The Tucker Carlson Show - March 05, 2025


Jonathan Roumie： The Weight of Playing Jesus in The Chosen, & How to Raise Your Spiritual Awareness


Episode Stats

Length

1 hour and 31 minutes

Words per Minute

151.30911

Word Count

13,812

Sentence Count

1,053

Misogynist Sentences

5

Hate Speech Sentences

17


Summary

In this episode of the podcast, I sit down with an actor who played Jesus in his church s Good Friday service for years and finally got the role of Jesus in the movie The Crucifixion. He talks about how he went from being one of the mockers, revilers, to a sudden conversion on the cross.


Transcript

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00:00:17.940 You're an actor, you're looking for work, your agent or somebody calls you and says, we'd like you to play Jesus.
00:00:25.540 What's that like?
00:00:27.580 It was an answered prayer.
00:00:30.000 The person who made that call was a friend and a colleague by that point, a guy by the name of Dallas Jenkins, who created The Chosen.
00:00:59.400 And I had played Jesus for him for his church's Good Friday service in these little vignettes three times over the course of four years between 2014 and 2017.
00:01:17.880 Just literally in a church.
00:01:19.220 In a church.
00:01:19.740 So we'd go and shoot out on a farm, these vignettes, whatever built sets into this in his church has like a little studio.
00:01:27.440 And so we would, but mostly on location, we would film these little films that would be in the spirit of Good Friday or illustrate a particular gospel passage or scripture scene.
00:01:39.840 And that was in line with the theme of the service for that year.
00:01:47.860 And yeah, so the first time I played Jesus in one of those short films was The Crucifixion.
00:01:55.160 It was, I was in it for five minutes.
00:01:57.080 The film itself, it's called The Two Thieves.
00:02:01.640 You can actually find it, I think, on Amazon still.
00:02:04.580 And it was about, it was a, it was a what if story about the two thieves crucified on either side of Christ.
00:02:12.500 Like, who were they?
00:02:14.120 How did they get there?
00:02:14.960 How do you go in like one of the gospels in, in one paragraph from, you know, he was being mocked and reviled even by the thieves next to him to all of a sudden the penitent thief, as he's referred to, gives his life basically to Jesus in that moment.
00:02:32.100 He said, Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom.
00:02:34.180 And Jesus says, truly today you will be with me in paradise.
00:02:37.560 And he basically, it's like the first confession on the cross and, and he grants him access to the kingdom.
00:02:45.420 And so how does that, how do you go from being one of the mockers, revilers to this sudden conversion on the cross?
00:02:56.120 And so he tries to, Dallas tries to answer that question in the course of this 25 minute film.
00:03:02.120 I actually read for the penitent thief because he's got this, this fantastic narrative arc.
00:03:10.580 And then, and I thought I'd had a great audition.
00:03:13.640 It was in, it was in LA at the time.
00:03:16.500 And I knew it was an opportunity to like, you know, get paid a nominal stipend for some work in another city, in this, in this case, suburban Chicago.
00:03:26.560 And I thought, man, I would audition for the short film.
00:03:29.840 I don't care if it's for a church.
00:03:31.000 It's all, it's, it's a great story.
00:03:32.580 It's script is great.
00:03:34.160 So I, so I go and I audition, I had a great audition.
00:03:37.540 I'm like, I think I nailed it.
00:03:39.920 A couple of days later, I get a call back to come back in, but this time to read for Jesus.
00:03:47.660 And I thought to myself, ah, man, I didn't get the first role.
00:03:51.460 And then I looked again at the script.
00:03:53.020 I'm like, hey, so Jesus got like five lines in the whole thing.
00:03:55.380 But I had happened to have played Jesus six months prior for another completely independent project up in Washington State at a studio for this Catholic company called St. Luke Productions.
00:04:07.480 About this saint in the early 20th century named St. Faustina, who was considered a mystic.
00:04:14.800 She had these visions.
00:04:15.640 She wrote an entire diary that was sort of dictated to her by, by Christ himself in these visions.
00:04:21.500 And so I played Jesus in the vision aspect of that story for this traveling one woman show, where it was an actress playing the saint, a screen behind her, a couple of rudimentary set pieces.
00:04:36.880 And then all of the other characters in the show, in the play, including these visions of Jesus, was projected on a screen that she would choreographically time out her scenes with for 90 minutes.
00:04:49.300 So fast forward six months later, I get to audition for the two thieves.
00:04:56.460 I didn't get the penitent thief.
00:04:58.480 I go and I audition for Jesus because I'm like, you know what?
00:05:01.220 I enjoyed playing Jesus six months ago.
00:05:03.660 Like, this would be cool if I got, if I got anything, it'd be cool because I wasn't working steadily or consistently.
00:05:10.920 And the way Dallas tells the story about 10 seconds into the audition, he's like, that's Jesus.
00:05:15.980 That's my Jesus for this show.
00:05:18.080 And so we did that film and it was screened.
00:05:21.700 He brought me back to view it like a month later at the Good Friday service with his church, about seven services.
00:05:29.500 It was like 15,000 people saw this thing in a matter of a day and a half.
00:05:34.240 And it was remarkably well received.
00:05:37.480 It was so beautiful and it was essentially the foundational bones of the concept of the chosen, which is this sort of Ignatian spirituality, this Ignatian insight into the Gospels, which is basically you put yourself in the Gospels.
00:05:56.800 You ask yourself a series of questions and that's how you meditate on the Gospels through this form of spirituality.
00:06:04.140 And so this process of filmmaking was kind of like a living example of that on celluloid or digital celluloid.
00:06:12.760 And so we did it again the following year for a different kind of scene.
00:06:18.640 And then we skipped a year and then 2017, spring of 2017, I did one more film with him for his church.
00:06:25.260 And then it was in probably the summer of 2018 where he called me and said, hey, want to put the sails back on?
00:06:34.220 I think we're going to do this four episodes of a crowdfunded TV show, probably not going to go anywhere, but it'd be some consistent work.
00:06:44.200 And I jumped at the chance.
00:06:46.340 I thought, okay, I had now played Jesus for him a few times.
00:06:50.880 I was getting really comfortable with the role.
00:06:52.320 I was also pulled in during that time between like 2016 and 2019.
00:06:58.180 I started doing these passion plays, being involved in these passion plays that a friend of mine was directing.
00:07:06.180 And then I helped co-direct and then I co-wrote a version of the passion that we would put on for our church.
00:07:12.680 And so for whatever reason, like God was putting me in these situations, in these stories about Jesus so often in such a short, I mean, a relatively short period of time.
00:07:29.260 In a few years, I'd played Jesus like five, six, seven times.
00:07:33.060 And I started to think like, well, there must be something to this.
00:07:37.000 Like, I don't know what it is yet.
00:07:40.720 And then when I got the call for the chosen, the penny dropped.
00:07:46.320 And it was like, oh, all of that was preparation for this.
00:07:53.200 And it became much more than anyone thought it would be.
00:08:00.160 I would say so.
00:08:01.460 Yes.
00:08:02.260 The four episodes that probably wouldn't go anywhere became eight episodes of a first season of the show that was crowdfunded by selling shares to fund the show.
00:08:14.340 And then released in the fall of 2019, re-released for free because we were charging, I think, 15 bucks for the season, the entire eight episodes on DVD and streaming.
00:08:30.440 And then when the pandemic hit, the folks at the Chosen said, we want to do something to kind of ease people's burdens and give the show away for free.
00:08:42.500 And it exploded after that, like beyond anyone's imagination.
00:08:48.600 And since then, it's always been free on the app, the Chosen app.
00:08:55.340 So, and then now we just did a deal with Amazon.
00:08:58.560 Amazon is going to be our exclusive window for the streaming of the show after its initial theatrical run, which for season five will be March 28th.
00:09:09.580 It'll be in theaters for about a month.
00:09:11.020 Then it'll go to Amazon for 90 days exclusively.
00:09:14.480 And then it'll go to the app where it will remain free.
00:09:18.940 I mean, it's turned into the biggest, you know, thing in that genre maybe ever.
00:09:23.660 Yeah.
00:09:24.320 Yeah.
00:09:24.640 They don't often, nobody really releases figures in streaming for viewership and any of that kind of data.
00:09:32.440 But we do because we're like, well, we don't care.
00:09:35.060 We want to tell people like it's been estimated right now that about 280 million people have seen the show globally.
00:09:44.220 340 million in the United States total.
00:09:48.880 Yeah.
00:09:49.000 So that's pretty deep penetration as we say in TV.
00:09:52.100 I would say so.
00:09:53.000 That's amazing.
00:09:53.740 Yeah.
00:09:53.860 So the reason I asked the question, and you didn't flinch, was that I think some people would feel like that's a pretty heavy role in Jesus.
00:10:02.200 Yeah.
00:10:02.780 Basis of the world's largest religion.
00:10:04.840 Yeah.
00:10:05.600 God himself, according to Christians.
00:10:07.280 Did you ever feel that on you?
00:10:09.860 Like, that's a lot.
00:10:11.560 In the first season I did, there was this moment, especially, which I've kind of talked about at times where, and it's still, I think it's still sort of affects me.
00:10:25.520 I actually like telling the story because it's a reminder for me to remember what it's all about and who I'm serving as I endeavor to portray this role.
00:10:39.280 And so we were about midway through the first season, and the time came for me as Jesus to start preaching, you know, full-on sermons.
00:10:50.720 And we started filming, and then as I was going through these words, I suddenly, it's like I kind of felt I was outside of myself, listening to myself preach to a crowd outside the doors of, in our story, Zebedee, James and John's father, Zebedee's house.
00:11:10.440 And there was a crowd of people that was growing, a crowd of onlookers, you know, and our wonderful background actors that participate in the show, and many of whom have participated for years.
00:11:23.640 There, this crowd starts growing outside the house as Jesus begins preaching, and the scene's not specifically about Jesus, it's about other stuff that's happening in the background that becomes the foreground of the story.
00:11:37.580 And in the background, Jesus is preaching, but I still have to preach.
00:11:40.620 I still have to say these lines from scripture convincingly and try to mesmerize and galvanize the people that are listening to me and get their attention.
00:11:48.640 And they seemed really attentive, so much so that it made me really self-aware.
00:11:55.940 Yeah.
00:11:56.640 And I thought, what am I saying?
00:11:59.460 What are these words like?
00:12:01.020 These are holy, holy words set by the holiest being that ever walked the face of the earth.
00:12:07.960 I shouldn't be doing this.
00:12:09.220 This feels wrong.
00:12:10.440 And so, I would have those feelings, and then, you know, we would stop and then move on to the next setup and put the camera in a different place.
00:12:17.960 And then, as it went on, I just had to stop the production for a moment to talk to the director, to Dallas Jenkins.
00:12:27.080 And I said, can we just slow down a second?
00:12:30.600 And he said, what's going on?
00:12:32.520 And so, I took him aside.
00:12:34.420 I said, listen, man, I'm having a hard time right now.
00:12:38.220 So, like, I was starting to feel panicked and overwhelmed, almost like I've only had one panic attack in my life.
00:12:46.560 And it started to feel like it was creeping into that, and I didn't know what, why, or how.
00:12:51.340 Well, I kind of knew, I thought I knew why and what was going on.
00:12:55.740 But I just said, can we slow it down?
00:12:58.240 And he said, what's going on?
00:12:59.360 And I said, I'm saying these words, and it's, and hearing them, hearing myself say them, I don't feel worthy to be saying them.
00:13:09.000 And this is why I tell this story, because it drives home the point of the gift that I've been given in playing this role.
00:13:25.820 And he puts his hand on my shoulder, and he says, brother, none of us are truly worthy, but here we are.
00:13:38.940 I mean, it's you and me, here we are.
00:13:41.220 We're doing this so that the world may know his story.
00:13:45.640 Those who haven't heard his story may know the impact that he's had on the world and on our lives personally.
00:13:55.400 And I'm slightly paraphrasing because it's been many years since, since we shot that, but that, that was the essence.
00:14:02.880 And it settled my spirit and, and I thought, you know, he's right.
00:14:08.160 He's right.
00:14:08.660 And for whatever reason, God saw fit to put, for whatever reason, God saw fit to put me in that role and not somebody else.
00:14:22.720 Nobody else auditioned.
00:14:24.200 There wasn't, there weren't auditions for the role.
00:14:26.980 He had just called me up and said, do you want to do this again?
00:14:30.520 And I said, yes, of course.
00:14:32.280 I didn't hesitate.
00:14:33.140 And, but then when we got to that moment, it started to dawn on me, the weight of what it was that I was being given to do.
00:14:45.020 And would then inform the encounters and the experiences that I would have as the show progressed.
00:14:52.780 And as we now arrive here at season five, the dawn of season five.
00:14:59.120 When you started the series, did you believe, did you believe it?
00:15:02.100 Did you believe in the gospel?
00:15:05.160 Oh, yeah.
00:15:08.000 I was raised Christian.
00:15:09.480 I was baptized Greek Orthodox.
00:15:12.920 We lived in New York City.
00:15:14.920 And then when my family moved into the suburbs, there weren't really Greek Orthodox options.
00:15:21.440 So my dad, having gone to Catholic school in Egypt, and my mom being Catholic from Ireland and raised in the faith as well,
00:15:33.100 were more than happy to just go down the street to the local Catholic church.
00:15:39.720 It was familiar to my dad and part of my mom's upbringing.
00:15:44.880 And for myself and my sisters, it just, it didn't feel different.
00:15:51.400 It just felt right.
00:15:53.920 And so I'm in my first communion and my confirmation as a Catholic.
00:15:57.220 And probably when I got into my early 20s, I was revisiting the idea of my Orthodox roots as cousins and family members were getting married in the Orthodox church.
00:16:09.200 And I so admired the beauty and the sanctity with which they approach the liturgy, which is quite different than Catholicism for the most part.
00:16:21.000 I mean, there's Eastern Catholic rites, which are more similar to Greek Orthodox.
00:16:24.040 But it was different, but it didn't draw me to go back completely.
00:16:34.040 Because I think I just felt like, no, this feels like the truth as I understand it in God's eyes.
00:16:43.360 This seems true.
00:16:45.280 And it's the church that Christ himself ultimately started.
00:16:52.860 And for the reasons God knows, and despite every effort to thwart it, especially the largest empire in the world at the time,
00:17:07.180 despite the Roman Empire's attempts to stamp it out.
00:17:11.480 Through murder.
00:17:12.820 Yeah.
00:17:13.460 It didn't happen.
00:17:14.180 It's still going.
00:17:15.540 And that means something to me.
00:17:20.080 And so doing this show, playing the character of Jesus, working with the Hallow app, doing all these prayer and meditation challenges with them,
00:17:32.040 learning more about other stories of faith, other people of faith, through the challenges that we have coming up for Lent here.
00:17:40.960 I've grown deeper in my faith.
00:17:42.960 It's drawn me closer to the church to want to know more about the aspects of the church that I didn't necessarily grow up learning.
00:17:52.720 And, you know, I went to public school.
00:17:55.480 So I had the Tuesday afternoon catechism or whatever the day was where you went to catechism.
00:18:02.160 CCD.
00:18:02.780 CCD after school.
00:18:03.820 And, you know, I didn't learn any of the things that I've learned in the last several years because it's just not designed that way.
00:18:13.000 And the church has such a rich history and tradition.
00:18:17.080 It's so vast.
00:18:18.340 It's such a storehouse.
00:18:20.760 There's so much to know and to learn.
00:18:23.180 And through the experiences of playing Christ and getting to force myself to go into prayer and meditation prior to every season through these periodical prayer challenges,
00:18:44.860 like we just did one in Advent for Halloween, and now we're doing the Pray 40, which starts today, Ash Wednesday.
00:18:52.020 It's forced me to just spend more time in the presence of God, and it wants me to get closer to Him.
00:19:01.180 What is Lent?
00:19:03.220 Lent is...
00:19:04.640 Begins today.
00:19:05.420 Begins today is 40 days of prayer, fasting, and almsgiving leading up to Good Friday, the Friday before Easter,
00:19:15.980 the day Jesus Christ died on the cross and gave His life for humanity.
00:19:20.780 Two days later, three days later, we say, if you include Friday, Easter Sunday, Jesus resurrects from the dead,
00:19:28.580 and original sin on, you know, the stain on mankind is lifted through our belief in Christ.
00:19:39.360 And so Lent, you know, for me, Lent is a time to, I think, simplify, and it's a time to sacrifice,
00:19:50.140 and it's a time to draw myself closer through, you know, the way of the cross.
00:19:57.800 Basically, the theme of Hal's Pray 40 Challenge this year is called the way, and it's the way of surrender, you know,
00:20:05.220 the way of Christ, basically, and everything that He did leading up to His passion, death, and resurrection
00:20:15.240 is something for us to meditate on in that 40 days.
00:20:18.100 Typically, we try to make some sort of meaningful sacrifice.
00:20:26.660 Some people say, oh, it's a time to give up chocolate.
00:20:28.800 Well, if chocolate is something that gives you joy and happiness,
00:20:35.320 then, yeah, that might be a good thing for you to give up for 40 days.
00:20:40.520 And it can be really hard.
00:20:42.280 For some people, like me, be coffee.
00:20:44.820 For some people, it's alcohol.
00:20:46.200 For some people, it's cigars or cigarettes or something.
00:20:49.520 They do asparagus every year.
00:20:52.160 It's not the toughest Lent program, is it?
00:20:53.960 Does asparagus give you joy?
00:20:55.820 Because if it doesn't...
00:20:57.260 Just kidding.
00:20:57.940 Tucker, I would think you may want to revisit that.
00:21:01.860 Lent is here, the period before Easter, the 40 days, and it's a unique chance to get closer to God.
00:21:07.640 That's the point of it.
00:21:09.020 Halo, the world's number one prayer app, can help you do that.
00:21:12.280 Joining their prayer 40 Challenge.
00:21:14.600 It's a great way to connect with Christians all over the world and unite in preparation for Easter,
00:21:18.620 which is the payoff of this season.
00:21:20.640 It's called The Way.
00:21:21.580 It helps participants focus on how Jesus is the way to heaven.
00:21:24.940 If you join the challenge, you'll embark on a spiritual journey with some of America's most convicted Jesus followers.
00:21:32.160 Powerful stories, prayer, you grow in your ability to sacrifice.
00:21:35.080 That's what Lent is.
00:21:35.800 It's a sacrifice.
00:21:36.960 And taking thought-provoking sermons and true stories of faith in action, which are amazing.
00:21:41.780 This year is going to be the best Lent ever.
00:21:45.200 Thousands of people praying together all over the world, and you can be part of it through Halo,
00:21:49.120 which, by the way, is in use in my house and a nightly topic of conversation.
00:21:53.640 So you can sign up at halo.com slash Tucker when you join.
00:21:56.300 Check out thousands of guided prayers, meditations, music, and everything.
00:22:00.980 There is a ton on Halo, all designed to help you find peace and closeness to God.
00:22:06.640 Download the Halo app and jump onto the Lent Pray 40 Challenge right now.
00:22:11.620 Don Jr. here, guys.
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00:23:39.720 So, how do you observe it?
00:23:44.700 Well, I start typically by going to Mass, getting Ashes, which I have not yet done,
00:23:51.520 and then fasting on, well, especially Ash Wednesday.
00:23:57.160 But typically, and it's not an obligation, but I like to fast on Wednesdays and Fridays.
00:24:04.660 Sometimes, it's nothing but maybe water.
00:24:09.020 Sometimes, it's just no meat.
00:24:12.040 Fridays in Lent, especially, no meat.
00:24:17.180 Fish, soups, broths are even okay.
00:24:21.100 It's like fasting from the flesh.
00:24:22.940 You're denying the flesh.
00:24:23.980 You're denying yourself.
00:24:25.100 It's about denial, you know.
00:24:27.040 And it recalls Christ's 40 days in the desert prior to the start of his ministry when he denied himself everything.
00:24:36.560 Food, water, the temptations that he was faced with in the desert.
00:24:42.800 He held steadfast and came out ready to basically start his ministry.
00:24:51.160 And there's the practice of fasting is, spiritually speaking, is super powerful.
00:24:58.480 I mean, if there's obstacles or challenges that you're experiencing in your life that just don't seem to be resolved through traditional prayer.
00:25:09.860 You know, Jesus himself was confronted by the disciples at one point.
00:25:15.640 I think they were trying to cast out these demons in their community, and it wasn't working.
00:25:24.260 And they had been given the power to do that.
00:25:26.320 And he comes up on them, and they basically said, we tried everything.
00:25:33.360 We tried, you know, cast them out in your name.
00:25:35.340 It didn't work.
00:25:36.540 Why didn't it work?
00:25:37.160 And he said, paraphrasing, some demons can only be cast out through prayer and fasting.
00:25:44.360 And so that's, that there's an extra, it's like an extra superpower level that you get given when you commit to denying yourself the things that the body needs with the intention that you are offering something up to God.
00:25:58.880 Have you experienced that?
00:26:00.280 Yeah.
00:26:01.120 Yeah.
00:26:01.400 I, I've, I've, there have been decisions that, in my life that I'd really been, or not even, people.
00:26:12.760 I'll go, I'll go even more personal.
00:26:14.260 People that I prayed for that were, were sick, were in like a comatose state.
00:26:24.340 And, and through prayer and fasting, remarkably on a particular day that I did this, came out of it.
00:26:39.480 And they, for like weeks, just unresponsive.
00:26:42.360 Really?
00:26:42.920 Yeah.
00:26:43.880 Yeah.
00:26:44.320 It's, it's a game changer.
00:26:46.640 Fasting.
00:26:47.060 Yeah.
00:26:47.640 In fact, in fact, so to tie it to, to, to part of the reason why I'm here today, it's on Fridays in this prayer challenge on Hallow, Mark Wahlberg and Chris Pratt handled the fasting portion of the challenge.
00:27:04.820 So you, you go through this challenge seven days a week and on Fridays, which is the day we typically fast from meat, they get into the spirituality and the psychology of fasting, but the, the, the, the, the potent spirituality of denial and what that means.
00:27:21.180 And, um, it's super powerful, man.
00:27:24.180 It, it, it affects change like few things do.
00:27:29.580 Really?
00:27:30.340 Yeah.
00:27:31.680 Yeah.
00:27:32.160 And, and that's like a true fast, not eat.
00:27:36.800 Yeah.
00:27:38.280 Yeah.
00:27:38.860 I mean, it's something that I would pray about.
00:27:44.500 Like if, if for some people having just bread and water is extremely difficult or even just like a bowl of soup or water or like, you know, there's the, the church, Catholic church has, uh,
00:28:02.160 sort of, uh, uh, as, uh, suggested guides.
00:28:06.380 So it's essentially one meal and like partial meals, not, not a full second meal, I believe is one meal a day.
00:28:14.800 But if that's, if that's too easy for you and you're like, well, that's not, I, I, I, I don't feel like I'm sacrificing anything by just one meal.
00:28:26.360 Like I want to go no food at all.
00:28:28.180 And maybe just some water or a couple of pieces of bread, you know, bread and water.
00:28:33.220 Um, then that becomes your fasting.
00:28:36.060 So I think it, it depends, but it's always something that I, I take to in prayer first, Lord, what do you, how, how do you want me to approach this fast?
00:28:45.340 How can I deny myself?
00:28:47.620 What, what do you need from me in this fast?
00:28:53.940 And how can I serve you better through this fast?
00:28:59.140 It's funny.
00:28:59.960 Fasting is the one piece of religious observance that is pretty much disappeared in public conversations about religious observance.
00:29:10.180 I mean, fasting sounds like a medieval practice.
00:29:12.060 Well, especially here in the West, you go to the Middle East, it's like, what are you talking about?
00:29:17.500 Of course I'm fasting.
00:29:19.020 There's a full month.
00:29:19.960 Yeah.
00:29:20.360 We're at it right now.
00:29:21.760 Yeah.
00:29:22.160 No food or water or tobacco or sex during the day, period.
00:29:26.240 Wow.
00:29:26.840 Yeah.
00:29:27.660 No water.
00:29:29.740 But there, you know, it's considered like a celebration.
00:29:32.780 Yeah.
00:29:33.080 As you know, but, uh, well, I also find like even the, the, um, Middle Eastern Christians, like the Orthodox, Coptic,
00:29:42.060 Orthodox, they, um, they're much more culturally rigorous when it comes to fasting.
00:29:51.460 Not just meat, but no dairy.
00:29:54.420 And same thing with, with Muslims, no, no dairy, no, uh, they believe no, no meat, no dairy, uh, no oils.
00:30:01.560 I like, there's a, there's a number of different levels, but the same thing with, with the Christians and my family.
00:30:08.120 Like, wow, we don't, we don't do, the Catholics don't do the, the no dairy thing, but, uh, yeah, you're right.
00:30:14.920 I mean, here in, in the West, it's, it does make you wonder if.
00:30:19.180 You say you're fasting, people say, why?
00:30:21.940 Then you got to explain, you know, it's foreign.
00:30:25.020 I mean, it's all, it's all over, um, the New Testament references to fasting.
00:30:29.480 Yeah.
00:30:29.940 And, um, and as you just said, it's, it's not simply Christianity.
00:30:33.140 It's like, it was just a feature of religious observance, like from the beginning of time.
00:30:37.180 Yeah.
00:30:37.500 And it's gone.
00:30:38.200 And you, in the mainstream, it's gone.
00:30:40.540 So you wonder, like, is there a connection between, like, eating and spiritual awareness?
00:30:46.240 Clearly there is.
00:30:47.360 Is there a connection between overeating and spiritual dullness?
00:30:50.760 Hmm.
00:30:51.680 Maybe there is.
00:30:52.340 And if you wake up and everyone's fat, which is true, including me from time to time, so
00:30:57.400 I'm not judging, um, there's just, there's like a spiritual component there.
00:31:04.120 Yeah.
00:31:04.620 Or am I like, well, I mean.
00:31:05.960 It's a crazy suggestion.
00:31:07.740 One of the seven deadly sins is gluttony.
00:31:09.860 Yeah.
00:31:11.180 It doesn't have to be food, but it can be.
00:31:13.580 Like, how are you being gluttonous in your life?
00:31:16.580 Is it, or are you hoarding things?
00:31:19.000 Is it food, like, is it just not putting any kind of boundaries on your satiety?
00:31:26.580 Like, just like, you know what?
00:31:29.500 And, and, and I think it's, it's something that can, can fuel other sort of, um, leeches
00:31:40.100 into, to breaking that spiritual connection to the divine.
00:31:45.100 I mean, there's no doubt.
00:31:46.480 One of the most striking things about having grown up and living in the modern West is
00:31:51.360 realizing things later in life that are like glaringly obvious.
00:31:54.740 And you think to yourself, like, how did I not notice that?
00:31:57.140 Yeah.
00:31:57.660 Of course, gluttony's bad.
00:31:59.500 Right?
00:31:59.620 Greed is bad.
00:32:00.520 Worshiping money is bad.
00:32:01.480 These are all, violence is bad.
00:32:02.760 These are all the things that I've realized in the last couple of years that never occurred
00:32:06.140 to me.
00:32:06.580 Not one time.
00:32:07.140 Well, then you see movies.
00:32:08.240 I mean, here's the power of entertainment.
00:32:10.080 You see a movie like Wall Street.
00:32:12.200 You got Michael Douglas, who was a superstar at that time, the height of his career.
00:32:15.540 Greed is good.
00:32:16.580 I mean, isn't that the phrase from that movie?
00:32:18.100 Yeah.
00:32:18.340 But the funny thing is like, I'm old enough to remember when that came out, which I think
00:32:21.000 was in the late 80s.
00:32:21.800 80s.
00:32:22.100 Yeah.
00:32:22.320 And it was used, it became political immediately.
00:32:24.540 And it was like, this is what the Reagan era is like.
00:32:26.840 And they're all greedy and whatever.
00:32:28.100 And so, of course, you know, I was not a liberal, so I was like, oh, shut up.
00:32:34.080 But I do think that was, it's been almost 40 years, that was the last time I remember
00:32:39.020 anybody in the United States saying greed was bad.
00:32:41.640 That was the last time.
00:32:42.640 Have you ever heard anybody say that?
00:32:44.800 Maybe some like far out wacko protester or something, but no one you'd ever meet.
00:32:50.740 Yeah.
00:32:50.940 I really have ever heard anybody say greed is bad since then.
00:32:53.740 Have you?
00:32:54.620 No, no, it's, I mean, it's, yeah, but it's everywhere too.
00:33:00.960 Yeah.
00:33:01.220 It's everywhere, which is maybe why you don't hear.
00:33:03.200 Yeah, eating every day until you get fat.
00:33:04.420 Also bad.
00:33:05.100 Again, not judging.
00:33:06.300 I've been greedy and I've been a glutton.
00:33:08.240 So like, I'm not, again, not judging, but it's bad.
00:33:12.380 Like, why not say, I don't know.
00:33:14.140 Sorry, I'm just coming to these very obvious conclusions.
00:33:17.800 Well, I mean, I think luckily we have, I mean, that's what repentance is for, you know,
00:33:23.120 in the Christian life.
00:33:24.540 It's, it's, you know, becoming aware of your faults and the way that you've hurt people
00:33:31.240 or hurt yourself even.
00:33:32.600 Yes.
00:33:32.800 And if the body is truly a temple of the Lord, a reflection of, of the creation and
00:33:39.760 of the creator, God, and you're hurting yourself, then it's like, it's an affront to God, which
00:33:46.120 is why things like gluttony are sinful because it's.
00:33:48.960 But it also dulls you.
00:33:50.300 It's like a bong head or, you know, three beers or something.
00:33:53.260 It keeps you from experiencing anything beyond yourself, kind of.
00:33:58.020 Yeah.
00:33:58.800 Yeah.
00:33:59.280 You're, you're, you're, you're now creating a, a wall around the ability to be, to be connected
00:34:07.600 to from, from the divine.
00:34:09.080 And, you know, it's like you're, you're, you're walling yourself off from, from God in a way.
00:34:13.900 Totally.
00:34:14.140 It puts cheesecloth over your hole.
00:34:15.920 That's right.
00:34:17.540 You know what I mean?
00:34:18.300 I love that you used food as a reference to.
00:34:20.480 No, I'm just thinking of like something that kind of dulls the camera and makes the, the
00:34:25.440 edges softer and you sort of don't fully perceive what's happening.
00:34:28.600 I mean, you eat two Big Macs, you know, you're not as aware of anything.
00:34:34.380 Oh my gosh.
00:34:35.060 It's like, talk about comatose.
00:34:37.660 It's a head injury, right?
00:34:38.960 Yeah.
00:34:39.720 A hundred percent.
00:34:40.680 And so fasting is the opposite.
00:34:42.320 You're hyper aware.
00:34:43.160 That's right.
00:34:44.600 And your mind is just like, you, you, you sense everything.
00:34:49.240 Interesting.
00:34:49.840 It's, and the longer you do it, it starts to, you know, I once, I tried to, I know people
00:34:54.980 who have done like 40 day water fasts.
00:34:58.240 I don't like with electrolytes and stuff.
00:35:00.480 That's not, you know, whether it still sounds dangerous, but I, I don't know how I tried it
00:35:06.180 for a week, one length.
00:35:08.480 I got through four days of it and I'm like, this isn't going to work.
00:35:13.660 Your body starts to do stuff that you have no control over.
00:35:17.220 You're like, I can't imagine.
00:35:18.100 And it's like, I think we're dying.
00:35:19.720 So let's just get rid of everything.
00:35:21.480 I'm like, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa.
00:35:22.820 I'm, I'm at work.
00:35:23.860 I, this isn't, I'm on a, I'm on a set.
00:35:26.480 This doesn't work.
00:35:27.920 I can't keep running to the, so I said, Lord, please forgive me.
00:35:34.080 I can't continue this if I'm going to work for the rest of the week because I just, unless
00:35:38.100 you make it stop, it's not stopping.
00:35:40.140 So I got to, I did a little TMI, but there's the truth.
00:35:44.080 Last winter who was coming off a three week fast, he's a very spiritual man.
00:35:47.220 And I happened to be at his house when he broke his fast and he, the first course was
00:35:52.500 soup and he put, he hadn't had one thing in his mouth for three weeks other than water.
00:35:57.840 That's it.
00:35:58.680 Three week, three weeks, 21 days.
00:36:00.800 And he puts the spoon in the soup and he holds it, he's talking and he holds it in front
00:36:04.820 of his mouth.
00:36:05.300 He's making a point and I'm watching this.
00:36:07.320 Everyone's looking at it and then he puts it down and then he does it again and he's
00:36:12.260 making this point and then he puts it down again.
00:36:15.480 It's like, eat the soup.
00:36:17.300 That's self-control.
00:36:18.840 Yeah.
00:36:19.420 So as you're.
00:36:20.380 Well, at that point I would think you almost don't want to break it and you're like, how
00:36:23.260 long can I go?
00:36:24.320 That's totally right.
00:36:25.140 How far can I go with this?
00:36:26.760 It's so funny though, people go like, you know, climb, you know, pay to climb Everest
00:36:31.680 or, you know what I mean?
00:36:33.920 Or go, you know, participate in some radical sport or, and they take these crazy risks and
00:36:39.960 they push themselves to, you know, past obvious boundaries.
00:36:43.340 And I'm not, Chris, I admire that.
00:36:45.220 It's great.
00:36:46.100 But no one ever thinks to just like not eat for a week and see what happens.
00:36:49.560 Yeah.
00:36:49.820 That is a pretty bold thing to do.
00:36:53.860 And maybe we're trying.
00:36:54.920 I think everybody should try fasting.
00:36:57.980 If they've never fasted, everybody should try fasting.
00:37:01.060 I mean, you know, if you've got medical conditions, I'm not a doctor, but, but, but I think discern
00:37:06.280 it, pray about it.
00:37:07.440 And like it, I've only found it helpful.
00:37:11.480 And I think it just, even if it's just like for a day, like see what denial, denying yourself
00:37:18.940 food, what does that do for your mind, for your spirit?
00:37:22.800 But, you know, I mean, if, I don't know, if you don't have a sense of spirituality, it might
00:37:28.220 not mean anything.
00:37:29.040 It might just be like a challenge, like, I wonder if I can do it, you know, but I think
00:37:33.800 the point is not to do it for the sake of doing it.
00:37:37.180 I think to do it for the sake of, of depriving yourself and offering up the pain and, and
00:37:45.080 the discomfort.
00:37:46.640 And for some people is suffering that that might cause taking that pain and suffering and
00:37:53.380 discomfort through the fast and offering it towards an intention, a sick person, um, the
00:38:01.300 decision to, to move to a new home, um, problems that a child is having in school, any, any kind
00:38:09.280 of obstacles or challenges that seem insurmountable, fast, fast about it, pray and fast about it
00:38:17.400 and, and see what the Lord can do with that.
00:38:19.900 And with your, with your heart, because then it's, what you're doing is you're opening up
00:38:24.140 your heart.
00:38:25.060 You know, it's not about, well, if I do this exactly X, Y, and Z, I mean that Jesus's whole
00:38:30.500 thing, uh, issue with the Pharisees, you know, you cleanse the outside of a cup, but then you,
00:38:35.360 you, you, the stuff that's already inside you is just, is rotten.
00:38:39.040 Your thoughts and your heart is rotten.
00:38:40.900 So it doesn't matter that you wash your hands before you eat this and, and you eat that.
00:38:46.060 Like he was calling out the Pharisees at one point for being so, um, specific and attentive
00:38:52.760 to the law.
00:38:53.800 But meanwhile, he could see in their hearts that they just had malice and they had evil
00:38:58.820 and they were, weren't doing the right thing for the priests of the time, what they should
00:39:04.980 have been doing the same thing.
00:39:06.380 It's like fasting for just, just to see if you can get through it.
00:39:10.720 It doesn't really serve anyone other than your own ego.
00:39:15.020 That's right.
00:39:15.900 But offering up the pain that comes with the fasting, the denial that comes with fasting,
00:39:21.420 the hunger pains that then gets applied in a spiritual way that, that, that then assigns
00:39:29.940 spiritual rewards to you by, by offering that for someone.
00:39:34.920 No, that's right.
00:39:35.600 And it's, it's, by the way, just for, in point of fact, I know, cause I've done a lot of fasting
00:39:38.940 actually, and I love it.
00:39:41.080 Um, but it's not.
00:39:42.260 What's been the biggest thing that you've, that you've seen?
00:39:44.460 It's not an effective weight loss approach.
00:39:47.800 At all.
00:39:48.480 In fact, I was talking to a friend of mine the other day, who's, who's Muslim, who said,
00:39:51.540 I always get fat during Ramadan.
00:39:52.640 You know, cause the second the sun goes down, you know, you're, you're pounding a dozen
00:39:56.480 dates and going crazy with the hummus, um, which is awesome, but I don't think, I'm not,
00:40:03.860 don't ever go to me for medical advice, of course, but I, you know, I don't think going
00:40:08.060 to fasting to lose weight is like effective at all.
00:40:10.380 But I do think, I think this way, it's like, if they're pushing on you, weed, Xanax and endless
00:40:19.380 bread baskets, maybe there's an agenda, which is to make you duller and less aware of what's
00:40:24.080 going on around you.
00:40:25.140 And I think.
00:40:26.100 Sicker.
00:40:27.040 And sick, and of course, sicker, that's exactly right.
00:40:29.120 But I, I, I must say, I'd rather be dead than dull.
00:40:32.180 You know what I mean?
00:40:33.360 It's like sick is bad, but unaware is worse.
00:40:36.280 Yeah.
00:40:36.620 In my opinion.
00:40:37.380 Yeah.
00:40:38.140 There are a lot of really enlightened sick people out there, actually, you know, joyful
00:40:42.020 sick people.
00:40:42.700 Yeah.
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00:43:30.480 Okay, so you said you made reference to Jesus' exchanges with the Pharisees.
00:43:36.860 I'm reading Matthew right now.
00:43:38.320 I'm really struck this time by the intensity of his rage at the Pharisees.
00:43:45.740 Like he doesn't, he's pretty gentle with everybody else, including like the, you know, the Roman
00:43:50.820 officer, the occupying army, pagan, worshiping the stars or whatever.
00:43:55.560 Yeah.
00:43:56.020 Jesus is really kind to him.
00:43:58.100 Pharisees, I mean, it is just, Matthew goes on for like five pages.
00:44:02.660 Like he's mad.
00:44:04.180 Yeah.
00:44:04.700 What do you make of that?
00:44:07.360 Well, I think you have to ask yourself, well, why is he mad?
00:44:13.720 Yeah.
00:44:14.300 And what is he mad about?
00:44:15.520 And who are the Pharisees to him?
00:44:17.740 And I think it's, it goes back to what I was referencing in that here you have who are people
00:44:30.520 that are supposed to be models of God's law and, and rule and, um, grace.
00:44:40.440 Um, the, the, the, the, the Pharisees, like the, the, the, the, the priests, the people that
00:44:45.200 the people look up to for spiritual advice and wisdom and guidance.
00:44:51.600 And because Jesus can read souls and read their, know what's in their hearts, he sees they're,
00:44:57.140 they're probably the worst of them.
00:45:00.700 And he knows that they, they have ill will towards him and they have, they, they don't have the
00:45:10.140 interests of the people in their hearts because they're so enraptured by the letters of the law.
00:45:20.320 As he said, you're so concerned about the letter of the law that you, that you're not even
00:45:25.300 considered about the heart of the law, which is, you know, God's mercy and justice.
00:45:30.360 And, and how are these people, how are you treating these people?
00:45:35.180 I mean, the fact that they would go every year on Passover, the poorest of the poor trying to bring
00:45:41.160 their offerings and sacrifices that through extortion were getting charged 500%, may I, you know,
00:45:50.800 probably more than, than what they should have.
00:45:54.000 I don't know the exact numbers, but like, the point was that they were being extorted
00:45:57.880 every step of the way by their own leaders, these Pharisees.
00:46:03.480 And that for him was the straw that broke the camel's back.
00:46:08.760 And the next day he's like clearing the temple, you know, he's flipping the tables, flipping tables,
00:46:15.460 whipping, you know, um, using a whip to clear money changers stands and, and, and, you know,
00:46:23.060 just outraged God's righteous anger.
00:46:27.440 Yeah.
00:46:27.580 It's not the gentle Jesus at all.
00:46:29.520 No, no, excuse me.
00:46:32.580 No, it's not.
00:46:33.320 It's, um, it's, it's, it's the fury of the Lord really come to visit them.
00:46:39.320 Um, uh, it's not, you know, fire from heaven, but it's fire on earth in this man's eyes and,
00:46:46.100 and, uh, also, you know, the precursor to what sets him up for the crucifixion.
00:46:54.040 I mean, I think on some level he knows number one, he has to, he has to make an impression
00:47:00.200 and he, and he is, um, vindicated through his actions because of who they are, who the
00:47:08.720 Pharisees truly are deep down inside, but also that this will then continue the chain
00:47:16.240 of events that have been set into motion that will put him on the cross so that he can redeem
00:47:22.040 mankind.
00:47:24.180 Seems like all of his anger is reserved for hypocrites.
00:47:28.960 They get singled out repeatedly.
00:47:31.520 Um, he seems to really hate that.
00:47:33.780 Yeah.
00:47:34.060 And the people in charge, the powerful, that's my read.
00:47:38.700 I mean, I'm the opposite of the theologian.
00:47:40.380 I, I mean, I think, I think, you know, with power, you know, there's greed, there's hurting
00:47:51.340 people at, at, you know, the, at, at someone else's expense.
00:47:56.900 Yes.
00:47:57.160 Um, there's, you know, taking advantage when you have the, all of these forces that try to,
00:48:02.160 um, I think take control over, uh, a society and the people, um,
00:48:10.380 through, through, through, uh, power, through influence.
00:48:14.520 Um, and there's nothing that those people can do.
00:48:18.400 I mean, there's, it's, it's, it's the definition of injustice.
00:48:22.460 Yes.
00:48:22.960 And God is about justice.
00:48:26.060 Um, blessed are those who thirst for righteousness, who thirst for justice, basically.
00:48:31.620 Um, it's, it's, it was, it was the thing that one, it was one of the things that was most
00:48:39.120 important to him and that people experience, you know, to have justice and feel human and
00:48:43.500 be seen and be, and be not discounted because of their status, because of their, you know,
00:48:48.180 financial, um, you know, situation because of who they were, who, what family they were
00:48:54.840 born into or what, what, what, what, what, what cased for lack of a better term that they
00:48:59.940 were born into, you know?
00:49:01.140 Um, so I, I think it was, it was something that he, it was a last stand for him basically
00:49:08.900 in, in the, when he cleared the temple and it was all the preaching and, and, and the
00:49:13.660 teaching didn't have enough of an effect on the Pharisees for them to change what they
00:49:19.080 were doing.
00:49:19.920 No, it didn't.
00:49:21.040 So he, I think he had to, he had to show, don't tell, he had to show and not tell.
00:49:28.280 So when you're reading your scripts, when you're preparing, you're basically reading
00:49:33.680 the gospel.
00:49:35.380 Yeah.
00:49:36.340 Gospel plus, I'll, I'll say it's, you know, because as a TV show, it's not always, you know,
00:49:45.480 the scriptures as they are, don't always give us the full picture of a conversation.
00:49:49.960 They definitely don't.
00:49:50.780 Of a character, of a person.
00:49:52.480 So we have to, through, you know, uh, biblical, uh, these, uh, a group of biblical scholars
00:50:00.700 that, and advisors that help us, uh, and, and give insight into the things that we're
00:50:07.540 writing.
00:50:08.300 Uh, we, we have, have to craft these plausible, hopefully, uh, authentic backstories that create
00:50:18.260 believable characters that could have existed in the first century that, um, augment the
00:50:24.940 world that the gospels give us a glimpse into.
00:50:28.160 So a lot of it is scripture.
00:50:32.180 Yes.
00:50:32.580 But then there, there is some creative license taken just to be able to make a good TV show.
00:50:38.200 Cause at the end of the day, this, this isn't, this isn't the Bible.
00:50:41.420 We're not saying this is the Bible where we have a TV show first and foremost, that is
00:50:46.980 based on the gospels and hopefully is compelling enough for you to really, you know, get hooked
00:50:53.740 into it and, and binge it just like you would binge any other TV show and then start asking
00:50:59.360 yourself, well, what, what did Jesus really say?
00:51:02.880 Did he say these things?
00:51:04.240 Is this, is this character really like this?
00:51:06.980 Like, let me, I want to explore.
00:51:09.160 And then if you, if you can get people to read the Bible and then want to have a relationship
00:51:15.400 or even explore what it means to have faith, if you've never had faith, uh, or even be curious
00:51:21.700 about Christ, uh, I mean, inevitably that is the relationship in a person's life that
00:51:28.020 will change their life irrevocably.
00:51:31.800 I mean, forever.
00:51:33.380 So if we can create an entertaining story that is based on the truth of the gospels and who
00:51:41.020 Jesus and the disciples were, maybe it'll introduce people to, to Christ and in a way that the audience
00:51:49.400 is introduced to him and maybe they'll want to follow him too.
00:51:54.180 How did it change your life?
00:51:56.420 The gospel?
00:51:57.420 I think the more I read the gospels, the more I discover.
00:52:07.560 The Bible is, the Bible is alive.
00:52:09.820 It's the living word, right?
00:52:11.380 They say the Bible is alive.
00:52:12.520 And so at any given time you can read a passage from scriptures, from the gospels, even from the
00:52:22.240 old Testament, the letters of Paul, the acts, um, that somehow will apply to your own life.
00:52:31.740 And if, especially when you're struggling with something, you know, if I'm struggling with
00:52:38.440 something, I just, I just can't figure it out.
00:52:42.640 I just don't, I have no ideas about where to go to resolve it.
00:52:48.540 And inevitably there's, the answer is somewhere in the book and it's, it's a matter of sitting
00:52:56.840 down with it and reading it.
00:52:59.940 And I mean, it's remarkable the amount of times, like I, I've had something in front of me
00:53:07.260 that I just didn't know how to deal with it.
00:53:09.500 And then I would flip to a random page and it's like, the answer is right there.
00:53:15.180 It's right there.
00:53:16.020 So I stopped being surprised about it.
00:53:20.480 I just like, of course, that's, this is, yeah.
00:53:25.740 And I, I take, I take notes.
00:53:28.260 Sincere Christians never seem surprised by anything.
00:53:30.700 I've noticed that.
00:53:32.160 It's amazing.
00:53:33.100 It is amazing.
00:53:33.900 And I've, I've, I've met those people where, um, and, and we kind of talked a little bit
00:53:41.860 about this at one point where the craziest things are happening that they kind of already
00:53:54.460 had a, an intuition was going to happen.
00:53:58.180 Like, I don't even know what's a good example.
00:54:02.720 There've been so many times where it's like somebody, uh, wanted to, wanted to, to, to,
00:54:09.260 uh, trying to get rid of their house or something like that.
00:54:12.720 Try to sell their house.
00:54:13.760 And, and, uh, like they, you know, they had a, like a certain amount of time.
00:54:19.400 It's just an example.
00:54:20.160 Like they had like a week to get out of their house for somebody to buy their house.
00:54:24.020 And, and, you know, somebody just comes knocking on the door and says, Hey, you've got a beautiful
00:54:29.380 house.
00:54:29.860 You, you're not selling this by chance.
00:54:31.660 Are you?
00:54:32.560 And they're like, well, as a matter of fact, I am.
00:54:34.780 And it just so happens that they're like, Lord, just let us find somebody that wants this
00:54:39.180 house.
00:54:39.460 Like we didn't even put it on the market yet, but, and then somebody knocks on their door
00:54:43.480 like an hour later, or, you know, like, I mean, crazy, crazy stories.
00:54:47.940 And they're like, yeah, I just, God just did it.
00:54:50.120 I'm like, how, what, you, you don't seem phased.
00:54:55.760 And yes.
00:54:56.300 And that to me, even it's just, I totally agree.
00:55:01.340 Remarkable.
00:55:01.940 And to flip it over, they, they never seem shocked by how screwed up the world is.
00:55:06.840 I'm shocked every single day.
00:55:08.200 Like, I can't believe they're committing abortion outside the DNC, or I can't believe this, that.
00:55:11.940 The other thing I'm always like, I can't believe the persecution of Christians.
00:55:14.460 Why would you persecute Christians?
00:55:15.580 Yeah.
00:55:16.220 Like they've never mugged anybody.
00:55:17.460 You know, like the nice, even if you think their religion's silly, they're like the most
00:55:20.680 peaceful people in the world.
00:55:21.920 Their religion commands them to be.
00:55:23.820 Why are we hating on them and, you know, banning their apps in Europe or whatever we're doing,
00:55:28.640 putting them in jail for praying, but sincere Christians like, well, yeah.
00:55:33.540 I mean, what did you think was going to happen?
00:55:34.960 Yeah.
00:55:35.540 Do you know what I mean?
00:55:36.520 Yeah.
00:55:36.940 Because he kind of, Jesus kind of set it up that way.
00:55:39.860 Kind of did.
00:55:40.640 He kind of told us 2,000 years ago, you know, you'll be hated because of me, persecuted because
00:55:47.000 of me.
00:55:47.440 Like he lays it all out 2,000 years ago, but just know, it's okay.
00:55:57.620 I overcame the world.
00:55:59.160 It's, it's, you're good.
00:56:00.700 Just remember that you're good when things hit the fan.
00:56:07.080 Just remember that.
00:56:08.500 Well, I still find it infuriating.
00:56:10.120 Sure.
00:56:10.580 Sorry.
00:56:11.280 I'm obviously not a good person.
00:56:12.940 No.
00:56:13.280 It's a natural response.
00:56:15.540 There's a lot of persecution of Christians and I'm really bothered by it.
00:56:21.020 Yeah.
00:56:21.520 Your family, at least on one side, is Arab Christian.
00:56:26.080 Mm-hmm.
00:56:27.060 Awful lot of Arab Christians get killed in a bunch of different countries.
00:56:29.940 Yeah.
00:56:30.120 All the time.
00:56:30.780 Yeah.
00:56:31.060 And no one says a word about it.
00:56:33.340 No.
00:56:33.640 Do you notice this?
00:56:34.280 I do.
00:56:34.920 Yeah, I do a lot.
00:56:36.580 Christian persecution is something really close to my heart.
00:56:39.120 In fact, I just, executive produced an animated short film called The 21, which came out towards
00:56:47.460 the end of February on the 10th anniversary of the martyrdom of the 21 martyrs in Libya.
00:56:55.760 And who were all, well, 20 of them were Coptic Christians from Egypt.
00:57:01.060 And one of them was non-Christian initially from Ghana.
00:57:06.700 And they just rounded up all these guys.
00:57:08.840 ISIS came and rounded them up and tried to force them to deny their faith.
00:57:16.260 They're just migrant workers.
00:57:18.160 Like, just like, we're just trying to, they went off to work for a few weeks to try to make
00:57:21.500 some money.
00:57:21.880 And, and, uh, they got rounded up, just captured.
00:57:26.720 And ISIS was like, yeah, deny your faith and we'll let you go.
00:57:32.440 Don't deny it.
00:57:33.200 We'll kill you.
00:57:34.240 Like, oh, well, we're not going to do that.
00:57:37.620 So, and they, they tortured them for months.
00:57:42.240 And, um, even the guy from Ghana, ISIS said to him, like, you can go, you're not, you're
00:57:51.360 okay.
00:57:51.600 You're not Christian.
00:57:52.300 You're not one of these guys.
00:57:54.300 And he's like, no, no, no.
00:57:56.420 Their God is my God.
00:57:58.560 And so they say he converted and he died with them.
00:58:01.780 Um, and so six years ago, um, this producer friend of mine named Mark Rogers, he, he was
00:58:08.600 in Egypt and he saw, he knew about the story and he saw the image of one of these martyrs
00:58:15.460 who had, um, who had like a lazy eye, uh, and it reminded him of the image, which actually
00:58:23.240 is on this little medallion of, uh, Christ, the pantocrat or like, you know, basically it's
00:58:28.860 that figure of Christ that it's got two, both sides of his face have, uh, one, one side
00:58:34.680 of him represents the divinity of Christ.
00:58:36.960 One side represents the humanity of Christ.
00:58:40.280 And in one of the sides, oh, his eye and one side is kind of drooped and it reminded him
00:58:46.620 of, of this image of Christ.
00:58:47.940 And, and he got this idea to create this animated short film about the martyrs and their story.
00:58:57.760 And, uh, it turned out to be stunning, uh, 21film.com.
00:59:03.680 People want to see it.
00:59:04.960 Um, it's an, it's an extraordinary short film.
00:59:09.340 Um, beautiful, beautiful that, that implements Coptic iconography into the, uh, the animation.
00:59:16.780 It was actually on the Oscar shortlist.
00:59:18.880 It didn't get nominated, but it found its way onto this shortlist of 15 selections.
00:59:23.620 And then they whittle it down to the top five.
00:59:25.380 It had no marketing, it had no advertisement, nothing.
00:59:27.840 But somehow I think enough people saw this like, no, this is amazing.
00:59:31.900 And it tells their story and, and the, um, the mystical nature of their experience and
00:59:40.900 of actually the, the, their, their captors, what they experienced with these, you know,
00:59:48.420 while they had these guys in captivity and like the, the, the divinely mystical experiences
00:59:54.940 that they had.
00:59:55.980 Are captures?
00:59:56.840 Yeah.
00:59:57.260 Yeah.
00:59:57.600 Are, are, are represented in the short film.
00:59:59.920 In fact, if you haven't seen, I'll send you a link, but it's, it's gorgeous.
01:00:02.640 And at the end of the day, what people walk away with is that these guys had the opportunity
01:00:10.340 to say, no, no, I'm not Christian.
01:00:12.940 And then live, but none of them did it.
01:00:16.280 They would, they, they went to their graves, literally.
01:00:20.020 And they were just random migrant workers?
01:00:21.980 Migrant workers.
01:00:23.160 Not evangelists, just people.
01:00:24.520 Christian migrant workers, poor migrant workers, I think construction or farming or something.
01:00:30.560 And, and, uh, they, they wouldn't deny their faith.
01:00:34.720 And so I got a chance to screen this film for the first time with the families of the martyrs
01:00:40.420 10 years later.
01:00:41.380 Oh my gosh.
01:00:41.980 Which was a, words fail me because it was such an overwhelmingly powerful experience to
01:00:53.140 be there with them and kind of have them sort of reliving this experience.
01:01:00.400 But when you talk to them, full of joy, full of joy, and they, more than one of them thanked
01:01:10.520 their captors because they, they, they feel, and, and, you know, as Christians, we believe
01:01:18.420 this, that because they died for their faith, they got a straight shot right to the divine,
01:01:25.320 right to God.
01:01:26.800 They're like, we thank them because they sent them right to heaven.
01:01:29.640 So the Coptic church declared them saints.
01:01:32.420 And then very recently the Catholic church, it's the first time it's happened.
01:01:36.160 Catholic church also considered them saints because they died for the faith in the way
01:01:40.500 that they died.
01:01:41.260 Yeah.
01:01:42.020 It's so inspirational.
01:01:43.960 It's unbelievable.
01:01:45.400 And so, uh, right now I'm trying to get the film out to, for more people to see and get
01:01:51.080 it out there.
01:01:51.460 So people are aware of, of that these stories exist.
01:01:55.040 Like this is a reality for people, for Christians in the Middle East.
01:01:59.260 This is a reality, you know, that, that their lives are on the line for their beliefs.
01:02:05.140 That's for sure.
01:02:05.820 You know.
01:02:06.300 Time for their true life Alp story.
01:02:08.000 I got a call from a friend of mine yesterday, honestly, true story, who said his girlfriend
01:02:12.400 had just broken up with him over Alp.
01:02:14.920 He wouldn't stop.
01:02:15.940 And I thought to myself, that's kind of sad.
01:02:17.200 And he said, no, it's not sad.
01:02:19.640 Imagine if I'd married her.
01:02:22.400 Now I know.
01:02:23.500 I was saved.
01:02:24.840 Then the next day, this same friend is driving at twice the speed limit through a major American
01:02:29.000 city, pulled over by a cop in a speed trap.
01:02:31.140 Cop takes his license registration, goes back to the patrol car, runs him, comes back, looks
01:02:34.980 in the window and sees a tin of Alp on the dashboard, pauses, stunned, says to my friend, use Alp?
01:02:41.700 Yeah, I do, says my friend.
01:02:43.120 So do I, says the cop.
01:02:44.100 We all do.
01:02:45.100 He looks at my friend thoughtfully and goes, drive safely, sir, and hands back his license
01:02:48.800 and registration.
01:02:49.440 No ticket.
01:02:51.220 So in two days, he's saved from a tragic marriage to a girl who doesn't like Alp and
01:02:55.980 a speeding ticket.
01:02:57.080 All true.
01:02:57.600 So it's more than a nicotine marriage.
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01:03:15.440 Give us your Alp story.
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01:04:20.620 You must learn a lot from playing this role.
01:04:25.320 I have.
01:04:27.140 Yeah.
01:04:27.540 I've learned how much I have to learn.
01:04:32.520 It's just, I don't know how often we think of Jesus as fully a man, though, as you pointed out, he was.
01:04:38.920 Yeah.
01:04:40.120 What's that like, trying to get inside the head of Jesus?
01:04:43.280 Well, I don't think I can ever do it successfully, like, completely.
01:04:50.880 I can, the only thing that I, I mean, I can't do it successfully at all.
01:04:55.320 The only thing that I can do, believing Jesus was fully God and fully man, but sinless in his humanity.
01:05:04.440 The only thing that I can relate to is the humanity part and my own flawed humanity at that, deeply flawed, deeply, deeply flawed humanity.
01:05:19.780 But luckily, I, I don't have to rely on me.
01:05:25.640 I don't rely on me.
01:05:27.340 I rely on him.
01:05:28.240 And so my job is to simply show up, come with a, an open heart.
01:05:38.360 I do a lot of praying and fasting before the, every season.
01:05:43.120 I pray before every scene and then do the best that I can to, to simply be, for lack of a better term, a mirror of the divine.
01:05:58.580 And so I'm like, I just show up and I'm like, I'm just trying to mirror the divine, reading the words that I have, being a vessel for which the Holy Spirit can use me to reach the truth of the gospel to, to the people that watch this show.
01:06:18.720 And, and if it goes beyond entertainment for some people, awesome.
01:06:25.020 I mean, um, between, um, between the show and between the Hallow app, the amount of feedback and changed lives that have, uh, occurred, um, the stories that, that we get about people that, you know, that are, they were, they were atheists all their life and somebody gave them the show.
01:06:51.040 And all of a sudden they, something tweaked in their heart and they're like, why don't I feel this way about this guy?
01:07:00.360 Like, I want to, I want to know this guy.
01:07:04.700 Or people who have been, haven't been to church in 30 years.
01:07:10.920 Elapsed Catholics, like I haven't been to church in 30 years.
01:07:14.140 I started going back to church.
01:07:15.360 Went to my first confession in 30 years.
01:07:19.320 Went to my first confession in 15 years.
01:07:21.080 Like I've heard all of these things.
01:07:24.320 I even went, I was in confession once myself and I, a guy came out of the confessional one.
01:07:30.680 He recognized me.
01:07:31.920 He's like, oh yeah.
01:07:33.580 And so he starts talking to me and then he starts, starts to tell me what he was telling the priest in the confession.
01:07:39.600 I said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you see, you, anything interesting.
01:07:43.380 You keep it in there.
01:07:44.260 I wouldn't let him get that for you.
01:07:47.120 No, I said, that's, that's not for my ears.
01:07:50.380 Save it for the confessor.
01:07:52.400 So it's, I'm not Catholic, but I've always thought that, um, confession is the coolest thing they do.
01:07:59.360 It's a, it's a gift, man.
01:08:01.020 It's a lifesaver.
01:08:01.840 Of course we, when it became psychotherapy and you put like an atheist with bad judgment on the couch across from you, it, I don't think we lost something.
01:08:12.020 Do you know what I mean?
01:08:13.920 Yeah.
01:08:14.960 Yeah.
01:08:15.840 But the human need to connect, to unburden yourself, you know what's wrong, by the way.
01:08:20.980 Most people know, you know, you don't need to be a Christian to know what's wrong.
01:08:24.440 Everyone knows, inside you, you know when you're doing something wrong.
01:08:26.880 Yeah.
01:08:27.040 And to say it out loud, to articulate it in words, is to rid yourself of it, to some extent, I think.
01:08:35.440 Yeah.
01:08:36.020 And then, and then for, for the sacramental part of it, that's, that's where the healing comes in.
01:08:41.720 That's where the spiritual healing comes in.
01:08:43.480 So it's like, it's like if you're a cheesecloth full of holes, right?
01:08:49.540 And you go into confession and you receive the sacrament of reconciliation from the priest.
01:08:54.600 Now the priest, you know, we believe he's been given divine authority that has a pot, maybe a not visible, but a tangible, physical, metaphysical effect on, on the casing of your soul.
01:09:10.220 And it's like mending the little holes.
01:09:13.760 Every confession is like, you're, you're closing up those holes and restoring that connection with God in a way that, that is essentially repairing your soul.
01:09:26.680 That's, that's what the, the sacramental part of confession is for us, which, which is hugely comforting and also physically tangible.
01:09:38.800 I, I, for me, I, I feel just chemically slightly different after every confession that I go through in a way that's like, okay, I can breathe a little easier.
01:09:53.740 I believe, I believe that completely.
01:09:55.640 I've never experienced it, but I believe that.
01:09:57.980 It's, it's, it's like nothing else.
01:10:00.780 What's it like for you to be recognized on the street for playing Jesus?
01:10:05.000 I know just from having dinner with you last night and telling people you were coming here, there's a lot of intensity.
01:10:13.440 Like you're, I've been on television for 30 years.
01:10:17.160 I've never experienced anything like what you experienced, for example, in my house last night.
01:10:21.980 People are very intense when they see you.
01:10:25.180 It's bound up in their feelings for you, but also their feelings for Jesus.
01:10:29.360 Yeah.
01:10:29.420 What's that like?
01:10:30.940 I, I give, I give God all the credit.
01:10:33.220 I give Jesus the credit.
01:10:34.480 And, uh, you know, like I'm like, like our buddy Russell Brand, like I was once his stand-in.
01:10:42.620 I, I, I feel like I'm Jesus's stand-in.
01:10:45.220 Jesus is the star and I'm his stand-in.
01:10:47.200 You were Russell Brand's stand-in.
01:10:48.580 I was Russell Brand's stand-in.
01:10:49.940 Looking at you, I'm not that surprised.
01:10:52.080 That's, if I was casting a stand-in for Russell Brand, I think it would be you.
01:10:55.640 Not too bad, eh?
01:10:56.580 It's all right.
01:10:57.160 And so we had a good time with him.
01:10:58.580 Yeah, he's all right.
01:10:59.560 He's a good mate.
01:11:00.580 He's a good guy.
01:11:01.280 He's a good man.
01:11:02.020 I love that man.
01:11:02.920 I love him so much.
01:11:04.120 I totally agree.
01:11:05.360 Um, but I mean, it, without getting like too personal, it's got to have a picture of life.
01:11:11.460 Yeah.
01:11:12.100 Yeah.
01:11:12.680 Like maybe not all positive.
01:11:15.600 Like what's Whole Foods like for you?
01:11:17.940 Oh, depends on what part of town.
01:11:20.540 No, I was going to say, that's probably, probably not too many people watching the shows in Whole Foods,
01:11:24.740 but like a normal non-atheist grocery store.
01:11:28.000 No, but it, I mean, let's take Whole Foods.
01:11:29.660 So in some parts of the country, uh, I, you know, I got to go in with a hood and glasses.
01:11:35.800 And in other parts, especially the coastal cities like New York and LA, it's, it's just another day.
01:11:41.660 Um, so it, it can be, uh, they mistake you for a bike messenger, but in Michigan, they know.
01:11:51.540 That's, that's very appropriate.
01:11:53.620 Yeah.
01:11:54.020 Uh, that's very appropriate.
01:11:55.480 It can, it can be, um, interesting.
01:11:58.700 I think because of who I'm playing and because there is this, oftentimes this front-loaded relationship
01:12:13.560 that they already have with Jesus.
01:12:15.680 And then I become the stand-in, like the face of that relationship that they now, when they read the Bible,
01:12:24.140 I've been told this, my face pops into their mind as they're hearing scriptures or they're seeing.
01:12:29.640 I mean, even for myself, when, when I'm at mass and the priest is reading the gospel
01:12:34.940 and he's talking about Peter, I'm, I'm thinking of Shahar Isaac who plays Peter in our show.
01:12:41.880 And I'm like, okay, yeah, I can't get him out of my head.
01:12:45.160 And, uh, yeah, but okay.
01:12:47.440 I love Shahar and he's great as Peter.
01:12:49.440 And so, yeah, it's just, you try, even as an artist, like you, you, you still suffer that.
01:12:54.980 You know, you just, you, you can't quite make the separation.
01:12:57.880 Of course you're in your being, yeah.
01:12:58.220 Yeah, because you've, you now have this relationship with these people and these characters.
01:13:04.140 And so to be the face of what is often the most important relationship in a person's life.
01:13:11.880 I mean, even beyond their family, it's like God first and then family and then everything else.
01:13:18.920 To be the face of that for people, uh, I, I don't often, I try not to think about that.
01:13:25.960 Yeah.
01:13:26.480 It's, it's more than being a sidekick on Seinfeld.
01:13:29.500 Yeah.
01:13:31.180 Yeah.
01:13:31.660 And, and, and I think God's given me the, the, the, the gift and the grace of kind of being somewhat blinded to the magnitude of it and the weight of it.
01:13:50.160 That's good.
01:13:50.620 Sometimes I can feel it.
01:13:54.320 Most of the time I think I'm shielded from it because I think if I, if I was aware of exactly what, what that implication was, even for a single person, it would crush me.
01:14:09.040 Yeah, self-awareness is a burden.
01:14:11.120 I would not recommend it at all.
01:14:12.700 I don't have any, so it's never bothered me.
01:14:15.120 But, um, I know people who are highly self-aware and they're like in agony all day.
01:14:19.340 Yeah.
01:14:19.720 I mean, other things I, I like, I have a lot of that in other areas, but when it comes to playing this character, I'm glad I don't have much.
01:14:28.160 Smart.
01:14:28.520 No, it's so, what a, that is a blessing.
01:14:30.480 I, yeah.
01:14:31.040 What is Hallow and how'd you hook up with it?
01:14:35.200 Hallow is the world's largest and for my money, the greatest prayer and meditation app a person can ever find.
01:14:47.500 Like ever.
01:14:48.400 There are thousands and thousands of ways, prayers and challenges and meditations that people can use in their daily life to the point of automation.
01:15:01.920 They just set it up and you get reminders where you can just connect with God in the most creative ways.
01:15:11.940 For me, it has been amazing.
01:15:18.400 A way to keep me completely focused on God when I'm in the middle of life, it can be, it's an opportunity for me to, to access, um, my faith in a consistent way and, uh, and to, to, to get through life's biggest challenges.
01:15:39.400 I mean, there's, there's, there's so many prayers on this app that I use daily, like daily.
01:15:47.600 Um, and you know, for instance, there's a prayer called the, the surrender novena.
01:15:53.160 Novena just is, it's a Latin word, just means nine days.
01:15:56.600 So it's a, it's a prayer you say for nine days.
01:15:58.700 And this, uh, this particular prayer has been so valuable to so many people.
01:16:06.460 Basically, it's, it's very simple, but you repeat it like 10 times and there's all in, in, in the app, like it, it walks you through it.
01:16:15.720 But the, the essence of it is this prayer where you simply say, Oh Jesus, I surrender myself to you.
01:16:26.680 Take care of everything.
01:16:28.720 Oh Jesus, I surrender myself to you.
01:16:30.920 Take care of everything.
01:16:32.380 And you repeat that like 10 times.
01:16:33.900 And the number of people that have experienced profound grace and, um, just ease of their burden, the lightness of the weight in their life.
01:16:51.060 It's been, I mean, I, I've, I've never, I've never heard of a prayer that's had such a profound effect.
01:16:58.040 Like the rosary is another one.
01:16:59.220 And so there was this couple, they were trying to have their first baby.
01:17:05.680 They had a miscarriage.
01:17:08.400 They were in a, a pretty severe state, crisis, depression, everything that comes with that.
01:17:16.760 They see an app for Hallow.
01:17:18.580 They download the app.
01:17:19.500 They start praying.
01:17:21.680 Specifically, they start praying the surrender prayer that I was telling you about this surrender novena and the rosary.
01:17:27.240 And they were Catholic as well.
01:17:28.420 So they're familiar with them.
01:17:29.780 So they prayed the rosary, super powerful weapon, and the surrender novena.
01:17:37.740 And they get pregnant again.
01:17:39.120 And their relationship is really growing together in faith and in God's strongest that it's ever been.
01:17:48.340 Five months in, they lose the baby.
01:17:50.500 Oh.
01:17:50.720 And they're holding their past son who had passed away.
01:18:01.420 And the words that come to mind for this woman is, is the surrender prayer.
01:18:06.780 Oh, Jesus, I surrender myself to you.
01:18:13.540 Take care of everything.
01:18:14.520 It's the first words that come to our mind.
01:18:15.840 And they told us, they said that if they hadn't gotten into this consistent routine of communicating with God through prayer, if their faith hadn't been strengthened, that second miscarriage would have destroyed their marriage.
01:18:35.860 And the first words that came out of her mouth at that time was the prayer from Numbers.
01:18:52.120 And the Lord bless you and keep you.
01:18:56.980 Lord, shine his face upon you.
01:18:58.720 Be gracious to you.
01:19:00.040 The Lord look kindly upon you and give you peace.
01:19:02.760 I think their son's name was Jack, I think.
01:19:09.340 And so, the power of having that relationship, the power of prayer, the power of being in a constant dialogue with God, it's what we were made for.
01:19:21.720 We were designed to worship.
01:19:24.040 We were designed for that relationship.
01:19:25.580 It's in our DNA.
01:19:26.340 And the more we try to ignore it or squash it or bury it or ignore it or pretend it doesn't exist or that it's not there or replace it with something else, the more we just run in circles.
01:19:39.920 The more we try to fill that hole with something else, with some other vice, some other endeavor, some other, you know, righteous indignation of something, some other effort that will never substitute, never replace our need for God.
01:20:02.320 It'll never replace it.
01:20:03.400 And so, for me, it's like playing Jesus in The Chosen.
01:20:16.040 It's one of the most important things that I've ever done artistically.
01:20:22.100 All of this, for me, feels like an apostolate.
01:20:26.740 It feels like I'm a media apostle.
01:20:30.440 I feel like that's what I was sent here to do, like, at this time and place to kind of be a part of this, what I see is this growing movement in film and television, in the culture that is truly counterculture to the current culture.
01:20:50.420 That's for sure.
01:20:51.240 You know, and to be a part of the ushering in of this opportunity of expression that supersedes the previous iterations of what this looked like.
01:21:10.440 Because it's so attentive to quality, like The Chosen aims to be a great TV show first.
01:21:22.400 And because of that, the fact that the people making it are really invested in the subject matter make it that much more powerful.
01:21:34.280 And then, from a very myopically human level, and then God sees that, and He takes it, and He multiplies it.
01:21:45.240 He multiplies the magnitude of it.
01:21:47.900 The efficacy of it is then energized and multiplied globally.
01:21:53.520 But even just reaching one person and changing one person's life, Dallas will tell you this as well, it's worth it just for one person.
01:22:04.140 All the discomfort or whatever I may or may not feel in the world as people approach me wanting to take a selfie in the gym or in the supermarket when I'm clearly trying to, like, get in and out.
01:22:19.100 I mean, all of that discomfort for me personally, and it's, I've been through worse.
01:22:24.620 You know, like, I've been through real discomfort that it's nothing.
01:22:27.600 Something, but it's relative, you know what I'm saying?
01:22:29.820 So, all of it's worth it, because one person decided to go get baptized, and now they have, like, they have a whole new life.
01:22:38.520 They have a whole new, they have a spiritual awakening.
01:22:42.460 It's amazing to me how successful it's been, and it's amazing to me the reaction to it.
01:22:50.540 Banned in China.
01:22:51.940 Yeah.
01:22:53.100 It's not calling for the overthrow of the CCP.
01:22:55.460 It's not calling for the...
01:22:56.740 Hallowup is banned in China, yeah.
01:22:57.960 Hallowup is banned in China.
01:22:58.860 Yeah.
01:22:59.040 It's also effectively banned in Europe, in effect, because Mark Zuckerberg's company, Meta, has shut down all advertising for religious-oriented, faith-based advertising.
01:23:09.840 Yeah.
01:23:11.020 So, it can't operate in Europe.
01:23:12.860 Yeah, that was a tough one.
01:23:14.080 They had just launched in Polish and Italian and, I think, German and, like, all these languages, and now they can't, people can't know about the app because they've banned it.
01:23:25.400 But why is that a threat?
01:23:26.300 I mean, it just does tell you everything, right?
01:23:28.280 I mean, it's like, it's like understanding things in reverse.
01:23:33.480 Yeah.
01:23:34.440 It's like, why would they be upset with that?
01:23:37.200 That's like the kindest, least threatening, you know, only want to help people.
01:23:43.320 Like, why is that bad?
01:23:44.500 Yeah.
01:23:44.760 Exactly.
01:23:45.040 I'd be curious to hear the EU's answer for that, or Meta's answer for that.
01:23:48.960 Yeah, Mark Zuckerberg's answer for that.
01:23:52.260 And China's answer for that.
01:23:54.000 Like, what's wrong with that?
01:23:55.600 Yeah.
01:23:55.900 It tells you a lot, but you don't seem shocked by that at all.
01:24:00.380 No.
01:24:00.860 No, you're not.
01:24:01.480 I mean, when you read of the stories for decades of people smuggling Bibles into countries, you know, underground churches.
01:24:09.360 Because even in the story that we cover in the Pray 40 Challenge for Halo, it's the story of this guy, Takashi Nagai.
01:24:17.960 I mean, he was living in Nagasaki, Japan, right around the time of the Second World War when the bomb was dropped on his town, on Nagasaki.
01:24:31.200 And Japan had just come out of 300 years, basically, of Christian, you know, persecution.
01:24:39.100 Like, they had gotten rid of any, you know, they, I mean, I think in the late 16th century, they were crucifying people.
01:24:51.100 Oh, yeah.
01:24:52.600 And then 300 plus years later, Nagasaki's now the largest Christian hub in all of Japan.
01:25:02.560 And it wasn't the first target for the bomb.
01:25:06.160 No.
01:25:06.480 They tried to drop the bomb somewhere else.
01:25:08.080 This is all in the story that people hear about this length.
01:25:11.920 It's an amazing story.
01:25:13.460 This man's story is amazing.
01:25:14.620 Takashi Nagai, he's a radiologist, doctor.
01:25:19.200 The first target, they tried to drop the bomb and it was too cloudy.
01:25:23.680 They couldn't see and they didn't have the conditions appropriate to drop an atomic bomb.
01:25:29.280 So their second target was Nagasaki, oddly enough, right above a cathedral.
01:25:38.080 And it blew up, detonated right over the cathedral and wiped out everything.
01:25:44.140 And he survived.
01:25:46.340 Nobody else, his family, everybody died.
01:25:48.260 Killed the majority of the Christians in Nagasaki, which was the Christian capital of Japan.
01:25:52.140 Yeah.
01:25:52.620 Yeah.
01:25:52.800 I'd love to hear an answer for why people are very enthusiastic about that and think it's great.
01:25:58.260 I don't think it's great.
01:25:58.960 And I think there should be a law that American armaments can't be used to murder Christians abroad.
01:26:05.380 That's pretty simple.
01:26:06.880 I agree.
01:26:07.420 There is a thing that I wanted to read that he read, that he said right after the bombing, which he had converted from atheism.
01:26:16.880 He was Shinto and then he was atheist and then he converted to Christianity and Catholicism.
01:26:22.320 And he was influenced by the writings of Blaise Pascal.
01:26:26.320 So he gave a speech to his community.
01:26:31.140 He was one of the very few survivors in his community.
01:26:33.960 And this just goes to show you the resilience and the mindset of him and how having faith can completely change the perspective.
01:26:48.480 Especially when you're effectively living in hell on earth, which is what Nagasaki was after the dropping of the bomb.
01:26:57.060 People were walking around asking for water while their skin is melting off, like it's literal hell on earth.
01:27:04.740 He said, I have heard that the atom bomb was destined for another city.
01:27:10.640 Heavy clouds rendered that target impossible.
01:27:13.240 And the American crew headed for the secondary target, Nagasaki.
01:27:19.360 Then a mechanical problem arose and the bomb was dropped further north than planned and burst right above the cathedral.
01:27:29.960 It was not the American crew, I believe, who chose our suburb.
01:27:35.000 God's providence chose Urakami, the suburb, and carried the bomb right above our homes.
01:27:41.720 Is there not a profound relationship between the annihilation of Nagasaki and the end of the war?
01:27:50.100 Was not Nagasaki the chosen victim, the lamb without blemish, slain as a whole burnt offering on an altar of sacrifice,
01:28:00.380 atoning for the sins of all the nations during World War II?
01:28:03.800 Happy are those who weep.
01:28:11.060 They shall be comforted.
01:28:13.900 We must walk the way of reparation.
01:28:16.100 But we can turn our minds' eyes to Jesus, carrying his cross up the hill of Calvary.
01:28:24.360 The Lord has given.
01:28:26.420 The Lord has taken away.
01:28:29.100 Blessed be the name of the Lord.
01:28:31.480 Let us be thankful that Nagasaki was chosen for the whole burnt sacrifice.
01:28:35.660 Let us be thankful that through this sacrifice, peace was granted to the world and religious freedom to Japan.
01:28:47.340 Wow.
01:28:48.560 Is that not a profound perspective?
01:28:51.220 That is not a normal secular perspective, I would say.
01:28:56.340 No.
01:28:57.620 No.
01:28:58.140 That's amazing.
01:28:59.020 That is the power of a relationship with Christ.
01:29:02.220 That's what that does.
01:29:03.080 So for people who haven't heard it, tell us what you do for HALO.
01:29:08.580 So I am one of the main voices on HALO for prayers.
01:29:14.620 So if you want to pray a specific prayer, chances are I've recorded it and you can hear me pray it.
01:29:21.280 Or for any of the challenges like the Pray 40 challenge, I will be guiding people through this challenge,
01:29:29.020 telling people about Takashi Nagai's story.
01:29:33.080 And I'm also kind of a creative advisor as well and come to them with ideas and work with them on different things that they're doing.
01:29:43.580 And yeah, I love working with them.
01:29:47.920 They've been such great partners.
01:29:49.840 And I think the reason is, is that they're believers themselves.
01:29:55.600 You know, they're doing this.
01:29:57.420 I mean, you had Alex on the show and you heard his story.
01:30:01.120 I mean, he originally created the app for himself.
01:30:04.800 And, you know, God took that desire and that intention in his heart and then amplified it.
01:30:12.300 And now it's the largest prayer app in the world.
01:30:17.540 It's a frequent conversation at my house.
01:30:19.340 I told you yesterday, my wife's very kind, never scolds me for anything.
01:30:23.180 But when she saw my schedule and saw you were coming and that we hadn't invited you for dinner,
01:30:28.040 she actually did bark at me because she's like your biggest fan.
01:30:30.900 What?
01:30:31.820 What?
01:30:34.360 Pretty detached from my schedule.
01:30:36.300 But yeah.
01:30:37.820 So yes.
01:30:38.400 Thank God for your wife.
01:30:39.380 Thank God for my wife.
01:30:40.580 Not the first time I've thought that.
01:30:42.580 Thank you.
01:30:43.220 It has really been wonderful the last 24 hours to talk to you.
01:30:48.380 And it's been my honor.
01:30:50.000 Thank you very much.
01:30:51.080 Thanks, Tucker.
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