The Tucker Carlson Show - Stefan Passantino： Liz Cheney’s J6 Crimes & Mission to Destroy Any Lawyer Who Dares Represent Trump

00:00:00.000 welcome to the tucker carlson show we bring you stories that have not been showcased anywhere else

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00:00:26.300 at tucker carlson.com here's the episode okay so i think a lot of us who were watching the um

00:00:32.340 the january 6th committee hearings etc particularly those of us who knew liz cheney very well um began

00:00:40.100 to suspect that wow this is not unfolding um in a way that's recognizable and then you begin to think

00:00:46.300 well this could be completely illegitimate and then by the end i'm thinking and i'm texting this to

00:00:50.700 cheney by the way as it's happening um this seems like police state stuff uh you were in the middle

00:00:56.320 of it so just if you wouldn't mind setting the the story for us what what was your involvement in the

00:01:04.760 january 6th aftermath yeah so on the aftermath side i'm a lawyer and i'd represented a number of

00:01:12.500 witnesses who were giving testimony before the january 6th committee mostly uneventful things i

00:01:18.580 hid what kind of lawyer were you so i'm a political lawyer if you can call such a thing i i'm sort of

00:01:23.860 the the living embodiment of a lot of the sort of dysfunction of washington dc that you need to have

00:01:29.140 such a thing as a political lawyer fair of dealing with all of the sort of regulatory world of if you

00:01:34.940 want to engage with politicians if you want to give them money if you want to lobby them if you want to

00:01:39.360 give them gifts if you want to advocate there's a whole myriad of regulations that surround that which

00:01:45.380 create professions for people like me to help people navigate what are the rules of the road if

00:01:51.160 i want to communicate and that includes interfacing with government investigations oversight hearings

00:01:56.640 all of those various activities and so for 30 years i've been a relatively anonymous lawyer whose job

00:02:04.820 it's been to help people just follow the rules so that they can be heard they have their opportunity

00:02:10.740 to petition government that's been my background i had a sort of career transforming moment where i went

00:02:18.080 from running the political law compliance shop for one of the largest law firms in the world a big

00:02:24.340 major international law firm that had massive offices on k street heading up that political office

00:02:30.980 to being asked by president trump to be his deputy white house counsel so for the first two years of

00:02:37.520 his presidency they decided that they were going to need someone who had been around the block for a

00:02:44.240 little while yeah to help them navigate because remember unlike most incoming governments which are

00:02:50.800 staffed by people who have been in government their entire lives and they just continue perpetuating

00:02:55.580 the machine of being government people who are now working in the white house that's how we do things

00:02:59.560 in dc except in 2016 when president trump comes in and is not only bringing in people who really don't come

00:03:06.780 from the government background they come from successful business backgrounds and traditionally

00:03:10.700 not even so much from public companies just not used to the fact that there's myriad washington rules

00:03:17.500 that are foreign to anyone who's not been part of that they think that because voters chose trump they have

00:03:22.960 power but they don't realize voters have no power correct without a doubt and my job was to be the person

00:03:28.980 who came in and really helped orient people to how do you navigate this bureaucracy that's called

00:03:35.780 washington dc how do you deal with all of the rules that regulate getting the job done that you were

00:03:41.520 elected for so i was the deputy white house counsel whose job it was to make sure that people understood

00:03:47.080 and followed the rules now of course fast forwarding it became entirely too delicious if you have the

00:03:53.800 opportunity to make ethics allegations against trump's ethics lawyer that's a story that's too good to check

00:03:59.560 and so i became known after having gone into that work and having worked for the president i did that

00:04:06.820 for two years and then i moved effectively to the other side of the gates i helped represent the

00:04:12.820 companies that were in the crosshairs i did a lot of work for the trump organization and i did a lot of

00:04:16.760 work for companies that wanted to interact and engage with the government but i was no longer a

00:04:21.960 government worker i went back to being a practicing lawyer in washington dc and one of the things that

00:04:27.900 that came along as the january 6 investigation comes along and that committee blanketed washington dc

00:04:35.800 with subpoenas you you see a lot of the very big names all having been called in to testify but there

00:04:43.280 were some 2 000 people that were called before the january 6 committee including very low-level staffers

00:04:50.140 very low-level campaign workers all of whom got knocks on the door from the fbi handing them subpoenas

00:04:56.980 and all of whom were saying hey well since i'm here handing you the subpoena you want to just talk a

00:05:02.280 little bit about your role as a junior campaign person or a junior staffer or xyz within the white

00:05:08.820 house they were all getting brought in before this it's much uh the scale was much larger than anything

00:05:15.700 that happened during 1950s in the huac period um and the number of people went to prison much greater

00:05:21.820 than during the mccarthy hearings i mean if you're looking for the emergence of fascism in the united

00:05:27.040 states like we just saw it right if i can just say sorry i can't control myself um so what role did

00:05:31.940 liz cheney play in this so liz cheney who was i guess technically the vice chair of the january 6

00:05:37.080 committee which is i don't think actually technically a constitutional role but she was one of the people

00:05:42.280 who was running the january 6 committee and as they had been blanketing washington dc with subpoenas

00:05:49.280 lots and lots of very very young people would come back into talking to the folks which colloquially

00:05:57.900 occured in trump world hey i just got contacted by the fbi they want me to come testify i have no idea

00:06:04.380 what to do and so there was a process for some of the younger lawyers to say well let's try to find

00:06:09.820 lawyers for these people who will just help them navigate this investigation getting brought before

00:06:15.260 the january are these people who smashed windows in the capitol or assaulted cops no no absolutely

00:06:20.240 these are the people who happen to have been working in the trump campaign in 2020 or had been

00:06:27.160 working in the white house in 2020 or in some way had something to offer with respect to some of them

00:06:33.500 not at january 6 the protest oh yeah nobody who i was representing was at a protest everyone who i was

00:06:40.040 representing were people who had either worked in the white house or had worked for they had nothing

00:06:44.840 to do with the january 6th demonstration no the okay just i just want to be clear on that was to

00:06:50.520 create a narrative of what was happening inside the white house what was happening inside the campaign

00:06:56.100 from the election in 2020 through january 6th and afterwards and to try to create a political narrative

00:07:02.920 of what was happening and sort of one of the 101 investigative rules is always start with the

00:07:09.660 junior youngest most people intimidate them get them to say things that you can then use to create

00:07:16.660 a political narrative or whatever the narrative was and i was i'd represented a few of those fairly

00:07:22.000 significant folks but mostly i was being asked to help these very very young people who were just

00:07:27.860 getting hailed before this committee to try to give testimony and it was they're using the fbi

00:07:32.900 for this just to be clear oh yes i no question i literally they would hand subpoenas and i had one

00:07:38.420 very young she was working in the campaign office couldn't have been more than 23 24 years old

00:07:44.220 who told me the story not only did the fbi show up unannounced at her door but when she answered the

00:07:51.080 door the fbi said well while we're here you mind if we just ask you some questions about what you were

00:07:57.360 doing what was president trump doing what was the campaign doing with respect to messaging about january

00:08:02.880 6th which message as a lawyer correct there there was a was this girl at january 6th this girl

00:08:09.480 was a campaign worker so she was helping to put out doing junior research of what was now colloquially

00:08:17.980 called the stop the steal effort that they were going after these younger folks trying to find out

00:08:24.200 what it was that they were talking about and to me as a lawyer in order for the system to work

00:08:29.600 full transparency also requires that people's rights be protected and that includes the right

00:08:35.500 that you have somebody there who's protecting your interests if you are a junior person who might have

00:08:40.960 something to offer with respect to what happened in january 6th query to me whether the january 6th

00:08:46.660 even served a legislative function at all but stipulating that it was there for some legislative

00:08:53.020 purpose people who are providing information under subpoena and under oath and under penalty of

00:08:59.220 being found liable for false statements should have somebody there to protect their interests

00:09:04.140 so you make a point that people might not be aware of so the congress is the legislative branch of

00:09:08.160 government and so the purpose of committee hearings in the congress is to craft legislation

00:09:13.820 correct right there's no other purpose correct committees don't in the congress do not exist

00:09:18.720 to use the fbi to hound their political opponents into prison correct correct and not only that but

00:09:25.100 the the framers of the constitution made it very very clear there are to be three branches of

00:09:29.600 government there is a legislative branch that is only supposed to be making the laws it's up to the

00:09:35.060 executive branch to execute those laws and then the judiciary to actually enforce those laws that's a

00:09:40.660 very clear standard and when you have a legislative body and this is what happened to me and i'm sure

00:09:46.600 we're going to get into it that decides that they are going to drift beyond their legislative function

00:09:52.460 their fact-finding function in support of passing legislation and they're going to move into a law

00:09:58.300 enforcement method we don't like this person this person presents a narrative to us that we don't like

00:10:04.820 we are going to use the full weight and power of the united states government to try and execute that

00:10:12.100 person without any due process of law that is completely unconstitutional and that is ultimately

00:10:17.820 where i found myself at the end of this road so that's just that's a police state function that's

00:10:23.240 exactly and that is that is in fact exactly what what ended up happening to me so um you

00:10:28.860 discovered in the course of this i was going to say you believe but it's not a question of what you

00:10:33.440 believe it's a fact that liz cheney broke the law during the course of of this investigation yeah i mean

00:10:38.480 the the nice thing i think is there's nothing that i'm going to tell you today that's not written out

00:10:44.740 under oath in testimony that's in black and white for anyone to see i've just been trying to get

00:10:50.340 people to pay attention and look at it but as a and i have filed a lawsuit against the federal

00:10:55.000 government on this point saying that the federal government abused its power and in this case against

00:11:02.120 me by incorporating and taking certain information distributing them out obviously there's a number

00:11:11.300 of things that the government lets you sue them for there are a lot of things they don't let you

00:11:14.700 sue them for but one of the things that they did was they really invaded my privacy and they did that in

00:11:20.400 a way to deny me my civil rights because it was all in further and stuff but you're just the lawyer

00:11:25.160 represent i mean our our system affords every accused person accused of a serious crime

00:11:30.800 legal representation right correct so you didn't you weren't at january 6th i was not at january

00:11:35.860 have you ever planned an insurrection of any kind i did not plan any insurrection right so i just want

00:11:40.900 to be clear on this like you're not the defendant here correct you're representing low level staffers

00:11:47.420 who were not at january 6th not accused of any crime on january 6th who had nothing to do with

00:11:52.620 january 6th and you're just their lawyer because they need a lawyer because the people conducting

00:11:56.760 these investigations are so unscrupulous they can't go in without legal representation correct

00:12:00.780 am i characterizing you are exactly and where i found myself in the wood shipper was that one of

00:12:05.560 those people who i represented who had given some 15 hours of testimony under oath before the committee

00:12:12.480 then terminated her relationship with me and gave diametrically different testimony

00:12:18.640 to what had been said before that's a crime well some would say but it's a hold on no just without

00:12:26.000 even getting into the specifics of this which i hope you'll explain to us but it is not legal to

00:12:31.680 commit perjury correct correct okay and and it certainly presents something of a conundrum when a

00:12:37.760 witness has presented one set of testimony under oath and then provides testimony under oath which

00:12:44.820 could be seen as contradictory to the former testimony and both of those elements of testimony

00:12:50.520 were under oath yeah that presents a significant try that in a deposition correct you go to jail

00:12:54.700 correct well it's one of the lawyer's greatest sort of matlock cross-examination that everyone

00:13:00.360 dreams of is were you lying then or were you lying now i've been there in depositions you know they

00:13:05.500 have the previous transcript i mean this is but i'm only making the point that everyone knows this

00:13:09.600 this is like really simple you can't do that you can't lie under oath correct correct so who is this

00:13:13.580 person and so she say so this is cassidy hutchinson that we're talking about who who famously testified

00:13:18.360 live before the committee and that it became extraordinarily well known that she was an

00:13:25.340 extremely powerful witness when she testified live before the committee and as one of the elements

00:13:31.180 of providing that testimony there was significant discussion of the fact that she had previously had

00:13:38.900 this trump lawyer who had effectively coached her not to tell the truth had coached her to say

00:13:45.680 i don't recall when in fact she did recall all of those things were being accused of me as the

00:13:52.160 lawyer who was cassidy hutchinson so cassidy hutchinson we i don't know that we actually

00:13:57.820 overlapped in in the white house together and if we did i i didn't know her but she came in as

00:14:03.880 i believe started as an intern i think she was 25 years old at the time and ultimately rose to a

00:14:10.700 very prominent position with mark meadows in the chief of staff office in that she had

00:14:17.220 proximity and access to a great deal that was happening in the white house and so she was one

00:14:24.800 of these myriad of witnesses not to my mind unlike a number of the other witnesses who i had been

00:14:32.340 bringing before the committee who might have observed things and might have seen things had provided

00:14:36.700 her testimony i thought it was over it only happened subsequently that i learned that while i was

00:14:43.480 representing her liz cheney was communicating with her behind my back while i was her lawyer now

00:14:51.080 that's a lawyer 101 thing that you're just not allowed to do one of the things that's set up within

00:14:57.800 our legal rules of ethics in order to prevent an unscrupulous lawyer from manipulating the client is there

00:15:06.080 is a very clear bar rule that says if somebody is represented by a lawyer with respect to a

00:15:11.620 particular matter you the lawyer on the other side don't have the right to communicate directly to

00:15:17.360 that client except through the lawyer and that's rules in place to prevent people from circumventing

00:15:25.160 the lawyer and is this a brand new rule or is it long-standing this is a long-standing this is one

00:15:29.520 of those 101 rules okay this is a core rule that any attorney would be aware of clearly a core rule that

00:15:35.460 and it's also a core rule that you can't do knowingly indirectly which you can't do directly

00:15:41.220 you can't and this happened here from all the things that i've seen like i said you don't have

00:15:46.040 to believe a word i'm saying it's right in the testimony that her staffers which were lawyers

00:15:51.700 were also communicating and she was working through what i would call a cutout which was alissa farrah

00:15:57.120 griffin was effectively operating as cassidy's friend who started the process as a go-between

00:16:03.800 alissa farrah griffin is like some tv girl she is a a prominent uh tv personality and also famously

00:16:11.580 uh not just on the view but also was a i think a contributor for cnn which right a lot of folks and

00:16:17.880 i just feel duty bound to report that she's tremendously stupid i i just want to say that

00:16:24.240 because uh i'm aware of her yes so we were in a meeting here at tcn the other day and i looked

00:16:29.460 around the room and every other person had a kind of ruddy vitality sort of pink cheeks alertness

00:16:37.920 bright eyes full mental acuity and a cheerfulness you could almost smell and i asked why does everyone

00:16:46.720 look so good and part of the answer of course is they like what we do for a living it's really

00:16:52.100 interesting we think it's important but another reason everyone looks so good is because they'd all

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00:18:45.880 so okay so cassie hutchinson is while you're representing her is communicating with the other

00:19:05.800 correct and and what that resulted in and we've now learned through some fantastic work that has

00:19:12.520 been done by the house chairman laudermilk of the house admin oversight committee uncovered documents

00:19:18.000 that i just would not have believed still existed or would have been turned over to the government

00:19:22.740 which effectively prove that there was this back channel of conversation between liz cheney and her

00:19:30.500 staff both of whom are lawyers and others effectively to say we have more we want to say we have more

00:19:38.780 testimony that cassidy hutchinson wants to provide whether that's because she chose to provide different

00:19:44.940 testimony or because she felt gee i just wasn't asked the right questions whatever the reason was

00:19:50.800 there was this backline communication that was created completely unbeknownst to me that there was going to be

00:19:58.280 an opportunity for another investigation of cassidy hutchinson but most importantly to me it was a

00:20:08.080 parallel element of well not only hey i want to change my story and i want to say a lot of really

00:20:13.320 inflammatory things about donald trump that i didn't testify to under the previous times when i was before you

00:20:19.500 but also we're not going to tell my lawyer this trump lawyer that we're having this conversation and we are

00:20:26.920 going to bombard both of you with questions that they had already communicated what those questions

00:20:32.760 were going to be with an effort to try to get me to obstruct congress in the face of this deposition it

00:20:40.020 was effectively a law enforcement sting operation to get me to effectively block her drag her out of

00:20:47.120 there silence her stop her from testifying in this third interview it was a it was they were they were

00:20:52.980 setting you up as her lawyer correct and the idea was that they were going to not only get these very

00:20:59.760 inflammatory facts new facts out of cassidy hutchinson but in the process of doing that we're setting up a

00:21:07.220 third interview that i was going to be in attendance at and at which time liz cheney was going to ask

00:21:14.140 cassidy hutchinson certain questions that cassidy had already fed her saying these are things i want to say

00:21:19.540 and she talks about in her testimony that they knew that i was going to be extremely upset that

00:21:27.420 these questions were being asked and the expectation was that i was going to obstruct her that i was going

00:21:31.840 to drag her out of i was going to do something and they did this on purpose clearly on purpose they

00:21:37.080 testified so anyone who's willing to i mean most normal people's brains don't even go to places like

00:21:41.520 that you just don't think that way these are the people who and you don't have to comment but

00:21:45.780 they set up january 6th itself was a was effectively uh it was fake um and so it it's the same way of

00:21:56.280 thinking yeah it's not straightforward it's totally deceptive it's stealthy and and and with respect to

00:22:01.520 this it was explicitly an off the records operation by liz cheney i had this conversation with her staff

00:22:08.100 afterwards so you can imagine we had in the course of it was in february and march we had gone through

00:22:14.400 we'd done her testimony we'd done her depositions she'd given the testimony those transcripts were

00:22:19.140 out there and then almost two months later i get a follow-up phone call saying liz cheney wants to do

00:22:25.680 a special interview with cassidy hutchinson one-on-one in-purpose person in the capitol building

00:22:32.420 which was all of which was highly unusual because all every other investigation conducted by the

00:22:37.860 january 6th committee was being done either by zoom or in person with numerous representatives from the

00:22:43.600 committee their staff members if they wanted to attend could attend this one i was told must be

00:22:48.400 in person it's going to be just liz cheney just her staffer just me just cassidy hutchinson and the way

00:22:55.240 that they set this up you'll remember this is in 2022 when all of the federal government was completely

00:23:00.480 in lockdown because of covet there was no public access to the to the people's house you couldn't get

00:23:05.840 in but we were going to be afforded access for the purpose of this special interview that was going to

00:23:11.960 be conducted and it was very surreal because as we were led into this deposition and we walk in it

00:23:18.640 was the top floor of the canon office building there's a a little antechamber off of one of the

00:23:23.040 elevators that was completely closed to the public and as we were walking through there me and cassie

00:23:28.500 hutchinson there were capitol police everywhere i was and i remember remarking to myself at the time this

00:23:33.640 is surreal how in a closed office building there are all of these capitol police for this interview that

00:23:40.480 i'm conducting with liz cheney i said she it's really surprising she has so much protection in

00:23:45.540 a closed building what what i didn't realize is they were there for me they were there because the

00:23:49.580 expectation was that when cassidy hutchinson testified to the things that she had already

00:23:55.160 pre-organized she was going to testify with liz cheney that i might get violent i might be the one

00:24:00.420 who does something to her and they're going to get violent that was the expectation i'm not i am

00:24:05.660 surmising that by the fact that in a closed office building as i walk into this interview which was

00:24:12.260 literally only me cassidy hutchinson liz cheney and dan george her staff and then there was a

00:24:19.060 videographer and a court reporter who were there it was just us and there were capital you're a physical

00:24:24.040 threat this is like this weird feminized passive aggression that rules all of our relationships now

00:24:31.080 and it comes from people like liz cheney like she's out of the closet fascist but you're the threat

00:24:35.800 but the thing that was really interesting and and and the part that i i found particularly unusual is

00:24:41.580 that coming out of that it it was a phenomenon in every one of our interviews that every time after

00:24:46.980 cassidy hutchinson had testified while i was representing her there would suddenly be leaks in real

00:24:52.200 time about the fact she had testified what a great witness she was and my obvious initial

00:24:57.360 assumptions this committee is leaking on me immediately as soon as my client goes in and it

00:25:02.640 was my job to protect her my job she was somebody who had presented to me as saying i don't want to

00:25:09.260 testify i don't like the january 6 committee i don't want to do any of this how do i get through

00:25:14.600 this process and be able to have a job on the back end that was the mission as it was presented to

00:25:19.000 me i will testify if i have to but i want to be able to get through it but these leaks kept

00:25:24.260 happening and and i kept assuming that it was the january 6 committee so after this third interview

00:25:29.500 the one that i'm describing to you which was there was only four of us in the room literally as cassidy

00:25:35.480 and i are in the cab driving out together i have on my phone a text message that had clearly come

00:25:44.040 while we were testifying asking me about her testimony and i was livid about that that in fact

00:25:51.380 in real time somebody's leaking to the press so i took a screenshot of that and i sent it to dan

00:25:57.080 george the staffer and i was really upset i sent him a text and i still have all these texts and i

00:26:01.260 said well that was really fast you guys did that and i had a subsequent conversation i said why are

00:26:06.540 you destroying this poor girl's life by every time she testifies you are leaking about it and now you're

00:26:14.440 leaking about this third interview you're destroying any career opportunities she might have had and what

00:26:19.500 dan george told me he says i assure you this was not us who leaked nobody on the committee knew we

00:26:25.780 were doing this interview it was only liz cheney and i and that dan george said to me and in fact

00:26:31.700 the other committee members would probably be upset if they knew that liz cheney had done that and he

00:26:37.200 told me all of that in the context of trying to assure me that they weren't the ones who had leaked in

00:26:42.760 real time the fact that we had gone in but it was extraordinarily unusual to me that so who did it

00:26:48.360 who did the leaking yeah well um i can speculate as they as they say in the uh in the horror movies

00:26:55.500 uh the call might have come from inside the house yeah uh it might have been my client who is and in

00:27:00.820 fact one of the things that you think it was cassie hutchinson did that i have no way of knowing of

00:27:06.200 course but what i do know is that in real time when all of the allegations against me broke i was

00:27:12.300 reached out to by former friends of cassidy hutchinson saying i can't believe what they're

00:27:16.900 doing to you i have text messages in real time between me the friend and cassidy in which cassidy

00:27:24.160 is saying the diametrically opposite stefan wants me to cooperate the committee i don't want to

00:27:28.620 cooperate with the committee and also saying stefan assures me that the committee's not going to leak

00:27:34.720 but i don't trust that i and this is cassidy hutchinson texting to her friend i'm going to run my

00:27:41.640 own parallel operation i'm and she identifies i'm going to have a line of communication with the

00:27:47.260 new york times and politico and she's already talking at the very outset of our representation

00:27:53.020 that she doesn't trust that this will stay quiet and that she wanted to run her own investigation

00:27:58.420 i filed a defamation lawsuit against uh weissman a msnbc person i included all of these

00:28:05.140 text messages yes the federal prosecutor yes

00:28:07.240 who as you can imagine when all these stories came out i had just unending scorn but one of the

00:28:14.260 things that cassie hutchinson had testified to in her deposition when she was talking about me

00:28:19.120 among all of the negative and bad things that she said about me some of which i think were just not

00:28:25.660 true but largely a lot of which and it sounds a little weird coming for me can be explained as

00:28:31.980 a somewhat impressionable person coming in thinking she's going into an adversarial relationship but

00:28:36.680 but one of the things that came out of that was cassidy was very very clear stefan never told me to

00:28:42.880 lie never told me to lie and that when andrew weissman and others literally tweeted well her new

00:28:49.200 lawyers are the good lawyers unlike the lawyer that told her to lie well i just had had enough at that

00:28:53.900 point it's like i'm just not going to be a victim anymore we have defamation laws for a purpose

00:28:58.260 i'm going to avail myself of them and in that complaint the text messages that i've just described

00:29:03.120 to you i've screenshotted and they're in they're in the complaint but it was somewhat clear to me

00:29:09.220 from text messages that i've seen that there appears to have been from the very outset a messaging

00:29:15.460 operation that was being run by my own client completely unbeknownst to me now i'm basing that

00:29:21.420 on just text messages that i've seen and basing it on the fact that liz cheney's staffers assured me

00:29:26.240 nobody else knew that this was happening and they would never leak it because they wouldn't have

00:29:31.800 wanted their own committee to know and it's it's ironic i'm a little almost embarrassed about it

00:29:36.940 now but in the context of that conversation that i had with dan george i had this i was sort of i was

00:29:43.860 i was still at that point sort of a naive institutionalist washington lawyer i had grown up

00:29:48.860 in washington my whole life i'd been around that i had incredible respect for the institutions of

00:29:53.620 washington for congress for the media for when walter cronkite said something it was a fact

00:29:58.680 incredible respect for the agencies the state department the intelligence and so i was still

00:30:04.160 somewhat in in that world where i had this respect and as i'm having this conversation with dan

00:30:09.720 george the staffer i'm saying i cannot believe you guys were leaking literally while we're in there

00:30:15.660 and he was assuring me he hadn't i had a conversation with dan george i said dan george dan

00:30:20.060 you and i are going to work in this town far too long to be playing games with any leaking to the

00:30:25.680 press and i said i assure you i've practiced law for 30 years this is not how i do business and i

00:30:32.600 have too much respect for the congress and i said and i have too much respect for liz cheney to ever

00:30:37.840 leak and i and i asked him at the time i said i want you to please go and tell liz cheney how much

00:30:43.400 respect i have for her and that i would never leak something that came out of the committee now dan

00:30:48.140 george tells me he had that conversation with cheney i don't know if they actually did but all

00:30:53.200 of these are reasons why to me i was confronted with a highly highly unusual scenario whereby there

00:31:01.200 was this small operation that was done this small interview lots of security but i didn't think

00:31:08.840 anything of it at the time it was unusual but it moved on it was only later after i had been fired as

00:31:17.940 cassidy's lawyer and after she had testified live on tv that she subsequently provided lots of

00:31:25.720 testimony describing in detail the nature of our interaction together and it was in that september

00:31:31.820 transcript that i learned all of these back channel things i learned the degree to which

00:31:37.480 there had been communications that had been going on how they had set up this interview

00:31:41.480 how they had expected me to block her from testifying how they had sort of laughed about

00:31:47.480 how surprised i was that a lot of these new facts were coming out and she literally testifies in that

00:31:54.740 interview that as as we're walking out of the canon office building the two of us we've completed

00:31:59.860 this interview i didn't obstruct her the transcripts are there i never blocked her from

00:32:03.500 testifying i never told her i never created objections to coach her i didn't do any of those

00:32:09.560 things but she literally describes in her testimony as we're walking out the door she turns around to

00:32:16.060 dan george literally behind my back saying something to the effect of mouthing i'm so screwed and the

00:32:21.740 dan george mouths back to her i'm sorry now when i'm reading this in the transcript and it's all there

00:32:26.240 for anyone who wants to read it i realize this whole thing had been a setup and if it was simply a

00:32:32.640 question of well we just want to get the truth from cassidy well then just fire me get a new lawyer let

00:32:37.820 her testify no this was very important that i be sitting next to her while she provided this new

00:32:44.340 inflammatory testimony with the eye towards having me obstruct her in some way why were they so intent

00:32:51.140 on hurting you you're just a lawyer well i'm speculating on on that um but but one could infer

00:32:57.740 that you need to have a reason why testimony changed why was it that somebody who provided testimony

00:33:04.320 one way asked open-ended questions where the lawyer didn't obstruct didn't block the person

00:33:10.280 in fact in the first two interviews the only objections i ever raised was when dan george was

00:33:15.800 asking really incoherent questions and i would say do you mean this and he would literally thank me

00:33:20.640 it's all on the record you don't have to believe me those are the only times i interrupted um

00:33:26.760 but now you have to say well now the person who was asked hey what happened on the ellipse

00:33:31.520 and tells one story now wants to tell a very diametrically different story about strangling the

00:33:37.420 president strangling secret service or lots of things grabbing the wheel of the limousine these all

00:33:43.060 came out as new evidence so let's just can we get specific about some of some of the allegations

00:33:47.880 that she made in her subsequent interview which you say contradicts previous testimony yeah so

00:33:53.500 so she am i misremembering or did is she the one who said that trump was such a lunatic that he tried

00:34:00.260 to steer the beast the presidential limousine from the back that that testimony came for the first time

00:34:05.820 i believe in her live testimony that was the sort of very dramatic testimony where she says i you know

00:34:11.920 they grabbed the clavicle and all of those that testimony came out live the two things that she ever

00:34:18.040 told you that before no now and i want to be fair to cassidy which might might seem odd that i'm saying

00:34:25.780 that but i want to be fair to her because she testifies that in our first meetings she started to

00:34:31.680 describe to me this traumatic thing that she had heard second or third hand about some incident that

00:34:38.080 had happened in the drive back from the ellipse and how i had been cutting her off now i don't have

00:34:44.860 any recollection of that conversation happening between us but i can also say if she had raised

00:34:51.060 oh i'm very concerned that i heard third hand about a thing that i would have cut her i said look that's

00:34:56.800 not what you're here for you're a fact witness your job is to testify to the facts that you know you're

00:35:03.100 not an expert witness you're not a speculation witness you're not a i'm guessing witness you talk

00:35:09.180 about the facts they're going to interview every single person who had anything to do with the

00:35:15.400 january 6 incidents they're going to talk to the drivers talk to secret service it's not your job

00:35:20.780 to go and talk about things that you think might have happened i could have had that out there and on

00:35:27.140 television it's quite a lurid story it was everywhere and okay so now two years later do we know if that

00:35:35.500 was true did anyone ever come forward and say i saw trump grab the wheel of or assault a secret

00:35:41.260 service agent i mean well here's what we do know um we do know that in real time immediately after

00:35:48.020 that live testimony tony or nato who was the secret service detailee i think he was working the um chief

00:35:54.920 of staff's office i think he's like a deputy of operations he testified immediately or at least said

00:36:00.520 publicly that's not true and and there was another really interesting and cassie udginson never claimed

00:36:06.640 that she saw oh she was never this was this was a second or third hand and then when are you allowed

00:36:11.000 to throw that out in a hearing just like i heard that yeah it's not it's not hearsay rules which okay

00:36:18.120 you're thinking it's like well you can't talk about it out of court statement the rules are a little

00:36:23.280 more wide open than that you can talk about hearsay and and i would allow witnesses to describe

00:36:28.960 i heard fred say xyz happened well that's something you heard you are absolutely entitled

00:36:34.580 to testify to all of those things but what happened in this case is she testified about i had heard that

00:36:41.460 this happened well the people who would have told her that said i didn't talk to cassidy and that

00:36:47.940 didn't happen and and i i knew i was in trouble i want to back up a little when i knew that i would

00:36:53.640 just sort of gone from this was just another client and just sort of an unusual set of circumstances

00:36:58.060 i had been fired i had been very publicly fired because i was a trump lawyer and she had put out

00:37:03.920 very publicly i want to testify i don't feel comfortable having this trump lawyer all fair i

00:37:09.900 mean that's perfectly her right to do after all and then she had given this very dramatic testimony

00:37:15.960 that had been refuted by people who were physically there i was representing another witness another very

00:37:21.440 junior witness who had been working in the white house on january 6th who had been very closely

00:37:29.100 interrelated inter relating with the operations people this is in so you imagine those that

00:37:34.900 testimony happened in say june that she testified live on tv in july a month after this had happened

00:37:41.620 i'm still representing witnesses before the committee one of these witnesses who had been working in the

00:37:46.500 white house had been asking and we went through an entire deposition and the deposition ends in a

00:37:52.700 very standard way where the investigator says hey have you had any other conversations with any

00:37:57.600 witnesses about your testimony today have you ever talked to trump about your no i've never done that's

00:38:02.780 a very standard set of questions have you talked to anyone about your witness other than your lawyer

00:38:06.740 and he says no no no he's oh wait he says actually i did talk to someone he says immediately

00:38:12.640 immediately after cassidy hutchinson testified live on tv tony ornato called me and said this makes no

00:38:20.460 sense to me i don't understand why is she doing this what have we missed he testified and this is all in

00:38:26.720 a transcript it's all out there but i'm sitting there as now the lawyer that the committee knows used to

00:38:34.300 represent cassidy hutchinson was fired because i'm a trump lawyer i'm now representing a different witness

00:38:42.040 who is testifying i had no knowledge that he was going to provide that testimony but he is now testifying

00:38:48.500 that in real time either while cassidy was on tv or in the immediate aftermath the fact witness with

00:38:55.420 knowledge had called this young person and said this isn't true now you can imagine for me as i'm sitting

00:39:03.700 representing this witness all of the eyes in the zoom come to me and that was when i realized i'm in trouble

00:39:10.940 here because i heard my witness give a story that's inconsistent with the star witness she had

00:39:17.600 already testified on tv she was already the star witness for the committee i knew they can't bury

00:39:23.360 that nugget the way they could have buried everything else because i heard it and when i saw all of the eyes

00:39:29.300 on that zoom turned to me was when i knew i am now an inconvenient truth for this because i heard him

00:39:37.840 testify coincidence or not within a month i received a doj subpoena criminal subpoena i'm the subject of a

00:39:47.140 criminal investigation i also received this is insane i yes and i and i received an email of course that i

00:39:54.040 still have uh from dan george again saying we're really concerned that you've been sharing information

00:40:03.140 between clients we think you have a conflict of interest and i responded to him i said

00:40:08.320 a lawyers who represent witnesses would have the ability to share information there's no secret about

00:40:15.560 that i said but here dan i'm telling you i did not tell this young person to say that story he said that

00:40:23.520 story i'm telling you it didn't happen who is dan george exactly can you so dan george is a lawyer i

00:40:29.500 think i think that he um i mean he was he was one of the senior lead investigators i worked with him on

00:40:35.180 a number of witnesses the part that was a little shocking to me is he's a congressional staffer

00:40:39.880 congressional staffer uh who then went to the department of justice after this i think he might

00:40:45.240 i don't know for sure i think he was working with jack smith i think he might be now in the u.s

00:40:50.160 attorney's office he might be an assistant u.s attorney in connecticut or somewhere i don't

00:40:53.420 know but he he was in department of justice before he was then he sounds dishonest we had a very good

00:40:59.800 rapport um i was surprised by what was happening and and he and i had worked together on some very

00:41:06.940 sensitive things and i thought we had something of a level of trust i just know what i just know the

00:41:12.180 things that happened i know that right after this young witness gave that testimony that directly

00:41:19.120 contradicted the star witness that i received a phone call from dan george basically saying they

00:41:24.620 were very concerned that i had been feeding this information and then i got a confirming email from

00:41:30.560 him saying we had this conversation you denied that you've shared it that's all fair enough um but that

00:41:37.240 was when i knew that i was in trouble and then out of the blue i start getting doj criminal subpoenas

00:41:42.940 that i'm suddenly under criminal investigation i have no idea what for i clearly had been part of

00:41:49.360 doing a lot of work representing a lot of trump aligned committees i'd done a lot of work for the

00:41:54.320 super PACs there was a lot of talk of how was money flow happening it was in my mind still a legitimate

00:42:01.340 area of inquiry for the department of justice i didn't really think a lot of it at the time clearly

00:42:06.560 i'd never been the subject of a criminal investigation in my life i don't hope to be

00:42:10.420 again um but that conversation then happened i then had to hire a lawyer to start providing all of

00:42:19.060 the information one of the things that was really interesting is the subpoena from the doj you know

00:42:24.860 we want we want to know all of your communications with tony or nato which i'd never had any and we

00:42:30.320 want all of your text messages and signal messages and everything with cassidy hutchinson and all of

00:42:34.860 your other witnesses that you would write i was clearly getting a forensic criminal audit from

00:42:39.840 the department of justice was responding that but still didn't have super high blood pressure i just

00:42:44.760 thought that's just a cost of life of working in washington and being a trump lawyer if you haven't

00:42:48.980 been subpoenaed i guess you haven't really practiced law in washington dc i guess but it was only

00:42:54.380 later when out of the blue i learned that i was effectively going to be made the fall guy for

00:43:03.100 obstruction all of the obstruction that had happened for cassidy hutchinson and that that

00:43:08.620 happened right as a way to explain why her testimony changed correct we did an interview with a woman

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00:45:46.960 and so unless they blamed you for that they would have to explain like how exactly did she

00:46:07.360 testify to something completely different one could infer that that was in fact the the purpose and and

00:46:12.440 what what what had happened which was shocking the part that really just sort of upended my world and

00:46:17.640 and made me then realize the degree to which the institutions were all aligned to create a narrative

00:46:25.060 to further a political purpose as opposed to anything else was i think this was by december of 2022

00:46:33.000 i get a phone call from pam brown of cnn who i had known previously saying hey the committee has been

00:46:40.040 talking that they are going to out the various people who are obstructing congress obstructing

00:46:45.320 cassidy hutchinson we are going to identify those people i said well that's great but i didn't have

00:46:51.180 anything to do with that and she says no we cnn are in possession of a transcript that cassidy hutchinson

00:46:58.260 gave 150 page transcript that she gave on september 14th in which she identifies you stefan as the person

00:47:06.780 who told her to lie who couched her to say i don't recall when i do all of these things we're going to run

00:47:13.800 with that story and i said well i'm telling you i know nothing of these allegations i've never heard these

00:47:20.420 allegations the january 6 committee never called me as a witness they called 2 000 people they never called

00:47:26.700 me in if this is a fact-finding mission you would think that perhaps i would be called at a minimum to be

00:47:33.040 told especially since you're being accused of a crime literally a crime two crimes a felony of

00:47:37.900 obstruction witness tampering these are these are felonies and cnn tells me we're going to run a

00:47:43.580 story tomorrow in which we are going to identify you as the person who obstructed this witness we're

00:47:50.060 going to accuse you of a crime of course i was shocked i said i've never heard this i can't really

00:47:54.700 provide a lot of comment well on that monday as the story world is collapsing my world has not yet

00:48:00.940 collapsed i at that point have now received notice from cnn that tomorrow tuesday they're going to

00:48:08.160 identify me as the person on that day on monday i receive a phone call from one of cassie hutchinson's

00:48:16.380 former friends saying this is outrageous what they're doing to you i have text messages that i have

00:48:22.220 previously provided to cnn and other news networks and these text messages make clear that you stefan were

00:48:30.360 telling cassidy to cooperate and she didn't want to cooperate now i have a conversation at that point

00:48:35.920 with caitlin polance at cnn who's the cnn reporter who's running this story before it had come out and

00:48:43.120 i called caitlin myself i said caitlin i am aware that you're going to run this story that is going to

00:48:48.900 literally accuse me of a crime and i'm aware that you have a transcript that i have never seen before

00:48:54.400 that is going to make these accusations but i'm also aware that you are in possession of text messages

00:49:00.280 that directly contradict that narrative you have cassidy's text messages saying stefan wants me to

00:49:07.040 cooperate i don't want to cooperate i am going to be the one who's going to do this media narrative

00:49:12.920 on my own behind his back and so i said caitlin i said i'm not asking you to exonerate me but if cnn

00:49:19.920 is going to run a story identifying me as a criminal and you are in possession of additional

00:49:27.540 facts that create exculpatory documents you have an obligation to run that and caitlin polance's

00:49:35.360 direct quote to me was that's not newsworthy i said how is that not newsworthy this is directly

00:49:42.600 relevant she said that she said that to me caitlin polance caitlin polance of cnn who is still there

00:49:48.640 at cnn and i then had my lawyer communicate and have numerous conversations where i say i know and

00:49:54.300 those text messages we're referring to are the ones that i put in the in the she didn't didn't caitlin

00:49:58.660 polance did not deny having those text messages correct did not deny said it was not newsworthy so

00:50:04.420 then at that point i know this is just crazy so cnn just for to state the obvious cnn is participating

00:50:12.700 they're not covering news they're participating as you know a part of the machine to destroy you

00:50:18.580 correct and it is clear to me that cnn has received confidential congressional documents pertaining to

00:50:24.520 me that i have never seen cnn had had for however long it was cnn had had this transcript to work on the

00:50:31.680 story i had no idea of these allegations so corrupt it's hard to believe well it gets worse for me

00:50:36.820 unfortunately which is that story then comes out the next day and you can imagine what a bombshell it

00:50:43.640 is did they include the exculpatory text messages oh never to this day never and in fact the things

00:50:50.080 that that i beg what liars what corrupt liars cnn is yeah i i begged cnn i said you're going to release

00:50:58.540 a transcript in which a witness is saying that i coached her to lie while i was representing you have

00:51:05.200 in your possession the actual transcripts of me representing her at a minimum post those two so

00:51:11.680 that the public can see well let me actually read the transcript of stefan representing cassidy hutchinson

00:51:17.840 and let me judge for myself whether he did the things he was accused of doing i have text messages

00:51:24.080 with pamela brown saying please i'm begging you if you're going to destroy my career and you're going

00:51:30.840 to put up this transcript accusing me at least put up the others to this day i don't think that they

00:51:36.580 have to what if pam brown's pam brown is the she was a producer i think that she's she's moved on i

00:51:42.820 she might have been the one who reached out because she had known me previously she's not an on-air

00:51:48.660 person she was she was not she is an on-air person right okay so i thought pamela brown yeah she she has

00:51:54.500 a news program and i think she she took a hiatus because she was having uh a child or children but i think

00:51:59.400 she's back on the air and but i think her involvement might have only been that she was

00:52:03.300 the one who was calling me to just let me know that this was coming and then saying but you need

00:52:08.200 to call caitlin because she's running this so i begged them please put this up i don't i think if

00:52:15.120 you go on cnn today and you say cassie hutchinson transcript the only thing that comes up is the

00:52:20.220 september transcript accusing me i don't think i don't think you could even find those here but

00:52:25.200 this is where it became clear that there was this interplay not only did i realize that on the day

00:52:30.920 these allegations came out cnn had all of this already and it was not lost on me that a lot of the

00:52:38.540 people who were on the january 6 committee who might potentially have had reason to give this to

00:52:43.460 cnn are now all contributors kinziger is over there elissa fair griffin is now a contributor over

00:52:49.460 there some of these they're all being paid by cnn some would yes clearly being paid but what was

00:52:55.020 what was particularly painful for me was two hours after that story breaks i then get a notification

00:53:02.240 from the district of columbia bar saying this is to notify you that we have an open bar investigation

00:53:07.740 relating to all of this content within three hours the dc bar does not operate within three hours based

00:53:14.380 on seeing something on cnn for the first time it is clear that in addition to working with cnn before

00:53:20.200 breaking this story the january 6 committee or somebody was also working with the various bar

00:53:26.620 organizations that i'm a member of to set this story up i literally received bar complaints

00:53:32.680 created on their own accord within hours of this story breaking that does not happen unless they have

00:53:40.300 been forewarned that all of this is coming and as you can imagine you can see why trump has trouble

00:53:45.900 getting lawyers well i mean represent trump or people around trump that destroy your life and that

00:53:51.480 is that is the real core concern that it is fundamental to this democracy that everyone have effective

00:54:00.120 assistance of counsel everyone has the right it does not matter if you are a guantanamo detainee

00:54:06.300 or if you're a republican you are entitled to counsel even if you might be out of favor with the

00:54:14.920 establishment elite and as shakespeare said in henry the sixth if you want to destroy a society the first

00:54:21.000 thing you do is kill all the lawyers well that's what's happening now one within i would say within a

00:54:28.160 few months i started getting bar complaints filed against me by the various institutional organizations

00:54:34.300 set up there's a group called the 65 project which filed bar complaints and the 65 project is named

00:54:41.020 because these are the 65 lawyers that they originally filed bar complaints who had been working with

00:54:46.940 president trump out of 2020 they advertise to this day if you go on the 65 project website you will see

00:54:53.960 they proudly advertise a six-figure ad buy that's running right now in the six swing states destined for

00:55:01.360 republican lawyers saying do not rep resent president trump we you will be disbarred do not represent

00:55:08.920 any of these conservatives we are watching you that is on their website right now any idea who's behind

00:55:14.420 that group uh yeah it's a it's a group there's a lawyer out of utah i i'm actually i filed a bar

00:55:20.940 complaint against him just recently for for this but but these are groups that are designed to intimidate

00:55:29.040 republicans against representing conservatives and the whole idea is it is extraordinarily difficult

00:55:35.980 to get a big law lawyer to represent a republican it's just we can't get those people you can't be a

00:55:43.540 lawyer in a white shoe or a major law firm and represent a republican and this is explicitly advertised

00:55:49.900 within maybe a month after i received this 65 project bar complaint i get a phone call at 7 30 in the morning

00:55:57.860 from the new york times saying we're going to run a story about a group called lawyers defending

00:56:04.520 american democracy that has filed this very very in-depth bar complaint against you would you care

00:56:12.840 to comment that was at 7 30 in the morning by 8 30 in the morning the new york times was running

00:56:17.160 this multiple page complaint uh alleging accusing me of numerous crimes lots of bar violations say

00:56:24.980 very proudly we filed these bar complaints and this is signed and you can imagine i've been an

00:56:29.700 established lawyer my whole life i i revere these institutions they got more signatories on that

00:56:35.220 complaint and it's all online i don't particularly want anyone to read it but it's there the the bar

00:56:39.940 complaint was signed by i think they got more than the 51 former intel officers it was filed by

00:56:45.820 former attorneys general former deans of various law schools multiple past presidents of various bars

00:56:54.540 this who's who of the glitterati of of the legal profession all of whom sign on to this letter

00:57:01.100 like i said law professors former state senators former attorneys general and what was of course

00:57:06.840 most concerning to me was four past presidents of the dc bar had signed on to a letter knowing nothing

00:57:13.060 about me other than what had been fed to them accusing me of crimes to take my license away well

00:57:18.880 for me i imagine now really i have to now defend my bar license before the dc bar against a complaint

00:57:25.720 signed by 60 some luminaries including four past presidents of the very bar that i'm going to be

00:57:31.180 defending myself against it's pretty easy to feel like the entire world is arrayed against you you have

00:57:36.440 no chance whatsoever now i have to say in all fairness i was pleasantly surprised at how professional

00:57:44.360 the dc bar and the georgia bar were they conducted a thorough investigation of me and all of these

00:57:50.260 facts and even in light of all of this happening the dc bar dismissed my cases with no discipline i was

00:57:56.380 shocked because i was too cynical at that point to believe well it's also i mean considering the number

00:58:01.340 of actual criminal lawyers i know you know who behaved in a criminal way i mean most lawyers i know

00:58:07.060 i would classify as criminals and none of them ever get their bar licenses pulled i mean it doesn't

00:58:12.080 this is not a self-policing profession and just it's just not no and but they're and yet but they're

00:58:16.980 going after you but if you represent trump then that that does trigger the enforcement and they are

00:58:21.320 explicitly messaging today as we're talking right now on the 65 project they have proudly we are running

00:58:29.800 this campaign in the swing states geared where big law lawyers and the partners at these law firms and

00:58:36.420 these lawyers are going to see it threatening them do not represent trump in any post-election challenge

00:58:43.480 because we will come after your license and that is clearly an effort to intimidate lawyers against

00:58:50.000 defending anyone's rights clearly president trump's rights it's running in the swing states they're proudly

00:58:55.640 doing it right now you it's not speculation why they're doing it they're they're proudly doing it

00:59:01.400 and it's having the desired effect it's very difficult now to get a lawyer who's willing to do election

00:59:07.920 integrity work for republicans because you know you're putting yourself in the crosshair of this

00:59:13.400 institutional machine now when you know clearly cnn breathlessly reported how i was subject to all of

00:59:23.760 these bar complaints they never reported that i was cleared of those claims or that my bar was never

00:59:31.520 in jeopardy and that i never received they never wanted to report any of those things it's only the

00:59:35.900 story and then move on but for me the damage was incalculable i for me it was impossible to have

00:59:43.440 faith and trust in clients uh and all but it's it's a concerted effort and and it was one that can the cost

00:59:50.240 must have been real too oh a very i mean that as you can imagine i had criminal complaints against

00:59:56.200 me i've had bar complaints against me i have also i also filed my own lawsuit against the federal

01:00:02.680 government for all of these things and it was it's unusual i filed that lawsuit 18 months ago against

01:00:08.540 the federal government it takes a long time to do this i made a lot of factual allegations in that

01:00:14.040 complaint because i knew them to be true in my head i had lived that experience but i had no

01:00:19.800 expectations i was going to be able to prove it it was basically one person's word against

01:00:23.520 an entire industry's word as to what had happened i was shocked at and i filed that complaint anyway

01:00:30.680 i made all of these allegations that i'm describing here i made those allegations in writing 18 months ago

01:00:35.460 well chairman ladder milk i have no idea how doggedly conducted investigation

01:00:41.780 and he actually produced all of the text messages between liz cheney and cassie describing

01:00:48.180 everything that i had put in my complaint i never thought it would happen why would i assume that

01:00:54.120 cassie hutchinson while she's doing this is screenshotting signaled encrypted communications

01:00:58.720 from cass from liz cheney and turning them over to congress like i had no expectation that she would

01:01:04.860 do that but she did well i'm glad she doesn't sound like a genius either but i'm thankful that she did

01:01:09.900 so to liz cheney what crimes do you believe she committed well so what i firmly believe happened

01:01:16.560 and i've filed a bar complaint against liz cheney on this and this is all spelled out the um

01:01:22.240 this prohibition now there if you're a member of congress and you write the laws of the country

01:01:29.780 you have the privilege of shielding yourself from a lot of the consequences of your own actions

01:01:36.280 it's built right into the constitution a speech and debate clause you cannot go after a sitting

01:01:41.680 member of congress for anything they do in furtherance of a legitimate legislative purpose

01:01:46.120 i don't think this was that but put that as it may but it's also very very difficult to go after a

01:01:53.380 member of congress for things that they have done and that's probably appropriate that that's the

01:01:56.780 case but she is a member of the bar and i have black and white evidence that in fact she acted in a way

01:02:03.460 that's contrary to her professional obligations we have filed the america first legal uh it's done a

01:02:10.120 fantastic job it's all up on their website you can read all of it uh articulating all of the various

01:02:16.440 ways that the various lawyers who were involved were clearly violating their fiduciary obligations to

01:02:25.420 the bar but to me it's not even so much that what what i am most concerned with is it was clear to me

01:02:33.920 that it became politically expedient it became necessary in order for the political narrative

01:02:40.900 to be presented to the united states that this witness is presenting this bombshell testimony and

01:02:46.860 is unimpeachable in the face of all of the other evidence that might make it impeachable

01:02:51.960 it became politically expedient to destroy me and the united states congress and all of the mechanisms

01:03:01.260 of this legislative not law enforcement body was working with cnn and bar groups to bring all and

01:03:09.100 all of the media attention that they had the ability to bring and i didn't even know there were allegations

01:03:13.760 all of the might of the federal government was brought to bear to deny me life liberty and property

01:03:20.840 with no due process of law whatsoever even putting aside this constitutional separation of powers that

01:03:27.700 you had talked about before which was the legislative branch is supposed to legislate

01:03:32.200 the department of justice if they had simply just done a referral and of course both cassidy

01:03:38.300 hutchinson testifies that she did a criminal referral liz cheney told abc news that she had done a

01:03:44.800 criminal referral on me fair enough that's the job because the department of justice has 250 years

01:03:51.780 of regulations that are designed to protect the due process rights of the accused the doj will never

01:03:57.860 comment on or confirm that there's an ongoing investigation pre-indictment and that's designed

01:04:04.980 to protect the rights of the innocent of course and those rules are there because the department of

01:04:10.660 justice's job is to enforce the law well congress circumvented all of that with regard to me they

01:04:16.120 went right from we need to present a narrative we need to destroy this person we are going to use and

01:04:24.220 literally they highlighted the day before that this was going to come out they had been rolling out

01:04:30.060 transcripts of all of the various testimony on that tuesday whatever that was the 22nd or whatever

01:04:36.700 of december it was right before christmas it was it was it was horrifying um the the hate mail that

01:04:42.580 one receives on christmas um from i i received um so many beyond like just death threats but so many

01:04:51.060 lawyers emailing me saying you're a disgrace to the legal profession i'm thinking to myself

01:04:56.100 you're a lawyer you just tried convicted executed me without ever hearing from me without affording me

01:05:04.360 any due process or a right to confront my accuser and you're accusing me of being the disgrace to

01:05:09.080 the bar you're the one who is circumventing all of these things that you were trained in law school

01:05:14.420 and that's effectively what congress did as well it was a concerted effort to create a political

01:05:21.080 narrative and i was a very inconvenient truth to that and the fact that the united states congress a

01:05:26.680 legislative body was able to marshal all of those resources in an unconstitutional way

01:05:32.000 to destroy me there's i've been in practice a long time i have a lot of very influential clients

01:05:39.580 i'm a relatively connected person if congress can destroy me at a whim they could do that to anyone

01:05:47.520 and nobody would want to live in a world where either a single member of congress or a single

01:05:53.220 committee of congress could select an individual citizen and say we select this person for execution

01:05:59.440 and we are going to marshal all of the legislative resources we have in conjunction with outside bar

01:06:05.540 groups and in conjunction with media organizations and we are going to create a narrative that is

01:06:09.900 unrecoverable no one would listen to me of course for an entire week after that i couldn't even turn

01:06:17.640 on the television it was panel discussions of well stefan broke the law and he's a lawyer should he be

01:06:24.520 disbarred before he goes to the to jail or should he go to jail and then be disbarred that was the

01:06:28.700 panel discussion the give and take was which should happen mostly cnn uh well i mean certainly msnbc and

01:06:35.440 but it was there was a lot of omission to me i i had fairly good relationships with a lot of reporters

01:06:42.540 a lot of print from new york times and washington post and who knew that this story they knew me

01:06:47.580 but just i can't report my producers will never get this past the editors um i i somewhat

01:06:54.340 tuned out and and you can imagine it's not just me who's going through this i've i've been married

01:07:01.260 for 30 years i have grown children i have children who are just about cassidy's age and i have to sit

01:07:09.540 and and i lived this experience i knew what happened between us imagine the faith that it takes and the

01:07:17.340 loyalty that it takes for my wife and for my children to sit and watch on tv these accusations

01:07:22.640 this is the criminal thing that your dad did or your husband did and and i'll tell you another

01:07:28.020 another anecdote which is i don't know i mean it was one of the sort of most traumatic parts of this

01:07:33.340 whole been there yes traumatic experience so i go through all that and and at the time that all of

01:07:39.220 this is coming out i am an active subject of a criminal investigation i'm clearly anticipating that

01:07:45.040 there are going to be litigation is going to be happening i'm actively pursuing my own lawsuit

01:07:49.820 i can't speak at that point and i know if i do it's my word against an entire world's word and i have

01:07:57.380 no doubt that at the end of our relationship cassidy hutchinson was taping me i have no doubt that

01:08:03.380 they have the ability to pull out snippets now what happened was now that all these text messages

01:08:08.700 come out that completely track everything that i said that the text messages that chairman

01:08:14.100 loudermilk has produced exactly track the conversations that i was having with cassidy

01:08:19.920 where she was saying oh stefan's telling me this it's exactly the things that i was telling her it's

01:08:25.660 in real time it was only later after i'd been fired that all of this changed but this all happens

01:08:32.020 and on and i'll and i'll remember that i said well i'm not going to say anything i'm just going to

01:08:35.880 lay low i'm anonymous i'm just going to lay low fast forward perhaps a year on on the day that my

01:08:42.880 dad died i get a notification cassie hutchinson's coming out with a book and the teaser of the book

01:08:48.160 is explicitly says and she's going to talk about her interplay with the trump lawyer who told her

01:08:53.140 lie so all of a sudden i realize and of course it's on the day that my father passed away i'm going to

01:08:57.920 have to relive this entire experience again and a book tour again and all of this is and i am powerless

01:09:04.620 and i remember that it was extraordinarily traumatic i think her first was she goes on rachel maddow the

01:09:12.620 first time uh is like sort of the first launch of from this from this book tour and i'm sitting there

01:09:18.100 on the sofa with my wife and i know whatever words come out of her mouth with rachel maddow

01:09:26.120 in this live interview i'm going to own my wife is going to own my children are going to own for the

01:09:32.360 rest of their lives whatever allegations are made i'm going to own and she went through and she told

01:09:37.420 the story now at this point this the story that she told in the original september transcript got

01:09:43.900 watered down a little bit for the book and the book was still pretty horrific but it was watered

01:09:47.920 down version of the september but i remember watching this with my wife and and it's just an act

01:09:52.600 of faith for my wife to sit here with me and just stay with me for this but i remember at the end of

01:09:59.880 that first commercial break and i'm sitting on the sofa with my wife watching the rachel maddow thing

01:10:05.080 and rachel maddow says and when we come back from break cassie is going to discuss the seven men who

01:10:10.520 sexually assaulted her in the course of her interaction with the trump world cut to break

01:10:15.700 come back seven men the seven men or five men or whatever it was it's what it's what's on the tape

01:10:20.940 where they say that's the topic of conversation the men who sexually assaulted her and i'm sitting here

01:10:26.340 and i'm looking at my wife and i say i promise you i never touched her i promise you and but but the

01:10:36.380 trauma of it was if she had chosen to identify me as one of the people who had i was defenseless i

01:10:45.160 would have i couldn't have denied it if she had said we'd had a relationship or that i had done

01:10:50.340 something unto i was helpless there was nothing that i could have done unfortunately she never said

01:10:55.080 any of those things she said that about other people but it highlights the trauma of going from

01:11:00.840 a fairly well-respected lawyer who doesn't mind going to the grocery store and being seen by their

01:11:05.560 friends to having everyone did he do these things is he really a criminal and you know all faith and

01:11:11.540 credit to her for sticking by me and to my kids and it's i was somewhat shocking to me the degree to

01:11:17.340 which millennials now they don't have the same reverence for no media no i remember sitting down saying

01:11:23.800 hey some some really bad stuff is going to come out about dad and uh it's not true and i'm and

01:11:28.920 they're like we don't believe that don't worry about it and i remember them making the joke to me

01:11:32.800 it's like we didn't think you were cool enough to get canceled and i was like yeah well i i guess i did

01:11:36.900 get canceled but what what she said is so true that is so true people under 30 wouldn't even occur to

01:11:42.300 them to believe cnn they don't and and that and can i just ask about cassidy hutchinson i'm sure you're

01:11:47.900 prohibited from saying things because i'm sounds like you're still involved um in these suits but

01:11:53.360 what is her motivation do you think so okay now this might shock you it's very possible to take a

01:12:00.640 pretty charitable view of the circumstance that surrounded cassidy and she testifies at length about a

01:12:06.960 very conflicted trouble things that i had no knowledge of at the time when i was representing her

01:12:12.680 but when she gave her september transcript what she describes is this traumatic fear of having been a

01:12:19.580 trump person who thought she was going to go down and work in the office of the former president down

01:12:24.540 in mar-a-lago didn't get that job had difficulty finding a job because anyone who comes with the trump

01:12:30.120 labels it's very difficult time getting a job and then she gets wind that she's going to be receiving

01:12:35.820 this subpoena and i didn't know any of this but she testifies to it that she's traumatized about

01:12:41.040 the consequence of and that she talks about how she went to all these different lawyers trying to

01:12:45.580 find a lawyer who would represent her and how these lawyers for what should have been a one-day

01:12:49.580 deposition were asking a hundred and fifty thousand dollar retain just this traumatic experience of

01:12:55.360 finding a lawyer she's totally alone exactly and she also testifies how she's having these conflicted

01:13:01.900 conversations with her mother with a former member of congress saying don't sell out don't let trump

01:13:08.180 people represent you once you sell your soul to the trump people they're going to own you and she

01:13:14.160 testifies that she brought to our relationship this baggage that she had finally given up she couldn't

01:13:19.800 afford to hire her own lawyer she finally had to sort of let the devil into the house and hire me to

01:13:26.500 represent have me represent her and that she was extraordinarily conflicted she came into our relationship

01:13:33.100 with an adversarial mindset that i was completely unaware of she thought everything she told me

01:13:39.940 i was going to turn right around and tell trump so of course you're going to go and tell that person

01:13:45.080 everything you think trump wants to hear i don't want to testify i just want to be loyal i just want to

01:13:50.420 get through this i just want to have a good job those are all things she said to me and they're all things

01:13:54.380 she put in text messages to all of her friends those text messages are all out there now but it's very

01:13:59.340 easy to see how someone would come into the relationship not trusting their own lawyer right

01:14:04.780 and she testifies of course she testifies numerous times about all the different times she lied to me

01:14:11.420 during the relationship but i was shocked to learn that while i was representing her the degree of the

01:14:17.320 conflict was such that when i would stand up and go to the men's room while we were doing a prep session

01:14:22.140 she testifies she went onto my computer to look up all of my emails to see who my clients are like

01:14:28.700 she was running an investigation on me literally behind my back now i'm not making that up that's

01:14:34.420 in her testimony i had no knowledge that there was this adversary relationship and for me

01:14:40.540 she comes in my job like i had for numerous other people a single message i come in i tell what i know

01:14:47.540 i don't speculate every lawyer gives the same advice anyone who's ever been deposed gets the same advice

01:14:53.100 your job is to tell the facts as you know you don't speculate you don't guess you wait for the

01:14:58.940 next question to be asked you're not to go and find new facts you wait for their question you answer

01:15:05.900 honestly that question you wait for the next question if you don't know the answer to a question it's

01:15:10.640 perfectly appropriate to say i don't know the answer to that question every lawyer gives some version

01:15:16.840 of that admonition of course just like i did but if you come into a relationship with this hostile

01:15:22.860 mindset that this person is not my lawyer this person is somebody else's lawyer and i'm forced

01:15:28.760 to work with them when the lawyer gives that same admonition to say i don't want you to go and seek

01:15:34.560 out facts i literally said to her because she wanted to like put together calendars she wanted to do

01:15:39.200 internet research i literally said ironically it's not your job to write the book on january 6th i literally

01:15:45.520 said that to her i said they're going to interview thousands of witnesses and those thousands of

01:15:50.320 witnesses are all going to tell their version of facts and create the mosaic you only tell the facts

01:15:55.160 that you know you don't guess but if you are coming in to say expecting to be misled in furtherance

01:16:02.800 of somebody else's objective and you're a 25 year old who's never been through this i guess it's

01:16:08.780 possible that you could feel like oh he's wink wink telling me well exactly what to do exactly so it's

01:16:14.900 possible to now clearly and and when you look at the text messages between cassidy and elissa as

01:16:22.000 they're describing the back channel all of the things that chairman loudermilk has now uncovered

01:16:26.320 you can see they're having that exact conversation stefan says well if they're going to bring you in for

01:16:33.160 a third interview we can't make it look like you're eager to do a third you'll never get a job so

01:16:37.880 stefan's going to tell dan george we're only going to comply with subpoena we're ultimately going to

01:16:43.540 comply but i want you to have a subpoena so you can tell people later you went they described this

01:16:48.420 whole conversation entirely accurately those were the conversations we were having sometime between

01:16:54.800 that june 6th when all these text messages happened june 8th or 9th whenever i got fired

01:16:59.740 and thereafter things became dramatically different by september she was giving testimony to liz cheney

01:17:07.680 accusing me of crimes and accusing me of telling her to lie things that just as chairman loudermilk

01:17:13.960 just don't hold up right so she's weak and afraid and so she winds up in which rachel maddow here's

01:17:19.160 something you may not have known back in 2015 the congress of the united states repealed something

01:17:23.860 called the country of origin labeling act now why is this relevant to you well it means among other

01:17:30.020 things that when you buy beef at the supermarket that says made in the usa it may not actually be in

01:17:35.980 fact it could be likely is from a foreign country it means that repackaging foreign meat can be enough

01:17:44.880 to get the made in usa designation it's a lie it's an absolute lie most people don't even know what's

01:17:49.340 happening so how can you be sure that the meat you're eating is from the united states and has been

01:17:54.280 raised with the highest quality standards and is the tastiest it's truly made here well it's simple

01:17:59.220 you can go to our friends at meriwether farms meriwether farms is an american small business it's based

01:18:04.420 in riverton wyoming we know the people who run it and they're great people and they have great meat

01:18:09.320 they ship the highest quality meat raised free from growth hormones and antibiotics directly to

01:18:15.200 your doorstep it's delicious we eat it a lot including at this table these are americans these

01:18:20.940 are american-made products and because they're cutting out the grocery store middlemen their prices

01:18:24.820 are actually cheaper 10 to 30 percent cheaper for the best meat they are the real deal again we eat

01:18:30.020 that meat at this table from riverton wyoming they're the best meriwetherfarms.com use the

01:18:35.860 discount code tcn24 and you get an extra 10 off again that's meriwetherfarms m-e-r-i-w-e-t-h-e-r

01:18:45.460 farms.com it's worth it

01:19:00.020 okay so your experience your experience suggests such a level of sinister corruption that it's it's

01:19:10.720 kind of it's going to be thinking about this all week um but let's zoom out a little bit and try to

01:19:15.580 understand what this kind of behavior from liz cheney and the professional staff on the committee

01:19:20.080 means for the investigation itself i'm now convinced that they had no interest in finding out what

01:19:26.620 happened on sip on september september january 6th september 11th all these dates to keep track of

01:19:33.420 um we don't have you know they they're hiding the videos they can't they won't answer basic

01:19:38.420 questions about how many undercover law enforcement were there on that day etc etc etc but just

01:19:42.380 to your conclusions tell me what they are do you think this was a good faith effort to find out what

01:19:46.780 happened that day well no uh and and i'm guided to a great extent by again chairman ladder milk

01:19:53.860 the the whole ladder milk the house admin oversight committee investigation to some extent and he'll

01:20:01.100 have to speak for himself i might have started some of that in that when all these allegations came out

01:20:06.640 about me alleging that when i was representing cassidy i was doing all of these coaching it i said well

01:20:12.600 there's videotape all i need to do is get the videotape and show it and that will exonerate me

01:20:17.600 and i was having trouble getting that videotape so i called up chairman ladder milk i said look

01:20:22.960 i just need some help on this there are documents that i need for a matter that's personal to me that

01:20:28.360 i'm working on can you get me the videotapes of my representation of cassie because that will

01:20:34.040 to my extent to a large extent vindicate me and he's okay sure we'll get that and he realized he's like

01:20:39.980 they're all destroyed like he realized not only were the documents these videotapes all destroyed and

01:20:46.080 this is not speculation he has letters from benny thompson saying we destroyed the videotapes

01:20:52.980 because we got advice we didn't have to keep videotapes of what of all the witnesses who were

01:20:58.060 deposed right so when i was sitting next to all of the witnesses who provided why would you destroy

01:21:04.060 those videotapes well you would wonder why they're not what the committee says well we've saved the

01:21:09.500 transcript so we didn't need to keep the video well that was it expensive to keep video exactly the

01:21:14.640 opposite in fact as a as a legal matter more technical it's the videotape that's the evidence

01:21:20.800 the transcripts just simply an aid to that because lots of so they destroyed all the evidence well

01:21:25.460 that's what chairman ladder milk has made his mission and he has been dogged in that and it is

01:21:29.240 chairman ladder milk if i can speak for him firm conclusion that in fact the evidence was

01:21:35.280 man chairman louder milk i mean the house is in republican hands they have a speaker who's third from

01:21:40.460 the presidency his name is mike johnson louisiana he could instantly reveal all of this stuff to the

01:21:47.220 public to whom it belongs including the many tens of thousands of hours of videotape from january 6th

01:21:53.220 but they're not doing that why is speaker johnson allowing this stuff to remain secret at the very

01:22:01.060 moment when kamala harris and the rest of the democratic party is campaigning for president on

01:22:05.460 lies about january 6th why not release it all and let the public know it's their house it's their

01:22:11.080 property they own it they own this government i'm totally confused as to why speaker mike johnson is

01:22:16.280 doing that yeah well i mean that's perhaps an issue above my pay grade but at the same time things

01:22:21.700 were destroyed in fact as i recall perhaps even this is insane your offices had an opportunity to look

01:22:27.640 at a lot of the videotape and a lot of the videotape but you know one tenth of one percent of the

01:22:31.980 existing classified videotape and it showed that there was peace inside the capitol and that

01:22:38.200 uniformed law enforcement were allowing people into the senate chamber at the same moment they're

01:22:42.880 telling us it's an insurrection so like it the videotape that we got which is a tiny percentage

01:22:48.040 of the existing classified videotape showed that their story about january 6th is a complete lie it's

01:22:53.600 totally made up yeah well i heard a rumor and you can tell me if it's not true that when some of your

01:22:58.300 producers first started looking through the videotape there were all sorts of annotations

01:23:02.100 and there were all sorts of cross references to allow it to be searched nobody knew that it was

01:23:06.780 someone affiliated with you was looking at it and that then subsequently when it was learned that

01:23:11.980 perhaps an outside force associated with you was looking at the videotape all those annotations

01:23:15.860 disappeared yes that might be false but that's what i heard that's correct and i got fired uh shortly

01:23:20.140 after um and was attacked you know by people i i worked with at fox news for daring to air

01:23:26.060 videotape that belongs to the public that shows an unexpurgated account of what actually happened so

01:23:32.240 like the the complicity of institutions in washington and maintaining the lie that january 6th was the

01:23:38.020 insurrection by trumpists is complete like everyone was involved in the conspiracy actually from what i

01:23:43.500 can tell yeah i think one of the lessons to take from this is that never again should there be a

01:23:49.440 congressional committee that's not bipartisan now if there was an error that was made the fact you

01:23:54.280 cannot have congress running a what is quasi criminal investigation like this ever again did we ever

01:24:01.420 find out how many um undercover law enforcement agents were at january 6th do we know that i i don't know

01:24:07.320 i again i'm just reading the newspaper like everyone else at this point on on those issues that's a core

01:24:11.760 question though like if we're trying to understand what happened just as an attorney who was involved

01:24:16.500 and i and i know you were you know involved in trying to help witnesses you know um but

01:24:23.320 big picture why wouldn't the public be allowed to know that yeah no clearly that clearly anything

01:24:30.240 that's conducted in the name of the people belongs to the people just like the building in which that

01:24:34.780 investigation is conducted oh the people's house yeah exactly and the investigation belongs and i mean

01:24:39.660 again i don't know for sure but certainly what i had heard was that as congress was turning over

01:24:45.640 there were a number of documents that were in the possession of congress that were going to be

01:24:52.160 shipped off to the archives but they knew that when the new incoming speaker mccarthy took power that he

01:24:58.080 was just going to call those documents back from the archives and so what happened and again i don't know

01:25:03.620 this firsthand but what i'd heard was that a lot of these documents were then shipped over to the

01:25:07.800 executive branch to allow the executive branch to give them to the archives so that when mccarthy

01:25:13.180 comes into power and says hey i want my documents back the archivist says no no this came from the

01:25:18.200 executive branch you have no power you don't get these documents we gave them all over to secret

01:25:22.060 service or whomever and that that's been really thwarting congressional inquiry into it's so corrupt

01:25:27.680 it's hard to believe this is our government it's it certainly had it certainly had a corrupting

01:25:34.280 impact on on me in terms of what happened how government abused power in a way that should not

01:25:40.980 happen but it also you cannot have an ostensible truth-finding organized operation that has a political

01:25:47.920 objective the two are not compatible if you're going to be searching for the truth it cannot be

01:25:53.040 well and also i mean look the truth is the capitol hill police used deadly force against an unarmed

01:25:59.800 woman on january 6th there was never any investigation into why they murdered ashley

01:26:04.600 babbitt which they did um michael bird uh who had demonstrated reckless behavior with a loaded firearm

01:26:10.880 leaving a loaded glock in the men's room of the capitol he murdered murdered ashley babbitt that's my view

01:26:17.320 but we we can't speak authoritatively because there was no investigation into shooting an unarmed

01:26:23.700 woman in the capitol um the whole thing like that's insane were there any republicans do you know

01:26:32.480 in the congress who like demanded an answer to these questions it doesn't seem like there were

01:26:39.260 it seems bipartisan right it's been hard pressed and i know as part of my efforts i i was seek i said

01:26:46.880 well i want to have all the internal staff emails let me see the emails that were going on while all

01:26:53.740 of the things that i was interested in were happening and i'm getting a lot of resistance

01:26:58.300 well we really don't want to we don't think it's appropriate to turn over staff emails it's like

01:27:03.480 why it we're the public if there were emails about me that were being sent by official staff there

01:27:10.060 shouldn't be some proprietary reason or there shouldn't be some queensberry rules that says well

01:27:15.500 we don't think it's couth for us to be turning over the private emails of our staffers well when i was

01:27:22.040 working in the white house every single document that we it was all presidential records everything

01:27:27.120 was searchable everything can be has obligated to be turned over why is congress not subject to those

01:27:33.200 same rules why why do we not have that same transparency why are we clinging to some esoteric notion

01:27:41.080 that well it just wouldn't be gentlemanly or it wouldn't be couth for us to reveal staff emails

01:27:47.640 uh because then maybe they might do that to us i was like no how about you guys only do things in

01:27:53.420 the name of the people that you're willing to stand behind how about that being the rule but that doesn't

01:27:58.700 seem to be so how is this um we're just talking about this off camera but maybe you would like to

01:28:04.820 talk about it on camera as the product of washington son of someone who worked for the government i mean

01:28:09.680 exactly the same position um how has this changed your view of how the city operates in its institutions

01:28:15.920 yeah well i mean it's it's shocking of course sort of the psychic break of all of that as we had talked

01:28:20.900 we had almost the same my upbringing washington dc private schools everyone who was my friend were

01:28:26.880 the children of people who were either in the private sector or public sector working in these revered

01:28:33.060 institutions and i grew up and until extremely recently had nothing but the highest respect for

01:28:38.820 our agencies and the media i mean as i said if if walter cronkite said it was true if the state

01:28:45.120 what year in high school were you i was class of 1984 so i'm a little older than you three years and

01:28:50.040 but same world same exact world all of my friends and grew up having a dad who was from that world

01:28:55.780 doing work that i really respected that was what i believed and and even while working in the white house

01:29:03.060 never had a concept that there was any sort of conflict between the institutional sort of

01:29:11.680 intelligence world and us in the white house one of my jobs as i said i was the compliance person when

01:29:17.820 i came in and so we did all of the onboarding i brought all of these folks in and it was my job

01:29:23.420 to do here the rules of washington briefing for all of the white house staff well i was also the

01:29:29.060 adjunct to the national security council so it's sort of like a intel arm advisors to the president

01:29:35.960 which are career staffers primarily and i thought well we're all on the same team now trump we've just

01:29:41.680 come in i had no idea that comey was having interviews with mike flynn you know at the same

01:29:47.540 time i had no idea this was happening but i thought but we're all on the same team let me just invite

01:29:53.040 all of the nsc folks in for the same briefing that i'm doing for the staff because we're all on the same

01:29:58.160 team and i just naively it's only been eight years but it's it seems crazy to even think something

01:30:03.520 naive and so literally i do these briefings and i get phone calls two days later from the washington

01:30:09.340 post saying we have three people who are in your briefing who all said you said x and that this is

01:30:15.520 this horrible thing for for john i said that's a not true why would three people randomly select

01:30:23.220 you washington post reporter to tell the exact same story to this kind of sounds like an op against

01:30:28.920 the trump administration it was going to highlight it was something that was not going to paint trump

01:30:33.380 in a fair light that the ethics lawyer had said whatever the rules were and that's when i realized

01:30:38.020 we're not all on the same team here that there's this operation that's going on and and there's a real

01:30:45.680 sort of psychic disconnect for me because i had tremendous respect for these and i had tremendous

01:30:52.840 respect for the fbi and the doj and i and i have to say in all candor with respect to me as far as i can

01:30:59.160 tell they've they've been honorable and everything they've done with respect to me but what you see on

01:31:04.860 tv um there's a lack of trust and my children my children's friends have zero institutional faith in

01:31:13.780 these organizations that i grew up revering and one of the things did your children grow up in the

01:31:18.680 area dc uh no they were outside of the dc bubble i i left dc you know sometime after i after i graduated

01:31:28.660 high school but still sort of keep up and i practice out of dc that's where i live i go there

01:31:32.600 that's that's where i work that's my life but it's a much different core philosophy it's a different view

01:31:39.920 of how these institutions operate and one of the things that if trump were to win that really needs

01:31:45.720 to happen is we need to restore these institutions the faith in these institutions that if state

01:31:52.020 department is doing something if the intel agencies are doing something that they're doing in the

01:31:56.580 interest of the public we can't have the 51 intel officers suppressing we can't have that happening

01:32:03.880 anymore i mean that's one of the things that just you know for me what's changed me is i'm a lawyer

01:32:10.460 the legal institution is is of prime importance to me we cannot be subjecting lawyers to attack because

01:32:19.480 of who they represent that's undemocratic that's unconstitutional we can't have a philosophy where

01:32:25.000 you kill all of the lawyers for one side this whole notion of legal warfare that we are going to

01:32:30.420 intimidate people against representing disfavored political parties under threat of disbarment that

01:32:37.700 has to change and that's something that i'm pretty passionate about and that's something that's sort of

01:32:42.440 my life mission now to the extent i'm surviving all of this uh we just have to fix these institutions

01:32:49.920 we have to return them to what they had so you've decided to fight back i i know a bunch of other

01:32:55.200 lawyers who i don't think i know anyone who's uh quite been subjected to what you went through but

01:33:01.300 um i know a bunch of people have been hassled and most of them decided i just i just want to get away

01:33:06.020 from this i don't want anything to do with this it doesn't help me in any way it doesn't help my kids

01:33:10.860 my wife doesn't care for it you know etc you've decided to fight um what are you going to be doing

01:33:17.160 to fix this system so i mean you are the first person who's wanted to hear my story so just

01:33:24.620 getting the facts out i mean this has been two years and i have spoken to so many reporters and i

01:33:29.660 said you don't have to believe a word i say just read the transcript it's all sitting right there

01:33:34.460 nobody wants to touch it nobody's ever wanted to report it well in the words of cnn it's not newsworthy

01:33:39.540 it's not newsworthy exactly and so getting the word out is important but um i've been really blessed to

01:33:45.920 be working with the america first legal which are they recognize we can't have a functioning democracy

01:33:51.320 if lawyers are operating under this culture of fear i think you're the ones who coined the phrase

01:33:55.560 it's it's a culture of fear that nobody wants to raise their head above the waterline for fear that

01:34:02.000 they're going to be the one who get popped off and it's very disconcerting knowing that we have an

01:34:09.200 election coming up where everyone is determined to have rule of law enforced and the only way rule of

01:34:14.900 law is enforced and people have faith in democracy faith in the integrity of our elections is if they

01:34:19.700 know that there's going to be true accountability on both sides of the aisle that the rules are going

01:34:24.980 to be followed and you cannot have rules in democracy being followed unless you have lawyers to help

01:34:30.080 navigate and today as we speak there's an active ongoing effort to intimidate republican lawyers

01:34:36.840 from engaging in any of this conduct for fear of getting disbarred for fear of getting kicked out of

01:34:42.100 their law firms for fear of being banished from polite society in the legal circles i mean i certainly

01:34:47.680 received a bar complaint by 60 some prominent members of the bar and prominent members of legal

01:34:54.460 academia have you ever seen any of them since oh i've never met any of them ever i mean this this was

01:35:00.960 no but but i am now filing bar complaints um i'm doing what little i can do to create some

01:35:08.740 accountability and transparency clearly if it's just me i will be squished again as quickly and easily as

01:35:14.740 i was squished the first time but i have a little window to maybe try to create some awareness that we

01:35:20.880 can't go on as a society where not everybody has the right to effective lawyers and i have to say

01:35:26.340 one of the things that's been really gratifying of this whole experience i mean i have a lot of

01:35:30.520 clients and a lot of clients who i represent would have had every opportunity to distance themselves

01:35:37.960 from me for their own personal gain i mean i've i've represented newton calista gingrich

01:35:43.440 since 1998 i've represented a number senator kelly leffler herschel walker a lot of a lot of

01:35:51.660 corporate groups i won't name because if i name them that'll cause them harm just the fact that

01:35:55.160 they're associated with me but they could have left me out of political experience and you learn

01:35:59.720 who your friends are none of them did they stuck with me said we know you we know your core even

01:36:04.880 though there's a there's a risk to us in associating with you as our lawyer we're going to stand by you

01:36:10.100 now there are a lot of people who didn't do that a lot of people said this is you're too hot we're

01:36:14.420 going to termin our relationship with you but the one gratifying thing out of all is you learn who

01:36:19.200 your friends are you learn who will stick with you through thick and thin and like i said it

01:36:23.900 you you can't go through something like this without learning how strong your relationship

01:36:28.600 is with your spouse how strong your relationship is with your children how strong your relationship

01:36:32.340 is with your god amen like if we didn't have those pillars and if those pillars weren't tested every

01:36:38.380 now and then you never know how strong they are so the one good thing that comes out of this

01:36:42.680 is that those pillars of faith and family and professional relationships have been stress test for me

01:36:49.180 to an extent that i wouldn't wish on anyone but withstood that now we'll see what the repercussions

01:36:55.240 are of this but that said that's my mission now is if i can sort of contribute back to

01:37:01.620 rebalancing our legal institution or having some small role in rebalancing our government institutions

01:37:09.060 to the respect that they used to have i think that's a pretty noble mission at least it makes what

01:37:14.060 i went through potentially worth it if you can say that well i do think i mean i can relate to a lot

01:37:19.280 of what you're saying um i can empathize and i i do think learning who your friends are and finding

01:37:25.480 out that your family really does love you no matter what i mean that is a massive upside like that's a

01:37:31.700 beautiful thing i personally feel privileged to have gone through events that have proved that everyone

01:37:38.200 i love really loves me back i know that for a fact right i'm not guessing right not just hoping

01:37:42.960 like they had an opportunity yes they had an opportunity to go the other way no and they chose not to

01:37:48.160 take that i mean i'll speak for myself i haven't gone through anything like you've gone through but

01:37:51.300 you know i'm knocked around a little bit it's well worth it right just to find out that your kids

01:37:55.720 really do love you you know it's pretty great well my mission in life is to make this worth it

01:37:58.980 and i'm still figuring that path so last question what do you think what do you think when

01:38:03.240 you know you flip on the tube and you see liz cheney and cassidy hutchinson campaigning with

01:38:10.440 kamala harris yeah well i mean what's what's particularly painful for me is that the the

01:38:18.120 basis of that conversation is to highlight the importance of ethics and the importance of

01:38:23.140 government norms like that's the message that's being conveyed it's like we're the party that reveres

01:38:28.940 ethical behavior and by us being here together we show which side we're on um that's a very tough

01:38:36.800 message for me to take it's so nuts i mean i just think big picture there's no place more unethical

01:38:44.500 than washington i mean they never apologized for the iraq war you know it's like that's not hard

01:38:50.240 you know if you can't even apologize for the iraq war then you know you're truly rotten and you know

01:38:55.560 that you are does it drive you crazy when you see them well sure because this is all fairly post

01:39:01.220 traumatic stress disorder for me i mean everything is i mean obviously my life has changed my psychology

01:39:06.700 has changed i am not the same person i was i am more difficult to be around i i do not trust clients

01:39:13.080 i am a very hard person to talk to at times because of this balance to me your kind that's it's being in

01:39:20.040 your presence uh i'm happy to do but it's it's very difficult um it's very very difficult to trust

01:39:26.280 clients um but it is one of those things where you have to make good come of bad things you have to

01:39:33.380 and that's my mission don't you find that there you know there are a lot of people who will betray

01:39:39.480 you and who are cruel and hollow and serving evil but they're also some just absolutely wonderful

01:39:45.520 people and don't you see them more clearly yeah now than you did before yeah well and you learn and

01:39:50.700 i mean clearly it's easy for someone to feel sorry for themselves it's easy for me to feel sorry but

01:39:56.000 there are people in prison right now who did nothing more than walk through escorted through the grounds

01:40:02.740 of the capital there are people who are subjected to much worse than what i've been subjected to

01:40:07.500 and so you have to have a perspective in a lot of respects i'm very fortunate i i have resources i have

01:40:14.040 means i have contacts i have very good friends who have the ability to make things happen i'm not

01:40:19.460 helpless in all of this and this all happened to me it makes me much more concerned for people who

01:40:24.900 don't have access to all of those resources and it's my mission in life like it's a lot of people's

01:40:30.840 mission in life to take care of those people they can't do this i can have some small say in that and

01:40:36.400 that's what i'm gonna do bless you thank you for telling your story i really appreciate it thank you

01:40:40.560 for having me i'm really grateful for oh my gosh it's i can't say it enough it's a corrupt system

01:40:45.380 that has no claim on our allegiance at all that's my view thank you thank you

01:40:50.720 thanks for listening to tucker carlson show if you enjoyed it you can go to tucker carlson.com

01:40:56.980 to see everything that we have made the complete library tucker carlson.com

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The Tucker Carlson Show - November 02, 2024

Stefan Passantino： Liz Cheney’s J6 Crimes & Mission to Destroy Any Lawyer Who Dares Represent Trump

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