The Tucker Carlson Show - Jeffrey Sachs： Trump’s Plan to Stop WWIII, CIA Coups, and Warning of the Next Financial Crisis

00:00:00.000 The big tech companies censor our content.

00:00:03.060 I hate to tell you that it's still going on in 2024,

00:00:05.260 but you know what they can't censor?

00:00:07.100 Live events.

00:00:08.440 And that's why we are hitting the road on a fall tour

00:00:11.020 for the entire month of September, coast to coast.

00:00:14.860 We'll be in cities across the United States.

00:00:17.200 We'll be in Phoenix with Russell Brand,

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00:00:51.920 You can get tickets at tuckercarlson.com.

00:00:55.000 Hope to see you there.

00:01:00.000 Welcome to Tucker Carlson Show.

00:01:06.780 It's become pretty clear that the mainstream media are dying.

00:01:09.680 They can't die quickly enough.

00:01:11.180 And there's a reason they're dying because they lie.

00:01:13.620 They lied so much.

00:01:15.140 It killed them.

00:01:16.260 We're not doing that.

00:01:17.340 Tucker Carlson dot com.

00:01:18.220 We promise to bring you the most honest content,

00:01:20.580 the most honest interviews we can without fear or favor.

00:01:24.680 Here's the latest.

00:01:26.440 So what, okay, what is happening in Ukraine right now?

00:01:32.120 The coverage of the war has sort of fallen off the front page in the United States,

00:01:36.100 partly because of the election, I assume,

00:01:37.620 but partly because there are probably developments that our media don't want to talk about.

00:01:42.560 But what is the state of it right now, would you say?

00:01:45.100 Well, Ukraine's losing the war on the battlefield.

00:01:47.040 That's the basic point.

00:01:49.080 There's been a bit of a diversion with an incursion of some brigades of Ukraine and NATO mercenaries,

00:02:00.380 so-called, into a fairly rural northern part of Russia.

00:02:05.180 That got a lot of attention, but it's militarily meaningless.

00:02:08.780 Because on the real battlefront, Ukraine has been attrited, in other words.

00:02:15.860 They just don't have the people.

00:02:18.960 They don't have the weapon systems.

00:02:21.620 They don't have the air defenses.

00:02:23.600 And so Russia is continuing.

00:02:26.780 Russia has said all along, we can negotiate, we can stop, but we have issues.

00:02:31.460 And the West has, and the U.S., and especially Britain, no, no, we're going to win.

00:02:37.960 We're going to win.

00:02:38.880 So Ukraine loses 1,000 to 2,000 soldiers a day, dead and wounded.

00:02:48.340 A day?

00:02:48.920 Yeah, a day.

00:02:50.140 This is a terrible, terrible onslaught.

00:02:53.920 But nobody counts the dead in the Kiev leadership, or in Washington, or in London, or in Warsaw.

00:03:02.620 And so this continues because no one wants to take any responsibility in the West for bringing it to a close.

00:03:10.660 So, but there is kind of a forcing action with this election, because if there is a change in administration,

00:03:17.500 then presumably there will be a change, of course, in U.S. policy toward Ukraine.

00:03:21.680 I mean, I hope, anyway, if Trump wins.

00:03:23.580 So does that, that provides an incentive to the current administration to, I don't know, what kind of scenario does that set up?

00:03:32.500 Well, there's nothing really that this administration going out is going to do.

00:03:39.160 I don't think the president probably is in any mental state to lead anything at this point.

00:03:46.900 So I think we're kind of on autopilot, which is a very bad place to be in general, in a dangerous world.

00:03:56.340 There are no active discussions that we know of between the United States and Russia, which is the essence of the sine qua non of ending this war and ending it on a responsible basis.

00:04:10.980 This is a war between the United States and Russia.

00:04:14.180 It's not a war between Ukraine and Russia.

00:04:16.900 This is the most basic point.

00:04:18.780 This is a war provoked by the U.S. with U.S. intentions, with U.S. aims for NATO enlargement.

00:04:27.060 And it would take a president that understands the basics of this and why this was so wrongheaded and such an absurd and tragic idea that dates back 30 years now inside the U.S. security.

00:04:48.780 State to bring it to a close.

00:04:51.000 But Biden was not that person, clearly.

00:04:54.040 Biden bought into this whole reckless approach 30 years ago already and has been part of this tragic adventure that was somehow going to bring down Russia.

00:05:09.220 But in the end, it's destroying Ukraine.

00:05:11.780 So, yes, we need a new president and we need a president that honestly understands what this has all been about.

00:05:23.440 And the one thing that we've discussed and the one thing that's absolutely true is the American people have never been told what this is all about.

00:05:31.620 They've been told exactly the opposite.

00:05:33.720 And I don't think even now there's an appreciation that NATO forces, clearly U.S. forces in some form, federal employees or federal contractors are fighting in Russia, fighting Russia.

00:05:46.220 Oh, this is absolutely clear.

00:05:48.440 We're at war with, we have a hot war with Russia right now.

00:05:50.720 We are in a hot war because it's not only our financing, our equipment, our aims, our objectives, our strategy, our advice, but it's our personnel on the ground.

00:06:03.880 They are not necessarily in U.S. uniform.

00:06:08.700 Sometimes they're called mercenaries.

00:06:10.360 Sometimes they're just not identified, but they are calling the shots and Russia knows it.

00:06:16.340 And that by itself is a big reason for alarm.

00:06:23.260 Well, especially because Russia doesn't need to lob a nuke into Poland or Europe or the United States to fight back.

00:06:30.840 Like, Russia could disable critical American infrastructure without, you know, being obvious about it.

00:06:37.980 Like, we're very vulnerable if Russia decides to strike at us.

00:06:42.380 Well, the horrible thing about this war from the start was that it could never conceivably have made sense for the United States to cross Russia's red lines because either Russia would win on the battlefield as it's doing or Russia would lose on the battlefield and then escalate.

00:07:05.120 And the escalation could be in many forms, like you say, it could be attacks on U.S. interests around the world through proxies, or it could be as the Russians made clear.

00:07:21.960 If they're losing tactical nuclear weapons to start, uh, and, uh, with, uh, uh, escalation always in sight if, uh, Russia was really profoundly threatened.

00:07:36.040 So in the end, there was no path to success of a venture that started back in the Clinton administration, continued with Bush, Obama, Trump, and Biden, which was to push NATO to Ukraine, despite the clearest possible, brightest, biggest red line.

00:08:05.300 That Russia could convey in peace time, which is don't do that.

00:08:11.680 And Russia's attitude towards NATO and Ukraine was exactly analogous to what our attitude would be to a Russian military base on the Rio Grande in Mexico.

00:08:23.240 It would be, don't try that.

00:08:26.360 Yes.

00:08:26.540 And, uh, this is obvious.

00:08:28.680 It's not subtle.

00:08:30.260 Uh, it has been expressed for more than 30 years,

00:08:34.140 but now we know, and more and more comes out and will come out, but Clinton approved this plan in 1994, that NATO would go East, including to Ukraine.

00:08:50.120 Uh, as big Brzezinski laid it out in 1997, uh, in an article, which I always asserted was not Brzezinski's idea,

00:09:01.020 but his way of telling his, uh, his colleagues, uh, in the civilian sector, let's say what was already decided.

00:09:09.760 And that is that, yes, of course we will go all the way to Ukraine.

00:09:14.200 It became public in 2008 when, uh, George W. Bush Jr., uh, pushed at the Bucharest NATO summit, uh, the commitment to enlarge NATO to Ukraine.

00:09:30.100 It became, uh, a cause of war in February, 2014, when the U.S. conspired to overthrow a Ukrainian president that was against NATO enlargement who wanted Ukraine to be neutral because that president understood,

00:09:48.120 if you are Ukraine between East and West, try to keep your head down and stay neutral, uh, and he understood that.

00:09:56.820 So we had to overthrow him, uh, and, uh, the U.S. did, and that's when the war started.

00:10:01.840 So this was predictably a failure on every scenario, the particular scenario that is unfolding right now for the moment is, uh, ironically, perhaps the safer one, uh, which is that Russia's winning on the battlefield.

00:10:20.060 Yes.

00:10:20.780 Because if Russia were losing on the battlefield, we would be seeing escalation to nuclear war and everyone in punditry that says, oh, don't worry about that.

00:10:36.040 Uh, that's a bluff.

00:10:38.540 I profoundly resent the ignorance of those people.

00:10:44.920 Generally, when people are ignorant, I don't resent it.

00:10:47.780 Uh, I try to help, but I, I resent the ignorance when it endangers my grandchildren.

00:10:55.380 That's it.

00:10:56.140 And they endanger my grandchildren by saying, don't worry about nuclear war.

00:11:01.460 Ah, that's a bluff.

00:11:02.900 And that I don't want to hear from anybody because anyone that says that understands nothing about the reality of our world today.

00:11:12.000 The people who say that I feel exactly the same way and I'm outraged by it and, but also distressed by it.

00:11:17.780 Because of what it says about our leadership class.

00:11:19.740 But I noticed that a lot of people who say that are former U.S. military officers working in some think tank, you know, Hudson or EI or CSIS or whatever.

00:11:29.640 When, you know, all these.

00:11:30.420 They're paid to say it.

00:11:31.640 They are paid to say it.

00:11:32.580 But you also wonder where in the officer class are the wise people.

00:11:36.320 You know, who in the Pentagon has a realistic assessment of risk and a deep concern for the future of the United States?

00:11:42.720 Where are those people?

00:11:44.120 There, no doubt, are some.

00:11:46.980 But it's always a, uh, a close call.

00:11:50.520 Because we've known throughout, uh, the nuclear era, there have been hotheads, uh, irrational people, uh, vulgar people who have called for nuclear war.

00:12:05.300 We have come extraordinarily close to nuclear war and we've had people in the U.S. military all along, uh, who called for first strikes on various occasions, uh, against the Soviet Union.

00:12:20.180 Which, uh, in, uh, any, uh, uh, plausible scenario could well have ended the world, uh, and those people were in positions of authority.

00:12:31.500 Uh, the, the case that I've studied, uh, most closely in, in my life is the Cuban Missile Crisis.

00:12:37.840 I wrote a book about the aftermath of the Cuban Missile Crisis and Kennedy's diplomacy in 1963 to pull back from the brink.

00:12:48.220 But in the Cuban Missile Crisis, uh, almost every one of President Kennedy's advisors said, strike.

00:12:57.080 Uh, and there is very good reason to believe that that would have led to a, uh, full-scale nuclear war that would have ended civilization.

00:13:09.040 Kennedy was, in that case, almost the sole restraint within the senior U.S. leadership.

00:13:16.720 So we came extraordinarily close and there have been other occasions where we have come extraordinarily close.

00:13:24.640 Uh, we have, uh, I don't know if we discussed it, uh, before, but, uh, it's one of my go-to, uh, emblems for trying to, uh, help people understand the situation.

00:13:40.200 The atomic scientists, uh, who were, uh, dead worried about this from the beginning of the atomic age in 1945, uh, established this emblematic doomsday clock in 1947 in the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists.

00:13:58.660 And what this is, is a, an expert view of how close or how far we are from nuclear war.

00:14:07.400 We are the closest ever to nuclear Armageddon today during the entire period since 1947, according to this doomsday clock.

00:14:18.640 The doomsday clock started a few minutes from midnight, midnight, meaning doomsday, uh, meaning Armageddon, uh, and it went farther away from midnight or closer to midnight, depending on how the cold war was unfolding.

00:14:34.260 Whether we were at the height of tensions or, uh, uh, during a period of, uh, some, uh, pullback from the tensions.

00:14:44.200 Well, suffice it to say, uh, that at the end of the cold war one, uh, because, and maybe it never really ended because the U S did never really changed its attitudes towards Russia.

00:14:59.980 But, uh, at the end of the Soviet Union in December, 1991 and the beginning of 1992, and with the, uh, arrival of the Clinton administration, the atomic scientists put the clock at 17 minutes from midnight.

00:15:18.420 That's the farthest that it has ever been since the beginning of the, the nuclear, uh, arms age.

00:15:26.520 And every president since then has brought us closer to Armageddon, uh, Clinton, uh, Bush, Obama, Trump, Biden, everyone, uh, inherited a clock that they then pushed.

00:15:46.260 And I think through U S provocations and policies, all these wars of choice, all these invasions of the middle East, uh, uh, all this NATO enlargement, all of the disdain for anything Russia or China says, how dare they even express an opinion?

00:16:06.180 We're the only ones that can have an opinion, uh, the disdain for Iran evil, uh, this view has led to an aggressiveness and a hubris that has pushed us closer and closer to the brink.

00:16:23.180 Because the whole attitude of the U S since 1992 was, we don't have to listen to anybody.

00:16:31.400 We don't have to listen to Russia.

00:16:34.100 Russia's a gas station with nuclear weapons was, uh, of course the very unclever phrase, but the idea was, yeah, humiliate them, humiliate them.

00:16:44.380 They only have 6,000 nuclear warheads.

00:16:46.620 What could possibly go wrong?

00:16:48.160 Uh, of course, the way we treat China, the casual talk in Washington these days about, yeah, the likely war with China, you have people in service generals talking about, yeah, there could be a war with China in the next two or three years.

00:17:03.720 Are, are these people mad out of, are they out of their minds?

00:17:08.500 Do they have any idea what they're doing?

00:17:10.700 Uh, but typically, uh, and, and the theory of our system is we have a president civilian who is responsible for keeping our country safe, not pushing us to the brink.

00:17:25.640 But of course we don't have such a president right now.

00:17:28.380 Uh, even when he was functioning, he wasn't keeping us from the brink.

00:17:32.320 Uh, he was making declarations that for God's sake, that man must go speaking of the president of Russia as if that's the American choice.

00:17:42.240 Well, that's not something one should say about even an adversary, but a counterpart that happens to be the second nuclear superpower.

00:17:53.720 But that's how we have acted and, uh, Biden walking off, uh, soon after his meeting with the Chinese president, Xi Jinping, and then muttering, I think it was, uh, as usual at some kind of donor gathering.

00:18:11.280 Oh, he's a dictator, this, the idea of, uh, the arrogance and the disdain, uh, and the, uh, silliness, uh, but the attempt to humiliate the counterparts.

00:18:28.900 That's why in this doomsday clock, we are now 90 seconds to midnight.

00:18:35.420 And from all that I see and know, I just got back from, uh, an extended trip through Asia and Europe and talked to many leaders along the way.

00:18:46.800 There's worry everywhere.

00:18:48.840 Uh, there is absolute worry everywhere.

00:18:52.540 Every leader I spoke to, and it was a number of them.

00:18:56.220 What is happening with your country?

00:18:58.420 Are we being pushed to war?

00:19:00.180 Why do we have to choose between having trade with China or having trade with the United States or having trade with Russia?

00:19:08.280 Why are sanctions on Russia applying to us and breaking our economy?

00:19:13.560 I spoke to leaders all over Asia about these issues.

00:19:17.720 And the answer is there is no good answer to this.

00:19:22.420 And there is no, uh, way to say to them, uh, don't worry, everything's under control because it's not.

00:19:30.840 Most of us, well, actually all of us go through our daily lives using all sorts of, quote, free technology without paying attention to why it's, quote, free.

00:19:40.320 Who's paying for this and how?

00:19:42.780 Think about it for a minute.

00:19:43.980 Think about your free email account, the free messenger system used to chat with your friends,

00:19:48.920 the free weather app or game app you open up and never think about.

00:19:53.780 It's all free.

00:19:55.260 But is it?

00:19:56.300 No, it's not free.

00:19:58.760 These companies aren't developing expensive products and just giving them to you because they love you.

00:20:04.480 They're doing it because their programs take all your information.

00:20:07.460 They hoover up your data, private, personal data, and sell it to data brokers and the government.

00:20:13.820 And all of those people who are not your friends are very interested in manipulating you and your personal political and financial decisions.

00:20:22.780 It's scary as hell.

00:20:24.260 And it's happening out in the open without anybody saying anything about it.

00:20:28.100 This is a huge problem.

00:20:29.640 And we've been talking about this problem to our friend, Eric Prince, for years.

00:20:33.420 Someone needs to fix this.

00:20:34.940 And he and his partners have.

00:20:36.600 And now we're partners with them.

00:20:38.020 And their company is called Unplugged.

00:20:40.220 It's not a software company.

00:20:41.680 It's a hardware company.

00:20:43.240 They actually make a phone.

00:20:45.200 The phone is called Unplugged.

00:20:47.300 And it's more than that.

00:20:48.700 The purpose of the phone is to protect you from having your life stolen, your data stolen.

00:20:56.520 It's designed from a privacy-first perspective.

00:21:00.460 It's got an operating system that they made.

00:21:02.440 It's called Messenger and other apps that help you take charge of your personal data and prevent it from getting passed around to data brokers and government agencies that will use it to manipulate you.

00:21:11.720 So, Unplugged is to its customers.

00:21:13.360 It's called Unplugged.

00:21:13.400 Unplugged is to its customers.

00:21:14.780 They will promise you, and they mean it, that your data are not being sold or monetized or shared with anyone.

00:21:20.980 From basics like its custom Libertas operating system, which they wrote, which is designed from the very first day to keep your personal data on your device.

00:21:29.940 It also has, believe it or not, a true on-off switch

00:21:33.540 that shuts off the power.

00:21:34.680 It actually disconnects your battery

00:21:36.180 and ensures that your microphone and your camera

00:21:39.400 are turned off completely when you want them to be.

00:21:42.540 So they're not spying on you in, say, your bedroom,

00:21:44.680 which your iPhone is.

00:21:46.180 That's a fact.

00:21:47.820 So it is a great way, one of the few ways,

00:21:50.100 to actually protect yourself from big tech

00:21:52.140 and big government, to reclaim your personal privacy.

00:21:55.580 Without privacy, there is no freedom.

00:21:57.100 The Unplugged phone, you can get a $25 discount

00:22:00.240 when you use the code Tucker at the checkout.

00:22:03.020 So go to unplugged.com slash Tucker to get yours today.

00:22:07.460 Highly recommended.

00:22:22.000 And there's no, I don't think,

00:22:24.080 widespread understanding of this in the United States,

00:22:26.040 how quickly things around the world are changing.

00:22:29.380 The extent to which the U.S. government

00:22:30.820 is driving these changes

00:22:31.800 and the overwhelming sense from outside America

00:22:35.680 that America is in decline because of these decisions.

00:22:38.140 Like, we're hurting ourselves

00:22:39.420 in addition to a lot of other people.

00:22:42.000 But here it seems like

00:22:43.660 everybody in charge wants a war with Iran.

00:22:47.320 And I just know from experience,

00:22:48.920 watching the Iraq invasion,

00:22:50.520 which I never thought was going to happen,

00:22:51.760 watching the current war with Russia,

00:22:53.060 which I never thought was going to happen,

00:22:54.880 that when everyone in D.C. starts saying,

00:22:56.440 hey, let's have a war with somebody,

00:22:57.560 you're probably going to have a war with that person.

00:22:59.640 Are we going to have a war with Iran?

00:23:02.840 Israel just wants that war so much.

00:23:06.060 And the Israel lobby is very powerful.

00:23:09.960 So we could.

00:23:12.200 But I've never seen such recklessness

00:23:14.620 as this Israeli government.

00:23:18.320 Reckless, extremist, provocative,

00:23:21.980 assassinating counterparts left and right.

00:23:26.980 And, of course, in the most provocative ways,

00:23:30.960 assassinating the Hamas political negotiator

00:23:35.460 in Tehran on the occasion of the inauguration

00:23:39.480 of the new Iranian president.

00:23:43.720 You know, this is aiming for pulling the U.S.

00:23:47.420 into a broader war.

00:23:49.980 Can I just ask you something?

00:23:51.740 So I said, are we going to have a war with Iran?

00:23:54.820 And you immediately said we're being pushed

00:23:56.620 by another country to have a war with Iran.

00:23:58.120 Is there any reason for the United States

00:24:00.360 acting solely in its own interest

00:24:02.140 to have a war with Iran?

00:24:03.100 Of course not.

00:24:04.400 And it would be devastating

00:24:05.640 because Iran has allies, including Russia.

00:24:09.400 So a war with Iran could easily become World War III.

00:24:13.860 World War III, for everyone to understand,

00:24:16.640 could easily become a nuclear war.

00:24:19.260 A nuclear war, you know,

00:24:21.920 whatever you're going to say or do

00:24:23.620 with your children or your grandchildren,

00:24:25.460 say it now because the world will end

00:24:27.420 in a very quick moment if we fall into that.

00:24:31.420 I should just pause and say,

00:24:32.340 you wrecked my morning over breakfast today

00:24:33.820 by describing at length

00:24:36.300 the new Annie Jacobson book on nuclear war,

00:24:39.920 which I hope you will not describe it.

00:24:42.260 No, I won't do it for everybody

00:24:43.780 except that it's a remarkable book.

00:24:46.800 It's chilling.

00:24:47.840 I listen to it because I go for a long walk,

00:24:52.140 so I listen to it as an audio book

00:24:53.940 with the author Annie Jacobson narrating it

00:24:57.060 in a very clipped, precise way,

00:24:59.560 but it describes in meticulous,

00:25:03.080 rigorous, technical language

00:25:05.900 based on voluminous research

00:25:08.920 how the world could come to an end

00:25:10.740 in a few minutes.

00:25:11.960 And it's a very serious book

00:25:14.080 and it's completely chilling.

00:25:17.660 And it's called Nuclear War.

00:25:19.000 Nuclear War, A Scenario.

00:25:21.000 By Annie Jacobson.

00:25:22.040 I just ordered it after our conversation,

00:25:23.640 though I don't want to read it,

00:25:24.560 but I'm going to make myself.

00:25:25.440 I'm sorry to interrupt.

00:25:26.440 I just want to throw that out there

00:25:27.320 because it sounded important.

00:25:28.920 But you don't think

00:25:30.520 if the United States were acting

00:25:32.220 in its own interest

00:25:33.620 that war with Iran

00:25:34.660 would even be on the table?

00:25:36.160 If the U.S. were acting

00:25:37.540 in our own interest,

00:25:39.700 we would not even have

00:25:42.320 an argument with Russia right now.

00:25:44.580 We would not have an argument

00:25:46.160 with China right now.

00:25:47.400 We would not have an argument

00:25:48.660 with Iran right now.

00:25:50.240 We'd actually be trading,

00:25:53.020 having peaceful relations,

00:25:55.780 and by the way,

00:25:58.300 not to mention saving

00:26:00.400 some hundreds of billions

00:26:01.740 of dollars a year

00:26:02.740 so that we could fix our roads

00:26:04.700 and our potholes

00:26:05.720 and our broken elevators

00:26:08.300 and escalators

00:26:09.280 and our decrepit passenger rail travel

00:26:14.480 in this country.

00:26:15.420 I keep having to get off of trains

00:26:17.740 that are broken down

00:26:18.720 because Amtrak breaks down

00:26:20.740 all the time, it seems,

00:26:22.360 or maybe only when I'm riding it.

00:26:24.200 But in any event,

00:26:25.240 yeah, we could actually do something

00:26:26.520 for our country

00:26:27.260 if we were less obsessed about

00:26:31.500 or less drawn into

00:26:34.260 these conflicts

00:26:36.160 which are all solvable

00:26:37.900 on a political level

00:26:40.400 without war.

00:26:42.460 But we don't want to do politics.

00:26:44.460 We are the United States

00:26:46.200 or we are the Israel lobby

00:26:47.940 or we have a plan

00:26:50.380 that goes back to 1994

00:26:51.760 to expand NATO

00:26:53.540 completely contrary

00:26:55.280 to what we promised

00:26:56.400 the Soviet Union and Russia

00:26:58.380 back in 1990 to 92.

00:27:01.800 We cheated, we lied,

00:27:03.360 but we're going to do it.

00:27:04.440 So we're in a very funny way

00:27:06.700 in this country.

00:27:09.640 Obviously, major,

00:27:12.080 major challenges at home

00:27:16.380 of just basic living conditions

00:27:19.840 and infrastructure

00:27:20.840 and keeping up with things.

00:27:23.240 Yeah, of course,

00:27:24.300 we've got some dazzling technology

00:27:28.120 and some very rich people,

00:27:29.520 but we've got a lot of people

00:27:30.780 in this country

00:27:31.520 that are not living that way.

00:27:33.080 No.

00:27:33.540 And we're not attending

00:27:35.400 to any of it

00:27:36.140 because the most important thing

00:27:37.780 for us is picking fights

00:27:39.200 or being drawn

00:27:40.520 into other people's fights.

00:27:42.320 And we,

00:27:44.260 Israel's trying to draw us

00:27:46.540 into a broader war

00:27:48.720 in the Middle East

00:27:49.600 that is completely,

00:27:51.660 totally,

00:27:52.420 100%

00:27:53.400 against American interests.

00:27:55.260 Now,

00:27:55.920 I would say

00:27:56.780 that

00:27:57.640 I give very little credit

00:28:00.900 to this administration

00:28:01.760 for anything,

00:28:03.320 but I would say

00:28:04.500 they give signs

00:28:06.120 that they don't want

00:28:07.180 to be pulled

00:28:07.800 into a war

00:28:09.300 with Iran

00:28:09.980 and they know

00:28:10.980 that Israel

00:28:11.920 is trying to provoke that

00:28:13.680 and they're torn

00:28:15.140 because the Israel lobby

00:28:16.380 is really powerful

00:28:17.540 and it's clear

00:28:20.160 the games

00:28:20.980 that Israel

00:28:22.240 is playing

00:28:22.860 in provoking

00:28:23.900 Iran

00:28:24.800 and Hezbollah

00:28:26.200 and Northern Lebanon

00:28:28.520 and essentially

00:28:30.000 at the core

00:28:30.700 being unwilling

00:28:33.000 to talk about

00:28:33.960 any political settlement

00:28:37.000 that gives

00:28:38.280 the Palestinian people

00:28:39.620 a state

00:28:40.300 and some rights

00:28:41.060 as the way

00:28:41.960 to end

00:28:42.480 all of this conflict.

00:28:44.320 And instead,

00:28:45.060 what Israel wants

00:28:46.240 is that the U.S.,

00:28:48.140 you know,

00:28:49.900 protects their

00:28:51.260 most extremist

00:28:52.920 positions

00:28:53.820 and this is,

00:28:56.320 of course,

00:28:56.640 not in the U.S. interest.

00:28:58.620 It's not in the U.S. interest

00:29:00.300 to be

00:29:00.840 in a war

00:29:01.960 with Russia.

00:29:03.360 Why should we be

00:29:04.480 in a war

00:29:04.860 with Russia?

00:29:05.840 Russia told us

00:29:06.800 absolutely,

00:29:08.400 and by Russia,

00:29:09.100 I mean President Putin

00:29:10.160 and before him,

00:29:11.780 President Yeltsin

00:29:12.500 and I was an advisor

00:29:13.580 to President Yeltsin.

00:29:14.620 the Russian presidents

00:29:16.300 told us

00:29:17.320 absolutely

00:29:18.600 clearly

00:29:19.640 we can cooperate,

00:29:22.580 we can have

00:29:23.060 normal relations,

00:29:24.400 but don't

00:29:25.520 crowd us

00:29:26.300 with your military bases

00:29:27.860 on our border.

00:29:29.080 Something the United States

00:29:31.140 leaders

00:29:31.960 should understand

00:29:33.620 the exact

00:29:35.980 meaning of

00:29:37.020 because we

00:29:38.400 set that

00:29:39.680 position

00:29:40.700 201 years ago

00:29:43.080 in the Monroe Doctrine,

00:29:44.420 and we have

00:29:45.620 repeated it

00:29:46.560 basically every year

00:29:48.100 since,

00:29:48.640 which is

00:29:49.000 don't

00:29:50.100 crowd us

00:29:50.820 with

00:29:51.340 your military

00:29:52.960 in our

00:29:54.060 neighborhood.

00:29:55.080 That's all.

00:29:55.980 That's all

00:29:56.940 the Russians

00:29:57.920 said.

00:29:58.980 We

00:29:59.740 absolutely

00:30:01.080 refused

00:30:02.000 to listen

00:30:02.700 to this.

00:30:03.680 What did the

00:30:04.260 Chinese say?

00:30:05.400 Something

00:30:05.880 very,

00:30:07.220 very

00:30:07.620 simple.

00:30:08.980 The Chinese

00:30:09.800 say

00:30:10.360 we are

00:30:11.800 one

00:30:12.260 China.

00:30:13.880 You,

00:30:14.720 the Western

00:30:15.280 countries

00:30:16.000 led by

00:30:17.040 Britain

00:30:17.480 in the

00:30:18.360 19th

00:30:18.860 century

00:30:19.280 and then

00:30:20.540 with

00:30:21.700 all of

00:30:22.660 the

00:30:22.900 imperial

00:30:23.420 powers

00:30:23.940 including

00:30:24.420 Japan

00:30:25.000 at the

00:30:25.720 end of

00:30:26.020 the

00:30:26.140 19th

00:30:26.620 century

00:30:26.980 and

00:30:27.220 into

00:30:27.480 the

00:30:27.660 20th

00:30:28.100 century

00:30:28.460 tried

00:30:29.220 to

00:30:29.700 dismember

00:30:30.900 us,

00:30:31.800 China.

00:30:32.100 You tried

00:30:32.940 to pull

00:30:33.400 us to

00:30:33.740 pieces.

00:30:34.320 You conquered

00:30:34.940 territory.

00:30:36.020 You invaded

00:30:36.980 us many

00:30:37.600 times.

00:30:38.120 In fact,

00:30:39.180 to my

00:30:40.020 mind,

00:30:40.380 the most

00:30:40.740 cynical

00:30:41.060 war of

00:30:42.140 modern

00:30:42.600 history

00:30:43.060 was

00:30:43.480 Britain's

00:30:44.340 invasion

00:30:44.860 of

00:30:45.200 China

00:30:45.880 in

00:30:46.380 1839

00:30:47.520 called

00:30:47.940 the

00:30:48.140 First

00:30:48.400 Opium

00:30:48.840 War,

00:30:49.220 which

00:30:49.400 was

00:30:49.640 to

00:30:49.840 force

00:30:50.220 China

00:30:50.700 to

00:30:51.100 accept

00:30:51.960 British

00:30:52.480 opium

00:30:53.020 in

00:30:53.360 trade.

00:30:53.980 The

00:30:54.200 Chinese

00:30:54.560 knew

00:30:54.820 we

00:30:55.200 don't

00:30:55.280 want

00:30:55.480 to

00:30:55.620 become

00:30:55.980 opium

00:30:56.420 addicts.

00:30:57.460 Britain

00:30:57.720 said,

00:30:58.180 hell,

00:30:58.600 this is

00:30:58.920 free

00:30:59.220 trade,

00:30:59.640 it's

00:30:59.780 our

00:31:00.020 opium,

00:31:00.820 as if

00:31:01.460 the

00:31:02.260 Colombian

00:31:02.920 cartel

00:31:03.480 would

00:31:03.720 invade

00:31:04.100 us

00:31:04.400 on free

00:31:05.600 trade

00:31:05.880 principles.

00:31:06.360 So in

00:31:07.620 any

00:31:07.860 event,

00:31:08.640 the

00:31:09.560 Chinese

00:31:10.000 are

00:31:10.360 saying

00:31:10.620 one

00:31:10.940 thing,

00:31:11.680 don't

00:31:12.580 dismantle

00:31:14.700 us,

00:31:15.000 okay?

00:31:15.660 We went

00:31:16.220 through that.

00:31:16.860 We went

00:31:17.180 through 150

00:31:17.800 years of

00:31:18.660 that.

00:31:19.420 So Taiwan,

00:31:20.920 that's part

00:31:21.420 of China.

00:31:22.140 You said it,

00:31:23.220 United States,

00:31:24.380 that's the

00:31:25.140 basis of our

00:31:25.840 diplomatic

00:31:26.240 relations.

00:31:27.420 Stop

00:31:27.980 provoking,

00:31:29.020 that's all.

00:31:30.180 We can have

00:31:30.720 perfectly

00:31:31.420 normal

00:31:32.420 relations,

00:31:33.940 but don't

00:31:34.920 play the

00:31:35.780 game of

00:31:36.680 trying to

00:31:37.640 break us

00:31:38.320 apart.

00:31:39.440 But we

00:31:40.280 have forces

00:31:41.080 in the

00:31:41.660 U.S.

00:31:42.600 that seem

00:31:43.380 compelled

00:31:44.340 to make

00:31:45.720 trouble.

00:31:46.920 Literally,

00:31:47.860 that we

00:31:48.420 must provoke,

00:31:49.620 we must

00:31:50.200 overthrow

00:31:50.700 Russia,

00:31:51.320 we must

00:31:51.820 divide

00:31:52.300 Russia,

00:31:52.800 we must

00:31:53.280 dismember

00:31:53.860 China,

00:31:54.440 we must

00:31:55.260 not allow

00:31:56.280 other

00:31:56.700 countries

00:31:57.260 just to

00:31:57.920 get on

00:31:58.600 with

00:31:58.880 things.

00:31:59.260 That's

00:32:00.020 all the

00:32:00.960 other

00:32:01.220 countries

00:32:01.680 are saying.

00:32:02.600 When I

00:32:03.340 say these

00:32:03.860 things,

00:32:04.160 it sounds

00:32:04.660 so weird,

00:32:05.480 by the

00:32:05.960 way,

00:32:06.660 to

00:32:07.020 Americans

00:32:08.160 who are

00:32:08.560 reading the

00:32:09.180 New York

00:32:09.480 Times or

00:32:10.180 reading the

00:32:10.740 Washington

00:32:11.180 Post or

00:32:11.980 reading the

00:32:12.420 Wall Street

00:32:12.820 Journal,

00:32:13.220 because

00:32:13.380 Mr.

00:32:14.320 Sachs,

00:32:14.920 China's

00:32:15.380 our enemy,

00:32:16.240 they're

00:32:16.420 doing all

00:32:17.100 these terrible

00:32:17.700 things,

00:32:18.300 Russia,

00:32:19.240 they're the

00:32:19.720 imperial,

00:32:20.660 blah,

00:32:20.900 blah,

00:32:21.180 blah,

00:32:21.520 because

00:32:22.140 we're

00:32:22.580 fed a

00:32:23.860 bunch

00:32:24.440 of lines

00:32:25.560 that are

00:32:26.480 complete

00:32:27.320 nonsense.

00:32:28.300 But if

00:32:29.360 you say

00:32:29.880 it again

00:32:30.380 and say

00:32:30.980 it again

00:32:31.420 and say

00:32:31.980 it again

00:32:32.440 and the

00:32:33.280 U.S.

00:32:33.940 you know

00:32:35.040 better than

00:32:35.640 anybody,

00:32:36.720 USG

00:32:37.440 trying to

00:32:38.200 control

00:32:38.580 the

00:32:38.800 narrative,

00:32:39.360 trying to

00:32:39.840 control

00:32:40.280 what we

00:32:41.480 hear,

00:32:41.880 trying to

00:32:42.300 control

00:32:42.720 what social

00:32:43.900 media can

00:32:44.540 say,

00:32:45.380 well,

00:32:46.840 the

00:32:47.120 simplest

00:32:47.940 truths

00:32:48.580 become

00:32:49.620 completely

00:32:50.660 clouded.

00:32:51.420 So the

00:32:52.320 point is,

00:32:53.380 you ask

00:32:53.820 me,

00:32:54.200 does the

00:32:55.340 U.S.

00:32:55.680 have an

00:32:56.040 interest in

00:32:56.880 war with

00:32:57.980 Iran?

00:32:59.100 Of course

00:32:59.680 not.

00:33:00.340 Does the

00:33:00.720 U.S.

00:33:01.060 have an

00:33:01.440 interest in

00:33:02.360 war with

00:33:02.920 Russia?

00:33:03.480 Of course

00:33:04.160 not.

00:33:04.860 Does the

00:33:05.200 U.S.

00:33:05.540 have an

00:33:05.900 interest in

00:33:06.540 war with

00:33:07.040 China?

00:33:07.680 God forbid

00:33:08.340 is my

00:33:08.900 only answer.

00:33:09.700 It would

00:33:09.900 be probably

00:33:11.540 the end

00:33:12.040 of the

00:33:12.260 world.

00:33:13.080 I think

00:33:13.440 there's a

00:33:13.880 widespread

00:33:14.240 recognition

00:33:14.960 of that,

00:33:16.440 that we

00:33:16.740 can't win

00:33:17.260 a war

00:33:17.780 against

00:33:18.000 China,

00:33:18.320 obviously.

00:33:18.840 I think

00:33:19.040 most people

00:33:19.340 know that,

00:33:20.100 that we're

00:33:20.380 not winning

00:33:20.840 our current

00:33:21.420 war against

00:33:21.860 Russia.

00:33:22.280 Most people

00:33:22.600 understand

00:33:22.880 that.

00:33:23.820 But I

00:33:24.200 think in

00:33:24.880 the public

00:33:25.300 mind,

00:33:25.620 I'm just

00:33:25.880 guessing,

00:33:26.200 but that

00:33:26.760 Iran seems

00:33:27.880 very far

00:33:28.380 away and

00:33:28.760 primitive.

00:33:30.240 And maybe

00:33:30.560 it is a

00:33:30.920 country we

00:33:31.300 can kind

00:33:31.580 of push

00:33:31.980 around and

00:33:32.940 maybe we

00:33:33.220 could have

00:33:33.460 some sort

00:33:33.820 of limited

00:33:34.300 engagement

00:33:34.860 with Iran

00:33:35.820 and kill

00:33:37.080 the leadership

00:33:37.840 and then the

00:33:38.740 freedom fighters

00:33:39.320 take over and

00:33:39.880 it becomes a

00:33:40.380 democracy again.

00:33:41.900 I think people

00:33:42.440 may believe

00:33:43.440 that.

00:33:44.120 What would

00:33:44.400 you say

00:33:44.880 to them or

00:33:45.940 to our

00:33:46.260 policymakers

00:33:46.680 who are

00:33:47.260 making that

00:33:47.880 case?

00:33:49.140 Let me

00:33:49.340 start by

00:33:49.860 saying that

00:33:50.380 Iran or

00:33:51.620 Persia,

00:33:52.180 to use

00:33:53.400 its

00:33:53.740 classical

00:33:55.560 name,

00:33:56.560 is one

00:33:57.600 of the

00:33:58.260 greatest

00:33:59.420 and ancient

00:34:00.960 civilizations

00:34:01.880 on the

00:34:02.340 planet.

00:34:03.180 And it

00:34:04.620 is an

00:34:05.020 amazing

00:34:05.600 civilization

00:34:06.640 and an

00:34:07.460 amazing

00:34:07.880 place and

00:34:09.180 a highly

00:34:09.920 sophisticated

00:34:10.920 country of

00:34:12.200 about 100

00:34:12.700 million people

00:34:13.520 and a

00:34:15.240 highly

00:34:16.280 technologically

00:34:17.180 sophisticated

00:34:18.020 place,

00:34:19.120 including

00:34:19.780 a

00:34:21.380 militarily

00:34:22.060 sophisticated

00:34:22.860 place.

00:34:24.720 And we

00:34:26.100 have known

00:34:26.620 that and

00:34:27.180 one of

00:34:27.660 the concerns

00:34:28.820 about Iran

00:34:31.460 is that

00:34:32.720 with all

00:34:33.720 of that

00:34:34.020 technical

00:34:34.460 sophistication,

00:34:36.280 they

00:34:36.660 felt

00:34:38.500 threatened

00:34:39.100 by the

00:34:39.740 United

00:34:40.020 States

00:34:40.580 and

00:34:41.720 threatened

00:34:43.140 by other

00:34:43.880 neighbors

00:34:44.400 as well

00:34:45.320 and

00:34:46.580 have

00:34:47.880 had a

00:34:49.020 program

00:34:49.420 to develop

00:34:50.100 nuclear

00:34:51.020 weapons

00:34:51.500 of their

00:34:51.880 own.

00:34:52.160 And that

00:34:53.160 seems no

00:34:54.120 doubt to

00:34:54.720 be true.

00:34:55.920 And what

00:34:57.200 the Iranians

00:34:58.040 said is

00:34:59.440 if we

00:35:00.940 had the

00:35:01.400 right

00:35:01.800 geopolitical

00:35:03.900 context where

00:35:04.860 you're not

00:35:05.300 threatening us,

00:35:06.620 where you're

00:35:07.160 not trying to

00:35:07.840 crush us,

00:35:08.480 where you're

00:35:08.760 not trying to

00:35:09.420 overthrow

00:35:09.900 our

00:35:10.540 regime,

00:35:11.920 we will

00:35:13.120 end that

00:35:14.680 nuclear

00:35:15.280 program.

00:35:15.880 But if

00:35:18.040 you're

00:35:18.240 trying to

00:35:19.020 overthrow

00:35:20.020 us and

00:35:20.900 threatening

00:35:21.480 us and

00:35:22.320 damning

00:35:23.520 us in

00:35:24.260 every

00:35:24.540 possible

00:35:25.040 way,

00:35:25.980 how can

00:35:27.720 we deal

00:35:28.140 with you?

00:35:29.100 And that

00:35:29.760 led to a

00:35:30.640 number of

00:35:31.240 years of

00:35:32.320 negotiation.

00:35:34.320 And the

00:35:35.040 negotiations

00:35:35.780 culminated

00:35:36.720 during the

00:35:38.540 Obama

00:35:38.940 last years

00:35:41.040 of his

00:35:41.640 government

00:35:42.040 in a

00:35:43.180 treaty that

00:35:44.160 was called

00:35:45.440 the JCPOA,

00:35:47.520 the Joint

00:35:48.460 Comprehensive

00:35:49.380 Agreement

00:35:51.320 in which

00:35:53.200 Iran would

00:35:54.240 stop its

00:35:55.120 nuclear arms

00:35:56.240 development,

00:35:57.920 and we

00:36:00.040 would end

00:36:00.660 the sanctions

00:36:01.460 on Iran

00:36:03.080 and normalize

00:36:04.280 relations.

00:36:05.900 Well,

00:36:06.460 our

00:36:07.020 neocon world

00:36:08.820 and especially

00:36:09.820 the Israel

00:36:10.480 lobby could

00:36:11.320 not accept

00:36:11.960 that because

00:36:13.380 Iran is

00:36:14.420 the pure

00:36:18.620 enemy from

00:36:19.520 Israel's

00:36:20.340 point of

00:36:20.960 view.

00:36:22.240 And so

00:36:22.680 the Israelis,

00:36:24.700 to my

00:36:25.540 mind,

00:36:25.940 in a

00:36:26.260 kind of

00:36:26.760 mad,

00:36:28.000 self-defeating,

00:36:30.280 devastatingly

00:36:31.120 wrong-headed

00:36:31.900 approach,

00:36:33.320 convinced the

00:36:35.800 Trump

00:36:36.040 administration,

00:36:36.800 and Bolton

00:36:38.260 was there

00:36:38.840 of course

00:36:39.400 doing his

00:36:40.240 usual job

00:36:42.280 of messing

00:36:42.920 things up,

00:36:43.620 which he's

00:36:44.080 done all

00:36:44.620 his career,

00:36:45.880 to break

00:36:47.020 this

00:36:47.640 agreement.

00:36:49.160 And the

00:36:50.480 U.S.

00:36:51.060 kept

00:36:51.480 sanctions,

00:36:52.280 pulled out

00:36:52.780 of the

00:36:53.740 agreement

00:36:55.040 with Iran.

00:36:56.080 And where

00:36:56.900 are we

00:36:57.360 today?

00:36:58.800 Well,

00:36:59.120 where we

00:36:59.580 are today

00:37:00.260 is that

00:37:01.220 it's

00:37:02.780 commonly

00:37:03.780 said and

00:37:05.920 reported

00:37:06.700 that Iran

00:37:07.700 is now

00:37:08.380 either

00:37:10.240 already with

00:37:11.420 the nuclear

00:37:12.100 weapons or

00:37:12.980 with the

00:37:13.760 nuclear weapons

00:37:14.960 within reach

00:37:15.860 in days or

00:37:16.920 weeks because

00:37:17.860 it has

00:37:18.940 been

00:37:19.860 enhancing

00:37:20.800 its

00:37:22.920 uranium and

00:37:24.380 it could

00:37:24.860 make a

00:37:25.440 nuclear weapon

00:37:26.240 if it

00:37:27.080 chooses to

00:37:27.840 do so.

00:37:28.520 In other

00:37:28.940 words,

00:37:29.280 pulling out

00:37:29.980 of diplomacy

00:37:32.040 solved

00:37:33.360 nothing.

00:37:34.440 It didn't

00:37:35.320 end any

00:37:36.820 threat.

00:37:37.800 It didn't

00:37:38.340 topple any

00:37:39.600 regime.

00:37:40.780 It only

00:37:42.040 pushed Iran

00:37:44.060 to continue

00:37:45.040 the course

00:37:46.000 that it

00:37:46.320 was on

00:37:46.840 and to

00:37:48.720 put

00:37:49.840 Iran

00:37:51.620 and

00:37:52.640 the U.S.

00:37:55.500 on this

00:37:56.480 collision

00:37:57.100 course.

00:37:58.320 Now,

00:37:58.960 Israel is

00:38:00.380 trying to

00:38:00.860 provoke an

00:38:01.680 outright war

00:38:02.460 on this

00:38:02.920 basis.

00:38:03.360 the idea

00:38:03.940 that

00:38:04.220 diplomacy,

00:38:05.560 that normal

00:38:06.160 relations,

00:38:07.420 that an

00:38:07.820 agreement

00:38:08.280 that actually

00:38:09.360 was reached

00:38:10.540 and backed

00:38:11.560 by the

00:38:12.020 UN and

00:38:12.840 backed by

00:38:13.440 all the

00:38:14.320 major powers

00:38:15.140 including the

00:38:16.020 United States

00:38:16.900 and Europe

00:38:17.860 and Russia

00:38:18.740 and China

00:38:19.580 and the

00:38:20.120 United Nations,

00:38:20.800 that maybe

00:38:21.780 diplomacy

00:38:22.520 could solve

00:38:23.860 something.

00:38:24.800 That,

00:38:25.800 of course,

00:38:26.980 is utterly

00:38:27.720 rejected

00:38:28.480 united by

00:38:29.380 Israel and

00:38:31.540 by the

00:38:32.040 Israel lobby

00:38:32.960 and what

00:38:34.620 Bibi is

00:38:36.740 trying to

00:38:37.500 do,

00:38:37.760 what Netanyahu

00:38:38.380 is trying

00:38:38.800 to do

00:38:39.160 is to

00:38:39.640 pull the

00:38:41.220 U.S.

00:38:41.640 into a

00:38:42.120 full-fledged

00:38:42.820 war to

00:38:43.780 destroy

00:38:44.800 Iran.

00:38:45.480 But if

00:38:46.120 he wants

00:38:46.420 a war

00:38:46.660 with Iran,

00:38:47.120 just go

00:38:47.420 have your

00:38:47.680 war with

00:38:48.020 Iran.

00:38:48.400 Why do

00:38:48.620 we have

00:38:48.860 to be

00:38:49.060 involved?

00:38:49.420 What do

00:38:49.560 we have

00:38:49.800 to do

00:38:50.020 with this?

00:38:50.400 I don't

00:38:50.680 understand.

00:38:52.220 If Israel

00:38:53.300 were to

00:38:54.160 have a

00:38:54.760 war with

00:38:55.720 Iran,

00:38:56.400 Iran could

00:38:57.480 and would

00:38:59.940 cause

00:39:01.560 grievous

00:39:02.780 damage to

00:39:04.760 Israel and

00:39:05.680 Israel

00:39:06.260 might in

00:39:08.200 the end,

00:39:08.700 by the way,

00:39:09.580 use its

00:39:10.360 nuclear weapons.

00:39:11.160 people face

00:39:14.540 problems like

00:39:15.400 this,

00:39:15.760 not just

00:39:16.240 geopolitically

00:39:17.300 or on the

00:39:17.520 global stage,

00:39:18.060 but in

00:39:19.120 their daily

00:39:19.480 lives.

00:39:19.900 I would

00:39:20.240 like this,

00:39:20.800 but there

00:39:21.060 are restraints

00:39:21.560 on what I

00:39:21.900 can do

00:39:22.200 because of

00:39:22.660 things I

00:39:22.960 can't

00:39:23.200 control.

00:39:23.960 Maybe I

00:39:24.560 hate my

00:39:24.900 neighbors,

00:39:26.000 but these

00:39:27.140 are the

00:39:27.340 things you

00:39:27.660 deal with

00:39:27.960 in life.

00:39:28.600 You figure

00:39:28.980 it out.

00:39:29.760 If you

00:39:30.060 don't like

00:39:30.520 your neighbor

00:39:30.940 or you

00:39:31.180 think your

00:39:31.600 neighbor is

00:39:32.000 a little

00:39:32.240 bit

00:39:32.400 dangerous,

00:39:32.980 you provoke

00:39:33.620 them every

00:39:34.100 day and

00:39:35.080 try to

00:39:35.660 humiliate

00:39:36.320 them and

00:39:36.920 do whatever

00:39:38.660 you can to

00:39:39.400 damage their

00:39:40.080 interests,

00:39:40.620 maybe invade

00:39:41.580 their lawn,

00:39:42.300 maybe destroy

00:39:42.980 their shed.

00:39:44.120 I don't

00:39:44.940 think so.

00:39:46.020 I don't

00:39:47.140 think so.

00:39:48.680 That's not

00:39:49.180 good for you

00:39:49.940 or for anyone

00:39:50.480 else.

00:39:50.800 I guess what

00:39:51.100 I'm saying

00:39:51.340 is I

00:39:51.640 certainly

00:39:51.980 don't want

00:39:52.320 Israel or

00:39:52.820 any other

00:39:53.180 country to

00:39:53.600 be destroyed

00:39:54.020 or have

00:39:54.360 a war,

00:39:55.000 but I'm

00:39:56.300 still baffled

00:39:57.320 by why we

00:39:59.360 have to be

00:39:59.920 involved.

00:40:00.280 What in the

00:40:01.120 world do we

00:40:01.820 have to do

00:40:02.220 with this?

00:40:02.600 We're the

00:40:02.800 United States

00:40:03.260 of America.

00:40:03.740 We're on

00:40:03.880 the other

00:40:04.180 side of the

00:40:04.620 planet.

00:40:05.600 We don't

00:40:06.100 have any

00:40:07.000 connection to

00:40:07.720 Iran.

00:40:08.140 Why would

00:40:08.640 we even

00:40:09.020 consider

00:40:09.620 fighting Iran?

00:40:11.180 This is

00:40:11.500 just nuts.

00:40:12.180 We would

00:40:13.160 consider it

00:40:13.900 because Iran

00:40:15.500 is our

00:40:16.440 implacable

00:40:17.400 foe according

00:40:19.040 to the

00:40:20.420 Israel lobby

00:40:21.080 and according

00:40:22.420 to a

00:40:23.700 propaganda

00:40:24.760 that of

00:40:25.940 course went

00:40:26.500 back to the

00:40:27.180 hostage-taking

00:40:28.020 crisis of

00:40:28.760 1979 and

00:40:30.720 the revolution

00:40:33.080 in Iran

00:40:34.260 and like

00:40:35.600 so many

00:40:36.260 things in

00:40:37.620 our world

00:40:38.360 you can

00:40:40.380 tell a

00:40:40.840 narrative

00:40:41.220 as you

00:40:42.600 like as

00:40:43.600 long as

00:40:44.420 you hide

00:40:45.440 every bit

00:40:46.360 of real

00:40:47.120 history.

00:40:48.560 So Iran

00:40:49.740 was not

00:40:51.080 an enemy

00:40:52.440 of the

00:40:53.080 United States

00:40:53.900 in some

00:40:54.560 natural and

00:40:56.060 implacable

00:40:56.680 way.

00:40:57.100 but in

00:40:58.520 1953

00:40:59.520 when a

00:41:02.200 democratically

00:41:03.160 elected and

00:41:04.300 popular and

00:41:05.580 very decent

00:41:07.020 and clever

00:41:07.740 leader of

00:41:08.960 Iran

00:41:09.380 thought that

00:41:10.600 maybe Iran

00:41:11.720 should get

00:41:12.360 some more

00:41:13.920 benefit from

00:41:14.920 oil that

00:41:16.580 Britain was

00:41:17.720 willfully

00:41:19.000 extracting in

00:41:20.420 imperial terms.

00:41:21.880 It's oil.

00:41:23.180 Iranian oil.

00:41:23.940 Sorry.

00:41:24.240 Yes.

00:41:25.200 Well, as

00:41:26.660 the old joke

00:41:27.360 said, how

00:41:27.920 did our

00:41:28.440 oil get

00:41:29.080 under their

00:41:29.600 sand?

00:41:30.960 You know,

00:41:31.340 this was,

00:41:32.280 this of course

00:41:33.600 is their

00:41:34.060 oil, but

00:41:35.180 the vision

00:41:36.540 of imperial

00:41:37.460 powers was

00:41:38.600 we can go

00:41:39.620 where we

00:41:40.160 want, when

00:41:40.880 we want, and

00:41:41.820 it's really

00:41:42.480 our oil.

00:41:43.680 We need

00:41:44.240 your oil.

00:41:44.960 Thank you

00:41:45.320 very much.

00:41:46.280 That was the

00:41:46.820 British view.

00:41:48.020 The British

00:41:48.400 empire was

00:41:49.260 not a

00:41:51.000 nice little

00:41:51.780 fair

00:41:53.200 enterprise.

00:41:54.240 the British

00:41:54.800 empire was

00:41:56.040 a completely

00:41:56.960 extractive

00:41:57.760 empire.

00:41:58.580 Well, suffice

00:41:59.160 it to say,

00:41:59.820 and the

00:42:00.200 point I was

00:42:00.680 going to

00:42:00.900 make without

00:42:01.480 diverting us

00:42:02.740 so much is

00:42:03.360 that in

00:42:03.760 1953,

00:42:05.500 Britain and

00:42:06.920 the U.S.

00:42:07.920 teamed up

00:42:08.540 to overthrow

00:42:09.800 this democratic

00:42:12.120 government.

00:42:13.780 We love

00:42:14.560 democracy, so

00:42:15.840 let's put in

00:42:16.620 a police state,

00:42:17.480 which is

00:42:17.900 exactly what

00:42:18.640 we did.

00:42:19.440 So we

00:42:19.880 overthrew the

00:42:20.600 democracy.

00:42:21.080 we put in

00:42:22.160 a monarch,

00:42:23.760 which became

00:42:24.640 a police

00:42:25.760 state, and

00:42:26.900 the Iranians

00:42:27.500 lived under

00:42:28.260 that, and

00:42:28.800 they didn't

00:42:29.360 like it.

00:42:29.920 And in

00:42:30.740 1979, as

00:42:32.300 the Shah of

00:42:33.920 Iran that

00:42:34.460 we installed

00:42:35.600 through a

00:42:36.880 coup, a

00:42:38.100 CIA, MI6

00:42:40.360 coup, was

00:42:42.840 dying of

00:42:43.680 cancer, the

00:42:45.000 Iranians said,

00:42:46.060 okay, we want

00:42:46.900 our country

00:42:47.380 back.

00:42:47.720 And that

00:42:49.320 of course

00:42:50.240 was the

00:42:51.260 occasion at

00:42:52.800 the time for

00:42:53.800 the hostage

00:42:55.460 taking of

00:42:56.120 our diplomats

00:42:58.040 because it's

00:42:59.740 a long story,

00:43:00.580 but Carter

00:43:01.640 had taken

00:43:03.340 the Shah in

00:43:04.280 who was the

00:43:04.960 mortal enemy

00:43:05.680 of so many

00:43:07.920 people in

00:43:08.720 Iran after

00:43:09.560 decades of

00:43:10.540 his

00:43:11.680 police state.

00:43:13.000 Well, all

00:43:15.060 of these

00:43:15.800 issues have

00:43:17.000 history and

00:43:18.580 ways to

00:43:19.340 resolve them.

00:43:20.680 And by

00:43:21.100 the 1990s

00:43:22.680 or by

00:43:23.780 the early

00:43:25.000 2000s, had

00:43:26.220 we behaved

00:43:27.600 like normal

00:43:29.060 adult

00:43:31.060 people, well,

00:43:32.980 maybe not

00:43:33.440 normal, but

00:43:34.200 peace-seeking

00:43:36.080 people, this

00:43:37.700 could all

00:43:38.460 have been

00:43:39.000 long ago

00:43:39.940 past history.

00:43:41.420 But what

00:43:42.260 did the

00:43:42.540 United States

00:43:43.280 do?

00:43:44.060 The United

00:43:44.700 States, after

00:43:46.700 the release

00:43:47.840 of the

00:43:48.160 hostages,

00:43:49.020 armed Iraq

00:43:50.380 to attack

00:43:51.560 Iran and

00:43:53.180 to kill

00:43:53.700 hundreds of

00:43:54.480 thousands of

00:43:55.160 Iranians

00:43:55.800 during the

00:43:57.020 1980s, including

00:43:58.580 with chemical

00:44:00.120 weapons.

00:44:01.100 That was our

00:44:01.840 ally, one

00:44:02.740 should recall,

00:44:04.080 Saddam Hussein,

00:44:05.240 our ally.

00:44:06.240 Who we executed.

00:44:07.080 Of course, who we

00:44:07.840 later executed,

00:44:08.860 which we do

00:44:09.460 for most of

00:44:10.260 our allies.

00:44:10.960 So this is a

00:44:12.500 stressful time

00:44:13.060 of year.

00:44:13.260 The kids are

00:44:13.560 going back to

00:44:13.960 school, vacation

00:44:14.700 is over, it's

00:44:15.440 the height of a

00:44:16.100 presidential election

00:44:17.040 season, there's a

00:44:18.060 lot going on, you

00:44:19.460 need a good

00:44:20.360 night's sleep, but

00:44:21.440 it's never been

00:44:22.160 harder to get

00:44:22.960 it.

00:44:23.760 So we were

00:44:24.060 talking about

00:44:24.300 this in the

00:44:24.880 office the other

00:44:25.360 day, and a

00:44:26.100 couple people who

00:44:26.860 work here were

00:44:27.940 raving about a

00:44:28.840 product called

00:44:30.100 Eat Sleep.

00:44:31.660 And I wanted to

00:44:33.380 know more about

00:44:33.860 it.

00:44:34.020 It turns out that

00:44:34.740 temperature has a

00:44:36.040 lot to do with

00:44:36.600 whether or not you

00:44:37.160 sleep comfortably and

00:44:38.180 wake up feeling

00:44:38.840 rested, like you

00:44:39.700 actually slept.

00:44:40.960 Now the makers

00:44:41.700 of Eat Sleep

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00:44:43.040 that if you make

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00:44:46.420 existing bed, you

00:44:47.000 don't have to buy a

00:44:47.540 new bed, just the

00:44:48.640 cover, that it

00:44:49.880 changes everything.

00:44:50.600 You get far fewer

00:44:52.100 problems with falling

00:44:52.880 asleep and staying

00:44:54.160 asleep, and so you

00:44:55.060 feel rested the next

00:44:56.420 day.

00:44:56.840 Sleep actually has its

00:44:57.760 desired effect.

00:44:59.040 The Eat Sleep Pod can

00:44:59.920 be used to warm up or

00:45:01.120 cool off your bed, and

00:45:03.400 that matters because

00:45:04.420 temperatures change

00:45:05.700 seasonally.

00:45:06.300 We have climate change

00:45:07.160 in this country.

00:45:07.660 It's called winter.

00:45:09.440 And so you can feel

00:45:09.900 comfortable all night

00:45:10.860 long.

00:45:11.140 It even adjusts to

00:45:12.180 different preferences on

00:45:13.180 either side of the bed,

00:45:14.460 which might be helpful in

00:45:15.980 your relationship if you

00:45:17.000 have one of those

00:45:17.780 relationships where the

00:45:19.540 different partners want

00:45:20.240 different temperatures, and

00:45:21.100 those are pretty common.

00:45:22.300 The Eat Sleep Pod has

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00:45:27.440 Mark Zuckerberg's into it,

00:45:28.420 Elon Musk on the other

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00:45:32.080 here.

00:45:32.380 So try it.

00:45:33.780 Go to eightsleep.com

00:45:35.140 slash Tucker.

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00:45:41.340 Recommended.

00:45:52.660 The Greeks invented

00:45:53.840 philosophy, so if you like

00:45:55.460 philosophy, you're Greek.

00:45:57.080 If you've ever taken a

00:45:58.100 philosophy class, you're

00:45:59.500 Greek.

00:46:00.100 If you've ever skipped a

00:46:01.140 philosophy class, then fail

00:46:02.600 that philosophy class, know

00:46:04.280 a guy named Phil, or even

00:46:05.660 know a guy who knows a guy

00:46:06.700 named Phil, that's good

00:46:07.980 enough.

00:46:08.660 You're Greek.

00:46:09.580 So eat like it.

00:46:10.700 That means ordering

00:46:11.580 delicious euros with tender

00:46:13.440 potatoes from Jimmy the

00:46:14.740 Greek.

00:46:15.200 You deserve it, you

00:46:16.420 philosophical genius, you.

00:46:18.620 You're Greek.

00:46:19.440 Eat like it with Jimmy the

00:46:21.040 Greek.

00:46:21.720 Hashtag Gimme Jimmy.

00:46:25.880 But the point is, we

00:46:28.220 don't seek peace.

00:46:31.140 And especially after 1991, when

00:46:37.000 we got the idea that not only

00:46:39.080 do we not seek peace with

00:46:40.720 anybody, no one can touch us.

00:46:43.280 We're the most powerful

00:46:44.440 country.

00:46:45.100 We can do anything we want.

00:46:46.760 We're the world's sole

00:46:47.700 superpower.

00:46:48.600 We're the indispensable

00:46:49.740 nation.

00:46:50.700 We are the greatest colossus in

00:46:52.820 the history of the world,

00:46:54.240 including the Roman Empire.

00:46:56.820 Every one of those things was

00:46:58.500 said by, again, I'll say

00:47:01.300 grownups who don't act like

00:47:03.080 grownups.

00:47:03.680 But the idea was we can do

00:47:05.220 anything we want.

00:47:06.420 So, Iran, you're our enemy.

00:47:08.800 Axis of evil.

00:47:11.780 We don't have to negotiate with

00:47:14.140 anybody over anything.

00:47:16.820 You know, one of the points

00:47:18.400 that's very interesting about

00:47:20.340 the Ukraine war is a principle

00:47:23.940 that we have.

00:47:25.340 It's stated.

00:47:26.840 It's Article 10 of the NATO

00:47:29.460 charter that we are so proud of,

00:47:32.760 which is that Russia has no say

00:47:36.780 in any decisions we want to make

00:47:41.080 about enlarging NATO up to

00:47:44.060 Russia's borders, that this is not

00:47:46.680 a matter of any legitimate

00:47:49.180 interest of Russia.

00:47:50.980 That's explicit.

00:47:52.520 That's called our open door

00:47:54.100 policy, which is we don't accept

00:47:57.340 even on principle the idea that

00:48:01.040 Russia has any say or any interest

00:48:04.320 in whether Ukraine hosts U.S.

00:48:08.200 military bases and U.S.

00:48:10.960 missile systems.

00:48:11.820 Putin was told by Blinken,

00:48:15.360 according to very knowledgeable

00:48:17.980 sources, in January 2022,

00:48:20.840 that the U.S. reserves the right

00:48:23.660 to put missiles in Ukraine next door.

00:48:27.900 Putin said, ah, but I thought

00:48:29.320 President Biden said that U.S.

00:48:31.240 wouldn't do that.

00:48:32.580 And apparently, I wasn't in that

00:48:34.760 conversation, but apparently the

00:48:36.260 response of Secretary Blinken was,

00:48:39.480 no, no, no, we reserve the right

00:48:41.240 to do what we want.

00:48:42.560 Those are our systems.

00:48:43.980 This is not something you have a

00:48:45.560 say about.

00:48:46.700 So, this is our approach to the

00:48:49.340 world, which is...

00:48:50.860 Because Blinken, so you just

00:48:52.000 revealed something interesting.

00:48:53.180 It sounds like Blinken's running

00:48:54.800 the administration or its foreign

00:48:56.080 policy.

00:48:56.620 Well, who knows who tells Blinken

00:48:59.020 what to do.

00:49:00.100 Who do you think tells him what to

00:49:01.640 do?

00:49:01.980 I think that it's important to

00:49:03.760 understand.

00:49:04.500 This is a big machine.

00:49:05.800 It's a, you know, trillion dollar

00:49:08.240 plus machine, the military

00:49:10.560 industrial system of the United

00:49:12.300 States.

00:49:12.960 It gets set in course in a pretty

00:49:16.980 deep way.

00:49:18.620 There's a strategy.

00:49:20.260 The strategy is not changed when a

00:49:22.960 new president comes to office.

00:49:24.640 They may think they have some say

00:49:26.340 about it, but they have not very

00:49:28.880 much say.

00:49:30.040 The strategy of NATO enlargement, as I

00:49:32.240 said, goes back literally to 1994.

00:49:35.860 So, this has been a 30-year

00:49:37.700 program.

00:49:39.040 It's very deeply entrained.

00:49:41.840 And President Putin has a nice

00:49:44.780 line that I read recently in a

00:49:46.960 forthcoming book where he talks

00:49:49.540 about the fact that he's talked to

00:49:51.080 U.S.

00:49:51.480 presidents.

00:49:51.940 He said it in his interview with

00:49:53.460 you, which is in the morning they

00:49:55.260 say one thing, and then in the

00:49:57.120 afternoon they explain to you, well,

00:49:58.940 it's the opposite because someone

00:50:00.460 has come to them to explain, no, it

00:50:02.840 doesn't work that way.

00:50:04.480 Condi Rice shows up.

00:50:05.400 Yes.

00:50:05.800 And in this forthcoming wonderful

00:50:10.080 book by a historian who tracks this

00:50:13.080 whole period, he quotes Putin as

00:50:15.300 saying that, you know, the president

00:50:17.780 will say something, but then the men

00:50:20.580 in the dark suits and blue ties show

00:50:23.180 up, and they explain to the president

00:50:25.200 how it really is.

00:50:26.480 And I think that this is basically

00:50:29.440 correct, which is there is a

00:50:31.280 permanent state.

00:50:32.680 It is a permanent security state.

00:50:34.760 It is a big business.

00:50:36.320 Remember, we have 750 overseas

00:50:39.720 military bases.

00:50:41.360 We have 6,000 nuclear warheads.

00:50:44.440 We have a trillion dollar military

00:50:47.600 budget on the surface, not to mention

00:50:50.000 other kinds of spending that aren't

00:50:52.400 directly in that budget.

00:50:54.160 This is a big, big machine, and this

00:50:58.480 machine is out explicitly according

00:51:02.380 to every doctrine that is published

00:51:05.420 also, not just private, but published,

00:51:07.880 is out for what was already defined by

00:51:10.540 the Defense Department decades ago as

00:51:13.260 full-spectrum dominance in every part

00:51:16.620 of the world.

00:51:17.960 Full-spectrum dominance is an

00:51:19.540 interesting term, but it means the

00:51:21.640 United States will be the dominant

00:51:23.800 power of every region of the world.

00:51:28.860 It's a kind of crazy idea.

00:51:31.180 I call it completely delusional, in

00:51:34.320 fact, because as you travel and I

00:51:36.760 travel, we see the world in a little

00:51:40.180 bit more symmetric way.

00:51:42.320 Yes, the U.S. is a powerful country, but

00:51:46.580 it's 4.1% of the world population.

00:51:49.500 There's another 95.9% of the world

00:51:52.560 population.

00:51:53.260 They don't quite see themselves as being

00:51:55.820 run by us in every region of the world.

00:51:59.140 And for the U.S. to say we have full-spectrum

00:52:02.820 dominance in Central Asia or on Russia's

00:52:07.620 border.

00:52:08.160 It's silly.

00:52:08.740 Or over other nuclear powers or in East

00:52:16.600 Asia where China has an industrial base

00:52:21.920 twice the size of the United States and a

00:52:24.620 population four times the size of the

00:52:27.400 United States and hundreds of nuclear

00:52:29.820 weapons and their own interests and a

00:52:32.700 civilization that is 10 times longer

00:52:36.020 lived than the United States, that we

00:52:39.000 dominate China.

00:52:41.200 Well, that just seems like a recipe for

00:52:44.900 non-stop war.

00:52:47.320 And in the nuclear age, a recipe for at

00:52:51.800 some moment, whether it's 90 seconds or

00:52:55.520 whenever it is from now triggering the

00:52:59.540 absolutely catastrophic, unimaginable end

00:53:03.980 because we provoke, we don't talk, we

00:53:08.620 provoke.

00:53:09.520 And this is the most important thing that

00:53:13.240 any president needs to understand.

00:53:17.320 So if, um, and I do think Trump

00:53:19.680 understands it.

00:53:20.760 He does, by the way, and J.D.

00:53:22.600 Vance understands it.

00:53:23.940 J.D.

00:53:24.140 Vance definitely understands it.

00:53:24.900 Yes, and this is extremely important

00:53:26.920 because we've not even had candidates

00:53:28.940 talking this way from the major parties

00:53:31.440 for years.

00:53:32.420 So let's say Trump wins, is allowed to

00:53:34.980 win, you know, to be too cynical about

00:53:36.480 our system, which everyone wants to

00:53:37.980 believe in.

00:53:39.420 You know, I think it'd be pretty tough to

00:53:40.960 overcome what you've just described for

00:53:43.020 anybody to overcome that.

00:53:45.960 But let's say Trump wins, Trump and Vance

00:53:48.780 win.

00:53:50.000 What, what are the first things they

00:53:52.800 should do to change the trajectory away

00:53:55.840 from self-defeating, away from the self-harm

00:53:58.680 that we're committing against our own country

00:54:00.520 and toward, you know, toward a series of

00:54:05.060 policies that help the United States and

00:54:06.660 restore sanity to the world?

00:54:08.180 Like, what do you need to do?

00:54:09.260 You know, what both Trump and Vance are saying

00:54:15.440 about Ukraine is exactly right, and it's

00:54:19.420 completely spot on, and it's utterly urgent

00:54:23.820 that it be heard and understood, and that is

00:54:28.280 there is no basis for this war and that it was

00:54:32.800 provoked deliberately, accidentally, on a bluff,

00:54:36.760 whatever, by the U.S. pushing this NATO business

00:54:41.600 up to Russia's border in a way we would never

00:54:44.740 accept in our own hemisphere.

00:54:46.920 So they both get this exactly, and that's great.

00:54:50.680 And they understand this is a completely losing

00:54:54.040 proposition, and that's correct also because

00:54:57.280 if Russia wins, it's a losing proposition.

00:55:01.520 If Russia loses, it's even a bigger losing

00:55:04.180 proposition by the risk of nuclear war.

00:55:07.600 So they get that very much, and Trump is

00:55:11.140 absolutely right also that this war could end

00:55:14.860 in a day.

00:55:15.500 That's not even a rhetorical gloss.

00:55:20.400 This war will end the moment a U.S.

00:55:24.280 president picks up the phone or uses my Zoom

00:55:27.580 account as far as I'm concerned, connects with

00:55:30.580 President Putin and says, you know, that NATO

00:55:33.460 enlargement, that was a bad idea.

00:55:36.260 I don't know how that got started.

00:55:37.920 I know it went on for 30 years, but that's the

00:55:40.580 end of the war.

00:55:41.620 The fighting will stop that moment.

00:55:43.580 There will be things to resolve, but that will

00:55:46.140 be the end of the war because that's the whole

00:55:49.200 premise of this war.

00:55:51.820 And to this moment, the current administration is

00:55:54.820 saying Ukraine will be part of NATO.

00:55:57.360 So they're guaranteeing that the war will go on.

00:56:00.860 So Ukraine, they got it nailed down.

00:56:04.900 What I would want to say to them.

00:56:06.180 But how do you do that, even if you're president?

00:56:08.620 I mean, you said a minute ago, presidents arrive in

00:56:11.300 office with the fantasy that they're in charge, but

00:56:13.720 they're not.

00:56:14.460 These policies.

00:56:14.680 No, the presidents can be in charge.

00:56:21.260 They will sit down and it's like we now see, I

00:56:27.380 think I haven't read the new Poindexter book, which

00:56:30.480 was just reviewed, which dumps on Trump and the

00:56:34.880 Bolton book, which I did read parts of, which I

00:56:37.420 found revolting, but, uh, part, part of what, uh, these

00:56:42.740 aides do is, uh, they try to trick the president.

00:56:47.920 They lied to the president.

00:56:49.660 They try to continue an aggressive agenda.

00:56:52.780 So it takes smarts for a president to be able to pull

00:56:58.160 this off.

00:56:58.780 It absolutely, uh, but.

00:57:02.020 But the president actually has the power to do it, but

00:57:06.180 they have to be really tough and really resolute and

00:57:09.700 they have to know that they're going to hear a lot

00:57:12.140 of bullshit from a lot of people in dark suits in blue

00:57:17.000 with blue ties.

00:57:18.320 They will hear a lot of bullshit because this is a

00:57:21.340 deeply entrained process.

00:57:23.720 Yes.

00:57:24.000 And so that it can be done, uh, it's not impossible.

00:57:33.680 And what makes it more likely right now is that the, I

00:57:38.020 think we're at the end of a 30 year neocon cycle, because

00:57:43.080 remember this started 30 years ago.

00:57:45.500 I saw the beginning of it.

00:57:46.800 I didn't understand it at the time I was advisor to

00:57:49.520 president Yeltsin.

00:57:50.600 I saw the U S was not being cooperative.

00:57:53.220 I couldn't understand why you had a president that

00:57:56.060 wanted democracy in Russia.

00:57:58.120 He wanted normal relations.

00:57:59.640 And the United States was saying to hell with you

00:58:02.240 basically, uh, on many different things.

00:58:04.580 And I didn't get it then, but now I understand of

00:58:08.200 course, much better that this was the beginning of 30

00:58:10.820 years of, we will corner you.

00:58:12.560 We will defeat you.

00:58:13.580 We may dismember you, uh, but we will make sure you're

00:58:17.020 a fifth rate country.

00:58:18.760 Uh, okay.

00:58:20.500 That 30 years, I believe has now been exposed as a terrible

00:58:26.280 failure.

00:58:26.860 So no one could call us foreign policy over the past 30

00:58:32.240 years as a success in any way.

00:58:35.660 Every war we fought has been a disaster.

00:58:39.800 Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Ukraine.

00:58:44.040 These are all wars of choice that we decided that we went in and

00:58:50.800 we've spent, depending on the count, $5 trillion, $7 trillion.

00:58:56.240 We ran up our debt.

00:58:57.880 We busted the economy.

00:58:59.700 We ignored all of our infrastructure and our domestic issues for this

00:59:04.520 remarkably delusional idea that we would run the world.

00:59:08.780 So if Trump and Vance come in, uh, or whoever comes in, they have one

00:59:16.940 advantage, which was no one could call the current course successful.

00:59:21.340 And there are probably people in the deep state, not everybody by any means

00:59:26.460 who know, my God, okay, we've done enough, no more perpetual wars.

00:59:31.840 We better do something different.

00:59:33.200 So the president has the, uh, certainly the constitutional authority.

00:59:41.400 And if they're a smart leader, the capacity to push and they're coming in at a

00:59:48.880 moment where maybe the door is a bit ajar to a change of direction by no means

00:59:55.340 automatic.

00:59:56.020 It's not like the Washington establishment is sitting up and saying, oh, we get it.

01:00:01.420 No, but they can't be sitting there saying it's all working great.

01:00:06.120 So I think that there is that recognition, but the main thing I would say to, uh, to, uh,

01:00:14.580 president Trump and J.D.

01:00:16.440 Vance, if they win or to whoever is president is that lesson that you understand about

01:00:23.580 Ukraine is actually the same with China.

01:00:27.280 That's even a more hard to accept and swallow idea in Washington right now, because in

01:00:36.660 Washington, one idea, I think even J.D.

01:00:41.040 Vance says it, but I really disagree.

01:00:43.180 And I want him to use the same reasoning to understand it is we have no intrinsic fight

01:00:51.720 with China.

01:00:52.940 It ain't true.

01:00:54.860 We have to compete with China economically.

01:00:57.760 We have to compete with China technologically.

01:01:00.040 Of course, we have to trade with China.

01:01:02.100 Also, we should go visit China, by the way, because it's a wonderful place, but we have

01:01:07.020 no intrinsic fight with China.

01:01:09.520 And it's the same logic that they have understood vis-a-vis Ukraine and Russia.

01:01:16.800 We have no intrinsic fight with Russia.

01:01:19.960 We have no intrinsic fight with China.

01:01:22.880 So that's the main thing I want understood, which is all of these debacles are based on

01:01:31.240 the idea that we have to run everyone else's business.

01:01:35.160 We have to determine who's in power.

01:01:37.840 We can even change their borders if we want.

01:01:41.360 We can overthrow their governments.

01:01:42.840 That whole approach has been a disaster for us.

01:01:47.800 A multi-trillion dollar, millions of lives lost worldwide disaster of U.S. foreign policy.

01:01:57.240 And we don't need, for our security, 750 overseas military bases.

01:02:04.980 We don't need that.

01:02:06.480 They're expensive.

01:02:07.780 We need to fix our roads, for God's sake.

01:02:11.440 We need to make our country work properly, because you and I see when we go abroad, the

01:02:16.880 infrastructure abroad sparkles compared to what we live with in the United States.

01:02:21.440 That's the most distressing thing.

01:02:23.260 And it's not even, I've traveled my whole life, as I know you have.

01:02:25.960 And, you know, you're used to thinking of the developing world and then coming back to

01:02:30.340 the kind of respite of the United States.

01:02:32.280 There's nothing like that anymore.

01:02:33.800 You pull into Kennedy or SFO or LAX or Boston Logan from abroad, and the first thing you notice

01:02:41.080 is that it's dirtier and more chaotic.

01:02:43.800 It's less attentive to the individual.

01:02:47.220 It's harsher than the developing country you're flying in from.

01:02:51.480 And it's so heartbreaking.

01:02:53.240 You can't believe, if people traveled more, we'd have a revolution in this country.

01:02:57.000 If they saw that Turkey is nicer than the United States, what?

01:03:01.040 I had a wonderful-

01:03:02.500 Did you feel that?

01:03:03.440 I had a wonderful conversation with an Italian political leader who, I was in northern Italy

01:03:10.020 and Bolzano, beautiful city in the Alps.

01:03:12.820 Yes.

01:03:13.360 And I was saying how sparkling all the infrastructure is.

01:03:16.200 And he kind of sighed and said, yes, it's very nice, but it isn't Oslo and Copenhagen.

01:03:22.620 There it's even more.

01:03:23.860 But then he said, and I was really surprised, but Oslo and Copenhagen, if you go to China right

01:03:29.680 now, they're leaving those places behind.

01:03:33.060 And that's what we see, which is absolutely true.

01:03:36.980 Well, it's just so depressing.

01:03:38.240 It's just so awful.

01:03:39.200 And it's, what's awful about it is that most people don't understand it.

01:03:43.660 They don't know how thoroughly they've been betrayed by their leaders and by the advisors

01:03:48.820 to their leaders, you know, the Bill Crystals of the world who really just don't care at

01:03:51.960 all about the United States at all.

01:03:53.140 Not even, it's not even an afterthought to them.

01:03:55.140 It's all about something very different.

01:03:57.500 And they've been screwed.

01:03:58.940 Like all the money went overseas.

01:04:00.760 Yeah.

01:04:00.980 All the energy is focused abroad.

01:04:02.540 Maybe in their little communities, wherever they live, things are nice enough.

01:04:09.200 But for the rest of America, what are we doing?

01:04:13.300 Why are we pouring unbelievable amounts of money and danger and lives into all of these

01:04:21.580 conflicts?

01:04:22.160 And so my main message to, you know, I, because I, I really think Trump and Vance get it on

01:04:30.040 Ukraine completely, but what I don't want is, and you hear it in Washington is the idea,

01:04:37.040 well, we have to stop that so we can take on our real foe, which is China or Iran or Iran.

01:04:43.220 They're not our real foe in any way, shape or form.

01:04:47.760 We have issues with them.

01:04:49.320 We have competition in the markets and technology, as I said, and in many things, but they're not

01:04:55.560 an enemy and there's no reason for them to be an enemy.

01:04:59.540 And so it's the exactly the same logic.

01:05:02.680 Except on the question of Taiwan, I think there are a lot of people who maybe haven't thought

01:05:07.420 it through who feel like preserving Taiwan's sovereignty to the extent it has sovereignty,

01:05:12.660 I guess, um, is a core American interest.

01:05:15.660 What's your view?

01:05:16.940 The, the issue with Taiwan is that the United States policy, absolutely clear.

01:05:24.180 It's the basis of our diplomatic relations with China is what's called the one China policy,

01:05:30.300 which is that Taiwan is part of China.

01:05:32.860 As everybody knows, there was a civil war in China in 1949, the losing side of the civil

01:05:39.960 war, the KMT, the Kuomintang, uh, fled in their remnants to Taiwan, which, which was part

01:05:49.100 of, uh, it, it was actually, uh, at, at, uh, for a period, a Japanese colony because Japan

01:05:57.320 had invaded the Qing dynasty, uh, and taken, uh, Taiwan away, but it was part of China traditionally

01:06:05.480 in the, uh, Qing period for centuries.

01:06:09.420 But the ROC, the Republic of China, which was the losing side of the civil war, uh, installed

01:06:16.480 themselves as a military government on the island of Taiwan off the coast of the mainland.

01:06:22.400 Now, what's interesting is that the Republic of China, that is the Taiwan installed government

01:06:30.580 on the losing side of the civil war said there's one China, but it's us.

01:06:35.420 And on the other side in Beijing, they also said, yes, we agree.

01:06:39.920 There's one China, but it's us.

01:06:42.020 Uh, and so there wasn't a disagreement of whether there's one China or two Chinas.

01:06:47.500 There's one China, according to the Republic of China and according to the people's Republic

01:06:52.920 of China, people's Republic of China being the mainland, the, the place with the 1.4 billion

01:06:58.700 people.

01:06:59.560 When the U S normalized relations with the people's Republic of China, it said, we do so on the

01:07:07.720 basis of a one China policy that Taiwan is part of China.

01:07:13.120 But the understanding was that, uh, there are two systems because Taiwan has developed now

01:07:21.020 actually for more than a century, partly under the Japanese imperial rule.

01:07:26.880 And then later under the KMT or the, uh, Kuomintang, uh, uh, period, uh, into a market-based system.

01:07:36.740 Uh, and China was not yet a market-based economy at the time.

01:07:40.660 So one country, two systems, and we said there should be peace across the Taiwan straits, uh,

01:07:49.760 so that the two sides should resolve their differences amicably, which to my mind is a perfectly sound

01:07:58.140 and achievable standard.

01:08:00.720 So our policy is that there is one China China's policy by China, I mean, the mainland, there

01:08:08.460 is one China and lurking in China's mind is don't break us apart because we had enough

01:08:18.300 of you, the outside world, breaking us apart from 1839 to 1949, uh, trying in every which

01:08:27.580 way to dismember us, to invade us, which was done repeatedly, as I mentioned earlier.

01:08:33.260 So China's position is yes, there's one China.

01:08:37.760 We want a, uh, an amicable relationship with Taiwan.

01:08:43.560 Uh, we have accepted two systems, uh, and, uh, that principle, but we don't want the United

01:08:53.120 States or anyone else provoking secession, independence, a war across this narrow straits

01:09:03.260 because both sides understand that there is one China and we should not be divided.

01:09:09.980 But in the U S because it's part of our deep state ideology, it is provoke, provoke, weaken,

01:09:19.960 uh, create, uh, divisions, uh, bad mouth name, call, uh, support insurgencies, which we do.

01:09:30.100 I hope no one shocked about that, but that is standard CIA ops.

01:09:34.960 Uh, and, uh, uh, so there is part of our government, which spurs, uh, secession, uh, or independence

01:09:46.300 movements in Taiwan, which would lead to war.

01:09:49.920 Absolutely.

01:09:51.060 And I tell my Taiwanese friends, and I have many Taiwanese friends, don't become the next

01:09:56.720 Ukraine.

01:09:57.840 Uh, don't let the U S create a disaster in your neighborhood.

01:10:02.900 The worst words from the United States are we have your back.

01:10:07.120 That's what we told the post coup government of Ukraine in 2014.

01:10:13.520 That is 600,000 dead, uh, caused by that kind of idea.

01:10:21.820 So I tell my Taiwanese friends, take a deep breath and, uh, don't be provoked into something

01:10:29.760 extremely dangerous because there are hotheads in the United States that want to provoke and

01:10:37.260 that shouldn't be provoking and that provoke completely against our own diplomacy.

01:10:43.080 Now in 1982, the U S and China signed a communicates very important.

01:10:50.460 People can go online and look it up.

01:10:52.820 And it was a statement by the United States that said, we have no intention to arm Taiwan

01:11:00.280 for the longterm.

01:11:01.820 We are providing arms for Taiwan now because historically we backed Taiwan, but now we have

01:11:08.120 established diplomatic relations with PRC, but we have no intention of doing this for the

01:11:13.700 longterm.

01:11:15.000 In fact, we will taper off our arms support for Taiwan and it will come to an end.

01:11:22.580 That was 1982.

01:11:25.180 That's like so many things.

01:11:27.260 As the United States promises and then reneges on, uh, it's essentially the same as the promise

01:11:34.740 that was made to Gorbachev and to Yeltsin in 1990, 91, 92, that NATO would never enlarge.

01:11:42.320 In other words, we say things, we sign documents, we make communiques, but we regard them, uh, as, uh,

01:11:52.440 as, uh, opportunistic moments because we want our complete freedom of action.

01:11:59.400 In my view, our smart diplomacy would be very straightforward.

01:12:05.980 Uh, we would not have what we call strategic ambiguity, which is a term that is so wrongheaded

01:12:16.460 in my view, but it is meaning we won't say what we'll really do about Taiwan, uh, and what we really

01:12:24.960 feel will keep the other side, uh, uh, guessing.

01:12:29.080 Oh, why?

01:12:29.860 So that we have an accidental nuclear war.

01:12:32.280 What, what, what, what do we want them to, what do we want them to guess about exactly?

01:12:36.700 What I would like us to say very clearly is of course we support a one China policy.

01:12:44.260 We will not arm Taiwan over the opposition of Beijing, not only because it's one country

01:12:52.320 and we should not arm parts of another country over the opposition of the government that

01:12:59.340 we recognize, but we understand it's incredibly provocative to do so.

01:13:04.440 But on the other side, we and the world community expect China in, uh, the government in Beijing

01:13:15.440 and the government in, uh, Taipei in Taiwan to work amicably so that there is no military

01:13:26.260 attack by China on Taiwan.

01:13:30.240 And there is no reason in the world why they would do so if it's understood that it is one

01:13:37.860 China and it's a matter of working things out.

01:13:40.440 What about the argument you often hear, um, that Beijing wants Taipei because of TSMC because

01:13:46.960 of semiconductors that the world needs that AI will need in order to become, you know, driver

01:13:52.460 of the new world economy, et cetera, et cetera.

01:13:54.140 But that that's the prize, semiconductors in Taiwan, and we cannot allow mainland China

01:14:00.060 to have them.

01:14:00.660 Uh, well, uh, so many things first, um, that, uh, supply chain will not be disrupted, uh,

01:14:11.940 by the mainland for us and our needs, as long as we don't provoke a war.

01:14:17.940 So from one point of view, uh, we have a, uh, we have a, uh, uh, uh, circumstance in our

01:14:27.820 country that we design advanced microchips, but we don't produce them.

01:14:31.860 Uh, and, uh, that was a decision, uh, that went back to the 1970s where we basically decided

01:14:39.100 as a matter of policy, not just at the industry level, but at the national political level that

01:14:45.140 we would outsource, uh, production to Korea, to Japan, uh, and then, uh, in Taiwan, this

01:14:52.680 came from a very clever person, uh, Morris Chang, who established, uh, the Taiwan Semiconductor

01:14:59.000 Manufacturing Corporation, TSMC.

01:15:01.260 So nothing about TSMC per se, uh, is at stake in this.

01:15:08.960 Actually, it is the case right now that the U S is imposing sanctions on, uh, TSMC exporting

01:15:19.160 advanced, uh, microchips to China.

01:15:22.700 I don't support that policy at all.

01:15:25.860 Uh, I think that the idea of doing it is wrongheaded and provocative and, uh, not actually

01:15:33.680 in anybody's interest.

01:15:35.040 It's part of the U S misguided attempt to quote, contain a country that is larger, uh, very

01:15:45.080 clever, technologically sophisticated, and will engineer around these restrictions in

01:15:52.020 short order.

01:15:52.720 And that's my guess of, uh, with our technology export bands, we're not really accomplishing

01:15:58.760 anything except speeding up China's, uh, ability to, uh, innovate around, uh, any of the U S

01:16:07.820 bands.

01:16:08.460 So I don't see TSMC as really, uh, an important part of this story.

01:16:15.580 There may be people who do, I think they're wrong.

01:16:18.600 Uh, I believe, and that's the point I'm trying to make.

01:16:21.740 If we don't provoke, if we treat China as we should, uh, as, uh, another great power, uh,

01:16:30.500 as by the way, a really great civilization with lots of wisdom and lots of history and

01:16:36.700 lots of beauty and lots of culture, uh, and, uh, lots, uh, that can be shared with us as

01:16:42.200 a great manufacturing power, but not one that is, uh, out to go conquer the rest of the world

01:16:50.140 because China is not, we will have perfectly fine relations.

01:16:55.300 China will continue to develop.

01:16:58.680 Interestingly, I think people should understand China is now a larger economy than the United

01:17:03.260 States, but not in per capita terms.

01:17:06.420 It's still, uh, around a third of the U S per capita income level.

01:17:10.460 So it's, it's not as if we're facing some, uh, you know, impossible, uh, uh, you know,

01:17:18.020 threat that is about to overtake the United States.

01:17:21.440 They're just trying to catch up for lost time.

01:17:23.960 Uh, they're trying to develop, they're doing an excellent job of it.

01:17:27.620 They're very clever.

01:17:28.540 They're working very, very hard.

01:17:30.080 They're working very long hours.

01:17:31.660 They're saving and investing a lot.

01:17:34.100 They're building a modern economy and all credit to them.

01:17:37.980 As far as I'm concerned, uh, they're, they're doing it the right way.

01:17:42.080 Saving investment, education, innovation, uh, and, uh, and, and, uh, catching up, uh, which

01:17:48.720 they needed to do after a really horrible 150 years, uh, basically.

01:17:54.640 We want to announce something big that we've been working on for months now.

01:17:57.640 It's a documentary series called art of the surge.

01:18:00.720 It's all behind the scene footage shot by an embedded team that has never before seen footage

01:18:06.840 of what it's actually like to run for president.

01:18:09.280 If you're Donald Trump, they were there at the Butler township assassination attempt, for

01:18:13.700 example, and got footage that no one has ever seen before.

01:18:16.420 And it's amazing.

01:18:17.820 Become a member at Tucker Carlson.com to see this series art of the surge.

01:18:23.380 So I'm everything you've said for the last, I don't even know how long we've been sitting

01:18:42.660 here, but last, you know, hour and a half or whatever hour and 20 it's been, um, I've

01:18:49.020 never heard on NBC's CBS, read the New York times.

01:18:52.960 I mean, these are all ideas and perspectives that are just missing from big media outlets

01:18:58.840 in the United States.

01:18:59.720 You've been banned from those outlets after spending a life, a lifetime on them.

01:19:04.240 Um, so the only reason that we're able to have this conversation is because we're doing

01:19:08.620 it on social media, on alternative media.

01:19:11.960 It seems to me that if you're running a regime, a government that has really unpopular and destructive

01:19:18.840 policies, you have to shut down these kinds of conversations.

01:19:22.840 We just saw Pablo Durev, the founder and owner of Telegram, jailed in France.

01:19:28.200 It is unbelievable, but it's also, it's also believable.

01:19:31.280 No, but it's so crude and so, uh, disgusting and so dangerous, of course.

01:19:37.200 So, but it also strikes me as like a, a herbinger.

01:19:41.380 I mean, that's, that looks like the future to me.

01:19:43.400 What do you, I mean, will there be, uh, you know, free exchange of information 20 years

01:19:50.300 from now?

01:19:52.320 It's a, it's a big question.

01:19:54.160 You know, I, uh, uh, I, I was on, uh, a show with someone that I've liked and known

01:20:02.240 and, uh, you know him as well and, uh, that I've admired for decades.

01:20:07.160 Dmitry Symes, who's a Russian American, uh, who lives, uh, sometime in the United States,

01:20:14.460 sometimes, uh, in Moscow.

01:20:16.880 Uh, he was, uh, a young advisor to Richard Nixon, uh, who by the way, had a lot of intelligent

01:20:25.560 ideas about, uh, relations with China and relations with Russia, uh, that I, uh, admire more and

01:20:33.900 more in retrospect, uh, uh, as well.

01:20:36.900 Um, but, uh, Dmitry Symes, uh, home was raided, uh, by the FBI.

01:20:44.500 Uh, and I, I found it, uh, especially unnerving cause I was on his show, uh, by zoom, uh, you

01:20:52.500 know, his, uh, his, uh, talk show, very serious discussions about how to avoid a nuclear war,

01:20:59.600 the kinds of things we're talking about and they're raiding his house.

01:21:03.400 And of course, we're seeing more and more of that, uh, all over the United States.

01:21:08.340 We know, you know, much more about it than I do, but we know, and your phenomenal, uh,

01:21:14.440 interview with Bobby Kennedy, uh, also explained a lot of it, how much, uh, is being shut down

01:21:20.880 on the social media, how the government, uh, basically leans on, uh, our leans on platforms,

01:21:29.100 uh, that, uh, are trying to get, uh, some normal discussion, uh, going on.

01:21:35.840 Uh, I, I don't know how much I'm supposed to say about it, but, uh, um, I think I can say

01:21:42.960 that, uh, you know, one of my favorites, uh, judge Napolitano, who, uh, I, uh, uh, uh, discussed

01:21:50.840 these issues with, uh, had, uh, his, uh, YouTube account, uh, closed for a week because of something

01:21:58.800 that a guest said, uh, that suddenly they told him that's one strike.

01:22:05.200 Do that again.

01:22:06.300 That's two strikes.

01:22:07.400 If it happens the third time, you're off permanently.

01:22:09.800 This is a weird, dangerous situation we have in our country, which was founded on the principle

01:22:17.480 that there is a marketplace of ideas that you discuss things that, that if you want to

01:22:22.580 have a free country, you need an informed citizenry.

01:22:25.960 It's, it's absolutely fundamental and it is completely at risk right now.

01:22:33.040 If you can be punished for criticizing a regime, isn't that regime by definition a dictatorship?

01:22:37.500 We are, uh, in any event, uh, it has to be understood.

01:22:43.400 The American people have only the slightest say, uh, and slightest knowledge about what

01:22:50.340 our government does abroad.

01:22:51.980 Uh, the American people have more knowledge to some extent about what it does at home, but

01:22:58.420 what it does abroad has been deliberately, uh, made highly, uh, secret.

01:23:06.960 And confidential for decades.

01:23:09.120 And so, uh, some of it is obvious and in broad daylight, but all denied when it does it.

01:23:17.220 You know, I talked about the U S role in the coup in Ukraine in February, 2014, that is a

01:23:25.360 covert regime change operation.

01:23:27.660 According to the, the technical jargon, we do that for a living.

01:23:32.300 Like, uh, this is how the U S operates dozens and dozens of overthrows of foreign governments.

01:23:39.380 I've seen many close up because I'm, I'm an economic advisor.

01:23:44.720 I'm not a, a military advisor, but presidents say things to me, or I see with my own eyes,

01:23:50.880 these occurrences, but none of it shows up in our domestic discourse.

01:23:59.560 That's why that permanent state machine runs on its own to a large extent and why it is

01:24:09.760 the unique job of a president to stop it.

01:24:13.780 Because I regard the job of, of a proper job of a president is to stop the war machine.

01:24:20.860 It's the number one job.

01:24:22.800 If you have a president that's not mentally competent, and I think that's probably the

01:24:27.180 situation with Biden right now, or not a very clever precedent, which may have been the situation

01:24:32.520 before with Biden, uh, or one who has bought into the military industrial complex, they don't

01:24:38.160 even know what their most basic job is.

01:24:40.180 So whether it's through, uh, laziness or, uh, being pushed or, uh, being lied to by AIDS or

01:24:50.480 being of that mindset or being of no mindset, we are a war machine.

01:24:55.560 And, uh, and that is not known by the American people.

01:25:01.300 So that, you know, the, the famous Eisenhower retirement speech.

01:25:05.180 Yes.

01:25:05.980 Which I, I just watched last year.

01:25:07.980 Well addressed January 17th, 1961.

01:25:12.200 Amazing.

01:25:13.440 I'm almost sure that's the date.

01:25:15.120 Amazing.

01:25:15.680 I'm almost sure.

01:25:16.520 I've often heard it referred to, um, but I'd never, I've never, it's on YouTube.

01:25:20.780 I watched it one day on the treadmill.

01:25:23.040 Uh, and I was really struck by it.

01:25:25.700 It's much more intense than it is given credit for being, but he seems to suggest this began

01:25:31.840 with the war, the second world war.

01:25:33.720 Do you think that's right?

01:25:35.180 Well, it began, uh, with the, the national security act of 1947.

01:25:41.140 Uh, it, it began with the creation of the CIA, uh, and the empowerment of the CIA to engage

01:25:50.680 in, uh, blatantly illegal, uh, vulgar, uh, activities, of course, including assassinations

01:26:01.860 of foreign leaders, overthrows of foreign governments, and to do so on a completely secretive way.

01:26:08.820 And with an agenda, of course, the agenda, which even predates, uh, 1947, it goes back

01:26:17.060 to 1945.

01:26:18.060 And by some accounts, uh, even earlier, uh, was that the CIA was the instrument to confront

01:26:25.940 the Soviet union, to defeat the Soviet union, to overthrow the Soviet union, to dismantle

01:26:31.640 the Soviet union.

01:26:32.520 But that it was the, uh, it, it was the instrument of our, uh, we used to call it the war on communism.

01:26:40.960 But what's interesting is that after communism ended, the war on Russia continued exactly the

01:26:46.660 same way.

01:26:47.100 So it's, it's not really about communism.

01:26:49.480 Apparently not.

01:26:50.160 It's, it's, it's really about a big, uh, country that, uh, the U S resents for being

01:26:56.780 a big country.

01:26:57.420 That's basically what this is about.

01:26:59.060 The U S does not like peers, uh, and that was especially the idea of why should we have

01:27:06.360 peers?

01:27:06.920 We need full spectrum dominance.

01:27:09.500 We need to run things.

01:27:11.520 We need to be the indispensable country.

01:27:13.440 We need to be the world's only superpower.

01:27:16.520 It's quite a vision.

01:27:17.960 Uh, it gets you into a lot of trouble because most of the rest of the world doesn't see

01:27:23.400 things the way you do, but that goes back to, uh, especially the institutional creation

01:27:30.880 of the CIA, because the precursor, the OSS was, you know, doing things during world war

01:27:38.380 two.

01:27:38.700 Okay.

01:27:38.920 That's a, we were, we were in a world war, uh, but, uh, that kind of covert operation

01:27:45.440 continued and it became a cornerstone of American foreign policy, but it means completely secret

01:27:55.820 and sort of took over the whole government though.

01:27:58.280 By being completely secret, uh, you can do things that are absolutely unbelievable.

01:28:04.080 And, uh, you know, I think you believe, but I certainly believe that the CIA, uh, had

01:28:09.460 its role in the coup in the United States in 1963, uh, which was the assassination of

01:28:16.680 I think that's, I think that's confirmed.

01:28:18.360 I mean, it was confirmed by me, by someone who saw the documents.

01:28:22.440 The implications of that are so profound, not only, uh, was it, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, a murder

01:28:30.320 most foul as, uh, as Bob Dylan said in that incredible song that he wrote about it.

01:28:38.660 Uh, but it in a way marked the end of our democratic institutions because the presidents after that,

01:28:48.220 uh, maybe they are afraid for their lives.

01:28:51.920 Maybe they are, uh, absolutely, uh, paralyzed.

01:28:55.860 Maybe the CIA got away with something so extraordinary, a murder in broad daylight with plenty of eyewitnesses

01:29:04.160 that pointed out some, there was a conspiracy underway because shots were coming from different

01:29:10.060 directions and they got away with a narrative that was so absurd, uh, so, uh, uh, uh, shoved

01:29:18.140 down our, uh, our throats that nobody believed it, but it didn't matter.

01:29:23.340 Uh, and now it's, uh, 61 years later.

01:29:26.000 So who talks about it?

01:29:27.300 It's a, you know, it's a footnote.

01:29:28.700 So maybe they learned, oh, we can get away with everything, including regime change in

01:29:33.160 our own country.

01:29:34.260 Well, what'd you think of the, the attempt to assassination of Trump?

01:29:37.160 We don't know the story.

01:29:38.640 Uh, it's, it's absolutely shocking.

01:29:42.380 We don't know the story and whether we ever will know the story, uh, is like so many other

01:29:48.000 things right now that are huge events.

01:29:51.540 Uh, we talked briefly about COVID, you know, I, I think it came out of a lab.

01:29:56.860 That's one of the biggest events in history.

01:29:58.860 Oh, that's so passe.

01:29:59.980 Who wants to talk about that anymore?

01:30:02.300 Assassination attempt on Trump.

01:30:03.900 That's, isn't that weeks ago?

01:30:05.760 That's, uh, you know, that's old news.

01:30:07.680 We don't even talk about that anymore.

01:30:09.580 Blowing up Nord Stream, uh, some cockamamie story.

01:30:13.020 Yeah.

01:30:13.200 A few people in a sailboat.

01:30:14.660 Oh, it was Ukrainians.

01:30:15.980 Oh, it was this, oh, it was, you know, this is part of, we have no attention span.

01:30:20.480 We have complete lying from the government.

01:30:23.120 Uh, we have secrecy and confidentiality.

01:30:25.920 So we never actually resolve any of these issues because it's very hard to have a systematic,

01:30:34.240 methodical discussion where one discusses and then where there's a response.

01:30:39.860 It, the, the, the thing that gets me about, uh, Washington is they don't feel they have

01:30:46.840 to respond to anything.

01:30:49.240 And you watch the spokespeople, Matt Miller at the state department or Kirby in the white

01:30:56.000 house.

01:30:56.280 They smirk in right in your face to tell you, you are nothing.

01:31:03.520 We can tell anything to you.

01:31:05.380 Do you understand?

01:31:06.500 I mean, that's my interpretation.

01:31:08.160 I agree.

01:31:08.660 They smirk.

01:31:09.940 The contempt they have for the people who pay their salaries who own this country is shocking.

01:31:14.140 For the salary they pay.

01:31:15.320 Can't they get the smirk off their face?

01:31:17.340 You know, it'd be, it would be like getting spit at by your housekeeper.

01:31:20.680 This is, I'm sorry, you're fired now.

01:31:22.320 No, no, no, no, no.

01:31:22.980 It's exactly, you see it that they know that they're, they, they have the little laugh at

01:31:29.680 the end.

01:31:30.120 So it's, it's the carefree lie, but we're talking about absolutely essential issues.

01:31:38.340 And that's what's missing in our discussion right now.

01:31:42.240 And it's, and, and it is closed down systematically if you try, if you, you, you just can't discuss

01:31:51.560 the things.

01:31:52.420 Can I, can I take it, I'm, I have trouble staying on track as well.

01:31:55.660 There are so many questions, but just back to Durov, Pavel Durov.

01:31:58.820 Yes.

01:31:59.120 In jail in France right now.

01:32:01.540 Is there any chance the Macron government arrested him without coordination from the Biden

01:32:08.620 administration?

01:32:09.820 Probably not.

01:32:10.680 I think the network that people should understand, again, this is, it's not exactly out there

01:32:17.780 to, to go read off the shelf, how it works, but the intelligence agencies are a network

01:32:25.920 in and of themselves.

01:32:28.180 So whether Blinken knew about this beforehand, I don't know.

01:32:32.660 Did the CIA know about this?

01:32:34.880 Far more likely.

01:32:36.100 It's interesting when you look, for example, at negotiations, these endless, hopeless negotiations

01:32:45.100 on a ceasefire in Gaza, hopeless, by the way, because of Israeli absolute lack of interest

01:32:53.360 at a ceasefire, just to say that.

01:32:55.960 But when you look at when the negotiations take place, who goes?

01:32:59.500 You would think it might be our diplomats.

01:33:03.100 No, it's the CIA and Mossad.

01:33:06.600 It's a little weird.

01:33:08.400 Those are, quote unquote, intelligence agencies.

01:33:11.920 They're doing the negotiations.

01:33:13.900 That part's not hidden because you have to say, okay, Mossad and the CIA and Hamas counterpart.

01:33:19.540 I would see, so as if it's its own government or-

01:33:22.860 As if it's the leader of our foreign policy.

01:33:26.080 Exactly.

01:33:26.640 I thought CIA was, by charter, an intelligence gathering agency.

01:33:30.720 By charter, it is two things, by the way, literally by charter.

01:33:35.000 It is an intelligence gathering agency and it is any other mission.

01:33:39.660 That is exactly how it became the covert operations enterprise.

01:33:48.420 And one more thing I think that is worth pointing out, by the way, about the CIA, because we should

01:33:54.080 take note of it.

01:33:55.200 There has been one and only one congressional review of the CIA, and that was 49 years ago.

01:34:06.120 1975.

01:34:06.480 Next year will be the 50th anniversary of the church committee.

01:34:11.900 And maybe President Trump and Vice President Vance, if they're in power, maybe they would

01:34:18.120 call for another congressional investigation.

01:34:19.160 Well, Trump in his intro of Bobby Kennedy on this past Friday, when Kennedy endorsed him,

01:34:26.640 said that he would like a commission to look into the CIA's involvement or look into the

01:34:32.080 Kennedy assassination.

01:34:33.620 You know, it's interesting.

01:34:34.440 It was a very strange confluence that allowed that one time for the CIA to be looked into

01:34:43.180 because Nixon had resigned.

01:34:46.920 Ford was president, but had come directly from Congress.

01:34:51.960 And so Ford had this sense in 1975 that he wasn't, you know, directly elected president,

01:34:59.740 and he respected Congress because he really came from Congress.

01:35:03.320 So he actually told his chief of staff, who was Dick Cheney, let this happen, you know,

01:35:11.280 because Cheney was trying to close down church and probably could have closed down the church

01:35:16.020 commission.

01:35:16.700 But there was this odd confluence that enabled this tiny moment when the CIA operations could

01:35:25.120 be reviewed.

01:35:25.740 When they lifted the cover, it was horror after horror after horror.

01:35:31.460 Because when church started, he didn't know that he was going to uncover a plethora of assassinations

01:35:39.920 and assassination attempts and mass surveillance of the U.S. public and regime change operations

01:35:48.880 and many other things.

01:35:49.980 Well, that cover was put back down, as Bobby said in your interview with him, those committees

01:35:58.980 in Congress that are, quote unquote, overseeing the CIA are the protectors to make sure that

01:36:05.440 no one looks right now.

01:36:07.260 But it's been 50 years, a half a century since we've had an account of what has really gone

01:36:14.860 on.

01:36:15.180 Well, I see things, I don't like what I see, and I don't see them because somehow it's my

01:36:25.360 area of knowledge or responsibility.

01:36:27.620 I see them on the side, like when the president of Haiti told me one day, Jeff, they're going

01:36:37.100 to kill me.

01:36:39.740 They're going to take me away.

01:36:42.420 And I said, no, no, no.

01:36:44.620 And I thought he was being figurative and metaphorical.

01:36:50.760 And I said, no, everything's going to be all right.

01:36:52.860 I'm going to help you get this loan, blah, blah, blah, blah.

01:36:54.960 Of course, the upshot of it was, as usual, I was naive.

01:36:58.620 And they took Aristide out to an unmarked CIA plane one day as president of Haiti and flew

01:37:07.060 him to the Central African Republic and deposed him.

01:37:10.020 And deposed him literally in broad daylight.

01:37:13.160 I mean, it was the middle of the day and the U.S. ambassador walked him out to this unmarked

01:37:16.860 plane.

01:37:17.100 But the interesting story for me was that I called, since I was an economic advisor a little

01:37:26.240 bit and a friend and don't like presidents getting taken out to CIA unmarked planes and

01:37:33.620 flown to center of Africa.

01:37:35.660 I called the reporter on the beat of the New York Times and I said to her, could you cover

01:37:44.980 this story?

01:37:45.640 There's just been a coup.

01:37:47.400 She said to me, my editor's not interested.

01:37:52.640 That's my editor's not interested.

01:37:55.160 That's a literal quote because I was, my jaw dropped so stunned, even the phrasing of it.

01:38:03.300 But the New York Times would not cover a coup in broad daylight by the CIA in Haiti when

01:38:11.020 it occurred.

01:38:12.740 And why do you think that is?

01:38:14.180 Because these are organizations that serve the American power structure and they are both

01:38:25.900 suborned by them because they get their information from the CIA.

01:38:31.000 They probably have, you know, literal people on staff that are part of the USG in one way.

01:38:38.920 Uh, and, uh, they, their sources and everything else, and they view it as patriotic also when

01:38:45.740 the government says not a good thing to handle.

01:38:48.000 And so they don't view themselves as the, uh, as the defenders of democracy.

01:38:53.420 They view themselves as the defenders of, uh, of, of the permanent state.

01:38:57.660 And, uh, they absolutely do.

01:39:00.080 So you think that the intel agencies play a role in shaping news coverage?

01:39:03.780 Well, I think that there's no question at all.

01:39:06.980 Some places are just literal mouthpieces of the CIA.

01:39:11.520 I don't think anyone doubts that the Washington Post is just, just the place where you, the

01:39:18.540 CIA issues its statements.

01:39:21.180 Sometimes by the way, helpful because sometimes the intelligence community wants the public

01:39:26.080 to understand something.

01:39:27.260 That's right.

01:39:27.660 Uh, so it's not all wrong or all misinformation.

01:39:31.100 No, no, that's absolutely true.

01:39:32.340 But of course, that is the place to go to, to hear what the CIA says.

01:39:39.520 And the Wall Street Journal, the Wall Street Journal too.

01:39:41.460 Yeah.

01:39:41.680 It's, it's not subtle.

01:39:43.460 It's, it's not even close.

01:39:46.680 What's amazing though, is that any counter narrative, there's no room for that in any of these papers.

01:39:56.620 So then you have the CIA or the, you know, the whole panoply of agencies, but acting not simply as sources, but really as masters.

01:40:05.420 Like they're controlling the coverage.

01:40:07.560 The idea is, yes, you know, the, I think the, the most important cliched word is the narrative.

01:40:15.920 There needs to be a story.

01:40:18.660 They control the narrative.

01:40:20.840 It's like Orwell told us, he who controls the past, controls the present, who controls the present, controls the future.

01:40:28.720 They have to shape the past.

01:40:30.100 They have to define everything.

01:40:31.360 They need their narrative.

01:40:32.920 And that's what these mainstream outlets do is have their narrative.

01:40:40.140 They're, they have completely, completely lost the idea of even one time saying, well, there's this argument and then there's the argument on the other side.

01:40:53.700 And perhaps having competing columns or trying to understand this.

01:40:59.840 I think we talked last time, I tried to get 700 words in the New York Times.

01:41:04.980 I got up to the point where they actually edited my piece before they killed it, but they would not run a 700 word story from someone who knows, I think about as much of, about the Ukraine crisis going back for more than 30 years as I, I'd say most of the people that write for them.

01:41:26.100 And they won't, they're not interested in any other side.

01:41:32.440 There's a narrative.

01:41:33.900 And so that is how it works.

01:41:35.620 The narrative does not have to be believable, by the way.

01:41:38.620 Most of the time, it's not believed.

01:41:41.180 The Warren, Russia blew up the North Stream pipeline.

01:41:44.120 The Warren Commission was not believed by the American people.

01:41:48.960 The, most Americans believe that there was a lab leak that caused the pandemic.

01:41:55.660 Most Americans, I would suppose, believe that, that the U.S. blew up Nord Stream or, you know, certainly had its, had its role in it.

01:42:05.580 So these narratives are not believed, but they, they buy enough time that the attention goes away and you get onto something else.

01:42:15.000 It's just a way to, to make sure that there's no need to answer anything, no accountability.

01:42:23.840 That's what this is about.

01:42:25.260 Not convincing people of outlandishly weird stories.

01:42:30.140 The lone gunman who killed President Kennedy when everyone's pointing in another direction and the count of the bullets says something else and blah, blah, blah.

01:42:39.800 No, you don't have to believe it, but you need to be able to say something for long enough that something else comes up and that you stop talking about the previous thing.

01:42:49.840 And it's extremely dangerous because what it means is that beneath that, it's not to convince people, it's to have the ability to do what you want to do and know that you won't be held accountable for it.

01:43:04.780 So I do think though, a wrinkle in the program, a huge problem for the people who've been conducting their affairs this way is alternative media.

01:43:17.760 Absolutely.

01:43:18.360 Which went from being really niche and kind of far out and not credible to being the, the.

01:43:24.220 It's the only place you can find information.

01:43:26.200 Exactly, exactly.

01:43:27.580 So Judge Napolitano, for example.

01:43:29.020 Yes.

01:43:29.280 Who's a really sweet man.

01:43:30.800 Yep.

01:43:30.960 I worked with him, lost his last job.

01:43:33.100 Yep.

01:43:33.940 I don't know if he's ever said that in public, but I know.

01:43:36.420 He's a terrific guy.

01:43:37.300 I saw it.

01:43:37.960 Absolutely terrific guy.

01:43:38.800 He lost his last job for having views on foreign policy that were not consistent with what you were supposed to say.

01:43:44.240 He got fired for it.

01:43:45.560 And so he winds up doing his own little tiny thing on YouTube and all of a sudden it becomes a real thing.

01:43:50.680 Yeah, because you talk, you reason.

01:43:53.040 Exactly.

01:43:53.700 He looks at evidence and you can't find that in what used to be.

01:43:58.820 But Rogan's like some sort of MMA fighter, comedian, sitcom actor just starts doing this little program on something called a podcast and becomes the biggest thing in the world.

01:44:08.300 So that is just a massive, that's too big a threat.

01:44:11.780 Elon Musk making rockets then buys Twitter and then opens it up.

01:44:16.960 These are, these are the biggest threats they face.

01:44:19.640 So, I mean, they can't allow that to continue, can they?

01:44:23.320 Well, this is a Surov.

01:44:25.040 They just arrested.

01:44:26.140 Well, that's it.

01:44:26.760 You know, Elon is a force of nature, of course, and may be able to face down the USG.

01:44:38.660 But we know, and you know, Elon has really been very clear, very brave and doing the right things.

01:44:47.800 But we know that the other platforms are already so heavily policed and with US engagement.

01:44:54.980 And we heard about it again.

01:44:56.560 Government engagement.

01:44:57.280 From Bobby Kennedy.

01:44:58.900 And, but we know it also.

01:45:01.100 And we saw it with Judge Napolitano also.

01:45:04.600 You know, here's the threat.

01:45:06.860 You deviate.

01:45:08.900 Even a guest deviates from our narrative.

01:45:12.860 You got two times, but the third time you're off our network.

01:45:17.140 Who was the guest, by the way?

01:45:18.240 The guest was Pepe Escobar, who's a reporter, journalist, provocative.

01:45:26.660 And I don't even know the details, but this is the threat.

01:45:32.480 And I see it on, you know, many YouTube channels.

01:45:35.620 There are certain words you, you know, must not say, even if you needed to define something specifically, because they'll boot you off.

01:45:45.600 And this is already clear now that we're seemingly getting to the next stage of ransacking houses and other kinds of threats.

01:45:56.940 It's, um, it, it, it, it could be that, uh, as all of these foreign policy strategies, uh, this, uh, hegemonic strategy doesn't work and is unraveling on many fronts.

01:46:14.060 Maybe the proponents of that, uh, are doing their own kind of escalation to keep things in train.

01:46:22.540 And the interesting thing is, I think, uh, there are three main points that we're seeing right now.

01:46:29.020 One is the foreign policies of failure.

01:46:31.480 So it doesn't deliver whether it's fair, unfair, right, wrong, lied.

01:46:36.860 It just doesn't work.

01:46:38.180 Uh, it's gotten the United States into trillions of dollars of failed wars.

01:46:42.620 Everyone can see this.

01:46:43.840 The American people do not back our foreign policy at all.

01:46:47.740 So that's, uh, I, I think, uh, uh, one, uh, point.

01:46:52.140 Second, we're seeing politicians that are starting to say, no, we've got to do something a different way.

01:46:59.160 So that's extremely important.

01:47:00.540 And third, uh, we, we have, uh, the truth coming out in, uh, in, in, uh, these kinds of conversations, uh, that, uh, even if, uh, the, the so-called mainstream media won't do it, people are tuning in.

01:47:16.460 And, and they're tuning out of, uh, the, the, the, the boring tablum narratives that they don't believe, uh, of the mainstream.

01:47:23.740 Uh, and that's consequential too.

01:47:25.520 I actually invited you to come talk about the economy since you are an economic advisor.

01:47:42.180 Yeah, once in a while.

01:47:44.240 Um, but I couldn't resist asking you about the state of the world, the state of our economy, many parts of it.

01:47:50.900 But I'm really fixated on credit card debt and how high it is, is that, it's obviously something to worry about for the people who hold it, but how big a factor is it in the health of the economy?

01:48:02.720 What do you make of that?

01:48:03.540 Why is it so high?

01:48:04.460 Highest ever?

01:48:06.320 Well, I think the, the main thing to understand about our economy is, uh, that for the last 40 years or so, we've had two economies.

01:48:14.380 We've had an economy of, uh, college, uh, grads, uh, and professionals, uh, who have done quite well.

01:48:23.060 And we've had an economy of, uh, high school grads and working class that have really had a hard time and they have a lot of debt and they have a lot of, uh, difficulties.

01:48:33.560 And, uh, we've had, uh, basically two worlds, uh, in, in, in our one nation that don't communicate very clearly with each other.

01:48:43.440 And that's our, our basic economic reality.

01:48:47.640 And so, so that, that means that, uh, you know, things like, we, we know that, uh, uh, and, and many surveys, Fed data, uh, which collects this kind of information, uh, has looked at it.

01:49:01.340 Well, how many people in this country could not manage a sudden $400 emergency, uh, you know, whether it's dental or some medical or prescription or something tires and it's, and it's a, a huge proportion of, of the country.

01:49:16.760 And, uh, if, you know, in, in my neck of the woods, it's, it's not even known in, in a sense, because, uh, you know, I, I live in a world, uh, of, uh, people who are earning good incomes and, uh, uh, where things look completely different.

01:49:38.520 I mean, I'm aware of it cause I've written about it for decades, uh, and said, you know, this is our, our challenge and our, our real problem and we don't face up to it, but that's, that's the reality.

01:49:50.780 So the credit card debt is not, uh, the professional class, uh, out on big binges.

01:49:56.040 It's, uh, people trying to make ends meet, uh, and, uh, can't necessarily put food on the table for the family, can't face a medical emergency of which we have a rising, uh, number of, uh, part of our population, uh, uh, that is experiencing that.

01:50:12.300 And, and, and that's our real situation.

01:50:15.440 We don't deal with it.

01:50:17.800 We don't talk about it very clearly.

01:50:19.680 Clearly our politics has, uh, in, in, uh, uh, more and more clear way organized along this lines.

01:50:28.020 And, and the irony is the Republican party became the party of the working class and the, uh, professionals, uh, became, uh, or the democratic party became, uh, the, the party of the professionals.

01:50:39.740 And that was a kind of flip over time.

01:50:42.420 Uh, but, uh, the reason is that, um, reasons are complicated, but, uh, the, the basic point is that when these divisions started, uh, back in the 1970s and then really, uh, evolved after that, nothing happened in this country.

01:51:06.060 Uh, and so working class voters who were voting for the Democrats in the Franklin Roosevelt era through Kennedy and Johnson felt more and more, well, this party doesn't do anything for us.

01:51:21.860 Uh, and, uh, Trump, uh, obviously, you know, with great political savvy, saw his, uh, entree, uh, into that in 2016, understood that reality, uh, and, uh, took, uh, the working class out of the democratic party basically.

01:51:39.080 Um, but the underlying economics of that is a country that, uh, just spread apart, uh, it's got many different aspects of it, but the biggest divide in our country is education, educational attainment.

01:51:54.940 Um, because, um, because basically that's the, that's the underlying organizing principle for almost the whole economy, which is university graduate and up.

01:52:06.040 You're doing well, you're doing well, your incomes are going up, you're enjoying life, high school, uh, and, uh, less you're struggling and, uh, it shows up in so many places.

01:52:18.500 It shows up in housing.

01:52:19.920 It shows up in credit card debt, but it actually shows up in life expectancy, which is unbelievable.

01:52:25.480 There's an eight year gap of life expectancy between high school grads who have a life expectancy of around 75 and college grads who have a life expectancy of around 83.

01:52:41.200 Can you imagine, uh, this is two different societies and to the point of how long you live, uh, how you live, whether you're healthy or not.

01:52:52.800 And this has been going on for decades now and completely almost on it, un-understood and un-addressed and the political system more or less incapable of solving anything, unfortunately.

01:53:09.140 It's interesting though, how little anyone cares that's, I mean, I think these are complicated problems, very complicated problems you suggested, not exactly sure how to solve it.

01:53:19.360 But I know that the first step is acknowledging it and caring about it and discussing it, discussing it.

01:53:24.640 And you've been in, at least since you were an undergraduate at Harvard in one world.

01:53:28.440 Yeah.

01:53:28.540 I have two.

01:53:29.200 Yeah.

01:53:29.820 Um, and so I can verify, I know you can as well, that there's like no conversation about this, that everyone in the world that I grew up in blames the people who were dying earlier, hates them for it, hates them for their weakness and their suffering.

01:53:42.160 That just strikes me as such an ugly, vicious impulse.

01:53:46.700 I don't understand it.

01:53:47.760 Yeah.

01:53:47.920 It's a, it's a great observation.

01:53:49.460 You know, you, you, you really can close the gates literally on gated communities, but even if the community is not gated, we're, uh, we are, uh, segregated by residential area, by cities, by where we live, by rent, by a cost of, uh, housing and so on.

01:54:06.060 And so, uh, you can go on like this without, uh, any, you know, real attention, uh, and, and certainly I, I think it's right to say that, uh, you know, the, the lucky part of our society is more or less insulated, not only by how they live and where they live.

01:54:30.640 And, you know, they get, uh, nice services from, uh, people who are working extraordinarily hard for extraordinarily low, uh, incomes, but the political system is paralyzed.

01:54:43.360 But even the social, so we grew up in a country, you're a little bit older than I am, but we grew up in roughly the same country.

01:54:48.800 There was an acknowledgement that there were people who were not as well off as you.

01:54:52.640 And that was sad.

01:54:54.180 Now among affluent people, I see only race guilt.

01:54:57.760 I see no economic guilt at all.

01:54:59.680 And I think there's, you can believe in capitalism or system or whatever system is and still feel like, gee, you know, I feel sorry for people who are deep in credit card debt.

01:55:07.580 I don't see any of that.

01:55:09.540 No, no, this, this is, uh, I think exactly right.

01:55:12.400 It's a, it's another part that isn't in our, our discussion, our discourse.

01:55:18.340 And I think it's right to say that basically, you know, uh, the political system doesn't really want to address any of this because it's complicated.

01:55:28.480 You have to pay for solutions one way or another.

01:55:31.740 No one wants to pay for anything.

01:55:33.460 We just run up debt.

01:55:35.220 Anyway, we're, I mean, we run up, uh, if it's not credit card debt, it's our national debt.

01:55:39.860 Yeah.

01:55:40.220 And, uh, anyway, as we've been talking about, uh, uh, we're much more interested in blowing up places and overthrowing other governments than we are in addressing any of these issues.

01:55:50.720 What would happen if people stopped paying their, if a lot of people stopped paying their credit card debt?

01:55:54.500 Well, uh, you, you know, uh, the, the way that our system works is, uh, that, uh, it more or less goes along on deep trends, whether technology or other trends until there's some kind of crisis.

01:56:15.840 We had a crisis in 2008 that was a very particular kind of crisis where, uh, a not very clever move by, I think, a not very clever, uh, treasury secretary, uh, at the time, uh, decided he would, uh, bankrupt, uh, uh, a company.

01:56:35.300 He didn't like, you know, it was, uh, Hank Paulson, uh, who came from Goldman Sachs, not my part of the Sachs family.

01:56:43.040 I need to explain.

01:56:44.180 So I just want to be clear, different branch, I suppose.

01:56:47.660 Uh, and he didn't like Lehman brothers.

01:56:50.080 So he decided literally one weekend rather than try to sell off Lehman brothers, he was going to close it down.

01:56:56.840 And, uh, it was a kind of lame brained operation and he created one of the greatest financial crises of modern history.

01:57:04.120 Wait, wait, wait.

01:57:04.760 Yes.

01:57:05.320 You think Paulson created the 08 meltdown because he had a grudge against Lehman?

01:57:10.280 Yeah, basically.

01:57:11.140 He wanted to teach them a lesson.

01:57:12.780 He thought they were lazy, terrible firm, which they may well have been by the way, but he decided in 2008, you had, there was a housing bubble and the housing bubble was breaking.

01:57:25.500 And, uh, uh, a lot of, uh, the investment banks were on the edge because they had invested in crappy, uh, uh, crappy, uh, mortgages and that they were trying to securitize.

01:57:38.120 So it was a fragile situation.

01:57:39.800 We would have had a normal downturn for sure.

01:57:42.720 We would have had a recession, but Paulson decided in, uh, September, 2008, that rather than do another rescue where you take a weak bank and you may add some public money and then you, you, uh, uh, sell it off to a buyer.

01:58:01.940 And there was a potential buyer for Lehman Brothers.

01:58:05.340 It was Barclays, uh, uh, British bank and the USG government could have put in a bit of money or taken some of the bad stuff off the balance sheets and given the rest to, uh, Barclays.

01:58:19.400 But, uh, Paulson, uh, wanted to do two things.

01:58:24.080 He wanted to, uh, teach Lehman Brothers a lesson.

01:58:27.320 I believe, uh, you know, you can't prove this stuff, but Lehman was kind of a, a, uh, arrival of, uh, of Goldman.

01:58:35.940 Uh, and I think there was that personal bit from what I know.

01:58:40.400 Um, but also Paulson thought, um, well, we should show the markets.

01:58:46.500 We can be tough and firm and let the markets determine the outcome.

01:58:49.800 So, uh, he said, we're not going to do any, uh, uh, uh, any, uh, um, patch up to get, uh, Lehman into somebody else's hands.

01:59:00.280 We're going to just let it close, let it go bankrupt.

01:59:03.120 And that was September 14th, 2008.

01:59:07.600 And, uh, when the markets opened the next day, he had triggered one of the greatest financial crises of history, actually.

01:59:15.740 Uh, within, uh.

01:59:17.320 Why have I never heard the story?

01:59:19.580 Uh, maybe they didn't want to advertise how unbelievably incompetent they were.

01:59:26.280 But this was complete incompetence.

01:59:28.480 And by the way, it was incompetence of the whole economic team.

01:59:32.320 It included the Fed, New York Fed, uh, Washington, uh, the Treasury.

01:59:37.180 This was a crisis that absolutely was not only human made, but you can pinpoint the hour and the day and the event.

01:59:47.920 Because the, the point I was making, because you asked me a question about.

01:59:51.380 Sorry, my jaw's open.

01:59:52.300 I mean, I'm kind of interested in the subject.

01:59:54.020 I read a book on it, I guess.

01:59:56.260 And you asked me a question about credit card debt and the point.

01:59:59.960 No, but that's just so interesting.

02:00:00.880 And I was making a digression.

02:00:01.900 Is this widely, well, I'm digressing again, but is that, is this widely known?

02:00:06.200 It's not very well understood.

02:00:09.000 Uh, it's not a secret, but I can explain why it's not understood, but, uh, in, in a moment.

02:00:16.700 But the point is a financial panic is a specific kind of event.

02:00:23.860 Uh, it is the same event as when people are trampled running out of a stadium.

02:00:30.380 Yes.

02:00:30.920 Okay.

02:00:31.240 So that happens once every, I don't know how many hundred football games, something happens.

02:00:37.080 Somebody's, there's a fight, people start running and then trampling and then lots of

02:00:41.060 people, uh, get crushed.

02:00:42.900 So that's a specific event.

02:00:44.980 It's a panic in finance.

02:00:47.480 The same thing can happen and financial panics happen, uh, on, uh, occasion throughout history

02:00:57.960 and you can identify them.

02:01:00.040 And usually there is a cause, uh, that is a trigger of it.

02:01:04.700 But with a panic, like a stampede out of a stadium, the cause is completely incommensurate

02:01:12.020 with the outcome.

02:01:13.400 In other words, the cause may be that someone, uh, someone punched someone else and that started

02:01:19.520 commotion and that started, uh, and, uh, a thousand people got trampled in the end.

02:01:25.320 So the cause was some stupid little thing, but then it led to a cascade of disaster.

02:01:31.140 That's exactly what a financial panic is or a bank run.

02:01:35.100 I don't know if anybody ever remembers my favorite movie of, uh, my youth and for my

02:01:41.600 children, uh, Mary Poppins, uh, but Mary Poppins is a children's story.

02:01:46.100 Of course, that has a bank run in it, uh, where, uh, the young boy wants to get his two

02:01:52.740 pence out of the bank and there's resistance.

02:01:55.660 And he starts screaming, you won't give me my money back.

02:01:58.160 And then everyone runs to the bank to take their money out and the bank fails.

02:02:01.680 Uh, and it's a panic.

02:02:03.800 So Hank Paulson made a panic in September, uh, 14, 2008.

02:02:12.960 And he made it deliberately.

02:02:16.360 The action was deliberate.

02:02:18.160 The outcome was not deliberate.

02:02:20.560 He had no idea what he was about to do, uh, which was to create, uh, this rush for the

02:02:26.560 exits by all banks on all loans all over the world within three days.

02:02:32.020 And that's what he created.

02:02:33.520 And it created the biggest economic downturn, uh, since the great depression itself.

02:02:40.260 Uh, and so, uh, and that's, uh, by the way, an interesting, very interesting, uh, story also,

02:02:49.000 because just like a panic can create something that's completely incommensurate with any fundamental

02:02:58.420 reason, but it leads to a total disaster.

02:03:02.820 The opposite can sometimes happen also, which I was reminded because the great depression,

02:03:09.380 which was this calamitous event in the days up to Franklin Roosevelt's inauguration,

02:03:18.120 which was March 4th, 1933, there was a bank panic in the United States.

02:03:25.640 And by the time that Roosevelt became president on March 4th, 1933, the whole U S banking system

02:03:34.620 had closed down because everyone had rushed to the banks to withdraw their money, just like in Mary

02:03:41.900 Poppins, but it was all over the U S. So the whole U S banking system was closed when Franklin

02:03:48.220 Roosevelt became president on March 4th, 1933.

02:03:52.260 And with a smile and a tilt of his head, he said, and I firmly believe that the only thing we have to

02:04:02.280 fear is fear itself.

02:04:05.000 And with those words, people stopped panicking and they went back and put their money in the bank.

02:04:13.700 And within a few days, the U S banking system reopened and it was Franklin Roosevelt's personality

02:04:22.440 and his spirit and his tilt of the head and his smile and his phrase that it's only fear that we

02:04:32.140 have to fear that undid the panic. After that, many reforms were made, uh, like the federal deposit

02:04:40.520 insurance corporation and, uh, and the sec and public reporting and many things were done,

02:04:47.000 but the banks actually opened on a matter of words. So you asked me a question, why did I make this

02:04:54.040 big digression? Because financial markets are capable of creating all sorts of disasters. And the first

02:05:01.460 rule that you learn is be careful. Don't let liquidity mess you up. Don't let panics destroy

02:05:10.500 things. Hank Paulson apparently didn't know any of that. Uh, and he walked the world into a 10 or

02:05:16.800 $20 trillion disaster loss by a deliberate action because there were better ways.

02:05:23.460 He never got, that's a remark, absolutely remarkable story. Remarkable because it happened in front of

02:05:28.420 all of us. I was paying, I don't know, 30% attention. I mean, I actually had to sell my house

02:05:33.620 that year. So, I mean, it affected me and a lot of, a lot of people, I mean less than most, but still

02:05:38.020 it affected everybody. And he was treasury secretary and a famous guy and he's still kind

02:05:42.300 of a famous guy. Yeah. Yeah. He still is. No one ever. Probably a nice guy, by the way. Yeah. Yeah.

02:05:46.360 I mean, I do doubt that, but I don't know. I don't know. I'm trying to let my bigotries affect

02:05:52.300 my view, but, uh, why does he not carry the stain of that with him? The reason is strangely enough,

02:06:00.920 people don't understand what I just described in general, though there is a group, I'm a finance

02:06:08.460 economist. So I studied this throughout history and I've studied these events and I've, I've watched

02:06:15.140 them actually close up because I've often been called into crisis situation. So I'm very, uh,

02:06:23.240 attuned to them. And another example, and then I'll give you an answer, uh, was in the

02:06:30.840 summer of 1997 when Asia experienced a full fledged financial crisis that you may remember

02:06:38.200 called, we know it as the Asian financial crisis. What happened? What happened was Thailand

02:06:46.040 devalued the Thai bot. Well, so, you know, you want to put your thumb in your mouth and

02:06:52.440 suck your thumb. What difference could that possibly make? It triggered a panic and the IMF

02:06:58.220 addressed it. The international monetary fund addressed it in completely the wrong way because

02:07:04.400 both the 2008 and the 1997 or the 1933 story that I told you about Franklin Roosevelt, if you're in

02:07:15.260 a stampede or a panic and you say, you see, you're so immoral. You created this disaster.

02:07:25.300 We are living in sin. This is why our banking system has failed. You will do nothing but crush

02:07:33.320 what you have left standing. But if you say, oh my God, uh, we just had a panic. You don't have to

02:07:41.540 panic. Fundamentals are fine. We've got this under control. The only thing we have to fear is fear

02:07:46.540 itself. Yeah. You can calm down the situation. This is not a matter of math. This is human psychology.

02:07:51.940 This is understanding what's going on and then responding to it in an appropriate way. Now it

02:07:59.360 happens and now we're getting really into the weeds of economics. My field is macroeconomics. So I look at

02:08:07.660 an economy as a whole and I study business cycles or crises or ups and downs of the economy.

02:08:16.100 So to go back to 2008, we were going to have a recession. A recession means that, uh, the people

02:08:26.580 stop buying houses, uh, and, uh, there's unemployment and the unemployment may go, you know, from 4% to

02:08:35.180 7% and, uh, economic growth, uh, may turn negative for two or three quarters. And there's a lot of pain

02:08:43.400 and people can't make ends meet and so forth, but then the economy recovers in maybe 18 months or so.

02:08:50.140 That's not what happened in 2008. What happened in 2008 was a prolonged, deep crisis, uh, with soaring

02:08:58.380 unemployment, with bankruptcies, with mega bailouts, with the whole world economy suffering. There was

02:09:04.980 no reason for that bigger outcome. The normal thing would have been a recession. Why a recession?

02:09:14.620 Because, uh, there was, uh, too much liquidity that, uh, and deregulation of the mortgage markets.

02:09:22.900 And there was a bubble and the bubble burst and housing, uh, went into recession and we had another

02:09:28.820 business cycle. Okay. That would have been the normal, but we had Hank Paulson on September 14,

02:09:35.180 2008, uh, pulling the plug on a, on an investment bank that triggered a panic among all banks. So

02:09:43.540 that by Monday morning, when the markets opened first, there were legal problems in Britain because,

02:09:50.760 uh, Lehman had a branch in Britain that, uh, under British rules, uh, created lots of problems,

02:09:57.800 but then the investment banks started to call in their loans because they said, Oh hell, all hell's

02:10:03.720 breaking loose. And the, the stampede started that led to the mega downturn. So then you ask, well,

02:10:10.620 how was this interpreted afterwards? Because that's your question. Why isn't this standard? Well,

02:10:17.560 the answer is that it was all explained as the downturn from the housing bubble, not the

02:10:27.640 panic caused by the bankruptcy of Lehman. So in other words, what would have been a normal

02:10:35.240 downturn became the narrative for what was the calamitous, uh, crisis. In other words, it was

02:10:44.680 mis-explained and that's how they like to explain it because Hank Paulson did not want to stand up

02:10:52.600 the next day and say, Oh shit, I really did that wrong. That was, that was a stupid thing to do.

02:11:00.040 I didn't understand how financial markets work, even though I had been the lead of Goldman Sachs.

02:11:06.280 I really messed these things up. Ben Bernanke at the fed did not want to say, my God, that weekend,

02:11:13.080 we really should have, uh, buffed this up to get it out to Barclays. Uh, and he said afterwards,

02:11:19.720 I couldn't have sold it anyway. I didn't have the legal authority. And then, uh, a scholar at

02:11:24.520 Johns Hopkins wrote a long book explaining very carefully. Yes, Ben, you could have done it

02:11:30.440 differently. We could have avoided this crisis. It could have been sold to Barclays. You had all

02:11:34.600 the authority in the world to do it and so on. So the narrative that I'm giving is the, the,

02:11:40.200 the explanation that I'm giving was hidden from view partly because of confusion, uh, partly because

02:11:50.360 when a crisis happens, you want to blame it on fundamental things. So it was easy to say, Oh,

02:11:57.880 that mortgage market was, you know, uh, a lot of cheating and, uh, and there was a lot of cheating

02:12:03.880 and all the securitization made messes and so forth. So you want to say, Oh, if there's a downturn

02:12:11.880 or if there's a, uh, a panic, it's because you're sinners. And so that's a normal narrative and no one

02:12:19.480 wants to take responsibility. God, I really messed up. But it's important to know why things go wrong.

02:12:25.400 So you can take steps to prevent them from going wrong again in the same way.

02:12:29.000 Well, it's also, it's a, you know, again, this is now really getting into the weeds of my profession.

02:12:34.360 Uh, but, um, as a macro economist, I'll just, if anyone's interested, but this is really getting

02:12:42.920 technical. We have a standard theory that we teach at university level about why downturns happen.

02:12:52.280 Uh, and it's a theory that's attributed to John Maynard Keynes, who was a really great,

02:12:58.520 brilliant British economist that I've learned, uh, a whole career from, uh, in, in his writings.

02:13:05.800 But John Maynard Keynes wrote famously about the great depression. And he said, the cause of the

02:13:13.080 great depression is this particular phenomenon. We called the decline of aggregate demand that

02:13:18.680 people stopped buying, uh, and that leads to a downturn. So maybe they stopped buying houses. So

02:13:24.040 that leads to a downturn. So that's called an aggregate demand shortfall. And the problem is

02:13:32.120 that all subsequent business cycles after John Maynard Keynes

02:13:38.360 then became interpreted through that lens that he had established. Cause he was such a wonderful

02:13:45.080 personality and such a fascinating writer and thinker that his interpretation of the great depression

02:13:52.440 became the standard way to interpret any event that followed afterwards. And my experience,

02:14:01.640 because I happen to have the experience of working in very acute crises, uh, like hyperinflations or debt

02:14:14.440 crises or financial panics, which became my thing for a while in my career.

02:14:23.320 I saw, oh, those are really quite different from how Keynes described the great depression.

02:14:30.280 These are, these are phenomena of their own right. They're very particular. A banking panic is not

02:14:36.600 just a decline of demand. It's a panic. We need to understand the panic. Now I'm not the first to

02:14:43.080 observe that by any means. There's a whole theory and history about this, but it's kind of, I made a

02:14:49.720 comparison 20 some years ago that cause I'm jealous of my wife. She's a medical doctor and a

02:14:57.960 extraordinarily excellent medical doctor. And she would see a patient and do a diagnosis and save the

02:15:06.520 kid because she's a pediatrician. And I thought, oh God, if only an economist could actually save

02:15:11.800 something, you know, but she did what she was trained to do called a differential diagnosis,

02:15:17.960 which means you see a fever. It's not one thing. You have to figure out what's the cause.

02:15:23.480 Right. So I came to understand, you see an economic crisis. You better understand the cause of it,

02:15:32.200 not just the standard narrative. And so for me, I'm very much attuned to what really caused that

02:15:41.240 event. Well, Hank, you caused that event in this case on September 14th, 2008. I'm sorry to say it,

02:15:48.520 don't want to make it, you know, personal, but you really made a mess at that point. This was not

02:15:55.800 just world markets having their thing. This was something that we made a mistake. You should

02:16:01.960 understand that. So given everything you know about the current U.S. economy and the current,

02:16:07.240 you know, guardians of it, stewards of it, what do you think the next crisis will look like?

02:16:13.040 First, we're in an ongoing crisis, but it's a slow moving crisis. So a crisis doesn't have to be

02:16:22.840 an immediate event. A crisis can be a set of unsolved problems that persist and are difficult.

02:16:32.080 And that I think has been true for a long time. Our economy does not work for half our country.

02:16:39.720 Yes. That to my mind's a crisis. I agree. And it's not news. It's not something that started

02:16:46.360 this year or under the Biden administration or under any recent administration. It's been decades.

02:16:53.240 Why did it happen? It happened because I think actually this is another long digression, but

02:16:59.720 technology changed and jobs that people used to do, good working class, high school, grad jobs,

02:17:08.120 no longer existed. The assembly line ended except for robots. And I've toured robotic factories for,

02:17:17.080 you know, 30 years. This isn't something new already 30 years ago. Uh, I, I went to a Toyota plant

02:17:24.040 probably. Yeah, probably 30 years ago. There were no people in the whole building. It was a Japanese

02:17:31.080 plant probably in the 1990s, you know, because it was all incredibly sophisticated robots. What I found

02:17:39.000 fascinating about it, by the way, was that every car that was coming off the line was custom, uh,

02:17:46.280 you know, uh, spec, uh, specification. So a truck followed by a sedan followed by, uh, you know,

02:17:53.880 two seater and so on. The robots were just programmed. They could put together any different

02:17:59.080 thing and the right parts would come in and, and it, it wasn't, uh, you know, super standardized.

02:18:05.160 It was a very sophisticated plant, but it meant that the auto workers didn't have jobs. So those jobs

02:18:12.040 had already gone away, uh, jobs in agriculture went away 75 years ago. You know, we have 1% of our

02:18:19.320 workforce provides the food for the whole country and for a lot of the world. 1% because agriculture

02:18:27.000 became so mechanized, so proficient and so on. And, uh, when I spoke to a farmer a few years ago,

02:18:34.120 he said, yeah, I still like to ride the tractor. I, of course I read a book when I do, uh, cause the

02:18:40.440 tractor drives itself. It puts the fertilizer on the field exactly in the right places. Everything is, uh,

02:18:46.520 geographically specified and so on. But the point is the, the fundamental technology of our world

02:18:54.600 changed already 50 years ago, not just with the chat GPT. This is a long ongoing story. And it meant

02:19:02.840 actually high school wasn't going to cut it for demand for workers because I, what was more than 20% of

02:19:13.080 the workforce, which was manufacturing back in, uh, 1980 or so is now less than 10% of the workforce.

02:19:22.360 And that's not, by the way, because of China or because of Mexico, that's because of robots.

02:19:27.880 That's because of automation. That's because of digital technologies. That's because of a

02:19:32.040 sophisticated economy. So this trend has been deep. It's been widening for decades. Uh, it has led to

02:19:41.640 two societies. Uh, the professionals are mainly in cities and, uh, they're mainly in the democratic

02:19:51.320 party and they're mainly doing rather well. Thank you. Uh, and, uh, the people, uh, that are in working

02:19:59.000 class, well, they're in rural areas, uh, or, uh, semi-rural areas or, uh, uh, suburban areas in many

02:20:06.360 places and, and, uh, uh, uh, not doing very well. And that's been going on for a long time.

02:20:12.600 And, uh, I call that a crisis. Uh, it's a crisis of our country. What do we do in response? Well,

02:20:20.280 we go to war, we overthrow governments, we do all sorts of things. We call ourselves the greatest

02:20:25.480 country in the world and we let our infrastructure go to hell. Uh, and, uh, we didn't address these

02:20:31.320 issues and we didn't face up to the question of, you know, how to share better, how to address these,

02:20:38.280 uh, challenges, uh, in a more effective way, or what are we going to do about it? What are the

02:20:43.160 underlying trends? And now we're going to face a new wave, uh, with the, uh, our, uh, even more

02:20:52.920 remarkable, uh, artificial intelligence, uh, which is actually going to wipe out lots, lots,

02:21:01.000 lots more jobs. Uh, and that's going to be a very, very big deal. And this time,

02:21:05.960 a lot of professional jobs, by the way, because, you know, frankly, uh, uh, if I need to find sources

02:21:12.920 or to, uh, look at the, at, at, uh, you know, what's been written about a topic, uh, what used to

02:21:19.560 take me and I was hired to do it days or weeks to, uh, you know, go through journals and literature

02:21:26.840 and books I can do in one minute now, uh, on, uh, uh, you know, just asking a question to, uh,

02:21:33.800 to my favorite, uh, chat program. Uh, and so this is going to cause even more disruptions.

02:21:41.880 It also means interestingly, of course, that a few people who own these platforms and systems, uh,

02:21:49.800 are, you know, getting a wealth that is simply beyond any imagining and any prior experience in

02:22:00.680 the history of the world. Uh, I looked up, uh, as, as I was arriving, uh, today's net worth

02:22:08.760 of the top, uh, 10, uh, net worth people of the United States. Uh, so with Elon number one, uh,

02:22:16.840 you know, what, uh, or not of the United States of the world. Cause I think, uh, one, uh, is foreign,

02:22:22.040 I think, uh, maybe of, of the top 10, you know, what, uh, the, the 10 richest people, 10 people,

02:22:29.560 just 10, what their net worth is today, $1.7 trillion, 10 people. This is a funny world. Uh,

02:22:39.800 you've got, uh, tens of millions of people who can't pay the bills, can't fill a dental, uh,

02:22:45.160 appointment, can't fill a drug prescription. You have 10 people, many of them really creative,

02:22:51.640 by the way. But even if you're really creative, uh, Elon, I think today, uh, and I, I love Elon

02:22:59.640 for lots of things, uh, and, uh, know him and admire his genius. Uh, but he's got 200 billion

02:23:07.880 something bucks. That's interesting. You know, this is the economy is changing in fundamental

02:23:14.440 ways. Uh, and it's bifurcating may not even be the right word. In other words, dividing in two,

02:23:22.220 it may be dividing in even more fractured ways. And we need to figure out what we're going to do about

02:23:30.500 that as a society. Uh, and we're not figuring that out. And also because of the way our political

02:23:39.220 system works, uh, we don't want to do anything that would cost anything because government doesn't

02:23:46.120 accept war. Uh, government doesn't want to raise any revenues, uh, even on people who

02:23:52.980 couldn't use their wealth in a million lifetimes. Uh, so we're a little bit stuck. And all of this,

02:24:04.680 the reason I mentioned all of this is that normal economics, the way we discuss this issue is as bad

02:24:12.740 as the way we discuss the wars and everything else. It's at an extremely superficial level

02:24:22.540 that is all about, will growth be 3.1% next quarter or 2.9% or is the economy in a slow patch or

02:24:35.660 will it pick up where the deepest changes of our lives are underway, uh, where technology is

02:24:45.200 transforming everybody's jobs, everybody's lives, where, uh, if you don't have the right kind of job,

02:24:54.180 you're living eight or 10 years less than your neighbor that has the right kind of job, that

02:25:00.080 that's the kind of society we have right now. And those are issues that are really important,

02:25:07.840 but where do you discuss them? Uh, you're not going to hear about that on the campaign.

02:25:14.060 You're not going to hear about that in, uh, almost all of the financial journalism because

02:25:20.620 financial journalism is mainly about what will the markets do? Will the Fed raise interest rates,

02:25:25.800 lower interest rates? Those are not completely uninteresting, but I find them completely boring.

02:25:32.900 So even though that was what I went into to, to begin with, but I thought of how much fun it would

02:25:39.120 be to turn dials and make economies go up and down, but it turns out to be the least interesting

02:25:44.740 part of the whole story. Jeffrey Sachs, I, I do think at some point you should sit down and figure

02:25:52.280 out 10 stories over the past 30 years that have been mistold or misunderstood in the, in the, in the

02:26:00.200 public's view of them and just do four hours each as university lecture and put them online and just

02:26:06.740 make higher education. As usual, Tucker, great idea. Thank you. Jeff Sachs. I appreciate it.

02:26:14.180 Thanks for listening to Tucker Carlson show. If you enjoyed it, you can go to

02:26:17.480 tuckercarlson.com to see everything that we have made the complete library, tuckercarlson.com.

The Tucker Carlson Show - August 30, 2024

Jeffrey Sachs： Trump’s Plan to Stop WWIII, CIA Coups, and Warning of the Next Financial Crisis

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