The Tucker Carlson Show

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00:00:30.000 Thank you both very much. Oliver, you first, how close do you think we are to nuclear war right now?

00:00:38.220 That's why I came up here. Yes. Or down here. Yes.

00:00:41.440 To tell you, I'm scared. I'm really scared.

00:00:54.900 Welcome to the Tucker Carlson Show.

00:00:56.540 We bring you stories that have not been showcased anywhere else.

00:01:00.740 And they're not censored, of course, because we're not gatekeepers.

00:01:03.980 We are honest brokers here to tell you what we think you need to know and do it honestly.

00:01:09.240 Check out all of our content at tuckercarlson.com. Here's the episode.

00:01:13.400 I've been talking about it off and on since 2014 when the Ukraine thing happened.

00:01:18.320 I was saying this is, frankly, like there's a lot of elements of World War I, the alliances, the NATO alliance, and the United States' involvement.

00:01:29.560 And its hatred for Russia is astonishing to me, considering the recent history, the last 20 years before that, there was no reason for us to pick on Russia and go back to this cold war, neo-cold war that we have.

00:01:47.180 That's what I don't understand. And I've been talking to Peter about it.

00:01:51.940 It defies logic because he says it's the neocons in Washington that started, and they never left.

00:01:59.900 You know, they were always there.

00:02:01.540 Brzezinski from the Carter days.

00:02:03.440 These are old arguments.

00:02:06.200 I heard them with my father, who was a conservative, relatively conservative, in New York City back in 1950, that the Russians were going to invade us.

00:02:14.880 And this was very much the feeling that McCarthy was saying they're in the schools, they're in the churches, they're in the...

00:02:22.000 But that's just, it was such paranoia.

00:02:24.440 And I think you know that now.

00:02:25.960 You grew up like conservative, too.

00:02:29.400 Yes.

00:02:30.460 You know, when did you start to go?

00:02:32.260 Well, I am conservative on many things, but I see no reason to be at war with Russia, and I don't know why Russia would be an enemy.

00:02:41.320 They're part of the West.

00:02:42.780 It's shocking to me because what Biden did, and I voted for him in 2018, he never talked about changing the Russia policy.

00:02:50.680 Yes.

00:02:51.040 He never did, and he never gave us any kind of knowledge of education about what he was thinking.

00:02:55.700 But he seems to be an all-out coal warrior.

00:03:00.440 Yes.

00:03:00.680 Everything he's done has been to antagonize him.

00:03:03.860 In fact, he called the president of Russia a thug and a murderer before he got elected.

00:03:10.240 So he hasn't been very diplomatic.

00:03:13.020 No, I would say not.

00:03:14.200 About it.

00:03:15.280 It must be strange for you to have grown up in the Democratic Party.

00:03:20.700 Republican Party.

00:03:21.460 Right, but I mean, as an adult, to see the party that was the party of peace and reconciliation become the war party.

00:03:28.260 Everything has turned around.

00:03:29.480 Everything has turned around.

00:03:30.800 With Peter, we were talking last night, and Peter is my co-author on Untold History of the United States.

00:03:36.340 And we've been talking, he taught me a lot of this history because he specializes in it for many years.

00:03:42.900 But here we are with this situation where Democrats want war, they push war, they're pushing the strategy of weakening Russia.

00:03:52.600 Yes.

00:03:53.040 Which is a self-defeating suicidal strategy.

00:03:57.460 What's the purpose of it?

00:03:58.820 What did they do to us?

00:04:01.160 What did they do?

00:04:02.100 I don't understand.

00:04:03.160 I don't understand.

00:04:03.560 What did they do to hurt us?

00:04:06.180 And what has Ukraine to do with that distance for us to do this involvement with NATO?

00:04:13.060 This NATO, also, for me as a half European, my mother is French, I spent time in Europe as a kid.

00:04:21.080 What I've seen is a huge change in Europe.

00:04:23.660 That's what's terrifying to me.

00:04:25.160 Why?

00:04:26.080 The people don't want war, but the EU, which is this political overrider, seems to want war.

00:04:34.480 And because the leadership in the EU is very elite.

00:04:38.860 People who seem to come from the same school, factory, or whatever they're produced by.

00:04:44.660 They seem to think the same way, that Russia is going to invade Europe again.

00:04:49.320 We're back to that World War II argument, which was nonsense in the first place.

00:04:53.240 Yes.

00:04:53.720 So, here, Russia wants Ukraine, and then they're going to go for Poland.

00:04:59.380 That's what Kamala Harris said at one point.

00:05:01.760 That's the stupidest statement I've ever heard, I think, from a political leader.

00:05:06.260 Just ignorant.

00:05:07.380 No education.

00:05:08.320 No history.

00:05:09.100 What do you think accounts for, big picture, the hostility of NATO and Europe to Russia?

00:05:15.980 What is that?

00:05:18.060 It's got to be education.

00:05:20.000 It's got to be propaganda.

00:05:21.300 They believe these things.

00:05:23.200 The woman who runs the EU, Ursula, she constantly says these things that are ignorant, ignorant of what's happened in the last 20, 30 years.

00:05:33.000 Ignorant of what happened in the 90s in Russia.

00:05:35.780 She's just, they're not taking this into account.

00:05:38.240 I talked to Macron at one point, and he was a very reasonable man.

00:05:42.160 And I thought he was saying things like, we need more nuclear energy in France.

00:05:46.120 Right, great.

00:05:47.480 And now he turns around, and he's saying that Putin was, he's ready to send French troops into Ukraine.

00:05:53.720 The British are the worst.

00:05:55.500 Starmer, this new prime minister, labor prime minister, you know who he is?

00:05:59.360 He's quite, he said, yes, two days ago, he said, we have to punish Putin to the maximum because he's relentless.

00:06:11.220 That's what he said.

00:06:12.240 We have to punish.

00:06:13.240 So there's an aspect, a personal thing about Putin, like Biden made it personal, saying he's a thug and a murderer, and Starmer saying he has to be punished.

00:06:24.680 Putin has to be punished, not Russia.

00:06:26.900 It's bizarre.

00:06:28.200 We didn't talk like this back when we were mature, back in the 50s, 60s, when we talked about Russia as an enemy because we thought it was adversarial.

00:06:36.280 I disagree with that, but we thought so, and we acted as such, but we didn't personally insult Khrushchev or Brezhnev.

00:06:44.080 Of course.

00:06:45.220 And here we are insulting them constantly.

00:06:48.400 So Biden, I think, is, some people say Blinken has taken control of his mind.

00:06:55.500 I don't know, but Anthony Blinken is trained in the Hillary Clinton diplomatic school.

00:07:01.680 He was, for many years, he's been under her wing.

00:07:04.460 Yes.

00:07:04.760 So is, I gather, Jake Sullivan.

00:07:07.960 Diplomatic is a little strong.

00:07:09.200 By diplomacy, it's just, you know, regime change.

00:07:11.760 Kill the leader you disagree with.

00:07:13.480 Diplomacy is a dirty word now in the United States.

00:07:16.160 Okay.

00:07:17.020 So, but, Peter, I'm interested in your perspective.

00:07:19.140 Like, why do you think the entire United States, from a position of greater weakness, has, with Europe, pivoted against Russia, of all the potential enemies?

00:07:29.580 Why Russia?

00:07:30.140 What else is new?

00:07:31.980 Right.

00:07:32.180 I mean, we've been going after Russia since 1917.

00:07:35.860 We got, we're mad at them.

00:07:38.260 Well, in World War I, Lenin and Trotsky pulled Russia out of the alliance and had the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, where they gave away a massive amount of Russia to Germany in order to get peace at that point.

00:07:55.580 And what does the United States do with the Brits and the Japanese and others?

00:07:59.740 We send troops into the Soviet Union in 1918.

00:08:04.400 There were 15,000 American troops there.

00:08:06.520 And Churchill wanted to overthrow the new Soviet government.

00:08:11.740 He said, we should strangle Bolshevism in the cradle.

00:08:15.020 So, this goes way back to them.

00:08:16.760 We didn't even recognize the Soviet Union until Roosevelt was in power in 1933.

00:08:23.220 So, and then during the war, they became our ally.

00:08:26.640 Yes.

00:08:26.840 And in fact, they were the ones who won the war in Europe.

00:08:29.400 Correct.

00:08:29.760 But I asked my students, who won the war in Europe?

00:08:32.360 You know, people grew up believing that the Americans won the war in Europe.

00:08:36.040 It's not true.

00:08:37.300 It's not even close to the truth.

00:08:38.960 We certainly contributed a lot during World War II.

00:08:41.840 But the Soviets, throughout most of World War II, the U.S. and the Britain were confronting 10 German divisions between the two of us, while the Soviets were confronting more than 200 German divisions on their own.

00:08:56.600 That's why everybody understood what Kennedy says in his great 1963 American University commencement address.

00:09:07.140 What the Soviets suffered in World War II is the equivalent of the entire United States east of Chicago having been wiped out.

00:09:15.900 You know, so you would think that we would be friendly with them afterwards.

00:09:19.900 And Roosevelt had a vision for that.

00:09:22.660 In fact, Roosevelt promised Stalin in May of 1942 that we would open up the second front before the end of 1942.

00:09:31.260 He asked Stalin to send over Molotov and a trusted general for that meeting in the White House in 1942.

00:09:38.300 And we made that promise.

00:09:39.920 We don't open up the second front until June of 44.

00:09:43.100 And by that point, we had lost all the diplomatic initiative.

00:09:47.060 The Soviets were defeating Germany largely on their own with the support of U.S. materiel.

00:09:52.720 And so they were pushing back the Germans over Central Europe and Eastern Europe.

00:09:58.720 And so the idea that Roosevelt gave away anything at Yalta that the Soviets didn't already have is nonsense.

00:10:05.200 The Soviets had that area.

00:10:07.440 And that's 44, 45.

00:10:11.360 Then, unfortunately, Roosevelt died.

00:10:14.240 And even more unfortunately, Truman became president instead of Henry Wallace,

00:10:18.860 which is another story I hope we can get into, because Oliver and I do a lot about that in Untold History.

00:10:25.520 And we argue that had Wallace become president on April 12, 1945, instead of Truman,

00:10:32.720 there would have not only been no atomic bombings in World War II, there would have likely been no Cold War.

00:10:38.220 History could have been so, so different.

00:10:41.280 But instead, we developed this enmity toward the Soviet Union.

00:10:45.220 And instead of seeing our allies who suffered so greatly and showing some largesse and generosity,

00:10:51.400 we'd begin to vilify them after that.

00:10:54.060 And the crackdown that happens in Eastern Europe doesn't happen immediately.

00:10:58.920 That takes place over the next couple of years.

00:11:01.260 It's a much gradual process.

00:11:03.040 They allowed a good degree of democracy in most of Eastern Europe

00:11:07.040 till really the Truman Doctrine in 1947, really.

00:11:13.040 And then after that, then the Cold War is on.

00:11:17.240 But Kennedy was the one who saw it differently.

00:11:20.660 And we can go into that, too.

00:11:21.960 Anyway, I'm giving you a lot of history very, very quickly.

00:11:24.920 None of that is surprising, but none of it, I would say,

00:11:28.780 accounts for the shift after the one that Oliver referred to after 2014 at Maidan.

00:11:34.220 But it actually starts earlier because when the Soviet Union collapsed, 1989, 1990, 1991,

00:11:42.500 during that period, we had a chance to actually reach out in a more positive way.

00:11:49.200 But it's in 1990 that Charles Krauthammer, the neocon theorist, says the Soviet Union has collapsed,

00:11:58.120 says this is America's unipolar moment.

00:12:01.140 He says we're the only force in the world that can dictate world events.

00:12:07.000 And he said the unipolar moment is likely the last 30 or 40 years.

00:12:12.120 It was in 1992 that we've come out with the defense planning guidance,

00:12:17.320 which is a much more elaborate plan of how we're going to dominate the world.

00:12:21.120 And then in 1997, the Project for a New American Century takes shape,

00:12:27.740 and that really fleshes it out much greater.

00:12:30.640 And they say in that 2000 report that we're not able to rebuild our defenses as quickly as we want

00:12:38.220 unless we have a new Pearl Harbor.

00:12:40.980 And they got that in 2001 with 9-11.

00:12:44.720 And so then we invade Afghanistan.

00:12:47.040 Then Krauthammer revisits.

00:12:48.120 Let me ask you to pause.

00:12:49.520 Do you think the people who said that we needed new Pearl Harbor in order to rebuild,

00:12:55.920 how do you think they felt about 9-11?

00:12:58.380 I think they saw it as a tragedy and an opportunity.

00:13:03.600 You know, I think they were...

00:13:04.740 So you're not suggesting they knew about it?

00:13:06.680 No, I'm not suggesting that.

00:13:08.260 And Oliver and I...

00:13:08.760 I think it's a mystery.

00:13:10.580 In what sense?

00:13:11.480 I think it's a mystery.

00:13:12.200 I don't think it's solved.

00:13:13.600 No.

00:13:13.780 Because all the events of 9-11 have not come out.

00:13:17.100 No, they haven't.

00:13:17.940 Why do you think that is?

00:13:19.340 I would have to really study this, but it's just so many questions I have.

00:13:24.140 So many...

00:13:24.780 This is not the subject today, but...

00:13:27.220 Yes.

00:13:27.460 It leads to this feeling that there's a cabal or something in Washington

00:13:33.480 that has been there, kind of, a strange ghost-like cabal

00:13:37.440 that goes back to the 60s with Kennedy's murder.

00:13:40.200 Yes.

00:13:40.600 That continues in some strange embodiment today.

00:13:45.760 And don't ask...

00:13:46.840 It sounds like it, but it's a strange concept.

00:13:50.580 But you have to think about it.

00:13:52.180 Well, we can't assess it because the files are still classified 23 years later.

00:13:55.800 We're talking about conspiracies now.

00:13:57.820 I mean, a lot of the lunatics have come out of the asylum, no doubt.

00:14:02.260 Yes.

00:14:02.640 But there's a lot out there in the public that really should be examined

00:14:05.400 and questioned and asked.

00:14:08.140 And that's what the establishment's freaking out

00:14:11.020 because we're overloading it.

00:14:13.260 You know, it's running over the rapports now.

00:14:15.480 They can't defend them anymore.

00:14:17.120 Yes.

00:14:17.780 I mean, there's...

00:14:18.540 Well, you were once derided as a conspiracy.

00:14:20.980 Yeah, I know.

00:14:21.960 I don't think so anymore.

00:14:23.400 But I'm still alive.

00:14:24.620 You've lived to see your own vindication.

00:14:28.060 Well, yeah, in a sense.

00:14:29.320 I mean, I'd love to see Kennedy understood better by the mass

00:14:32.960 because, you know, you still hear this silly,

00:14:36.860 Lee Harvey Oswald did it stuff, you know?

00:14:39.080 I mean, allegedly.

00:14:42.640 They never said alleged, you know?

00:14:44.420 It was alleged killer.

00:14:45.640 Yes.

00:14:45.940 They always say killer.

00:14:46.640 But, you know, those are...

00:14:48.780 I feel sorry that that happened.

00:14:50.500 But that's a bigger story now.

00:14:51.980 It's a bigger story because now it's the world that's at stake.

00:14:54.980 It's not the life of one man.

00:14:56.860 He had a vision, as Peter said, of humanizing Russia,

00:15:00.880 bringing them into the world community.

00:15:03.340 That was defeated when he was killed.

00:15:05.600 That was very badly defeated.

00:15:07.000 And Khrushchev fell shortly thereafter, the premier of Russia.

00:15:11.740 He fell, too, because he wasn't sufficiently strong with the United States.

00:15:15.660 He caved in during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

00:15:19.820 So his hawks wanted to get rid of him for being too weak.

00:15:23.920 But let me go back to what Oliver's saying,

00:15:26.960 because in October of 1962, right after the missile crisis,

00:15:32.120 two weeks later, Khrushchev writes an incredible letter to Kennedy

00:15:35.420 in which he says,

00:15:37.100 From evil, some good must come.

00:15:39.320 Our people have both felt the burning flames of thermonuclear war.

00:15:43.300 We have to use this now to eliminate every conflict between us

00:15:48.660 that could lead to a new crisis.

00:15:51.180 And Kennedy and Khrushchev slowly, on Kennedy's part,

00:15:54.300 more rapidly on Khrushchev's,

00:15:56.100 they began working together in 1963.

00:15:59.180 Norman Cousins was the intermediary,

00:16:01.600 and he met with Khrushchev twice

00:16:03.740 and made it clear that the United States

00:16:06.300 really did want to have a peaceful reconciliation.

00:16:10.160 And had Kennedy lived,

00:16:11.740 I mean, his AU commencement address that I mentioned

00:16:14.860 is, I think, the most important presidential address

00:16:18.200 of the 20th century.

00:16:19.320 Can you flesh that out a little bit?

00:16:20.600 It was the last big speech he gave before he was murdered.

00:16:22.840 It was a great speech.

00:16:24.040 What did he say?

00:16:24.820 Well, and Norman Cousins came back from Russia

00:16:28.240 and said,

00:16:29.040 Khrushchev needs some obvious signal that you're serious.

00:16:32.800 And Norman Cousins actually wrote the first draft.

00:16:37.580 And then Kennedy took it.

00:16:40.260 And they didn't let the CIA,

00:16:43.800 the State Department,

00:16:44.920 or the Pentagon even see it beforehand,

00:16:48.140 which is why Kennedy was able to,

00:16:49.860 it was called the strategy for peace speech.

00:16:52.820 And what he says there, among other things,

00:16:55.180 is that the relation between the U.S. and Soviets is tragic.

00:16:58.480 Why should we be enemies?

00:16:59.520 Why should we see them as enemies?

00:17:02.000 What Kennedy could do,

00:17:03.440 and he does in that speech,

00:17:04.780 is see the world through the eyes of America's adversaries.

00:17:08.920 When was the last time we had a leader who could do that?

00:17:12.780 I mean, Carter maybe for a minute,

00:17:15.120 Obama maybe for a minute,

00:17:16.560 but nobody else.

00:17:19.460 So what Kennedy says is so relevant to today.

00:17:22.900 He says,

00:17:23.380 to put a nuclear adversary in a position

00:17:27.760 of either suffering a humiliating defeat

00:17:30.320 or using nuclear weapons

00:17:32.220 is either a colossal failure of statesmanship

00:17:34.980 or a collective death wish for humanity,

00:17:38.420 which is exactly what Biden is doing at this point.

00:17:41.700 It's what we face right now.

00:17:43.000 Yeah.

00:17:43.300 So how was that speech received?

00:17:45.420 It wasn't as appreciated as it is now.

00:17:47.780 It should be read.

00:17:49.600 How was it received in Washington?

00:17:50.920 Oh, I would think a lot of people didn't like it

00:17:53.920 because they saw him as some kind of idealistic fruitcake.

00:17:58.240 Yes.

00:17:58.540 I really think so.

00:17:59.760 Certainly he'd fired Dulles

00:18:01.160 and he'd followed the top people at the CIA,

00:18:03.320 but I think there's a deeper...

00:18:05.540 People in economic activity

00:18:07.460 also were upset with him

00:18:09.180 because there were changes in the economics of the play.

00:18:12.700 The Democrats were gearing up for the future.

00:18:15.880 They were going to win the next election.

00:18:17.720 That second term was very important.

00:18:20.040 And they had a third term possibility with Robert Kennedy

00:18:23.020 and a fourth term possibility with Teddy Kennedy.

00:18:25.520 It was a possibility of another Roosevelt.

00:18:27.580 That was what's terrifying to the Republicans, I think.

00:18:30.860 Certainly to my father.

00:18:32.240 And I think that ties in.

00:18:35.540 You asked earlier why.

00:18:37.300 You know, why?

00:18:37.920 And I'm racking my brain,

00:18:39.900 but I go back to my father who was a stockbroker,

00:18:42.720 a very good one.

00:18:43.740 And he was intellectual.

00:18:45.280 He wrote about it.

00:18:45.960 To him, it goes back to World War I again,

00:18:50.920 to this concept of they changed their system.

00:18:53.600 They broke the rule.

00:18:54.380 The international, the rules-based order was changed

00:18:58.160 because now not only did they break the treaty,

00:19:00.900 no secret treaties was one of the first things they did.

00:19:03.760 And all these treaties from World War I came out.

00:19:07.620 The secret treaties at France,

00:19:09.340 England had signed before the war.

00:19:11.940 So that was, you see, that came out

00:19:14.460 and the German treaties came out.

00:19:16.660 So that was, but it was economic in the sense

00:19:19.580 that in the United States,

00:19:20.760 we had a lot of strikes going on domestically.

00:19:24.000 We'd had strikes going on since the 1870s.

00:19:26.760 And there was a worldwide sentiment for revolution

00:19:29.580 and the workers' socialist movement.

00:19:33.220 It infected France.

00:19:34.580 It infected England.

00:19:35.700 I mean, it's well-known.

00:19:37.680 And Germany was very much moving towards

00:19:40.700 a workers' revolution.

00:19:44.060 Yeah.

00:19:44.480 So that was the most scary thing to Woodrow Wilson.

00:19:48.480 It was the Russians are going to destabilize

00:19:51.160 the whole world.

00:19:51.980 And Churchill was right there and he wasn't a leader,

00:19:54.180 but certainly the English felt the same way.

00:19:58.300 They were the leaders of World War I.

00:20:00.080 So they had a stake in getting rid of Russia.

00:20:04.380 That's why the Starmer's recent comment the other day

00:20:07.120 about punishing Putin to the maximum

00:20:09.960 is very striking to me.

00:20:12.180 The British have led the charge against Russia forever.

00:20:16.300 And that gets back to 1990, NATO expansion.

00:20:19.760 And then in 1997, Brzezinski lays it out

00:20:22.720 in his book, The Grand Chessboard,

00:20:25.480 which Fyfe and Libby and Hadley

00:20:28.820 were also writing about just at the same time.

00:20:31.340 And what Brzezinski says in The Grand Chessboard

00:20:33.980 is that if you can separate Ukraine from Russia,

00:20:38.340 then Russia will never be a Eurasian superpower again.

00:20:43.200 They had a strategy for doing exactly what they did

00:20:46.980 for quite some time before that.

00:20:49.420 This is not something that they've just thought up in 2014.

00:20:53.180 Do you ever feel like you can't trust the things

00:20:55.040 you hear or read?

00:20:56.120 Like every news source is hollow, distorted,

00:21:00.040 or clearly just propaganda lying to you?

00:21:02.160 Well, you're not imagining it.

00:21:04.040 If the last few years have proven anything,

00:21:05.800 it's that legacy media exists

00:21:08.720 to distort the truth and to control you,

00:21:11.280 to gatekeep information from the public

00:21:12.880 instead of letting you know what's actually going on.

00:21:15.300 They don't want you to know.

00:21:16.760 But there is, however, a publication that fights this,

00:21:20.320 that is not propaganda,

00:21:21.700 one that we read every month

00:21:22.940 and have for many years is called Imprimus.

00:21:25.620 It's from Hillsdale College in Michigan.

00:21:27.240 Imprimus is a free speech digest

00:21:29.080 that features some of the best minds in the country

00:21:31.440 addressing the questions that actually matter,

00:21:34.360 the ones that are not addressed

00:21:36.180 in the Washington Post or on NBC News.

00:21:38.360 The best part of it, it is free.

00:21:39.760 No cost whatsoever.

00:21:40.760 No strings attached.

00:21:41.560 They just send it to you.

00:21:42.660 Hillsdale will send Imprimus right to your house.

00:21:45.520 No charge.

00:21:46.460 All you got to do is ask.

00:21:47.560 Go to tuckerforhillsdale.com

00:21:49.860 and subscribe for free today.

00:21:51.340 That's tuckerforhillsdale.com.

00:21:54.640 The only way this stays a democracy

00:21:56.840 is if the citizenry is informed.

00:21:59.640 You can't fight tyranny

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00:23:00.920 So, Oliver, you know Putin as well as any American,

00:23:08.120 or you spend at least as much time with him

00:23:09.820 as any living American.

00:23:13.160 Characterize what he's like, if you would.

00:23:15.340 Yeah, I might just, may I finish my point?

00:23:17.480 Of course, yeah.

00:23:17.860 Because it's complicated.

00:23:18.720 I just, we're talking about why.

00:23:20.560 I just feel the economics are crucial to understand

00:23:23.600 in the sense that the fear of the Russian Revolution

00:23:28.720 affecting American workers was gigantic.

00:23:31.640 Workers started to emigrate to Russia in the 1920s

00:23:34.380 to work there.

00:23:35.360 Conditions were supposed to be better.

00:23:37.280 We talk about it in the book.

00:23:39.000 And America was moving away from the capitalist ideal

00:23:45.000 that existed.

00:23:45.840 I think that plays a huge role coming after World War II,

00:23:51.420 also after World War I.

00:23:52.780 Of course, World War I leads to World War II in my mind.

00:23:56.400 But let's jump to World War II.

00:23:58.240 After World War II, they were terrified.

00:24:01.060 The Republicans were terrified that the Depression would return.

00:24:05.060 The Depression had been a horrible experience

00:24:07.400 for many Americans.

00:24:08.920 They were poor.

00:24:10.440 They had nothing.

00:24:11.580 They were terrified that it would come again.

00:24:13.380 So the whole concept started up in the Congress of 45

00:24:17.080 with the Republicans turning, winning.

00:24:20.540 They won a lot of seats, right?

00:24:22.120 46, yeah.

00:24:23.060 And they're talking about an economy,

00:24:26.240 a war economy all of a sudden,

00:24:27.760 like keeping people at full employment.

00:24:30.260 What are we going to do with all these men coming back?

00:24:32.440 Yes.

00:24:32.880 And the women have taken their jobs.

00:24:35.320 We got to keep people working.

00:24:36.900 So we're going to get into this military business.

00:24:39.580 And that's what we did off and on.

00:24:42.060 We did it through the era up to where Eisenhower says in 1960,

00:24:46.780 you know, he's built the greatest nuclear force

00:24:48.700 and army of all time.

00:24:50.840 Because in 1960, we have how many warheads?

00:24:53.820 We had 185 ICBMs, and the Russians had four.

00:24:59.100 Yeah, but I'm talking about in 1960 when Kennedy comes in.

00:25:02.460 Then we increase it by 1,000.

00:25:04.320 And the Joint Chiefs, the Air Force wanted 10,000.

00:25:08.920 Joint Chiefs wanted 3,000, I think it was.

00:25:11.480 And McNamara said the lowest number we can get away with is 1,000.

00:25:16.960 But from the Soviet perspective,

00:25:19.620 they saw the United States was already ahead

00:25:21.600 between 10 to 1 and 100 to 1 in every category.

00:25:24.740 And now they see us adding 1,000 more ICBMs.

00:25:28.960 So the Kremlin interpreted it that the U.S.

00:25:31.700 was preparing for a first strike against the Soviet Union,

00:25:35.160 which is part of the reason why they put the missiles into Cuba

00:25:38.180 to try to offset that, at least to some degree.

00:25:41.960 But again, you know, and Kennedy got a briefing on July 20th, 1961,

00:25:47.460 about a secret, advanced, preemptive strike,

00:25:52.400 nuclear strike to wipe out the Soviet Union.

00:25:54.920 And China.

00:25:55.800 And Kennedy walked out of that midway through the briefing,

00:26:00.000 and he turned to Dean Ruskin and said,

00:26:01.860 and we call ourselves the human race.

00:26:05.080 Lemnister gave it, and one of the people there said,

00:26:08.280 I think it was Roswell Kilpatrick,

00:26:10.240 says he gave it as if he was talking to kindergartners,

00:26:13.200 and Kennedy was so disgusted with it,

00:26:15.680 and the thinking behind the idea

00:26:18.080 that we were going to have a preemptive surprise nuclear strike

00:26:22.540 unprovoked against the Soviet Union.

00:26:24.700 But there were military people who were thinking that way,

00:26:28.080 as there are today.

00:26:30.480 I mean, the Bulletin Atomic Scientists

00:26:33.620 had an article on August 20th.

00:26:36.300 There were two interesting articles.

00:26:37.740 Sanger had one in the New York Times that day,

00:26:40.040 saying that the United States is preparing to fight

00:26:43.220 a three-front nuclear war against Russia, China, and North Korea,

00:26:48.260 and win that.

00:26:49.320 And the same day, the Bulletin Atomic Scientists

00:26:51.420 came out with an article saying that there are still planners

00:26:55.100 in the Pentagon who believe that we can win a nuclear war

00:27:00.460 and should plan for that.

00:27:02.320 What would that mean to win a nuclear war?

00:27:04.200 It's insanity.

00:27:05.080 It doesn't mean anything.

00:27:06.300 Well, that's why you should read this book.

00:27:07.720 It's very important because there is...

00:27:09.620 There's Annie Jacobson's book, Nuclear War.

00:27:11.960 There's no partial victory in this book.

00:27:14.160 It's impossible.

00:27:15.760 Once it gets...

00:27:16.660 It's a chain reaction once this thing starts.

00:27:19.000 There are so many different aspects to it.

00:27:21.340 It's a bureaucracy beyond belief.

00:27:23.160 The names, all the names of all the systems we have

00:27:25.860 protecting ourselves.

00:27:27.960 One thing...

00:27:29.160 It's clockwork.

00:27:30.680 It's so rare if this...

00:27:33.340 If it hangs...

00:27:34.300 We don't have a fail-safe, is what I'm trying to say.

00:27:36.840 We really don't.

00:27:38.060 So what does it look like once the chain reaction begins?

00:27:41.400 Oh, she describes it beautifully, minute by minute.

00:27:45.420 She talks about what's going to happen to you, me,

00:27:47.700 and forget about Los Angeles.

00:27:49.620 Forget about New York.

00:27:51.780 They're gone.

00:27:52.600 The Pentagon has been trying to war game,

00:27:55.240 limited nuclear war for decades,

00:27:58.260 and it never ends up at a limited nuclear war.

00:28:01.360 I mean, at what point does it stop?

00:28:02.820 It always keeps going until everything's gone.

00:28:06.060 And then nuclear winter is something we discovered in what year?

00:28:10.800 Sagan came up with the idea in the early 80s.

00:28:14.120 Early 80s.

00:28:14.540 But if anything, and then he got attacked by the Wall Street Journal

00:28:18.520 and others for bad science, which is bullshit.

00:28:21.940 But the latest scientific findings are that Sagan and company

00:28:27.000 actually downplayed the effects of nuclear winter.

00:28:29.780 So what is nuclear winter?

00:28:30.960 Nuclear winter, for example, now,

00:28:34.060 the latest studies show that a limited nuclear war

00:28:36.780 between India and Pakistan,

00:28:39.280 in which 100 Hiroshima-sized nuclear weapons would be used,

00:28:45.280 would push 5 million tons of smoke, soot, and debris

00:28:49.920 into the atmosphere.

00:28:52.020 It would encircle the stratosphere within two weeks,

00:28:55.200 block the sun's rays from getting to the Earth.

00:28:57.640 Earth, temperatures would plummet to freezing on the Earth.

00:29:00.780 Much of the agriculture would be destroyed.

00:29:03.120 And a limited nuclear war of 100 Hiroshima-sized weapons

00:29:06.940 could kill up to 2 billion people.

00:29:09.800 2 billion.

00:29:10.980 If there was a...

00:29:11.980 We don't have 100.

00:29:13.880 We've got 12,000.

00:29:15.320 And they're not Hiroshima-sized.

00:29:17.280 Many of them are 7 to 70 times the size of the Hiroshima bomb.

00:29:21.860 And so if there was a large-scale use,

00:29:25.200 the cities would burn and would send up so much soot

00:29:29.100 that would block the sun's rays for years,

00:29:32.160 and we might not survive as a species.

00:29:34.840 The likelihood is that all large life forms would probably die off.

00:29:39.960 Some people might be able to get under the ground,

00:29:43.080 you know, would have a mine shaft gap like a strange love.

00:29:45.500 That was the idea in Failsafe.

00:29:47.560 Kubrick didn't know anything about nuclear winter

00:29:49.420 when he did the movie, but he had the underground system

00:29:52.740 being described by the Dr. Strangelove, remember?

00:29:55.660 Yes.

00:29:56.300 By the way, I did a clip.

00:29:58.500 I showed Strangelove to Putin, Dr. Strangelove.

00:30:02.080 I wanted him to sit through that climax.

00:30:05.340 Had he seen it before?

00:30:06.760 No, he never heard of it, I don't think.

00:30:08.980 And he sat through it with me, and it's on film.

00:30:11.760 His reaction is, yes, this is very realistic.

00:30:15.680 Yeah.

00:30:15.920 It could happen, but now our weapons

00:30:18.180 are even much bigger, much bigger.

00:30:20.740 Much worse, yeah.

00:30:21.680 But he said, yeah, this is realistic.

00:30:23.380 Although back in the 60s,

00:30:24.740 we were actually building bigger nuclear weapons

00:30:26.860 than we are today.

00:30:29.000 The Russians tested their 50-megaton weapon,

00:30:33.140 the Tsar Bomba,

00:30:34.100 and it could have been 100 megatons if they'd wanted to.

00:30:37.520 Underground?

00:30:39.820 I'm not sure if it was an underground test.

00:30:41.540 So what do you think Putin's view of nuclear war is?

00:30:44.380 Oh, he knows.

00:30:46.260 He's a very realistic man.

00:30:48.220 This is serious.

00:30:49.080 When he talks, he doesn't bullshit.

00:30:52.000 He talks very straightforwardly,

00:30:54.200 and I think that's, we don't understand that.

00:30:56.820 Our language is a little more rhetorical than his.

00:30:59.440 Yes.

00:30:59.820 He's pretty consistent.

00:31:02.200 He said this is a red line in Ukraine,

00:31:04.380 and he always has maintained that,

00:31:06.540 and he went to war for it.

00:31:07.680 The red line being NATO up against his border.

00:31:10.440 Being the Russian minority in Ukraine.

00:31:13.240 Yes.

00:31:13.500 They moved into Donbass.

00:31:14.980 Donbass and Lugansk were the issues at that time.

00:31:18.820 Now, that was what was at stake.

00:31:22.500 Yes.

00:31:23.080 They promised, the Ukrainians promised to,

00:31:25.380 Minsk one and Minsk two,

00:31:26.800 they promised to respect the autonomy of those people.

00:31:29.780 They never did.

00:31:30.960 They started killing them.

00:31:32.840 And there was terrorism.

00:31:35.060 Ukraine changed in 14, after Maidan.

00:31:39.340 It became truly a dangerous country

00:31:42.580 because they had a lot of zealots in the government.

00:31:46.280 They weren't Nazis,

00:31:48.860 but there were a lot of people like that

00:31:51.200 who were working with the Ukrainians

00:31:53.500 and terrifying the Russians.

00:31:58.300 I don't know.

00:31:59.920 You saw my movie.

00:32:01.000 We've been investigating Ukraine in winter.

00:32:03.900 It's about that Maidan

00:32:05.360 and how these people got into power.

00:32:08.660 That was a violation of the neutrality of Ukraine,

00:32:12.220 which had existed since the end of the Cold War.

00:32:15.760 It's a sad story because we wanted it.

00:32:19.560 It was our entree.

00:32:21.140 We didn't, Obama said,

00:32:23.340 we want neutrality, we want this and that,

00:32:25.140 we want to have a good relationship.

00:32:26.640 And meanwhile, he betrayed it.

00:32:27.920 He betrayed it with the,

00:32:29.940 Maidan broke into violence.

00:32:31.760 I don't know if you know all the details.

00:32:33.220 Yes.

00:32:33.540 There was a lot of killing of the protesters.

00:32:37.100 And the evidence is really pointing heavily

00:32:39.280 to the neo-fascists there who came in

00:32:42.160 and shot these people from these rooftops

00:32:44.720 that were controlled by the Ukrainian side.

00:32:50.900 It's a very sad story.

00:32:53.400 Tucker, let me take it back just a little bit.

00:32:54.780 Because in 2008, that's when the United States

00:33:00.060 called for Ukraine and Georgia to enter NATO.

00:33:03.580 Right.

00:33:04.160 And that was clearly crossing Russia's red line.

00:33:08.980 In fact, our then U.S. ambassador to Russia

00:33:11.720 was William Burns, now the head of the CIA.

00:33:15.140 Burns writes a secret memo back to the White House

00:33:17.580 titled,

00:33:18.080 Nyet means nyet.

00:33:20.360 Don't cross Russia's red lines about Ukraine in NATO.

00:33:25.240 And that's where things begin to change.

00:33:28.140 Putin was furious.

00:33:29.760 He actually came, went to the NATO meeting

00:33:32.180 and had been reaching out to the U.S. since 9-11.

00:33:36.640 I mean, he was the first foreign leader

00:33:38.380 to actually contact the White House

00:33:41.760 and to offer assistance.

00:33:43.280 And he did help us in Afghanistan originally.

00:33:46.860 And then what do we do?

00:33:47.760 In 2002, we abandoned the ABM Treaty.

00:33:51.220 He was, that was a horrible blow to them.

00:33:54.120 Then we invade Iraq,

00:33:56.140 which they were totally opposed to.

00:33:58.840 And so then the relations begin to deteriorate.

00:34:02.180 I was saying before about Krauthammer,

00:34:05.020 in 2002, he revisits his idea of the unipolar moment.

00:34:09.420 He says, I was wrong in 1990.

00:34:11.020 It's not the unipolar moment.

00:34:12.520 It's the unipolar era.

00:34:15.020 And the U.S. is going to dominate the world

00:34:16.980 for the foreseeable future.

00:34:18.720 It could be 100 years, not 30 or 40 years.

00:34:22.020 And that's when they all,

00:34:23.560 the neocons started coming out of the frame.

00:34:26.260 They started appearing everywhere

00:34:28.640 and saying the importance of American empire,

00:34:32.260 that we're going to change the chessboard.

00:34:35.400 When Wesley Clark went to the Pentagon,

00:34:38.180 they told him we had plans

00:34:39.480 to have regime change in seven different countries.

00:34:43.240 Yes.

00:34:43.440 And what was on that list?

00:34:45.680 Iraq, Iran, Syria.

00:34:48.540 Libya, Sudan.

00:34:49.100 Libya, yeah.

00:34:50.180 I mean, you go through-

00:34:51.080 Iran, yeah.

00:34:52.440 And so that was the game plan.

00:34:54.500 What's happening now in Syria was part of a game plan-

00:34:56.720 And Iran was the last-

00:34:57.720 That they were explicit about.

00:34:58.880 Iran was certainly-

00:34:59.160 Biggest prize of all was Iran.

00:35:00.300 Certainly crucial there.

00:35:01.500 Sudan, Somalia.

00:35:02.480 They had a lot of different countries

00:35:04.340 we were going to overturn.

00:35:05.960 And they had this vision that we could do it.

00:35:08.600 On January 5th, 2003,

00:35:11.420 the New York Times Sunday Magazine section,

00:35:13.880 big headline,

00:35:15.140 American empire, get used to it.

00:35:17.960 I mean, they weren't even hiding it.

00:35:19.900 They were proud about it at that point

00:35:22.120 until things started to go haywire

00:35:24.300 in Afghanistan and Iraq.

00:35:27.180 And then finally-

00:35:29.000 And Libya.

00:35:30.200 And Libya's a little later.

00:35:31.580 And also include Serbia.

00:35:32.860 Go back to 99.

00:35:33.960 Well, yeah.

00:35:34.400 The Russians were furious about what happened in Serbia.

00:35:36.900 Can I ask, not to digress,

00:35:38.460 but what was the point of the intervention in Serbia,

00:35:42.840 the post-Yugoslav interventions?

00:35:44.780 We announced it as we were catching the butchers,

00:35:49.980 the people who were dictators in Serbia.

00:35:53.020 Yeah.

00:35:53.400 And that was our excuse.

00:35:55.760 But essentially, it was a much more important

00:36:00.520 destabilization of, we bombed a city in Europe.

00:36:04.920 Yes.

00:36:05.480 Belgrade for 99 days.

00:36:07.180 I mean, think about it.

00:36:08.520 We came into the war and called it,

00:36:11.860 it's a complicated war.

00:36:13.380 There were two peace treaties.

00:36:14.620 Don't have time here to go into it.

00:36:16.480 But essentially, we wanted to balkanize Yugoslavia,

00:36:20.180 which we did.

00:36:21.040 Yes.

00:36:21.260 The same way we're going to balkanize Syria now.

00:36:23.660 Yes.

00:36:24.080 This is American policy.

00:36:25.520 You divide, conquer, divide, conquer.

00:36:27.620 Balkanize it.

00:36:29.140 Cut it up into,

00:36:30.260 Kosovo was a violation at the deepest level

00:36:32.640 of everything we're talking about.

00:36:34.360 We talk about the rules-based order.

00:36:35.800 Yes.

00:36:36.140 They had a referendum that was a little bit shady.

00:36:42.340 And we said, they're free.

00:36:43.860 You know, they're no longer part of Serbia.

00:36:48.220 That kind of, Kosovo was a gangster state.

00:36:50.420 What became, it's a whole, I was there.

00:36:53.060 I don't know.

00:36:53.440 I can't tell you.

00:36:54.620 It's grim what happened to them.

00:36:56.520 What's interesting, though, is as that was happening

00:36:58.440 and NATO was bombing

00:36:59.400 and Wes Clark was becoming famous and all that,

00:37:02.460 I don't think I heard a single debate

00:37:04.600 in the United States over why we were doing this.

00:37:07.380 Did we?

00:37:08.140 Not much, no.

00:37:09.360 But in Russia, you would have heard it very, very different.

00:37:11.760 Something like 96% of the Russians

00:37:13.920 thought that what was going on there was a war crime.

00:37:17.620 Yes.

00:37:17.860 I mean, the Russians were a totally opposite view.

00:37:20.420 And the U.S. was establishing

00:37:21.740 the rules-based international order,

00:37:23.660 which meant instead of going through the United Nations,

00:37:26.420 which they couldn't have gotten it through,

00:37:28.200 they did it on their own.

00:37:30.440 Militarily.

00:37:31.060 Yes.

00:37:31.660 And don't forget, in Iraq, when we went in there,

00:37:34.100 Germany, France, and Russia did not join.

00:37:36.520 They did not agree with that.

00:37:37.960 Schroeder and...

00:37:38.920 Old Europe.

00:37:39.640 ...Chirac.

00:37:40.480 It's important because what's happened now is the opposite.

00:37:43.460 France and Germany are all four.

00:37:46.040 And the U.K. leading the charge.

00:37:47.220 So there's been a change in values.

00:37:50.340 And you say, where?

00:37:51.040 I don't know why.

00:37:51.840 That I think there's some kind of...

00:37:55.000 NATO is not the one,

00:37:57.060 but it's sort of an elitism

00:37:58.340 that has come into being in Europe,

00:38:01.000 an elitism of the leaders

00:38:02.160 coming from a university

00:38:03.360 where they're trained to be leaders,

00:38:06.720 but they all think alike.

00:38:08.180 That's what surprises me.

00:38:09.580 I don't...

00:38:10.580 Frankly, Farage, whatever he says,

00:38:13.000 he's different.

00:38:14.080 At least he says something that's different.

00:38:15.860 Le Pen says something different.

00:38:17.500 Yes.

00:38:17.700 So that's why these people are appealing to people

00:38:19.800 because they're saying there has to be some peace.

00:38:22.720 This is madness.

00:38:23.880 And it's why they're the most attacked.

00:38:26.440 That's part of it, too.

00:38:27.520 The media is in on it.

00:38:28.980 And they're very, very critical of people who differ.

00:38:33.120 In this country,

00:38:34.100 you've noticed the censorship has gotten far.

00:38:35.900 You suffered from it.

00:38:37.740 Yeah, well, certainly I suffered from it.

00:38:39.740 I mean, it's...

00:38:40.800 You're insulated because you have a tenure.

00:38:43.380 How many Oscars have you won?

00:38:47.340 I won three.

00:38:48.680 You've won three Oscars.

00:38:49.400 That was a long time ago.

00:38:50.120 Right.

00:38:51.700 No, but essentially I got cut off

00:38:53.520 because I did...

00:38:54.740 The Putin interviews didn't help me in Hollywood.

00:38:57.160 But you'd been cut off before then, I think, hadn't you?

00:38:59.340 No, my ability to make films was choked a little.

00:39:04.780 You know, there is...

00:39:05.640 After 2000, things changed in the United States

00:39:08.440 because we became the victim.

00:39:11.500 We were suddenly the patriotism of the soldiers.

00:39:14.940 We started Pearl Harbor, Black Hawk Down.

00:39:19.260 All the films were different mentality

00:39:22.300 than what I was presenting,

00:39:24.100 which was a reality, I thought,

00:39:25.960 to the American public.

00:39:27.600 That this military has to be...

00:39:32.300 Why are we doing these military expeditions overseas?

00:39:35.980 This is like in Vietnam.

00:39:37.700 This is what was my main point.

00:39:39.780 I kept going at it and going at it.

00:39:42.040 And I guess all of a sudden it became okay.

00:39:45.660 But the people never voted.

00:39:47.600 There was no candidate.

00:39:48.620 There was no election that said,

00:39:50.060 I'm against any empire.

00:39:52.060 I want to bring it back,

00:39:53.260 like back in William Jennings Bryan's back in 1898.

00:39:57.720 I don't want empire.

00:39:59.160 We never got the choice.

00:40:00.920 We swallowed it.

00:40:02.640 Let me give a different timeline on Oliver's history

00:40:05.520 that I see it from...

00:40:08.400 I mean, Oliver was walking on water in Hollywood

00:40:11.520 with Platoon, Wall Street,

00:40:14.480 born on the 4th of July.

00:40:16.080 Yeah.

00:40:16.600 And then he made JFK.

00:40:18.620 And then everything changed.

00:40:20.380 And they started attacking JFK

00:40:23.120 seven, eight months before the film was produced.

00:40:26.660 I remember.

00:40:27.080 Based on a stolen first draft of the script.

00:40:30.040 At the New York Times, Los Angeles Times.

00:40:34.220 Watching the post, all that.

00:40:35.680 They were all going after him.

00:40:38.060 And a conspiracy theorist.

00:40:40.280 And, you know, and it's a very controversial movie,

00:40:42.900 which takes a lot of risks.

00:40:45.100 And Oliver admitted at the time,

00:40:47.140 he didn't have all the answers,

00:40:48.260 but he wanted to get the questions out there

00:40:50.180 and make people think about some of these issues.

00:40:53.000 But at that point,

00:40:54.220 he went from being Hollywood's golden boy

00:40:56.220 to being the conspiracy monger.

00:40:58.360 I remember it very well.

00:40:59.340 And the late night comics,

00:41:00.480 who are always tools of the existing order,

00:41:03.520 jumped in.

00:41:04.100 But why do you think that film and that topic, I mean...

00:41:09.080 Because Americans had already disagreed

00:41:11.540 with the Warren Commission.

00:41:13.140 Yes.

00:41:13.460 And even before Oliver's movie came out,

00:41:15.500 the overwhelming majority of Americans

00:41:17.200 thought, didn't think that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone.

00:41:20.620 They didn't, from the very beginning,

00:41:21.960 find that credible at all.

00:41:23.600 In fact, four of the seven members

00:41:25.140 of the Warren Commission didn't think that

00:41:28.440 or thought that there was likely a second gun.

00:41:31.320 Nor Robert Kennedy, nor Lyndon Johnson.

00:41:34.360 Connolly.

00:41:35.280 Jackie Kennedy.

00:41:36.420 So many people.

00:41:37.520 Hale Boggs.

00:41:39.240 Fidel Castro.

00:41:40.340 Charles de Gaulle.

00:41:42.260 Various British leaders.

00:41:43.800 Harold Macmillan.

00:41:45.580 Did you ever talk to Castro?

00:41:46.720 You knew Castro.

00:41:47.420 Yeah, sure.

00:41:48.180 What did he say about it?

00:41:49.080 Oh, it's...

00:41:50.900 He was so sad because he really was like Kennedy

00:41:54.120 and he was hoping for a deal.

00:41:55.900 They were in backdoor negotiations.

00:41:58.180 Kennedy understood the Cuban Revolution

00:41:59.800 and he said, eloquent about it,

00:42:02.180 he understood why the people were...

00:42:04.060 Cuba had been the most corrupt island

00:42:06.140 in the American Empire and the Caribbean

00:42:08.020 since the Platinum in 2001.

00:42:11.880 1901.

00:42:12.780 Yeah.

00:42:13.460 But a lot of this is economic.

00:42:15.140 Let's not lose sight of that.

00:42:16.280 You see, what they got after World War II

00:42:18.180 was an economic empire,

00:42:20.360 which is...

00:42:20.880 It was working.

00:42:21.920 People were investing in the war economy

00:42:23.720 and they were prosperous.

00:42:24.820 Yes.

00:42:25.740 But you saw the budgets grew and grew and grew.

00:42:27.900 Here we are now

00:42:28.780 with a trillion dollar defense budget, right?

00:42:32.220 Which is insane

00:42:33.000 because we have how many bases abroad?

00:42:35.180 800 bases?

00:42:36.240 That was never the intention of Eisenhower

00:42:38.020 or any of those people

00:42:38.920 to have...

00:42:39.860 To control the world,

00:42:40.780 to dominate every place in the world.

00:42:43.560 This is Asia and Europe.

00:42:45.720 And South America.

00:42:47.720 This is a gigantic empire.

00:42:49.040 Do you realize how busy they are

00:42:50.420 every day trying to run this thing?

00:42:53.300 Everything is coming...

00:42:54.400 Personally, I believe there's an invasion coming up.

00:42:59.360 It's either going to be Iran

00:43:00.500 or I hope not.

00:43:02.860 Israel is a proxy army for us.

00:43:05.640 Certainly Trump supports them,

00:43:07.000 and you know that.

00:43:08.120 Trump supports...

00:43:09.380 Trump is very zealous about Israel.

00:43:11.960 Scary.

00:43:12.300 But also don't overlook Venezuela,

00:43:14.800 which is still one of the richest countries in the world

00:43:17.260 with all its oil.

00:43:19.180 Some people believe that is an easy target

00:43:22.360 for Trump to knock off.

00:43:24.760 I pray not,

00:43:25.920 because it's going to be a battle.

00:43:27.940 But this doesn't end,

00:43:29.360 is what I'm saying.

00:43:29.960 They plot every day.

00:43:32.560 Imagine the world map.

00:43:34.420 You got the China challenge, right?

00:43:37.160 Sending ships constantly stating our supremacy, right?

00:43:43.320 In the seas, freedom of the seas.

00:43:45.140 Freedom of navigation.

00:43:47.560 And China, it's crazy.

00:43:52.460 I mean, I understand economically.

00:43:54.280 Take it on.

00:43:54.940 Be competitive with China.

00:43:56.140 Fine.

00:43:57.520 But we can be economically friendly.

00:44:01.000 In other words, we can be competitors.

00:44:02.500 I don't see why we can't be in business together.

00:44:05.180 As with Russia.

00:44:06.220 Russia was a capitalist country.

00:44:07.940 It's no longer a communist country.

00:44:10.180 Yes.

00:44:10.420 So as much as we hate communism,

00:44:12.840 it doesn't make sense to antagonize Russia.

00:44:16.780 They can be our partners in climate change

00:44:18.800 in so many ways.

00:44:20.200 Their nuclear energy industry

00:44:21.600 is one of the best in the world,

00:44:22.860 as is China.

00:44:24.020 They can teach us.

00:44:25.640 We can build SMRs in quantity

00:44:28.440 if we wanted to.

00:44:29.960 We can really solve climate change.

00:44:31.820 We don't have to sit here victims of it.

00:44:34.820 But this is all, this is Kennedy thinking.

00:44:37.480 This is what we need.

00:44:38.560 We need leadership.

00:44:39.600 We need a de Gaulle.

00:44:40.980 Somebody who has a vision of the world.

00:44:44.780 Trump, to some degree, has a vision.

00:44:46.840 Oliver's stressing the economic roots of all this.

00:44:49.320 I do.

00:44:49.800 Yes.

00:44:50.140 I wanted to go back,

00:44:51.440 because in 1948,

00:44:53.240 George Kennan lays it out.

00:44:54.980 In a secret memo,

00:44:56.020 George Kennan,

00:44:56.720 who was the architect of the Cold War,

00:44:59.200 writes a memo and says,

00:45:00.420 we have 6.3% of the world's population,

00:45:04.300 yet we control 50% of the world's wealth.

00:45:08.460 He said,

00:45:09.420 the challenge before us today

00:45:11.180 is to maintain this position of disparity.

00:45:14.400 And we're not going to do it with idealistic slogans.

00:45:17.200 We're going to do it with pure power concepts.

00:45:20.160 He later regretted that.

00:45:21.760 He later regretted the Mr. X article.

00:45:24.120 And he becomes really very, very worried

00:45:27.960 about the threat of nuclear war in his later life.

00:45:31.040 And he lived to over 100 years old.

00:45:33.980 But, you know...

00:45:34.720 In 97, he condemned...

00:45:35.960 He condemned Clinton's...

00:45:37.220 Condemned the NATO expansion, for sure.

00:45:39.120 In 99, Clinton expanded NATO.

00:45:41.280 Yeah.

00:45:41.500 And Kennan was horrified.

00:45:45.700 Horrified.

00:45:46.380 So we were in a meeting here at TCN the other day,

00:45:48.680 and I looked around the room,

00:45:49.660 and every other person had a kind of ruddy vitality.

00:45:55.100 Sort of pink cheeks, alertness, bright eyes,

00:45:59.500 full mental acuity,

00:46:01.300 and a cheerfulness you could almost smell.

00:46:04.300 And I asked,

00:46:05.440 why does everyone look so good?

00:46:07.920 And part of the answer, of course,

00:46:09.180 is they like what we do for a living.

00:46:11.180 It's really interesting.

00:46:12.120 We think it's important.

00:46:13.520 But another reason everyone looks so good

00:46:16.060 is because they'd all had a great night sleep.

00:46:20.700 I'm not making this up.

00:46:22.420 Almost everybody here uses a new sleep technology

00:46:26.540 from a company called 8Sleep.

00:46:28.820 They sent it to us,

00:46:30.060 and everyone here loves it.

00:46:31.880 It's called The Pod.

00:46:33.260 It's a high-tech mattress cover, effectively,

00:46:35.560 that you add to your existing bed.

00:46:37.080 You don't need a new bed or anything like that.

00:46:38.820 You just throw this over what you have.

00:46:40.740 What it does is adjust the temperature of your bed,

00:46:45.360 warmer or cooler, depending on what you want.

00:46:47.600 And it maintains an ideal sleeping environment all night long.

00:46:51.740 So I didn't know this,

00:46:52.800 but as you progress through different phases of sleep,

00:46:55.080 your body's needs change.

00:46:57.680 And 8Sleep automatically keeps things

00:46:59.940 exactly where they should be in the sweet spot

00:47:02.820 through the entire night.

00:47:04.520 It's been proven to increase the quality of your sleep,

00:47:08.200 the amount you sleep, every night.

00:47:10.740 It improves your recovery time from physical exertion,

00:47:13.240 and it may even improve your cognitive performance

00:47:16.140 and enhance your overall health.

00:47:18.520 It seems to be doing that in our office.

00:47:21.080 So it learns and adapts to your sleep patterns over time

00:47:24.000 and automatically adjusts temperatures throughout the night

00:47:26.200 through each phase of sleep.

00:47:28.380 And it does this independently for each sleeper

00:47:32.600 on either side of the bed.

00:47:34.080 That's pretty cool.

00:47:35.400 So you can sleep well and feel much better

00:47:38.940 and be more effective the next morning as we are here.

00:47:42.900 Try it for yourself.

00:47:44.140 Go to 8sleep.com slash Tucker.

00:47:46.900 Use the promo code Tucker

00:47:48.160 to get an extra 350 bucks off the Pod 4 Ultra.

00:47:52.480 You can try it with zero obligation for a month,

00:47:54.820 and if you don't like it, just send it back.

00:47:56.700 Again, that's 8sleep.com slash Tucker.

00:47:59.720 Better sleep today

00:48:01.740 and look great in your morning meetings,

00:48:04.440 as our guys do.

00:48:19.260 Yeah.

00:48:19.920 But you're arguing that it's more than just economics

00:48:22.280 that are driving us.

00:48:22.880 Well, so it's economics, it's geopolitics,

00:48:25.260 it's military ideological domination.

00:48:28.280 I don't think it's an either or.

00:48:29.920 Some people make that mistake and say,

00:48:31.480 it's this or it's that.

00:48:32.860 I mean, there are a lot of different people

00:48:34.620 involved in planning this,

00:48:36.020 and they're motivated by different things.

00:48:37.600 No, I say that was the original reason

00:48:39.660 we were antagonistic to Russia.

00:48:42.400 Yes.

00:48:42.680 It wasn't military.

00:48:44.120 It was economic.

00:48:45.600 Because we've had strikes in this country,

00:48:48.060 and we were trying to control labor.

00:48:49.800 And the large corporations

00:48:52.440 were in a deathly struggle with labor.

00:48:56.700 And up until the end of World War II,

00:48:58.500 Taft-Hartley, that was a big issue.

00:49:01.100 There were so many strikes during the war,

00:49:03.040 people don't even take that into account.

00:49:05.740 There was huge strikes in Detroit,

00:49:08.720 cars, steel.

00:49:10.580 And after the war, it was continuing.

00:49:12.600 And until Taft-Hartley came along,

00:49:15.080 which allowed them to close down any strike

00:49:17.940 that was dangerous to the national security, I think.

00:49:21.340 But in the 30s, that's what motivated Roosevelt's turn to the left.

00:49:25.140 So the Cold War comes out of economics, too.

00:49:27.600 It's very much so.

00:49:28.780 The labor movement was huge in the United States in the 30s.

00:49:32.380 The formation of the CIO,

00:49:33.940 the organizing of steel, auto,

00:49:36.300 I mean, all of the big industries were organizing.

00:49:39.520 And who were the leaders of the organizing?

00:49:41.780 The communists.

00:49:43.420 You know, there was a reason why they had to shut down

00:49:45.400 the Communist Party during the, quote-unquote, McCarthy period.

00:49:49.360 And McCarthy's a latecomer to McCarthyism.

00:49:51.940 But right, it starts in 47.

00:49:54.320 And Truman, according to Clark Clifford,

00:49:56.840 his main domestic policy advisor,

00:49:58.800 Truman, they said,

00:50:00.240 Truman knew that this was baloney,

00:50:02.100 all this stuff about communist infiltration.

00:50:04.280 But the Republicans started to attack in 1946.

00:50:08.720 The chair of the Republican Party in 46

00:50:10.800 says it's a choice between republicanism and communism.

00:50:15.600 And so we're beginning this anti-communist hysteria

00:50:18.580 very, very early after the war.

00:50:20.980 And then Truman takes the bait

00:50:22.860 and has the loyalty hearings,

00:50:26.300 which leads gradually into McCarthyism.

00:50:29.080 So first in 47,

00:50:30.240 first they say that the real threat

00:50:32.440 is the atomic scientists.

00:50:35.720 But they quickly decide

00:50:37.260 that the one they're going to investigate

00:50:38.700 first is Hollywood.

00:50:40.300 Right?

00:50:40.920 So then they have the Hollywood 10

00:50:43.200 and then all those other hearings

00:50:44.940 that were taking place

00:50:45.900 because they were very concerned even then

00:50:48.180 about people who might influence American thinking.

00:50:51.520 And Hollywood was a hotbed of leftists.

00:50:53.860 Kind of an irony, though,

00:50:54.820 that Oliver Stone,

00:50:56.620 after winning three Oscars,

00:50:58.000 would be excommunicated from Hollywood

00:51:00.400 by the same people for thought crimes.

00:51:02.460 Yeah, I did.

00:51:02.720 I didn't get excommunicated yet.

00:51:05.180 Please, don't.

00:51:07.660 That you would be even vigorously criticized

00:51:10.920 is a little strange.

00:51:12.280 No, it's very hard for me.

00:51:13.220 I mean, a military-type theme,

00:51:15.480 these kind of things I'm talking about with you,

00:51:17.420 I couldn't do this as a movie now.

00:51:19.440 I could do the Putin interviews

00:51:20.480 because that was a documentary.

00:51:21.840 Yes.

00:51:22.640 And I could do nuclear energy

00:51:25.340 because I cared about that.

00:51:26.920 That was a documentary, pro-nuclear energy.

00:51:30.100 So I'm interested in ideas,

00:51:32.520 but in terms of drama, I have to curb it.

00:51:35.040 I can't go to where my imagination wants to go.

00:51:39.400 Why?

00:51:42.460 Well, they say to you,

00:51:43.680 they never tell you the truth.

00:51:44.800 They tell you too controversial,

00:51:46.500 too political, too this, too that.

00:51:49.820 I don't think I've lost my touch.

00:51:51.840 But I have to live with it.

00:51:54.480 It's okay.

00:51:55.180 I live with it.

00:51:55.720 I'm writing a book, another book.

00:51:57.260 I wrote a book or a memoir,

00:51:58.980 a first part of my life.

00:52:00.320 I'm going to write another one from 40 on,

00:52:02.220 from the age of 40 to wherever I am now.

00:52:05.580 So are there any filmmakers left in Hollywood

00:52:10.460 who can take on the biggest questions,

00:52:12.900 like the power of the infillages?

00:52:13.860 That's the thing.

00:52:14.340 They don't take on the...

00:52:15.200 Oppenheimer is an interesting movie.

00:52:16.900 I liked it as a movie.

00:52:18.500 I loved it.

00:52:19.060 There are some flaws in it, you know.

00:52:21.120 The big flaw being that Truman is honestly pictured

00:52:26.160 knocking Oppenheimer.

00:52:27.660 Remember that?

00:52:28.100 That's a great scene in the movie.

00:52:30.000 But what's ignored in the film is,

00:52:32.080 for example, General Groves.

00:52:34.340 Leslie Groves is one of the most anti-communist generals

00:52:37.980 we ever had.

00:52:38.560 A total cold warrior from beginning to end.

00:52:41.040 And he said, quote, the quotes in the book,

00:52:45.100 from the beginning, the Manhattan Project

00:52:47.540 was created to destroy, to address the Russian Empire.

00:52:52.800 You know the line?

00:52:53.580 Yeah, of course.

00:52:54.500 Nothing more.

00:52:55.480 It was not about Japan.

00:52:57.100 It was about Russia.

00:52:58.020 He says, from two weeks after the time

00:53:00.400 I was appointed to head the Manhattan Project,

00:53:03.340 I had treated as if the Soviets were the enemy.

00:53:06.900 And that the project was directed in that way.

00:53:09.720 So the bombing in Japan was really aimed

00:53:12.140 as a message to the Soviets.

00:53:14.160 Well, yeah.

00:53:14.680 The Russians were in the war at that time.

00:53:16.440 We knew that Japan was finished.

00:53:18.340 But we had to keep going in those crucial few days

00:53:21.880 to establish the weapon.

00:53:24.820 And Leslie Groves, I mean, Matt Damon played him.

00:53:28.160 Very good performance.

00:53:29.980 But I don't know.

00:53:32.260 That's not Leslie Groves.

00:53:33.880 It's not Leslie Groves.

00:53:35.120 That's the most warm and fuzzy Leslie Groves

00:53:38.440 you're ever going to see.

00:53:40.240 And it doesn't go into the issue of whether,

00:53:42.380 why we, Oppenheimer, I don't know.

00:53:44.200 I'm sure Oppenheimer got an inkling of it later, no?

00:53:47.400 Yes.

00:53:47.720 At the time.

00:53:48.440 Yeah.

00:53:48.700 But he said that when he testified,

00:53:50.320 he said, we didn't know beans

00:53:51.420 about the military situation.

00:53:53.780 We didn't know that Japan could have been made

00:53:55.960 to surrender without using the bomb.

00:53:58.420 You know, so Oppenheimer later effectively apologized

00:54:01.220 for supporting the use of the bomb.

00:54:03.400 Yeah, and then he got into trouble.

00:54:05.620 And that's when he, he really, he was in trouble.

00:54:07.320 And then he opposed the development of a hydrogen bomb.

00:54:10.100 Once you cross the Rubicon, you have to cross.

00:54:12.760 So speaking, you're across the Rubicon.

00:54:14.960 Yes, I have crossed it.

00:54:16.340 But when you came back from interviewing Putin

00:54:19.420 for your documentary, it was released.

00:54:20.840 What was the reaction like in L.A.?

00:54:24.700 People, they don't talk to me publicly.

00:54:28.960 It's always behind closed doors, right?

00:54:31.000 Did you hesitate before doing it?

00:54:32.600 Not really, because it was fascinating.

00:54:34.340 New material my producer set up.

00:54:37.040 No, I was doing Snowden in 2013,

00:54:39.460 which was a very brave movie

00:54:42.020 because we were dealing with a man who was exiled,

00:54:44.260 who I thought was a hero and was treated as if he was a traitor.

00:54:48.520 So I wanted to make that movie.

00:54:49.860 In making that movie, I had to go to Moscow to finish it.

00:54:53.340 And I met Putin there.

00:54:55.280 And we talked about Snowden first,

00:54:56.920 because that was where we met.

00:54:58.940 And what he said about Snowden, as he says in the movie,

00:55:02.200 is, it's very true.

00:55:03.500 He didn't like what Snowden did.

00:55:05.260 No.

00:55:06.420 But, and he would have punished him the same,

00:55:09.280 probably the same way.

00:55:10.320 But he understood the mechanics of it.

00:55:13.600 Meanwhile,

00:55:17.040 we got to know each other.

00:55:18.460 And my producer said,

00:55:20.920 let's do an interview with him,

00:55:22.560 because he's a crucial figure right now.

00:55:24.840 Yeah, we didn't know what was coming.

00:55:26.880 You know, we didn't know about the coup at that point.

00:55:31.580 So we set up these interviews and we were talking.

00:55:35.900 The coup had just happened at that point.

00:55:38.200 So he was upset.

00:55:40.180 And I, as an American, didn't really know the situation.

00:55:43.960 So I was treating it like, you know, Ukraine, okay.

00:55:47.780 It's, what's the big deal?

00:55:48.960 I mean, it's another one of the countries like,

00:55:51.420 like, like Georgia, I thought.

00:55:53.640 Yeah, it's still a Warsaw Pact country.

00:55:54.940 Like Romania.

00:55:56.100 And he looked at me,

00:55:57.220 no, it's not a big deal for us, Mr. Stone.

00:56:01.120 And he explained in the movie,

00:56:02.960 what, I think he says that on tape.

00:56:04.900 And he, I understand Ukraine better and better.

00:56:08.660 But at first I didn't, I talked to Ukrainians.

00:56:12.720 It's, it was evident.

00:56:15.320 I mean, it was coming.

00:56:16.360 This, this thing is very dangerous.

00:56:18.380 It was a, it was a firecracker from 2014 on

00:56:21.120 because it was a violation of,

00:56:23.500 at the heart of the Soviet empire,

00:56:25.260 of the Russian empire.

00:56:26.620 That underbelly is where the invasions happened.

00:56:29.480 So it seems like we're relying now on Putin's restraint.

00:56:36.380 It's not just him, it's Russia.

00:56:38.700 There, if he goes, if he's out

00:56:40.380 and if Biden gets his wish

00:56:42.340 and all these nutcases want to remove him,

00:56:44.860 take him out, fine, kill him.

00:56:46.380 But he's not going to solve it.

00:56:47.800 Russia is Russia.

00:56:48.920 It's going to stay loyal to what it believes in.

00:56:51.640 There is a, what, they don't have a democratic vote,

00:56:54.920 but they have a consensus.

00:56:56.880 If Putin was not doing what the public,

00:56:59.060 the people want it, he'd be out.

00:57:01.300 That's the way it works.

00:57:02.560 It takes maybe a couple of years more,

00:57:04.380 but it doesn't, that's the way Russia works.

00:57:07.940 If the czar didn't work out, they get rid of him,

00:57:11.140 you know, and they shot him too.

00:57:13.160 Remember, that's one of the reasons

00:57:14.280 the Japanese were terrified of the Russians

00:57:17.080 and why they surrendered

00:57:18.080 because they didn't want the Russians

00:57:19.600 to invade the homeland.

00:57:21.520 That was a big fear.

00:57:24.860 But, no, the Russian people are very strong,

00:57:27.540 but they, they're passive.

00:57:29.060 So they, they talk in certain ways.

00:57:31.320 You know, we believe the Moscow crowd,

00:57:33.040 but the Moscow crowd doesn't talk for Russia.

00:57:35.600 It's, it's a bigger consensus.

00:57:37.740 But you're making an important point, though,

00:57:39.980 that we are in many ways

00:57:41.540 dependent on Putin's restraint at this point.

00:57:44.640 Absolutely.

00:57:45.300 Because we keep,

00:57:46.300 today he just made a statement

00:57:48.000 that the U.S. keeps crossing

00:57:49.680 all of Russia's red lines.

00:57:52.280 And if they keep doing this,

00:57:53.500 this is going to explode.

00:57:54.640 I mean, Biden for a long time

00:57:57.220 refused to give permission to Ukraine

00:57:59.860 to use the attack and missiles.

00:58:01.880 And he said that it would be too provocative

00:58:05.100 and could possibly lead to a much broader war

00:58:08.060 between the United States and Russia.

00:58:10.200 And he refused to do it.

00:58:11.960 But like he did with every other weapon system,

00:58:14.540 he finally caved in.

00:58:16.780 And so Ukraine has struck Russia several times now

00:58:19.660 with these attack missiles inside of Russia,

00:58:22.480 the long-range army missiles.

00:58:24.860 And then you got the British stormtrooper,

00:58:27.480 storm shadow missiles.

00:58:29.620 You got the French missiles, the scout missiles.

00:58:32.300 The German ones haven't been used yet.

00:58:34.420 And in response to that,

00:58:37.020 Russia changed this nuclear doctrine

00:58:39.620 and said that,

00:58:41.280 they lowered it and said that

00:58:42.940 if Russia is attacked by a country

00:58:46.660 with the support of a nuclear power,

00:58:48.780 then they're going to consider that

00:58:50.500 an attack by both countries,

00:58:52.980 meaning the United States and Ukraine,

00:58:55.360 and both countries become legitimate targets

00:58:57.860 for all of Russia's weapons,

00:59:00.300 meaning nuclear weapons.

00:59:02.000 And so far,

00:59:03.020 then how did Russia respond?

00:59:05.300 With the Ereshnik missile,

00:59:07.020 this brand new hypersonic medium-range missile.

00:59:11.420 And it was devastating

00:59:12.960 because it goes at 10 times the speed of sound,

00:59:15.760 and it's a hypersonic missile,

00:59:17.640 and they can't be shot down.

00:59:19.800 And they've used it once so far,

00:59:21.840 but there's some warnings that

00:59:23.280 they could take out Kiev,

00:59:25.860 or at least the leadership there.

00:59:27.940 They could hit the bases in Poland,

00:59:30.180 wherever they want.

00:59:32.160 So just for some context,

00:59:33.820 what is the difference

00:59:36.400 between the bomb,

00:59:38.440 the atomic bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima,

00:59:40.260 and the current nuclear arsenal?

00:59:43.880 Like, how much more advanced

00:59:44.920 are nuclear weapons now?

00:59:47.260 They are so much more advanced.

00:59:49.120 In fact, Obama,

00:59:51.400 who won the Nobel Peace Prize

00:59:53.060 for his speech in Prague...

00:59:55.340 For existing, yeah.

00:59:56.140 ...in 2009,

00:59:57.640 calling for nuclear abolition,

00:59:59.800 he's the one who put into process

01:00:02.060 the policy of modernizing

01:00:04.440 America's nuclear arsenal.

01:00:06.240 It was a trade-off

01:00:07.120 with the Senator Kyle from Arizona

01:00:08.860 in order to get them

01:00:10.100 to support the New START Treaty.

01:00:12.680 And so what does modernizing

01:00:14.060 the delivery systems

01:00:15.500 and the weapons mean?

01:00:17.120 Making them more efficient

01:00:18.380 and more lethal.

01:00:20.440 And then Trump doubled down on that

01:00:22.640 in his nuclear posture review

01:00:24.220 in 2018.

01:00:26.300 And so Obama said,

01:00:27.880 we're going to spend a trillion dollars

01:00:29.600 over 30 years to modernize.

01:00:31.740 Now it's closer to two trillion,

01:00:33.660 and we're doing it.

01:00:34.660 But not only is the United States

01:00:36.280 modernizing,

01:00:37.180 all nine nuclear powers

01:00:39.640 are modernizing their arsenals.

01:00:42.140 And for the first time,

01:00:43.240 you know,

01:00:43.420 at the peak of the Cold War in 1986,

01:00:45.860 we had about 70,000

01:00:48.620 nuclear weapons in the world.

01:00:50.540 We got it down to now 12,000,

01:00:53.700 but for the first time,

01:00:55.160 we're increasing the arsenals.

01:00:57.420 You know,

01:00:57.760 we've been trying to get rid

01:00:58.840 of these hellish weapons

01:01:00.440 since they were first started.

01:01:02.280 And initially,

01:01:05.260 even Eisenhower supported

01:01:07.500 giving them to the UN

01:01:08.640 and letting the UN destroy them.

01:01:10.720 And Eisenhower also

01:01:12.420 was the only president

01:01:14.600 who's openly critical

01:01:16.200 of the US dropping

01:01:17.680 the atomic bombs in 1945.

01:01:20.660 You know,

01:01:20.920 and he criticized it at the time.

01:01:22.800 What did he say?

01:01:23.520 He said when Stimson briefed him

01:01:25.600 at Potsdam

01:01:26.380 that the United States

01:01:27.520 was about to use

01:01:28.420 the atomic bomb,

01:01:29.320 Eisenhower wrote

01:01:31.080 on a couple of occasions

01:01:31.940 that I got more and more depressed

01:01:33.560 just listening to him,

01:01:34.880 but I didn't volunteer anything

01:01:36.300 because my war in Europe was over.

01:01:38.280 Then he asked me what I thought.

01:01:40.060 And I told him

01:01:40.780 I was against it for two reasons.

01:01:43.020 Number one,

01:01:43.580 the Japanese were already defeated

01:01:45.180 and trying to surrender

01:01:46.520 and we didn't need to use it.

01:01:48.240 And number two,

01:01:48.900 I hated to see our country

01:01:50.120 be the first to use such a weapon.

01:01:52.460 The US had eight

01:01:53.540 five-star admirals and generals

01:01:55.120 in 1945.

01:01:56.940 Seven of the eight

01:01:57.740 are officially on the record

01:01:59.300 saying the atomic bombs

01:02:00.520 were either militarily unnecessary,

01:02:02.720 morally reprehensible,

01:02:04.180 or both.

01:02:05.440 And the other,

01:02:06.340 the eighth was Marshall

01:02:07.600 who said that

01:02:08.600 the Soviet invasion alone

01:02:10.140 would likely leverage

01:02:11.620 the Japanese

01:02:13.180 into surrender by itself.

01:02:15.200 So they all knew

01:02:16.100 that the atomic bombs

01:02:17.180 were unnecessary.

01:02:19.000 Truman knew it

01:02:19.840 as well as anybody.

01:02:21.220 When he went to,

01:02:22.120 had lunch with Stalin

01:02:23.300 at Potsdam

01:02:24.480 on July 17th,

01:02:26.020 he goes back

01:02:26.660 and writes in his journal,

01:02:28.160 said Russia,

01:02:29.300 Stalin will be in the Jap war

01:02:31.100 by August 15th.

01:02:32.760 Finny Japs

01:02:33.600 when that occurs.

01:02:35.040 He writes home

01:02:35.640 to his wife,

01:02:36.200 Bess,

01:02:36.460 the next day,

01:02:37.280 said the Russians

01:02:37.900 are coming in,

01:02:38.720 we'll end the war

01:02:39.580 a year sooner now.

01:02:41.040 Think of all the kids

01:02:41.880 who won't be killed.

01:02:43.220 He knew it.

01:02:43.980 He refers to the

01:02:44.900 intercepted telegram

01:02:46.040 on July 18th

01:02:47.120 as the telegram

01:02:48.300 from the Jap emperor

01:02:49.440 asking for peace.

01:02:50.960 They knew that

01:02:51.740 the Japanese were defeated.

01:02:53.080 And if there had been

01:02:53.540 an invasion,

01:02:54.220 what was the estimate

01:02:54.820 of casualties,

01:02:55.440 the original one

01:02:56.060 from Marshall?

01:02:56.840 Well,

01:02:56.980 the original one,

01:02:57.640 they were talking

01:02:58.080 only like 20,000

01:02:59.240 and then the highest one

01:03:00.740 for the original

01:03:01.520 and all the gay exhibit

01:03:02.480 that we could find

01:03:03.360 was 46,000 Americans

01:03:05.440 would be lost.

01:03:06.480 But in his memoir,

01:03:07.600 Truman says,

01:03:08.200 I was told by Marshall

01:03:09.300 that we could lose

01:03:10.380 a half million American boys

01:03:11.900 in an invasion.

01:03:13.120 That's a myth.

01:03:14.380 I mean,

01:03:14.500 but that's what

01:03:15.440 kids are taught

01:03:16.200 in the schools.

01:03:16.700 And then Bush

01:03:17.100 brought it up to...

01:03:17.880 H.W. Bush

01:03:18.660 said millions,

01:03:19.520 we could lose millions.

01:03:20.940 A tough calculating

01:03:21.840 decision by Truman.

01:03:23.380 These presidents...

01:03:24.600 Right,

01:03:24.820 the retroactive justification.

01:03:26.900 So do you think

01:03:28.180 that,

01:03:29.940 you know,

01:03:30.200 you said the world's

01:03:31.160 nuclear arsenal

01:03:31.740 has dramatically declined.

01:03:33.640 That's going to be

01:03:34.140 increasing now.

01:03:35.460 But do you think

01:03:36.380 in that decline

01:03:37.240 is, of course,

01:03:37.940 at the end of the Soviet

01:03:38.800 Empire in 91.

01:03:41.020 Do you think

01:03:41.800 that all of those warheads

01:03:42.880 were accounted for?

01:03:44.480 Are we certain

01:03:44.980 that they were destroyed?

01:03:46.440 I don't have any evidence

01:03:47.520 that they weren't.

01:03:48.700 Okay.

01:03:49.380 So,

01:03:49.840 but I mean,

01:03:51.620 I've heard speculation

01:03:52.620 about that.

01:03:53.880 Yes.

01:03:54.420 But I don't know

01:03:55.460 that there are any out there.

01:03:56.680 Breaking news.

01:03:57.620 Trump intends to nominate

01:03:58.680 Kash Patel

01:03:59.320 to serve as the FBI director.

01:04:00.940 The level of corruption

01:04:02.680 in Washington, D.C.

01:04:04.100 was not wholly new to me,

01:04:06.560 but I also didn't expect it

01:04:07.800 at that level.

01:04:08.880 Is it your expectation,

01:04:10.220 though,

01:04:10.320 that Kash Patel

01:04:11.220 will pursue investigations

01:04:12.900 against your political enemies?

01:04:14.680 If they were crooked,

01:04:15.640 if they did something wrong,

01:04:16.800 if they have broken the law?

01:04:19.420 Comey,

01:04:19.780 the former deputy attorney general

01:04:21.240 of the Department of Justice,

01:04:22.760 literally hijacked

01:04:24.060 the system of justice.

01:04:25.600 And at the time,

01:04:26.960 of course,

01:04:27.220 we didn't know this,

01:04:28.060 but he was running,

01:04:29.040 rushing it.

01:04:29.540 They went after me,

01:04:30.480 you know,

01:04:30.760 they went after me

01:04:31.460 and I did nothing wrong.

01:04:32.520 Here's the thing

01:04:33.480 that I think people

01:04:34.080 need to understand.

01:04:34.840 The information operation

01:04:36.040 is not Mockingbird.

01:04:38.540 It's everybody.

01:04:39.920 How much do you think

01:05:05.440 Putin worries about nuclear war?

01:05:07.780 A lot.

01:05:08.940 I can't tell you.

01:05:10.200 I mean,

01:05:10.580 he's a cool customer,

01:05:12.180 as you know.

01:05:13.100 He's seen a lot.

01:05:14.180 He's been there for 23 years.

01:05:16.760 I mean,

01:05:17.120 he knows every world leader.

01:05:19.180 He's seen six American presidents

01:05:21.020 come and go.

01:05:22.140 I would say he qualifies

01:05:23.820 as a statesman

01:05:24.640 and a wise man.

01:05:25.780 Yes.

01:05:26.180 And we don't pay

01:05:26.860 any attention to him.

01:05:28.040 We should.

01:05:28.700 We should respect him.

01:05:30.540 He has the experience.

01:05:33.780 He understands

01:05:34.760 the American system,

01:05:35.820 how it sends new leaders in

01:05:37.720 and they change the policies

01:05:38.840 all the time.

01:05:39.920 So he,

01:05:40.400 but he thinks there is

01:05:41.700 a deep state

01:05:42.400 and that deep state.

01:05:43.980 In the United States.

01:05:44.760 Yeah.

01:05:45.080 And that,

01:05:45.560 and that's what he has

01:05:46.540 to deal with.

01:05:47.440 And that deep state

01:05:48.300 is very dangerous

01:05:49.020 because,

01:05:49.860 and when we started

01:05:50.860 our conversations

01:05:51.740 over three years,

01:05:52.860 it was our partners,

01:05:55.260 the Americans,

01:05:55.860 and I got irritated.

01:05:56.840 I said,

01:05:57.080 why do you keep saying

01:05:57.880 our partners,

01:05:58.620 the Americans?

01:05:58.960 They don't express

01:06:00.040 these sentiments

01:06:00.800 at all towards you.

01:06:02.340 You're considered

01:06:02.980 a murderer

01:06:03.600 by Mr. Biden.

01:06:06.140 And they think

01:06:07.480 you kill people.

01:06:08.640 You know,

01:06:08.960 that you're some kind

01:06:09.700 of character

01:06:10.140 out of a James Bond

01:06:11.060 spy movie.

01:06:12.720 They keep talking

01:06:13.440 about KGB,

01:06:14.380 ignoring the fact

01:06:15.060 that George W. Bush,

01:06:16.840 George 8. W. Bush

01:06:18.080 was the head

01:06:18.720 of the CIA.

01:06:20.940 Everybody I know

01:06:22.060 in Russia,

01:06:22.820 everybody I talked

01:06:23.700 to there

01:06:24.200 says they wanted,

01:06:25.920 they wish we could

01:06:26.720 have friendlier relations

01:06:28.040 in the United States

01:06:29.400 and Russia.

01:06:30.160 They all feel that way.

01:06:31.700 You know who fears

01:06:32.520 nuclear weapons,

01:06:34.060 nuclear bombs?

01:06:35.380 Trump.

01:06:36.400 Trump said recently,

01:06:38.780 a readie says,

01:06:39.960 we have never been

01:06:40.840 closer to World War III

01:06:42.500 than we are today

01:06:43.920 under Joe Biden.

01:06:45.420 A global conflict

01:06:46.460 between nuclear-armed powers

01:06:48.240 would mean death

01:06:49.360 and destruction

01:06:50.140 on a scale

01:06:51.500 unmatched

01:06:52.280 in human history.

01:06:53.700 That's what Donald Trump

01:06:54.680 said recently.

01:06:55.480 You know,

01:06:56.200 so he thinks

01:06:57.160 that giving

01:06:58.080 the Ukrainians

01:06:59.380 permission

01:06:59.820 to use the attack

01:07:00.980 M's

01:07:01.400 the way we are

01:07:02.580 is crazy.

01:07:03.620 I haven't heard

01:07:04.160 an American president

01:07:04.980 say anything like that

01:07:05.920 since Kennedy.

01:07:06.620 Sir, so you said,

01:07:07.460 you're talking about Russia,

01:07:08.260 you said it is

01:07:08.780 a Christian culture.

01:07:09.680 What does that mean?

01:07:10.100 You know,

01:07:10.480 they're a strong

01:07:11.640 Christian culture.

01:07:13.040 Very much

01:07:13.640 this concept

01:07:15.360 of a,

01:07:16.960 of,

01:07:17.720 they don't,

01:07:18.920 interesting thing,

01:07:19.820 they go to church,

01:07:20.760 they don't sit

01:07:21.460 at all

01:07:22.420 during the service.

01:07:23.440 They stand

01:07:24.000 the whole time.

01:07:25.220 It's,

01:07:25.560 that's serious too.

01:07:26.780 Yes.

01:07:27.220 If you're ever

01:07:27.700 going to Sunday school.

01:07:28.880 Yes.

01:07:29.160 We're more

01:07:29.920 Protestant,

01:07:31.220 we're,

01:07:31.820 we don't,

01:07:33.820 we're a divided

01:07:34.700 culture

01:07:35.220 and there are

01:07:36.020 so many sects.

01:07:36.900 There's the Jewish sect,

01:07:38.080 there's Arabs,

01:07:39.500 there's this,

01:07:40.080 and then we're all

01:07:40.680 into different things.

01:07:41.840 You know,

01:07:42.000 some people are

01:07:42.600 atheists,

01:07:43.540 some people are,

01:07:44.280 don't know,

01:07:45.240 agnostics,

01:07:45.940 this,

01:07:46.180 that.

01:07:46.420 they feel,

01:07:49.280 the Russians feel

01:07:50.080 that we have lost

01:07:51.080 touch with Christianity

01:07:52.480 and that we're moving

01:07:53.940 towards a,

01:07:54.600 more of a satanic

01:07:55.840 culture and I can

01:07:56.660 understand why

01:07:57.500 because we have

01:07:58.540 embraced the bomb,

01:07:59.960 we've embraced

01:08:00.700 regime change,

01:08:02.480 corruption in all

01:08:03.300 these countries,

01:08:04.040 we,

01:08:04.300 we believe in the

01:08:05.360 dollar changing,

01:08:06.700 controlling the world.

01:08:08.600 They don't see hope

01:08:10.280 in our way of life.

01:08:12.280 They see people who

01:08:13.180 are exhausting

01:08:13.780 themselves competitively

01:08:15.960 and dropping dead

01:08:17.460 and,

01:08:17.880 you know,

01:08:18.080 our health,

01:08:19.000 as Means told you

01:08:20.500 in your interview.

01:08:21.380 Yes.

01:08:21.880 We spend more on

01:08:23.120 health than anybody

01:08:24.080 and we die sooner.

01:08:26.140 Our expectation,

01:08:27.320 life expectancy

01:08:28.120 is very low

01:08:28.760 and our quality of life

01:08:29.860 is not up to

01:08:30.760 the other countries,

01:08:32.140 you know.

01:08:32.680 Europe is better.

01:08:34.340 So there is a lot,

01:08:35.520 a big question

01:08:36.120 about America.

01:08:37.540 We say we're,

01:08:38.340 you know,

01:08:38.620 we see ourselves

01:08:39.580 as a great country

01:08:40.400 and I think in many ways

01:08:41.380 we are

01:08:41.840 and I'd like to see it.

01:08:43.780 But I think our greatness

01:08:44.800 is tied to some humility

01:08:46.240 in the sense of

01:08:47.260 what we were fighting for.

01:08:49.580 Abraham Lincoln

01:08:50.360 in holding the country together

01:08:52.200 made some of the greatest speeches

01:08:54.060 and a purpose of life.

01:08:55.600 But he was a very strong Christian.

01:08:57.460 Remember that?

01:08:58.340 Yes.

01:08:58.820 Very strong sense of God

01:09:00.340 and that,

01:09:02.040 you know,

01:09:03.760 the grapes of wrath

01:09:04.620 are marching on.

01:09:06.260 So you think that

01:09:07.620 Russia sees this

01:09:09.680 as a conflict

01:09:10.760 between a Christian culture

01:09:12.780 and a secular culture?

01:09:14.240 Hours being a secular culture?

01:09:14.980 I think some people do,

01:09:15.900 yeah.

01:09:18.440 Putin goes to church.

01:09:20.760 But he doesn't sell me,

01:09:22.200 he's not an evangelist

01:09:23.480 or anything like that.

01:09:24.460 Yes.

01:09:24.900 Yeah.

01:09:26.460 No,

01:09:26.920 it's interesting

01:09:28.040 but

01:09:28.380 you're asked,

01:09:31.140 they fundamentally

01:09:32.020 have to be respected.

01:09:33.940 People who really study

01:09:35.220 a Russian culture

01:09:35.800 love it.

01:09:36.240 I saw Americans over there,

01:09:37.520 they love it.

01:09:38.060 They read the literature,

01:09:40.240 they understand the culture,

01:09:41.320 they speak Russian.

01:09:44.700 You have a Russian background,

01:09:46.360 you told me your story.

01:09:47.540 Well,

01:09:48.100 I've got a lot of friends

01:09:50.320 who are Russian historians

01:09:51.700 and Russian experts

01:09:52.900 and my friends in Russia,

01:09:55.020 when we talk about religion,

01:09:56.820 they say,

01:09:57.480 after the collapse

01:09:58.780 of the Soviet Union,

01:09:59.720 everybody got baptized

01:10:00.980 but nobody actually

01:10:02.280 goes to church.

01:10:03.820 So,

01:10:04.100 I mean,

01:10:04.300 they're religious

01:10:04.980 in a different sense

01:10:06.400 and it's part of their

01:10:07.100 national identity

01:10:08.100 and heritage

01:10:09.220 but I'm not sure

01:10:10.360 that they're believers

01:10:11.560 in that way.

01:10:12.760 And as you were saying,

01:10:14.080 unlike the United States

01:10:15.120 where we've got Catholics

01:10:16.620 and all kinds of Protestants

01:10:18.140 and Jews

01:10:18.720 and Muslims

01:10:19.380 and Hindus,

01:10:21.040 I mean,

01:10:21.360 they've got much more

01:10:22.480 of an identity

01:10:23.100 that revolves around

01:10:24.220 their religious heritage.

01:10:25.760 the whole concept

01:10:26.800 of what Rome,

01:10:27.900 I mean,

01:10:28.120 Rome moved east,

01:10:29.840 the new Rome

01:10:31.100 and that they were

01:10:32.660 the inheritors

01:10:33.640 of our empire

01:10:34.340 and that's where

01:10:36.100 they fought the Turks

01:10:36.980 and all that.

01:10:38.000 Yes.

01:10:38.420 All these conflicts

01:10:39.360 but it's interesting

01:10:40.860 what's going on

01:10:41.420 with Ukraine

01:10:42.220 because they changed

01:10:43.420 the rules

01:10:43.940 in the church.

01:10:44.960 They formed a new church.

01:10:46.680 They're no longer

01:10:47.280 Orthodox Russian.

01:10:48.920 Yes.

01:10:49.720 Well,

01:10:49.980 they don't have

01:10:50.360 religious freedom

01:10:51.000 there

01:10:51.800 and they're accusing

01:10:53.020 the Russians

01:10:53.540 of distorting

01:10:54.800 their religion.

01:10:55.900 Yeah.

01:10:56.460 But it's very strange.

01:10:59.180 So Ukraine is also,

01:11:01.720 this is,

01:11:03.140 it's a religious battle too.

01:11:04.500 They changed

01:11:06.000 everything Russian.

01:11:07.000 Do you know that

01:11:07.460 Zelensky didn't even

01:11:08.340 speak Ukrainian?

01:11:09.640 He learned it quickly.

01:11:11.500 He learned it quickly.

01:11:13.300 Yeah.

01:11:14.440 So they really

01:11:16.000 banned the language.

01:11:17.300 They really went

01:11:18.160 against Russia.

01:11:19.020 They tried to root it out.

01:11:20.840 They hated Russia.

01:11:21.560 Some people hated Russians

01:11:22.600 and they turned it

01:11:24.120 into a campaign

01:11:25.340 like Hitler,

01:11:26.540 a Hitler campaign

01:11:27.420 of genocide.

01:11:29.060 Against Russia.

01:11:29.680 Against Russia.

01:11:30.400 Yeah.

01:11:31.300 That war in Donbass

01:11:32.720 started in 2014,

01:11:34.620 15.

01:11:35.380 Yes.

01:11:35.760 And maybe 16,

01:11:37.580 but it got worse

01:11:38.320 and worse

01:11:38.720 and it was on the,

01:11:39.660 in 22,

01:11:40.360 when the thing

01:11:40.900 blew up,

01:11:42.140 they were on the verge

01:11:43.280 of invading Donbass.

01:11:45.260 They had 100,000 troops

01:11:46.320 on the border.

01:11:47.760 The Ukrainian troops,

01:11:48.840 well-trained

01:11:49.780 by the Americans

01:11:50.600 with all our work there,

01:11:52.520 our CIA,

01:11:53.480 our,

01:11:53.680 our advisors.

01:11:55.040 We had really trained

01:11:56.240 that Russian,

01:11:56.800 that Ukrainian army.

01:11:58.800 That was a deliberate,

01:12:00.380 deliberate manipulation.

01:12:01.800 We did not abide

01:12:03.580 by the treaty.

01:12:04.580 The treaty was intended

01:12:05.840 for a peace,

01:12:07.120 make an interim peace.

01:12:09.260 But as,

01:12:10.060 as Merkel said,

01:12:11.600 the Ukrainians

01:12:12.400 saw it as a way

01:12:13.720 to use the time

01:12:15.280 to build up their army.

01:12:16.040 to reconquer Donbass.

01:12:20.320 That's what they wanted to do.

01:12:21.740 And they would have killed

01:12:22.460 a lot more people.

01:12:24.520 What,

01:12:24.780 how do you suppose

01:12:25.800 the incoming Trump administration

01:12:27.900 can fix this?

01:12:30.300 Well,

01:12:30.880 he,

01:12:31.120 he announces everything

01:12:32.200 so that,

01:12:32.800 Biden is countermoving him

01:12:35.060 on every,

01:12:35.700 every regard.

01:12:36.820 It's very dangerous.

01:12:38.160 You can't say

01:12:38.780 what you're going to do

01:12:39.520 in a new administration,

01:12:40.880 especially this one.

01:12:42.540 Right?

01:12:43.360 I,

01:12:43.720 it's,

01:12:44.300 what do you do?

01:12:44.840 I mean,

01:12:45.080 how do you,

01:12:45.720 I don't know how,

01:12:47.380 but this administration,

01:12:49.620 much like the Biden administration,

01:12:51.240 we were talking about Biden earlier

01:12:52.500 and Oliver was talking,

01:12:54.080 surprised by it,

01:12:55.580 how hawkish Biden is.

01:12:57.420 Biden's always been

01:12:58.620 a cold warrior

01:12:59.500 and,

01:13:00.380 and very much of a hawk.

01:13:03.200 And he came to office

01:13:04.680 with 18 top advisors

01:13:06.840 from the Center

01:13:08.080 for New American Security.

01:13:10.180 Now,

01:13:10.360 these are the people

01:13:11.280 like Sullivan

01:13:12.440 who are the China hawks.

01:13:14.680 Many of them

01:13:15.560 were the people

01:13:16.100 behind the Asia pivot

01:13:17.940 under Hillary Clinton

01:13:19.460 and Obama.

01:13:20.940 And,

01:13:21.460 but Ukraine

01:13:22.240 got in the way

01:13:23.160 because there was

01:13:24.180 China who they wanted

01:13:25.800 to go after.

01:13:27.180 But you,

01:13:27.620 and,

01:13:27.840 and even Rand

01:13:28.800 has a proposal

01:13:30.760 something about

01:13:31.400 or a report saying,

01:13:33.180 title,

01:13:33.580 avoiding a long war

01:13:34.980 in Ukraine

01:13:36.020 because they wanted

01:13:37.000 to get after China.

01:13:38.480 Now,

01:13:39.480 the Trump people

01:13:40.420 are also much more hawkish

01:13:42.700 toward China

01:13:43.460 and Iran

01:13:44.540 than they are

01:13:45.560 toward Ukraine.

01:13:47.180 So I think that,

01:13:48.740 economically,

01:13:49.400 my,

01:13:49.620 my fear is

01:13:50.540 that they'll successfully

01:13:52.100 end Ukraine

01:13:52.960 and then turn their fire

01:13:54.420 elsewhere.

01:13:55.220 Except that,

01:13:56.080 that Trump did invite

01:13:57.460 Xi Jinping

01:13:58.240 to come to the inaugural,

01:14:00.060 inauguration.

01:14:00.860 And I think

01:14:01.720 it is showing

01:14:03.120 some signs

01:14:03.840 of moderating.

01:14:04.520 It's economic

01:14:05.140 with Trump.

01:14:06.100 That's what I think.

01:14:06.800 Well,

01:14:07.000 and transactional.

01:14:08.880 So it's possible

01:14:09.780 we're not going to go that way.

01:14:11.260 That's the only hope

01:14:12.040 we have,

01:14:12.460 to make a deal.

01:14:13.360 Right.

01:14:14.500 Make a deal with Iran.

01:14:16.880 What would that look like?

01:14:18.720 We're going to have

01:14:19.440 to inherit Ukraine.

01:14:20.780 We're just going to have

01:14:21.360 to pay it,

01:14:22.180 keep paying and paying

01:14:23.320 and paying.

01:14:23.600 We got to keep it up

01:14:24.400 and somehow

01:14:25.680 he'll make some kind

01:14:26.680 of phony state,

01:14:28.420 you know,

01:14:28.740 like,

01:14:29.960 create like a Laos

01:14:31.640 or Vietnam.

01:14:32.420 Right.

01:14:32.960 Yeah,

01:14:33.140 kind of a half state

01:14:34.500 and keep it alive,

01:14:36.840 spend a lot of,

01:14:37.640 not taxpayer money

01:14:38.640 and it's a front.

01:14:42.940 A front for what?

01:14:44.960 For NATO in a way,

01:14:47.100 but,

01:14:47.340 you know,

01:14:47.860 they won't,

01:14:49.280 they,

01:14:49.580 they,

01:14:50.240 Ukraine is to say

01:14:51.520 NATO free.

01:14:52.280 It does.

01:14:53.020 And so does Georgia.

01:14:54.280 Yeah.

01:14:54.420 Otherwise,

01:14:54.700 it's going to be,

01:14:55.680 the Russians

01:14:56.240 won't accept that.

01:14:57.500 Yes.

01:14:57.980 We have,

01:14:58.460 they have to understand,

01:14:59.220 why is NATO even alive?

01:15:00.900 I mean,

01:15:01.140 it was a defensive alliance.

01:15:02.520 I don't understand.

01:15:03.720 We formed NATO

01:15:04.520 because the Russians

01:15:06.740 were going to invade Europe.

01:15:07.980 Is that correct?

01:15:09.020 1949.

01:15:09.460 That's basically it.

01:15:10.460 They never invaded Europe.

01:15:11.760 They never could.

01:15:12.820 They never had the intention to.

01:15:14.560 And Mr.,

01:15:15.580 as I said to you earlier,

01:15:16.680 Kamala Harris said something

01:15:18.100 so stupid,

01:15:19.760 like,

01:15:20.220 the moment they win in Ukraine,

01:15:21.820 they're going to march

01:15:22.940 into Poland.

01:15:23.620 It's nuts.

01:15:24.380 That's what that,

01:15:25.160 the whole foreign policy

01:15:26.240 establishment is saying that.

01:15:28.160 And I agree with Oliver,

01:15:28.980 it's nuts.

01:15:29.680 Do they believe it?

01:15:30.580 Do you think?

01:15:30.780 They can't even defeat Ukraine.

01:15:32.300 They want to take on NATO?

01:15:33.920 I mean,

01:15:34.080 this makes no logical sense at all.

01:15:37.100 And for Putin,

01:15:38.160 Ukraine has a special meaning

01:15:39.660 and special history for Russia.

01:15:41.800 Yes.

01:15:42.140 You know,

01:15:42.600 and he doesn't want Poland

01:15:44.360 or Romania.

01:15:45.660 No.

01:15:46.160 I mean,

01:15:46.480 this doesn't make any sense.

01:15:47.540 It's not at all that way.

01:15:48.560 He didn't do anything like that.

01:15:49.860 He was in office for 23 years.

01:15:52.160 What did he do?

01:15:53.520 Very little

01:15:54.200 in terms of expansion.

01:15:56.200 It was just,

01:15:57.460 just their borders,

01:15:58.640 their security.

01:15:59.500 That's what it's about.

01:16:00.660 Their security.

01:16:01.880 Let me thrive.

01:16:03.400 Let me build up my country

01:16:04.760 economically.

01:16:06.140 Let me do this.

01:16:07.340 And that's what he did with Russia.

01:16:09.040 Russia did very well

01:16:10.080 up until the war.

01:16:11.340 This idea that he wants to recreate

01:16:12.720 the Soviet empire,

01:16:14.300 he said,

01:16:14.640 anyone who doesn't miss

01:16:16.480 the Soviet Union

01:16:17.520 has no heart.

01:16:19.200 Anyone who wants to recreate it

01:16:20.840 has no brain.

01:16:21.920 It's a good line.

01:16:24.920 But, you know,

01:16:25.760 but they are hurting

01:16:26.800 their own economy again

01:16:28.380 by this massive expansion

01:16:30.500 of arms production.

01:16:32.200 That's what brought them down

01:16:33.580 in the 80s, really.

01:16:35.080 They're spending 25 to 40 percent

01:16:37.280 of their budget on arms.

01:16:39.420 And now they're doing that again.

01:16:41.000 So even though

01:16:41.700 in the long and short run,

01:16:43.260 they're thriving economically,

01:16:45.460 unlike Europe,

01:16:46.660 in the long run,

01:16:47.480 it's going to hurt them.

01:16:48.280 So it's very much

01:16:49.180 in their interest

01:16:49.980 to end this war.

01:16:51.240 It's in everybody's interest.

01:16:52.920 If you're pro-Ukrainian,

01:16:54.980 what is the point of it?

01:16:56.360 For example,

01:16:56.920 after the attack Ms

01:16:58.180 were given permission,

01:16:59.420 everybody gave permission,

01:17:00.800 I was watching CNN

01:17:01.900 and they had Bolton

01:17:03.540 and they had Stavridis

01:17:06.140 and Clark,

01:17:07.880 and they all said

01:17:09.040 too little, too late,

01:17:11.560 using the attack Ms,

01:17:13.420 that it's great

01:17:14.140 that we're doing it,

01:17:14.880 but it's too little, too late.

01:17:16.000 What these people are saying

01:17:17.360 is they're willing

01:17:18.220 to risk nuclear war

01:17:19.900 over something

01:17:20.900 that they know

01:17:21.560 is not going to make

01:17:22.460 any difference

01:17:23.120 for the Ukrainians anyway.

01:17:25.300 The Ukraine is losing.

01:17:27.080 That's the reality.

01:17:28.120 They can't keep up with Russia.

01:17:30.120 They're outmanned.

01:17:31.240 They're outgunned.

01:17:32.220 They're outstrategized

01:17:33.360 at this point.

01:17:34.080 In the settlement,

01:17:35.520 do you think it's as simple

01:17:36.680 as telling the Russians,

01:17:39.080 no, NATO?

01:17:40.460 That'll end it?

01:17:41.260 No.

01:17:43.240 No.

01:17:43.460 Putin wants a little bit

01:17:44.320 more than that right now.

01:17:45.440 Oh, he wants to keep

01:17:46.300 what he earned.

01:17:47.240 Yeah.

01:17:47.660 He's going to keep,

01:17:48.820 he's got four provinces

01:17:50.340 that they said

01:17:51.900 are incorporated

01:17:52.660 into Russia.

01:17:54.220 So Luhansk, Donetsk,

01:17:57.040 Curzon,

01:17:58.040 and Zaporizhia.

01:18:00.400 And he's going to want

01:18:01.360 at least as much of them

01:18:02.820 as his army controls.

01:18:04.660 He's going to want more,

01:18:05.920 but their bargaining position

01:18:08.180 might be,

01:18:08.740 they might give up

01:18:09.620 the parts

01:18:10.500 that they don't control

01:18:11.580 for no arms,

01:18:15.040 no foreign arms

01:18:15.980 and soldiers in Ukraine,

01:18:17.560 no NATO in Ukraine,

01:18:19.540 and a lasting peace.

01:18:21.280 I don't think they want it.

01:18:22.560 The West says,

01:18:23.320 oh, it's going to be temporary

01:18:24.340 and then they're going

01:18:25.640 to just start it up again

01:18:27.280 when they're ready.

01:18:28.840 This has been a terrible war

01:18:30.600 for Russia

01:18:31.640 as well as for Ukraine.

01:18:33.520 And if you're sympathetic

01:18:34.660 to Ukraine,

01:18:36.100 the last thing you want

01:18:37.420 is going to see this continue

01:18:39.080 because they're only losing more.

01:18:41.060 They're only in a weaker position

01:18:42.580 and their young men

01:18:44.460 are getting,

01:18:44.940 not so young men

01:18:45.760 are getting killed

01:18:46.580 at incredible numbers.

01:18:48.800 So if we stop it

01:18:49.960 a year from now,

01:18:51.320 what's going to be different?

01:18:52.780 Russia's going to have

01:18:53.320 more of Ukraine.

01:18:54.520 There'll be more Ukrainians dead,

01:18:56.140 more economy destroyed

01:18:57.500 on both sides,

01:18:58.740 more Russians dead.

01:19:00.080 This is a horrible war

01:19:02.960 for everybody.

01:19:04.340 America was fine with that.

01:19:05.760 That's what they said,

01:19:06.600 weaken Russia,

01:19:07.440 weaken Russia.

01:19:07.980 Yeah, weaken Russia.

01:19:09.080 And build up

01:19:09.940 our armaments industry.

01:19:11.600 Yes.

01:19:12.680 The big five,

01:19:13.660 the military contractors

01:19:15.220 are doing great.

01:19:16.960 So there was a point

01:19:18.180 in American history

01:19:19.080 when the Congress

01:19:20.580 considered banning

01:19:21.880 war profiteering.

01:19:23.120 Yes.

01:19:23.420 When did that happen?

01:19:24.580 1934.

01:19:25.940 1934.

01:19:26.840 Gerald Nye.

01:19:28.000 Yeah, it was a great committee.

01:19:28.660 The Nye committee hearings

01:19:30.240 in the Senate

01:19:30.960 were an extraordinary moment

01:19:33.140 and it was a reaction

01:19:34.360 to World War I

01:19:35.540 because while the American,

01:19:37.620 Wilson said,

01:19:39.840 we want a million volunteers.

01:19:41.800 Well, he got 73,000

01:19:43.480 because Americans

01:19:44.720 had been watching

01:19:45.540 the World War I

01:19:46.700 in Europe

01:19:47.120 go on for three years.

01:19:49.280 They saw the trench warfare.

01:19:50.720 They saw the poison gas.

01:19:52.360 It was a horrible war.

01:19:54.140 And so very few Americans

01:19:55.580 wanted a volunteer.

01:19:57.040 So we had a draft instead.

01:19:59.040 But afterwards,

01:20:00.800 in the 1920s,

01:20:01.860 going back to Hollywood,

01:20:03.260 they had a lot of fabulous movies

01:20:05.400 about World War I

01:20:06.560 that were passionately anti-war.

01:20:09.260 Movies like The Big Parade,

01:20:11.040 Wings,

01:20:11.500 All Quiet on the Western Front.

01:20:13.640 And the novels,

01:20:15.140 almost all the American writers

01:20:16.840 were opposed to the war.

01:20:20.080 And so the American attitude

01:20:21.740 was very negative

01:20:22.820 about World War I.

01:20:23.900 So in 1934,

01:20:25.780 Gerald Nye

01:20:26.440 proposes

01:20:27.560 these hearings

01:20:29.320 and a new legislation

01:20:30.940 to eliminate

01:20:32.080 all profit from war.

01:20:34.620 Now these bastards

01:20:35.940 are making

01:20:36.860 enormous amounts

01:20:38.120 of profit.

01:20:38.660 So that's such

01:20:39.180 an obvious idea

01:20:40.260 that your

01:20:40.960 national industry

01:20:42.520 shouldn't get rich

01:20:43.480 from war

01:20:44.080 because it sets up

01:20:45.460 an incentive

01:20:45.920 for those same industries

01:20:47.060 to lobby for war,

01:20:47.900 which is what we do

01:20:48.860 now.

01:20:50.280 It's a self-evidently

01:20:51.640 good idea,

01:20:52.040 it seems to me.

01:20:53.140 What happened to it?

01:20:55.300 Well,

01:20:55.840 then they started

01:20:56.420 to go after Wilson

01:20:57.740 because it was

01:20:58.860 a bipartisan effort

01:21:00.080 on the committee.

01:21:00.900 It had front page headlines.

01:21:02.620 Who was Gerald Nye?

01:21:04.260 Gerald Nye

01:21:04.980 was a senator

01:21:05.720 from...

01:21:07.120 Midwest.

01:21:07.780 Yeah,

01:21:08.260 Midwest.

01:21:08.820 Midwest Republican.

01:21:10.100 Yeah.

01:21:10.540 Progressive.

01:21:11.060 There were a lot of

01:21:11.460 progressive anti-war Republicans

01:21:13.120 during World War I

01:21:14.760 and then afterwards

01:21:15.820 in the 20s and 30s.

01:21:17.740 They've been libeled

01:21:18.460 ever since.

01:21:18.880 Robert Lafollett was

01:21:19.020 one of the greats,

01:21:20.020 but there were

01:21:20.460 a lot of them then.

01:21:22.040 And they were

01:21:22.940 in strictly isolation.

01:21:24.820 William Borough

01:21:25.500 was one of the leaders

01:21:26.800 from Idaho.

01:21:28.700 Henry Wallace

01:21:29.440 was from Iowa.

01:21:30.440 Right,

01:21:30.780 Henry Wallace

01:21:31.300 was from Iowa.

01:21:33.020 And so,

01:21:34.140 but when they started

01:21:34.960 to go after Truman,

01:21:36.480 the Democrats

01:21:37.020 got very defensive.

01:21:38.180 And after Wilson,

01:21:39.060 the Democrats

01:21:39.500 got very defensive

01:21:40.680 and they blew up

01:21:42.200 the hearings.

01:21:43.060 Even Roosevelt

01:21:43.840 was supportive

01:21:44.800 of what they were

01:21:45.540 calling for in 1934.

01:21:47.500 So what were they

01:21:48.380 calling for?

01:21:48.960 Well,

01:21:50.000 there were various

01:21:50.600 variants on this.

01:21:52.740 One was

01:21:53.380 to either tax

01:21:55.000 everything above

01:21:56.540 $10,000.

01:21:58.020 Once war began,

01:21:59.700 anything that people

01:22:00.840 earned over $10,000

01:22:02.020 would be taxed

01:22:03.380 at either 98%

01:22:04.480 or 100%

01:22:05.700 because the DuPonts

01:22:07.620 and the Morgans

01:22:09.040 and Mellons

01:22:10.400 made huge profits

01:22:11.780 out of World War I,

01:22:13.700 astronomical profits.

01:22:15.600 And, you know,

01:22:16.340 part of the reason

01:22:17.080 why we got involved

01:22:18.040 in the war at all,

01:22:19.760 even though American people

01:22:20.580 did not want to,

01:22:21.900 was because we had lent,

01:22:23.600 Morgan Banks

01:22:24.280 had lent $2.5 billion

01:22:26.020 to the Allies

01:22:27.660 and $100 million

01:22:29.260 to the other side.

01:22:32.560 And so it was clear

01:22:33.740 which side

01:22:34.200 we were going to get involved in.

01:22:35.500 What Wilson said

01:22:36.520 when he was criticized,

01:22:37.800 because he ran

01:22:38.480 in 1916

01:22:39.840 as a peace candidate,

01:22:41.540 the slogan was

01:22:42.200 we kept America

01:22:43.080 out of the war.

01:22:44.460 And then in 1917,

01:22:46.300 they changed the slogan

01:22:47.280 to it's the war

01:22:48.380 to end all wars

01:22:49.620 or the war

01:22:50.560 to make the world

01:22:51.200 safe for democracy.

01:22:52.620 But Wilson entered it

01:22:54.060 in large part

01:22:54.800 because he knew

01:22:55.740 that if we didn't,

01:22:57.060 then the U.S.

01:22:57.560 would have no hand

01:22:58.860 in the post-war settlement.

01:23:00.920 And he said,

01:23:01.600 we have to be in it

01:23:02.600 so that we can shape

01:23:03.640 the post-war world.

01:23:04.960 And he came up

01:23:05.400 with the League of Nations,

01:23:06.360 which could have been

01:23:07.060 a good idea

01:23:07.700 under certain circumstances.

01:23:09.900 But his 14 points

01:23:12.440 were very progressive

01:23:13.380 but the British

01:23:14.540 and French colonialists

01:23:15.720 were not going

01:23:16.180 to accept it.

01:23:17.300 And as Oliver said before,

01:23:18.920 when the Soviet Revolution

01:23:21.100 occurred,

01:23:21.800 one of the first

01:23:22.360 thing they did

01:23:22.960 is they broke in

01:23:24.380 and found all

01:23:25.260 the diplomatic papers

01:23:26.400 which showed

01:23:26.980 the secret treaties

01:23:28.160 between Russia,

01:23:29.920 France,

01:23:30.560 and Britain

01:23:31.200 to divide up

01:23:32.420 the Middle East.

01:23:33.360 You know,

01:23:33.580 the problems

01:23:34.000 we're talking about now

01:23:35.220 trace back to then,

01:23:37.140 to the colonialists

01:23:38.700 who controlled

01:23:39.860 the Middle East.

01:23:40.640 But this was going

01:23:42.180 on all over the world.

01:23:43.140 They had this plan.

01:23:44.480 The Germans wanted

01:23:45.420 to get involved

01:23:46.140 in the war in part

01:23:47.120 because they were

01:23:48.120 latecomers to the empire

01:23:49.660 in Africa.

01:23:51.260 They felt they had

01:23:51.960 been frozen out

01:23:52.700 of the empires

01:23:53.480 that the British

01:23:54.400 and French

01:23:55.020 and Dutch

01:23:55.560 and Portuguese

01:23:56.400 all were controlling.

01:23:57.900 Yeah,

01:23:58.080 Wilson wouldn't meet

01:23:58.820 with Ho Chi Minh

01:23:59.460 from Vietnam.

01:24:00.480 Yes.

01:24:01.460 Famous story,

01:24:02.360 yeah.

01:24:02.660 Yeah.

01:24:03.160 There's an interesting

01:24:03.820 play by Arthur Miller,

01:24:06.580 his first play,

01:24:07.420 All My Sons.

01:24:08.140 You ever see it?

01:24:08.640 No, yeah.

01:24:09.160 Oh, they made it very,

01:24:10.720 it was a big hit

01:24:11.600 before Salesman

01:24:13.040 and it was a made

01:24:14.160 into a movie.

01:24:14.920 But it's about

01:24:15.600 war profiteering.

01:24:17.580 The father,

01:24:18.160 there are two sons

01:24:19.060 and the older son

01:24:21.900 goes against the father

01:24:23.460 when he finds out

01:24:24.240 that the father

01:24:24.820 has been making

01:24:25.860 defective parts

01:24:27.000 and his brother

01:24:28.160 is killed

01:24:28.980 in one of the planes

01:24:30.740 that crashes

01:24:31.360 because they're defective,

01:24:33.540 which happens

01:24:34.360 a lot more

01:24:35.940 now than ever

01:24:36.860 because we have

01:24:37.540 such a corrupt system.

01:24:39.100 They have crashes

01:24:39.860 of this new F-35.

01:24:41.880 Yes.

01:24:42.300 It's the biggest

01:24:43.620 boondoggle of all time.

01:24:45.700 So it seems like this,

01:24:47.400 and that play

01:24:48.120 had a huge impact.

01:24:49.520 It was Broadway,

01:24:50.200 1945, 6.

01:24:52.260 You know,

01:24:52.600 that was,

01:24:53.340 that's part of the reality

01:24:54.540 of war

01:24:55.040 is that people

01:24:55.680 make money with it

01:24:56.760 and that people

01:24:57.680 knew that then

01:24:58.480 at that level

01:24:59.160 and it goes on and on.

01:25:02.020 But they weren't able.

01:25:03.040 It's gotten worse.

01:25:03.960 The profiteering,

01:25:04.980 Gerald Nye

01:25:05.500 should come out

01:25:06.040 of the fucking woodwork

01:25:06.880 and now investigate.

01:25:08.500 Another play

01:25:09.260 that Oliver knows

01:25:10.780 that also is critical

01:25:12.680 of war profiteering

01:25:13.880 was Waiting for Lefty

01:25:15.380 by Clifford Odets.

01:25:17.260 You know,

01:25:17.640 he's also got

01:25:18.740 various episodes

01:25:20.260 about condemning

01:25:21.840 the war profiteering.

01:25:23.100 But they failed

01:25:24.080 to get control

01:25:24.640 of the system

01:25:25.060 in 1934

01:25:25.880 and no one's tried.

01:25:26.940 It came close

01:25:27.660 and it was

01:25:28.280 overwhelmingly popular

01:25:29.980 at the time

01:25:31.200 and then the Democrats

01:25:32.720 reacted to this

01:25:34.600 allegations against

01:25:35.880 Wilson getting us

01:25:36.840 into the war

01:25:37.540 to help Morgan.

01:25:38.440 What's interesting though

01:25:39.620 is that history

01:25:40.860 now regards anybody

01:25:42.480 who had second thoughts

01:25:43.580 about the First World War

01:25:44.600 and anyone

01:25:45.560 who didn't want

01:25:46.740 to get into another

01:25:47.540 war in Europe

01:25:48.520 in the 30s

01:25:49.720 as pro-Nazi.

01:25:51.940 That is how

01:25:52.860 they're isolationist,

01:25:54.420 they're pro-Hitler.

01:25:55.120 Or do you think

01:25:56.340 that's a fair

01:25:56.760 characterization?

01:25:57.580 You know,

01:25:57.820 the kids don't even

01:25:58.600 know about World War I.

01:26:00.220 Right.

01:26:00.420 That's really

01:26:00.960 ancient history.

01:26:01.820 They hardly know

01:26:02.380 about World War,

01:26:03.080 hardly know about Vietnam.

01:26:04.880 Yeah.

01:26:05.280 You know,

01:26:05.560 Oliver fought in Vietnam,

01:26:07.200 Oliver volunteered

01:26:08.080 for combat in Vietnam,

01:26:09.760 probably the only person

01:26:10.660 to drop out of Yale

01:26:11.720 and volunteer for combat

01:26:13.260 in Vietnam in history.

01:26:14.860 No.

01:26:15.640 No?

01:26:16.300 I think there are others.

01:26:17.320 Oh, maybe.

01:26:18.220 I doubt it.

01:26:19.740 But, you know,

01:26:20.980 and I was an anti-war

01:26:22.060 activist during

01:26:22.960 that period.

01:26:23.880 You know,

01:26:24.900 but I was in Hanoi

01:26:27.240 in January

01:26:28.140 and it's interesting

01:26:29.860 to me because

01:26:30.420 I had Robert McNamara

01:26:31.560 come into my class

01:26:32.640 some years ago

01:26:33.460 and McNamara said

01:26:35.120 to my students

01:26:35.920 that he accepts

01:26:37.200 that 3.8 million

01:26:39.080 Vietnamese died

01:26:40.020 in the war.

01:26:40.940 And I've always used

01:26:41.820 that figure

01:26:42.420 because it's mind-boggling

01:26:43.980 but when I was

01:26:44.980 in Hanoi,

01:26:46.060 the Vietnamese leaders

01:26:47.080 told me that now

01:26:47.980 the figure that they use

01:26:49.200 is 5 million

01:26:50.580 Vietnamese.

01:26:51.500 So the one place

01:26:53.680 that all my students

01:26:54.680 have been

01:26:55.180 is the Vietnam Memorial

01:26:57.440 in Washington, D.C.,

01:26:58.980 which you've been there

01:27:00.000 and it's got two walls

01:27:01.780 with 492 feet long

01:27:05.620 with the names

01:27:06.460 of 58,280 Americans

01:27:08.740 who died.

01:27:09.840 And the message is

01:27:10.780 the tragedy of Vietnam

01:27:12.060 is that 58,280 Americans

01:27:14.560 died,

01:27:14.980 which is part of it.

01:27:15.900 But if you included

01:27:17.240 the 5 million Vietnamese,

01:27:19.440 the million Cambodians

01:27:21.020 and Laotians,

01:27:22.380 the Americans,

01:27:23.580 the Brits,

01:27:24.220 the Aussies,

01:27:24.980 the Thais,

01:27:25.760 everybody who died,

01:27:27.020 that wall would be

01:27:28.920 more than 10 miles long

01:27:30.780 and that would be

01:27:32.060 a fitting tribute

01:27:33.060 to the Vietnam,

01:27:34.380 but it would send

01:27:34.960 a whole different message.

01:27:36.980 Oliver and I

01:27:37.460 are invited to Okinawa

01:27:38.700 in February

01:27:39.620 by the prefectural government

01:27:41.580 to support the

01:27:42.420 anti-base movement

01:27:43.420 in Okinawa.

01:27:44.180 Another story

01:27:45.380 we could get into.

01:27:46.900 But the Okinawa War Memorial

01:27:49.880 has the names

01:27:51.000 of all the Okinawans,

01:27:52.740 the Japanese,

01:27:54.040 the Americans,

01:27:55.080 the Brits,

01:27:55.740 the Aussies,

01:27:56.440 everybody who died there.

01:27:57.800 And that would be

01:27:58.920 an anti-war memorial.

01:28:00.940 But what the Vietnam Memorial,

01:28:02.560 sadly,

01:28:03.440 as powerful as it is,

01:28:05.400 is giving the wrong message.

01:28:07.020 And America is always

01:28:08.620 giving the wrong message

01:28:09.680 when it comes to war.

01:28:11.320 So is it strange for you,

01:28:13.380 we touched at the outset

01:28:14.700 at,

01:28:15.660 and as Oliver put it,

01:28:17.220 the complete inversion

01:28:18.320 of American politics,

01:28:19.340 but you were,

01:28:20.500 you said,

01:28:20.900 an anti-war protestor

01:28:21.820 during Vietnam,

01:28:22.460 then you watched

01:28:23.200 the party you voted for

01:28:24.740 become the war party.

01:28:25.960 Like,

01:28:26.160 what happened?

01:28:27.620 What caused that inversion?

01:28:29.920 Well,

01:28:30.520 the United States,

01:28:32.880 foreign policy

01:28:33.760 has been bipartisan

01:28:35.200 throughout the Cold War,

01:28:38.060 really.

01:28:39.560 And so both parties

01:28:40.680 have been war parties.

01:28:41.740 Correct.

01:28:43.020 But there was

01:28:43.760 a strong element

01:28:44.740 within the Democratic Party,

01:28:46.260 progressive Democrats,

01:28:47.340 who were much more

01:28:48.720 anti-war,

01:28:49.780 anti-defense spending,

01:28:51.500 and wanted to use

01:28:52.280 that money instead

01:28:53.240 for health care

01:28:54.720 and education

01:28:55.660 and infrastructure

01:28:57.540 and the things

01:28:58.160 that people needed

01:28:58.940 actually help

01:29:00.020 people's lives.

01:29:01.480 But it's become

01:29:02.180 this group think now.

01:29:04.020 And even progressive Democrats,

01:29:05.960 who are my friends,

01:29:07.040 sound so hawkish

01:29:08.240 these days

01:29:08.700 and I don't recognize them

01:29:10.160 and the odd thing.

01:29:12.380 So we have this reversal.

01:29:14.380 Trump ran

01:29:14.980 as the anti-war candidate.

01:29:16.820 Yes.

01:29:17.060 Trump ran

01:29:17.620 as the pro-labor candidate.

01:29:19.700 You know,

01:29:20.200 it makes no sense

01:29:22.400 to those of us

01:29:23.260 who grew up,

01:29:24.340 I was never a Democrat,

01:29:26.400 but I usually voted

01:29:27.840 for the Democrats

01:29:28.760 because they were more

01:29:29.860 progressive

01:29:30.360 than the Republicans.

01:29:31.300 but at this point,

01:29:34.000 you've got two war parties,

01:29:35.840 although there's

01:29:36.280 a stronger faction

01:29:37.120 in the Republican Party

01:29:38.240 at this moment

01:29:39.000 who are at least

01:29:40.420 making sense

01:29:41.420 about the nuclear threat

01:29:42.900 and about Ukraine.

01:29:44.340 But what,

01:29:44.860 I mean,

01:29:45.060 what caused that?

01:29:45.840 How did Liz Cheney

01:29:47.000 wind up campaigning

01:29:48.280 with Kamala Harris?

01:29:49.380 And it backfired

01:29:50.240 and it was stupid.

01:29:51.300 And you know,

01:29:51.760 what really hurt

01:29:53.100 Kamala

01:29:54.660 with the young people

01:29:55.840 was the

01:29:56.860 unquestioning support

01:29:58.540 for Israel.

01:29:59.540 I saw with my students,

01:30:01.880 they despised

01:30:03.220 the Democrats.

01:30:04.520 Gaza is the big issue

01:30:05.820 for this generation.

01:30:07.320 And they see it

01:30:08.460 every day on,

01:30:09.200 or they were seeing it

01:30:09.900 at least for a while

01:30:10.580 on television.

01:30:12.040 And the stories,

01:30:13.660 you know,

01:30:14.020 every day they were

01:30:14.960 digging out babies

01:30:16.800 from under the rubble.

01:30:18.240 It was horrible to watch.

01:30:19.760 And it was worse

01:30:20.800 if you traveled

01:30:21.340 in other parts of the world,

01:30:22.240 they were even more graphic

01:30:23.380 and explicit

01:30:24.020 than they were

01:30:24.920 in the United States.

01:30:26.100 This is what my kids

01:30:26.860 were watching.

01:30:27.580 My students were watching

01:30:28.520 and they were so disgusted

01:30:31.160 with the Democrats

01:30:32.580 for keep on feeding

01:30:34.040 this Israeli war.

01:30:36.340 I mean,

01:30:36.660 I would say

01:30:37.360 that most of my students

01:30:38.520 were pretty horrified

01:30:40.480 by the October 7th attack

01:30:42.300 that Hamas made.

01:30:43.660 And I know I felt

01:30:44.400 very strongly too.

01:30:45.640 Me too.

01:30:46.160 I mean,

01:30:47.320 you know,

01:30:47.780 I know that they

01:30:48.580 have been badly treated

01:30:49.820 for a long time,

01:30:51.060 the Palestinians,

01:30:52.180 but what happened

01:30:53.060 on October 7th

01:30:54.120 is unacceptable,

01:30:55.460 unforgivable.

01:30:56.200 Fair.

01:30:56.400 And I can understand

01:30:57.360 why there was

01:30:57.900 a strong reaction.

01:30:59.220 But the Israeli response,

01:31:01.200 we're talking like,

01:31:02.320 you know,

01:31:02.820 for 9-11,

01:31:03.820 people being ready

01:31:04.720 to do something.

01:31:06.040 They had already

01:31:07.100 been brutalizing

01:31:08.620 the people

01:31:09.600 in the West Bank.

01:31:11.300 Gaza had been

01:31:11.860 in open-air prison

01:31:12.900 for years already.

01:31:15.140 And so the Israeli response

01:31:17.000 is so disproportionate,

01:31:18.440 it's so horrific

01:31:19.340 for those of us

01:31:20.860 who have different history

01:31:22.580 and experience

01:31:23.320 with Israel

01:31:24.000 to see what Israel

01:31:25.880 has turned into now

01:31:27.280 without any,

01:31:28.980 almost no protest

01:31:30.620 against this brutalization

01:31:32.920 of an entire people.

01:31:34.440 Whether you consider

01:31:35.100 it genocide

01:31:35.700 or just a slaughter,

01:31:37.980 it sickens one.

01:31:39.600 And that's what

01:31:40.160 I found my students.

01:31:41.540 And the young people

01:31:42.360 did not vote.

01:31:43.600 I mean,

01:31:43.840 for the first time,

01:31:45.260 Trump got a majority

01:31:46.220 of young voters.

01:31:47.700 And it wasn't just young men,

01:31:49.420 young women also.

01:31:50.600 Well, people like me

01:31:51.720 followed Robert Kennedy, too.

01:31:54.120 I followed Robert

01:31:55.020 to Trump's camp.

01:31:57.780 Yes.

01:31:58.120 Not that I was...

01:31:59.260 Robert was...

01:32:00.180 I was the medium.

01:32:01.560 Yes.

01:32:02.100 He's...

01:32:02.940 I like what he's saying

01:32:04.280 and I hope he does it.

01:32:05.820 I hope he achieves it.

01:32:06.900 Whether Trump keeps his word

01:32:08.160 with him,

01:32:08.720 we'll see.

01:32:10.200 I think he will.

01:32:11.720 Do you know others

01:32:12.400 in Hollywood

01:32:12.820 who did the same?

01:32:13.960 Yeah, I think there's

01:32:14.620 a lot of people

01:32:15.140 who went with Kennedy.

01:32:16.340 I think a lot.

01:32:17.500 To Trump?

01:32:18.780 Yeah.

01:32:19.980 Amazing.

01:32:20.600 Did they talk about it?

01:32:21.440 They voted for Kennedy

01:32:21.900 so their vote canceled out.

01:32:23.600 Yeah.

01:32:25.600 But they were not going to...

01:32:26.960 In California,

01:32:27.660 he was...

01:32:28.160 Kennedy was on the ballot.

01:32:29.700 Yeah.

01:32:30.380 He asked all his people

01:32:31.940 to vote

01:32:32.420 in swing states

01:32:34.020 for Trump.

01:32:37.100 Anyway,

01:32:37.840 I like people

01:32:40.720 who are shaking up

01:32:41.980 the system,

01:32:42.560 who are asking questions.

01:32:44.100 And the media

01:32:44.780 is very, very hard

01:32:46.440 on these people.

01:32:47.320 Very hard.

01:32:48.500 Yes.

01:32:49.360 It's like dissent

01:32:50.280 is not allowed

01:32:51.080 anymore.

01:32:52.600 This is not

01:32:53.240 the American way.

01:32:55.060 Do you think

01:32:55.680 he'll be able to do it?

01:32:56.540 Trump will be able

01:32:57.100 to bring reform?

01:32:59.440 Why not?

01:33:00.500 If he's willing

01:33:01.240 to break with

01:33:01.860 some of the pharma companies

01:33:03.000 and some of the...

01:33:03.900 And that's going to be hard

01:33:05.100 because of money.

01:33:06.240 But who knows

01:33:06.940 how it works?

01:33:07.900 Trump's a...

01:33:09.480 He's an idiosyncratic candidate.

01:33:12.940 Yes.

01:33:13.280 He knows that he is.

01:33:14.540 He's a...

01:33:15.680 I don't think

01:33:18.540 he's a one-shot.

01:33:19.500 I think there's...

01:33:20.380 There'll be...

01:33:21.060 I think Vance will inherit

01:33:22.560 and people like that.

01:33:23.540 They will inherit that.

01:33:25.200 What do you think of Vance?

01:33:26.600 Well, I think he'll do

01:33:28.120 what Trump wants.

01:33:29.520 Yeah, I think

01:33:29.980 that's important.

01:33:32.040 There's got to be

01:33:32.580 some change

01:33:33.140 if there's no change

01:33:34.040 in this world

01:33:34.820 where it's...

01:33:36.340 America cannot continue

01:33:37.480 on this course.

01:33:38.280 It cannot.

01:33:39.620 And it knows it.

01:33:40.720 It knows it in its gut.

01:33:43.400 You know it.

01:33:44.840 I do know it.

01:33:46.140 Yeah.

01:33:46.700 And you're worried.

01:33:47.720 But change is good.

01:33:48.940 Change is good.

01:33:50.360 And, you know,

01:33:51.920 I see with my students,

01:33:52.940 you know what they lack now?

01:33:54.400 They're very critical.

01:33:55.980 They're very smart

01:33:56.940 and analytical.

01:33:58.360 There's no utopianism.

01:34:00.700 So many of the young people

01:34:02.440 think that the world

01:34:03.720 that they've inherited

01:34:04.600 is all there is going to be.

01:34:07.840 And they don't have any...

01:34:09.000 The 60s generation,

01:34:10.360 Oliver and I were part

01:34:11.100 of the 60s generation

01:34:12.260 when you were too young,

01:34:14.640 but...

01:34:15.400 Or not even born.

01:34:16.540 But, you know,

01:34:17.460 the 60s generation

01:34:18.400 had a vision

01:34:19.600 of making a better world.

01:34:21.140 Yes.

01:34:21.520 And that informed

01:34:22.580 everything we did.

01:34:24.220 And we would jokingly refer

01:34:25.680 to what we're going to do

01:34:26.860 after the revolution.

01:34:28.580 You know,

01:34:28.740 but we did have

01:34:29.320 a utopian vision

01:34:30.360 for how human beings

01:34:31.940 could live differently.

01:34:33.580 Young people now

01:34:34.540 are even much more ready

01:34:36.840 to critique the system

01:34:39.120 at its roots

01:34:40.280 than we were back then.

01:34:41.540 We were just learning

01:34:42.380 about what it meant

01:34:43.680 to critique the system.

01:34:45.100 But we had a hope

01:34:46.220 and a belief

01:34:47.040 that the future

01:34:47.720 could be that much better.

01:34:49.420 And I don't...

01:34:50.100 You know,

01:34:50.340 I think kids now see it

01:34:52.420 that maybe it could be different,

01:34:54.020 but they don't have

01:34:54.960 this kind of burning vision

01:34:58.020 that we could make

01:34:58.880 a better world.

01:34:59.860 So last question

01:35:02.340 that you both,

01:35:03.080 I think,

01:35:03.500 can answer

01:35:04.080 in an informed way.

01:35:06.680 I'll start with you, Peter.

01:35:07.760 History and its uses.

01:35:09.140 It does seem like

01:35:10.320 we're in a moment

01:35:10.760 where people are

01:35:11.440 at least open

01:35:13.000 to reassessing

01:35:14.300 their interpretations

01:35:15.800 of what happened,

01:35:17.320 particularly in the last

01:35:17.980 hundred years,

01:35:18.740 the 20th century.

01:35:21.140 Do you think

01:35:22.280 that 50 years from now

01:35:24.140 will there...

01:35:25.180 Our grandkids

01:35:26.440 will be reading

01:35:26.820 a different version

01:35:27.480 of history?

01:35:27.920 50 years from now?

01:35:30.440 Well,

01:35:31.260 I should start

01:35:32.180 with Oliver,

01:35:33.340 my book.

01:35:34.280 This is the earlier edition,

01:35:35.740 The Untold History

01:35:36.540 of the United States.

01:35:38.000 You know,

01:35:38.180 this one,

01:35:39.040 the 2012 edition,

01:35:41.260 was about 750 pages.

01:35:43.500 We put out

01:35:44.140 an updated edition

01:35:45.380 in 2019,

01:35:46.720 and now it's

01:35:47.520 over 900 pages.

01:35:49.320 People really should

01:35:50.140 read it and watch it

01:35:51.000 because it's got

01:35:51.440 so much history

01:35:52.440 that people don't know.

01:35:54.120 I was talking about

01:35:54.860 the ignorance

01:35:55.400 about World War II.

01:35:57.960 Well,

01:35:58.180 I did an anonymous survey

01:35:59.420 with college students,

01:36:00.440 all of whom

01:36:00.900 were A students

01:36:01.620 in high school,

01:36:02.840 and I asked them

01:36:03.920 how many Americans

01:36:05.060 died in World War II,

01:36:07.280 and the median answer

01:36:08.540 I got was 90,000.

01:36:11.740 90,000?

01:36:12.460 They were only

01:36:12.800 off by 300,000,

01:36:14.140 so they were

01:36:14.440 in the ballpark.

01:36:15.580 I asked them

01:36:16.040 how many Soviets

01:36:16.820 died in World War II.

01:36:18.680 The median answer

01:36:19.600 I got was 100,000,

01:36:21.680 so they were only

01:36:22.460 27 million off, right?

01:36:24.920 These are smart kids,

01:36:26.380 and they knew nothing.

01:36:27.500 They couldn't understand

01:36:28.440 World War II.

01:36:29.480 They couldn't understand

01:36:30.220 the Cold War.

01:36:31.260 They couldn't understand

01:36:32.020 what was going on

01:36:32.600 in Ukraine

01:36:33.360 unless they know

01:36:34.840 the history,

01:36:36.300 and so that's why

01:36:36.780 Oliver and I did

01:36:37.520 The Untold History

01:36:38.300 of the United States

01:36:39.160 to begin filling

01:36:40.380 in those blanks.

01:36:41.240 Tulsi Gabbard

01:36:42.080 was interviewed

01:36:42.920 by the New York Times

01:36:43.860 in 2019,

01:36:45.000 and they asked her,

01:36:46.340 what is a big article?

01:36:47.560 What podcast do you watch?

01:36:49.420 She says,

01:36:49.720 I don't want to talk

01:36:50.180 about podcasts,

01:36:50.920 but I just finished

01:36:52.020 watching The Untold History

01:36:53.920 of the United States,

01:36:55.000 and everybody

01:36:55.580 should watch it

01:36:56.460 because it fills in

01:36:57.580 those blanks

01:36:58.220 in the history

01:36:58.720 that nobody knows,

01:36:59.780 that we never learn

01:37:00.500 about in this country,

01:37:02.460 you know,

01:37:02.780 and so 50 years

01:37:04.500 from now,

01:37:05.200 it depends,

01:37:06.320 really,

01:37:06.920 because it's going

01:37:08.280 on in Japan.

01:37:09.900 Oliver and I

01:37:10.620 wrote an article

01:37:11.460 after one of our

01:37:12.680 trips in Japan

01:37:13.500 called Partners

01:37:14.760 in Historical

01:37:15.640 Falsification,

01:37:16.960 the United States

01:37:17.820 and Japan.

01:37:18.860 You know,

01:37:19.300 it's going on in Russia,

01:37:20.340 it's going,

01:37:21.260 I mean,

01:37:21.580 everywhere,

01:37:22.440 people try to sanitize,

01:37:24.440 whitewash their history

01:37:25.700 on the assumption

01:37:27.220 that if people

01:37:28.400 know true history,

01:37:29.960 then they're going

01:37:30.700 to rebel

01:37:31.180 and want something

01:37:31.900 different

01:37:32.360 and something better,

01:37:33.760 because if anything,

01:37:34.780 history teaches you

01:37:35.740 that what exists now

01:37:37.180 is not what has to exist

01:37:38.880 or what should exist,

01:37:40.240 that human beings

01:37:40.980 can create

01:37:41.660 a much different world,

01:37:43.240 and that's

01:37:43.680 the lesson of it,

01:37:44.940 so it's not just

01:37:45.560 to learn the past

01:37:46.300 for the sake of the past,

01:37:47.480 it's to learn the past

01:37:48.500 so you can shape

01:37:49.240 a better future.

01:37:50.280 Of course,

01:37:50.760 it's...

01:37:51.040 Yeah,

01:37:51.320 and that's what

01:37:51.920 Oliver and I...

01:37:53.060 Most reliable guidepost

01:37:54.300 to the future,

01:37:54.980 so,

01:37:55.620 I mean,

01:37:55.960 do you think...

01:37:57.180 We were talking

01:37:57.660 about JFK,

01:37:58.540 and when it came out

01:37:59.700 30 years ago,

01:38:00.380 you were roundly mocked,

01:38:01.200 you were no longer mocked.

01:38:02.860 People see it as likely

01:38:04.500 at the very least.

01:38:06.020 Yeah,

01:38:06.200 I think so.

01:38:07.120 It seems that way.

01:38:08.180 They much more accept it,

01:38:09.560 yeah.

01:38:10.540 So do you...

01:38:11.340 But that was the critics,

01:38:12.280 the public loved that movie.

01:38:13.380 Oh,

01:38:13.560 I know.

01:38:14.420 Yeah,

01:38:14.660 it did well.

01:38:15.620 It did very well.

01:38:16.320 I remember.

01:38:16.580 And it led to the

01:38:17.820 Assassination Records Review Board.

01:38:19.440 A three-hour,

01:38:20.120 six-minute movie.

01:38:21.140 It led to the

01:38:21.900 Assassination Records Review Board,

01:38:23.520 which is why so many documents

01:38:25.080 have been released.

01:38:25.320 Which is why I did this documentary

01:38:26.960 that I want you to see.

01:38:31.480 Revisited.

01:38:32.460 This is about

01:38:33.400 the Assassination Records Review Board.

01:38:35.360 They did good work.

01:38:37.340 They didn't do everything,

01:38:38.580 but they did some very good work

01:38:40.180 and brought out new facts

01:38:41.900 that are in this.

01:38:43.520 So why aren't...

01:38:45.080 Why are the intel agencies

01:38:46.840 still holding on?

01:38:48.660 Well, Trump had a shot

01:38:49.480 in 2016.

01:38:50.220 He did.

01:38:50.660 And he blew it.

01:38:52.140 He got pressure.

01:38:53.380 From Pompeo.

01:38:53.980 From Pompeo and those guys.

01:38:55.720 And then Biden killed it.

01:38:57.980 And Biden

01:38:58.680 knew what he was doing.

01:39:01.560 This is a very bad action he did.

01:39:03.780 He's undercutting Congress,

01:39:05.320 but they've been doing that

01:39:06.280 for years anyway.

01:39:07.900 So why?

01:39:09.260 Why are they so intent

01:39:11.020 on keeping the...

01:39:11.760 Well, there's obviously

01:39:12.460 some bullshit in there.

01:39:13.740 Yeah, obviously.

01:39:15.880 I mean, I'm not saying

01:39:16.700 those are the

01:39:17.440 who killed them names,

01:39:19.060 but we should know more

01:39:20.640 about those CIA guys.

01:39:22.080 There's files on them.

01:39:23.580 Yes.

01:39:23.920 What was Angleton up to?

01:39:26.440 That's a big deal.

01:39:27.680 James Angleton,

01:39:28.480 the counterterrorism chief.

01:39:30.120 What was Phillips,

01:39:31.660 Dave Phillips,

01:39:32.360 David Phillips up to?

01:39:33.460 He was a very important factor

01:39:35.140 in the Latin American operation

01:39:37.020 from Guatemala on.

01:39:38.720 He was the handler for Oswald

01:39:41.960 and Clay Shaw is in there.

01:39:44.720 There's a bunch of people

01:39:45.740 that are...

01:39:46.720 Oh, the fellow for Joanides,

01:39:48.200 the Morley's chasing,

01:39:49.840 George Joanides.

01:39:51.420 He's dirty all the way.

01:39:53.500 He was in from the beginning

01:39:54.600 and they covered it up

01:39:56.480 at the time.

01:39:57.840 They brought him back

01:39:58.820 as a witness for the HSCA.

01:40:01.980 Anyway, these...

01:40:05.220 Oh, and Harvey,

01:40:06.700 Bill Harvey.

01:40:07.440 I think he needs

01:40:08.320 to be checked out.

01:40:09.540 If you had to guess

01:40:10.920 as to why they're holding

01:40:12.720 these documents

01:40:13.780 60 odd years later,

01:40:17.080 what would it be?

01:40:18.180 I think, you know,

01:40:19.080 they declare everything

01:40:21.800 a secret.

01:40:23.080 Everything, practically.

01:40:23.960 It's just...

01:40:24.960 It's standard now.

01:40:28.380 Massive classification.

01:40:29.900 We need more transparency.

01:40:31.140 Yes.

01:40:32.720 It's a habit.

01:40:35.100 It's like a dog

01:40:36.140 peeing on a hydrant.

01:40:39.120 You know,

01:40:39.480 it just goes on

01:40:40.460 and on and on.

01:40:41.080 I don't understand.

01:40:42.260 If there's names and stuff,

01:40:44.700 they redact it.

01:40:46.140 They redact it.

01:40:47.180 So I'm not looking

01:40:48.480 to government,

01:40:49.240 but I'm looking

01:40:49.920 to honesty.

01:40:52.180 That's what I'm looking for.

01:40:53.860 And these bureaucrats

01:40:55.300 in the government,

01:40:56.620 how do they feel?

01:40:57.580 What do they feel

01:40:58.340 about their lives?

01:40:59.360 Are they working for us

01:41:00.900 or are they working

01:41:01.500 for secrecy?

01:41:03.940 The people have not been

01:41:05.360 dealt with honestly.

01:41:08.020 And we know that.

01:41:08.940 I think Americans know that.

01:41:10.380 I think Americans

01:41:11.160 are very cynical

01:41:11.860 about the government.

01:41:14.860 Which is part of the reason

01:41:16.280 why we're hoping

01:41:18.120 that Trump will pardon

01:41:20.160 Ed Snowden

01:41:21.260 and Julian Assange.

01:41:22.440 Yeah, good point.

01:41:23.020 I mean, Oliver made

01:41:24.000 a great movie

01:41:24.600 about Snowden.

01:41:25.900 You've met with Snowden.

01:41:27.240 Yes.

01:41:27.680 You know,

01:41:28.040 and what he did

01:41:30.500 was a great service

01:41:31.600 to America.

01:41:32.760 And he exposed

01:41:33.580 the mass surveillance

01:41:34.980 that was going on

01:41:36.180 of all of us.

01:41:37.420 It was a wake-up call.

01:41:38.900 Yes.

01:41:39.100 He should be lionized.

01:41:41.360 Dan Ellsberg

01:41:41.960 was one of my closest friends

01:41:43.240 and Oliver knows Dan also.

01:41:44.660 And, you know,

01:41:45.900 and Dan was facing

01:41:47.420 115 years in prison

01:41:49.040 for releasing

01:41:49.980 the Pentagon Papers.

01:41:51.240 But he said

01:41:51.880 it was worth doing it

01:41:52.860 even though he thought

01:41:53.820 there was only

01:41:54.120 a little chance

01:41:54.900 it could end the war

01:41:55.920 or affect the end of the war.

01:41:57.380 He wanted to get out

01:41:58.500 this history.

01:41:59.600 And for that,

01:42:00.620 he was vilified

01:42:01.980 and gone after

01:42:03.580 by Nixon.

01:42:05.380 I mean,

01:42:05.540 that was really

01:42:06.000 the best thing

01:42:06.600 they had on Nixon

01:42:07.440 was the break

01:42:08.660 into Dan's psychiatrist's office

01:42:10.000 and the plans

01:42:11.160 to try to, you know,

01:42:12.400 kill, effectively kill him,

01:42:14.640 compromise him.

01:42:16.440 You know,

01:42:17.260 but Dan ended up

01:42:18.520 by the end of his life

01:42:19.820 and what he spent

01:42:21.260 most of his life

01:42:22.080 warning about

01:42:22.880 was the nuclear threat.

01:42:25.200 You know,

01:42:25.400 and the end of his life

01:42:26.640 he was getting,

01:42:27.680 even the New York Times

01:42:28.820 and everybody else

01:42:29.660 was treating him

01:42:30.960 much like

01:42:31.700 what he deserved

01:42:32.380 to be treated like,

01:42:33.700 which is a hero.

01:42:34.700 And I'm hoping

01:42:35.780 that Trump

01:42:36.700 will understand that

01:42:37.980 and pardon

01:42:38.920 Ed Snow

01:42:39.920 and as quickly

01:42:40.700 as possible.

01:42:41.320 And Julian Assange.

01:42:42.180 And Julian Assange,

01:42:43.280 yeah.

01:42:43.760 Well, he has been.

01:42:44.420 Assange has at least,

01:42:45.640 you know,

01:42:46.340 got some measure

01:42:47.360 of freedom

01:42:48.240 at this point,

01:42:49.020 but...

01:42:49.380 He was commuted.

01:42:50.260 Yeah.

01:42:50.960 He pleaded

01:42:51.920 on one charge.

01:42:53.200 Yes.

01:42:54.840 But he can't come here.

01:42:57.120 Gentlemen,

01:42:57.540 thank you both

01:42:58.080 very much.

01:42:58.560 Thank you.

01:43:00.900 Thanks for listening

01:43:01.760 to Tucker Carlson Show.

01:43:02.920 If you enjoyed it,

01:43:03.880 you can go to

01:43:04.300 TuckerCarlson.com

01:43:05.380 to see everything

01:43:06.360 that we have made.

01:43:07.560 The complete library.

01:43:08.840 Tucker Carlson dot com.

Oliver Stone & Peter Kuznick： War Profiteering, Nuclear Tech, NATO v. Russia, & War With Iran

Summary

Transcript