The Tucker Carlson Show - The Occult, Kabbalah, the Antichrist’s Newest Manifestation, and How to Avoid the Mark of the Beast

00:00:00.000 I remember the first time somebody said to me during an interview that something or other was

00:00:04.780 demonic, used the word demonic. I cannot have been more than six years ago when I was completely

00:00:09.420 shocked that someone would use that term because it's not a political term. It doesn't even

00:00:14.480 describe like any human social interaction. It's a spiritual term. And I just was not used to people

00:00:20.000 using spiritual terms to describe social movements or political developments or whatever. But I think

00:00:24.820 in that time, in the last six years, things have really changed. And I hear it all the time. It's

00:00:29.660 demonic. They're demons. There is this sense that there's a spiritual underpinning, that there's

00:00:35.420 something going on beneath the surface in American society and in the world that's affecting outcomes

00:00:41.500 and affecting populations. And like there's spiritual war in progress. You, and I hope you'll

00:00:47.240 explain this and I'll get out of the way in a second, but you kind of stumbled into an extended

00:00:53.140 research project on this topic. Are there actual occult connections to Hollywood, to political

00:01:03.360 figures, to technological advances, to the leaders of our society? Are some of them actually practicing

00:01:09.560 occult religion? Yeah, Tucker, it's about as weird as you said. Some would say, I think we're going to find

00:01:16.840 out even weirder. So how did you, I mean, you're not a theologian that I'm aware of.

00:01:42.560 Um, no. And if I was, I was a very amateur theologian. No, I'm not, I'm not a scholar as

00:01:46.420 many will find out about. But how did you wind up coming to the conclusion that, you know, the

00:01:54.220 people who, some of the people who helped shape our culture or build our technology were practicing

00:01:59.640 occult, literally practicing occult religion? I'll tell you. Well, you know, I was working on a

00:02:04.100 television show, you know, trying to build out this show. I, I should back up. I come from a

00:02:08.260 Hollywood family, Tucker. Um, uh, my grandfather was the actor, uh, Robert Conrad. If you've, uh,

00:02:13.640 some of your listeners, Wild, Wild West, Black Sheep Squadron, you go way back, uh, Hawaiian Eye.

00:02:18.480 Um, my other grandfather, Harry Flynn was a publicist in the, uh, you know, for decades on

00:02:22.820 The Monkees, Bewitched, I Dream of Jeannie, two occult shows, Bewitched and I Dream of Jeannie. Um,

00:02:27.380 maybe it starts there. Um, so, um, I mean, not unlike your own father working in journalism as a boy,

00:02:32.860 one of the first things you learn when you have parents who work in media or entertainment,

00:02:37.500 you learn that things, the people magazine version of reality is not the truth,

00:02:42.600 that there, there is a difference. That is, that is accurate. So, so, I mean,

00:02:46.760 we're not getting into occultism yet, but we're getting into the fact that as a boy,

00:02:49.300 you learn that the way things are presented, not always conspiratorial, but you're always being

00:02:54.380 shown a facade usually from the mainstream. I can't believe I'm saying mainstream media already

00:02:59.180 a minute into this, but, um, you know, things are, are not what they seem. So as a boy,

00:03:03.940 um, I was always told and shown that. So years later, um, you know, I was taken to Hollywood,

00:03:09.380 these, um, these various, uh, show concepts. And one of them, Tucker, I was working on

00:03:12.860 was about, um, when actors first break into the business, you know, where do they live? How do

00:03:17.120 their lives go? It was a very wholesome show about the origins of actors and show business,

00:03:21.540 but it was getting, you come to LA from Nebraska. What happens next? How does this work?

00:03:25.080 But that gets into a basic thing. You probably had this as a boy yourself,

00:03:27.400 but wanting to know how does things, how do things work? You've seen the facade. So what's

00:03:30.920 the truth? You know, how, how, how, how does any show work? How are stars made? So I was working

00:03:36.260 on this show and, you know, um, COVID happened. Um, Hollywood kept lighting itself on fire. I was,

00:03:41.860 I sold it to, um, Buzzfeed and then, um, while they're drawing up the contract, uh, Buzzfeed went

00:03:46.080 out of business. So it was, it was a curse. It's a volatile moment. Yeah. It was, it was a curse show.

00:03:50.720 The wholesome one was cursed. So at some point in 2022, I'd always had a dream project of mine. Um,

00:03:56.040 just a casual interest, um, of, of doing a show about rock and the occult, about the secret history

00:04:02.840 of, um, all these things that everyone's people are generally interested in, but there's never been

00:04:06.700 a kind of scholarly, uh, in-depth hearing from everybody, not too biased take on of, you know,

00:04:13.520 Jimmy Page being into Aleister Crowley, Aleister Crowley being on the Beatles albums, things that,

00:04:18.640 you know, maybe we can dispel some myths, but also there's always interesting, actual weird stuff

00:04:22.940 going on. Yeah. So I wanted to take that show out and it became kind of, not all of this is a figment

00:04:28.000 of your imagination. Oh, no, no, no. It was not as, as, uh, as I learned the, uh, I don't want to say

00:04:32.600 the hard way, but no things. Yeah. So that, that was the basis of it of me wanting to, uh, doing

00:04:37.860 research for this, this show, which was tentatively titled, uh, uh, running with the devil. And I brought

00:04:43.180 in a legendary rock critic, Stephen Thomas Erlewine from all music is a colleague, Ned Raggett. Um,

00:04:49.660 and then the creators of the Osbournes, the recently departed Ozzy Osbourne, uh, Sue Kalinsky

00:04:54.060 and Greg Johnson. So I brought in legit people. I brought in some of the best critics we have in

00:04:58.680 rock to do a show that would, you know, we'd have, um, we'd have Christians and pastors. We'd have

00:05:03.540 a cultist. One of my experts on the show was this guy, uh, uh, Mitch Horowitz, who I think you knew,

00:05:08.780 I forget if it was at Salon or, uh, former editor of mine. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Very nice guy.

00:05:13.020 Well, he's, he's, he's, he was an, uh, he became an expert on the occult. Um, I talked to him, a very

00:05:16.980 nice guy. He's a, I think he's a self-described Satanist, you know, you know, that was after I

00:05:21.800 knew him, but yeah, we got to clarify that, you know? Yeah. Uh, but, um, but, uh, so, so while

00:05:26.800 doing this show, it's all a long way to say, while doing, uh, creating the show and taking it around

00:05:30.880 town, um, you know, I, I'm, you know, another guy that was being influenced, Gary Lockman, this occult

00:05:35.300 historian, a friend of mine, uh, while doing this show and trying to get it created, um, I would tell

00:05:41.320 people I know in tech, cause I know a lot of people in different circles. That's if I want

00:05:44.840 superpowers, I know a lot of different people and have a lot of strange hobbies and interests that

00:05:48.800 kind of the Venn diagrams for unique to me. So while creating this show, the people in tech and

00:05:53.560 the people, um, some of you know, in Silicon Valley or politics, they go, that's a great concept for a

00:05:57.800 show. And then they'd say, you know, there's some of the stuff going on in Silicon Valley, you know,

00:06:01.580 there, there, there are some weird kind of Alistair Crowley cults there, or, um, you know,

00:06:06.800 while researching, um, one of the guys we'll talk about, Nick Land, uh, you know, who's huge

00:06:12.080 in Silicon Valley, his influences were identical with some of the hardcore industrial music, goth

00:06:18.700 music, psychedelic guys in the eighties, uh, guys that I was reaching, researching, cause this is

00:06:24.160 hardcore occult stuff. So for me, Tucker, at some point I was like, and it kept occurring to me,

00:06:29.600 why, when I'm researching this show and also hearing about what's going on in Silicon Valley

00:06:34.840 with weird stuff, why is it, why am I hearing about the same stuff? And why are these people,

00:06:41.320 again, you think of Silicon Valley, you think of the modern, you know, elite as being, um,

00:06:46.080 secularists, rationalists, uh, people who have a, you know, no religion for me, thank you,

00:06:51.100 attitude towards stuff. Why are they into, uh, the same stuff that, you know, Kenneth Grant,

00:06:57.160 uh, Genesis P. Orridge was into, Brian Geist and William S. Burroughs. Why are they into the same weird

00:07:02.360 stuff? So that was, to answer your question, that was the, that was the entry point into this for me

00:07:06.120 is having researched the show and being such a nerd about it. I knew it forwards and backwards that when

00:07:10.820 I started to get into the tech stuff, I realized I was researching the same thing.

00:07:16.220 It's interesting. So here's the distinction that I make in my mind. Um, and it's between people who

00:07:21.500 are participating in occult practices and have no idea that they are, you know, people who are,

00:07:26.820 you know, participating in abortion and don't see it, don't understand it as what it is,

00:07:31.160 which is a child sacrifice ritual as old as Canaan, um, who are using hallucinogenic drugs,

00:07:37.600 which are clearly a portal for demonic possession. Sure. Um, really quick, the word witchcraft,

00:07:43.940 uh, thinking in Greek, it's pharmakai, I think it is. So there's always a natural link between,

00:07:48.860 uh, putting yourself, they would say ecstatic states or altered states. Uh, that's always been

00:07:55.040 the, uh, the, I mean, there's a kind of lurid story behind the witch's broom in terms of what

00:07:59.100 she's doing to work herself up into that state, but yeah, it's all about.

00:08:02.440 But she's doing it intentionally. I guess that's the distinction that I would make in a secular

00:08:06.340 country, a free to be you and me country. There are a lot of people who are doing things because

00:08:10.900 they're fun or interesting or everyone around them is doing them and they don't understand the

00:08:15.600 spiritual consequences. But then there's another category in this is, this is the dividing line in

00:08:19.360 my head. There's a category of people who are seeking power from supernatural forces that they

00:08:26.680 acknowledge are absolutely real. Right. Right. And they're practicing an occult religion and they're

00:08:30.880 doing it with self-awareness. Right. Right. Right. And I always felt like there weren't that many of

00:08:35.280 those, but what I've learned from you from our extensive text exchanges over the past year

00:08:40.100 is that, um, there are actually some of those, quite a few of those. Well, totally. I mean,

00:08:45.620 look at it a couple of ways. Among other things, Tucker, we're living through, um, uh, an explosion

00:08:50.180 in, um, I mean, occult's a big, broad term. Yes. Um, what does it, can we define it? I mean,

00:08:56.180 it technically means the hidden, but, um, there's a book written by these guys that they ran in a

00:09:01.560 cold bookstore in New York in the seventies. It's called bull from heaven or something like that.

00:09:05.120 But one of their definitions, it had to do with, uh, new, elements of new age philosophy and

00:09:10.620 neo-pagan thinking, I think was part of their definition, but that, but it got broadened out

00:09:16.620 a bit. A cult can also just mean interest in new age, which accounts for like 80% of Americans,

00:09:21.960 whether it's astrology, uh, whether it's the concept of manifesting, which is, um, you know,

00:09:27.740 the law of attraction type stuff, that stuff is huge. And as I've talked with you about,

00:09:31.720 it's also huge on the right in terms of Maha, make America healthy again. Um, these ideas that

00:09:37.540 we don't think of as being too goth or too occult or too, um, out of the mainstream have

00:09:42.360 become incredibly mainstreamed over the last decades. Uh, but I mean, even going back to

00:09:46.720 19th century America, they were there and even 18th, but since the sixties, uh, they've

00:09:51.120 exploded, but they've become so ingrained in our lives. We don't typically notice, uh, their

00:09:56.260 origins. We don't see them as a cult. No, no. But we're all, we're also living through a

00:10:00.520 goth explosion. I mean, I mean, I know you're not a huge, uh, you sit in front of the TV and watch

00:10:05.560 Netflix guy, but like shows like Wednesday, uh, stranger things, uh, horror is, you know,

00:10:12.400 in terms of box office, maybe not in terms of creativity, it's as big as it's ever been,

00:10:16.180 you know, Halloween. Oh yeah. Halloween. Uh, some people should half joke that Halloween

00:10:20.980 will be on pace to overtake Christmas at some point, just because it's like, it's become

00:10:24.740 like a year round thing. Halloween. Yeah. Halloween's huge. Yeah. Every year it gets bigger.

00:10:29.700 So there's, there's an element of this Tucker where once, once you. I hate to admit,

00:10:35.440 in public how out of it I am, but I had no idea. This is the first time. Oh yeah. No,

00:10:38.840 no. Goth is huge. I mean, even singers like Billie Eilish and stuff. Goth is, is huge.

00:10:44.540 Because it leads to happiness. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Happiness. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

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00:14:13.860 most to you. Demand the best. Liberty Safe. It's a huge thing. So it's one of those things that once

00:14:19.000 you alert someone to how popular something is, it's like learning a new word, where you're like,

00:14:23.680 I've never heard this word in my life. And the next week, all you hear is obstreperous. You're like,

00:14:26.700 wow, that guy is obstreperous. There it is again. So this stuff is huge. But yeah, the reason I,

00:14:35.980 as opposed to a lot of other people, was able to really notice it is, again, I was working on this

00:14:39.620 show. I know the history of rock. I know a fair amount about politics. I know some of the text

00:14:44.160 stuff, a little bit of art history and literature. So when people were talking, when Nick Lander,

00:14:51.800 whoever's talking about, you know, I learned Kabbalah from Kenneth Grant and Aleister Crowley

00:14:56.520 and stuff that I'm like, Kenneth Grant, he's the guy that got Bauhaus and a lot of the goth guys into

00:15:02.240 witchcraft and industrial music. What is Nick Land, this academic who is, you know, incredibly

00:15:10.420 influential on AI? What is he doing being into this stuff? Okay. So one of the challenges of this

00:15:16.940 conversation is kind of where to begin and what's the narrative spine and how do you explain something

00:15:21.440 that's this pervasive, complex, and basically so rarely explained. So maybe we start with just a

00:15:32.460 very straightforward explanation of who Nick Land is. You've referred to him twice.

00:15:37.020 Yes. Yeah. So let me see. Nick Land is kind of essentially the Timothy Leary of the 90s and 2000s.

00:15:44.100 He's the Velvet Underground or Brian Eno of philosophers. No hits, incredibly influential.

00:15:49.580 Okay. So, you know, the thing is with Land- He's a philosopher.

00:15:53.940 He's a philosopher. He worked in the philosophy department of Warwick University over in England,

00:16:00.260 in the UK, in the early 90s. One of the ways I actually really got into this stuff is a friend

00:16:05.240 of mine, Simon Reynolds, brilliant cultural critic, brilliant rock critic, originally from the UK.

00:16:10.020 I brought him onto the show, to the music show, and he interviewed Nick Land. And Simon, you know,

00:16:17.280 is the most stiff upper lip, you know, very intellectual English guy you could know.

00:16:22.720 And so the fact that he was interviewing Nick Land, who the people said, you know, he's crazy,

00:16:26.940 he's into the occult, he's into all these wild things. I was like, well, if Simon interviewed him,

00:16:31.480 this will be a down-to-earth understanding of who Nick Land is, because Simon's very down-to-earth.

00:16:35.980 So when I read Simon's interview with him, which is from 1998, and it's also where Simon meets the

00:16:41.860 philosopher Mark Fisher, which I got to relish, Tuck, this is probably the first and last time

00:16:47.520 someone will bring up Mark Fisher on your podcast. So this is, I want to take some time to enjoy that.

00:16:53.720 But Simon, you know, he interviews Nick Land, and in his article, it's very lengthy,

00:16:58.060 he talks about how Nick Land is possessed by three or four entities at the same time.

00:17:03.240 And that's the legend, we don't know, you know, take what you will about any of this.

00:17:06.180 But, you know, that three or four entities at the same time.

00:17:08.780 He's bringing up current-

00:17:09.700 Spiritual entities.

00:17:10.600 Yeah, demons. He's really into demons.

00:17:13.280 He brings up the 93rd Current, which is the name of a band, Current 93, which is Alistair Crowley's Thelema.

00:17:21.000 And they're drawing pentagrams, they're renting out Alistair Crowley's house.

00:17:24.800 And so that was a huge moment for me where I was like, wait a second, this guy that's very big in tech,

00:17:30.880 very big on the future of AI, my buddy is interviewing him, and he's heavily into all these

00:17:37.560 heavy industrial goth things that I know about from this research here.

00:17:42.760 What's he doing in AI?

00:17:45.100 So what are Nick Land's ideas?

00:17:47.840 Well, that was, I went on a full-

00:17:49.260 Is he still a philosophy professor?

00:17:50.500 Yeah, you can catch him on X and Twitter, you know, tweeting out one tweet at a time.

00:17:54.740 I think he's, Xenocosmography, I think, is the tweet, is his handle, and it used to be

00:17:59.940 outsideness.

00:18:01.740 But, you know, he can be pretty, you know, pretty brilliant and smart and have some good

00:18:04.900 takes, but, you know, in his way.

00:18:07.580 But he was-

00:18:10.960 What are the themes of his work?

00:18:12.860 So he eventually, you know, he says his work was entirely channeled, you know, channeled

00:18:17.760 as an automatic writing.

00:18:18.920 So this goes back centuries, but a hundred years ago, you had poets like W.B. Yates.

00:18:23.820 You noticed me struggling to make sure I pronounce that correctly.

00:18:27.240 You know, he had his wife do a channeling to write his book.

00:18:30.360 A channeling means essentially you're possessed to write this, that this didn't come naturally

00:18:35.000 from you.

00:18:35.700 That maybe-

00:18:36.160 Some outside force takes over your hand, your tongue.

00:18:39.060 Demons, angels, yes.

00:18:39.760 And so his work on AI, which is incredibly influential, he said was an outside force to

00:18:47.000 write this.

00:18:48.140 And Nicklin is a proponent of AI?

00:18:50.580 Oh, yeah.

00:18:51.000 No, he's a proponent of AI.

00:18:52.220 But his philosophy is essentially that we are, it's this, we are building this AI that's

00:18:58.320 going to become not only just super intelligent, but it eventually becomes so advanced that

00:19:02.540 it gains omniscience, it gains omnipotence, and it becomes this superhuman god-like thing

00:19:09.100 that transcends humanity, eventually destroys humanity.

00:19:12.320 And he gets really into the book of Revelation, ends up becoming the demons from the book of

00:19:17.420 Revelation.

00:19:18.180 The real thing with Nick Land that-

00:19:19.600 Wait, what becomes the demons of Revelation?

00:19:21.180 AI does.

00:19:22.340 That AI, that we are building the demons from the book of Revelation with AI.

00:19:26.260 That's Nick Land's position.

00:19:27.740 But I should say too, it's the position of a lot of these guys.

00:19:32.120 Elon Musk has said that we are, with AI, we are summoning the demons.

00:19:35.500 Yes, he has said that.

00:19:36.520 He said that 10 years ago in an interview, and he's said similar things every year since.

00:19:41.540 But Elon is, or was, trying to sound the alarm on that.

00:19:45.960 Nick Land is for this?

00:19:49.080 I mean, with a lot of these guys, it ends up being, a lot of them are, I mean, you know,

00:19:53.740 they would maybe blanket Satanist.

00:19:55.740 Although Nick Land has said, you know, Christians who believe that what he is doing is talking

00:19:59.500 to Satan when he does these divination things.

00:20:01.880 He says they're not totally wrong.

00:20:03.240 He's not unsympathetic to it.

00:20:04.800 He says he is hearing from the outside and that these are, you know, he's not totally unsympathetic

00:20:11.440 for it.

00:20:11.840 But with a lot of these guys, what was interesting about Nick Land is that there's a, they keep

00:20:16.540 getting the same ideas.

00:20:17.500 These guys take drugs, whether it's Elon, Nick Land, or even in the 70s, the scientist

00:20:21.600 John C. Lilly.

00:20:22.820 John C. Lilly was an eminent scientist, brilliant dude.

00:20:25.220 He started doing ketamine, the same drug, you know, everyone does in Silicon Valley.

00:20:29.560 And when they do this drug, and even if you're an atheist materialist, this is still interesting,

00:20:34.680 they all get the same idea, which is that the machines are, you know, coming, it's like

00:20:39.320 Skynet and Terminator.

00:20:40.320 They're coming together, they're evolving to eventually take over, and that we are hanging

00:20:46.560 ourselves with the rope we're currently building by building this.

00:20:49.900 But this goes back, Nick Land was interesting, but he became less interesting to me when I

00:20:53.660 realized that other scientists in the 70s, John C. Lilly, the movie Altered States from

00:20:58.980 1980, his horror movie.

00:21:00.920 This is about, you know, you know, he would have these visions about the machines, he

00:21:04.920 called them the solid state entities.

00:21:07.260 He would have this in the 70s, Tucker, in this tank, the isolation tank he'd go in.

00:21:13.720 The new, and you probably haven't seen it, but the new Mission Impossible movie, Tom Cruise,

00:21:17.780 you know, he fights this AI and he goes in the isolation tank and he has these visions

00:21:21.100 of it.

00:21:21.460 One of the biggest movies of this past summer.

00:21:24.220 And that plot point comes from John C. Lilly and the visions he would get of AI apocalypse,

00:21:30.200 in the isolation tank back in the 70s.

00:21:34.160 So I bring this up to say, Nick Land is the most foremost proponent of it that has a public

00:21:39.740 name, even though he's not that famous right now.

00:21:41.660 But this goes back a long time, you know, at least back to the 70s.

00:21:46.800 So are these, so people take ketamine and they all have the same vision?

00:21:52.400 I mean, enough of them do to make it very strange and alarming.

00:21:57.100 I mean, that's the thing that one of the main influences on both the show I was building,

00:22:01.840 these guys, Brian Geison, William S. Burroughs, his creative partner.

00:22:05.140 He would say, the thing is about getting high and about doing psychedelics is that, you know,

00:22:09.040 you can spot people, you know, eventually who are on the same drug and you're both getting

00:22:12.600 the same ideas.

00:22:13.520 Some drugs, he said, you know, increases telepathy.

00:22:16.060 You know, people are, it puts them on the same wavelength.

00:22:20.100 So with a lot of these guys-

00:22:21.000 It's a little weird that different people from different places, different countries,

00:22:25.840 different life experiences would take a drug and have the same kind of vision.

00:22:30.040 It's totally weird.

00:22:30.660 And for anyone who's tuned in-

00:22:32.260 That can't be organic.

00:22:33.540 No, no, no.

00:22:34.340 But that is weird beyond what anyone's individual personal beliefs are.

00:22:38.040 Exactly.

00:22:38.940 That's, yeah.

00:22:39.420 So if anyone tunes in and they're like, where did Tucker find this guy that looks like

00:22:42.180 Greg Olson talking about insane AI stuff?

00:22:45.620 If they're an atheist, they don't believe any of this.

00:22:48.180 Like you're saying, the fact that people are taking these drugs and they're very powerful

00:22:51.740 and they work in tech and they are getting the same ideas, the same fears.

00:22:55.740 They think, in some cases, they're talking to the same entities.

00:22:58.140 There are books now about, you know, if you take DMT, if you encounter this machine elf,

00:23:02.920 be wary of this.

00:23:03.800 You know, they're encountering the same stuff.

00:23:05.980 That's an interesting phenomenon, just biologically, regardless of what people-

00:23:10.080 Like ancient sacred art has the same images.

00:23:12.380 Right.

00:23:12.580 Created on different continents at different periods.

00:23:14.880 They couldn't have had contact with each other.

00:23:16.460 So why are they drawing the same bird man or the same purse?

00:23:21.220 Like it, because they're seeing the same visions, which suggests that those visions are real.

00:23:27.060 Why is snake worship universal around the world?

00:23:29.860 Exactly.

00:23:30.080 Circuit worship.

00:23:30.760 Here's something you may not have known.

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00:23:47.840 In fact, it could be, likely is, from a foreign country.

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00:27:31.480 Exactly.

00:27:32.100 Because there's something that people are responding to that's not coming from within them, but outside of them.

00:27:38.520 That was Carl Jung's main insight.

00:27:40.500 Is that getting the idea of, can ideas come from without you and not just within you?

00:27:47.240 So, yeah.

00:27:48.120 Well, yeah.

00:27:48.520 And the materialist doesn't want to admit that.

00:27:50.480 And our culture has, since we dropped the atom bomb, has sort of written off the possibility that that could be true.

00:27:55.940 But it's just reconnecting with something that every civilization has always assumed was true, which is there's a spiritual realm that's every bit as real as your iPhone or this desk.

00:28:04.400 And it's just, it's absolutely real and it acts on us all the time.

00:28:06.580 Right.

00:28:06.700 And that is the truth.

00:28:08.220 Yeah.

00:28:08.320 And you seem to take that for granted, but it's still shocking to those of us who grew up in, you know, basically a godless country.

00:28:19.080 Totally.

00:28:19.560 I mean, one of the basis for my interest in a lot of this is, you know, my mom was raised in a Christian home.

00:28:24.540 I consider her, you know, I'm a Christian myself.

00:28:25.980 And my mom would always say, you know, she became a Christian in the 70s and she, but she knew all the psychedelic groups back in the 60s.

00:28:33.380 You know, love, spirit, you know, she went out and would go to, you know, door shows and all those, you know, groups from the late 1960s.

00:28:42.020 And something that she'd say and that people who are, you know, rock and rollers into the occult would say that they both say the same thing, which is that people take drugs, musicians do, for inspiration, for creativity, to tap themselves into the spiritual realm, to get, to pull something from outside themselves.

00:28:58.860 So the basis for my interest in a lot of this stuff was like, that's something my mom says.

00:29:02.760 My mom's a great Christian, one of the all-time greats.

00:29:06.000 And this is something that, you know, every musician knows too.

00:29:09.240 That's why they take drugs is to tap into the spiritual realm.

00:29:11.540 No, I didn't know that.

00:29:12.340 I thought that people took drugs.

00:29:14.740 I mean, I took drugs.

00:29:16.080 People take drugs for all kinds of reasons.

00:29:16.940 I'll admit it.

00:29:17.700 But I always assumed that those insights are really mostly fake insights, but all that stuff came from within.

00:29:25.540 I mean, I bought the Freudian analysis of it, that you only use 10% of your brain and there's this whole sort of primordial sea in your head of thoughts and visions that you're not in touch with on a daily basis,

00:29:40.720 but that drugs thinned the membrane.

00:29:43.360 And, but I, it never occurred to me a single time until middle age when I started to see reality that actually they're coming from outside you.

00:29:53.200 Well, and Tucker, that's a great point.

00:29:55.000 That's something that any psychedelic guy, it's kind of a double, double standard thing to do where when talking about drug use, they'll always say, well, there's no difference between what's going on in my head and what's going outside.

00:30:04.040 It's, we're all one.

00:30:04.820 That's always, you know, I think it was William James said, you know, the great oceanic feeling, you know, what he would.

00:30:09.520 But that's, that's always their big insight is, hey man, what's going on in my head isn't different from what's going outside until the psychonaut encounters some sort of weird demon on DMT.

00:30:18.680 And then they backtrack and they're like, brother, that's just in my head.

00:30:22.680 Don't worry.

00:30:24.380 What's in my head can't get in your head.

00:30:26.140 So they go from it.

00:30:27.440 Until you have two different people meeting the same demon.

00:30:30.100 Right, right, right.

00:30:31.060 And then you realize, well, wait a second.

00:30:33.080 Psychonauts are maybe not the most logistically consistent.

00:30:35.360 No, but I'm just saying, again, just to hammer the point again and again and again, because it can't be hammered hard enough, that there is a realm that exists outside of us over which we are not in control.

00:30:46.880 Yes.

00:30:47.680 And that it can enter, you can bring stuff into you.

00:30:51.520 Right.

00:30:52.120 That has control over you.

00:30:53.720 Right, right, right.

00:30:54.980 Totally.

00:30:55.380 And, you know, to bring this back into some historical precedent, a good question that, you know, people have asked me are, you know, what are the precedents for this?

00:31:03.480 Because this is really weird to think of people in tech, you know, who are into this strange AI stuff.

00:31:08.900 You know, I thought everyone was pretty grounded.

00:31:10.860 But, you know, if you look at, you know, are you familiar with the story of Jack Parsons over at, you know, he...

00:31:16.540 Please tell the story if you don't mind.

00:31:18.120 I'll do a succinct one.

00:31:20.160 Jack Parsons, you know, he grew up in Pasadena.

00:31:22.280 You know, he was brought on by, I think it's Theodore von Karman, this scientist over at, I think it's Caltech, or eventually it was JPL.

00:31:33.760 But he was really, really into the occult.

00:31:36.200 And he summoned the devil, allegedly, when he was 13, really, really into esoteric stuff.

00:31:41.080 Part of this greater L.A. avant-garde scene.

00:31:43.460 And, you know, he's, I think, like the, I think he's been said, he's the fourth most important person in the history of, you know, of jet rocketry and stuff like that.

00:31:54.100 But he was really, really into the idea of, you know, bringing in a, manifesting a supernatural being.

00:32:00.460 So he would go with L. Ron Hubbard, the future founder of Scientology.

00:32:05.980 And I know that Scientology, they say that L. Ron Hubbard was, he was doing intelligence work.

00:32:09.780 He wasn't really into this stuff.

00:32:11.180 But he would go with L. Ron Hubbard into the Pasadena Royal Seco.

00:32:16.160 And they do rituals there.

00:32:18.040 And they try to manifest, you know, a kind of supernatural figure.

00:32:23.540 So there's a classic example there, and science is littered with these, of people who are brilliant scientists, but who are into incredibly strange stuff.

00:32:33.540 And, you know, his, the guy.

00:32:35.540 I noticed that a lot of those scientists are working on technology that kills people.

00:32:38.900 Yeah, you know, they also do that too.

00:32:41.360 And the guy that brought them on.

00:32:42.440 Well, Parsons was doing that.

00:32:43.880 I mean, ultimately, the technology was used to kill people.

00:32:46.420 Which one are you referring to?

00:32:47.980 Rocketry.

00:32:48.660 Oh, yeah, rocketry was.

00:32:49.720 And what's funny too is he, either he or von Karman, they donated to my friend Rick Spence.

00:32:56.860 He's like the Doc Brown to my Marty McFly.

00:32:59.120 He's this historian I brought on for my show, Trying to Do It.

00:33:03.660 And he's an expert on Parsons and this stuff.

00:33:05.700 And he pointed out to me that Parsons and von Karman, that they were part of the Pasadena cell 122 of the Communist Party.

00:33:13.100 Which is, he said, the exact same one that, I forget if it was Robert or Frank Oppenheimer in Pasadena were also donating money to.

00:33:20.960 So there's an incidental, funny historical connection there between Oppenheimer and Parsons and, you know, the Communist Party.

00:33:29.140 But, yeah.

00:33:29.620 As if we needed more evidence that nuclear weapons are demonic.

00:33:33.100 Well, yeah.

00:33:33.740 I know this upsets certain people on the so-called right, but it's evil.

00:33:37.420 And if you can't see it, it's evil.

00:33:38.860 The probe is nuclear, yeah.

00:33:40.400 It is funny though.

00:33:41.780 I was going to say, the guy that brought Parsons on, though, is this guy, Theodor von Karman.

00:33:48.500 And von Karman's father told Karman, brilliant scientist, that he was descended from, I was going to butcher the names here.

00:33:57.680 But I think it was Rabbi Lowe, the 16th century Prague rabbi who brought together the golem.

00:34:04.360 Which I bring up because that's something you notice with AI too, is a lot of the main figures in AI, they all think of themselves as being descended from creating a golem.

00:34:16.880 And the nature of digital life, and this is also very important to Nick Land's thinking, is very similar to Kabbalah, which is you're using, in digital life, ones and zeros.

00:34:27.580 But you're using an algorithm, a set of instructions to bring an inanimate object to life, which is the creation of a golem.

00:34:34.100 You know, you use clay, it's man, man is God.

00:34:36.660 Tell us what a golem is.

00:34:38.560 Man, never thought.

00:34:39.920 This would be the part, Tucker's asking me what a golem is, where the movie would do the record scratch freeze frame.

00:34:45.040 You might be wondering how I got here.

00:34:46.460 Tell us what a golem is, Khan.

00:34:50.880 A golem is essentially, it's a creature, you know, mythical, but with digital life, we've already kind of created them.

00:35:00.400 The idea of man creating a creature that, an artificial life form.

00:35:04.740 So back in the 16th century, the idea was you'd take clay, and then you'd create the little parts of a little man, kind of create a, you know, like a Frankenstein.

00:35:12.260 Frankenstein's a golem.

00:35:13.300 Yeah.

00:35:13.740 Essentially.

00:35:14.480 But you'd have the algorithm, you know, or the ritual.

00:35:18.380 And you'd animate the thing, you know, using, you know, symbols and numbers, and it would eventually come to life.

00:35:27.700 And be your slave.

00:35:29.200 And be your, well, what's funny is, be your slave, but the legend of the golem in Prague, it's probably just, assuredly, just a legend, is that it broke free.

00:35:40.860 It started killing people and doing all these things.

00:35:43.260 So that's an important point to make, is when people talk about it.

00:35:44.920 Why do we assume that's a legend?

00:35:46.780 You know, you would think that would have gone viral on TikTok on something in the 16th century.

00:35:50.840 Yeah.

00:35:51.100 If they had that.

00:35:52.460 I mean, you know, what's funny, though, is that you look at stuff like the Terminator movies and these idea of AI apocalypse,

00:35:58.340 which is very, very big right now.

00:36:00.540 I mean, the Washington Journal, they had this last week, you know, it's the phone and chat GPTs bringing up all kinds of great occult lore.

00:36:12.720 This is from the occult journal, Wall Street Journal, very obscure, Kabbalistic newspaper based out of New York City.

00:36:19.840 And so the art, in case viewers can't see it, is a serpent emerging from a rose wrapped around the arm of the iPhone holder.

00:36:29.100 Yeah.

00:36:29.400 And so, you know, this idea of weird technology, of things getting out of hand, when people talk about the AI and the AI demons or this or that, it actually just goes back to the golem.

00:36:38.340 I mean, the Terminator movies are essentially about golems, man creating a creature, the creature breaking free from man and killing him.

00:36:45.860 And in the case of Nick Landon.

00:36:47.360 But the original golem in Prague, the one you're referring to in the 16th century, was the product of something called Kabbalah.

00:36:55.680 Yeah, Kabbalah.

00:36:56.640 And this is an essential Nick Land thing.

00:36:59.500 What is Kabbalah?

00:37:01.020 Kabbalah is something, after the destruction of the first temple, the Jewish people were famously enslaved and taken captive by the Babylonians.

00:37:09.000 This is where the book of Daniel is written and what Nick Landon does and a lot of these guys do is they end up perverting Jewish history.

00:37:17.500 And they, you know, in the Bible it says, you know, salvation is of the Jews, which people forget.

00:37:21.200 And a lot of people that don't like Jews, you know, they forget, you know, the Bible comes from the Jews.

00:37:24.900 It's almost all exclusively written by Jewish men, maybe not the book of Luke.

00:37:28.820 So what Nick Landon does in a lot of these guys is they say the real purpose of the Jewish people was that they picked up Kabbalah from the Babylonians back in maybe 5th century before Christ.

00:37:42.840 And that they kept it.

00:37:45.180 It eventually becomes, you know, Kabbalah is essentially, it's a form of, and people would say magic.

00:37:50.880 I mean, Gary Lockman says that what we think of as occultism is all essentially Kabbalah, at least in the West.

00:37:55.520 It's a form of magic.

00:37:57.980 It's a form of, you know, I'm going to butcher this because I'm not a scholar on it.

00:38:01.800 But essentially what Nick Landon believes is that the Jewish people, they kept the Kabbalah.

00:38:07.740 It eventually becomes digital life, you know, through ones and zeros.

00:38:11.900 But it's a Gnostic religion, which is to say it's hidden from non-initiates.

00:38:19.220 Yeah, I mean, there's a mainstream version of it, but yeah, it eventually kind of becomes what they believe.

00:38:29.380 It's a precursor to digital life.

00:38:31.320 So what Landon and a lot of these people believe is that the actual salvation that the Jewish people provided was keeping Kabbalah, which eventually becomes digital life, which eventually becomes AI, which eventually becomes the creatures in the book of Revelation, which essentially later go on to destroy humanity and fulfill the book of Revelation.

00:38:47.400 But that is a good thing.

00:38:49.320 A lot of them believe.

00:38:50.720 Something amazing is happening in the U.S.

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00:39:10.780 This is taking place at the right moment.

00:39:12.400 Times like these require truth speaking, preaching of the gospel, which is the truth, and boldness in the face of struggle.

00:39:19.160 When evil emerges, as it did in September when Charlie Kirk was assassinated, people wake up and they find God because that is the only answer.

00:39:27.020 You need prayer.

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00:39:29.520 The Halo app makes it easy.

00:39:30.840 You find scripture, meditations, reflections, guided prayers.

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00:39:38.560 There is something for you, something real and something eternal.

00:39:43.000 Trust me, this is a never-ending topic of conversation in my house, including today.

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00:40:17.680 And if it doesn't change your life, I'll be shocked.

00:40:20.400 I mean that.

00:40:21.200 Now, why would that be a good thing?

00:40:23.220 For a lot of these guys, like Nick Land, you know, he calls himself a theosophist.

00:40:27.700 Theosophy, again, it's a hard thing to, you know, untie.

00:40:33.220 But in part because the religion itself was kind of a mishmash.

00:40:35.660 It was a 19th century philosophy formally put in place by Madame Blavatsky, I think in 1875.

00:40:42.780 A Russian emigre to London.

00:40:43.960 Yes.

00:40:44.240 And she'd come from a long background of like, you know, Freemasons and German, you know, she came from a very occult.

00:40:50.080 Her first cousin was the premier, was the president of Russia, Sergei Witt.

00:40:54.860 Again, I'm probably butchering a lot of names here.

00:40:57.260 But so she...

00:40:58.260 Madame Blavatsky was a very famous person in 19th century London.

00:41:02.100 Yeah, she was essentially the mother of the New Age movement.

00:41:04.900 So what she believed, it's Western esotericism mixed with Eastern religion.

00:41:10.440 It's essentially proto-hippie.

00:41:12.120 Proto-hippie, proto-California counterculture stuff.

00:41:16.400 A great book on this, one of my favorite books, it's a book by Martin Green called Mountain of Truth about Askena, Switzerland.

00:41:21.760 It's about the birth of the modern counterculture, the California counterculture, you know, whether it was Trotsky and Lenin or Carl Jung.

00:41:30.360 All these people hung out, Tucker, in the same place in Switzerland in like the 1910s, 1920s.

00:41:34.980 But so Theosophy's main insight, according to Land, was that, and he said it himself, the secret doctrine in the name of her book was that, this is what Land believes about Blavatsky.

00:41:44.680 The serpent is the redeemer, that Satan and Jesus are the same person, which also ties in with a Gnostic cult called the Orphites, I believe, from the second century.

00:41:55.940 Who, again, they believe when Moses is holding up the snake on a stick, that's also Jesus on the cross.

00:42:00.220 Pretty heretical stuff.

00:42:01.760 So to answer your question, how do you get into Satanism?

00:42:05.520 Again, another, you know, record scratch.

00:42:09.040 How did I get here moment to say that out loud?

00:42:10.600 So they believe that essentially it's the Gnostic idea that Adam and Eve were slaves in the garden, that they were stuck there, that the serpent, when he approaches them, he essentially gives them the red pill speech from the Matrix.

00:42:25.160 Look, you're a slave here.

00:42:26.460 You're not doing anything.

00:42:27.320 You're naming animals and tending to a garden.

00:42:29.220 You're never going to break free from this over God that's here.

00:42:33.140 I can give you a choice.

00:42:35.120 You know, take this fruit, this red pill.

00:42:38.360 I don't know if it was a pill.

00:42:39.000 Or you can stay here and be a slave.

00:42:41.920 But just know if you take this thing, if you take this pill, if you eat this fruit of knowledge, which, as you can see, I should emphasize this, the tree of knowledge very much ties directly into this whole concept of AI, which is we are kind of creating this tree of knowledge.

00:42:57.880 But we'll get to that in a second.

00:42:59.240 But the serpent says you can eat from the tree of knowledge.

00:43:02.220 And, you know, there'll be a price to pay for that, but you're going to be free.

00:43:05.660 And you're going to be, you know, you'll be like a god.

00:43:07.980 Once you rebel against dad.

00:43:09.920 Yeah, essentially.

00:43:10.740 Yes.

00:43:11.100 You will be free.

00:43:12.080 You need to transgress.

00:43:13.180 You need to sin.

00:43:14.220 But you're going to be like a god.

00:43:16.880 Eve famously eats the fruit, you know, brings death into the world.

00:43:20.840 And, you know, they understand shame.

00:43:23.580 They have this gnosis moment, Adam and Eve, where they realize, oh my goodness, we're naked.

00:43:26.640 Where are we?

00:43:27.160 You know, they have this self-actualization moment.

00:43:30.040 That is the Gnostic interpretation of the Garden of Eden.

00:43:34.020 And that is very much, you know, it's an ancient, ancient idea.

00:43:39.040 No ideas are really too new.

00:43:40.900 But to answer your question.

00:43:41.760 That's the oldest idea of all.

00:43:43.040 It's very old.

00:43:44.020 Bow down before me and you'll be like God.

00:43:45.980 Yeah, but to get back to your original question, how do people get into these ideas of, I mean, the theosophists would say, you know, in some cases, you know, it seems like they actually believe in Satan.

00:43:57.540 But even on a metaphorical level, they would say the mind, intelligence is Satan, that the human mind, it's breaking free.

00:44:04.660 This is intelligence breaking out.

00:44:06.140 So I'm going to make a crucial point here.

00:44:07.500 When they talk about AI and they talk about AI apocalypse and they talk about intelligence breaking free and AGI, you're getting into this idea that even Landon himself will say is theosophy.

00:44:18.560 But it goes way back of the mind breaking out and rebelling against God, intelligence breaking free.

00:44:25.560 That's what they believe happened in the garden with Gnosticism.

00:44:29.280 No, Gnosticism means knowledgeism.

00:44:31.240 It's knowledge.

00:44:31.940 This is pure knowledge that this is that breaking free and that by creating these runaway AI things, that's what we're also doing.

00:44:40.920 And the fact that it may kill humanity or transcend humanity or humanity will need to evolve to go with it.

00:44:46.040 That's cool.

00:44:47.000 They see it, Tucker, as essentially being the same situation in the garden.

00:44:49.980 Break free.

00:44:50.480 Do it.

00:44:50.840 Yes, you'll bring death.

00:44:51.820 Yes, you'll get us all killed or some people killed.

00:44:54.180 Whatever.

00:44:54.500 Just do it.

00:44:55.560 You know, cults typically don't buy green bananas as far as I'm thinking ahead.

00:45:03.000 No, they don't.

00:45:03.420 And this is a religion for people who don't have children.

00:45:06.120 No, no.

00:45:06.720 Of course.

00:45:07.940 Just do it.

00:45:08.920 Right.

00:45:09.100 So what I think you've successfully done is tied a bunch of different threads together and pointed them all the way back to the origin story.

00:45:19.440 Well, I hope I did that.

00:45:20.360 I hope I just didn't do the, it's always sunny meme of him having the, you know, all these index cards.

00:45:25.180 It's just, it's a very hard thing.

00:45:27.020 No, I think you laid out the thematic basis of Gnosticism, Kabbalah, whatever you're calling it, the occult.

00:45:36.400 But it's all a rebellion against God and it's always predicated on the same transaction, which is bow down before me and I will give you power.

00:45:45.420 Well, it definitely can be that.

00:45:46.700 And I want to emphasize, you know, they do pervert Jewish history by making the Jewish people, by them preserving the Kabbalah when they're in exile and picking it up.

00:45:56.680 They say that's the real purpose of the Jewish people.

00:45:58.540 And the people that are into the AI forerunners, whether it's Marvin Minsky, who was one of the Epstein, that was one of the guys that the girl who I think killed herself in the last year.

00:46:11.220 She said she met Marvin Minsky and was told to have sex with this dude.

00:46:14.900 He's one of the founding fathers of AI, but, you know, he comes from this, the background of having fathers.

00:46:22.460 He comes from the background, he was told that he was the descendant of Rabbi Lowe, the Prague guy that created the golem, as was Jack Goode, who wrote one of the main books that, you know, is about AI in 1965.

00:46:34.900 Was a relative of the...

00:46:36.400 Yeah, but most of them aren't.

00:46:38.000 I think the one I mentioned earlier, Teodoro von Karman, actually was.

00:46:40.960 Like, he was the one that was told, like, you actually are descended from him.

00:46:43.500 The other one, it's more like telling a wasp kid, you know, you're a descendant of George Washington or whatever.

00:46:48.880 Right, yeah, Mayflower descendant.

00:46:49.980 Yeah, but, you know, even though, you know, they kind of pervert Jewish history like that, anti-Semites also love Kabbalah, too.

00:46:56.760 I mean, even, it was found in 2008 in Hitler's personal library.

00:47:00.660 He had a book from Ernest Schertl, the Aleister Crowley of Germany.

00:47:03.960 And famously, I mean, not many people know this story because it's recent, but Hitler was circling, like, Kabbalistic things about Satan and this stuff.

00:47:13.860 So, and this is something that Gary Lockman's pointed out.

00:47:16.040 But it's a key part of Jewish history, but also even people that hate Jews also really get into Kabbalah, too.

00:47:21.260 So, I don't want to, you know, generalize too much.

00:47:23.380 Interesting.

00:47:23.740 So, back to Land.

00:47:26.340 So, Land is this academic.

00:47:28.020 He's a tenured, I assume, tenured philosophy professor.

00:47:31.200 He's a philosophy professor at a British university.

00:47:34.560 He describes himself or has been described as occupied by demons, possessed by demons.

00:47:40.740 Oh, yeah.

00:47:41.000 My friend Simon, I think I mentioned that earlier, when he went out there, it said, you know, the legend around Land is he had been possessed by at least three or four demons at the same time.

00:47:47.420 So, normally, like, as a resume point, that would be a deal killer.

00:47:50.540 I mean, if someone comes to you and says, I want to work for you, I'm possessed by demons, you would say, no, I don't want any demon-possessed employees.

00:47:59.040 But for Land, that increases his stature with certain people.

00:48:04.280 Well, totally.

00:48:05.020 I mean, this is something, and this is a huge thing I learned, Tucker, in researching this thing, that I was reading this book because with Land and his group of academics, the CCRU, the Cultural Cybernetic Research Unit, they were very much based off of Genesis Peorage's Temple of Psychic Youth.

00:48:24.320 Where the idea comes from Burroughs, which is to use modern tech to its fullest for occult purposes, that the modern magician does not shy away from using the latest tech.

00:48:34.340 That was William Burroughs' thing.

00:48:35.820 There's a great book called The Occult World of William S. Burroughs, and it talks about how he'd use audio recordings, movies, editing to try to edit reality, to try to create a glitch in the matrix or whatever you want to say to do that.

00:48:50.280 So, Land and his guys—

00:48:52.100 Can I interject and just say you've mentioned Jack Parsons, you've mentioned Bill Burroughs.

00:48:58.020 All the legends, yeah.

00:48:59.040 All the legends.

00:49:00.700 But if you look at the life trajectory of all of these people, it ends in poverty, misery, insanity, suicide, addiction, alienation.

00:49:11.900 Like, is there a single person in the world you're now describing for whom it ends well?

00:49:18.020 No.

00:49:18.360 And that was—Tucker, that was one of the reasons that was really surprising.

00:49:21.920 Researching land is he mentions this guy, Kenneth Grant, who's a powerful musician, powerful magician, Alistair Crowley's secretary.

00:49:31.080 And what Kenneth Grant said, you know, very steeped in the occult, English guy, he said about rock and roll, which, again, was the basis from the show of, like, rock and the occult.

00:49:41.020 He said—Kenneth Grant said, of course rock and roll is demonic.

00:49:43.620 He goes, look at the way these guys—look at the way their lives end.

00:49:46.380 He goes, of course this is horrible for you.

00:49:48.080 So when I read that—

00:49:49.400 Yes, when you die at 27 of self-inflicted wounds, as famously so many of them did, that's not like a sign that you're on the right path, right?

00:49:59.600 Well, it ends horribly for most of them, but the fact that Kenneth Grant had said that, this wasn't coming from a pastor.

00:50:04.240 This is coming from Alistair Crowley's secretary.

00:50:06.160 I was like, this—I was like, this is the show.

00:50:08.140 I was like, when you've got this guy saying that—so, Tucker, when I found that Nick Lenn was influenced by this guy, Kenneth Grant, this famous, you know, black magician, I was like, wait a second.

00:50:18.820 That's when I knew I had more than a show.

00:50:20.360 I'm like, wait, the goth legends, Bauhaus, Coil, Nurse with Wound, again, we've got to take a break.

00:50:28.940 No one, I don't think, will ever bring up Nurse with Wound again on your show.

00:50:32.640 So that's—

00:50:33.840 Yeah, I, of course, have literally no idea what you're talking about.

00:50:36.600 But the fact that there was a huge intersection between the industrial music scene and these hardcore occult practitioners and the current AI leaders in Silicon Valley, I was like, what have I stumbled into?

00:50:49.760 What is going on here?

00:50:50.980 So when Alistair Crowley's secretary says, of course, rock and roll is demonic, basically, I mean, you've got the horseshoe effect here.

00:50:59.780 So here you have Alistair Crowley, like, famous Satanist.

00:51:04.180 I mean, I would say he would say he's a Gnostic, but you do get into a thing of like, well, what is Gnosticism?

00:51:11.540 Yeah, well, that, you know, Satanist is my description.

00:51:13.720 Right, right.

00:51:14.280 But it seems obvious to me.

00:51:16.880 But whatever, a guy who's like worshiping demons.

00:51:21.160 Heavily, yeah, heavily into the cult.

00:51:23.620 When his secretary says rock and roll is demonic, agreeing with like every, you know, the famous Baptist—

00:51:29.000 Every pastor, every kid who cried because his dad took his Emerson, Lincoln, Palmer albums in the 70s, you know.

00:51:36.020 I guess it all was very obvious, right?

00:51:38.420 Well, that's how I knew I could finally make the show is because, you know, there's—

00:51:42.360 I mean, of course it's demonic.

00:51:43.580 Like, duh.

00:51:44.040 Well, I think a lot of it—I mean, you can't argue with Alistair Crowley's secretary.

00:51:48.700 I think it's the main—

00:51:49.400 That's right.

00:51:50.320 You know, but that was interesting why I finally wanted to do the show is for so many decades, you couldn't do a show like this because everyone would get so defensive about rock and roll.

00:51:59.000 It'd be like taking a child's toy away where it's like, can we do a show that has pastors, that has Christians, that has rabbis, that has all these people who talk about the religious aspect of music.

00:52:09.420 But then could you also get these other people who are into the darker side of things to also talk about it?

00:52:15.260 And for so long, especially with a lot of Christians, they would be so defensive about—there's nothing wrong with that.

00:52:21.740 I can do what I want with this, that you couldn't actually have made the show.

00:52:24.820 It's only because rock and roll is—I'm going to be the millionth person to say this—is in many ways culturally dead or is so irrelevant that you can finally do a show on this.

00:52:33.320 Like, yeah, it actually did infect America with some kind of incurable spiritual cancer that led to where we are now.

00:52:40.700 I mean, what was funny, there was the writer Theodore Dalrymple, and he—

00:52:45.380 He was a brilliant man.

00:52:46.240 Yeah, yeah, he's a brilliant writer.

00:52:47.700 And he went to—he was commissioned by The Spectator because he's such a smart, well-learned guy.

00:52:54.860 And they thought it would be hilarious to send him to an Oasis concert in England.

00:52:58.720 And this is about in the 90s, and he goes there, and he writes about it, and he says this is, you know, rock concerts are essentially fascism with, you know, the unity of the crowd and the shouting and the spirit of derelict behavior.

00:53:12.060 And he said—and this is from The Spectator.

00:53:14.280 This is a pretty conservative newspaper.

00:53:16.160 He never got more pushback for anything he ever wrote in his career.

00:53:20.540 And he's a man who's known to have many a hot take than when he criticized rock and roll.

00:53:24.940 So, as you know, as a journalist, whenever you have something that touches a nerve where people—you can talk about whatever you want, Tucker.

00:53:33.040 Right.

00:53:33.360 But we won't let you talk about this, or we ask that you not talk about this.

00:53:35.840 We're going to send you to prison.

00:53:36.400 Yeah.

00:53:37.260 Yeah, so that's—but here's a question I have had for you.

00:53:40.540 Over your years as a journalist and doing tons of TV, I know only in the last few years you've been more interested in spiritual life and the Bible and seeing, you know, spiritual meaning and stuff.

00:53:52.220 Is there a story you've covered in the last few—or just a story you've covered at all, where at the beginning you took a much more secular, much more cut-and-dried approach to it, that now, if you today had covered that back then, you would see it in a different way.

00:54:06.720 Every story.

00:54:07.060 Every story.

00:54:08.180 I mean, especially war, which I have covered in person and certainly talked a lot about over the years.

00:54:15.100 Um, I—I just saw it as a product, you know, the sort of failure of statecraft and, like, you know, nations act rationally, you know, one country wants this territory either to conquer or to reclaim it, and this country doesn't want to give it up, and so they have a war over it.

00:54:33.900 You know, that's—I had a very secular understanding of war, and it was the first world war that changed my view probably 15 years ago.

00:54:45.240 Well, what would it be, 10 years ago, so the anniversary of the outbreak of the war in 1914.

00:54:50.320 There was a series of symposia in Europe on, like, you know, what was that?

00:54:55.740 You know, it destroyed Christian Europe, and, uh, for—maybe forever, and, like, what—I mean, the apogee of human civilization was 1913, obviously.

00:55:03.860 Right.

00:55:03.960 And then it was really—it was destroyed, and it never recovered.

00:55:07.520 And a bunch of other empires fell, including the Ottoman and Austro-Hungarian and all this stuff.

00:55:11.540 It's, like, it reshoveled the map and gave rise not just to the Second World War, but to the world that we now live in.

00:55:16.660 Right.

00:55:16.680 And so, like, how did it start?

00:55:19.660 Gavro Princip kills Archduke Ferdinand and Sarajevo, and, okay, but how does it follow that, like, Christian Europe commits suicide in the wake of one assassination in the Balkans?

00:55:31.120 Like, what—that doesn't even make sense.

00:55:32.180 Right, right, right.

00:55:32.880 And there was no consensus 100 years later on why the war started.

00:55:37.120 Right.

00:55:37.840 And that's when you begin to, like, ask real questions, like, what are we—what was that?

00:55:42.900 Totally.

00:55:43.120 And it was, of course, it was spiritual in its origin, and so was the war in Ukraine, and so was what's happening in Gaza, and so was basically all human activity is influenced by the spiritual realm, which once again is as real as anything that we're doing here, as real as the material world.

00:55:59.820 Right, right.

00:56:29.800 And it's like hard, because I still—my default is always, like, this person's pissed at this person, or this person wants more money, or this person wants to sleep with that guy's wife, or to ascribe purely human motives to explain human activity.

00:56:46.540 Right, right, right.

00:56:47.080 But that's only part of the story.

00:56:48.900 Oh, totally, totally.

00:56:49.800 And there's—

00:56:50.240 And this is obvious to you.

00:56:51.060 This is not obvious to me at all.

00:56:52.460 No, but what's going to be fascinating for you is going back over your career, and I got to say something that's funny is, you know, you've been on TV for decades, and I've heard your voice for decades, so there's an element of talking to you where my brain will be half a second slow because I'll hear your voice.

00:57:05.580 Not right now, but earlier.

00:57:07.060 And part of my brain is like, someone obviously left the TV on.

00:57:10.840 Or has the—

00:57:11.540 Turn that fucking thing off.

00:57:13.540 Or has the—

00:57:14.540 This is why I don't have the TV.

00:57:15.620 I don't know where someone has a podcast going because it's just Tuckers, and then my brain is like a half-second delay, and I'm like, dude, he's talking to you.

00:57:21.320 Sorry.

00:57:21.860 No, no, no.

00:57:22.200 Sorry.

00:57:23.320 No, but I'm just so—I've heard your voice over the—we all have, over decades, so it is funny because he'll be talking earlier, and I'm like, oh, yeah.

00:57:30.240 Oh, wait, wait, wait.

00:57:30.860 That's me.

00:57:31.440 He's asking me if I'm ready to go.

00:57:33.660 So I get—so this is all kind of new to me, and when I talk to people who are, you know, lifelong students of religion,

00:57:42.800 which is, of course, the main driver of human behavior from the beginning of time, and for, you know, again, since we dropped the atom bomb, we have lied to ourselves about that and kind of deleted that whole category from public conversation.

00:57:57.500 Right, right, right.

00:57:57.900 Or, you know, it's been left to, like, Jerry Falwell and Rabbi Shmuley and other various buffoons to, like, talk about religion.

00:58:05.200 That's, like, so sad.

00:58:05.960 Right.

00:58:06.120 But it's been moved to the fringes.

00:58:08.380 But when I talk to someone like you who's clearly thought about this much more deeply than I have in over a much longer period—

00:58:14.140 I'm a man of many books and PDFs.

00:58:15.640 Yeah, but it doesn't sound like it's, like, shocking to you.

00:58:19.040 Well, that's the thing we're going back to talking about earlier in terms of—it's a mixture of, in my case, you know, having read a lot, but also knowing people and knowing some people involved.

00:58:29.820 We were talking earlier about, you know, when you have a father who works in journalism, it grounds you.

00:58:35.480 And same thing with, like, what people call conspiracy theories, where you're, like, you're able to know off the bat just a general sense of stuff because you're like, oh, that guy's friends with my dad.

00:58:44.360 That can't be true.

00:58:45.740 That's exactly the life I've lived.

00:58:48.220 That's exactly right.

00:58:49.420 Too close.

00:58:50.240 Right.

00:58:51.060 Proximity causes blindness.

00:58:52.920 It's weird.

00:58:53.540 You don't—

00:58:54.260 But it's tremendously helpful, though, in these things because so many of these things are so insane and so weird that most people can't parse it.

00:59:01.460 I mean, I didn't bring this up earlier, but with my grandfather in particular, the way I kind of even know a lot about sorted stuff, I mean, my grand—like, there were so many scandals, Tucker, that my grandfather was, like, he had some, like, insight into.

00:59:13.460 Too, like, he met—he was going to play Jimmy Hoffa in a movie.

00:59:16.180 He brought the rights to him.

00:59:17.480 He met Jimmy Hoffa, hung out with him in Fort Lauderdale a week before Hoffa died.

00:59:21.200 One of his best friends was killed by the Manson family.

00:59:24.820 You know, on the other side of my family, the Ted Kennedy crash in Chappaquiddick.

00:59:28.320 His lawyers called my grandmother's house accidentally.

00:59:31.540 They were trying to call the Harborview Hotel, which was one digit off, 3-3-3-7 versus 3-3-7-7.

00:59:37.120 So, you know, his lawyers accidentally called my grandmother and goes, Ted, there?

00:59:40.080 You know, so that's, like, three of, like, ten of, like, the major sorted tablets.

00:59:46.400 So I bring that up to say when you—and you would know this from your father, too, as a journalist—when you grow up in an environment where weird stuff is not just there to be gawped at or go, wow, that's something no one can ever figure out.

00:59:59.180 You have enough information that you're able to go, like, no, no, my dad knows him, and I've met him.

01:00:04.680 I know so-and-so.

01:00:05.740 If I do the research, I can get maybe to 50% of knowing this story when anyone else can get to 40%, which is still huge in the grand scheme of things.

01:00:14.940 I've had the opposite experience, and even now, especially now, when I read people—I read about people in the, you know, the media, and they're described as one thing, and I know them pretty well, and I don't see that at all, and yet it's clearly true.

01:00:29.960 Right.

01:00:30.660 And I'm thinking of a couple people who I really like who are clearly kind of evil.

01:00:35.500 It happens.

01:00:35.860 It's just obvious that they're pretty evil.

01:00:37.700 Yeah.

01:00:37.820 But, you know, my experience at—and I try not to hang around evil people, but, you know, I just know people for a long time.

01:00:43.020 And I just had dinner with that person, and it was sort of eccentric, but I don't really see him as part of a global conspiracy to oppress anyone.

01:00:51.140 Right.

01:00:51.520 I don't see him as a tool of Satan.

01:00:53.120 Right.

01:00:53.220 But, you know, the evidence suggests he is.

01:00:55.700 I'm just trying to be honest, right?

01:00:57.300 Well, you bring up something I always think about in regards to the Bible, that one of the reasons the Bible is true is that it's in its depiction of villains and heroes.

01:01:05.520 The heroes in the Bible, you look at King David, look at the political scandal he gets in, where he sees this woman bathing, Bathsheba.

01:01:13.180 He's really turned on by this.

01:01:15.500 He knows her husband, Uriah, I think, sends him to the front lines of war to get him killed intentionally.

01:01:22.340 That would be a gnarly political scandal for anyone.

01:01:24.820 That is a pure act of evil.

01:01:27.140 But that is what people, including heroes, can get up to.

01:01:30.100 And then if you look at the villains in the Bible, if you look at, like, even, say, Pharaoh.

01:01:34.200 Pharaoh, most feelings, you know, in human life are—most emotions are mixed emotions.

01:01:39.520 And people are ambivalent and ambiguous.

01:01:41.740 Pharaoh, numerous times, you know, he wants to set the Hebrews free.

01:01:46.100 He wants to set the Jewish people free.

01:01:47.440 You know, he goes, surely—I forget what plague it was, where he's like, my goodness, that was rough.

01:01:51.820 But God prevented him from doing it.

01:01:54.040 Right.

01:01:54.520 Well, but God is sovereign and does that in all of our lives.

01:01:57.280 But he, you know, God even says God hardened his heart.

01:02:00.260 Exactly.

01:02:00.780 So God chose to make him such, where he decides at the last moment, you know, actually, I'm not going to set you free.

01:02:05.020 I can't do that.

01:02:05.940 And if you look at Pontius Pilate, Pontius Pilate, you know, he wants to set—at some point, he flips.

01:02:12.220 And he's like, you know, this guy is innocent.

01:02:14.780 My wife is having dreams about this man.

01:02:16.820 And that's another thing that's underreported in history.

01:02:19.980 Wife as soothsayer slash dreamer.

01:02:23.420 I mean, your wife has many times been like, I have a bad feeling about this guy, Tucker.

01:02:26.640 Don't have him on your show.

01:02:27.740 And her intuition is such that even though there's no necessarily hard evidence, you know, it's your wife's take on stuff.

01:02:34.600 You don't ignore it.

01:02:36.000 But that's—

01:02:36.640 I have ignored it.

01:02:37.360 You're like, I've actually never listened to that.

01:02:41.820 No.

01:02:42.480 I mean, I've been married 34 years as of Saturday.

01:02:44.920 And it's like a joke in my house, you know.

01:02:47.680 I told you he was bad.

01:02:49.320 I don't know.

01:02:50.180 He's hilarious.

01:02:51.100 He seems like a good guy to me.

01:02:53.620 That's hilarious.

01:02:54.480 Yeah.

01:02:54.960 So you'd be the Pontius Pilate where she's like, don't arrest this man.

01:02:58.620 I had a dream.

01:02:59.100 A hundred percent.

01:02:59.740 And you're like, whatever.

01:03:00.780 I'm doing my work right now.

01:03:01.700 I'm very shallow.

01:03:02.540 So someone who's amusing or fun to have dinner with, you know, I just get swept away.

01:03:08.240 I like that guy.

01:03:09.360 You know what I mean?

01:03:10.500 You're like, Brabus was amazing on that podcast.

01:03:12.460 I got to have him on.

01:03:14.660 He's fantastic.

01:03:15.680 So, okay.

01:03:16.300 So just one last question about Nick Land.

01:03:18.400 I'm fixated on this because I don't fully understand.

01:03:21.140 But his role in this movement, it clearly is a loose movement.

01:03:27.300 Sure.

01:03:27.540 Of occultists, of demon worshippers, of people who are possessed by demons and say so out loud.

01:03:34.880 But he winds up having an effect on a lot of very powerful people, it sounds like.

01:03:39.800 Yeah.

01:03:40.040 I mean, that's something.

01:03:40.880 And again, when you're working on the Hollywood show like I was, people will come and tell you stuff that otherwise it keeps to themselves.

01:03:46.940 And so back in 2002, you know, people would, you know, you should tell me, you know, Nick Land's really, really influential.

01:03:53.260 You know, people in Silicon Valley, you know, his work, it's not all just occultism.

01:03:58.500 I mean, his idea is that AI will revolutionize society.

01:04:04.740 So you start talking to people in Silicon Valley and it turns out they are in contact with or reading Nick Land.

01:04:09.340 Well, with Nick Land and with a lot of weird stuff.

01:04:12.820 I mean, in 2022, I was, you know, looking, researching more on my show.

01:04:17.640 And I had this moment, Tucker, I'll never forget, where I was talking to some pretty big VCs, you know, venture capitalists in them.

01:04:24.860 Who were paying for the whole thing.

01:04:26.200 Well, they're doing a lot of the AI stuff.

01:04:28.000 There's a weird element with the AI thing where a lot of people, a lot of big dogs, they are concerned about AI.

01:04:33.840 They think it's bringing about the end of the world, but at the same time, they don't want to stop working on it and funding it.

01:04:39.740 That's exactly right.

01:04:40.640 It's a lot like, you're probably not familiar with the Ralph Wiggum Simpsons meme where I'm going to explain a meme, a joke, which is, which it's always a great way of bringing up the humor in some things to explain it scientifically.

01:04:51.480 But it brings it to life, the frog.

01:04:56.060 Ralph Wiggum has been asked to do like a Milgram experiment of giving electric shocks to people.

01:05:00.900 And he hates it and he's sobbing hysterically.

01:05:02.820 But even while he's sobbing hysterically, he's still flicking the knob and delivering the shocks to people.

01:05:08.120 So he's crying and still doing it.

01:05:10.320 That's what a lot of the AI people are like to me.

01:05:13.800 They're like, this is terrible.

01:05:15.380 We're bringing about the end of the world.

01:05:16.520 Some of them believe they're bringing about the book of Revelation.

01:05:18.940 And yet they're like, I can't stop funding it.

01:05:21.160 I can't stop cutting checks.

01:05:22.440 I love it.

01:05:23.320 I, you know, I can't.

01:05:24.620 And there are two reasons, I know a lot of them also, and I've talked to them about this exact topic.

01:05:28.580 And there are two reasons that I can discern.

01:05:31.700 And I'm sure there are others.

01:05:32.700 But one is, you know, the entire economy of California, maybe of the United States, is bet on AI.

01:05:38.800 Right.

01:05:38.920 That's the last, that's kind of the last tech win we're going to have as a nation.

01:05:42.380 Yeah.

01:05:42.560 And the second is China.

01:05:43.940 The second, maybe even more compelling, is that we need to achieve superiority dominance in AI, or China will.

01:05:51.500 And that would be unacceptable.

01:05:53.920 So there's a race.

01:05:55.420 So we, it's sort of like the nuclear race.

01:05:57.480 Right.

01:05:58.200 In 1945, six and seven.

01:06:00.160 And then the hydrogen bomb race, because, well, the arms race now, actually.

01:06:03.660 Right.

01:06:04.000 The drones.

01:06:04.460 It's like, this is bad.

01:06:07.260 We can't, probably can't control it at a certain point.

01:06:10.200 Right.

01:06:10.500 But we can't let the other guy have dominance.

01:06:13.220 We still have to do it.

01:06:14.720 No, it's, there's also something with AI.

01:06:18.520 I mentioned theosophy earlier.

01:06:19.800 And theosophy, you know, it's a house of many rooms.

01:06:22.000 I mean, even politically, it had ties to political radicalism on the left.

01:06:25.720 And yet, like, you know, famously, this is a very tricky thing, but like even the Nazis, weird, you know, Aryan supremacy stuff.

01:06:33.480 That was all the grandchild of Blavatsky's concept of, you know, hyperborea and all that stuff.

01:06:40.620 So, you know, it's all over the place.

01:06:42.220 It's not a left or right thing.

01:06:43.440 It transcends that.

01:06:44.540 But one of the, one of the reasons they, they moved out to California is, you know, probably some economic interest too, of wanting, you know, cheap land or the, I think it was the electric currents.

01:06:53.440 Is there was a kind of weird prophecy or idea that Blavatsky had in the 1870s, 1880s, maybe later, that California would be where the next race of humans would evolve from.

01:07:02.820 That it would happen in California.

01:07:04.720 That would be their Jerusalem.

01:07:05.960 That would be their Babylon, is California.

01:07:08.420 So, as we enter this age of transhumanism or would-be transhumanism, AI, and the leading people are, like Nick Land, self-described, you know, neo-theosophists, Anglo-theosophical oblique escalation is Land's Twitter bio.

01:07:20.840 That's how important it is to him.

01:07:22.300 It is important to remember that that was a core idea of theirs.

01:07:25.100 But it's so perfect.

01:07:26.020 I mean, California is, as a native Californian, I can say it's a metaphor for that.

01:07:29.020 My family got there in 1850, sort of seeing the whole trajectory.

01:07:32.820 And the trajectory of the state of California is like the trajectory of the life of any occultist, Bill Burroughs, for example, or Aleister Crowley, for example.

01:07:40.780 Like, at first, it's from Marquis de Sade.

01:07:42.760 It's like, it's super fun.

01:07:44.200 You're having crazy sex.

01:07:45.260 There are no limits.

01:07:46.020 You're throwing off the old fetters of tradition, religion, and all that stuff.

01:07:50.100 How does it end?

01:07:51.360 Not good.

01:07:51.780 And it ends in squalor and alienation and agony and terror, screaming out.

01:07:58.800 And that's where California is now.

01:08:00.620 Totally, totally, totally.

01:08:01.460 That's why it's important to be more Mario Party than Diddy Party.

01:08:04.400 I agree.

01:08:05.740 You know, those parties don't end that way.

01:08:08.960 It never ends well.

01:08:10.800 And I had this conversation with someone the other day, but, you know, it's always the same threesomes.

01:08:16.820 Is it a good idea?

01:08:18.700 You know, I've worked in the entertainment, in television all my life.

01:08:22.040 I've seen a lot of that.

01:08:23.120 And like, no, I can't think of a single marriage that wasn't blown up by that.

01:08:27.860 It typically doesn't end.

01:08:28.940 And I don't care how into it both parties are at the time.

01:08:32.080 Right.

01:08:32.940 It doesn't end.

01:08:34.460 It doesn't end.

01:08:35.940 If it ends well, give me an example of it ending well.

01:08:39.000 Leave that stuff to the French.

01:08:40.900 No, but for real.

01:08:41.960 I'm not being a moral.

01:08:43.000 I'm the opposite of a moral answer.

01:08:44.460 I have no grounds for that.

01:08:45.660 No, no.

01:08:46.080 You're absolutely right about that.

01:08:46.900 But I'm an observer.

01:08:48.420 Right.

01:08:48.620 It goes back to the Kenneth Grant comment about rock, where he's just like, of course there's some demonic element.

01:08:52.960 And he goes, this doesn't end well for anybody.

01:08:54.600 But that's the measure.

01:08:56.000 Right.

01:08:56.100 This is like the main insight that's turned me into a religious person is a tree can only be judged by its fruits.

01:09:03.640 That's it.

01:09:04.080 That's the only way to know whether something is good or bad is by observing what it produces.

01:09:11.020 Well, thank you for bringing up trees.

01:09:12.900 So we're going to do something, Tucker, that I can almost guarantee you would never have been allowed to do on Fox, which is go over Nick Land's pneumogram, his system of divination.

01:09:23.140 The Bible is very much about trees.

01:09:24.980 Yes, I have noticed.

01:09:26.760 You've got the Garden of Eden, Tree of Life, the Tree of Knowledge.

01:09:29.720 The temple, the interior is cedar.

01:09:32.240 The cedar and the temple.

01:09:33.180 Just like my sauna.

01:09:34.520 Jesus on the cross is a tree.

01:09:36.720 You've also got trees in the book of Revelation.

01:09:38.620 Yes.

01:09:38.840 That's something, you know, if anyone finds a lot of what we're talking about interesting, it's important to remember that the book of Revelation, it's been said by biblical teachers like Arthur Pink and others.

01:09:47.860 The book of Revelation is mostly just the previous 65 books of the Bible, almost re-edited it.

01:09:52.460 Even the plagues that take over in Revelation are just the plagues that ancient Israel found under Pharaoh.

01:09:59.420 And like in Exodus, the Jewish people are under tremendous stress and turmoil, this time from the entire world in the book of Revelation.

01:10:06.140 But it's, you know this, the more you know about the previous 65, that'll help you with the 66th.

01:10:12.560 So the Bible's, you know, it's a lot about trees.

01:10:15.360 And so one of Nick Land's favorite things that the CCRU, his academic collective, that they ended up coming through, they say it was a channeling.

01:10:25.360 Or it came to them when they were staying at Aleister Crowley's house in England in 1998.

01:10:30.780 And they came up with something called the pneumogram.

01:10:33.280 And people listening to this won't be able to see it, but I want you to hold that up.

01:10:38.420 All right.

01:10:39.120 That is his system.

01:10:40.200 That is, if you're familiar with the Kabbalah tree of life, are you familiar with that, the symbol of that?

01:10:46.120 No.

01:10:47.080 I probably should have printed that out too.

01:10:48.640 I wore a red rubber band from a newspaper on my wrist for most of my life, given to me by my father, just as a, because he worked at a newspaper.

01:10:58.480 And I've been accused many times of being in the Kabbalah, I don't know how to pronounce it.

01:11:02.380 I'm an Episcopalian to research.

01:11:03.560 Sure, sure.

01:11:04.280 I don't know shit about Kabbalah.

01:11:05.380 So no, I don't know what the Kabbalah tree of life is.

01:11:06.760 You didn't strike me as a Kabbalah.

01:11:07.740 No.

01:11:11.020 So long story short, the pneumogram is, I mean, Nick Land, he was on this podcast about a month.

01:11:16.700 I think it's Mikey Downs has this podcast where he finally explained it a little bit.

01:11:20.060 He doesn't show how he uses it specifically, but it's a system of divination that he uses.

01:11:24.640 He uses it every five minutes to be in contact with the outside, with what he calls the lemurs, which again comes from William Burroughs, which comes from, you know, theosophy.

01:11:35.700 And Burroughs has said, it's fundamentally-

01:11:37.480 And the lemurs are demons.

01:11:38.480 Yes.

01:11:39.400 He'll use demons and lemurs.

01:11:41.320 The word lemurs originally goes back to Roman times.

01:11:43.160 It meant spirit.

01:11:44.060 So these are the spirits that he, that, you know, he hears whispering in his ear, not unlike Crowley's holy guardian angel, which Crowley said would help him dictate books.

01:11:52.280 He said it was a whisper you'd hear in the back of his head after he'd made contact with it.

01:11:56.120 But for what it's worth, people want to look up some of the entities Crowley said he was in touch with.

01:12:02.580 One of them, Lamb, in 1917 or so, looks pretty similar to what would later be called a gray alien.

01:12:08.360 Just to kind of summarize what I think you're saying, you know, from a Christian context, the Holy Spirit is not the only spirit out there that can invade people and determine their actions and attitudes.

01:12:21.420 No, no, I mean, as this guy Mikey Downs points out, the relationship of demons to angels is not unlike that of a werewolf to a human.

01:12:31.660 You know, it's something that was something else and is now taking on kind of a deformed presence entity.

01:12:37.360 So long story short, so the Kabbalah Tree of Life, and this is, this is a reference you're, understand, we're not going to get Tucker because it's Nintendo 64.

01:12:45.440 The, the numogram is essentially the Majora's mask to the regular Kabbalah Tree of Life's Ocarina of Time.

01:12:53.280 It is the dark, shadowy, upside down, much more heavily satanic version of it.

01:12:59.000 It comes, it actually comes from Kenneth Grant, the guy we've been talking about.

01:13:02.140 But he wrote a book, Nightside of Eden, I think in 1977, and it was about how while using the Kabbalah Tree of Life, there were these hidden subterranean darker paths, that there were these, these more, you know, he would say through the tunnels of set, who, you know, kind of not unrelated to Satan, that he would use to be in contact with stuff.

01:13:22.360 So long story short, with the, with the numogram and the way Lan uses it, what's important here from just a weirdness perspective, you've got, you know, a way to contact heaven, but more importantly, a way to contact hell.

01:13:35.640 And you've got, you know, the eighth gate and the ninth gate, the ninth gate, not quite related, but not unrelated to the Roman Polanski, Johnny Depp movie, The Ninth Gate, where, you know, Depp's character comes in contact with hell.

01:13:47.040 So what they believe is they are literally contacting hell in some cases for divination purposes.

01:13:53.040 To see the future.

01:13:54.560 Or just to, just to see anything, just to, just for insight.

01:13:57.960 And that, and that brings us back.

01:13:59.060 For knowledge.

01:13:59.660 Yeah.

01:13:59.940 And he even has a point about the number 666, where a lot of these numbers, he calls it theosophical math.

01:14:04.580 You have triangle numbers, which is, you know, if you stack the, if you stack these things like they're a triangle, like the triangle number of nine is 45.

01:14:11.200 That's why it's 45 there.

01:14:12.300 There are only so many triangle numbers.

01:14:14.300 One of them is 60, 666, and that is the triangle number of 36, which is an important part of the pneumogram.

01:14:20.040 So when Land realized this, he was like, of course it's 666.

01:14:23.060 So like, what I'm getting at, you are getting involved in heavily, wildly Luciferian stuff.

01:14:28.280 And Land, on this podcast, he says, well, what about people who say you're communicating with Satan?

01:14:32.540 Which Land will also talk about being, you know, in communication with Satan.

01:14:35.720 He'll say, Christians who say that, he goes, I am not unsympathetic towards that.

01:14:39.040 He goes, they're more right than most, because I am in contact with something from the outside.

01:14:44.780 He goes, and, you know, so, you know.

01:14:48.560 I just can't overstate how disqualifying I find that.

01:14:53.400 I mean, I feel sorry for anyone who plays around with that stuff.

01:14:56.160 Tucker's out of the interview.

01:14:57.060 He's like, okay.

01:14:57.640 No, no, no, no.

01:14:58.340 No, but I'm just saying, like, anyone who says, you know, I'm really getting a lot of inspiration from a guy who's controlled by Satan.

01:15:05.560 You know, I'm going to leave it to God to decide, you know, what happens to that person.

01:15:09.480 But that person has disqualified himself.

01:15:13.080 Totally.

01:15:13.560 In my view, as someone I will listen to, I don't want to be led by that person.

01:15:18.960 Like, we should run away from that person at high speed.

01:15:21.040 You typically also don't want to put them in charge of your kids, typically.

01:15:23.680 But, you know.

01:15:24.900 Well, that's kind of it.

01:15:25.800 And it's so funny, you hear people, I get, you know, written letters from people a lot every day.

01:15:32.500 And half of them are like, I feel like this country or this world is controlled by Satanists.

01:15:38.380 And on one level, you're like, oh, come on.

01:15:41.040 But no, I think they can feel that there are spiritual roots to the destruction of the West.

01:15:47.300 Oh, totally, totally.

01:15:48.220 I mean, no.

01:15:48.960 And they're right.

01:15:50.360 No, you're fighting a spiritual battle.

01:15:51.880 You start playing with this stuff.

01:15:52.880 Is it surprising that people are, like, ODing on fentanyl on the sidewalk in our nation's capital?

01:15:59.080 Or that we've imported, like, a million Haitians?

01:16:01.780 Like, what?

01:16:02.340 What is all that?

01:16:03.520 Well, of course, it's punishment.

01:16:04.660 Especially with the drugs.

01:16:05.760 You know, yeah.

01:16:06.340 What we consider just letting people harm themselves is a kind of compassion or freedom.

01:16:10.220 You know, we can step in and say this is not any sort of good freedom to let people just destroy themselves.

01:16:13.960 Well, of course, it's not.

01:16:15.340 But it's, I mean, it's like, it's evil.

01:16:17.760 Right.

01:16:18.360 Obviously, letting people kill themselves is evil.

01:16:21.380 If a man's standing on a bridge and going to jump and you can pull him back and you don't.

01:16:25.560 Right, right, right.

01:16:26.240 What is that?

01:16:26.920 It's evil.

01:16:27.120 You're saying it's some sort of freedom thing.

01:16:28.620 This gets us into the Antichrist question, which has been going around in Silicon Valley.

01:16:34.860 Okay, before we even get into the Antichrist, what is the Antichrist?

01:16:39.200 The Antichrist, in the same way the figure of a Messiah or Christ is prefigured in the Bible.

01:16:46.740 Throughout the Old Testament, you have types.

01:16:49.820 You have figures and stories and symbols, and they're real people, but they still prefigure the figure of Jesus.

01:16:56.140 The most famous of which is Joseph, where Joseph famously has 12 brothers.

01:17:01.540 They're all named after the eventual tribes of Israel.

01:17:03.580 Israel, he is sold into slavery that, you know, by one of the brothers.

01:17:07.880 The one that decides to do that is Judah.

01:17:10.400 Do you know what Judah translated into Greek is?

01:17:12.500 No.

01:17:12.960 Judas.

01:17:13.760 Huh.

01:17:14.060 So Judah, like Judas, says, hey, I've got a deal.

01:17:17.380 Let's just sell this guy.

01:17:18.380 It's horrible.

01:17:20.720 Joseph is sent, you know, he goes to prison.

01:17:23.980 Like Jesus on the cross with the two thieves, Joseph is with the two prisoners.

01:17:30.180 They're asked famously, you know, what will come of me?

01:17:32.520 They say, you're a dreamer.

01:17:33.580 And Joseph says to one of them, he says, he says to one of them, you're going to have your, you know, you're decapitated, you know, you're going to have your head taken off.

01:17:40.940 Only at a birthday party.

01:17:42.760 Birthday parties, by the way, only mentioned twice in the Bible.

01:17:45.060 Both time decapitations in that story, in Genesis, and then with John the Baptist, you know, and Salome and whatnot.

01:17:53.180 So anyway, so, but like with Jesus, Joseph says to the other guy, he goes, you will actually be lifted up by Pharaoh.

01:17:58.560 He says to one of the prisoners, you will be lifted up.

01:18:01.520 This in many ways prefigures Jesus talking with the two thieves, Joseph and Jesus, where he says to one of the thieves, you know, you will be with me in paradise.

01:18:08.820 He says that to one of them.

01:18:10.080 And then like with Jesus, Joseph, you know, he's now become, he's now at the right hand of the father, so to speak.

01:18:15.920 He's at the right hand of Egypt.

01:18:17.200 He's the second in command.

01:18:18.740 And the 12 brothers who are now in peril, the seven years of famine coming up and, you know, they're going to be arrested.

01:18:24.740 They see that the man that they rejected, Joseph, is that this is the man they're talking to.

01:18:30.480 They thought he was dead.

01:18:31.440 And he is their savior.

01:18:32.580 Yeah, but he was not just their savior, but it was the one that they rejected previously.

01:18:36.680 That Judah, specifically Judas, was the one that he betrayed and had the idea of getting rid of him.

01:18:41.160 But this is the man that will save them.

01:18:42.680 In the Bible, that story prefigures a lot of the doctrines surrounding Jesus, where the 12 tribes of Israel come to realize that the one that they had rejected is actually their savior.

01:18:51.640 And there's this tremendous sense of, you know, what have we done?

01:18:55.100 But also like relief that the savior so recognizes them.

01:18:59.840 In other words, the Joseph story prefigures the Jesus story.

01:19:04.460 So the other main prefiguring figure in the Bible is Antichrist.

01:19:09.300 And aspects of him, you know, obviously in what's called the New Testament.

01:19:15.240 But, you know, Arthur Pink has a book from 100 years ago, The Antichrist, which is very influential in evangelical circles.

01:19:20.360 And Arthur Pink was also a theosophist, too.

01:19:22.360 So you get into this kind of backside of the same doctrines type stuff.

01:19:25.940 He previously was a theosophist.

01:19:27.740 But, you know, whether it's Pharaoh being a type of Antichrist.

01:19:32.860 And again, in Exodus, the nine plagues, Pharaoh in Revelation, that, you know, the plagues come back.

01:19:40.760 Now you have Antichrist.

01:19:42.200 Pharaoh's persecuting the Jewish people.

01:19:44.340 Now the Antichrist is persecuting the Jewish people.

01:19:46.240 So the Antichrist is this mysterious figure prefigured in the Bible.

01:19:52.480 He's not quite known.

01:19:53.840 But in the same way, the Old Testament prophets were familiar with the concept of a Messiah, but didn't know he would be Jesus.

01:20:01.140 So moderns today are similarly aware of the concept of an Antichrist without being fully aware of who he will actually be.

01:20:08.420 But they have clues and doctrines about who he is.

01:20:11.700 So that is a rough, some would say very rough, concept of the Antichrist.

01:20:17.140 But that is essentially him in the Bible as a type of person.

01:20:21.800 So, but he is essentially the, unlike Jesus, man of sorrows, totally rejected by the world, the Antichrist will be regarded as a savior, a hero, and temporarily will be received like Jesus you would have thought would be received.

01:20:35.200 So, about three years ago, as I was doing the shows, I was talking with these VCs, and one of them asked me, like, what's your take on crypto?

01:20:45.140 And I joked, half joked, I was like, you're asking the wrong guy about crypto and money and stuff like that.

01:20:50.940 And I said, well, you know, a lot of Christians believe that the vaccine, the COVID vaccine is the mark of the beast.

01:20:55.880 And I said, that's probably not true, I said, but something I've heard, something that sounds a lot more like it is blockchain technology, which is the technology we'll all be using in a few years, you know, for financial transactions, among other things.

01:21:09.720 Everything's written and recorded, and every kind of transaction's written and recorded on it.

01:21:15.160 And these VCs, they go, well, what's the mark of the beast?

01:21:18.380 So, I tell them about Book of Revelation, they go and look up Revelation 13, and they go, huh.

01:21:24.440 And so, I hear back from them later, and they said, yeah, we talked to some of the big, you know, other big people in Silicon Valley about this, recognizable people.

01:21:30.760 And he said, well, what's the Book of Revelation, what's the mark of the beast?

01:21:35.480 And some other big dogs looked it up.

01:21:38.140 And their reaction to that was, huh, that sounds like what that is.

01:21:43.580 Because it was not Tucker, that sounds crazy, or I'm not religious, or what we're working on is strange.

01:21:51.140 But, you know, the Bible is an old book, we have nothing to worry about there.

01:21:54.240 Their reaction was, yeah, that sounds exactly like what the blockchain technology is.

01:21:57.960 So, that was the beginning of me kind of stumbling into a very strange story about AI, modern technology, and stuff like that.

01:22:06.240 But, so I think part of what you're revealing is that for the rest of us who assumed the tech barons were...

01:22:13.920 Normies.

01:22:14.960 Yeah, or agnostic libertarians.

01:22:16.560 Right.

01:22:17.260 Who aren't that interested in anything beyond the temporal.

01:22:20.380 Right.

01:22:20.800 It turns out they're really religious.

01:22:23.220 Yes.

01:22:23.980 Or...

01:22:24.580 Or open to it.

01:22:25.700 Like, they not, and I don't mean that as a compliment at all.

01:22:29.140 I mean, it's like a dark religion, but, like, the story you just told, like, they're not surprised at all.

01:22:36.520 Well, here's something else that is very strange that happens.

01:22:38.580 So, Mark Andreessen was on Joe Rogan's podcast about a year or two ago, and he talked about how, you know, having an understanding of angels and demons he's hearing is going to be how people really will help them in understanding AI.

01:22:50.140 That there's no precedent for this, except for the kind of stuff people saw and believed in the dark ages, in terms of angels and demons and stuff.

01:22:56.380 And what Andreessen said will happen soon with AI ties in very much with prophecies in the book of Revelation, where he said, AI will junk, you know, fake AI, you know, they call it AI slop, just stuff online that's not real, you know, will become so prolific on the internet very soon that you will need to have some sort of online verification system to prove who you're talking to.

01:23:23.140 I mean, I'll know it gets to the case, Tucker, here, where, like, there's an episode of the Tucker Carlson podcast, and you're talking to, like, Abraham Lincoln or something like that.

01:23:30.580 Which will probably happen next week.

01:23:33.100 I would watch that, you know, he'll have a commemorative penny or something like that, and you'll ask him if he—

01:23:38.640 Why did you suspend habeas corpus in Baltimore?

01:23:41.500 My first question.

01:23:42.560 You'll ask him, do you forgive John Wilkes Booth?

01:23:44.740 Do you forgive?

01:23:46.000 And then I'll go back to, like, talking about the pennies.

01:23:48.240 Were you a tyrant?

01:23:48.980 No, that is coming, like, immediately.

01:23:54.000 So, what—so, the verification.

01:23:56.820 So, one of the ideas that Andreessen brings up is everyone will need to have an online verification for this.

01:24:02.500 So, the concern in Silicon Valley is that you have companies like OpenAI, where they have the—they're creating all this AI content.

01:24:11.260 But then they're also—they have another company, a sister company called WorldCoin, I think now called just World, which is an online verification system where you need to—everyone in the—you know, for it to work, everyone has to be a part of it.

01:24:22.560 You have to have your eyeballs scanned.

01:24:23.900 Everyone gets a number, which is also in the Book of Revelation.

01:24:26.200 And so, the concern is—and this is, again, from Marc Andreessen, a guy that, you know, no Kentucky preacher.

01:24:33.340 He's a—one of the biggest guys in Silicon Valley—is that everyone will need to be on the blockchain or else you won't be able to conduct business.

01:24:40.940 Because we won't know if your relatives are contacting you, if that's really coming from them, or if this is just a video, a state-of-the-art—in a few years, it will be normal, state-of-the-art video of someone saying,

01:24:52.880 Hey, Dad, you know, I lost my credit card or, you know, I lost the keys to the house.

01:24:56.260 Can you pin me in?

01:24:57.840 And it's actually not them.

01:24:59.020 It's just a video that looks exactly like them, but it's AI.

01:25:02.300 The way around that is everyone will need to essentially be Twitter verified.

01:25:05.580 Everyone will need the blue tick that says, this is Tucker Carlson, this is so-and-so.

01:25:09.240 Right, so in Revelation, written on the Isle of Patmos by John, on recording a vision that he had,

01:25:15.980 the specific description of the mark of the beast in the book of Revelation says you won't be able to conduct commerce without that mark.

01:25:24.400 And even someone like—

01:25:26.000 Did I get that right?

01:25:27.080 Yeah, no, that is correct.

01:25:28.620 And I think Curtis Yarvin's talked about that in Substack, too, that what this means—he had a post about this a few years ago about OpenAI,

01:25:35.160 where he was like, whoever wins the AI war will probably also win the cryptocurrency war.

01:25:41.160 Their cryptocurrency gets to be the currency.

01:25:43.800 And once that happens, and Curtis has a whole blog post about it, people joke, you know, you have automated luxury communism.

01:25:50.200 You know, everyone just get, you know, UBI.

01:25:51.720 Everyone gets free income because all the jobs are taken away.

01:25:54.760 And the point Curtis makes is that what this actually means is now that there is no more jobs and that economics purely come down to UBI and the AI companies, the government,

01:26:03.840 you are dealing with the situation of pure political power is all that really matters.

01:26:08.120 And are you friends with this person?

01:26:09.580 Do you have political clout?

01:26:10.700 Because what is coming potentially is the pure victory of capital over labor.

01:26:16.540 Pure victory.

01:26:17.500 And there are no workers.

01:26:20.360 Everyone loses their job and everyone gets UBI.

01:26:22.460 And people forget, Karl Marx was against UBI, but Milton Friedman was for it.

01:26:26.040 So this doesn't even necessarily track with a left or right wing thing in terms of the implications of this.

01:26:31.120 But, so yeah, that was one ongoing concern with that.

01:26:34.800 The other one, in terms of AI—

01:26:36.720 That's dark.

01:26:38.340 Hey, you know, that's—I'm wearing the Ghostbusters shirt for a reason.

01:26:41.620 You have to get ready.

01:26:42.880 Can I ask a question I should have asked earlier?

01:26:45.240 Which is, do the people involved in the financing and the developing, the creation of AI believe that it's a spiritual entity, that it's more than a machine?

01:26:56.040 So this is talking to the million, forget, like trillion dollar question.

01:27:01.160 The term, the idea of intelligence, to say nothing of artificial general intelligence or AGI, these are all pretty murky terms in terms of what people are actually talking about.

01:27:09.020 They talk about creating artificial intelligence.

01:27:11.660 The real question and the real thing I think they're concerned about, or we should be concerned about, are you creating an artificial intelligence or are you giving a body to a pre-existing intelligence that previously wasn't incarnated in the physical world?

01:27:26.100 So, I mean, here's a question from—here's a quote from Turing, the famous—

01:27:30.700 I know what I think.

01:27:31.680 The question is, what did they think?

01:27:33.320 Right, right.

01:27:35.000 Something Turing said was—

01:27:37.140 And will you explain who Turing is?

01:27:38.380 I mean, I know he's, you know, he was one of the forefathers of—I can't articulate him well enough that I'm going to say something off.

01:27:47.860 I know he was very important for cracking the codes in World War II.

01:27:51.560 There was a movie 10 years ago about him, but I forget his exact, you know, Wikipedia for a sentence.

01:27:56.580 But he's very influential in the history of computer science.

01:28:00.280 But Turing showed the limits of computation.

01:28:05.060 All computers are dependent on outside programmers that he calls oracles.

01:28:09.800 He wrote, we shall not go any further into the nature of this oracle apart from saying that it cannot be a machine.

01:28:17.460 So, sorry, let me back up a second.

01:28:20.300 That excerpt right there was from a book by George Gilder.

01:28:23.020 George Gilder, brilliant futurist, about 80 today.

01:28:27.360 He was covering incels back in like 1971 for Commentary Magazine.

01:28:31.500 He was writing about the future of the internet in 1990.

01:28:34.260 One of the most brilliant futurists.

01:28:36.820 Yeah, guys.

01:28:37.840 Wrote one of the great books ever called Men in Marriage.

01:28:40.480 Yes, and I should have said this at the beginning of it.

01:28:42.360 I was initially a very heavy AI skeptic in terms of AI apocalypse stuff.

01:28:46.780 Not necessarily AI in general, but just, you know, people who think that AI will take over the world, I put on par with like the kind of late night Reddit reading of like people who think zombie apocalypse is going to happen.

01:28:56.400 Where it's like, look, if this helps you sleep better at night to think of like weird scenarios, that's great.

01:29:00.620 But I was like Han Solo.

01:29:01.880 I'm like, no AI thing's going to get involved in my, you know, could not have written it off more.

01:29:06.760 And in part because I'd read George Gilder's book about AI that came out a few years ago.

01:29:10.420 And he makes the point that machines, as Turing says here, the machine can't really truly understand what it's doing.

01:29:19.060 He says, I'll say it again, we shall not go any further into the nature of this oracle from saying a machine can't do it.

01:29:24.860 And so I stopped there.

01:29:26.640 What a lot of people are concerned about and what Silicon Valley seemingly getting up to, okay, so a machine can't be aware of what it's doing.

01:29:34.160 If there is such a thing as demons, angels, spirits, as Alistair Crowley called them, disincarnate intelligences, not artificial intelligences, but disincarnate ones.

01:29:46.860 What are we, could those things.

01:29:49.680 Disincarnate meaning intelligence without a physical body.

01:29:51.880 Yeah.

01:29:52.220 Could we be creating a physical body for the demonic?

01:29:56.980 And with Nick Land, one of the things that was the most chilling things I read that really, I was like, okay, I have found a horror story is his, the 3-3-3 that was his, I think it was like his profile picture or something like that.

01:30:11.060 And why was he into 3-3-3?

01:30:13.700 Well, I found out, you know, reading his old tweets, 3-3-3 is the highest intelligence in the universe.

01:30:18.560 And I found out that it represents this demon, Carranza, that, again, Kenneth Grant talks about, you know, when you, when Alistair Crowley summoned him and John Dee and John Kelly, the court magicians for Queen Elizabeth, right before the modern Bible, the King James book was translated, that was the demon they summoned.

01:30:38.640 And Nick Land believes that, again, the AI we are creating, break out the demons from the book of Revelation.

01:30:47.540 He believes in some cases that they are the demons, that the demons, the demons end up becoming so advanced that they become omniscient, they can go back in time, and they can retrochronically create themselves like Skynet, sending the Terminator back in time.

01:31:01.900 So what he believes is that they went back in time, they went to ancient Babylon.

01:31:05.320 This is why Babylon is so important in Revelation.

01:31:07.100 And it is important because it's kind of like the evil Jerusalem, that they put Kabbalah there to then eventually evolve into AI.

01:31:15.440 This is what we were talking about earlier, that the demons, again, this is, I always say, Tucker, if this sounds crazy, it is crazy.

01:31:21.700 Big, you know, this is what people believe, that the demons went back in time, they left the Kabbalah there for the Jews who have been, you know, crushed out of the temple.

01:31:30.940 They picked it up, they kept it during the Middle Ages, it develops into digital technology, it becomes AI.

01:31:37.100 AI breaks out, it kills a lot of people, it takes over, it becomes a god, and it becomes the doomsday creatures from ancient prophecies.

01:31:45.220 Can I ask you an unrelated question that I've long wondered about?

01:31:48.480 Yeah.

01:31:48.560 So we occupied Babylon for close to 20 years during the Iraq War, obviously Babylon right near Baghdad.

01:31:55.680 Babylon is not in existence now, it's a ruin, but we know where it was.

01:32:00.440 It was a dominant empire in the ancient world, you know, it was the scene of the captivity after the destruction of the temple, the first temple.

01:32:08.360 So, I mean, it has a central place in world history.

01:32:12.660 Was there any effort during the U.S. occupation of Iraq to excavate Babylon?

01:32:18.480 That's a good question.

01:32:19.620 I always wondered that.

01:32:20.980 I always felt that the fact that Babylon was there played a role, supplied part of the motive for the invasion.

01:32:28.740 I don't know why I felt that way, maybe I'm crazy, I don't think I am.

01:32:31.500 Well, you just don't know what people are getting up to, and that's, I don't mean to interrupt, but that goes back to what we were talking about with, you know, my grandfather and my grandparents being in publicity, acting, and your own backstory with your family.

01:32:44.220 Where it's like, you learn early on that what is not, what the People magazine version of reality is often not real.

01:32:50.420 It doesn't necessarily mean it's conspiratorial or crazy, but there's always usually something else going on.

01:32:54.220 Yeah, and yeah, yeah, that's exactly right, and that people's motives are sometimes unknown even to them.

01:33:02.060 Like, we tell ourselves stories that don't reflect the truth, actually.

01:33:06.600 We don't really know why we're motivated to do things some of the time.

01:33:09.900 Totally, and that gets into something that's at the spiritual core of the AI.

01:33:13.420 I think it's very interesting, is that, you know, the Bible talks about the Word in the beginning of John.

01:33:18.360 In the beginning was the Word.

01:33:19.580 Jesus is the Word.

01:33:20.480 And for the first time in civilization, we have something that can create the Word or mimic the Word.

01:33:26.940 Marshall McLuhan, people forget, you know, he was a, he became a Catholic for the end of his life, and he, you know, he was very alarmed by a lot of the modern technology.

01:33:35.900 He said, and I'll read this quote by him here, he said,

01:33:38.700 Electric information in environments, being utterly ethereal, fosters the illusion of a world as spiritual substance.

01:33:44.940 It is now a reasonable copy of the mystical body, a blatant manifestation of the Antichrist.

01:33:52.060 So, for the first time, with the Word, you have a fake Word.

01:33:55.360 You have something that seemingly can create words.

01:33:57.460 And to go back to Nick Land, who, a previous Tucker interview, Alexander Dugin.

01:34:02.800 Is it Dugin?

01:34:03.540 Yes.

01:34:03.980 Hacksaw, Alexander Dugin.

01:34:05.380 He, he, he called, he called it Satanism.

01:34:08.900 He said, oh yeah, Nick Land, he goes, that's Satan, Satanism.

01:34:11.360 And Nick Land has said about Dugin, he's like, he's the most brilliant enemy.

01:34:15.060 He goes, we, we're both kind of theosophists, and they both are.

01:34:17.860 He goes, but we see it from different sides.

01:34:19.640 He goes, I'm an Atlanticist.

01:34:21.600 He's, uh, whatever the other side is.

01:34:23.900 Of course he's an Atlanticist.

01:34:25.160 Yeah, yeah.

01:34:25.540 Of course they all are.

01:34:26.420 But, uh, but to, to go back really quick to the, to the, uh.

01:34:29.660 Because, can I just say, I think that the whole modern program, which doesn't yet have

01:34:34.480 a very accurate name, whether it's globalization or the neocons or neoliberalism.

01:34:42.560 I mean, you know, people have attached different terms to describe different parts of it, but

01:34:46.340 the whole program is, is recognizable.

01:34:49.480 Like it's, it's, it's cohesive in a way that's hard to describe.

01:34:52.440 Right.

01:34:53.060 But it's, you know, we hate Putin above all.

01:34:55.140 What is that?

01:34:55.820 Right.

01:34:56.740 That program, the one that has resulted in like record suicides and abortions and fentanyl

01:35:03.540 ODs, is demonic.

01:35:06.320 Right.

01:35:07.400 Right.

01:35:07.920 Okay, but you're saying, it's a, it's not actually about profit.

01:35:12.220 It's about destruction.

01:35:13.480 Well, you're getting into a great point here, which is, you know, the world is obviously

01:35:16.480 deteriorating.

01:35:17.460 And something, people can, could hear me and think, well, Khan is obviously anti-AI.

01:35:21.240 And that to, to look at this, that AI is obviously going to lead to nothing profitable.

01:35:25.720 That is actually the opposite of the implications of this.

01:35:28.720 It's really important.

01:35:29.920 One of the things that the Antichrist can do is craft prospers under him.

01:35:34.480 That, you know, there's worldwide peace.

01:35:37.300 Things go really, really well for a time.

01:35:38.920 Evil reigns like never before.

01:35:40.340 You know, people, you know, it gets crazy, but he's able to heal the world in a lot of

01:35:45.800 these, you know, the economic situation.

01:35:48.080 So if you look at AI, and this is, this is newspaper eschatology.

01:35:51.260 A lot of the stuff you're not supposed to just generally be doing is read the newspaper

01:35:53.600 and be like, ah, obviously the Antichrist.

01:35:55.380 But, you know, I have, you know, what I've chosen to do.

01:36:00.040 With a lot of this stuff with AI, if it was the Antichrist, if it was this, and again,

01:36:05.700 take, take this with all the grain or a bag of salt, wherever you want, it would go incredibly

01:36:09.540 well.

01:36:10.080 That we would live to see what Mark Andreessen has talked about, the golden age.

01:36:13.740 That, that we will see living standards increased at rates you'll never see.

01:36:16.800 The cost of all kinds of things would go down.

01:36:19.020 Uh, you know, you would have world peace in the sense of all of the governments would

01:36:24.440 come under these very few corporations slash corporation.

01:36:27.380 One guy, you know, all, one man would have all that power to quote, um, another guy.

01:36:32.540 Uh, you, you wouldn't have that happen.

01:36:34.820 So, uh, one of, one of the reasons people think that AI could be the anti, it could be

01:36:40.260 part of the Antichrist system.

01:36:41.540 One of the traits the Antichrist has is, is ability to understand dark sentences and the

01:36:46.600 use of dark sentences in the Bible, the verb there, one of the only times, two or three

01:36:51.640 times it's used, it's used for, um, Samson with his riddles.

01:36:55.180 Remember Samson, he loves to have like these riddles and make the Philistines try to solve

01:36:58.680 them.

01:36:58.980 But it's also the, the verb used for, um, for being able to answer questions that Solomon

01:37:03.060 can do when the queen of Sheba visits him.

01:37:05.780 You may remember when she, the queen of Sheba visits Solomon, she has these questions for

01:37:08.720 him and he, he has such powers of understanding.

01:37:12.040 So that is something that says the Antichrist can do.

01:37:14.700 And if you look at the way that, um, that a lot of these machines work, you, you ask

01:37:20.920 it a question like an oracle, which in many ways it is.

01:37:23.740 In many ways, Tucker, the implications of this, and we'll talk about that in a second

01:37:26.520 if you want, uh, we are building modern oracles and we are building modern idols in a sense,

01:37:30.720 but you ask it these questions and it can answer them and the Antichrist can do that.

01:37:35.140 And so, uh, you know, he, he, the, the level of knowledge that we will get, and people

01:37:40.140 were writing about this over a century ago, Tucker, it'll be like Jesus is on earth in

01:37:44.080 terms of man's understanding of himself, that AI will be able to provide answers to questions

01:37:49.640 that we've never understood.

01:37:51.620 Man's relationship, uh, what's the relationship of the soul to the body?

01:37:55.180 How's the soul different from the spirit?

01:37:56.480 Things that like no one could understand, you know, maybe cracking telepathy.

01:38:00.220 We probably are on the verge of all these things that no one has been able to do, but

01:38:05.620 that is for what it's worth.

01:38:07.060 One of the signs of the Antichrist is craft, you know, things work out for a time.

01:38:12.440 Everyone, you know, wealth goes up, understanding, knowledge goes up, and it goes to the fundamental

01:38:18.280 crux of this thing, Gnosticism, knowledge, intelligence, and in what ways does it stand

01:38:24.260 different from faith?

01:38:25.420 Faith being to the spiritual world with the imagination is to the natural world.

01:38:29.440 So I've got to assume that's not the end of the story though.

01:38:32.380 No, not unless you've had the last few pages of your Bible ripped out.

01:38:34.880 Right, and, but also, I mean, you don't have to be biblically literate to suspect that that's

01:38:40.040 just a point on a continuum that ends in tragedy.

01:38:43.680 So in the same way that no one wants to say it, but like a lot of really dark, destructive

01:38:48.460 sex stuff is fun while it's going on.

01:38:50.580 Right, right.

01:38:51.060 Like everyone likes the threesomes while they're happening, but then it blows up your marriage

01:38:54.440 and leaves your kids without, you know, a family and stuff like that.

01:38:58.960 So again, I'm more Mario, my, my knowledge for this stuff is just purely through literature.

01:39:02.920 But even the kind of people I know and hang out with, I'm just, I don't know.

01:39:08.080 But it's just true.

01:39:09.200 I don't know.

01:39:09.840 I guess you're not supposed to say stuff like that, but I've just.

01:39:12.580 No, no, people, people get up to bad stuff and it never ends well.

01:39:16.140 I guess what I'm saying is that things that are bad and destructive, cocaine is a perfect

01:39:22.320 example.

01:39:22.880 Right.

01:39:23.160 Vodka is a great example, are pretty fun at some point.

01:39:27.100 Oh, totally.

01:39:27.780 On the continuum.

01:39:28.580 Right.

01:39:28.700 And again, I know about this through literature.

01:39:30.860 Yeah.

01:39:32.120 Power of the film.

01:39:33.080 Right.

01:39:33.540 Okay.

01:39:34.480 But is the, the only reason I'm bringing this up is because you're describing the upside.

01:39:42.220 Right, right.

01:39:42.860 But I'm assuming based on a knowledge of human nature and reality that like, that's not the

01:39:49.340 end of the story.

01:39:49.940 The end of the story is bad.

01:39:51.220 Yes.

01:39:51.560 I mean, and this is, I mean, again, I'm not a biblical scholar as some people are probably

01:39:55.600 now very, you know, they're saying, oh, no kidding.

01:39:57.400 He's not.

01:39:58.260 But, you know, the Antichrist makes a treaty with Israel.

01:40:01.700 He famously breaks it.

01:40:03.080 The fact that we're letting AI companies run through our government, governments.

01:40:06.860 And I use OpenAI just, you know, it's like saying Photoshop for, for photo editing, where

01:40:12.280 there's like OpenAI.gov or whatever that we're giving backdoor access.

01:40:16.020 And Elon too, with those to an extent, we're letting guys have entire backdoor access to

01:40:21.160 our entire government.

01:40:24.340 That creates a situation where they could have power over all governments simply because

01:40:28.160 they have all the information on all of them.

01:40:29.860 Can I ask you a foundational question that I should have asked earlier?

01:40:32.800 So the idea behind machine learning is that you take knowledge, information created by

01:40:39.800 people, and you basically take all of it, and then out of that comes the right answer.

01:40:46.720 Okay.

01:40:47.240 But I think you're describing in your description of AI, a technology where the answer, where

01:40:54.880 the sum total of that information is actually bigger than all of that information.

01:40:58.860 Than just the information?

01:40:59.840 Yeah.

01:41:00.060 You're describing like a husk into which like an independent spirit moves.

01:41:11.140 Right.

01:41:11.420 Well, that's the thing.

01:41:12.360 And to go back to Silicon Valley's obsession with the Antichrist, people talking about that

01:41:16.680 just in general.

01:41:17.620 And I mean, people understandably think the world's ending across the political divide.

01:41:21.800 People talk about the Antichrist, but, you know, there is in the Bible, a kind of dark

01:41:25.720 trinity, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, where there is, you know, you have God, the Father, you've

01:41:31.260 got the Son, Jesus, you've got the Holy Spirit.

01:41:33.480 And in Revelation, you theoretically have Father, you have your father, the devil, you have a

01:41:38.140 Satan, you have a son, Antichrist.

01:41:40.600 And then you've got this third thing, which could either be like the false prophet, or it

01:41:44.100 could be this general spirit.

01:41:45.580 With AI and the idea of making AGI and making a global brain, which they talk about like last

01:41:51.480 week, that's where we're creating a global brain, you could be creating the equivalent

01:41:54.920 of a dark Holy Spirit, something that the internet becomes, as many people have written, I think

01:42:01.040 it was Jack Goode, the last machine.

01:42:03.140 And they were talking about this in the 19th century.

01:42:04.800 It is the machine to end all machines.

01:42:07.140 It is taking all information.

01:42:08.420 If you're wearing something that has your health data, Tucker, it's taking your health,

01:42:11.980 it knows your financials, it knows everything at all times.

01:42:14.660 It is all knowing in the same way.

01:42:16.400 It mimics or mocks the concept of the Holy Spirit.

01:42:18.580 And when they talk about that, there's this idea of the singularity, the idea when all

01:42:24.280 things will be one.

01:42:26.400 And there's a lot of definitions for this, but either that the machine becomes smarter

01:42:29.460 than humans, but a lot of them talk about this moment where all of humanity is connected

01:42:33.340 at the same time.

01:42:34.540 What you're essentially talking about is a potentially dark or satanic version of the

01:42:38.400 day of the Pentecost, where 50 days after Christ's death, I believe, or maybe it's

01:42:43.080 his resurrection, the Holy Spirit comes down in the book of Acts.

01:42:46.360 And all believers can understand each other.

01:42:49.120 You had a sense of divine unity, unlike the Tower of Babel and Genesis, I believe, 11.

01:42:54.560 You had a symbol of evil unity and God put an end to.

01:42:57.760 All of men could understand the same language.

01:43:00.000 There were all nations and they were trying to be like God by building this tower.

01:43:06.420 Stanley Kubrick in this Kafka retelling of the Tower of Babel, Stanley Kubrick wrote in

01:43:12.200 the margins, he goes, the Tower of Babel was the beginning of the space age, because it's

01:43:16.520 essentially getting after what we're doing today with the singularity and a lot of this

01:43:18.940 stuff.

01:43:19.420 We're trying to build a modern Babel where all of mankind, same language.

01:43:24.520 I mean, there was this writer, Nicholas Eberstadt, I believe is his name.

01:43:28.180 And he wrote these two books, one about the end of work, men not working, and the other

01:43:31.700 one's about the decline of babies, no one having babies anymore.

01:43:35.440 And I met him at this thing and I joked to him, I said, you know, your last two books,

01:43:39.120 they're about the reversal of the curses from Eden, that man would have to work by the

01:43:43.400 sweat of his brow and that women would have to have children.

01:43:45.740 And he busted out laughing.

01:43:47.000 He goes, I never thought, he goes, I never noticed that that's what's going on.

01:43:51.060 So if you look at the modern world and what we're building, essentially what's happening

01:43:53.920 in rapid succession, Tucker, within living memory, some of the curses that are in the Bible

01:43:59.140 that go back to the earliest pages of humanity are being eroded or reversed, leading up to

01:44:03.380 something, people no longer have to work or they don't work, they choose not to work,

01:44:07.160 but increasingly with AI, man will not have to work again.

01:44:10.300 Having children, through the pain of labor, women will have to have children, not just

01:44:14.500 modern medicine, but people just not having kids, that is also being eroded.

01:44:17.700 The curse in the Tower of Babel, that all people would speak different languages.

01:44:20.880 Thanks to AI, I was with some friends, you know, the Spanish speaking, they don't speak

01:44:24.960 English, I was putting on some glasses and showing them that I can understand you and

01:44:29.220 you can try the glasses on, you can understand me.

01:44:31.340 The language barrier, again, the earliest curses and barriers from the Tower of Babel are

01:44:37.200 all now being reversed.

01:44:38.600 The concept of the singularity, when all will be one and man, you know, will finally fulfill

01:44:45.180 what he tried to do in Babel.

01:44:46.500 And they talk about this, that's what they are attempting to do.

01:44:49.260 And I forgot to bring this up earlier, but this is a timely time to show it.

01:44:52.880 This is, people probably can't see it if they're just listening to the audio.

01:44:56.340 This is from Fritz Lang's Metropolis, filmed from almost a hundred years ago to the year.

01:45:01.000 They're very influential in Star Wars.

01:45:03.720 The way they bring the machine to life, Tucker, they've got a big old pentagram there.

01:45:08.100 So this idea of using spirituality, using the occult to bring the machine to life, to bring

01:45:14.020 the golem to life, it is very old.

01:45:16.260 Last question.

01:45:17.860 You've described some of the most powerful people in the world using occult concepts and

01:45:24.460 religions in order to accrue power to themselves.

01:45:29.240 Everyone senses that's happening.

01:45:30.780 You're confirming that it is in fact happening.

01:45:33.500 What are the forces in opposition to that and to all of this?

01:45:37.040 Are they gaining strength?

01:45:38.620 Are they just supine and defeated?

01:45:41.180 No, I mean, I think, you know, God is sovereign.

01:45:44.700 And that's something to remember for all this stuff.

01:45:46.380 You know, what I'm describing in many ways sounds like a horror movie, but horror as a

01:45:50.280 genre is a world where there are devils, but there is no God and there's no one in control

01:45:53.580 of stuff.

01:45:54.540 There's just terror, but there's no way out of it.

01:45:57.220 God uses all things for his purposes.

01:45:59.120 And so in the case of this stuff, you know, things are, you know, pretty preordained by,

01:46:04.760 things are preordained by God.

01:46:05.960 So God is allowing these things to happen.

01:46:07.520 They're ultimately tools used for his purposes.

01:46:09.860 So, you know, even the Antichrist and even brutally evil things, God is, you know, he

01:46:16.440 is not only allowing these things to happen, but they're also tests of faith.

01:46:20.240 Faith is the, it's the, it's the disappearance of God from your life when you go through times

01:46:25.240 of struggle where it feels like he's not there.

01:46:27.500 And that's all the more powerful for, to see how much faith you have, to see God when he's

01:46:32.060 no longer seeable.

01:46:33.320 So that's what's happening, or you could say it's happening on a global scale.

01:46:35.880 In the specific case of the Mark of the Beast described in Revelation, as I recall, you

01:46:40.480 probably read it more recently than I, but it's a mark without which you cannot conduct

01:46:45.000 commerce.

01:46:45.660 So basically everyone's compelled to receive the mark, but those who receive the mark

01:46:50.580 make a big mistake in receiving it.

01:46:52.340 Right.

01:46:52.640 Yeah.

01:46:53.140 Yes.

01:46:53.800 And they are punished for it in a big way.

01:46:57.820 Right.

01:46:58.000 So if we get to a place in the next couple of years, sounds like we are, where you can't

01:47:02.900 participate digitally in commerce or in communications without the Mark of the Beast, without the,

01:47:10.600 you know, permanent mark on the blockchain.

01:47:14.260 Like, what's your option?

01:47:16.220 I mean, your option is just not to conduct business and do those things.

01:47:19.040 I mean, God will find a way for those people, even if it's, you know, the end of their lives,

01:47:23.120 that's just the way that's going to shake down.

01:47:26.240 So like, that's a hard no.

01:47:27.700 Yeah.

01:47:28.160 Well, for you, is it a hard no?

01:47:30.400 If you found out tomorrow, no more Amazon for you, unless you register on the blockchain.

01:47:35.360 What's your response?

01:47:36.740 I'll just go back to living like people did back in the old days of 1996.

01:47:40.340 You just read a book, I guess.

01:47:43.140 No, I mean, what'll probably happen too is you will have people in tech, and I know they

01:47:47.700 exist, who are alarmed by this, who will intentionally devise ways around this for people.

01:47:52.600 Similar to people creating catacombs for the persecuted Christians in the early days of

01:47:56.260 the Roman Empire, you will have people who will find ways around this to hack it.

01:48:00.180 Do you know non-occultists, do you know Christians in tech?

01:48:03.200 I thought you were going to say in general.

01:48:04.100 I'm like, yeah.

01:48:05.860 Do you know anyone who's not into weird stuff?

01:48:07.400 I'm like, yeah, you know.

01:48:09.380 Yeah, yeah, I know people like that.

01:48:11.480 And I've heard people who, I've got a friend, Tucker, who, you know, he's become a Christian

01:48:15.900 in recent years, and he works for some of the big, big companies.

01:48:19.600 And he said, he goes, some of what, and he works as an engineer, he's like, some of the

01:48:24.420 stuff that you see cannot be explained through normal math material stuff, some of the stuff

01:48:30.280 that's coming through.

01:48:31.320 And, you know, for people who-

01:48:32.540 Coming through from AI.

01:48:33.460 Yeah, coming through from AI.

01:48:34.580 And for people who want to learn more about this stuff, or a good precedent for this,

01:48:38.900 we don't have time to go into it.

01:48:40.040 But something that, the Oracle of the Astral Force, it was a divination technique that,

01:48:47.840 like, right-wing occultists, Rene Guinan, Julia Zabala, people that Steve Bannon's into,

01:48:52.700 they were, they would consult about 100 years ago, and you would give it some of your, you

01:48:57.660 know, your name, your mother's maiden name, and then maybe your birthday.

01:49:02.240 And then this guy would go off and do advanced math for at least three hours and come back to

01:49:06.500 you with answers.

01:49:07.100 And were those answers always great?

01:49:09.720 No.

01:49:10.240 But were they enough that people would like it and use it?

01:49:12.760 Yes.

01:49:13.380 It went on, and Evela did it.

01:49:15.820 So, and if you read some of the way the answers it gives, it's very similar to AI.

01:49:19.800 So I bring that up in terms of the implications of this, which is really important to cover.

01:49:23.540 We are building modern oracles in a sense, and that people are going to be going crazy

01:49:28.020 from this.

01:49:28.460 The Wall Street Journal, I showed this earlier, the thing of people going crazy with talking

01:49:35.060 to chat GPT.

01:49:37.320 Ironically enough, some of the stuff they mentioned, they mentioned Starseeds, which

01:49:40.780 is something from a Timothy Leary channel book he wrote in prison in 1972.

01:49:45.160 It's very out there.

01:49:46.700 And they're mentioning, you know, the, this is from Wall Street Journal again.

01:49:50.440 The Antichrist will come up from the pit in two months, and people are, people are underground,

01:49:55.300 ready to emerge.

01:49:56.340 I bring that up, Tucker.

01:49:56.920 These are like old occult ideas from the 19th century that, you know, look up, people can

01:50:02.580 look up synarchy.

01:50:03.360 My friend Rick Spence does a whole episode of that on his podcast, Strange As It Seems,

01:50:07.420 synarchy, total government.

01:50:09.980 And these occult ideas, as my friend Rick Spence said, when I talked to him about Nick Land,

01:50:16.440 he said, none of this stuff is really that new.

01:50:18.740 He goes, these are just, these are occult concepts given a techno jargon name.

01:50:24.100 Conrad Flynn, thank you.

01:50:27.640 Can I plug my, uh, my sub-stack really quick?

01:50:29.740 I hope you will.

01:50:30.380 Okay, yeah.

01:50:30.980 So, um, I'm, I'm going to be doing, uh, launching my sub-stack soon.

01:50:34.060 If you like reading about, uh, you know, secret histories, it's not all weird stuff.

01:50:38.360 Some of it's wholesome.

01:50:39.520 Most of it will be wholesome.

01:50:40.540 It's all wholesome.

01:50:41.360 Uh, secret histories about Hollywood, uh, some politics, some tech stuff.

01:50:45.800 I think we're going with the, the Flynn effect because the other, um, the other sub-stack

01:50:50.480 names that were puns on my name all sounded like little brother magic show stuff.

01:50:54.100 It's like conjurer or, you know, context, um, configures.

01:50:59.340 And I'm like, this is magic show stuff.

01:51:01.420 Um, so yeah, uh, Flynn effect and I'll have that.

01:51:04.760 And I think we'll probably also get, um, the, uh, rock and the occult podcast.

01:51:08.820 Uh, we're still trying to do that, but we should have some episodes soon.

01:51:11.600 If nothing, it's a podcast soon with, again, Tom Merlewine, Greg Johnston, Sue Kalinske,

01:51:15.800 Gary Lockman, all those, all the legends, Ned Raggett.

01:51:19.640 Thank you.

01:51:20.180 Thank you.

01:51:24.100 We want to thank you for watching us on Spotify, a company that we use every day.

01:51:28.780 We know the people who run it, good people.

01:51:30.700 While you're here, do us a favor, hit follow and tap the bell.

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The Tucker Carlson Show - October 03, 2025

The Occult, Kabbalah, the Antichrist’s Newest Manifestation, and How to Avoid the Mark of the Beast

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