The Tucker Carlson Show - Tucker Carlson and Darryl Cooper on the True History of Jeffrey Epstein and Ongoing Cover-Up

00:00:00.000 Daryl Cooper, ladies and gentlemen. It feels so naughty and forbidden to be sitting here with you.

00:00:04.460 It's like getting caught in a strip bar. Just kidding. I'm so grateful that you came.

00:00:09.540 Not everyone feels that way. I just want to dispense with the political aspect of this by

00:00:14.500 reading a verbatim. I don't have the tape for some reason, but this was my old friend Mark Levin

00:00:19.640 on his show today. And this is the transcript that I got. Levin, and it actually says in

00:00:25.420 parentheses, screaming like an old woman. I don't know if that was actually on Fox or not, but I'm

00:00:29.740 quoting. Why are these insane, knuckleheaded, know-nothings, these propagandists, these

00:00:34.280 demagogues giving platforms? Someone gave us a platform. Amazing. By God, I'm going to

00:00:40.540 take this crap on for as long as I live because it's destroying our youth and destroying their

00:00:45.600 minds. I'm glad he's standing up. Somebody has to. That guy sounds like a monster. Who's

00:00:50.500 he talking about? You and me.

00:00:59.740 So I think it'd be really fun to spend maybe three hours, you know, being mean to

00:01:18.420 Mark Levin. I've already done that. I want to create a documentary record. You've already

00:01:23.220 done this with your podcast, but for people who haven't seen it, I want to create a documentary

00:01:26.280 record here of everything that we know or think we know without too much speculation. Just stick

00:01:32.540 to the facts about Jeffrey Epstein, the basic questions of Jeffrey Epstein. I feel like I know

00:01:37.580 a lot about this topic. You know much more than I know. So without further preamble and just being

00:01:44.020 clear, I'm not here to make political points about this or comment on the unfolding drama around

00:01:49.520 it, which is quite remarkable. I don't really understand it. So people tuning in to learn what is

00:01:55.960 happening at the White House or in the Congress about this. I can't really say at this point,

00:02:00.060 there'll be time for that. But for right now, I'd really just like to learn about Jeffrey Epstein.

00:02:04.900 So with that, who was Jeffrey Epstein?

00:02:09.300 Well, Jeffrey Epstein just started out as a normal guy, born in Coney Island in the 1950s.

00:02:15.420 First record we really have of him when he appears for us is in 1974 when he's hired to teach

00:02:21.060 mathematics at the Dalton School, which is an elite private school in New York City.

00:02:24.760 Now, I'm not familiar with New York City K-12 education system, but I'm told it's a very elite

00:02:32.300 place that can have their pick of mathematics teachers from all over the world if they want it.

00:02:38.000 And so they hire a guy who's 20 years old, who dropped out of college after two years at Cooper

00:02:42.800 Union with no teaching experience to teach math at this school.

00:02:48.560 At the age of 20?

00:02:49.720 At the age of 20, basically on the strength of a meeting with the headmaster of the school at the

00:02:54.400 time, a guy by the name of Donald Barr.

00:02:58.040 Who was Donald Barr?

00:02:59.140 Yeah, so that name might sound familiar. Donald Barr is a very interesting character, not least

00:03:03.160 because his son, Bill Barr, was the attorney general who had Jeffrey Epstein arrested and

00:03:08.460 oversaw his death in the federal jail that he was in.

00:03:11.980 Can I just ask you, I've already said I wouldn't interject, but I'm asking you to pause already.

00:03:14.560 What are the statistical, the actual odds of that? The attorney general of the United States

00:03:22.660 who arrested Jeffrey Epstein, oversaw his death, declared his death as suicide before the

00:03:26.520 investigation ended, is the son of the guy who hired Jeffrey Epstein at age 20 with no teaching

00:03:33.080 experience or college degree to teach at one of the most prestigious schools in Manhattan.

00:03:35.760 What are the, if you were like, hey, Grok, what are the odds? What do you think the odds are?

00:03:39.080 Well, let's, whatever the odds are, let's add a few more zeros to that. So Donald Barr was also

00:03:46.760 somebody who was, he used to work for the OSS, which was the precursor to the CIA back during

00:03:50.880 World War II. So he has that connection. Excuse me. Donald Barr also dabbled in science fiction

00:04:00.000 writing in his spare time. One of the books that he wrote is called Space Relations, and he wrote it

00:04:05.740 right around this time that he hired Jeffrey Epstein. And I've read the book and you can go

00:04:09.340 read about it on Wikipedia. It's close enough to basically what the plot is if you want to get

00:04:12.800 the idea of it. But long and short is... But you read the book. Oh yeah, I have a copy. I make sure

00:04:17.520 I get a copy of things like that. I've got a copy of, you know, I went out and made sure I got a copy

00:04:21.880 of the Architectural Digest and Washington Life magazines that profiled Tony Podesta's house and

00:04:28.060 art collection just in case, you know, just in case... It disappeared.

00:04:31.840 It disappears. And so yeah, I got a copy of it. I read it. It's not a good book. It's a pulpy kind

00:04:38.760 of L. Ron Hubbard style science fiction book sort of. But the basic plot of it involves the main

00:04:44.100 character who is kidnapped and sold into slavery on this alien planet that's ruled by seven oligarchs

00:04:51.580 who just have been corrupted by their power and their wealth to the point where they're basically

00:04:58.260 insane. And they spend most of their time breeding young slaves and kidnapping children from around

00:05:05.040 the universe to bring them home and use them as sex slaves. And the main character, he gets assigned

00:05:10.200 or given to the one female oligarch on the planet. And at first, you know, he's sort of one of her

00:05:16.240 slaves and victims. But then she takes a liking to him and he joins her and participates in what's

00:05:24.120 going on. And there are scenes in there right near the beginning. There's a scene of these

00:05:27.300 grotesque aliens that kidnap the guy that they make the... One of them makes the prisoner's watch

00:05:33.500 while he, you know, rapes a 15-year-old virginal redhead. And so these are the books that Donald

00:05:41.520 Barr, former OSS agent, father of Bill Barr, the attorney general who had Jeffrey Epstein arrested

00:05:48.860 and oversaw his death. These are the kind of books that he was writing at the time that he

00:05:54.040 hired the most notorious pedophile in American history. So whatever the odds of the first part

00:05:59.360 were, you can probably add a few zeros to that. And we can keep adding zeros if you want.

00:06:04.280 I do. I mean, it's hard to believe that this is real, but it is real what you're describing as real.

00:06:10.280 Yeah, totally real, totally verifiable. This is not stuff you're going to find on fringe websites.

00:06:14.540 You can find it in, you know, any mainstream story about it, Wikipedia, even whatever.

00:06:20.840 So Bill Barr himself, you know, he was an intelligence-connected guy very deeply.

00:06:25.720 His first job out of college was as an intern for the CIA in the mid-70s.

00:06:30.380 And that doesn't sound like much until you learn that he was a legal intern with the CIA,

00:06:35.560 whose job was to be the liaison to Congress during the Church and Pipe Committee hearings that

00:06:40.900 were really like the first and up to this point, probably only time that the CIA has faced a real

00:06:48.080 threat of oversight and clamping down on its activities. And so this was a very, very critical

00:06:53.920 time when a lot of the agency's secrets were coming out and they were facing the possibility of,

00:07:00.400 well, they didn't know. I mean, the agency might've gotten shut down, you know, if this had gone badly

00:07:05.180 for them. And so Bill Barr is the legal intern who was the liaison. And what that meant was,

00:07:09.900 he was the guy that when Congress requested some documents, he's like, okay, goes back to the

00:07:15.740 agency, here's what they want. Okay, well, here's what we can give them. And he goes back and convinces

00:07:20.640 them that this is all there is or that they don't need the rest or anything like that. He was that

00:07:24.420 guy, you know, to smooth that over and make it work. And he apparently did a very good job because

00:07:28.760 the boss of the CIA at the time was George H.W. Bush. When George H.W. Bush took over as,

00:07:35.420 was elected president in 1988, took over in 89, he brought in Bill Barr to be his attorney general,

00:07:41.760 who's really, who spent most of his time, like at least the big story, I'm sure an attorney general

00:07:47.380 does a lot of things and wears a lot of hats. But the major story that was going on at the time was

00:07:51.880 cleaning up the, what was left of the Iran-Contra affair. And so you have the guy who was the legal

00:07:56.980 intern for the CIA during the Church and Pike committee hearings, brought in by the director of the CIA at

00:08:03.020 the time, to be the attorney general who is cleaning up the Iran-Contra affair that took place,

00:08:08.720 obviously, while Bush was the vice president. He goes into the private sector for a while,

00:08:14.100 reemerges when Donald Trump needs an attorney general of his own, not for any particular reason,

00:08:20.300 I guess, except, you know, then this happens. He just happens to arrest the guy that his father

00:08:25.340 gave his first job to, a job that he was totally unqualified for, and a guy who had proclivities

00:08:32.020 that most of us find very strange and unacceptable and are very, very rare, but coincidentally happened

00:08:40.920 to be the very topic that Donald Barr, Bill Barr's father, liked to write books about. So very strange.

00:08:48.060 It could all be a coincidence, but. The odds are against that. So Donald Barr hires, that's a

00:08:54.560 remarkable story, and I believe, and I've said it to him, that Bill Barr, as attorney general,

00:09:01.880 helped cover up Epstein's death, the details of his death. Again, here are the facts. The facts are

00:09:07.320 that he declared it a suicide before they'd finished the investigation, or even really began the

00:09:11.240 investigation. So that alone suggests dishonesty, I think. Anyway, or lack of rigor or something.

00:09:21.500 What happened to Jeffrey Epstein at Dalton? How long was he there?

00:09:24.240 He was there for about a year and a half, two years only, and then he was fired for poor performance,

00:09:28.400 is how it got written up, and maybe it was that. Again, he had no teaching experience and no college

00:09:33.320 degree, so it may have just been he was a bad math teacher. But there are people who had children as

00:09:38.300 students at the time who actually say he was a good math teacher, so maybe it had to do with

00:09:41.900 something else. Maybe it had to do with the fact that there were already allegations against Jeffrey

00:09:45.900 Epstein by the girls he was teaching at this high school of inappropriate behavior. He would even show

00:09:51.060 up to high school parties sometimes where kids are drinking and partying, and he would show up as the

00:09:56.880 teacher, the adult, and kind of just try to join in. So there were those complaints that were going on.

00:10:01.360 But while he was at Dalton School, before he got run out, one of the students he was teaching was

00:10:08.640 the father of one of the students he was teaching was the CEO of the investment bank, Bear Stearns at

00:10:14.660 the time, Ace Greenberg, he's known as. And he approached, I've heard it was Barr himself. I don't

00:10:21.420 know if that's the case, but he approached somebody who was one of his bosses or one of the people who

00:10:27.300 had brought him into the school and asked if he would make the introduction to Ace Greenberg

00:10:30.680 and put in a good word for him. And so he meets Greenberg, and Greenberg, when he gets run out

00:10:35.400 adult, and brings him on at Bear Stearns. And they put him to work.

00:10:40.260 So by this point, Jeffrey Epstein's like 22, 21?

00:10:44.320 Thereabouts. This is 1976. I think he was born in 53. So yeah, 23 years old, maybe.

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00:12:36.120 With no college degree, two years of college at Cooper Union, and he's been a high school math

00:12:43.540 teacher, and he got basically fired from that job, and he gets hired at Bear Stearns?

00:12:48.000 He gets hired at Bear Stearns.

00:12:49.760 Is that normal?

00:12:51.120 I couldn't tell you, especially back then. I'm not really sure.

00:12:54.620 Does it sound normal?

00:12:55.380 I doubt it.

00:12:56.540 Doesn't sound normal, but whatever.

00:12:58.880 So he gets brought in, and the story goes that they put him on the options desk at first,

00:13:02.500 but he was not very good at it or not very engaged or interested in it. And so they put

00:13:06.880 him in their special products division where Jimmy Kane, who took over as CEO of Bear Stearns

00:13:11.980 from Ace Greenberg, described what Epstein did there in the special products division. And he

00:13:16.480 basically, in so many words, in sort of the Wall Street financial speak, said that his job was to

00:13:24.420 help wealthy clients hide their money, to create, you know, tax advantageous transactions that, you know,

00:13:31.220 that kind of thing.

00:13:31.760 But it was to help wealthy clients hide their money. And while he was doing that, he met and came into

00:13:37.080 contact with a lot of well-known people who became very important for the rest of his

00:13:42.360 wealthy clients, wealthy clients. Yeah. And it's like one of them, for example, was, uh, Edgar

00:13:47.060 Bronfman, who will come up later in our story. He's, uh, one of the heirs to the Seagram's liquor

00:13:51.280 fortune. Um, very connected guy. We'll probably get to that in a while. Um, but that only lasts

00:13:58.000 four years. He's there at Bear Stearns from 76 to 1980. And then he gets run out of Bear Stearns for

00:14:03.960 a regulatory violation. And, you know, the story kind of goes there, the official story from the people

00:14:10.580 who were all involved in it at the time are that he was breaking the rules and they were very, very,

00:14:15.300 very upset about it. But apparently he stayed friends, close friends with Ace Greenberg and

00:14:19.760 Jimmy Kane for a long time after that. And he banked with Bear Stearns all the way up until the time the

00:14:24.240 investment bank collapsed in 2008. So there weren't that many hard feelings or that intense of hard

00:14:30.440 feelings apparently. Um, but he left and I think the, I think the reason for it is probably pretty

00:14:35.400 obvious. Um, he just got a little too aggressive, uh, and flew a little too close to the sun doing

00:14:42.140 the job that they had hired him to do, you know? And, um, and so he had to leave cause there was a

00:14:47.500 violation. They didn't want the attention and everything, but he landed on his feet. He stayed

00:14:50.640 friends with the people who hired him, all those kinds of things. And this is where it gets like

00:14:54.280 really interesting. So again, to go over his resume, he does two years of college, drops out,

00:15:02.100 gets hired as a high school math teacher, is run out of that job ignominiously, either for poor

00:15:07.920 performance or for harassing his female students. Then he goes to work for Bear Stearns, does that

00:15:12.960 for just a few years and gets run out of there for a regulatory violation. And that is his resume at

00:15:18.140 this point. There's nothing else I'm leaving out. The very next year, and this would make him, I guess,

00:15:24.020 28 years old. It's 1981. He's 28 years old. We have him on a private airplane with a big

00:15:32.000 time British arms broker named Douglas Lease, very big player back in the 1980s, um, on a private

00:15:39.940 plane to go to a meeting at the Pentagon with this guy. Okay. Not for the first time, I'm going to

00:15:45.620 stop you and say it doesn't make any sense at all. Not if, yeah. So, uh, if you're looking at it in a

00:15:51.900 conventional way, it doesn't make any sense. Not if you assume the world works in the ways that we're

00:15:55.080 told it works. That doesn't make any sense. Right. And so you have to ask, what is it that a guy like

00:16:00.140 Douglas Lease, uh, would be, what, what interest would he have in a guy like Jeffrey Epstein?

00:16:05.820 Um, even if he was a money man of some kind, presumably a guy like that can have any money

00:16:12.060 man he wants. Why does he need a guy like Jeffrey Epstein? And I think the answer is, and this is

00:16:17.300 the answer to the lot, a lot of researchers have come to, uh, over the years. And I think it's the

00:16:21.020 most, uh, the most obvious one, at least the simplest is that when you look at the kind of things

00:16:27.220 that somebody like Lease would do, it's not as if Lease owned a weapons manufacturer. That's

00:16:31.420 not what he did. He was a fixer. He was a guy who made the deals happen. He made sure the right

00:16:35.540 people got paid off and, uh, that everything was kind of smoothed over so that these things would

00:16:40.440 go through. He was mentioned, for example, in the UK parliament, uh, in the 1980s in reference to the

00:16:46.020 El Yamama weapons deal with Saudi Arabia, which is the biggest weapons deal in UK history. I think to

00:16:50.820 this day, uh, BAE systems alone has made $46 billion off this deal over the, over the years. And I think

00:16:57.000 that was up through 2010 or something. So it's probably higher now. Um, but there've been,

00:17:02.640 there've been allegations from politicians, from, um, lawyers, journalists, um, other weapons

00:17:10.000 companies who were upset about, you know, their competition, getting a leg up this way that there

00:17:13.540 were, that there was bribery. There was all kinds of shady stuff going on behind the scenes to make sure

00:17:19.540 that the deal went the way that they wanted it to go. And, um, you know, you think, uh,

00:17:25.340 that a guy who is, who, who, you know, a guy like lease, whose job is to go around and make sure that

00:17:32.520 people are being paid off with illicit funds that cannot be traced because then you end up like

00:17:37.280 Lockheed Martin did when they got caught bribing officials in Japan to sign off on a weapons deal

00:17:41.820 there. Nobody wants that. You got to hide your money better. You got to figure out how to do that in a

00:17:45.980 way that nobody's going to track it. And that's why you need a guy like Jeffrey Epstein. You're not

00:17:50.680 going to be able to walk in the front door of Goldman Sachs and say, I need to talk to one of

00:17:54.420 your money managers. Hey, can you launder this money for me? You need a guy who's morally compromised,

00:17:59.040 who is willing to get down in the dirt and do this kind of work. And that is what Jeffrey Epstein had

00:18:04.480 just spent the last four years at Bear Stearns doing. Um, I don't know how, I don't know, I, this may

00:18:10.700 be out there, but I can't remember ever coming across how it is he met lease. Um, but it was probably,

00:18:17.440 you know, uh, through the wealthy clients that he was, that he was working for there at Bear

00:18:22.320 Stearns so that when he did get run out, they made sure he landed on his feet and he was doing

00:18:26.200 something that, you know, he could actually exceed at, succeed at. And so you go through the 1980s

00:18:31.400 and, uh, lease is the guy who introduces him to Robert Maxwell. He introduces him to a lot of big

00:18:39.980 players and figures in European politics and, and, uh, in the economy and, um, introduces him to

00:18:46.220 Maxwell and Maxwell introduces him to his daughter, Ghislaine, who became his partner in crime.

00:18:52.220 I guess you'd say over the years. And, um, Robert Maxwell's a super interesting character

00:18:58.480 because, you know, this is the reason that I brought up near the beginning. And we should

00:19:02.540 probably say like the thing that, the thing that people are really interested in this story

00:19:07.240 about, I mean, there's the tabloid aspect of it. You know, I think there's, there's a lot

00:19:11.340 of people out there who just, there's always talk about the Epstein list. You know, they want,

00:19:15.780 they want, they want there to be a safe that the FBI opens up or drills a hole and cracks into.

00:19:20.340 And then there's just a ledger of, you know, signed in blood. I Jeffrey Epstein, you know,

00:19:25.780 compromise these famous movie stars and politicians on these days. That's what people want. They're not

00:19:31.100 going to get that. That kind of thing doesn't exist. Um, the really interesting aspect of it

00:19:35.740 is encapsulated in just one incident, which happened in, uh, I guess this came out after

00:19:41.960 Epstein was arrested during the first Trump administration that Alexander Acosta, who was

00:19:46.360 Trump's labor secretary at the time, uh, he had been the U S attorney in the Southern district of

00:19:52.500 Florida in charge of prosecuting Epstein's first sex crimes case back in the mid two thousands.

00:19:58.140 And we'll get to all of this later, but Epstein was, was given a, a very, very, to call it a light

00:20:04.900 sentence is, um, is, is, is being very generous in how we describe it. I'll get into the details of

00:20:10.120 how it all came together and what the actual sentence was later. But, um, he was asked in his

00:20:16.320 vetting process, Alexander Acosta, Hey, if this comes up, you know, this is a potential scandal.

00:20:20.920 You gave this, this pedophile with all these victims against, you know, they, they had like 40

00:20:25.360 witnesses in that 2007, 2008 case. I mean, on the record, corroborating each other's stories

00:20:31.280 independently. I mean, this was the most open and shut case you can imagine. We'll get into the case

00:20:35.580 here in a bit, but, uh, he was asked, how could you, you know, what's, what's your excuse for giving

00:20:39.880 this guy the deal that you gave him? Cause it's kind of crazy. Um, and he said, well, I was told

00:20:45.660 that Epstein belonged to intelligence and to leave it alone. Now this is from an, to be fair,

00:20:53.720 this is from an unnamed source in the administration who was involved in that vetting process as told

00:20:59.940 to the journalist, Vicki Ward. Um, I don't think Ward would make that up and I don't think she would

00:21:06.000 embellish it. Well, I have something to, I have something to add to this, which is true. And I

00:21:10.080 would be delighted to talk to Mr. Acosta anytime, by the way. So I say this with the caveat that it

00:21:15.660 hasn't been, he's not said this to me, but I believe that he's been asked about this and that

00:21:22.580 has not denied it. And that his response was that's true, but I don't remember who said it to

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00:24:30.500 Well, I mean, how many people can tell the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of Florida

00:24:35.940 to drop a case against a pedophile with 40 on-the-record witnesses corroborating each other's

00:24:40.940 stories? There's not very many people who can tell him to do that.

00:24:43.380 No. There's not many people who can murder an inmate in federal lockup in Manhattan either.

00:24:47.480 I mean, who's he going to take that order from? And who is it going to have enough juice

00:24:50.780 from that he's going to say, yes, boss, and actually go do that? You know, the Deputy

00:24:54.540 Attorney General and the Attorney General, maybe, I guess. I mean, there's just not that

00:24:58.980 many people who can do that, you know. And the whole case, and we'll get into this later,

00:25:02.260 was, yeah, it was just incredibly shady how it was handled from day one. I mean, but yeah,

00:25:09.660 anyway, I'll put that aside because the interesting thing there is you have the most famous

00:25:14.960 and prolific mass pedophile in the history of the United States, certainly the most famous

00:25:19.680 one, who the Labor Secretary under, I don't know if they put people under oath when they

00:25:26.660 do these vettings, probably not, but he told somebody in a setting where it mattered and

00:25:30.820 where he wasn't being watched. You know, this wasn't for publicity or anything like that.

00:25:34.780 It was behind closed doors. He said that Epstein belonged to intelligence, which, you know,

00:25:40.480 could mean a lot of things. You know, a lot of people want to hear that he worked for

00:25:43.620 the CIA or the Mossad or something like that. But, you know, there's a lot of wiggle room there

00:25:50.680 when you say, I think Naftali Bennett, the former Israeli prime minister, just came out recently and

00:25:54.980 said, I can say categorically that Jeffrey Epstein did not work for the Mossad. It's like, okay, so

00:26:01.820 he wasn't an employee of the Mossad. Was he an asset of Israeli military intelligence,

00:26:09.160 which is something different? Now, you know, Bennett's not lying, but kind of not telling

00:26:13.520 the whole truth either. And so you got to be careful with, uh, with the wiggle room in the,

00:26:17.080 in the words that people use. But when you have that, and when you, I mean, to me, I don't know,

00:26:24.220 this is just, maybe I'm missing something here. I'm not a journalist or anything, but I would think

00:26:28.660 that when you have a story like the Jeffrey Epstein story, that every time any little piece of

00:26:35.400 information has dropped about the Epstein story ever since he was arrested, doesn't matter what

00:26:39.440 it is, any little drib and drab, it goes viral. It is the number one story that night. It is the

00:26:44.640 highest ratings of any show or anything, whoever talks about it, whatever it is, everybody wants

00:26:49.960 more information on this story. It's just too good to be true from like a, a network or newspaper

00:26:54.560 perspective, right? You talk about like billionaire playboy who has connections through just around

00:27:01.840 world governments and U S government, uh, including just wealthy, famous people, business owners,

00:27:07.800 people that everybody has heard of and sees on TV all the time. Um, that that guy was running a mass

00:27:13.880 pedophile ring and the labor secretary under Donald Trump, who was the guy in charge of prosecuting him

00:27:20.860 in 2007 said that he belonged to intelligence. I would think that every newspaper in the country

00:27:27.120 and every cable news channel in the country would have a team of reporters camped out on that

00:27:31.560 dude's lawn to stick a microphone in his face every time he left his house and say, what did you mean

00:27:36.200 by that? Can we get some kind of clarity on whether this pedophile was, you know, belonging to him?

00:27:41.520 But we don't get that. And when you don't get things like that, you get a lot of room for speculation

00:27:45.960 and, uh, you know, it's kind of justified speculation. I mean, what, what is that? And instead you get a lot

00:27:51.880 of emphasis on the sex part, which deserves attention. Of course, these are sex crimes,

00:27:58.060 apparently in some cases against minors, horrible, not acceptable, but the other parts are completely

00:28:05.340 ignored. Like what was this guy doing? This Cooper union, non-graduate bear sturt. And then he's with

00:28:12.600 an arms dealer flying private to meeting at the Pentagon, like take three steps back. What is that?

00:28:18.240 Hired by a guy at that first job who had connections to intelligence through the OSS,

00:28:23.260 um, whose son was a CIA connected guy, the guy, I mean, so all of these, you know, the reason I

00:28:27.820 threw out all of these kind of intelligence connections that aren't, you know, they're,

00:28:33.240 they're, they're, it's, it's all circumstantial stuff that doesn't attach necessarily the fact

00:28:37.160 that Donald Barr worked for the OSS back during the war that Donald or that his son Bill Barr

00:28:41.460 worked for the CIA. That doesn't by itself mean anything about Epstein.

00:28:46.120 I think his son Bill Barr spent like what, six years?

00:28:48.600 I think six, yeah.

00:28:49.620 So he wasn't just an intern. And by the way, he stayed, was an employee. Um, but it's not

00:28:54.220 just circumstantial because you have apparently the former labor tech secretary saying, former

00:28:59.120 union's attorney, federal prosecutor saying he belonged to intelligence. So I, anyway, I'm

00:29:04.060 not trying to justify my interest in this. I don't think it needs justifying, but I think

00:29:08.680 the people who haven't covered the story and the, the, the material parts of the stuff that

00:29:15.020 actually really matters, they need to justify their lack of interest in it. Like, what is

00:29:18.720 that New York times?

00:29:20.020 Yeah. You, it's natural to start asking questions when, when a question that would occur to anybody,

00:29:28.400 somebody who just heard a five minute synopsis of the story and they're from Mars and they have

00:29:32.300 never heard any of it before. You tell them the short little story, a five minute version

00:29:36.460 of it that I just told you. And the first thing they're going to ask is, well, what did he

00:29:40.440 mean when he said that Epstein belonged to intelligence? What's going on there? And you

00:29:44.100 can't get a journalist to ask that question. Right. And so it's natural for us to start

00:29:48.220 wondering why that is.

00:29:49.120 Well, because the, the question that all of this bears on the purpose of this interview,

00:29:53.580 the purpose of all questions that I've ever raised about Epstein go back to one central

00:29:57.940 question, which is who runs the world? Who's making the decisions and on whose behalf this

00:30:03.600 idea that, you know, there are all these a hundred and whatever nation states each acting

00:30:07.540 and it's a, that's not true. And so what is true? The, this may point us in that direction.

00:30:14.580 Yeah. You know, one of the things that we go back to the 1980s, I mean, it's just such a

00:30:19.320 fascinating time because in the Iran Contra deal, Mike Benz likes to point this out and he's great

00:30:24.080 on all of the Epstein stuff in the eighties and just the, a lot of the intelligence shenanigans

00:30:29.380 in general going on back then is that, you know, the, it really provides a window into

00:30:34.220 the question you're asking right now, who runs the world? Like who's actually in charge of

00:30:37.800 everything that's going on? How does, how is power structured and how does it operate

00:30:41.300 really, you know, in the world? And if you go back to those, the church and pipe committee

00:30:47.840 hearings, and then you roll into the Carter administration where he brings Admiral Stansfield

00:30:51.820 Turner in to run the CIA and basically gives him a directive to pare down the agency's operational,

00:30:58.180 uh, commitments and the things that it does in the, in the field, start focusing more on,

00:31:03.700 you know, what, what Truman thought he was getting himself into, which was, uh, you know,

00:31:07.840 a batch of analysts to help keep the president informed as he made decisions. And by all accounts,

00:31:12.760 far as I know, uh, Admiral Turner tried to do that job with some enthusiasm. Um, you, you,

00:31:20.540 you get to the point where by the 1980s, the CIA's ability to operate is, is under a lot of

00:31:29.100 scrutiny and limited in ways that it never had been before. I mean, you go back to the 50s, 60s,

00:31:33.460 and 70s, and I mean, they were just cowboys. Yeah. They're dosing elephants with LSD. Yeah. Right.

00:31:38.380 Exactly. Whatever you want. They're visiting, you know, Jack Ruby in prison and turning him crazy.

00:31:43.380 I mean, right. And so, and so it's right at that time when their activities are being curtailed and under a

00:31:48.680 lot of scrutiny that you start to see the emergence of the system that we have now that, that pops up

00:31:55.320 again and again, whenever we end up in a place like Ukraine or, or just anywhere where you have

00:31:59.820 institutions like the national endowment for democracy or USAID, a lot of these other

00:32:05.380 organizations that, you know, they're not, they're not the CIA there. This is where you have like, uh,

00:32:11.400 one of the former heads of the national endowment for democracy on the record in an interview,

00:32:15.240 almost bragging in his tone saying, we do all the jobs at the CIA used to do. And so it was

00:32:21.160 outsourced, you know, the CIA is in coordination with CIA and other hundred percent, a hundred

00:32:25.920 percent. And so, uh, that's when you get guys like Epstein who are, you know, they're not, uh,

00:32:34.020 economists that are, or, or finance guys that are hired by the agency and given an office and a CIA,

00:32:39.400 you know, GS rank or something. They're freelancers, they're mercenaries. They work for the CIA

00:32:44.020 today. They might work for MI6 tomorrow. They might work for the Mossad or Israeli defense

00:32:48.800 intelligence the next day. And so that's one of the things, a lot of people want to hear that he

00:32:52.500 was an agent of this organization and like sort of have it nice and pat and tight like that. And it

00:32:58.620 may be that he did more work for one than the other. He had more loyalty to one than the other,

00:33:02.680 things like that. When you look at his various connections that we'll get into, maybe there's,

00:33:06.640 you know, conclusions to draw there. Um, but he was, he was one of these guys who was kind of a

00:33:11.440 freelance fixer that would be used by the intelligence, uh, communities of countries

00:33:16.540 that, you know, that you, I assume he wouldn't go run off and do it for Russian intelligence back

00:33:21.400 in the 1980s. But as you said, you know, the idea that there's a hundred something independent nation

00:33:26.500 states all acting in their own interest, that's a, that's a fiction today. It was a fiction yesterday.

00:33:31.380 It was a fiction in the 1980s, you know? So to say like, where exactly is the line? And it shifts

00:33:36.820 from decade to decade, depending on what's going on, but where exactly is the line between the CIA

00:33:40.900 and MI6? They're different. They, you know, they, they compete with each other in various ways and so

00:33:46.360 forth. But I mean, to say that there are two just totally separate independent agencies that are

00:33:53.080 acting alone. And I mean, that's obviously just not, that's just not true. And so, uh, Epstein was an

00:33:58.640 asset of this network of intelligence agencies that would, that would, that would do these things

00:34:03.020 together. And, um, you know, the Iran, he, he was, he was deeply involved with, uh, the money side of

00:34:09.600 the Iran Contra scandal. One of the people that, uh, Douglas Lease introduced him to besides Robert

00:34:14.980 Maxwell was Adnan Khashoggi, who the last name probably sounds familiar to people from the news

00:34:19.420 recently. He was the Washington Post, uh, columnist or editorialist who was chopped up into little pieces

00:34:24.540 in the Turkish embassy, um, by, by Saudi embassy or the Saudi embassy in Istanbul, uh, by, by, you know,

00:34:31.400 the Saudis who had, who had taken him. And, um, Adnan Khashoggi was his uncle and he's, he was kind

00:34:38.440 of the, you know, he's the real Khashoggi. So there are only like four families that control

00:34:41.960 the world. So far we have the Bushes, the Bars, the Khashoggi. It's like everything, but everybody's

00:34:47.740 reoccurring in the story. Well, even the Khashoggi are kind of an example of what I'm talking about

00:34:51.320 here where, uh, you know, it's useful. Like we'd be talking about somebody other than Adnan Khashoggi

00:34:57.440 if it was, if his name was, uh, Adnan Al Saud, you know, the fact that he's not a part of the

00:35:03.560 royal family, he's a cutout. These people are cutouts because that's what you need. You need

00:35:07.220 when it gets to a point where, um, you know, they get a little bit too loose, too public,

00:35:13.440 they start doing things that are drawing too much attention that you can cut them loose without

00:35:18.080 it being your cousin or brother. That's going to cause like real internal strife, you know?

00:35:22.740 And that's what happened. Adnan Khashoggi eventually went to jail. But so Adnan Khashoggi was like the,

00:35:27.260 the comic book version of like your, uh, you know, your Arab billionaire, just sort of very

00:35:33.500 decadent, everything gold, crazy, giant yacht that was later bought by Donald Trump actually.

00:35:38.820 Um, but Adnan Khashoggi was, and again, this is, uh, this is mainstream news. You don't have to

00:35:43.520 get a harem, the whole thing. Like whatever you think that, uh, somebody like that would be like,

00:35:48.740 that's what he was, that's who he was like. Although apparently a very devout Muslim,

00:35:52.140 uh, which is, you know, seems like a contradiction, but I don't pretend to, uh.

00:35:56.400 Also in the, in the words of people I know who knew him, good guy.

00:35:59.220 Yeah. Isn't that funny?

00:36:01.260 Good guy.

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00:38:11.060 But he was one of these fixers. He was, in fact, probably in the 1980s for a long time,

00:38:15.020 probably the most prominent fixer when it came to weapons brokering, things like that. You got to

00:38:19.500 remember, in the 1980s, this really kicked into like super high gear in the 90s, but it's already

00:38:24.940 going on in the 80s as the Soviet Union was starting to fall apart. I mean, they had a first world

00:38:29.700 empire's military arsenal that was just going on sale by every colonel who had control of an armory

00:38:36.980 or something, you know, putting this stuff on the market because everybody can look around and realize

00:38:40.520 that the ship's sinking and they want to go pull the nice brass doorknobs and, you know, sink fixtures

00:38:45.620 off so they can escape. And that was happening even in the 1980s. And that's why, you know, you look

00:38:50.140 around the world back then and everywhere you look, you've got civil wars, you've got militias kicking

00:38:56.200 off revolutions and they've all got AKs, they've got all the Russian-made gear because it's all

00:39:00.820 being sold off by, you know, whoever can get their hands on it in the Soviet Union. And we're talking

00:39:04.860 billions, tens, hundreds of billions of dollars of weapons that are hitting the world black market,

00:39:09.560 right? And Anand Khashoggi at this really critical time in, you know, in the history of, I guess,

00:39:18.020 the post-war order, but also just the history of the intelligence communities in the West and other

00:39:22.980 places, he's kind of one of the main guys who is, you know, he doesn't, just like Douglas

00:39:28.220 Lease, he doesn't own a weapons manufacturing company. He's the guy who makes the deals happen.

00:39:32.720 He's a fixer. He's a guy who goes between different parties who maybe don't speak the

00:39:37.480 same language or whatever, and he makes sure the right people get paid. He knows who has

00:39:42.160 to get paid, all these things. And so, for example, you go back in the 1980s when he was

00:39:47.760 working on the books for companies like Lockheed Martin. And I'll get the exact number wrong right

00:39:54.000 now, but it's like this. I mean, there was like one year, they pay him $180 million. And this is

00:40:00.860 like the 1980s, so it's probably half a billion dollars today. Another year, $210 million they

00:40:06.120 pay him in one year, you know? I mean, this is, you know.

00:40:09.800 And he's not manufacturing anything.

00:40:12.200 Correct.

00:40:12.460 And he's not actually buying anything. He's merely the middleman.

00:40:16.420 He is the middleman and the dealmaker.

00:40:17.860 That's a lot. That's a big vig, I think.

00:40:20.900 Yeah. And so a lot of that money obviously is not being kept by him. It's being paid

00:40:24.700 out to the people that you need in order to make all this happen. But a huge amount of

00:40:29.500 it's going to him, you know? And so if you are a guy who, oh, you know, let me get to

00:40:37.140 this part. So after Jeffrey Epstein leaves Bear Stearns, and around the same time that

00:40:42.620 he ends up on that private plane with Douglas Lease on his way to the Pentagon, he starts

00:40:46.820 his own company. And as far as anybody's ever been able to find out, as far as I've ever

00:40:54.180 been able to find, and I have looked, he had one client, and that client was Adnan Khashoggi.

00:40:59.380 And so, you know, that's just another connection where you have him-

00:41:03.480 How in the world? So I was alive and reading the newspaper then. Adnan Khashoggi was one

00:41:09.160 of the most famous people in the world. I mean, he was in, you know, the New York Times

00:41:13.340 and the National Enquirer and the New York Post. Everyone knew who he was. How does this

00:41:17.700 guy with two failed jobs and two years at Cooper Union end up starting a company where

00:41:24.560 his only client is Adnan Khashoggi? No, I'm serious.

00:41:28.580 Well, I think probably the answer is that the company was set up so that he could do

00:41:32.740 a job for Adnan Khashoggi. Of course. A more direct way to put it was, how does he get

00:41:37.240 connected with Adnan Khashoggi? Through Douglas Lease.

00:41:40.260 How does he get connected to Douglas Lease? Well, I assume through his wealthy clientele when

00:41:43.720 he was laundering money at Bear Stearns. You know, that's how he met, again, a lot of the

00:41:47.660 people that would later become important to him. And so-

00:41:50.940 You've got to admire his pluck, I must say.

00:41:53.600 He was a hustler, man. You know, that's definitely true. It's sort of a, I think when people get

00:42:00.100 up to that level of power or just, you know, when they reach those heights, even if it's

00:42:05.380 a lot of times if it's athletes, but if it's political figures or anything like that, you

00:42:08.900 know, there's often an obsessive impulse that drives them to be very successful, but often

00:42:16.980 disorders the personality in ways that became very-

00:42:19.040 He was disordered, according to people unknown. But it's just interesting, it's amazing how

00:42:24.340 many people he intersected with in his life.

00:42:28.160 I remember when Anthony Blinken became Secretary of State, and, you know, I had been following

00:42:36.560 the Epstein story and just all the connections with it for a long time by then. And so I knew

00:42:43.080 that Anthony Blinken's stepfather was Robert Maxwell's closest confidant, his lawyer, and

00:42:49.840 the last person to speak to him before he died.

00:42:52.360 Before he was murdered.

00:42:53.320 Yeah, probably, yeah. And we'll get to that too. But it's like, I've learned over the years

00:43:00.640 not to place too many demands on our ruling class. You know, I don't want to get all crazy.

00:43:06.040 I'm not going to tell you guys to stop taking bribes. I'm not going to ask. That's all fine.

00:43:10.000 Just keep the bribes, whatever. Can we have one major public official that is not a single

00:43:16.320 degree separated from Jeffrey Epstein? Is that possible? Because apparently it's not possible.

00:43:20.640 You got Donald Trump talking about the issue the other day on camera, and the guy standing

00:43:25.100 next to him is Howard Lutnick, who was Epstein's neighbor for years, you know.

00:43:29.940 In New York, I'm for that one.

00:43:31.620 It's like, can we just get like one important person who's not one degree or less separated

00:43:37.780 from the most prolific mass pedophile in U.S. history? Is that possible? Because apparently

00:43:43.340 it's not.

00:43:44.200 You may be answering the question, why is the press not as interested in this story as they

00:43:48.900 would, under other circumstances, be. I have the feeling if you were accused of being a mass

00:43:54.800 pedophile, there would be more media interest to that.

00:43:58.040 They would love that. You know, when you're somebody like me, or probably somebody like you,

00:44:02.180 it's good that, you know, we don't drink and we lead pretty boring lives.

00:44:05.380 Right. So that's, okay, so Douglas Lease, he winds up on this plane. Then he starts to a meeting at

00:44:12.300 the Pentagon, presumably about arms sales. We're not exactly sure how he got into the company of

00:44:17.260 Douglas Lease, but we assume it's because he was set up by one of his clients at Bear Stearns,

00:44:21.700 from which he was fired in a job that he was apparently set up by Donald Barr to get, okay.

00:44:28.420 Then he sets up this company to work with or for Adnan Khashoggi. What happens next?

00:44:35.600 Well, so there's not a lot, there's not a whole lot of detail on Epstein specifically during this

00:44:40.360 period, but there is a lot of detail on guys like Adnan Khashoggi. And so you can kind of

00:44:44.380 read between the lines as he progresses through. Adnan Khashoggi was the chief guy really that we used

00:44:49.780 in the Middle East to broker and fix the Iran side of the Iran-Contra deal. And so,

00:44:56.200 you know, people have heard the term, maybe younger people aren't that familiar with what

00:45:00.080 Iran-Contra was. I mean, I mean, I know probably a lot of people watching this are fans of Reagan

00:45:06.700 and the Reagan administration and all that, and that's fine. But I mean, the Iran-Contra deal was

00:45:10.460 like, if it wasn't high treason, especially on the Iran side, I mean, it was an inch away from it.

00:45:16.340 You know, I mean, this is a declared enemy of the United States. We have a law, you know,

00:45:22.620 a past embargo forbidding the United States government or any company that is in the United

00:45:27.920 States from selling weapons to the Iranians. And that's what we were doing. And so like the

00:45:32.520 brief summary of the Iran-Contra scandal was, we had two things that our intelligence agencies

00:45:38.200 wanted to do, or our security establishment, let's say, wanted to do, but that they were not

00:45:42.120 allowed to do. One was the Iran-Iraq wars going on. And our interest in that war at the time,

00:45:48.100 at least, was just to keep it going as long as possible. Something really evil, I think,

00:45:52.560 about funding and providing support to both sides of a war for the express purpose of just

00:45:57.580 making it go on longer. But from a cold-hearted strategic perspective, you can understand,

00:46:03.600 you know, what people were thinking, at least. But that's what we want to do. Saddam Hussein

00:46:08.800 at the time was, you know, was having success on the battlefield. We wanted to make sure that

00:46:14.860 the Iranians stuck around a little bit longer and Saddam didn't get too powerful, because that's

00:46:18.460 what we were worried about at the time, Saddam getting too powerful. And so the other thing we

00:46:23.880 wanted to do was we wanted to provide support for the Nicaraguan Contras who were fighting the

00:46:27.600 Sandinista government down there. In the early 1980s, an amendment to a budget was passed in the

00:46:36.020 House called the Boland Amendment. It was passed 477 to zero, which, you know, if you're a president,

00:46:42.000 we've learned you can kind of defy Congress to a degree. If they voted 477 to zero, you're probably

00:46:47.640 playing with a little bit of fire if you want to do that. And so, but we really, really, really

00:46:52.220 wanted to support the Contras against the communist government in Nicaragua. And the Boland Amendment,

00:46:58.680 what it said was you can't use any of the money in this budget, any U.S. government funds that cannot

00:47:04.300 go to the Contras in any way, shape, or form. It can't go to them, you know, as weapons. It can't go to

00:47:11.200 them as cookies. You can't, it just cannot go to them. And so you got these two things that security

00:47:16.640 establishment really wants to do that they're forbidden by law from doing. And they bring both

00:47:21.100 of those things together and figure out how to make one hand kind of wash the other. The idea was we're

00:47:26.360 going to sell weapons to Iran, which we're not allowed to do, but we are allowed to sell weapons

00:47:30.060 to Israel. And Israel has a lot of the same weapon systems that we want to send to Iran. So we're going

00:47:34.960 to sell them to Israel. Israel, working through guys like Adnan Khashoggi, are going to get those,

00:47:39.920 get their weapons to Iran, get these weapons to Iran. And we're not selling anything to Iran.

00:47:44.980 We're selling to Israel. Iran's going to pay, they're going to pay a premium for these weapons.

00:47:49.760 And that premium is off the books and that is going to be used to support the Contras. And so

00:47:54.840 that was basically the scheme. Now you have, when you're doing something like that, I mean,

00:48:01.780 all you have to do is look at any big mafia court case or something, you know, watch a mob movie where

00:48:06.860 they go to court. It's always the money. Like the money is how you get caught doing stuff like this.

00:48:11.280 People think of money laundering as like this boring sideshow when it comes to organized crime

00:48:16.880 or their cousins in the intelligence community. It's not a sideshow. It's right at the center of

00:48:22.180 the thing. The whole operation relies on money laundering because you have to be able to hide

00:48:26.120 that. It's the easiest way to trace out your networks and what they're doing and who's a part of

00:48:30.780 them. Who is you? I mean, you can figure out everything from it. Who's the most significant

00:48:34.740 player in this network? All these things just by looking at their money. And so you have to have

00:48:39.720 guys like Jeffrey Epstein, who spent four years at Bear Stearns and a few years since then, like by

00:48:45.840 the time he starts doing work for Khashoggi, figuring out how to move money offshore, move it around through

00:48:53.200 different countries over time, changing jurisdictions. Because you've got to remember too, this was back before

00:48:58.180 the internet or anything like that. It was not exactly an easy process to just hop on your computer

00:49:02.940 and look at where these transactions are being passed through the global financial system.

00:49:08.000 You know, it's a different world today for that reason. But it was tougher back then. You had to

00:49:11.960 send investigators probably to that country to go to that bank and look at their records kind of thing,

00:49:16.860 you know. And so, but still, you needed a guy like Epstein who was skilled at moving money around in

00:49:22.580 ways and hiding it in ways that it at least would be, would be hard to trace. Like they would pass at

00:49:31.620 a first glance, you know. If you get like a really skilled forensic accounting team at the Department

00:49:35.720 of Justice who really dedicates themselves to it, they can figure it out. But it needs to just pass

00:49:40.160 at a glance so that some congressman's not taking a look at it, you know.

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00:50:49.400 And so Epstein is one of the guys, presumably one of multiple guys who was working the financial side.

00:50:57.420 I'm not sure 100% about that, but I presume they weren't only relying on this one guy for

00:51:04.280 these things that were going on, who was handling the money and making sure that-

00:51:08.520 In Iran-Contra.

00:51:09.980 Well, he was working for Anand Khashoggi doing that when Anand Khashoggi was involved with

00:51:14.840 an Iran-Contra. I don't have any document or anything that says Jeffrey Epstein specifically

00:51:21.800 was working with the intelligence agency on Iran-Contra, anything like that. We know he was

00:51:27.040 doing work for Khashoggi that involved this kind of thing, because that's what the company

00:51:31.440 did.

00:51:31.860 And he's an American.

00:51:33.200 Yes.

00:51:33.820 Right. Who, at least for Donald Barr anyway, he has some intel. He's rubbed up against people

00:51:40.340 who are familiar with the intel world.

00:51:43.160 Well, when you're also, real quick, like if you're working for people and with people

00:51:46.400 like Douglas Lees, Adnan Khashoggi, Robert Maxwell, you're rubbing against the intelligence

00:51:51.500 one.

00:51:51.520 Right in the middle of it.

00:51:52.620 And so, and that was the thing they were working on. It just blows my mind that there's

00:51:56.920 a connection between Jeffrey Epstein and Iran-Contra that just really, I guess I shouldn't be

00:52:01.800 surprised.

00:52:02.680 I mean, Iran-Contra, it is like sort of the patient zero for understanding the power structure

00:52:07.200 in the modern world in a lot of ways. It really, really is. It's so fascinating.

00:52:10.440 I remember it well. And the, I mean, I very well and knew people who were involved in it

00:52:17.120 very well. And I just, I thought it was all fake. It was years, it was years before I realized

00:52:25.500 that that was a meaningful thing. And I think many conservatives and Republicans, I'm still

00:52:30.100 a conservative Republican. However, I try to be more honest and thoughtful than I once

00:52:35.740 was. And like, that is a big, that's a big thing that they did. And, um, no one was ever

00:52:41.360 really punished for it.

00:52:43.360 And the people that were kind of celebrities now, you know, I'm doing some of whom I really

00:52:47.920 like. I mean, I just want to say for the record,

00:52:49.720 I think a lot of those people were patriots, man, but you get caught up, especially in the

00:52:53.160 cold, during the cold war. You know, I tell people sometimes that, look, I don't like a lot

00:52:58.340 of the stuff that went on in the cold war. Um, there are a lot of things that the U S did

00:53:01.940 that I wish weren't in our history books and, you know, that, that, that historians

00:53:06.000 500 years from now, weren't going to have to read about us, you know, in their history

00:53:09.660 books. Um, but for the people at the time, I mean.

00:53:13.460 Oh, I knew them. I knew them. Yeah. No, I agree. And you know, there are a couple, but

00:53:18.440 Ollie North is the famous one. And, uh, you know, what a, what a nice man, what a good

00:53:23.180 man. So I just want to say that, but, but he's not the, Ollie North is not the one who

00:53:27.180 designed the scheme.

00:53:28.140 No, he was a colonel at the time.

00:53:29.260 Exactly. In the Marine Corps. And he was, he was doing what he was asked to do, whatever,

00:53:33.220 not to get so far afield. So that, but that's just amazing that Epstein was involved in that.

00:53:38.180 So what does he do after that?

00:53:39.740 Well, let me, let me actually just, so let's pause here for a minute. Cause this whole period

00:53:43.900 still, there's a lot to, there's a lot to unpack here. So Robert Maxwell was also one of the

00:53:49.100 main money conduits for Iran-Contra as well. Let's talk about Robert Maxwell. Fascinating

00:53:54.380 guy. Um, really a fascinating guy. Another guy like Epstein that you look at him and you're

00:53:58.940 like, man, he's kind of a, an amoral, you know, beast in a lot of ways, but at the same

00:54:03.960 time, he's a force of nature and a figure out of history who, who figured in history.

00:54:08.940 So he was born in, uh, Czechoslovakia and he was, I want to say he was 18 or 19 years

00:54:14.920 old. He's very, very young when, uh, the Germans invaded and he managed to escape. He

00:54:20.220 wasn't called Robert Maxwell at the time. He changed his name eight or nine times, uh, over

00:54:24.360 the course of the years, but he managed to escape to France in May, 1940, which if you

00:54:30.220 know the story of world war two, it was not the best time to escape to France. And so

00:54:34.080 he, uh, hooks up with what's left of the Czechoslovak resistance there in France and

00:54:38.020 follows the British retreat and manages somehow to talk his way onto a boat and

00:54:42.400 gets over to Britain and, uh, gets hooked up with, uh, with the Czech government in

00:54:48.020 exile there in London becomes disenchanted with, uh, the government in exile pretty

00:54:52.040 quickly and, um, starts, well, yeah, so we'll get to that next part in a minute

00:54:57.720 actually. So then, uh, he's working at first for the Czech government in exile,

00:55:02.600 gets a little disenchanted with them. And so joins the British army and he's a part

00:55:07.840 of the Normandy invasion and he fought, he was in heavy combat all the way to

00:55:12.140 Berlin. Um, you know, uh, he, he won the second highest medal that the British

00:55:17.180 army gives out, not just to foreign volunteers, but to anybody. Um, so it's

00:55:22.240 the distinguished service cross or the Navy cross here in the U S and you know,

00:55:25.700 you don't MC, you don't get those just for, right. Yeah. You don't get those just

00:55:30.060 for, uh, you know, showing up on time every day. Like he got it for storming a

00:55:33.460 machine gun nest and saving a bunch of people's lives, you know? So physically

00:55:37.360 courageous guy, um, obviously very resourceful, ballsy guy, you know, to make it

00:55:41.960 across Europe at such a young age and do all these things. Um, after the war's

00:55:45.900 over and we occupy Germany, he goes to work for British intelligence. Um, first

00:55:50.520 as a translator, I don't know how many languages he spoke back then, but later

00:55:54.020 on, he allegedly was fluent in nine. Maybe that's an exaggeration, but if he was

00:55:58.560 fluent in five and functional in four, that's pretty damn impressive, you know?

00:56:02.960 And so he was a guy who, uh, he had connections behind the iron curtain that was

00:56:08.080 emerging. He's from that side of the line. Uh, he was a soldier who had,

00:56:11.960 fought valiantly for the British. And so now he's working for British

00:56:14.980 intelligence and he's actually pretty valuable to him. And he gets involved

00:56:17.640 in, you know, some dirty work. I mean, he was involved in, uh, interrogating

00:56:22.560 captured SS soldiers, for example, which I imagine those were not always

00:56:26.200 pleasant experiences. Um, actually later on in life, this didn't come out

00:56:29.900 until quite a bit later when he was an older guy, like soon before his death, he

00:56:33.920 was actually fingered in an investigation for murdering a bunch of German

00:56:37.240 unarmed German civilians while he was there. It never went to the point of, uh, you

00:56:41.760 know, having to be proven in court or anything. So it was just something that

00:56:44.580 was out there, but he was, was named in the investigation. And so he's working

00:56:48.740 for British intelligence, uh, for a while there in Berlin, which is a pretty hot

00:56:53.480 assignment, obviously, especially as the iron curtain starting to come down. And, uh,

00:56:57.560 when the war ends, he goes back to Britain. He's changed his name to Robert

00:57:00.540 Maxwell by this point, gets British, British citizenship. And one of the first

00:57:05.320 things we have him doing in the late 1940s after the war, when he gets back to

00:57:09.540 Britain is you have this guy who again is from the other side of the line. He's

00:57:13.460 got, uh, connections with people across Europe. He's involved with British

00:57:17.360 intelligence. Um, and he hooks up with, uh, some like the British Zionist

00:57:23.580 movement and in contravention of, of British law at the time, um, is helping

00:57:29.220 to smuggle weapons, specifically aircraft parts were kind of his main bag

00:57:32.580 through Czechoslovakia down to the Zionist movement in Israel to fight the

00:57:35.760 Arabs. And, um, again, this is still, he's, I think he's probably 25 or

00:57:40.700 something like that at this point, maybe 27, 28 young guy.

00:57:43.660 And not just the Arabs, the British also. Uh, well, right. Yeah.

00:57:46.960 Fighting the British and he's now a British citizen. Just, just saying.

00:57:50.020 There is that. Yeah. You know, that, that whole thing is a little bit of a

00:57:52.860 tangent, but I mean, all that stuff is so interesting because when you think

00:57:55.500 about something like that, right? Like if you have a situation like the

00:57:59.940 Zionists in Palestine in late 1940s who were facing down the possibility of war

00:58:03.880 with several countries around them and you're just a movement that kind of

00:58:07.860 just drove the British out of the country and now you've got to figure out

00:58:10.400 how to hold onto it. And the British were the main people who have any

00:58:15.000 foreign presence, you know, European foreign presence in the region have a

00:58:17.840 weapons embargo against you. You need to get weapons and supplies. How are you

00:58:20.640 going to do it? Well, you need guys like Robert Maxwell, you know, cause not

00:58:24.440 everybody knows how to do it. If they called me on the phone and said, Hey,

00:58:27.000 Daryl, we need to get, you know, we need you to get us, uh, 800 RPGs at this

00:58:32.120 port and blah, blah, blah. I'd be like, uh, okay. So call Robert Maxwell.

00:58:36.280 Don't look at me, you know? And, um, cause you know, who knows? And, uh, but he

00:58:41.220 knew, and that was something he was able to do. Um, Lyndon Johnson did that

00:58:46.100 actually. It was a, there was a really interesting, um, several articles written

00:58:49.380 about it, but one in the times of Israel where they, uh, they, this is a

00:58:53.300 auditory article, you know, they're, they're writing it in a way that, um, is very

00:58:57.460 grateful to Lyndon Johnson, but this is back when he was still in the U S

00:59:00.040 Congress back in the thirties and forties. Um, he was working with a

00:59:03.780 Zionist friend of his there in, in Texas to illegally in contravention of

00:59:08.320 American law, um, as a U S Congressman to ship weapons and other supplies to

00:59:12.760 the Zionists in Palestine and, uh, and in crates marked Texas grapefruit. And

00:59:17.640 the main guy who did the research on this is a, is a Jewish, uh, scholar named

00:59:21.760 Louis Gamalek. And you can't find the paper online. It's, uh, only in the reading

00:59:26.660 room at the Holocaust museum in Washington DC. And, um, fortunately before I came

00:59:31.460 on your show last time I visited the place and went and read it and, uh, you

00:59:36.300 know, they might have somebody tackle me at the door if I tried to go there and do

00:59:38.880 it now. But, um, but I read it and it's fascinating because he really lays out in

00:59:43.660 detail that you really can't deny that Lyndon Johnson was, was involved with this.

00:59:47.540 And so then you.

00:59:48.280 And there's some evidence that Jack Ruby too was involved in that also, which I

00:59:53.060 think.

00:59:53.160 Well, it's, so that's where I was going to go next is you, then you ask, well, how

00:59:57.180 Lyndon Johnson doesn't know how to smuggle the weapons to Palestine. Who knows how to

01:00:01.600 do that kind of thing? Organized crime knows how to do that kind of thing. And so, you

01:00:05.440 know, when you get into any of these kinds of things, this is why I say, you know, the

01:00:08.660 intelligence community and their cousins in the organized crime world, they're, they've

01:00:12.340 always been directly next to each other. They intercession, cross over a hundred percent.

01:00:16.800 And, um, and so Maxwell does this and, uh, as that, you know, as Israel's founded and

01:00:23.940 he kind of starts to just move on as a British citizen, starts to make his way in

01:00:27.060 the world. He starts out, he, he, he creates a small publishing company that

01:00:31.600 specializes basically, basically had a monopoly in, um, getting scientific papers

01:00:37.080 from behind the iron curtain and translating and editing the journals that they would

01:00:41.740 have and the papers they would have in distributing them in the West. And so he starts

01:00:45.300 making a lot of money doing that. He starts expanding out into what became the

01:00:48.920 Maxwell empire where he owned the New York daily news, the daily mirror. I mean, it

01:00:53.020 was a, he was the Rupert Murdoch at the time, right? It was the tabloid King. And he

01:00:57.100 became a billionaire back when billion really, really meant something, you know? Um, he

01:01:01.520 actually became a member of parliament in the 1960s. And so, uh, it was there in the

01:01:06.240 1960s.

01:01:07.200 So just 20 years after he got there.

01:01:09.140 Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. That's extraordinary. Amazing. Honestly. Um, and it was there in the

01:01:15.040 1960s that, um, the, uh, the Mossad representative in Great Britain, like the, the assigned guy

01:01:23.860 at the time was Yitzhak Shamir, who, um, later became the prime minister of Israel in the 1980s,

01:01:29.580 but started his career as, uh, the leader of the Stern gang, very infamous terrorist group

01:01:35.300 that killed a lot of people, um, back in the, in the 1940s, um, carried out the King David

01:01:42.000 hotel bombing along with the Irgun. I mean, killed 91 people, including 15 Jews, which,

01:01:47.620 you know, if, uh, if I was Yitzhak, I'd probably be pretty upset about that part at least, but,

01:01:52.420 um, killed many people, killed, uh, Lord Moyne, a British diplomat in, uh, in Egypt in 1946,

01:01:58.280 sent mail bombs to, uh, several British government officials in Whitehall in, in London there. And

01:02:04.660 actually we have two accounts on this that may be drawing from the same source. And so I don't want

01:02:09.300 to say it with the same, uh, level of certainty, but sent mail bombs to Harry Truman's white house

01:02:13.800 addressed to him. And we got that from a book that was written by, uh, a guy, a fellow who,

01:02:19.460 who ran the white house mail room over the course of like six presidents. And he wrote a memoir about

01:02:23.880 just all the different things that he had seen and everything. And one of the things he mentioned

01:02:27.140 is these mail bombs coming from the Zionist and Palestine addressed to Harry Truman. That, uh,

01:02:32.440 that story was repeated in Harry Truman's daughter's memoir. I don't know if that's coming from,

01:02:37.060 if that's independent or if she's just getting that from the other guy's book. So I, you know,

01:02:41.060 I don't know, but that's two sources that say that. So that's what Yitzhak Shamir was up to.

01:02:45.760 Um, and he goes to Robert Maxwell and he talks to him about his obligations as a Jewish billionaire

01:02:53.700 and, uh, and, uh, important guy with intelligence community connections in foreign countries, the,

01:02:59.180 the obligations that he has to the Jewish state of Israel. And, you know, that can be a, look,

01:03:05.420 it can be, that can be very, very compelling, uh, to, especially to people who are, who are kind

01:03:10.520 of mercenary types like Maxwell and kind of always had been, have been from a very young age, you know,

01:03:16.180 feeling like they're living in a foreign country cause they are. And then, you know, you start to

01:03:20.800 get this appeal of like obligation to, to something really meaningful. You see this a lot. And for

01:03:25.660 example, when I worked for the department of defense, um, obviously everybody's watching this

01:03:30.820 knows that I have a little bit of a troll in me, but usually my trolling has a purpose. And in this

01:03:34.320 case it did, we were doing a, uh, a stand down, like a big training thing in an auditorium, um,

01:03:40.340 on what to look for regarding, uh, insider threats, right? So this is like DOD employees who might

01:03:46.540 possibly be looking to spy or pull classified information out for nefarious purposes or

01:03:51.560 something. And they're going through as part of the training, all of these actual cases that happened

01:03:56.480 over the years. And out of the nine or 10 that they showed us, you know, there's one or two where

01:04:02.740 the guy just had a gambling addiction and he needed money and he just didn't care. And he was

01:04:06.780 going to do it. But literally like the other eight or nine, 90% of all the ones they showed us were

01:04:11.680 Chinese guys, Chinese Americans spying for China, Russian Americans spying for Russia is a Jewish

01:04:18.440 American spying for Israel. And all of them pretty much, this was just a pattern and nobody was

01:04:23.400 talking about it. The trainers weren't talking by, they were just pretending like it didn't exist.

01:04:26.960 And so leave it to me. I raised my hand at the end when they took questions and I brought that fact up.

01:04:31.560 I was like, what are we supposed to exactly do with that information? And to the guy's credit,

01:04:35.700 he was honest. He didn't try to blow smoke up me or anything. He just said, uh, you're not to look

01:04:40.220 at that at all. Like, that's not something we consider. And I said, okay. Um, everybody kind of,

01:04:46.380 you know, looked around like, all right, that's just, uh, how it is. Um, but you know, the reason

01:04:52.520 that that pattern existed in the first place is that just, it can be very powerful. Not everybody's

01:04:56.940 going to respond to it. Most people of any ethnicity are loyal to the country they live

01:05:00.360 in, but you can find people with buttons to push, you know? And, um, and Robert Maxwell

01:05:05.520 was one of those people. And so Yitzhak Shamir recruited him and he became from that point

01:05:09.400 on a very committed Zionist and asset to Israeli intelligence. Now, again, with Maxwell, just

01:05:17.240 like when we talk about a lot of these other people, when I say he was an asset of Israeli

01:05:20.460 intelligence, that doesn't mean he was on the payroll of Mossad. You know, he didn't have

01:05:24.220 a rank in the Israeli intelligence, uh, community or something. He was a freelancer. He was a

01:05:29.620 guy who was almost, uh, and he looked at himself this way. He was almost like a, like a sovereign

01:05:35.460 himself. You know, he was, uh, not really like kind of a member of any country exactly. He was

01:05:42.060 like this free floating sovereign entity that would work between the nation states and in

01:05:46.840 the world. And that's very often what he did. So for example, you know, um, and this, this

01:05:51.300 actually, uh, is a, is an actual example when, um, the Israeli government wanted to meet with

01:05:57.040 the, uh, the heads of the KGB in the 1980s. Um, you can't exactly, I mean, without raising

01:06:04.820 a ruckus or having it be a thing, you can't put the head of the Mossad on a plane and send

01:06:08.400 them to Moscow to go meet with the head of the KGB. And so they would talk to Robert Maxwell,

01:06:13.020 Robert Maxwell would go talk to them and he'd be, you know, the kind of go between and, and,

01:06:17.300 uh, and that deal maker and fixer. Very common. Right. And, and, and, you know, I imagine you

01:06:22.060 probably need those people if you're going to do these kinds of things. And so, um, and

01:06:25.500 so that's the kind of thing that he would do, you know, he, um, sometime, you know, so there,

01:06:30.560 there are, I would say allegations that are pretty well substantiated at this point that,

01:06:36.140 um, one of the things he would do was act as essentially like a, a slush fund for Israeli

01:06:42.580 intelligence, uh, black ops. And the way that it would work is, you know, he would reach into his

01:06:49.600 company's pension funds, for example, pull some money out that they could then go use to pull off

01:06:54.880 an operation. And then, you know, six months here, a year there down the line, they figure out ways to

01:07:00.520 get the money back to him and they kind of replenish it. A former Israeli intelligence officer named Ari

01:07:05.680 Ben-Menashe. He's a very controversial, but interesting figure. Um, we'll talk about him

01:07:11.960 more in a little bit because he comes a lot into the Epstein story too. Um, he and Victor Ostrovsky,

01:07:16.980 who's another, uh, Mossad, uh, former Mossad official who wrote, who wrote a book about his

01:07:21.340 experiences after he got kind of jammed up by them and blamed for some things. Um, they both say

01:07:27.300 that Maxwell, what happened, talk about him being murdered is that, you know, once you start

01:07:32.960 reaching into your company's pension fund to help out Israeli intelligence, like, wow,

01:07:37.500 I can do it for this personal reason too. You know, I'll pay it back. I'll always pay it back,

01:07:41.800 of course. And he starts doing that and he gets himself into a lot of trouble. And by the end of

01:07:46.740 his life, um, he was going to be, I mean, his empire was going to be brought down. He was going to be

01:07:51.080 bankrupt and probably going to prison. I mean, he had robbed his company's pension fund blind for years

01:07:56.500 at this point. And it was all getting to the point where it was just no longer solvent. It couldn't be

01:08:00.600 hidden anymore. And what Ben Menashe says is that he went to his friends in the Mossad and he told

01:08:06.980 them, look, I've done all this for you over the years. I have done so much for you. You are going

01:08:11.240 to get me out of this somehow, one way or another, whether you give me the money, whether you deal

01:08:15.820 with the issue in Britain, you're going to get me out of this. And he got a little too aggressive

01:08:18.920 about it, Ben Menashe says. And, uh, you know, shortly after that, they found him floating off of his

01:08:24.780 yacht near the Canary Islands. Um, and there was a satellite, uh, photo,

01:08:30.180 I don't know if it was ever introduced in court, but I, I believe this is true. A satellite photo

01:08:34.600 taken, um, that showed a boat with, you know, the, the, the belief is that the boat was boarded by

01:08:42.840 some group that threw him off and he had injuries. Three different doctors couldn't agree on the

01:08:49.040 cause of death. Right. And yeah, not a drowning and he had injuries consistent to a shoulder

01:08:53.240 consistent with a struggle. He was a big guy. He would have fought. Yeah. Um, but see there,

01:08:58.300 there's actually, so another thing happened right before that too is, uh, for years, people had

01:09:03.260 speculated and, um, and, and presented, you know, little evidence here and there that he was associated

01:09:08.460 with Israeli intelligence, but in, uh, just right before he died, I think it was in 88, um, right

01:09:14.760 before he died, uh, Seymour Hirsch went on the record with three, I think four independent, uh, sources

01:09:20.380 that all fingered Maxwell and his number one in his media empire as agents of Israeli intelligence,

01:09:28.680 as active agents of Israeli intelligence. And two weeks later is when he was found dead.

01:09:32.920 And it was, then it was after that, that a lot of the financial stuff, the problems that he had

01:09:36.480 came out. And there was a five-year lawsuit, five, five-year case against his two sons.

01:09:40.860 Yeah. And they actually brought a lawsuit against Seymour Hirsch for defamation and lost. And not only

01:09:45.820 did they lose, they had to pay all of Hirsch's legal fees and pay him out for suing him. So,

01:09:51.400 um, you know, I, the, the idea of Robert Maxwell being, um, an Israeli intelligence agent is

01:09:57.360 as well substantiated as anything gets in that world. Right. Yeah. I think he received a state

01:10:01.940 funeral in Israel. He certainly buried that. Well, that's no, actually this is the fun part too.

01:10:05.140 So you have this British citizen, um, who has no connection to Israeli intelligence at all. No,

01:10:09.500 nothing. He just, uh, is a British guy who's never lived in Israel. Um, he gets a state funeral

01:10:14.600 that's attended by every living Israeli prime minister, intelligence agency head, and the

01:10:19.180 president, uh, the president and the prime minister, Yitzhak Shamir actually, um, gave his eulogies.

01:10:25.080 And Yitzhak Shamir said that this man has done more for the state of Israel than can now be told.

01:10:29.580 And he was given, uh, a burial plot on the Mount of Olives facing the Western wall, which is

01:10:35.080 reserved for, it's the highest honor, you know, that you can, that you can bestow, uh, when it comes to

01:10:41.320 that kind of thing. And so clearly this was a guy who was very important to a lot of people,

01:10:45.360 uh, over there. And he was, it was because he was a very important intelligence.

01:10:49.680 So what was his, I, yeah, I don't think that's conscious. It's funny. As time goes by,

01:10:53.620 people start claiming that certain substantiated facts are not facts and no one kind of remembers

01:11:01.680 that. No, actually that's been proven. Um, anyway, what was his connection to Jeffrey Epstein?

01:11:07.220 How does Jeffrey Epstein wind up in an orbit of a guy like that? Douglas lease introduced him.

01:11:11.900 And so, uh, and, and, uh, according to multiple sources, um, from Israeli and, uh, U S intelligence

01:11:18.100 circles that have gone on the record to, uh, to journalists like Vicki Ward, uh, both of them

01:11:24.080 were involved in the weapons deals and things that we're talking about in the 1980s. You know,

01:11:28.260 Maxwell would be the guy who like his pension fund would be used as a slush fund, for example,

01:11:33.640 the conduit, uh, to move money through Epstein would be a guy who made sure that it moved around

01:11:39.020 in ways that couldn't easily be traced. And so they worked together with, uh, with intelligence

01:11:44.300 on, on, on these operations. And so, uh, Robert is the one who introduced him to his daughter.

01:11:50.380 That's a, you know, not something a father really wants to do. Introduce your daughter to a guy like

01:11:55.140 Jeffrey Epstein, but maybe she had problems of her own. I don't know. He introduces her. And so just

01:11:59.520 to add that to add another zero to the odds of all of these connections kind of piling up,

01:12:04.860 right? Known 100% locked in Israeli intelligent agent for decades, Robert Maxwell, his daughter

01:12:12.560 just happens to be, you know, Jeffrey Epstein's partner in crime. Um, and, and, you know, you,

01:12:18.200 have you seen that famous picture of Prince Andrew with Virginia Roberts? She's a teenager.

01:12:24.240 That's in Robert Maxwell's house in England that that, that picture was taken. So, um,

01:12:29.520 you know, they were, they were close and obviously, you know, and, um, is the funny

01:12:34.080 thing actually when Vicki Ward interviewed, um, when he interviewed, when she interviewed

01:12:39.780 Jeffrey Epstein in 2002, we'll get to her whole interview in 2002, which is really interesting

01:12:44.800 because it was in 2002. Nobody knew who Jeffrey Epstein was. None of these conspiracy theories

01:12:49.420 were out there, anything like that. And she's got all kinds of stuff we'll talk about here in a

01:12:53.720 second. But he said, uh, Robert, he just total ignorance. Robert Maxwell doesn't ring a bell.

01:12:59.500 Don't know him at all. And they were incredibly close. She didn't really, it wasn't the point

01:13:04.620 of her story. So she didn't really pursue it too much. He also, uh, um, was asked by her about his

01:13:11.240 relationship to Douglas lease. And he claimed not to know Douglas lease when Douglas lease,

01:13:15.820 his own son, Julian, he said that, that his father was essentially for many years, he used

01:13:21.920 the word a mentor to Jeffrey Epstein of sorts. And so, um, and he expressed disbelief that Epstein

01:13:27.500 would have claimed not to know him. I mean, so, you know, you have, uh, these connections

01:13:31.580 that Epstein denies, which again, if they were innocent connections, you know, um, that he, he

01:13:36.980 probably wouldn't have a reason to do that. All of these intelligence connections that, uh, with

01:13:41.120 people who were, you know, again, like you take the Donald Barr one, for example, okay, he worked

01:13:46.120 for the OSS in world war two. Great. I don't know. Maybe he, you know, maybe it's a once, uh,

01:13:51.260 intelligence guy, always an intelligence guy. And he was still, but I don't know. All I have is that

01:13:55.280 he worked for the OSS. And so maybe that's all in the past has nothing to do with it, but all these

01:14:00.160 other guys, these are people who were not only active, but absolutely central to the most high

01:14:06.980 profile operations that were going on in the 1980s. And Jeffrey Epstein is right there in the middle of

01:14:12.940 all of them. And they all seem to think that he's pretty damn important. You know, um, Robert

01:14:18.480 Maxwell pimps out his daughter to him. Uh, you know, I don't maybe want to put it too harshly,

01:14:24.260 but when you give your daughter to a guy like Epstein, what do you say about it? Um, you know,

01:14:28.600 guys like Heshogi and Douglas lease, who was his mentor. I mean, these are guys who were right in the

01:14:32.760 middle of the most high profile operations going on at the time. So how does Epstein, does he get rich

01:14:38.820 from doing this stuff? Cause at the center of the story or the enduring mystery, from my

01:14:42.440 perspective, there are a couple, but one is where did all the money come from? How did he get

01:14:46.260 rich? So one of the people that Vicki Ward interviewed in 2002, none of which made it into

01:14:50.940 her story. Vicki Ward was a Vanity Fair reporter. At the time she was writing for Vanity Fair. Yeah.

01:14:55.000 She, she wrote for Rolling Stone later. And the whole story of the publication of her story,

01:14:59.960 Vanity Fair is a lot of fun. So we'll talk about that. Um, one of the, one of the people that she

01:15:05.080 interviewed was a guy that Jeffrey Epstein had helped send to jail, a guy named Steven

01:15:09.200 Hoffenberg who ran a company called Towers Financial. It was engaged in, uh, a Ponzi scheme.

01:15:16.020 Um, they, I think, you know, it was a $450 million Ponzi scheme, robbed a lot of people of a lot of

01:15:21.100 money. Um, Hoffenberg doesn't deny it. He took responsibility for it at the time, you know,

01:15:26.080 pled guilty, did his time and he's open about all of it. Now calls himself greedy and just all these

01:15:31.760 things. Um, well, he gets a call from Douglas lease and says, Hey, I got a guy who can help you out

01:15:37.120 because he knew lease. And he puts him in touch with Jeffrey Epstein and Epstein, he said, is just

01:15:43.180 the kind of guy that a business, like a quote unquote business, like the one I'm running,

01:15:46.900 this Ponzi scheme is looking for. It's a guy who's very intelligent, who knows a lot about the

01:15:51.880 offshore accounting and things that we need to know about. And he has no moral compass whatsoever.

01:15:56.780 Hoffenberg said, and it's what he told, uh, Ward at the time. And so one of some of the other

01:16:01.700 things that he said is he said that, uh, what Epstein would do, and he did this to Hoffenberg

01:16:06.960 himself eventually, um, is the people that they would be moving money around for, they would take

01:16:13.760 some of that for themselves. And Epstein had a scheme that he called playing the box, which I

01:16:19.800 don't know where the name exactly comes from, but what it entailed is stealing money from people and

01:16:23.920 making sure that you have compromising information on them so that even if they catch you doing it,

01:16:27.880 they're going to be too embarrassed or too afraid to actually come out and go after you.

01:16:32.240 And so given what we know about Epstein's proclivities and his later activities, you can

01:16:37.840 probably guess what some of that, uh, those activities were. Right. And, um, this is what

01:16:43.740 Hoffenberg said he would do. He, he said that Jeffrey Epstein, uh, you know, well, so he confirms

01:16:49.180 the, uh, the, the, the story of Epstein being attached to Douglas lease, first of all, cause he knew

01:16:54.620 lease and that's how they met. Um, and he says that Epstein used to talk quite openly about,

01:16:59.060 um, his connections and dealings with the intelligence community, not just in the U S but

01:17:04.760 in Israel as well. And again, none of this made it into the story because this is 2002 Vicki

01:17:09.340 Ward's just like Douglas who, but it doesn't really, she didn't know who these people were

01:17:14.480 and she was trying to invest. I mean, she had on the record witnesses accusing Jeffrey Epstein

01:17:19.400 of sexual assault, like, you know, underage girls. That's what she was interested in. So all this

01:17:23.760 other stuff, she doesn't even know what he's talking about at the time, but she kept all her

01:17:27.040 notes and everything. And once it kind of came out later, she brought all that out into the public.

01:17:31.920 Um, so, uh, yeah, the story of here's, here's a fun one. So in Vicki Ward tells this story, but

01:17:38.440 there, I mean, there was even an NPR report, a radio report about this, uh, several years ago in

01:17:44.360 the Epstein thing was coming out, um, where they have people who are working at vanity fair, one of the

01:17:49.040 senior editors and an audio interview talk, telling the story. Um, she's working, she's running down

01:17:54.580 this story and she's got three on the record witnesses, two sisters, but then one totally

01:17:59.300 independent telling the same story about Jeffrey Epstein. He sexually assaulted them. And, um,

01:18:04.480 she's writing up this story, but I started out as like a profile piece, like that's all. And then

01:18:08.220 this stuff came out through the course of her reporting. And, um, she, uh, is pursuing this story.

01:18:15.420 And all of a sudden, um, one day she, uh, she, she gets her interview with Jeffrey Epstein and she

01:18:21.400 asks him about the girls and he gets really, really upset, threatens her personally, threatens

01:18:26.560 her, like says, I'm not coming after the magazine. If you print this, I'm coming after you because my

01:18:31.240 relationship here is with you. Don't do this to yourself. Don't do this to your family. It's not

01:18:36.020 worth it. Whoa. And so she says, well, you know, does what a reporter is supposed to do. I suppose,

01:18:41.120 you know, you're not going to push me around like that and you don't know who this guy is.

01:18:44.940 And so he's just some rich guy who's trying to threaten you or something. And so, um, she writes

01:18:49.200 up the story and it goes through legal and legal looks at it. You got three on the record witnesses,

01:18:54.340 uh, corroborating each other's stories, uh, gets through legal. And then right before it goes to

01:19:00.760 press, Graydon Carter, who was running Vanity Fair at the time, he puts the kibosh on that part of the

01:19:06.880 story. He just takes it out without even telling Vicki Ward has all of that stuff removed. And it's just a,

01:19:11.580 it's just a profile piece about Jeffrey Epstein, this international.

01:19:14.320 Minus the sexual assault allegations.

01:19:15.980 Correct. And so, uh, the stories though, where it gets really interesting. And again,

01:19:20.680 this is told by not just war, but by a bunch of people who worked there at the time was the talk

01:19:24.640 of the office at the time. They said, um, he, uh, he comes into his office one day. He's the first

01:19:31.240 person in the office. Graydon Carter's office within the larger complex is locked, but Jeffrey

01:19:37.320 Epstein's already in there. He's the first person in and he's waiting for him. And he berates him

01:19:42.540 and threatens him and tells him, you know, he better not print this. And a short time later,

01:19:47.560 uh, he, uh, Graydon Carter leaves his house in New York city and he finds a bullet on his stoop.

01:19:57.400 And then a little while later at his country house upstate, he finds a severed cat's head

01:20:02.320 on the porch there. And according to the senior editor and a lot of people at Vanity Fair,

01:20:08.080 Graydon Carter and everybody in the office knew exactly what this was. This was,

01:20:11.700 these were threats from Jeffrey Epstein and Graydon Carter acts the story because of that.

01:20:16.280 And so, you know, you have to think like Vanity Fair, they've probably been threatened legally by

01:20:23.360 people before who they're writing, you know, exposes on every month. Yeah. And so to intimidate

01:20:28.840 somebody like that and a magazine like that into doing that was such direct and overt threats.

01:20:34.640 You know, you look at it and you're like, man, what kind of confidence and hubris did this guy

01:20:38.220 have that he felt confident doing? You know, the biggest magazine publisher in the country at the

01:20:43.400 time, most important published the New Yorker, like big, big deal place, but it worked and it

01:20:48.500 got axed. And probably because of that, a lot more girls got sexually assaulted over the next several

01:20:52.640 years, you know? So how did, so by the time Vicki Ward is interviewing Epstein in 2002, you know,

01:21:00.240 Vanity Fair at the time was like basically the in-house publication for the ruling class,

01:21:05.680 like, you know, the emerging ruling class anyway. He's a rich guy. How did, how did he get rich?

01:21:13.760 I'm confused. Yeah. I mean, so to go back to Hoffenberg and Towers Financial, for example,

01:21:19.260 Hoffenberg was running this Ponzi scheme with, with Epstein. Vicki Ward has a source in the Justice

01:21:26.740 Department who worked the case at the time, who told her about Epstein cooperating with the

01:21:31.680 government against Hoffenberg and said that if it had gone to trial for Epstein, it would have gone

01:21:36.240 worse for him than it did for Hoffenberg. Like he had more fingerprints and was deep, more deeply

01:21:40.300 involved with the scheme than even Hoffenberg was. But what he had done was he had taken a hundred

01:21:44.740 million dollars from Hoffenberg and from the company and hidden it offshore and then went to the

01:21:50.640 authorities and cooperated with them to get Hoffenberg thrown in jail. And since Hoffenberg had

01:21:55.060 pled guilty, there was no discovery or anything like that. And he just went away for 18 years.

01:21:59.020 He's in Jeffrey Epstein. He did 18 years. 18 years. Yeah. Yeah. Jeffrey Epstein for, uh, with,

01:22:05.060 with 40 on the record witnesses accusing him of sexual assault in 2008, got 13 months and not even

01:22:12.120 full-time detention. Yeah. Well, um, yeah, let's talk about that. I mean this, so we just, I just want

01:22:18.240 to linger for a second on the money. Yeah. So it's been reported repeatedly that there's a guy called

01:22:22.500 Leslie Les Wexner, biggest owner of the biggest house in Ohio. Who is Wexner and what is his

01:22:30.720 relationship to Epstein? And before you begin, because I want people to keep this in mind as

01:22:35.660 they're listening, as far as I know, and I think this is correct, Wexner, who I believe is still

01:22:40.880 alive, has never been interviewed by the Department of Justice. So I just want to throw that out there.

01:22:46.280 Yeah. That's correct. As far as I know. Um, so Les Wexner, he owned, uh, owns limited brands,

01:22:53.060 L brands. So, uh, Victoria's Secret, he owns Abercrombie and Fitch, a lot of the places that

01:22:58.260 you see when you go into the mall. Um, I don't think it's the case anymore, but for a long time,

01:23:02.280 he was the largest clothing manufacturer and distributor in the United States, billionaire,

01:23:06.260 incredibly wealthy, wealthy guy. Um, as you said, owns the largest and most expensive house in the

01:23:11.340 state of Ohio, where he lives in Columbus. And, uh, the second largest and most expensive house in

01:23:16.740 the state of Ohio was owned by Jeffrey Epstein and was directly behind Wexner's house. What? Yeah.

01:23:21.840 So, um, Wexner, uh, he was introduced to Wexner, um, through, you know, this network of people and

01:23:28.520 very, very quickly, uh, becomes, I mean, the nature of their relationship is still kind of a mystery

01:23:36.200 because it's so hard to explain in any, in any terms that you can really draw a plausible story

01:23:42.600 for within a very short period of time. You know, this guy, you know, this Epstein guy, like two

01:23:46.660 years, right? And not because he had, he had worked at his company for those two years and was so

01:23:53.140 squared away, anything like that. We don't exactly know what he was doing during those two years,

01:23:56.180 but he knew him two years when he signed full power of attorney over his entire estate,

01:24:01.200 Les Wexner, talking billions of dollars, the largest clothing manufacturing corporation

01:24:05.540 in the country, uh, or, or a company in the country, um, to the point where this was not a

01:24:12.180 limited power of attorney. Jeffrey Epstein could sign. Wait, he gives Jeffrey Epstein power of

01:24:16.580 attorney over everything? Jeffrey Epstein could take out loans in his name. He could sign his tax

01:24:21.200 returns. He had full power of attorney over the Wexner estate. Uh, soon after that, Wexner's mother

01:24:28.960 gets sick and, uh, her spot on the, uh, Wexner foundation board, which is how Wexner disposed of

01:24:36.360 most of his money, um, opens up. He puts, he puts, uh, Jeffrey Epstein on there and he basically runs

01:24:42.180 the board of the foundation for about 15 years, controlling a lot of where that money went and

01:24:46.760 what 15 years. Yeah. And Wexner alleged this was way later on, um, after everything had kind of come

01:24:52.980 out. So who kind of knows, you know, people, you're kind of, everybody's kind of trying to

01:24:56.220 distance themselves from Epstein at this point, but he says that Epstein stole a lot of money from

01:25:01.440 him through his, you know, control over the foundation. Everything probably did for all I

01:25:05.520 know, but, um, you know, we can be, I just, I just, I'm shocked to learn. And I am learning this,

01:25:12.780 that Jeffrey, you're positive. Jeffrey Epstein had power of attorney. Yes. Over. You can, yeah,

01:25:18.580 you can read that, read that anywhere. Yeah. For 16 years, by the way, for 16 years. And so

01:25:24.440 what has Wexner ever been asked? Why would you give, I don't even think he's forget the

01:25:28.760 department of justice. I don't think he's given any interviews to journalists about it. Maybe

01:25:31.880 he'll come on here and sit in my seat and talk to you. I kind of doubt it. I would be polite. I'm

01:25:35.860 genuinely fascinated, um, by that detail because that is, you know, a man who builds like all of

01:25:41.820 these characters, you know, they're unusual people. They're not average people. They're

01:25:45.180 extraordinary people by definition. You build a billion dollar company,

01:25:48.200 good or bad. You're not like everybody else and you're good. You're good in business and

01:25:51.840 you're careful and judicious and you don't hand power of attorney over to some guy you've never

01:25:57.920 worked with. Especially he had his own executives, people who've worked for him for decades coming

01:26:03.800 to him, being like, boss, who is this guy? Like, what are you, what are you doing? Why are you

01:26:07.400 giving him so much authority and power? There was a guy that Wexner had known for decades. They'd go

01:26:11.680 to Ohio state football games together. They do dinners together. They were good friends. And he tells

01:26:16.700 this story about how, uh, Jeffrey Epstein comes into the, into the picture and he's going to meet

01:26:22.280 him for the first time. Epstein goes over to his office and, uh, Epstein shows up like an hour late

01:26:27.680 for the meeting and he gets there. And the first thing he does when he sits down in his chair,

01:26:32.180 and I mean, this is just one of those things that this isn't a faux pas. This is a message.

01:26:36.720 He sits down in the chair at this important businessman. It's a good friend of his boss or whatever

01:26:41.400 he was, less Wexner. He sits down in the chair and he kicks his feet up on the, on the guy's desk.

01:26:46.140 I was like, okay, that's interesting. You know, this guy's not, uh, Wexner's secretary,

01:26:50.940 apparently quite a power move. Yeah. And so, um, Wexner there in that meeting gets on the phone with

01:26:56.680 both of the guys and he tells his friend, uh, you know, Jeffrey's family, treat him like,

01:27:01.380 treat him like family, you know? And so eventually a little later down the line, that guy has a

01:27:06.420 disagreement with Epstein and they get into an argument about something. And from that moment on,

01:27:10.720 he says he couldn't, he couldn't reach Wexner by phone. He got cut off immediately, completely with

01:27:18.020 no explanation. This guy had known him for decades because he had a tiff with Jeffrey Epstein.

01:27:22.700 And so this guy clearly had either some kind of a powerful hold over Wexner for one reason or

01:27:28.300 another. By definition, we can say that. Or they were working together in some other way. So Wexner's

01:27:33.500 another one of these interesting cats, right? Like where his mentor was, uh, a real estate guy mainly,

01:27:40.380 but he did a lot of things named Max Fisher. And, uh, I think he was originally from Indiana, Max

01:27:45.980 Fisher, but, uh, lived in Ohio, I believe. But anyway, either way, he was, he was Wexner's mentor

01:27:51.540 for a while, not his mentor. Like when he was just getting started, Wexner's already rich by this

01:27:55.880 point. It's not about that. Fisher's, uh, his, his big main thing was, uh, philanthropic, uh,

01:28:03.180 contributions and management for, uh, Jewish and Zionist and state of Israel related causes.

01:28:08.580 Right. And so when you look at like what the Wexner foundation did, for example, they would

01:28:13.180 give a little bit of money to Ohio state university here and there, and like a few other things

01:28:16.840 locally there in Columbus and around the state of Ohio. But the vast, vast, vast majority of it went

01:28:21.320 to Zionist organizations, Jewish organizations, things like that, which, you know, fine. Um,

01:28:26.540 um, Fisher's the guy that sort of, that sort of did what Yitzhak Shamir did with Robert Maxwell,

01:28:32.640 but for less Wexner, you know, you go to him and you say, you've got an obligation here to the

01:28:37.580 Jewish state. You're a Jewish billionaire. You know, you're a big, important person in the most

01:28:40.800 powerful country in the world. Like you have an obligation to your people. And again, it's a

01:28:44.320 powerful call. And so it really came to, in a lot of ways to find Wexner's life after that.

01:28:49.620 And so, um, in the 1990s, this is a, this was in the newspapers and stuff during the Clinton

01:28:56.160 administration. Really, uh, really interesting. Um, Les Wexner and Edgar Bronfman, which, uh,

01:29:06.320 if that name sounds familiar, it's cause I mentioned, sorry, I want to just pause. I was

01:29:10.600 just handed this to some extent. Um, this is from the president of the United States released

01:29:17.040 on true social just now, based on the ridiculous amount of publicity I'm quoting given to Jeffrey

01:29:21.560 Epstein. I have asked attorney general Pam Bondi to produce any and all pertinent grand

01:29:26.080 jury testimony subject to court approval. The scam, all caps perpetrated by Democrats comma

01:29:31.960 should end comma right now, exclamation point. All right. Shut the cameras off guys. We're

01:29:37.440 done here. Well, I still think, okay, that's pretty good. I would, uh, you know, I have no

01:29:43.500 idea where this leads. If anywhere, I certainly hope it leads to greater disclosure. That's good

01:29:47.560 for everyone, including the president. And it's good for everyone. Disclosure is good, but

01:29:52.940 it doesn't change in my opinion, the need for anyone who's interested in the story to

01:29:59.340 know what the story actually is. So I hope you will continue. Yeah. So, um, in the 1990s

01:30:04.200 Wexner and Edgar Bronfman, who I mentioned earlier, one of the heirs to the Seagram's liquor fortune,

01:30:09.100 who was one of Jeffrey Epstein's clients when he was, uh, working at Bear Stearns. Um, those

01:30:15.900 two guys founded a group called the study group, but it's more, uh, commonly known as the mega

01:30:21.040 group, um, that came out in the papers a little bit in the late 1990s. Not a lot was written

01:30:25.980 about it as a group of at first about 20, but then later it expanded Jewish billionaires

01:30:30.520 in the United States and Canada who would meet at least twice a year to get together and just

01:30:34.980 coordinate how they were, um, distributing their philanthropic money, what their focuses

01:30:41.560 were for that year. Um, just making sure they were all acting in concert to help serve the

01:30:46.080 interests of Israel in their respective countries. Uh, they would, um, they would finance, uh,

01:30:51.260 scholars and other, uh, professionals to write up papers and studies and analyses for the Israeli

01:30:56.700 government, for Israeli intelligence, for example. And they were very plugged into that

01:31:00.360 and, um, very, very, very connected to the Israeli government and specifically Israeli intelligence

01:31:06.500 through the work that they would do for, you know, for, for the Israelis. And, um, it, uh,

01:31:13.240 so, you know, again, just one more sort of connection there to the intelligence world

01:31:17.340 among people who are very, very, very close to, to Jeffrey Epstein. Um, now, you know, we,

01:31:23.880 you've watched the Netflix documentary or anything about Jeffrey Epstein. One of the things that

01:31:28.000 really does stick out to you is this guy, okay, there's rich and then there's rich and Jeffrey

01:31:35.080 Epstein was rich. I mean, apparently, right. This is a guy who, he certainly lived like it. He had

01:31:40.620 the second law. I mean, when you see the, the pictures of this place he lived in in Ohio,

01:31:44.920 the pictures of this ranch he lived on in New Mexico, he had a $70 million house in the largest

01:31:52.480 private residence, I believe in, uh, in New York's area in Manhattan. How did he buy that house?

01:31:57.320 Les Wexner gave it to him. Lex Wexner gave him a $70 million house. Yeah. I don't think it was worth

01:32:03.580 $70 million at the time, but when he got arrested, it was, yeah. Yeah. Gave it to him. Worth more now.

01:32:08.060 Probably. Yeah. Can I, I mean, and no one's ever asked Lex, Les Wexner, why did you sign over

01:32:14.500 power of attorney over your whole life and give among other things, a $70 million property,

01:32:19.200 the biggest private residence in Manhattan to Jeffrey Epstein? No one.

01:32:22.380 I mean, I don't think, uh, I don't think he's given anybody the opportunity. You know, he had that,

01:32:26.900 um, he had that big Island in, you know, everybody's seen the picture of the temple on the Island,

01:32:30.800 but that's just one little part of it. I mean, it's a, it's a much, I mean, it was 60,

01:32:34.520 80 acre Island, something like that. Big, beautiful mansion, several outbuildings,

01:32:39.120 that crazy temple. He had a fleet of airplanes and not, uh, just a Learjet or something like

01:32:43.860 that. He had a customized seven 27. So basically his own air force one, he was flying around in,

01:32:49.340 you know, um, he had a, he had a mansion in Paris. He had, he actually owned a second

01:32:54.640 us Virgin Island down there as well. I mean, so this is a dude who is Elon Musk doesn't live this

01:33:01.520 way. He probably could, but he doesn't. Not even close. Not even close. No, Elon sleeps on

01:33:05.600 people's couches. Right. And so if you take the, uh, the official story, which is that he was a

01:33:10.360 money manager of some kind, the only client that we know of was Les Wexner, but, um, what he exactly

01:33:16.500 even did for Wexner, nobody's really able to, uh, to describe. And so the official story is he's a

01:33:22.800 money manager, right? Is there any, so it's hard to manage money in a country whose financial

01:33:28.860 systems are as regulated as ours are anonymously? So if you're actually managing money, certainly

01:33:34.880 if you're conducting trades, there's a record. And in some capacities you have to register.

01:33:40.080 Yeah. Is there any documentary evidence that Jeffrey Epstein was in any recognizable sense

01:33:47.020 of money manager? Not only is there no documentary evidence, um, you know, people who have to

01:33:52.180 understand how, you know, what the regulatory environment is one reason that it's really

01:33:55.980 hard to do any of this kind of thing on that scale under the radar, but also just on a personal

01:34:01.260 network level, like in wall street and places like that. Like if you're a guy, so Jeffrey

01:34:05.140 Epstein back in the 1980s, he claims the claim was at the time, even not just now, it's not

01:34:11.660 something he came up with later that he was a money manager who only took accounts of a billion

01:34:16.620 dollars or more. So you didn't just have to be a billionaire. You had to have a billion

01:34:20.120 dollars to invest with him. Right. And a guy who knew him back then thought he would do Epstein a

01:34:26.580 solid. And he brought him a client who had $600 million. He wanted to invest with Epstein.

01:34:32.280 This is 1980s money. It's like $2 billion today, like inflation adjusted, right? You show up with

01:34:37.700 that kind of money to Goldman Sachs and the CEO is going to meet you at the front door and take you

01:34:44.280 up his private elevator and the company's vice presidents are going to give you a presentation

01:34:48.900 about all the people that are going to be dedicated. Yeah. And a foot massage. All that

01:34:52.100 kind of stuff. Of course. Yes. Like the big, biggest investment banks in the world are going

01:34:56.420 to audition for you. You don't audition for them. You know what I mean? Like if you have that kind

01:35:00.200 of money. Epstein blew the guy off. He said, oh no, it's too small. I'm not, I don't, I don't deal

01:35:04.100 with that kind of pocket change. You know, 600 million today, $2 billion. And so you say, well,

01:35:08.820 that's obviously ridiculous. Obviously there is no fund manager in the world that would do that. And so

01:35:14.080 why would he do that? And I think when you look at the whole record, the answer is obviously

01:35:19.300 he wasn't a money manager, you know, people didn't actually invest people's money. Yeah.

01:35:22.440 People think like a, uh, you know, a hedge fund is like a dude sitting at his, at his desktop

01:35:27.320 computer, like on E-Trade or something. Hedge funds have teams of analysts and mathematicians

01:35:31.880 and it's a whole big business, you know, and like people need to understand that. So nobody's

01:35:35.860 ever, nobody knows anybody who's ever worked for Epstein in this capacity. Um, nobody's ever,

01:35:40.920 I mean, look, when you're operating at that level, if he was who he says he was moving

01:35:45.300 that kind of money around, you know, you don't go buy shares in Microsoft, you know, you take

01:35:51.360 a position in the company, you know, this is, these are, these are things that are done through

01:35:55.580 large institutions and, you know, you have to have, uh, institutional support so that they

01:36:00.920 can, uh, gather up enough shares for you to purchase and then structure the purchases in

01:36:05.800 a way that it doesn't just suck all the liquidity out of the market and, and, and, you know,

01:36:10.140 drive the market crazy on the stock price for a little while. This is a complex operation.

01:36:14.400 There's a lot of people involved. Nobody has even, nobody has heard of anybody who's heard

01:36:18.380 of anybody who's ever done any kind of deal with Epstein.

01:36:21.160 And there's no record of anything.

01:36:22.200 No, nothing.

01:36:22.880 Him investing money, trading stocks, nothing.

01:36:25.000 Which is just impossible. I mean, it's just, it's flat out impossible that he was doing what

01:36:29.420 the official story says he was doing and there's just no trace of it. It's not possible.

01:36:33.720 So once again, where'd the money come from?

01:36:36.140 Well, clearly some of it came from Les Wexner. We don't, I'm summarizing what I think you've

01:36:40.800 said. We have no idea why Wexner gave him all this power and money. We have no idea.

01:36:46.960 Not any, we don't have hard evidence on it. You know, some people have suggested blackmail

01:36:50.940 because of the things that have come out about Epstein, but we don't have any thing like

01:36:54.600 that. There are people who were in the Wexner circle back in those days when Epstein was around

01:36:59.480 and, um, they've claimed that Epstein was known kind of around the office as the boyfriend,

01:37:03.920 but that's just an allegation. Nobody has any hard information on that. And both of the guys,

01:37:08.880 Epstein was asked about it under oath and Wexner, they, they all obviously deny that. Um, so I don't,

01:37:14.480 you know, it's not an accusation or anything, but it's just trying to understand something that

01:37:17.860 otherwise is like really inexplicable. Right.

01:37:19.920 Um, so what were there other, because Epstein's annual operating budget had to be like, it's

01:37:28.240 hard to calculate, but like not that hard. Just maintaining aircraft like that is just beyond

01:37:33.640 yacht, big yacht. He had, yeah, beyond who are the other rich people he got money from? Do we know?

01:37:39.880 Well, so there, you know, there was a story that actually just came out in the last few days that

01:37:43.360 I have not had an opportunity to really dig down deep in. Um, I should go check Mike Benz's Twitter

01:37:47.780 feed. He's probably done this or he will soon, but, um, uh, where there are records apparently

01:37:53.280 of a billion and a half dollars that were transferred to and from Epstein, apparently

01:37:59.660 involving people whose names, you know, we've all, we've all heard before. It's not public. Um,

01:38:05.840 and so I, you know, again, I haven't dug deeply into that and exactly what's going on with it. So

01:38:09.720 maybe there's, maybe there's one document there that we can, uh, you know, that's, that's,

01:38:14.060 that's going to tell us something, but even that, that's, that you, that doesn't explain how,

01:38:18.400 I mean, he's living the lifestyle of a guy who personally has billions and billions of dollars.

01:38:22.480 But it doesn't explain motive. It doesn't explain why Wexner would give him all of this

01:38:27.100 at the very, very young age with no relevant experience as, as a tax advisor, as an investor.

01:38:35.520 It's just like, I mean, think about this Tucker. There was a, there was a point in the 1980s

01:38:39.760 when, uh, it might've been the early nineties, actually Wexner again, owned Victoria's secret

01:38:44.140 for a guy like Jeffrey Epstein. That's kind of a gold mine you're sitting on, right? Because

01:38:49.960 he would go out and he would pose as a talent scout. He would tell people that he was that

01:38:55.420 and he would present credentials that made it plausible. And he would get, uh, girls who wanted

01:39:00.840 to be models who wanted to be in Victoria's secret, um, to pose for him. And then he would sexually

01:39:06.980 assault them, uh, at times. And so two of the, this kind of got word got around that he was doing

01:39:12.680 this. And two of the top executives at Victoria's secret together, guys who had worked there for

01:39:16.940 years, new Wexner. Well, they went to him together and presented the evidence and told him that this

01:39:21.620 is what this guy's doing. And they never heard anything more about it. Nothing happened. And so

01:39:26.020 you ask like, got this young, I guess, run of the mill money manager dude who, uh, at Wexner at this

01:39:33.840 point is only known for a few years. It's not like they have a decades long relationship or anything.

01:39:37.580 And two of your top executives come and say, he's using your name basically to sexually assault women

01:39:42.660 who want to work for our company. And it gets blown off. And you say, who could get away with something

01:39:47.700 like that? You know? And, and the answer is the kind of guy that Wexner would give full power of

01:39:54.080 attorney over his state to, I suppose, you know, wild. So there was a, a couple people who've

01:40:00.440 been revealed in the popular press as having had relationships with Epstein and giving him money.

01:40:05.960 And one of them was a guy called Leon Black. Um, what is that story? So we know that Black gave

01:40:11.960 him over a hundred million dollars. I think he said, he, I think he's admitted that he did, right?

01:40:15.860 Yeah. They all kind of have the same story that like, we trusted this guy as an investment manager,

01:40:20.040 basically. And, you know, we were suckers. It's like, there's not a lot of billionaire suckers out

01:40:24.840 there, you know, when it goes, when it comes to the money side of their life. Um, you know,

01:40:29.320 all the details of he and Black's relationship, I'm, I'm not completely firm on, honestly, but he

01:40:35.640 gives in, in generally gives the same story that like Wexner gives, Oh, I trusted him. I was just

01:40:40.260 too naive and too trusting and scam me. Like he scammed everybody. I mean, but you know,

01:40:45.200 they don't even describe what the scam was. What's the scam?

01:40:47.340 So you look for example, at what happened with Hoffenberg before Epstein turned on him,

01:40:51.180 he took a hundred million dollars out of the company and Hoffenberg's accounts, moved it

01:40:55.120 offshore and then turned state's evidence on the guy and sent him off to prison. And so,

01:40:59.660 you know, uh, and what Hoffenberg said Epstein would do, uh, to other people, what eventually

01:41:04.820 got done to him, um, is he would, you know, he would, they would take their money into towers

01:41:10.160 financial at the time, but he would set up other companies to do this as well. And he would get

01:41:13.440 investors to come in and then he would take their money and he would hide it away. And he would do it

01:41:17.540 after he had procured blackmail on people to control, you know, to control them afterwards

01:41:22.180 so that they didn't come, come after him. And this is again, something that I wouldn't probably

01:41:27.000 put so much stock into that. Uh, if Hoffenberg had been interviewed about it in 2019 and told that

01:41:33.880 story when people are already talking about all of this stuff, kind of it's out there. This is 2002.

01:41:39.060 Nobody knows who Jeffrey Epstein is in 2002. I mean, this is a, um, this is before,

01:41:44.540 you know, he maybe was in the society pages or something and, you know, in New York city or

01:41:49.340 something, but nobody, he was not a celebrity. And so Hoffenberg is making these very specific

01:41:54.120 allegations about people that Epstein was connected with in the eighties and nineties from least to

01:41:59.100 Khashoggi and others to the specific, I mean, he gets down to exactly what he called the scheme that

01:42:04.460 he was running, playing the box. And he describes the whole thing. And essentially, uh, it's scamming

01:42:08.940 wealthy people out of their money and using blackmail to make sure that they're afraid to come

01:42:13.520 after him. Um, now how much of his wealth, uh, that represented, uh, you know, it's kind of hard

01:42:21.080 to say because in, um, like when he got sent off to jail in 2000, 2008, 2009, um, he, he gave,

01:42:31.980 he moved all of his money offshore to Israel actually. And, um, and also sent 46 and a half million

01:42:38.320 dollars to the Wexner foundation, which Wexner says was him paying back what he had stolen from

01:42:45.020 Wexner. I haven't heard him ask the question, why didn't you press charges? Why, you know,

01:42:49.880 anything like that. So who knows? Um, but, uh, yeah. So, I mean, let's talk a little bit about

01:42:55.800 what happened in, uh, uh, in that first case of his. Exactly. So wex, so Epstein is unknown to most

01:43:02.540 people. Then he becomes sort of famous in 2006, seven. Yeah. And in circle, you know, in like

01:43:09.020 society circles, he, he was pretty famous. I mean, it was a big deal. I mean, you know,

01:43:14.040 West Palm beach is a small community down there, um, of a very connected people who, who, you know,

01:43:19.980 how did he get busted? What was he accused of? What was he convicted of? Um, so Epstein's thing

01:43:25.800 that he would do usually is starting with Ghislaine Maxwell as his like initial recruiter,

01:43:32.740 you would find girls that were vulnerable in one way or another. Some, you know, young girls,

01:43:37.220 usually at high schools, he wasn't, uh, by all accounts, I think the youngest girl that he's

01:43:41.220 accused of messing with was 12 years old at the time. Um, so, you know, execute him or bury him

01:43:47.700 under the prison, but you know, a little bit different proclivity than the, uh, the, the

01:43:52.080 prepubescent pedophile type, probably a different psychology, you know? Um, but, uh, through

01:43:58.320 Maxwell story goes, um, she would go out and she would identify a girl who, you know, very

01:44:02.620 often was from broken family or from, you know, no father in the picture, you know, it was very

01:44:07.820 important because fathers tend to beat the hell out of, you know, 40 year old guys who

01:44:12.820 sexually assault their daughters. And so you find these girls who kind of already have like

01:44:16.560 some problems and you bring them in to give them a massage, say, look, he's this, this wealthy

01:44:21.020 guy is very interesting. He, uh, just likes to get massages. He'll pay you $200 to give

01:44:25.300 him a massage. Don't you want to just make $200 back in the eighties, nineties, you know,

01:44:28.860 early two thousands, a lot of money for high school girls, especially, um, from the wrong

01:44:32.900 side of the tracks. And so some of them would, I presume say no, but others would go do it.

01:44:37.180 And once they found ones that they liked to kind of fit the profile, then they would outsource

01:44:41.200 the recruitment to those girls. And it was actually one instance, in fact, where the girl,

01:44:45.900 when they tried to assault her, cause you know, they'd start out with the massage and

01:44:49.880 then they would go from there. And the girls at this point, you're in this billionaire's

01:44:54.040 house isolated behind a gate. And what are you going to do? You know, they don't, it's

01:45:00.340 a scary situation for a high school girl, obviously, you know, a lot of the people who look at the

01:45:04.180 situation and I tend to find very, I guess it's not strange when you really think about

01:45:08.300 it. But, um, when I talk to men about this, they're like, kill that guy. Just get rid of

01:45:13.680 that guy. When you talk to women about it, I find that they're a little bit more punitive

01:45:16.620 in their view. And maybe that's just cause what was she doing there? Yeah. They remember

01:45:19.920 being 15 and they're like, I wasn't just some purely innocent dove. Well, men are

01:45:23.920 protective as they should be. Yeah. And so, um, there was one girl who she did react that

01:45:29.280 way. She, you know, um, she refused to do anything and they said, well, okay, that's

01:45:32.800 all right. It's all right. You know, um, we still think you're awesome. You know, we want

01:45:36.360 to get massages and everything. I'll tell you what, you don't have to do anything. Um, but

01:45:39.480 we'll give you $200 for every one of your friends that you bring. If you find others, you bring

01:45:43.860 them in to do this and you know, we'll give them $200. You'll get $200 every time you do

01:45:48.000 it. And she, and she did it. And those girls, you know, really kind of sickeningly. And I

01:45:52.520 think, um, you know, they were kind of portrayed in the presses like prostitution solicitors and

01:45:58.500 kind of, these are minors. These are high school girls being manipulated by, uh, by adults

01:46:02.720 who very skillfully manipulated billionaires. You know what I mean? So, um, that's just a ridiculous

01:46:08.500 idea to like place a responsibility on them. Kind of a sick thing to write in a newspaper,

01:46:12.640 honestly. But, um, and so they would do that and you know, that's sort of in short, I mean,

01:46:17.940 the girl who is from a broken family and has some problems from the wrong side of the tracks,

01:46:21.780 she might know a girl who, uh, is from an intact, you know, middle-class family with two

01:46:27.940 concerned parents. Uh, but very often her friends are kind of from the same mold that she's from

01:46:32.700 every once in a while. They weren't though. And this is part of how he got caught is one of

01:46:37.640 the girls that they brought in. They had a father, they had a mother who cared and they had a,

01:46:42.280 a pretty regular family who, uh, after everything was over, she ran back to them and told them all

01:46:47.580 about it and they went to the police. And so the West Palm beach, this was down in Florida,

01:46:53.520 the West Palm beach police department starts looking into the guy, starts gathering more

01:46:57.360 information, starts talking to more witnesses. And very quickly, this thing starts expanding out

01:47:02.840 so that two witnesses becomes four and four becomes eight and eight becomes 16. It's like

01:47:07.720 expanding a lot. And they're realizing they have a big, big, big issue on their hands.

01:47:12.580 And as they're going through the Netflix documentary, it leaves out a lot of really

01:47:17.000 important information, but it's really good on this stuff. Um, you know, they interview like the

01:47:21.160 chief of police in West Palm beach there at the time. And you can see, he is just flabbergasted,

01:47:27.020 outrage, just, you know, to the point where, you know, he says at one point that it, it, it cost him

01:47:32.320 his faith in the U S criminal justice system, you know, because he was getting stonewalled like crazy

01:47:37.000 at the local level, people in his department or somewhere in the local government were leaking

01:47:41.880 the information of the investigation to Jeffrey Epstein. So that for example, when they raided

01:47:46.060 his house, finally went in there and all the computers had been taken away. It was totally ready

01:47:49.700 for the, totally ready for the raid and prepared for it. Everything was removed. Um, and he was a hundred

01:47:55.500 percent tipped off, they say. Um, and so he's facing this kind of resistance at the local level and the

01:48:01.420 state prosecutor level. And so he does something that you don't do as a chief of police. Uh, he

01:48:06.760 just went completely around his chain of command and went directly to the feds himself and said,

01:48:11.040 I'm going to bring the feds in. Like clearly the state and the local officials are just too

01:48:15.660 corrupted. Uh, you know, apparently maybe it's just because he's an important guy and they don't

01:48:19.580 want to rock the boat and bring bad publicity, but whatever it is, I need to bring the heavy artillery

01:48:24.000 in here because the feds aren't going to care. You know, they're not, he's not big enough for

01:48:28.400 them, you know, supposedly. And so he gives it over to the feds and that's when it ends up in, uh, in

01:48:34.920 the lap of Alex Acosta, who was the Southern district of Florida, uh, us attorney at the time.

01:48:40.400 And so they start looking into this guy and they start building out a case. You have this, uh,

01:48:46.080 uh, woman, a villain wave, I think her name was, who was the lead prosecutor for the us attorney's

01:48:51.500 office on the Epstein case. And she, from all appearances at least was very enthusiastic and

01:48:57.100 earnest about trying to pursue this case and was very upset about how the whole thing was handled

01:49:00.820 by her superiors, but they're building out a case and they get to the point where, I mean,

01:49:05.540 this was actually even before the West Palm beach police department did this. The feds got handed a

01:49:10.720 case with 40 something on the record, underage witnesses, accusing this guy, corroborating each

01:49:18.820 other's stories, telling the exact same story of how they were recruited, what happened when they got

01:49:23.700 there, what they were asked and made to do everything down the line, right? This is like

01:49:28.340 when they, when, when the West Palm beach, uh, first went to the prosecutor after they started

01:49:33.060 building their, uh, their, their case, the guy, they said, the guy like sort of chuckled and laughed.

01:49:37.860 He was like, this is going to be the easiest case I've ever done. You know, this is open and we're

01:49:41.940 going to put this guy away for a hundred years. Like this is the easiest case we're ever going to do.

01:49:45.640 And he, he can't do it at the state level. So he hands it over to the feds and open and shut. I

01:49:51.700 mean, you just, how do you get away from 40 on the record, corroborating independent witnesses,

01:49:57.460 right? You can, you can discredit one or two or 10, you still got 30 left, you know, and, um,

01:50:04.620 goes to the feds and, uh, they're built, they build out the case more. They bring in more witnesses.

01:50:09.040 They gather more evidence. And all of a sudden, uh, the prosecutor, she starts running into

01:50:15.380 obstacles of her own. One of the things, for example, they found out was that the computers

01:50:20.060 that had been taken out of his house in West Palm beach were in the possession of somebody

01:50:23.140 connected to Epstein's lawyers. And so she put out a, she put out a, a department of justice subpoena

01:50:28.920 demanding those computers from the lawyers and the people. And the lawyers kind of, you know,

01:50:35.040 they, they delay and have meetings and, you know, put things off and so forth. And these are

01:50:39.740 some of them people we've heard of Alan Dershowitz, people like that, um, who, um, they delay, they

01:50:46.200 get. And so one day, uh, she goes to her bosses and she kind of grills them a little bit. Like

01:50:53.600 what the hell is going on here? You know what? Um, she wrote this in an email actually. She was very

01:50:57.980 aggressive about it though. She's like, I don't know what's happening here. I don't know what the

01:51:01.260 deal is, but like we have, we have a child predator on our hands with an open and shut

01:51:05.700 case to put this guy away for the rest of our life. What is, what is the problem here? And she

01:51:10.620 gets reprimanded and told in no uncertain terms, your attitude is not appreciated and you need to

01:51:15.060 back off and all these kinds of things by her superior. And so then one day, uh, and this is

01:51:19.520 while the subpoena is out for those computers, uh, Alex Acosta personally, uh, goes and cuts a deal

01:51:26.740 with Epstein's lawyers without telling the lead prosecutor who's looking into the case

01:51:30.740 without telling the victims, which is in contravention of victims rights law. You know,

01:51:36.260 if you're going to cut a deal with a sex offender, uh, you got to tell the victims, Hey, by the way,

01:51:40.540 this is what's happening. Here's why we're doing it. And just so you know, he's going to be out of

01:51:43.820 jail in a year or something. You have to tell them it's a law. This guy wind up his labor secretary.

01:51:48.300 That is a story worth looking into. I don't know. Um, but a lot of candidates for the gig.

01:51:54.120 So he, why that guy? Yeah. He comes in and he cuts a deal with the lawyers that says

01:52:00.380 that the federal government agrees not to prosecute Epstein for any of the crimes that are being

01:52:07.440 alleged, any related crimes that have yet to be alleged, nor will they prosecute any of his

01:52:14.620 accomplices known or unknown. So crimes that come out in the future committed by people who aren't

01:52:21.620 known about yet, those are covered under this immunity as well, right? It's the most blanket

01:52:26.260 you can possibly imagine. And as a condition of the deal, uh, the subpoena for his computers

01:52:31.820 was dropped. Okay. Um, so it sounds like they intentionally didn't gather a lot of evidence.

01:52:41.880 100%. So this is relevant. The reason I'm bringing it up is there's this, I said, I wouldn't talk about

01:52:47.520 contemporary politics, but there's this huge controversy over why isn't the DOJ releasing

01:52:52.300 all this information. And my informed understanding is at least to some extent, because they don't have

01:52:58.320 it and they don't have it because it was never gathered. And I don't know why nobody has said

01:53:04.400 that publicly. Um, I'm not making excuses for anybody by the way, but I, but it's really interesting.

01:53:10.820 So the coverup began immediately. A hundred percent and went all the way up to the federal

01:53:15.580 level. And then just to remind everybody where this conversation started, that U S attorney,

01:53:19.800 future labor secretary under, uh, Donald Trump was apparently on the record, uh, telling the people

01:53:24.380 who were vetting him for the labor secretary job that he, the reason he cut that deal was because

01:53:29.920 he was told Epstein belonged to intelligence and to leave it alone. Okay. So that, so, okay,

01:53:36.340 let's just set this in time and place. The feds are basically protecting Jeffrey Epstein in 2007

01:53:45.160 ish. That's the Bush administration. And it clearly, this is a very high profile thing. It was in the

01:53:53.760 papers. DOJ, this is their, you know, Costa is a U S attorney. He's the federal prosecutor in

01:53:59.280 Southern district of Florida. Correct. So what does DOJ think of this? Like, why are they involved in it?

01:54:06.340 Yeah. I mean, uh, involved in like the cover up, I think, uh, you know, that's, that's the

01:54:12.780 interesting question. I go back to the question I asked earlier, like a U S attorney is pretty high

01:54:17.020 up, you know, he's running the Southern district of Florida's U S attorney's office. That guy,

01:54:21.260 there's not that many people above his head who can tell him to drop a case like this. I mean,

01:54:25.940 you got to think about it like this too. I mean, this is a career case for a prosecutor like a cost.

01:54:31.500 I mean, you're going to be attorney general behind this case someday. You know,

01:54:34.740 you talk billionaire playboy, uh, putting him away for his entire life. Cause he's sexually

01:54:39.540 abusing underage girls for years and years. I mean, you're going to, this makes your whole career.

01:54:44.800 And so to drop that, there's only a couple people and a couple reasons that somebody like him would

01:54:49.940 agree to, would agree to do that, you know? And, and, uh, there are people whose names we've all

01:54:55.160 heard probably, you know, I think Alberto was a Gonzalez who was attorney general at the time. And

01:54:59.860 I mean, it's only a few people who could do that. Um, you know, one of the things might add something

01:55:04.380 to do with it is, uh, in when, before Jeffrey Epstein was sentenced for whatever reason,

01:55:09.260 you have this billionaire who's just the definition of a flight risk. Um, they don't take his passport

01:55:14.340 away. And before he's sentenced, he, uh, he goes, he flees, he goes, flees the country, goes to Israel

01:55:20.700 and stays there for several months, moved all his money offshore by this point. And while he's in

01:55:25.260 Israel, he, uh, he's, he's telling people there that he's thinking about staying because you can

01:55:30.340 actually, you can actually do that. They don't extradite, you know, uh, Jewish criminals, at

01:55:34.500 least to who flee to Israel. There's a, there's a organization called Jewish community watch, um,

01:55:39.740 which is a Jewish organization, uh, that tracks, uh, pedophiles who have fled the United States

01:55:45.860 to go to Israel where there's no, no extradition of Jewish criminals there. And, um, between just the

01:55:51.240 years, uh, I think it was 2010 when they started, when they opened up in 2016, 2017, when this story

01:55:57.720 was written. So it appeared to six years, there were already 60 pedophiles from the United States

01:56:01.700 that had fled to Israel and were living freely there. Some of them had reoffended there and

01:56:05.220 got thrown in Israeli jails. But, um, so this is a thing, you know, uh, and Jeffrey Epstein was

01:56:09.760 over there. Why doesn't the U.S. government demand the government of Israel send them back?

01:56:14.420 Um, I, I mean, you've been self-employed for a while, but when you weren't, was it your

01:56:21.220 habit to go to your boss and make demands of them on a regular basis? I don't know. I

01:56:24.940 mean, since when do we ever make demands on Israel? It's been a long time.

01:56:29.520 I don't know, but I, I, you know, that's obviously distressing. So, um, okay. So there's clearly

01:56:36.720 a coverup at the very beginning. And I just want to say again, I think that's one, not the

01:56:41.720 totality of, but one of the reasons we don't have this information now is because DOJ doesn't

01:56:45.460 have the information.

01:56:45.760 Can I tie up that last point real quick?

01:56:47.000 Please.

01:56:47.160 Just a second. So, um, him being in Israel, uh, and at least having the threat of staying

01:56:52.880 there, uh, you know, that may have played a role in him cutting his deal because that's

01:56:56.280 when his deal was cut.

01:56:56.640 He's already been charged at this point.

01:56:58.080 He's awaiting sentencing.

01:56:59.640 He's been convicted?

01:57:00.520 And they don't take his passport and he leaves the country.

01:57:03.780 Wait, wait, he's been convicted and he leaves the country?

01:57:06.580 Correct. And his plea deal, um, or well, so, no, no.

01:57:11.720 Let me back that up.

01:57:12.980 His plea deal was negotiated while he was out of the country because he, he didn't fight

01:57:18.360 the, he didn't fight the charges.

01:57:19.580 It wasn't, it didn't go to, you know, go to trial to a jury trial or anything.

01:57:23.280 He was out of the country and his lawyers could credibly go to the DOJ.

01:57:26.340 Say that is special treatment.

01:57:27.600 Did any of the J6 defendants get treatment like that?

01:57:29.820 No, I don't think so.

01:57:30.640 That's what's infuriating about all this, leaving aside, you know, a lot of other elements

01:57:34.820 that are upsetting, but the most infuriating is just the two tiers or multi-tier system

01:57:39.240 of justice.

01:57:39.740 This is something that people I think have not, maybe even at the highest levels, when

01:57:44.140 I read, uh, president Trump's true socials about it, things like that, that people are

01:57:48.120 just, they don't seem to be understanding is this isn't about some guy that sexually assaulted

01:57:52.660 a bunch of girls like Jeffrey Epstein for better, for worse has become a proxy for other things.

01:57:58.280 You know, can I interrupt you to say our, uh, faithful and gifted researcher has just held

01:58:04.820 up a note saying Acosta, apparently Alex Acosta has said, and this is different from what I

01:58:11.080 described, um, that he never said that Epstein was, was connected to intelligence.

01:58:16.240 So that is not my understanding.

01:58:18.000 So he was asked about it at a press conference and he essentially refused to answer.

01:58:22.680 He said, um, you know, that's, he said, I wouldn't take those media reports at face value

01:58:27.480 and beyond that, uh, department of justice policy, you know, kind of forbids me from going any

01:58:32.560 further into that.

01:58:33.160 And then there was another, it was an ABC news report.

01:58:35.000 And this is kind of an example of how this stuff gets out into the public mind.

01:58:38.460 And there was an ABC pretty, yeah, it was ABC news report was talking about his DOJ deal

01:58:44.080 back then.

01:58:44.620 And, um, and they said that, uh, in the story, they said that, uh, the DOJ had, had stated

01:58:53.000 that he had no connections to intelligence, but when you actually go read the documents,

01:58:58.240 that's not what was asked at all.

01:59:00.360 The question was not whether he had any connections to intelligence.

01:59:03.160 The question was whether he was given leniency because of cooperation that he was giving to

01:59:09.000 the FBI and DOJ, uh, on cases related to Bear Stearns.

01:59:12.880 And they said no to that.

01:59:13.900 And it got written up in the news as him saying he had no connection to the intelligence community,

01:59:18.700 which is not true.

01:59:19.740 The lying is like overwhelming.

01:59:22.440 Yeah.

01:59:23.000 And so, um, just so everybody understands here.

01:59:26.040 I mean, this is a guy who, again, over 40 on the record witnesses, most of them underage

01:59:32.460 corroborating each other's stories independently of this guy, sexually assaulting underage

01:59:37.540 girls for years.

01:59:39.120 He gets this non-prosecution agreement with the federal government in perpetuity, him

01:59:44.180 and all of his accomplices known and unknown for crimes known and unknown.

01:59:48.480 And it gets sent down to the state level.

01:59:50.380 And he agrees to a two year term in down there in Southern Florida, not at, not in a federal

01:59:57.420 prison, not in a state prison at the County jail where he has, it sounds like I'm making

02:00:03.320 this up.

02:00:03.700 I'm not, uh, he has his own wing of the jail to himself.

02:00:07.720 His cell door remains open.

02:00:10.660 He gets out on work release for 12 hours a day, six days a week, accompanied only by security

02:00:18.080 that he pays the salary of.

02:00:20.540 He only has to stay the night there six days a week and then spend one day a week there

02:00:24.760 in the jail.

02:00:25.220 So, uh, you know, so it's like the national guard.

02:00:28.060 Yeah.

02:00:28.580 And, and, and again, you're not talking about a guy who got busted embezzling funds.

02:00:32.600 You know, you're talking about a guy who got busted doing the thing that if you were to

02:00:37.080 pull up every American, I believe, and ask them, what's the worst thing, what is the worst

02:00:42.280 thing that anybody can do that you would, you know, you're against the death penalty that

02:00:46.140 you might make an exception for it's molesting little children.

02:00:49.300 You know, everybody kind of agrees that that is the red line.

02:00:52.340 Everybody feels that way that I know that, you know, that everybody listening to this

02:00:55.880 knows.

02:00:56.500 And so you ask like, what are the possible reasons that could be big enough and important

02:01:01.680 enough that they would let a guy like this have a, I mean, it's insulting to the investigators,

02:01:06.420 to the police, to the prosecutors, to give a guy a deal like that, you know?

02:01:10.580 And can I say one thing that has always struck me about this case and why I think it's like

02:01:15.080 revealing of the entire power structure of the United States Epstein.

02:01:19.920 And there was testimony from, public testimony from women who lived with Epstein to this

02:01:25.960 effect.

02:01:27.000 His contempt for Americans, sort of normal middle class, working class Americans, he did

02:01:33.760 not see them as fully human.

02:01:34.940 He didn't.

02:01:36.220 And at all.

02:01:37.160 So it's like molesting, you know, a high school girl from housing development or a trailer park

02:01:44.360 in South Florida doesn't really count as molesting because she's a pro.

02:01:47.780 Like, who cares?

02:01:49.040 And that attitude suffuses our leadership class.

02:01:53.600 Like, that is their attitude.

02:01:54.860 Yeah, 100,000 people die of fentanyl ODs.

02:01:57.380 Yeah, but I mean, people.

02:01:59.520 You know what I mean?

02:02:00.280 Like, it's sad, but it's not an emergency because they're like people you would never

02:02:03.980 meet and you don't really care about.

02:02:05.100 They're just building their fucking dollar store in their town and like, nobody cares

02:02:07.480 about them.

02:02:08.340 He really had that attitude, but that's the attitude they all have.

02:02:12.240 He had justification for having that attitude in terms of the impunity with which he operated.

02:02:17.400 And this is actually something I was hoping we would get to because all this stuff is

02:02:20.600 super interesting and important, all the intelligence stuff and everything.

02:02:24.260 And if you want like all the deep, deep, deep detail on that stuff, I did a six hour long

02:02:29.360 podcast series on it.

02:02:30.480 Guys like Mike Benz, Ryan Dawson's one of the chief researchers who's really done a lot

02:02:35.640 of the work that people who write books about the nation being under blackmail and so forth,

02:02:40.320 like crib this guy's research without crediting him, you know.

02:02:43.800 But, and I'm going to, I'm actually going to interview him next week just to go really

02:02:48.640 deep on a lot of the, a lot of the stuff that we're not able to get here to here tonight.

02:02:55.760 But, you know, the thing I want to, I really want to kind of, maybe the question that I want

02:03:03.080 to leave people with as we get into the last part of this conversation is you say that

02:03:07.560 like, so when Epstein was, was convicted in 2000, that, that, the, the 2000s case, this

02:03:14.300 was in the newspapers.

02:03:15.060 This was not something, you know, you might, if you were watching the football game, you

02:03:17.960 might not have ever heard about it, but if you were a wealthy person in Washington,

02:03:22.740 DC or New York city or West Palm beach, Florida, you knew who Jeffrey Epstein was and you

02:03:27.140 knew what had happened to him and you knew what he had done.

02:03:29.880 His private plane was nicknamed the Lolita express.

02:03:34.960 Lolita is a novel written by, uh, Nabokov about a guy based on a true story, actually, uh, about

02:03:41.060 a guy who takes a 12 year old girl, kidnaps her and takes her on a kind of odyssey across

02:03:44.880 the country, raping her over the course of those two years.

02:03:47.140 It's a novel about child molestation.

02:03:48.340 It's a novel about child molestation and his airplane was nicknamed the Lolita express.

02:03:53.900 It was not given that nickname by him.

02:03:56.160 It was given that nickname by other people, other people knew who this guy was.

02:04:00.840 They knew what he was doing.

02:04:01.900 And so the question then that I, I really had to wrestle with for a long time.

02:04:06.100 And I have an answer that satisfies me now.

02:04:09.420 Um, and it, and it relates to what you were, the point you were just making about our ruling

02:04:12.780 class.

02:04:13.680 Um, you know, if, if Tucker, if I, if literally any one of my male friends or family members,

02:04:20.180 any of them, if we got invited to go somewhere on some dude's plane and you walk onto that

02:04:27.760 plane and, uh, as soon as you get in the air, five or six underage girls who are not related

02:04:34.580 to him come out in their underwear and start offering massages.

02:04:38.920 My responses to that are going to vary between like, which level of criminal action am I going

02:04:45.060 to take against this guy?

02:04:46.180 Am I going to beat him senseless?

02:04:47.320 Am I going to throw him out of this flying plane?

02:04:49.340 You know, those are basically the range of outcomes in that situation.

02:04:52.320 And that's true for almost everybody that almost everybody watching this knows.

02:04:57.800 And so regular people hear about this and they're like, they almost have trouble believing

02:05:02.960 that it's possible because they don't know anybody who would have such a cavalier reaction.

02:05:06.920 They don't know anybody who would just, I know a lot of people.

02:05:09.300 So, uh, that's why I think it's important to go over.

02:05:13.120 Um, and I don't want to get into like the conspiracy theory side of this stuff.

02:05:16.460 That, that, that's not as important to me, honestly.

02:05:19.820 Um, but when you need to, I think we've progressed, we've been here an hour and 57 minutes.

02:05:24.320 And I think that from what I can tell, I'm sort of familiar, not with a lot of what you

02:05:29.660 said, but the framework I get, I don't think you've said anything that's speculative.

02:05:33.360 Have you?

02:05:34.240 I've tried not to.

02:05:35.180 Okay.

02:05:35.340 So the story just based on available facts, which are a minority of all facts about it,

02:05:41.880 but just what we have, it's like, it's a true indictment.

02:05:45.940 You remember back when the Podesta emails came out and the whole Pizzagate thing took

02:05:49.700 over the internet for a while, you know, every dark corner, the Reddit and everything else

02:05:53.580 was all of this, this satanic pedophile conspiracy, you know, et cetera, called Pizzagate.

02:05:58.860 Yeah.

02:05:59.260 I, again, I'm not going to get into the conspiracy theory itself.

02:06:02.040 I'm just going to use it to raise a larger point about what we're talking about here.

02:06:05.860 The interesting thing to me about that whole saga was not the idea that there's some big

02:06:10.940 crazy conspiracy involving the, just any of that stuff.

02:06:13.840 That's just whatever.

02:06:14.640 That's what the internet does with information like that.

02:06:16.940 The interesting thing to me was the things that were just a hundred percent fact, the bits

02:06:22.100 and pieces of the story that they were using to construct that narrative, the pieces themselves

02:06:25.820 are really interesting.

02:06:26.620 One of the first things that came up, uh, is people started digging into those on Reddit

02:06:31.400 and everywhere else and really going into it.

02:06:33.460 One of the things is, uh, everybody remembers hearing about spirit cooking, you know, the

02:06:37.480 performance artist Marina Abramovich, um, did this event that the Podestas were invited

02:06:42.800 to and apparently enjoyed very much called spirit cooking.

02:06:45.320 And, uh, what pray tell is spirit cooking Tucker?

02:06:47.900 It, it was a performance art piece, a dinner event where the attendees would go and, uh, sit

02:06:56.160 in rooms with white walls and eat meals off of mock corpses in tubs of blood with weird,

02:07:04.980 creepy messages about cutting the finger on your left hand and eating the pain and drinking

02:07:10.020 fresh breast milk with fresh sperm milk on earthquake nights, all these crazy edgelord

02:07:15.320 art school, you know, things that are kind of just embarrassing.

02:07:18.400 But, you know, these weird cryptic sayings written in goat's blood on the walls in one

02:07:23.400 room, there's an effigy of an infant with a bucket of goat's blood thrown all over it.

02:07:27.820 There's another room where there's a bunch of shelves with little figures put in positions

02:07:32.260 of various positions of copulation.

02:07:34.980 Um, you know, there's photos from these events that Abramovich would put on, uh, you know, Lady

02:07:40.420 Gaga's there eating off of one of these mock corpses.

02:07:43.020 Gwen Stefani's at one of them.

02:07:44.880 And, you know, they're there at these places where, um, you know, forget about, you know,

02:07:50.020 people want to say, oh, this is a satanic ritual.

02:07:51.960 Forget about all that.

02:07:52.720 Forget about all that.

02:07:53.980 Just think about like, if this was your friend or your brother or your sister and they went

02:07:57.180 to this thing or they brought you to this thing, you'd be like, what are we doing here?

02:08:01.600 What is this exactly?

02:08:02.800 Right.

02:08:03.480 And so the next thing that came out, wouldn't she run immediately?

02:08:08.360 Again, you would, I would, everybody we know would, everybody listening.

02:08:11.520 Tony and Heather Podesta went to this.

02:08:13.820 Mm-hmm.

02:08:14.320 And, well, I don't know if Heather did or not, but he and John did.

02:08:17.560 And, uh, so Tony's a, a big art collector.

02:08:20.320 Oh, I'm aware.

02:08:20.900 Okay.

02:08:21.320 Yeah.

02:08:21.500 I knew his wife.

02:08:22.180 Yeah.

02:08:22.400 And his, uh, his art collection became a big part of the whole Pizzagate story.

02:08:26.000 This is like right in my neighborhood, by the way, where I live.

02:08:28.140 So.

02:08:28.560 Which is so weird.

02:08:29.980 You know, uh, Tony Podesta's taste in art became a big part of that whole Pizzagate story.

02:08:34.660 And it's one of those things that, again, when you, when you have, uh, gaps to fill in

02:08:38.880 a story and just pieces of information, you're not getting any explanations from anybody that

02:08:42.700 make any sense explaining it to you in a way that's plausible.

02:08:45.800 That's how conspiracy theories grow like mold, right?

02:08:48.280 If something like that is going on in your city, if like some of the most powerful people

02:08:51.560 in your city are participating in something like that, I don't need to know anymore.

02:08:55.560 Yeah.

02:08:55.880 I literally don't need to know anymore.

02:08:57.240 Like that's just there was the, I told you earlier that I, um, I, I made the point of

02:09:01.360 going and buying the copy of architectural digest and Washington life magazine that profiled

02:09:05.440 his apartment and his art collection and on the walls in the photographs in these magazines.

02:09:12.380 Okay.

02:09:13.160 Uh, there's a lot of different art there, but like the most prominent ones that are, one's

02:09:17.780 a mural size centerpiece of a room.

02:09:19.700 The others are poster size, like big, important, prominent pieces that he's got out for everybody

02:09:23.780 to see, um, are, are by a Serbian artist named, uh, Biljana Djurjevic.

02:09:29.780 And they're part of a series of paintings that according to the artists, uh, own interviews

02:09:34.740 are based on explorations of child molestation, sexual, sexual assault, and just childhood trauma

02:09:41.140 and abuse in general.

02:09:42.420 And it is, uh, you know, um, there are a lot of paintings in the series, but the ones that

02:09:47.740 show up in the magazine piece, for example, one, the great big mural one is a bunch of young

02:09:53.120 girls.

02:09:53.520 They look like maybe teenagers, 12 year olds or something who are lying in a circle.

02:09:57.600 It's called synchronized swimming is the name of the painting lying in a circle, um, in

02:10:01.940 at the bottom of like a, like a tiled room or something.

02:10:04.740 And they all have this spaced out kind of dead drugged out look in their eyes.

02:10:09.820 And some of them have black eyes and they're just sort of laying there.

02:10:12.360 And so, um, I don't want to be ruled by people like this.

02:10:15.420 Well, so let me just keep, cause this gets so much worse.

02:10:18.080 Oh, you're upsetting me.

02:10:18.860 Cause I lived in this world for so long and I intentionally ignored this.

02:10:22.760 And I, but now that you are describing it, I was like, I can't even believe I was in

02:10:27.040 the same county as people like that.

02:10:29.620 I would look if I would, if I was into, uh, art that featured tied up pubescent, prepubescent

02:10:39.660 children in their underwear by an artist, uh, that, that says, this is all about child sexual

02:10:45.800 assaults, what this series of pain of paintings is about.

02:10:48.720 If I was into that, I would at least take it all down before company came over.

02:10:54.620 These were rooms that he threw his parties in.

02:10:56.560 He invited people over to, I would definitely take them down before architectural digest.

02:11:01.380 But if you were into them, like being, let me just be clear, being into something like

02:11:05.740 that means that you are on an evil path.

02:11:08.660 That's, that's evil.

02:11:09.660 I don't know what to say.

02:11:10.420 Like an image like that.

02:11:12.080 It's, it's also obvious now that I have distance from it.

02:11:14.680 There's a, that's bad.

02:11:15.720 He was asked in an interview about some of his favorite artists.

02:11:18.980 One of them that he, he listed was a woman named Patricia Piccinini who does, I guess,

02:11:23.760 sculptures, you would say.

02:11:24.700 I don't know if they're clay sculptures or whatever, but, and they're really grotesque

02:11:29.200 images of, you know, a small girl standing up on her bed, maybe five years old with this

02:11:34.840 demon thing with its claws around her kind of leering at her.

02:11:37.760 There, there's one with this sort of weird pig monster spooning this little boy in his

02:11:41.900 bed with pustules on its back.

02:11:43.760 There's a lot of mouths that look like sphincters and vaginas and the kids are playing with them.

02:11:50.020 It's all very suggestive, weird, surrealist horror movie, kind of sexually tinted, slanted

02:11:56.420 stuff.

02:11:57.380 He listed her as one of his favorite artists.

02:11:59.120 Another one that he listed was a woman named Kim Noble.

02:12:01.300 And I'll stop grossing you out with the app.

02:12:03.160 You're upsetting me because you're describing Tony Podesta, who is the, you know, brother

02:12:08.000 of the former White House Chief of Staff, two-time Chief of Staff John Podesta.

02:12:12.560 But Tony Podesta is the most powerful Democratic lobbyist in Washington.

02:12:15.440 This is not some fringe character.

02:12:16.680 It's not a homeless guy.

02:12:17.900 Not even some, like, eccentric rich guy.

02:12:20.120 This is a person who's at the center of the Democratic establishment in the city.

02:12:24.760 For decades.

02:12:25.340 For my whole life there.

02:12:26.800 Yeah.

02:12:27.140 And his wife is, you know, they've since divorced, but she's like, I mean, look, pull up a picture

02:12:34.840 of those two on Google and just look at it and ask yourself, is that, like, how brainwashed

02:12:40.380 would you have to be not to see there's something really wrong there?

02:12:42.600 Really wrong.

02:12:43.440 Like, deeply wrong.

02:12:44.060 Spiritually wrong.

02:12:45.100 I'm not trying to be judgmental or cruel.

02:12:46.500 I'm just, I don't understand how that could exist at the very center of power in Washington,

02:12:51.440 D.C.

02:12:51.680 That's like a, I just feel it so deeply.

02:12:54.560 Well, this gets to the question that we're trying to answer here.

02:12:57.420 Like, so another artist that he named as one of his favorites was a British woman named

02:13:00.900 Kim Noble.

02:13:03.360 And I don't think I could pull it up on my phone and show that to the audience right

02:13:08.420 now without getting this video banned.

02:13:10.220 Kim Noble was a woman who was violently sexually assaulted.

02:13:14.580 Countless times between the ages of one and three, it shattered her mind.

02:13:20.780 She has a dissociative identity disorder, what we used to call multiple personality disorder.

02:13:24.900 And several of these personalities are artists.

02:13:28.300 And they, the art is something that like a four or five year old would do.

02:13:31.860 It's scribbled stick figures and everything, but it is the most grotesque depictions of adults

02:13:39.740 sexually abusing children that you can think of.

02:13:41.840 However bad you think it is, it's worse.

02:13:44.160 And so, and this was another woman that, that, that was named as a, that he was a fan of.

02:13:48.640 And so I just think to myself, this millionaire lobbyist in D.C.

02:13:52.520 and his friends.

02:13:53.500 The biggest Democratic lobbyist.

02:13:55.220 Saying, you know, what do you think about the artist Kim Noble?

02:13:58.920 It's like, oh, I think the, you know, the image with the demon having the little girl

02:14:03.520 fellating her while another demon urinates on her is just fascinating in its use of color.

02:14:08.320 I mean, it's what you just, who are these people?

02:14:12.200 Well, so that's what I didn't understand.

02:14:13.560 So I, at the time, living near the, in the middle of all this, I looked right down the

02:14:18.640 road from Comet Pizza.

02:14:19.600 I knew David Brock and James Elephantus, and I'm not well, but like, they're in the, I

02:14:25.420 disapproved, they're liberals, they're Democrats, whatever, I'm not going to have dinner with

02:14:28.880 them.

02:14:29.520 But I assumed the art stuff, and I knew the Podestas, I assumed that was just like, douchey,

02:14:35.820 pretentious, they're like townies, they don't, you know, they made all this money, they're

02:14:40.000 pretending to be sophisticated, they're, they have terrible taste, of course.

02:14:44.520 This is like my thinking, my, I'll just admit it, kind of snobbish view of it, like, ugh.

02:14:49.600 I didn't, or couldn't, or refused to, or whatever, face the obvious reality that's just hitting

02:14:54.740 me right now, right in the face, hard.

02:14:57.260 That's evil.

02:14:59.420 That's just evil.

02:15:00.960 And what I thought was gauche is satanic in a, strictly speaking, I mean, whether they're

02:15:07.380 like, you know, part of some organized church of Satan or whatever, I don't even know if

02:15:09.940 that exists in real life, but certainly obedience to Satan exists.

02:15:13.860 And that's what that is.

02:15:15.720 Period.

02:15:16.440 And maybe just as interesting, because that's just one person.

02:15:19.740 There's a lot of people who have strange proclivities and weird interests, right?

02:15:23.700 Fine.

02:15:23.980 But he's at the center of the city.

02:15:25.460 A, he's at the center of power.

02:15:26.780 But B, again, what is the culture of this place that he would feel comfortable inviting

02:15:32.880 magazine photographers over to take pictures, to take photographs of the paintings he puts

02:15:38.640 in his rooms of, there's one of the paintings that he has by Biljana Djurjevic that is just,

02:15:43.140 unmistakably, two dead little girls lying on their backs in like a pond or a lake or

02:15:48.880 something.

02:15:49.560 Just no question that that's what it is.

02:15:50.980 It's in the magazine.

02:15:52.660 And so, and-

02:15:53.860 And by the way, people are, they, I may be misremembering this and don't sue me, Heather

02:15:58.160 Podesta, if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Heather Podesta told me, to my face, that they

02:16:02.960 had another house just for the art.

02:16:05.400 I think I remember.

02:16:05.920 He supposedly owns 5,000 pieces of art, something really-

02:16:08.520 Okay, so, but that means like, okay, so why do you have a house?

02:16:11.580 So you can invite people over.

02:16:12.660 So that's like my neighbors.

02:16:13.940 I never went, but I was never invited.

02:16:16.900 But that means like a lot of people I know went over to the Podesta's house and saw paintings

02:16:22.300 of demons having sex with dead children or whatever.

02:16:25.720 I can't even let that into my head.

02:16:27.100 And they're like, yeah, it's kind of far out, kind of funky.

02:16:31.020 You know, they're sort of edgy, the Podesta's.

02:16:32.680 It's like, check yourself, dude.

02:16:35.080 Right, right.

02:16:35.420 This is hell.

02:16:36.280 So when you ask the question of how is it, and this is something that ordinary people really

02:16:39.940 need to understand, because this is not the first ruling class that this has happened

02:16:43.980 to.

02:16:44.140 No, no, no.

02:16:44.640 This has happened to ruling classes throughout the world, throughout history.

02:16:47.240 This is Weimar Caligula.

02:16:48.740 Yes, it's the British gentry in the late 18, early 1900s when they're all into Aleister Crowley

02:16:53.660 and all that kind of stuff.

02:16:54.500 100%.

02:16:54.580 It's white mischief in Nairobi in 1925.

02:16:56.960 This is late empire stuff.

02:16:58.180 And so, you know, the fact that, you know, we asked the question, how is it that every

02:17:03.000 single person I know that you know, that everybody listening to this knows and allows into their

02:17:07.840 life, would run screaming off of that airplane when six underage girls in their underwear

02:17:11.840 come out?

02:17:12.820 The answer is, well, if you just came from a spirit cooking dinner and followed up by a

02:17:17.100 party at Tony Podesta's house where there's pictures of tied up dead eight-year-olds all

02:17:20.880 over the wall, and then you go onto that plane, eh.

02:17:25.600 Well, you know, it's not exactly—

02:17:26.820 I can vouch for that.

02:17:29.240 I just never went on the plane.

02:17:31.200 I never went to the Podesta's house.

02:17:32.540 But boy, did I live in a world of people who did.

02:17:35.820 And not one time in 35 years in D.C. did anybody say, holy shit, I was at Tony's house

02:17:41.580 last night.

02:17:41.820 You should see what's in there.

02:17:43.400 They were like, oh, it's douchey art.

02:17:44.780 I mean, look, you would get kicked off of a local school board for having pictures of

02:17:49.100 tied up dead eight-year-olds on your wall.

02:17:51.660 And so if you were going to say—

02:17:52.580 But also, what's happening to your society?

02:17:53.800 This is the seat of power.

02:17:55.020 Like, its values flow downward.

02:17:56.460 It's like—

02:17:57.000 It's the top of the pyramid.

02:17:57.980 If there's some freak down the block who's just into weird stuff, whatever, you might

02:18:01.740 tell your kids to avoid that house and everything, but fine.

02:18:04.040 This is America.

02:18:04.720 We interpret, at least until Israel attacked Gaza, we interpreted the First Amendment pretty

02:18:08.760 broadly.

02:18:09.120 Um, things like that, most people still do fine.

02:18:12.600 I'm maybe not calling for that guy's arrest or anything.

02:18:14.620 You can go be a freak in his own house.

02:18:17.300 But you're not participating in the conversation or in the decision-making process of whether

02:18:23.440 we do gender reassignment surgeries on eight-year-olds when you have pictures of dead tied up eight-year-olds

02:18:29.180 on your wall.

02:18:30.260 And I think most ordinary people, and I think people who are in the Washington world and

02:18:33.580 in a lot of these elite circles, they just don't get how this looks to the rest of the

02:18:37.620 country.

02:18:37.700 Well, it's not just how it looks.

02:18:38.600 It's how it is.

02:18:40.360 And, you know, that kind of thinking allows you to kill a lot of people, which they do.

02:18:48.000 And so they have these conversations about, oh, we need to do this or do that.

02:18:51.700 But what you really mean is drop bombs on kids, which they do continuously.

02:18:56.540 And no one even mentions it.

02:18:59.100 So the acceptance of violence against civilians, I've only started to realize this since I left.

02:19:04.680 It's been five years.

02:19:06.240 And I'm like, that is, I mean, maybe there's a circumstance where you need to go full Dresden

02:19:11.000 on somebody.

02:19:11.620 Let's talk about it.

02:19:12.700 But they don't talk about it.

02:19:13.920 It's just like, well, we're going to, you know, we're going to bomb the Houthis and like

02:19:16.140 open the shipping lanes.

02:19:17.860 What does that mean?

02:19:19.220 Nobody cares.

02:19:19.900 Because they have a total acceptance of killing people.

02:19:25.540 One of the reasons I left the Department of Defense, you know, I used to work on air and

02:19:29.360 ballistic missile defense systems for a long time with the DOD.

02:19:31.920 And I would go all over the world, work with our allies, work on American base.

02:19:36.600 And I go into American ships on deployment with them sometimes when they were in hotspots so

02:19:40.160 that they had like a real expert on in case something bad happened with one of their defense

02:19:44.120 systems.

02:19:45.280 And a lot of times I'd be on a little destroyer and I don't think I'm divulging any classified

02:19:50.420 information here or anything.

02:19:51.520 And honestly, like with something like this, like I just, I don't, I don't particularly care,

02:19:55.000 I guess.

02:19:55.380 Nobody ever told me not to talk about it.

02:19:56.880 But when the Saudi war and UAE war on Yemen was going on and every day you're reading in

02:20:02.320 the paper of kids literally starving to death, of kids dying of very preventable, very treatable

02:20:09.080 diseases by the tens of thousands on a regular basis.

02:20:12.920 And we would be interdicting smugglers coming from Balochistan and other places trying to

02:20:17.500 come in and out of Yemen.

02:20:18.460 And we'd stop their dows and small boats and we'd, you know, board them and search them

02:20:22.100 and so forth.

02:20:22.740 And when this was going on, I wasn't a part of the crew.

02:20:24.800 I was a civilian Department of Defense employee.

02:20:27.560 And, but I go out on deck and I kind of watch these things go down.

02:20:30.920 And I can't tell you how many times, eventually it was one too many times, I would read one

02:20:36.460 of those stories about what was going on in Yemen.

02:20:38.480 And then we're, you know, a hundred miles off Yemen, stopping a boat that's coming into

02:20:43.760 that country that has nothing on it but medicine and watching everybody dump it into the ocean.

02:20:50.160 And then everybody kind of celebrating, like we just won another big victory, you know.

02:20:55.720 And it got to the point where, again, it was just one too many times.

02:20:58.760 I couldn't sleep at night.

02:20:59.580 And it was a big factor of why I left the job.

02:21:01.460 It's just, and I want to be very clear.

02:21:04.860 I don't indict the sailors who were carrying out the mission.

02:21:07.820 When you're in the culture, I mean, you're part of the military.

02:21:09.720 It's hard to describe to outsiders, but these were, these are guys who thought they were

02:21:12.880 fulfilling their patriotic duty.

02:21:14.120 I get it.

02:21:14.580 I get it.

02:21:15.020 But there's not a strong Christian vibe in that environment.

02:21:17.700 Not exactly.

02:21:18.660 Yeah.

02:21:18.820 It's not too welcome when you're asking people to throw medicine in the water that's on its

02:21:23.460 way to a country where kids are dying of diarrhea, you know.

02:21:26.780 And so that moral compromise, you know, the idea, the answer to that question of how could

02:21:33.080 Jeffrey Epstein, when everybody knew, everybody in elite circles knew what he had done, why

02:21:39.420 is anybody accepting an invitation to go hang out with this guy?

02:21:42.540 Why is anybody flying on the Lolita Express?

02:21:45.860 Like any of these things.

02:21:47.040 And the answer, I think, again, is you're talking about a moral environment that is very

02:21:52.800 different from the one.

02:21:53.580 There was a, there was a article in the New York Times several years ago about this French

02:21:56.820 author named Gabriel Matzneff.

02:21:58.400 This really like, there was one line in it that really shed a lot of light on this for

02:22:01.300 me.

02:22:04.020 Gabriel Matzneff was a French author, very famous, had a, had a column in Le Monde, I think,

02:22:09.240 famous novelist.

02:22:10.000 And all of his books, all of them were novels about pedophilia and painted in like a very

02:22:17.480 positive way, you know.

02:22:19.920 The book that kind of broke him through was called Under 16 Years Old, and they're all

02:22:23.640 graphic depictions of pedophile experiences.

02:22:25.720 That was the name of the book?

02:22:26.380 Yeah.

02:22:27.180 And eventually he gets busted, and he doesn't deny anything that he did when he's going through

02:22:35.000 the criminal justice process and everything.

02:22:36.700 But he is really, really angry because he's like, who do you, I could name names right

02:22:42.640 now that would bring this whole place down.

02:22:44.320 Are you kidding me?

02:22:45.360 Like, you're going to put this on just me?

02:22:47.800 And one of the things that they said in that New York Times story is they said in France,

02:22:53.600 but I would say this is, again, common, this isn't unique to France, the ruling class or

02:22:59.980 the elite classes have for a long time distinguished themselves from ordinary people.

02:23:06.700 By their adherence to a different code of morality.

02:23:10.300 Of course.

02:23:11.040 And-

02:23:11.560 The Marquis de Sade.

02:23:12.640 Yes.

02:23:13.080 And that becoming like a mark of distinction.

02:23:14.800 Because look, like, I am one of the most powerful, I'm the most powerful Democrat politician

02:23:19.720 in the country.

02:23:20.420 I can invite other people who, in their worlds, are powerful.

02:23:25.900 I can invite them over to my house and have them walk by my paintings of dead little girls,

02:23:30.520 and they're going to go home smiling.

02:23:31.940 That's what I can do.

02:23:33.300 And then you think of a guy like Jeffrey Epstein who takes it one step further and says,

02:23:36.340 I wonder what else I could get away with.

02:23:38.280 You know?

02:23:38.720 Yeah, I had one of the most interesting conversations I've ever had, I had with a very spiritually

02:23:43.560 attuned, very smart friend of mine, and I was saying, you know, I'm a man, and I hate

02:23:48.920 lying, and I just want to be honest about it.

02:23:50.540 Like, people do, you know, bad sexual stuff, and I don't, but you could, I don't judge that

02:23:56.520 much.

02:23:56.800 Because you're like, yeah, you know, we're all in the wrong circumstance capable of anything.

02:24:01.780 But I said to this person, I don't get the, like, underage girl thing.

02:24:05.040 That's like, they're not into it, they're kids, maybe I have too many kids or something.

02:24:09.560 I'm just, I'm not being selfish, I'm just being honest.

02:24:10.940 I just don't get that.

02:24:11.960 I don't see any appeal at all.

02:24:13.280 It's a pathological obsession.

02:24:14.680 I mean, Epstein was into girls with braces specifically.

02:24:17.700 Exactly.

02:24:18.280 So what is that?

02:24:20.260 And the conventional explanation is, maybe I'm being too honest, but I think it's, I think

02:24:24.660 this is really revealing.

02:24:26.260 Because it's not about sex, it's a spiritual thing.

02:24:29.340 And I said, what is that?

02:24:31.360 And this friend of mine said, it's the thrill of destroying innocence.

02:24:36.320 That's what it is.

02:24:37.140 Yeah.

02:24:37.740 And that is the definition of evil.

02:24:39.380 That is Satan right there.

02:24:40.300 Well, that was, I mean.

02:24:40.720 It's taking something pure.

02:24:42.140 I guess this is maybe, I'm the only person who ever thought of this.

02:24:44.440 Maybe you have already have.

02:24:45.560 I had not thought of that.

02:24:46.480 I was like, it's not just a sexual attraction.

02:24:48.280 Like, oh, I think, you know, underage girls with braces are hot.

02:24:51.180 They're not.

02:24:52.020 No normal person thinks that.

02:24:53.160 That's bizarre.

02:24:55.160 No.

02:24:55.940 The idea is that I'm destroying something that's pure.

02:24:59.380 Yeah, and throughout history.

02:25:00.780 Well, that's just, that's Satan acting.

02:25:02.440 Sorry.

02:25:02.720 Throughout history, people have looked at that as something that confers power.

02:25:05.480 That's what child sacrifice is.

02:25:06.420 Exactly!

02:25:07.160 You know?

02:25:08.240 And where people get that idea, I don't know, but it's apparently deeply ingrained enough

02:25:13.400 somewhere in there.

02:25:14.080 Well, it's not an idea.

02:25:14.540 It's a spiritual reality.

02:25:16.380 Right.

02:25:16.500 And it's like the core of the Christian message where, you know, Satan says during, at

02:25:20.800 the end of the 40 days of temptation to Christ, you know, bow down before me and I'll

02:25:24.300 give you all this power.

02:25:25.040 And that's clearly the arrangement, which is explicit or not, but it's real nonetheless,

02:25:32.540 between leaders when they kill in a wanton way, which most of them do, and when they destroy

02:25:38.860 beauty and innocence, you're doing that in exchange for power.

02:25:43.320 And it is a real trade.

02:25:44.500 Like, that's all real.

02:25:45.700 It's totally real.

02:25:46.260 You do become more powerful, actually.

02:25:47.540 In a way, the Epsteins of the world, the people who are just really pathological, you know,

02:25:52.720 everybody kind of knows and accepts that there are Jeffrey Dahmers out there.

02:25:55.660 They're just people who have broken minds, who do things that none of us can understand.

02:26:00.420 I think for me and for a lot of people, like, the more important question is how does Alex

02:26:08.120 Acosta not resign in protest when he's told to drop this case?

02:26:11.540 And how does he wind up labor secretary?

02:26:14.740 How does every person, I mean, DC is the most cutthroat town in the country.

02:26:20.160 They will take anything out of context if they have to, to destroy you.

02:26:24.060 Oh, I know.

02:26:24.580 And you got this guy who's literally displaying pictures of dead kids on his wall, never even

02:26:29.440 comes up.

02:26:30.000 Like, it's all just normal.

02:26:30.960 It's all good.

02:26:31.780 And you say, like, the people that are more interesting to me are the, quote unquote,

02:26:35.580 ordinary-ish people who were going to that party and thinking that what they're looking

02:26:40.140 at is normal.

02:26:40.700 So let's get into some of the specifics.

02:26:44.280 Subsequent after Epstein gets out of his fake jail sentence in the county jail, is that what

02:26:50.280 it was?

02:26:50.720 Yeah, county jail, yeah.

02:26:51.620 Yeah, county jail, where he's just spending the night, six days a week.

02:26:56.260 Oh, and by the way, the West Palm, or rather, it was a private investigator that was hired

02:27:00.780 by the victim's lawyers who was watching him during that period of time.

02:27:04.300 He would go all sorts of places, you know, and even after his jail, it was supposed to be

02:27:08.440 two years.

02:27:08.800 He served 13 months.

02:27:09.840 After that, he was on probation.

02:27:11.720 And he was on probation.

02:27:12.700 You're supposed to report all your travels.

02:27:14.960 He would leave the country.

02:27:15.820 He would go to Paris.

02:27:16.700 He would go to the Virgin Islands.

02:27:18.180 He would leave the state.

02:27:19.580 They documented him doing this.

02:27:20.980 They would go to the authorities, these private investigators and lawyers, and say, look, we

02:27:24.060 got pictures.

02:27:24.580 We got this.

02:27:25.040 We got that.

02:27:25.560 They don't care.

02:27:26.460 It was fine.

02:27:26.900 That's unbelievable.

02:27:28.920 I mean, ask anybody.

02:27:29.840 I happen to know a lot of people who have been on parole or probation, and boy, they're

02:27:33.380 very afraid of violating it because you wind up back in a halfway house or in prison, but

02:27:38.680 he wasn't afraid at all.

02:27:39.660 So has anyone ever been punished for that?

02:27:41.760 That seems on par with the sex stuff, like as a crime.

02:27:46.840 If you're a public official entrusted with upholding our system of law and you ignore

02:27:53.280 it for whatever reason on Epstein's behalf, like you should be punished for that.

02:27:56.380 Has anyone ever been punished?

02:27:57.720 Yeah.

02:27:58.280 You know, the excuse that I was just following orders only stops working when you lose the

02:28:03.660 war.

02:28:04.280 You know, as long as that doesn't happen, then that excuse holds up.

02:28:08.160 You know, everybody passes it to the person upstairs.

02:28:10.540 Wow, it's that deep.

02:28:11.180 And eventually gets to a level that that person has enough juice to just shut the question

02:28:15.940 down altogether, you know?

02:28:17.240 Say that again.

02:28:18.160 The excuse, I'll say it for you.

02:28:19.640 The excuse that I was just following orders only stops working when you lose the war.

02:28:23.760 Yeah.

02:28:24.580 Yeah.

02:28:24.900 So as long as your party or culture or organization or whatever it is, the structure, the power

02:28:32.200 structure, as long as you're still in power, you never have to answer these questions because

02:28:35.820 like who's going to make you?

02:28:37.060 Yeah.

02:28:37.260 And don't underestimate the-

02:28:38.380 It's kind of what we're facing right now.

02:28:39.400 Don't underestimate the ability of the human mind to, like if you are an ordinary person

02:28:45.460 who joined the Department of Justice and you're a prosecutor and you're being told to drop

02:28:49.200 this case against this guy who is a major predator, who's harming girls on the regular,

02:28:55.400 you're being told to give him, to drop this case.

02:28:58.080 But you're a normal person.

02:29:00.080 You're a person who joined the Department of Justice to go fight crime, gosh darn it,

02:29:02.980 you know?

02:29:04.780 But you got a family.

02:29:06.280 You got tuition to pay.

02:29:07.580 You got to put food on your kid's table.

02:29:09.400 And you got to balance all that out against whether or not you're going to be able to

02:29:13.320 sleep at night.

02:29:14.120 And in order for you to be able to sleep at night, the human mind is very, very adaptable,

02:29:19.760 you know?

02:29:20.960 Even like minor things.

02:29:22.200 I mean, for you to be able, not you personally, the royal, we, you know, we drive to church

02:29:26.880 on Sundays and we pass under an overpass and there's a bunch of just completely destitute,

02:29:31.620 homeless people laying on the ground when, you know, I think that the right answer is

02:29:36.600 like, oh, there's my church today.

02:29:37.960 You know, I'm going to go deal with this and do what I can here.

02:29:40.540 That's church today.

02:29:42.540 But we have to tell ourselves a lot of stories to be able to just drive past that and drive

02:29:46.820 home and go to breakfast and still think of ourselves as human beings.

02:29:50.080 And the mind's very, very, very good at coming up with stories like that for ourselves.

02:29:53.300 So if you remember, for example, this was during the Afghanistan war, there was an army

02:29:58.500 captain, his name slips my mind at this point, but he's a hero in my book, but he actually

02:30:04.480 got kicked out of the army.

02:30:05.760 They eventually reinstated him, I think, but initially with discipline, kicked out of the

02:30:09.340 army because he came upon an Afghan army commander or police official, I can't remember which one

02:30:14.360 it was, raping a little boy and he beat the hell out of him.

02:30:17.680 And he got in trouble for that.

02:30:18.880 He got kicked out of the army for doing that.

02:30:20.560 And then the rest of the soldiers that went to Afghanistan were given stand downs and told

02:30:24.760 that like, look, this practice called bachabazi.

02:30:27.440 Yes, it's horrible.

02:30:28.280 It's awful.

02:30:28.820 We are not here to reform these people's culture.

02:30:30.860 We've got an enemy we're trying to fight here, a counterinsurgency.

02:30:33.880 If we start stepping in every time something like this happens, it's going to undermine

02:30:36.900 the effort.

02:30:37.980 And so you guys are just going to have to look the other way when you come across a grown

02:30:42.320 man raping a little boy.

02:30:43.880 How about no?

02:30:44.520 And so, you know, it's like, especially when, you know, if you think back, like there were

02:30:51.520 instances where we sent troops to remote Afghan villages to go put down, violently put down

02:30:57.320 uprisings that had happened because we told them they have to have a certain number of

02:31:01.680 women on their village council and that's not their culture.

02:31:04.240 And so we're willing to alienate the local population to impose feminism on a remote village.

02:31:08.880 But, you know, the child rape, that's just kind of a cultural thing.

02:31:12.860 You know, the Taliban had banned that and actually had death squads roaming the country,

02:31:16.720 killing people who did it.

02:31:18.680 And imagine the propaganda the Taliban were able to put out.

02:31:21.700 Like we had destroyed all the poppy fields and we banned this practice of bachabazi, like

02:31:27.280 systematic child rape.

02:31:28.340 The Americans come in, both of those things come back in force.

02:31:30.960 It was a New York Times article, hilarious the way it was framed, because it was an article

02:31:34.960 about look at what the evil Taliban are doing, where they were manipulating these boys who

02:31:40.040 were being kept as sex slaves at police checkpoints and things and manipulating them into, you

02:31:44.760 know, shooting their their commanders and their guards and then coming out and fighting for

02:31:48.060 the Taliban manipulates like I read it and I was like, it sounds to me like they're liberating

02:31:51.720 these boys, but OK.

02:31:54.180 And one of the things that is said in there is it was so widespread that they looked at like

02:31:58.640 three or four hundred police checkpoints.

02:32:00.600 Every single one of them, every one of them had a stable of little boys that when when

02:32:07.160 often when people would get hired to become an officer at a and get assigned to a place,

02:32:12.400 they would often demand bachabazi boys at the at their checkpoints or the stations that they

02:32:17.700 were assigned to as like a perk of the job.

02:32:20.020 And we went along with that.

02:32:21.680 And it's like, you know, and so that's how somebody at the Department of Justice or in the

02:32:25.820 intelligence community can say, yeah, you know, this guy in his free time, he does

02:32:29.600 this, he does that.

02:32:30.540 But look, whatever.

02:32:31.480 We're trying to fight a war.

02:32:32.640 I get it.

02:32:33.060 He's our money launderer.

02:32:33.780 I get it.

02:32:34.220 And that's how they explain it to themselves.

02:32:35.660 It's a really rotten, decadent culture, I would say, at the at the top.

02:32:41.020 And as evidence of that, Epstein gets out of jail in 2008 ish, nine.

02:32:47.200 And then between then and 2019, so 10 or 11 years, he's like roaming around.

02:32:53.760 And we have records of like a lot of famous people hanging with him on his plane on the

02:33:00.000 island during those years, correct?

02:33:01.780 Yes.

02:33:02.300 Yeah.

02:33:02.760 Post conviction, post public humiliation.

02:33:06.760 Riding the Lolita Express.

02:33:08.320 Yeah.

02:33:08.780 Yeah.

02:33:08.980 But that was after.

02:33:10.500 Yeah.

02:33:10.920 Everybody knew.

02:33:11.580 And so who are those people?

02:33:12.960 Can you name some?

02:33:14.500 A lot of the ones that have been in the news, you know, Bill Clinton obviously wrote, I think

02:33:19.640 he's on record riding Epstein's plane 26 times.

02:33:24.100 And just for reference on that, one of Epstein's buddies and partners in crime was a French guy

02:33:29.960 named Jean-Luc Brunel, who ran a modeling and talent scouting agency and used it the way

02:33:34.800 that Jeffrey Epstein would use Victoria's Secret.

02:33:36.920 And they would also use it together.

02:33:38.700 In fact, Jeffrey Epstein provided the seed money for the agency.

02:33:41.600 And they would bring girls in and use that environment to sexually abuse them and take

02:33:46.000 advantage of them.

02:33:46.680 And, you know, he was when Jeffrey Epstein was in jail for those 13 months.

02:33:51.640 In 13 months, Jean-Luc Brunel visited him 70 times.

02:33:55.500 Okay.

02:33:55.780 He didn't ride on his plane as often as Bill Clinton did.

02:33:59.640 Right.

02:33:59.920 So that's just a reference point.

02:34:01.500 And Jean-Luc Brunel, by the way, after Epstein got arrested, immediately went into hiding

02:34:05.060 and then got caught trying to cross the border to flee France, got put in jail.

02:34:09.300 And I will give you one guess and one guess only what happened to him.

02:34:13.640 And everybody watching got it right.

02:34:17.600 He hanged himself in his cell.

02:34:19.100 No, he didn't.

02:34:19.820 Yes, he did.

02:34:22.060 Wow.

02:34:22.540 How did all the people watching get that right on the first try?

02:34:25.520 You're making that up.

02:34:26.220 I am not making it up.

02:34:27.620 I am not making it up.

02:34:28.680 Just like Robert Maxwell killed himself, just like Jeffrey Epstein did.

02:34:31.900 Just like the DC madam.

02:34:32.920 So let's get to the sort of terminus of the story of his life, which is his death.

02:34:39.700 And what do we know about that?

02:34:43.240 And what don't we know about it?

02:34:44.440 Yeah.

02:34:44.600 So one of the interesting things about the whole Epstein story is you see a lot of all

02:34:48.540 the story we've been telling tonight about money laundering, intelligence agency connections

02:34:53.240 in the 80s and 90s.

02:34:54.960 Like a lot of that stuff is, again, it's a pile of circumstantial evidence, but it's a big

02:34:59.000 enough pile that you can really draw a pretty firm narrative with it.

02:35:02.000 When you get to the, say, 2010s, we don't have nearly as much sort of solid information

02:35:08.100 on crimes being committed or high level things going on.

02:35:10.640 Now, one of the things we do have is he was very, very close with Ehud Barak, former Israeli

02:35:15.080 prime minister, and he was the head of military intelligence for quite a long time.

02:35:22.740 In fact, he was head of military intelligence back when Jeffrey Epstein, Adnan Khashoggi, these

02:35:27.540 people would have been operating, you know, back in their heyday.

02:35:30.780 He was very close with him.

02:35:32.640 He was photographed going into Jeffrey Epstein's house one time, like in a disguise.

02:35:37.240 He stayed over for not overnight, but for longer stretches for a long time.

02:35:42.460 Jeffrey Epstein provided the seed money for a tech company that Ehud Barak started up with

02:35:47.600 a bunch of guys who were veterans of Unit 8200, which is like the Israeli NSA, basically a tech

02:35:53.480 company.

02:35:55.540 And when Epstein was in control of the Wexner Foundation, he gave Ehud Barak $2.3 million

02:36:02.660 to write two papers, one of which apparently got written, but the other never even got written.

02:36:09.360 They never asked for their money back.

02:36:10.460 So just gave him $2.3 million.

02:36:12.100 So very, very tight, close, big money changing hands, you know, no allegations of sexual abuse

02:36:19.440 or assault.

02:36:19.860 There are victims who say that they were forced to have sex with Ehud Barak, but, you know,

02:36:24.680 I haven't vetted those claims or anything, and I don't want to make that claim.

02:36:30.180 But so, you know, that's one of the things we do have.

02:36:33.960 But beyond that, you have a lot of celebrities, a lot of sort of political figures like Bill Clinton,

02:36:38.180 and a lot of it is sort of framed and does look like it's sort of a rehab tour.

02:36:42.320 You know, he's giving a lot of money away to primarily scientific causes, things like

02:36:46.400 that, trying to build, rebuild public goodwill, essentially.

02:36:50.500 And it was the reason he was arrested again is because the lawyers, God bless them, of a

02:36:57.960 bunch of the victims from the first case, you know, they were really, really, really upset

02:37:02.160 about what happened, especially the fact that, you know, it took a lot of courage for these

02:37:06.720 girls to come out.

02:37:07.900 These people were terrifying.

02:37:09.940 Ghislaine Maxwell would tell them when they tried to get away that, you know how easy

02:37:14.460 it is to get rid of a girl like you?

02:37:16.520 You know, these are the stories that the victims tell.

02:37:18.860 They would threaten their lives.

02:37:19.880 They would threaten their families.

02:37:21.080 And, you know, they're watching this guy get protected at the highest levels.

02:37:25.620 They're watching him get just a nothing sentence when, you know, they all know what they

02:37:31.940 did and the number and the case against him.

02:37:34.520 And so they think he's an incredibly powerful guy.

02:37:36.280 They're terrified.

02:37:37.040 It took a lot of courage to come out.

02:37:38.380 And so when they went and cut a deal behind the backs of not only the lead prosecutor,

02:37:41.940 but the victims and the victim's lawyers, the thing was signed, done, deal before anybody

02:37:47.480 below like Alex Acosta's level even knew about it.

02:37:51.240 Again, including the Department of Justice lead prosecutor.

02:37:55.140 They were really angry, you know, because they had been telling these girls, look, I know

02:37:58.260 it's scary, but you got to do this and don't worry.

02:38:01.100 We got this guy.

02:38:02.120 He is going away for the rest of his life.

02:38:03.700 You don't have anything to worry about.

02:38:05.140 And then to have that happen behind their backs, they were really angry.

02:38:07.860 And so they kept on the case and they said, look, there is something out there called

02:38:11.600 the Victims' Rights Act.

02:38:13.320 You are legally bound to inform victims when you do something like this.

02:38:16.700 You did not do that.

02:38:17.800 This deal you made is not valid.

02:38:19.680 And eventually a federal judge found that indeed the government had engaged.

02:38:22.900 These are the words of the federal judge, had engaged in a conspiracy with Jeffrey Epstein

02:38:27.240 to make this deal, this illegitimate, illegal deal.

02:38:30.660 And so it got stricken and that allowed him to be rearrested.

02:38:34.080 And so that's why he was arrested in 2019 after, I guess it was-

02:38:37.760 By the feds.

02:38:38.540 By the feds.

02:38:39.280 As he was coming back from Paris, his plane landed and Bill Barr's Department of Justice,

02:38:44.180 Bill Barr had just taken over the Department of Justice in, I think it was February 2019 or

02:38:48.620 so right after the midterms, and he has him arrested.

02:38:52.600 And then everybody kind of knows the rough outline story after that.

02:38:56.040 He's in jail.

02:38:57.900 There was the story of him being assaulted apparently in his cell by this gorilla that

02:39:02.480 they put him in there.

02:39:03.680 Well, you see the picture of the dude that they put him in with.

02:39:06.440 He was a corrupt NYPD police officer who was in for a double murder of two drug dealers

02:39:13.620 that he was offing for another drug deal, something like that.

02:39:16.140 He's like a giant bodybuilder dude, just a monster of a guy.

02:39:20.600 And they put little Jeffrey Epstein, a guy who's, for all of his evils, not a violent

02:39:26.180 criminal, in a cell with that guy.

02:39:27.640 That guy assaults him.

02:39:29.460 And then he ends up dead under circumstances that have been gone over again and again.

02:39:36.940 And there is insane and ridiculous and implausible, as everybody says.

02:39:40.920 I mean, for years, we were always told, this is just until very recently when they released

02:39:44.120 that footage of the hallway outside his cell, that there was no footage, that all three

02:39:48.760 of the cameras that were relevant to that area of the jail somehow had malfunctioned or

02:39:54.700 gone out of service at the same time.

02:39:56.380 And the guards who were on duty that night, you know, they had fallen asleep.

02:40:00.920 And the pages of their logbook for the pertinent time period somehow had gone missing.

02:40:06.400 And just all of these things, you're like, come on, man.

02:40:09.280 And like, and a lot of times people say like, you know, because they have this James Bond

02:40:13.940 idea of, you know, these kind of things.

02:40:16.080 And like, like, if these were really, if this was really some kind of a murder or a, you

02:40:21.620 know, just maybe not a murder, but Jeffrey Epstein was told, you know, the best course of action

02:40:28.340 for you is if you go ahead and commit suicide now, you know, the other options we're giving

02:40:33.820 you are way, way worse.

02:40:34.860 The guards are going to be off, you know, sleeping for a little while, so take care of

02:40:38.220 yourself, whatever it was.

02:40:42.400 You know, like you have, you have this set of circumstances that's entirely implausible

02:40:48.100 and you have pretty much everybody who knew him, including his lawyers, you know, his

02:40:51.660 lawyers immediately and still to this day, as far as I know, make the point.

02:40:54.960 They're like, look, this was a guy who, whose hubris was off the charts.

02:40:58.920 He had already gotten away with this once.

02:41:01.020 He was now under arrest with a president that, you know, you know, I think personally, we'll

02:41:10.540 see what, what happens.

02:41:11.760 You know, I don't, I just don't personally buy into the accusations of Trump having to

02:41:17.620 do with Epstein just doesn't, doesn't strike me as the personality type that would do that,

02:41:23.020 that kind of thing.

02:41:24.600 But, you know, there are pictures of him out there.

02:41:26.260 There was a relationship out there that maybe could kind of be leveraged, doesn't want

02:41:29.700 embarrassment.

02:41:30.160 There were, in other words, there were strings to pull.

02:41:32.600 Like it wasn't as if his appeals were exhausted and he's going off to prison tomorrow where,

02:41:38.800 you know, you're going to have a bunch of boss crackers waiting for this new Jewish pedophile

02:41:42.620 that just showed up and he's just going to kill himself.

02:41:44.780 He had so many cards to play and he had gotten away with it before.

02:41:49.500 And nobody who was close to him during that time, even including his lawyers, believes

02:41:53.540 that he committed suicide.

02:41:54.660 Well, one lawyer, I spoke to his lawyers about it and one said to me, well, he thought he

02:41:59.640 was going to get out on appeal in days.

02:42:03.600 So it's interesting that the Bureau of Prisons, Department of Justice has never released the

02:42:10.880 names of the inmates who were in the lockup with him.

02:42:14.140 He was supposedly in the cell by himself, but there were 11, I think in that range, other

02:42:20.040 inmates in the cell block, which was the maximum security cell block within the Federal Detention

02:42:24.720 Center, the MCC.

02:42:26.280 We don't know who they are.

02:42:27.200 And we know that a bunch were transferred out shortly after, several were anyway.

02:42:31.960 And somehow we can't know their names because HIPAA or something.

02:42:34.940 I mean, it doesn't make any sense.

02:42:36.680 The guards who fell asleep were not really punished.

02:42:39.980 They lied about the tape.

02:42:42.480 And most damning of all, Bill Barr participated in the cover-up.

02:42:48.020 I mean, flat out, you could read his memoir.

02:42:49.600 And in it, he says, as soon as this happened, my first concern was people would think he

02:42:53.760 was murdered.

02:42:54.920 Really, you're the chief law enforcement officer.

02:42:57.160 You should hold open every possibility, including the most obvious, which was he was

02:43:00.880 murdered.

02:43:01.220 So if your goal from the very first moment was to convince people of something you didn't

02:43:04.360 know was true, you're not pursuing the truth.

02:43:06.620 You are, in fact, by definition, participating in a cover-up.

02:43:08.620 That's my view.

02:43:09.900 I'd love to know the other side of it.

02:43:11.800 Bill Barr won't talk to me about it, though.

02:43:13.620 He's attacked me for saying it.

02:43:15.300 But Bill Barr is participating in the cover-up.

02:43:17.260 So what the hell is that?

02:43:19.400 Yeah.

02:43:19.760 And again, to go back to what we covered earlier, I mean, with Bill Barr's history of covering

02:43:25.500 things up for the intelligence community, both the Iran-Contra thing as attorney general

02:43:28.900 in the early 90s and as the CIA liaison, legal liaison to Congress during the Church and

02:43:33.280 Pipe Committee hearings, there's a history there of covering things up that have embarrassing

02:43:37.880 ties to the intelligence community.

02:43:39.780 And one of the ways that, like, I don't think Bill Barr, like, if he was your neighbor,

02:43:43.700 I think he's probably a good neighbor.

02:43:45.140 If he was never—

02:43:46.560 Well, I know him.

02:43:47.120 I've always thought he was a super nice guy, friendly guy.

02:43:49.300 Yeah, I'm sure he's like—everybody who knows him thinks he's a good man, and, you

02:43:52.640 know, they're—

02:43:53.560 What matters is how you use your power.

02:43:55.600 That's how you're judged.

02:43:56.540 And again, to go back to how people justify things to themselves, you know, a lot of people—most

02:44:02.660 people are not comfortable thinking of themselves as evil human beings or as people who are participating

02:44:07.920 in doing evil.

02:44:09.320 And so they tell themselves stories to make it not that way.

02:44:12.140 And, you know, again, to me, a pervert like Jeffrey Epstein is, like, one small part of

02:44:18.900 this story.

02:44:19.420 To me, the whole—the whole constellation of forces around him that kind of coalesce to

02:44:24.420 protect him and confuse the issue, and to this day, is still—I mean, when I said Jeffrey

02:44:29.020 Epstein has become a proxy for other things that are important, I mean, this is something—

02:44:32.960 if there's one message I would—like, if there's anybody at the White House or anywhere

02:44:36.440 close to those people watching right now that they need to understand, is the reason this

02:44:40.820 is important to the base is not because they think there's this Jewish pedophile who worked

02:44:44.520 for the Israeli Mossad and they want him held.

02:44:46.220 It has nothing to do with that.

02:44:48.160 It's a proxy for, can we hold these people accountable?

02:44:51.360 Like, Donald Trump's presidency in general, you know, people might have favored the trade

02:44:57.220 policy.

02:44:57.960 Certainly they were—you know, the immigration thing was important, all that kind of stuff.

02:45:00.820 But really what it was is, man, these people have gotten so out of control and so out of

02:45:05.500 touch with the rest of us and so unconcerned with what's going on with the rest of us.

02:45:10.280 We just got to bring in a wrecking ball from the outside who's going to go in there and

02:45:14.980 shake things up and tear this thing down.

02:45:16.680 People are not listening to us because we're irrelevant.

02:45:20.360 We don't have any say in our government.

02:45:23.420 There is no democratic control in the United States.

02:45:26.160 The population's views don't really matter.

02:45:28.960 That's the feeling that people have.

02:45:30.740 And this whole story that you've told for two hours and 37 minutes confirms that they

02:45:35.180 are right to be concerned.

02:45:36.220 Because what you're describing is a pretty organized, informally organized anyway, force

02:45:42.520 or series of forces that operate outside and above the U.S. government and every other

02:45:48.220 global government, or most of them anyway, and by definition.

02:45:52.460 So the U.S. attorney, the federal prosecutor, the chief federal prosecutor in one of our biggest

02:45:56.240 states is told, back off, and does.

02:45:59.460 And everybody beneath him does also.

02:46:01.500 So like, what is that?

02:46:02.660 That it's a force bigger than the U.S. government.

02:46:06.380 And I just think that can't continue.

02:46:09.460 That can't continue.

02:46:10.120 You can't have that.

02:46:10.960 And the nature of the crime, again, being that one crime that if you polled Americans

02:46:15.700 said, what's the worst crime?

02:46:17.080 I think it would make the top of every list of every poll that you could run, however

02:46:21.060 you worded it.

02:46:21.780 The fact that that's the crime, you know, it makes it so that, you know, when they tell

02:46:26.060 you we, you know, we bombed a car in Kabul and killed this family of 10, you know, during

02:46:33.440 the Afghanistan withdrawal, we can't really get into all of the details because of sources

02:46:38.040 and methods and this and that and so forth.

02:46:40.040 People will be like, okay, you know, that I don't really like that, but fine.

02:46:44.960 But a child's innocence, if anything is sacred, a child's innocence is sacred and sacred means

02:46:50.920 there is no compromise with regard to that.

02:46:54.140 If you have to, if exposing the information about somebody like Jeffrey Epstein means that

02:47:01.900 a Dr. Strangelove style nuclear device goes off and destroys the planet too bad, let justice

02:47:07.320 be done.

02:47:07.940 Even if the heavens fall on something like that, because the crime is just, it's beyond the

02:47:12.120 pale, it's something that for all normal people, they say, whatever your excuse is, you know,

02:47:17.940 national security, first of all, what is this guy who's a pedophile have to do with national

02:47:22.040 security, but whatever your excuse is, I've wondered since day one, what does that do with

02:47:26.780 national security?

02:47:27.720 Yeah.

02:47:28.020 Whatever it is, the answer is no.

02:47:31.240 Okay.

02:47:31.500 We have, we have a, a, a journalist who has a source and this has not been refuted by the

02:47:38.400 people involved saying that he belonged to intelligence.

02:47:40.500 We have all these ties over the years that provide more circumstantial evidence to back

02:47:44.400 that.

02:47:44.880 If the U S government had anything to do with this guy, if foreign governments operating

02:47:49.300 on our soil had anything to do with this guy, we don't care what your excuse is.

02:47:54.840 We're talking about a man who was raping children.

02:47:58.560 And if our government, the people who pass laws that we have to, we have to follow or else

02:48:03.300 have, have men with guns show up to our house and drag us off to a cage somewhere, the men

02:48:07.480 who make those rules, men and women who make those rules, uh, they don't, this is something

02:48:12.700 that we have to draw a line in the sand and say, this is too far.

02:48:15.700 You, you are going to dump all of this and we don't care what happens.

02:48:18.440 We want an explanation of what was going on here.

02:48:21.240 And there's just, we're not going to take no for an answer on it.

02:48:23.540 This is too far.

02:48:24.420 It's just too emblematic.

02:48:25.620 You know, it's, and it's, and it's too severe of a crime.

02:48:28.240 And I hope that people, uh, I really hope that people will keep that mentality and not

02:48:33.040 let this die until we get a good satisfactory answer on what was going on.

02:48:37.580 Amen.

02:48:38.540 To that and everything that you have said, I think in a really measured, restrained way,

02:48:43.900 I also notice about you, as I've noticed before your total determination to see things

02:48:48.880 through the eyes of the people you're talking about, whether you agree or disagree with them,

02:48:52.020 you add humanity to history, which is why I value your historical analysis.

02:48:56.840 I think it's, it's the right way.

02:48:58.240 It's the humane way.

02:48:59.840 Um, my last question, and I just can't help this because I'm not as good a person as you

02:49:04.960 are, but why, so Mark Levin described you as a propagandist, a demagogue, saying you shouldn't

02:49:11.460 have a platform, you should be silenced.

02:49:14.260 You know, I've listened to you now for two hours and 40 minutes.

02:49:16.920 I wonder what about what you just said would make Mark Levin call for you to be silenced

02:49:24.180 and call you a criminal.

02:49:26.140 I mean, here you are arguing against child molesties.

02:49:28.020 You're not attacking anybody, certainly on the basis of like religion or ethnicity or

02:49:31.320 anything like that.

02:49:32.120 You're not even attacking any governments.

02:49:33.900 You're, but that's my read on what you're saying.

02:49:36.560 Why would that, your two hour and 40 minute description of this news story, why would that make

02:49:43.860 someone like Mark Levin so angry?

02:49:45.900 I mean, I think when you see the constellation of, of commentators and personalities that have

02:49:52.200 kind of immediately jumped to the side of there's nothing to see here.

02:49:55.880 It's all over with.

02:49:56.620 Let's drop the case.

02:49:58.140 Um, you know, it's all the same people who were telling us we were traitors if we didn't

02:50:01.400 want to bomb Iran just a few weeks ago.

02:50:03.400 And so I think, and here's the funny thing about it is I think that people like Mark,

02:50:07.800 people like Ben Shapiro, a lot of these folks are actually, they're afraid.

02:50:11.500 They, they, they have something like the pop understanding of what Jeffrey Epstein was

02:50:14.700 about in their heads.

02:50:15.540 And they're afraid that exposing the case will show his ties to Israeli intelligence.

02:50:21.160 I actually have a much more conservative view on the whole thing than they probably do.

02:50:25.300 You know, I, where I don't think they have as much to be afraid of in that sense.

02:50:28.880 I think he did work for Israeli intelligence, but I think he was a freelancer who did work

02:50:32.340 for the CIA, did work for a lot of intelligence agencies, probably independent criminals.

02:50:37.000 It sounds like you're right.

02:50:38.140 I mean, this is not just about, I agree with you.

02:50:41.180 It's clearly not just about Israel.

02:50:43.180 It's about a lot.

02:50:43.740 It is in part about Israel, but it's not only about Israel.

02:50:45.820 It's about our government.

02:50:47.160 They're the ones who covered up the freaking crimes in 2007.

02:50:50.980 Yes.

02:50:51.540 But that's not a problem.

02:50:52.940 Like we can say that that's totally cool.

02:50:56.240 Um, it says a lot about Levin and his priorities, his reaction to this, I would say.

02:51:02.040 And I would say anyone who doesn't want to get to the bottom of this, like, um, what, why?

02:51:06.460 I mean, there is no answer that's going to make sense to anybody that has sat through three

02:51:13.500 hours of this conversation, you know, already, because I, you know, and to me, I don't think

02:51:17.840 there is a good answer to that question.

02:51:20.200 The, the, this, we should not compromise on this.

02:51:22.900 You know, we will get a satisfactory answer or we will burn this place down figuratively.

02:51:27.660 Don't come knock on my door, FBI, but like, you know, that, that we're not going to let

02:51:31.960 this go, that this is a line in the sand.

02:51:34.080 You will be honest with us about this because if you can't, the nature of this crime, if

02:51:39.740 you can't, then it means that you, this thing cannot be fixed, that you cannot be honest

02:51:44.260 with us about anything.

02:51:45.140 We can't trust anything you say.

02:51:46.520 If you're willing to lie to us, to our faces, when there is so much implausible, ridiculous

02:51:52.060 information out there, lie to us, to our faces in such a brazen way about a guy who

02:51:58.480 was raping children, like if you'll do that, then there's just, there's nothing more to

02:52:03.180 talk about with the ruling class, you know?

02:52:06.880 I can't improve on that.

02:52:08.580 Daryl Cooper, thank you.

02:52:10.220 I'm always grateful when you come.

02:52:12.040 This is the second time.

02:52:12.700 I hope it won't be the last.

02:52:13.580 Thank you very much.

02:52:15.200 Always a pleasure.

02:52:20.440 We want to thank you for watching us on Spotify, a company that we use every day.

02:52:24.380 We know the people who run it, good people.

02:52:25.900 While you're here, do us a favor, hit follow and tap the bell so you never miss an episode.

02:52:32.380 We have real conversations, news, things that actually matter, telling the truth always.

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02:52:40.500 We appreciate it.

02:52:41.060 Thanks for watching.

02:52:41.600 We appreciate it.

The Tucker Carlson Show - July 18, 2025

Tucker Carlson and Darryl Cooper on the True History of Jeffrey Epstein and Ongoing Cover-Up

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