The Tucker Carlson Show - Pavel Durov Speaks Out for the First Time Since His Politically-Motivated Arrest in France

00:00:00.000 We hope you're enjoying your Air Canada flight.

00:00:02.320 Rocky's vacation, here we come.

00:00:05.060 Whoa, is this economy?

00:00:07.180 Free beer, wine, and snacks.

00:00:09.620 Sweet!

00:00:10.720 Fast-free Wi-Fi means I can make dinner reservations before we land.

00:00:14.760 And with live TV, I'm not missing the game.

00:00:17.800 It's kind of like, I'm already on vacation.

00:00:20.980 Nice!

00:00:22.240 On behalf of Air Canada, nice travels.

00:00:25.260 Wi-Fi available to Airplane members on Equipped Flight.

00:00:27.200 Sponsored by Bell. Conditions apply.

00:00:28.720 CRCanada.com.

00:00:30.000 Well, I'm glad you're still here.

00:00:32.400 I'm also glad I'm still here.

00:00:34.000 Yes!

00:00:34.600 I mean, those of us who know you and who have followed you

00:00:37.440 looked at our phones one morning in August, I think.

00:00:40.980 And it was,

00:00:41.840 Pavel Drov disappears in France! Arrested!

00:00:45.180 And then, you know, no one heard from you for several days.

00:00:48.260 It was kind of,

00:00:50.640 it was actually kind of a pivot point in the way I understand Europe,

00:00:53.580 speaking for myself.

00:00:55.000 So if you don't mind,

00:00:55.940 I don't think you've done any interviews since then.

00:00:57.360 And what, like, what happened that day?

00:01:00.640 It just, like, the events of the day.

00:01:01.920 Let's start there.

00:01:02.720 August last year.

00:01:04.400 August last year, I arrived to Paris.

00:01:07.460 And I'm greeted in the airport by...

00:01:10.320 What were you doing here?

00:01:11.000 I just, for touristic purposes,

00:01:14.620 like, I was just hanging around for a couple of days.

00:01:17.100 And then I was supposed to go to Finland after.

00:01:19.540 And I wasn't supposed to stay.

00:01:22.900 There was no business meeting of any kind.

00:01:26.340 And I was greeted by policemen.

00:01:28.660 They asked me certain questions,

00:01:30.940 asked me to follow them.

00:01:32.340 Were you confused?

00:01:33.240 Like, why are policemen meeting me at the airport?

00:01:34.920 Definitely.

00:01:35.360 At first, I thought there may be some additional security checks

00:01:39.060 because of the Olympics or the Paralympics.

00:01:41.700 Something's going on.

00:01:43.660 Julia, my girlfriend, she was worried.

00:01:45.560 She was asking me,

00:01:46.300 is it all right?

00:01:47.240 I said, it's all right.

00:01:48.680 It's France.

00:01:49.420 It's fine.

00:01:50.300 Of course.

00:01:50.740 And then they read me a list of charges,

00:01:55.620 like, I don't know, 16 charges,

00:01:57.600 all kinds of crimes.

00:01:58.940 I was very confused at first

00:02:00.340 because, like, I have nothing to do with crime.

00:02:02.820 I've never been convicted.

00:02:04.600 I have, you know,

00:02:05.560 we are a company that is trying to comply

00:02:08.400 with the best standards.

00:02:10.180 And so at that moment,

00:02:13.400 I realized that it's not something I did.

00:02:17.300 It's something other people did

00:02:18.960 using the app I created, Telegram,

00:02:22.780 which is used by a billion people.

00:02:24.380 So probably some people.

00:02:25.720 Do you know all of them or?

00:02:27.180 Unfortunately not.

00:02:28.340 Okay.

00:02:30.220 I try my best to meet more.

00:02:33.820 But so, yeah.

00:02:35.320 And then I was put into a car

00:02:37.400 and with a small motorcade,

00:02:40.820 with police cars, with sirens,

00:02:43.300 which is funny because in the previous countries

00:02:46.660 that I visited,

00:02:47.860 I also was accompanied by motorcades

00:02:50.760 because I was visiting the heads of states there.

00:02:54.200 And here in France,

00:02:55.440 there was certain consistency.

00:02:57.100 So I was greeted in the same way,

00:02:59.420 so to say.

00:02:59.820 Were you, like, texting?

00:03:01.480 I couldn't because they took my phone.

00:03:03.720 And I wasn't allowed.

00:03:04.700 Like, they immediately took your phone?

00:03:05.420 Yeah, I wasn't allowed to contact anyone

00:03:07.740 except for my assistant,

00:03:10.220 who I asked to find me some lawyers

00:03:13.520 and reach out to certain friends that I have

00:03:17.220 and try to understand what was going on.

00:03:20.680 And then I spent four days in police custody

00:03:23.440 the building in south of Paris

00:03:25.800 that is, I think, run by the police customs,

00:03:33.320 the customs police officers,

00:03:35.440 or department, whatever.

00:03:37.640 And there I had to answer a lot of questions.

00:03:41.680 But you spent four days with no contact,

00:03:44.080 no phone.

00:03:44.860 Yes.

00:03:45.440 In what kind of accommodations?

00:03:46.960 It was a seven square meter room

00:03:51.520 or a 70 square feet room.

00:03:53.260 No windows.

00:03:55.500 Concrete block.

00:03:59.580 A bed this narrow.

00:04:01.920 No linen.

00:04:03.200 No pillow.

00:04:04.800 A mattress this thin,

00:04:06.320 like yoga mat this thin.

00:04:08.120 Maybe one centimeter, half inch.

00:04:11.000 And that's it.

00:04:11.540 And constantly blinking light,

00:04:15.480 which was a bit annoying.

00:04:16.720 A locked door?

00:04:18.540 Yeah.

00:04:19.140 The door was very securely locked,

00:04:21.260 I must say.

00:04:21.680 So you're in a cell?

00:04:23.620 Yes.

00:04:24.040 It was a solitary cell, so to say.

00:04:27.020 There were no other people there.

00:04:28.620 So they put you in solitary confinement?

00:04:30.400 You could say that, yes.

00:04:31.560 Well, it sounds like that's what it is.

00:04:33.120 Well, it wasn't a prison or jail.

00:04:35.540 Well, if there's a locked door, no pillow.

00:04:38.840 But legally speaking, it wasn't.

00:04:40.300 Yeah.

00:04:41.020 Legally speaking.

00:04:42.140 So legally speaking,

00:04:43.880 why were you being held against your will

00:04:46.540 by the French government?

00:04:47.440 Did you ever,

00:04:48.420 in the first four days,

00:04:49.440 did they make it clear to you?

00:04:51.640 So I understood that they were worried

00:04:54.600 about the alleged

00:04:56.380 lack of response

00:05:00.140 from Telegram towards

00:05:02.180 the judicial requests coming from France,

00:05:05.020 which turned out to be not true

00:05:07.420 because we've never received

00:05:09.160 a single legally binding legal request

00:05:12.280 coming from France.

00:05:13.540 So I was even more confused.

00:05:15.680 And I asked the French policeman,

00:05:19.720 why haven't you been

00:05:20.920 following the European law

00:05:23.200 and serving your legal requests

00:05:25.640 in the way prescribed by this law?

00:05:27.480 It's defined by the Digital Services Act.

00:05:29.800 And it's there.

00:05:31.020 You can Google the process.

00:05:33.080 You can read the privacy policy of Telegram.

00:05:37.080 It's easily accessible on the website.

00:05:39.180 So why didn't you do it?

00:05:41.180 And they didn't answer,

00:05:43.540 but thanks God they started to do it.

00:05:46.260 And then they started to receive responses,

00:05:48.880 helping them to identify criminal suspects,

00:05:51.840 meaning we would disclose IP address

00:05:54.260 and phone number of people

00:05:57.260 who were suspects in criminal investigations

00:06:00.480 when we received court orders

00:06:02.740 signed by a judge.

00:06:04.200 Right.

00:06:04.520 And this was something

00:06:06.080 that we had in place

00:06:07.380 since a year ago before that.

00:06:10.000 So it's not something

00:06:11.560 that the French have forced us to do.

00:06:14.920 It's something that we already had in place.

00:06:16.820 We had a company in Belgium

00:06:18.260 processing these requests.

00:06:20.120 Other countries have successfully

00:06:21.720 been using this process.

00:06:23.440 Right.

00:06:23.640 But somehow the French

00:06:25.320 have ignored it completely.

00:06:27.120 And this is why, you know,

00:06:30.060 I was very surprised.

00:06:31.080 Why haven't you been doing this?

00:06:32.560 Why this is the process?

00:06:33.940 And to be clear,

00:06:34.720 I mean, I think this is like standard

00:06:35.900 for social media companies.

00:06:37.720 A company, whether it's Facebook or X

00:06:39.960 or Snapchat or any of them,

00:06:41.340 get a court order from a country

00:06:43.020 in which they have users.

00:06:45.500 And the court order says, you know,

00:06:47.000 we have reason,

00:06:47.500 we have this person who's a criminal.

00:06:48.380 Can we have the IP address?

00:06:49.540 I think they all comply with that.

00:06:50.860 Correct?

00:06:51.480 Yes.

00:06:52.220 Well, it's the DSA law.

00:06:53.640 If you don't comply with it,

00:06:55.100 you can be fined,

00:06:57.640 you can be banned.

00:06:59.140 Well, it's a question

00:07:00.080 whether you want to continue

00:07:01.440 providing your service

00:07:02.580 in the European Union.

00:07:03.880 But it's only concerns.

00:07:05.980 It only concerns

00:07:06.900 their identification data,

00:07:09.120 meaning IP address,

00:07:10.260 and in some cases,

00:07:12.540 phone number of the suspect.

00:07:14.520 It has nothing to do with,

00:07:16.180 for example,

00:07:17.180 private messages of a person

00:07:19.160 or other kinds of activity,

00:07:20.980 which is much more protected

00:07:22.340 and much more private.

00:07:23.140 Even if we wanted to,

00:07:24.580 we wouldn't be able

00:07:25.320 to disclose this information.

00:07:26.480 Right.

00:07:26.760 But it's not required by the law.

00:07:28.880 Yes.

00:07:29.280 But what you're describing

00:07:30.160 is like the state of play

00:07:32.040 across Europe anyway

00:07:33.440 for all the companies.

00:07:34.580 Exactly.

00:07:35.140 Okay.

00:07:35.780 So, but because this is

00:07:38.040 like a normal thing

00:07:38.960 that's already taken its process

00:07:40.460 that everyone recognizes

00:07:41.560 and it's been ongoing,

00:07:43.320 you must be very confused

00:07:44.640 as to why you're being held

00:07:45.860 in this jail

00:07:46.460 that they're not calling a jail.

00:07:48.320 Were you confused?

00:07:49.340 Like, were you worried?

00:07:50.420 It was very hard to understand.

00:07:51.520 If I stepped off an airplane

00:07:52.460 and a bunch of cops showed up,

00:07:54.600 took my phone away

00:07:55.520 and threw me in the back of a car

00:07:56.820 and took me to a cell,

00:07:58.520 even though they pretended

00:07:59.220 it was not a jail,

00:07:59.900 but wouldn't let me out

00:08:00.540 and lock the door for four days

00:08:02.020 without being able

00:08:02.600 to contact my family,

00:08:04.300 I'd be concerned.

00:08:05.500 Were you concerned?

00:08:07.380 That was very surprising.

00:08:09.320 I was shocked.

00:08:11.080 You're very diplomatic.

00:08:12.860 You know,

00:08:13.080 at first I thought

00:08:13.860 there was some mistake.

00:08:15.900 They got the wrong guy.

00:08:18.500 I thought

00:08:19.700 they read the list of charges

00:08:23.440 and they have nothing

00:08:24.200 to do with these crimes.

00:08:25.600 Like organized crimes,

00:08:26.940 selling drugs,

00:08:27.860 all those things.

00:08:28.620 Like, what do I have to do with that?

00:08:31.640 Then I realized

00:08:32.800 it's serious

00:08:34.300 because they're not letting me out.

00:08:36.800 Like, they keep me there

00:08:41.880 in this cell.

00:08:44.560 Okay, but just for perspective,

00:08:45.820 so you've got a billion users,

00:08:46.960 it's a multi-billion dollar company.

00:08:48.660 You started the company,

00:08:49.500 you own the company.

00:08:50.100 It's a huge company.

00:08:50.660 It's one of the biggest

00:08:51.160 social media companies

00:08:52.400 in the world.

00:08:55.100 And so there's a process.

00:08:56.640 So if they think

00:08:57.300 that Telegram is doing something wrong,

00:08:59.040 they send letters

00:08:59.840 to your general counsel

00:09:00.640 or maybe get your phone number,

00:09:02.020 which I'm sure

00:09:02.360 they could pretty easily get.

00:09:03.440 French intelligence,

00:09:04.100 I'm sure,

00:09:04.400 has everybody's phone number

00:09:05.260 and just call you

00:09:06.400 and tell you,

00:09:07.440 I've never heard

00:09:08.360 of a CEO

00:09:09.220 of a multi-billion dollar company

00:09:11.060 getting arrested

00:09:12.240 at the airport

00:09:13.220 on grounds like this.

00:09:15.720 Well, you're very right.

00:09:16.780 It never happened before.

00:09:17.820 It's like completely

00:09:18.500 outrageous.

00:09:20.520 It's unprecedented, right?

00:09:21.780 It never happened.

00:09:22.920 So it's something that

00:09:24.640 I think was very unnecessary

00:09:26.960 because on top

00:09:28.540 of what you just described,

00:09:30.140 I'm also a French citizen.

00:09:33.020 So in the...

00:09:34.340 How did you wind up...

00:09:35.840 Because you're not

00:09:36.480 from France originally.

00:09:37.420 Yeah, I'm not from France originally,

00:09:38.840 but I have certain ties to France

00:09:40.900 and I was awarded,

00:09:42.420 so to say,

00:09:42.900 this citizenship

00:09:44.280 for using a specific process,

00:09:47.080 which took several years,

00:09:48.520 but I didn't cut any corners.

00:09:50.760 Like, I had to pass

00:09:51.500 the French exam test.

00:09:53.120 Like, if I had to do

00:09:54.080 certain things

00:09:54.700 that you'd normally do.

00:09:56.860 Because you wanted

00:09:57.660 to be a French citizen.

00:09:58.820 I wanted.

00:09:59.340 I love the country.

00:10:00.620 It's a great country.

00:10:01.580 It's a great culture.

00:10:02.740 Of course,

00:10:03.640 these events

00:10:04.640 are alarming,

00:10:05.700 and that's why I think

00:10:07.420 it makes sense

00:10:08.700 to speak about them.

00:10:12.440 And the most interesting part of it

00:10:16.220 is that every French citizen

00:10:17.820 has his or her

00:10:19.420 personal home address

00:10:21.080 in the passport.

00:10:23.020 So the authorities of France

00:10:24.580 know very well

00:10:25.280 how to reach out to this person.

00:10:26.520 Like, he's there

00:10:27.680 or she's there.

00:10:29.880 And on top of that,

00:10:31.080 the consulate of France

00:10:32.580 is located in the same building

00:10:35.220 as the telegram office

00:10:36.680 in Dubai.

00:10:38.900 So...

00:10:39.420 The same building.

00:10:40.420 The same building.

00:10:41.840 Like, you remember...

00:10:42.680 I've been to the building.

00:10:43.420 You've been to the building.

00:10:43.880 It's not a huge building,

00:10:44.760 by the way.

00:10:45.300 Not really.

00:10:46.180 And it's just two floors below.

00:10:49.800 So two floors

00:10:50.640 from the French consulate?

00:10:51.560 We're two floors

00:10:52.660 from the French consulate.

00:10:54.260 And I was a frequent visitor

00:10:56.120 to the consulate.

00:10:56.960 And whenever

00:10:57.860 any French agency authority

00:11:01.100 or representative of France,

00:11:03.760 of the government,

00:11:04.300 wanted to see me,

00:11:06.260 they had no issue whatsoever

00:11:08.100 arranging such meetings.

00:11:10.440 And these meetings took place.

00:11:12.440 I was happy

00:11:13.240 just to go two floors

00:11:14.520 below my office

00:11:16.600 and have a conversation

00:11:18.080 or invite them

00:11:18.880 to our office.

00:11:20.260 So it's very,

00:11:22.180 very strange

00:11:22.900 what happened

00:11:23.600 because it could have been

00:11:24.960 resolved by

00:11:25.840 different means,

00:11:27.380 if you think so.

00:11:27.920 obviously.

00:11:29.200 They went way

00:11:30.620 out of their way

00:11:31.380 to humiliate you,

00:11:34.020 to issue...

00:11:34.540 They announced

00:11:35.120 that they arrested you.

00:11:36.060 I mean,

00:11:36.380 you were not obviously

00:11:37.540 scanning Google

00:11:38.900 for news stories

00:11:39.940 about yourself

00:11:40.360 because you couldn't.

00:11:41.660 I couldn't.

00:11:42.200 But the rest of us were.

00:11:43.820 And they announced

00:11:44.720 we've arrested

00:11:45.560 Paul Durov

00:11:46.720 and arms sales

00:11:48.720 or drug sales

00:11:49.400 or kiddie porn

00:11:50.160 or, I mean,

00:11:50.660 who knows,

00:11:51.020 like, horrible.

00:11:51.940 It's like, what?

00:11:52.780 So they were trying

00:11:55.980 to terrify you

00:11:57.500 and humiliate you,

00:11:58.580 obviously.

00:11:59.720 This is something

00:12:00.360 that was also very unusual.

00:12:02.060 So what my lawyers

00:12:02.980 told me here in France

00:12:04.600 that normally

00:12:05.340 the prosecutor's office

00:12:07.480 is not that public.

00:12:10.180 They are not issuing

00:12:11.620 press statements

00:12:12.900 every day

00:12:14.040 and they're not commenting

00:12:15.060 on their investigations,

00:12:16.860 which was not the case

00:12:18.420 with me

00:12:19.420 where they were very active.

00:12:21.520 They were trying to...

00:12:22.360 Have you gone back?

00:12:23.400 So you were,

00:12:23.920 of course,

00:12:24.220 you were locked up

00:12:24.920 and you couldn't read

00:12:25.540 the coverage,

00:12:26.080 but have you gone back

00:12:26.840 and read it

00:12:27.360 for those four days

00:12:28.960 when you were being held?

00:12:30.120 Well,

00:12:30.620 when I was

00:12:31.480 in police custody,

00:12:32.920 I heard from

00:12:34.060 one of the policemen.

00:12:35.100 He told me,

00:12:36.240 every newspaper

00:12:37.900 in the world

00:12:38.680 is covering this

00:12:40.460 and is mentioning you.

00:12:43.320 And I said,

00:12:44.180 what's going on?

00:12:44.760 He said,

00:12:44.960 well,

00:12:45.300 a lot of people

00:12:45.840 are supportive,

00:12:47.680 but I asked him,

00:12:49.560 what do newspapers

00:12:50.820 write about this case?

00:12:52.000 And he told me

00:12:53.040 everything but truth.

00:12:55.600 And I freaked out

00:12:56.740 at that moment,

00:12:57.620 like everything but truth,

00:12:59.300 seriously.

00:13:00.760 And when I went,

00:13:03.280 this four days ended

00:13:06.560 and I was...

00:13:07.960 Can I just ask,

00:13:08.500 what was your family doing?

00:13:10.240 And you've got children

00:13:11.040 and parents

00:13:12.120 and like what were...

00:13:13.600 To be honest,

00:13:14.200 this is the hardest part

00:13:15.360 because I'm pretty

00:13:16.860 stress resilient

00:13:18.140 so I can take care

00:13:19.620 of myself.

00:13:20.940 But being there,

00:13:22.120 locked there,

00:13:22.680 thinking about

00:13:23.220 what's going on

00:13:24.440 with my mom,

00:13:25.360 you know,

00:13:25.560 she's very ill,

00:13:27.020 she's very elderly,

00:13:28.400 she was very worried

00:13:29.360 as I learned after,

00:13:31.000 what's going on

00:13:31.780 with my kids.

00:13:32.980 And this is something

00:13:34.200 that gets to you.

00:13:35.540 And...

00:13:35.980 And you couldn't

00:13:36.580 contact them?

00:13:37.320 No,

00:13:37.620 there's no way

00:13:38.220 because you don't have

00:13:39.320 access to any device

00:13:41.100 or you can't even

00:13:42.680 read a newspaper.

00:13:43.140 What did they think

00:13:43.740 was going on?

00:13:45.600 They were very surprised

00:13:47.720 and very confused

00:13:48.460 and very worried.

00:13:49.640 Everybody wants to feel

00:13:50.960 secure at home.

00:13:51.880 It's your castle.

00:13:52.840 There's nothing like

00:13:53.380 going to sleep

00:13:54.340 with a complete sense

00:13:55.660 of safety.

00:13:56.700 That's why you sleep soundly.

00:13:58.900 That's why we cannot

00:13:59.940 speak highly enough

00:14:00.740 of SimpliSafe.

00:14:02.040 Most security systems

00:14:03.280 take action only after

00:14:04.400 someone breaks

00:14:05.000 into your house.

00:14:05.580 It's a little late.

00:14:07.520 SimpliSafe's new

00:14:08.100 Active Guard

00:14:08.760 outdoor protection feature

00:14:09.980 helps stop break-ins

00:14:11.060 before they occur

00:14:12.480 and that gives you

00:14:13.160 peace of mind

00:14:14.040 and it means you won't

00:14:15.100 have to sleep

00:14:15.680 with a baseball bat

00:14:16.740 or a loaded handgun

00:14:17.700 on your bedside

00:14:18.940 though you might want

00:14:19.500 to anyway.

00:14:20.020 Here's how it works.

00:14:21.140 If something suspicious

00:14:21.940 happens outside your property,

00:14:23.600 cameras and live

00:14:24.260 monitoring agents

00:14:25.060 will detect it,

00:14:26.300 they'll speak to

00:14:27.060 the intruder,

00:14:28.180 turn on spotlights,

00:14:29.600 and can call the police

00:14:30.680 if necessary.

00:14:31.880 It's no surprise

00:14:32.680 that CNET

00:14:33.200 named SimpliSafe

00:14:34.060 the best home security

00:14:35.400 system of 2025.

00:14:36.960 Over 4 million Americans

00:14:38.380 trust it

00:14:38.980 because it's preemptive.

00:14:40.920 Monitoring plans

00:14:41.580 start around $1 per day.

00:14:43.440 There are no hidden fees,

00:14:44.720 60-day money-back guarantee.

00:14:47.360 Visit SimpliSafe.com

00:14:49.020 slash Tucker

00:14:49.520 to get 50% off

00:14:50.740 a new system

00:14:51.500 with a professional

00:14:52.520 monitoring plan

00:14:53.380 and your first month free.

00:14:55.260 That's SimpliSafe,

00:14:56.440 S-I-M-P-L-I-S-A-F-E

00:14:58.620 dot com slash Tucker.

00:15:00.680 There's no safe

00:15:01.440 like SimpliSafe.

00:15:02.320 They speak of darkness

00:15:03.640 and danger,

00:15:04.920 but totalitarian novels

00:15:06.360 also give us hope,

00:15:08.320 showing us how to defend

00:15:09.580 our society

00:15:10.320 from the horrors

00:15:11.380 of tyranny.

00:15:12.440 In Hillsdale College's

00:15:13.520 free online course,

00:15:15.060 Totalitarian Novels,

00:15:16.520 Hillsdale President

00:15:17.320 Larry Arn

00:15:18.100 teaches us lessons

00:15:19.220 from classic novels

00:15:20.400 like George Orwell's

00:15:21.820 1984

00:15:22.300 that are as relevant

00:15:24.020 today as ever.

00:15:25.840 Sign up now

00:15:26.520 for Hillsdale College's

00:15:27.780 free online course,

00:15:29.320 Totalitarian Novels,

00:15:30.580 at

00:15:30.840 TuckerForHillsdale.com

00:15:32.740 That's

00:15:33.240 TuckerForHillsdale.com

00:15:35.400 So the people trying

00:15:36.980 to wreck our civilization

00:15:38.340 want you to be passive.

00:15:40.840 They want you weak

00:15:41.840 so they can control you.

00:15:44.320 Weakness is their goal.

00:15:46.860 No thanks.

00:15:48.040 Our friends at Beam,

00:15:49.560 a proud American company,

00:15:51.360 understand that our country

00:15:52.480 can only be great

00:15:53.600 if its people are strong.

00:15:56.160 And that's why they've created

00:15:56.820 a new creatine product

00:15:57.980 to help listeners like you

00:15:59.160 stay mentally sharp

00:16:00.360 and physically fit.

00:16:01.660 People like to mock creatine.

00:16:04.100 CNN doesn't like creatine at all.

00:16:06.680 But people buy it

00:16:07.680 because it works.

00:16:09.380 Beam's creatine

00:16:10.080 can help you improve

00:16:10.980 your strength,

00:16:11.700 your brain health,

00:16:12.460 your longevity.

00:16:13.500 It's completely free

00:16:14.900 of sugar and synthetic garbage

00:16:16.720 that's in almost

00:16:17.640 everything else that you eat.

00:16:19.620 Of course,

00:16:20.140 you don't hear about it

00:16:21.120 too much because again,

00:16:22.460 a population that is strong,

00:16:24.720 clear-minded,

00:16:25.520 and physically capable

00:16:26.720 is a threat to tyrants.

00:16:29.560 That's why they want you

00:16:30.660 to play in video games.

00:16:32.400 To celebrate American strength,

00:16:34.440 actual American strength,

00:16:35.920 Beam is offering

00:16:36.600 up to 30% off

00:16:38.120 their best-selling creatine

00:16:39.140 for the next 48 hours.

00:16:40.560 Go to shopbeam.com

00:16:42.320 slash Tucker.

00:16:43.300 Use the code Tucker

00:16:44.220 at checkout.

00:16:45.380 That's shopbeam,

00:16:46.560 B-E-A-M dot com

00:16:47.940 slash Tucker.

00:16:48.560 Use the code Tucker

00:16:49.200 for up to 30% off.

00:16:50.820 It's built on core values,

00:16:52.940 integrity, results,

00:16:54.540 no BS, Beam.

00:16:56.520 We strongly recommend it.

00:16:58.660 Every day,

00:16:59.620 local businesses

00:17:00.740 open their doors

00:17:01.700 with more than just a plan.

00:17:03.560 They bring persistence,

00:17:05.020 ambition,

00:17:05.740 and a vision

00:17:06.260 for what's next.

00:17:07.680 And America's banks

00:17:08.640 bring the tools

00:17:09.420 and strategic guidance

00:17:10.600 to get there.

00:17:11.680 From storefronts

00:17:12.460 on Main Street

00:17:13.080 to warehouse floors,

00:17:14.840 businesses are leading

00:17:15.780 the way

00:17:16.280 with support

00:17:17.000 from banks.

00:17:18.520 Banks are providing

00:17:19.240 what it takes

00:17:19.880 for businesses

00:17:20.460 to operate today

00:17:21.580 and plan for tomorrow.

00:17:23.400 Building opportunity,

00:17:24.740 fueling economic growth.

00:17:26.400 Paid for by United

00:17:27.240 for a strong economy.

00:17:28.860 Just for perspective,

00:17:30.320 those who don't know

00:17:31.280 your story,

00:17:31.620 I won't tell the whole story.

00:17:32.480 It's an amazing story.

00:17:33.220 We did an interview

00:17:33.800 with you maybe

00:17:34.300 a year and a half ago

00:17:35.040 in which you told your story.

00:17:36.540 You're Russian,

00:17:37.620 as people can probably

00:17:38.200 hear in your voice,

00:17:39.300 and sound like

00:17:41.820 you're pretty happy

00:17:42.340 in Russia,

00:17:42.760 successful in Russia.

00:17:43.400 You had to leave Russia

00:17:44.080 for political reasons.

00:17:45.120 The government

00:17:45.500 was trying to use

00:17:46.460 your company

00:17:46.960 for its own purposes.

00:17:48.580 You didn't want

00:17:49.100 to be used.

00:17:49.740 You left your own country

00:17:51.400 and moved around,

00:17:55.500 but wound up

00:17:55.960 in Dubai and France.

00:17:57.660 Were you ever

00:17:58.400 arrested by Putin?

00:18:00.920 No.

00:18:01.800 No?

00:18:02.380 Okay.

00:18:03.720 Just to put a finer

00:18:04.700 point on this,

00:18:05.680 I mean,

00:18:05.820 I'm not defending Putin,

00:18:08.180 but you were arrested

00:18:09.140 by the French government

00:18:09.960 in the Free West.

00:18:11.320 Did you ever

00:18:12.240 kind of see

00:18:13.200 the irony there?

00:18:14.340 That was the most

00:18:15.080 unexpected place

00:18:16.560 to get arrested

00:18:17.280 for me,

00:18:18.320 because before

00:18:19.080 in this trip,

00:18:19.780 I visited several countries.

00:18:22.540 Some of these countries

00:18:23.600 are considered

00:18:24.580 in the West

00:18:25.400 to be autocratic

00:18:27.400 or authoritarian.

00:18:29.660 But I had,

00:18:31.300 and Telegram

00:18:32.080 is very, very popular

00:18:33.220 in these countries

00:18:33.880 I visited

00:18:34.280 before coming to Paris.

00:18:36.220 And I had

00:18:36.880 zero issues whatsoever,

00:18:38.940 despite the fact

00:18:39.740 that Telegram

00:18:40.820 does zero censorship

00:18:45.020 in terms of

00:18:46.240 political speech,

00:18:47.640 and Telegram

00:18:49.080 provides 100%

00:18:50.340 privacy

00:18:51.340 and confidentiality

00:18:53.340 to its users

00:18:54.160 in all these places.

00:18:56.180 So you do not

00:18:57.280 extract personal

00:18:58.320 information

00:18:58.820 from your users?

00:19:00.380 Unlike our company,

00:19:01.200 yes.

00:19:01.820 We never do that.

00:19:03.080 Okay.

00:19:03.660 But other companies,

00:19:04.800 I mean,

00:19:04.980 Facebook is,

00:19:06.500 I mean,

00:19:06.820 Meta is very rich

00:19:07.640 because they extract

00:19:08.680 that personal data,

00:19:09.460 right?

00:19:09.800 That's the business model,

00:19:10.780 yes.

00:19:11.180 That's right,

00:19:11.480 but I'm not attacking them.

00:19:12.640 Sorry,

00:19:12.980 I am attacking them.

00:19:14.000 But that's what they do,

00:19:15.360 and you don't do that.

00:19:16.460 We don't have to do that.

00:19:19.200 We came up with ways

00:19:22.560 to monetize Telegram

00:19:24.060 without having to abuse

00:19:27.420 people's personal data

00:19:29.200 this way.

00:19:30.460 So Telegram became profitable

00:19:31.860 last year,

00:19:33.220 and very profitable,

00:19:34.260 more than half a billion dollars

00:19:37.440 in profit,

00:19:38.700 without having to rely

00:19:40.960 on methods like this,

00:19:42.420 when you have to extract

00:19:43.780 personal data

00:19:44.580 and then use it

00:19:45.980 for targeting ads,

00:19:48.460 for example.

00:19:49.880 We have very successful

00:19:51.180 paid subscription

00:19:53.240 service on Telegram.

00:19:57.880 We have,

00:19:58.540 you know,

00:19:58.900 we monetize in ways

00:20:00.700 that are consistent

00:20:01.400 with our values.

00:20:02.400 That are voluntary.

00:20:03.640 I mean,

00:20:04.120 your users have to sign up

00:20:06.040 for the things

00:20:06.800 that make you money.

00:20:08.240 Yeah,

00:20:08.420 because not just

00:20:09.080 stealing their data

00:20:10.000 from them.

00:20:10.440 Exactly.

00:20:11.080 And the service is free,

00:20:13.040 and we just crossed

00:20:14.680 one billion

00:20:15.560 monthly user

00:20:17.380 threshold

00:20:19.640 or milestone.

00:20:21.300 Congratulations.

00:20:21.980 Thank you.

00:20:22.800 So it's growing very fast,

00:20:24.740 and we are very happy

00:20:25.500 with what we are.

00:20:26.100 We are very proud

00:20:26.980 with what we do,

00:20:28.120 because if you look

00:20:29.240 at any mobile messaging app

00:20:31.940 right now,

00:20:33.060 and we're number two

00:20:33.940 after you can guess

00:20:35.280 which other app,

00:20:36.420 we're the second most popular

00:20:38.020 messaging app

00:20:38.680 in the world.

00:20:39.100 But most of the features

00:20:42.180 that you use

00:20:43.120 on a modern messaging app

00:20:45.760 first appeared,

00:20:47.260 first were created

00:20:48.040 by Telegram,

00:20:48.860 and then they were borrowed.

00:20:50.140 We came up with a list

00:20:51.160 of like 100 such features,

00:20:52.740 and those are not

00:20:53.280 like small things.

00:20:54.940 Those are basic things

00:20:55.920 that you know

00:20:57.420 in every modern messaging app,

00:20:59.440 like the way

00:21:00.780 you respond to messages,

00:21:04.300 the way you share links,

00:21:05.340 the way you share documents,

00:21:06.480 the text formatting,

00:21:08.600 many, many, many, many things,

00:21:10.220 like dozens of those,

00:21:12.220 first appeared on Telegram,

00:21:13.900 and then three to eight years

00:21:16.380 after they've been copied

00:21:18.320 by our rivals,

00:21:21.120 one of which is larger

00:21:22.980 than Telegram

00:21:23.620 and others are smaller.

00:21:25.240 But still, we are proud.

00:21:26.540 I'm not going to guess.

00:21:28.280 The green one.

00:21:29.120 Yes.

00:21:30.040 But we are proud

00:21:30.900 that we've been able

00:21:32.740 to shape what the industry

00:21:35.220 is like today

00:21:36.200 and define how billions

00:21:38.000 of people communicate.

00:21:39.420 But it's just,

00:21:40.020 I'm just going back

00:21:40.900 to like this story,

00:21:42.180 which is,

00:21:42.940 by the way,

00:21:43.200 I love your Slavic

00:21:44.660 deadpan approach to this.

00:21:46.320 It's like,

00:21:47.040 it's crazy.

00:21:48.040 I mean,

00:21:48.400 if Mark Zuckerberg

00:21:49.640 or Elon got grabbed,

00:21:51.680 you know,

00:21:52.560 at the private part

00:21:54.560 of De Gaulle Airport,

00:21:56.020 you'd be like,

00:21:56.720 stop them.

00:21:57.240 Like, what?

00:21:58.220 The world is ending.

00:22:00.280 But they grabbed you

00:22:01.180 and people are like,

00:22:01.660 oh, he's got a Russian

00:22:02.460 last name.

00:22:02.980 It's fine.

00:22:03.380 I'm sure there's

00:22:03.700 a good reason.

00:22:04.260 I hope it had nothing

00:22:09.360 to do with my ethnicity

00:22:11.440 because that would be...

00:22:12.940 Of course it did.

00:22:13.360 Are you joking?

00:22:14.540 That would be very alarming

00:22:15.780 because...

00:22:16.900 You got run out of Russia,

00:22:18.140 by the way.

00:22:18.380 I just want to say that again.

00:22:19.260 You got run out.

00:22:19.740 You'd probably still be living there

00:22:20.800 if you hadn't had to leave.

00:22:22.360 So it's clearly

00:22:22.920 you didn't participate

00:22:23.680 in whatever they're mad about

00:22:24.900 in Russia.

00:22:25.500 You're gone.

00:22:26.760 Yeah,

00:22:27.240 but it still can make you

00:22:28.860 an easier target.

00:22:29.840 I'm aware of that.

00:22:30.840 Because people don't know

00:22:31.940 my story, right?

00:22:32.920 People...

00:22:33.720 Not everybody watched

00:22:34.560 our last interview

00:22:35.520 and not everybody

00:22:36.920 had...

00:22:37.580 Where was the...

00:22:38.520 So I was...

00:22:39.600 Well, I know you

00:22:40.220 and obviously I like you

00:22:41.240 and I like what you're doing.

00:22:43.360 I like your commitment

00:22:44.040 to privacy

00:22:44.640 and to the user

00:22:45.600 and I think the user's...

00:22:47.980 Privacy should play a role

00:22:49.040 in your thinking

00:22:50.360 about a business

00:22:50.920 and that's my view

00:22:51.980 and you agree.

00:22:52.780 Most companies don't agree.

00:22:53.920 So I'm on your side.

00:22:54.720 But where were all

00:22:56.580 the civil libertarians

00:22:57.620 jumping to your defense?

00:22:58.780 Like, can you just grab

00:22:59.700 someone at the airport

00:23:00.540 because...

00:23:02.220 Well, because who knows why?

00:23:03.260 Can you just do that?

00:23:04.340 Put him in jail

00:23:05.040 for four days?

00:23:05.660 Take his phone?

00:23:07.280 Like, where were

00:23:07.740 your defenders?

00:23:09.360 Well, to be fair,

00:23:11.460 some people did...

00:23:13.860 Yeah, some did.

00:23:14.400 ...speak up

00:23:14.900 and defended me.

00:23:17.640 And I...

00:23:18.340 Actually, there were

00:23:19.340 more than 10 million

00:23:20.880 or more than...

00:23:21.640 I think a very big number

00:23:23.100 of people who signed

00:23:24.840 a petition to free me.

00:23:26.820 Yeah.

00:23:27.100 So it was a very,

00:23:30.120 very large movement.

00:23:32.040 I received those...

00:23:32.160 But I'm thinking more like

00:23:32.960 the United Nations,

00:23:34.180 you know,

00:23:34.460 human rights watchdogs.

00:23:35.680 Like, where are they?

00:23:37.320 If this happened

00:23:38.200 in North Korea,

00:23:40.900 which, you know,

00:23:41.900 I don't know,

00:23:42.540 it hasn't, so...

00:23:43.880 But if it happened there,

00:23:44.680 it would be like,

00:23:45.100 oh my gosh,

00:23:45.600 it's Stalinism,

00:23:46.400 but it happens in France

00:23:47.320 and you're like,

00:23:47.620 oh, I'm sure

00:23:47.900 there's a good reason.

00:23:50.600 That's, you know,

00:23:51.500 that's what makes

00:23:52.380 the situation

00:23:53.020 so complicated

00:23:53.860 because we have to look

00:23:57.260 at the instances

00:23:58.920 such as this one

00:24:00.960 regardless of

00:24:02.740 which jurisdiction

00:24:04.820 I was born in,

00:24:08.000 which jurisdiction

00:24:08.680 is conducting

00:24:10.720 this investigation.

00:24:11.840 It should be completely

00:24:13.040 unbiased, right?

00:24:16.760 So it's very concerning.

00:24:20.800 Did they ask you

00:24:22.100 questions about Russia

00:24:23.020 during your four days

00:24:24.400 of detainment?

00:24:25.880 I think so,

00:24:27.000 but it wasn't

00:24:27.660 the focus

00:24:28.240 of their questioning.

00:24:31.080 The most questions

00:24:32.680 were about

00:24:33.560 the way

00:24:35.680 Telegram operates

00:24:36.660 as if it's

00:24:37.700 some kind of mystery.

00:24:38.920 You know,

00:24:39.120 we're a big company,

00:24:40.380 we're audited

00:24:40.900 by a big four

00:24:42.080 auditing firm,

00:24:45.860 we work with

00:24:46.780 the biggest

00:24:47.500 financial institution,

00:24:48.480 so we're a big company

00:24:50.160 and we spend

00:24:50.880 millions of dollars

00:24:52.680 every quarter

00:24:54.520 on legal compliance.

00:24:56.060 So we pay

00:24:56.740 to law firms

00:24:57.740 to receive

00:24:58.620 the best advice

00:24:59.580 in order to make sure

00:25:01.080 we don't violate

00:25:01.940 laws anywhere

00:25:03.120 and we operate

00:25:04.460 in almost 200 countries.

00:25:05.920 so it was very,

00:25:07.820 very surprising

00:25:09.080 for me

00:25:09.720 to get detained

00:25:11.880 in Paris

00:25:12.560 and learn

00:25:13.440 that Telegram

00:25:13.980 did something wrong

00:25:14.980 or didn't process

00:25:15.920 some requests.

00:25:18.640 And then

00:25:19.000 when I learned

00:25:19.980 more about it,

00:25:21.220 I realized

00:25:21.940 that we did

00:25:22.540 actually nothing wrong

00:25:23.640 because the law

00:25:25.100 is very clear

00:25:25.940 in describing

00:25:28.800 the process

00:25:29.500 that should be

00:25:30.100 followed

00:25:30.500 in order

00:25:31.680 for this request

00:25:32.560 to be processed

00:25:33.380 and it wasn't followed.

00:25:34.480 And that's something

00:25:36.260 that French prosecutors

00:25:37.300 could have found out

00:25:38.280 in about six minutes,

00:25:40.260 obviously.

00:25:41.060 That's the irony of it.

00:25:42.000 It was like

00:25:42.440 you could Google

00:25:43.240 Telegram

00:25:44.200 police contact,

00:25:45.520 Telegram EU

00:25:46.320 cooperation,

00:25:48.000 whatever,

00:25:48.400 and it would be

00:25:49.180 instantly visible

00:25:50.100 online

00:25:50.660 for anybody

00:25:51.700 who has access

00:25:52.460 to Google.

00:25:53.300 For some reason,

00:25:55.360 it wasn't used

00:25:56.900 by...

00:25:57.960 Right,

00:25:58.300 and you have to think

00:25:59.200 that there's like

00:25:59.900 a reason.

00:26:00.320 Before I ask about that,

00:26:01.200 how was the food

00:26:01.800 in French prison,

00:26:02.840 by the way?

00:26:03.300 There was...

00:26:05.920 I think they made

00:26:06.700 some exception

00:26:07.260 in relation to food

00:26:08.700 for me,

00:26:09.200 so it was fine.

00:26:09.900 I was fine.

00:26:11.000 It was pretty good.

00:26:12.600 I, you know,

00:26:13.160 I don't eat meat,

00:26:14.040 I don't eat fast food,

00:26:15.720 so I was good

00:26:17.320 with enough fish

00:26:20.140 that I could do

00:26:21.440 my 200 push-ups

00:26:23.680 in the morning,

00:26:24.680 like 200 squats,

00:26:26.540 and then I repeated it

00:26:27.580 because I didn't have

00:26:28.180 access to a gym,

00:26:29.220 so I kept my routine there.

00:26:31.920 Did you join a gang?

00:26:33.580 No,

00:26:34.020 I was alone there.

00:26:35.140 You were alone.

00:26:36.500 Maybe I can...

00:26:37.100 You put chips in your cell.

00:26:39.580 That's just,

00:26:40.080 the whole thing's incredible.

00:26:41.060 So,

00:26:41.700 where does it stand now?

00:26:43.600 You know,

00:26:43.820 we're in,

00:26:44.300 I should say,

00:26:44.800 we're in France right now.

00:26:46.580 You're still in France.

00:26:47.600 I'm still in France.

00:26:49.320 Many, many months later.

00:26:51.140 Eight,

00:26:51.480 almost eight months.

00:26:52.960 Eight months later,

00:26:53.580 you're still in France.

00:26:55.100 Why are you still here?

00:26:57.020 So,

00:26:57.740 there is this

00:26:58.640 limitation

00:27:00.820 on my

00:27:01.740 travel,

00:27:03.220 traveling ability,

00:27:04.460 so to say,

00:27:05.280 which is called

00:27:06.240 judicial control.

00:27:08.160 Judicial control

00:27:09.100 is when you can't

00:27:09.940 leave the country

00:27:10.700 freely

00:27:11.760 because there is still

00:27:13.100 investigation going on

00:27:14.360 and you're one of the

00:27:15.140 suspects or the suspect.

00:27:17.220 I was still

00:27:18.040 being allowed

00:27:19.920 to go to Dubai

00:27:21.600 and I

00:27:22.260 returned last week

00:27:24.360 from Dubai

00:27:25.340 and I will be going

00:27:26.660 to Dubai

00:27:27.240 later this week,

00:27:28.340 but it's,

00:27:29.000 it's a very,

00:27:30.100 very restricted,

00:27:31.120 controlled

00:27:31.700 process still.

00:27:34.540 And what's the idea there?

00:27:36.340 Since you own

00:27:37.160 a multi-billion dollar

00:27:38.380 company with a billion

00:27:39.380 users,

00:27:39.980 that's really famous.

00:27:40.820 Like,

00:27:41.000 where would you go

00:27:42.020 on planet Earth

00:27:42.760 if you were going

00:27:43.240 to run away?

00:27:44.400 Well,

00:27:44.600 that's exactly

00:27:45.260 the source

00:27:47.660 of my misunderstanding

00:27:48.480 and my confusion

00:27:49.480 here,

00:27:50.040 so I'm not running

00:27:51.820 anywhere and,

00:27:52.500 you know,

00:27:52.760 I've been to Dubai,

00:27:53.600 I came back,

00:27:54.540 so it's very hard

00:27:55.360 for me to understand

00:27:56.340 my role in being here

00:27:57.960 because I'm required

00:27:59.800 to answer some questions

00:28:01.360 in relation to Telegram

00:28:02.640 every,

00:28:03.220 like,

00:28:04.040 fifth month

00:28:04.700 or fourth month,

00:28:05.820 so the other,

00:28:07.400 like,

00:28:07.980 three or four months

00:28:08.740 I am just

00:28:09.340 having to be here

00:28:12.120 for reasons

00:28:13.240 that are very hard

00:28:14.700 for me to understand.

00:28:16.500 What's their argument?

00:28:17.880 I mean,

00:28:18.020 I'm just confused,

00:28:18.640 so no one's actually,

00:28:19.700 despite the headlines

00:28:20.620 that flooded the world

00:28:22.760 in August

00:28:23.240 when you were arrested,

00:28:24.740 detained,

00:28:25.360 whatever they're calling it,

00:28:26.580 put in a cell,

00:28:28.320 you were not involved

00:28:29.660 in kiddie porn,

00:28:31.100 drug sales,

00:28:32.880 organized crime,

00:28:33.760 arms sales,

00:28:33.980 I can't even remember,

00:28:34.620 but, like,

00:28:34.980 the worst crimes

00:28:35.480 in the world,

00:28:36.440 no one is actually

00:28:37.880 claiming you were

00:28:38.440 involved in those crimes,

00:28:39.340 correct?

00:28:39.980 Correct.

00:28:40.700 Okay.

00:28:41.440 They're saying

00:28:41.980 that you had,

00:28:43.180 of your billion users,

00:28:44.460 there were a few

00:28:45.160 who may have been

00:28:45.940 doing bad things,

00:28:46.700 and you're saying,

00:28:47.580 I tried,

00:28:48.680 but I didn't know that,

00:28:50.500 it's not my fault,

00:28:51.160 right?

00:28:51.640 Correct.

00:28:53.080 It'd be like saying

00:28:54.080 to Donald Trump,

00:28:55.240 there are 350 million

00:28:56.200 people in America,

00:28:57.740 you know,

00:28:57.980 one-third the number

00:28:58.600 of users you have,

00:28:59.640 and some of them

00:29:01.020 are using kiddie porn

00:29:02.040 or selling drugs

00:29:02.880 or, you know,

00:29:03.820 organized crime,

00:29:04.640 and we're putting you

00:29:05.380 in jail for it.

00:29:06.400 I mean,

00:29:06.940 that's like,

00:29:07.400 it's insane.

00:29:08.700 So why are you

00:29:09.600 still here?

00:29:10.060 Like,

00:29:10.240 what is the claim

00:29:10.800 against you?

00:29:13.640 I'm still trying

00:29:14.460 to find out,

00:29:15.260 to be honest.

00:29:16.300 I'm still confused.

00:29:17.680 So at first,

00:29:18.680 they said,

00:29:19.940 oh,

00:29:20.080 you failed to respond

00:29:21.300 to our legal request,

00:29:23.020 and that's why

00:29:23.760 you're complicit.

00:29:25.740 But first of all,

00:29:27.080 it's not true

00:29:28.520 that we didn't respond

00:29:30.000 to legally banning

00:29:30.760 legal requests.

00:29:31.540 And secondly,

00:29:32.120 it's a very

00:29:34.960 extensive

00:29:37.200 interpretation

00:29:38.000 of complicity,

00:29:40.080 even for

00:29:40.880 the French

00:29:41.660 legal and judicial

00:29:44.640 system.

00:29:46.560 What I hear

00:29:47.860 from my lawyers

00:29:48.740 is that it's

00:29:49.660 quite unprecedented.

00:29:50.720 They had

00:29:51.180 a couple of

00:29:52.400 really small

00:29:53.180 niche apps

00:29:53.820 that are like

00:29:54.680 10,000 smaller

00:29:55.720 than Telegram

00:29:56.560 and were

00:29:57.680 targeted

00:29:58.460 specifically

00:29:59.140 at criminals.

00:30:01.060 They were nothing

00:30:01.520 like that.

00:30:01.880 They didn't even

00:30:02.340 have these companies,

00:30:03.480 they didn't even

00:30:04.340 have bank accounts.

00:30:06.840 It was a different

00:30:08.340 profile.

00:30:09.000 They were not

00:30:09.480 audited by

00:30:10.520 Big Four

00:30:11.560 organization.

00:30:14.300 But

00:30:14.500 these companies

00:30:16.520 have been persecuted

00:30:17.580 in France

00:30:18.520 before,

00:30:20.100 and their

00:30:21.060 founders,

00:30:22.760 I understand,

00:30:24.020 were accused

00:30:25.440 of running

00:30:26.900 a platform

00:30:27.680 that is

00:30:29.740 created for

00:30:30.540 the purpose

00:30:31.100 to facilitate

00:30:31.960 crime.

00:30:33.920 It's pretty

00:30:34.580 much obvious

00:30:35.160 that Telegram

00:30:35.680 is not

00:30:36.240 such a company.

00:30:37.920 It has a

00:30:39.320 billion users,

00:30:40.280 every eighth

00:30:40.980 person on the

00:30:42.220 planet is a

00:30:43.020 user of

00:30:44.260 Telegram,

00:30:44.920 a regular

00:30:46.080 one.

00:30:47.020 And it's

00:30:48.580 incomprehensible

00:30:49.540 to assume

00:30:50.320 that all these

00:30:50.900 people are criminals.

00:30:52.780 And everybody

00:30:53.800 knows the story

00:30:54.480 of Telegram

00:30:54.840 very well.

00:30:55.420 It's not

00:30:55.840 something that

00:30:56.520 was built

00:30:57.240 for criminals.

00:30:58.820 However,

00:31:00.300 this reasoning,

00:31:01.580 as far as I

00:31:02.260 understand,

00:31:02.860 is being

00:31:03.400 used also

00:31:05.260 in our case.

00:31:07.060 They say

00:31:07.560 that,

00:31:07.940 all right,

00:31:08.380 so you

00:31:09.400 created this

00:31:10.840 app,

00:31:11.640 and this app

00:31:12.800 was used

00:31:13.520 by other

00:31:13.880 people.

00:31:15.320 They were

00:31:16.040 criminals,

00:31:16.760 and you

00:31:17.260 didn't do

00:31:17.920 enough to

00:31:19.100 prevent them

00:31:19.960 from doing

00:31:21.040 what they were

00:31:21.660 doing.

00:31:22.220 which,

00:31:24.400 again,

00:31:24.800 is contrary

00:31:26.360 to what we

00:31:27.220 see on

00:31:28.280 other platforms.

00:31:29.100 You have

00:31:29.780 instances

00:31:30.780 where problematic

00:31:32.600 content exists

00:31:33.960 despite the

00:31:34.620 best efforts

00:31:35.320 of social

00:31:37.440 media platforms,

00:31:38.580 moderation

00:31:38.940 teams,

00:31:39.800 and so on

00:31:40.240 and so forth.

00:31:40.860 It's almost

00:31:41.640 impossible to

00:31:42.520 avoid that.

00:31:44.660 But the

00:31:45.580 claim itself

00:31:46.280 just conceptually

00:31:47.020 doesn't make

00:31:47.420 sense.

00:31:47.800 I mean,

00:31:47.980 if someone

00:31:48.280 commits armed

00:31:48.860 robbery in

00:31:49.580 Burgundy or

00:31:50.360 Toulouse or

00:31:51.160 Nice,

00:31:52.220 can President

00:31:52.900 Macron be

00:31:53.420 arrested for

00:31:54.000 that?

00:31:54.380 Because it's

00:31:54.920 his country,

00:31:55.460 he runs

00:31:55.740 the country,

00:31:56.480 and he

00:31:57.540 didn't do

00:31:57.880 enough to

00:31:58.260 stop the

00:31:58.680 armed robbery

00:31:59.200 in Toulouse.

00:31:59.980 Like,

00:32:00.280 how can that

00:32:00.900 stand?

00:32:01.380 Why isn't

00:32:01.740 he in jail?

00:32:02.340 Like,

00:32:02.560 that's nuts.

00:32:05.860 Well,

00:32:06.120 the logic

00:32:06.600 also eludes

00:32:07.520 me,

00:32:07.900 so to say.

00:32:10.580 Back with

00:32:11.160 the Russian

00:32:11.800 understatement.

00:32:12.600 No,

00:32:12.880 it's,

00:32:14.040 so,

00:32:14.380 look,

00:32:14.560 here's the

00:32:14.860 inescapable

00:32:15.400 conclusion,

00:32:16.020 I think,

00:32:16.400 from a

00:32:16.800 bystander's

00:32:17.480 perspective,

00:32:18.680 that they

00:32:19.040 do this in

00:32:19.580 public rather

00:32:20.080 than just

00:32:20.360 calling you,

00:32:21.140 so we have

00:32:21.460 a problem,

00:32:22.000 we're

00:32:22.140 working out

00:32:22.520 or call

00:32:22.960 your lawyers.

00:32:24.060 They arrest

00:32:24.900 you in public,

00:32:25.560 they slander

00:32:26.100 you,

00:32:26.620 they try

00:32:27.000 and tie

00:32:27.340 you to

00:32:27.620 the worst

00:32:27.940 crimes

00:32:28.340 man commits,

00:32:30.400 and then

00:32:31.500 they put

00:32:31.740 you in jail.

00:32:33.580 And so

00:32:34.220 they're trying

00:32:35.100 to sweat

00:32:35.700 you,

00:32:36.640 to intimidate

00:32:37.200 you,

00:32:38.400 to wear

00:32:39.140 you down

00:32:39.600 in order

00:32:40.180 to get

00:32:40.720 into the

00:32:41.440 back door

00:32:41.800 of telegrams,

00:32:42.480 they can

00:32:42.780 spy on

00:32:43.400 people,

00:32:44.360 probably

00:32:45.020 really for

00:32:45.420 political

00:32:45.720 reasons.

00:32:46.540 What they're

00:32:47.060 really worried

00:32:47.520 about is a

00:32:48.100 revolt in

00:32:48.660 their own

00:32:48.960 country.

00:32:49.360 Every

00:32:49.480 government's

00:32:49.860 really worried

00:32:50.580 mostly about

00:32:51.060 its own

00:32:51.560 population

00:32:52.620 revolting

00:32:53.140 against

00:32:53.420 its bad

00:32:53.740 governance,

00:32:54.320 like that's

00:32:54.600 their real

00:32:54.980 fear.

00:32:56.020 And they

00:32:56.440 hate

00:32:56.940 telegram because

00:32:58.080 it offers

00:32:58.660 users privacy

00:32:59.480 and that's

00:32:59.960 a threat

00:33:00.200 to them.

00:33:01.460 And so

00:33:01.660 they force

00:33:02.440 you as the

00:33:02.800 owner of the

00:33:03.120 company to

00:33:04.000 give them

00:33:04.260 the keys.

00:33:05.180 That's what

00:33:05.660 it looks

00:33:05.920 like.

00:33:06.200 Well, to

00:33:07.020 be clear,

00:33:07.440 nobody

00:33:07.740 approached me

00:33:08.760 with the

00:33:09.400 demand to

00:33:10.340 give the

00:33:11.120 so-called

00:33:11.760 keys.

00:33:12.620 Such keys

00:33:13.180 don't exist

00:33:13.620 technically,

00:33:14.160 but if

00:33:14.780 somebody

00:33:15.780 approaches me

00:33:16.500 and says,

00:33:17.260 we need

00:33:17.480 the keys,

00:33:18.480 you'll be

00:33:18.800 the first

00:33:19.340 to learn

00:33:20.580 about it.

00:33:21.380 But that

00:33:22.040 hasn't

00:33:22.460 happened.

00:33:23.280 Actually,

00:33:23.640 the U.S.

00:33:23.940 government

00:33:24.160 pushed you.

00:33:25.140 I remember

00:33:25.340 the FBI

00:33:25.860 was trying

00:33:26.380 to.

00:33:26.740 Yeah.

00:33:28.020 Yeah.

00:33:28.580 Because this

00:33:29.040 is something

00:33:29.320 governments want,

00:33:30.040 not just of

00:33:30.540 you, but of

00:33:31.020 all social media

00:33:31.720 companies.

00:33:32.120 You know what's

00:33:32.680 interesting?

00:33:33.040 In the

00:33:33.380 U.S.,

00:33:34.000 you have a

00:33:34.880 process that

00:33:36.700 allows the

00:33:37.740 government to

00:33:38.900 actually force

00:33:40.380 any engineer

00:33:41.460 in any tech

00:33:42.940 company to

00:33:43.800 implement a

00:33:44.520 backdoor and

00:33:45.360 not tell anyone

00:33:46.160 about it with

00:33:47.300 using this

00:33:47.800 process called

00:33:48.360 the gag order

00:33:49.140 and there are

00:33:50.700 certain legal

00:33:51.220 procedures.

00:33:51.780 Not tell his

00:33:52.080 own employer

00:33:52.580 about it?

00:33:53.420 Yes, exactly.

00:33:55.000 If you tell

00:33:55.480 your own boss,

00:33:56.660 you can end

00:33:57.080 up in jail,

00:33:57.600 like gag order.

00:33:59.560 Actually?

00:34:00.220 Yeah.

00:34:01.020 This is

00:34:01.320 something that's

00:34:02.240 on Wikipedia.

00:34:03.600 In France.

00:34:04.940 In the

00:34:05.380 Soviet Union

00:34:05.900 or in the

00:34:06.660 U.S.?

00:34:07.020 In the U.S.

00:34:10.460 Okay.

00:34:11.360 I'm not

00:34:11.820 criticizing.

00:34:12.160 So your

00:34:12.480 employees have

00:34:13.600 a legal

00:34:14.300 obligation to

00:34:15.560 act as

00:34:16.180 fifth column

00:34:16.800 spies,

00:34:18.340 saboteurs

00:34:18.960 against you,

00:34:19.800 your employees.

00:34:20.580 Well, that's

00:34:21.100 one of the

00:34:21.980 reasons we

00:34:22.940 didn't discuss

00:34:23.440 last time

00:34:24.040 why I

00:34:25.620 didn't move

00:34:26.120 to the U.S.

00:34:26.660 with my team.

00:34:27.460 And you got

00:34:27.900 mugged in San

00:34:28.380 Francisco on

00:34:28.940 your one

00:34:29.240 trip there.

00:34:29.960 Exactly.

00:34:31.040 I never

00:34:31.520 forgot that.

00:34:31.580 But I

00:34:32.240 did this

00:34:32.680 extensive

00:34:33.100 legal analysis.

00:34:34.180 I asked

00:34:34.740 my lawyers,

00:34:35.280 the U.S.

00:34:35.680 lawyers,

00:34:35.980 what is this

00:34:36.500 thing called

00:34:36.960 the gag order?

00:34:38.240 And they

00:34:38.560 explained it

00:34:39.120 to me and

00:34:40.000 how it works

00:34:40.640 and how it

00:34:41.180 could potentially

00:34:41.760 be applied.

00:34:43.120 So I

00:34:43.360 decided maybe

00:34:44.180 not the

00:34:44.560 best place

00:34:45.640 for a

00:34:46.100 privacy-oriented

00:34:47.020 platform.

00:34:48.620 But here in

00:34:49.340 France, we

00:34:49.940 really don't

00:34:50.560 know because

00:34:51.740 there are a

00:34:52.480 lot of

00:34:53.000 conspiracy theories

00:34:53.840 about it.

00:34:54.380 At first,

00:34:54.880 I thought I

00:34:55.460 also started

00:34:56.320 to be concerned.

00:34:57.000 what is

00:34:57.860 this about?

00:34:59.060 But then

00:34:59.600 when the

00:35:00.980 French police

00:35:02.260 and the

00:35:02.600 French judges

00:35:03.160 started to

00:35:03.980 send their

00:35:05.020 requests in

00:35:06.000 accordance to

00:35:06.620 the European

00:35:07.280 law to

00:35:07.940 Telegram and

00:35:09.440 receive the

00:35:10.620 identification

00:35:11.280 data, meaning

00:35:12.120 the IP address

00:35:13.120 of criminal

00:35:13.620 suspects, they

00:35:15.140 seemed to

00:35:15.720 become very

00:35:16.380 happy.

00:35:17.180 They expressed

00:35:18.580 their joy in

00:35:20.660 the press.

00:35:21.640 They said,

00:35:22.040 oh, Telegram is

00:35:22.540 now cooperating.

00:35:23.380 all of a

00:35:24.820 sudden, as

00:35:25.620 if it was

00:35:26.020 something new.

00:35:26.920 Can I ask you

00:35:27.280 to pause?

00:35:27.700 When they

00:35:28.240 said that, I

00:35:28.680 remember that

00:35:29.080 very well.

00:35:29.720 Yeah.

00:35:31.520 That sounded

00:35:32.380 to me like

00:35:33.680 they were

00:35:34.140 trying to

00:35:34.840 discredit you

00:35:36.000 and were

00:35:36.820 sending the

00:35:37.340 message because

00:35:37.820 they were not

00:35:38.140 specific.

00:35:38.600 They said

00:35:38.820 they're

00:35:39.060 cooperating.

00:35:40.560 And that

00:35:41.200 made it sound

00:35:41.880 to the rest

00:35:42.740 of the world

00:35:43.140 like, oh,

00:35:43.800 they broke

00:35:44.300 Pavel.

00:35:45.000 They hung

00:35:45.380 him by his

00:35:45.800 angles and

00:35:46.280 burned him

00:35:46.640 with Galois

00:35:47.260 until he

00:35:47.760 finally gave

00:35:48.300 up and

00:35:48.780 turned over

00:35:49.880 the back end

00:35:51.400 to them and

00:35:51.980 now they're

00:35:52.280 spying and

00:35:52.740 all telegram

00:35:53.280 users.

00:35:53.820 You're

00:35:53.960 cooperating

00:35:54.840 like you

00:35:55.480 would in

00:35:55.800 East Germany

00:35:56.340 in 1975.

00:35:57.560 That's what

00:35:58.060 it sounded

00:35:58.360 like.

00:35:59.640 Yeah, that's

00:36:00.360 why it's so

00:36:00.820 important to

00:36:01.280 clarify this

00:36:01.920 because this

00:36:02.580 perception is

00:36:03.580 not only bad

00:36:04.220 for Telegram,

00:36:04.900 it's even

00:36:05.200 worse for

00:36:06.020 the image

00:36:06.680 of France.

00:36:07.700 Because if

00:36:08.140 you think

00:36:08.740 about it,

00:36:09.660 France is

00:36:10.280 still a

00:36:11.720 land where

00:36:12.580 laws and

00:36:14.040 legal procedures

00:36:14.640 should be

00:36:15.660 adhered to.

00:36:17.360 And even

00:36:17.800 in this case,

00:36:18.300 if you want

00:36:19.020 additional

00:36:20.000 access to

00:36:22.180 certain

00:36:22.640 data,

00:36:23.920 personal

00:36:24.220 data,

00:36:25.240 it has to

00:36:25.800 be done

00:36:26.100 in accordance

00:36:26.520 with laws.

00:36:27.620 And then

00:36:27.820 every company,

00:36:28.440 for example,

00:36:28.860 us, we never

00:36:29.400 disclose private

00:36:30.280 messaging data

00:36:31.260 to any third

00:36:32.460 party, including

00:36:33.120 governments.

00:36:34.100 And if in

00:36:35.220 some country

00:36:35.800 they would

00:36:36.140 say you

00:36:36.520 have to

00:36:37.120 do it,

00:36:38.160 we would

00:36:38.460 discontinue

00:36:39.120 providing

00:36:39.600 services in

00:36:40.560 that country

00:36:41.020 than doing

00:36:42.020 it.

00:36:42.500 Isn't that

00:36:42.820 why you left

00:36:43.180 Russia in the

00:36:43.640 first place?

00:36:44.180 Yes.

00:36:45.000 So you've

00:36:45.540 been through

00:36:46.000 this, you

00:36:46.880 left your own

00:36:47.500 country because

00:36:48.260 you refused

00:36:48.800 to give

00:36:49.140 up the

00:36:50.600 privacy of

00:36:51.060 the user.

00:36:51.760 Yeah.

00:36:52.580 But here

00:36:53.780 it's catching

00:36:54.740 up because

00:36:55.280 last month

00:36:56.340 the Senate

00:36:57.620 here in

00:36:58.580 France passed

00:36:59.720 a law

00:37:00.300 basically banning

00:37:01.880 encryption.

00:37:03.520 This law

00:37:04.220 was forcing

00:37:06.300 all messaging

00:37:07.340 app providers

00:37:08.400 to implement

00:37:09.340 the back

00:37:09.880 door for

00:37:10.960 the French

00:37:11.320 law enforcement

00:37:12.000 to fight

00:37:13.500 crime.

00:37:14.560 The problem

00:37:15.720 here was

00:37:16.440 there is

00:37:19.580 no such

00:37:19.980 thing as

00:37:20.400 an exclusive

00:37:21.060 back door.

00:37:21.680 If you

00:37:21.900 implement

00:37:22.260 the back

00:37:22.720 door,

00:37:23.680 technically

00:37:24.220 other

00:37:25.800 actors

00:37:26.960 are able

00:37:28.140 to exploit

00:37:29.100 it.

00:37:29.660 And it

00:37:29.860 could be

00:37:30.140 foreign

00:37:30.420 agents,

00:37:30.980 it could

00:37:31.080 be hackers,

00:37:31.680 it could

00:37:31.820 be anyone.

00:37:32.740 So that

00:37:33.940 law would

00:37:34.460 have put

00:37:35.320 millions

00:37:36.340 of people

00:37:37.560 or tens

00:37:38.440 of millions

00:37:38.840 of French

00:37:39.600 citizens

00:37:40.720 in danger.

00:37:41.900 Their private

00:37:42.560 messages would

00:37:43.600 have been

00:37:44.180 exposed.

00:37:44.740 the

00:37:46.560 criminals

00:37:46.900 however

00:37:47.340 would have

00:37:48.160 instantly

00:37:48.740 switched

00:37:49.260 to

00:37:49.640 niche

00:37:50.560 smaller

00:37:52.020 apps,

00:37:52.640 not

00:37:53.040 mainstream

00:37:53.400 apps.

00:37:54.460 And if

00:37:54.680 the

00:37:54.820 government

00:37:55.060 would try

00:37:57.100 to ban

00:37:57.880 these apps,

00:37:58.420 they would

00:37:58.660 switch to

00:37:59.060 VPNs,

00:37:59.720 they would

00:38:00.520 even become

00:38:01.420 more efficient

00:38:02.020 in hiding

00:38:02.560 their traces.

00:38:03.620 So the

00:38:04.280 criminals

00:38:04.600 would

00:38:04.940 experience

00:38:06.080 zero

00:38:06.420 problems

00:38:07.000 if that

00:38:08.700 law

00:38:09.140 is passed.

00:38:10.720 It's the

00:38:11.300 law-abiding

00:38:11.940 citizens

00:38:12.580 who would

00:38:14.040 be

00:38:14.560 affected.

00:38:15.340 And that's

00:38:15.740 why it's

00:38:16.080 so problematic.

00:38:17.020 And nobody

00:38:17.400 was talking

00:38:18.020 about it.

00:38:18.460 I asked my

00:38:18.800 French friends,

00:38:19.960 like, have

00:38:20.260 you heard

00:38:20.540 about this

00:38:20.960 law?

00:38:22.020 No.

00:38:23.320 They were

00:38:24.000 completely

00:38:24.780 unaware.

00:38:25.940 And luckily,

00:38:27.540 the National

00:38:28.280 Assembly here

00:38:29.500 in France

00:38:30.020 shot that

00:38:31.300 bill down.

00:38:32.320 So it

00:38:33.140 didn't pass

00:38:33.580 this time.

00:38:34.600 But if you

00:38:35.160 look at the

00:38:36.000 new project

00:38:37.240 by the EU,

00:38:38.400 by the

00:38:39.120 European

00:38:39.480 Commission

00:38:40.060 published

00:38:41.680 in early

00:38:42.260 April,

00:38:43.640 they again

00:38:44.740 want to do

00:38:45.880 exactly that

00:38:46.700 to backdoor

00:38:47.740 encryption,

00:38:48.560 but now

00:38:49.560 on the

00:38:50.380 EU level.

00:38:52.020 And that

00:38:52.500 raises many

00:38:53.100 serious

00:38:53.500 questions because

00:38:54.380 no country

00:38:55.780 in the

00:38:56.280 world

00:38:56.760 banned

00:38:57.940 encryption

00:38:58.440 so far.

00:38:59.120 Even the

00:38:59.560 places that

00:39:00.360 you would

00:39:00.660 consider

00:39:01.060 authoritarian

00:39:01.560 places.

00:39:02.560 For reasons

00:39:03.340 that I just

00:39:03.840 described,

00:39:04.860 it's just a

00:39:05.740 huge threat

00:39:06.440 for the

00:39:07.080 entire

00:39:07.340 population.

00:39:07.900 For all

00:39:09.420 users.

00:39:09.980 For all

00:39:10.320 users to

00:39:11.040 legally force

00:39:12.900 companies to

00:39:13.500 implement

00:39:13.800 backdoors.

00:39:15.120 So I

00:39:16.100 think it's

00:39:17.260 very important

00:39:18.200 that people

00:39:19.120 talk about

00:39:19.660 these things.

00:39:20.500 First of

00:39:20.960 all,

00:39:21.260 that France

00:39:22.520 is not

00:39:23.660 a country

00:39:25.660 where

00:39:26.120 freedoms are

00:39:27.300 disrespected.

00:39:28.520 For example,

00:39:29.440 if people

00:39:29.800 assume that

00:39:30.620 France can

00:39:31.580 now take

00:39:32.740 CEOs of

00:39:33.540 tech

00:39:34.880 companies

00:39:35.320 hostage

00:39:37.960 in such

00:39:38.800 a way

00:39:39.220 that you

00:39:40.160 describe

00:39:40.520 and then

00:39:41.780 extract

00:39:42.400 certain

00:39:43.580 personal

00:39:44.120 data from

00:39:44.720 them

00:39:45.080 using

00:39:45.880 illegal

00:39:46.940 and

00:39:47.220 unlawful

00:39:47.860 processes,

00:39:49.060 that would

00:39:50.120 be a big,

00:39:50.740 big blow

00:39:51.300 for the

00:39:51.620 image of

00:39:51.960 France.

00:39:52.180 But I

00:39:52.360 don't think

00:39:52.760 we're

00:39:52.980 there.

00:39:54.000 It might

00:39:54.680 chip away

00:39:55.260 at this

00:39:55.580 concept of

00:39:56.440 the rules

00:39:57.640 based

00:39:58.080 order.

00:39:59.660 The rules

00:40:00.400 based order,

00:40:01.120 which everyone

00:40:01.500 in NATO is

00:40:02.040 always lecturing

00:40:02.600 everybody else

00:40:03.220 about.

00:40:03.440 The rules

00:40:03.760 based order,

00:40:05.280 there's

00:40:05.540 nothing

00:40:05.720 rules

00:40:06.120 based

00:40:06.480 about what

00:40:06.760 they did

00:40:07.040 to you.

00:40:07.500 I'm sorry.

00:40:08.160 I mean,

00:40:08.380 that's just,

00:40:08.980 that's might

00:40:09.400 makes right.

00:40:10.120 That's,

00:40:10.700 we have guns

00:40:11.120 and you

00:40:11.380 don't.

00:40:12.000 It's our

00:40:12.300 airport,

00:40:12.720 not yours.

00:40:13.300 You're

00:40:13.600 going to

00:40:13.880 jail.

00:40:14.840 I just

00:40:15.240 don't see

00:40:15.840 the legal

00:40:16.160 justification

00:40:16.600 for doing

00:40:17.320 this to

00:40:17.780 anybody.

00:40:19.480 It was

00:40:20.460 excessive

00:40:21.080 in my

00:40:22.320 view.

00:40:23.540 But it

00:40:24.300 was also

00:40:25.100 a sign

00:40:25.660 that,

00:40:26.240 again,

00:40:28.340 in my

00:40:28.660 view,

00:40:29.240 this

00:40:29.920 investigation

00:40:30.500 was not

00:40:31.380 based on

00:40:32.560 thorough

00:40:33.560 analysis

00:40:34.180 of what

00:40:34.880 Telegram

00:40:35.240 represents

00:40:36.020 and what

00:40:38.080 the goals

00:40:38.480 of the

00:40:38.720 company

00:40:39.000 are.

00:40:39.880 And again,

00:40:40.680 there has

00:40:41.680 been no

00:40:42.280 attempt and

00:40:43.060 they didn't

00:40:44.740 even try

00:40:45.280 to solve

00:40:47.340 this in a

00:40:48.700 more traditional,

00:40:50.500 conventional

00:40:50.880 way before

00:40:52.420 starting.

00:40:52.740 A legal way,

00:40:53.680 actually.

00:40:54.180 A legal and

00:40:54.820 diplomatic way.

00:40:55.580 What did

00:40:56.680 they do

00:40:56.860 with your

00:40:57.140 phone?

00:40:58.340 Well,

00:40:58.500 they just

00:40:58.720 kept my

00:40:59.060 phone.

00:40:59.580 I hope

00:41:00.000 they scrutinize

00:41:01.780 it because

00:41:02.260 there they

00:41:02.880 have a lot

00:41:03.300 of proof

00:41:04.360 that actually

00:41:05.820 Telegram is

00:41:07.440 a completely

00:41:08.180 legitimate and

00:41:09.620 compliant

00:41:10.160 organization.

00:41:11.420 And we've

00:41:11.780 spent huge

00:41:14.100 funds on

00:41:15.080 content

00:41:15.640 moderation and

00:41:16.620 legal compliance

00:41:17.580 all over the

00:41:18.240 world since

00:41:18.780 like 10

00:41:19.240 years ago.

00:41:20.000 So they're

00:41:21.060 welcome to

00:41:21.500 have my

00:41:21.840 phone.

00:41:22.300 Who sells

00:41:22.600 your bonds?

00:41:25.480 Yeah,

00:41:26.040 so Telegram

00:41:26.480 issued bonds

00:41:27.360 a few years

00:41:28.520 ago.

00:41:29.240 We were

00:41:29.940 happy to

00:41:31.680 have the

00:41:33.340 assistance of

00:41:33.860 JP Morgan,

00:41:35.160 the world's

00:41:35.800 biggest bank.

00:41:37.480 World's biggest

00:41:37.960 bank.

00:41:38.240 So I only

00:41:38.860 asked,

00:41:39.180 I knew that

00:41:39.620 and I just

00:41:40.020 wanted you to

00:41:40.340 say it because

00:41:40.900 just to

00:41:41.920 underscore the

00:41:42.480 point,

00:41:43.240 you're not

00:41:43.720 like some

00:41:44.300 bellow Russian

00:41:46.100 college student

00:41:46.900 doing this out

00:41:47.540 of your room

00:41:48.140 or something.

00:41:48.600 This is like a

00:41:49.340 worldwide huge

00:41:50.400 company.

00:41:51.440 It's just

00:41:51.800 absolutely

00:41:52.340 crazy and

00:41:52.960 it doesn't

00:41:53.440 have as deep

00:41:53.980 penetration in

00:41:54.620 the United

00:41:54.840 States as

00:41:55.900 it does in

00:41:56.340 the rest of

00:41:56.720 the world.

00:41:57.060 So I just

00:41:57.400 want people to

00:41:58.460 know this is

00:41:59.860 not some

00:42:00.300 sketchy deal.

00:42:02.040 This is like,

00:42:02.820 I just can't

00:42:03.560 believe they

00:42:03.820 did that.

00:42:05.780 Where are you

00:42:06.420 now in the

00:42:07.400 process?

00:42:09.020 So the

00:42:09.620 process is

00:42:10.700 not going

00:42:12.580 too fast,

00:42:13.660 but this is

00:42:14.640 the tradition

00:42:16.080 here in

00:42:16.560 France.

00:42:17.060 So I'm

00:42:18.100 not...

00:42:18.920 I'm just

00:42:19.880 visiting for a

00:42:20.460 couple days.

00:42:20.820 You think I'll

00:42:21.100 get out of

00:42:21.440 here?

00:42:21.800 So I

00:42:24.620 haven't been

00:42:25.120 granted a

00:42:25.940 fast track

00:42:26.620 in my

00:42:28.680 case.

00:42:31.280 And,

00:42:32.160 you know,

00:42:33.700 I've just

00:42:34.220 seen my

00:42:34.800 investigative

00:42:35.880 judges.

00:42:36.660 They have

00:42:37.000 this role

00:42:40.100 of investigative

00:42:40.740 judges here

00:42:41.500 in France.

00:42:41.920 So my

00:42:42.760 current status

00:42:44.080 is I'm

00:42:45.160 not on

00:42:45.460 trial.

00:42:46.440 It's an

00:42:47.200 investigation

00:42:47.960 intended

00:42:49.340 to find

00:42:51.020 out

00:42:51.500 whether

00:42:52.120 there'll

00:42:52.860 be enough

00:42:53.620 evidence

00:42:54.300 to put

00:42:55.420 this on

00:42:55.720 trial.

00:42:56.620 So I'm

00:42:56.840 not even

00:42:57.120 on trial

00:42:57.500 yet.

00:42:58.240 But you're

00:42:58.660 basically

00:42:58.980 imprisoned in

00:42:59.740 France.

00:43:00.080 Well, I'm

00:43:01.040 not in

00:43:01.460 prison, but

00:43:02.340 can you

00:43:02.760 leave whenever

00:43:04.440 you want?

00:43:05.000 I can't

00:43:05.480 leave France

00:43:05.980 freely, that's

00:43:06.720 true.

00:43:07.860 So how is

00:43:08.980 that not

00:43:09.280 imprisoned?

00:43:11.300 I mean,

00:43:12.060 there are

00:43:13.200 great

00:43:13.820 restaurants,

00:43:14.600 you know

00:43:15.240 what I

00:43:15.420 mean?

00:43:15.740 It's not a

00:43:16.340 commissary with

00:43:17.420 guys with

00:43:18.300 face tattoos,

00:43:19.120 but if you

00:43:19.820 can't leave,

00:43:20.560 then aren't

00:43:20.820 you by

00:43:21.040 definition

00:43:21.480 imprisoned?

00:43:23.420 You could

00:43:23.780 say so.

00:43:24.300 I just

00:43:24.980 don't want

00:43:25.440 to create

00:43:25.840 this image

00:43:26.420 of a real

00:43:26.960 prison in

00:43:27.660 the minds

00:43:28.360 of our

00:43:28.720 viewers.

00:43:29.280 I don't

00:43:29.840 know if

00:43:30.000 anyone can

00:43:30.320 see the

00:43:30.640 cell we're

00:43:31.100 in.

00:43:31.400 It's pretty

00:43:31.940 nice, room

00:43:32.740 service and

00:43:33.160 everything.

00:43:33.540 I mean, no,

00:43:33.840 it's France.

00:43:34.480 It's like

00:43:34.920 first world

00:43:36.200 in some

00:43:36.680 ways, but

00:43:37.060 not in

00:43:37.420 its

00:43:37.560 attitudes,

00:43:38.120 I'm

00:43:38.540 learning.

00:43:40.060 So how

00:43:40.660 long will

00:43:41.000 that continue?

00:43:41.760 And you've

00:43:42.200 got children,

00:43:44.500 you know, and

00:43:45.180 a life and

00:43:45.980 a business and

00:43:46.660 friends and

00:43:47.200 family, and

00:43:47.960 they're not in

00:43:49.060 France as far

00:43:49.560 as I know.

00:43:50.620 Yes, they're

00:43:51.380 all in Dubai,

00:43:52.280 and I have

00:43:53.100 kids in

00:43:54.460 Dubai that

00:43:55.460 I am unable

00:43:56.600 to not

00:43:57.980 just see,

00:43:58.660 I'm unable

00:43:59.280 to legally

00:44:00.980 take care of

00:44:01.880 them by

00:44:02.360 signing certain

00:44:03.080 documents I

00:44:03.780 have to

00:44:04.160 sign, and

00:44:05.060 I've, you

00:44:07.040 know, it's

00:44:08.140 been very

00:44:10.200 stressful also

00:44:11.020 for my mom

00:44:12.320 who is

00:44:13.560 gravely ill,

00:44:14.520 like, and

00:44:14.780 I can't see

00:44:15.460 her.

00:44:17.300 I also have

00:44:18.020 this company

00:44:18.440 to run.

00:44:19.360 We have a

00:44:19.920 billion users.

00:44:21.060 It's

00:44:21.180 important.

00:44:23.100 And I'm

00:44:24.120 doing it

00:44:24.440 remotely now,

00:44:25.260 but it's

00:44:26.180 not as

00:44:26.480 efficient.

00:44:27.200 So if

00:44:28.020 you think

00:44:28.520 about it,

00:44:28.880 France is

00:44:29.480 less than

00:44:29.980 1% of

00:44:31.780 the Telegram

00:44:32.380 user base.

00:44:33.840 It's

00:44:34.260 something like

00:44:35.720 half of

00:44:36.540 1%.

00:44:37.220 And the

00:44:39.680 other 99.5%

00:44:41.160 are coming

00:44:41.920 from elsewhere,

00:44:42.700 right?

00:44:42.940 India,

00:44:43.340 Indonesia,

00:44:44.080 you name

00:44:44.340 it.

00:44:45.480 And it's

00:44:47.300 kind of

00:44:47.980 counterintuitive

00:44:49.220 negative for

00:44:49.900 me that

00:44:51.200 the entire

00:44:52.640 organization is

00:44:53.700 impacted because

00:44:55.200 we have this

00:44:55.960 ongoing investigation

00:44:56.880 here in France,

00:44:57.620 particularly given

00:44:58.480 the fact that

00:45:00.040 it's going

00:45:01.540 in a pace

00:45:03.100 that only

00:45:04.140 requires me to

00:45:05.080 be here once

00:45:06.160 like in

00:45:06.840 several months.

00:45:08.980 So I do

00:45:09.880 think that the

00:45:10.960 current restriction

00:45:11.980 is very

00:45:14.720 strange and

00:45:15.380 very unnecessary.

00:45:16.060 And I hope

00:45:17.020 it will be

00:45:17.620 lifted later

00:45:19.060 this year.

00:45:19.920 And if it's

00:45:20.640 not?

00:45:21.620 Your identity

00:45:22.460 is constantly

00:45:23.220 under attack.

00:45:23.980 In just the

00:45:24.360 last year,

00:45:24.860 Americans lost

00:45:25.500 over $16

00:45:26.220 billion to

00:45:27.560 scammers

00:45:27.940 online.

00:45:28.760 Anyone can

00:45:29.520 fall victim

00:45:30.220 to this.

00:45:31.260 Your social

00:45:31.620 security number,

00:45:32.300 your bank

00:45:32.600 account,

00:45:32.960 your credit

00:45:33.300 profile can

00:45:33.920 be exposed

00:45:34.380 and you

00:45:34.740 won't even

00:45:35.120 know it.

00:45:36.340 And the

00:45:36.660 second they

00:45:37.100 are exposed,

00:45:38.300 thieves can

00:45:38.780 take out

00:45:39.120 loans to

00:45:39.520 your name,

00:45:39.940 open credit

00:45:40.400 cards,

00:45:40.920 wreck your

00:45:41.440 life financially.

00:45:43.180 Identity

00:45:43.480 Guard can

00:45:43.960 save you.

00:45:44.500 Identity Guard

00:45:44.880 monitors

00:45:45.420 everything from

00:45:46.040 your credit

00:45:46.400 card to

00:45:47.200 your bank

00:45:47.520 accounts to

00:45:48.020 your social

00:45:48.280 security number

00:45:48.760 looking for

00:45:49.560 early signs of

00:45:50.280 fraud before

00:45:50.960 damage is done.

00:45:52.340 If something

00:45:52.740 weird happens,

00:45:53.880 you get an

00:45:54.340 instant alert.

00:45:55.380 If someone

00:45:55.620 does steal your

00:45:56.240 identity,

00:45:56.760 Identity Guard's

00:45:57.300 expert team

00:45:57.900 works directly

00:45:58.360 with banks,

00:45:59.480 credit card

00:45:59.800 companies,

00:46:00.240 and lenders

00:46:00.540 to shut it

00:46:01.100 down quickly.

00:46:02.180 End the

00:46:02.480 scam.

00:46:03.560 Having your

00:46:03.980 identity stolen

00:46:04.680 is a nightmare.

00:46:06.000 Someone in

00:46:06.300 this country

00:46:06.620 becomes a

00:46:07.060 victim of

00:46:07.400 identity theft

00:46:08.260 every six

00:46:09.760 seconds.

00:46:11.160 Identity Guard

00:46:11.840 protects you.

00:46:13.280 30-day free

00:46:14.040 trial at

00:46:14.520 exclusive discount

00:46:15.400 identityguard.com

00:46:17.360 slash tucker.

00:46:18.380 Protect yourself

00:46:19.120 before it's too

00:46:19.900 late.

00:46:20.140 Identityguard.com

00:46:21.260 slash tucker.

00:46:22.400 You're probably

00:46:22.900 pretty sick in

00:46:23.660 Nike.

00:46:24.080 It's hard to

00:46:24.400 blame you for

00:46:24.880 feeling that

00:46:25.360 way.

00:46:25.620 Any company

00:46:26.060 that worships

00:46:26.820 Colin Kaepernick,

00:46:28.640 any company that

00:46:29.300 shills for the

00:46:30.020 lunacy of the

00:46:31.320 left social agenda

00:46:32.280 is clearly not on

00:46:33.480 your side.

00:46:33.820 In fact,

00:46:34.220 they're your

00:46:34.660 enemy.

00:46:35.540 You need an

00:46:35.960 alternative.

00:46:37.440 XXXY Athletics

00:46:39.340 is the far

00:46:40.380 better choice.

00:46:41.340 It's the only

00:46:42.100 athletic brand

00:46:42.820 committed to

00:46:43.340 fighting for

00:46:44.080 free speech,

00:46:45.380 women's sports,

00:46:46.420 and the truth.

00:46:48.580 Honesty.

00:46:49.340 The truth.

00:46:50.400 They're not

00:46:50.700 going to lie

00:46:51.080 to you.

00:46:51.660 For example,

00:46:52.440 did you know

00:46:52.700 that 80% of

00:46:53.540 Americans oppose

00:46:54.700 letting men

00:46:55.480 play in women's

00:46:56.340 sports?

00:46:57.220 That's not a

00:46:57.740 radical view.

00:46:58.740 It's a moderate,

00:47:00.180 sensible view

00:47:01.000 rooted in

00:47:01.660 biology.

00:47:03.020 The woke

00:47:03.340 corporations like

00:47:04.160 Nike make you

00:47:04.780 feel like a

00:47:05.220 lunatic for

00:47:06.360 saying obvious

00:47:07.080 things like men

00:47:07.880 are men and

00:47:08.300 women are women.

00:47:08.840 That is

00:47:09.800 tyranny.

00:47:11.380 How can you

00:47:11.800 fight back?

00:47:12.400 By abandoning

00:47:13.480 the companies

00:47:13.960 promoting it

00:47:14.740 and by embracing

00:47:15.820 companies like

00:47:16.700 XXXY Athletics.

00:47:18.700 It's an

00:47:19.180 American company.

00:47:20.880 It's not

00:47:21.360 opposed to

00:47:22.380 the United

00:47:22.720 States or to

00:47:24.000 telling the

00:47:24.520 truth.

00:47:25.520 Head to

00:47:25.940 thetruthfits.com

00:47:27.440 to learn a lot

00:47:28.040 more and use

00:47:28.660 the code

00:47:29.140 Tucker25

00:47:30.120 for 25%.

00:47:31.660 You're probably

00:47:32.200 pretty sick

00:47:32.800 in Nike.

00:47:33.380 It's hard to

00:47:33.700 blame you for

00:47:34.180 feeling that way.

00:47:34.920 Any company

00:47:35.360 that worships

00:47:36.120 Colin Kaepernick,

00:47:37.940 any company

00:47:38.380 that shills

00:47:38.960 for the

00:47:39.320 lunacy of

00:47:40.500 the left

00:47:40.760 social agenda

00:47:41.580 is clearly

00:47:42.400 not on your

00:47:42.900 side.

00:47:43.180 In fact,

00:47:43.540 they're your

00:47:43.980 enemy.

00:47:44.860 You need an

00:47:45.260 alternative.

00:47:46.740 XXXY Athletics

00:47:48.660 is the far

00:47:49.680 better choice.

00:47:50.780 It's the only

00:47:51.400 athletic brand

00:47:52.120 committed to

00:47:52.640 fighting for

00:47:53.380 free speech,

00:47:54.700 women's sports,

00:47:56.160 and the

00:47:56.720 truth.

00:47:57.900 Honesty,

00:47:58.640 the truth.

00:47:59.700 They're not

00:48:00.020 going to lie

00:48:00.380 to you.

00:48:00.920 For example,

00:48:01.740 did you know

00:48:02.020 that 80% of

00:48:02.860 Americans oppose

00:48:03.960 letting men

00:48:04.780 play in women's

00:48:05.640 sports?

00:48:06.560 That's not a

00:48:07.040 radical view.

00:48:07.780 It's a

00:48:08.600 moderate,

00:48:09.480 sensible view

00:48:10.300 rooted in

00:48:10.960 biology.

00:48:12.320 But woke

00:48:12.660 corporations like

00:48:13.460 Nike make you

00:48:14.100 feel like a

00:48:14.520 lunatic for

00:48:15.660 saying obvious

00:48:16.380 things like men

00:48:17.180 are men and

00:48:17.600 women are

00:48:17.920 women.

00:48:18.420 That is

00:48:19.120 tyranny.

00:48:20.680 How can you

00:48:21.100 fight back?

00:48:21.720 By abandoning the

00:48:22.940 companies promoting

00:48:23.720 it and by

00:48:24.720 embracing companies

00:48:25.640 like XXXY

00:48:27.220 Athletics.

00:48:27.980 It's an American

00:48:28.980 company.

00:48:29.860 It's not opposed

00:48:31.360 to the United

00:48:32.040 States or to

00:48:33.300 telling the truth.

00:48:34.180 head to

00:48:35.240 the truth

00:48:35.760 fits.com to

00:48:36.880 learn a lot

00:48:37.340 more and

00:48:37.760 use the

00:48:38.140 code

00:48:38.440 tucker25

00:48:39.420 for 25%

00:48:41.000 off.

00:48:41.920 Did you

00:48:42.200 know you

00:48:42.620 can invest

00:48:43.160 in crypto

00:48:43.700 through your

00:48:44.140 retirement

00:48:44.500 account?

00:48:45.320 That's right.

00:48:46.000 I trust

00:48:46.280 capital allows

00:48:46.900 Americans to

00:48:47.600 invest in

00:48:48.120 over 60 of

00:48:48.840 the most

00:48:49.060 popular

00:48:49.480 cryptocurrencies

00:48:50.040 like Bitcoin

00:48:51.020 in a tax

00:48:51.720 advantaged IRA.

00:48:53.340 Take control

00:48:53.840 of your future.

00:48:54.940 Get started

00:48:55.460 at

00:48:55.700 itrustcapital.com

00:48:57.000 forward slash

00:48:57.600 Tucker and

00:48:58.300 use the promo

00:48:58.880 code Tucker to

00:48:59.900 get a $100

00:49:00.500 funding bonus.

00:49:01.440 That's itrustcapital.com

00:49:03.200 forward slash

00:49:03.980 Tucker.

00:49:04.700 Paid ad for

00:49:05.120 informational purposes

00:49:05.920 only.

00:49:06.460 Taxes may apply.

00:49:07.260 Crypto is speculative

00:49:08.020 and carries risk

00:49:08.640 of loss.

00:49:09.180 Itrustcapital does

00:49:09.820 not provide legal

00:49:10.520 investment or tax

00:49:11.260 advice.

00:49:11.700 Well, let's see

00:49:13.040 because first of

00:49:14.080 all, this

00:49:14.900 investigation can't

00:49:15.820 last forever.

00:49:16.780 It can probably

00:49:17.620 last for another

00:49:18.620 several months

00:49:19.320 or a year and

00:49:20.020 then it will

00:49:20.520 have to either

00:49:21.540 go on trial

00:49:23.420 or be

00:49:26.540 concluded.

00:49:26.920 Who could be

00:49:27.300 criminally charged

00:49:28.100 for this?

00:49:29.420 Everything is

00:49:29.920 possible.

00:49:30.340 Like, you

00:49:31.300 can't rule

00:49:32.460 out.

00:49:32.560 Yes, if

00:49:32.880 they'd arrest

00:49:33.300 you at the

00:49:33.520 airport, they'd

00:49:33.940 do anything,

00:49:34.460 right?

00:49:35.800 That's what

00:49:36.680 bothered me

00:49:38.500 when I was in

00:49:39.500 police custody

00:49:40.100 for these four

00:49:40.740 days.

00:49:41.320 Like, first

00:49:41.960 thing, something

00:49:42.820 like this should

00:49:43.540 have never

00:49:44.020 happened because

00:49:44.900 I assumed

00:49:46.600 there were

00:49:47.100 certain thorough

00:49:48.740 procedures to

00:49:50.340 verify a lot

00:49:51.740 of alleged

00:49:53.740 facts before

00:49:55.020 taking a

00:49:56.000 decision such

00:49:56.580 as this.

00:49:57.400 Like, you

00:49:57.760 can't start

00:49:58.320 something like

00:49:58.840 this based on

00:49:59.560 a media

00:50:00.300 article that

00:50:01.060 Telegram

00:50:01.500 allegedly is

00:50:03.480 non-cooperative

00:50:04.400 or that

00:50:05.660 Telegram

00:50:06.260 supposedly has

00:50:07.980 worse content

00:50:09.860 moderation

00:50:10.380 than other

00:50:11.640 platforms.

00:50:12.600 Both these

00:50:13.560 facts turned

00:50:14.140 out to be

00:50:14.640 completely

00:50:15.080 false.

00:50:16.420 You have

00:50:17.540 to be

00:50:18.320 really thorough

00:50:19.040 and examine

00:50:20.420 things before

00:50:21.060 making this

00:50:21.700 decision because

00:50:22.240 these decisions

00:50:23.400 such as this

00:50:24.240 are not only

00:50:25.360 harmful for

00:50:26.780 for my

00:50:27.200 relatives or

00:50:28.320 for my

00:50:28.680 company or

00:50:29.220 for me

00:50:30.040 personally.

00:50:31.200 Decisions such

00:50:32.060 as this, I

00:50:32.700 think, impact

00:50:33.460 France as a

00:50:34.620 whole.

00:50:35.620 And I'm a

00:50:36.320 French, I'm a

00:50:37.060 French citizen, so

00:50:37.800 I worry about

00:50:38.440 that as well.

00:50:39.160 I really think

00:50:40.740 that out of

00:50:42.020 all social media

00:50:43.080 platforms,

00:50:43.960 Telegram was

00:50:44.400 probably the

00:50:45.040 most friendly

00:50:46.440 potential partner

00:50:50.440 for France.

00:50:51.460 and every

00:50:52.280 time anyone

00:50:53.960 from the

00:50:55.020 French,

00:50:55.460 government

00:50:55.660 from the

00:50:55.940 French

00:50:56.120 authorities

00:50:56.500 reached out

00:50:57.060 to me, I

00:50:57.980 did my best

00:50:58.520 to help, I

00:50:59.060 helped.

00:51:01.000 So this

00:51:02.340 for me looked

00:51:03.660 almost like

00:51:04.280 friendly fire,

00:51:05.840 like they're

00:51:06.360 trying to

00:51:08.500 attack their

00:51:09.120 own ally in

00:51:10.620 a way.

00:51:11.480 And I was

00:51:13.060 so surprised

00:51:14.060 that this

00:51:14.820 would happen

00:51:15.440 because the

00:51:17.780 collateral damage,

00:51:19.160 not just for me

00:51:19.900 and my

00:51:20.280 company, but

00:51:21.140 for the

00:51:21.860 image of

00:51:22.280 France is

00:51:23.300 quite

00:51:23.560 significant.

00:51:24.220 And I

00:51:24.500 talked to

00:51:26.100 many of my

00:51:26.680 friends, the

00:51:27.260 CEO of big

00:51:27.880 tech companies,

00:51:29.040 and they

00:51:29.860 were very

00:51:30.400 concerned and

00:51:31.200 asked me,

00:51:32.060 can I still

00:51:32.700 come to

00:51:33.120 France?

00:51:33.820 Is it still

00:51:35.300 safe to be

00:51:36.400 in France?

00:51:37.600 People were

00:51:38.260 worried.

00:51:38.780 And the

00:51:39.180 CEOs of

00:51:39.680 smaller

00:51:40.060 companies,

00:51:41.380 they don't

00:51:42.060 have a

00:51:42.380 billion users.

00:51:43.400 I even

00:51:43.740 were worried.

00:51:44.340 They say,

00:51:45.100 look, they

00:51:45.760 did this to

00:51:46.460 you and

00:51:46.920 you're very

00:51:47.800 well-known

00:51:48.360 and the

00:51:48.800 company of

00:51:49.280 your profile

00:51:49.820 is,

00:51:50.280 should be

00:51:52.480 treated in

00:51:53.720 certain different

00:51:55.300 way.

00:51:56.420 And I'm

00:51:57.180 running a

00:51:57.620 small startup,

00:51:58.420 a friend of

00:51:59.160 mine would

00:51:59.520 say, I'm

00:52:00.680 scared to

00:52:01.540 come.

00:52:02.480 And this

00:52:03.360 trend continues.

00:52:04.720 So I

00:52:04.960 heard...

00:52:06.180 But the sad

00:52:06.800 thing is nobody

00:52:07.500 is afraid to

00:52:08.060 go to

00:52:08.260 Uzbekistan,

00:52:09.200 actually.

00:52:10.780 I'm not

00:52:11.080 endorsing

00:52:11.560 Uzbekistan,

00:52:12.060 I've never

00:52:12.360 been there,

00:52:12.820 but I've

00:52:13.640 never met

00:52:14.140 anyone who

00:52:14.500 was like,

00:52:14.680 I'm too

00:52:14.920 afraid to

00:52:15.320 go to

00:52:15.520 Uzbekistan.

00:52:16.740 I was

00:52:17.320 there last

00:52:17.840 summer,

00:52:18.140 it was

00:52:18.340 great.

00:52:18.660 I didn't

00:52:19.860 even know

00:52:20.240 that.

00:52:20.760 But that's

00:52:21.020 the point.

00:52:22.140 I mean,

00:52:22.700 right?

00:52:23.600 These

00:52:23.940 countries that

00:52:24.560 you grew

00:52:24.880 up thinking

00:52:25.340 are primitive

00:52:26.620 or don't

00:52:27.120 have functioning

00:52:27.600 legal systems

00:52:28.540 or, you

00:52:29.600 know, whose

00:52:29.860 laws are

00:52:30.260 really as a

00:52:30.600 function of

00:52:30.980 the whim of

00:52:31.440 the monarch

00:52:31.940 or whatever,

00:52:32.860 they turn

00:52:33.740 out to be

00:52:34.740 kind of fine

00:52:35.880 with what

00:52:37.320 you do or

00:52:37.820 what I do or

00:52:38.520 what any

00:52:38.920 normal person

00:52:39.600 who believes

00:52:40.160 in human

00:52:40.480 rights does,

00:52:41.020 but it's

00:52:41.380 like France

00:52:42.200 or Great

00:52:42.720 Britain.

00:52:43.660 Like, didn't

00:52:43.980 you get

00:52:44.240 citizenship here

00:52:44.980 thinking this

00:52:46.340 was a safe

00:52:46.960 haven as

00:52:47.400 someone who

00:52:47.820 was in

00:52:48.340 some sense

00:52:48.880 kind of a

00:52:49.220 refugee from

00:52:49.780 his own

00:52:50.060 country, a

00:52:51.420 refugee of

00:52:52.060 principle, like

00:52:52.600 I don't want

00:52:53.000 to share this

00:52:53.360 with the

00:52:53.520 government, I'm

00:52:53.940 leaving.

00:52:55.320 Didn't you

00:52:55.980 choose this

00:52:56.800 country for

00:52:57.200 citizenship because

00:52:57.860 you thought that

00:52:58.760 it was a place

00:52:59.340 that was committed

00:52:59.800 to human

00:53:00.680 rights?

00:53:01.980 Well, the

00:53:02.600 slogan of

00:53:03.180 France is

00:53:04.100 liberty,

00:53:05.940 fraternity,

00:53:06.880 equality,

00:53:07.480 right?

00:53:07.680 So,

00:53:07.900 equality.

00:53:08.860 So, it's

00:53:09.820 something that I

00:53:11.220 strongly believe

00:53:12.080 in.

00:53:12.360 And it's

00:53:13.780 certainly

00:53:14.080 something that

00:53:15.400 France stands

00:53:18.360 for in my

00:53:19.640 opinion.

00:53:21.400 And for pretty

00:53:22.220 much everybody

00:53:22.700 who was born

00:53:23.320 in the Soviet

00:53:23.780 Union, like

00:53:25.140 I was,

00:53:26.900 Western Europe

00:53:27.800 is considered

00:53:30.040 to be this

00:53:30.580 place where

00:53:31.240 freedoms and

00:53:32.140 human rights

00:53:32.700 are respected.

00:53:35.040 And that's

00:53:37.700 why it was

00:53:38.780 such a

00:53:39.960 shock for

00:53:41.680 me back

00:53:42.720 there in

00:53:43.020 the police

00:53:43.360 custody.

00:53:44.700 Interestingly,

00:53:45.800 the interpreter

00:53:46.580 that we had

00:53:47.520 during these

00:53:49.080 four days in

00:53:49.980 police custody

00:53:50.600 also emigrated

00:53:52.100 from the

00:53:52.520 Soviet Union.

00:53:53.480 She was

00:53:53.760 translating

00:53:54.220 English to

00:53:55.520 French and

00:53:55.920 back.

00:53:57.120 And after

00:53:57.880 being present

00:53:58.640 there for

00:53:59.040 two days,

00:54:00.960 she said

00:54:03.540 during a

00:54:04.000 break with

00:54:04.820 all the

00:54:05.240 policemen and

00:54:06.600 clerks and

00:54:08.840 everybody present

00:54:09.560 there, she

00:54:11.380 said, I

00:54:12.160 left the

00:54:12.700 Soviet Union

00:54:13.560 hoping I

00:54:16.540 would be in

00:54:18.080 a country with

00:54:19.280 freedoms and

00:54:21.500 it seems now

00:54:22.880 that the

00:54:23.400 Soviet Union

00:54:24.180 has caught up

00:54:25.780 with me.

00:54:27.660 And I've,

00:54:29.280 so I was very

00:54:30.420 surprised to hear

00:54:31.380 her say that

00:54:32.580 because for me,

00:54:34.040 France is not

00:54:34.580 there yet.

00:54:35.040 France is still

00:54:36.040 the country

00:54:36.520 that respects

00:54:37.660 human rights

00:54:38.240 and freedoms.

00:54:39.440 However, I

00:54:40.280 understood, I

00:54:40.880 later understood

00:54:41.580 why she was

00:54:42.440 so sensitive to

00:54:43.340 this.

00:54:43.860 Because she

00:54:44.660 actually experienced

00:54:46.060 what life is

00:54:47.620 like in an

00:54:49.160 environment where

00:54:50.900 you don't have

00:54:51.700 freedom of

00:54:52.640 speech and

00:54:53.740 you don't have

00:54:54.460 a free market

00:54:55.500 economy.

00:54:56.720 And that's

00:54:57.180 why every

00:54:58.440 perceived

00:54:59.660 change for

00:55:01.660 in this

00:55:03.620 direction where

00:55:04.440 freedoms are

00:55:05.120 less respected

00:55:05.880 is taking

00:55:08.340 very, it's

00:55:09.560 making them

00:55:10.000 very, very

00:55:10.360 concerned, people

00:55:11.200 from the

00:55:11.540 Soviet Union.

00:55:12.340 And I

00:55:12.840 myself, I

00:55:13.360 remember my

00:55:14.000 life, I was

00:55:14.440 a small kid in

00:55:15.360 the Soviet Union,

00:55:16.100 but I

00:55:16.360 remember having

00:55:18.440 all these three

00:55:19.060 TV channels and

00:55:20.460 all these three

00:55:21.240 TV channels show

00:55:22.160 the same TV

00:55:23.660 program with

00:55:25.420 the, about

00:55:26.440 the Communist

00:55:26.880 Party.

00:55:27.680 And I

00:55:28.360 remember having

00:55:29.240 two kinds of

00:55:30.220 ice cream in

00:55:31.280 the shops across

00:55:33.040 the city and

00:55:33.640 across the

00:55:34.040 country and

00:55:34.840 no more.

00:55:35.740 And then when

00:55:36.180 I was brought

00:55:37.320 to Italy as a

00:55:38.240 five-year-old

00:55:38.860 kid and I

00:55:40.020 could see,

00:55:40.680 okay, actually

00:55:41.280 I could have

00:55:42.060 100 TV

00:55:43.080 channels and

00:55:44.260 some of them

00:55:44.840 even show

00:55:45.560 Disney cartoons

00:55:47.220 and Japanese

00:55:48.240 anime.

00:55:49.440 That's great.

00:55:50.620 I can go to

00:55:51.380 a shop

00:55:51.900 downstairs and

00:55:52.980 they have 200

00:55:54.060 different kinds

00:55:55.660 of ice cream.

00:55:56.960 That's much

00:55:57.760 better than I

00:55:58.440 experienced in

00:55:59.080 the Soviet Union.

00:55:59.840 And I thought

00:56:00.260 maybe these

00:56:01.280 things,

00:56:01.720 afterwards I

00:56:03.380 realized that

00:56:04.000 these systems

00:56:05.240 called free

00:56:06.100 market economy

00:56:06.940 and respect to

00:56:08.180 freedom of speech

00:56:09.120 and basic human

00:56:09.700 rights, they're

00:56:10.760 actually very good

00:56:11.480 concepts because

00:56:12.220 they make your

00:56:12.840 life abundant.

00:56:13.460 But the

00:56:14.100 problem is I

00:56:15.340 remember this

00:56:16.980 life in the

00:56:19.280 absence of

00:56:19.860 these things.

00:56:21.280 Other people

00:56:21.820 from the

00:56:22.200 Soviet Union,

00:56:22.900 probably from

00:56:23.340 Cuba, from

00:56:24.340 other countries

00:56:25.600 like that,

00:56:26.500 experienced that.

00:56:27.340 But people

00:56:28.360 who were born

00:56:29.040 and grew up

00:56:29.520 here, for

00:56:30.220 example, in

00:56:30.600 France, have

00:56:31.640 not necessarily

00:56:32.340 had this

00:56:32.800 experience.

00:56:33.700 They take

00:56:34.400 freedoms for

00:56:34.980 granted.

00:56:35.500 They think

00:56:35.820 things are

00:56:36.980 going to be

00:56:37.780 fine because

00:56:38.260 we're a free

00:56:38.760 country and

00:56:39.280 what can

00:56:39.680 possibly go

00:56:40.380 wrong?

00:56:41.740 Unfortunately,

00:56:42.520 the history

00:56:42.980 knows many

00:56:43.520 examples when

00:56:44.580 free societies

00:56:45.920 gradually

00:56:47.120 degraded into

00:56:49.440 societies without

00:56:50.660 freedoms.

00:56:51.880 And one

00:56:53.200 good example

00:56:53.740 was last

00:56:54.360 month with

00:56:54.900 this anti-

00:56:55.960 encryption law

00:56:56.800 I told you

00:56:57.840 before about

00:56:58.600 because people

00:57:00.020 were completely

00:57:00.820 ignorant here

00:57:01.560 in France.

00:57:02.020 The public

00:57:02.480 was completely

00:57:03.760 ignorant.

00:57:04.420 So no

00:57:04.700 encryption means

00:57:05.340 no privacy.

00:57:06.900 Yes.

00:57:07.340 Correct.

00:57:07.700 It means

00:57:07.980 everybody's

00:57:08.500 vulnerable.

00:57:09.700 Like everybody's

00:57:10.560 messages can

00:57:11.520 leak.

00:57:13.400 It's mind

00:57:14.620 boggling.

00:57:15.800 And of

00:57:16.220 course, every

00:57:17.120 time something

00:57:17.860 like this is

00:57:18.380 proposed, very

00:57:20.520 logically sounding

00:57:22.560 justifications are

00:57:24.280 used.

00:57:24.940 To protect

00:57:25.820 the children.

00:57:26.300 To protect

00:57:26.740 the children,

00:57:27.480 to fight

00:57:27.800 crime,

00:57:28.700 to...

00:57:29.980 Neither of

00:57:30.400 which they

00:57:30.700 bother doing,

00:57:31.520 by the way.

00:57:32.520 They don't care

00:57:32.960 about children and

00:57:33.920 they don't stop

00:57:34.480 crime.

00:57:35.520 Or in the

00:57:36.060 Soviet Union,

00:57:36.640 they would say,

00:57:37.340 like in Maoist

00:57:38.140 China, in other

00:57:38.980 places, they would

00:57:39.580 say, oh, our

00:57:40.280 geopolitical rival is

00:57:41.760 trying to stir chaos

00:57:43.320 in our country, so we

00:57:44.340 have to limit this.

00:57:46.480 It's Qatar doing it.

00:57:48.180 It's Russia.

00:57:49.400 It's Qatar.

00:57:50.420 So, yeah, I

00:57:51.400 don't know.

00:57:51.720 But it's always

00:57:54.800 some Trotskyite

00:57:56.080 wreckers, it's

00:57:56.980 some unseen

00:57:57.640 force from a

00:57:58.380 foreign land

00:57:58.940 trying to wreck

00:58:00.120 our projects, so

00:58:00.880 we need to

00:58:01.260 oppress you to

00:58:01.820 keep you safe.

00:58:03.540 Yes.

00:58:04.240 But it's not

00:58:05.580 easy because now

00:58:06.740 in the European

00:58:07.320 Union, you have

00:58:08.320 all these laws

00:58:09.800 that basically

00:58:11.100 say you have

00:58:12.660 to remove

00:58:13.240 anything.

00:58:14.220 It's actually

00:58:14.900 part of the

00:58:15.360 Digital Services

00:58:15.980 Act.

00:58:16.260 you have to

00:58:17.440 remove anything

00:58:18.880 one of the

00:58:20.360 European countries

00:58:22.040 demands you

00:58:23.580 remove for the

00:58:24.280 entirety of the

00:58:26.020 European Union.

00:58:27.180 So, if you

00:58:27.660 have, for

00:58:28.000 example, Romania

00:58:29.240 or Estonia

00:58:30.740 or any other

00:58:32.160 of these

00:58:32.720 very highly

00:58:34.820 respected

00:58:35.180 countries

00:58:35.640 demanding that

00:58:37.140 you remove

00:58:37.820 most of

00:58:38.980 Telegram channels

00:58:40.140 for whatever

00:58:41.000 reason, you

00:58:42.420 have to remove

00:58:43.200 them, then you

00:58:44.500 can appeal,

00:58:45.460 well, it

00:58:46.420 will take you

00:58:46.940 probably several

00:58:47.520 years, but

00:58:48.980 you have to

00:58:49.720 remove them

00:58:50.240 within like

00:58:50.960 a very short

00:58:52.320 time frame.

00:58:53.680 Otherwise, you'll

00:58:54.600 be facing

00:58:55.880 fines, bans,

00:58:58.340 and so on.

00:58:58.780 How is it not

00:58:59.220 the Warsaw Pact?

00:59:00.320 I mean, how is

00:59:00.780 it not Soviet?

00:59:01.760 If you criticize

00:59:02.520 the people in

00:59:03.080 charge, we shut

00:59:03.620 you down.

00:59:04.440 That's what

00:59:04.700 they're saying.

00:59:06.400 Interesting you

00:59:06.980 would say that.

00:59:08.500 It was in

00:59:09.160 2009, 2008

00:59:11.020 actually, I

00:59:12.940 made my first

00:59:14.200 trip to

00:59:15.420 Latvia on

00:59:17.480 a train from

00:59:18.100 St. Petersburg

00:59:18.780 and something

00:59:21.240 was wrong with

00:59:21.800 my visa, so I

00:59:22.480 had to get

00:59:23.780 off in the

00:59:25.300 border town in

00:59:25.920 Latvia, but I

00:59:26.640 had this long

00:59:27.300 discussion with

00:59:28.080 a border police

00:59:29.340 officer, well, I

00:59:30.660 seem to like

00:59:31.520 border policemen,

00:59:32.820 so border police

00:59:34.340 officer in Latvia,

00:59:35.440 and I started to

00:59:36.460 discuss his life

00:59:37.700 in Latvia after

00:59:39.260 Latvia was

00:59:39.720 accepted in the

00:59:40.640 EU, and he

00:59:41.800 told me this

00:59:42.320 interesting thing,

00:59:44.260 he said, you

00:59:45.600 know, we

00:59:45.940 hated being in

00:59:46.860 the Soviet

00:59:47.260 Union, but

00:59:49.040 now that we

00:59:50.480 are in the

00:59:51.000 EU, we

00:59:51.660 realize we

00:59:53.260 are in a

00:59:54.680 very similar

00:59:56.000 organization.

00:59:56.880 Of course.

00:59:57.560 We're in the

00:59:58.040 Soviet Union

00:59:58.700 again.

00:59:59.380 Unelected

00:59:59.900 foreigners are

01:00:00.540 still making

01:00:01.000 the key

01:00:01.340 decisions, and

01:00:02.460 you don't get

01:00:02.840 to talk.

01:00:04.000 So it's very

01:00:04.580 funny you would

01:00:05.220 compare this

01:00:06.000 to systems.

01:00:07.000 Of course,

01:00:07.460 they're very

01:00:07.800 different, but

01:00:08.960 fundamentally, if

01:00:10.640 you're not

01:00:11.120 allowed to

01:00:11.760 criticize the

01:00:12.380 people in

01:00:12.820 charge, you

01:00:13.860 live in a

01:00:14.340 tyranny.

01:00:15.960 I mean, what's

01:00:16.680 the other

01:00:16.940 definition of

01:00:17.600 it?

01:00:18.420 I have to be

01:00:19.300 able to say to

01:00:20.180 the person making

01:00:20.820 the decisions,

01:00:21.600 I don't like that

01:00:22.580 decision, and

01:00:23.100 here's why, and I

01:00:23.540 have to be able to

01:00:23.960 say it in public.

01:00:25.840 I've always felt

01:00:26.640 the problem that

01:00:27.340 you have as the

01:00:29.120 person who owns

01:00:29.820 and runs Telegram

01:00:30.440 is that you make

01:00:31.780 it easy for people

01:00:32.540 to come together

01:00:33.260 online.

01:00:34.240 You have the

01:00:34.560 channels.

01:00:36.060 And that is, I

01:00:36.940 don't know if you

01:00:37.400 thought this through,

01:00:38.000 and you're an

01:00:38.860 engineer when you

01:00:39.500 built it, but that

01:00:41.700 is potentially a

01:00:42.580 massive threat to

01:00:43.360 governments, because

01:00:44.800 it's not simply

01:00:45.520 communicating one-on-one.

01:00:48.060 People can create

01:00:48.940 their own channels,

01:00:50.500 just like a TV

01:00:50.960 channel, and reach

01:00:51.740 a lot of like-minded

01:00:52.960 people, and they

01:00:53.640 could potentially

01:00:54.400 organize.

01:00:56.520 That's true, but

01:00:57.640 one thing that makes

01:00:58.440 Telegram different, we

01:00:59.220 don't promote these

01:01:00.020 channels, so

01:01:00.620 everything that you

01:01:02.340 have on Telegram is

01:01:04.020 something that you

01:01:04.780 have to deliberately

01:01:05.860 search for and

01:01:06.940 subscribe for.

01:01:07.640 So, unlike some

01:01:09.180 other apps that

01:01:10.120 constantly recommend

01:01:12.180 you content and

01:01:13.380 content sources, we

01:01:14.680 don't do that.

01:01:16.180 You open Telegram,

01:01:17.580 it's just an empty

01:01:18.580 list of chats if you

01:01:19.620 don't have any

01:01:20.640 friend there, and if

01:01:21.880 you're not subscribed

01:01:23.080 to any channel, you

01:01:23.760 have to deliberately

01:01:24.980 find one.

01:01:26.020 So, I think we're a

01:01:27.460 completely neutral

01:01:28.360 platform.

01:01:29.040 We allow everybody

01:01:30.020 to express their

01:01:31.060 voice within the

01:01:32.640 rules of the

01:01:35.400 common sense, and

01:01:37.600 then everybody can

01:01:39.060 decide which

01:01:41.180 point of view

01:01:42.500 makes more sense

01:01:43.540 to them, and

01:01:45.140 see if, for

01:01:48.040 example, the

01:01:49.480 government is

01:01:49.960 right or their

01:01:50.500 position is right.

01:01:51.940 Right, well, that's

01:01:52.620 called freedom.

01:01:53.200 That's called

01:01:53.660 freedom.

01:01:54.320 Unfortunately, it's

01:01:56.260 something that

01:01:57.220 surprisingly

01:01:57.880 faces a lot of

01:02:01.180 backlash.

01:02:01.880 May I ask you a

01:02:02.460 question about

01:02:02.960 encryption?

01:02:03.740 So, the advances

01:02:06.420 in computing

01:02:07.520 power, well, they're

01:02:09.100 calling it quantum

01:02:09.640 computing, right, so

01:02:11.460 they're just so

01:02:12.740 exponential that it's

01:02:13.820 hard even to

01:02:14.820 understand for the

01:02:15.520 non-engineer brain

01:02:16.300 like mine, but

01:02:16.860 they're profound.

01:02:18.660 The speed at which

01:02:19.560 processes are now

01:02:20.380 occurring, does that

01:02:22.040 eliminate, what is

01:02:23.280 the technological

01:02:24.600 state of play?

01:02:25.220 Does that eliminate

01:02:25.880 encryption?

01:02:27.880 Encryption will

01:02:28.420 have to change,

01:02:29.100 correct?

01:02:29.760 The encryption has

01:02:30.780 to change, and

01:02:32.040 there has been

01:02:33.520 made progress in

01:02:34.700 encryption, which is

01:02:37.320 like quantum

01:02:37.960 secure, so it's a

01:02:40.200 constant evolution.

01:02:43.020 So, the tools to

01:02:44.940 decrypt become

01:02:46.660 stronger, and then

01:02:47.540 the tools to

01:02:48.120 encrypt become

01:02:49.160 stronger.

01:02:50.060 That makes sense.

01:02:50.800 Are you confident

01:02:51.680 that encryption, that

01:02:54.320 secure encryption will

01:02:55.500 still exist?

01:02:56.660 As a

01:02:57.340 technological matter

01:02:58.280 with the rise of

01:03:00.160 the super-fast

01:03:00.800 quantum computing?

01:03:03.480 It's very hard to

01:03:04.700 be confident in

01:03:05.400 anything, because

01:03:06.260 first of all, we

01:03:07.920 have to rely on the

01:03:09.380 computing power of

01:03:10.220 our devices to

01:03:12.000 decrypt things.

01:03:13.140 Of course, there are

01:03:14.080 very sophisticated

01:03:15.300 algorithms in place

01:03:16.900 that make it so

01:03:20.640 that you don't have

01:03:21.540 to have the same

01:03:22.580 level of computing

01:03:23.900 power on your

01:03:24.560 device as in a

01:03:27.000 data center.

01:03:27.900 I was about to

01:03:28.200 say, you'd have to

01:03:29.020 bring a data center

01:03:29.800 with you.

01:03:30.360 Yeah, exactly.

01:03:31.120 So, it's not

01:03:32.320 exactly like that.

01:03:32.900 Build a nuclear

01:03:33.380 power plant, buy

01:03:34.840 100 acres.

01:03:35.680 You don't have to.

01:03:36.340 Okay, good.

01:03:37.020 But, you know, it

01:03:39.740 continues.

01:03:40.800 So, particularly

01:03:42.620 state actors have

01:03:43.780 almost infinite

01:03:44.820 computing power at

01:03:46.200 their disposal, and

01:03:47.020 they have certain

01:03:47.660 technologies at their

01:03:48.640 disposal that they

01:03:49.760 may not be telling

01:03:52.240 everybody about.

01:03:53.980 They might not be

01:03:54.620 telling people about

01:03:55.300 it?

01:03:55.440 So, it's very

01:03:58.460 possible that what

01:03:59.860 you're saying will

01:04:00.720 become reality, or

01:04:01.760 is already reality.

01:04:03.180 Who knows?

01:04:04.660 So, that kind of

01:04:06.500 is one of the

01:04:07.140 questions.

01:04:07.300 And I don't, you

01:04:07.940 know, I know you

01:04:08.600 have, well, you're

01:04:10.100 legally bound here in

01:04:11.880 France, so you're

01:04:12.600 under some kind of

01:04:13.540 state control.

01:04:15.560 So, and I know your

01:04:16.200 life is complicated

01:04:16.800 because of it, so I

01:04:17.440 don't want to push

01:04:18.420 you to say things

01:04:18.980 that will get you

01:04:19.420 in trouble, but it

01:04:21.840 does feel like a

01:04:23.140 determined government

01:04:23.980 can spy on anybody

01:04:24.860 who wants to

01:04:25.420 too.

01:04:25.860 That's the way it

01:04:26.360 feels to me.

01:04:26.960 Do you think that's

01:04:27.400 true?

01:04:28.240 Well, I think the

01:04:28.780 biggest risk for

01:04:29.960 personal privacy is

01:04:31.700 the ability of any

01:04:35.480 state actor to

01:04:36.560 penetrate the device

01:04:38.340 of the person, the

01:04:39.340 mobile device, for

01:04:40.180 example, because

01:04:41.020 there are so-called

01:04:42.600 zero-day vulnerabilities

01:04:43.680 on iOS or Android

01:04:47.000 phones, for example,

01:04:48.860 that the governments

01:04:49.780 sometimes know about

01:04:51.280 and the secret

01:04:51.960 agencies know about

01:04:53.000 and they can exploit

01:04:53.840 them.

01:04:54.180 but everybody else

01:04:56.060 doesn't know and

01:04:57.180 they can't defend

01:04:58.220 themselves from

01:04:59.920 them.

01:05:00.660 So, if you became

01:05:02.380 a target of a

01:05:03.480 government, it's

01:05:05.240 really likely that

01:05:07.020 they would install

01:05:08.540 this Trojan, so-called

01:05:10.560 Trojan called Pegasus

01:05:12.160 on your device.

01:05:13.400 And I was one of

01:05:14.240 those people eight

01:05:15.600 years ago that had

01:05:17.980 Pegasus installed on

01:05:19.900 their phones, according

01:05:20.560 to the leaked reports.

01:05:22.600 Been there.

01:05:23.860 Is there any way, and

01:05:25.320 I think a lot of

01:05:25.800 people are there

01:05:26.360 without knowing it, and

01:05:27.700 I know that, is there

01:05:29.740 any way to know if

01:05:31.000 your phone has been

01:05:34.660 compromised, if what

01:05:36.360 you're looking at and

01:05:37.580 typing is being read by

01:05:38.700 somebody else?

01:05:39.220 Is there any way to

01:05:39.640 know for certain?

01:05:41.240 For certain, probably

01:05:42.720 no, but there are

01:05:44.520 ways to check that

01:05:46.300 and see if

01:05:48.180 known vulnerabilities

01:05:50.320 have been

01:05:52.460 exploited on your

01:05:55.020 phone.

01:05:56.020 And I know there are

01:05:56.960 some organizations that

01:05:57.960 can help you with

01:05:58.860 that.

01:05:59.480 Where's your phone?

01:06:00.300 You didn't leave it

01:06:01.300 out.

01:06:01.780 I don't use a phone.

01:06:02.580 I haven't used the

01:06:03.880 phone for a year

01:06:05.600 almost.

01:06:07.480 Oh, France took it.

01:06:09.020 Oh, France took it,

01:06:10.060 but even before it

01:06:10.840 took it, I wasn't

01:06:12.160 using my phone.

01:06:13.480 I didn't have a SIM

01:06:14.180 card in the phone.

01:06:15.260 I just use it to test

01:06:16.260 Telegram, the app,

01:06:17.380 because we have

01:06:17.940 constant product

01:06:18.560 updates.

01:06:19.000 I have to test it

01:06:19.820 at least twice a week,

01:06:21.720 but I'm not a user

01:06:23.660 of a phone.

01:06:24.840 So, I just want to

01:06:25.540 say, again, you're an

01:06:26.040 engineer, too.

01:06:27.020 I mean, you're not

01:06:27.340 like a marketing guy.

01:06:28.340 You're like a build

01:06:29.680 the app guy, so you

01:06:30.980 understand the

01:06:31.380 technology.

01:06:32.200 Yes.

01:06:32.580 Because you built it.

01:06:33.600 Yes.

01:06:34.060 So, you're coming

01:06:34.520 from a highly

01:06:35.560 informed perspective

01:06:37.020 when you make

01:06:38.240 technology choices.

01:06:39.360 Is that fair?

01:06:40.720 You could say so.

01:06:41.420 Yeah.

01:06:42.340 One of the most

01:06:42.940 informed probably in

01:06:43.600 the world, and you

01:06:44.200 don't have a phone.

01:06:45.640 What is that?

01:06:46.520 Like, why don't you

01:06:47.080 have a phone?

01:06:47.580 Well, I don't use

01:06:48.340 phone regularly, right?

01:06:49.500 I probably own a

01:06:50.500 phone, but I don't

01:06:51.900 use phone.

01:06:52.380 I don't carry a phone

01:06:53.760 with me because I

01:06:55.620 find it extremely

01:06:56.740 distracting.

01:06:57.780 I find it also

01:06:59.100 potentially

01:07:01.340 harming my privacy.

01:07:06.220 And I also

01:07:08.400 just, I don't think

01:07:10.040 it's a necessary

01:07:10.820 device for me to

01:07:11.880 have.

01:07:12.280 When I want to

01:07:13.500 focus on something,

01:07:14.460 I would rather use

01:07:15.400 my laptop or my

01:07:16.380 iPad and put

01:07:19.220 together some

01:07:19.820 notes or some

01:07:22.000 interact with my

01:07:23.860 team, right?

01:07:24.360 So I wouldn't

01:07:25.140 want to just

01:07:26.500 open my phone and

01:07:27.880 disappear there

01:07:28.680 consuming short

01:07:30.820 form content.

01:07:32.300 And that's why I

01:07:33.120 don't use a phone.

01:07:34.680 I'm trying to

01:07:36.780 extract this from

01:07:37.660 you for one

01:07:38.280 simple reason,

01:07:38.980 which is I think

01:07:39.640 that when you

01:07:40.760 come across

01:07:41.220 someone who

01:07:41.740 knows an immense

01:07:42.560 amount about

01:07:43.080 technology, really

01:07:44.080 understands the

01:07:44.640 technology, it's

01:07:45.900 interesting to know

01:07:46.460 his perspective on

01:07:47.660 technology.

01:07:48.780 Like, with

01:07:49.220 everything you know,

01:07:50.580 you don't use a

01:07:51.180 phone.

01:07:51.960 So I just think,

01:07:52.780 you know, people can

01:07:53.300 draw their own

01:07:53.640 conclusions from

01:07:54.540 that.

01:07:58.260 So, what do

01:08:00.140 you, you saw

01:08:00.560 Ross Albrecht,

01:08:01.860 Albrecht got.

01:08:03.360 The guy who was

01:08:04.560 pardoned, yes.

01:08:05.680 Yeah, Silk

01:08:06.720 Road.

01:08:08.680 So he ran Silk

01:08:09.720 Road, and I'm

01:08:10.720 hardly an expert on

01:08:11.700 this.

01:08:11.940 I was very pleased

01:08:13.060 when he got

01:08:13.460 pardoned.

01:08:15.460 But it seemed

01:08:16.520 like, no one

01:08:17.640 accused him of

01:08:18.480 selling drugs, by

01:08:19.280 the way.

01:08:20.180 You know, you

01:08:20.560 would never know

01:08:20.940 that from me in

01:08:21.340 the New York

01:08:21.580 Times, but he was

01:08:22.220 not like dealing

01:08:23.140 drugs on

01:08:23.600 playgrounds or

01:08:24.160 anything like

01:08:24.500 that.

01:08:24.680 He had a

01:08:25.040 site that

01:08:27.160 made commerce

01:08:28.340 possible outside

01:08:29.520 the control of

01:08:30.460 government, and

01:08:31.960 there apparently

01:08:32.720 were bad people

01:08:33.480 doing bad things

01:08:34.120 on it.

01:08:34.380 Also, a lot of

01:08:34.800 good people doing

01:08:35.260 good things on

01:08:35.760 it, but none

01:08:36.360 of it was

01:08:36.620 controlled by

01:08:36.980 the government,

01:08:37.560 and he got

01:08:38.040 life in prison

01:08:38.480 for that.

01:08:39.700 That's my

01:08:40.120 takeaway.

01:08:41.640 And so maybe

01:08:42.980 there will,

01:08:44.380 my sort of

01:08:46.460 conclusion from

01:08:46.980 this is, as

01:08:48.120 long as people

01:08:48.860 like you create

01:08:49.680 technology that

01:08:50.500 makes it harder

01:08:51.060 for government to

01:08:51.780 control people,

01:08:52.520 you will be a

01:08:53.220 target of

01:08:54.260 government

01:08:54.540 action.

01:08:55.740 Do you think

01:08:55.900 that's...

01:08:57.580 Well, first

01:09:00.120 of all, I

01:09:00.880 wouldn't necessarily

01:09:01.500 compare Telegram

01:09:02.940 with Silk Road.

01:09:03.640 And I'm not,

01:09:04.360 and I didn't mean

01:09:04.840 to, but the

01:09:05.980 idea that they

01:09:08.960 need to control

01:09:11.860 everything that is

01:09:12.700 happening online,

01:09:13.500 and if they

01:09:14.280 can't, they're

01:09:14.880 going to punish

01:09:15.360 you, that does

01:09:16.720 seem like a real

01:09:17.540 fact.

01:09:18.780 I think everybody's

01:09:19.860 trying to reach

01:09:22.280 their goals and be

01:09:23.280 more efficient in

01:09:24.120 what they do.

01:09:24.920 For example, you

01:09:26.140 ask any

01:09:27.620 minister of

01:09:28.140 interior, any

01:09:29.380 head of police,

01:09:30.520 and they'll tell

01:09:31.300 you, oh,

01:09:32.180 encryption is a

01:09:32.720 big problem.

01:09:33.820 If it weren't for

01:09:34.820 encryption, we would

01:09:35.700 solve all crime.

01:09:36.840 They don't see

01:09:39.360 it two steps

01:09:40.800 or three steps

01:09:41.320 ahead.

01:09:41.880 Yes.

01:09:42.680 And it's not

01:09:43.700 necessarily like

01:09:44.420 some huge

01:09:45.000 conspiracy where

01:09:46.060 evil governments

01:09:47.300 want to take

01:09:48.480 more and more

01:09:48.840 control, although

01:09:49.780 that may be the

01:09:50.440 case.

01:09:50.700 I'm not

01:09:51.000 knowledgeable on

01:09:51.640 that subject.

01:09:53.240 It seems to

01:09:54.200 me more like

01:09:55.100 everybody's trying

01:09:56.400 to solve the

01:09:58.800 problems that

01:09:59.480 they see using

01:10:01.300 the tools that

01:10:02.200 they have at

01:10:02.780 their disposal,

01:10:03.700 even if it

01:10:05.840 negatively impacts

01:10:06.800 other areas of

01:10:09.200 our lives.

01:10:10.300 You're a very

01:10:10.760 generous man,

01:10:12.220 I must say.

01:10:13.380 Last question,

01:10:14.160 and thank you

01:10:14.440 for doing this.

01:10:16.120 How long are

01:10:16.980 you going to be

01:10:17.400 in France, and

01:10:18.700 once you leave

01:10:19.320 France, will you

01:10:19.760 be coming back

01:10:20.260 to France?

01:10:21.400 I don't know

01:10:22.580 yet when these

01:10:24.840 restrictions will

01:10:25.520 be lifted.

01:10:26.240 I hope later

01:10:27.680 this year we'll

01:10:28.340 be able to

01:10:28.960 travel to my

01:10:30.960 home country,

01:10:32.020 which is Dubai,

01:10:33.220 freely.

01:10:33.860 I will

01:10:36.940 probably come

01:10:37.620 back to

01:10:38.220 France because

01:10:39.160 it's a great

01:10:39.880 place to

01:10:43.100 spend time

01:10:45.220 in.

01:10:46.320 Of course,

01:10:47.820 I have spent

01:10:49.460 a lot of time

01:10:49.940 in France now,

01:10:50.880 eight months.

01:10:54.360 Kind of a full

01:10:55.260 immersion program.

01:10:56.300 How's your

01:10:56.640 French?

01:10:56.940 It's actually

01:10:59.000 good.

01:10:59.300 I was very

01:10:59.760 good when I

01:11:00.780 passed my

01:11:01.200 French exam to

01:11:02.020 receive the

01:11:02.460 passport.

01:11:03.740 It got 97

01:11:04.740 points out of

01:11:05.660 100.

01:11:06.520 But I didn't

01:11:07.240 practice my

01:11:07.780 French much.

01:11:09.000 Most of my

01:11:09.360 friends are

01:11:09.840 Americans,

01:11:11.360 even here in

01:11:13.920 Paris.

01:11:15.020 And my

01:11:16.180 French friends

01:11:16.800 speak perfect

01:11:17.580 English, so I

01:11:18.480 didn't get a

01:11:19.320 chance to

01:11:19.640 practice.

01:11:20.880 But now you've

01:11:21.680 had that chance?

01:11:22.240 No, because

01:11:25.320 they speak

01:11:25.640 English with

01:11:26.100 me.

01:11:26.740 It's changed.

01:11:27.700 Before, 15

01:11:29.200 years ago, 20

01:11:30.000 years ago, it

01:11:31.560 was difficult not

01:11:33.020 to speak French

01:11:33.700 in France.

01:11:34.820 Now, for

01:11:35.920 better or worse,

01:11:37.300 you can get

01:11:37.820 by using

01:11:38.620 English.

01:11:39.300 I'm trying to

01:11:40.160 use my

01:11:40.560 French, but I

01:11:42.380 sound even less

01:11:44.540 intelligent in

01:11:45.380 French than in

01:11:46.280 English.

01:11:46.700 So people

01:11:47.620 switch back to

01:11:48.600 English with

01:11:49.020 me.

01:11:49.220 But you

01:11:51.020 don't

01:11:51.180 anticipate

01:11:51.600 having to

01:11:53.160 stay for the

01:11:53.980 next 20

01:11:54.360 years or

01:11:54.800 anything here?

01:11:55.600 I would be

01:11:56.840 very surprised

01:11:57.700 if that

01:11:58.120 happened.

01:11:58.820 Because, you

01:11:59.260 see, I'm

01:11:59.520 traveling to

01:12:00.420 Dubai, I'm

01:12:01.000 coming back.

01:12:01.800 It's obvious

01:12:02.820 that I'm

01:12:04.180 not somebody

01:12:06.100 who would

01:12:06.660 try to

01:12:07.360 escape forever.

01:12:09.500 And this

01:12:12.440 investigation has

01:12:13.220 to be concluded

01:12:14.000 in one way or

01:12:15.640 the other.

01:12:16.260 Of course,

01:12:16.820 then if it

01:12:17.380 goes to trial,

01:12:18.220 if that

01:12:18.580 happens,

01:12:19.220 it can take

01:12:19.900 another several

01:12:20.920 years.

01:12:22.160 But then

01:12:22.680 again, it

01:12:23.060 would be

01:12:23.740 completely

01:12:24.540 crazy, I

01:12:27.020 would say,

01:12:27.800 if I would

01:12:28.500 have to

01:12:29.180 move to

01:12:30.080 France and

01:12:30.580 live here

01:12:30.940 permanently

01:12:31.500 for the

01:12:33.080 whole duration

01:12:33.740 of this

01:12:34.060 process.

01:12:36.000 I would

01:12:36.540 say, most

01:12:38.420 likely, I

01:12:41.620 expect that

01:12:42.780 I would be

01:12:44.080 able to

01:12:44.440 travel again

01:12:45.180 later this

01:12:45.680 year.

01:12:46.740 Well, we're

01:12:47.040 certainly rooting

01:12:47.500 for you.

01:12:48.000 Pavel, thank

01:12:48.340 you very much.

01:12:48.760 Thank you so

01:12:49.460 much.

01:12:53.860 We want to

01:12:54.480 thank you for

01:12:54.880 watching us on

01:12:55.540 Spotify, a

01:12:56.360 company that we

01:12:56.920 use every day.

01:12:57.880 We know the

01:12:58.120 people who run

01:12:58.580 it, good

01:12:59.000 people.

01:12:59.820 While you're

01:13:00.380 here, do us

01:13:01.140 a favor, hit

01:13:01.920 follow and tap

01:13:03.340 the bell so you

01:13:04.300 never miss an

01:13:04.860 episode.

01:13:05.860 We have real

01:13:06.560 conversations, news,

01:13:07.600 things that actually

01:13:08.340 matter.

01:13:09.020 Telling the truth

01:13:09.540 always, you will

01:13:10.440 not miss it if you

01:13:11.740 follow us on

01:13:12.740 Spotify and hit the

01:13:13.460 bell.

01:13:13.980 We appreciate it.

01:13:14.540 Thanks for

01:13:14.820 watching.

The Tucker Carlson Show - June 09, 2025

Pavel Durov Speaks Out for the First Time Since His Politically-Motivated Arrest in France

Episode Stats

Length

Words per Minute

Word Count

Sentence Count

Misogynist Sentences

Hate Speech Sentences

Summary

Transcript