The Tucker Carlson Show - The Shocking Reality of the Treatment of Christians in the Holy Land by the US-Funded Israeli Government

00:00:00.000 Good evening. From where I'm standing right now, I can see all around me in a ring, seven Christian churches.

00:00:07.180 We're not going to pan to see them. You can see one behind me, but they're all on the ridges of this valley around me.

00:00:14.320 We are about 100 yards from the River Jordan and about 150 yards from the spot where Jesus, the Christian Savior, God on earth, was baptized by John the Baptist.

00:00:25.800 Famously, the beginning of his ministry and the beginning, really, of the gospel.

00:00:31.080 John the Baptist lived famously in the wilderness, eating locusts and honey. That was right here. 0.61

00:00:37.120 We are in the Holy Land, but on the political map, we're in an overwhelmingly Muslim country, a monarchy called Jordan.

00:00:46.480 And that's significant, particularly now, because the question of how Christians are treated in the Holy Land is a political question.

00:00:56.700 And it is because much of what happens in this region is funded by the United States, by its taxpayers, military action,

00:01:04.380 but also the cultural and religious life of the region is funded to a great extent by American Christian churches.

00:01:11.100 And so the question that we've asked for some time now is, what's the outcome?

00:01:16.100 How are Christians in the Holy Land doing? 0.90

00:01:19.200 Are they thriving or are they suffering?

00:01:23.220 And the truth has become pretty obvious over the past couple of years, which is, in Israel, they are not thriving.

00:01:32.060 Their numbers are not growing.

00:01:33.320 They are shrinking.

00:01:34.320 And there's a huge debate about why.

00:01:35.680 But the bottom line is, there are fewer Christians now, far fewer, in absolute numbers, and particularly as percentage of population than there were when the state was founded in 1948.

00:01:47.140 And there's a lot of evidence in the last couple of years, particularly since the Gaza War started,

00:01:51.740 and the whole tone of the conversation in this area has changed quite a bit, and the rise of extremism, very noticeable,

00:01:58.560 that those numbers have gotten even smaller.

00:02:00.440 And in Jerusalem, if you follow this at all on the Internet, you see video clip after video clip of Christian clergy being spit at by religious extremists,

00:02:13.680 not Muslim religious extremists, but Jewish religious extremists.

00:02:17.000 And that's something most Americans didn't know happened, didn't think could happen, particularly since the United States,

00:02:22.520 the most important Christian country in the world, is funding this.

00:02:25.800 And anyone who's raised this question, this show has done that, has been dismissed out of hand as a liar or an anti-Semite

00:02:35.960 or, best of all, a secret jihadi, a secret Muslim. 0.78

00:02:39.160 You must be a Muslim. 1.00

00:02:41.080 And so we thought it would be worth coming here to find out what the truth is, or at least getting closer to the truth,

00:02:46.120 the truth being pretty elusive usually in political terms, but why not go ahead and talk to people?

00:02:50.220 Why not go ahead and talk to Christians and find out their side of the story?

00:02:56.880 Why aren't Christian churches doing this?

00:02:58.580 Why aren't American Christian leaders like Mike Huckabee or Ted Cruz,

00:03:02.600 people who invoke the Christian Bible to justify what they're doing?

00:03:05.760 Why haven't they done this?

00:03:06.620 We can only guess, but they haven't.

00:03:09.180 They have funded the other side.

00:03:11.020 So we thought, let's talk to them.

00:03:12.460 So we are about to play interviews that we just did about five minutes ago with two Christians from this area.

00:03:18.500 One was born in Israel.

00:03:20.980 One was born in Jordan.

00:03:23.220 The one born in Israel was born, in fact, in Jesus' hometown of Nazareth.

00:03:28.420 His father was literally a carpenter, which is kind of hilarious.

00:03:31.460 He is now the Anglican Archbishop of Jerusalem,

00:03:34.940 which is to say he's the representative of the Anglican Church, the global Anglican Church in Jerusalem.

00:03:41.420 Whatever you think of the Anglican Church, it's not a small thing, and this is a very well-informed person.

00:03:45.980 And you can judge for yourself whether he's telling the truth or not.

00:03:48.940 Our view is he absolutely is telling the truth.

00:03:51.740 And the story that he's going to tell you in just a minute is pretty shocking if you're a Western Christian,

00:03:56.520 because it's a story of Christians being oppressed in Jerusalem by a government that American Christians pay for.

00:04:04.040 And the second person we're going to speak to is a businessman who runs a bank here in Jordan from a very prominent Christian family.

00:04:11.500 And if you're an American, you may be surprised to learn that in Jordan, a country that is probably 97% Muslim,

00:04:19.400 Christians who have been here for, of course, 2,000 years are disproportionately represented at the higher end of the economy,

00:04:26.800 which is to say there's a large number of Christian families who are hugely successful in Jordan and have been for a long time,

00:04:34.840 since the creation of the state about 100 years ago.

00:04:38.920 That's not something you're going to see on CNN.

00:04:42.240 How would Christians thrive in a Muslim country? 1.00

00:04:45.960 And we're not experts on this, of course, being not that well-versed in Islam.

00:04:50.260 But we thought it would be worth talking to a sincere Christian whose family's been here for 2,000 years and ask, how did that happen?

00:04:59.680 And what does it tell us about our understanding of what's actually happening in the Holy Land, in Jordan, the West Bank, and Israel, which, again, is right there.

00:05:11.260 We are 25 miles from Jerusalem.

00:05:14.360 And so with that, keep an open mind, listen carefully to what sincere Christians in this area have to say about what's happening here,

00:05:24.460 and you may find a story that shocks you.

00:05:28.120 Archbishop, thank you.

00:05:29.940 You live in Jerusalem, but we're on the other side.

00:05:33.660 We're about 100 yards from Israel across the West Bank, across the Jordan.

00:05:38.500 How are Christians doing in the Holy Land?

00:05:41.240 You know, Christians in the Holy Land, of course, have been here for 2,000 years.

00:05:46.240 Yes.

00:05:46.680 And over the history, the Christian community has thrived in phases, you know, like declined in others.

00:05:52.920 But I think now we are on the declining end of our Christian presence in the Holy Land.

00:06:00.580 In general, we're still living our faith, witnessing to our communities,

00:06:05.520 and also trying to kind of maintain our presence.

00:06:10.900 And I'm sorry to say that because maintaining, because maintenance is not on the good side of things.

00:06:16.440 No, it's not growth.

00:06:17.340 Yeah, it's not growth, it's not thriving, it's not accomplishing and achieving.

00:06:22.200 We are custodians of the Christian faith, and Jerusalem is the capital of our faith.

00:06:31.040 It's our spiritual capital as Christians.

00:06:33.740 But to see the declining numbers of Christians over the decades,

00:06:37.440 and especially since like 48 and 67,

00:06:41.100 we have seen like challenging phases of Christians facing realities that we were not used to before.

00:06:50.940 So, 1948 was the year that the political state of Israel was created.

00:06:55.920 That's correct.

00:06:56.980 And a huge percentage of the Arab population was expelled that year.

00:07:01.200 1967, the Six-Day War increased the territory of the state,

00:07:07.400 and the majority is now called occupied territory.

00:07:09.820 Were there big declines after both of those in the Christian population?

00:07:15.540 Absolutely.

00:07:16.060 So, you can think about, you know, the Christian population,

00:07:19.440 it dwinded into half in 1948 because many people had to leave what is my homeland,

00:07:26.740 you know, like where I grew in Nazareth, in Galilee.

00:07:30.560 Half of the Palestinian population had to be expelled to other places.

00:07:35.400 And who became refugees?

00:07:37.460 So, when we speak about Palestinian refugees today,

00:07:39.820 they are all coming or came from what is proper Israel today.

00:07:45.740 What I think most Americans don't understand is that some large number of those refugees

00:07:50.520 who were expelled by force from their land were Christian.

00:07:54.380 Yeah, there are many Christians, absolutely.

00:07:56.880 Let me tell you something.

00:07:57.860 Our congregation in Beirut, all saints, is 90% they come from Haifa, Akko, Nazareth,

00:08:08.560 and other places around Galilee.

00:08:10.680 You know, 90% of, imagine, of the Anglican community in Beirut are Palestinian Christians who come from Galilee.

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00:10:22.200 So, in the United States, as you may or may not know,

00:10:27.640 Palestinian is a synonym, is the same word for Islamic terrorist.

00:10:32.580 When people in the American media say Palestinian,

00:10:35.500 it means someone who's an Islamist, basically.

00:10:38.600 But you're saying that a lot of those Palestinians' refugees were Christians, Anglicans even.

00:10:45.320 No, absolutely.

00:10:45.960 I think there are many places in the world where people can use words that mean something really horrific.

00:10:52.520 Yes.

00:10:52.980 But I think that's demonizing.

00:10:55.400 For me, that's demonizing.

00:10:56.640 Well, it sounds also untrue.

00:10:58.340 Absolutely.

00:10:59.140 Because, you know, like, I think when you speak about Palestinians, I'm Palestinian.

00:11:02.920 Yeah.

00:11:03.380 And I'm an archbishop.

00:11:04.880 Do I look terrorist to you?

00:11:07.100 No.

00:11:08.220 You look like an Anglican, actually.

00:11:09.840 Yeah, so I think, you know, like, this is, again, this is like a kind of a killing the image of the Palestinian people

00:11:16.620 by claiming that they are terrorists or they are uncivilized or they are savages or, you know,

00:11:22.620 I think this is exactly like just pushing an agenda where they just want to frame you

00:11:27.940 so that Palestinians lose sympathy in the world.

00:11:32.900 That's basically what it is.

00:11:33.740 What's striking to me is that that narrative, as you said, that image is being pushed not just by Jewish supporters of Israel,

00:11:41.820 but in the United States, heavily by Christian supporters of Israel.

00:11:45.900 Christian supporters of Israel in the U.S. are dismissing their brother Christians in this region as terrorists.

00:11:54.200 And I totally agree.

00:11:56.960 There are lots of agendas.

00:11:58.800 And especially Christian, many Christians around the world, you know, who think that they are doing favor to the Jewish people.

00:12:06.480 Yes.

00:12:06.620 And I have, like, really kind of two full answers to that.

00:12:12.280 The first one is about Jews themselves.

00:12:15.900 You know, as we know, like, you know, there are many Jewish people, people of faith,

00:12:20.180 who see in these groups also as people who really don't work for their interest.

00:12:26.200 You know, we know what dispensationalism is.

00:12:28.680 Let me just get that one.

00:12:31.280 Dispensationalism, maybe?

00:12:32.000 We know what dispensationalism is about.

00:12:36.640 I know that, you know, politicians around the world, and especially, like, the colonial thinking of bringing the Jewish people to the Holy Land or to the land of Israel,

00:12:48.080 is something that can really kind of fit both agendas.

00:12:52.460 But actually, you know, and we have heard this time and time again from many Jewish people who say that this agenda,

00:12:58.900 eventually, you know, for all the Jewish people coming to their homelands, you know, becomes, again, a kind of like a trap 1.00

00:13:06.240 because they're all supposed to convert to Christianity or die.

00:13:10.680 Right.

00:13:11.080 So for them, this is an offense, you know, that thinking of Zionist Christian thinking 0.67

00:13:17.540 and that some narratives would be damaging even to Jewish people and Jewish faith.

00:13:23.020 Now, for us as Christians, of course, it's damaging because think about, like, let me tell you a story, a real story.

00:13:32.520 I once was in a kind of a community visiting England, and I was speaking about, you know, like, how some Christians who have Zionist approach to the whole politics and agendas,

00:13:47.380 you know, can be damaging to us as Christians in the Holy Land.

00:13:51.140 And they say, how come?

00:13:52.160 I said, you know, because this agenda of money coming from the West, sometimes, you know, like, they enable people, settlers, you know, to confiscate my own land.

00:14:04.640 Like, we have lots of examples in Bethlehem where money that comes from around the world is invested in building settlements on Christian land.

00:14:14.340 You know what the answer was?

00:14:17.540 They told me sometimes we need to make a sacrifice for a better good, a greater good.

00:14:22.580 Can you imagine that answer?

00:14:24.140 Christians told you this? 0.93

00:14:25.060 Yeah, yeah, Christians, you know, who, somebody told me this, and I, I had a youth group with me.

00:14:31.120 I'm telling you, they were in tears.

00:14:32.780 They were in tears.

00:14:34.800 How can a Christian brother or sister around the world take me as kind of means, no matter what happens to me?

00:14:44.340 How can, how can I really reconcile myself with this?

00:14:49.680 So this is, so from this story, I'm telling you that, you know, these views sometimes are damaging because, you know, they are exclusive.

00:14:59.520 I'm not, I'm not judging, you know, like Christian Zionists for their belief. 0.99

00:15:04.020 They can believe what they want to believe.

00:15:06.040 But when it comes to exclusion, excluding Palestinians, whether they are Christian or Muslim, right?

00:15:13.640 You know, I think this is where my problem lies in their ideology, if you know what I mean.

00:15:17.860 It doesn't sound, I mean, I think we can say that Christianity does not support violence.

00:15:25.560 Of course not.

00:15:26.420 Right.

00:15:27.000 Of course not.

00:15:27.340 We condemn violence, whatever.

00:15:28.920 Of course.

00:15:29.440 Whatever it is.

00:15:30.100 And I think Jesus is pretty clear on that.

00:15:31.980 Absolutely.

00:15:32.420 Could not be clearer.

00:15:33.160 So for a Christian to say, I support violence against other Christians because that's what Jesus wants, does that strike you as valid? 0.98

00:15:43.420 Is that, how can that be?

00:15:44.980 Indeed, you know, and this is why, you know, we always say that, you know, like Christianity is about bringing people together.

00:15:50.620 It's about forgiveness, reconciliation, peace building, you know, these are the values, the kind of the core values of Christianity.

00:16:01.240 And if we fail as Christians to do that, to bring people together, we are God's people.

00:16:06.540 We are God's children, whoever we may be.

00:16:09.340 Yes, we have our beliefs.

00:16:11.040 We have where we stand.

00:16:11.920 But we as Christians, we know that, and we have been saying this all along.

00:16:16.640 For 2,000 years, Christians have been witnessing to this truth from the beginning.

00:16:21.000 And, you know, that's why we continue to exist here.

00:16:24.660 Despite, you know, like the long history, our holy sites are our anchor here in the holy land.

00:16:31.460 So you are a Christian from Nazareth.

00:16:34.360 Yes.

00:16:35.120 Jesus' hometown.

00:16:36.540 Yes.

00:16:37.560 What did your father do?

00:16:39.440 No, my dad was a carpenter.

00:16:41.920 I knew that.

00:16:43.140 I just wanted to hear you say it because it's so funny.

00:16:45.100 You know, but we were also like, we are fishermen.

00:16:48.120 So if you ask me what you do for a hobby, that would be like fishing would be my...

00:16:51.740 Amazing.

00:16:52.460 No, it's just, I mean, you are a Christian from Nazareth in Galilee.

00:16:57.340 Amazing.

00:17:00.600 Compare Nazareth, its Christian population to your childhood to now. 1.00

00:17:06.080 Are there more Christians in Nazareth now or fewer?

00:17:08.820 Now, they are, if there aren't fewer, let me say like 50 years ago, I think they have not grown.

00:17:18.140 Yes.

00:17:19.040 Especially recently, like, you know, in the last maybe two decades, we have seen like an exodus of Christians, even from Nazareth.

00:17:25.920 And Galilee in general, due to many reasons.

00:17:29.700 Yes.

00:17:29.880 And we are talking now what is proper Israel today.

00:17:34.460 Now, in the West Bank is a different story because, you know, of the occupation, there is another narrative there.

00:17:39.140 Yeah.

00:17:39.280 But inside Israel today, there are so many pressures, not only on Christians, Christians or even some Jewish people who are also leaving the country.

00:17:48.680 Yes.

00:17:48.980 For different reasons.

00:17:49.920 Yes.

00:17:50.180 I see.

00:17:50.440 How much aid, how much money do Christians around the world send to Christians living in Nazareth?

00:17:59.820 Very minimal.

00:18:01.340 Very minimal.

00:18:02.360 Yeah.

00:18:03.740 How, really?

00:18:04.660 You know, we, the Anglican Church, of course, we have partners around the world.

00:18:10.140 Yes.

00:18:10.520 And they're in, especially like in the States, we have the American Friends of the Diocese of Jerusalem, Anglican, and they're doing fantastic support.

00:18:19.260 But if you kind of compare the amount of money that comes to the other side, we are talking about a drop in the ocean.

00:18:29.900 Really?

00:18:30.420 Yeah.

00:18:31.400 So Christian churches in the United States send more money to, say, Jewish settlements in the West Bank than they do to Christians in Jesus' hometown of Nazareth?

00:18:41.080 That's not a secret.

00:18:43.060 That's not a secret.

00:18:43.980 Everybody knows that.

00:18:45.620 Yeah.

00:18:48.100 What about Bethlehem?

00:18:50.180 Now, Bethlehem is a different challenge there.

00:18:53.320 I don't know if you have visited Bethlehem before, but you would see that the city is surrounded by the wall.

00:19:00.420 The separation wall that separates, you know, East Jerusalem, Jerusalem from Bethlehem.

00:19:08.080 And, you know, the occupation and the kind of the wall that separates the two countries now, and also majors and huge majors of restrictions, of movement.

00:19:21.160 And all of that is causing many people to leave the country.

00:19:24.940 And now, I think, imagine, like, 100,000 Christians in Bethlehem, let's say 50 years ago or so.

00:19:33.600 Today, we have less than 30,000.

00:19:37.720 Really?

00:19:38.480 Yeah.

00:19:38.860 Huge drop.

00:19:39.900 Do they receive aid from American Christian churches?

00:19:43.860 Not to my knowledge.

00:19:45.720 They might receive, like, projects here and there, but, you know, like, substantial money to keep their businesses.

00:19:51.880 You know, I just want you to go now, especially during the war, the Gaza war, in the last two years.

00:19:58.480 Go to Bethlehem and see what is happening.

00:20:00.200 I don't think I could.

00:20:01.460 The little town of Bethlehem is bleeding right now.

00:20:04.040 There's no business, no tourists, no visitors.

00:20:06.420 I don't understand.

00:20:07.520 So, the American Christian churches, broadly speaking, the church, Christians in the United States, is by far the richest in the world and the biggest.

00:20:16.060 And why wouldn't they send help to Christians in the town where Jesus was born and the town that he grew up?

00:20:24.820 You know, I'm sure that, you know, people may have different answers, but I think my answer would be the kind of the big answer would be, which could be shocking for some people.

00:20:34.460 That is that they would be concerned that they send the money and it ends up in the hands of the wrong people.

00:20:42.100 You know, like, let's be honest about this.

00:20:44.720 Well, if there's, let's just say, and I think that's a concern for everybody giving money to charity.

00:20:48.760 It's certainly a concern for me in general.

00:20:50.740 But if there's, say, a church, the Church of the Nativity, the one that the IDF shot people in, I've been there and it's kind of falling apart.

00:21:02.480 And I remember thinking, where are the Christians around the world to support the Church of the Nativity on the site where Jesus, their Savior, was born?

00:21:10.240 Indeed.

00:21:11.340 And that's why, you know, like you would see.

00:21:12.440 I just don't understand that.

00:21:13.540 You know, I don't understand that either.

00:21:15.460 But let me tell you something like, you know, an example, like how charity starts at home.

00:21:22.680 You know, we know that our king here in Jordan, King Abdullah, has donated substantial amount of money to the repair of the Nativity and the Holy Sepulchre.

00:21:33.440 And the same thing happened also partially with the Palestinian Authority.

00:21:37.360 And also there are money that came also from partners from Europe and other places as well.

00:21:44.580 But, you know, the amount of money, as you said, like, you know, and the charity that you think that could be given to the Christian community to enforce and, you know, maintain its presence in the Holy Land.

00:21:58.140 You don't see that in ways that you could imagine that sisters and brothers in Christ, siblings in Christ around the world would be given to their church.

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00:24:34.880 So I think Americans watching this may be confused to hear that a Muslim king of Jordan

00:24:41.880 is giving money to Christian holy sites in Israel and the West Bank.

00:24:48.920 Tell us how that arrangement works.

00:24:51.840 Why would that be a Muslim king's responsibility? 1.00

00:24:54.360 Yeah, so there's something here in the Holy Land has been for a long time,

00:25:00.000 what we call the status quo, or the existing reality, especially on holy sites.

00:25:06.760 On Haram Sharif, many people in the West call it Temple Mount,

00:25:11.880 and also in the Holy Sepulchre, and the holy sites in Jerusalem.

00:25:16.480 The Church of the Holy Sepulchre is the place where Jesus' tomb.

00:25:20.160 Yeah, which is the Church of the Resurrection, what we call it in Arabic as well,

00:25:24.640 Canist al-Qiyami.

00:25:26.280 So for a long time, the king of Jordan, under the Hashemite custodianship of holy sites, 0.96

00:25:34.300 the king personally is the custodian of holy sites of Christian and Muslim holy sites in Jerusalem.

00:25:40.480 So the king of Jordan is the custodian of both Al-Aqsa Mosque and of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.

00:25:49.160 That's correct.

00:25:50.540 And that remains the case today.

00:25:53.460 That remains the case today, and it will remain for a long time.

00:25:57.020 Even though it's extremely difficult for Jordanians to go the 25 miles over there to Jerusalem.

00:26:03.060 No, that's correct.

00:26:03.840 So I think, you know, like people like myself and the heads of churches,

00:26:06.980 Yes.

00:26:07.300 as well as Al-Aqaf and the sheikhs in Jerusalem,

00:26:10.580 we will be the manifestation of the reality, of the custodianship.

00:26:16.000 It's just so interesting.

00:26:17.440 Why does that persist today?

00:26:19.380 And is that a good arrangement, the status quo that you described?

00:26:22.420 Of course, it's not only good, but I think for us, it saves the character of Jerusalem,

00:26:29.160 where the three faiths, both Christianity, Judaism, and Islam,

00:26:33.660 can exist side by side without any problems.

00:26:36.920 Wouldn't it be easier just to hand the custodianship over to the government that runs it,

00:26:41.220 which is the Israeli government, its political capitals in Jerusalem?

00:26:44.720 That will be partial, and it will be exclusive.

00:26:47.880 How do you think Christian holy sites would do, and Muslim holy sites would do? 0.98

00:26:51.740 You know, we have, let me give you an example where, you know, like the holy sepulcher.

00:26:57.320 For different reasons, we, for a long time, during Holy Saturday, which is the holy fire,

00:27:02.820 one of the most sacred days in the Christian calendar.

00:27:06.740 Yes.

00:27:07.420 Of course, this is the night before Easter.

00:27:09.520 Yes.

00:27:09.780 You know, the restrictions that the police there enforce on pilgrims is unprecedented.

00:27:16.620 You know, it's something that, you know, we always plead, please, you know, let the pilgrims come and enjoy.

00:27:22.060 Now this is happening?

00:27:22.900 Now this is happening every year.

00:27:24.260 Now, yes, of course.

00:27:25.820 Last year and the year before.

00:27:26.460 So just to be clear, the Israeli government is preventing Christians from celebrating Easter in Jerusalem?

00:27:31.800 You know, yes, they are preventing Christians and pilgrims from celebrating Easter, you know,

00:27:36.680 and the claim is, according to the police there, for safety reasons.

00:27:40.280 You know, but we're telling them, like, you know, for almost next, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre was built in 300-something.

00:27:48.700 Okay, you know, that's 1,700 years ago.

00:27:51.660 And we have always, you know, celebrated the holy fire.

00:27:55.400 We always celebrated and welcomed Easter.

00:27:58.100 We didn't hear of somebody get banned or somebody got, like, stamped.

00:28:01.900 They're Christian pilgrims.

00:28:03.020 They're not terrorists.

00:28:04.300 Indeed.

00:28:04.560 And then, but, you know, now, under the kind of Israeli law for safety procedures,

00:28:09.860 they are restricting the number of Christians going into the Holy Sepulchre.

00:28:13.700 Instead of 10,000, they are restricting that sometimes to 1,500.

00:28:18.960 And by negotiation, you can get them close to, like, 3,000.

00:28:23.160 This is by miracle, you know, if you're lucky.

00:28:26.100 You know, again, you know, for them, to be fair, they're saying that for safety reasons,

00:28:32.060 we're not allowing people in.

00:28:33.300 And this is the discussion every year that we have.

00:28:36.040 Are there similar restrictions on Jewish religions' observances in Jerusalem?

00:28:40.700 In Israel, generally, there have been some.

00:28:42.700 There have been an incident in the north, in Maroon,

00:28:46.800 where people, like I said, the community was celebrating a very famous holy site.

00:28:52.180 Yes.

00:28:52.640 And the bridge collapsed and 150 people died.

00:28:57.520 Oof.

00:28:58.200 And since that time, they were restricting more and more public worship.

00:29:02.600 And I will tell you an incident as well, you know, like we're on the Mount of Tabor,

00:29:06.940 which is the Transfiguration Mountain that the Holy Orthodox Church celebrates every year.

00:29:13.860 Also, there have been restrictions there because of safety,

00:29:16.840 not to allow pilgrims to go to the Holy Mountain for the celebration of Transfiguration.

00:29:21.340 This is the fourth year in rule that they're not allowed pilgrims to go up for the celebration.

00:29:28.080 Again, under safety restrictions.

00:29:30.640 Have there been, in your lifetime, safety problems with Christians celebrating Easter in Jerusalem?

00:29:39.340 Not to my knowledge.

00:29:40.240 So, the U.S. ambassador to Israel, Mike Huckabee, is a Christian minister.

00:29:47.520 Yeah.

00:29:47.960 What has he done to help Christians celebrate Easter in Jerusalem?

00:29:53.140 We are in touch with the American embassy.

00:29:59.420 And we are also trying to kind of ask Huckabee and also the staff in the embassy

00:30:03.780 to help the Christian community talk to Israel in order to enlarge the numbers of people who celebrate Easter.

00:30:11.680 You know, sometimes they are successful in raising the number.

00:30:14.020 Sometimes they are not successful.

00:30:15.160 But, again, the issue, again, this is an internal matter.

00:30:18.760 Have you spoke?

00:30:20.420 Right.

00:30:20.880 But are ambassadors very involved in internal matters in Israel?

00:30:24.620 Of course.

00:30:25.880 Have you spoken to Ambassador Huckabee?

00:30:29.060 I believe to him from afar, you know, but, you know, other heads of churches have spoken to him.

00:30:32.760 Yes.

00:30:33.680 But he hasn't called you?

00:30:35.800 He hasn't called me personally, no.

00:30:39.140 Have American politicians called since the U.S. is funding a lot of this?

00:30:45.160 Have American politicians, Christian politicians called to ask you what they can do to help Christians in Jerusalem?

00:30:52.500 You know, we reach out.

00:30:53.880 They reach out, you know, especially, like, you know, talking about different issues.

00:30:57.740 Like, let me give you an example.

00:30:59.020 You know, I'm trying to kind of get to my hospital in Gaza, for example.

00:31:03.160 Yes.

00:31:03.600 And I'm trying to kind of get permission to go there, but I'm not allowed.

00:31:08.260 To go to your hospital in Gaza?

00:31:09.940 Yes.

00:31:11.240 Why?

00:31:11.620 You see, I have an Israeli citizenship because I come from Nazareth, so I'm an Israeli citizen.

00:31:18.000 You are an Israeli.

00:31:19.420 Yeah.

00:31:19.760 Well, yes.

00:31:20.840 But, you know, at the same time, so basically I'm not allowed in according to their calculations.

00:31:26.080 Why?

00:31:26.320 So I try to ask, you know, the kind of our friends from the American embassy and other places, you know, in order to intervene.

00:31:33.780 But the answer is no.

00:31:36.440 So Huckabee hasn't helped you get to your Christian hospital in Gaza?

00:31:40.600 I don't want to blame Huckabee for this, you know, but again, you know, I…

00:31:43.120 He's the ambassador.

00:31:43.580 No, I know you have to be diplomatic.

00:31:44.980 I just, I'm just surprised that someone who, you know, is a minister isn't doing more for Christians in this region.

00:31:53.660 Yeah, again, but again, it's about my safety, I guess.

00:31:56.860 Your safety.

00:31:57.640 Would you feel unsafe going to Gaza?

00:31:59.200 Absolutely not.

00:32:00.940 I've been to Gaza many, many times.

00:32:02.500 And actually, two days before the war, I was there with bishops, you know, we visited the hospital, and I've been trying to visit the hospital, you know.

00:32:14.140 Others were successful, like other heads of churches managed to go there, both patriarchs, but I haven't, unfortunately.

00:32:21.760 It's a Christian hospital.

00:32:23.380 It's an Anglican Episcopal Christian hospital.

00:32:26.580 What is the name of it?

00:32:27.740 Al-Ahli Arab Hospital.

00:32:29.140 What kind of condition is it in?

00:32:34.160 It is now kind of in a condition that operates on minimal capacity.

00:32:41.820 I don't know, I'm sure that people have been following, I don't know how many people know about this, but it was hit at least eight times during the war.

00:32:48.460 It was bombed eight times?

00:32:49.700 Yeah.

00:32:50.320 Why?

00:32:51.940 You know, there are different accusations why it happened.

00:32:54.660 You know, I kind of suspect, you know, suspicion about, like, activities in the hospital.

00:33:01.240 And every time we asked for people to kind of prove, you know, what was happening there so that we at least know what is going on in our hospital.

00:33:10.040 But every time we hear nothing.

00:33:11.980 Were people killed in those bombings?

00:33:15.760 You know, on two incidents, there have been two big explosions.

00:33:20.240 The first one happened only two weeks after the, or even less than two weeks from the beginning.

00:33:25.500 On the 17th of October, 2003, where a huge rocket fell.

00:33:32.460 And it became a critical controversy.

00:33:35.140 Israel accused Islamic Jihad for a misrocketed missile.

00:33:40.320 You know, in Gaza, they said, no, it was Israeli rocket that came in.

00:33:44.600 And there were two narratives at that time.

00:33:46.740 Anyway, but this is the kind of thing that we have.

00:33:48.740 Do we know the answer now?

00:33:49.940 No, I don't, I don't know the answer.

00:33:51.980 People asked me and I said, like, do I look like a soldier to you that to tell you what happened there?

00:33:56.780 Well, it's your government.

00:33:57.720 You were born in the country and you can't get a straight answer about your hospital?

00:34:01.220 No.

00:34:02.360 No, it was, their answer was that, you know, it was a misrocketed missile.

00:34:08.760 But it was bombed seven more times?

00:34:10.600 Yeah.

00:34:11.480 Do we know who did that?

00:34:12.880 No, the other ones, you know, Israelis did that. 0.94

00:34:15.780 They, they, we didn't comment.

00:34:17.720 Did they not know it was a hospital?

00:34:19.040 No, they know it was a hospital.

00:34:20.880 Why would they bomb a hospital?

00:34:22.900 A Christian hospital? 0.96

00:34:23.860 Again, you know, but as I said, you know, they, they say when they do that, that there

00:34:28.520 is suspicion of terrorist activities in the hospital.

00:34:31.780 You can see all these people here, they just came out of the dunes.

00:34:34.280 There's got to be around a hundred of them.

00:34:35.940 And now a boat's going to try to come around and pick them up.

00:34:37.600 In a single generation, Europe has changed forever. 0.97

00:34:41.100 This is the result of decades of mass migration.

00:34:44.080 More than it has in the last 2,000 years.

00:34:46.400 Whoa, easy, easy, easy.

00:34:47.400 Whoa, whoa, whoa.

00:34:48.360 We followed one of the deadliest trade routes on earth, from Africa to the Canary Islands

00:34:52.880 to Spain, France, ending in the UK.

00:34:55.100 In many cities, natives are now the minority.

00:34:57.320 This was not an accident, didn't happen organically, you're not imagining it.

00:35:00.580 The governments of Western Europe and the United States and Canada, New Zealand, and Australia

00:35:05.400 did this on purpose to their own people.

00:35:08.480 They opened their border and they paid for the rest of the world, the third world, to move 1.00

00:35:12.180 into their countries.

00:35:12.920 This is what happens when you let a bunch of foreigners completely overtake your country. 1.00

00:35:17.440 Along the way, we uncovered the entire system of criminal networks, NGOs, and criminal governments

00:35:22.380 coordinating together to destroy the West.

00:35:24.440 Watch Replacing Europe only on tuckercarlson.com.

00:35:30.000 How many people have been killed in Gaza?

00:35:33.780 Now we know that, you know, I think I heard, I just read recently that even the government

00:35:40.320 admitted that there are 70,000 who were killed, which they didn't before.

00:35:45.060 But I need to kind of, again, my sources are not kind of 100%, but at least from our perspective,

00:35:51.560 we have heard and we have seen that there are 70,000 people who were killed.

00:35:57.780 Many of them are children and women, not terrorists, according to Israeli categories.

00:36:03.760 Do we have any idea what percentage were women and children?

00:36:07.660 You know, there are statistics out there, but I'm sure the vast majority are women and children.

00:36:13.160 Is it possible to know who can go to Gaza at some point?

00:36:20.460 I think it's fair to ask, like, what happened over the last couple of years in Gaza?

00:36:25.140 Are we ever going to know?

00:36:28.480 You know, like, you know, I'm sure that we will know in one way or the other.

00:36:33.120 But again, I think the catastrophe that happened there, nothing will heal.

00:36:39.040 I just kind of, just by seeing the amount of destruction and death that happened there,

00:36:46.760 it just breaks one's heart.

00:36:48.740 There are no words.

00:36:50.420 Again, you know, I'm sure that people will know, like, who did it and why they did it

00:36:53.640 and how did it come.

00:36:55.180 And, you know, but for us, you know, the bottom line, there are people who are suffering,

00:36:59.160 there are people who are dying.

00:37:00.840 And that's the result of violence, you know, which is devastating for us.

00:37:09.040 How are you treated in Israel?

00:37:13.760 Depending where you live, where you are, where you're walking.

00:37:16.920 So I think, you know, in many places in Israel, where you are respected,

00:37:20.760 there's freedom of movement.

00:37:22.040 I can go in most places.

00:37:24.680 There are places that are restricted to any civilian, if you know what I mean.

00:37:27.700 Yes.

00:37:27.920 But, you know, in general, I can go in many places.

00:37:31.000 You know, if I'm walking in the old city, for example, if I'm in my suit, all good and well,

00:37:38.940 you know, of course, the mosaic is so beautiful there.

00:37:41.400 People living together, walking together, you would enjoy the souk.

00:37:45.540 But sometimes if I'm wearing my cross and my cassock, I could be treated differently by some groups.

00:37:52.360 How are you treated?

00:37:52.960 I could, maybe I could spat at, for example.

00:37:57.040 Has someone ever spit at you?

00:37:58.100 Yes.

00:37:59.340 Really?

00:38:00.020 Yeah.

00:38:00.560 More than once?

00:38:01.580 More than once.

00:38:03.180 Yeah.

00:38:03.980 Why?

00:38:05.820 I just, I think, you know, I asked this question, why?

00:38:08.700 And in many cases, I have seen that, you know, like in many schools in the Jewish sector, who have, this is the answer that I receive, who have bad flashes of memories of persecution.

00:38:28.920 The cross reminds them of persecution and expulsion and what have you.

00:38:35.320 So they're teaching their children that the cross is a sign of persecution and they'll spit on Christians?

00:38:41.060 Yeah.

00:38:41.760 And, you know, we know that, you know, there are so many, many, not many, but there are some.

00:38:46.200 And these are fringe groups that we have, as heads of churches, spoke about when we, when there's vandalism of churches, when there is a spitting at clergy, when there is doing nasty things to clergy.

00:39:00.240 What kind of nasty things?

00:39:01.520 I don't know, kind of, say that on the air.

00:39:08.200 I don't know what I say, but they're doing like really shameful things, you know, in front of church doors.

00:39:15.700 Really?

00:39:16.340 Yeah, yeah.

00:39:17.240 I've seen that being caught on camera many times.

00:39:20.720 Oh, you act like this, everyone knows this.

00:39:22.640 I don't think many people in America know this, to Christian churches and Christian clergy.

00:39:26.660 Yeah, and again, you know, these are like French group of people who are radicals, you know, who live in Jerusalem. 0.96

00:39:34.800 Their main mission is to purify Jerusalem from infidels, Christians. 1.00

00:39:41.160 That's their mission.

00:39:43.480 And they say it out loud, it's on their website, you know, it's nothing hidden.

00:39:47.480 Are you talking about Al-Qaeda or?

00:39:49.620 No, no, I'm talking about Jewish radical groups, settler groups, yeah.

00:39:54.140 Do you face vandalism from Islamic groups in Jerusalem?

00:39:59.000 No, not to my knowledge, no.

00:40:01.280 We don't have, we don't have in Jerusalem?

00:40:03.600 Yes.

00:40:04.220 No.

00:40:04.420 So, in the United States, after 9-11, we were told, and I think it was true, that there were these madrasas, these schools, Islamic schools, that were producing radicalism, true radicalism, against the infidel, Christians and Jews. 0.99

00:40:21.340 It sounds like something similar is going on in Jerusalem now, and you're the target of it. 0.66

00:40:25.500 Can you talk?

00:40:26.460 I mean, that's clearly bad.

00:40:28.740 Can you, is there anyone you can talk to about this?

00:40:31.360 Yeah, we've talked to the police, we've talked to the government, and there are restrictions, you know, the one thing about this, you know, that we were, say, that told, you know, that spitting on people is not a charge.

00:40:43.680 Now, we need to have a law that forbids this, or there will be a kind of punishment to somebody who spits, or something like that.

00:40:52.580 So, there's no law.

00:40:54.440 So, the people brought, if you press charges, they bring them in, and they release the next day.

00:40:59.960 There's no law in Israel against spitting on Christians?

00:41:04.480 No, spitting in general, not on Christians, you know, like, you know.

00:41:06.820 But you can walk up and spit in someone's face for religious reasons?

00:41:09.460 No, that's something different, and the spitting doesn't happen, like, you know, directly at you.

00:41:12.920 So, like, if I'm passing, they would be spitting, like, in front of you, like, but it's directed to you, but not on you, person.

00:41:20.540 They don't touch you.

00:41:22.260 They don't touch you.

00:41:24.340 How common is that?

00:41:25.620 I don't know.

00:41:29.740 I don't have statistics, but, you know.

00:41:31.220 No, but in your experience, you live there.

00:41:33.440 Quite often, you know, like, it happens, you know, I don't say on a daily basis, but, you know, it happens quite often.

00:41:38.080 Even an Israeli channel did actually one time a kind of a secret investigation, and they dressed somebody in a castle with a cross, and they walked into the old city with hidden cameras.

00:41:55.800 And, you know, they caught one, like, right there on camera, and then they spoke about it in Israeli channels.

00:42:06.080 Good for them.

00:42:07.080 Yeah, of course, you know, they name some, sometimes, quite often, they name things, but, again, nothing happens.

00:42:12.560 That's the problem, like, you know, and that's why we have insisted on talking about reconciliation and building trust within the community, you know, calling the rabbis and, you know, the imams and the Christian leaders, you know, to teach their children about tolerance, about acceptance, and to refrain from incitement.

00:42:34.760 You know, an exclusion and alienation and demonizing the other.

00:42:39.580 No, Jerusalem is such a beautiful place.

00:42:41.600 It's a sacred place.

00:42:42.840 Yes, it is.

00:42:43.520 But we have, you know, like, groups, and talking about, you know, like, you know, extremists, you know, like, in every religion, there is extremists.

00:42:52.040 Of course.

00:42:52.560 And we're not saying that, you know, like, only one.

00:42:55.720 Our Christian history is not, you know, like, neither clear or pure.

00:43:01.480 We've had some Christian extremists, for sure. 1.00

00:43:03.360 Indeed.

00:43:04.760 But, you know, that's why, you know, today, I think, in the 21st century, it's important that we reconsider a lot of our views, even as religious people, how we view other people around us.

00:43:18.600 Yes.

00:43:19.020 And I wish, that's my prayer, you know, we have always said, you know, like, the Holy Land, the Middle East, Christians, Muslims, and Jews lived together here for centuries.

00:43:30.540 Yes.

00:43:30.800 This is not something that we knew that we're trying to understand.

00:43:33.760 No.

00:43:34.140 How to live together or how to manage our relationships.

00:43:37.820 You know, but, you know, unfortunately, I don't want to kind of accuse anybody, but outside forces have caused us to fight among ourselves.

00:43:46.960 I've noticed.

00:43:47.520 Unfortunately, that's what, that's how we see it.

00:43:49.440 So has the extremism in Jerusalem, I mean, just to restate, you were born in the state of Israel, you're an Israeli citizen, so you would know, has it become more pronounced?

00:44:01.120 Is there more extremism now, do you think?

00:44:03.840 There's more extremism, extremism, and I can see, and that's on every side.

00:44:10.720 Yeah.

00:44:10.960 That happens.

00:44:11.760 You see, the thing that, you know, the more you have extremist group on one side, the more you have the response of other extremists on the other side.

00:44:18.040 So it happens all across the communities, unfortunately.

00:44:23.440 But right now, it seems like there is no Christian extremism.

00:44:26.640 I haven't seen any Christian terrorism groups here.

00:44:29.200 I wouldn't say, like, terrorist groups Christian, but, you know, there are some who have extremist views.

00:44:34.740 Yes.

00:44:35.020 We see pockets coming up every now and then.

00:44:37.980 I'm sure.

00:44:38.840 But we, as heads of churches, always say and talk to our children, you know, don't forget that you are Christian, and you have to abide by our Christian faith.

00:44:50.860 You know, like, any engagement in violence or military or ensignment is something that does not speak about our identity or our faith.

00:45:00.860 Do Christians serve in the IDF?

00:45:02.400 There are very, very few who do.

00:45:06.360 Not many.

00:45:07.960 Why?

00:45:09.040 Why do they do serve?

00:45:10.260 Why don't they serve?

00:45:11.880 No, because they see themselves as, first of all, it's not compulsory for them.

00:45:18.480 So it's not compulsory for Arab citizens of Israel to serve in the army, and therefore they don't. 0.99

00:45:26.120 But there are very few who do.

00:45:27.400 And again, you know, let's remember that the Arabs inside Israel, they are Palestinians.

00:45:34.720 By origin, at least, they are Palestinians, you know.

00:45:36.940 And imagine, like, you know, I served Nablus, which is Shechem in the West Bank, the city in the northern part of the West Bank.

00:45:47.100 And I was responsible for two congregations there.

00:45:50.200 And I got married from Nablus.

00:45:52.000 So my wife is Palestinian.

00:45:53.140 And imagine, like, you know, if I, you know, I would be like a soldier in the West Bank rather than a priest in the West Bank.

00:46:05.040 How would I treat my own people?

00:46:09.360 Like, it doesn't make sense.

00:46:10.620 You know, for me, it's just to think about the matter is just kind of makes me, I don't know, faint, maybe.

00:46:18.980 What's happening?

00:46:19.700 A lot of attention in the United States has been paid to Gaza, some attention.

00:46:25.000 What's happening in the West Bank?

00:46:26.280 In the West Bank, I think, you know, and we have seen over the past few weeks especially, and actually not only a few weeks, you know, during, even during the war, the escalation of violence of settlers in the West Bank has risen drastically.

00:46:47.120 And not only to kind of Muslim neighborhoods and villages, but also to Christian villages.

00:46:56.280 Really?

00:46:57.440 Yeah.

00:46:58.740 Can you give me an example?

00:47:00.220 Yeah, I can give you an example of the two recent examples is one in the town of Taipei, where actually you mentioned the ambassador Hacabi.

00:47:11.560 He himself went there to visit the village after these attacks of settlers burning and graffiti on walls and going into these farms to harass farmers who are Christian.

00:47:26.280 And recently also in Birzeit near Ramallah, where we had an attack of settlers on a woman, they hit her with a stone in the head and then they arrested her son after that.

00:47:37.640 Why did they arrest her son?

00:47:39.240 Because he tried to defend her, like his mother.

00:47:43.300 And because of that, you know, he, he was arrested.

00:47:47.580 And these are Christians? 0.53

00:47:49.560 Yeah.

00:47:50.080 Yeah, he's Christian.

00:47:50.880 How many U.S. administration officials weighed in on this?

00:47:56.720 Did Ambassador Hacabi say anything about this?

00:47:59.240 No, he, he definitely said something about Taipei.

00:48:02.800 I haven't seen anything about the last incident, but he went there in person actually and visited the police.

00:48:09.000 But the most recent attack where a Christian woman was attacked by settlers with a rock to the head and her son was arrested for trying to defend her.

00:48:15.820 Ambassador Hacabi hasn't said anything about that.

00:48:17.560 I didn't see anything myself, but he could later.

00:48:20.740 You would know since you're the archbishop in Jerusalem, I think.

00:48:25.600 I'm sorry, I just want to, I just want to be very clear about his shameful anti-Christian behavior.

00:48:30.780 I just want to be very clear about what I'm saying.

00:48:32.780 What Ambassador Hacabi is doing is shameful and he's going to have to answer for it.

00:48:36.360 So if that's my opinion, you don't have to ratify that.

00:48:38.380 But it's shocking to me.

00:48:41.720 So more broadly, why would these attacks be accelerating?

00:48:46.840 Why would there be more attacks now?

00:48:49.400 No, I think the less the IDF and the Israeli government persecutes those who do these shameful actions,

00:48:59.560 which I call evil and sin, actually.

00:49:01.820 Yes, of course.

00:49:03.220 The more they do.

00:49:05.860 That's the norm, unfortunately.

00:49:08.380 Let me just close by contrasting your experience in your country, Israel, where you live,

00:49:15.480 with the experience in Jordan.

00:49:18.780 Are there attacks on Christians in Jordan?

00:49:22.480 That question makes me laugh, first of all.

00:49:24.680 Well, in the United States, we're told that Christians are murdered in the Middle East by Muslims.

00:49:30.100 This is a country run by a Muslim king.

00:49:33.940 And so it would be interesting to know how many Christians are driven off their land here.

00:49:38.600 You know, quite often, you know, I see on the TV or even in many reports, you know,

00:49:47.600 many people when they see us in the streets sometimes, a few people who see us in the streets sometimes,

00:49:52.140 in Jerusalem or other places, they will tell us as Arabs,

00:49:56.520 please go to Syria, go to Jordan, go to, like, why are you staying here? 0.96

00:50:05.360 They ask us this question.

00:50:08.120 To you?

00:50:09.620 Yeah, to me and to others, you know, any Arab.

00:50:12.000 Many people say, like, why are you staying here?

00:50:15.020 Like, just go to an Arab country. 1.00

00:50:16.860 They say that to your face?

00:50:18.100 Yeah, they would say that to my face.

00:50:20.800 And, you know, like, honestly speaking, you know, sometimes, you know,

00:50:26.140 and I'm saying that sarcastically, of course, you know, I think about it and I think they are right 0.80

00:50:31.240 because, you know, when I come to Jordan, I feel more at home than being in other places inside,

00:50:36.660 you know, in my own home country.

00:50:38.740 Honestly.

00:50:39.860 How long has your family been in Jesus' hometown of Nazareth?

00:50:46.120 Four.

00:50:46.800 You know, I wish I had my family three going back to the time of Jesus,

00:50:51.680 but I think, you know, you remind me of a question, if I may paraphrase your question.

00:50:57.820 You said, when people, I tell people that I'm Christian from Nazareth,

00:51:02.460 and they tell me, oh, nice, this is really cool.

00:51:06.280 So when were you converted?

00:51:08.300 So I tell them 2,000 years ago.

00:51:11.840 That's my answer.

00:51:13.040 Like, you know, come on, Christianity started in places like the baptism site here,

00:51:19.020 like Bethlehem, like Nazareth, where the angel appeared to Mary.

00:51:23.740 Jesus is from Nazareth.

00:51:25.780 He is from Nazareth.

00:51:26.840 Mary is from Nazareth.

00:51:28.020 But, you know, so that's, it's ignorance.

00:51:30.320 Again, it's ignorance.

00:51:31.740 And sometimes it's deliberate, intentional ignorance even.

00:51:35.460 Again, it's all pretty amazing.

00:51:37.620 Does that happen to you when you're in Jordan?

00:51:40.060 Because there are, of course, holy sites here.

00:51:41.880 We're at one right now.

00:51:44.360 You know, again, I said, like, I feel blessed where I am.

00:51:49.220 When I travel in my own diocese, I go to Lebanon.

00:51:53.620 I come here to Jordan, my other home.

00:51:56.260 I'm also a Jordanian.

00:51:58.100 I consider myself a Jordanian citizen by virtue of being responsible in this place for my community.

00:52:05.000 But honestly speaking, like, whenever I come to this place, Jordan, Lebanon even, I feel like, you know, this is my home.

00:52:14.480 I feel myself, like, fulfilled.

00:52:18.000 Because I know that I'm free in this country.

00:52:20.400 I can be myself without being worrying that I would be spat at or...

00:52:27.000 But Jordan is 98% Muslim.

00:52:29.960 Yes.

00:52:30.220 But you feel freer here.

00:52:32.880 I feel, yeah, of course.

00:52:34.400 At this point in time, yes.

00:52:38.140 I do feel free.

00:52:42.260 Do you have a message to Christians in the United States?

00:52:46.780 No, I have a message, yes, to say that, you know, my dear sisters and brothers, in Christ and in humanity.

00:52:54.720 You know, I want you to think about these places as treasures.

00:53:00.320 Now, these places, Jordan, Palestine, you know, the Galilee inside what Israel today, these are places that actually embraced the descent and the incarnation of our faith as Christians.

00:53:14.120 We need to preserve these places.

00:53:16.780 We need to support the people here, not only Christians.

00:53:20.100 I'm not saying, like, we need to be only looking at Christians, but supporting people who live here because your support, you know, ensures the character of these places to be a safe home for all the people who live here, whether they are Jews, Christians, Muslims.

00:53:35.640 That's right.

00:53:36.280 Because we are all God's children.

00:53:38.060 We have been living together here for a long time.

00:53:41.300 And please, you know, I just want to say a small example.

00:53:44.860 If you want to pray for whoever whom your heart loves, okay, please don't divide us by your prayers.

00:53:53.080 Don't further divide us by your prayers.

00:53:55.200 We want you to pray for all the people of the Holy Land.

00:53:59.600 Thank you, Archbishop.

00:54:00.560 I appreciate it.

00:54:01.480 Thank you very much.

00:54:02.960 Seth, thank you for doing this.

00:54:04.420 One of the reasons I wanted to talk to you was even I was amazed to discover how many prominent, like, truly prominent Christian families there are in Jordan.

00:54:14.420 A lot.

00:54:15.220 And you're from one of the most prominent.

00:54:17.260 What's it like to be a Christian in an overwhelmingly Muslim country here?

00:54:22.020 Well, you know, Christians here in Jordan have always felt, you know, really one and the same with the Muslims in Jordan.

00:54:28.400 And it goes back thousands of years, really, Tucker.

00:54:31.680 So it's always felt like we're really one and the same.

00:54:35.120 Islam is very much an integral part of our culture as Christians here.

00:54:40.160 Yeah, we feel very comfortable.

00:54:40.940 As Christians here?

00:54:42.100 As Christians, absolutely.

00:54:43.400 So you went to school, a number of very prominent schools in the United States.

00:54:48.360 You spent a lot of time living in the U.S.

00:54:49.680 So you know that most Americans are going to be surprised to hear that.

00:54:55.040 Oh, of course.

00:54:55.660 I mean, you know, a lot of my American friends, when I first met them, they were surprised that, you know, I'm Christian from Jordan.

00:55:02.860 And I'm like, what do you mean?

00:55:05.620 I mean, this is where Christianity started, right?

00:55:08.060 This is, we are the ancient Christians.

00:55:10.580 Yes.

00:55:11.080 It's a bit upsetting for me.

00:55:12.380 Jesus was baptized right there.

00:55:14.180 Right here.

00:55:15.260 I mean, this is a very special place, the baptism site.

00:55:20.600 It's very close to our hearts as Christians, not just here, but all over the world.

00:55:25.160 And can I say a little bit something about this site?

00:55:30.360 Because we're here, Tucker.

00:55:31.800 Yeah.

00:55:32.140 So this baptism site, I mean, what most Christians around the world maybe sometimes forget is here we have the clearest manifestation in the Bible of the Holy Trinity.

00:55:44.500 Right here, Tucker, where you and I are today.

00:55:47.420 You know, if you remember from the Bible, the voice of God.

00:55:49.860 Yes.

00:55:50.160 And he said, you know, this is, you know, when Jesus was being baptized by St. John, this is my son of whom I am well pleased, I think.

00:55:57.460 Yes.

00:55:58.260 And then the son, right, the Holy Spirit in the shape, descends in the shape of a dove.

00:56:05.380 This happened here.

00:56:07.020 And Christ's official mission, right, started in Jordan.

00:56:12.400 So you can actually make the claim, this is not, you know, this is a biblical theological claim,

00:56:18.160 that the mission of Christianity, a salvation history started right here.

00:56:23.040 So, of course, there are Christians in Jordan.

00:56:25.360 And it's just a very special place to be here.

00:56:27.740 I hope you've had some time to...

00:56:29.800 I've had an amazing time.

00:56:30.760 I've been to this country before, and I've always felt comfortable here.

00:56:35.100 And if you say that, in the West, people are either incredulous or they accuse you of being a secret Muslim or jihadi or something, which I'm not at all.

00:56:46.580 But I'm really struck that you said Islam is an integral part of the culture for Christians here.

00:56:54.020 What does that mean?

00:56:55.400 Well, look, it's...

00:56:56.880 The faith traditions are so similar.

00:56:58.820 It's remarkable.

00:57:02.840 I mean, you know, if you look at the Quran, for example, the Quran is...

00:57:09.300 Jesus was mentioned 25-plus times in the Quran.

00:57:12.740 And he was mentioned under different words, different names.

00:57:16.480 So, Isa is what his name is in Arabic.

00:57:22.800 The Word of God.

00:57:25.160 That's actually from the Quran.

00:57:27.320 The Messiah.

00:57:28.500 Al-Masih.

00:57:29.920 That's also Ibn Maryam, son of Maryam.

00:57:33.540 The other thing that you might find interesting is also the Virgin Mary, right?

00:57:38.280 I mean, she was mentioned 30-plus times in the Quran.

00:57:42.980 She's revered, right?

00:57:44.460 Actually, she was the only woman whose name was actually mentioned in the Quran.

00:57:50.320 No other name of a woman has mentioned it.

00:57:52.460 I mean, there was...

00:57:53.260 Really?

00:57:54.180 Absolutely.

00:57:55.120 Maryam is the only name that's named by name in the Quran as a woman. 0.88

00:58:00.200 As the mother of Jesus.

00:58:01.260 As the mother of Jesus.

00:58:03.220 There is a whole chapter in the Quran just dedicated for the Virgin Mary.

00:58:09.580 So, you can see, and of course, the same prophets, many of the same prophets, whether it's Elijah or Moses or Abraham or, you know, they're in the Quran as they are in the, you know, the New Testament and the Old Testament.

00:58:26.680 So, the faith traditions are very similar.

00:58:29.840 So, that's why the Muslims are actually very accepting of the Christian faith traditions.

00:58:35.640 They are encompassing of the Christian faith traditions.

00:58:38.840 So, yeah, I mean...

00:58:39.960 And you're saying this as a Christian?

00:58:41.320 I'm saying this as a Christian here in Jordan.

00:58:44.280 Absolutely.

00:58:44.680 Look, I'm at a disadvantage because I have not read the Quran.

00:58:48.100 I'll just say that.

00:58:49.700 But we have been taught for 25 years, since 9-11, that Islam is inherently hostile to Christianity.

00:58:58.080 But you don't believe that.

00:58:59.220 I totally disagree with that.

00:59:01.460 I think hostility is, you know, is a human thing.

00:59:07.020 Yes.

00:59:07.520 You know, you find humans on all sides of the spectrum that are, you know, compassionate or hostile.

00:59:14.760 That's a common thing across humanity, across the world.

00:59:18.740 But to demonize one religion to say everyone in that religion is hostile is an atrocity, Tucker.

00:59:25.380 It's absolutely not true.

00:59:26.640 I agree with that.

00:59:28.020 Did you experience discrimination growing up here as a Christian?

00:59:30.940 Never.

00:59:31.960 I've never felt discriminated against as a Christian.

00:59:34.900 Of course, there's people that don't sometimes understand the Christian religious tradition.

00:59:41.360 And there are sometimes questions.

00:59:42.940 And there are sometimes theological, of course, differences.

00:59:45.600 And, you know, you can have a discussion about that and argue about that, right?

00:59:50.000 But discrimination in terms of, you know, I feel at a disadvantage to be a Christian here?

00:59:55.980 Absolutely not.

00:59:57.260 So your family, I think I understand this, is at the level of prominence that you're going to have to deal with the government.

01:00:04.400 Yes.

01:00:04.880 At a certain point.

01:00:05.460 Yeah.

01:00:05.920 Okay.

01:00:06.240 Of course.

01:00:06.960 This is a small country.

01:00:08.000 It's a monarchy.

01:00:09.400 You've never had any problems dealing with the government as a Christian?

01:00:12.180 No.

01:00:12.860 No, actually, that's a great question.

01:00:14.760 So Christians are very well represented here, as you can imagine.

01:00:20.240 They're really part of the social fabric of the economy and the political environment.

01:00:26.400 So Christians are represented, you know, in the Senate, in Parliament, in government, in the military, in the private sector, even though we are a minority, right?

01:00:37.360 But the representation is everywhere across the world.

01:00:40.720 Well, you're a tiny minority, right?

01:00:42.040 We are, like, probably 2%, 3% at this stage.

01:00:45.200 Which, I'm just guessing, but it seems like if you're 2% or 3% of the population, you seem disproportionately represented among the affluent.

01:00:56.240 Possibly.

01:00:56.800 I think maybe minorities everywhere around the world, that's the case.

01:00:59.860 Yes, it is.

01:01:00.500 Actually, that is true.

01:01:01.260 If you think about it, right?

01:01:04.300 But I don't know.

01:01:05.620 I've never measured that.

01:01:07.020 I don't know if there are statistics on that.

01:01:07.900 But that's never been a problem, I guess, because you do see minority groups around the world, as you said.

01:01:13.920 You know, the Indians in Uganda in the 70s, or name a group, but the minority group often is disproportionately successful, and then they are persecuted for that.

01:01:23.300 Right.

01:01:23.580 And that has not happened here.

01:01:24.800 No.

01:01:26.220 No, absolutely not.

01:01:27.400 And there's a reason, I think, it's why it is, I'll tell you, I mean, I was thinking about sort of why is Jordan a special sort of model for that, right?

01:01:38.800 Of coexistence, of interfaith harmony.

01:01:41.720 I think there's three things, Tucker.

01:01:44.200 And if these three things are there, you know, Christian minorities in the Holy Land, they will thrive.

01:01:52.200 Number one is we have constitutional rights as equal citizens.

01:01:55.740 It's in the Jordanian constitution.

01:01:59.780 You know, so Christians and Muslims here have the same rights, complete equality.

01:02:05.540 When it comes to even matters relating to Christian affairs, whether it's marriages and, you know, even some civil affairs, there are Christian courts that are different from the Sharia courts that there are for Muslims.

01:02:17.840 So there's, in that sense, there's, you know, this sort of coexistence.

01:02:21.500 But when it comes to, of course, civil and commercial and all of those kinds of laws, those apply to all of us equally here in Jordan.

01:02:28.580 So constitutional rights are protected.

01:02:31.120 That's number one.

01:02:32.580 So this is not, so Christianity is an official religion here.

01:02:35.700 Absolutely.

01:02:36.060 I mean, yeah, there's, in the constitution, there's freedom of worship, freedom of religion in the constitution.

01:02:42.520 So this is, so very importantly, if you want to protect Christian minorities or any minority in that regard, anywhere in the world, constitutional rights have to be established.

01:02:51.200 And they're established here.

01:02:52.000 They were established here from the very start, right?

01:02:54.960 You know, when the Jordanian tribes and the Hashemites agreed to form the constitution.

01:03:02.440 And they've been there since then.

01:03:04.420 So I would say that's the one, the first thing.

01:03:06.920 The second thing, which I really think is important, is stability.

01:03:11.440 Yeah.

01:03:12.000 Right.

01:03:12.900 And the moment you, you don't have stability, the first to suffer are the minorities. 1.00

01:03:19.040 Are the weak, of course.

01:03:19.900 Are the weak.

01:03:20.360 And, you know, stability is so important, economic stability, political stability, security, stability.

01:03:27.580 And that's why it's so sacred, actually, to ensure that there is stability in the region.

01:03:33.160 I would say the last thing is leadership.

01:03:37.820 You know, we're very fortunate here to have, you know, His Majesty King Abdullah and the Hashemite leadership.

01:03:43.280 I mean, truly, really tremendously fortunate because the Hashemites have always been about interfaith dialogue, discourse, meritocracy, compassion, mercy.

01:03:54.940 So I think when you have, you know, great leadership, stability, and constitutional rights, yeah, a Christian minority can thrive.

01:04:03.040 And that's what we have here.

01:04:04.000 It's, and my job is not to talk of Jordan, but I've always wondered, and all of your neighbors, I've spent time in all of your neighboring countries, always say the same thing.

01:04:15.520 How do you have this country with really no energy resources, it's not inherently rich.

01:04:20.460 Yeah.

01:04:20.740 How do you absorb all these refugees from the creation of Israel in 1948, I mean, enormous number, and then lose a huge part of its territory in 67, absorb more refugees, and then absorb still more refugees through the years, including from the civil war in Syria.

01:04:38.540 And now, apparently, are being pushed to absorb still more refugees from Gaza.

01:04:43.420 Yeah.

01:04:44.360 I don't think any country's ever been under this kind of pressure.

01:04:47.060 This is for the outsider perspective anyway.

01:04:48.620 How do you stay stable in the middle of all of that?

01:04:51.840 That's a great question.

01:04:53.040 I honestly, Tucker, I ask myself that all the time.

01:04:57.320 And I think, you know, part of the answer is just the culture.

01:05:01.700 The culture here, it's a very collectivist culture.

01:05:04.400 It's a very tribal culture.

01:05:07.180 You know, for example, the latest immigration of Syrian refugees, we had, I think, up to 1.5 million Syrian refugees during the Arab Spring.

01:05:17.640 This is a small country, isn't it?

01:05:19.020 Yeah.

01:05:19.300 Yeah, that's on a proactive basis.

01:05:20.940 It's like 40 million people moving into the U.S. overnight, right?

01:05:25.440 And that's the scale of the, I mean, can you imagine 40 million people, all of Canada moving into the U.S., looking for jobs, right?

01:05:31.760 I'm laughing, but, and I should just say for people to follow this because it's a boutique question.

01:05:38.140 There's a lot going on in the world, but this is interesting to me.

01:05:40.980 This is all because of your geographic location.

01:05:43.520 It's like you didn't ask for this.

01:05:44.720 You just happen to be surrounded by these larger powers that decide they can use your country as like a place to store the products of their wars.

01:05:52.380 Yeah, I mean, it's because it's stable, so we, you know, people say, you know, just move it to Jordan and let them deal with it.

01:05:59.980 And to be honest, it's been difficult because the host community, the Jordanians, I mean, they've had to share resources with the refugees.

01:06:07.960 They've had to share jobs, you know.

01:06:10.500 We have very limited resources, as you said, Tucker, be they financial, water resources, energy resources, you know.

01:06:17.480 So, I've sidetracked my own question.

01:06:19.560 So, the original question was, how do you absorb more refugees over the past 80 years than you have people, a lot more, and not fall apart? 1.00

01:06:32.700 Look, a lot of it is, again, Hashemite leadership. 0.97

01:06:38.840 It's taking care of the refugees, using our limited resources to support them. 1.00

01:06:43.360 So, my understanding is we, especially with the last sort of Syrian refugees, we had a lot of support from the international community in the beginning.

01:06:52.180 But over time, you know, there is donor fatigue over time.

01:06:56.060 Yeah.

01:06:56.400 You know, the news moves on.

01:06:59.060 Right.

01:06:59.940 And then the host community is stuck with the problem.

01:07:03.580 And then we have to depend on our own resources.

01:07:05.700 And obviously, a lot of it is just, honestly, us.

01:07:09.060 It's local tax revenue, government support.

01:07:12.320 But, of course, we do get some support still from international donors, from the U.S. government, from other places around the world.

01:07:19.500 So, we're grateful for that.

01:07:21.340 But, yeah, it's tempting to let the host community deal with this problem because sort of the news cycle has moved on to something else.

01:07:29.880 And that's a problem.

01:07:30.560 So, it's a question I'm interested in because from the American perspective, our country feels swamped with refugees. 1.00

01:07:38.780 Yeah.

01:07:39.000 But no country, maybe in history, has been as swamped by refugees as yours. 1.00

01:07:43.620 So, it's just interesting to see how you've handled it.

01:07:45.720 Yeah.

01:07:45.880 No, I mean, I think people feel very much like, you know, the refugees coming in here.

01:07:52.300 There's this moral sort of, you know, understanding that we have to take care of our own.

01:08:00.020 And just to give you a story, maybe from Jordan's history, if you want to go back even to the time of the earliest Christians, right?

01:08:07.980 Because we're the ancient Christians, right?

01:08:09.880 So, we remember these stories.

01:08:10.940 One of the Christian holy sites here in Jordan is called Pella.

01:08:14.720 I don't know if you know about Pella.

01:08:16.620 So, that was a city in the old Roman Decapolis, right?

01:08:19.760 The ten cities that are referred to in the New Testament.

01:08:24.500 They're referred to in the New Testament, exactly.

01:08:26.780 So, Pella is in Jordan.

01:08:28.220 It's a beautiful site.

01:08:29.560 It's well preserved.

01:08:31.380 That was the site of the first Christian refugees coming out of Jerusalem.

01:08:38.360 You know, before Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD by General Titus.

01:08:43.120 Yes.

01:08:43.520 You know, all of the Christians moved to Pella, actually.

01:08:46.740 It's technically, arguably, right, according to archaeology, the first Christian refugee haven. 0.73

01:08:53.400 And that's in Jordan.

01:08:54.260 And I think this has been our history.

01:08:57.360 I did not know that.

01:08:58.420 Yeah.

01:08:58.700 We're the land of refugees.

01:09:00.500 We are very much the land of refugees.

01:09:04.340 And, yeah, that's a nice story.

01:09:06.140 And it's the same with Iraq. 0.59

01:09:07.940 And I think when we talk about, you know, the Iraqi refugees as well, a while back, Muslim and Christian moved here.

01:09:14.880 And going back to sort of the point on stability, Tucker.

01:09:20.860 So, you know, when you have, there was U.S. intervention, as you recall, in Iraq.

01:09:26.960 I do recall that, yes.

01:09:29.160 I heard about that.

01:09:31.160 At the time of Saddam Hussein.

01:09:32.980 And then the thing is, whenever you lose, whenever sort of there is a vacuum, that vacuum is always filled.

01:09:39.580 And sometimes it's filled with, you know, bad elements.

01:09:42.960 So, Al-Qaeda filled that vacuum in Iraq after 2003.

01:09:47.620 And then you had, which then, of course, later became ISIS, right, down the line.

01:09:51.620 And so, all of a sudden, you had Muslim and Christians who were targeted.

01:09:57.140 A lot of them came into Jordan.

01:10:00.000 And, you know, I know a priest.

01:10:04.380 He specializes in really taking care of the, especially both Muslim and Christian refugees, by the way.

01:10:10.740 There is no selectivity there.

01:10:11.980 They are here temporarily.

01:10:16.040 They see themselves as being here temporarily until they can immigrate to other parts of the world. 0.93

01:10:21.340 So, they receive financial assistance, schooling.

01:10:25.100 A lot of it is provided either by the state or even fundraised by the churches, the local churches,

01:10:31.160 until they are able to immigrate to other parts of the world where there is more economic prosperity and stability and jobs.

01:10:37.940 So, you're a Christian.

01:10:39.020 A Christian, you are 25 miles away from the most famous and important church in Christendom. 1.00

01:10:45.460 And you've been one time in 50 years?

01:10:47.760 Yeah, I need, I mean, obviously, it's, first of all, I can't just go there.

01:10:52.060 I need a visa.

01:10:53.420 As a Jordanian, it's something that you have to apply for.

01:10:57.760 And, um...

01:10:58.760 How hard is it to get?

01:11:01.280 Yeah, it's a process.

01:11:02.620 I mean, you have to apply.

01:11:03.800 It's, I can't recall how difficult it was to get the visa at the time.

01:11:07.700 But also, you know, there's some security considerations.

01:11:11.920 What does that mean?

01:11:13.240 I mean, I, you know, you see what's happening there now.

01:11:18.040 How comfortable would Christians be, or non-Christians even, visiting the holy sites now? 0.71

01:11:24.860 I'm totally confused.

01:11:26.300 Those holy sites don't belong to the state of Israel, which is a political entity of very recent creation.

01:11:30.880 Those holy sites are the center of our religion.

01:11:34.640 They long predate by thousands of years the creation of the state of Israel.

01:11:39.720 So why wouldn't Christians, any Christian, have a right to visit his own church?

01:11:44.800 Yeah, I agree.

01:11:45.980 That's my perspective as the person who's paying for all this, so...

01:11:48.680 I agree with you.

01:11:49.120 I think there's an angle I'd like to focus on here.

01:11:52.960 So, you know, the Hashemites are very much the custodians of the Christian and the Muslim sites in Jerusalem.

01:12:02.820 I think maybe that, if you allow me, Tucker, I think that's something that people don't realize is that

01:12:08.460 a lot of the restoration work that happens there is very much funded personally by the king.

01:12:15.440 I mean, the tomb of Jesus Christ in the Holy Sepulchre was restored by personal donations from King Abdullah.

01:12:24.180 And it says something...

01:12:25.100 Wait, what?

01:12:25.920 Absolutely, yeah.

01:12:26.700 The tomb of Jesus was restored by the Muslim king of Jordan? 0.51

01:12:30.600 Yeah, I mean, the Muslim king of Jordan...

01:12:32.420 It's kind of a surprise ending to the story, I have to say.

01:12:34.600 I don't think...

01:12:35.860 He's a direct descendant of the Prophet Muhammad, right?

01:12:39.720 And he's the one restoring the tomb of Jesus Christ.

01:12:43.580 And I think that's this interfaith story.

01:12:45.940 That's true?

01:12:47.280 It is true.

01:12:49.820 There's another story on the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.

01:12:52.180 I think it's...

01:12:53.960 I mean, it shows you just how old these traditions are in the region

01:12:56.980 and how welcoming it used to be to people from all... across all faiths,

01:13:01.460 be they Jewish or Christian or Muslim, right?

01:13:04.960 In the past.

01:13:07.020 So, since...

01:13:08.980 I think a thousand years ago, since Salahuddin or Saladin, right?

01:13:13.180 Yeah.

01:13:14.360 The keys to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, okay,

01:13:18.980 did not belong to any of the Christian denominations

01:13:21.080 because they couldn't agree amongst themselves, right?

01:13:24.080 The Armenian, the Orthodox, the Catholic, etc.

01:13:25.680 Ethiopian, yeah.

01:13:26.640 Ethiopian, like who's going to have the key to the Church, right? 0.99

01:13:30.300 And actually, that key was handed to, at the time, Salahuddin.

01:13:33.880 And even today, those keys are handed to a Muslim family. 1.00

01:13:37.700 It's, I think, the Nsebe family of Jerusalem.

01:13:40.740 They opened the church in the morning, you know,

01:13:43.420 and they closed the church at night.

01:13:45.600 So that's the kind of sort of...

01:13:46.880 I mean, these are the stories we grew up with

01:13:49.340 as Christians in the region, as Muslims in the region,

01:13:52.880 even as Arab Jews, right, from the region.

01:13:55.520 This is sort of the faith and the common faith

01:13:58.860 and cultural tradition we grew up with here.

01:14:00.720 So a lot of the stuff that we see today is very new.

01:14:06.580 These are lines drawn in the sand by colonial powers

01:14:10.320 that really sort of destroyed that social cohesion

01:14:16.040 and the social fabric that existed here.

01:14:20.400 My complete outsider perspective at the time

01:14:24.460 when the official capital of the state of Israel

01:14:27.020 moved from Tel Aviv, a city of recent creation,

01:14:29.740 to Jerusalem, a city that, as noted,

01:14:33.380 long predates the state of Israel,

01:14:35.960 was that Jerusalem changed

01:14:39.740 from an international holy site

01:14:42.000 to a kind of government garrison run by a city-state,

01:14:46.160 run by a nation-state.

01:14:48.460 And that's probably not good for the Christians. 0.94

01:14:51.940 Do you think it's fair?

01:14:53.220 Yeah, I think Jerusalem belongs to all people, right?

01:14:56.120 It certainly doesn't belong to Bibi. 0.61

01:14:57.740 It's not his.

01:14:58.620 He didn't make it.

01:15:00.180 None of those buildings was built by the government of Israel.

01:15:03.340 Sorry.

01:15:05.000 So, but now it kind of feels like it belongs to Bibi.

01:15:09.960 Again, this is my perspective from thousands of miles away, but...

01:15:13.620 Yeah, I mean, this is a city that belongs to all people around the world.

01:15:19.960 This is a holy city,

01:15:21.000 especially people of the Abrahamic religions, as we say, right?

01:15:24.320 I mean, another story on that is,

01:15:27.580 I mean, my grandfather,

01:15:28.460 he was a merchant from Salt.

01:15:30.340 He started...

01:15:32.340 Where is that?

01:15:33.560 It's actually sort of used to be the old capital here in Jordan.

01:15:37.980 It's very close to here.

01:15:41.120 Very close to Amman as well.

01:15:43.140 It's an old city as well, Ottoman city, but also Roman city.

01:15:47.640 Originally, the world is saltus, anyway, Roman city.

01:15:50.040 But he used to...

01:15:53.880 He started the trade between salt and Jerusalem when he was 13 years old.

01:15:58.180 At the time, it was, again, Ottoman Empire,

01:15:59.920 so you could move around, right?

01:16:02.640 Damascus and Beirut and Jerusalem,

01:16:04.880 and that's what the merchants used to do.

01:16:07.060 I remember, and he said...

01:16:08.380 And I asked him, what was it like?

01:16:09.600 And the first merchant he met in Jerusalem,

01:16:12.560 the first products he acquired and sold in Salt was in Jerusalem.

01:16:17.200 I'm like, what was it like when you visited there?

01:16:20.480 This is in the 30s, the 1930s or late 20s, I'm guessing.

01:16:25.220 He said, look, it's amazing.

01:16:27.460 I'm like, what do you mean?

01:16:28.120 I'm like, well, you know,

01:16:29.660 there were the Muslims and the Jews and the Christians together

01:16:33.940 in the streets playing backgammon, you know.

01:16:38.380 Just one community, and you can't tell the difference.

01:16:42.680 You can't tell the difference.

01:16:45.060 And, yeah, that's what they're all Arabs. 0.99

01:16:48.820 Most of them were Arabs at the time, right?

01:16:51.420 So, that's sort of the Jerusalem I hear about.

01:16:57.400 That's the Jerusalem I remember. 0.87

01:16:59.520 That's the Jerusalem that I think all of us long for 0.83

01:17:02.580 is, you know, a united Jerusalem,

01:17:05.160 one that's united for all faiths,

01:17:07.020 and, you know, the Jews, the Christians, and the Muslims.

01:17:10.700 And I think, I hope, I'm grateful

01:17:12.580 that we will get there one day, Tucker.

01:17:17.060 It's just interesting,

01:17:18.800 and you know this because you spend so much time

01:17:20.900 in the United States,

01:17:21.680 that I don't think it would enter the minds

01:17:24.720 of most Americans that a Christian

01:17:26.640 could be better treated here in Jordan than in Israel.

01:17:29.540 I mean, I see the stories of how Christians

01:17:34.880 are suffering in Israel,

01:17:35.960 especially the Palestinian Christians.

01:17:39.100 I haven't had the unfortunate experience

01:17:42.320 of going through that suffering,

01:17:44.340 but, yeah, I don't think it's just the Christians.

01:17:47.620 I think, you know, there's,

01:17:51.080 the occupation is an equal opportunity.

01:17:54.080 Oh, for sure.

01:17:55.140 I don't think it's primarily the Christians.

01:17:57.180 Right.

01:17:57.420 But what makes it galling from an American perspective,

01:18:00.980 I am American,

01:18:01.620 I see everything through the lens of the United States

01:18:03.720 and its own interests,

01:18:05.040 is that America is paying for this.

01:18:07.900 Yeah.

01:18:08.580 And America is a majority Christian country.

01:18:11.460 So, I mean, we can all have different views

01:18:13.660 about what our foreign policy ought to be,

01:18:15.260 but I don't think many Americans

01:18:17.280 are in favor of a foreign policy

01:18:18.600 that oppresses their fellow Christians.

01:18:22.280 I hope not.

01:18:28.160 I hope not.

01:18:28.960 But you see the point.

01:18:30.480 Yeah, absolutely.

01:18:31.560 Absolutely.

01:18:32.200 I think, I mean, my advice would be

01:18:35.080 to the Christians that really care in the U.S. 0.97

01:18:38.260 is talk to us.

01:18:40.460 Talk to the ancient Christians.

01:18:41.940 You know, we've been here since Christ.

01:18:43.860 We're here.

01:18:44.980 Don't just listen to the D.C. experts, you know.

01:18:48.620 So you don't, they don't reach out to you?

01:18:51.520 No, in fact, this,

01:18:52.780 I think what I'm sharing with you today

01:18:54.780 is something that's novel, right?

01:18:58.540 This is not a narrative, I don't think,

01:19:00.760 I mean, that you hear, right,

01:19:02.580 in the U.S. a lot.

01:19:04.840 Ever.

01:19:06.040 I feel shame listening to you,

01:19:07.640 and I rarely feel shame,

01:19:08.800 but I do feel shame listening to you

01:19:10.420 that I didn't know more about this

01:19:12.360 because I am a Christian,

01:19:13.700 and I think we have an obligation

01:19:16.280 to know what our tax dollars do

01:19:18.540 to our fellow Christians,

01:19:19.600 and I just haven't spent enough time

01:19:21.860 thinking about it,

01:19:22.860 and I think it's very odd

01:19:23.840 that Christians in Jordan

01:19:27.120 and in Israel aren't receiving

01:19:29.100 help from Christians in the West.

01:19:33.040 Do you think that?

01:19:33.940 I do, I do.

01:19:35.600 I think it's odd,

01:19:36.580 and going back to sort of why

01:19:38.180 the Jordanian sort of experience is unique,

01:19:40.920 remember those three things,

01:19:42.040 stability is one of them.

01:19:43.880 If the Christians in the U.S. 1.00

01:19:45.920 and in the West, right,

01:19:47.520 they really cared about sort of

01:19:49.160 the minority Christian communities

01:19:50.640 here in the Holy Land.

01:19:51.620 So if they really do,

01:19:52.500 and if they don't,

01:19:53.840 you know,

01:19:54.700 they have to really think about

01:19:55.860 why they don't.

01:19:56.720 Oh, I agree.

01:19:57.320 And I assume most of them do, right?

01:20:00.920 And if they do,

01:20:01.900 they really have to think about stability.

01:20:05.000 And this is important to mention, Tucker,

01:20:07.720 but possibly the most destabilizing thing

01:20:11.100 happening in the region, right,

01:20:13.340 is the situation in Israel-Palestine.

01:20:16.100 Without a just resolution,

01:20:18.820 a just resolution

01:20:19.940 for the situation of the Palestinians there,

01:20:23.120 it's just,

01:20:25.380 it's just, you know,

01:20:26.440 it's going to be even more destabilizing

01:20:28.240 for communities in Palestine,

01:20:30.300 in Jordan, you know,

01:20:31.900 across the region.

01:20:33.020 Well, how about the United States?

01:20:34.440 I mean, 9-11,

01:20:38.100 if you believe the 9-11 report,

01:20:41.400 was committed by people

01:20:42.560 who are mad about American

01:20:44.240 foreign policy decisions

01:20:46.060 in this region, right here.

01:20:48.980 So, you know,

01:20:50.220 you fund mass murder in Gaza, 0.91

01:20:52.120 and there's no blowback to you,

01:20:54.560 I think there's probably going to be,

01:20:55.980 wouldn't you think?

01:20:57.780 Yeah, I mean, look,

01:20:58.920 there's, yeah,

01:21:00.740 U.S. intervention in the region,

01:21:02.280 there's really positive stuff,

01:21:04.120 and there's negative stuff, right?

01:21:06.340 It's positive when it's economic,

01:21:08.300 and it's about...

01:21:09.120 Jordanians are so diplomatic.

01:21:11.340 I love that.

01:21:12.060 Well, it really is.

01:21:13.040 It's truthful.

01:21:14.060 I really feel that.

01:21:15.220 Like, you look at, for example,

01:21:16.800 USAID programs in Jordan, right?

01:21:18.720 Of course.

01:21:19.260 They were so, you know,

01:21:20.260 with the water infrastructure

01:21:21.340 that they helped us develop here

01:21:22.840 with the education reform,

01:21:24.460 you know, all that stuff.

01:21:25.740 You know, job creation,

01:21:27.000 that works, right?

01:21:28.560 You know, our defense cooperation,

01:21:30.840 that works, right?

01:21:32.100 But when you look at military intervention,

01:21:35.140 we pay the price,

01:21:36.100 look at all the refugees, right, 1.00

01:21:37.820 that come into the country,

01:21:39.080 and it has an economic cost,

01:21:40.520 and a social cost,

01:21:41.700 and a security cost,

01:21:43.140 and a political cost.

01:21:44.680 So, I'm hoping that,

01:21:48.460 you know, maybe President Trump,

01:21:49.860 I know he called the Department of Defense

01:21:53.200 the Department of War.

01:21:55.280 I really hope President Trump,

01:21:56.820 I know he cares about peace.

01:21:58.740 I really hope he renames it

01:22:00.300 the Department of Peace and Prosperity,

01:22:02.140 because if you want to have

01:22:04.440 real protection of Christian communities here,

01:22:07.320 you have to invest in stability,

01:22:08.720 intervene peacefully,

01:22:10.340 you know, economically, FDI.

01:22:13.600 It's great for the U.S.

01:22:14.960 It's also great for the region.

01:22:17.580 What is likely to happen in Gaza next?

01:22:21.780 What happens to all the people in Gaza? 1.00

01:22:25.680 I mean, it's the genocide, right?

01:22:28.000 Yeah.

01:22:29.700 And it's,

01:22:32.160 I wish I knew, Tucker.

01:22:34.860 Well, there are all these redevelopment plans,

01:22:37.260 and obviously I'm always hoping for,

01:22:39.660 order and tidiness and prosperity.

01:22:41.980 I mean, I think those are all godly things.

01:22:43.480 There's nothing, those are good.

01:22:45.540 But you have,

01:22:47.000 I don't know,

01:22:47.720 close to 2 million people who are there,

01:22:50.300 and they're in the way,

01:22:52.160 and clearly there's going to be an effort to,

01:22:54.560 I don't know,

01:22:55.060 I don't know what,

01:22:55.920 like what happens to those people?

01:22:59.380 And clearly, I think,

01:23:00.860 that's my personal perspective.

01:23:02.500 I'm not a politician,

01:23:03.980 you know, I'm a businessman,

01:23:05.020 so I think, you know,

01:23:06.060 pragmatically and morally about things, right?

01:23:08.300 But they have to stay.

01:23:10.520 We have to rebuild their homes,

01:23:12.820 and, you know,

01:23:14.360 their livelihoods,

01:23:15.200 their communities.

01:23:17.040 That's, I think,

01:23:18.180 the only solution, Tucker.

01:23:20.120 I mean,

01:23:20.860 I don't see anyone

01:23:21.980 that can accept,

01:23:24.520 morally,

01:23:25.660 even politically,

01:23:26.960 even just on a humanitarian basis, right?

01:23:29.920 A forced expulsion,

01:23:31.260 right?

01:23:32.240 of people from Gaza,

01:23:33.900 from their native homeland.

01:23:34.740 Of millions of people?

01:23:35.760 Of millions of people.

01:23:37.120 That hasn't happened,

01:23:38.120 you know,

01:23:39.780 since the Second World War,

01:23:41.580 so you hope it wouldn't happen now.

01:23:43.580 But do you think that might happen?

01:23:46.700 I'm not qualified,

01:23:48.260 I think,

01:23:48.620 to answer that question.

01:23:50.500 All I can tell you is,

01:23:51.560 if it does happen on our watch,

01:23:53.720 all of us are accountable for it.

01:23:56.060 I agree.

01:23:57.360 Yeah,

01:23:58.000 I agree completely.

01:24:00.180 Why did you,

01:24:01.800 I mean,

01:24:02.420 I don't want to say

01:24:03.180 the fancy schools that you went to,

01:24:05.000 but you went to prominent schools

01:24:06.400 in the United States,

01:24:07.840 and you could have stayed.

01:24:11.200 Yeah.

01:24:11.820 And I'm sure all your classmates

01:24:13.340 are prosperous at this point.

01:24:15.640 Yeah.

01:24:16.080 Yeah, from business school.

01:24:17.260 But why did you come back?

01:24:19.220 I've always wanted to come back.

01:24:21.100 U.S. was, for me,

01:24:22.580 an amazing experience

01:24:23.860 studying in the U.S.

01:24:25.380 at the time.

01:24:26.080 I was there mainly in the 90s, right?

01:24:27.660 Yeah.

01:24:29.680 And, you know,

01:24:31.440 I owe a lot to my education in the U.S.

01:24:35.480 It was a very meaningful experience.

01:24:37.080 There was,

01:24:38.080 it felt like a lot of,

01:24:39.720 at the time,

01:24:40.640 this freedom of thought

01:24:41.780 and expression

01:24:42.860 and then ultimately conscience.

01:24:44.660 Yes.

01:24:45.980 That you can have there.

01:24:47.020 Exactly.

01:24:48.240 And that's very liberating.

01:24:50.080 Well, the point of freedom of speech

01:24:51.220 is freedom of conscience.

01:24:52.660 Yeah.

01:24:52.800 I get to believe what I,

01:24:54.040 I get to speak my values out loud, right?

01:24:56.280 Exactly.

01:24:56.860 And I felt that in the U.S.

01:24:58.820 when I was there.

01:24:59.340 That was a very,

01:25:00.100 very powerful lesson.

01:25:02.400 But the intention was never

01:25:04.060 to stay there.

01:25:05.480 This is a very collectivist,

01:25:06.940 again, society.

01:25:08.500 Family here is very important.

01:25:10.480 You know,

01:25:10.660 community here is very important.

01:25:12.640 And to want to be part of that

01:25:14.520 and to give back to that

01:25:15.700 and to support that

01:25:17.500 and to have my family

01:25:18.900 and my children grow up

01:25:20.400 in that sort of collectivist environment

01:25:22.380 is really more important

01:25:24.260 than money or anything else,

01:25:25.740 Tucker, honestly.

01:25:26.900 And I,

01:25:27.320 that's how I'm programmed.

01:25:30.320 I'm fortunate I can say that

01:25:31.900 because I could also afford

01:25:33.280 to come back.

01:25:35.100 You know,

01:25:35.440 I was,

01:25:36.360 my father was a businessman,

01:25:38.760 my grandfather was a businessman,

01:25:40.160 so I could afford to come here

01:25:42.000 and,

01:25:42.380 you know,

01:25:43.080 to explore

01:25:44.080 sort of my career journey.

01:25:47.060 So,

01:25:47.700 some people can't,

01:25:48.720 so they optimize working

01:25:49.900 in other parts of the world.

01:25:51.520 So,

01:25:51.620 I have to be honest about that.

01:25:53.860 But no regrets.

01:25:55.000 I love it here.

01:25:55.980 Did you have family

01:25:56.940 on the other side of the river

01:25:57.940 in 48 or 67?

01:26:00.200 No.

01:26:01.320 Really?

01:26:02.160 We're very much Jordanian.

01:26:04.360 Always?

01:26:05.100 Yeah.

01:26:05.740 My,

01:26:06.020 my family is,

01:26:07.320 yeah.

01:26:08.820 How,

01:26:09.420 how many refugees

01:26:10.840 did you get in 48?

01:26:12.180 Do you know?

01:26:13.860 Oh,

01:26:14.320 wow.

01:26:14.680 I,

01:26:15.100 I'm not,

01:26:15.620 I'm not on top of the figures,

01:26:16.860 but I think there were

01:26:17.760 a total of,

01:26:18.900 at the time,

01:26:19.720 I'm not sure if they all

01:26:20.580 came to Jordan,

01:26:21.240 but six,

01:26:21.700 700,000 total refugees

01:26:23.580 at the time.

01:26:24.840 Some of them went into Palestine

01:26:26.180 and Syria

01:26:26.820 and a lot of them

01:26:28.020 came into Jordan.

01:26:30.220 So,

01:26:30.660 that's the total number

01:26:32.560 if I recall,

01:26:33.340 if my memory serves me correctly.

01:26:35.240 I'm not sure what proportion.

01:26:36.540 I think the majority

01:26:37.300 came into Jordan.

01:26:40.820 My last question is,

01:26:41.920 where do you think

01:26:42.360 this is all going?

01:26:43.520 It seems like things

01:26:44.320 are accelerating quickly.

01:26:45.600 People are getting more radical.

01:26:47.700 The maps are being redrawn.

01:26:51.400 Huge populations

01:26:52.340 are being moved around.

01:26:53.620 I mean,

01:26:53.800 what,

01:26:54.160 what are we looking at here?

01:26:56.680 Um,

01:26:58.080 I,

01:26:58.680 look,

01:26:59.180 I,

01:26:59.480 I'm scared

01:27:01.080 for what's coming.

01:27:01.920 It feels like a big thing.

01:27:03.080 I guess that's what I was saying.

01:27:03.920 I am scared

01:27:04.580 for what's coming.

01:27:05.680 It,

01:27:05.960 there's a lot

01:27:06.900 of lack of clarity.

01:27:09.500 And it feels like

01:27:10.740 decisions

01:27:11.320 are being made

01:27:12.500 in,

01:27:13.040 you know,

01:27:14.660 backroom doors,

01:27:16.040 um,

01:27:17.600 by who knows who.

01:27:19.540 So there's,

01:27:20.400 honestly,

01:27:20.820 I wish I,

01:27:21.440 I wish I could answer that.

01:27:22.340 and that's the thing

01:27:23.300 is if you want

01:27:23.920 to create instability,

01:27:25.020 you create insecurity

01:27:26.080 because nobody knows,

01:27:28.060 you know,

01:27:29.160 outcomes.

01:27:31.280 Um,

01:27:31.700 I feel,

01:27:32.740 uh,

01:27:33.040 when it comes to Jordan,

01:27:34.280 you know,

01:27:34.520 we have

01:27:35.060 a strong leadership here.

01:27:37.720 We have strong,

01:27:38.680 uh,

01:27:39.040 security and defense here.

01:27:40.940 We have a wise people here.

01:27:42.860 I mean,

01:27:43.300 you've seen,

01:27:43.680 this is one of the most resilient countries,

01:27:45.480 I think,

01:27:45.800 in the world.

01:27:46.440 I mean,

01:27:46.660 who,

01:27:46.940 who can come up

01:27:47.740 and deal with

01:27:48.640 the types of things

01:27:49.920 that we've had to dealt with

01:27:51.000 over the past couple of decades.

01:27:53.340 So I think,

01:27:54.180 you know,

01:27:54.560 we'll find a way through it.

01:27:57.280 But,

01:27:58.040 my concern is also

01:27:59.460 for the wider region,

01:28:00.520 right?

01:28:00.780 At what cost?

01:28:02.320 And my only concern,

01:28:03.620 uh,

01:28:03.960 Tucker,

01:28:04.520 I mean,

01:28:05.680 when you have

01:28:06.580 U.S. military,

01:28:07.600 uh,

01:28:08.080 intervention

01:28:08.520 or any kind of military intervention,

01:28:10.520 if there is a vacuum,

01:28:13.660 it needs to be filled.

01:28:15.220 And who's going to fill that vacuum,

01:28:17.120 right?

01:28:17.300 And what comes later?

01:28:18.820 What comes later

01:28:19.600 might be even worse than,

01:28:21.200 right?

01:28:21.540 Well,

01:28:21.660 I think we kind of know

01:28:22.580 because we've had 1948,

01:28:25.580 who got hurt?

01:28:27.440 Well,

01:28:28.080 the Christians got hurt.

01:28:29.140 A lot of Muslims got hurt too,

01:28:30.260 but the Christians being a minority got hurt.

01:28:32.440 Then you have Israel inspiring,

01:28:35.100 pushing for the Iraq war.

01:28:37.360 Christians population in the country 0.94

01:28:38.560 just basically evaporates.

01:28:40.360 Then you have Israel pushing 0.94

01:28:41.740 for the overthrow of Assad in Syria.

01:28:44.460 Minority religious people get hurt. 1.00

01:28:46.160 Christians,

01:28:46.940 not just Alawites,

01:28:48.220 but lots of them,

01:28:49.100 but they get crushed.

01:28:51.020 Lebanon,

01:28:52.000 Right.

01:28:52.700 Bombed by Israel for 40 years. 0.94

01:28:54.560 Right.

01:28:55.400 Christian population diminishes.

01:28:57.620 So,

01:28:58.320 like,

01:28:59.020 I,

01:28:59.260 I see a theme here.

01:29:01.420 Do you?

01:29:02.780 Yeah,

01:29:03.300 there's clearly a theme.

01:29:04.260 Yeah.

01:29:05.000 Yeah.

01:29:05.760 And it's,

01:29:06.300 it's a,

01:29:06.820 it's an anti-Christian theme.

01:29:09.280 I think it is.

01:29:10.480 I,

01:29:10.760 I think it is because

01:29:11.920 what it means to be Christian

01:29:13.400 is if you really think about it,

01:29:16.100 you know,

01:29:16.260 the most radical thing

01:29:17.440 that Jesus taught us

01:29:18.580 is love.

01:29:19.580 Yes.

01:29:19.880 and

01:29:21.220 if something does not

01:29:24.020 stem out of love,

01:29:25.160 right,

01:29:25.660 is it really Christian?

01:29:27.020 No.

01:29:27.600 Yeah.

01:29:28.860 And a lot of what's happening

01:29:30.420 is the furthest thing away

01:29:33.160 imaginable from love

01:29:34.520 that I can imagine

01:29:35.560 at this stage,

01:29:36.260 Tucker.

01:29:36.620 So,

01:29:37.160 yeah,

01:29:37.360 it doesn't feel very Christian to me.

01:29:39.980 Good luck.

01:29:41.080 Thanks.

01:29:41.660 Thank you.

01:29:42.240 Thank you.

The Tucker Carlson Show - February 05, 2026

The Shocking Reality of the Treatment of Christians in the Holy Land by the US-Funded Israeli Government

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