.140 to make sure

01:40:02.880 that they get rid

01:40:03.540 of offensive names.

01:40:04.820 Offensive names

01:40:05.420 are Afrikaans names

01:40:06.480 or names linked

01:40:07.500 to South Africa's past.

01:40:09.740 And so, I was at,

01:40:10.500 again, a summit

01:40:11.540 where this was discussed

01:40:12.420 and I mentioned this.

01:40:14.620 I said,

01:40:15.000 so, you say

01:40:16.060 that in Pretoria,

01:40:17.560 Church Street

01:40:18.220 is an offensive name

01:40:19.320 and has to be changed.

01:40:20.920 In Amansam Toti,

01:40:22.060 you change Kingsway

01:40:23.320 to Andrew Zondu.

01:40:24.420 And I tell this story

01:40:25.140 and I said,

01:40:25.540 so, who decides

01:40:26.840 if it's offensive or not?

01:40:28.980 And the guy said,

01:40:29.660 oh, well, that's easy.

01:40:30.480 The majority decides.

01:40:32.580 And so,

01:40:33.020 but it's not even

01:40:33.680 the majority,

01:40:34.360 it's just the government.

01:40:35.420 The government decides

01:40:36.180 because they believe

01:40:36.920 they are the majority.

01:40:38.180 So, we have these

01:40:38.760 extremely offensive things

01:40:40.060 happening under the banner

01:40:41.200 of promoting.

01:40:41.360 Well, they're murderous.

01:40:42.480 I mean, again,

01:40:43.680 I just, yeah,

01:40:45.480 I think it's,

01:40:47.140 the picture is really,

01:40:48.400 really clear.

01:40:50.020 You know,

01:40:50.880 it couldn't be clearer.

01:40:52.380 Yeah.

01:40:53.060 Yeah, absolutely.

01:40:53.940 How do you,

01:40:54.600 you're staying.

01:40:55.960 Yeah, no, definitely.

01:40:57.280 Yeah, we'll stay.

01:40:58.560 You guys must love

01:40:59.340 your country.

01:41:00.340 Yeah, we really do.

01:41:01.300 I mean, in South Africa,

01:41:02.200 everyone who's been

01:41:02.920 to South Africa

01:41:03.540 would say it's an incredibly

01:41:04.700 beautiful country

01:41:05.480 and it truly is.

01:41:06.800 And it's a country

01:41:07.540 that unfortunately

01:41:08.160 has suffered so much

01:41:09.560 under this current government

01:41:10.880 and has suffered

01:41:12.360 so much in the past.

01:41:14.200 One of our Afrikaans philosophers,

01:41:16.780 a man named N.P.

01:41:17.620 Van Weycklo

01:41:18.240 wrote, I think,

01:41:19.060 in the 1930s

01:41:20.020 or something

01:41:20.340 that you love a people

01:41:22.440 not so much

01:41:23.520 for their accomplishments

01:41:24.640 as for the hardships

01:41:26.380 that they've had to endure.

01:41:27.940 That's right.

01:41:28.260 And I think that's true

01:41:29.920 for South Africa.

01:41:30.740 South Africa has endured 0.98

01:41:31.760 many hardships

01:41:32.420 and also for our people,

01:41:33.820 the Afrikaner people,

01:41:34.680 as with many other peoples

01:41:35.640 all over the world,

01:41:36.900 have endured many hardships.

01:41:38.900 And it's through these hardships

01:41:40.260 and maintaining

01:41:41.540 our sense of identity

01:41:43.020 that we really love

01:41:45.280 our history

01:41:45.820 and our tradition

01:41:46.480 and our culture.

01:41:46.900 Well, you came in the first place

01:41:48.020 because you were

01:41:48.580 an oppressed minority, correct?

01:41:49.840 Yep.

01:41:50.180 I know the French did. 0.59

01:41:51.480 Yes, the French Huguenots.

01:41:52.660 Yes.

01:41:53.220 Yes.

01:41:53.740 It was the fleeing

01:41:54.540 the religious wars in Europe.

01:41:55.640 Of course.

01:41:56.140 They were getting killed.

01:41:56.880 Yes, in big numbers.

01:41:58.420 Yeah, yeah.

01:41:59.140 That's part of our origin story,

01:42:02.360 how we came to be.

01:42:02.820 Well, it's also factually true.

01:42:04.600 Yeah, absolutely.

01:42:04.900 It's part of history.

01:42:05.860 I mean, it's not a myth.

01:42:06.560 It's real.

01:42:07.140 Yes, yes, absolutely.

01:42:08.300 Yeah.

01:42:08.820 So, do you think,

01:42:11.600 I don't know what the resolution

01:42:12.700 will be,

01:42:13.760 and I'm certainly rooting

01:42:14.820 for all South Africans

01:42:16.240 of every color.

01:42:17.800 But, fervently.

01:42:19.320 But, I gotta think

01:42:21.500 that being able to say

01:42:22.820 certain obvious truths

01:42:24.140 out loud helps.

01:42:26.400 Yes.

01:42:26.880 Do you think?

01:42:28.920 Well, the problem is

01:42:30.180 if you do that,

01:42:30.960 you really,

01:42:31.620 you get bashed

01:42:32.580 quite aggressively.

01:42:34.460 Yeah, but like,

01:42:35.380 compared to what?

01:42:36.460 Yeah.

01:42:36.980 No.

01:42:37.200 They just said,

01:42:37.660 we're taking your land 0.90

01:42:38.300 because your skin color is so white. 0.95

01:42:39.040 Well, the alternative is worse. 0.72

01:42:40.380 It's just living the lie.

01:42:42.040 It's much worse

01:42:43.060 than getting bashed

01:42:44.080 for telling the truth.

01:42:45.740 Can I tell you

01:42:46.400 a quick story

01:42:48.320 or a quick reference

01:42:49.000 about courage?

01:42:49.700 Of course.

01:42:50.020 So, it's somewhat philosophical,

01:42:52.700 but I'll make it practical.

01:42:53.900 So, Odysseus is on his way back

01:42:55.360 from the Trojan War.

01:42:57.440 And he has all these hardships

01:42:59.280 and he's trying to get home.

01:43:01.120 And he gets told

01:43:02.140 that the only way

01:43:02.960 for him to get home

01:43:03.800 is to face

01:43:05.860 Scylla and Charybdis.

01:43:07.320 Scylla is this

01:43:08.220 six-headed sea monster

01:43:09.860 and Charybdis

01:43:11.220 is a monstrous whirlpool

01:43:12.580 that swallows

01:43:13.320 ships whole.

01:43:14.860 And the only way

01:43:15.500 for him to get home

01:43:16.260 is he has to navigate

01:43:17.140 through these two monsters,

01:43:19.240 which he eventually does.

01:43:20.920 He decides

01:43:21.540 it's better for him

01:43:22.480 to move

01:43:22.960 to sail his ship

01:43:24.140 closer to Scylla,

01:43:25.560 the sea monster,

01:43:26.640 than the whirlpool.

01:43:28.020 And a whole lot

01:43:28.520 of his people die, 0.97

01:43:29.740 but he reaches

01:43:30.400 his destination.

01:43:31.940 And so, Aristotle

01:43:32.600 writes about this

01:43:33.500 in the Nicomachean Ethics

01:43:35.120 when he talks about

01:43:36.380 the golden mean.

01:43:37.100 And he says,

01:43:37.520 any virtue

01:43:38.120 is about finding

01:43:39.560 the balance

01:43:40.140 between having excess of it

01:43:42.180 and having a deficiency of it.

01:43:43.680 And so,

01:43:44.380 this goes to courage.

01:43:45.520 And courage is a good example.

01:43:46.640 If you have excess courage,

01:43:48.240 you become reckless.

01:43:49.240 Yes.

01:43:49.640 And if you have a deficiency, 1.00

01:43:50.980 then you're a coward. 1.00

01:43:52.540 And so, 0.99

01:43:53.180 the point of having courage

01:43:54.960 is finding the balance

01:43:56.180 between cowardice

01:43:57.280 and recklessness.

01:43:58.740 And what's great

01:43:59.620 about the story

01:44:00.280 of Odysseus

01:44:01.000 is Odysseus

01:44:02.880 discovers

01:44:03.400 that he cannot

01:44:04.160 simply go

01:44:05.060 exactly in the middle

01:44:06.260 between the two.

01:44:07.540 He has to be closer

01:44:08.700 to the one threat

01:44:09.680 than to the other.

01:44:10.760 Because if he goes

01:44:11.420 too close

01:44:11.900 to the whirlpool,

01:44:12.700 these old ship 0.98

01:44:13.580 gets swallowed up.

01:44:15.500 And so,

01:44:15.780 the point here

01:44:16.260 and Aristotle

01:44:16.780 says this as well,

01:44:17.620 it's not to find

01:44:18.260 the exact middle point.

01:44:19.340 It's to find

01:44:19.820 the appropriate balance

01:44:21.060 between the two extremes.

01:44:22.840 And so,

01:44:23.060 the one extreme

01:44:23.580 is recklessness

01:44:24.180 and the other extreme

01:44:25.020 is cowardice.

01:44:26.040 And I honestly think

01:44:27.180 in the situation

01:44:28.500 we are in,

01:44:30.080 it's better

01:44:30.860 to err

01:44:31.440 on the side

01:44:32.020 of being too bold

01:44:33.160 than to err

01:44:34.080 on the side

01:44:34.640 of having

01:44:35.040 not enough courage

01:44:36.120 or trying

01:44:37.260 to find

01:44:38.160 some form

01:44:38.680 of solution

01:44:39.180 through appeasement.

01:44:40.140 And so,

01:44:41.240 we make mistakes

01:44:41.900 in the process

01:44:42.440 and sometimes

01:44:43.360 you say something wrong

01:44:44.420 or you do something wrong.

01:44:45.640 But I'm very much convinced

01:44:47.700 that if we're on this course

01:44:50.840 and we try to pursue

01:44:51.900 what we are trying

01:44:52.640 to pursue,

01:44:53.820 rather err on the side

01:44:54.960 of having too much boldness

01:44:56.140 and too much courage

01:44:57.060 and facing the consequences,

01:44:58.980 then having to face

01:44:59.800 the consequences

01:45:00.420 of having a lack

01:45:01.840 of courage.

01:45:03.080 I love that.

01:45:04.680 I gotta say,

01:45:05.420 in a lifetime of travel,

01:45:06.620 if I could just generalize,

01:45:07.820 the two most impressive groups

01:45:10.880 I meet everywhere,

01:45:13.260 my whole life,

01:45:13.980 around the world,

01:45:15.140 both groups living in exile

01:45:16.700 in large numbers

01:45:17.540 are the South Africans

01:45:18.440 and the Lebanese.

01:45:19.840 Oh, really?

01:45:20.340 Yes, yes.

01:45:21.220 I've never met one

01:45:22.120 of either group

01:45:22.540 I didn't like

01:45:23.100 and didn't admire.

01:45:23.880 I don't think I've met one

01:45:24.820 in either group

01:45:25.660 and the thing

01:45:26.380 that they have in common

01:45:27.300 is they live in beautiful,

01:45:28.980 volatile countries

01:45:29.600 that they really love

01:45:30.540 but they're very hard

01:45:31.740 to live in.

01:45:32.900 Yes.

01:45:33.080 And so,

01:45:33.740 they're caught

01:45:34.520 between that tension,

01:45:36.200 you know,

01:45:36.740 cowardice and recklessness

01:45:37.700 and they're making

01:45:38.320 that calculation

01:45:38.860 every single day

01:45:39.620 and they're living

01:45:40.620 so thoughtfully

01:45:41.400 and so purposefully

01:45:42.760 and in such a,

01:45:44.640 I don't know,

01:45:45.240 just an admirable,

01:45:46.920 noble way.

01:45:47.800 I've just noticed that.

01:45:48.980 Oh, I appreciate

01:45:50.100 the comment.

01:45:51.900 It's just an observation

01:45:53.620 but I've thought

01:45:54.540 about it many times.

01:45:55.560 Last question,

01:45:56.500 where can people

01:45:58.740 who have made it

01:45:59.260 this far into the interview

01:46:00.240 and are interested

01:46:01.160 in what's happening

01:46:03.680 in your country

01:46:04.340 and happening

01:46:05.340 to your group,

01:46:07.700 how can they follow it?

01:46:09.180 How can they be helpful?

01:46:11.440 How can they learn more

01:46:12.260 and be supportive?

01:46:13.320 Well,

01:46:14.460 I think there are many ways.

01:46:15.680 The one way 0.93

01:46:16.240 is just to follow

01:46:17.480 what's happening

01:46:18.600 in South Africa

01:46:19.060 and speak about it

01:46:20.120 because we've had

01:46:21.200 this incredible

01:46:22.180 barrage

01:46:23.000 of communications

01:46:24.700 coming just telling us

01:46:25.740 again how wrong we are.

01:46:26.940 You know,

01:46:27.360 this narrative

01:46:27.960 is this zeitgeist

01:46:29.320 in a certain sense.

01:46:30.240 It's really like

01:46:31.540 a monster

01:46:32.060 that you have to fight.

01:46:33.540 This, you know,

01:46:34.040 that you're not allowed

01:46:34.720 to say,

01:46:35.280 speak certain truths

01:46:36.180 even though the truths

01:46:36.940 are self-evident.

01:46:38.540 So, I think one thing

01:46:39.540 is if people just

01:46:40.200 can help spread the message,

01:46:41.660 help take some interest

01:46:42.700 in South Africa

01:46:43.220 because what's happening

01:46:44.060 in South Africa

01:46:44.540 is also of interest

01:46:45.460 to the rest of the world.

01:46:46.460 I think it is.

01:46:46.900 In many ways,

01:46:47.600 South Africa is the future

01:46:48.480 of the Western world.

01:46:49.440 I know.

01:46:50.200 In terms of the problem

01:46:51.260 and the solution,

01:46:52.140 I think.

01:46:53.240 So, that's one.

01:46:54.260 And then the other is

01:46:54.880 there really are

01:46:55.580 some institutions

01:46:56.320 in South Africa

01:46:57.100 who are really focused

01:46:59.420 on building

01:47:00.200 community-based solutions.

01:47:01.760 And I think if people

01:47:02.680 can identify

01:47:04.340 these institutions

01:47:05.200 and support

01:47:06.040 these institutions,

01:47:07.180 it really would help.

01:47:08.920 And I think in terms

01:47:09.760 of the U.S. government,

01:47:11.000 if the U.S. government

01:47:12.020 is willing to do something

01:47:13.600 as it seems that they are,

01:47:15.480 I think the most important

01:47:16.680 thing that they could do

01:47:17.700 is a combination

01:47:18.720 of pressuring

01:47:19.780 the South African government

01:47:20.860 away from these

01:47:22.560 destructive policies

01:47:23.500 but also supporting

01:47:25.180 communities,

01:47:26.240 local communities

01:47:26.980 or minority communities

01:47:28.120 or nations,

01:47:29.020 you should say,

01:47:29.540 who are committed

01:47:31.220 to finding

01:47:31.780 some form of

01:47:32.460 self-determination.

01:47:34.360 Amen.

01:47:34.740 Well, Godspeed.

01:47:36.260 Thank you very much.

01:47:37.260 I hope to see you again.

01:47:37.460 I hope you'll come back.

01:47:38.940 Oh, thank you.

01:47:39.520 I hope so too.

01:47:40.420 And then I have to thank you

01:47:41.380 not just for this interview

01:47:42.740 but also for the focus

01:47:44.420 you've been putting

01:47:45.100 on South Africa

01:47:45.720 in the past.

01:47:46.660 Well, it's just so interesting

01:47:48.140 and it reveals so much

01:47:48.920 about us.

01:47:49.520 I'm American

01:47:50.080 and it reveals a lot

01:47:50.960 about our leadership class

01:47:52.040 and I think it's important

01:47:53.300 to say it.

01:47:54.080 So, thank you.

01:47:54.860 Well, thank you very much.

01:47:59.540 We want to thank you

01:48:01.080 for watching us

01:48:01.720 on Spotify,

01:48:02.600 a company that we use

01:48:03.560 every day.

01:48:04.220 We know the people

01:48:04.620 who run it,

01:48:05.120 good people.

01:48:06.200 While you're here,

01:48:07.200 do us a favor,

01:48:07.960 hit follow

01:48:08.860 and tap the bell

01:48:10.320 so you never miss an episode.

01:48:12.200 We have real conversations,

01:48:13.600 news,

01:48:13.940 things that actually matter,

01:48:15.320 telling the truth always.

01:48:16.540 You will not miss it

01:48:17.500 if you follow us

01:48:18.900 on Spotify

01:48:19.380 and hit the bell.

01:48:20.320 We appreciate it.

01:48:20.880 Thanks for watching.

01:48:21.420 We'll see you next time.

The Tucker Carlson Show - March 03, 2025

Ernst Roets： Attacks on Whites in South Africa, Attempts to Hide It, and Trump’s Plan to End It

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript