The Tucker Carlson Show - Norman Finkelstein Cuts Through Israel’s Propaganda： Gaza Genocide, Oct. 7 & Netanyahu’s Corruption

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00:00:30.000 i want to ask you about the the october 7th attacks or in the aftermath so the october 7th

00:00:42.820 attacks happen and from those for those of us who are not really following gaza i was definitely in

00:00:48.820 that category it seems to kind of come out of nowhere correct and the main question that i had

00:00:54.360 was well how could israel not have seen this coming but i what i didn't think enough about is

00:00:58.220 Why did the attack happen?

00:01:01.400 What was the context for that?

00:01:03.180 Which is not to excuse it.

00:01:04.260 I just want to be clear.

00:01:05.000 I'm not excusing that or any killing of innocents.

00:01:07.740 But what was happening in Gaza right before that?

00:01:11.640 Well, it's not just right before that.

00:01:15.760 Gaza becomes Gaza in 1948

00:01:18.420 after Israel expels roughly 750,000 Palestinian Arabs

00:01:25.120 from the area that becomes Israel.

00:01:26.760 Of those 750,000, 300,000 are expelled to Gaza, and they become roughly 80% of Gaza's population, obviously swamping the original Gazan population. 0.81

00:01:44.480 Now there are all these Gazans from Israel.

00:01:46.620 Who hold Egyptian citizenship at that point?

00:01:49.600 In 1948, Gaza is simply part of mandated Palestine. 0.85

00:01:55.740 Okay. 0.75

00:01:56.760 a British-mandated Palestine.

00:01:58.440 So about 80% of the population are now refugees.

00:02:07.020 If you go back and look at the literature,

00:02:10.140 it's quite interesting that already in the 1950s,

00:02:16.660 UN officials were stationed in Gaza.

00:02:20.880 Now, this is when Gaza is under Egyptian control, okay?

00:02:25.140 Because Egypt gains administrative control over Gaza after the 1948 war.

00:02:33.680 Already, it's being described as a concentration camp.

00:02:39.620 Now, this is under Egyptian control.

00:02:43.380 If we fast forward to 1967, in July 1967, Al Gore Sr., the father of the person— 0.83

00:02:55.640 Senator from Tennessee.

00:02:56.700 Correct.

00:02:57.780 Al Gore Sr., he goes to visit Gaza.

00:03:01.620 That's correct.

00:03:03.540 And then he comes back and he testifies before Congress on what he observed.

00:03:09.800 And he describes Gaza as, quote, a concentration camp on the send, if you will.

00:03:19.180 So, already, beginning in 1948, outside observers coming to Gaza, that's their reference.

00:03:32.080 Yes. Now, in 2004, the head of the Israel's National Security Council, his name is Giora

00:03:43.780 Island. Giora Island is not a peacenik. He's still among the living, still very active advising,

00:03:51.880 right as we speak, the Israeli government. He was the one who said around 2024, he said,

00:03:59.720 if epidemics break out in southern Gaza, that's a good thing. It's a good thing for 1.00

00:04:06.940 the epidemics. Epidemic of disease? Yes. Now, in 2004, he's having a conversation

00:04:16.320 with senior U.S. officials, and he describes Gaza as, quote, a huge concentration camp.

00:04:23.880 Now, bear in mind, the first individuals I mentioned, that's 50s, early, mid-60s, concentration camp had a very definite resonance.

00:04:42.120 And yet, those are the words that leapt to mind, or those are the descriptives that leapt to mind.

00:04:49.300 Giyar Eiland is Israeli, he's Jewish, he's the chief of Israel's, the head of Israel's National Security Council.

00:05:02.500 As a Jew and as an Israeli, surely he knew the resonance of describing a parcel of land as a concentration camp.

00:05:16.540 That's the descriptive he used.

00:05:19.300 Now, here's the, not footnote, but here's the big qualifier. 0.99

00:05:29.460 That was Gaza in its best days. 0.95

00:05:33.520 That's a fact. 0.97

00:05:35.720 That was Gaza in its best days.

00:05:38.820 In 2006, our president, George Bush, he embarked on what he called democracy promotion.

00:05:47.580 You might remember that phase.

00:05:50.340 And part of democracy promotion was, he told the Gaza, the Palestinians, they had to hold elections.

00:06:00.280 Hamas did not want to participate in the elections because they saw it as part of what was called the Oslo process.

00:06:08.420 namely when Clinton, President Clinton, Yasser Arafat, and Yitzhak Rabin signed an agreement in

00:06:17.180 1993, which Hamas felt was a sellout. So they didn't want to participate in the elections

00:06:24.360 because they thought it was part of what was called the Oslo process. Pressures put on them,

00:06:29.840 pressures put on them. They finally agreed to participate. Well, they run on a reform platform

00:06:37.560 because the Palestinian Authority is hopelessly corrupt 1.00

00:06:41.860 and they win the election. 0.96

00:06:45.180 Well, the wrong side won.

00:06:48.860 Hillary Clinton later said, we made a big mistake. 0.98

00:06:52.760 We should have made sure that Hamas didn't win,

00:06:57.440 which is her concept of a democratic election. 0.96

00:07:01.180 So the moment Hamas gets elected,

00:07:05.540 in what jimmy carter who observed the election he called it quote free and completely free and

00:07:14.860 fair elections that's how he described it it was actually the first free and fair democratic

00:07:20.420 elections in the arab world the first time some people say tunisia before but i think it's

00:07:28.380 credible to say these were the first fully free and fair elections. Israel at that moment,

00:07:35.420 it imposes, and then followed by the U.S. and the EU, imposes this medieval blockade on Gaza.

00:07:43.360 It draws up this long list of things that you can't allow into Gaza. You can't allow in 0.96

00:07:51.320 chocolate. You can't allow in baby chicks. You can't allow in potato chips. You can't allow in 1.00

00:08:01.780 any condiments. You can't allow in musical instruments. You can't allow in notebooks.

00:08:11.160 And they said they were very open. Well, I shouldn't say they were very open about it,

00:08:14.960 but the documents were eventually released,

00:08:17.720 they were going to put the people of Gaza on a, quote,

00:08:23.940 humanitarian minimum diet,

00:08:28.060 which is another way, is the euphemistic way of saying a starvation plus diet.

00:08:34.380 And they said they were very open about their goal. 0.99

00:08:38.120 We're going to keep the Gaza economy on the precipice

00:08:44.960 of collapse, so the people will ultimately remove Hamas from office. What was called,

00:08:54.900 if you remember, and you don't go back that far, but when the popular unity government came into

00:09:01.800 power in Chile in 1971, and the U.S. was very upset about that, and they said that we're going

00:09:07.900 turn the screws on Chile until the economy screams. And that's what Israel attempted to do 0.92

00:09:17.800 in Gaza. And by 2008, the UN humanitarian chief, Mary Robinson, she visited Gaza and she said,

00:09:33.120 quote, a whole civilization is being destroyed. I'm not exaggerating. A whole civilization is

00:09:44.240 being destroyed. By October 6th, I think it was The Economist magazine described Gaza as a sinking

00:09:52.780 ship. A UN official described it as a toxic slum. It was a disaster, a disaster zone,

00:10:04.820 a human-made disaster zone, that illegal, inhuman blockade of Gaza. And then every few years,

00:10:14.980 Israel launched what it called an operation in Gaza. They used the term, we're going to

00:10:23.940 mow the lawn in Gaza, which is a kind of humorous metaphor until you factor in that one half 0.76

00:10:38.260 of gaza's population are children and then if we connect the metaphor with the reality 0.79

00:10:50.980 that means the blades of the mowers are cracking the skulls of the children of gaza so how do you

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00:13:25.600 dot com slash tucker so you had operation cast lead in 2008-9 operation pillar of defense

00:13:41.160 In 2012, Operation Protective Edge, 2014, these high-tech killing sprees.

00:13:56.100 When Operation Protective Edge ended in 2014, it was 51 days.

00:14:06.120 I believe it began July 7th and ended August 26th, I'm pretty sure.

00:14:11.160 When it ended, the head of the International Committee of the Red Cross, his name was Peter Morer, he went to Gaza.

00:14:22.200 Now bear in mind, the job description of the head of the ICRC, the International Committee of the Red Cross, is basically to tour war zones.

00:14:31.060 He walked out of Gaza and he said, never in my life have I seen the level of destruction that I saw in Gaza.

00:14:45.980 Now just to give your listeners a juxtaposition, that means placing side by side.

00:14:53.640 In Operation Protective Edge, 18,000 homes were destroyed or severely damaged.

00:15:06.120 Morris said, I've never seen levels of destruction like that.

00:15:10.760 In Gaza now, 325,000 homes were destroyed since October 7th.

00:15:18.540 In Protective Edge, there was left behind roughly 2.5 million tons of rubble.

00:15:30.720 In Gaza now, 61 million tons of rubble.

00:15:38.840 Back then, it was unparalleled in conflict zones in 2014. 0.85

00:15:48.540 Now, it's not even a blip on the screen compared to what Israel has done.

00:15:55.300 Do we have a reliable estimate of the number of people, all aggregate number of people killed in Gaza since October 7th?

00:16:05.840 No.

00:16:06.500 I mean, there are all sorts of projections on the number of persons killed.

00:16:11.640 everything from the numbers that the Gaza Ministry of Health give to, as I said, there's so many

00:16:21.460 different projections that's hard to know which are credible, which are not credible. And also,

00:16:28.320 how do you calculate it? You know, are they deaths from bombing artillery shells? But then

00:16:36.160 what about all the deaths from people who because of hunger their immune system the children their

00:16:44.160 immune systems are significantly compromised and they die technically not from direct fire they die

00:16:54.080 from um medical uh medical reasons so i i don't think there is a good number i've one number which

00:17:04.140 i found interesting i've not made the comment publicly i only recently started to think about

00:17:10.720 it there are all sorts of denials that israel has committed a genocide in gaza and i'm happy

00:17:18.340 to engage with you on that question but on a strictly statistical level the most recent u.n

00:17:27.440 report on Gaza deals with the targeting of children in Gaza, and also the West Bank,

00:17:36.320 or the targeting of children in particular in Gaza. Now, if you take the case of the Nazis,

00:17:42.580 and they also say that's a key indicator of whether or not we're dealing with a genocide

00:17:50.180 or we're dealing with a war.

00:17:53.580 If large numbers of children are being targeted,

00:17:58.960 then the argument that this is a war begins to...

00:18:07.040 Questions are raised about whether it's a war

00:18:11.280 or whether it's a genocide.

00:18:13.420 The percentage of the current statistics we have,

00:18:18.860 the Gaza Ministry of Health,

00:18:20.180 The percentage of children killed is put at 30%, roughly 30%.

00:18:26.200 In the Nazi Holocaust, the estimates are 6 million Jews were killed, of whom 1.5 million

00:18:36.960 were children.

00:18:38.640 So roughly 25% of those killed were children.

00:18:44.100 Now, if it's correct, and I believe there's certainly a plausible argument, that the

00:18:50.140 number of children killed, a percentage, is an indicator of whether we're dealing with a war

00:18:56.440 or whether we're dealing with a genocide. I would say if we're all agreed what happened

00:19:05.180 during the Nazi Holocaust was a genocide and 25% of the victims were children, then certainly, 0.83

00:19:15.680 by analogy, a plausible case is in Gaza, if 30% are children, that's a strong argument that it's

00:19:25.640 a genocide. I should warn you that the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism includes comparing

00:19:30.280 the actions of the Israeli government to those of the Nazis. So you've just committed anti-Semitism. 0.62

00:19:35.500 Well, the problem is with the IHRA definition is Israelis are all the time comparing their 0.93

00:19:43.160 enemies to nazis that's a great point why did they get to do it why did they get to make the

00:19:51.360 comparison but nobody can compare them to nazis that's just totally inconsistent you go back in

00:19:58.460 the history they said nasser in egypt the first president of egypt gammel abdel nasser they said

00:20:06.340 he was Hitler. They said Saddam Hussein, you might recall, head of state in Iraq. They said

00:20:13.920 Saddam Hitler. They all the time saying, they're actually saying the mullahs in Iran are worse 0.78

00:20:22.980 than Hitler. Netanyahu said, Prime Minister Netanyahu said, the Hitler only wanted to conquer

00:20:31.860 Europe. But the Mullahs in Iran, when I conquer the world, they're worse than Hitler. Hamas is

00:20:41.100 Hitler. Everybody is Hitler. But the moment you say they carry on like Nazis, it suddenly becomes 0.92

00:20:49.700 a taboo, a red line. But that doesn't make any sense to me.

00:20:55.840 Imagine it's 3 a.m. You're dead asleep. You wake up to a weird noise. It sounds like it's coming

00:21:00.300 from inside your house.

00:21:01.600 Well, that's terrifying.

00:21:02.920 Is it a home invasion?

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00:22:00.320 So you think it is fair to say that Israel's committing genocide in Gaza?

00:22:04.300 I would say the following. 0.70

00:22:06.800 If you take the accumulation, the cumulative effect of what Israel has done, 0.94

00:22:15.180 you don't look at it discreetly, this action, this action, this action, this action. 0.89

00:22:21.460 You take the total picture.

00:22:23.060 so israel's the density and the rate of israel's bombing in gaza unprecedented in modern conflict

00:22:33.340 in some cases even as far back as world war ii if you take the worst cases in world war ii like

00:22:42.580 dresden the intensity and rate of destruction is higher in gaza that's a fact than dresden

00:22:52.060 That's correct. That's correct. Not just Dresden. There's Dresden and a couple of other major cities, but they've slipped my mind. Number of children killed.

00:23:03.220 Oh, that's shocking what you just said.

00:23:04.940 Yeah.

00:23:05.320 Number of children killed.

00:23:07.420 If you take all combat zones in the world,

00:23:12.160 combine for the years, say, 2020, 2021,

00:23:19.560 2020, 2021, and combine them,

00:23:24.580 all the combat zones, more children killed in Gaza.

00:23:27.780 Amputees, child amputees. I'm not sure if it's child or maybe it's all amputees. It's now the densest concentration of amputees anywhere in the world.

00:23:44.420 But schools, 97% of Gaza schools, have been destroyed or severely damaged.

00:23:57.420 Targeting of hospitals, targeting of medical personnel, targeting of UN workers, targeting of journalists.

00:24:07.660 They're all in a totally different category.

00:24:11.460 They're in a totally different universe.

00:24:14.420 then the closest second closest third closest fourth so then what are you to conclude

00:24:22.100 when you add up as i said you take the cumulative picture i don't see how you can possibly reach

00:24:34.880 any other conclusion the one qualification i would make is it's not so much a qualification 0.94

00:24:42.860 it's a clarification i don't believe israel's goal is genocide its goal is empty out gaza right they

00:24:54.860 were very clear about that they want to ethnically cleanse gaza but the means they are using their

00:25:03.460 modus operandi is the destruction of the gossack population until they leave now you could say but 1.00

00:25:13.820 they can't leave because the border is sealed and nobody wants them and that's true so they will 1.00

00:25:20.700 continue killing until they achieve their goal and if it's to kill everybody they will kill 1.00

00:25:27.820 everybody they are dead set on uh for once and for all solving the gaza question they want to 0.99

00:25:36.820 solve the gaza question and for them um solving the gaza question means the expulsion of the 0.51

00:25:43.200 population and the only way they can persuade the population to leave and persuade neighboring 0.83

00:25:50.980 countries of the world at large, to take them in, is to commit a genocide.

00:25:58.780 So I have spent quite a lot of time going through the human rights reports and various

00:26:07.880 other documents, and when you see the cumulative effect of what's been done, I don't see how

00:26:18.640 you can reach any other conclusion, which is why, as I'm sure you know, not only many,

00:26:26.700 if not most, leading authorities in international law, not a few of them Jewish, even Israel's

00:26:39.840 major human rights organization for the occupied territories, Betselem. Persons like, I believe,

00:26:48.840 Arya Nair, who founded Human Rights Watch, Kenneth Roth. Arya Nair is a refugee from the Nazi

00:27:00.660 Holocaust. Kenneth Roth, who was the former head of Human Rights Watch, in various venues.

00:27:09.840 They've all concluded that it's a genocide, but there's another factor.

00:27:17.640 Now, I'm not saying it's authoritative, but I would certainly say it's indicative.

00:27:26.500 The estimates are 30% to 40% of American Jews believe it's a genocide. 0.50

00:27:36.740 That's a kind of astonishing fact, bombarded as they are from youth to love Israel, attending synagogues where support for Israel is a key, a tenet of belonging.

00:28:01.760 and yet and to their absolutely eternal credit it's genuinely a sight to behold

00:28:13.920 and maybe i should but i kind of i rebel against it take pride in as a jew

00:28:22.720 30 to 40 percent believe israel is committing a genocide it's a credit to that community

00:28:33.600 and i would add as i'm sure you're aware because you told me before the interview that you have 0.99

00:28:40.880 been in so to speak a jewish milieu a large part of your life um very educated these are not people

00:28:50.420 who are easily bamboozled or duped or tricked, and yet they have reached that conclusion.

00:29:02.960 So here again, I say, if you look at the cumulative picture, experts, human rights

00:29:11.480 organization, International Court of Justice, which reached the preliminary conclusion that

00:29:19.680 Israel was plausibly committing genocide.

00:29:23.500 That was back in January 26th, 2024. 0.73

00:29:27.780 So it's long for the horror that unfolded since January 26th.

00:29:35.300 I think it's the other side that has to make a case.

00:29:42.360 The broad consensus is there now.

00:29:45.400 it's a horrible consensus

00:29:49.680 instead of making the case

00:29:51.460 what I see happening is

00:29:53.180 attacks

00:29:54.780 not just verbal attacks

00:29:57.040 but you know

00:29:57.620 attacks on people's employment

00:29:58.720 against anybody who

00:30:01.500 who says wait

00:30:02.560 this is this is cruel

00:30:03.980 and awful

00:30:04.700 those people

00:30:06.040 the Trump administration

00:30:07.420 stripped them of their green cards

00:30:08.840 in a bunch of cases

00:30:09.740 so

00:30:11.180 I don't see anybody

00:30:13.040 trying to make the case

00:30:14.620 for israel i see supporters of israel attacking anyone who questions israel i guess that's what

00:30:18.980 i'm saying that's absolutely correct what was new after october 7th was that before october 20

00:30:33.520 of october 7th when there would be uh events and guys i won't call them flare-ups because you know

00:30:42.000 It was high-tech killings.

00:30:43.200 It's not much more than a flare-up.

00:30:45.800 When there were, before, usually Jewish organizations, Jewish supremacists, billionaires, they operate behind the scenes.

00:30:55.980 They would call the university president.

00:30:58.880 I don't think you should give that guy tenure.

00:31:02.340 Oh, did that happen to you?

00:31:04.000 Yes.

00:31:04.900 Just kidding.

00:31:05.780 No, famously.

00:31:06.420 But I think it happened with a certain amount of frequency, but it was behind the scenes.

00:31:12.000 What changed after 2007, for the reasons that you just suggested, it was very hard anymore to make a case in public. 0.82

00:31:22.180 Too much was known, too much was seen on the social media, and too much of it Israel carried on in such a flagrant and brazen fashion with its own citizens in their citizen army posting on the social media the horrors they were committing. 0.81

00:31:52.180 It had become so flagrant and brazen, it was impossible to conceal. 0.84

00:31:58.420 Well, the big difference, I think, was...

00:32:00.080 I'll just allow me, and I want to give you a chance.

00:32:04.860 And so, they starred in a very brazen and flagrant way to play the blackmail weapon.

00:32:14.940 People like Bill Ackman, and there were many others, but he sort of was the public face.

00:32:20.760 they would call up they would say publicly there would be petitions that were publicized

00:32:28.580 saying if you don't crush the encampments the students who were supporting gaza 0.99

00:32:34.460 were withholding alumni contributions we're not going to give you money now it's true places like

00:32:43.120 harvard have large endowments very large endowments however it's also true to say

00:32:49.560 that that alumni money was not small change people like bill ackman he gave harvard i believe

00:32:57.060 50 million dollars two alumni two jewish alumni of harvard gave it respectively one gave 200

00:33:07.200 million one gave 300 million that was big money though as i say still next to the endowment it's

00:33:16.440 not so big but still absolutely it's money okay and then they went from school to school

00:33:23.480 by the end of the by the end of 2024 the encampments were in the spring of 2024

00:33:31.860 they had succeeded in ousting claudine gay at harvard elizabeth mcgill at ufp shafiq at

00:33:44.280 colombia and then there were many many many others i'm just giving you the ivy league the big names

00:33:49.240 when mcgill was uh ousted from ufp i happened to be friends with somebody who knows her well

00:33:59.580 from uh business connections and he met her and he conveyed to her his sympathies

00:34:06.820 and two words came forth from her mouth.

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00:35:47.920 It wasn't just universities, by the way.

00:35:52.460 I have friends who work in hospitals.

00:35:56.060 Everybody was terrified, terrified, terrorized to take down anything on their social media.

00:36:06.720 in support of gaza i have friends at lincoln center the good side of the jewish tradition is

00:36:18.320 they give generously to cultural institutions libraries arts institutions universities and so

00:36:28.320 forth you can walk into a library in new york city they list the main donors 95 jewish and it's true 0.93

00:36:38.320 across the board hospitals obviously but the bad side is it's a lot of cultural power 0.95

00:36:46.400 it's a lot of cultural power and it was then used for in my opinion nasty sinister purposes

00:36:56.960 You mentioned, and it's true of course, the Trump administration went after people threatening deportation, disappearing them, throwing them into places of confinement which were not accessible.

00:37:14.900 But here's the thing. That was all spearheaded by the Jewish supremacist billionaire class. And here's another thing. Did they ever protest it? Did they ever say what was done to Mahmoud Khalil from Colombia was wrong? Did they register a single word of dissent? 0.70

00:37:40.000 this was the most audacious and

00:37:49.120 stupendous assault on academic freedom i am i'm ready to argue with anybody

00:38:00.980 i've studied academic freedom in our country i've written a large amount on it there's been

00:38:08.100 nothing like it in the modern history of the United States. The concept of academic freedom

00:38:15.000 begins at the beginning of the 20th century, the early 1900s. And there have been waves of assault

00:38:25.040 on freedom in general and academic freedom. The Red Scare in the early part of the 20th century,

00:38:32.400 Obviously, the McCarthy era where alleged communists were persecuted and lost their jobs, but there's never been anything.

00:38:47.200 Now, I know people are going to say I'm engaging in hyperbole, but I ask you the question, and I ask the listeners.

00:38:53.920 three three ivy league presidents were ousted they were all women two of the three were women

00:39:09.000 of color so they had all the so-called you can call it ideological protections of a woke culture

00:39:17.720 it didn't protect them you're right they had all the protections do you know how the new york times 0.72

00:39:25.120 would have screamed to high heaven at three women two women of color being ousted not a pee 0.68

00:39:37.860 And that reign of terror, it is a reign of terror, that continues to this day. 0.99

00:39:47.520 I can tell you factually, since that spring of 2024, I've only been invited to speak at two colleges in the United States.

00:40:00.780 That's a fact.

00:40:02.300 Two.

00:40:04.200 What's your normal rotation like?

00:40:06.660 period uh mine is it's gone up and down for various reasons which are not worth going into

00:40:11.920 but there were periods where i spoke at 40 schools a year that's true about 40 schools a year and i'm

00:40:19.100 talking about collectively i was i spoke at university of massachusetts that was last year

00:40:24.660 i actually was nicely greeted at cornell university and the president of the university

00:40:31.020 showed up, and he introduced me, which was, I thought, courageous on his part, and he was

00:40:38.380 actually friendly to me. I was very tough. I was very tough, but he seemed to believe in the

00:40:46.740 principle of free speech, the John Stuart Mill principles, and he had me there, but that's it.

00:40:53.480 Now, remember, I've not been invited anywhere in New York.

00:40:57.800 I live there.

00:40:59.440 I live there.

00:41:00.700 There's a terror that has this sound.

00:41:04.300 Where does it come from, I wonder?

00:41:05.600 Well, I think it's perfectly rational.

00:41:08.300 I mean, I have to be honest with you.

00:41:10.040 Look, let me give you a couple of examples.

00:41:12.920 At Harvard University, okay, as you probably know, 0.57

00:41:19.560 the israel supporters they rented trucks put students pictures on the trucks and went through

00:41:32.200 boston cambridge calling them terrorists okay students who were mad at the israeli government

00:41:39.880 students who were active in the encampments now let me tell you something they also went to the

00:41:48.280 neighborhoods 500 miles away where the kids families lived do you get that yeah if collective

00:41:59.800 punishment if that truck came to my parents house my parents would kill me now my parents were in 0.72

00:42:07.400 the far i'm serious my parents were in the far left i told you they were stalinist diehards till 0.98

00:42:14.280 their last breath. But could you imagine a truck going up and down the Jewish neighborhood saying

00:42:22.400 Norman Finkelstein terrorist with my picture there? No. So when you ask me why did they

00:42:32.300 capitulate, it's amazing. Remember, these schools cost $80,000 a year, and the kids are being

00:42:42.860 threatened with suspension expulsion and even deportation so what do you think is going to

00:42:51.880 happen now on that point was there any grounds for it these claims about these students being

00:43:01.440 supporters of terrorism or terrorists or anti-semites let me give you one example

00:43:08.060 an exemplary case and that's harvard harvard produces a report 312 pages

00:43:17.100 on anti-semitism on harvard campus in the wake of the crushing of the encampments

00:43:24.220 i sit down i read it i'm curious i'm ready to believe maybe an incident here maybe an incident

00:43:33.980 there. I go through the report. There's nothing there. It's a nothing burger. There's nothing

00:43:44.300 there. So I said, no, I must have gone in with a prejudiced eye. I mean, I said, I must have

00:43:49.600 gone in with a prejudiced eye. Let me reread it. I reread it. They said, at the encampment,

00:43:58.920 somebody had a picture of alan garber the president of harvard as a devil

00:44:04.860 as a devil somebody had a poster in the encampment they said that's obviously anti-semitic

00:44:13.100 well i'm not sure where that came from yeah yeah they said another person had a map of palestine

00:44:22.520 where Israel wasn't there.

00:44:25.980 So I think to myself, well, Mr. Netanyahu holds up not Palestine in the UN,

00:44:32.840 and there's no Palestine there, and there's just Israel there.

00:44:35.740 So that can't be really anti-Semitic.

00:44:38.800 So what is the anti-Semitism?

00:44:41.000 What is it?

00:44:42.320 And here I'll tell you what it is.

00:44:45.380 It's that they said that Israeli Jewish students in particular,

00:44:51.620 Israeli Jewish students don't feel wanted at Harvard.

00:44:56.480 They feel shunned.

00:44:58.940 They feel like they're pariahs.

00:45:04.780 And they said, Harvard has to be pluralistic.

00:45:11.560 Harvard has to be inclusive.

00:45:15.140 So in order to correct for anti-Semitism at Harvard,

00:45:20.600 we have to embrace diversity embrace everyone i'm thinking to myself well i'm all for being

00:45:31.760 inclusive i'm all for being pluralistic i'm all for a big tent but you know what

00:45:42.720 my big tent does not include child killers i'm not going there you lose me

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00:47:57.760 after world war ii for all i know this or that guard in a nazi concentration camp

00:48:08.180 went back to school to get a degree you want me to be inclusive of the people that exterminated

00:48:19.480 my family i'm not going there and it's the same thing you're gonna have to bear that burden

00:48:27.780 I'm not going to be inclusive of child killers. 0.99

00:48:31.420 Israel has become a nation of child killers. 0.99

00:48:33.820 They kill children for play. 1.00

00:48:36.120 For play.

00:48:37.960 And there's ample, at this point, ample documentation of that.

00:48:44.740 Of snipers killing children.

00:48:49.580 Of drones killing children.

00:48:52.360 Even in March 2018, during the Great March of Return, when the people of Gaza attempted nonviolently to end that medieval siege, the UN report found that Israel was targeting children, journalists, medics, brace yourself, targeting double amputees.

00:49:20.820 who were 300 meters away from the perimeter fence.

00:49:27.240 That's 2018, before the horror that was unleashed after October 7th.

00:49:36.740 And now you're telling me that I have to be inclusive and pluralistic

00:49:45.860 with these child killers, a nation of child killers. 0.94

00:49:53.300 To its credit, Israel has a citizen army, 0.97

00:49:59.200 and that's how it should be,

00:50:02.220 because everybody, I noticed two of your producers

00:50:06.740 or tech people, they were in the Marines,

00:50:09.460 they mentioned to me,

00:50:11.540 everybody should have to bear the burden

00:50:14.720 of the ultimate sacrifice to keep their country free of foreign occupation so in my opinion 0.89

00:50:24.960 that's a correct principle unlike in my day during the war in vietnam where students got that

00:50:35.260 deferment college deferment and so it was overwhelmingly a poor army and then it became

00:50:43.280 an even overwhelmingly more poor army because it was a volunteer army and who volunteers

00:50:48.940 overwhelmingly, those who don't see a future otherwise. So that's to its credit. But then

00:50:56.180 it becomes to its discredit if the army is committing genocide, because that army is a

00:51:05.820 cross-section of Israeli society. You can't, as I did when I was a young man, think of those who

00:51:16.860 are carrying out the murder and mayhem in Vietnam as having nothing to do with me. You know, we were

00:51:24.920 anti-war. But this is not the Israeli army. The Israeli army is representative of the Israeli

00:51:33.680 Jewish population, with one tiny exception, a representative of the Israeli Jewish population. 0.99

00:51:41.440 And so they are a nation of child killers. And even Garber admitted, it was about six months 1.00

00:51:53.880 ago or a little more, he said, a large part, I mean, that's his phrase, a large part of what

00:52:02.080 was called anti-Semitism, he said. It was just criticism of Israel. He acknowledged it. Now,

00:52:09.500 you might say, what about slogans like, from the river to the sea, okay? We're Americans.

00:52:17.540 We're Americans. In the United States, the Supreme Court has ruled it's legal to advocate

00:52:25.520 the violent overthrow of your government that's our jurisprudence in our country

00:52:33.100 it's illegal to burn the american flag that's our jurisprudence in our country

00:52:40.860 uh i was going to give my uh a couple of other examples but you can criticize the united states

00:52:49.780 all you want you can criticize you know listen you can not only criticize it you can call for

00:52:56.960 its violent overthrow and you're completely protected by the law so the slogan from the

00:53:04.220 river to the sea is so pale by comparison i mean even in our country there was a case

00:53:13.020 A fellow walked into a local courthouse with a T-shirt emblazoned on it, 0.97

00:53:20.240 fucked the draft. 0.98

00:53:21.960 It went to the Supreme Court. 0.97

00:53:23.940 They said it's protected speech.

00:53:26.980 So next to our jurisprudence from the river to the sea is so pale by comparison.

00:53:35.820 How could it possibly be illegal to shout that slogan in the United States?

00:53:44.260 So there was no basis for these claims.

00:53:48.500 The problem is, as I'm sure you understand, the other side doesn't care.

00:53:54.520 Because by the time these cases make their way through the courts, it's all over.

00:54:01.040 They succeeded in their goal.

00:54:02.940 They silenced all dissent on our college campuses, in our cultural institutions, in our hospitals.

00:54:11.480 They succeeded in their goal.

00:54:13.620 It won't be upheld.

00:54:15.160 I'm confident of that.

00:54:16.600 And there have been several rulings, as you know, supporting the dissenters.

00:54:20.600 It won't be upheld, but it already did the damage.

00:54:24.960 It'll be too late once it's undone.

00:54:27.880 So you said the president of Harvard later conceded that.

00:54:31.580 He called it a large part.

00:54:33.300 A large part of what some said was anti-Semitism is merely criticizing.

00:54:37.520 That's what he said.

00:54:38.180 Criticism of foreign government.

00:54:39.040 Yeah. 1.00

00:54:39.320 That's obviously true.

00:54:41.060 Why would, it seems very short-sighted, in fact, self-destructive to equate criticism of a foreign government, a foreign politician, Netanyahu specifically, who's not even that popular within Israel, to say that's the, criticizing him is the same as hating all Jews.

00:54:56.440 Why would anybody make that case?

00:54:58.020 That seems crazy.

00:54:58.740 well on the one hand it's to delegitimize all criticism well of course obviously

00:55:07.060 the other thing is i mean i think we have to be honest about these things netanyahu

00:55:14.640 is the longest sitting crime minister in israeli history okay every few years or even every few

00:55:23.920 months. He's going to be voted out of office. This is the end, the end, the end. And it never

00:55:32.880 happens. And the reason why, in my opinion, it never happens, because Netanyahu is the perfect 0.84

00:55:41.580 reflection of Israeli society. He's an obnoxious, self-righteous Jewish supremacist. That's Israeli 0.99

00:55:51.980 society, obnoxious, self-righteous Jewish supremacists. So when they see him, they see 0.99

00:56:01.100 themselves. And that's why he keeps winning despite all of these corruption allegations and despite

00:56:08.200 all these other attacks on his person. The Israelis don't really care. 0.99

00:56:13.240 Do you go to Israel?

00:56:15.720 I went there en route to the occupied Palestinian territories at the time.

00:56:25.160 I was denied entry in 1989.

00:56:32.880 And then I did get in.

00:56:34.940 And then in 2004, I was denied entry again, and I never returned, because they don't tell you.

00:56:46.340 I was denied for 10 years, but the governments moved progressively to the right, so I decided it was pointless to fly.

00:56:55.300 How could you be denied entry into Israel? 1.00

00:56:59.140 I thought that all Jews had a right to return.

00:57:02.880 In fact, I thought it was called the right of return.

00:57:05.580 I'm not sure on what particular law I was denied entry.

00:57:12.800 There must have been some security exception to the right of return.

00:57:17.720 I never really investigated it.

00:57:21.680 It wasn't important enough to me.

00:57:25.160 I just accepted it, acquiesced.

00:57:29.240 Huh.

00:57:30.140 Seems a little strange though, no?

00:57:31.700 Like you're not Jewish anymore because the government doesn't like you or something?

00:57:35.340 Why did they get to decide?

00:57:39.380 I recognized that they would be displeased with the things I said, so I wasn't altogether shocked. 1.00

00:57:47.800 Gradually, I started to deny entry to a lot of Jews. 1.00

00:57:50.960 I may have been the head of the queue. 1.00

00:57:52.560 Is that true?

00:57:53.400 Yeah.

00:57:54.380 There were a large number of Jews who were active in one way or another, opposing the occupation,

00:57:59.940 who were denied entry.

00:58:01.880 My recollection is a couple of years later,

00:58:05.860 Professor Chomsky was denied entry,

00:58:08.360 and there were many other people I know personally

00:58:11.220 who were denied entry.

00:58:13.300 I never considered it particularly significant.

00:58:20.460 What has it done to your life here in the United States

00:58:23.080 to take the positions you have?

00:58:24.380 um i would say first of all i'm not edith pf

00:58:33.260 you know i have my regrets but the overall trajectory this is what i resolved to do as

00:58:46.440 a young man probably around the age of 16 not having to do with israel palestine but

00:58:53.380 fighting for a more just world and the people who were important in my life as to use the corny

00:59:03.560 expression role models they had committed themselves to the cause many of them passed

00:59:14.640 or were killed early in life because of their commitment.

00:59:19.460 And those are the ones who inspired me.

00:59:22.280 And so I recognized that I would pay a price

00:59:26.120 and I was prepared to pay it.

00:59:30.900 And in the great scheme of things,

00:59:34.240 I'm now 72 years old.

00:59:37.180 I still have a roof over my head.

00:59:40.240 I'm not wanting for the basics in life.

00:59:43.260 and i lived most of my life of sound body and i like to believe also of sound mind so i can't say

00:59:53.920 it's caused me any by comparison to the people i admired and the suffering of others i can't say

01:00:05.500 i've paid a big price i would say the only frustration if i can put it that way is i

01:00:13.060 happen to like to teach i like the interaction with young people who are old enough to think

01:00:22.700 for themselves which comes with roughly college age 18 to 22 and also they are not yet jaded

01:00:33.240 yes or cynical about the real world they still have ideals so it's a wonderful age to interact

01:00:42.240 with and also to teach the excitement of the life of the mind ideas

01:00:52.620 thinking through problems not tweets a tweet is not an argument oh it's not no an argument

01:01:05.960 it is quite complex yes it has major premises minor premises it's very complicated to work out

01:01:15.160 and it requires a classroom to do that and it requires a text to go over together and so it's

01:01:21.620 a really a wondrous experience to be a college professor it's a responsibility but it's also an

01:01:30.780 experience. And I was significantly denied that opportunity. I don't take it so much personally

01:01:41.260 as I think I could have inspired many more young minds, not propagandize them. I'm totally against

01:01:52.240 propaganda in the classroom. I'm pretty much a stickler about that. Not propagandize them,

01:01:59.500 but trying to convey to them the joys of the life of the mind.

01:02:07.100 And I think I was deprived of that right because of political considerations.

01:02:17.380 Why are you against propaganda in the classroom?

01:02:20.080 Because a lectern is not a soapbox.

01:02:27.380 There is a place, if you have political convictions, when you're trying to persuade others of your beliefs, but I don't believe that's the place of a classroom.

01:02:39.880 You're not trying to persuade.

01:02:44.240 You're trying to get people to think for themselves.

01:02:56.360 And getting people to think for themselves, in my opinion,

01:03:00.300 is making the best arguments on both sides

01:03:05.240 if the student is decidedly of one political end of the spectrum

01:03:11.380 to make the best arguments from the other end of the spectrum

01:03:16.560 and force them to work through an argument

01:03:21.200 and reach a conclusion based on the evidence.

01:03:27.120 I think Bertrand Russell, the great British philosopher,

01:03:31.860 he once said, there are always good arguments to be made on both sides. There are always good

01:03:39.720 arguments to be made on both sides. It's rarely the case that in a major issue of contention,

01:03:48.300 let's say it's abortion or affirmative action, it's rarely the case that all the arguments are

01:03:58.940 on one side and there are no arguments on the other side there are always arguments on both

01:04:05.360 sides and then you have to make the best case and let each student decide for him or herself

01:04:15.540 not who is right and who is wrong no what the student has to do is weigh the arguments on both

01:04:26.320 sides and decide on which side is the preponderance of better arguments. It's never like

01:04:36.780 this, the scale. The scale is usually like this. There's always arguments on both sides.

01:04:43.280 You have to weigh the arguments and then decide who has the better case.

01:04:50.000 uh so that's your view yes it's my view based on you know i read the supreme court decisions

01:04:59.380 i thought i know this will sound like sacrilege i thought plessy versus ferguson which

01:05:07.420 legalized separate but equal in our country was a much better argument than brown the yes uh 54

01:05:19.820 decision that ended separate but equal brown wasn't even really a court decision it was an

01:05:27.640 administrative decree it was so poorly done and uh they call it liberals like to call it

01:05:36.480 the mona lisa of supreme court decisions no it was very poorly done the abortion

01:05:45.300 the Roe case is, in my opinion, it's a complete disaster. It's a disaster for a very obvious 0.95

01:05:54.520 reason for anybody who reads it. The Roe says a woman has a right to do with her body as she 1.00

01:06:03.320 pleases until another life enters the picture or what they call potential life so they say

01:06:15.280 of course a woman has the right right to do for with her body as she pleases that's protected by

01:06:21.540 the 14th amendment the due process clause of our constitution liberty the liberty they sometimes 0.98

01:06:30.540 call it the liberty clause and um uh this is a personal right that falls under the liberty

01:06:38.700 clause of the constitution but it says um you have uh to take into account when a potential

01:06:47.140 life enters the picture so obviously the question is when does the potential life

01:06:56.100 enter the picture is it at conception is it at um viability yeah right when does it enter the

01:07:04.900 picture the court says physicians disagree theologians disagree doctors disagree philosophers

01:07:16.180 disagree the court says we can't take a position we don't know when it is because nobody knows

01:07:24.940 when life begins well we have a problem here if nobody knows when life begins

01:07:33.380 but if it's a potential life or a real life then you lose your right to abortion

01:07:42.200 how do you decide how do you decide when a woman has the right you know

01:07:49.360 to her body and when the state has the right to interfere you said you don't know when life

01:07:57.860 begins so they say we'll decide its viability when the fetus can survive on its own outside

01:08:07.000 the mother's body but that's a technical question it just means when machines can keep the fetus

01:08:14.820 of life doesn't tell you when life begins no so the whole the whole uh rowe case was so poorly

01:08:23.880 argued and you could see and i go over it with the class and by the end there's probably a large

01:08:33.080 amount of agreement that it should be viability but there's a recognition that as a legal issue

01:08:42.720 it's a disaster and so it was pretty easily overturned and i would say the bachy case the

01:08:50.980 affirmative action case i thought that was pretty well argued i i i grant that but it's also was a

01:08:57.720 very complicated case i i'm not going to go into now how it was finally decided but in general as

01:09:03.860 general principle i i believe that one of my important responsibilities as a professor

01:09:13.780 to the extent i was able to practice my profession um is to show students that there are always

01:09:21.380 arguments to be made on the other side so i think we have different politics or i thought we did but

01:09:26.020 i would be thrilled to have you teach my children if the attitudes you just explained or your

01:09:30.740 your attitudes in the classroom because i think it is now i will tell you something

01:09:34.720 except i believe for two classes when i was at the pool university which eventually denied me tenure

01:09:42.460 i was never allowed to teach the israel-palestine conflict what yeah i was never allowed to teach it

01:09:49.220 why i think that's pretty obvious i was at brooklyn college hunter college those are city

01:10:00.020 university of new york the pool i recall there were two senior seminars where i taught the

01:10:06.820 israel-palestine conflict then i was unemployed from 2007 to about 2020 i had no work long period

01:10:16.260 of my life you were totally unemployed totally unemployed 13 years yes it was a dark period for me

01:10:24.180 because most people their structure in life is determined externally yes i have a job have to

01:10:35.300 get up exactly go to work and i had to every morning wake up and try to rationalize a purpose

01:10:47.140 to my existence and it was not easy how did you not go crazy uh you want to know the truth

01:10:55.380 i've forgotten those years yeah i've forgotten those years but i

01:11:02.660 will say they were a dark period and then i was doing some adjuncting that's a substitute teacher

01:11:11.700 for those of you who aren't in the academic world and at hunter college again they let me go

01:11:18.840 and then recently at brooklyn college so uh it was scattered it was very demeaning

01:11:32.640 yeah you know you know what an adjunct allow me to explain to your viewers is usually graduate

01:11:40.820 students who they hire at the last minute to fill a class because a professor got a grant

01:11:47.000 this had a family tragedy so you hire and it's usually a graduate student

01:11:53.160 and i am very far from a graduate student in just physical years and to be an adjunct and to be

01:12:09.060 treated. I know I shouldn't say this, but I don't much care. At Brooklyn College this

01:12:17.320 last semester, I hadn't been paid. I get paid pittance, pittance. They didn't pay me for six

01:12:32.020 weeks, I was so incensed, so enraged, treated like garbage. So it was a very humanly demeaning 0.92

01:12:49.760 position for a person. Let's leave aside my quote-unquote academic achievements, just my age

01:12:59.180 to be an adjunct, no.

01:13:03.220 You're also not to be vulgar about it,

01:13:04.800 but the most famous person

01:13:06.020 at Brooklyn College by a lot.

01:13:09.240 I'd rather not say that.

01:13:10.720 It's for others to say.

01:13:11.860 Well, that's my characterization.

01:13:13.880 You're certainly,

01:13:14.580 I don't know of anyone else

01:13:15.440 at Brooklyn College

01:13:16.060 who's more famous than you are.

01:13:20.000 How did that happen?

01:13:21.280 I mean, can you get specific?

01:13:23.700 The DePaul case about 20 years ago

01:13:26.760 was relatively well covered,

01:13:28.720 not as much as it should have been, but basically the department and then the college voted

01:13:33.700 to give you tenure pretty overwhelmingly, and then a bunch of outside forces, including

01:13:38.600 donors and Alan Gershowitz, intervened, and the university, the president, if I'm remembering

01:13:43.900 this correctly, denied you tenure.

01:13:45.700 Is that correct?

01:13:48.460 I think the final decision was made by the president, Father Holt Schneider, I believe.

01:13:55.160 I'm not sure in the allocation of responsibility who makes that last decision.

01:14:04.340 That, too, is kind of a blur in my life.

01:14:08.980 It was not—the last year was really pretty terrible.

01:14:12.560 Do you have any idea, in specific terms, how you were prevented from being a college professor?

01:14:19.660 um remember we're living in very different times now israel is on the defensive and those who are

01:14:30.860 supporting the rights of palestinians and opposing the various israeli aggressions they are on the

01:14:37.500 offensive uh when i first got involved in the conflict which was in june 1982 when israel

01:14:45.680 invade Lebanon, we're talking about a handful of, I think it's fair to say, you know the

01:14:53.560 Yiddish expression of Meshuggah? 0.98

01:14:55.520 Yeah. 0.98

01:14:56.060 Crazy people. 1.00

01:14:57.500 A handful of Jewish Meshuggahs opposed Israel's actions. 1.00

01:15:03.500 The only notable exception was Professor Chomsky, who sort of gave stature to our cause, but 0.98

01:15:14.000 it was just a handful of people. And early on, I had written my doctoral dissertation

01:15:22.080 on the theory of Zionism. And while writing the doctoral dissertation, there was a book that came

01:15:30.100 out way before your time. It was called From Time Immemorial. And the major thesis of the book was

01:15:39.120 that Palestine was empty. The Jews came, made it flourish, and then all these Arabs from 1.00

01:15:47.200 neighboring states infiltrated into Palestine and pretended to be indigenous to it.

01:15:55.220 The book became an instant national bestseller. It was endorsed by the who's who of the American

01:16:04.100 Intelligentsia, which largely consisted of Jews at that period, about 1984-83, and the book was

01:16:15.800 a sensation, it was a national sensation, because now we've proven that this whole thing about

01:16:22.800 Palestine has been contrived by anti-Semites in order to discredit the Jews and so forth.

01:16:32.720 I sat down, and I read the book.

01:16:39.600 Or I should also say the book was certified for its accuracy by a fellow named Philip Hauser,

01:16:47.180 who was the head of population studies at the University of Chicago, which is an imposing title.

01:16:55.240 Definitely.

01:16:56.060 Yes.

01:16:56.820 I sat down.

01:16:58.720 I worked at that point a part-time job.

01:17:01.480 I was writing my doctoral dissertation. I came home every night. A lot of it was demographics,

01:17:11.120 numbers, tables, numbers, tables. I would sit at home and take out my pad and paper. I didn't use

01:17:20.400 calculators. And I'm flipping the pages. The tables are in the back. The text is in the middle,

01:17:26.920 going back and forth, back and forth.

01:17:29.740 I'm going to figure this out.

01:17:31.080 I'm going to figure this out.

01:17:33.400 And then one night,

01:17:37.500 I discover one key number,

01:17:41.520 one key number in the tables was fake.

01:17:46.060 It was a fake.

01:17:48.420 It was a eureka moment.

01:17:53.060 A eureka moment.

01:17:54.220 chills down my

01:17:57.360 spine.

01:17:58.840 I lived in this tiny

01:18:00.920 studio apartment

01:18:02.340 like

01:18:03.880 Raskolnikov

01:18:07.520 in Crime and Punisher.

01:18:09.960 And I'm

01:18:11.160 pacing the apartment

01:18:13.240 back and forth,

01:18:15.480 back and forth.

01:18:17.020 I did it!

01:18:18.760 I did it!

01:18:20.620 I did it! I was just

01:18:22.920 overwhelmed it was like one o'clock in the morning who can i call who can i tell

01:18:32.120 well i'm jewish i called my mother

01:18:36.740 i said mom i did it i did it it was one in the morning and she said norm i'm so happy for you

01:18:50.400 what did you do now there was no way i can explain to her how i proved this is a demographic fraud

01:18:59.380 in any case then it became a real battle because i had the goods as they say nowadays i had the

01:19:09.700 receipts and that was going to mean i was just a graduate student and all of these experts

01:19:18.260 had lent their name to the book all of these authorities these

01:19:25.280 soul bellow elie wiesel barbara tuchman lucy de widowich they don't mean anything to yours

01:19:33.200 they do yeah well they were very big names and so i remember i sent out my findings

01:19:42.540 to several, around 20 prominent people

01:19:48.000 who support the rights of Palestinians.

01:19:51.400 You know, it was a different era.

01:19:53.860 You type it up, you have to Xerox it,

01:19:56.760 you send it in the mail.

01:19:58.740 Most of these people,

01:19:59.900 they're not going to give the time of day

01:20:01.900 to a graduate student.

01:20:04.360 They get too many other pieces of correspondence

01:20:09.620 from important people.

01:20:11.520 and one Saturday morning I got a call and the call was hello is this Norman Finkelstein I said yes

01:20:23.840 and the person then said this is Noam Chomsky I have read what you wrote and I found it convincing

01:20:33.860 and that was the beginning of a whole new chapter in my life he became a friend a close friend

01:20:43.100 and most importantly a mentor but he warned me on the very first correspondence he said

01:20:53.520 be aware that if you continue on this path there will be many brickbats

01:21:01.240 coming your way. Honestly, I am not a saint. I am very far from a saint. As Gandhi would

01:21:14.760 often say, I have 10,000 faults. And I do. And I will never pretend otherwise. But of one thing

01:21:27.840 I can say, with a certain amount of conviction, I cannot be bought.

01:21:38.520 And I attach a lot to truth.

01:21:44.840 I attach a lot to justice.

01:21:49.400 And I'm not open to compromising those values.

01:21:54.640 So with all due regard to my mentor, the great Noam Chomsky, it was not a tough decision at all to pursue it.

01:22:09.800 His wife, Carol, his first wife, who I was close to, we were family friends.

01:22:22.060 She would occasionally say that she was, and she liked me, she sympathized with my situation.

01:22:31.720 She would occasionally say, I'm angry at Noam that he didn't discourage you

01:22:38.020 because I paid, you know, relatives.

01:22:42.400 I paid some price, okay?

01:22:45.040 And I would say, no, Carol, you're wrong.

01:22:48.820 He did warn me.

01:22:51.800 But there was no way I wouldn't persist.

01:22:56.140 at the beginning i went i was called up by robert silvers i'm not sure if that name means anything

01:23:06.920 to you he was the editor of the new york review of books and the new york review of books was by

01:23:14.180 a wide margin the most influential journal among the intelligentsia yes okay and he called me down

01:23:23.240 to his office a door was opening a big door you know I was so excited my heart was palpitating

01:23:38.720 and he said to come down in like two hours it wasn't an appointment in the future

01:23:47.220 i had to um i had to calm down so i went out for a run okay it was in washington heights

01:24:00.460 the bodegas with the aluminum awnings if you remember what they look like yeah and i ran

01:24:08.220 under one and i cut a gash in my skull from here to here oh come on i swear i cut a gash

01:24:16.220 a long gash and it started to bleed i'm not going to miss this appointment i'm not going to miss it

01:24:24.780 this is it my chance in life you know like they say in britain's got talent

01:24:30.260 uh simon towel says this is those these three minutes might change your life so

01:24:37.740 I stopped the bleeding, I went, and he told me to meet his friend, a fellow named Rabbi Berger, no, Rabbi Hertzberg, Arthur Hertzberg, who was a rabbi and an academic at Columbia.

01:24:57.080 I go down to meet Hertzberg, and he says, we Zionists, I'm thinking to myself, where

01:25:10.700 did that we come from, we Zionists, like me and him, and then he said, he'll be my dissertation

01:25:19.020 advisor, I said, no, I'm at Princeton, you're at Columbia, he said, I'll take care of that.

01:25:27.080 And then he asked me a question.

01:25:31.940 He said, I'm quoting now, a long time ago, 1984, but I remember.

01:25:38.760 He said, are you in Chomsky's stable?

01:25:45.160 I didn't know what that expression meant, but I still got the idea.

01:25:49.900 And I know, you know, it's what you call the do or die moment.

01:25:55.280 And I knew if I said, yes, the door was going to shut in my face.

01:26:05.480 But there was no way on God's earth that I was going to say, no, that's not going to happen.

01:26:17.380 And I said, I consider him my mentor and a friend.

01:26:25.280 it was the last time i ever heard from the new york review of books

01:26:31.500 so to answer your question to answer your question everybody knows those moments

01:26:42.460 where you know the door may open or it may shut in your face oh yes and everybody faces those

01:26:51.060 moments in life it's called life uh and the doors kept shutting and i tell you i was bitter

01:27:05.700 because i liked to teach i was bitter because it was so demeaning

01:27:17.440 I remember once at Harper Hunter College, I was mimeographing some papers for the class at that time, long before, to your viewers, long before electronic, you know, send a syllabus and everything through electronic, through electronic technology.

01:27:42.120 and one of the professors came into the offices at night said what are you doing here i said well

01:27:49.520 i'm an adjunct i'm just xeroxing some stuff for the class she called security on me you know i

01:27:56.880 was already in my 50s no and and just for the just to establish for viewers who may not know

01:28:05.000 you were at princeton where were you educated undergrad i went to binghamton university then

01:28:10.700 princeton and then i studied at the ecopatis in paris that was my three periods of education

01:28:19.040 otherwise i've basically been home um so that's the story and uh are you bitter about it now

01:28:29.380 uh now i laugh you wouldn't know i laugh now i know it's it's not a bitter laugh but let's say

01:28:38.620 I wrote the only scholarly book, the only scholarly book on Gaza's political history.

01:28:45.460 The only one.

01:28:46.980 Sarah Roy of Harvard University.

01:28:49.340 She wrote the only scholarly economic history of Gaza.

01:28:53.780 Excellent book.

01:28:55.160 Okay?

01:28:55.660 I wrote the only political history.

01:28:59.100 It came out in 2018.

01:29:01.980 Okay?

01:29:02.580 It's still the only one.

01:29:04.260 Not reviewed anywhere.

01:29:07.040 Nowhere.

01:29:07.680 never mentioned you know how sometimes newspapers like the new york times when a event becomes

01:29:13.680 um front page news they'll have a little list of books you should read you know background books

01:29:19.680 never mentioned never mentioned you know so now i left so gaza's grave diggers

01:29:29.560 which you've written um how do you expect that to be received you know it's a question mark

01:29:36.920 because of the social media it's very hard to pretend i don't exist yes it's a it's it's a

01:29:46.440 challenge uh places like new yorker magazine no possibility atlantic magazine no possibility

01:29:57.980 maybe the times will do a hit job uh it's possible but in general i'm i'm pessimistic

01:30:07.500 but on the other hand there is the i think what they call the alternative media has now

01:30:14.300 sort of become the mainstream media and the mainstream media has become the alternative

01:30:17.980 media um so uh i think there are there are prospects it's a um

01:30:30.780 i think it's a good book it's not an easy book but i believe it's a good book

01:30:36.620 and uh i do think i do a kind of research that nobody does you know uh the philosopher john

01:30:47.260 Stuart Mill, he once said, the more valuable you become to yourself, the more valuable you become

01:30:54.860 to others. Which is another way of saying, the more you hone your God-given gift, and I believe,

01:31:05.700 I'm old-fashioned, I believe everybody has a God-given gift. Most people, they go through life,

01:31:15.900 it's latent yes i don't have the opportunity yes to discover they never find out what it is

01:31:23.860 they never find out what it is and some who do find out never find the time or resources

01:31:30.200 they can't apply it to apply it so i have a skill it's a small skill it's an attention

01:31:39.500 to detail. It's checking every footnote. It's applying my mind where I think something is

01:31:50.120 implausible to finding the errors in the argument. The great advantage that truth

01:31:59.680 has over falsehood is this. Truth holds together because it's true. Falsehood, if you apply

01:32:13.840 your I in a conscientious, almost maniacal way, and it requires a certain amount of

01:32:25.420 fanaticism you can prove it's false because at the end of the day it doesn't hold together

01:32:38.620 and that's been kind of my life's i won't say vocation it's my gift it's not a big gift

01:32:52.360 but what i like to say is what i do is not much i acknowledge that but what i do

01:33:04.520 i do well i can take any text which is implausible

01:33:14.380 at first glance prana fasi implausible i can put my eye to it page by page sentence by sentence

01:33:28.840 and i can demonstrate this is not true and that's what i largely do in this book

01:33:38.120 For example, one example that will be familiar to your listeners, there is no question that atrocities of a significant magnitude were committed by Hamas and other militant groups on October 7th.

01:33:57.920 And I am not a denier of any sort of atrocity, so far as the evidence shows, as of now, it happened.

01:34:12.280 But then there were claims made, as all of your listeners know, that Hamas had weaponized rape and sexual violence.

01:34:22.440 i found that for reasons not worth going into right now i found that implausible

01:34:29.860 and then i started to go through the evidence and there is no material evidence to support that

01:34:39.780 claim i devote the first chapter of the new book goddesses gravediggers the chapter is called

01:34:48.080 rape fantasies, I go through all the alleged evidence, and I find it not only non-persuasive,

01:34:59.340 I find the evidence non-existent. So- It's just totally made up?

01:35:06.260 Yes. Yes. I have to be careful about my words. You asked me the question, is it totally made up?

01:35:14.520 I would say the evidence, based on the evidence that's been adduced, it's totally made up.

01:35:24.100 So let's give you one example.

01:35:26.700 And then you judge for yourself, assuming what I'm telling you now is true, is accurate, okay?

01:35:32.560 After my book came out, this very—

01:35:35.140 I'm sorry, the claim has been widespread.

01:35:37.900 I mean, widespread, you hear it everywhere.

01:35:39.380 Right, and I'll get to that.

01:35:40.780 just remind me as i continue and remind me of the name sheryl sandberg which i'll get to if you

01:35:46.400 remind me i know sheryl sandberg okay good so let's take after my book came out this new israeli

01:35:53.860 report was published by what they call a civil commission and the amay the main author of the

01:36:01.500 report is somebody named dr kochov i forgot uh levy her last name will come back to me

01:36:08.500 so here's what she says okay she says hamas committed widespread uh rape on october 7th

01:36:22.640 widespread systematic sexual violence on october 7th you're familiar with those claims of course

01:36:30.000 as are as is your viewers and then she said the hamas had weaponized this sexual violence

01:36:40.500 including rape and gang rape in order to shatter the israeli national esprit spirit so it

01:36:51.200 posted all of these acts of rape and sexual violence on the social media,

01:37:00.960 even contacted the families of the victims using their own cell phones,

01:37:08.760 the family cell phones, which they seized and so forth, iPhones,

01:37:12.240 and disseminated all this evidence.

01:37:16.460 Okay, that's an interesting claim.

01:37:19.580 So what do you discover?

01:37:21.200 I hope your viewers are all ears.

01:37:26.200 They say that they have 10,000, 10,000 photographs and digital segments

01:37:39.380 of what happened on October 7th, 10,000.

01:37:44.160 they also say that if you were to view it it would take 1800 hours to view all of their

01:37:55.760 photographic and digital evidence it would take 1800 hours that means if you're a single researcher

01:38:05.640 and you go through this evidence it would take you and you did eight hours a day eight hours a

01:38:14.200 day every day of the week it would take you more than seven months to go through all of the

01:38:24.900 photographic and digital evidence

01:38:27.900 of October 7th.

01:38:31.320 Now here is the kicker.

01:38:34.300 There isn't one single image,

01:38:38.620 one single frame

01:38:40.640 of Hamas committing rape or sexual violence

01:38:44.700 on October 7th. 0.93

01:38:47.360 How can that be?

01:38:50.080 How is that possible?

01:38:52.240 Not one image.

01:38:53.340 They say Hamas was posting the images of sexual violence in order to demoralize, shatter the national spirit.

01:39:07.880 They said, we have Hamas dash cams, we have Hamas body cams, we have Hamas GoPros, we have it.

01:39:22.760 They said we have extensive images from Hamas.

01:39:31.360 But none of those images show sexual violence or rape.

01:39:36.760 There has not been one image, not one, put forth by Israel.

01:39:44.480 And Amnesty International said nobody even claims they have such an image.

01:39:50.060 how is that possible

01:39:53.060 by there i should also add they have cctv imagery digital evidence they have traffic

01:40:06.000 camera evidence they have iphone evidence from october 7th there's no evidence there's no image

01:40:16.200 how can that be how is that possible

01:40:19.560 so the only they have no physical evidence now part of it seemed plausible to me they said we

01:40:29.700 have no forensic evidence because they weren't prepared for a massacre of the magnitude of

01:40:36.260 october 7th so they processed the bodies very quickly to prepare them for jewish burial

01:40:42.000 ritual burial and they didn't preserve any or then preserve significant forensic evidence

01:40:48.040 that seemed plausible to me but no digital evidence that didn't sound right that didn't

01:40:55.720 even sound not only didn't sound plausible it didn't sound possible the only thing they have

01:41:04.040 is witnesses so they have this witness she says i was sitting in a little room i was hidden

01:41:16.960 the room was sealed they call a caravan a caravan the room was sealed a vehicular

01:41:25.560 hiding place

01:41:29.240 she said

01:41:30.440 sitting in the room

01:41:32.200 I heard

01:41:34.320 this is her words I'm quoting

01:41:36.520 I heard a gang rape here 0.89

01:41:38.920 I heard a rape here 0.98

01:41:41.560 and I heard another rape there 0.97

01:41:43.700 then 0.77

01:41:48.320 she starts giving more details

01:41:50.620 of these rapes 0.97

01:41:51.720 how is that possible 0.97

01:41:54.340 she heard in the loo a rape here a rape she said here here and here there there and there

01:42:03.200 that's their best evidence did she identify the victims of these rapes

01:42:06.740 she was sealed in the room there were no windows there was no windows you know you have to ask her

01:42:16.780 Did she hear the Vienna Boys Choir here and Boston Pops here and the Beatles reunion there?

01:42:26.160 It was like completely, and that was their star witness.

01:42:31.460 If you look at the current report, I mentioned to you the 300-page report.

01:42:38.240 She's listed first.

01:42:39.940 Of the survivors, there are two alleged survivors, one of October 7th, one a hostage survivor.

01:42:51.080 But if you look at the report, neither of them said they were raped.

01:42:57.520 They did not.

01:42:59.900 Read what they said.

01:43:01.980 The woman hostage survivor, she became quite prominent, Anat Susana.

01:43:10.940 She said, something terrible was done to me.

01:43:14.020 Maybe, I'm not going to dispute that.

01:43:16.320 Something awful was done to me.

01:43:18.300 But she never says she was raped.

01:43:21.420 She does not.

01:43:23.980 There's a claim by a nail that he was raped on October 7th.

01:43:30.120 But if you read his testimony to the so-called Civil Commission,

01:43:36.140 there's no, he doesn't say he was raped.

01:43:39.940 So, we're stuck with the following problem.

01:43:44.500 No forensic evidence, no digital evidence, no photographic evidence, and of the survivor

01:43:55.740 testimony, the one survivor from October 7th who's touted as a victim of rape, he doesn't

01:44:06.420 say he was raped the one survivor of hostages and not susana she doesn't say she was raped i i tell

01:44:18.520 you you know at my age the memory can slip uh the name the author of the report is dr kochav

01:44:24.960 l kayyam levy she's the author and i want to say look your program has breach obviously

01:44:35.700 it's not bgt neither three minutes nor three hours are going to change my life because my life is

01:44:47.700 over it's in the past but it has reach so i say you disagree with me dr al-qayim levy let's debate

01:44:59.080 it let's go to a public venue and debate it i say the same thing to cheryl sandberg

01:45:09.780 now of facebook cheryl sandberg was the mate meta yeah coo chief operating officer

01:45:20.300 and she's a bright woman no question about it i never deny people i can loathe them but i never

01:45:28.840 to live people their achievements. She attended Harvard. She was an economics major. She was

01:45:36.220 the top student in her economics class for her year. That's a significant achievement.

01:45:43.500 Now, she makes a film, a documentary, she calls it. It's called Screams Before Silence.

01:45:51.840 and its claims that there was mass systematic rape and sexual violence

01:46:01.120 on October 7th, committed by Hamas. 0.51

01:46:04.960 Systematic widespread sexual violence.

01:46:09.800 And she stars in the film and she emotes and she's in tears

01:46:17.140 and she's going, oh my God,

01:46:20.680 as she's looking at these images of sexual violence 0.93

01:46:24.760 and rape on an iPhone.

01:46:28.780 But Cheryl, I hope you're listening.

01:46:33.220 You're a bright woman. 1.00

01:46:36.120 But excuse my English, you're full of shit. 1.00

01:46:41.800 There were no images. 0.99

01:46:43.740 There was one image, but the independent, what are they called? Forensic specialists, whatever they're called. They said you couldn't tell anything from those images.

01:47:02.740 those images screams before silence should be called schlock before shice

01:47:15.780 your listeners can go to their can go get a dictionary to find out yeah yes you know schlock

01:47:22.980 before Scheiss. These are Jewish supremacists who have no regard, whatever, for facts, 0.92

01:47:34.800 because for them, it's the cause. And the cause is more important than any passing fact. 0.82

01:47:48.520 she attended harvard she was in the economics department she knows what evidence is she knows

01:47:57.400 what evidentiary standards are it's the cause israel must live

01:48:05.560 so last question pertains to what you just said

01:48:11.360 outside the united states i think it's very there's a consensus globally pretty much that

01:48:18.240 what israel is doing is totally indefensible these are crimes um but the question is will

01:48:24.420 there ever be a reckoning so your your parents were poles and were both put in nazi camps 0.75

01:48:30.520 including auschwitz and and your family was murdered but there was a reckoning a reckoning

01:48:36.220 i mean some of the people who committed those crimes were held to account will that happen in

01:48:40.180 this case well let's start from basics when the whole society is implicated in a genocide

01:48:51.520 apart from a few senior figures it's impossible for there to be a reckoning that's why places

01:49:03.500 like south africa pioneered the idea of a truth and reconciliation committee commission

01:49:09.980 because if you're going to prosecute everybody

01:49:15.760 implicated in apartheid,

01:49:18.080 it's a large portion of society.

01:49:21.980 So as a general rule, even in the best of cases,

01:49:26.020 it's only a handful of people

01:49:27.980 who are going to be held accountable. 0.92

01:49:30.200 In the case of Israel, 0.99

01:49:32.300 nobody will ever be held accountable. 0.96

01:49:34.580 That to me is pretty transparent.

01:49:39.200 why well because first of all the united states won't allow it to happen

01:49:48.140 part of it as you know is the domino effect if they're held accountable

01:49:54.100 trump is in a very first of all biden and blinken are in a very difficult situation

01:50:01.300 because they enabled the genocide if it weren't for uh joe biden and tony blinken there couldn't

01:50:10.120 have been a genocide in gaza it was funny the new yorker magazine wrote this article i believe it

01:50:19.360 was the new yorker in which it this is very recent in which it uh claimed that it was written by a

01:50:28.560 Phil Fitzpatrick, his name just, I think it was David Fitzpatrick, a former Times reporter.

01:50:34.960 And he said, oh, they tried so hard, they tried so hard, they couldn't do anything,

01:50:41.080 you know, meaning Biden, Blinken, and the others, Jake Sullivan, to prevent the genocide.

01:50:48.520 And then in the course of the article, they have a line that reads, 70% of the weapons

01:50:54.660 for the Gaza genocide

01:50:57.700 came from the United States. 0.89

01:51:00.360 You certainly had one option.

01:51:02.940 Yeah, don't sell the weapons.

01:51:04.900 Don't supply the weapons.

01:51:07.600 So there's always the fear

01:51:10.080 of the domino effect.

01:51:11.580 Right. 0.77

01:51:12.100 If Israelis are indicted,

01:51:14.560 where does that leave

01:51:15.500 the Biden administration?

01:51:19.200 So that makes it

01:51:22.100 improbable that's going to happen.

01:51:26.640 Same thing with Donald Trump, because the attack on Iran

01:51:31.860 was the most brazen, flagrant aggression in the modern history.

01:51:44.660 There's not been, to my knowledge, no, my knowledge is not unlimited.

01:51:48.980 to my knowledge there's never been a case in the modern world of a state

01:51:55.740 attacking without a pre pretense of a pretext right a pretense even hitler in 1939 when he

01:52:05.480 attacked poland he fabricated a border incident of course you always have to claim self-defense 0.83

01:52:12.080 You've got a Gulf Tonkin in it, yeah. 1.00

01:52:13.540 I was just going to say, you beat me to the draw. 0.82

01:52:17.740 In 1964, the U.S. had to essentially fabricate, or LBJ, Lyndon Johnson, the president, fabricate the Gulf of Tonkin resolution in order to, for those of you who don't go back that far, and luckily for you, if you don't,

01:52:37.940 And in, I believe it was August 1964, the claim was made that a North Vietnamese vessel attacked an American vessel.

01:52:53.380 And that was then, there were only two senators who voted against it.

01:53:00.640 It was Ernst Gruening, and I forgot the second.

01:53:03.320 and that became the piece of legislation that enabled the ground war in vietnam the u.s was

01:53:13.840 already heavily involved during the kennedy years but it enabled the ground war in vietnam

01:53:19.300 in the case of israel and the u.s there wasn't a pretense there wasn't the pretense of pretext

01:53:28.160 It was the most brazen, flagrant breach of the UN Charter in modern history.

01:53:36.440 In the middle of a negotiation.

01:53:37.640 In the middle of a negotiation.

01:53:39.280 See, I was listening to your interview with Daryl Cooper, and that was emphasized in the middle of a negotiation.

01:53:46.540 What's so dishonorable.

01:53:48.040 It was outrageous.

01:53:51.420 But you know what's also dishonorable and outrageous?

01:53:55.500 There was no reaction by the UN Security Council.

01:53:59.440 Nothing.

01:54:01.220 Nothing.

01:54:02.820 You could hear a pin drop in the silence.

01:54:06.760 You know what else was dishonorable?

01:54:09.420 On November 17, 2025, the UN Security Council passed Resolution 2803.

01:54:20.540 And you know what that resolution did? 1.00

01:54:22.240 amidst all the horror that the godforsaken people of Gaza

01:54:29.220 have endured since back in 1948. 0.85

01:54:34.760 The concentration camp in which they have been immured for 80 years

01:54:42.680 after the genocide over the past three years,

01:54:48.420 The UN Security Council, I know this will sound like hyperbole, exaggeration, the UN Security Council handed the deed of Gaza to Donald J. Trump.

01:55:07.040 He got the deed to Gaza.

01:55:10.240 He was designated the head of the Board of Peace.

01:55:14.860 He was subsequently given total veto power over any decision made by the Board of Peace, and the UN Security Council only put one condition, one.

01:55:32.680 Every six months, the Board of Peace should, not has to, should report to the Security Council on the situation in Gaza. 0.82

01:55:43.600 He owns Gaza. He owns Gaza. 0.78

01:55:49.140 So there have been many shameless episodes. 0.94

01:55:55.920 And in fact, that's what the purpose of my new book is.

01:56:02.660 to preserve for future generations, assuming there will be future generations.

01:56:14.620 And as you discussed with Daryl Cooper, there are all sorts of apocalyptic scenarios

01:56:24.120 that are plausible in the case of the current aggression against Iran.

01:56:30.580 but assuming and those by the way they are plausible i've written about them oh it's

01:56:37.460 definitely possible it's possible there are two crazy people with the helm yes one in tel aviv

01:56:43.980 and one in the oval office that's correct and it's absolutely impossible what to predict what

01:56:51.200 they might do. But assuming the worst doesn't come to the worst, what I've written is to preserve

01:57:01.320 the record of that infamy of what has been done to the people of Gaza, but with the recognition 0.68

01:57:14.040 that unlikely anyone is going to be held legally accountable 0.98

01:57:23.980 for what was done to those God-forsaken people.

01:57:30.820 Sad.

01:57:31.920 Well, in the absence of that, I'm glad you wrote this,

01:57:33.900 and I'm grateful that you took the time for this conversation.

01:57:37.020 Well, thank you so much.

01:57:38.140 And I hope that you are vindicated.

01:57:40.200 I don't need that.

01:57:41.060 Broadly.

01:57:41.620 Well, I hope so. 0.87

01:57:42.580 You don't seem to care.

01:57:43.460 No.

01:57:44.600 Too late in the day.

01:57:46.720 Thank you, Norman Ficklestein.

01:57:48.340 Thank you.

The Tucker Carlson Show - September 14, 2026

Norman Finkelstein Cuts Through Israel’s Propaganda： Gaza Genocide, Oct. 7 & Netanyahu’s Corruption

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