The Tucker Carlson Show - Jeffrey Sachs： The Untold History of the Cold War, CIA Coups Around the World, and COVID’s Origin

00:00:00.000 welcome to tucker carlson show it's become pretty clear that the mainstream media are

00:00:13.840 dying they can't die quickly enough and there's a reason they're dying because they lie they lied

00:00:19.520 so much it killed them we're not doing that tucker carlson.com we promise to bring you the

00:00:24.240 most honest content the most honest interviews we can without fear or favor here's the latest

00:00:30.800 do you drink coffee all the time non-stop me too non-stop nine or ten cups a day yeah it's good

00:00:36.880 i like coffee and i drink it straight until minutes before bed i do too oh do you yeah

00:00:42.960 and we will never drink as much as voltaire drink yeah yeah oh is that right like 40 cups yeah oh

00:00:47.200 is that right oh yeah and it worked okay so the the one thing that we know we heard about the

00:00:57.440 movement of russian troops into eastern ukraine in february of 2022 was it was unprovoked here's

00:01:04.320 here's a selection of what we know about that the russian military has begun a brutal assault

00:01:09.120 on the people of ukraine without provocation without justification without necessity this

00:01:16.560 is a premeditated attack russia's unprovoked and cruel invasion has galvanized countries from around 0.82

00:01:23.120 the world russia's unprovoked and unjustified attack on ukraine russia conducted an unprovoked war of

00:01:29.920 aggression against ukraine was unprovoked russian war of aggression has got to be met with strength

00:01:38.560 vladimir putin decided unprovoked to start this war so was it unprovoked well we did hear that a lot of

00:01:50.480 times i i actually asked a research assistant of mine to count how many times we heard that in the

00:01:57.520 new york times in that first year from february 2022 to february 2023 in their opinion comms was

00:02:05.040 26 times unprovoked of course things aren't unprovoked it's almost a brand name it's it's the

00:02:14.000 lazy person's uh dodge for uh actually trying to think through what's going on yes and it's very

00:02:21.840 dangerous because it's uh it's wrong it gets the whole story completely wrong and it misunderstands

00:02:29.360 the trap that we set for ourselves as the united states to push ukraine deeper and deeper and deeper 1.00

00:02:34.880 into this hopeless mess that they're in right now so in what sense was it provoked like what started

00:02:40.880 this basically it started very simply which is that the united states government let's not call it the

00:02:49.280 u.s people they had nothing to do with this but the u.s government said we're going to put ukraine

00:02:55.760 on our side and we're going to go right up to that 2 100 kilometer border with russian we're going to

00:03:03.120 put our troops and nato and maybe missiles whatever we want because we are the sole superpower of the

00:03:09.920 world and we do what we want and uh it it goes back actually uh a long way it goes back 170 years

00:03:18.320 the brits had this idea first uh surround russia in the black sea region and russia's not a great power

00:03:26.800 anymore and that was uh lord palmerston's idea in the crimean war 1853 and 1856 and the brits taught us

00:03:36.560 what we know about empire uh and they basically taught us the idea you know russia it needs an outlet it

00:03:43.680 needs an outlet to the middle east it needs an outlet to the mediterranean you surround russia in the black 0.95

00:03:49.760 sea uh you have rendered russia a second or third rate country and uh big brzezinski uh one of our

00:04:00.240 lead geostrategists of uh the current era wrote in 1997 let's do this uh let's make sure that we

00:04:11.680 basically surround russia in in the black sea region they got this idea that we'll expand nato

00:04:18.800 so that every country in the black sea around russia is a nato country right now uh well back 0.55

00:04:27.440 then turkey was a nato country but we said okay we'll get romania and bulgaria and we'll get ukraine

00:04:35.600 and we'll get georgia now georgia you know not not our georgia atlanta georgia georgia of the black

00:04:42.000 sea we used to call it soviet georgia yes soviet georgia if you want to call it that home of stalin

00:04:46.880 it it it it's not nato north atlantic it's it's way out there on the eastern edge of of the black sea

00:04:54.800 region people can look at a map but we said yeah we'll make georgia part of nato too

00:05:00.160 and the reason was very clear and as big was very explicit about it that this is our way to

00:05:07.360 basically dominate eurasia if we can dominate the black sea region then russia's nothing if we

00:05:14.640 make russia nothing then we can basically control eurasia meaning all the way from europe to central 0.91

00:05:22.480 asia and through our influence in east asia do the same thing and that's american unipolarity

00:05:29.840 we run the world we are the hegemon we are the sole superpower we are unchallenged so that's the

00:05:35.600 idea it's but why would you want that why would the brits want that why does the u.s state department

00:05:42.720 want that what what about russia which is not actually much of an expansionist power is so

00:05:49.840 threatening like it's it's it's uh it's not about russia it's about the u.s it's it's about britain

00:05:55.280 before that um i think it's a little bit like uh that old game of risk i don't know if you played

00:06:02.080 that as a kid but you the idea was have your piece on every place in the world you know that that was

00:06:07.200 the game and you read the american strategists whether it's big brzezinski although he's a very

00:06:14.240 moderate or the neocons who have run u.s foreign policy for the last 30 years u.s uh the the neocons

00:06:22.000 are very explicit the u.s must be the unchallenged superpower in every place in the world in every

00:06:30.720 region we must dominate it's quite a it's quite a load for us american people what they say is we

00:06:38.800 are going to be the constabulary duty holder what fancy word for saying we'll be the world's

00:06:46.400 policemen they they say it explicitly they say that's lots of wars we have to be ready for all

00:06:51.920 these wars to my mind it's a little crazy but their idea was after the end of the soviet union

00:06:59.920 well now we run the world and to come back to russia the idea was well russia's weak it's down

00:07:09.520 it's we're the sole superpower they're they're on on their back or on their knees whatever it is

00:07:15.920 and now we can move nato where we want and we can surround them and the russians said um please

00:07:22.080 don't do that don't don't bring your troops your weapons your missiles right up to our border it's not

00:07:29.360 a good idea and the u.s i was around in those years involved in in russia and in central europe the u.s

00:07:38.800 was uh we don't hear you we don't hear you we do what we want they kept pushing inside the u.s

00:07:46.160 government in the 1990s when this debate was going should nato expand some people said yeah but

00:07:53.360 we told gorbachev and we told yeltsin we weren't going to expand at all no come on soviet union's done

00:08:00.720 we can do what we want we're the sole superpower clinton bought into that that was madeline

00:08:05.360 albright's line uh nato enlargement started and our most sophisticated

00:08:14.880 diplomats we used to have diplomats at the time we don't have them anymore but we used

00:08:18.960 to have diplomats like george kennan said this is the greatest mistake we could possibly make

00:08:25.440 we had a defense secretary bill perry who was clinton's defense secretary who agonized

00:08:31.040 god i should resign over this this is terrible what's going on but he was outmaneuvered

00:08:35.680 diplomatically by richard holbrook and by madeline albright and clinton never thought through anything

00:08:42.880 systematically in my opinion and uh so they decided okay hungry poland czech republic first round

00:08:49.600 and then brzynski in a 1997 article in foreign affairs magazine which is kind of the bellwether of yes

00:08:59.040 foreign policy wrote a strategy for eurasia where he laid out exactly the timeline for this u.s expansion

00:09:10.000 of power and he said late 1990s we'll take in central europe hungary poland czech republic by the early 2000s

00:09:19.680 we'll take in the baltic states now that's get close to russia by 2005 to 2010 we'll invite ukraine

00:09:28.400 to become part of nato so this wasn't some flippant thing this was a long-term plan and it was based on

00:09:35.600 a long-term geo strategy now the russians are saying are you kidding we wanted peace we we ended the cold

00:09:45.440 war ii you didn't just defeat us we said no more we disbanded the warsaw pact we wanted peace we wanted

00:09:54.400 cooperation you call it victory we we just wanted to cooperate i know that for a fact because i was

00:10:00.640 there in those years what gorbachev wanted what yeltsin wanted they didn't want war with the united

00:10:06.320 states nor were they saying we're defeated they were saying we just want to cooperate we want to stop the

00:10:11.680 cold war we want to become part of a world economy we want to be a normal economy we want to be normal

00:10:17.840 society connected with you connected with europe connected with asia and the u.s said we get it we

00:10:23.440 get it we won you do everything we say and we determine how the pieces are going to go so in

00:10:29.920 the early 2000s putin comes in first uh first business for putin was good cooperation with europe

00:10:39.040 you go back to the early 2000s again i know the people i watch closely i was a participant in some

00:10:45.760 of it putin was completely pro-europe yes and pro-us by the way i know and and we don't want to talk

00:10:54.400 about this we don't want to admit it because we don't want anything other than unprovoked so everything

00:11:01.120 is phony what we say everything is a lie but just to say the u.s kept doing unilateral things that were

00:11:11.200 really outrageous in 2000 in 1999 we bombed belgrade for 78 days bad move absolutely we bombed

00:11:22.080 a capital of europe for 78 days what was looking back what was the point of that the the point of

00:11:28.800 that was to break serbia into create a new state kosovo where we have the largest nato military base

00:11:39.760 in southeast europe we put bond steel base there because we wanted a base in southeastern europe

00:11:47.360 and again you look at the neocons it's nice of them they actually describe all of this in various

00:11:53.840 documents you have to make the links but in a document called uh uh rebuilding america's defenses

00:12:01.440 in the year 2000 they say the balkans is a new strategic area for the u.s so we have to move

00:12:09.040 large troops to the balkans because their idea is literally the game of risk not just you need good

00:12:15.920 relations or peace we need our pieces on the board we need military bases with the uh with the advanced

00:12:24.560 positioning of our military everywhere in the world so they wanted a big base in uh in southeastern

00:12:30.720 europe they didn't like serbia serbia was close to russia anyway we're the sole superpower we do what

00:12:36.720 we want so uh they divided the country uh which they now claim you never do you know you never change

00:12:44.720 borders we broke apart serbia established by our declaration a new country kosovo we put a huge

00:12:52.480 nato base there and that was the goal so that was 1999 wasn't to save the oppressed muslim population

00:12:58.400 excuse me it wasn't to save the oppressed muslim population it was uh very very much to uh save the

00:13:05.360 military industrial complex to have a nice location in southeastern europe it killed all those people wreck

00:13:10.400 the city you know it was a little bit uh sad but uh we do lots of sad things and lots of destructive

00:13:18.800 things lots of wars we're the country of perpetual war we don't look back we're not even supposed to

00:13:24.000 talk about this because this was unprovoked remember so in 2002 the u.s unilaterally pulled out of the

00:13:30.800 anti-ballistic missile treaty unilaterally well that was one of the stabilizers of the relationship with

00:13:37.760 russia and it was one of the stabilizers of the the global nuclear situation which is absolutely 0.93

00:13:45.120 dangerous and the u.s unilaterally started putting aegis missiles into first poland then romania

00:13:53.360 and the russians are saying wait a minute what do we know you're putting in this you're a few minutes

00:13:58.400 from moscow this is completely destabilizing do you think you might want to talk to us so then comes 2004

00:14:06.400 seven more countries in nato latvia lithuania estonia romania bulgaria slovakia and slovenia

00:14:14.240 now starting filling in the black sea romania and bulgaria suddenly they're now north atlantic

00:14:21.120 countries but it's all part of this design all spelled out all quite explicit were surrounding

00:14:27.840 russia in 2007 president putin gave a very clear speech at the munich security conference

00:14:37.840 very powerful very correct very frustrated where he said uh gentlemen uh you told us in 1990 nato would

00:14:50.160 never enlarge that was the promise made to president gorbachev and it was the promise made to president

00:14:56.640 yeltsin and you cheated and you repeatedly cheated and you don't even admit that you said this but it's all

00:15:05.200 plainly documented by the way and as you know in a thousand archival uh sites so it's easy to

00:15:11.600 to verify all of this james baker the third our secretary of state said that nato would not move

00:15:17.920 one inch eastward and it wasn't a flippant statement it was a statement repeated and repeated and repeated

00:15:25.600 hans dentrich hans dietrich denser the uh foreign minister of germany same story the germans wanted

00:15:33.280 reunification korbachev said we'll support that but we don't want that to come at our expense no no it

00:15:42.400 won't come at your expense nato won't move one inch eastward mr president repeated so many times in many

00:15:51.280 documents many statements by the nato secretary general by the us secretary of state by the german

00:15:58.320 chancellor now of course all denied by our foreign policy blob because we're not supposed to remember

00:16:05.920 anything remember this was all unprovoked so back to 2007 putin gives this speech and he says stop

00:16:13.600 don't even think about ukraine this is our 2 100 kilometer border this is absolutely part of the

00:16:25.680 integrated economy of this region don't even think about it now i know from insiders from

00:16:34.080 all the diplomatic work that i do that europe was saying to the us european leaders don't think about

00:16:42.240 ukraine please you know this is not a good idea just stop we know uh from our current cia director bill

00:16:52.000 burns uh that he wrote a very eloquent uh impassioned uh articulate clear secret as you

00:17:03.440 usual memo uh which we only got to see because uh wikileaks showed to the american people what

00:17:10.800 maybe we would like to know once in a while but yeah we're never like what our government's doing

00:17:14.800 what they're doing and how they're putting us at nuclear risk and other things okay this one did get

00:17:20.160 out and it's called niet means niet no means no and what what bill burns very uh perceptively articulately

00:17:29.840 conveys to condoleezza rice and back to the white house in 2008 is ukraine is really a red line don't

00:17:39.520 do it it's not just putin it's not just putin's government it's the entire political class of russia

00:17:47.440 and just to help all of us as we think about it it is exactly as if mexico said

00:17:55.840 we think it would be great to have chinese military bases on the rio grande we can't see

00:18:02.000 why the u.s would have any problem with that of course we would go completely insane but and we

00:18:08.800 should and we should of course it's the whole idea is so absurdly dangerous and reckless that you you

00:18:17.840 can't even imagine grown-ups doing this so what happens is the what if for what i'm told by european

00:18:26.320 leaders uh and by long detailed discussion bush jr says to them no no no it's okay don't don't uh

00:18:37.600 don't worry i hear you about ukraine uh and then he goes off for the christmas holidays and comes back

00:18:46.320 whether it's cheney whether it's bush whatever it is says um yeah uh nato's going to enlarge to ukraine

00:18:53.520 and the europeans are shocked pissed uh what are you doing you may have come to the obvious

00:18:59.840 conclusion that the real debate is not between republican and democrat or socialist and capitalists

00:19:05.920 right left the real battles between people who are lying on purpose and people who are trying to

00:19:12.560 tell you the truth it's between good and evil it's between honesty and falsehood and we hope we are on

00:19:19.360 the former side that's why we created this network the tucker carlson network and we invite you to

00:19:24.480 subscribe to it you go to tucker carlson.com slash podcast our entire archive is there a lot of behind

00:19:30.400 the scenes footage of what actually happens in this barn uh when only an iphone is running tucker carlson

00:19:36.240 dot com slash podcast you will not regret it so bush did not make that decision

00:19:45.440 bush did not make the decision right i mean it's if i'm hearing what i'm saying yeah no bush did make

00:19:51.840 the decision okay but you know what i'm saying is he had told the europeans i hear you i'm not going

00:19:56.560 to do it but it sounds like he was influenced by the people around him oh no that could be yeah i

00:20:02.080 don't know whether it was cia or whether someone explained to him or whether uh someone said george

00:20:08.160 mr president uh this is a long-standing project you know it's not something for a european country to

00:20:14.960 object to i don't know what happened there but what i do know is that he came back and told the european

00:20:20.480 leaders no we're we're doing it they said no no no no we're not doing it and then they had the nato

00:20:26.400 summit in bucharest and this was 2008 and the europeans uh chancellor merkel uh french president

00:20:37.040 all of them george don't do this don't do this this is extraordinarily dangerous this is really

00:20:43.360 provocative we don't really need or want nato right up to the russian border bush pushed pushed pushed

00:20:52.560 this is a u.s alliance fundamentally and they made the commitment ukraine will become a member of nato

00:21:00.960 the dodge was okay we won't give them exactly the roadmap right now but ukraine will become a member

00:21:07.840 of nato because in those days the u.s and russia met in a nato partnership even then putin was there

00:21:17.600 the next day in bucharest saying don't do this this is completely reckless essentially this is our

00:21:27.600 fundamental red line do not do this the u.s can't hear any of this this is our biggest problem of all

00:21:37.120 because the neocons who have run the show for 30 years believe the u.s can do whatever it wants this

00:21:45.600 is the most fundamental point to understand about u.s foreign policy they're wrong they keep screwing

00:21:51.520 up they keep getting us into trillion dollar plus wars they keep killing a lot of people but their

00:21:57.200 basic belief is the u.s is the only superpower it's the unipolar power and we can do what we want so they

00:22:04.800 could not hear putin even that moment they couldn't hear the rest of the europeans and by the way they

00:22:10.400 said georgia would become part of nato again the only way to understand that is in this long-standing

00:22:18.560 palmerston brzynski yes theory this isn't just haphazard oh why don't we take georgia this is a plan

00:22:26.000 okay the russians understand every single step of this so another thing goes awry what goes awry the ukrainians

00:22:35.680 don't want nato enlargement the ukrainians don't want it they're against it the public opinion said

00:22:41.360 no this is very dangerous neutrality it's safer we're in between east and west we don't want this

00:22:46.640 so they elect victor yanukovych yes a president that says we'll just be neutral and that's absolutely

00:22:56.400 the u.s is oh what the hell is this ukraine they don't have any choice either so yanukovych becomes

00:23:06.480 the enemy of the neocons obviously so they start working of course the way that the u.s does we got

00:23:13.600 to get rid of this guy uh maybe we'll elect his opponent afterwards maybe we'll catch him in a crisis and so

00:23:20.880 forth and indeed at the end of 2013 the u.s absolutely stokes a crisis that becomes an

00:23:29.680 insurrection and then becomes a coup and i know again from first-hand experience the u.s was

00:23:36.080 profoundly implicated in that but you can see our senators standing up in the crowd like if chinese 1.00

00:23:42.800 officials came to january 6th and said yes yes go you know can how would we like it if uh if chinese

00:23:50.080 leaders came and said yeah we we were with you a hundred percent american senators standing up

00:23:58.160 in kiev saying to the demonstrators we're with you a hundred percent victoria newland famously

00:24:05.760 passing around the cookies but it was much much more than the cookies i can tell you and so the u.s

00:24:12.160 conspired with a ukrainian right to overthrow yanukovych and there was a violent overthrow

00:24:20.000 in the third week of february of 2014 that's when this war started this war didn't even start in 2022

00:24:29.120 it started in 2014 that was the outbreak of the war was a violent coup that overthrew a ukrainian

00:24:36.400 president that wanted neutrality when he was violently overthrown and his security people told him

00:24:43.440 you're gonna get killed and so he flew to kharkiv and then flew onward to russia that day the u.s

00:24:51.920 immediately in a nanosecond recognized the new government this is a coup this is how the cia

00:24:57.520 does its regime change operations so this is when the war starts putin's understanding completely

00:25:07.760 correct in this moment was i'm not letting nato take my naval fleet and my naval base in crimea are you

00:25:18.960 kidding the russian naval base in the black sea which was the object of the crimean war and yes in

00:25:26.880 its way is the object of this war in savastopol has been there since 1783 and now putin's saying

00:25:36.240 oh nato's gonna walk in hell no and so they organize this referendum of the this is a russian

00:25:44.560 region and there's an overwhelming support we'll stay with russia thank you not with this new post

00:25:49.600 coup government an outbreak uh it breaks out in the eastern provinces which are the ethnic russian

00:25:57.520 provinces uh in the donbas in the donbas in lugansk and donetsk and there's a lot of violence so the war

00:26:06.560 starts in 2014 so saying something's unprovoked in 2022 is a little bizarre for anyone that actually

00:26:13.280 reads a normal newspaper to begin with but in any event the war starts then and within a year the

00:26:20.320 russians are saying very wisely we actually don't want this war we don't want to own ukraine we don't 0.88

00:26:29.360 want problems on our border we would like peace based on respect for the ethnic russians in the east

00:26:40.480 and political autonomy because you the coup government tried to close down all russian language

00:26:49.280 culture and rights of these people after having made a violent coup so we don't accept that so what

00:26:57.120 came out of that was two agreements called the minsk one and the minsk two agreements the minsk two

00:27:03.600 agreement was backed by the un security council and it said that we'll make peace based on autonomy

00:27:12.240 of the donbas region now very interesting the russians were not saying that's ours we want that

00:27:19.600 all the things that are claimed every day that putin just wants to recreate you know he thinks he's peter

00:27:26.000 the great he wants to recreate the russian empire he wants to grab territory nothing like that the

00:27:31.600 opposite we don't want the territory we actually just want autonomy based on an agreement reached

00:27:39.280 with the ukrainian government so what was the u.s attitude towards that u.s government attitude u.s

00:27:45.120 government attitude was to say to the ukrainians don't worry about it come on don't worry about it

00:27:51.760 you keep your central state we don't want to see ukraine weakened at all we just wanted nato

00:27:57.440 in a unified ukraine don't go for decentralization we tell them to blow off the very treaty that

00:28:04.560 they've signed then we accuse russia of not having diplomacy by the way which is you know par for the

00:28:10.560 course oh you can't trust them we blow off every single agreement we blow off not moving one inch

00:28:17.360 eastward we blow off the anti-ballistic missile treaty uh we uh have so many uh nato led wars of

00:28:26.480 choice in between i didn't even mention in syria cia attempt to overthrow assad in libya and so forth

00:28:35.120 and we blow off the minsk agreements and actually angela merkel explained in a rather shockingly frank

00:28:43.840 interview that she gave last year when asked why germany didn't help to enforce the minsk agreement

00:28:53.120 because germany and france were the guarantors of the minsk agreement under something called

00:28:57.920 the normandy process she said well we just thought this was to give some time to the ukrainians to

00:29:06.160 build up their strength in other words they were guarantors of something in a phony way and the u.s was

00:29:12.800 uh uh absolutely lying about this and i know senior ukrainians who were in government and who were

00:29:22.080 around the government who said to me jeff we're not gonna do that anyway that was at gunpoint we don't

00:29:28.240 have to agree with that so all that diplomacy was blown off the war continued the u.s pumped in arms built

00:29:38.400 up armaments was building up what would be the biggest army of europe actually uh a huge army

00:29:45.760 that russia was watching what are you doing you know you're not honoring minsk you're building up this

00:29:51.360 huge ukrainian army paid for by nato paid for by the united states basically yes and uh in 2021

00:30:02.240 putin met with biden and then after the meeting he put on the table a draft russia u.s security

00:30:12.080 agreement put it on the table on december 15th 2021 it's worth reading very plausible document i don't

00:30:20.080 agree with some of it it's it's a negotiable document something you would negotiate

00:30:26.640 i thought the core of it was stop the nato enlargement

00:30:31.440 and uh i called the white house myself at that point and uh said don't have a war over this who'd

00:30:41.600 you talk to i talked to jake sullivan and i said don't don't have a war over this uh we don't need

00:30:47.440 nato enlargement for u.s security in fact it's counter to u.s security the u.s should not be

00:30:53.520 right up against the russian border that's how we trip ourselves into world war three

00:31:00.080 no jeff don't worry no war there's not going to be a war don't worry we we've got a diplomatic

00:31:06.400 approach that jake this is a basis for diplomacy negotiate well the formal response of the united

00:31:16.640 states is that issues about nato are non-negotiable they're only between nato countries and nato

00:31:25.200 candidates no third party has any stake or interest or say in this russia it's completely irrelevant

00:31:34.480 again to use the analogy you know if mexico and china want to put chinese military bases on the

00:31:41.200 rio grande the united states has no right to interfere and no interest in it and no interest in it and no

00:31:46.800 bilateral and this was the formal u.s response in january 2022

00:31:55.600 so unprovoked not exactly so can i ask 30 years of provocation where we could not take peace

00:32:04.960 for an answer one moment all we could take is we'll do whatever we want wherever we want and no

00:32:12.960 one has any say in this at all so can i just go back 12 12 i guess 22 years putin told me and i checked

00:32:23.360 i think it's true that he in clinton's final days asked clinton if russia could join nato which seems

00:32:30.720 almost by definition like a victory yeah nato exists as a bulwark against russia russia wants to

00:32:35.040 join the alliance then you've won right why would why would the u.s government have turned that offer

00:32:41.520 down and do you think that was that is real russia and actually europe wanted it used to want before

00:32:51.200 europe was completely a kind of vassal province of the united states government wanted what they call

00:32:57.680 collective security which was we want security arrangements in which one country's security

00:33:04.640 doesn't ruin the security of another country and there were two paths to that there were basically

00:33:11.520 three paths let's say one path was what they call the osce the organization of security and cooperation

00:33:17.440 in europe really a good idea it was it's western europe central europe eastern europe and former

00:33:24.320 soviet union and the idea was let's bring us all together under one kind of charter and we'll work

00:33:29.920 out a collective security arrangement i liked it i mean this is what gorbachev was saying we don't want

00:33:36.720 war with you we don't want conflict with you we want collective security second arrangement that actually

00:33:43.680 makes a lot of sense but people say is this guy out of his mind but it actually makes a lot of sense

00:33:49.120 gorbachev disbanded the warsaw pact we should have disbanded nato said nato was there to defend against

00:33:58.480 a soviet invasion there's not going to be any soviet invasion in fact after december 1991 there's not even

00:34:05.600 the soviet union we don't need nato why is there nato nato was established to defend against the

00:34:14.240 soviet union right so why did it continue after gorbachev and yeltsin the neocons thankfully thank

00:34:22.240 you read the document it's all explicit this is our way of keeping our hegemony in europe in other words

00:34:29.840 this is our way of keeping our say in europe not protecting europe not even protecting us this is

00:34:37.440 hegemony we need our pieces on the board nato's why would european why would germany allow foreign

00:34:44.560 troops garrison garrisoned on its soil for 80 years i don't understand why would european country allow

00:34:50.240 that would you want foreign troops in your town tucker when uh when uh you had your wonderful interview

00:34:59.120 with putin he answered everything except once you asked him what are the germans seeing in this

00:35:07.840 and putin said i don't get it and i thought oh my god thank you i don't get it either is it just

00:35:17.680 broken by war guilt is it masochism i mean honestly it's not masochism it's not war guilt uh there is

00:35:23.680 there are basic mechanisms uh that i don't understand truly after being around more than 40

00:35:31.120 years in this and knowing all the leaders and i know schultz and i know others i don't understand

00:35:37.600 it but when the u.s has a military base in your country it really pulls a lot of the political

00:35:44.560 strings in your country it really influences the political parties it really pays i know it's i'm naive

00:35:51.840 you know in other words the germans are not they're not free actors in this that's the point

00:35:57.280 if men with guns showed up in your apartment in new york and just camped out there you probably

00:36:02.240 wouldn't really be the head of your household anymore would you it's probably true but you know

00:36:07.440 your your question uh of uh um why would the germans want this it's the same question of after the u.s

00:36:16.480 blew up the nordstrom pipeline why wouldn't the germans have said before or after why did you do

00:36:24.160 that this is our economy you just blew up but they don't and so they're so subservient to the u.s 0.94

00:36:32.560 interests it's a little hard to understand because it makes no sense for europe but like you said you

00:36:38.960 know there are armed people in your house maybe that's the bottom line i've spoken to european leaders

00:36:45.120 who have said to me i can't quote it because it's so shocking and i won't quote it because it was

00:36:52.320 said confidentially but basically they don't take us seriously in washington and i said yes i didn't

00:37:01.440 say it was the bubble over my head speaking to a european leader but um maybe if you pushed a little

00:37:07.520 bit you could be you would be taken more seriously not in this way of just defeat but it was said to

00:37:14.800 me in such a sad way i just felt oh god don't tell me that you're a leader of in europe but we're

00:37:21.760 occupying their country with soldiers and guns how could we take them seriously they're a 1.00

00:37:25.680 bitch i mean honestly no i don't know it's really sad and it's it's doing a lot of damage to 0.99

00:37:32.000 it's it's doing huge damage to europe it's destroying ukraine by the way that's the first 0.98

00:37:36.560 point it's destroying ukraine's doing a lot of damage to to europe it's uh wasting a hell of a lot

00:37:44.640 of lives and money in the united states which the neocons don't count um and almost nobody stands up and

00:37:55.040 talks about it and your first question about being unprovoked we even have a story about it it's the

00:38:02.160 story's complete bull it's complete nonsense it's for people who don't want or don't remember don't

00:38:10.720 want to remember uh anything before february 24th 2022 uh but there's a whole long history to this

00:38:18.480 that's absolutely kind of absurd and tragic i mean it's it's absurd it's utterly tragic 500 000 ukrainians

00:38:27.920 dead for nothing do you think that's the number i think that's probably the number yeah that's the

00:38:33.520 best number that i know i mean we talked about this last night at dinner but one of the most shocking

00:38:38.640 things just as someone who lived in washington to me is if you ask any of the senators for as i have

00:38:45.920 who voted to keep this work going with u.s tax dollars how many of your beloved ukrainians have

00:38:51.200 been killed they have no idea and they've no interest in knowing and they don't care at all and

00:38:54.880 sometimes they say they don't care uh mit romney said uh you know it's greatest bargain no american 0.58

00:39:01.840 lives uh dick blumenthal said the same thing basically this is a great bargain no american 0.95

00:39:07.280 lives they don't isn't that evil i mean at some point it's certainly hypocritical they're telling 0.69

00:39:11.040 us we're doing this for ukraine for our friends in ukraine the standard bearers of democracy but also

00:39:17.280 don't you have an obligation to kind of care about the people you kill i think so you think so i think

00:39:23.600 americans think so i don't think that the security apparatus thinks so uh because the security state

00:39:31.280 you know you got to be tough to play that game of risk uh you got to know is there going to be some

00:39:35.520 collateral losses uh some we millions of people have died in american wars of choice uh but if you're

00:39:42.480 a big boy you can't let that deter you so i think it's pretty deeply ingrained that a few hundred

00:39:50.400 thousand lives here and there come on we're talking about who runs the world after all it's really

00:39:55.280 really dark i think it's extraordinarily reckless just to circle back but also look if the pretext

00:40:02.080 for all of this is some sort of moral authority we're for democracy they're for authoritarianism

00:40:06.400 this has nothing to do with morality it has nothing to do with morality it has nothing to do with

00:40:11.600 western values it has nothing to do with american values it it doesn't even have to do with american

00:40:16.800 interests from what i can see although it says that they say that american interests are at stake

00:40:22.160 well we've spent uh maybe seven trillion dollars on these reckless perpetual wars since 2001 is that

00:40:29.680 really we've added to the debt uh the debt's gone from uh about 30 percent of national income to more

00:40:37.360 than a hundred percent of national income we've had these disastrous wars is this america's interest

00:40:43.360 no i mean no maybe we could have uh actually rebuilt a bridge or a road along the way or

00:40:50.400 no it destroyed our country even at a mile of fast rail in our country or something but no we had to

00:40:55.600 spend trillions and trillions on wars so to my mind it's all completely perverse but what i i find

00:41:04.400 amazing is that once in a while you have to look but once in a while you'll actually find the truth

00:41:10.560 expressed in such a vulgar way no they don't count the ukrainian lives they literally say

00:41:16.000 no american lives we're not even so sure about that by the way but no americans have died yeah

00:41:21.040 it's not not a large number but it's uh it's some but they don't tell us the truth about that either

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00:42:39.680 so just to circle back to the provocation i watched as a complete non-expert um the administration

00:42:46.960 send the vice president to the munich security conference in february of 2022 when it was clear

00:42:52.560 that things were getting really hot and watched kamala harris say to zelensky on camera we want

00:42:57.680 you to join nato when everybody even me a talk show host knew that that was the red line

00:43:03.360 for putin so the only conclusion i could reach was they want him to move across the border into

00:43:08.800 ukraine they want a war what is your take tucker just to say until this moment every senior official

00:43:18.400 in the u.s or this the secretary general of nato jen stoltenberg says ukraine will join nato and one

00:43:27.280 thing everyone that's listening should understand ukraine will never join nato short of a nuclear war

00:43:35.840 so because russia will never allow it period so every time we say it all we mean is the war continues

00:43:45.920 and more ukrainians are destroyed and we're willing to risk nuclear conflict and some people definitely 0.98

00:43:52.800 are because they're idiots really because that my resentment gets very high when we reach that level 0.99

00:44:01.120 but we hear talk about nuclear war these days we hear we're not going to be blackmailed by this 1.00

00:44:07.840 nuclear threat and so forth well god damn it you better be worried we're talking about a counterpart 0.98

00:44:14.640 that has 6 000 nuclear warheads we have 6 000 nuclear warheads we have a lot of crazy people 0.99

00:44:22.000 in our government i know it i'm adult enough to know over 44 years of professional life

00:44:29.360 that there are a lot of intemperate people in our country we have a lot of allies that say oh we can do

00:44:36.160 this we have a president of latvia tweeting or xing or whatever the verb is these days russia

00:44:43.840 delenda est in other words russia must be destroyed playing off of the old cato the elder 0.98

00:44:53.040 carthago delenda s carthage must be destroyed honestly a president of a baltic state tweeting

00:45:03.600 that russia must be destroyed this is prudent this is safe this is going to keep your family my family 1.00

00:45:10.400 safe are we out of our minds and all through this biden hasn't called putin one time and i speak to

00:45:20.720 very senior russian officials you speak to the most senior russian official they say we want to negotiate

00:45:28.240 of course we'll talk zelensky quote unquote made it illegal and the united states says well we won't

00:45:36.480 do anything that the ukrainians don't want this is insane by the way as if this is really between

00:45:42.960 ukraine and russia this is about the united states and russia this everybody should understand this

00:45:49.840 isn't even about ukraine and russia this is about the u.s being in ukraine and russia so the ones that

00:45:56.800 need to talk are biden and putin period and i keep saying if i may say it again just now i keep saying to

00:46:05.360 biden if you want to use my zoom account please use it i'll lend you my phone you make the call

00:46:11.520 start negotiations i don't like my family being at risk of nuclear war why won't they because they

00:46:22.320 believed up until now i think they can't quite believe it now they believed up until now that they

00:46:30.880 would get their way through bluff or superiority of force or superiority of finance they gambled

00:46:43.040 because they were gambling with someone else's lives someone else's country and someone else's money

00:46:48.320 our money the taxpayer money but they were gambling not with their own stakes but they were gambling

00:46:55.040 they're not very clever they gambled wrong all along putin said no for us this is existential for you

00:47:03.920 it's a game apparently the game of risk you need your peace on that board as if american nato forces in

00:47:12.000 ukraine is somehow existential for the united states as opposed to a neutral ukraine and they thought that

00:47:18.240 they would get their way and i spoke with senior officials all along who just thought russia won't

00:47:25.680 object or can't object or will be pushed aside or will fall to its knees with u.s financial sanctions

00:47:36.240 or will succumb to the u.s high mars and attack them just one absolutely naive idea after another but

00:47:48.960 you might ask me how can they have such naive ideas well that's that was my question yes and i'm sorry

00:47:54.880 to put words in your mouth but i would say well i'm old enough to remember vietnam i'm old enough to

00:48:00.320 remember trying to overthrow bashar al-assad i'm trying to i'm old enough to remember libya i'm old

00:48:06.880 enough to remember afghanistan we screw up non-stop this is not clever what we're doing but the people 0.50

00:48:15.120 what's so interesting so you've been an academic your whole life you're i think you're one of the

00:48:18.960 youngest tenured professors at harvard but you've also been i think uniquely a diplomat

00:48:24.080 uh on and off mostly on for you know decades so you know the people who are making u.s foreign policy

00:48:31.600 personally well and the quality of the person engaged in that seems to have declined just

00:48:37.440 dramatically i think that's true by the way i think it's true in general of american politics

00:48:42.640 uh maybe it's an illusion but when i was a kid uh in college i uh i uh did my summer internships

00:48:53.760 in my senator's office senator phil hart he was a man of great integrity of great intelligence he was

00:49:01.040 a democrat but he had lots of republican friends and colleagues there were big people uh there uh and

00:49:09.520 they were serious people fulbright and uh and and uh frank church and really wonderful impressive

00:49:19.920 people chuck percy uh luger i mean really impressive people who wanted the u.s to do right

00:49:27.040 to do good and i admired them and it was on both sides of republican and democrat and you feel it's

00:49:35.440 it's not like that right now it's really not like that right now and i don't see it um i don't

00:49:40.400 see wise people on either side i hate to say that i don't think it's a partisan divide they all seem

00:49:44.640 crazy and dumb to me you know uh we've uh we we chatted uh ran paul's uh the the only one for me 0.98

00:49:51.760 that makes sense on foreign policy right now he says stop this there's so many damn wars it's 0.99

00:49:57.280 putting us at incredible risk uh but you don't hear the democrats they line up 100 for more military 1.00

00:50:05.360 spending continue the war we have people that completely shock me that are saying these stupid 0.97

00:50:11.680 things about uh no u.s lives as if ukrainian lives don't matter uh nobody wants to talk about 0.99

00:50:20.640 negotiation no one says anything honest no one calls no one even wants the truth out of the white house or

00:50:32.320 the executive branch which is another role of congress which is don't take us for a ride we're an

00:50:38.240 independent uh separate equal part of government and it used to be that congress kind of resented

00:50:46.000 when the executive branch lied to it yes you don't see that they crave their lives you don't see that

00:50:52.320 resentment you see partisanship if it's a republican president then the democrats go after him if it's

00:50:57.360 a democratic president republicans but nobody from one's own party even tells their president stop

00:51:04.240 bullshitting us yes and that's very serious well and and these are not small lies so the two of the 0.54

00:51:10.320 biggest lies are that ukraine can win whatever that means never defined push russia back to its january

00:51:17.920 2022 border and two that ukraine will join nato and neither one of those things is true they're not only not

00:51:24.560 true if you are able to watch uh you or someone outside the mainstream it becomes obvious that these

00:51:34.480 aren't true but if you follow uh admiral kirby uh and the white house every day lying with the smirk on

00:51:42.480 his face which i can't stand because he can't even control his smirk because he tells us i'm lying you

00:51:48.720 you know as he's talking it's unreal uh but if you or if you read the new york times which is sad and

00:51:56.640 pathetic uh you won't know but if you actually listen to any independent outlets which i do because

00:52:05.360 i'm traveling in the world most of the time actually not uh not in the us you know that these things are 0.96

00:52:12.240 obvious someone asked me a couple days ago ukraine's getting oh it's getting blasted on the

00:52:18.560 battlefield now some days are 1500 dead typical 1000 dead russia has you know air superiority artillery

00:52:27.680 superiority missile superiority uh everything and the ukrainians are getting blasted and now the u.s

00:52:37.280 press is reporting oh the ukrainians are you know falling back and and the tone has suddenly changed so

00:52:45.040 someone asked me a couple days ago you know why did this sudden change on the battlefield occur

00:52:50.800 and i said excuse me he said yeah why did this sudden change he said there's no sudden change

00:52:56.320 this whole trend has been obvious for more than two years we're in a war of attrition and the bigger

00:53:02.640 party is blasting the hell out of this much bigger party much bigger exactly but you wouldn't know it

00:53:08.800 it by any of our narrative official congressional or uh or uh our kind of mainstream media because they don't

00:53:20.640 tell the truth until i'd say until but even after it's staring you in the face then maybe they'll say

00:53:29.920 something that's a little bit true that just feels like north korea to me or what you imagine north korea

00:53:34.960 is this news vacuum where everybody is under these huge misimpressions like nobody has any reference

00:53:43.040 point in the truth at all people don't even know they're being lied to it you travel constantly is

00:53:49.040 this the most sort of cut off country from an information perspective in the world you know when

00:53:54.960 uh i'll give an example when uh the u.s put on sanctions on russia in march 2022 just after

00:54:05.680 the beginning of this latest phase of the war that started in 2014 um i know senior u.s financial

00:54:16.160 officials and they oh we've got them this is going to crush them i said i don't think so you know i'm

00:54:21.360 i was in latin america last week they're not going to do this i was in india the week before that it's

00:54:27.120 not going to go like that so what happened was the only ones that applied the sanctions are europe

00:54:33.200 the united states and a few allies in east asia japan korea australia new zealand singapore

00:54:41.600 the rest of the world said we're not part of that you know this is we're we don't sign up to this we

00:54:46.960 don't like this we don't agree with the nato enlargement we don't like this narrative and the

00:54:52.880 sanctions proved to be you know pretty uh useless uh inter compared to what this grandiosity of the

00:55:02.640 u.s strategists thought so it comes to this question you know what does the rest of the world

00:55:09.200 think the rest of the world doesn't think much of the united states what it's doing it's

00:55:13.840 seems to them is a bizarre country why are you pushing nato enlargement why are you bringing us

00:55:20.080 into your war we don't we don't really want this interestingly most of the rest of the world is not

00:55:27.360 against the united states by the way they said just don't make us choose all these things this

00:55:33.040 isn't our battle and we don't even like what you're doing just make peace calm things down and we

00:55:39.120 we don't want bad relations so it's not as if the world's antagonistic but washington does not

00:55:45.920 get this at all i i probably speak to more world i don't know i speak to a lot of world leaders in

00:55:54.240 developing countries all the time it's my job as a development economist so i'm talking to world

00:55:59.760 leaders foreign ministers heads of state and so on and i know their understanding and position very

00:56:07.760 clearly i don't know whether the white house or blinken or anyone else in the administration

00:56:16.720 understands even these basic points but it was obvious to me do you know obvious to me a little

00:56:22.480 bit not not well it seemed from the outside it seems like blinken is a driving force i doubt it who

00:56:30.000 do you think is uh i think there's a big deep project with of the security apparatus that goes

00:56:37.680 back 30 years i think the cia continues to be a driving force uh i i i don't know uh national

00:56:46.000 security council's obviously driving force the pentagon's obviously a driving force uh the armed

00:56:51.280 services committees it's not uh one individual but it's a project that is long dated and it doesn't

00:57:00.080 turn and we don't have a president that's very flexible of mind uh we don't have a president yes is

00:57:05.840 you know on top of any of this it seems to me not a nimble president yeah not not nimble not

00:57:11.040 effective not necessarily uh in charge not necessarily making decisions i don't really know

00:57:17.040 but what i do know is that it's not improv it's a rudder that's stuck i would say in other words

00:57:26.000 they can't do something different and each what what is improv is that the last thing they tried didn't

00:57:35.040 work so now they need to quickly improvise something else as the rudder is stuck so we continue

00:57:42.080 on the same destructive path and it's not working so oh my god we've got to do something else

00:57:51.120 that's the improv part but what is not changing is goals direction right strategy or this most basic

00:58:00.560 point which for me is a kind of uh it sounds so simple-minded but i actually from a lifetime of

00:58:09.360 experience really believe in it we don't talk to the other side we also seem to be um huffing our

00:58:16.480 own gas a bit believing our own lies we we believe that we need to lie to because maybe if your rudder's

00:58:26.080 stuck and you're the skipper you have to say full speed ahead uh in other words if you can't move the

00:58:33.280 rudder uh you have to give some self-justification for why we continue towards disaster so for example

00:58:39.440 since you are an economist um the the economic effects of kicking russia to swift etc etc right

00:58:46.160 of these very serious sanctions imposed against russia two and a half years ago big picture it seems like

00:58:53.520 that's a country with an economy based on natural resources and manufacturing

00:58:56.960 ours is largely an economy based on finance lending money and interest and real estate right

00:59:03.440 which is more durable which is more real that's my i mean that's my perspective what's your

00:59:08.480 well i i think the basic point on the sanctions is if you have oil if you don't sell it to europe you

00:59:15.680 can sell it to asia well yeah and it wasn't so hard and they figured that out even i know that they

00:59:21.120 figured out how to get those tankers in they figured out how to get insurance cover and they figured out how to

00:59:26.560 do it and they're making a lot of money and the sanctions didn't have any effect and what they

00:59:30.400 also didn't understand and i think it's it's also important uh for people to understand in all of this

00:59:38.240 neocon strategizing they had this glimmer of insight and actually big brzezinski was was very good on it

00:59:47.600 he said by all means the one thing never never to do is to drive russia and china together well exactly

00:59:56.480 and he said very explicitly and he says in 1997 in his book the grand chessboard i think it's called

01:00:05.200 he says but this is so unlikely you know this would be so crazy to do and this is exactly 0.96

01:00:14.160 what these dunderheads have done 0.88

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01:01:22.640 who are the neocons how would you describe them what is a neocon a neocon is a a group of true

01:01:29.840 believers starting uh that really rose to uh force in the last uh years of uh bush senior uh it was

01:01:40.640 cheney uh wolfowitz uh uh rumsfeld uh but it became absolutely bipartisan uh victoria newland is kind

01:01:49.520 of the ultimate uh yeah her husband uh um bob kagan robert kagan uh is uh kind of the public intellectual 0.99

01:01:57.360 of the neocons uh i mean he is he is i know bob well he's an idiot yeah well he's he's your public 0.98

01:02:04.000 intellectual he's he's the guy that writes the the tomes that say child we i think that this has been 0.99

01:02:10.480 just about the most disastrous foreign policy imaginable how can you go from uh from peace

01:02:17.360 in 1991 when you have a chance for creating a a peaceful cooperative world that could actually

01:02:25.040 be prosperous and uh do good things together to this mess that we're in it took a strategy so 0.99

01:02:32.880 stupid so reckless uh so blind uh and that's what the neocons gave us they gave us a strategy which 0.99

01:02:40.160 said we now run the world and explicitly we will be the world's policemen we will fight the wars that 1.00

01:02:47.360 we need to fight whenever and wherever we need to fight them we will make sure that there's never a 0.98

01:02:52.800 rival well you do that long enough you end up in lots of absolutely destructive stupid wars and the 0.99

01:03:01.040 rest of the world doesn't just sit back and say oh thank you us we're so grateful you're the leader 0.98

01:03:06.720 they say come on we're you know you're 4.1 of the world population there's another 95.9 of the world

01:03:15.520 population that actually would just like peace and some cooperation and not you to be telling us what to

01:03:22.000 do so this strategy was explicit clear uh adopted in the last years of uh basically in 1991 92 uh after the

01:03:38.880 soviet union was dissolved in december 1991 clinton was

01:03:45.520 uh was he's just not serious consequent uh or experienced enough uh he wasn't a rigid neocon but

01:03:58.160 um madeline albright was a true believer uh and uh clinton drifted in that direction and that's also

01:04:08.320 partly something to understand which is uh when you have the biggest military machine in the world

01:04:13.360 when you are so powerful the war machine is always revving uh there's always some case for war

01:04:20.640 the neocons basically said yeah we're we're the policemen we're the constabulary we this is our

01:04:27.920 duty we and said you have to you have to be in each of these conflicts because you know u.s reputation

01:04:34.160 also depends on this so they invited regional wars and everywhere and all the time and believed of course

01:04:42.400 you we could clean out governments we didn't want regime change by war by covert operations and so on

01:04:48.960 and it became not a little movement it became the dominant drive so uh clinton kind of drifted his

01:05:00.880 administration was divided between madeline albright and holbrook on one side and and uh william perry on 1.00

01:05:08.400 the other side but he went with with albright uh by the end of clinton's term was nato enlargement

01:05:17.040 bombing of belgrade and and we were kind of off to the races then came uh uh bush jr 9 11 uh global war

01:05:27.760 on terror but basically 9 11 as the opportunity to implement the project for the new american century which

01:05:38.080 is the document that defines the neocon agenda and it's such an interesting document because very

01:05:45.600 clear it was very carefully studied and it's also important to understand the the u.s is a big ship

01:05:53.120 so it doesn't turn quick so you prepare a path or it's this stuck rudder as i said and you can read in

01:06:00.880 building amer rebuilding america's defenses which was a kind of campaign document for the incoming

01:06:06.880 bush jr jr administration what we should do and it defines this neocon agenda so bush jr introduced

01:06:16.400 all of these things the unilateral withdrawal from abm the the war in iraq uh the expansion of nato to

01:06:23.680 seven more countries the commitment to expand nato to ukraine and georgia then comes obama you you

01:06:31.360 don't think of him as a neocon especially but who becomes the point person for eastern europe and uh

01:06:40.880 and and ukraine victoria newland so so interesting victoria newland was the deputy national security

01:06:47.920 advisor of cheney i remember very well yes so she was cheney's advisor then she was uh uh she was uh

01:06:55.520 george w's uh uh ambassador to nato during the commitment to enlargement and if obama weren't

01:07:05.040 uh uh a neocon you would say well that's not someone i'm gonna hire but all of a sudden she lands as 1.00

01:07:13.360 hillary's uh as hillary's uh assistant now hillary's absolutely neocon to the core uh and uh there's victoria

01:07:22.800 newland and she goes from being hillary's assistant to becoming uh assistant secretary of state for 0.98

01:07:30.080 european affairs and becomes the point person in the overthrow of yanukovych uh at the end of 2013 and

01:07:36.960 early 2014 and obama uh is he not you know he's also very inexperienced in for obviously no experience

01:07:46.480 at all in foreign policy but um he wasn't by nature a neocon but but the system keeps you moving

01:07:55.040 unless you're a president that knows how to keep a foot on the brakes and we haven't had many presidents

01:08:00.480 like that uh eisenhower was one who knew how to put his foot on the brakes because he really understood

01:08:07.360 this system uh john kennedy learned it but only after the bay of pigs and uh probably was uh was killed

01:08:15.360 uh by our government for uh trying to keep his foot on the brakes uh and there have not been many

01:08:22.960 other occasions when presidents kept their foot on the brakes so in 2011 obama does the absolute neocon

01:08:31.520 play of saying almost out of the blue by the way why don't we overthrow bashar al-assad syria's

01:08:40.080 president well that's a little damn weird but suddenly you start hearing assad must go i was on

01:08:49.440 morning joe uh when uh that statement by hillary was made and uh joe scarborough looked at me and said 0.99

01:08:57.280 jeff what do you think and i said well how are they gonna do that that sounds like another pretty stupid

01:09:04.160 idea and it turned out that was 2011 we've had 13 years of war in syria hundreds of thousands dead 0.90

01:09:12.560 destroyed the country of course destroyed the country and and who's president bashar all set 0.61

01:09:17.920 and interestingly i can tell you uh oh god yeah i can tell you in 2012 uh

01:09:27.200 uh the u.s you know there there were protests there were things that were going on in syria but

01:09:34.080 but the president said okay we'll send in the cia to overthrow uh the government in syria and if anyone

01:09:41.920 is wondering we do this dozens of times so don't have any illusion that this is unusual it is the job

01:09:51.200 the terms of reference of the cia to overthrow governments in other countries i don't approve i

01:09:57.600 think it leads to war destruction it hasn't passed uh putin's notice that that's the job of the cia so

01:10:05.280 it's another reason he doesn't exactly want the u.s on his border and so forth okay so we start uh

01:10:12.720 arming uh the jihadists crazy things in syria yeah i can say it uh i'm just thinking because

01:10:26.000 and the u.s says assad must go so a diploma the u.n starts a diplomatic process uh to try to find peace

01:10:35.600 which is the job of the u.n it's not to implement u.s regime change it's to try to find peace

01:10:40.960 so the u.s uh the u.n succeeds in getting all of the parties to agree to a peace agreement except one

01:10:52.720 the u.s so the yes so the idea that uh you know you couldn't find peace you couldn't find these all

01:10:59.920 these different factions uh in syria there was an agreement reached but there was one obstacle to the

01:11:08.000 agreement and the obstacle was the u.s said on the first day of this agreement assad must go and uh

01:11:16.320 the response was you know why don't you have it a process there'll be in two years an election or three

01:11:22.480 years don't overthrow the government the first day we have all this in place and uh obama well i don't

01:11:30.960 know if it's obama probably hillary but whatever said no so that's why there was no agreement but

01:11:38.160 what was the motive like why would you want to overthrow bashar al-assad very strange uh i've never

01:11:46.320 heard an absolute uh intelligent reason for this believe me their idea is we can do it why not

01:11:59.440 one argument was that the neocons had a list uh and this is actually what wesley clark who was you know

01:12:07.040 nato's supreme commander yes uh in the end of the 1990s i know wesley quite well and he's also spoken

01:12:14.160 about this he said the neocons had a list that they were going to clear out in the 2000s all of the

01:12:22.240 governments aligned with the soviet union or with russia now syria has a naval russia has a naval base

01:12:30.160 on the mediterranean yes uh and so assad is therefore an enemy uh or not an enemy they he

01:12:38.480 doesn't rise to the level of being an enemy someone who's peace you can take off the board and put in

01:12:43.680 your own peace that's all so the idea is incredible arrogance they don't think honest to god i don't

01:12:52.560 know whoever gave that order knew nothing about syria that i can guarantee you but the downstream

01:12:58.880 effects of that were were horrifying well unbelievable but created isis so yeah but we 0.50

01:13:05.280 probably created isis pretty directly uh because we funded jihadists all along the way that's uh our

01:13:11.120 story since 1979 actually yes uh so this goes back a long time um they don't they're not clever

01:13:21.360 they're not honest they're not transparent they are arrogant to the hilt and they don't talk to

01:13:28.800 anybody else including to us the american people including to congress including to counterparts in

01:13:35.760 other countries and it gets you into trouble when you're so flippant and flagrant because remember

01:13:44.000 what was happening in syria they did exactly the same thing in libya

01:13:48.960 uh and you look at libya they decided to take out qaddafi why no one really knows he was cooperating

01:13:57.200 with us at that point no one knows because uh some people say sarkozy

01:14:02.400 uh that that uh that qaddafi had contributed to sarkozy's campaign that it was a personal vendetta

01:14:10.960 there are a hundred theories the fact that there are a hundred theories shows that the whole thing

01:14:16.400 was bullshit to use a technical diplomatic term you cannot even know right now why what you know is that 0.78

01:14:24.320 they misused a u.n security council resolution to protect the people of benghazi to launch a months 0.93

01:14:31.920 long nato aerial bombardment of libya until they brought down the government unleashed war in africa for

01:14:41.280 the next uh 13 years until today which is still roiling all of the countries of the region

01:14:48.480 they do these things because they can because it doesn't count maybe another theory which is

01:14:58.080 even a little maybe true what difference it's money it's a business we're running a business

01:15:04.800 we're trying weapons we're doing this maybe it's all success from somebody's point of view that you

01:15:10.240 have all these wars going with this big military machine i don't know that's that is a theory which

01:15:15.520 is not completely dismissible because what you can't do tucker is look and say my god we had a

01:15:22.080 geopolitical reason to do this this was really part of american security we really needed to overthrow

01:15:29.040 assad we really needed to take out qaddafi because if we didn't do that something else would happen you 0.97

01:15:34.800 cannot even concoct a crazy narrative ex post that explains that so these are not deeply explicable facts

01:15:45.120 but the pattern is is very is recognizable immediately here you have a country with

01:15:50.080 unchallenged for a moment unchallenged power starting wars for not any obvious reason all over the world

01:15:58.480 when was the last time an empire did that you know the british that was the last time i think we learned

01:16:06.400 everything from the british they were non-stop wars skirmishes you know when you're an empire

01:16:12.480 and and if anyone still plays risk i don't know i played it uh 60 years ago i have to admit so i'm

01:16:19.200 not sure if people still play the game but risk you're trying to get your piece on every part of

01:16:25.280 the board when you have your piece someplace on the board if the neighboring spots are not yours

01:16:32.240 you better have wars with them or they're going to take you out and so every place becomes an object for

01:16:39.120 war because it becomes next door to wherever you have your bases your concern and so on so we

01:16:47.040 have military bases in i would say 80 countries probably something like that of course the count

01:16:56.480 is not public so people put together their own lists we have about 750 military bases around the world

01:17:03.760 each of those places has a neighborhood uh each of those places has the next door which oh well

01:17:10.000 they're not we don't have a base there we better have a base there uh and so that's the logic which is

01:17:15.840 if you're at the outer end of this well you better continue because otherwise your outer limit is that what

01:17:23.360 we don't learn actually it's another analogy which i found to be useful the romans by around 110 a.d uh

01:17:35.440 with hadrian said and and trajan okay we've reached a good limit yeah and they stopped trying to expand

01:17:46.640 yep they built they built a wall they kind of left it there exactly and they said uh they had a there

01:17:53.200 was a war that i find analogous to ukraine uh they had a war in germania so-called uh east of the rhine

01:18:04.960 in what is now germany uh in 9 a.d uh which was a war of expansion by augustus to tame the german tribes

01:18:14.560 and they lost that wars the war of the tutenburg forest and they lost that war in 9 a.d

01:18:20.400 they basically decided after that not entirely they didn't say well this is the end of the roman

01:18:29.040 empire they said okay we'll just leave germania yeah there are limits to our power there are limits

01:18:35.360 and that's fine why don't we behave like that we're not threatened by russia we are not threatened by russia

01:18:45.360 and ukraine being neutral is not a threat to u.s security it's builds u.s security period that's what

01:18:54.560 i said to jake solven it's not even a concession jake it's a benefit for us leave some space between you

01:19:03.280 and them that's what we want some space so we don't have an accidental trip wire

01:19:09.360 that's the real logic of this world give a little space yes we don't have to be everywhere we're not

01:19:18.960 playing risk we're trying to run our lives we're trying to keep our children safe we're not trying

01:19:25.360 to own every part of the world so speaking of increasing our risk i i think the unstated but 0.53

01:19:31.840 very clear objective of all of this is to kill putin and and replace him and break up russia that that's my 0.97

01:19:37.680 read on it if you read even this project for a new american century rebuilding america's defenses

01:19:46.400 it says maybe russia will be decentralized into a european russia's central asian russia of siberian

01:19:57.440 russia they call it in a and a far east russia this is essentially what you're saying they they talk

01:20:04.240 there's even uh some commissions in washington decolonizing russia their their hope uh the cia's

01:20:12.080 hope uh if they would ever tell us the truth about anything uh it was uh but they they don't get any of

01:20:19.440 this right but their their thought probably in this deep long-term vision was after the soviet union fell

01:20:27.600 so too will russia disintegrate it will disintegrate along its ethnic lines who will disintegrate along

01:20:34.800 its geographic lines why is that a u.s project it's a u.s project only because from my point of view the

01:20:44.320 u.s resents that there is a country of 11 time zones and it's so big that it is uh on its face a

01:20:53.360 denial of u.s global hegemony uh in other words uh how obnoxious of them to be there uh because but

01:21:02.000 the problem is they don't see it that way but but just if you're looking at this purely through the

01:21:07.680 lens of like what's good for us like u.s interests which i do think is their job actually yes but um

01:21:13.680 chaos across 11 time zones and and innumerable ethnic groups and religious divisions with 6 000

01:21:20.880 nuclear warheads that's really a threat to the world i couldn't agree more is it not am i missing

01:21:28.160 something no you're not missing anything uh and and the fact of the matter is you know i was an advisor

01:21:34.720 to gorbachev in 1990 91. i got to watch close up i was an advisor to president yeltsin in 1991 1992.

01:21:47.360 i actually it's literally true as weird as this sounds i well maybe not to you you're about the

01:21:56.880 one person for whom it's not weird i sat in the kremlin uh sitting across from yeltsin the day

01:22:05.920 the soviet union ended uh in in a in a really it not even quite that day literally it was even more

01:22:14.320 remarkable and bizarre than that i was leading a little economics delegation to talk about the

01:22:21.600 collapse of the economy that was underway and yeltsin came from the back of the room in one of these

01:22:28.000 giant kremlin rooms yes and walked across the long room and sat down right in front of me and said

01:22:36.080 gentlemen i want to tell you the soviet union is over that's incredible like that and then he pointed

01:22:45.360 to the back door he said do you know who is in that room over there it's the leaders of the soviet

01:22:53.600 military and they have just agreed to the dissolution of the soviet union and that was the first words i

01:23:00.800 heard out of his mouth sitting directly across from me so what a moment yeah that was of course the most

01:23:10.080 unbelievable moment i've had and you're sitting in the kremlin and you hear that suddenly and um and

01:23:18.160 then he went on to say he spoke very beautifully for a few minutes what does russia want and he must have

01:23:26.480 used the word normal 10 times in that short speech we want to be a normal country we're done with the

01:23:35.680 communism we we want to be normal we want to be friendly we want to be part of europe we want to be

01:23:43.120 part of the world economy we want to be normal mr sachs can you help us be normal and i said mr president

01:23:52.640 um the world will be so grateful for this opportunity for peace that i am absolutely sure

01:24:02.560 that the united states and the rest of the world is going to come to your assistance and i said this

01:24:10.160 most remarkably wrong fact because i believed it i knew that that was america's interest i believed we

01:24:21.040 would follow our interest and i had had a very unusual experience a wonderful experience two years earlier

01:24:30.960 when i served as poland's main outside economic advisor helping them to develop the plan for becoming

01:24:38.640 a market economy and part of europe and in those days i helped poland raise many billions of dollars of

01:24:46.880 emergency support to stabilize a very shaky unstable economy and in those days in 1989 every everything i

01:24:59.200 recommended was adopted by the united states government almost immediately i thought hey i'm pretty good

01:25:07.200 i i once went in one morning to senator dole and i said poland needs a billion dollars to stabilize its

01:25:15.280 currency and he said mr sachs come back in an hour and i came back in an hour and there was brent scowcroft

01:25:24.720 and our national security advisor he said a drill said you know who this is mr sachs i said general it's

01:25:32.720 an honor to meet you and scowcroft said uh what what is it what's your idea and i i handed him my one

01:25:39.760 page about a billion dollars and he looked and he said uh will this work mr sachs and i said i think this

01:25:46.480 is the right way to stabilize the currency he said uh well we'll get back to you uh and uh at 5 p.m

01:25:54.800 uh as dole asked me uh i called dole and uh he said tell your friends they have their billion dollars

01:26:03.200 uh within nine within eight hours basically okay so i said to yeltsin this will be great you know

01:26:13.200 you're gonna get all the support we're gonna go mobilize the financial package for you we're gonna

01:26:18.000 help you stabilize the ruble we're gonna get a stabilization fund for the ruble we're gonna get

01:26:22.880 this and that and of course every single thing i recommended that had worked in poland they rejected

01:26:28.960 in washington and i just for the life of me what the hell is going on here stabilization fund it

01:26:37.680 worked the złoty was stable the polish currency stabilized no mr sachs i'm afraid we don't support

01:26:44.400 that and one after another knocked down so i did not understand the geopolitics yeah that i was in at

01:26:54.000 all i didn't get it i said are you kidding they want normal they want peace this is our greatest

01:26:59.840 moment this is the greatest moment of the second half of the 20th century the scourge of nuclear war

01:27:06.320 has been lifted the cold war is over do something no so so that's that's it

01:27:14.400 what do you make of putin he's very smart uh he has led russia very effectively um and

01:27:32.880 because he emerged from the kgb he understands the u.s the way the u.s operates because we became a

01:27:41.760 security state we became a state where the cia has absolutely extraordinary influence and putin gets

01:27:50.560 that and so he really understands how we operate he doesn't like it but he understands it and his

01:27:58.960 background uh especially because his background comes from the kgb his counterpart was the cia he does 0.87

01:28:07.440 not have illusions about the united states uh and um i wish i wish we were proving him wrong no but we're

01:28:15.680 not how influential is the cia in the operations of the u.s government definitely in many many places

01:28:26.320 it is the instrument of regime change yes the u.s is the only country in the world

01:28:33.680 that relies on regime change as i would say the lead diplomatic let me put it a different way

01:28:41.360 not diplomatic as as the lead foreign policy instrument in other words most countries virtually

01:28:49.040 any small country any middle power country when it doesn't like another country it either has to deal

01:28:56.720 with it or it comes begging to the united states to take out that country uh yeah and we are the country

01:29:04.240 that makes a living by overthrowing other governments and that's not a good vocation for us it almost

01:29:14.480 always ends in disaster in bloodshed in continued instability but that's the job of the c that became 0.87

01:29:24.480 it's half the job of the cia cia is also an intelligence agency it collects information and makes

01:29:30.800 analysis and it gives uh intelligence findings and i have no problem with that role at all although i

01:29:38.560 i don't want him to spy on us but i think that making intelligence findings for the u.s government is uh is

01:29:46.800 necessary um but being a private army or uh a a hidden force that overthrows governments that stokes unrest

01:29:59.280 that puts people in power um that runs uh covert operations uh i'm against it so if

01:30:09.040 a big part of the cia's job is taking down leaders of foreign countries how long before

01:30:17.040 it does that here in the united states i mean it doesn't doesn't seem unlikely that like why wouldn't

01:30:22.320 they do that here yeah probably uh 61 years ago was their first run at this uh with the president kennedy from

01:30:29.600 i think it's a best guess not sure but best guess that this was at least uh

01:30:38.320 maybe rogue cia or maybe official cia or maybe compartmentalized cia operation

01:30:45.600 uh it was clearly someone's operation not lee harvey oswald's that's pretty obvious all we know

01:30:52.560 and all of the evidence points in that uh that direction it used to be said why is the united

01:30:58.640 states the only country in the world that's never had a coup and the answer was well we're the only

01:31:04.320 country that doesn't have a u.s embassy uh well of course we've had a coup i mean murdering the

01:31:10.960 president yeah but but we probably had a coup in broad daylight on november 22nd 1963 and uh we never

01:31:17.760 quite got over it uh and um we never looked into it uh on on the contrary we covered it up from the

01:31:26.160 beginning and drip by drip evidence comes including the most recent evidence that that magic bullet which

01:31:33.520 was one of the justifications of the absurd account of a lone gunman uh it was also debunked by the uh

01:31:42.480 i think now 88 year old secret service uh yes agent who said i actually put that bullet from the

01:31:50.080 back of uh kennedy's seat in the limousine on the stretcher at parkland hospital uh so there's so many

01:31:57.120 things wrong with the official i mean it's preposterous almost nobody believes it uh and or should believe

01:32:04.240 it but it's also interesting for all that we're discussing uh most likely it was a it was a government

01:32:11.440 coup in broad daylight with the tremendous amount of evidence uh that it was a conspiracy at a high

01:32:18.640 level uh and yet uh it it passed uh for the the last 61 years without uh any uh official practical

01:32:29.200 note of that fact do you think that was the last time the cia tried to influence domestic politics in

01:32:35.120 this country well i'm sure the u.s the cia influences influences domestic politics all the time in this

01:32:41.120 country because we know about extensive surveillance operations this was but it's interesting you know

01:32:47.360 next year will be the 50th anniversary of the church committee hearings and frank church was a very

01:32:54.880 unusual figure from uh idaho uh a pretty staunch republican state and he was a a young gifted patriot

01:33:07.040 uh who's a favorite senator was a bora a conservative uh republican senator and he was just an upright uh very

01:33:16.080 decent person who uh saw more and more my god it's the things we're talking about something's not right

01:33:26.400 people people are getting assassinated in other countries uh our government uh it doesn't look uh clean

01:33:33.200 and um one thing after another in a series of uh events led him to chair the only time a senate

01:33:45.360 investigative investigative committee actually looked deeply into cia operations that was 1975

01:33:55.760 fascinating uh you know what made it possible was just a confluence of events

01:34:01.360 uh nixon had resigned ford was an unelected president who came from congress who didn't want to take on

01:34:10.320 congress so he didn't resist uh church's uh uh investigation even though his chief of staff

01:34:18.960 dick cheney was telling him go after this guy we got to crush this investigation but uh but um

01:34:26.080 ford said no no no we can't in any way the supreme court and i don't want to get into another huge

01:34:31.360 fight uh hoover had died uh um j edgar hoover had died in 1972 i believe so the fbi couldn't resist the 0.51

01:34:40.400 same way uh uh bill colby had become cia director and he didn't want to inherit all the shit from right

01:34:48.800 the past cia so there came this one moment when all these pieces enabled actually someone to look into

01:34:56.960 what this organization was doing and the first thing they discovered was no one had

01:35:01.760 ever looked into any of it before no second they discovered this is a an army of the president of the

01:35:09.600 united states yes it is a private army and they debated is it a rogue army does it do it on its own or

01:35:16.800 is it an army of the president but it's an army and it's an army completely outside of our our

01:35:22.800 oversight and control then the third thing they found is they're assassinating lots of people

01:35:27.440 they're assassinating americans by the way through these unbelievably crazed lsd experiments uh yes they 0.70

01:35:34.880 you know basically uh they weren't the ones to put the bullet through the head of patrice lumumba in 0.77

01:35:40.400 the congo but they they tried and they were they supported the overthrow of lumumba and of course

01:35:48.320 they were trying to kill castro and many other things so they found unbelievable things now that was

01:35:54.560 1975 since then we're 49 years there's never been another church committee of its kind it's unbelievable

01:36:04.000 how many things have happened since then the list believe me is very very long i've seen some of it

01:36:11.600 so directly i can't it's just shocking to me but just an insight into how our country works which you

01:36:20.800 know very well but to me i find it so weird i was asked to help um uh aristide in haiti yes okay

01:36:32.000 haiti's oh so poor so unstable so desperate and uh aristide uh asked me for economic help that's

01:36:40.720 what i do uh that's that's my expertise so i uh flew down to port-au-prince and i had a very good

01:36:48.480 meeting with him and at the end of the meeting he said uh mr sacks they're gonna take me out they're

01:36:52.880 gonna take me out and uh what do you mean is it they're they're gonna overthrow me okay sorry to be

01:37:00.640 so naive as i am i said no we're gonna make this work you know this is uh we're gonna make this

01:37:07.280 work no no no they're gonna take me out i said no no i'm going back to washington we're gonna help

01:37:12.080 with the inter-american development bank and world bank and imf and oh i'm so naive so of course then

01:37:21.120 and they decide to take them out uh and the way they do it is destabilize the country so the first

01:37:28.960 thing is close down the imf close down the world bank close down the inter-american development

01:37:33.680 bank squeeze squeeze squeeze the next thing is you send in some mercenaries who are going to

01:37:39.440 create trouble come over the border from dominican republic the last thing was rather remarkable which

01:37:44.800 was the u.s ambassador showed up at his door literally one day and said mr president you have

01:37:51.280 to flee we have a plane waiting for you otherwise your life is in danger and they led him to a plane

01:37:58.080 with an unmarked tail and 23 hours later he was in central african republic so this is what's called

01:38:04.880 a coup a coup in broad daylight central african absolutely i thought he went to joeberg i don't

01:38:10.800 know why no no no i mean he went afterwards but the first the landing was central african republic if

01:38:16.240 i remember correctly so i what do i do what can i do well i called i called up the new york times

01:38:24.800 reporter on the beat and i said uh there's been a coup on broad daylight i don't you know you got to

01:38:31.040 cover this the reporter told me my editor is not interested

01:38:36.240 a coup in our hemisphere all the news that's fit to print so i i have one it's just amazing so i i

01:38:46.320 wanted to ask you about that i mean you said there have been no correctly there have been no real

01:38:50.880 oversight hearings into the intel agencies in 50 years yes but you know the congressional committees

01:38:56.640 are only one part of the oversight the constitution prescribes and the other part of course is the media

01:39:01.840 right supposed to provide oversight uh oversight of government and i one of the moment i really

01:39:08.960 wanted to speak to you was the day that i saw the clip of you on bloomberg news i think one of my

01:39:14.320 favorite moments and we just described and it was within hours of this massive natural gas pipeline

01:39:20.560 nordstream uh disintegrating can you describe what happened yeah so uh you know the u.s blew up nordstream

01:39:28.320 uh as it promised to on uh probably dozens of occasions but the most recent uh of those occasions

01:39:35.920 uh was uh president biden uh said i think it's february 7 2022 i may have the date a little bit off but

01:39:47.280 he said in a statement to the press uh if uh the russians invade ukraine nordstream is finished uh and uh

01:39:56.080 the reporter who asked him the question i think from germany but an international said well mr president

01:40:02.160 um how can you say that how could you do that and uh he looks and he says very gravely believe me we

01:40:10.080 have our ways okay so this is uh and then you can go back and find a thousand clips oh yeah victoria

01:40:16.560 newland oh yeah and uh crews and everyone's saying this must stop this must stop we'll never let it happen

01:40:22.000 uh it will be destroyed it will be ended okay so then it's blown up okay and you and and then the

01:40:30.160 america you know well before we get to that i was on bloomberg uh soon afterwards i don't remember

01:40:38.560 whether it was the next day or the day after and i said uh you know i think the u.s did this uh mr sachs

01:40:46.080 how can you how can you say that uh and i said well first the president said he was gonna it was gonna

01:40:53.600 be over and then there's actually you know some readings of uh planes in the vicinity and so forth

01:40:59.840 and and and uh there was the tweet uh by the uh former uh uh and now current uh uh foreign minister of

01:41:08.880 poland thank you usa with a picture of uh of of uh the uh the the water uh bubbling over the uh blown

01:41:17.920 up pipeline uh radek sikorsky's tweet yeah there was an apple bomb's husband yes there was a bit of

01:41:25.600 evidence that well yes the united states had done this thank you very much they said they wouldn't and

01:41:30.080 they did it um i was yanked off the air within 30 seconds i could watch i could imagine because

01:41:39.920 he was listening to something in the earplug which i could only imagine get that son of a 0.97

01:41:44.240 bitch off the air and they just this interview's over you know and he stopped and then uh the another 0.99

01:41:51.680 anchor berated me for a few minutes a few minutes after that and um okay that was the last 0.97

01:41:59.840 time i had a word on mainstream media i have to tell you seriously yeah yeah

01:42:11.040 but you've been um famous i because i live in this country i know you've been famous for decades

01:42:17.120 yeah i was on uh everything msnbc like a lot yeah a lot constantly but it's so interesting that your sin

01:42:25.360 was saying something true right that the media really should be on i mean this is the largest

01:42:30.880 act of industrial sabotage in my lifetime it's the largest it's a big deal carbon emission yeah

01:42:37.120 ever you know it's a look it's it's a big deal it's an act of war uh it helps to understand what

01:42:43.840 this ukraine war is all about it helps us to understand that this is a war between the united

01:42:48.960 states and russia fought yes on many means it's important to understand it uh it also

01:42:55.760 has a deeper economic significance because it's part of a long-standing uh u.s idea of not letting

01:43:04.960 germany and russia ever get too close together economically so there's a lot to that story and

01:43:12.080 it's again covering that look if you can kill a president in broad daylight uh and get away with

01:43:19.600 it for 61 years if you can uh walk a president of a neighboring country out to an unmarked plane

01:43:27.200 uh and not have it covered uh if you can have a quote unprovoked war that you provoke over a 30-year

01:43:33.280 period you can do lots of things and um this is just one of the things that you could do and

01:43:40.240 i discovered that uh some of our press like the new york times which opined after the blow up that

01:43:53.040 looks like russia did that you know to their own to their own infrastructure they're reporters so

01:43:59.360 they're top reporters know better they tell me yeah jeff of course of course but they don't cover it

01:44:06.560 because we're living in an environment where the people in power think it's a game

01:44:14.960 and they think that it it's not their job to tell us they're they're playing risk with our lives

01:44:22.400 they're playing risk with ukrainian lives they don't have to tell us the truth we don't have to have any 1.00

01:44:28.880 serious discussion we don't have to call anyone for a real hearing or even much less a congressional

01:44:38.880 investigation we're not living in that kind of world we're living in a world where it's almost 0.99

01:44:47.280 daily that the government says what it wants kirby at the white house says it with that damn smirk of his 0.91

01:44:57.120 uh and uh pretty much everyone knows it's lies but why have it it's just interesting because you're 0.94

01:45:05.360 from a very specific class you know yeah well-known academic economist diplomat frequent tv guest and

01:45:14.400 you know there are a bunch of other people in that world yeah but you were pretty much the only person

01:45:19.920 to say no that's a lie and i'm not going along with it why why you why didn't you do what all of your

01:45:25.680 peers did i do it because it came uh as part of my life course working mostly internationally

01:45:36.960 talking with the leaders abroad i care about my credibility a lot which is you know i'm not always

01:45:44.000 right but i try to always be right yes and i have a lot of discussions every day with foreign ministers

01:45:51.040 or with senior diplomats or with heads of state and for me i i don't hold an office i don't do anything

01:45:59.520 other than try to have reasonable ideas and speak as truthfully as possible so it's kind of a a career

01:46:07.520 approach which is i'm trying to be accurate right but there should be a lot of people like you

01:46:12.640 in your world yeah i i know for me i'm not interested i and i would not take a job in the

01:46:21.840 u.s government for example i couldn't anyway you know with all the things i've said i can imagine

01:46:27.040 the congressional hearings it would be did you say that about the u.s government did you say that about

01:46:31.360 the u.s government but in any event i'm not looking for a job i'm not looking for usaid grant i'm not

01:46:37.440 looking for a u.s government grant so in that sense also i'm not um i'm not part i'm not exactly i

01:46:47.680 hope trapped in in that way i'm just trying to be accurate and what i'm really really trying is to

01:46:59.120 help the united states government understand they're operating on dangerous dangerous

01:47:06.720 trajectories and with a lot of delusions and it's very risky for everybody and i also have a

01:47:14.560 big measure of resentment i don't like the risks that were being put under tucker yes i don't agree

01:47:19.680 with that i don't like it you've got children this is not a game i got grandchildren and i really care

01:47:25.920 about this and i don't like the games and i want people to tell the truth and we if we told the truth

01:47:33.200 we could actually stop the wars today i don't mean that sounds crazy it's not crazy if we told the

01:47:41.520 truth about ukraine if biden called putin and said that nato enlargement we've been trying for 30 years

01:47:49.120 it's off we get it you're right it's not going to your border ukraine should be neutral that war would

01:47:55.840 stop today oh there'd be lots of pieces to figure out where exactly will the borders be how will it go

01:48:02.800 i don't i don't say that there won't be issues but the fighting would stop today if the government of

01:48:11.840 israel either were told or said there will be a state of palestine and we will live peacefully side by

01:48:20.000 side the fighting would stop today these are basic facts basic matters of truth that if we actually

01:48:32.080 spoke them if we actually treated each other like grown-ups we would resolve what seemed to be these

01:48:41.440 you know insurmountable uh insurmountable crises they're not at all insurmountable they just require

01:48:49.040 a measure of truth how have you been treated by your peers for saying things like i hear what

01:48:54.480 you just said and i think it's indisputable it's also very honorable um you seem to be acting out of

01:49:00.640 the best motives the traditional american motives i would say yeah so i admire you for saying that

01:49:06.560 how have your peers responded to you they think i'm a little crazy i think what would be crazy about

01:49:12.800 what you just said well you know uh when i said uh that this war has a reason that it's not that putin's

01:49:22.000 evil that uh we provoke this and that it could stop uh i got most of my remaining interlocutors saying

01:49:34.640 jeff what is the matter with you you're putin apologist you know how dare you when i say this

01:49:40.400 about israel i lose another another group but yes because there are things you're supposed to say

01:49:45.680 here you're supposed because this idea of u.s hegemony this idea of u.s dominance it's pretty deep in

01:49:58.800 american academia also i mean i don't it's not a shock to tell you but all of these uh um

01:50:05.040 uh special uh organize the think tanks or university uh um special uh departments or uh

01:50:15.920 or research units they're funded by the u.s government they're funded by the security state

01:50:21.600 they're funded by large donors that are all part of this story so it's not absolutely

01:50:28.400 simple to get out of that i think mark twain i think he was the one that said it may have been

01:50:36.480 menken but i think it's attributed to twain that that's said uh it's impossible to convince a man

01:50:43.040 of something when his job depends on uh on believing the other uh and i think that's true of a lot of

01:50:50.800 people which is i i can't really say that i don't know if it's true but anyway why are you sticking your

01:50:56.320 head out so much i i gotta ask you about first of all thank you i think that was that's the crispest

01:51:05.200 and i think most honest description i've ever heard of the lead up to what's happening in ukraine right

01:51:10.560 now so thank you for that um so given the credibility that you've just gained by that

01:51:15.120 explanation where do you think covid came from covid um the question is which lab and in which way

01:51:22.960 uh it almost surely did not come out of nature uh it almost surely came out of a deliberate research

01:51:33.680 project that had a core idea which was to take a natural virus and make it more infectious and we have

01:51:45.040 one major blueprint of that which is a research proposal called diffuse which was submitted to the

01:51:54.240 department of defense uh to the unit called darpa in 2018 and it is a kind of cookbook for how to make

01:52:04.080 the virus that causes covid 19 and the virus is called sars cove 2 and what's distinctive about sars cove 2

01:52:13.280 is that it has uh something called a proteolytic cleavage site uh and specifically something called

01:52:21.520 a furin cleavage site and it's just some pieces of the genome that make this thing damn infectious and

01:52:31.200 what's interesting about it is that for this class of bat viruses which are called beta coronaviruses which is

01:52:40.000 is what sars comes from and what covet 19 comes from for that class of viruses and there are several

01:52:47.440 hundred known none of them in nature ever had that particular piece of the genome called none none other

01:52:56.240 than sars cove 2 and that piece of the genome uh the furin cleavage site was an object of research

01:53:07.600 attention from 2005 because it was understood that if a virus were to have that it would make the entry of

01:53:17.440 the virus into human cells easier and would make the virus therefore infectious for humans sars 1 which

01:53:26.160 is the first outbreak of a virus like this in 2003 in hong kong was most likely a natural virus that came

01:53:38.080 from a farm animal and it was not so infectious it killed some thousands of people but with sars 1 you

01:53:47.200 got very very sick for weeks before you were infectious to someone else and that meant that

01:53:54.400 it was not so hard to stop by isolating people who had the symptoms with sars cove 2 you are

01:54:02.480 infectious even without any symptoms sometimes you're completely asymptomatic so what's the difference of

01:54:09.760 sars 1 and sars cove 2 the furin cleavage site and in 2005 already so almost 20 years ago that experiment

01:54:22.400 was done that said oh take sars 1 add in a furin cleavage site this thing becomes really infectious and

01:54:29.920 there are a series of experiments 2005 2009 2011 that are called gain of function experiments where you

01:54:38.320 deliberately manipulate the virus to make it more infectious by 2015 we had a full-blown research

01:54:47.600 program funded by nih by tony fauci's unit on beta coronaviruses already with the lead scientists

01:54:58.160 uh focusing on this furin cleavage site it's starting to get ah so they're starting to do more and more

01:55:08.240 targeted experiments may i ask why why would you want to take a virus like that and make it more infectious

01:55:15.360 there the overarching answer is called bio defense and the and then the real question which i don't know the

01:55:25.840 answer to is that bio warfare or is that true defense nih starting in 2001 became the defense

01:55:36.800 department's research unit so remember the anthrax attack that came after very well yes after that i'm

01:55:45.360 sorry to ask you plus do we know or are you satisfied you know what that was that probably came out of

01:55:51.600 amrid it was probably a u.s uh you know some u.s scientists either for sure provoking or doing some

01:55:59.600 crazy things or disgruntled or boosting up the dod budget i don't know i don't know the answer to that

01:56:07.840 i know that after that dod put its budget through tony fauci's unit which suddenly became the largest unit

01:56:14.960 of nih and fauci became the head of what is politely called biodefense but one only suspects that it is

01:56:25.680 we're not supposed to do biowarfare it used to be called germ warfare right right and i don't know

01:56:31.440 and they say well it's it's for vaccines against biowarfare it's to defend against it it's to defend

01:56:37.840 against natural outbreaks but what it is is a tremendously dangerous research program that

01:56:45.360 involves a lot of manipulation of very dangerous pathogens and by 2015 the ability of scientists to

01:56:54.080 manipulate these viruses was reaching astounding proportions and we've got a real genius who was

01:57:00.960 part of this group named ralph barrack at university of north carolina who is a genius and what he could

01:57:09.600 do was if you gave him uh 30 000 letters of the dna code a g c c g a and so forth and i mean give him

01:57:22.400 the letters he'll turn that into a live virus i think that's pretty damn remarkable in other words you

01:57:29.760 give him the designer virus he'll give you the live virus uh and he created what's called a reverse 0.92

01:57:36.320 genetic system to make these viruses and to put in pieces into the viruses uh with the technique which

01:57:45.280 he also called no seum meaning you suture in a part but you do it in a way that you can't identify that

01:57:53.840 it was put in in the lab so it's without the fingerprints as it were and it's clear that this

01:58:02.320 area of research picked up a tremendous amount of steam because a lot of american scientists were

01:58:08.800 shouting this is so damn dangerous stop it and fauci was saying no this is important this is really 0.77

01:58:17.280 crucial we're going to continue to do this there was a brief moratorium uh during at the end of the

01:58:23.680 obama period and then the moratorium was lifted during the trump administration and even during

01:58:30.720 the moratorium period we know that the research continued on many grants it's clear when you look

01:58:38.240 closely at this that they were getting closer and closer to this insertion of the furin cleavage site

01:58:46.720 into sars-like viruses now in 2018 came this proposal as always this was a highly classified proposal

01:58:58.560 we only learned about it after the fact by a whistleblower we never even would have learned

01:59:05.200 about it even in all of the commotion of the pandemic but for a whistleblower a brave whistleblower

01:59:13.360 in the department of defense who said the public needs to see this and when you look at the diffuse

01:59:19.680 proposal really you say holy shit because on page 10 it says we have collected more than 180 previously

01:59:32.160 unreported beta coronaviruses and on page 11 it says we're going to test them for whether they have

01:59:40.640 a proteolytic cleavage site which is a furin cleavage site and if they don't we're going to insert 0.85

01:59:46.800 a furin cleavage site into them it's the goddamn cookbook for how to make this virus so here comes 0.98

01:59:59.280 the defense department turned it down supposedly i mean probably did and then comes the question well 0.97

02:00:07.440 well so what happened well the people that wrote that little cookbook said not us we didn't do

02:00:15.200 anything like that no it got turned down nothing to look at here and um there are all i know because

02:00:25.520 people have told me oh jeff it's not just that it got turned down they had done the work even before

02:00:32.320 they submitted the grant proposal that's not uncommon in science which is you do a lot of the

02:00:36.640 work beforehand so i've heard that on good authority i can't verify it personally um and

02:00:45.920 there are so many strands now that say yeah something really screwy was going on for example there's a

02:00:55.600 very weird paper weird to me by uh barrack and the head of what's called rocky mountain laboratory which

02:01:05.760 is a nih laboratory under fauci's authority that reports this completely bizarre uh finding and the

02:01:17.440 finding is sounds very technical but it says the wuhan institute of virology type one virus does not

02:01:26.640 infect egyptian fruit bats okay that's the the title so you say so what the hell is that what that is is

02:01:35.200 that obviously in 2019 and 2018 they were doing experiments using viruses from wuhan

02:01:43.200 in the rocky mountain labs with their collection of bats okay so one theory and the bats in uh rocky

02:01:54.560 mountain labs is uh called an egyptian fruit bat it's not the kind of bat that carries this virus

02:02:01.040 in china which is in yunnan which is a different kind of bat but they tried it in rocky mountain lab 0.82

02:02:08.400 i scratch my head and said what the hell we have rocky mount lab doing experiments with wuhan viruses

02:02:16.640 in montana in nih labs with ralph barrack who is one of the principal investigators of the insert the

02:02:23.760 furin cleavage site into the virus i'd like to know more about that thank you isn't that curious then there

02:02:31.680 are other scientists that have pieces of this puzzle so the answer is we don't know exactly one theory is

02:02:38.720 that it was concocted in the u.s and sent over to wuhan to this wuhan institute of virology for testing

02:02:48.400 in their bat in their bat collection which is the chinese bats rather than the egyptian fruit bats

02:02:54.560 that's plausible that's one person's theory there are other theories that even a related research group

02:03:02.560 uh german and dutch may have played a role because they have in wuhan research but when the virus

02:03:11.520 broke out in that uh period at the end of uh 2019 early 2020 there's commotion among the scientists

02:03:22.560 what the hell is this where'd this come from oh my god did we do this uh how'd this escape or whatever

02:03:28.800 nobody knows of course so they start having secret calls and one of the most uh important of these calls

02:03:38.080 was on february 1st 2020 that was then uh uh memorialized by one of the participants in a long memo

02:03:49.600 all of which became public through a freedom of information act subsequently because our government

02:03:56.080 has lied to us about every single moment of this from the start hasn't told us anything about any of

02:04:02.720 this it's all whistleblowers or freedom of information act that's the only way we know

02:04:07.520 any of what i'm describing to you right now no one has told the truth at all so uh on the february 1st call

02:04:16.720 the scientists say oh god this looks like a lab stuff one of them says i can't figure out how this could

02:04:25.040 have ever come out of nature and they're all looking at the furin cleavage site because they know this

02:04:30.320 group of scientists knows that's the object of research that's the goal it's never been seen

02:04:35.120 before in uh in a virus like this it's you know it's it's the signature right there i did this and uh

02:04:43.520 four days later that group authors the first draft of a paper called the proximal origins of sars cove 2

02:04:56.880 that says it's a natural virus the same people wrote it the same people who privately said it's

02:05:05.440 out of a lab most likely so it's just that is provably a cover-up then that's a cover-up this paper

02:05:11.040 is a fraud it has not been retracted until today and it's a fraud where did it run it ran in nature

02:05:18.560 medicine in march 20 which i think is is considered one of the most credible medical journals when i

02:05:25.680 read it when it came out it was i think the most cited paper in biology or in medicine by far in

02:05:35.920 2020 everyone wanted to know where this virus came from uh i read it and i went around knowingly

02:05:43.120 telling everyone oh it's not a it's natural you have to read proximal origins of sars cove 2 because

02:05:50.320 it never occurred to you they would lie in nature medicine because this is the top of the heap

02:05:56.640 of the scientific journals and the scientific establishment the top nature you know there are two

02:06:03.760 great science magazines in the world that have a a history that is so deep one is science that's

02:06:10.480 the u.s one and the second is nature which is the british one and nature uh is uh the one that

02:06:17.360 uh uh originally published darwin and uh it's you know it's so illustrious and i was so smug you know

02:06:26.000 oh you didn't read nature uh sars cove 2 proximal origins because you believe that stuff when it's

02:06:32.560 written there it's a fraud that paper and it it stands to this day

02:06:36.800 to this day they have not retracted it there is last week a call by several scientists to the editor

02:06:52.080 a very clever one calling for its retraction because this is interesting uh all in the weeds but it's

02:07:00.640 like everything we're talking about the the the non-stop line the paper was to as an important

02:07:08.240 extent honchoed by somebody named jeremy farrar who at the time was the director of british welcome trust

02:07:18.880 which is a huge uh foundation that supports biomedical research and farrar was working with fauci

02:07:27.360 uh to make it look like nature uh and so he was part of this uh he was part of this group but he's not

02:07:37.200 a named author and at the bottom of the article this more details than you want to know but at the bottom

02:07:45.040 of the article it thanks welcome trust well under the rules of science and under the rules of a journal

02:07:51.360 if there isn't a contributor uh who financed the thing but is not mentioned as a contributor to the

02:07:58.800 article that is per se a violation of uh of uh conflict of interest of standards and that wasn't

02:08:08.240 revealed so just last week a group of very illustrious virologists called for the retraction of this i've

02:08:17.200 called for the retraction of it because it's an outright fraud because we have slack messages and

02:08:22.880 other email messages and uh other uh other uh e-messaging uh that says uh i don't really believe

02:08:30.960 this or you know it's in other words it's clearly it's clearly a fraudulent paper but they

02:08:38.720 they they're not moving to this moment but how can you so there's a lot of debate about a pandemic

02:08:46.080 treaty who is of course pushing it lots of countries are as well as you well know how can you prepare

02:08:54.720 for a new pandemic without establishing the origin of the most recent pandemic and and more than that

02:09:01.280 we're going to have another pandemic if it came out of a lab they're still doing this work it's not as

02:09:06.240 if they said oh oh my god we really blew it uh now we stop gain of function research there's gain of

02:09:12.640 function research going on all over the place so i mean and interestingly tucker you know last year

02:09:19.040 uh almost almost like monty python i mean but it's so serious uh boston university put out a paper

02:09:28.880 paper based on gain of function for uh manipulating sars sars cove 2 and uh and nih says uh you didn't

02:09:41.840 ask for approval before doing that experiment and and boston university says we don't have to ask for 0.97

02:09:48.400 approval it's not on your grant we just we're doing it like we want and it shows we got a shit show going 0.86

02:09:56.080 on in this country right now if a university thinks it can do whatever it wants and if nih has a 0.77

02:10:03.360 different opinion and we have no rules and they're doing work on dangerous pathogens yeah we're gonna

02:10:09.040 have another pandemic if even if this one didn't come from it we're this this line of work is really

02:10:17.760 dangerous and who's watching it well we don't know because it's dod because it's confidential because

02:10:26.000 no one tells us anything and interestingly you know now the house uh investigation committee is trying

02:10:34.800 to get at some of this the democrats completely surrounded fauci and said we don't want to have a

02:10:41.360 look at this uh and i said this is republican grandstanding it's nuts what could be less partisan

02:10:49.680 than where this virus came from and we can't even get democrats in the house now i think a few of them are

02:10:58.320 coming along but for a time it was completely partisan the republicans could investigate in the house

02:11:05.760 but in the senate where the democrats are controlled they were saying no and uh ran paul asked me to

02:11:12.000 come in and meet his counterpart uh who was the chair of the committee uh peters and i did and now by the

02:11:20.480 way they are moving in the senate because you got these bright red lights flashing holy hell let's find out

02:11:28.880 what happened is it strange to uh i'll wake up one day and all of a sudden see like actual threats to

02:11:37.040 the existence of humanity right there nuclear war bio warfare um possibly ai yeah uh but just right there

02:11:49.200 i mean what what big picture what is this did you ever think you would after living in the most

02:11:55.600 prosperous country in the world your entire life find yourself in a place where the country you live in

02:12:00.960 is basically causing um you know the potential extinction of of humanity you know i think it's it's really uh

02:12:13.040 true and important to understand that since 1945 we've been living this way and we don't know it

02:12:21.200 uh we're barely aware of it but the ability to screw things up in this world is very high

02:12:29.440 the ability to have terrible accidents oops i where'd that virus come from yeah uh the ability to have a

02:12:37.200 nuclear war by even by accident but much less when you're in the face of your opponent and talking

02:12:45.360 about defeating them and so forth a war between two nuclear superpowers that we have normalized

02:12:53.120 yeah oh we're not at war we're just feeding them all the weapons and they can and the british who are 0.91

02:12:58.400 the worst at this yeah they can use the weapons wherever they want uh you know no no constraint no

02:13:04.320 control we've been living this way but we don't know it because like everything else the narrative doesn't

02:13:13.920 permit it one day uh biden uh said in i think it was the fall of 2022 uh you know this is pretty

02:13:26.800 dangerous we could be on a path to nuclear armageddon he didn't say that in a speech to the american people

02:13:32.720 because he doesn't give speeches to the american people he doesn't talk to the american people he

02:13:37.040 doesn't have press conferences uh he said it at some fundraiser as usual and then someone reported

02:13:43.760 it what was the reaction of the press the next day almost to a paper the reaction was how dare he say

02:13:52.880 these things how dare he scare the people how dare he say a word like armageddon uh there was i think

02:13:58.640 an editorial in the wall street journal if i remember correctly you know that this unforgivable

02:14:02.960 this kind of slip of the president of the united states so it's deciding for a moment blurted out

02:14:10.400 the truth no doubt by accident no doubt because he was in some fundraiser probably trying to impress

02:14:15.760 some donor uh but the reaction wasn't oh my god what does this mean how do we consider this let's go

02:14:24.400 back and think about unprovoked unprovoked unprovoked and maybe we could decide how to step a little bit

02:14:30.000 back from from the cliff and um no absolutely the opposite completely the opposite and i've seen

02:14:40.160 i mean not only you could have a pandemic that kills an estimated 20 million people and not really

02:14:46.720 care to find out where it came from you can be on the brink of nuclear war we can have ukraine 0.69

02:14:51.840 shelling the zaporizhia nuclear power plant do you know our newspapers won't say that it's ukraine

02:14:58.240 shelling the power plant all they will and ukraine is shelling the nuclear power plant i can reveal

02:15:04.640 uh as if it's a as if it's a surprise because the russians are inside the power plant and the ukrainians

02:15:10.960 are trying to take back the power plant and so these shells come to the nuclear power plant and then our

02:15:18.480 lovely moving crazy our lovely newspapers say each side accuses the other of shelling the nuclear power

02:15:25.520 plant and i happen to know for you know the reasons that i know some of these things that the of course

02:15:33.920 it's ukraine shelling a plant that the russians are inside of not russians shelling the plant that

02:15:41.120 but you can't get officialdom to say this you can't get the newspapers to say this that's pretty serious

02:15:49.280 to be shelling a nuclear power plant i mean are you out of your i put that on the list that we've

02:15:55.600 been adding to are you out of your mind right don't do that but they're doing it in in the country in

02:16:02.480 the world that's actually had a profound nuclear accident exactly you might mention that maybe they

02:16:06.960 would know something about it that there would be some reticence about so that leads to my last

02:16:12.320 sincere question which you may or may not answer but um you know you're telling the truth about things

02:16:17.920 that are big they're big things like the biggest things and in a world where you're just absolutely

02:16:23.680 as you've noted repeatedly and correctly you're just not allowed to do that and you're telling

02:16:28.000 the truth about people who don't care about the deaths of millions who have caused the deaths of

02:16:32.160 millions so are you worried because you do have credibility you're not a crank and your job and

02:16:38.480 your career give you prima facie credibility it's a big thing for you to say these things are you

02:16:43.520 worried about the risks to you isn't really i'm worried about the risks to me of a nuclear war

02:16:50.720 for sure i really am i i spend a lot of time with diplomats i really like diplomats by the way it's

02:17:00.960 even when you know countries hate each other or war good diplomats smile and talk to each other and

02:17:08.160 one could say you know oh how cynical or but it's actually quite nice i believe the human touch is

02:17:14.960 what can keep us alive actually i don't think it's a naive idea uh it's actually a quite deep idea

02:17:22.160 russia has one of the greatest diplomats i've ever seen i think lavrov is absolutely remarkable remarkable

02:17:28.000 and i've known him for 30 years have you really yeah it's funny he in a in a fair world in a meritocratic

02:17:33.440 world he'd be very famous even if you disagree with everything he said because he's so obviously

02:17:38.160 smart he's astoundingly smart and astoundingly capable uh and uh and he's astoundingly someone

02:17:48.880 that we should be speaking with i agree to find an answer to this so the thing that um makes it if i were

02:17:57.360 you know shouting in the wilderness and uh just felt it's insane no one's listening i'd have a very

02:18:05.760 different reaction from the one that i actually carry day by day almost everyone i talk to around the

02:18:13.680 world is worried shares the things we're talking about understands the risks makes you feel completely

02:18:23.280 normal not abnormal in any of this says please keep doing this can you find a way to talk here

02:18:30.240 or there i've spoken twice in the u.n security council or testified twice in the u.n security

02:18:35.680 council in the last two years i want to make the diplomacy work because our lives depend on it and we

02:18:44.720 we we stopped all diplomacy in the united states all of it except what we call speaking with our friends

02:18:54.000 and allies but diplomacy is not speaking with your friends and allies diplomacy is speaking with your

02:19:01.280 counterparts even your adversaries that's what diplomacy is and we've got to get it back do you

02:19:07.760 think the average amer i said that was my last question but i do have one more do you think the average

02:19:11.760 american even sort of inform people has any sense at all of how close we are to annihilation i think

02:19:19.280 people are worried and uh people are not happy campers and people do not agree with the foreign policy of

02:19:30.000 this administration but people are also very confused because we don't hear anything clear

02:19:36.560 uh except when you interview president putin and we get to hear what he says and and uh think of

02:19:45.040 i mean that was a monumental occasion tucker and an extraordinarily important one but how rare it is and

02:19:52.800 that's what made it also so extraordinary because you're not supposed to do that we're not supposed to

02:19:58.240 listen to that so i think americans are uh they know that something's wrong they don't know exactly how

02:20:08.160 could they know uh what exactly is wrong the level of trust in government is extraordinarily low that low

02:20:16.080 trust has been uh unfortunately uh amply deserved because our government lies and lies and lies and it

02:20:23.200 doesn't even try to tell the truth anymore it tries to make a narrative uh so i think people uh

02:20:31.440 people sense something seriously wrong but god i hope uh you know our lives are in the hands of a few

02:20:39.440 people uh and uh they better learn some prudence because they have not had it for a long time

02:20:45.440 uh and they don't even understand what it is to talk to a counterpart and my uh absolute uh

02:20:55.040 core bottom line is until biden speaks directly with putin and starts talking our lives are deeply at

02:21:03.760 risk uh and uh it's unimaginable to me that we are in open war as we are and we're not even trying to

02:21:13.200 find the path to peace right now and we have crazy statements that the president of finland said uh

02:21:22.080 the path to peace is through the battlefield these people don't understand anything and uh i was just

02:21:31.440 going to mention two quick things uh in closing you know one i spent a lot of my life studying the

02:21:38.720 cuban missile crisis and its aftermath and i wrote a book about kennedy's peace initiative in 1963

02:21:47.280 which was remarkable because he actually in the height of the cold war reached the partial

02:21:53.920 nuclear test ban treaty with khrushchev and they both knew we had to pull back from the brink because

02:21:59.360 they both had had advisors that would have led us to nuclear annihilation and they were just completely

02:22:05.120 completely shocked as the two people who had saved the world but just barely how close we had come

02:22:12.800 but one of the things that most people don't know about the cuban missile crisis is that even

02:22:18.400 when kennedy and khrushchev had reached an agreement we almost had nuclear war after that event because of

02:22:26.480 the disabled soviet submarine do you know this event because it's it's one of the most remarkable

02:22:33.520 little known uh facts of modern history and it's worth understanding after kennedy and khrushchev reached the

02:22:45.360 agreement to end the cuban missile crisis kennedy uh removing the nuclear weapons from turkey and

02:22:53.680 soviet union removing the nuclear weapons from cuba and the u.s promising never again to try to invade cuba

02:23:00.880 uh there was a disabled soviet sub at the bottom of the caribbean that had been sent over during the

02:23:10.080 crisis and it blew a gasket as it were and temperatures inside 120 degrees and the sailors uh

02:23:19.600 the sailors fainting and the ship deeply disabled and this was 1962 so the communications did not exist the

02:23:28.560 ship was out of communication they had no idea what was going on so they decided to surface and as they

02:23:35.280 surfaced uh american navy pilots were dropping uh charges on the sub and it's not absolutely sure but one

02:23:46.800 story is that uh that the uh navy pilot one navy pilot for fun was dropping live grenades on

02:23:56.800 the sub as it was surfacing rather than depth charges and the uh pilot thought that they were under attack

02:24:05.040 and that there was a war above the surface now this was a the lead sub of a squadron of seven

02:24:12.640 in the caribbean and it was the one sub in that squadron that had nuclear tip submarines uh nuclear

02:24:19.760 tip torpedoes excuse me and under u.s doctrine any attack by a nuclear weapon was to be met by the full

02:24:29.600 force of the u.s nuclear arsenal with an attack on across the soviet union china and all of the eastern

02:24:37.680 european countries estimate 700 million dead uh and that was to happen with any nuclear attack and curtis

02:24:45.200 lemay was the uh was the uh head of the u.s air force at the time and he couldn't wait i i think it's

02:24:52.480 fair to say yes it's fair to say so what happened was this skipper uh the commander of the vessel ordered

02:25:03.680 the nuclear torpedo torpedo into the torpedo bay to be fired because he thought the ship was under attack

02:25:12.240 and by miracle a guy named arkhipov who was the person who saved the world whose name nobody knows and

02:25:23.040 i'm pretty sure i have the name right uh was a party official that had a higher rank than the uh

02:25:33.280 the the ship's captain and said i don't think that's a good idea i think we should surface and he

02:25:39.760 countermanded the order at the last moment and the ship surfaced and they found out there was no war

02:25:47.280 and no crisis and that was the end of it and we came within a moment of a full nuclear annihilation

02:25:58.160 now that's a true story if people want to read about it in detail the most remarkable book about

02:26:05.040 this is a book by the late historian martin sherwin called gambling with armageddon which is a

02:26:11.440 absolutely phenomenal work and martin sherwin as some people may recall is the historian who's the

02:26:18.080 co-author of oppenheimer which became the yes the screenplay he's a wonderful historian who died a few

02:26:24.160 years ago and he tells this story in unbelievable uh riveting detail now i take this not only as a

02:26:36.400 literal event but as a metaphor for our reality which is something can always go wrong stay away from the

02:26:46.240 cliff exactly stay away from the cliff this is how close we are talk to president putin negotiate with

02:26:57.120 china make a two-state solution uh to stop the war in the middle east stop carrying on like you run the 0.65

02:27:05.840 world because you don't thank you for this and i hope that you are heard everywhere well thank you

02:27:14.880 thanks for all your great leadership in this tucker because you're playing a huge huge role just bumbling

02:27:20.480 along but that that's the greatest kind i've ever heard so thank you thanks for listening to tucker

02:27:26.560 carlson show if you enjoyed it you can go to tucker carlson.com to see everything that we have made

02:27:32.000 the complete library tucker carlson.com

The Tucker Carlson Show - May 28, 2024

Jeffrey Sachs： The Untold History of the Cold War, CIA Coups Around the World, and COVID’s Origin

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