The Tucker Carlson Show - Margaret Roberts Exposes the True Story of the Oklahoma City Bombing and the Ongoing Cover-Up

00:00:00.360 So you're, I would say, one of the living experts on the Oklahoma City bombing, which to some of us seems like just the other day, but it was 30 years ago this year.

00:00:09.460 So for those not steeped in the details of the story, if you wouldn't mind giving us the overview, what was the Oklahoma City bombing?

00:00:15.780 Sure. The Oklahoma City bombing was and is America's deadliest domestic terror attack.

00:00:28.560 It happened on a Wednesday morning in 1995, an April morning, out of nowhere, nine in the morning at the federal building, the Alfred P. Muirah Federal Building, nine stories tall.

00:00:45.480 A devastating explosion hit the building and killed 168 people who were working or visiting the building that morning.

00:01:02.620 The front of the building looked like ice cream that had been scooped out.

00:01:09.280 It was just a scene of unbelievable destruction and death and blood and confusion.

00:01:19.080 And the entire nation was left just aghast that this could have happened in America's heartland.

00:01:27.040 It was shocking and there was immediately, there was confusion.

00:01:51.180 I remember that morning well in April and people immediately went on CNN to say that Muslims had done it.

00:01:59.500 That was the first understanding was this was some kind of Islamic terror attack.

00:02:03.520 And then we were told that, no, it was really one guy with an accomplice who wasn't there.

00:02:12.700 The guy was called Timothy McVeigh.

00:02:14.200 He had a rider truck full of ammonium nitrate fertilizer mixed with diesel fuel, I think.

00:02:21.520 Yes.

00:02:22.340 And that's when most of us learned that that that that mixture could produce an explosion like this.

00:02:28.620 Now, that's, I think, well known, but that's what that's when most of us learned it. 0.91

00:02:32.160 And he was a white supremacist. 0.93

00:02:34.100 He was mad at the government. 0.82

00:02:35.220 He was mad about Waco and Ruby Ridge.

00:02:38.020 And he's a former he was a veteran.

00:02:42.840 And but he was part of a network of white supremacists.

00:02:45.420 And and then we spent the next year or two hearing about this.

00:02:49.020 Bill Clinton often referred to this.

00:02:51.160 And then he was executed.

00:02:53.880 And that was kind of the end of the story.

00:02:55.760 So that's that's the layman's understanding of Oklahoma City.

00:03:00.940 Yes.

00:03:01.420 And it was quite an amazing couple of days in lightning fast speed.

00:03:09.400 The FBI found Timothy McVeigh tracing the axle from the rider truck to a motel 275 miles north in Kansas, where McVeigh had checked in to the motel using his own name.

00:03:35.500 And pretty soon, just within a matter of a couple of days, the FBI found its way to Perry, Oklahoma, about 75 miles north of Oklahoma City, where McVeigh had been arrested on traffic charges, driving his Mercury car, the getaway car without a license plate.

00:04:01.200 And the officer, the arresting officer found that he was carrying a concealed weapon.

00:04:09.100 McVeigh was very polite the entire time.

00:04:14.140 There was no thought that McVeigh was connected to the bombing.

00:04:19.720 The highway patrolman took him into the Perry jail and he sat there.

00:04:26.160 He was on his way to a bond hearing and to be released when the FBI, through this incredible speed of their investigation, found him in Perry, Oklahoma on Friday afternoon.

00:04:40.980 For that now famous perp walk out the door without a vest in his orange jumpsuit and his thousand mile stare and the gathered crowd around chanting baby killer.

00:05:01.220 That's what we remember of our first sight of Timothy McVeigh, the suspected bomber.

00:05:10.720 Boy, the FBI is good.

00:05:12.660 I mean, they got him within days on the basis of a truck axle.

00:05:15.720 How did they say they did that?

00:05:17.340 They tracked the VIN number on the truck axle to Ryder in Florida and Ryder had a record of that truck being rented out of Junction City, Kansas.

00:05:38.020 And so they went to the rental agency and sure enough, put two and two together.

00:05:45.360 The identification was made from first the rider, the rental truck agency where McVeigh had rented the truck.

00:05:58.080 They remembered him and they made a composite sketch of the two men, not one, but two men who had been present for the rental of the truck.

00:06:10.920 And with the sketches, the FBI spanned out in Junction City and found that motel where McVeigh had registered under his own name.

00:06:25.300 What do you mean two men?

00:06:26.900 Who was the other man?

00:06:27.580 The other man, who eventually would emerge as the mystery man of the Oklahoma City bombing, was never identified.

00:06:38.800 But the staff at Elliott's body shop where they rented the Ryder truck two days before the bombing on a Monday,

00:06:49.340 they all said there was a second man there and he was described as being very muscular, having a tattoo, having dark hair and just standing to the side while John Doe One, who called himself Robert Kling, rented the truck.

00:07:11.800 Okay, so, and Robert Kling was Timothy McVeigh.

00:07:16.380 Robert Kling was John Doe One, believed to have been Timothy McVeigh.

00:07:21.460 Who in the end was convicted, sentenced to death and executed in pretty short order.

00:07:27.240 Right.

00:07:27.720 When was he executed?

00:07:29.160 He was executed in 2001.

00:07:31.800 That is short order for a capital crime.

00:07:34.800 For sure, yeah, for sure.

00:07:36.880 Six years later.

00:07:38.160 So, he's been dead for 24 years.

00:07:42.020 The terror attack was 30 years ago.

00:07:44.720 When you say the man with him was never identified, do you mean to this day?

00:07:49.880 To this day, never identified and really the abiding mystery of the case.

00:07:57.340 I'm confused.

00:07:58.320 How could you have the biggest terror attack, domestic terror attack in U.S. history, destroy, you know, the downtown of a major American city and you don't, over 30 years, you don't find the second guy?

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00:11:21.100 Let's go back.

00:11:21.780 Are we sure there was a second guy?

00:11:24.060 Yes.

00:11:24.920 Although it has been disputed.

00:11:28.980 We're sure because, first of all, 24 ordinary people in Oklahoma City who eventually were interviewed

00:11:41.600 by the FBI about the bombing run, 24 eyewitnesses saw Timothy McVeigh with a second man in the Ryder truck.

00:11:55.240 So, we know he was there.

00:11:58.200 As you can remember, the investigation was a very big deal for a very long time.

00:12:05.540 Journalism covered it and journalists reported, top journalists reported that the FBI had surveillance videotape

00:12:17.400 because, of course, that's what they do in a big crime like this.

00:12:21.840 They went out and collected all the videotape.

00:12:25.200 And they had John Doe 2 with Timothy McVeigh on videotape delivering the bomb.

00:12:33.980 They had videotape of the bomb exploding.

00:12:38.580 The preliminary hearing for the case was held, you know, a week or so after the crime.

00:12:49.440 And the videotapes were discussed there.

00:12:53.700 The FBI agent on the witness stand admitted that the FBI had videotape of the delivery,

00:13:01.480 at least of the truck on its way to deliver the bomb.

00:13:05.180 So, we know that John Doe 2 was real.

00:13:10.000 Well, now I'm really confused because I don't, I mean, why is John Doe 2 not at the top of the FBI most wanted list

00:13:18.540 as a perpetrator of the country's worst domestic terror attack in its history?

00:13:25.000 Pretty soon and in puzzling fashion, considering that this was the biggest manhunt in history,

00:13:35.040 it was a global manhunt.

00:13:36.980 There was a $2 million reward offered for the identification and capture of John Doe 2.

00:13:45.440 But pretty soon, within a couple of months, the FBI began to back away from John Doe 2.

00:13:55.740 They produced a new theory that John Doe 2 was a case of mistaken identity,

00:14:03.900 that the staffer that was the basis of the sketch at the body shop was mistaken,

00:14:12.740 that he was really talking about a completely innocent soldier who...

00:14:17.980 So, I'm sorry to interrupt, but just to hold this up.

00:14:21.320 So, this is the flyer produced by the FBI after the terror attack, right?

00:14:27.820 So, I believe that turned out to be Tim McVeigh right there.

00:14:31.500 Believed to be Timothy McVeigh, our investigation would raise some questions about that.

00:14:36.640 But yes, a look-alike for Timothy McVeigh or a look-alike for Timothy McVeigh.

00:14:41.220 But at least we can kind of account for this guy, whether it's the correct accounting or not.

00:14:45.140 Absolutely.

00:14:46.280 This is the sketch of John Doe 2.

00:14:48.680 But this is produced by the feds.

00:14:50.980 This is FBI.

00:14:51.720 FBI.

00:14:52.160 Okay.

00:14:53.160 So, and this person has never been identified, no one's looking for him, and the FBI is now saying he never existed.

00:15:01.780 That's correct.

00:15:02.880 Okay.

00:15:04.400 Given that you had dozens of people identify this person as a person, you know, as being alive and being with Tim McVeigh,

00:15:13.300 dozens of people, and given that the FBI itself said, yeah, he existed,

00:15:18.620 on what basis are they now saying he never existed?

00:15:22.840 Well, a couple of months later, they introduced a new story.

00:15:29.000 This was that the man believed to be John Doe 2 was this innocent soldier who had come into the body shop the day before

00:15:46.000 and had somehow been mistakenly time-traveled into their, into the memory of the mechanic who gave the info about the sketch,

00:15:57.340 but that it was all just a mistake that Timothy McVeigh was by himself.

00:16:02.500 It was never a very credible explanation.

00:16:05.680 Did they identify this?

00:16:07.360 Yes, they identified him.

00:16:08.780 They talked to him.

00:16:09.680 They found that, you know, he had the baseball cap that some of the witnesses had described John Doe 2 wearing,

00:16:21.040 and he was in with a friend, so the two of them were together.

00:16:27.160 And it was somewhat, it was somewhat credible or credible enough,

00:16:34.300 and they were very certain and confident about it, and the story began to change.

00:16:41.700 So they said, if I'm following this, that actually some other guy and a buddy walked into the same body shop around the same time,

00:16:50.480 and the guy at the body shop just misremembered and thought that that guy was with Tim McVeigh.

00:16:55.520 That's right.

00:16:56.080 But he wasn't.

00:16:56.680 That's right.

00:16:57.560 And so the FBI is now saying that Tim McVeigh did this alone.

00:17:00.660 Yes.

00:17:01.040 Okay.

00:17:02.120 How do they explain away the eyewitness testimony of people who were there at the scene and saw them both in the truck together?

00:17:11.920 Tucker, that is one of the abiding questions never answered about this case.

00:17:18.860 And as a matter of fact, years later, after some of the controversies that would, you know, develop,

00:17:26.300 one of the top case commanders, Danny Colson, conceded that this single fact of 24 eyewitnesses who saw John Doe 2

00:17:40.720 in the bomb truck with Timothy McVeigh is not something that can just be explained away with this new story.

00:17:52.400 I have an idea.

00:17:53.440 Let's go to the videotape.

00:17:54.820 There was videotape that was admitted, you said, on the stand by a federal officer that they had the videotape.

00:18:02.120 So that would just show where, where's the video, have you seen the videotape?

00:18:05.500 No one, Tucker, has seen that videotape.

00:18:09.280 In 30 years?

00:18:10.040 Outside the FBI.

00:18:12.380 In 30 years, they've never produced that.

00:18:14.720 They've never produced it.

00:18:15.880 And imagine this was an incredibly high-profile mass murder trial.

00:18:26.220 Those images were not shown at the trial.

00:18:30.980 The videotape was not shown at the trial.

00:18:33.520 It was not shown at the trial?

00:18:34.820 No.

00:18:35.260 Why?

00:18:37.060 Well, that's never been credibly answered by the FBI.

00:18:41.900 Okay.

00:18:42.580 Okay.

00:18:43.260 So I just want to start as big picture as we can. 0.72

00:18:46.820 Before we get into the details, but I'm already coming just as an ignorant person who sort of remembers all of this.

00:18:55.200 We're coming to points that are just like don't make any sense at all on the most basic level.

00:18:59.400 And there are many of these.

00:19:00.760 I'm aware.

00:19:01.620 I'm now aware.

00:19:03.660 But I want to go into this slowly because I think this is not one of those.

00:19:07.920 This is not the Kennedy assassination.

00:19:09.200 This is not something on which there have been 50 books written.

00:19:11.540 I mean, you have written a great book on this, maybe one or two others.

00:19:15.460 But most people, I don't think, as of right now, summer of 2025, have revisited this in their heads and said, actually, the Warren Commission was fake.

00:19:25.020 Like, that's not.

00:19:25.840 That hasn't happened.

00:19:26.260 Absolutely.

00:19:26.660 Right.

00:19:27.380 Okay.

00:19:28.500 So you have now the claim by the FBI that McVeigh did this himself.

00:19:36.040 He may have had, he had help from this friend of his called Terry Nichols, who is to this day still in prison serving life.

00:19:43.020 But he was not in Oklahoma City that day, is my understanding, correct?

00:19:47.520 Correct.

00:19:48.260 Right.

00:19:48.640 He was in Kansas.

00:19:49.860 He was in Kansas.

00:19:50.580 So they're saying that Tim McVeigh did the actual bombing totally by himself.

00:19:57.200 Rented the bomb truck in Junction City by himself.

00:20:02.100 Drove to Oklahoma City by himself.

00:20:06.800 Delivered and detonated the bomb by himself.

00:20:11.100 And then escaped by himself.

00:20:12.600 That's the state's case.

00:20:12.700 That's the government's case.

00:20:14.820 And escaped by himself.

00:20:16.760 What do they say his motive was?

00:20:21.020 He was enraged at the government for its overreach at Waco, which was the government assault on the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas.

00:20:39.900 Two years before.

00:20:40.500 To the day, to the day, April 19, 1993, was the FBI, the final assault after an 80-some day standoff.

00:20:54.420 Two years before Oklahoma City bombing.

00:20:58.100 That was where Janet Reno killed all those kids. 0.99

00:21:01.060 Yes.

00:21:02.300 There were children, there were heavy casualties for children as well as adults.

00:21:07.200 And they said Tim McVeigh was so mad about that that he decided to bomb the federal building in Oklahoma City.

00:21:15.720 Any indication as to why Oklahoma City?

00:21:19.840 Well, Oklahoma City was central to an anti-government movement in the Midwest.

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00:23:03.380 So the FBI backs off of its claim and then completely erases its claim that there was a second perpetrator involved working with Tim McVeigh.

00:23:14.680 How hard did they look for John Doe No. 2?

00:23:17.920 Well, it was a global manhunt.

00:23:21.080 $2 million reward offered.

00:23:24.680 And all over America, people were being stopped in the street, detained, in a few instances arrested.

00:23:37.640 So they were looking hard for a month.

00:23:41.940 Who was Tim McVeigh exactly?

00:23:44.860 Timothy McVeigh.

00:23:45.540 Timothy McVeigh was a 26-year-old bronze star ex-soldier.

00:23:54.680 From the desert storm operation in Iraq.

00:24:03.300 And he had come back home in 1992.

00:24:09.560 This was three years before the bombing.

00:24:12.200 And kind of kicked around his home, the home where he grew up in upstate New York.

00:24:22.420 Had a couple of jobs.

00:24:24.680 Security jobs, security work.

00:24:31.740 But never really gripped into a future after the Army.

00:24:38.340 There's a story about he was a great soldier.

00:24:44.680 An intense, passionate soldier.

00:24:47.300 And he was offered a tryout for special forces at the end of his tour.

00:24:56.600 And he had developed blisters on his feet, so the story went.

00:25:05.100 And couldn't make the physical part of the tryout.

00:25:11.000 So he washed out of special forces.

00:25:17.360 And that had been his dream.

00:25:18.800 That's where he always saw himself.

00:25:21.620 So when he came back home, security guard work wasn't satisfying.

00:25:26.880 He was living with his dad.

00:25:31.580 And he was pretty aimless at the time.

00:25:37.220 So how did he get from being an unemployed security guard, Bronze Star winning veteran, living with his dad in upstate New York, to blowing up a federal building in Oklahoma City?

00:25:48.840 Yeah, that was a really curious passage.

00:25:52.080 He became very political.

00:25:56.020 And he headed south to Florida and hooked up with one of the kind of mysterious connections that

00:26:08.600 we know about in the next couple of years of his life, a retired gun dealer named Roger Moore.

00:26:18.240 And he basically went on the gun show circuit.

00:26:22.040 He carried with him copies of the Turner Diaries, which is this anti-Semitic, apocalyptic novel that he was very much, and not just anti-Semitic, but anti-government.

00:26:48.900 It was just basically the story of an insurrection.

00:26:53.760 And he would take this with him to gun shows and try to, you know, sell it or convince people to read it.

00:27:04.680 He was trying to convince all his friends to read the Turner Diaries.

00:27:10.220 And he just floated around it in without knowing what really was going on in Timothy McVeigh's life for the two years that led up to the bombing.

00:27:23.100 It's really a puzzle.

00:27:26.460 And he just, he lived this road warrior life, staying in motels, unexplained.

00:27:34.120 And I've heard somebody account for, like, it would have cost someone in those dollars, in those days, like $50,000 to live this way.

00:27:47.540 But we only know of him having earned like $5,000.

00:27:52.180 So where did he get the rest of the money?

00:27:53.980 He was going to be unaccounted for.

00:27:55.500 But he just, he drove, you know, thousands of miles, stayed in motels, hit gun show circuits, and eventually, two years later, plus some months, bombed the federal building.

00:28:14.580 So we know at the time, so the government had committed a number of, a couple at least, of high-profile massacres of conservative Christian white people, one at Ruby Ridge and one at Waco.

00:28:29.480 And so they were, as I recall, they were very concerned about backlash from conservative Christian white Americans becoming radicalized white supremacists, you know, Nazis, you know, whatever that means.

00:28:43.900 But, like, radical anti-government white people, that was the threat. 0.75

00:28:48.880 Yes.

00:28:49.340 In their view, in the Clinton years, the first Clinton term.

00:28:53.780 And so they were trying to neutralize that threat by infiltrating those groups with federal informants.

00:28:59.500 Correct.

00:29:00.400 But at scale, like, they were really working on this.

00:29:02.960 Can we say that for certain?

00:29:04.540 Yes.

00:29:05.180 Yeah.

00:29:05.400 So Tim McVeigh going to all these different, you know, basically hanging around with all these people, joining the circuit of, you know, this political philosophy based in gun shows and no visible means to support.

00:29:23.600 We can assume he was a federal informant, it sounds like, or may have been a federal informant.

00:29:29.900 There's never been any record.

00:29:37.020 I think that would be perhaps a bit of a reach to assume he was a federal informant.

00:29:44.720 It was, at least to my understanding, and there is going to be some evidence about that.

00:29:50.880 But I think making that connection, the gun shows were a hangout.

00:29:57.000 Right.

00:29:57.200 You know, if you were lost and male and ex-military and seeking direction, you know, as McVeigh's attorney would argue in his defense at trial,

00:30:12.580 there were a lot of people who shared his beliefs about what had happened at Waco, who were seeking others, seeking a clubhouse, if you were, Will.

00:30:26.360 And the gun show circuit was that place.

00:30:29.420 So I think it could have been just he was searching.

00:30:39.840 Oh, I'm sure.

00:30:42.140 But that world would have been crawling with informants.

00:30:45.340 Yes.

00:30:46.280 Absolutely.

00:30:46.800 Crawling with informants and crawling with law enforcement.

00:30:52.280 Yeah.

00:30:53.200 I mean, that's what happened to Randy Weaver, of course.

00:30:55.820 Yes.

00:30:56.380 His world was crawling with law enforcement because, again, the FBI had identified that world, that brand of politics as the main threat.

00:31:04.180 Randy Weaver sold a shotgun that was like too short or something and they wanted to.

00:31:08.200 Well, he was being pressed to be an informant and refused.

00:31:13.900 Yeah.

00:31:14.500 And so they murdered his wife and son.

00:31:18.300 So, but back to Tim McVeigh.

00:31:20.740 So we don't really know what he was doing during that time, it sounds like, with any great specificity.

00:31:24.900 That's right.

00:31:26.200 Who was Terry Nichols?

00:31:28.840 Terry Nichols was an army buddy of McVeigh's.

00:31:32.940 And he was older.

00:31:36.760 He went into the service older.

00:31:38.640 He was perhaps 10 years older than McVeigh or five.

00:31:46.080 But they had served together.

00:31:48.780 They liked each other.

00:31:51.400 And in fact, with a third soldier named Michael Fortier, who will be part of this story, the three of them served together.

00:32:01.720 And after McVeigh, Nichols left the service first and then McVeigh and they hooked up again together to be in the army surplus business.

00:32:17.960 So that was how they came back together after the army.

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00:33:37.120 So the government alleges that the two of them, maybe with 40-A, hatched this plot to bomb the Murrow building.

00:33:47.500 How'd they pay for it?

00:33:48.600 There's a lot that's missing about the money and nobody ever, the investigation never succeeded in following the money in this enormous terrorist attack, which is just remains an unsolved mystery.

00:34:08.160 But because they were both virtually penniless and Terry Nichols had run up credit card debt and tried to declare himself exempt from, tried to give up his citizenship at one point and tried to say none of his credit card debt was valid.

00:34:31.400 But they were scrambling to put together a business because they both were familiar with how the army surplus business works.

00:34:42.460 So that was their plan.

00:34:44.580 That was their hope.

00:34:45.280 They had no other, so far as we know, they had no other source of income.

00:34:49.200 That's correct.

00:34:49.920 Now we're getting into the, again, stuff that doesn't make any sense because I think, not to get ahead in the story, but I think Terry Nichols made a number of trips to the Philippines, didn't he?

00:35:02.200 He did.

00:35:02.980 He traveled.

00:35:04.020 That's not as long a flight as you can take in the world.

00:35:07.280 How do you pay for that?

00:35:08.460 No one knows.

00:35:09.480 What was he doing there?

00:35:11.540 No one knows for sure.

00:35:13.740 Okay.

00:35:14.180 He married a Filipino, but he didn't take her on all of these trips.

00:35:25.000 He, the people who investigated later found out that he reportedly took a bomb building book on one of these trips,

00:35:37.200 that a Filipino terrorist turned government informant said that Terry Nichols attended a meeting on one of the islands there with Ramzi Youssef,

00:35:49.840 who was plotting a terrorist attack during Nichols' last trip to the Philippines, which was in late 1994.

00:35:59.280 That would have been months before the Oklahoma City bombing.

00:36:02.960 So, no good answers for how these guys...

00:36:07.040 Ramzi Youssef is a World Trade Center bomber.

00:36:09.720 93.

00:36:10.840 Correct.

00:36:11.480 The first World Trade Center bombing.

00:36:12.740 That's correct.

00:36:15.080 Do you think it's possible that Ramzi Youssef met Terry Nichols?

00:36:23.220 Well, that's what this terrorist said, claimed, had happened.

00:36:28.880 Ramzi Well, that would just be giving the Earth's population outside the bounds of probability, correct?

00:36:36.200 Ramzi Correct. 0.96

00:36:36.820 Ramzi Right.

00:36:37.060 Ramzi Right.

00:36:37.620 Ramzi Correct. 0.96

00:36:38.060 Ramzi Yeah.

00:36:38.260 Ramzi And it was also known that at this boarding house where Terry Nichols made many phone calls in Cebu City,

00:36:48.700 it was a hangout for Islamic terrorists. 0.70

00:36:53.180 Ramzi That would cut against the prevailing story, which was that Terry Nichols and Timothy McVeigh were Christian nationalists, white supremacists. 0.98

00:37:19.620 Ramzi It's, you know, why would a white supremacist Christian nationalist be hanging around with Muslim terrorists in Cebu City, Philippines? 0.82

00:37:28.180 Ramzi Good question.

00:37:30.000 Ramzi Well, it's a very obvious question, but it's a question, again, we're getting to the, this is a question that has no answer.

00:37:36.360 Ramzi Yes.

00:37:37.100 Ramzi Terry Nichols is in prison.

00:37:38.780 I believe you've interviewed him.

00:37:40.460 Ramzi I have.

00:37:41.620 Ramzi Has he answered these questions?

00:37:43.180 Ramzi No. 0.94

00:37:43.940 Ramzi No. 0.94

00:37:44.180 Ramzi Terry Nichols, when Representative Dana Rohrabacher on, in Congress, took up this matter and really pressed, Terry Nichols eventually bailed out of a second interview with the congressman.

00:38:03.740 Ramzi Because he said, there is no connection between the Philippines, my travel there, and the bombing.

00:38:13.080 Ramzi So that was, that's Terry Nichols' word on this.

00:38:15.940 Ramzi But Terry Nichols never explained how he afforded to travel as an unemployed person trying to start an army surplus business to the Philippines multiple times or paid for the Ryder truck and ammonium nitrate.

00:38:25.720 Ramzi That is right.

00:38:26.580 Ramzi This just seems, now we're, now we're getting to like bonkers level unanswered questions.

00:38:32.320 Ramzi It's like, what did the feds say about all this in the indictment during the trial?

00:38:36.300 Ramzi Did they ever explain the money?

00:38:38.040 Ramzi No. 0.94

00:38:39.780 Ramzi This trial was basically simplified.

00:38:44.280 Ramzi It was political ideology.

00:38:47.000 Ramzi It was Timothy McVeigh, the mastermind.

00:38:50.480 Ramzi It was McVeigh built the bomb, delivered the bomb.

00:38:58.420 Ramzi And that was the end of the story.

00:39:03.280 Ramzi I don't know why I'm laughing.

00:39:04.660 Ramzi It's, you know, it's, let me just pause and say, parenthetically, if you're just a news, a hapless news consumer, as I was at the time, I was in the news business, but not covering this, just sort of reading the news every day.

00:39:15.920 Ramzi It's crazy what they can exclude from the story without you noticing if the story is big enough, loud enough, salacious enough.

00:39:27.860 Ramzi You don't ask the obvious questions. 0.74

00:39:29.280 Ramzi It's like, how did these two unemployed losers afford this bomb, this truck, this plot? 0.95

00:39:37.020 Ramzi Like, where'd the money come from? 0.97

00:39:38.400 Ramzi It's so true. 0.85

00:39:39.120 Ramzi It is so true. 0.99

00:39:40.020 Ramzi I've never thought about it till right now.

00:39:41.500 Ramzi Okay, so, another dumb question, but what was the point of the bombing exactly in the Feds telling? Like, what did they hope to accomplish by doing this? Did they have a manifesto? Were they starting a group?

00:39:55.520 Ramzi No manifesto. Again, the Feds always pointed to McVeigh and his rage at the federal government, his, you know, his rage at Waco, his rage at the overreach.

00:40:11.500 Ramzi And remember, this was the Oklahoma City Federal Building, where a lot of agencies had their offices, not the FBI, but the ATF, and DEA, and other federal agencies.

00:40:27.460 Ramzi So, that was, you know, the theory, the crime theory here, is that this was Timothy McVeigh's revenge on the federal government for its overreach at Waco.

00:40:42.460 Ramzi Did Timothy McVeigh or Terry Nichols ever explain their motives?

00:40:47.540 Ramzi Terry Nichols basically has always steadfastly said he was the helper here, you know, and got in way over his head and had done things.

00:41:04.340 Ramzi I mean, Timothy McVeigh made sure that early on that Terry Nichols helped him rob a quarry in Kansas of blasting cabs.

00:41:13.500 Ramzi So, he was, you know, he was in up to his neck, he would say, you know, before he even knew it.

00:41:19.920 Ramzi And then he was helpless to say no to McVeigh.

00:41:24.080 Ramzi As to McVeigh, he, he, his story is the same as the government's, that, you know, it's the, it's revenge over Waco.

00:41:35.940 Ramzi And the government's overreach and the government's, um, attempt to take, you know, guns away from people who are entitled to, to hold them.

00:41:48.060 Ramzi So, they steal the blasting caps from a quarry. 1.00

00:41:51.580 Ramzi They assemble an enormous amount of ammonium nitrate fertilizer from ag companies.

00:41:56.820 Ramzi They, they spend many months apparently planning this.

00:42:01.060 Ramzi That's the government never offers or even suggests an accounting of how much they spent doing this. Is that correct?

00:42:09.220 Ramzi That's correct.

00:42:09.820 Ramzi They never tell us that.

00:42:10.860 Ramzi And they basically, basically, they're saying that Timothy McVeigh did it with the help of Terry Nichols.

00:42:16.920 Ramzi But by the time the trial comes around, there's, there's no hint of a, of an accomplice of a John Doe number two, right?

00:42:24.740 Ramzi That's right.

00:42:26.500 Ramzi Right. So by this point, are you starting to ask yourself,

00:42:30.260 Ramzi Well, maybe I imagined John Doe number two.

00:42:32.680 Ramzi Well, there's another, there, in that first year, Tucker, um, there were some other really strong indications that John Doe two was real.

00:42:47.100 Ramzi One of them, an extraordinary story is, as you know, grand jury proceedings are completely closed, sealed,

00:42:59.600 Ramzi And off the record.

00:43:01.020 Ramzi Inside the McVeigh grand jury, there was a grand juror named Hoppy Heidelberg, who was so upset about the way the federal prosecutors were running, managing, steering, and in his opinion, rigging that grand jury, that he went rogue.

00:43:25.240 Ramzi He began complaining to his congressman about the fact that the government was hiding evidence of John Doe two.

00:43:36.720 Ramzi He became an unnamed source for the Daily Oklahoma newspaper, leaking what was going on inside the grand jury.

00:43:51.020 Ramzi And eventually, after the indictment came down in August of 1995, a couple of months later, he went fully public.

00:44:05.600 Ramzi Heidelberg wrote, well, he gave an interview, he broke rules, which could get him kicked off this grand jury.

00:44:15.380 Ramzi But he also wrote the judge, the federal judge who was overseeing this grand jury, a letter in which he said, the federal government is hiding the identity of John Doe two.

00:44:29.900 Ramzi Heidelberg The victims of this crime deserve to know who committed this crime, who was really behind this crime, and it isn't happening, and actually petitioned the judge to impanel a new jury.

00:44:46.900 Ramzi Heidelberg The judge wrote back in three or four sentences, kicking Hoppy Heidelberg off the jury and warning him that if he broke the grand jury rules, he could go to jail.

00:45:05.820 Ramzi So, there were more details.

00:45:09.940 Ramzi Who was the judge?

00:45:10.780 Ramzi The judge, his name was David Russell.

00:45:16.900 Ramzi Heidelberg And he was not the judge of the McVeigh trial.

00:45:24.760 Ramzi Right.

00:45:24.960 Ramzi Heidelberg Heidelberg Heidelberg Heidelberg Heidelberg, who was the grand juror, said he believed the government knew, A, that John Doe number two existed, and B, knew his identity?

00:45:43.260 Ramzi Not that he knew his identity, but knew he existed.

00:45:46.260 Ramzi Heidelberg And Hoppy Heidelberg told the, in the interview with the journalist that he gave, which he was absolutely a violation of the grand jury rules, but he was going rogue.

00:45:58.520 Ramzi Heidelberg Heidelberg, he said, for him, the red flag of this whole scenario was the story the government put out about the soldier from, who supposedly, innocently.

00:46:16.520 Ramzi Heidelberg Happened to be at the rider truck rental place.

00:46:21.540 Ramzi Exactly.

00:46:22.220 Ramzi Yeah, with a buddy.

00:46:23.220 Ramzi Heidelberg Heidelberg said, this was the red flag to me.

00:46:27.660 That soldier didn't look anything like the John Doe two sketch, and this was a coverup.

00:46:35.960 Ramzi So, one of the reasons that we know that everything you're saying is right, that it was a coverup, that the government knew that there was a second accomplice, terrorist, John Doe number two is real, is because of an incredible story that I had never heard before until someone I know told me it,

00:47:00.680 Ramzi Which is why I wanted to do this interview with you, about a man called Kenneth Trentadu, if I'm pronouncing his name correctly.

00:47:06.140 Ramzi Yes.

00:47:07.020 Ramzi A construction worker from San Diego, and this is, this is all real. This story may be more than any other I've heard in a long time makes me think, you know, we have serious problems with our government. This is evil. So, who was Kenneth Trentadu?

00:47:22.960 Ramzi Kenneth Trentadu was a construction worker who had, in the past, been, he basically had a drug problem, came back from the army in the Vietnam War era, addicted to heroin.

00:47:48.020 Ramzi He turned to robbery to feed his habit, and eventually got arrested for bank robbery. Went to prison, did his time, came out. 0.79

00:48:04.520 Ramzi He had a falling out with his probation officer over whether it was okay for him to drink a beer after a day of hard work.

00:48:19.060 Ramzi He was a construction worker.

00:48:20.080 Ramzi He was a construction worker. The probation officer said, the parole officer said no. It was a red line. And Kenneth Trentadu walked away, stopped making his appointed visits.

00:48:34.520 Ramzi He was a parole officer with the parole officer. Nobody was looking very hard for him for six or seven years. When?

00:48:41.560 Ramzi What was he doing during that period?

00:48:42.920 Ramzi He was working construction, putting his life back together. He married his long-term girlfriend. And in 1995, they were expecting their first child.

00:48:56.120 Ramzi He was Hispanic. They had, he had, was coming back across the border. 1.00

00:49:03.720 Ramzi Was he involved in, that we know of crime of any kind, or was he just a construction worker?

00:49:09.000 Ramzi Just a construction worker. He had totally put his life back together. He was totally on the up and up.

00:49:14.520 Ramzi And he, he, he crossed the border from Mexico where he had been visiting his wife's family. And he was arrested.

00:49:26.120 Ramzi For the old parole violation.

00:49:28.280 Ramzi Okay. So they just put his name into the computer and bam, there was a warrant for the guy and they arrest him.

00:49:32.840 Ramzi Yes.

00:49:33.240 Ramzi This is Sandy, the San Ysidro border crossing in San Diego.

00:49:36.680 Ramzi Yes.

00:49:37.240 Ramzi Across from Tijuana. Yeah. 0.92

00:49:38.760 Ramzi Yep.

00:49:39.880 Ramzi So then when it's okay, so he goes to jail on a parole violation.

00:49:44.040 Ramzi Now a very, again, inexplicable chain of events occurs.

00:49:53.560 Ramzi I'm sorry, when is this?

00:49:55.560 Ramzi This is June of 1995. So two months after the Oklahoma City bombing. This is the two months in

00:50:06.840 which this manhunt for John Doe II has been most active. It is now in mid-June at almost exactly the

00:50:16.840 the same moment that the government is beginning to back away from the John Doe II story and support this

00:50:27.240 innocent soldier mistaken identity story. It's almost exactly that moment that Kenneth Trinidue is arrested.

00:50:36.680 Ramzi He is a dead ringer lookalike for the John Doe II poster. He's driving the brown truck that 0.91

00:50:49.960 John Doe II may have driven. He's got the John Doe, he's got the tattoo on his left arm, the John Doe II.

00:50:57.960 Ramzi He looks like that guy.

00:50:59.560 Ramzi Yes.

00:50:59.960 Ramzi Okay. Is there any indication that he was that guy?

00:51:04.760 Ramzi There, there, there come to be some strong indications as

00:51:11.240 the investigation unfolds. But at that moment, no. And he, he wasn't that guy.

00:51:20.760 Ramzi But at some point, the authorities are holding this guy on a completely unrelated charge.

00:51:26.200 And somebody says, notices internally, wait a second, this guy looks a lot like the John Doe,

00:51:31.080 John Doe, number two, one imposter. 0.53

00:51:32.680 Ramzi Well, that's what we assume happened.

00:51:37.080 But, but what is known to have happened, and what is the remarkable chain of events that happened,

00:51:44.120 is that Kenneth Trinidue, now in jail, awaiting minor penalty for the probation violation,

00:51:56.200 is suddenly moved from San Diego. This is two months later, he chills in custody for two months.

00:52:07.480 And, and then he is suddenly moved to Oklahoma City, 1300 miles away.

00:52:14.280 Ramzi So he's busted just randomly coming across the border from Tijuana, visiting his in-laws.

00:52:20.760 Ramzi And then two months later, he's on a plane on some like federal marshal plane to Oklahoma City.

00:52:27.080 Ramzi That's exactly what happened. And the family couldn't figure out why they were concerned and

00:52:34.120 suspicious. His crimes were all in California, his probation officer was in California, who presumably

00:52:43.640 would have been a witness at that hearing. But Kenneth Trinidue is now in Oklahoma City.

00:52:49.560 Ramzi And just to complete the timing, this is

00:52:56.280 Ramzi Approximately one week after the indictment came down in the McVeigh case. So he's

00:53:09.560 So clearly the feds think he could be John Doe number two. I mean, I think we can assume that 0.99

00:53:14.360 that's a fair assumption. It doesn't make any sense. Otherwise, he looks just like the one imposter.

00:53:18.680 They move him to Oklahoma City. They think that this could be John Doe number two.

00:53:22.920 Ramzi That's a reasonable assumption.

00:53:24.760 Ramzi I can't think of another. What happens to Kenneth Trinidue?

00:53:28.040 Ramzi Two days after he is moved at three o'clock in the morning.

00:53:35.720 Ramzi Well, first he's moved to a special housing unit for reasons unknown, but he is in solitary

00:53:47.640 confinement in a suicide proof cell. Two days after he arrives in Oklahoma City, Kenneth Trinidue

00:53:58.120 Ramzi At three in the morning is found tortured, bloodied, and supposedly hanging in his cell.

00:54:11.240 Ramzi His suicide proof cell. He's dead. He's dead two days after getting to Oklahoma City.

00:54:16.520 Ramzi Okay. So it sounds like he was murdered.

00:54:21.960 Ramzi Yes, it does.

00:54:23.880 Ramzi What was the condition of his body?

00:54:26.120 Ramzi Brutalized. Brutalized. Bloody stun gun like injuries on his feet, bruises, lacerations,

00:54:40.440 all the signs of a terrible beating.

00:54:42.520 Ramzi So he's beaten to death by the feds, it sounds like.

00:54:45.560 Ramzi It does. However, if I could just complete the picture here of how the family found out

00:54:57.000 about this death, it came as a phone call to Mrs. Trinidue, his mother. And it was the associate

00:55:10.440 warden to tell her that her son, Vance Paul Brockway had killed himself. Well, this wasn't

00:55:21.960 even a name she knew. She said, I don't have a son named Vance Paul Brockway. I do have a son named

00:55:28.440 Kenneth Trinidue who is in your facility. Once sorted out, the warden reinforced that this was her son.

00:55:39.880 He was dead. He killed himself and made a very bizarre offer of free cremation.

00:55:48.360 And Kenneth Trinidue's mother said, well, I will have to speak to his wife about that. And the

00:55:59.960 warden said, oh, well, he doesn't have a wife. And Mrs. Trinidue said, yes, he definitely has a wife.

00:56:07.320 And he has a brother too, who's a lawyer. So eventually, this is how Jesse Trinidue comes

00:56:16.600 in to the picture.

00:56:18.280 Kenneth's brother.

00:56:19.080 The lawyer.

00:56:20.040 Who unfortunately for the feds is a high performing, high intelligence, very motivated

00:56:25.000 lawyer who wants to find out what happened to his brother.

00:56:27.720 Absolutely. And this is the X factor in this whole story because

00:56:32.280 99% of the prisoners who run afoul either of each other or the institution do not have families

00:56:42.840 with high powered lawyers who are intent on finding out what happened.

00:56:48.440 And to your question, Tucker, about what was the state of the body when Jesse called the prison

00:56:55.880 to find out himself what had happened, one of the first things he said was, do not cremate the body,

00:57:07.560 send it home, send Kenneth home for burial. When the casket arrived several days later,

00:57:16.440 and the family had the funeral home take the coroner's makeup off Kenneth,

00:57:25.000 that's when they found these injuries. They were concealed under heavy makeup. And that's when

00:57:35.960 the family had to see this for the first time. His throat was slashed, the stun gun-like burns on his

00:57:46.040 feet, the bruising, the lacerations, they discovered it in the funeral home.

00:57:53.240 And Jesse being a lawyer, hard as that had to have been, took photographs and videotape of the body

00:58:05.960 for evidence.

00:58:06.680 It's very obvious it wasn't a suicide.

00:58:11.960 Very obvious.

00:58:12.840 So it sounds like what happened was, it was a case of mistaken identity.

00:58:19.560 And this guy just got swept into this hysteria, into an FBI investigation, and the feds beat him

00:58:27.560 beat him to death, maybe accidentally, who knows, during questioning, and then tried to cover it up.

00:58:33.240 You think that's what happened?

00:58:35.160 I think that's a reasonable assumption.

00:58:37.000 Do you think there's any chance he was John Doe No. 2?

00:58:41.720 No.

00:58:42.440 No. No, it sounds like.

00:58:44.440 So this sets, really the reason that most people know about this story is because of his brother,

00:58:52.840 Jesse Trenadue, who just launches into like a multi-year crusade to bring justice.

00:58:59.080 Absolutely.

00:58:59.480 Right.

00:59:01.160 And he's the reason there was a FOIA filed to get the videotape of the actual bombings.

00:59:08.920 We could find out who was in the truck with Tim McVeigh.

00:59:11.080 Is that correct?

00:59:11.640 Exactly.

00:59:13.000 And how long has that been ongoing?

00:59:14.440 That has been ongoing.

00:59:20.520 The FOIA was filed in 2008.

00:59:24.680 It went all the way to trial in 2014.

00:59:30.680 The trial was fully finished until its star witness, an FBI whistleblower, we haven't talked

00:59:41.240 about him yet, but bailed out of the trial leading to a long and still ongoing

00:59:53.720 conflict over Jesse's allegation of witness tampering against the FBI.

01:00:01.240 So bottom line, in 30 years, despite lawsuits, a trial, the FBI, the federal government has

01:00:09.960 never produced this videotape.

01:00:12.200 That's correct.

01:00:13.640 And they're now claiming they just don't have it somehow.

01:00:16.680 Right.

01:00:17.280 Yeah, they just don't have it.

01:00:18.120 Right.

01:00:18.520 Right, yeah.

01:00:19.240 The central piece of evidence in the biggest terror attack, they just don't have it.

01:00:24.600 Just like they don't actually have the original moon landing footage.

01:00:27.560 They just taped over it because they needed the Betamax tapes.

01:00:30.200 They're just out of space.

01:00:31.800 Yeah.

01:00:32.120 You wonder how, like, why not try harder with the lies?

01:00:35.080 Do you ever wonder about that?

01:00:36.920 If you're going to lie, like, at least make them inventive so you don't patronize the person

01:00:40.440 you're lying to.

01:00:42.120 Absolutely.

01:00:42.920 Yeah.

01:00:45.400 Wow.

01:00:47.720 Who do you think John Doe number two was?

01:00:51.160 I believe John Doe number two was one of the neo-Nazi bank robbers that Timothy McVeigh was

01:01:07.640 associated with, that the FBI was chasing him for from the very beginning, though somewhat off

01:01:16.360 the books.

01:01:16.840 They weren't telling the public they were looking for this neo-Nazi bank robbery gang,

01:01:22.120 but they were looking at them.

01:01:23.320 They, these investigations were connected.

01:01:26.840 The, they didn't know who had been robbing.

01:01:30.760 The bank robbers, to an earlier point of yours, Tucker, about following the money,

01:01:36.760 these, the Aryan Republican army, also known as the Midwest bank robbers to the FBI, robbed

01:01:46.120 $250,000 from 22 banks in 1994, 95, that would be roughly twice that much in today's dollars.

01:02:00.120 None of the money was ever found by the FBI.

01:02:05.080 Once they arrested these bank robbers and they got them, you know, deposed them, they still

01:02:19.720 didn't learn where the money went.

01:02:23.640 But the, one of the leaders of the bank robbery gang did say that he had contributed heavily to

01:02:31.240 white power causes. 0.65

01:02:32.760 So this was, um, a heavy duty operation and they were intending to overthrow, to, to, to have an

01:02:43.160 insurrection.

01:02:43.880 That was their intent.

01:02:45.080 So they were, they were arrested basically in early 1996, uh, 96, but no one, no one ever

01:02:55.720 connected the dots back to.

01:02:57.640 Well, I'm a little confused or even more confused because white supremacists, whatever those are,

01:03:05.240 were the number one priority of the FBI have been for decades, decades and decades. 0.91

01:03:09.160 They hate them on many levels.

01:03:10.360 And so you're saying that John Doe number two was one of these guys, one of these neo-Nazi

01:03:16.520 types, but they just sort of stopped looking for him and they don't care enough to keep

01:03:21.560 the investigation going into who this person was.

01:03:24.120 Yeah, it just, it doesn't, uh, it doesn't stack.

01:03:29.880 I agree.

01:03:30.520 And, um, um, but there, there has been a concerted effort to basically wind down the various tentacles

01:03:45.080 of this investigation rather than keeping them going.

01:03:48.360 I would, I would say that's fair.

01:03:50.040 So from spending my life in DC, I know that when investigations pull back before achieving

01:03:56.200 their goal, it's a hundred percent of the time because the investigation is revealing

01:04:00.600 wrongdoing on the part of the government.

01:04:03.560 Yes.

01:04:04.280 I mean, that, I mean, that's why, that's why they haven't released the tapes from January

01:04:08.840 6th and never will, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

01:04:12.040 Um, so what do you think the government's wrongdoing in this case might've been?

01:04:18.120 Well, here, and, and just to backtrack a moment, you asked me, who do I think it was?

01:04:26.120 I'm, there are, the names are known of this group of, you know, five or six members of

01:04:35.720 the Aryan Republican army.

01:04:37.320 They're well known.

01:04:38.200 I, one of the most remarkable moments of this, the Jesse Trinidou investigation comes in,

01:04:49.160 uh, well, it begins in 2001.

01:04:52.480 And if this, if this is solved, it will be partly owing to Timothy McVeigh, who sent Jesse

01:05:02.320 Trinidou, who, who McVeigh himself was, uh, engrossed in the Kenneth Trinidou murder, because

01:05:11.920 of course, this was a cause celeb in federal prison, right?

01:05:16.400 Um, this is every prisoner's worst nightmare.

01:05:19.840 And the prison slang for it came to be getting Trinidou'd.

01:05:26.380 That's when the SWAT team comes into your cell in the middle of the night and brutalizes you

01:05:33.260 and kills you. 0.98

01:05:34.300 So that is what is understood in prison as getting Trinidou'd.

01:05:40.060 Timothy McVeigh and hit from his prison wrote letters to a journalist about the Trinidou case.

01:05:47.980 And so he was obviously interested in it.

01:05:51.580 A few years later, he actually met up with a prisoner who has played a key role in Jesse's

01:06:02.540 case, who landed on death row with Timothy McVeigh and interviewed him for a book that he published

01:06:11.260 from death row.

01:06:12.220 So, but the part of the story that's relevant here is that Timothy McVeigh in 2001 asked this

01:06:22.760 death row prisoner who he knew, knew Jesse, please tell Jesse Trinidou, this is what happened

01:06:30.560 to Kenneth Trinidou.

01:06:32.900 The FBI mistook him for Richard Guthrie.

01:06:37.820 Richard Guthrie was the co-leader of the Aryan Republican Army Gang.

01:06:45.380 So that would be one answer.

01:06:49.200 Did they look alike, Guthrie and Finidou?

01:06:51.280 Yes, dead ringer look alike.

01:06:52.780 So what happened in Guthrie?

01:06:55.160 Guthrie amazingly wound up dead in his federal prison cell.

01:07:04.380 He was prisoner number two.

01:07:07.760 It was days after, days before he was going to give testimony in another of the bank robbers'

01:07:19.520 trials.

01:07:20.300 It was shortly after he unloaded everything he knew about the insurrection they were planning

01:07:28.880 to the federal prosecutors.

01:07:30.880 So he had, and he told his family that he was looking forward to the future.

01:07:36.820 He was going to give a, an interview reportedly to the LA Times.

01:07:42.660 He said he had, he said he had written a book and he was writing a tell-all and all of a sudden

01:07:50.840 from his jail cell in Kentucky, he wound up hanging.

01:07:59.120 So he's the second hanging, very suspicious hanging death of the second federal prisoner in this

01:08:10.440 story.

01:08:11.160 And there is a third, by the way.

01:08:13.260 Can we just pause on Guthrie for a second?

01:08:16.200 It sounds like you don't believe that he killed himself.

01:08:21.600 Why would he have been killed?

01:08:23.300 I mean, the clear motive would be his former compatriots who were mad about his upcoming

01:08:26.800 testimony.

01:08:27.240 Well, he was a federal, high value federal prisoner.

01:08:33.060 He was under the watch of the United States Marshal Service before he and his compatriots

01:08:40.180 went to trial.

01:08:41.980 So it's hard to imagine.

01:08:43.740 And he too was in solitary confinement.

01:08:46.940 So it's hard to imagine.

01:08:48.840 And reportedly the, the FBI knew, was threatening Richard Guthrie with charging him in the bombing.

01:09:01.780 So they were reportedly very close, either, either knew or were close to knowing his role

01:09:10.320 in the bombing.

01:09:11.140 Do you, I mean, based on your reporting, do you think he was John Doe number two?

01:09:17.120 I think, based on my reporting, I think it's either him or another member of the gang who

01:09:26.440 also is a lookalike for, I mean, look, we know how these composite sketches goes.

01:09:34.280 They are approximations.

01:09:35.940 Both Guthrie.

01:09:37.580 This looks like Hollywood thug.

01:09:40.480 But you can see a bodybuilder type in this, you know, you, you, you get, so when you asked

01:09:50.260 me, do I think it was Richard Guthrie?

01:09:52.240 I believe that witnesses on the ground that morning saw the men who were with Timothy McVeigh.

01:10:01.600 I believe, based on my reporting, that those men were members of the Aryan Republican Army.

01:10:08.860 So I believe Richard Guthrie was there.

01:10:12.200 But there was another member of that gang who was reported to be a lookalike for John Doe

01:10:22.240 to as much of a lookalike as Richard Guthrie.

01:10:29.120 So it could have been him.

01:10:30.620 But again, I just refer back to the government's behavior.

01:10:34.180 They have been intentionally opaque on this subject.

01:10:37.000 They've lied about it.

01:10:38.000 I understand they killed a guy in a case of mistaken identity.

01:10:41.080 I get why they wouldn't want to cop to that.

01:10:44.360 I understand that.

01:10:46.220 But why the lack of transparency otherwise?

01:10:48.900 I just don't understand why it wouldn't, like, what are they, what are they hiding?

01:10:54.780 Well, they're-

01:10:55.780 Pretending there was not a John Doe number two.

01:10:57.380 It's a good question.

01:10:58.360 And my reporting, if I could take us on one quick detail, because it is so incredible here

01:11:09.240 that there is a third prisoner in this situation who winds up in the same death scenario as Richard

01:11:20.980 Guthrie and Kenneth Trinidue, and that is a man named Alden Gillis Baker.

01:11:29.060 Baker came forward to Jesse two or three years after Kenneth's death.

01:11:37.600 Jesse mounted a huge wrongful death lawsuit against the federal government, which went to trial in the year 2000.

01:11:47.040 And he was, his family was awarded a million dollars by, it's a civil trial, by a judge who couldn't, didn't, wouldn't call this a murder.

01:12:02.600 He caught, he, again, lack of evidence, but he awarded the money based on the abuses against the family after the death of, the way that the whole death thing was handled.

01:12:22.880 But Kenneth, but Alden Gillis Baker, while Jesse was preparing for that lawsuit, came forward.

01:12:33.440 He was now in a different prison.

01:12:35.480 He was on the cell block with Kenneth Trinidue.

01:12:38.820 And who is he?

01:12:39.380 Was he an Asian guy too? 0.96

01:12:41.040 He, no, he's, he was a suspected serial killer, psychotic criminal.

01:12:47.600 He had been in the federal prison system for seven or eight years.

01:12:53.720 So he's a dangerous guy.

01:12:58.340 He, he came forward to Jesse and said after, well, that he said he had witnessed the murder.

01:13:06.280 He said, he described the SWAT team coming into Kenneth's cell.

01:13:12.420 He said his death lasted about 30 minutes.

01:13:18.200 He heard, you know, struggling, shouting, moaning, and then nothing.

01:13:24.900 And they left the cell, the SWAT team returning some hours later, said Baker to, and he could hear, he didn't see what happened, but he was hearing.

01:13:37.820 And he heard them tearing up bedsheets, which he took to be, they were basically staging a hanging.

01:13:48.780 Baker came forward to Jesse a couple of years after, while he was preparing for the wrongful death trial.

01:13:59.040 And he was in a new facility.

01:14:00.800 He said, they loaded me up on drugs and shipped me to a new facility.

01:14:07.080 I want to tell what happened.

01:14:09.840 And Jesse's, as part of the wrongful death trial, took a deposition of Alden Gillis-Baker with what I've told you here from, from his account.

01:14:22.840 And he would have been a star witness at this trial.

01:14:30.440 He started receiving threats.

01:14:33.900 He was in a California prison.

01:14:35.700 He started receiving threats from fellow inmates.

01:14:38.980 He begged the prosecutor to protect him.

01:14:43.740 And the prosecutor refused.

01:14:47.760 And Jesse petitioned the court for a protective order for Alden Baker, which was never answered.

01:14:59.400 And in August of 2000, two months before the trial opened, Alden Gillis-Baker was found hanged in his cell.

01:15:12.240 So, that's how Jesse lost the star witness to Kenneth Trinidue's murder.

01:15:20.840 That's unbelievable.

01:15:23.960 Can I just go back to Tim McVeigh for a moment and clear something up that I have read, but I don't know if it's true.

01:15:30.680 So, there was a psychiatrist, a contract employee of the CIA for many decades called Louis Joylyn West, Jolly West, who was, you know, one of the people who conducted experiments with LSD and other drugs on unsuspecting civilians.

01:15:46.460 One of the darkest people in the 20th century American history. 1.00

01:15:50.360 Also, the person who declared Lee Harvey Oswald's assassin, Jack Ruby, mentally ill, visited him in lockup in Dallas, et cetera, et cetera, clearly sent to do that.

01:16:09.700 So, he's a super dark guy.

01:16:12.860 I have read that he visited Tim McVeigh in jail.

01:16:16.220 Is that true?

01:16:17.120 You know, Tucker, I've seen that reference too, but no more than you do I know, I don't know that is true or not.

01:16:26.320 Okay.

01:16:27.080 Because if we ever find out that's true, then it's just, it is worth overthrowing the U.S. government at that point.

01:16:32.340 Because it's just like, they're not even trying to hide it from us.

01:16:37.560 Okay.

01:16:38.060 So, you don't know if that's true.

01:16:39.560 I don't know.

01:16:40.120 So, to your point, and I did take us on that detour, but I think you'll agree it was an amazing detour.

01:16:48.020 A lot of suicides in this case.

01:16:49.500 Yes.

01:16:49.920 Three.

01:16:50.420 A lot of sad people.

01:16:50.880 Three prisoner unexplained deaths, let's say.

01:16:56.280 But you had asked, well.

01:16:59.960 The kind of people who commit violent crimes don't typically kill themselves, I'm just saying.

01:17:02.980 Like, I think there's data on this.

01:17:06.900 You know, the kind of people who kill themselves are like, you know, sad women, accountants whose wives leave them. 0.99

01:17:14.240 That's more the profile. 0.56

01:17:15.560 It's not, you know, bodybuilders who are also rapists. 0.92

01:17:18.140 They kill other people, not themselves.

01:17:20.280 So, it's even more unusual, I think, among that population.

01:17:23.680 Just saying.

01:17:24.940 Right?

01:17:25.340 Absolutely.

01:17:26.960 And we might add, as a curiosity to the Trinidue hanging suicide, hangings are generally bloodless affairs, or nearly so.

01:17:41.120 But the orderly who found Kenneth Trinidue and had to clean up the cell, not found him, was assigned to clean up the cell, described it as a bloodbath.

01:17:51.860 He had to clean up the blood with a mop.

01:17:56.260 Yeah.

01:17:57.660 What do we know about Tim McVeigh's contact with the federal government?

01:18:03.320 Like, he obviously served in the U.S. Army.

01:18:06.720 But I seem to recall a letter that he wrote his sister in which he refers to contact with the intel services.

01:18:14.340 Yes.

01:18:14.940 Yes.

01:18:15.300 And you had, I did lead us astray, and you had asked, you know, what was going on here with McVeigh and the federal government?

01:18:25.340 McVeigh told the story at least three places, one being the letter to the sister.

01:18:34.660 He told the story of, it's a shocking claim, so I'll pause a moment here.

01:18:44.560 But Timothy McVeigh, while on death row, being interviewed by that death row prisoner who I mentioned,

01:18:55.020 Timothy McVeigh claimed that he operated in the Oklahoma City bombing, not as a terrorist, but as an undercover federal operative.

01:19:09.140 That he was basically recruited during his military service in Iraq.

01:19:16.800 He told the story slightly different ways, but to the death row inmate who wrote the memoir and published this story, McVeigh said that he was recruited into an unspecified defense department operation, domestic surveillance operation.

01:19:42.180 He gave, I interviewed three prisoners, that was, you know, once I became involved in this investigation for Jesse's FOIA case, not the videotapes case, but a previous FOIA.

01:19:59.460 I interviewed David Hammer, Terry Nichols, and Peter Langan, who is the co-leader of the Aryan Republican Army.

01:20:11.020 So, but back to what McVeigh told, he told the death row inmate that he was undercover for an unspecified defense department operation.

01:20:26.020 He told Terry Nichols, this is what Nichols told Jesse and me on, in Supermax.

01:20:33.300 He told us that Timothy McVeigh let slip that he was undercover for the FBI.

01:20:46.740 He told his sister that he had been recruited for, he had been recruited during that tryout for the special operations.

01:21:03.300 Essentially, that scenario would be, he didn't wash out of special operations.

01:21:08.940 He basically joined this new unit, but he told her that he was going to be doing domestic operations.

01:21:22.520 And as a matter of fact, in 1998, the New York Times published that letter, not with much context.

01:21:29.340 But yes, McVeigh made these claims after his trial.

01:21:39.400 Never mentioned them at trial.

01:21:41.860 Never mentioned them at trial.

01:21:44.260 No.

01:21:44.420 This is speculation, but what, why would, what would Tim McVeigh, Timothy McVeigh's motive be for, you know, carrying out this terror attack at the behest of the feds?

01:21:58.640 Their motive would be a little bit clearer, which would be like, prove that there really is a domestic terror threat from white right-wingers.

01:22:06.340 That's something they've been working on for a long time.

01:22:09.980 But what would his motive be in Sting's quiet about that?

01:22:14.540 Like, why wouldn't he say, yeah, I was part of this at trial and like, I'm not going to, you know, I'm not going down for this.

01:22:21.660 I was asked to do it.

01:22:22.520 Well, one explanation might be that he became radicalized during, just like a lot of people during Rupee Ridge, Waco, you know, that he was, he was at the, at the point of this operation, deeply conflicted over what it was he was doing.

01:22:47.260 To add one more source.

01:22:49.720 No, that's fair.

01:22:50.460 It radicalizes me hearing about it.

01:22:52.100 Got to be honest, it does.

01:22:53.900 Well, there's one more source, which I haven't seen.

01:22:58.100 This story does have three or four just superb researchers who have dedicated decades to trying to figure out what happened here.

01:23:10.520 And one of them wrote a book.

01:23:13.200 She researched through the Texas, the University of Texas library that has the McVeigh's attorney, Stephen Jones, donated his papers to.

01:23:26.580 And she has uncovered documents from his original attorneys.

01:23:34.800 He was given a public defender, McVeigh was, right away.

01:23:39.620 And they've immediately started trying to get out of that case because they were so conflicted.

01:23:47.360 I mean, their friends had been, you know, injured.

01:23:50.440 The courthouse was damaged.

01:23:52.680 They were freaked out.

01:23:53.980 But he did have a brief period with them until they could find, you know, hand him off to Stephen Jones in which he told them that he had been working.

01:24:07.160 This would have been his first representation to his first lawyer.

01:24:11.480 Before trial, of course.

01:24:11.940 Yeah, and before the preliminary hearing, I mean, within hours and days of the bombing, and he told his first lawyers that he had been a government operative.

01:24:26.500 And he said that he was shocked at the damage done by the bomb as if he had been there to create a demonstration with his truck in the road, not destroy the whole building.

01:24:51.660 I mean, I say as if, I don't know that, but his, what I do know is that he told them he was shocked at the level of damage that was done.

01:25:00.980 Wow.

01:25:02.840 Do you think it's plausible that he was telling the truth?

01:25:07.340 I, well, let's go back to another question of yours, which is, you know, what was going on here?

01:25:15.720 Why, why is the government covering this up?

01:25:19.940 And I can just tell you that it appears, based on other revelations that have come to Jesse Trinidue,

01:25:31.260 because he's been the engine of this investigation, this whole investigation, Jesse,

01:25:36.680 that, you know, there's evidence that the government had Timothy McVeigh under surveillance before this attack.

01:25:59.040 And this evidence comes from an FBI whistleblower.

01:26:07.960 There are a lot of Marines in this story, by the way, and there's a lot of Marines do or die in this story.

01:26:14.940 Jesse being one, and John Matthews, who is this FBI whistleblower, being another.

01:26:22.880 And that, you know, brotherhood kind of clearly motivated Matthews to come forward to Jesse in 2011 in Salt Lake City and tell the story.

01:26:38.580 It's an untold story because it's been suppressed, first, by the defense, by the Justice Department,

01:26:50.120 bearing down on Newsweek magazine, which was going to publish this story,

01:26:55.080 of Matthews' work for the FBI in an undercover program called PATCON, short for Patriot Conspiracy,

01:27:05.980 in the 1990s, before and after, covering before and after the Oklahoma City bombing,

01:27:15.600 which was a sweeping infiltration program.

01:27:21.680 Matthews was a Vietnam vet, went to Nicaragua with the, you know, the Iran-Contra operation,

01:27:33.160 I mean, to train the, and now found himself in PATCON.

01:27:40.140 And it was, as he told Jesse on the phone, much bigger and uglier than you can imagine.

01:27:48.500 And I want to tell you about this.

01:27:49.980 He was alienated by this program because he said it was inciting the violence that it was supposed to be preventing.

01:28:01.500 So he, and he was with PATCON for like eight years.

01:28:05.280 So long answer to your question, what could have been going on here?

01:28:09.640 Matthews believed, so from his knowledge of PATCON, Matthews told Jesse, first, that he believed PATCON was,

01:28:24.480 he believed Oklahoma City was a PATCON operation.

01:28:30.080 He denied working the operation.

01:28:34.020 He was based in Arizona, but Arizona is another lobe of the McVeigh, the run-up to the bombing.

01:28:42.760 McVeigh stayed and lived in Kingman, Oklahoma, Kingman, Arizona, and Michael Fortier lived in Kingman, Arizona.

01:28:51.960 But, but, but back to what John Matthews knew.

01:29:01.440 The whistleblower.

01:29:02.200 The whistleblower and the potential here for the FBI having had McVeigh under surveillance,

01:29:09.680 is that Matthews told Jesse that he saw Timothy McVeigh with another member of this,

01:29:20.660 let's say, at least satellite member of this Aryan Republican Army group,

01:29:26.020 not a member of the gang, but one of them.

01:29:29.260 He saw the McVeigh together with that guy at a military training in San Ceiba, Texas, in 1994.

01:29:42.080 He was working PATCON surveillance at the time.

01:29:47.000 So we know that PATCON surveilled McVeigh months before the bombing.

01:29:56.460 And there are many other...

01:29:58.260 So why didn't they stop it?

01:30:00.860 They, they didn't stop it.

01:30:03.780 They tried to stop it.

01:30:05.720 The feds?

01:30:06.580 Yeah.

01:30:07.660 Yeah.

01:30:08.360 How did they try and stop it?

01:30:09.500 Well, they, all the evidence, the best evidence, I have to just say best evidence,

01:30:17.700 is that they had McVeigh under surveillance.

01:30:23.300 That there was a transponder on the bomb truck.

01:30:29.120 Something happened.

01:30:31.160 There was a transponder on the bomb truck?

01:30:33.180 There's evidence of that, yes.

01:30:36.180 Like a federal transponder?

01:30:37.580 Like they were following him?

01:30:38.820 Yes.

01:30:39.900 Tracking him?

01:30:40.700 Yes.

01:30:40.960 That's best evidence that they, I'm sure the government will say, no, we didn't.

01:30:46.280 But a member of this, I haven't said the words Elohim City, but this is the location where the Aryan Republican Army hung out, hid out in eastern Oklahoma.

01:31:00.640 One of those guys who may very well be, I've given you a lot of names today, Tucker, so I'm trying to winnow the names.

01:31:18.700 But he may well have been another informant.

01:31:25.180 His name is Andreas Strasmeier.

01:31:27.420 He's a German national.

01:31:29.820 He was in the country illegally on an expired visa.

01:31:34.080 He's got a lot of heavy German political pedigree and intelligence training and was out front fomenting this, let's blow up federal buildings out of this enclave called Elohim City in eastern Oklahoma. 0.90

01:31:57.940 After the bombing, he went back to Germany, and since then, he has been, had the odd practice of basically issuing insider knowledge about how the bombing really went down.

01:32:14.380 He was one who said, yes, the truck had a, he seems to know the truck had a transponder on it.

01:32:21.400 He's never been charged?

01:32:22.700 Never been charged.

01:32:23.660 Andreas Strasmeier is in Elohim City, which is where all these Aryan would-be terrorists supposedly are planning the bombing of various federal buildings, including the OKC one. 0.94

01:32:37.460 And the bombing comes off, biggest manhunt in history, and he just goes back to Germany, and he's fine, and no one ever goes after him legally?

01:32:46.480 That's right.

01:32:47.620 How does that work?

01:32:48.300 Imagine how many leads, I think it was, I don't know, 25,000 or something, that the FBI was pursuing during the biggest manhunt in history, and, you know, which led them to, like, elementary school teachers of Timothy McVeigh and others.

01:33:12.700 Right, no, totally.

01:33:13.400 You know, somehow, Andreas Strasmeier was never interviewed, and there are markings, and it can be reasonably assumed that Andreas Strasmeier may have been an undercover informant.

01:33:34.200 Well, I mean, I'm, you know, don't want to speculate or anything, but it seems entirely possible.

01:33:39.220 Coming from his, you know, political pedigree in Germany, the intelligence training, his patron in Washington, D.C., an Air Force colonel who was believed to have, you know, worked for the CIA, he has all of those traits.

01:34:06.580 And, and, which I must introduce one more character here, it turns out during a couple of years after the bombing, and as a matter of fact, on the eve of Timothy McVeigh's trial, this, you know, let's remember one of the lessons of this story is just the uncuriosity.

01:34:35.580 Of the national news media, they were taking their spoon-fed story from the DOJ in Washington, D.C.

01:34:45.440 while this Oklahoma news reporter was beating the bushes, and he found, his name is J.D. Cash, he's one of the heroes of this story, and became very close to Jesse.

01:34:59.200 He found an undercover informant, whose name was Carol Howe, who was embedded inside the bomb plot for eight months in the run-up to the Oklahoma City bombing.

01:35:19.520 That's the bomb plot.

01:35:20.060 Correct.

01:35:22.140 This, she was embedded at Elohim City in eastern Oklahoma, the hideout of the Aryan Republican Army, where Andreas Strasmeier was the militia leader, the paramilitary trainer.

01:35:38.860 And she told the FBI afterward, well, she told her handlers during the run-up, before the bombing.

01:35:54.220 This is why the survivors of the victims who know about this are so outraged.

01:36:02.060 She told of his, you know, in late September, October, Strasmeier said, it's time to stop talking and start blowing up federal buildings.

01:36:16.220 And he took, and she went along on at least one, and maybe as many as three, these apparently scouting missions to Oklahoma City.

01:36:31.760 Oklahoma City was on the short list of targets, one, you know, as well as two buildings in Tulsa.

01:36:39.760 But, yes, she told them that he was planning this, you know, that there was going to be a bombing, and it might be the federal building in Oklahoma City.

01:36:53.660 So, and they knew this, the FBI, now, she was an informant for the ATF, not the FBI, but the FBI debriefed her right after the bombing.

01:37:06.620 And she was never charged.

01:37:07.460 She was charged, not, she was charged in reprisal, basically, for going public about this afterwards.

01:37:19.000 What would she have been, what were you thinking she would be charged with?

01:37:24.100 Well, I mean, she was an accessory to the bombing, it sounds like.

01:37:27.460 She was an informant. 0.89

01:37:29.020 Yes, but she was also, of course, she was, but I mean, like, strictly speaking, she was part of the plotting, correct?

01:37:34.640 She, no, she was, she was an observer.

01:37:38.120 She was an observer.

01:37:39.240 Oh.

01:37:41.480 I have a theory of this case, and I want to throw it out to you against your superior knowledge.

01:37:48.260 But before I do that, can we just pull back and assess the political effects of all of this for a second?

01:37:53.620 Yes.

01:37:54.000 So Oklahoma City happens in April of 1995.

01:37:58.980 Clinton is totally focused on his re-election at that point.

01:38:05.600 Things are about to get super, things are about to get really crazy in his life with the Monica Lewinsky stuff.

01:38:12.800 And there's just a lot going on in America at this point.

01:38:15.680 And Clinton's worried about it.

01:38:16.900 He's unpopular.

01:38:17.580 Oklahoma City happens.

01:38:20.520 What happens to Bill Clinton's political career?

01:38:23.300 This saved his political career.

01:38:25.840 He was, you know, I mean, everybody remembers him as the great comforter and chief going to Oklahoma City and in a, you know, almost ministerial way.

01:38:38.800 Right.

01:38:39.020 You know, comforting the victims.

01:38:41.920 And then it was possible to, you know, pass in Washington.

01:38:49.420 They could pass new legislation.

01:38:52.860 The FBI's budget was increased to, you know, prevent terroristic attacks.

01:39:03.460 I mean, it was, you know, it was the beginning of, it wasn't, we saw this after 9-11.

01:39:11.460 But yes, it was a great boon for the Clinton presidency.

01:39:16.780 And as you said, it was a great boon for federal law enforcement who got more money and more power.

01:39:21.980 Yes.

01:39:22.300 But the irony is, just like the FBI and CIA got more money and more power after 9-11, which they allowed to happen, obviously.

01:39:30.020 I mean, they, well, they allowed it to happen or not on purpose, but it happened on their watch.

01:39:34.440 They were paid to prevent it from happening.

01:39:35.800 It happened anyway, but they got richer and more powerful as a result.

01:39:39.060 Their screw-up helped them.

01:39:41.900 Absolutely.

01:39:42.360 And that's true here as well.

01:39:43.820 Absolutely.

01:39:45.260 Amazing.

01:39:46.100 So here's my theory.

01:39:46.900 My theory is that the federal, various agencies, ATF, FBI, maybe others, were fully aware that this plot was in progress.

01:39:59.760 They may or may not have wanted it to happen, probably not at the scale it actually did happen, who knows.

01:40:07.220 They weren't fully in charge of it, but they knew that it was going on and they thought they could kind of fine-tune it.

01:40:15.320 They couldn't.

01:40:17.560 It went off.

01:40:18.480 It killed a lot of people.

01:40:19.620 And then they just kind of made the best of it from there, hid their own involvement in it, wound up murdering a guy, hid that.

01:40:28.180 Their number one goal was to protect themselves.

01:40:31.100 Their number two goal was to infiltrate white supremacist groups.

01:40:33.640 And none of this has come out really to the public, despite a number of books, first and foremost yours, and the efforts of Jesse Trent to do, because the American news media is totally vested in denying any of this and pretending that the real threat is these fringe groups.

01:40:52.860 That's my theory.

01:40:54.700 Absolutely, Tucker.

01:40:56.020 You think that's right?

01:40:56.680 I do.

01:40:57.260 I do.

01:40:57.960 And this story is such, it's so much about the failure of the news media and how they had 30 years to ask the hard questions about Oklahoma City.

01:41:18.040 And instead, they actually helped bury this story along with the victims of the bombing.

01:41:27.880 I just a couple of instances of this, I mean, because it's been a long investigation.

01:41:37.040 But literally, in 1997, on the eve of the Timothy McVeigh trial, at this time when the Oklahoma journalists discovered the informant, ABC deployed a news team to get that story, to get the Carol Howe story.

01:42:03.420 And they did, with the help of J.D. Cash, the Oklahoma journalist.

01:42:09.660 They got it in the can.

01:42:12.160 And the day of air, the Department of Justice bore down on the ABC network and they killed the story.

01:42:24.320 Was it a Jackie Judd story, do you know?

01:42:26.340 No, it was Tom Jarrell.

01:42:30.680 Wow.

01:42:31.000 Yeah.

01:42:31.900 And Tom Jarrell afterwards told the producer, who's one of Jesse's crew, another Marine, told him that in all his career, he had never seen anything like this, that they were totally blindsided.

01:42:46.380 And Roger, being a Marine, his producing partner knew that he was tight with Colonel David Hackworth, who was Newsweek's military affairs correspondent.

01:42:57.440 He said, call Hack, see if you can get yourself on the Don Imus show.

01:43:02.060 So, this story that was rolled by ABC News was broken by Roger on Don Imus's radio show in New York City.

01:43:19.080 Right, which is a great way to bury and discredit true things.

01:43:23.200 Roll him out on Don Imus, you know, no one will pay, you know, people sort of, what?

01:43:26.660 And then move on to something else.

01:43:28.240 But then, again, however many years later, 13, 14 years later, they had this, another chance to bring this to the national media.

01:43:41.820 When Jesse set John Matthews up with the whistleblower, John Matthews up with Newsweek for a cover story.

01:43:53.900 And at the time, and I'm sure you know John Solomon, John Solomon was the editor on that story.

01:44:00.560 And they got everything in the can, including their reporting confirmed that Andreas Strasmeier, the German that the FBI never interviewed, that he was an undercover operative working for PatCon.

01:44:25.980 So...

01:44:26.900 Did that run?

01:44:27.700 No, none of that information ran.

01:44:31.560 Because just as back in 1997, the Department of Justice bore down on Newsweek magazine and its editor, Tina Brown.

01:44:42.780 And the night before the story aired, every detail, including, as I told you, the sighting by John Matthews in San Ceiba, Texas, all gone, all removed.

01:44:58.880 Why, and Tina Brown made that decision, so far as you know?

01:45:02.460 As far, I...

01:45:03.820 Somebody at the publication made that decision.

01:45:05.860 Yes.

01:45:06.060 Why would...

01:45:06.580 It was an executive edit.

01:45:07.880 Right.

01:45:08.640 If it was Tina Brown, I don't, I used to work for Tina Brown, I would be sad to hear that. 0.62

01:45:12.960 That's pretty craven.

01:45:13.920 I would not be surprised in the slightest, but I would be sad.

01:45:17.080 I don't know that.

01:45:17.860 But it sounds like somebody made that decision.

01:45:19.720 So why would a news organization cave to the DOJ on something like that?

01:45:24.400 I don't really understand.

01:45:25.640 Well, perhaps by threats.

01:45:28.380 I mean, the...

01:45:29.700 I didn't hear any...

01:45:31.100 Profanity comes immediately to mind.

01:45:32.800 I mean, if I got a call from DOJ saying, you can't say that?

01:45:37.700 In the first case, I did hear an explanation from Roger Charles, who worked on that story that was killed.

01:45:45.000 And he said that the principals were calling, this is what, you know, the network.

01:45:54.920 And what was said was, if this story runs, it will be the end of the ATF, and there will be machine guns on every corner.

01:46:05.720 And that was enough for the executives in New York to say, we can't go there.

01:46:10.800 Right.

01:46:11.020 So it's going to get in the way of gun control.

01:46:12.660 So don't do it.

01:46:14.060 There's a larger goal here, which is disarming the population.

01:46:19.660 Okay, whatever you want.

01:46:22.240 Right.

01:46:22.760 No, it's...

01:46:23.320 It's...

01:46:24.140 I...

01:46:24.660 Yeah.

01:46:25.100 I mean, we could do hours because you spent your life in the media, as I have, and just the corruption of it is just beyond belief.

01:46:32.060 But everyone knows that.

01:46:33.300 But I guess what I would say is that by not covering stories like this, you allow new ones to occur.

01:46:40.380 So this was 1995.

01:46:42.400 Then you have 2001, 9-11.

01:46:45.980 You have 2021, January 6th.

01:46:51.140 Both, you know, those stories, the stories we were presented on television are just not true.

01:46:56.100 And the government involved in really sinister ways in both.

01:47:03.320 And a lot of others.

01:47:04.660 I mean, in between.

01:47:05.940 The Gretchen Whitmer assassination attack where, like, everybody involved seemed to be a Fed.

01:47:10.280 That's a huge alignment to that story.

01:47:13.620 And I would mention one more, Tucker, which was new to me as I researched, is that the Boston Marathon bombing has spun out a whole spiral of possibilities that the older brother, the one who was killed, was an FBI undercover operative.

01:47:38.720 And there's a book written about that.

01:47:43.560 And Dana Rohrabacher, the same congressman who tried to look.

01:47:49.080 From Orange County, California.

01:47:50.300 Yes.

01:47:50.880 Yes.

01:47:51.780 He pressed with a House investigation into the Oklahoma City bombing and the possible German connections.

01:48:01.200 I mean, looking, among other things, at Andreas Strassmeier.

01:48:04.600 He continued to look at this same picture after the Boston Marathon bombing and just faced stonewalling from some of the same people.

01:48:21.680 I mean, Janet Napolitano, who was involved in the Oklahoma City bombing case, was one of the ones stonewalling him.

01:48:32.960 And Robert Mueller, who, of course, was involved in, you know, Jesse's case, trying to get justice for Kenneth on Capitol Hill.

01:48:44.540 That's another whole story.

01:48:46.260 But, yes, to your point about what has happened since the bombing, since the Oklahoma City bombing, because we don't know what really happened.

01:49:02.360 And the potential for this creeping surveillance cancer that seems to, you know, attach to so many of these terrible events where we still don't fully understand what happened.

01:49:23.240 Can I ask one last question?

01:49:24.200 So, now, Pam Bondi's the attorney general. 1.00

01:49:26.600 Kash Patel runs FBI.

01:49:29.220 Dan Bongino right beneath him.

01:49:31.240 I mean, there are people who say they're reform-minded.

01:49:34.220 I think Bongino is reform-minded, for the record.

01:49:37.040 But, you know, there are people of good faith, I think, in positions of authority in federal law enforcement now.

01:49:44.000 What should they immediately declassify, disclose, stop efforts to hide about the Oklahoma City bombing 30 years ago that could resolve all these questions?

01:49:59.340 Like, what should we know that we don't?

01:50:01.220 Release the videotapes of the bombing.

01:50:04.340 Yeah.

01:50:04.480 Let America see this movie as well, and maybe just as important, maybe more important.

01:50:13.440 And Jesse has a letter on Attorney General Bondi's desk as of March, which says,

01:50:21.500 stop the DOJ resistance to unsealing the FBI whistleblower's deposition.

01:50:35.140 This is where, potentially, he laid out the entire scope of the PATCON program, which nobody knows about.

01:50:47.780 On the record, the FBI will say, oh, PATCON was just this little operation we had, just lasted for two years, and it was just targeting three extremist right-wing groups.

01:51:02.900 No, John Matthews, their top spy, says, I worked PATCON for eight years, and I infiltrated 22 groups.

01:51:12.920 And he says PATCON was run out of the White House, and PATCON was even involved in Waco, and PATCON was a precursor to Fast and Furious that included gun walking, illegal ammunition and gun sales.

01:51:33.640 You know, it was an octopus of a surveillance program, and that was the 1990s, and the lid has been kept on it while all these other things happened that we are talking about, and perhaps might have been prevented.

01:51:55.480 It'd be interesting to know what's going on now.

01:51:58.920 I mean, as someone who's been in, you know, around right-wingers this whole life, I don't know a lot of potential bombers, you know, not kind of that sort of right-winger.

01:52:06.840 But you wonder how many people, I mean, if the government has decided that everyone to the right of Chuck Schumer is a security risk, and they have,

01:52:18.560 if anyone who opposes our program is a security risk, anyone who's not on board with totally destroying the country is our enemy, and that's their view for sure,

01:52:29.220 then you wonder how many people they are collecting information from, how many people they are sending money to, how many people are, in effect, federal informants at some level at some time in their lives.

01:52:40.580 I did some research on this for the last chapter of the book, and I'm...

01:53:10.580 $40 million a year on this, and think about what it is, their frontline jobs, bad enough, like betraying their families, friends, and work associates.

01:53:24.180 But then, to complete their projects, they're committing crimes, and sometimes, and their managers are looking the other way, and nobody seems to be keeping tabs on this, which has definitely increased exponentially since 9-11.

01:53:46.680 Has there been any reform at all in the past six months that you've noticed?

01:53:50.440 Because I haven't noticed any reform at all.

01:53:52.260 No, and we both know that, again, it's this slow walk.

01:53:59.160 The allegation from the January 6th detainees is that there is a heavy infiltration by the federal government, and this has been batted around Capitol Hill now.

01:54:18.320 Why can't we get an answer?

01:54:22.020 Chuck Grassley and someone else have a letter now on the desk of...

01:54:31.240 Why should they have a letter?

01:54:32.680 I mean, Republicans control the Department of Justice, so I don't understand what the motive is here.

01:54:39.040 I mean, you know, how many federal law enforcement officials and or informants were in the crowd on January 6th?

01:54:48.940 Simple question.

01:54:49.800 Why can't we get that answered?

01:54:52.540 I don't understand it.

01:54:53.600 It's not enough to pardon people.

01:54:55.020 It's like, what the hell just happened?

01:54:57.160 And what are they doing now?

01:54:58.600 And why can't I know?

01:54:59.940 I live here.

01:55:00.740 I'm a citizen.

01:55:01.660 No?

01:55:02.140 Do you feel the frustration?

01:55:02.920 Absolutely.

01:55:03.940 And maybe this is the answer to your question.

01:55:06.300 What can Attorney General Bondi's Department of Justice do right now?

01:55:12.900 Well, answer that question.

01:55:15.500 Yeah.

01:55:16.680 I really appreciate you taking all this time.

01:55:18.780 It's an amazing story.

01:55:19.820 If you had told me two years ago that there was something weird behind Oklahoma City, I would have been really surprised.

01:55:25.480 But it turns out everything about it was weird.

01:55:27.520 Tucker, thank you.

01:55:28.320 And they murdered a guy and got away with it.

01:55:31.140 At least one.

01:55:31.740 Thank you very much.

01:55:33.780 My pleasure.

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The Tucker Carlson Show - August 04, 2025

Margaret Roberts Exposes the True Story of the Oklahoma City Bombing and the Ongoing Cover-Up

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