The Tucker Carlson Show - The Private Equity Veterinary Scam Making You Poorer and Killing Your Pets

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00:00:34.820 Joe, thank you for doing this.

00:00:35.940 I don't think I've ever, I probably have, I don't remember.

00:00:38.100 I don't think I've ever interviewed an advertiser.

00:00:41.100 And so I just want to be clear about why I'm doing this interview.

00:00:43.520 So I called you several months ago to ask you if you wanted to advertise on our show

00:00:47.320 because you have a pet-related company.

00:00:50.400 I love dogs. I've got a dog right there.

00:00:51.960 And we had this conversation that was like so unbelievably interesting.

00:00:57.840 So interesting that I haven't stopped thinking about it.

00:01:00.480 So that's, I just want to be fully transparent about why I asked you to come.

00:01:05.100 Thank you for doing it.

00:01:06.140 So here's, here's my real question.

00:01:11.600 Veterinary care, anyone who owns a dog or cat knows a lot about it.

00:01:16.340 There's no backstop.

00:01:18.000 There's no health insurance, whatever.

00:01:19.620 And you'll pay anything because it's your pet.

00:01:23.440 Right.

00:01:24.080 It's a member of your family and it's getting really, really expensive.

00:01:27.720 So can you just give us the overview?

00:01:29.780 Why is it so expensive to say, bring your dog in for his shots?

00:01:33.540 Like how does this system work?

00:01:35.100 Yep.

00:01:36.140 Just to put a pin on that, veterinary care has grown 2x the rate of inflation.

00:01:42.840 So we talk about inflation.

00:01:44.120 The cost of?

00:01:44.560 Yeah.

00:01:45.180 So the inflation is already high.

00:01:47.140 Oh, yeah.

00:01:48.100 Veterinary inflation is double. 0.90

00:01:49.820 It's like 2x.

00:01:51.380 That's how crazy it is.

00:01:53.180 So something that was $50 is literally $100 a year later.

00:01:58.940 Why?

00:02:00.240 There's a number of factors.

00:02:01.800 One, there's been a lot of private equity consolidation in this space.

00:02:06.180 I could have guessed that.

00:02:08.000 Follow the money.

00:02:09.660 So, you know, that just means less supply and the demand's only growing.

00:02:14.580 That's one big factor.

00:02:16.280 The other factor is because it's a cash pay industry, there's really no insurance.

00:02:22.200 Right.

00:02:23.380 Veterinarians, and you'll read this in trade magazines, they build their business on production,

00:02:30.640 which is basically selling you more stuff.

00:02:33.500 So a third of their revenue is dependent on you getting a blood exam, getting x-ray, etc.

00:02:41.560 And I think to be clear, like the rank and file veterinarians are doing this only because

00:02:48.000 they love pets.

00:02:48.780 I think what's happening is it's the few business owners and ultimately, like I said, private

00:02:55.000 equity that are simply raising prices for something that you're going to pay for no matter what.

00:03:01.720 Yes.

00:03:01.960 And it's scaring people.

00:03:04.580 We, so at Dutch, my company, 50% of our customers say they haven't been to a vet in three years or more.

00:03:13.720 Oh, I bet that's right.

00:03:14.900 People are scared that the moment they enter a vet's office, they have a $500 bill or more.

00:03:20.160 Literally.

00:03:20.600 So let's just back up and go through these one by one.

00:03:23.680 So the first is private equity.

00:03:25.080 What, so private equity buys the model in general, buys small businesses, independent businesses,

00:03:33.040 links them together for efficiencies, for cost savings, right?

00:03:37.360 This is the idea.

00:03:38.080 This is what they tell you.

00:03:38.880 So how many, do you have any sense of how many vets are owned by private equity now?

00:03:46.740 I think it's like almost, it's like a third to a half probably.

00:03:51.140 Wow.

00:03:51.680 Okay.

00:03:51.940 So they've been scooping them up.

00:03:53.080 Oh, massively.

00:03:54.100 In fact, this, there's been, there's like two major companies that are doing it that there

00:03:59.880 was a lawsuit that they're creating a monopoly that, that's, that's, that was going around.

00:04:06.780 So they'll go to owners of.

00:04:09.940 Of Brook and More, mom and pop shops.

00:04:11.180 Yeah, mom and pops.

00:04:12.040 And they'll just, they'll, and they're doing this with dentists as well.

00:04:15.040 Yes.

00:04:15.140 And HVAC and like basically every small business in America.

00:04:18.580 And, and they'll buy just a whole bunch of them.

00:04:21.600 Exactly.

00:04:22.100 Yeah.

00:04:22.200 And then become like regional.

00:04:23.600 Yep.

00:04:24.360 And then they'll just raise the prices.

00:04:26.760 Does the care get better?

00:04:28.640 No.

00:04:28.960 Well, the care gets worse because you're no longer bringing the, they're doing nothing.

00:04:35.340 I don't want to like say nothing, but there's really no like modernization of equipment or

00:04:42.200 faster care.

00:04:43.600 It's the same thing.

00:04:44.920 They just literally raise the price.

00:04:48.040 Huh.

00:04:49.600 Um, and then when it sucks, it's like super unfair.

00:04:52.960 No.

00:04:53.760 Well, I mean, I, you know, I'm willing to believe there are examples of private equity doing what

00:04:58.920 it says it does, which is, you know, to come in and make the business better, better for

00:05:03.260 its customers, better for its owners, better for its employees.

00:05:06.100 I've never seen that ever in any sector, but I, I believe there must be some time where that

00:05:12.260 happened.

00:05:12.600 My old veterinarian, I switched to, and I asked for my, um, which is owned by private equity.

00:05:21.020 And I asked for my medical records.

00:05:23.020 It was 50 pages of PDF with scribble notes.

00:05:27.920 I mean, there's no way that there's anything that you could ever find what's there.

00:05:32.900 So I don't believe, I've not seen any sort of better care for pets as a result at all.

00:05:39.480 Yeah.

00:05:40.400 Um, but greater returns for the investors in private for the, yep.

00:05:44.060 Yeah.

00:05:44.200 Totally.

00:05:44.980 So, um, okay.

00:05:46.780 So how do they, can you be specific about how they raise the prices?

00:05:50.520 You suggested there's an incentive for veterinary offices to hike the price of annual exams and

00:05:58.760 shots.

00:05:59.220 Annual exams, but they'll sell you more stuff too.

00:06:01.260 So they'll say, you know what, your dog needs teeth cleaning.

00:06:05.420 And so we need to put them under anesthesia and that's going to be like a $5,000 bill for

00:06:11.640 teeth cleaning.

00:06:13.080 $5,000?

00:06:14.300 Yes.

00:06:15.060 I've had a lot of dogs, dozens and dozens of dogs.

00:06:17.340 I've got five at my house right now.

00:06:18.620 And I don't think I've ever had a dog's teeth cleaned.

00:06:21.880 Yeah, exactly.

00:06:22.700 And my dogs live a long time.

00:06:23.820 Exactly.

00:06:24.100 Like 14.

00:06:24.700 Exactly.

00:06:25.440 And the thing is you're there and you feel horrible because you only want to do what's

00:06:30.360 best for your pet.

00:06:31.860 But what happens is they have a list of all the services they want to sell to you and

00:06:37.720 that's going to be one of them.

00:06:40.240 And you feel horrible that you even have to think about the decision.

00:06:44.900 Of course.

00:06:46.180 But you're, and, but it's like, that's a lot of money and not, I mean, most people don't

00:06:50.320 have $5,000 lying around the house.

00:06:52.940 Putting your dog under anesthesia is not a small thing.

00:06:56.680 I mean, dogs die.

00:06:57.680 People die under anesthesia.

00:06:59.140 You're suspending life in a living thing.

00:07:01.200 Totally.

00:07:02.060 Yeah.

00:07:02.380 So I think what happens is it's the list of services that they'll try to sell you and

00:07:07.540 make you feel horrible that you don't care about your dog if you don't buy from this

00:07:14.640 menu.

00:07:14.980 There's so much emotional leverage.

00:07:18.040 People are so intense about their animals.

00:07:20.800 Yes.

00:07:21.360 Not in my house.

00:07:22.120 We have, you know, critical distance.

00:07:24.880 You know, you'd do anything.

00:07:27.560 You'd sell your car.

00:07:28.780 I mean, I would.

00:07:30.120 And so they, they have a lot of power when they're upselling.

00:07:33.660 Yes, totally.

00:07:35.980 Do you, it seems like the incentives would produce like actually bad outcomes where your

00:07:42.180 dog or cat is getting treatments they don't need.

00:07:45.100 And that might be counterproductive.

00:07:47.240 Well, I think what happens is people just stop going to the vet at all.

00:07:50.960 That, I mean, that's what we've seen is that there's just a whole, there's tens of millions

00:07:56.100 of dogs that never go to the veterinarian.

00:08:01.220 At Dutch, 50% don't go to the vet.

00:08:04.960 Haven't been to the vet in years.

00:08:06.160 And it's because they don't want to, they don't want to feel bad for not buying extra

00:08:12.880 services for their dog.

00:08:14.500 That's amazing.

00:08:15.280 What about all the shots?

00:08:16.280 There are a lot of shots and they're very expensive.

00:08:18.740 Definitely there's vaccines, but even vaccines like you should, I mean, as we have a Dutch

00:08:24.420 try to kind of, so telemedicine can do vaccines, but there's definitely lower cost clinics that

00:08:32.420 will do vaccines for $50, whereas in person, it'll cost you $150 to $200 for the same thing.

00:08:41.620 For a shot?

00:08:42.240 Yes.

00:08:43.000 How, why would it cost 200 bucks for a shot?

00:08:45.920 Well, they'll say, well, I have to pay for rent and I have to pay for stat.

00:08:50.620 I mean, they'll say there's like all this upkeep that the shot, you know, includes, but it's

00:08:57.240 baloney.

00:08:57.620 It's obvious that goes back to private equity, raising prices and knowing the people, there's

00:09:02.840 some people who will still pay for it.

00:09:05.040 So the profile of the vets that I've dealt with in the past 20 years, it really, really

00:09:08.780 changed.

00:09:09.200 It's a female industry now. 1.00

00:09:11.020 Yes.

00:09:11.620 Which I think is good, just to be honest.

00:09:13.460 I feel like there are really a lot of dog lovers.

00:09:15.900 Yeah.

00:09:16.020 Not all you get hard cases among vets, but most vets I know just really love animals.

00:09:20.860 Yes.

00:09:21.720 Christmas is here.

00:09:22.600 That means you're eating a lot.

00:09:23.880 We are.

00:09:24.400 However, it's a tough time to get on the scale because the meals keep coming and so

00:09:28.520 does the weight gain.

00:09:29.680 But what if there was a way to eat like you want to eat without getting really fat over

00:09:33.580 Christmas week?

00:09:35.280 This is an ongoing concern in my house.

00:09:37.400 A snack that tastes excellent and is healthy.

00:09:40.780 Well, that exists.

00:09:42.020 It's called masa chips.

00:09:44.140 It's part of a growing movement to revive real food, the kind your grandparents ate before

00:09:48.860 snacks were designed in labs.

00:09:50.800 How do they do it?

00:09:51.560 Well, we'll tell you because it's very simple.

00:09:54.580 Masa chips are made from three ingredients.

00:09:57.200 Only three.

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00:10:03.120 That's it.

00:10:04.500 This is not some weird Franken cocktail like most big chip brands.

00:10:09.000 Masa chips taste delicious and you feel way better after.

00:10:12.680 You're not bloated.

00:10:13.960 You don't feel mindless.

00:10:15.540 It doesn't take you out of the game for hours.

00:10:17.600 And if you want to pick a flavor, we recommend lime.

00:10:21.520 My producer is literally eating a bag right off camera right now.

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00:10:27.920 Use the code Tucker for 25% off your first order or just click the link in the video description

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00:10:37.900 supermarket.

00:10:39.100 Stop by and pick up a bag.

00:10:41.280 They're awesome.

00:10:41.820 Hate to brag, but we're pretty confident this show is the most vehemently pro-dog podcast

00:10:47.460 you're ever going to see.

00:10:49.520 We can take or leave some people, but dogs are non-negotiable.

00:10:52.960 They are the best.

00:10:54.520 They really are our best friends.

00:10:55.900 And so for that reason, we're thrilled to have a new partner called Dutch Pet.

00:10:59.920 It's the fastest growing pet telehealth service.

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00:12:06.860 Your dogs, your cats, and your wallet will thank you.

00:12:11.240 And so what do they think of all of this?

00:12:13.080 So what's interesting is that when it comes to just Dutch and telemedicine, we get hundreds

00:12:21.520 of applications from people who want to do telemedicine.

00:12:26.460 And actually, to this point that it's female, telemedicine allows them to have a work-from-home 0.99

00:12:31.780 flexible schedule, which they love.

00:12:33.760 The main industry association, the AVMA, has basically made these vets feel that if

00:12:43.380 they do telemedicine, the FBI will show up at their house.

00:12:47.020 It has scared them to death from doing telemedicine.

00:12:50.400 What?

00:12:51.080 To death.

00:12:51.940 And it's because it's, again, it's comprised of these self-serving, financially interested

00:12:57.140 individuals who run the organization.

00:12:59.800 But they have completely scared veterinarians from doing telemedicine whatsoever.

00:13:07.700 Why would the FBI show up at a vet's house?

00:13:11.420 What they'll say, and again, like, I think this is why I want your listeners to know this.

00:13:16.040 It's just so insane.

00:13:18.180 They will say that the federal law requires you to have a physical exam, no matter what.

00:13:26.960 Like, no matter if it's an opinion, it's a rash, it's a quick question, they'll say that

00:13:35.440 the FDA website requires a physical exam, which it doesn't.

00:13:39.260 But in every conference, in every newsletter, they'll say, oh, well, we asked the FDA and

00:13:47.500 they said that you need a physical exam.

00:13:50.080 So if you violate this, you might go to jail.

00:13:53.580 That's what they'll say at every conference for years now.

00:13:57.600 And they'll vilify me and Dutch, and they'll say, this guy is going to hurt your dog.

00:14:04.240 If there's telemedicine, millions of dogs will die, is the headline.

00:14:09.760 I'm starting to laugh.

00:14:11.060 I mean, that's like, obviously not true.

00:14:13.180 Speaking of emotional blackmail.

00:14:15.160 Yeah.

00:14:16.020 So one of the main... 0.97

00:14:17.580 Buy this book or we'll shoot this dog. 0.85

00:14:19.220 I mean, it really, yeah, millions of dogs will die. 0.89

00:14:24.040 Did they really say that?

00:14:25.420 Yeah.

00:14:25.900 Well, again, so this is what they'll say at a conference.

00:14:30.180 What I've been doing now is I've been working with the ASPCA and a huge coalition of shelter

00:14:37.360 organizations because they're the ones that get the brunt of it.

00:14:42.280 Because now millions of dogs actually also get surrendered because their owners can't care

00:14:48.440 for them.

00:14:50.060 Because they can't afford veterinary care?

00:14:51.380 Because they can't afford veterinary care.

00:14:52.760 Yes.

00:14:53.340 Come on. 1.00

00:14:54.300 I'm telling you, it fucking sucks. 1.00

00:14:55.180 People abandon their dog? 1.00

00:14:56.820 Yes.

00:14:58.420 Oh, man.

00:14:59.320 I know.

00:14:59.880 It gives me chills.

00:15:00.640 Yeah. 1.00

00:15:00.920 It fucking sucks. 1.00

00:15:02.200 Yeah. 1.00

00:15:02.380 So the only way this can change is at the state level.

00:15:10.840 And we've been working...

00:15:12.540 So in Florida, it took us four legislative sessions to allow telemedicine.

00:15:17.080 And all it does is all the law will say is that the veterinarian can use their judgment

00:15:22.900 to make a decision.

00:15:24.300 But may I just ask you a foundational question?

00:15:26.400 Why is the state involved in what kind of medical care you give your dog?

00:15:30.340 Just because health care is regulated at the state level.

00:15:33.080 And this is veterinary care.

00:15:34.140 And that, I mean, and then...

00:15:35.420 But you have dominion over your dog.

00:15:37.060 I mean, right?

00:15:38.720 It's so weird that they feel like some state legislator feels like he has more power over

00:15:45.820 your dog who sleeps in your bed, who's your dog, than you do. 0.89

00:15:51.540 Like, what is that?

00:15:54.020 That's the system we live in.

00:15:55.860 But actually, I will tell you this, most legislators, once we tell them that this is a law that you

00:16:04.840 need to help us with, most of them are completely on board.

00:16:09.180 They don't...

00:16:09.660 They're like, we have human health care.

00:16:13.080 And this is...

00:16:13.880 Like, a lot of them will say, I didn't even know this was an...

00:16:17.060 Like you said, I didn't even know this was an issue. 0.99

00:16:18.860 This is dumb. 0.96

00:16:19.380 So, where it doesn't work is when the AVMA or a lot of these state lobby groups who have 0.99

00:16:29.660 hundreds of millions of dollars in annual budgets, if they've lined a politician's pocket,

00:16:36.300 then that's where we will have trouble in those states.

00:16:40.300 Taking money from the veterinary lobby.

00:16:42.060 Yeah.

00:16:42.280 There are a lot of dark lobbies.

00:16:45.920 We only pay attention to a couple of them, but there are so many.

00:16:49.700 Yeah.

00:16:49.860 So, can you just quickly tell me how that works?

00:16:52.480 So, the AVMA is the American Veterinary Medicine Association.

00:16:55.640 Yeah, Medical Association.

00:16:56.660 Medical Association.

00:16:58.660 And why do they have an interest in preventing telehealth for animals?

00:17:04.000 There's one reason that they'll say, and then there's one reason that they'll say behind

00:17:08.420 closed doors.

00:17:09.160 So, what they'll say in public is that they'll say telemedicine is going to harm dogs, lead

00:17:16.680 to millions of dogs dying.

00:17:19.040 But what they'll say at the hearing behind closed doors, it's purely financial.

00:17:24.900 They think that it's an either or choice, that if you have telemedicine, people will no longer

00:17:30.060 go to the vet and their brick and mortar business is going to die.

00:17:35.040 That's not true.

00:17:36.520 Oh, so they're just preserving the monopoly.

00:17:38.640 Yeah, they're preserving the monopoly.

00:17:40.260 It's just like always.

00:17:41.480 Most regulation exists to preserve existing monopolies.

00:17:44.040 Yes, exactly.

00:17:45.140 That's true in tech.

00:17:46.100 It's true in manufacturing.

00:17:47.600 It's true in the nicotine business.

00:17:50.080 It's true in veterinary care.

00:17:51.460 Wow.

00:17:52.460 I should have known that.

00:17:53.700 Duh.

00:17:54.580 Oh, you're right.

00:17:56.080 Millions of dogs will die.

00:17:58.400 Like, who has died?

00:17:59.340 No one.

00:18:00.140 Well, so if people aren't even bringing their dogs to the vet because it's too expensive,

00:18:04.200 how is that good?

00:18:05.020 Exactly, exactly.

00:18:06.220 Dogs are getting zero care.

00:18:08.940 And you will have these people say that they will prefer that than, they'll prefer the status

00:18:16.120 quo.

00:18:17.200 The industry association will say they'll prefer the status quo than allow telemedicine.

00:18:22.740 And by the way, it's not an either or choice.

00:18:25.940 It's not like, oh, I have a video call and now I no longer get vaccines at the vet.

00:18:34.880 You know, like we have, again, human health care.

00:18:37.900 We still go to our brick and mortar, annual checkup, whatever.

00:18:43.600 And then if we have an issue at night, we don't have to go to emergency.

00:18:47.560 Yeah, if you've got porcupine quills in your dog's throat or, you know, cuts his leg on

00:18:51.860 barbed wire, you have to go to a surgeon.

00:18:54.460 That's right.

00:18:54.940 But if he has a rash and you just want to know, like, is it like, what is this?

00:19:00.640 Why do you have to go to urgent care when you can just show, again, the dogs in the comfort

00:19:06.160 of their home and you use your phone and show a video of their paw?

00:19:11.220 Right.

00:19:11.440 Like, why do you have to drag that? 0.95

00:19:13.360 Well, and that's right.

00:19:14.640 And for example, we get porcupine quills on our dogs all the time, a lot.

00:19:19.120 And I wish I could say my dogs are smart enough not to try and eat porcupines, but they're

00:19:23.780 not.

00:19:24.840 And every year I have to take the quills out, which is, it takes like four hours.

00:19:30.640 But I do it myself because, well, because I know how, but also because my dogs don't like

00:19:35.320 to go to the vet at all.

00:19:36.580 And it smells like death and they can smell it.

00:19:38.520 Yep.

00:19:38.800 Mine do too.

00:19:39.460 Dogs are euthanized there.

00:19:40.400 They know that.

00:19:41.480 And so we do everything we can to prevent physical visits because the dogs are panicked.

00:19:48.940 And I think most people with dogs know this.

00:19:50.480 Yes.

00:19:50.820 And I think cats feel the same way.

00:19:52.820 Cats are even worse.

00:19:53.900 Yes.

00:19:54.300 Because to corral a cat.

00:19:56.660 Difficult.

00:19:57.340 Difficult.

00:19:58.340 Difficult.

00:19:59.020 So anything as someone, if you love animals, you want to, you want care for them, of course,

00:20:04.860 but you want to keep them out of the physical space if you can.

00:20:08.060 Yep.

00:20:09.340 They're in the comfort of their home.

00:20:10.740 Exactly.

00:20:11.240 Um, one of the things we see a lot is behavior and anxiety cases, and that's even more so

00:20:19.980 of why they should be treated from home because the dog is in their natural environment.

00:20:25.160 Exactly.

00:20:25.780 You're only making their situation worse by forcing them to this place they don't like.

00:20:32.240 And then a lot of the behavior modification that happens, telemedicine is perfect for that

00:20:38.200 because you can have these regular conversations and for a fraction of the price.

00:20:44.980 Just to give you context, it's less than $100 for a year of care.

00:20:52.780 If you went every month, you'd pay a hundred bucks a month.

00:20:56.740 You'd pay like over $1,000 to treat your dog.

00:21:00.780 Uh, and oftentimes when you have anxiety, you kind of need to have those regular check-ins.

00:21:07.160 And we had a story recently of, of this guy who had an aggressive dog.

00:21:11.860 He's been on Dutch for two years and the dog went from crazy aggressive to now he has two

00:21:19.720 buddies.

00:21:20.660 Like his life has changed.

00:21:23.620 And there's no way in the world this, uh, owner could have had the money or the time

00:21:30.240 if Dutch wasn't around to change this dog's life. 0.99

00:21:34.540 Amazing.

00:21:35.760 Yeah.

00:21:36.140 And if you have a dog who bites, I've had a few, uh, it's very disruptive and you know,

00:21:42.100 the dog can get killed by the way, you know, dogs like that either get put down by the state

00:21:47.340 or can be killed in a fight, whatever.

00:21:49.080 You don't want that at all.

00:21:50.620 It's a big, it's a big problem.

00:21:52.700 Actually, we're talking about this morning at breakfast.

00:21:54.320 You don't need to be an economist to see what's happening.

00:21:56.200 The dollar is in trouble.

00:21:57.820 It's getting weaker.

00:21:58.800 It's sad, but we're not in charge of it.

00:22:00.720 So we have to respond appropriately in ways to protect our families.

00:22:04.060 When paper money dies, it's going to be replaced by programmable digital currency or gold.

00:22:09.760 Gold survives.

00:22:10.640 The same Americans who think they're protecting themselves with gold are the ones getting ripped

00:22:13.960 off by big gold dealers.

00:22:15.320 After we left corporate media, we got offered tens of millions of dollars to promote gold

00:22:18.900 companies.

00:22:19.480 How do they get the money to spend that much on marketing?

00:22:21.160 Because they're scamming their customers.

00:22:22.800 We didn't want anything to do with that.

00:22:23.920 So we sought an honest broker and together we formed a precious metals company that you

00:22:27.680 can actually trust.

00:22:28.900 It's called Battalion Metals.

00:22:30.180 At battalionmetals.com, we publish actual spot prices.

00:22:34.960 We're totally transparent about the VIG, what we take, and we treat everyone with honesty.

00:22:40.760 So if you've been watching what's happening, you know it's not just about money.

00:22:43.100 It's about sovereignty and holding something that endures and cannot be manipulated or taken

00:22:47.080 from you.

00:22:47.580 So if you've been waiting for the right time to act, this is it.

00:22:49.840 Visit battalionmetals.com.

00:22:54.340 So how does it work exactly?

00:22:57.100 I don't understand the term.

00:23:00.200 So it's a hundred bucks.

00:23:01.740 Tell me how it works.

00:23:03.060 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:23:03.200 What's the alternative?

00:23:03.760 So with Dutch, you go to Dutch.com, you sign up.

00:23:08.500 It's a membership service.

00:23:10.460 It's a hundred dollars for a year of care.

00:23:12.900 So for a year, you can call a vet for up to five pets.

00:23:18.920 And we have vets available same day.

00:23:22.380 So, you know, most appointments, by the way, are happening at night when even if you have

00:23:27.720 a vet, the vet's closed.

00:23:29.360 Yeah.

00:23:30.500 And so you have a video call.

00:23:32.020 Most calls happen on people's phones.

00:23:35.200 You talk to a local vet in your state and they'll, you know, you're talking to a professional

00:23:41.500 and so they'll die. 0.52

00:23:43.280 You're talking to a veterinarian.

00:23:44.460 Yeah.

00:23:44.620 You always talk to a veterinarian, a human being, and 90% of the time, and we've been doing

00:23:51.060 this now for five years, 90% of the time they're able to address the issue over video.

00:23:59.080 Amazing.

00:23:59.740 And so does that include vaccines or what does that include?

00:24:06.480 It includes the cost.

00:24:07.680 So vaccines you have to do in person and we'll recommend a local clinic if that's what you

00:24:12.780 need.

00:24:13.440 But if you, if you need medication, we have pharmacy partners who can ship that to you.

00:24:18.920 You can also go to a pharmacy of your choice.

00:24:21.920 You don't care.

00:24:22.500 Um, but it includes kind of any of the follow-up messages, chats with a vet.

00:24:28.240 So you don't feel like you're nickel and dimed.

00:24:30.200 If I have another question or if I have to follow up a week later.

00:24:34.160 Um, the other thing that's cool about digital first is that everything is documented.

00:24:40.580 So we know automatically when we should follow up for each condition or we know that a veterinary

00:24:50.480 needs to respond.

00:24:51.360 Like we have, um, goals, a veterinary needs to respond within a matter of hours, um, back

00:24:59.540 to the patient if there's a message during the business day.

00:25:02.100 So we can also like really monitor quality metrics to make sure that customers are having a good

00:25:07.900 experience.

00:25:08.580 Is this nationwide?

00:25:10.060 It's nationwide, but there are about 20 states that don't allow telemedicine.

00:25:18.280 For animals?

00:25:19.480 For animals.

00:25:20.080 Yeah.

00:25:20.920 What?

00:25:21.520 Really?

00:25:22.640 Yep.

00:25:23.040 Because of lobbying by brick and mortar?

00:25:24.960 Exactly.

00:25:26.420 So that's why I...

00:25:27.200 Any big states?

00:25:28.340 Any of the big states.

00:25:29.440 Um, some of the biggest ones like Texas, which is crazy because California allows it, but Texas

00:25:38.400 does not.

00:25:40.000 And, um, we actually had a huge bill this year that literally got killed, um, by the AVMA.

00:25:47.880 And it's all because of money.

00:25:50.340 That's wild.

00:25:52.080 Yep.

00:25:53.140 So it's, you are not allowed to do, so is there like an underground telehealth?

00:25:58.840 Like, why don't you just ignore the law and do it anyway?

00:26:01.980 Sorry.

00:26:02.340 Kind of.

00:26:03.000 Well, so there's actually on, in Texas, there's a court case that is now at the Supreme Court

00:26:10.940 where the veterinarian said, well, I'm, it's freedom of speech.

00:26:15.580 Yeah.

00:26:15.940 I'm just like telling people what, like how their pets, you know, um, this is my freedom

00:26:23.240 of speech.

00:26:24.320 So the Fifth Circuit, which is Texas, Louisiana, Missouri, has ruled in his favor, but the

00:26:31.620 attorney general has filed this, um, as an appeal at the Supreme Court currently.

00:26:37.760 Seriously?

00:26:38.580 Yeah.

00:26:39.720 What's his name?

00:26:40.520 Craig.

00:26:40.960 I forget his name.

00:26:44.040 That's so interesting.

00:26:45.400 He's running for Senate.

00:26:46.300 So right now it is illegal for anyone in Texas to call a vet on the phone and just get healthcare

00:26:53.260 on the phone.

00:26:54.360 Yep.

00:26:54.620 According to them.

00:26:57.700 Now there's always, so there's two paths in Texas.

00:27:02.740 There's any state allows, has an emergency provision if it's a life or death situation.

00:27:09.140 And then in Texas, again, there's this Fifth Circuit decision that's currently, so there's

00:27:16.480 like, there's sort of this competing situation in Texas where on the one hand, the Fifth Circuit

00:27:21.340 says telemedicine is allowed, but the state regulations still say that it's not allowed.

00:27:27.980 I'm pretty sure I could just call up and get like very serious drugs prescribed through

00:27:32.580 telehealth as an adult.

00:27:34.000 That's right.

00:27:34.460 Like very serious, fully addictive benzodiazepines, for example.

00:27:38.820 Totally.

00:27:39.040 You can die from going off them.

00:27:40.680 I mean, this is like way more, way more addictive than heroin.

00:27:44.280 You can't die going off heroin.

00:27:45.680 You can die going off Xanax.

00:27:47.260 So it's all about the money.

00:27:48.960 But that's totally fine to get that from telehealth or amphetamines.

00:27:53.720 No problem.

00:27:54.860 It's like Tijuana.

00:27:56.300 You know, you get whatever you want now, but your dog can't get treatment.

00:28:00.220 Yeah, that's not, it's, it's definitely unfair.

00:28:03.640 Well, it's deranged.

00:28:06.680 Is that changing?

00:28:08.160 Are you making progress?

00:28:09.460 We're making good progress.

00:28:10.540 So we've changed the laws in Florida, Arizona, Ohio, in a number of states.

00:28:16.540 And, um, this upcoming legislative session, we're lobbying in 12 different states, but

00:28:22.700 definitely there's a lot of states.

00:28:25.140 I'm sure your listeners live in a lot of those states.

00:28:28.020 And, uh, one of the things we did as we launched this website called savepuppies.com.

00:28:37.800 And if you go to savepuppies.com.

00:28:39.680 Well, I love your marketing suit.

00:28:41.500 I mean, if they're saying millions of dogs will die, you should, you know, you're fighting

00:28:45.260 back with savepuppies.com.

00:28:47.060 That wasn't taken.

00:28:48.100 I know, right?

00:28:50.200 Yeah, it wasn't taken.

00:28:51.980 And so, you know, you can go there and, uh, send a letter to your local legislator.

00:28:57.000 That's the only way that things will change is at the grassroots level because we don't

00:29:01.660 have the crazy budget that these trade groups have.

00:29:06.240 Can I ask you, what is the AVMA think of private equity scooping up all the independent

00:29:11.380 businesses?

00:29:13.220 They're associated, I think they're associated with it.

00:29:16.300 They've got no problem with that.

00:29:18.100 I don't think so.

00:29:20.720 Prices going up, care declining, that they're totally fine with that.

00:29:26.320 But they're against options.

00:29:29.120 What else?

00:29:29.620 So I think, again, there's two things, what they'll say publicly versus what happens behind

00:29:34.560 closed doors.

00:29:36.340 And I've read, I mean, it's like we live in two different worlds because what they'll

00:29:42.920 say is, like, for example, one reason prices are going up is there's also not a

00:29:48.080 massive vet shortages because the veterinary profession has one of the biggest dropout

00:29:53.820 rates of anyone.

00:29:55.440 And they'll say, and this is just factually true if you follow BLS, Bureau of Labor Statistics.

00:30:07.000 But they'll say there's no shortage.

00:30:08.540 Or you'll say, you know, prices are going up.

00:30:12.280 And there's like data that shows that they'll say, no, prices are not going up.

00:30:16.700 So a lot of times when you talk to them, the surveys they put out make are completely nonsensical.

00:30:27.280 Right.

00:30:27.820 And there's this bottleneck in veterinary school.

00:30:31.140 Totally.

00:30:31.740 So that's another thing.

00:30:33.440 The AVMA, it's really weird in this industry.

00:30:37.740 And I think I just, again, I'm here because like you shine a light on things.

00:30:41.340 And I think a lot of people...

00:30:42.480 Well, I care about this topic because I think the relationship between people and

00:30:45.860 animals is just so essential.

00:30:47.520 I know. 0.98

00:30:48.000 It sucks what they're doing. 0.91

00:30:52.180 So they, the AVMA controls accreditation for veterinary colleges. 0.97

00:30:59.640 Okay.

00:31:00.900 Like this happens in no other, like law schools don't have a trade association decide like

00:31:07.160 who gets to have a law school.

00:31:08.980 Yeah.

00:31:09.680 In this industry, the AVMA controls what is deemed a vet school.

00:31:16.840 And they have chokehold that completely.

00:31:21.900 So private equity decides whether you get to be a vet or not.

00:31:24.900 I mean, in effect, if private equity is the single biggest player in this industry, that's

00:31:30.040 bonkers.

00:31:31.080 Why? 0.94

00:31:32.440 I mean, it goes back to money.

00:31:33.740 It goes back to when you have less supply, you can charge more and because people are willing

00:31:40.940 to pay more for it.

00:31:42.120 So they have an incentive to reduce the number of new veterinarians coming out of school every

00:31:48.240 year.

00:31:49.500 It's like, I hate to draw that line, but I think that's what's happening.

00:31:53.660 Well, if it's about money, then it's supply and demand because that's what the market is.

00:31:57.320 Yeah.

00:31:57.400 And so the fewer vets you have, the higher the prices.

00:32:00.980 Yeah.

00:32:01.680 It, it like makes, I've, you know, and again, I'm, I think I'm a curious person and I try

00:32:08.620 to like understand, like, could it be something else?

00:32:11.620 Is there another reason?

00:32:13.000 Like, why would this, if you have high attrition, you have prices going up, you would think that

00:32:19.180 the way to solve that is to have more veterinarians and that's just not what they're doing.

00:32:26.780 They've like, literally, I, at this point, know several vet schools that have just stopped

00:32:31.740 developments, you know, gave up because the AVMA basically told them that they're not going

00:32:36.680 to get a license.

00:32:39.640 That's crazy.

00:32:40.300 I'm not sure.

00:32:41.140 I'm not sure.

00:32:41.860 Because there are very, relatively few colleges that turn out veterinarians.

00:32:47.620 Oh, there's totally few.

00:32:48.640 Like, just think, I can tell you this statistic.

00:32:51.860 There's about one veterinarian for every 3,000 pets in America.

00:32:58.160 For context, the ratio in human healthcare is one to 20.

00:33:04.060 No way.

00:33:04.900 The disparity is so huge and the amount of vet schools is so little.

00:33:12.260 Like, we can, we can have a, you know, dozens of vet schools pop up and it would still maybe

00:33:17.620 not be enough in the next decade.

00:33:19.920 And like I said, this trader organization is refusing to launch any new schools.

00:33:27.100 Well, I mean, that's a cartel.

00:33:28.480 That's cartel behavior. 0.54

00:33:29.700 It's very much cartel behavior.

00:33:31.180 And what's crazy is I feel like then this gaslighting happens where I'm painted as the

00:33:37.560 bad guy.

00:33:38.540 And they'll say, this guy, Joe, or Dutch, you know, he's just self-interested. 0.97

00:33:44.540 He just wants, you know, he's the one that wants your money.

00:33:47.420 And I'm like, how is that possible when I'm like reducing the cost?

00:33:52.700 Like, it doesn't make sense.

00:33:54.500 Well, it wasn't that long ago that many Americans thought they were inherently safe from the

00:33:57.920 kinds of disasters you hear about all the time in third world countries.

00:34:00.700 A total power loss, for example, or people freezing to death in their own homes.

00:34:04.940 That could never happen here.

00:34:06.620 Obviously, it's America.

00:34:09.120 People are recalculating, unfortunately, because they have no choice.

00:34:12.960 The last few years have taught us that.

00:34:14.800 Remember when the power grid in Texas failed in the dead of winter?

00:34:18.320 Yeah, it happened.

00:34:19.720 And it could happen again.

00:34:21.540 So the government is not actually as reliable as you hoped they would be.

00:34:25.600 And the truth is the future is unforeseeable.

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00:35:38.020 How did you get into this?

00:35:41.860 A couple reasons.

00:35:43.240 So prior to Dutch, I was one of the co-founders of HIMS and HERS.

00:35:47.540 And so I helped start that telemedicine journey.

00:35:51.260 And I would say if we back it up even more,

00:35:54.760 we'd have to go back to my experience coming to America

00:35:58.680 and just always, as an immigrant, having to figure things out.

00:36:04.160 When we, my family and I immigrated from the Soviet Union,

00:36:08.020 To the Bay Area.

00:36:10.620 No, but where in the Soviet Union?

00:36:12.400 From Uzbekistan.

00:36:14.100 Uzbekistan.

00:36:14.800 Former, a current separate country at this point.

00:36:17.880 Yeah, but then a Soviet Republic.

00:36:19.240 Yep.

00:36:20.280 We...

00:36:20.960 What was Uzbekistan like?

00:36:22.320 You know, it's, it's very, it's Muslim majority, but it, I would say secular.

00:36:31.000 Yes.

00:36:31.320 And everyone got along, I thought, quite well.

00:36:35.500 Um, and we're Jewish.

00:36:38.780 And I actually didn't even know Jews and Muslims are supposed to not get along.

00:36:43.720 Yeah.

00:36:43.880 When I, we went to each other's weddings.

00:36:46.600 There's lots of shared history and similarity.

00:36:49.560 Um, that's been true, by the way, I just say, factually, that has been true in various parts

00:36:55.380 of the world over time.

00:36:56.860 You know, not always, of course, there are huge problems, but then other places, there

00:37:00.060 are no problems.

00:37:00.920 Mm-hmm.

00:37:01.460 And that was one of them.

00:37:02.780 Yeah.

00:37:03.060 Um, so it was, you know, we, we, you know, I mean, I, I, I had a good childhood.

00:37:11.420 We left everything, uh, behind because my dad was, uh, almost thrown into a labor camp

00:37:18.260 for having an illegal book, which is just like a regular, I'm sure it's probably maybe

00:37:23.420 a book on your shelf.

00:37:24.980 What book is it?

00:37:25.660 It's called, uh, Exodus by Leon Uris.

00:37:28.720 No way.

00:37:30.220 Yeah.

00:37:30.580 And it's just a book about fighting for freedom.

00:37:34.280 I think it's a concept they didn't want you to know about.

00:37:36.940 Yeah.

00:37:37.820 And we fled, we fled with, I had a hundred bucks, uh, and a red suitcase and we left,

00:37:46.820 lived in Italy in a refugee camp for several months, uh, eventually got political asylum

00:37:53.860 to come to the United States and then, you know, lived in low income housing for a long

00:37:59.480 time.

00:38:00.580 In the Bay area.

00:38:01.600 In the Bay area.

00:38:02.260 What was that like?

00:38:03.700 A couple of things.

00:38:05.120 First, my dad definitely told us, uh, that we have to assimilate, that we have to learn

00:38:13.660 the language.

00:38:15.240 He himself, he was a civil engineer and I saw him at first work in flea markets, just doing

00:38:23.860 manual labor. 0.84

00:38:24.600 And I think it showed me that he would do anything for his family to have a meal on the table.

00:38:31.460 And I think later in life, it showed me, you know, no one's too good to take out the

00:38:36.180 garbage.

00:38:36.440 That's right. 1.00

00:38:37.080 That is exactly right.

00:38:38.060 And, uh, and, uh, and just the value of a dollar, I still, I think, you know, I want to make

00:38:45.100 sure my kids have that, but I still think, and I think back to this business, I think

00:38:49.300 that's why when I see things that are so expensive for people, I feel it in my bones because I still

00:38:58.200 know what it's like to not have any money, to make difficult decisions, um, when you only

00:39:04.960 have so many dollars every month.

00:39:07.920 What did your dad wind up doing?

00:39:10.020 He ended up going back to being an engineer.

00:39:12.400 Wow.

00:39:12.720 He, um, got trained, um, education and, and he found a mentor who took him under his wing.

00:39:19.760 Um, and he became an engineer again.

00:39:22.640 Amazing.

00:39:23.080 Yep.

00:39:24.420 They really, yeah.

00:39:27.180 So in so many ways, they, they inspired me.

00:39:31.280 And with that said, there's not much that they knew about America.

00:39:36.960 And so I, I knew that they would love me, but a lot of times I had to figure everything

00:39:41.640 out for myself.

00:39:43.160 I went to college, I paid for college myself.

00:39:46.780 And I think all of these things taught me to be a survivor, taught me to make something

00:39:55.380 out of nothing.

00:39:56.820 Um, and kind of that's, that's led me, that led me to hymns and ultimately that led me to

00:40:02.500 Dutch.

00:40:03.580 Were, were you an animal person?

00:40:06.120 We had animals.

00:40:07.560 So in the Soviet union, tons of animals.

00:40:10.900 Um, so I always definitely grew up with animals, uh, German shepherd.

00:40:15.220 Oh, great dogs.

00:40:16.780 Had a black cat.

00:40:19.160 Um, so we had animals up until I was 10 and then we lived in apartment, tiny, tiny apartments.

00:40:26.880 And so then we got finally, when I had a family and we had a house we got, so that's when we

00:40:33.720 got my, uh, Corgi and that's kind of how it all happened because I was coming off hymns.

00:40:39.820 It was starting to be a big company.

00:40:42.080 I always like smaller companies and when I can actually still create something.

00:40:49.060 Yes.

00:40:49.580 And then we got a Corgi and started to see the vet bills.

00:40:54.280 And then the kicker was, he got into a trail mix and then we had a $2,000 vet bill.

00:41:02.440 Trail mix?

00:41:03.120 Yeah.

00:41:03.320 Like trail mix had like a couple M&Ms in it.

00:41:05.920 Oh yeah.

00:41:06.320 And they're not supposed to eat chocolate.

00:41:07.760 Not supposed to eat M&Ms.

00:41:08.780 Yeah.

00:41:08.900 They like them though.

00:41:11.020 Yeah.

00:41:11.420 I like them.

00:41:11.920 Who does that?

00:41:12.780 Right.

00:41:14.320 And.

00:41:14.960 Did he get sick?

00:41:15.980 No, but the thing is, and that's the thing, is then I was talking to a veterinarian friend

00:41:22.060 and he said, like, you really didn't have to do, you didn't have to like pump his stomach

00:41:27.580 for like the three M&Ms that he ate.

00:41:31.380 And I, so then that's kind of how I started to look around.

00:41:34.660 Like, are there any, like, could I have done something else?

00:41:37.820 Did you pump his stomach?

00:41:39.580 Yes.

00:41:40.540 So can I just pause and say, I love how, even if they're misguided, I love how devoted

00:41:45.120 dog owners are to their dogs and cats.

00:41:47.740 I mean, they just like, they'll do anything.

00:41:49.560 I'll do anything.

00:41:50.380 Yeah.

00:41:50.560 Yeah.

00:41:51.460 I'll do anything.

00:41:54.120 And, but it, and, and so I think that's when I realized there's really no like other option

00:42:00.440 when it comes to, there's no telemedicine options that I saw.

00:42:04.680 And it, and it goes back to that a lot of times it has to do with the laws, but look, I'm

00:42:11.020 the guy who I figured when him started, it was actually a similar situation.

00:42:15.800 Back five years ago, telemedicine wasn't legal on the human side either.

00:42:22.860 Like we forget that because it's now so commonplace, but it was also the same thing.

00:42:27.400 And I, and I helped change those laws back then.

00:42:30.040 I think that's kind of why some of these groups are scared of me is because this guy comes

00:42:36.540 from a place where like, he has nothing to lose.

00:42:39.740 He's only doing, I mean, also, I think it's because I'm doing the right thing.

00:42:42.940 I think they don't like that.

00:42:43.880 And I've done it before.

00:42:47.480 So I think that kind of gives me more confidence that I can do it again.

00:42:53.720 And I don't think that's because before this, so before Dutch came on the scene, what the 1.00

00:43:00.460 shelter groups, for example, that wanted telemedicine, what they were doing is talking to the state

00:43:06.560 veterinary boards, because that's how the, that's a, that's a simpler way that this could

00:43:11.520 all change.

00:43:12.400 If the veterinary board at the state, they could just say, if you want to do telemedicine,

00:43:18.220 do telemedicine, if it's medically appropriate, it could be as simple as that.

00:43:22.280 And so for over 10 years, they were having these conversations.

00:43:27.560 And so that's when I got here and I'm like, this is doing nothing.

00:43:32.420 So we got to go the legislative route.

00:43:34.340 It's so revealing, however, I mean, again, I think they're probably good people with good

00:43:38.200 motives up and down the line.

00:43:39.360 There always are in these systems, but the system itself is so distorted that they don't

00:43:44.000 put the welfare of animals as the top goal.

00:43:47.600 Like that always has to be the point, right?

00:43:49.800 What's, if, if you're a veterinary board, the health of animals, that's why you exist.

00:43:55.860 Totally.

00:43:56.600 Right?

00:43:57.140 Totally.

00:43:57.520 But it doesn't seem like they're thinking that way.

00:43:59.440 Well, again, what they'll say is we are thinking of the pets.

00:44:03.440 We think millions of dogs will die with telemedicine.

00:44:07.380 How will that happen?

00:44:09.860 They'll, well, let me tell you, if some of these examples I've seen, they'll say,

00:44:15.760 like, I'll say the example I used, anxiety, like I'll say, isn't that great for telemedicine?

00:44:22.280 The dog is in the comfort of their home and you can, they'll say, well, what if the dog

00:44:28.160 ate a nail?

00:44:29.060 You know, if the dog ate a nail, I've been in hearings where this example has happened.

00:44:32.940 Well, if the dog ate a nail, look, maybe that he's barking because he had a nail and he's

00:44:38.480 in pain because he ate a nail.

00:44:40.440 And so that's why we shouldn't have, it's like, are there nails on your house?

00:44:44.740 Like, why, why are we going to use this crazy made up example to deny millions of dogs from

00:44:54.560 having this opportunity to use telemedicine?

00:44:56.640 Sure.

00:44:57.140 And if your dog ate a nail, there's still no good reason why you shouldn't start with

00:45:01.860 telemedicine.

00:45:02.480 Yeah, exactly.

00:45:03.020 Yeah.

00:45:03.200 Have that initial call.

00:45:04.720 Yeah.

00:45:05.080 The vet will walk you through it and then you'll know, do I go to ER or not?

00:45:10.000 Exactly.

00:45:10.540 It's not, it doesn't have to be an either or situation.

00:45:12.440 We had a family dog who ate a pin recently, a needle, you know, a sewing needle.

00:45:19.740 And, you know, obviously that's a brick and mortar situation.

00:45:23.180 Yes.

00:45:24.400 The dog passed it without any problems, which is kind of, the canine digestive tract is a

00:45:29.380 wonder.

00:45:29.980 Wow.

00:45:30.340 All kinds of things, mops, pine cones, sewing needles emerge from it.

00:45:36.740 But, um, that it still would have been worth calling initially.

00:45:42.380 Like, why not?

00:45:43.300 Totally.

00:45:43.680 Why not?

00:45:44.480 It takes, before Dutch, um, there's a, uh, a poison hotline that's like $75 just for that

00:45:53.140 first call.

00:45:54.060 Yes.

00:45:54.540 And you don't even know who, who you're going to get.

00:45:58.540 And that's what people do because again, if that's what you need to do, that's what you'll

00:46:02.280 do.

00:46:03.040 But there's definitely ways to talk to a human being veterinarian very quickly, even that

00:46:10.800 for much less and definitely much less than having to spend a thousand dollars in ER.

00:46:17.620 I had a case where my dog, I thought he was having a seizure and I really, I mean,

00:46:24.540 I really freaked out and I got on Dutch and the vet says he's doing a reverse sneezing.

00:46:34.040 Reverse sneezing?

00:46:34.800 Reverse sneezing.

00:46:35.620 I never heard of that in my life.

00:46:37.980 And she showed me videos of a reverse sneezing and it looked exactly like what he was going

00:46:45.760 through.

00:46:46.140 And like I said, I was literally about to grab him, drive to ER and she totally calmed 0.96

00:46:53.500 me down and, and made me realize it was completely right.

00:46:56.840 That's, oh, what a great example.

00:46:58.620 We just had a dog.

00:46:59.820 We've had a dog eat marijuana in the park.

00:47:03.780 We had a dog, um, eat hallucinogenic mushrooms in the woods.

00:47:08.700 Totally.

00:47:09.200 The dog has been tripping ever since those four years ago.

00:47:11.880 The dog is still seeing trails.

00:47:13.860 Um, wonderful dog woke up with the dog this morning.

00:47:16.480 Um, but in both cases, um, there really was no treatment at all.

00:47:22.380 And in both cases, those dogs were bundled up and taken to the vet, which did not, not

00:47:26.740 again, I love the vet.

00:47:28.120 I'm not against the vet to be clear, but it didn't help at all because it's just, there's

00:47:32.500 no remedy.

00:47:33.400 Right.

00:47:33.680 There's a time and a place for everything.

00:47:35.580 Right.

00:47:35.740 And I think telemedicine is just a part of the overall experience.

00:47:39.660 I don't think anyone's going to say it needs to replace the, and, and, and it won't happen

00:47:44.960 because it hasn't happened in human care, but I think it's another option for people

00:47:49.740 to get a peace of mind and to have an option that's way more affordable.

00:47:56.220 And we are seeing so many dogs, like I said, being given up or people who are saying, I don't

00:48:02.440 think I can have a dog in my life.

00:48:04.280 Yeah. 0.98

00:48:04.720 That sucks. 0.99

00:48:05.380 Well, that's a tragedy, especially people with children need to have dogs. 0.99

00:48:09.340 I think.

00:48:09.960 Totally.

00:48:10.500 It's been, yeah, for us, my kids are little Eddie, the Corgi.

00:48:16.240 They love him so much.

00:48:17.880 Oh, yeah.

00:48:18.200 And it's, it's the best.

00:48:20.540 Can I also say it's really good for your immune system to be around dogs?

00:48:24.880 Yeah.

00:48:25.180 I think I've seen studies that show that.

00:48:27.680 Yeah.

00:48:27.980 When our first child, who's 31, came home from the hospital after being born, both of

00:48:34.280 our dogs, our spaniel jumped up and licked the dog, licked the child in the mouth.

00:48:38.780 Child's never been sick.

00:48:40.040 It's just a fact.

00:48:41.060 Yeah.

00:48:41.380 I think it definitely, I feel like I've seen stuff that.

00:48:43.840 Really?

00:48:44.380 Yeah.

00:48:44.720 That you get that immunity.

00:48:46.440 I'm pretty sure.

00:48:47.260 We've always, since I was born, we've always, my family's always been committed to that.

00:48:51.500 Like you've got to have a lot of dogs around and you stay healthy and everyone's been really

00:48:55.440 healthy.

00:48:55.800 I think that matters.

00:48:57.940 So again, I feel a little weird interviewing you because you've advertised on our show and

00:49:03.440 all that, but I just, I just felt it so strongly.

00:49:06.980 I feel like this is such a good thing.

00:49:08.640 And I think there are a lot of viewers of this who would agree.

00:49:12.700 And so I just, it was sincere.

00:49:14.680 I really thank you.

00:49:15.380 Well, I think when you first called me, it was, hey, I like dogs.

00:49:20.840 This makes sense.

00:49:21.840 And I think I already, I was like, Tucker's got to know this conspiracy that's happening

00:49:28.100 because it's such baloney and it's so unfair.

00:49:31.880 And so few people kind of, like I said, know how monopolistic it is.

00:49:38.700 And I thought that your listeners and you could help us because I think we're the Goliath in

00:49:47.220 this fight or the, right?

00:49:48.480 We're the David in this fight.

00:49:50.220 And it needs people to understand how crazy the situation is for both for veterinarians,

00:49:58.740 who, like I said, feel scared to do telemedicine, as well as for pet owners who can't afford it.

00:50:05.280 And it all has to do with these trade associations who are keeping and using their monopoly power

00:50:12.860 to change, to keep the laws from changing.

00:50:16.220 So I think that whole part, you had no idea what's going on.

00:50:19.740 I had literally no idea.

00:50:21.680 And again, for us at this age, you know, I don't, it's the cost is not the main barrier for us.

00:50:30.180 The barrier is the dog.

00:50:31.840 It's just so much suffering for the dogs to go to the vet.

00:50:35.440 And sometimes there's no choice and I get it.

00:50:37.240 But if we can avoid that, we would just be so thankful to avoid it.

00:50:41.960 Yep, and your dogs.

00:50:42.660 So it's dutch.com.

00:50:44.340 Yep, D-U-T-C-H. 1.00

00:50:46.860 Well, I'm sure I'll be attacked for insider dealing, but it's not.

00:50:50.360 I think you'd advertise with us no matter what, but I just wanted you to be able to say all

00:50:54.300 of that at length.

00:50:54.960 So I'm grateful that you did.

00:50:56.220 Thank you, yes.

00:50:57.720 Joe Spector.

00:50:58.840 Thank you.

00:50:59.320 Thank you.

The Tucker Carlson Show - December 29, 2025

The Private Equity Veterinary Scam Making You Poorer and Killing Your Pets

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