The Tucker Carlson Show - Tucker Carlson LIVE： The End of Free Speech

00:00:00.080 Hey, it's Tucker Carlson. Charlie Kirk was assassinated two weeks ago today in an event that clearly is going to change American history, changed a lot of people inside.

00:00:11.500 And there was a moment in the first week where you thought to yourself, this is going to have effects. A lot of them are going to be bad, but some of them are probably going to be good because Charlie's life was itself so good.

00:00:23.180 Charlie Kirk spent his life above all trying to live the Christian gospel and trying to live the principle of free speech, which is to say he talked and he also listened.

00:00:34.040 He was most famous for traveling from college campus to college campus and asking people who disagreed with him to confront him.

00:00:41.000 Ask me anything, he said, and he sat there patiently as they did, and they often attacked him.

00:00:45.860 They almost always expressed views he found repugnant, and almost always he took those views seriously and answered the questions put to him.

00:00:52.580 as crisply and honestly as he could. That's what he spent his life doing, and in fact, he was assassinated while doing that.

00:01:00.220 So if there's any lesson from Charlie Kirk's life, well, the first lesson would probably be sincere Christians tend to be really decent people.

00:01:08.600 Maybe we should have more of them.

00:01:10.600 But the more secular temporal lesson is that free speech is a virtue.

00:01:15.900 It is, in fact, the foundation of this country, not only its laws, but its culture, and that we should protect it.

00:01:22.220 And maybe if we seek to honor Charlie Kirk, we should emulate it.

00:01:26.000 Maybe we should begin by asking our politicians to do what Charlie Kirk spent his life doing, which is to answer the question.

00:01:32.880 Just calmly answer the question. We'll ask you anything, and then you go ahead and answer it to the best of your ability.

00:01:37.740 Like, for example, who blew up the Nord Stream pipeline?

00:01:40.500 What happened to all the money we sent to Ukraine?

00:01:42.480 Why haven't you released all the JFK files?

00:01:44.400 Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

00:01:46.320 All the questions on your mind that slowly drive you crazy because no one will address them.

00:01:50.660 Why don't we just ask them directly to our leaders, and they get to answer.

00:01:54.640 Nothing, nothing would honor Charlie Kirk's memory more than that.

00:01:58.560 That is free speech in action.

00:02:01.560 But nothing like that happened.

00:02:02.940 Instead, the only real conversation we've had about free speech has been about Jimmy Kimmel, who is hardly a champion of free speech.

00:02:11.080 In fact, just the opposite.

00:02:12.220 He's a nasty little censor, talentless, a person who has many times on camera over the years chuckled and applauded as other people, his political enemies, have been silenced.

00:02:22.660 A guy who has so little influence in American society and so little audience, he was on his way out anyway, has the job only as a result of some kind of weird political affirmative action where people who agree with studio heads get to have late night jobs. 0.76

00:02:35.700 He is hardly the person who should be taking up the cause of free speech or become a symbol of it because, of course, he's the symbol of censorship and has been for most of his career.

00:02:45.900 And the other thing that we saw, maybe even more distressing than that, was politicians turn not only against free speech, but actively and openly announced efforts to censor the American population and use the memory of Charlie Kirk to do it as their justification.

00:03:06.640 There are many examples we could pick.

00:03:08.420 Here's a particularly raw one.

00:03:10.640 This is from Congressman Moskowitz, just in the House of Representatives, eight days after Charlie Kirk died.

00:03:17.080 Here it is.

00:03:18.180 It's crazy what's going on on the social media platforms.

00:03:23.460 There are so many conspiracy theories on what's going on with Charlie Kirk.

00:03:27.640 Israel assassinated him, right?

00:03:30.300 There are conspiracy theories about your personal social life all day.

00:03:35.100 It is totally rampant.

00:03:37.620 Big names on the right.

00:03:40.640 Candace Owens, right?

00:03:43.720 Talking about how the what's been released as far as the dialogue between the perpetrator and his roommate is manufactured by the FBI, manufactured by the administration.

00:03:55.580 It is totally rampant, allowing foreign governments to just perpetrate these platforms, all of these bots, all of the time to weaponize Americans.

00:04:06.640 And so if we want to do something, then we should talk about Section 230.

00:04:11.060 We should talk about how we're going to make sure that we don't let foreign governments poison our children's mind. 1.00

00:04:19.060 And so I will work with you on that, director.

00:04:21.280 I'll work with you on 230 any day.

00:04:23.080 So there is the congressman talking to the FBI director, and there's a lot there, and we'll unpack it.

00:04:29.840 But the most telling line came right in the middle, and he turns to the FBI director, and he says, they're criticizing your personal life.

00:04:35.260 They're airing conspiracy theories about your personal life.

00:04:37.960 Now, speaking for myself, I have literally no idea what the congressman was talking about.

00:04:42.940 I haven't seen that.

00:04:43.960 Doubtless it exists.

00:04:44.820 There are conspiracy theories.

00:04:45.820 Conspiracy theories about everybody and everybody's personal life.

00:04:48.200 If you're in public, people are theorizing about you on the Internet, kind of the nature of the Internet and kind of the nature of having authority.

00:04:53.800 But you'll notice that the congressman thinks this will be a compelling argument for the FBI director.

00:04:59.600 He basically just says, they're criticizing you and me, and they're not allowed to do that.

00:05:03.840 But he's not even pretending that the purpose of censoring speech, and that's what he's saying, we need to censor the speech, that the purpose of that would be protect any vulnerable group.

00:05:14.380 Vulnerable groups, no.

00:05:16.280 They're criticizing us.

00:05:17.360 They can't do that.

00:05:18.960 And then, of course, he goes on to blame unseen foreign actors.

00:05:21.860 And by the way, that's something that I think most Americans would get behind, but that the congressman is not behind at all.

00:05:26.400 If we want to take the influence of foreign nations out of our politics, most Americans would applaud. 1.00

00:05:30.960 And that would start with not taking money from their lobbies.

00:05:34.000 That would be a welcome change.

00:05:36.060 But the idea that we need to censor what you say because the people who run everything don't want to be called out or have their personal lives misdescribed to the subject of conspiracy theories, well, that's not really reform as much as it's just kind of classic old-fashioned tyranny, isn't it? 0.99

00:05:53.660 Shut up! 1.00

00:05:54.680 We have guns you don't, and we're going to make you. 1.00

00:05:57.140 And how are we going to make you?

00:05:58.060 That's the question.

00:05:58.720 So you may remember that last week the attorney general came out right after Charlie Kirk's death and said there is a distinction between speech, constitutionally protected, famously in the First Amendment and the Bill of Rights, and something called hate speech, a category that doesn't, strictly speaking, exist under the law but which a lot of people seem to believe exists.

00:06:18.620 And hate speech is never defined, like most of the most powerful words that we use to punish people, terrorism, for example, racism.

00:06:27.660 It's never actually defined.

00:06:29.320 What is that exactly?

00:06:30.080 We don't know.

00:06:30.720 And most people who understand the American story, who understand our government, who understand our culture, who care about continuing all of those things, reacted with outrage when the attorney general said that you can't pass a law that will strip from us our God-given right to say what we think is true.

00:06:58.140 She addressed it in such a ham-handed way that it was obvious to everybody exactly what she was talking about, and they reacted.

00:07:05.180 We did too.

00:07:06.640 But in real life, that will not happen.

00:07:09.780 There will not be, I can say confidently, in my lifetime, a law in the Congress that says, explicitly, any American who says something our leaders don't like, anybody who traffics into conspiracy theory about our personal lives will be shut down, fined, imprisoned.

00:07:26.760 An open, transparent censorship law will not pass through the House of Representatives or the United States Senate.

00:07:34.800 It will not be signed by the president.

00:07:36.200 Why?

00:07:36.520 Because it's just too obvious.

00:07:39.380 So instead, because censorship is coming, if these people can help it, instead, they will invoke something called Section 230.

00:07:48.560 And you're going to hear a lot more about this without question.

00:07:51.300 It's never, again, explained very well.

00:07:53.800 And the reason it's not explained is because they don't want you to know exactly what they're doing.

00:07:56.860 So let me just give you the Cliff Notes version of what Section 230 is.

00:07:59.720 Section 230 is a section, 230, within the 1996 Communications Decency Act, and it is the piece of legislation often credited for creating the Internet.

00:08:10.580 It's the framework that Congress came up with at the dawn of the Internet to put parameters around what this is, to protect companies as they grew, to set laws around this new technology.

00:08:22.940 And one of the laws that they made, Section 230, shields Internet providers' platforms from lawsuits.

00:08:32.300 It gives them legal liability from lawsuits on the basis of slander, obscenity, things that are on their platforms that they didn't create.

00:08:44.580 In other words, it creates a distinction between a publisher, like a newspaper, a magazine, a television network, and a platform, Google, Facebook, X.

00:08:55.620 And the distinction allows the platforms to let other people post whatever they want without getting sued for it.

00:09:04.040 They cannot be held liable.

00:09:05.740 These big companies cannot be held liable for slander, hate speech, anything, really, on their platforms.

00:09:14.860 And as a result of this law, those platforms have come to dominate news and information globally.

00:09:21.640 In fact, when we talk about censorship, nobody's talking about censoring the New York Times, the Washington Post, NBC News, because nobody cares.

00:09:27.460 All meaningful information and all meaningful social movements are influenced by social media.

00:09:34.260 So if you want to get people whipped into a frenzy, if you want to change your government, for example, you're not going to take out an ad in the New York Times.

00:09:40.480 Of course not.

00:09:41.540 You're going to get something going on the social media platforms.

00:09:44.700 So they are huge.

00:09:46.540 They are completely dominant.

00:09:48.280 Information flows almost exclusively on them.

00:09:51.900 And all of this is possible because of Section 230.

00:09:54.900 Now, there's been a pretty vigorous debate for the last 20 years over whether this is a good idea.

00:10:00.440 And there are arguments against it.

00:10:01.920 One of them is, why would Google get a liability exemption when I don't have one?

00:10:06.840 You run a business.

00:10:08.320 You're just an American citizen.

00:10:09.660 You can be sued at any time under our famously loose and destructive tort laws.

00:10:14.820 And you can go to business.

00:10:15.800 You can be bankrupt.

00:10:16.520 You can be destroyed.

00:10:18.060 They can do to you what they did.

00:10:19.100 Alex Jones, for example.

00:10:20.020 The FBI can join up with some activist group and take your business away, wreck your life.

00:10:25.420 So why should these big tech companies be exempt?

00:10:28.900 Now, that's a real argument.

00:10:31.020 It's similar to the argument about the pharma companies.

00:10:33.880 Why should vaccine makers get a shield from lawsuits?

00:10:38.400 If I make playground equipment, I'm vulnerable.

00:10:40.680 If I make the COVID vaccine, I'm not.

00:10:42.780 That's a principled argument.

00:10:44.060 But what's interesting about the 230 debate is that both parties have been on both sides of it at various times.

00:10:52.120 The Republicans, for years, were mad at the big platforms because they were censoring conservatives, which they were.

00:10:58.280 And so they often muttered about revoking 230 shield protection unless they opened their platforms to all points of view.

00:11:05.940 In other words, they wanted to use Section 230 to end censorship.

00:11:10.320 There's no reason you should get a special carve out from the U.S. government, from the Congress, if you don't treat people equally, if there's not fairness and neutrality in the way you allow opinions to be broadcast on your platform.

00:11:21.640 That seemed like a fairly reasonable position.

00:11:24.120 But things have changed.

00:11:25.520 Now you're seeing Republicans invoke Section 230, pick up the cudgel that they hold over these huge tech companies and say, unless you censor, we will revoke Section 230.

00:11:42.380 And by the way, they are following in the footsteps of the leftward edge of the Democratic Party in doing this.

00:11:49.160 In 2020, Beto O'Rourke of Texas ran one of his many doomed campaigns for office.

00:11:54.740 That's one, I think, for president.

00:11:55.820 And he said, unless they get hate speech off the platforms, we're going to revoke Section 230 and put these people out of business.

00:12:03.920 By the way, the threat is enough.

00:12:06.320 That was the hope.

00:12:07.260 If we threaten them that we don't have to do the censoring, we'll make Google, Facebook, Meta, and X do the censoring for us.

00:12:14.820 That was the idea, that no one can accuse us of violating the First Amendment or being for speech codes.

00:12:21.660 We'll make someone else do it.

00:12:23.760 He lost.

00:12:24.900 But then Joe Biden, that same year, 2020, said, actually, yes, we should use this threat to force the big tech platforms to censor in ways that we like.

00:12:36.440 And by the way, they did, they did throughout the Biden presidency, Facebook, then Twitter, Google, all censored opinions the Biden administration didn't like.

00:12:47.440 And they did this ultimately because they feared having their legal protection revoked.

00:12:54.020 That's why they did that.

00:12:55.060 That's what got them to act.

00:12:56.040 And Republicans, the sensible ones, looked at this and said, this is completely wrong.

00:13:00.600 It's totally immoral.

00:13:01.680 It's illegal for the U.S. government to be imposing censorship on its citizens.

00:13:05.440 It's against the Constitution of the United States.

00:13:07.440 And it's against, more important, natural law.

00:13:10.480 These are not rights we were given by the Biden administration.

00:13:13.320 These are rights we were born with.

00:13:14.520 And when you take them away from us, you are the criminal.

00:13:17.080 And they made that point.

00:13:18.160 All of a sudden, you are seeing Republicans take the position that Beto O'Rourke and Joe Biden took just five years ago.

00:13:28.900 Here, for example, and this will come as no surprise to you at all.

00:13:31.780 You will not be shocked to hear this.

00:13:33.580 Here is Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina running for reelection, making exactly the same case that Beto O'Rourke made.

00:13:41.980 Watch.

00:13:42.760 Section 230 needs to be repealed.

00:13:44.880 If you're mad at social media companies that radicalize our nation, you should be mad at a bill that will allow you to sue these people.

00:13:51.800 They're immune from lawsuits.

00:13:54.440 Oh, it should be repealed.

00:13:57.440 Everyone thinks, I'm very careful online.

00:14:00.200 And you probably already got your way to avoid sketchy websites and obvious scammers.

00:14:04.060 You're not giving money to Nigerian princes.

00:14:05.940 Good for you.

00:14:07.240 But is that enough?

00:14:08.300 No, it's not.

00:14:09.500 Big tech, invasive advertisers, even politicians can track what you do online.

00:14:14.880 From standard browsing.

00:14:16.100 And they get rich from it.

00:14:17.220 And they control you with the information that they glean.

00:14:19.800 And this whole ugly process begins with data brokers.

00:14:23.080 Should be legal.

00:14:23.600 It's not.

00:14:24.540 These digital predators track everything that you do online.

00:14:26.900 Every click.

00:14:27.720 Every scroll.

00:14:28.560 Every search.

00:14:29.900 Then they search what you're doing.

00:14:32.420 Collect it.

00:14:33.260 Sell it to the highest bidder who exploits it for profit.

00:14:36.600 And control.

00:14:37.800 Again, it should all be illegal.

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00:17:12.540 Now, it's not clear from that clip exactly why Lindsey Graham is calling for the repeal of Section 230. 1.00

00:17:18.220 Why is he threatening the tech platforms?

00:17:20.320 And by the way, the pretext always changes.

00:17:22.560 They'll tell you, well, we're against child sex trafficking, as if anyone is for it.

00:17:26.680 We're against terrorism, a term, once again, they never define and don't have to.

00:17:31.180 We're against drugs.

00:17:33.000 We're against foreign influence. 1.00

00:17:34.620 We're against bigotry.

00:17:35.740 Whatever.

00:17:36.520 They will always give you an excuse, and that excuse will make them sound like the virtuous party, like the good guys.

00:17:43.700 We're here to save the vulnerable.

00:17:45.920 But that's never the real reason.

00:17:49.840 Censorship always and everywhere is imposed with the intent and always has the effect of shielding the powerful.

00:17:58.040 They're the ones who don't want to be exposed.

00:18:01.920 Free speech, by contrast, and this is the reason it's in our Bill of Rights, is the one great power that the powerless have.

00:18:10.960 Especially in a world where your vote may or may not matter, all you have is your voice.

00:18:16.760 All you have is your opinion.

00:18:18.840 And that's infuriating to Lindsey Graham's donors. 0.98

00:18:21.740 And make no mistake, when he's calling for invoking Section 230 and taking it away, threatening the big platforms,

00:18:28.760 he's doing that on behalf of his donors who feel criticized by random accounts on the Internet.

00:18:33.780 And they hate it, because the people in charge always hate to be called out.

00:18:41.680 Censorship has one goal, and that's to preserve secrecy.

00:18:45.760 And secrecy has one purpose, and that's to abet wrongdoing.

00:18:50.060 So people who are doing nothing wrong are transparent.

00:18:53.920 People who are committing evil hide.

00:18:56.160 And censorship allows them to hide.

00:18:58.060 It's literally that simple.

00:18:59.240 And those people are the most powerful people in the country.

00:19:01.820 So who's encouraging this?

00:19:05.620 The donors, whoever they are.

00:19:07.680 But there are lots of lobby groups, all of them on the left, pushing the Republican-led Congress to get behind censorship initiatives,

00:19:17.160 using the cover of the Section 230 debate to get it done.

00:19:21.960 To pressure the tech companies into making you shut up.

00:19:24.880 Into taking your opinions off the Internet.

00:19:27.320 Using algorithms designed to censor you without even a human being entering into the equation.

00:19:33.040 No person will decide that your opinion is offensive and pull it off.

00:19:36.320 The computer will decide that.

00:19:37.700 And it will be aided by the massive exponential growth in computing power that is at the very center of tech right now.

00:19:45.860 AI.

00:19:46.120 That is the goal, to make certain that opinions that are disruptive to the people in charge never see the light of day.

00:19:55.180 What's amazing, and what's especially infuriating, is that many in the Republican Party,

00:20:01.280 the party that controls all branches of government right now, are completely for this.

00:20:06.580 Strongly for it.

00:20:08.380 Where did they get this idea?

00:20:09.680 Is this a betrayal?

00:20:11.920 Oh, it's a betrayal.

00:20:13.180 How profound a betrayal?

00:20:15.680 Listen to Congressman Don Bacon of Nebraska, a former Air Force general, describe who he's been talking to about censorship.

00:20:23.780 And I appreciate, John, the agreement, what hit him and his ADL stands for.

00:20:29.060 I know you made us better with your feedback and ideas and recommendations, and it's been a trick to get to know you.

00:20:35.080 We want to be in a country that makes clear that anti-salatism or any kind of racism is repugnant, unacceptable, not allowed in my space, and with a zero tolerance for it.

00:20:48.000 So we need to hold these companies accountable and work with them to take it up the airwaves.

00:20:53.400 It's hard to believe that's a real clip we actually checked.

00:20:55.620 Is that real?

00:20:57.040 Congressman Don Bacon of Nebraska, a great and sensible state with tons of normal people, a former Air Force general.

00:21:03.820 Is he really colluding with Jonathan Greenblatt of the ADL to take away your right to say what you think?

00:21:12.600 Oh, you bet.

00:21:14.320 That's exactly what he's doing.

00:21:16.540 And make no mistake, the ADL is not an anti-defamation organization.

00:21:22.060 The ADL practices defamation and slander and bullying and not in service of protecting a marginalized group, but in accruing power and by forwarding its goals, which are ideological.

00:21:36.560 And if you don't believe that, go on the ADL's website and take a look at what the ADL considers hate speech.

00:21:43.080 Hate speech, another one of those terms never quite defined, but the ADL has actually taken the time to define it.

00:21:48.180 What do they consider hate speech?

00:21:49.980 Well, among other things, complaining about drag queen story hour is hate speech, according to the ADL.

00:21:57.080 Huh.

00:21:57.340 Not being enthusiastic about the COVID vax, that's hate speech, and it's dangerous.

00:22:03.680 Noticing that the American population has changed completely in the past 30 years thanks to immigration, that's dangerous hate speech.

00:22:11.420 You should be punished for that, for noticing in your country that you were born in. 0.70

00:22:16.720 No noticing.

00:22:17.680 You can't notice that it looks completely different because of decisions that someone who never consulted you made without your knowledge. 0.99

00:22:24.180 Shut up, says the ADL. 1.00

00:22:26.800 You not only don't have the right to speak, we're going to scream at you and call you a Nazi and imply that you are the dangerous one. 1.00

00:22:32.980 The people who opened up the borders to 50 million foreigners. 0.97

00:22:36.800 But you're the dangerous one.

00:22:38.620 Sure.

00:22:38.940 You know what else is hate speech, by the way?

00:22:40.660 Reading the gospels of Matthew or Mark or Luke or John, the gospel itself, Christianity itself is hate speech. 1.00

00:22:46.180 I know that because three nights ago, I recounted the Christian story in its essence over like five minutes and was immediately denounced by the ADL as someone who was dangerous and inspiring murder.

00:22:58.940 But I'm not the only one.

00:23:01.780 The ADL has actively attacked the Christian gospel for years, has gotten behind a definition of hate speech that includes the Christian story.

00:23:11.380 That's not an exaggeration.

00:23:13.140 That's not a fervid conspiracy theory.

00:23:15.940 That's a fact and you can look it up.

00:23:18.340 So this is the guy? 0.95

00:23:20.280 That's the guy, Jonathan Greenblatt, the most aggressively left-wing, democratic-aligned, but much more important than that, lunatic, anti-human, anti-American group, the ADL, completely corrupt.

00:23:34.380 He's consulting that guy to decide how much speech you should have because there are ugly opinions on the internet?

00:23:44.620 Yeah.

00:23:45.920 That's your Republican Party.

00:23:47.380 Was he denounced by his fellow Republicans in the House?

00:23:50.440 Was he denounced by the Speaker of the House?

00:23:53.340 Speaker Johnson?

00:23:54.260 No, he wasn't.

00:23:55.540 They barely even noticed because they have the same views.

00:23:57.960 Not all of them, but an awful lot of them.

00:24:01.040 It's unbelievable and it's counterproductive.

00:24:04.380 Because, once again, censorship is never enacted to help the powerless.

00:24:09.400 It is always and everywhere an effort to shield the powerful.

00:24:13.200 Always.

00:24:14.160 And, in fact, it has a counterproductive effect on the people it is supposedly designed to help.

00:24:19.700 How would you feel about any person you're not allowed to criticize?

00:24:24.060 Would that make you like the person more?

00:24:25.700 No.

00:24:26.080 It would make you resentful and suspicious.

00:24:29.760 And it would give you the well-deserved opinion that this is not an egalitarian society in which we're all citizens.

00:24:36.980 It's a hierarchical society in which the government has decided some people have more rights than others.

00:24:41.640 So, if you find out you're not allowed to criticize someone else, maybe the first question you might ask is,

00:24:46.600 Well, then, why are people allowed to criticize me?

00:24:49.420 And the answer is because some people have more power in our society.

00:24:52.720 Or are being used to pit different groups against each other.

00:24:55.340 Or who knows what's going on.

00:24:56.540 But none of it is consistent with the core promise of this country, which is we're all citizens under our government.

00:25:03.820 And we're all equal before our God who made us.

00:25:06.480 It says that.

00:25:08.620 But increasingly, that's not the country we live in.

00:25:10.880 We live in a country where some people have more rights than others.

00:25:13.820 And that's exactly the kind of message you would send if you wanted to foment a revolution against your government.

00:25:18.460 Because it enrages people.

00:25:20.000 And it divides them from each other.

00:25:21.800 Oh, we have to protect this group.

00:25:23.080 What does everyone else think of that?

00:25:24.580 They secretly don't like the group.

00:25:27.500 You're not ending bigotry by enacting censorship.

00:25:31.800 You're creating it, dumbo.

00:25:34.820 And this is specifically aimed at Congressman Bacon, who was somehow an Air Force general. 0.99

00:25:40.660 He can't be dumb. 0.91

00:25:42.160 But he's obviously not very thoughtful because this is very obvious. 0.98

00:25:46.400 People don't like other people who get special treatment.

00:25:52.320 Were you never a child?

00:25:53.200 Did you never learn that?

00:25:55.580 Who knows what the purpose is here?

00:25:57.140 It doesn't even matter.

00:25:59.780 It is happening right before us.

00:26:02.580 The people who are elected to protect us, who say they're our friends, are selling us out.

00:26:08.200 And you can theorize as to why.

00:26:10.500 And by the way, all of that theorizing is itself unhealthy.

00:26:13.700 Where do conspiracy theories come from?

00:26:15.500 Where do you think they come from?

00:26:16.500 They come from living in a country where the government will never explain anything and lies constantly.

00:26:21.400 So the next time you see someone in power complain about malicious conspiracy theories, stop him in mid-sentence and say they exist because of you.

00:26:28.040 If you just tell the truth, if you would live like Charlie Kirk and answer the question politely, reasonably, fully, there wouldn't be a vacuum into which lunatics would rush.

00:26:42.060 We would have a plausible answer to basic questions like, what the hell is going on?

00:26:47.420 But because you haven't provided that, what do you think is going to happen?

00:26:52.440 People are going to have some pretty far out explanations.

00:26:55.160 And maybe some of them are true, by the way.

00:26:56.940 We don't know.

00:26:58.240 Your behavior is so suspicious because you can't answer any question straight.

00:27:03.940 Any.

00:27:04.260 And you're spending your time talking to Jonathan Greenblatt, one of the darkest, most corrupt people in our society, truly a divisive figure.

00:27:13.680 Speaking of divisive, how many Americans have made fellow Americans hate each other more consistently over the years than Jonathan Greenblatt?

00:27:21.660 Very, very few.

00:27:22.680 Very few.

00:27:24.220 And you're talking to him?

00:27:25.420 So if this sounds like a paranoid rant, like, oh, that could never happen, well, you should know that it is happening right now in the state of California.

00:27:36.680 The state of California, like, two weeks ago, ten days ago, eight days ago, something like that, has passed a law in the state legislature, both chambers of the state legislature.

00:27:49.580 It awaits a signature from Gavin Newsom that would ban hate speech on the Internet in California.

00:27:58.940 Hate speech.

00:27:59.640 Now, how do they define hate speech?

00:28:00.960 I actually have the definition.

00:28:02.060 I actually wrote it down because I was so shocked by it that this is happening.

00:28:05.720 The state of California, if Gavin Newsom signs this law, and he has until October 13th to do it,

00:28:10.980 people will be fined if the censors determine that speech constitutes, and we're quoting now, violence, intimidation, or coercion.

00:28:21.340 What's intimidation or coercion, right?

00:28:24.080 Or coercion based on race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, immigration status, or other protected characteristics.

00:28:32.040 Obviously, white Christian men are not covered under that, and so the society becomes ever more hierarchical with a Brahmin class and untouchables at the bottom, 1.00

00:28:43.960 the opposite of the country all of us over 50 grew up in that had an egalitarian spirit where some were rich, some were poor, some were smart, some were dumb, some had good jobs, others were unemployed,

00:28:52.980 but all of us were considered equal under the law and equal in the eyes of God.

00:28:58.000 And that concept is the basis of a stable society, any stable society, and it was the basis of stability in this country.

00:29:04.980 And laws like this and the attitudes that give birth to them, to laws like this, have made it wildly unstable.

00:29:13.660 Wobbly, it's so unstable.

00:29:16.440 So, as of October 13th, that could become law.

00:29:19.740 Now, that's a censorship law.

00:29:21.260 Now, they'll say, no, no, no, we're just, we're actually getting the platforms to censor.

00:29:24.320 Well, right, you're getting someone else to do the job for you, but if you hire a hitman and he carries out the hit, you're the murderer.

00:29:33.320 He participated in it, but you hired him.

00:29:35.660 And that's exactly what's going on here.

00:29:37.280 The state of California, under Gavin Newsom, is about to, we think, censor the opinions of Americans.

00:29:45.220 Not to protect anybody, but to shield themselves from criticism so they can continue to do what they want to do in secret.

00:29:51.800 Jonathan Greenblatt, the head of the ADL, applauds this.

00:30:04.080 And in case you're not familiar with Jonathan Greenblatt, and in case you want a sense of what he's like and what he considers hate speech,

00:30:10.480 let's just go right to the tape so you know that we're not exaggerating.

00:30:14.940 This is Jonathan Greenblatt of ADL.

00:30:16.260 When you look at the prevalence of anti-vaxxer accounts that have been amplified and spread across Facebook,

00:30:22.800 they don't show up on your network, but they show up every day to billions of people

00:30:27.060 because Facebook profits from amplifying these voices, which are literally killing people.

00:30:33.260 And freedom to express your opinion isn't the freedom to incite violence.

00:30:37.400 But, but for Facebook, it is, and that needs to change.

00:30:41.300 That's all. It's simple.

00:30:43.240 There's nothing wrong with keeping all of us safe from violent white supremacists or hateful people.

00:30:51.460 So criticizing the COVID vax is tantamount to murder. 0.87

00:30:55.920 There's never been, I mean, obviously that's prima facie insane.

00:30:59.100 It's untrue.

00:31:00.240 It's a deranged perspective.

00:31:01.820 But more than anything, you're seeing who Jonathan Greenblatt really is.

00:31:07.260 He is a faithful Praetorian guard for the people in charge.

00:31:12.200 This is not someone who's ever challenged actual power, not once in his life.

00:31:16.380 That's who he works for.

00:31:17.960 That's who he takes money from.

00:31:22.220 That's what hate speech looks like.

00:31:23.980 Anybody in charge can make you shut up when you criticize them or stand in the way of their aims.

00:31:34.080 So in case you don't think this can come to the United States,

00:31:38.120 one final clip, and it's a sad one, and it comes from the UK.

00:31:42.200 Now the UK, obviously the country that gave birth two hours,

00:31:45.440 a cousin, a country so similar to ours and so close, six hours by plane overnight,

00:31:50.460 that we don't really think of it as fully foreign.

00:31:52.420 It's not like going to Malaysia or Burundi or even France.

00:31:56.760 It's an English-speaking country whose customs are recognizable,

00:32:01.000 whose government and common law form the basis of our government and our law.

00:32:07.480 Everything about England seems like home but three degrees off.

00:32:13.280 And yet the UK has become a police state.

00:32:17.800 And if you don't believe that,

00:32:19.480 if you think that's just hyperbole designed to whip you into a frenzy,

00:32:23.820 here's a stat that we checked,

00:32:25.200 and it's hard even to believe this is true,

00:32:27.200 but this is true.

00:32:29.660 2023.

00:32:31.420 So like a year and a half ago.

00:32:33.580 How many people do you think were arrested

00:32:35.720 in the United Kingdom

00:32:37.400 for speech violations,

00:32:39.680 arrested by the police,

00:32:40.900 handcuffed and brought to jail in 2023?

00:32:43.080 A couple dozen,

00:32:45.220 you know,

00:32:45.440 the ones you see on X,

00:32:47.240 the ones Fox News talks about.

00:32:48.800 How many people in that year were arrested

00:32:50.700 for saying things the government didn't want them to say?

00:32:53.940 What's your guess?

00:32:54.760 Is it more than 12,000?

00:32:56.920 Because that's the answer.

00:32:58.140 More than 12,000.

00:33:00.180 Wow,

00:33:00.700 that seems like a lot.

00:33:01.680 Is that a lot?

00:33:03.040 I mean,

00:33:03.180 it's kind of hard to know,

00:33:04.020 right?

00:33:04.780 Okay.

00:33:05.500 Well,

00:33:05.860 let's compare it

00:33:07.200 to the number,

00:33:08.980 the widely agreed upon number

00:33:10.260 from the most totalitarian country in the world.

00:33:13.860 A country so lacking in basic freedom. 1.00

00:33:16.940 A country run by a madman. 1.00

00:33:18.960 A country that's so evil, 1.00

00:33:20.520 we're literally at war with that country right now,

00:33:22.660 just on principle.

00:33:23.600 Because we so disapprove of how they treat their people.

00:33:26.160 And that country,

00:33:27.180 of course,

00:33:27.600 is Russia under Vladimir Putin.

00:33:30.220 So if the UK

00:33:31.500 handcuffed 12,000,

00:33:34.280 more than 12,000 people in one year

00:33:36.420 for saying things the government didn't like,

00:33:38.760 how many were arrested in Russia?

00:33:41.540 A country with twice the population of the UK.

00:33:44.840 Oh,

00:33:44.960 we happen to have the number.

00:33:46.340 3,319.

00:33:49.700 So to restate,

00:33:50.840 more than 12,000 people arrested

00:33:53.140 in the United Kingdom,

00:33:55.800 England,

00:33:56.900 in one year for speech code violations,

00:34:00.640 3,300 arrested in Russia,

00:34:03.180 a country with twice the population.

00:34:05.580 So that tells you,

00:34:07.060 you don't think totalitarianism

00:34:08.720 can come to the Anglosphere?

00:34:10.240 Oh,

00:34:10.540 it already has.

00:34:11.720 We haven't even touched on

00:34:12.660 Australia,

00:34:13.400 New Zealand,

00:34:13.900 Canada.

00:34:14.540 In some ways,

00:34:15.140 even worse.

00:34:16.780 But what does it look like?

00:34:17.960 What is the face

00:34:19.280 of

00:34:20.660 hate crime prosecution?

00:34:23.320 What does it actually look like

00:34:24.400 when a citizen is arrested

00:34:25.400 for saying something

00:34:26.060 the government doesn't like?

00:34:27.660 This video is not from China.

00:34:28.820 It's from the United Kingdom.

00:34:30.380 This is a British veteran

00:34:31.720 being arrested

00:34:32.800 for offending the government.

00:34:33.880 Watch.

00:34:35.280 The scripture police 0.55

00:34:36.520 would realise 0.98

00:34:37.980 how ridiculous this is. 0.99

00:34:39.600 It is. 0.99

00:34:40.480 It is.

00:34:41.080 It didn't need to come to this.

00:34:42.720 What did it need to come to?

00:34:45.160 Tell us why you

00:34:46.140 escalated it to this level.

00:34:47.340 Because I don't understand.

00:34:48.920 I posted something

00:34:49.640 that he posted.

00:34:50.680 You come to arrest me,

00:34:51.560 you don't arrest him.

00:34:52.520 Why has it come to this?

00:34:53.580 Why am I in cuffs?

00:34:54.480 Because it's something

00:34:55.160 he shared,

00:34:56.420 then I shared.

00:34:57.020 Because someone

00:34:57.940 has been caused

00:34:58.680 obviously anxiety

00:34:59.720 based upon your

00:35:01.880 social media page.

00:35:04.000 That's why you've been arrested.

00:35:07.300 Oh yes.

00:35:08.520 The velvet wrap

00:35:09.620 jackboot

00:35:10.440 of British fascism.

00:35:12.120 You're being arrested

00:35:13.120 because someone

00:35:14.520 has been caused anxiety

00:35:15.640 by your views.

00:35:16.480 Notice that someone

00:35:17.020 is never identified

00:35:17.720 and of course the answer

00:35:18.620 is someone in power.

00:35:20.140 Someone in the government

00:35:20.900 or someone who funds

00:35:21.640 the government,

00:35:22.200 someone close to the government,

00:35:23.140 someone who has a lot more power

00:35:23.980 than you,

00:35:24.300 didn't like what you were saying,

00:35:25.460 felt anxious about

00:35:26.220 what you were saying,

00:35:27.020 and so unfortunately

00:35:28.100 we're going to have

00:35:28.460 to handcuff you

00:35:29.160 and bring you to jail. 0.55

00:35:31.740 Ho, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho. 0.61

00:35:34.100 That happened this year.

00:35:35.400 That happened in,

00:35:35.860 that's from January

00:35:36.640 and it happens

00:35:37.880 every single day.

00:35:38.700 More than 12,000 people

00:35:39.760 arrested every single year

00:35:40.760 for criticizing their government

00:35:41.780 in the UK.

00:35:42.940 Our closest ally

00:35:44.280 with whom we share

00:35:46.000 intelligence on every level.

00:35:48.040 British intelligence,

00:35:48.940 I know everyone's spun up

00:35:49.860 about Mossad,

00:35:50.520 very close to Mossad,

00:35:51.900 we're closer

00:35:52.360 to British intelligence.

00:35:53.220 That's the country

00:35:54.880 we're partnering with

00:35:56.000 to spy on

00:35:57.400 our respective populations.

00:36:00.280 Yeah.

00:36:01.140 So it's really,

00:36:01.840 really simple.

00:36:02.720 If a government,

00:36:04.440 if your government

00:36:05.740 is willing to arrest you

00:36:07.740 for saying things

00:36:09.240 that they don't like,

00:36:10.440 if your government

00:36:11.440 is arresting you

00:36:12.840 for criticizing them,

00:36:14.300 one way or another,

00:36:17.000 you need a new government.

00:36:18.900 If there is

00:36:19.940 any justification

00:36:21.340 for revolution,

00:36:22.740 it's that.

00:36:23.320 That's unacceptable.

00:36:24.260 That's tyranny.

00:36:25.240 A government that does that

00:36:26.120 is not a legitimate government.

00:36:27.420 It has absolutely

00:36:28.060 no right to do that

00:36:29.160 and it should be stopped

00:36:30.920 from doing that

00:36:31.520 immediately.

00:36:32.960 That's the red line

00:36:33.840 right there.

00:36:34.820 So the First Amendment

00:36:35.860 is the one truly distinctive thing

00:36:37.860 that makes America,

00:36:39.100 America.

00:36:39.660 It makes this country great.

00:36:40.800 You are a citizen.

00:36:42.240 That means you can speak

00:36:43.740 openly and honestly

00:36:45.000 without fear

00:36:45.700 about what you actually believe.

00:36:47.360 The government doesn't own you.

00:36:49.380 You own the government.

00:36:51.340 That's the premise

00:36:52.140 and for 250 years

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00:36:54.520 We hope to keep living it.

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00:39:47.360 Michael Schellenberger

00:39:48.440 is one of the great

00:39:50.080 reporters in the United States,

00:39:51.640 a friend of ours,

00:39:52.660 and someone who,

00:39:54.260 as a former liberal,

00:39:55.420 has probably thought

00:39:56.440 about speech

00:39:57.480 for more years

00:39:59.100 and with more clarity

00:40:00.120 than probably anyone I know.

00:40:02.200 And so we're so grateful

00:40:02.900 to have him on

00:40:03.460 to assess

00:40:04.000 the state of free speech

00:40:05.880 in the United States

00:40:06.560 two weeks after

00:40:07.140 Charlie Kirk's assassination.

00:40:08.620 Mike, thanks very much

00:40:09.520 for coming on.

00:40:10.440 Are you worried?

00:40:14.200 I'm very worried.

00:40:16.060 I mean,

00:40:16.420 I think what's maybe

00:40:17.400 undersaid recently

00:40:19.160 is that,

00:40:20.000 you know,

00:40:20.560 assassination is the ultimate

00:40:22.040 form of censorship.

00:40:23.340 You know,

00:40:23.960 and it comes from

00:40:25.580 the same place.

00:40:26.940 You know,

00:40:27.140 I think that's

00:40:27.820 what everybody

00:40:28.320 senses about it

00:40:29.460 is that

00:40:29.980 there had been efforts,

00:40:31.700 you know,

00:40:31.920 to censor,

00:40:32.900 you know,

00:40:33.180 and they had,

00:40:34.260 I think,

00:40:34.520 censored Charlie Kirk,

00:40:35.300 obviously.

00:40:35.800 I mean,

00:40:35.900 the Twitter files,

00:40:36.760 we discovered

00:40:37.220 that he was on a blacklist.

00:40:39.320 There was obviously

00:40:40.200 huge attempts

00:40:40.900 to keep him out

00:40:41.600 of universities.

00:40:42.640 He had already had,

00:40:43.420 you know,

00:40:43.620 many death threats,

00:40:44.700 which is not a direct

00:40:46.480 form of government censorship,

00:40:47.480 but these are societal demands

00:40:49.080 that he'd be silenced.

00:40:51.360 And then at a global

00:40:53.180 institutional level,

00:40:54.620 yeah,

00:40:54.820 it's a very disturbing trend

00:40:56.240 that we're seeing.

00:40:57.140 I mean,

00:40:57.300 I think there's two things

00:40:58.280 happening.

00:40:58.860 There's both a organic

00:41:00.260 kind of demand

00:41:02.000 from powerful people

00:41:03.580 like the kind

00:41:04.140 that you were describing

00:41:05.100 where a politician

00:41:06.640 just really,

00:41:07.620 you know,

00:41:07.880 I think it was the Moskovits 1.00

00:41:09.080 where you just kind of

00:41:10.200 can't stand something

00:41:11.400 and they just want to see

00:41:12.340 something taken down

00:41:13.340 and you'll see that

00:41:13.980 from groups

00:41:14.680 and politicians.

00:41:16.380 And then there's more

00:41:17.200 of an inorganic

00:41:18.580 demand for censorship,

00:41:19.800 which we've labeled

00:41:20.920 the censorship

00:41:21.580 industrial complex.

00:41:22.820 You can call it

00:41:23.600 the censorship industry

00:41:24.760 and that is in place

00:41:27.140 in the European Union,

00:41:29.000 in Britain,

00:41:30.100 in Brazil,

00:41:31.760 California would like 0.83

00:41:32.780 to have that.

00:41:34.180 Basically,

00:41:34.780 all the Five Eyes countries 0.96

00:41:36.120 are pursuing that

00:41:37.620 and their strategy,

00:41:39.340 I think,

00:41:39.620 is pretty clear

00:41:40.220 at this point

00:41:40.700 is to encircle

00:41:41.560 the United States

00:41:42.580 and to make

00:41:43.240 our tech platform

00:41:44.380 censor along the lines

00:41:46.420 that they would like to

00:41:47.540 so they can achieve

00:41:49.000 censorship

00:41:49.620 through the back door.

00:41:51.040 And this has always

00:41:52.000 been their strategy

00:41:52.880 because they know

00:41:53.700 that the First Amendment

00:41:54.620 is a major obstacle

00:41:56.680 for them

00:41:57.280 since it requires

00:41:58.600 that the people

00:41:59.200 have really radical

00:42:00.420 levels of free speech

00:42:01.680 that no country

00:42:02.460 has ever come close to.

00:42:04.220 And as you said,

00:42:05.200 based on this idea

00:42:06.040 of natural rights

00:42:06.880 that we are granted

00:42:08.240 by our creator,

00:42:09.340 not given to us

00:42:10.440 by the government,

00:42:11.340 the speech comes

00:42:12.140 before the government.

00:42:13.300 The speech is how

00:42:13.860 we constitute our government.

00:42:15.340 Whereas in Europe

00:42:16.260 and everywhere else,

00:42:17.080 the government

00:42:17.500 had gradually

00:42:18.460 let people say

00:42:20.420 certain things.

00:42:21.200 You have to petition

00:42:21.820 the king.

00:42:22.420 Oh, king,

00:42:22.860 can we criticize you

00:42:23.740 for sleeping with Ann Boylan?

00:42:25.080 And the king would decide

00:42:26.100 whether that would be okay

00:42:27.100 or not.

00:42:28.080 And that's how

00:42:29.200 it would occur.

00:42:30.540 And the creators

00:42:31.240 of this amazing country,

00:42:32.740 and as you work

00:42:33.280 on free speech,

00:42:34.260 I've only worked on it now

00:42:35.220 for really two and a half years.

00:42:37.400 I'm a newbie

00:42:38.340 to the issue.

00:42:39.520 But one of the things

00:42:40.300 you just really appreciate

00:42:41.260 is really how radical

00:42:42.520 and powerful

00:42:43.520 and strong

00:42:44.260 that commitment

00:42:44.760 to the First Amendment was.

00:42:46.260 It's not just hype.

00:42:47.480 You might just think,

00:42:48.160 is that just patriotic hype

00:42:49.460 from Americans.

00:42:50.560 It's not when you read

00:42:52.080 the history of free speech

00:42:53.040 over 2,500 years

00:42:54.480 going back to Socrates

00:42:55.620 who was put to death

00:42:56.680 for things that he said,

00:42:58.860 also an act of censorship,

00:43:00.940 then you realize

00:43:02.500 just how radical

00:43:03.320 the First Amendment,

00:43:03.820 and how beautiful

00:43:04.380 the First Amendment is

00:43:05.560 because the Americans

00:43:06.420 that created our country

00:43:07.600 said we don't want

00:43:08.200 to have a country,

00:43:09.580 we don't want to have

00:43:10.180 a government

00:43:10.700 if we can't have

00:43:11.740 full free speech

00:43:13.220 with some very narrow exceptions.

00:43:15.720 And so the exceptions,

00:43:16.780 now they sort of say,

00:43:17.560 well, the Internet

00:43:18.320 changed everything.

00:43:19.240 That's what you hear from.

00:43:20.400 That's what I hear

00:43:20.780 from my progressive friends.

00:43:22.760 Heard it on Martha's Vineyard

00:43:23.880 of all places.

00:43:25.320 It's all changed

00:43:26.100 with the Internet.

00:43:26.800 It's too dangerous

00:43:27.560 to allow this high level

00:43:28.640 of free speech.

00:43:29.260 We have to change things.

00:43:30.720 Well, Tucker,

00:43:31.200 to put in context

00:43:33.320 how crazy that is,

00:43:35.120 our Supreme Court

00:43:36.140 has ruled not once

00:43:37.380 but twice

00:43:38.180 that Nazis can march 0.88

00:43:40.080 through neighborhoods

00:43:41.500 not only of Jewish Americans

00:43:43.360 but of Holocaust survivors

00:43:44.840 and that the line

00:43:46.780 of the Holocaust 0.63

00:43:47.560 where the line

00:43:48.900 that gets crossed

00:43:49.740 between speech

00:43:51.300 and actual violence

00:43:53.100 is when I say 1.00

00:43:54.060 go kill that person there 1.00

00:43:55.920 or go light that house 1.00

00:43:57.300 on how it's when

00:43:58.080 the speech becomes

00:43:58.960 part of the action

00:44:00.840 or coordinating

00:44:02.540 an assassination

00:44:03.240 or something.

00:44:03.780 Of course,

00:44:04.120 language in that context

00:44:05.400 has to be illegal

00:44:06.840 because it's part of

00:44:07.840 breaking the law.

00:44:09.800 But marching

00:44:11.080 through a neighborhood

00:44:11.600 with the most vile ideology

00:44:13.680 is something

00:44:14.420 that the Supreme Court

00:44:15.220 has twice upheld.

00:44:16.360 Well, now we're supposed

00:44:17.560 to believe

00:44:18.280 that some racist comments

00:44:20.280 on a Facebook post

00:44:22.600 or, as you said,

00:44:24.380 it's really political.

00:44:25.640 It's really about

00:44:26.380 stifling the conversation

00:44:27.880 around migration,

00:44:29.980 gender, climate.

00:44:32.660 I mean,

00:44:32.880 it's actually been less

00:44:33.700 on race,

00:44:34.380 a huge amount

00:44:35.340 on trans issues.

00:44:36.920 I mean,

00:44:37.200 we just saw

00:44:37.800 a British gentleman

00:44:38.680 at Grand Lennam,

00:44:39.860 a famous television

00:44:41.540 comedy writer,

00:44:43.160 get arrested

00:44:43.960 when he landed in Britain

00:44:45.820 for having urged

00:44:47.980 biological women 1.00

00:44:49.440 to defend themselves

00:44:50.600 from biological males

00:44:52.220 that come into

00:44:53.000 their bathrooms.

00:44:54.000 So it is a very

00:44:55.220 serious threat,

00:44:56.080 Tucker.

00:44:57.020 I think that the thing

00:44:57.840 to keep our eye on

00:44:58.960 is they've been trying

00:45:00.680 to basically get

00:45:01.780 governments to empower

00:45:03.040 a mostly secret group

00:45:04.840 of so-called NGOs

00:45:06.080 that would be financed

00:45:07.660 by the government

00:45:08.360 and who would be telling

00:45:09.920 the social media companies

00:45:11.080 what to take down.

00:45:12.200 In some places,

00:45:12.980 they're more subtle

00:45:13.600 with it than in others.

00:45:14.900 That's the big threat.

00:45:16.460 The Trump administration

00:45:17.140 has done some great things

00:45:18.260 to defund that.

00:45:19.520 It was all going to work

00:45:20.280 through NSF

00:45:21.240 and then Congress

00:45:21.920 would have to bless it

00:45:22.880 and that was the way

00:45:23.500 that they were going to do it.

00:45:24.440 So the Trump administration

00:45:25.780 has done a great job

00:45:26.820 defunding that

00:45:28.780 and also holding

00:45:29.760 a strong line

00:45:30.680 on both Europe

00:45:31.460 and Brazil,

00:45:32.700 demanding that

00:45:33.960 free speech protections

00:45:34.940 be there.

00:45:36.740 But obviously,

00:45:38.000 we see some backsliding

00:45:40.300 and some behaviors

00:45:41.120 over the last couple of weeks

00:45:42.260 that were lamentable.

00:45:43.660 Certainly the Attorney General's

00:45:45.060 comments,

00:45:45.540 which she then later 0.98

00:45:46.440 kind of went back on

00:45:48.000 and said she didn't

00:45:49.000 mean what she had said

00:45:50.520 and then obviously,

00:45:51.840 or maybe not obviously,

00:45:52.840 but a dust up

00:45:53.940 over the FCC chair

00:45:56.020 and his comments

00:45:56.880 around Jimmy Kimmel,

00:45:58.280 which I got to say

00:45:59.180 as the days go by

00:46:00.200 and you look in retrospect,

00:46:01.740 it just seems absurd.

00:46:03.160 I mean,

00:46:03.320 you had Democrats

00:46:03.980 trying to create

00:46:04.840 this elaborate censorship system

00:46:06.880 and then you had

00:46:07.800 some bad mouthing

00:46:08.700 of Jimmy Kimmel.

00:46:10.100 It wasn't really,

00:46:11.100 it wasn't great.

00:46:12.620 I think it was inappropriate.

00:46:16.500 But I think there was

00:46:17.560 a lot of other

00:46:17.900 complicating factors too

00:46:19.240 and there was,

00:46:20.440 you know,

00:46:20.620 economic concerns

00:46:21.460 around Jimmy Kimmel

00:46:22.440 and just sort of

00:46:23.220 this demand that,

00:46:24.660 you know,

00:46:24.940 that he have to be carried

00:46:26.040 on every television station.

00:46:27.680 I think in retrospect,

00:46:29.400 we won't look back on

00:46:31.120 as it's not a great moment.

00:46:32.780 I don't think

00:46:33.040 the Trump administration

00:46:33.600 covered itself in glory

00:46:34.680 over the last couple of weeks

00:46:35.780 on that,

00:46:36.740 but on the European side

00:46:38.580 of holding strong

00:46:39.280 on free speech

00:46:40.220 and also in standing up

00:46:41.660 to Brazil,

00:46:42.980 I do give the Trump

00:46:44.120 administration credit.

00:46:45.840 All it did was save

00:46:46.460 Jimmy Kimmel.

00:46:47.420 I mean,

00:46:47.620 Jimmy Kimmel is on his way out.

00:46:48.740 Nobody watches that. 1.00

00:46:49.800 It's crap. 1.00

00:46:50.280 I mean, 1.00

00:46:50.600 it has no effect

00:46:51.320 on American society. 0.98

00:46:52.320 It's just masturbatory. 0.97

00:46:54.000 It's really, 0.99

00:46:54.380 he's playing for an audience

00:46:55.320 of one himself

00:46:56.480 and this kind of allowed him

00:46:59.300 to pose as a free speech defender.

00:47:01.180 I got to say,

00:47:02.180 the TikTok thing,

00:47:03.540 I think I sort of missed that.

00:47:05.040 I don't know why

00:47:05.660 I wasn't paying attention.

00:47:06.600 I should have been,

00:47:07.720 but TikTok was banned

00:47:09.240 by the Congress,

00:47:11.360 forced to sell.

00:47:12.340 It was a Chinese-owned company

00:47:13.200 by Dan's own TikTok

00:47:14.720 and the argument

00:47:16.200 in the Congress was,

00:47:17.280 well,

00:47:17.400 we can't have foreign ownership 1.00

00:47:19.040 of,

00:47:20.480 you know,

00:47:20.760 a critical service

00:47:21.520 like social media

00:47:22.620 in this country

00:47:23.640 and so it has to be owned

00:47:24.980 at least 51%

00:47:27.600 by Americans.

00:47:28.780 Okay,

00:47:29.120 I just,

00:47:29.480 I don't know why

00:47:30.040 I missed the significance

00:47:30.960 of this.

00:47:31.640 Then it turns out,

00:47:32.800 and they said this openly,

00:47:34.060 it had nothing to do

00:47:34.840 with China

00:47:35.300 and members of Congress

00:47:36.800 said this.

00:47:37.460 I'm,

00:47:37.920 a lot of Republicans,

00:47:39.240 I'm voting

00:47:40.160 to shut down TikTok

00:47:41.500 because people

00:47:43.640 are starting to like Hamas 0.87

00:47:44.740 when they watch it.

00:47:46.040 Now,

00:47:46.200 I'm not endorsing Hamas, 1.00

00:47:47.540 obviously,

00:47:48.100 I'm not pro-Hamas 0.99

00:47:48.800 at all,

00:47:50.160 but Americans have a right

00:47:51.620 to like anything they want

00:47:53.380 and to come to their own conclusions

00:47:55.180 about some foreign conflict

00:47:57.080 or even domestic conflict,

00:47:58.180 any conclusion they want

00:47:59.420 because they're not slaves.

00:48:01.740 So,

00:48:02.140 is it okay

00:48:02.820 for the Congress

00:48:03.460 to decide

00:48:03.920 I don't like the effects,

00:48:05.240 the radicalization

00:48:06.260 of this one

00:48:08.260 social media platform

00:48:09.980 so I'm going to shut it down?

00:48:12.000 I mean,

00:48:12.240 is that allowed?

00:48:13.060 Can they do that?

00:48:15.440 Well,

00:48:15.920 this gets to,

00:48:16.760 let me,

00:48:16.960 let me come to it

00:48:17.880 by addressing the,

00:48:19.240 one of the things

00:48:19.680 that you,

00:48:20.260 I thought rightly

00:48:20.820 discussed in your monologue,

00:48:22.480 which is this

00:48:23.180 very wonky

00:48:24.340 but important issue

00:48:25.600 of this law

00:48:26.400 called Section 230

00:48:27.440 and the nature

00:48:29.160 of these platforms

00:48:30.560 that we have.

00:48:31.500 And I think it's helpful

00:48:32.340 to think of these platforms

00:48:33.480 at this point

00:48:34.220 as utilities,

00:48:35.860 they're monopoly utilities.

00:48:37.640 Right.

00:48:37.880 You could say

00:48:38.320 there's some competition

00:48:39.220 between Instagram

00:48:40.220 and TikTok

00:48:40.780 and X

00:48:41.900 and there's truth

00:48:42.540 to that

00:48:42.900 but there's often

00:48:43.960 situations

00:48:44.600 in monopoly environments

00:48:46.100 where there's

00:48:46.920 some competition

00:48:47.660 but they really do

00:48:49.360 operate,

00:48:50.220 I think,

00:48:50.460 functionally

00:48:50.960 as monopolies

00:48:52.260 and they're

00:48:52.720 already regulated

00:48:54.340 monopolies

00:48:54.940 by Section 230.

00:48:56.020 They're already

00:48:56.400 saying to them

00:48:57.180 you're a different

00:48:57.760 category of business,

00:48:59.560 you're not liable.

00:49:00.760 if you take down

00:49:02.020 illegal content,

00:49:03.960 you're not,

00:49:04.520 you can't be sued

00:49:05.460 for having had

00:49:06.500 that content

00:49:07.140 on your website.

00:49:07.880 It still requires

00:49:08.560 them to take it down.

00:49:10.260 I think my view

00:49:11.680 and I've published

00:49:12.600 a couple of white papers

00:49:13.640 on it,

00:49:14.200 I've testified on it,

00:49:15.480 hasn't exactly

00:49:16.580 caught fire,

00:49:17.680 my proposal.

00:49:19.140 I've got a lot of views

00:49:19.900 like that too.

00:49:21.740 Yeah,

00:49:22.160 but I think like,

00:49:23.040 I think that,

00:49:24.320 you know,

00:49:24.500 I mean,

00:49:24.640 look,

00:49:24.840 one thing you have

00:49:25.200 to understand

00:49:25.420 about these big tech

00:49:26.720 companies,

00:49:27.120 they're so powerful.

00:49:28.200 There's,

00:49:28.700 I was shocked

00:49:29.660 when I learned that

00:49:30.180 like Facebook

00:49:30.720 has a different

00:49:31.400 lobbyist for House

00:49:32.660 Republicans

00:49:33.220 than for House

00:49:34.440 Democrats

00:49:35.040 and a separate

00:49:35.460 lobbyist for Senate

00:49:36.740 Republicans,

00:49:37.440 Senate Democrats.

00:49:38.280 I mean,

00:49:38.480 these guys really

00:49:39.360 put a lot of money

00:49:40.400 into having that

00:49:41.200 control over Congress.

00:49:42.100 So that's a little

00:49:43.620 bit like the utilities

00:49:44.560 power at the state

00:49:46.520 level,

00:49:46.860 the electric utilities

00:49:47.800 power at the state

00:49:49.300 level.

00:49:49.680 So it's a regulated

00:49:50.540 environment,

00:49:51.100 but I do think

00:49:51.800 public interest voices

00:49:52.760 like yourself

00:49:53.520 and Joe Rogan

00:49:54.380 and others

00:49:54.960 out there carrying

00:49:56.900 this message

00:49:57.400 is really important

00:49:58.260 because I think

00:49:59.560 what's in the

00:49:59.940 public interest

00:50:00.700 is that we

00:50:01.700 actually do

00:50:02.380 keep 230

00:50:03.420 but make it

00:50:04.880 contingent

00:50:05.700 on allowing

00:50:06.540 all adult

00:50:07.640 users

00:50:08.180 to filter

00:50:10.240 our own

00:50:10.980 content,

00:50:11.940 our own

00:50:12.360 legal content.

00:50:13.640 So in other

00:50:14.020 words,

00:50:14.900 all the child

00:50:15.640 exploitation stuff

00:50:16.740 obviously still

00:50:17.820 being policed

00:50:18.540 as we do now.

00:50:19.980 All of the,

00:50:21.120 you know,

00:50:21.640 copyright violation,

00:50:22.640 all that stuff

00:50:23.240 still being policed

00:50:24.240 as is now.

00:50:25.140 But when you

00:50:25.480 would go into

00:50:25.940 social media platform,

00:50:26.880 you'd have a chance

00:50:27.480 to basically decide

00:50:28.500 what you wanted to see

00:50:29.280 and what you didn't

00:50:29.820 want to see.

00:50:30.440 And there was

00:50:30.780 even some talk

00:50:31.480 among Republicans

00:50:33.040 who I respect,

00:50:34.080 but I disagree

00:50:34.760 on this issue

00:50:35.320 that we're upset

00:50:36.180 that the video

00:50:37.540 of Charlie Kirk

00:50:38.220 being assassinated

00:50:39.180 was on X.

00:50:40.840 I mean,

00:50:41.020 it was quite shocking.

00:50:42.060 I have to agree

00:50:42.780 with that,

00:50:43.420 but I don't think

00:50:43.920 the solution

00:50:44.340 is to necessarily

00:50:45.120 take it down.

00:50:45.880 But you could

00:50:46.160 certainly create

00:50:46.760 your own filter

00:50:47.340 that I want to

00:50:47.920 filter out any scenes

00:50:49.120 of people being

00:50:49.980 physically harmed.

00:50:51.280 You could have

00:50:51.560 a lot of different

00:50:52.140 filters.

00:50:52.560 You could have

00:50:52.820 the Tucker Carlson

00:50:53.620 filter.

00:50:54.460 You could have

00:50:54.720 the Greta Thunberg

00:50:55.460 filter.

00:50:56.620 But the users

00:50:57.660 would be able

00:50:58.300 to do that.

00:50:58.980 And then,

00:50:59.240 of course,

00:50:59.420 the platforms

00:50:59.920 like X already

00:51:00.560 does can feed

00:51:01.480 you their own

00:51:02.280 platform,

00:51:02.800 a separate stream.

00:51:04.320 I think Elon

00:51:05.280 has gotten

00:51:05.960 pretty close

00:51:06.880 to that at X.

00:51:08.160 Not as close

00:51:09.040 as I would love

00:51:09.680 to see it,

00:51:10.680 but we're so

00:51:11.340 grateful because,

00:51:12.640 I mean,

00:51:12.960 the impact

00:51:13.560 that he's had

00:51:14.460 has been so

00:51:14.960 enormous in terms

00:51:16.280 of ending

00:51:17.060 of ending

00:51:17.080 this censorship

00:51:18.820 fact-checking

00:51:20.160 mafia.

00:51:21.620 Mark Zuckerberg

00:51:22.480 at Meta

00:51:23.160 earlier this year

00:51:23.960 decided he was

00:51:24.560 going to copy

00:51:25.100 the Elon Musk

00:51:26.340 model of

00:51:26.920 crowdsourcing,

00:51:28.200 which is what

00:51:28.680 the spirit

00:51:29.260 of the First 0.77

00:51:29.680 Amendment is.

00:51:30.200 We crowdsource

00:51:30.800 truth with the

00:51:31.460 First Amendment.

00:51:32.580 And then we just

00:51:33.080 saw Google

00:51:33.760 yesterday in a

00:51:35.480 letter to

00:51:36.200 Chairman Jim

00:51:36.940 Jordan in the

00:51:37.540 House so that

00:51:38.660 they would move

00:51:39.240 to something

00:51:39.740 more like that.

00:51:41.120 So those are

00:51:41.700 good directions,

00:51:42.860 but for me,

00:51:43.900 that should be

00:51:44.480 the only issue

00:51:45.120 of Section 230

00:51:45.840 reform is to

00:51:47.000 actually expand

00:51:49.040 the speech that's

00:51:50.480 allowed, not

00:51:51.440 restricted.

00:51:52.300 What they want

00:51:52.860 to do is they

00:51:53.640 want to basically

00:51:54.360 give the deep

00:51:55.960 state, for lack

00:51:56.900 of a better word,

00:51:57.780 DHS, NSF,

00:51:59.860 DOD, the power

00:52:01.420 to kind of choose

00:52:02.460 the people that

00:52:03.620 will decide what

00:52:04.180 the truth is as

00:52:05.040 these NGOs who

00:52:06.080 would then get NSF

00:52:07.080 money, which is

00:52:08.040 public money,

00:52:08.800 National Science

00:52:09.200 Foundation money,

00:52:10.380 and that they

00:52:10.880 would then get

00:52:11.360 special access to

00:52:12.400 the data.

00:52:12.980 I mean, this was

00:52:13.340 their whole vision

00:52:13.960 and they were

00:52:14.260 close to achieving

00:52:15.100 it.

00:52:15.300 We only really

00:52:15.760 discovered it

00:52:16.360 with the Twitter

00:52:16.820 files.

00:52:18.020 That's their

00:52:18.660 holy grail, to be

00:52:19.460 able to control

00:52:19.980 it that way.

00:52:21.360 They're set back

00:52:22.300 in the United

00:52:22.700 States, but they

00:52:23.660 are moving for

00:52:24.520 sure in that

00:52:25.500 direction in

00:52:26.400 Europe, Britain,

00:52:28.280 Brazil, and

00:52:29.060 certainly California

00:52:29.820 would like to do

00:52:30.420 the same.

00:52:30.940 I hope that if

00:52:31.620 Gavin does sign

00:52:32.420 that atrocious

00:52:33.080 legislation that you

00:52:34.060 were describing,

00:52:34.880 Tucker, I hope

00:52:36.180 that the Supreme

00:52:36.720 Court, or that

00:52:37.480 the courts strike it

00:52:38.520 down.

00:52:39.200 They struck down

00:52:39.960 the last California

00:52:41.180 censorship initiative,

00:52:42.300 which was aiming

00:52:42.860 at banning AI

00:52:45.800 parodies, and that

00:52:48.100 got struck down

00:52:48.700 by a judge in a

00:52:49.480 very eloquent

00:52:50.220 decision.

00:52:51.520 But that's kind

00:52:52.000 of where we're

00:52:52.360 at and why I

00:52:53.240 think you're special

00:52:55.000 on this is so

00:52:55.760 important, because

00:52:56.300 we're on a knife's

00:52:57.000 edge.

00:52:57.220 On the one hand, I

00:52:57.760 think we're making

00:52:58.200 some good progress

00:52:58.980 here in the United

00:52:59.520 States in exposing

00:53:00.700 the censorship and

00:53:02.220 defunding it, but I

00:53:04.260 think worldwide the

00:53:05.160 trends are in the

00:53:05.780 wrong direction, and

00:53:06.800 on college campuses

00:53:07.820 with young people,

00:53:08.920 unfortunately, we've

00:53:10.480 seen an increase of

00:53:11.600 support among

00:53:12.320 censorship, really

00:53:13.200 every generation,

00:53:14.420 from baby boomers 1.00

00:53:15.180 to Gen Xers to

00:53:16.040 millennials to

00:53:16.720 Zoomers, that we 0.71

00:53:18.240 see support for

00:53:19.000 censorship going up,

00:53:20.060 and it's exactly like

00:53:21.180 what you were

00:53:21.580 saying.

00:53:22.060 It's about protecting

00:53:23.380 feelings.

00:53:24.420 It's this, you know,

00:53:25.600 to use a bit of

00:53:26.160 jargon, it's this

00:53:26.960 expressive individualism,

00:53:28.440 which is that my

00:53:29.040 feelings are like the

00:53:29.980 most important thing

00:53:30.780 in the world, and

00:53:31.400 if my feelings are

00:53:32.220 hurt, then somebody

00:53:32.960 has to pay a price.

00:53:34.680 That, sadly, is the

00:53:36.040 ideology, and that's

00:53:37.040 why I think the

00:53:37.540 censorship is in

00:53:38.880 this broader, you

00:53:40.960 know, cultural

00:53:41.640 decline, you know,

00:53:42.820 where it's like the

00:53:43.820 intolerance and the

00:53:45.700 entitlement that people

00:53:47.100 feel are these big

00:53:48.620 forces that have been,

00:53:49.860 I think, driving those

00:53:50.740 demands for

00:53:51.220 censorship.

00:53:52.260 I think everything

00:53:53.340 you've said is

00:53:53.880 absolutely true.

00:53:55.040 I think it may even

00:53:56.280 be more insidious than

00:53:57.320 that, however.

00:53:57.900 I think that there

00:53:58.560 are decent people

00:54:00.200 who've had their best

00:54:01.640 impulses hijacked by

00:54:03.500 totalitarians and

00:54:05.320 used against them.

00:54:06.120 In other words, I

00:54:06.660 think there are

00:54:07.280 good people,

00:54:08.380 Americans, mostly 0.58

00:54:09.080 women, to be totally 1.00

00:54:10.340 blunt about it, who

00:54:11.660 are like, oh, we

00:54:12.500 can't be mean to this

00:54:13.560 or that group.

00:54:14.200 Well, I think that's a

00:54:14.900 good impulse by that.

00:54:15.920 We shouldn't be mean

00:54:16.500 to any group, and the

00:54:18.040 weaker they are, the

00:54:19.220 more careful we should

00:54:20.020 be about being mean to

00:54:20.840 them because you don't

00:54:21.300 want to be a bully,

00:54:21.920 right?

00:54:22.440 That's a good impulse.

00:54:24.060 But that impulse is

00:54:25.120 hijacked by the censors

00:54:26.660 who are acting on their

00:54:27.480 own behalf, not on

00:54:29.060 behalf of whatever

00:54:29.720 marginalized group they

00:54:30.840 claim they're acting on

00:54:31.540 behalf of.

00:54:32.160 They don't care about

00:54:32.740 those groups,

00:54:33.560 obviously.

00:54:34.520 The lives of black 0.57

00:54:35.540 black people in inner 0.98

00:54:36.040 cities did not improve

00:54:36.860 after the George Floyd

00:54:37.680 riots, obviously.

00:54:39.420 But they hijack that

00:54:41.580 and they say, if you

00:54:42.540 care about the

00:54:43.420 weakest among us, you

00:54:45.840 will get on board with

00:54:46.620 censorship.

00:54:47.780 I think that's really

00:54:49.040 clever and insidious and

00:54:51.840 evil, but effective.

00:54:52.880 Yeah, I think that's

00:54:55.880 right.

00:54:56.220 I think it's a

00:54:57.980 manipulation.

00:54:59.620 It just shows how

00:55:00.700 emotional the culture

00:55:02.420 has gotten, that you

00:55:03.900 can appeal to those

00:55:05.500 feelings.

00:55:06.640 I mean, Tucker, it's so

00:55:07.520 easy to show how much

00:55:09.340 of an abuse of power you

00:55:10.420 can get with these hate

00:55:11.500 speech laws.

00:55:12.380 I mean, it's worth

00:55:12.820 considering, for example,

00:55:14.260 you'll get people that

00:55:14.920 will be like, well, are

00:55:16.000 you defending the right

00:55:17.220 of people to call for

00:55:18.900 genocide?

00:55:19.980 And you kind of go, oh,

00:55:20.500 my God, well, no, I mean,

00:55:21.240 that's horrible.

00:55:21.700 I don't want people to

00:55:23.440 kind of go, so we'll

00:55:24.800 carve that out.

00:55:25.640 But then you kind of go,

00:55:26.560 well, wait a second.

00:55:26.980 So the same people that

00:55:28.480 are saying that to you

00:55:29.520 are the ones that point

00:55:31.320 out as soon as you talk

00:55:32.680 about the American

00:55:33.600 experiment of the 17th

00:55:35.680 and 18th and 19th

00:55:36.720 centuries, that the

00:55:38.140 European settlers

00:55:39.400 committed a genocide to

00:55:40.980 create the United

00:55:41.560 States of America.

00:55:42.560 So how hard would it be

00:55:44.240 to criticize somebody

00:55:45.900 that, say, praised

00:55:47.100 America, praised the

00:55:49.200 Western expansion,

00:55:50.320 praised the West,

00:55:51.060 the West opening up

00:55:52.540 and the European

00:55:53.060 settlers, frankly,

00:55:55.100 taking over the United,

00:55:56.020 taking over this land

00:55:57.120 from indigenous people,

00:55:58.640 someone could say

00:55:59.280 that's defending genocide.

00:56:00.540 So you see how easy

00:56:01.720 and quickly it comes.

00:56:02.800 Of course.

00:56:03.040 I'll give you another

00:56:03.440 example.

00:56:04.440 Institute for Strategic

00:56:05.560 Dialogue, which is one

00:56:06.800 of these deeply sinister,

00:56:08.520 I mean, they would not

00:56:09.180 return any phone calls

00:56:10.200 or whatever, and they

00:56:10.860 personally smeared me

00:56:13.760 and a lot of others.

00:56:14.680 Wait, wait, wait, can I

00:56:16.280 ask you to, as Stupsu,

00:56:17.880 the Center for Strategic

00:56:19.060 Dialogue didn't want

00:56:20.280 any dialogue?

00:56:22.260 Yeah, the Institute for

00:56:23.420 Strategic Dialogue

00:56:24.120 refused to have dialogue.

00:56:26.100 I'm not surprised.

00:56:27.160 Creepy, creepy group 0.84

00:56:28.760 close to British

00:56:29.660 intelligence.

00:56:30.640 I mean, it's just like,

00:56:32.740 I mean, close to I'm

00:56:33.920 being generous, you know,

00:56:35.040 like clearly an

00:56:35.760 intermediary with deep

00:56:38.020 state British

00:56:38.660 organizations that is

00:56:39.780 very interested in

00:56:40.560 censoring Americans.

00:56:41.240 And we see this dynamic

00:56:42.220 a lot where they, you

00:56:43.520 know, the Brits, you

00:56:44.340 know, pick on Americans, 0.89

00:56:45.800 the British groups pick

00:56:46.520 on Americans because,

00:56:48.680 you know, the U.S.

00:56:49.520 intelligence community

00:56:51.240 can't directly go after

00:56:52.860 Americans.

00:56:53.240 So they get their

00:56:53.820 British allies to do

00:56:56.340 it.

00:56:56.580 And this is a group that

00:56:57.540 labeled, along with the

00:56:59.400 Center for Countering

00:56:59.980 Digital Hate, which is

00:57:01.060 equally sinister

00:57:01.920 organization, very

00:57:02.860 connected to the Labour

00:57:03.580 Party of Britain, they 0.99

00:57:05.020 label criticism of

00:57:06.460 George Soros as

00:57:08.860 anti-Semitic.

00:57:10.040 And Tucker, I'm not

00:57:10.940 saying criticism of

00:57:12.260 George Soros and

00:57:13.720 even noticing that

00:57:15.120 he's Jewish.

00:57:16.140 It wasn't even that.

00:57:17.020 It wasn't like they

00:57:17.580 said the Jewish

00:57:18.580 philanthropist George

00:57:19.660 Soros. 0.78

00:57:19.940 They'd be like, just

00:57:20.840 criticizing George

00:57:22.400 Soros was anti-Semitic.

00:57:24.640 That's how crazy it 0.69

00:57:26.720 is and got that.

00:57:29.120 And, you know, you

00:57:29.580 look at the number of

00:57:30.100 institutions that have

00:57:30.900 been putting this.

00:57:31.480 It's the European 1.00

00:57:32.000 Union.

00:57:32.740 It's NATO.

00:57:33.720 It's the United 0.68

00:57:34.600 Nations.

00:57:35.520 It's Germany, France, 0.97

00:57:37.160 Britain.

00:57:38.060 The United States is

00:57:38.680 really powerful.

00:57:39.300 And I think that the

00:57:40.820 president did a good

00:57:41.580 job pushing back

00:57:42.640 against those types of

00:57:43.720 people around the

00:57:44.460 world.

00:57:44.900 But it is important to

00:57:46.040 remember that the

00:57:46.520 European economy is

00:57:47.580 bigger than the United

00:57:48.500 States economy.

00:57:49.240 And certainly when you

00:57:50.180 go and kind of look at a

00:57:51.380 world with this

00:57:52.760 incredible economic

00:57:54.000 power of China and the

00:57:55.720 gravity it exercises and

00:57:57.280 all these other

00:57:57.720 countries in the world,

00:57:58.420 including Europe,

00:57:59.900 including Brazil.

00:58:00.920 I mean, it was notable

00:58:01.800 that when Trump punished

00:58:02.980 Brazil with tariffs for

00:58:05.080 its censorship and

00:58:06.200 banning their opposition

00:58:08.600 party leader and the

00:58:09.860 leading presidential

00:58:10.520 candidate, Bolsonaro,

00:58:12.060 that China made up the 0.97

00:58:13.200 difference in the loss of

00:58:14.480 trade.

00:58:15.120 So you sort of start to

00:58:16.100 see the world, you know,

00:58:18.180 and particularly get this

00:58:19.160 kind of organic, you

00:58:20.560 know, decline of real

00:58:21.660 belief and support in

00:58:22.860 free speech with a kind of

00:58:24.440 global move towards this

00:58:26.040 censorship industrial complex

00:58:27.960 system of censorship by

00:58:30.160 proxy, it is disturbing

00:58:31.760 because they can exercise

00:58:32.900 economic power over our

00:58:34.240 platforms.

00:58:34.720 And, you know, I mean, I

00:58:36.340 think Elon has shown good

00:58:37.860 reason that we can, you

00:58:39.020 know, basically trust what

00:58:40.420 he's done.

00:58:40.980 I think he's made great

00:58:41.720 decisions for the most

00:58:43.860 part since he's taken over

00:58:45.160 the platform.

00:58:45.680 But, you know, if anything

00:58:46.660 were to happen to Elon, I

00:58:47.820 mean, these companies, Mark

00:58:49.040 Zuckerberg, Google, Sundar

00:58:51.120 Pichai, they've shown

00:58:52.220 themselves to be quite 0.99

00:58:53.140 cowardly.

00:58:54.660 Facebook was worried about

00:58:56.640 the lack of help from the

00:58:58.440 Biden administration.

00:58:59.140 It was enough to get

00:59:00.120 Facebook to censor because

00:59:01.880 they were worried about

00:59:02.840 not having enough help

00:59:04.160 from the Biden

00:59:04.700 administration to retrieve

00:59:06.200 their very valuable user

00:59:07.720 data from Europe, which

00:59:08.920 their laws require.

00:59:10.340 And that's why they

00:59:11.520 agreed to do censorship

00:59:13.140 that even their own

00:59:14.180 social scientists within

00:59:15.440 Facebook said would

00:59:17.060 backfire because they

00:59:18.300 were like, look, if you

00:59:18.940 go censor mothers 1.00

00:59:20.620 sharing information about

00:59:22.420 the COVID vaccine side

00:59:24.200 effects, it will make

00:59:25.300 mothers more nervous.

00:59:26.080 That's what the internal

00:59:27.260 people at Facebook said

00:59:29.080 and the Facebook execs

00:59:30.240 were like, we better just

00:59:30.940 give the Biden

00:59:31.520 administration what they

00:59:32.280 want, otherwise they're

00:59:32.980 not going to help us

00:59:33.540 with our data in Europe.

00:59:34.620 So it doesn't, I mean,

00:59:36.840 it's not hard to imagine,

00:59:38.800 you know, the power that

00:59:39.840 these states can exercise

00:59:40.880 on these platforms and I

00:59:42.020 don't think that that

00:59:43.000 threat has gone away.

00:59:45.640 It doesn't seem like a

00:59:46.540 good system if one, you

00:59:49.500 know, South African born

00:59:50.780 naturalized American is the

00:59:52.920 only thing standing

00:59:54.000 between us and

00:59:54.860 tyranny.

00:59:55.780 I mean, I really think

00:59:56.680 that the media wouldn't

00:59:58.560 be, I mean, I work in

00:59:59.920 the media, my whole life

01:00:00.820 I've worked in the media.

01:00:01.800 Elon Musk did this.

01:00:03.240 Elon Musk did all this

01:00:04.980 and he did it because I

01:00:06.860 think he says, because he

01:00:08.300 believes in it, whatever

01:00:09.320 the cause, he did it.

01:00:11.040 He opened up everything.

01:00:12.200 Yeah.

01:00:12.720 So, but that, which I'm

01:00:14.480 will never stop being

01:00:15.440 grateful for, obviously.

01:00:16.900 However, that's a pretty

01:00:18.400 thin thread kind of holding

01:00:20.860 your civilization aloft, no?

01:00:24.580 Yeah.

01:00:25.120 I mean, I, the things I

01:00:26.200 really worry about are

01:00:27.520 those numbers, you know,

01:00:28.960 I mean, you've had, you

01:00:30.140 know, you know, just those

01:00:32.040 numbers of young people

01:00:33.140 that, I mean, the number

01:00:34.460 of young people, the number

01:00:35.860 of college students, the

01:00:37.640 share of college students

01:00:39.080 that said that violence may

01:00:40.580 sometimes be necessary to

01:00:42.660 stop a campus speaker was

01:00:45.100 under 20% in the year 2020.

01:00:47.140 It's 34% right now.

01:00:50.640 That means one third of

01:00:52.000 college students think that

01:00:53.080 violence might be necessary

01:00:54.300 to stop a campus speaker.

01:00:57.020 That is, I mean, that's

01:00:58.720 pathological.

01:00:59.500 I don't know if there's

01:00:59.900 another word, but that's

01:01:00.620 bonkers, crazy, scary

01:01:03.280 behavior. 0.65

01:01:04.140 And so, you know, remember

01:01:05.740 George Orwell, he was,

01:01:07.660 you know, a leftist, wrote

01:01:10.860 1984 because he had read

01:01:13.020 James Burnham, who's this

01:01:14.380 very famous, you know,

01:01:15.460 former Trotsky guy who

01:01:16.460 becomes a conservative and

01:01:17.700 writes, you know, this book

01:01:19.800 about the managerial state,

01:01:21.380 which is basically about how

01:01:22.820 this totalitarianism would

01:01:25.000 kind of emerge out of the

01:01:26.860 society and out of the

01:01:28.440 state in these, in these

01:01:30.940 very specific safetyist, you

01:01:33.720 know, harm reduction demands

01:01:35.980 that, that you would sort of

01:01:37.320 get a whole kind of state of

01:01:38.980 busy body, you know, nanny 1.00

01:01:41.640 state people that wanted to

01:01:43.120 police the speech. 0.60

01:01:44.200 I mean, that was his

01:01:44.880 prediction in 19, whatever

01:01:46.140 that was, 1947, I think, or,

01:01:48.620 you know, when 1984 came out.

01:01:51.160 That is, was so brilliant.

01:01:53.020 I mean, it's terrifying,

01:01:53.880 brilliantly pressing it

01:01:54.940 because that's what I worry

01:01:56.400 about.

01:01:56.800 And I think, you know, I saw

01:01:58.540 the, obviously very moved by

01:02:00.160 all the Charlie Kirk, what's

01:02:02.020 the response to the Charlie

01:02:03.240 Kirk assassin and the desire to

01:02:05.320 go into universities.

01:02:06.200 I think we need to figure out

01:02:08.500 how to move that number down

01:02:10.280 so that people really do be,

01:02:12.120 the young people become, and

01:02:13.320 everybody becomes more

01:02:14.700 comfortable with, yeah, I mean,

01:02:17.080 look, I mean, Charlie really

01:02:18.200 was inspiring in the way that

01:02:21.020 he would go into places.

01:02:22.120 And of course, the sign said,

01:02:23.140 prove me wrong.

01:02:24.300 He was saying, look, I'm open

01:02:25.800 to debate.

01:02:26.520 It's exactly, he, I mean, it's

01:02:28.760 so, I don't know, ironic is not

01:02:30.220 the right word.

01:02:30.860 It's so powerful that the

01:02:34.340 person that was assassinated

01:02:36.760 was the person doing what we

01:02:38.880 need the most of, that the

01:02:40.980 person that was killed was the

01:02:42.440 person who was doing what we

01:02:44.260 need to see much, much more of

01:02:46.220 at the high schools and the

01:02:47.640 colleges, which is getting

01:02:49.040 people very comfortable with

01:02:51.300 having difficult conversations

01:02:52.940 and with having conversations

01:02:54.200 with people whose values you

01:02:55.560 don't share and who believe

01:02:56.860 things that you find

01:02:57.660 reprehensible.

01:02:59.180 And that is at the heart of

01:03:00.320 it.

01:03:00.400 And I don't know.

01:03:01.140 I mean, it's sort of, what's

01:03:02.100 terrifying is that, you know,

01:03:04.700 those numbers of intolerance

01:03:06.580 kept increasing over the last

01:03:08.500 10 years.

01:03:09.260 I hope that we've hit an

01:03:10.320 inflection point.

01:03:11.440 I will say, Tucker, one number

01:03:12.980 that did change that gave that

01:03:14.540 heart that I felt some heart

01:03:15.660 in was that Pew had found that

01:03:17.860 the share of Democrats that

01:03:19.940 thought the government should be

01:03:20.960 involved in censoring

01:03:21.760 misinformation online had

01:03:23.020 risen from 40% in 2018 to

01:03:25.700 70% in 2023.

01:03:28.620 They did the stud, the same

01:03:30.120 question earlier this year,

01:03:31.640 and it's now declined to 58%.

01:03:33.620 So I do feel like there is a

01:03:34.840 chance at which the, I mean,

01:03:36.380 it's still terrible, but like

01:03:37.840 the, the, the, the sense in

01:03:39.320 which that trance has broken,

01:03:40.860 you know, that hypnotic, we have

01:03:42.980 to fight misinformation that

01:03:44.260 just bonkers, anti-American,

01:03:47.020 un-American impulse.

01:03:48.440 It feels like it was broken, but I

01:03:50.640 still think there's a lot of that,

01:03:52.020 you know, cultural work that we

01:03:53.360 need to do to really educating

01:03:54.740 kids because I just don't think

01:03:56.740 free speech is intuitive.

01:03:57.680 I mean, you go to a playground

01:03:58.840 and you see little kids playing

01:04:00.100 and they just are yelling, shut 0.98

01:04:01.920 up, shut up at each other all 1.00

01:04:03.280 the time. 0.99

01:04:04.040 It's our natural instinct.

01:04:05.500 You hear something you don't

01:04:06.440 like, you want to shut them up

01:04:07.840 and the alternative to listen to

01:04:09.900 somebody and actively disagree

01:04:11.660 with them and maybe think about

01:04:13.500 how to respond or just figure out

01:04:14.840 if you agree or disagree.

01:04:16.120 It takes, it's like a muscle.

01:04:17.540 It just takes practice.

01:04:18.420 And I think we have to teach the

01:04:19.780 kids, you know, both the K through

01:04:22.040 12 and the college students how to

01:04:24.180 do that and that doing that is a

01:04:25.960 core value that will be rewarded

01:04:29.060 in life and we should be

01:04:30.880 celebrating rather than the

01:04:32.340 opposite, which is this desire to

01:04:33.940 silence and shut down.

01:04:35.540 Are you concerned that

01:04:36.460 technological advances that

01:04:38.400 we're in the middle of really

01:04:39.820 will be harnessed to affect

01:04:43.020 censorship without people even

01:04:44.800 knowing it?

01:04:45.320 I mean, you did the Twitter files

01:04:46.700 with Matt Taibbi and found what

01:04:49.700 I don't think anyone knew.

01:04:50.620 There was this vast censorship

01:04:52.360 program at Twitter and but most

01:04:55.080 users had the sense that, you

01:04:56.720 know, it's a liberal website,

01:04:57.660 whatever, they're taking the

01:04:58.380 conservatives off, but had no

01:04:59.880 idea about the specifics until

01:05:02.960 you brought them to light.

01:05:04.260 Does AI increase the power of the

01:05:06.860 platforms to take information

01:05:09.520 off the site without anyone even

01:05:11.180 knowing it's been taken off?

01:05:14.180 Yeah, I mean, just to answer that

01:05:15.800 question, I'll preface it by saying,

01:05:17.260 of course, I watched very closely

01:05:18.940 your interview with Sam Altman,

01:05:20.820 where you asked, I think, some

01:05:22.160 very important questions, which

01:05:23.900 is what is the moral framework

01:05:25.520 with which his AI will follow?

01:05:29.060 That is the right question.

01:05:31.560 And of course, it remains an

01:05:33.180 ever-present question.

01:05:34.400 It's not like it will never go

01:05:35.780 away.

01:05:36.900 Ultimately, these decisions about

01:05:38.720 what gets censored and what the AI

01:05:40.580 censors for us are made by people.

01:05:43.500 And so you look at the worst

01:05:44.780 episodes of censorship over the

01:05:46.500 last five to 10 years.

01:05:49.060 You can find the people that were

01:05:50.580 demanding the censorship.

01:05:51.880 You can find the groups they

01:05:53.080 created to demand it.

01:05:55.140 That it was human decisions and

01:05:57.540 that, in fact, at the company

01:05:59.660 level in the Twitter files, there

01:06:02.040 was a huge amount of debate

01:06:03.380 around, I mean, not enough, a

01:06:05.380 huge amount of debate around

01:06:06.460 deplatforming the president of the

01:06:08.520 United States, like removing the

01:06:10.540 account of the president of the

01:06:11.560 United States, which is so

01:06:12.320 insane.

01:06:13.820 It was a big deal, obviously.

01:06:15.220 It was talked about.

01:06:15.940 And then, of course, you could see

01:06:16.800 it.

01:06:17.460 Same thing with the Hunter Biden

01:06:19.180 laptop, where the FBI ran a

01:06:20.900 deception operation against the

01:06:23.140 social media platforms illegally

01:06:25.020 in an illegal conspiracy that

01:06:28.040 included spreading disinformation

01:06:29.460 about the laptop.

01:06:31.260 That was obviously a very elaborate

01:06:33.400 thing that a lot of people could

01:06:34.780 see and were getting kind of

01:06:35.960 glimpses into.

01:06:37.320 There was also just the humdrum or

01:06:39.800 the ordinary kind of de-amplification.

01:06:43.040 So you remember Twitter famously

01:06:44.320 said, oh, we don't shadow ban.

01:06:46.160 That was the language that people

01:06:47.500 had used.

01:06:48.480 Well, of course they did.

01:06:49.900 They called it something

01:06:50.860 different.

01:06:51.460 It was called like, you know, do

01:06:53.280 not amplify lists, for example,

01:06:55.900 it's like a kind of blacklist that

01:06:57.120 they ran or a trends blacklist.

01:06:59.020 Don't let them show up on the

01:06:59.920 trends thing.

01:07:00.940 So there's just all a million

01:07:02.020 dials, of course, as you know, 0.77

01:07:04.140 Tucker, to like kind of turn these

01:07:05.280 things up and down.

01:07:06.220 Yeah.

01:07:06.340 The AI can help, but sometimes,

01:07:08.360 you know, like they wanted to go

01:07:09.260 after a QAnon conspiracy.

01:07:10.780 At one point, I reported this in

01:07:12.520 my Twitter files on the decision

01:07:14.040 to de-platform Trump.

01:07:15.660 And there was something around

01:07:16.740 like the Kraken, which I guess is

01:07:18.480 like a giant like squid in the

01:07:20.420 ocean.

01:07:20.780 I think it's, you know, they were

01:07:22.220 like the Kraken was somehow tied

01:07:23.440 into QAnon conspiracy theories.

01:07:25.580 And they wanted to censor that,

01:07:27.120 which is also insane.

01:07:28.320 Like they wanted to literally stop

01:07:29.740 people from talking about Kraken,

01:07:31.460 like on Twitter.

01:07:32.920 And then somebody figured out that

01:07:34.300 the Seattle, I think hockey team

01:07:36.540 is the Kraken and that all these

01:07:38.380 tweets around hockey were getting

01:07:40.220 like swept up in it.

01:07:41.580 So it's like, you know, it's like

01:07:43.080 I worry about it, but ultimately

01:07:44.580 it's not a bunch of censors in

01:07:46.320 like the Philippines or even I

01:07:48.840 think Palo Alto, these like the

01:07:50.220 worst forms of censorship are being

01:07:51.400 decided at the executive level.

01:07:53.080 But as I said, my view is that if

01:07:55.600 you have section 230, which is what

01:07:57.780 gives you the power to be a

01:07:59.660 monopoly, it's like literally like

01:08:01.880 the path, like the permit to

01:08:03.420 operate as a functional, natural

01:08:05.100 monopoly, I think that you should

01:08:07.680 have to give the user, the adult

01:08:11.160 user complete control over all

01:08:13.680 legal content and you can censor

01:08:16.180 the illegal content.

01:08:17.840 And I do think we should, there's

01:08:18.840 a whole separate thing on kids,

01:08:20.780 you know, which I think is

01:08:21.880 complicated because they're using

01:08:23.340 the kids right now in Australia.

01:08:25.020 They're literally using the kids

01:08:26.620 in Australia to create digital

01:08:28.040 identifications as a way to

01:08:29.280 censorship, which I think we should

01:08:30.620 be alarmed about.

01:08:31.420 So, but nonetheless, as a father

01:08:33.000 who's seen the impact of social

01:08:34.100 media on adolescents, I do worry

01:08:36.260 about it.

01:08:37.160 But I do think like if you're

01:08:37.960 going to have section 230, that's

01:08:39.640 that should be the agreement.

01:08:42.800 Yeah.

01:08:43.260 And I thank you for describing it

01:08:44.820 as using the kids because it is

01:08:46.620 the most obviously transparently

01:08:49.160 cynical attempt to censor

01:08:51.940 political speech by using the

01:08:54.060 suffering of children about whom

01:08:55.460 they care nothing.

01:08:56.020 Obviously, um, there's no

01:08:57.960 demonstrated care for kids.

01:08:59.680 Like how are the schools, you

01:09:01.180 know, they just don't care.

01:09:02.700 Oh, um, right.

01:09:03.800 And any pretext will do.

01:09:05.280 I mean, the terrorism thing was

01:09:07.080 huge, as you know, um, under the

01:09:09.580 Bush administration, it's

01:09:10.680 terrorism.

01:09:11.700 What is that exactly?

01:09:12.820 Can you, can you define it for

01:09:13.740 me?

01:09:13.880 No, they can't.

01:09:14.800 Um, I'm wondering though, what's

01:09:16.660 the recourse.

01:09:17.700 So these are decisions you just

01:09:19.000 described that are being made at

01:09:20.320 like the highest level of global

01:09:23.020 global society.

01:09:24.200 I mean, the richest man in the

01:09:25.380 world decided to restore free

01:09:26.980 speech to the United States.

01:09:29.180 The president of the United

01:09:30.460 States helped him, um, judge,

01:09:33.940 federal judges rule on these

01:09:35.300 things, but let's say we have a

01:09:37.080 different president and there's

01:09:38.400 no Elon or his commitment

01:09:39.620 changes and there's a different

01:09:41.360 Supreme court, uh, like where's

01:09:45.500 the power to fight back against

01:09:47.840 this is, can you imagine a kind of

01:09:49.660 civil disobedience that people

01:09:51.920 could use to regain their speech?

01:09:54.520 Uh, I'm trying to think through

01:09:55.700 what that would look like.

01:09:57.480 Well, look at the top of my list

01:09:59.320 is that we are in something called

01:10:01.860 the NATO organization and it has a

01:10:04.580 treaty that requires that we only

01:10:07.580 have as members free democracies.

01:10:11.360 We only are going to defend

01:10:13.460 countries that allow free speech and

01:10:16.680 that allow candidates, uh, people to

01:10:18.900 choose the candidates of their

01:10:19.860 choice.

01:10:20.280 Currently that is absolutely under

01:10:23.140 attack in Europe.

01:10:24.500 Romania has already prevented as you 1.00

01:10:27.060 interviewed the Romania has

01:10:28.720 prevented their presidential

01:10:30.160 front runner.

01:10:31.180 Now France is about to ban their

01:10:33.580 presidential front runner Marine

01:10:35.220 Le Pen in a completely trumped up

01:10:37.460 charge that the prime minister, the

01:10:40.020 last prime minister was already

01:10:41.700 guilty of and still, uh, came into

01:10:43.800 office.

01:10:44.940 Germany there's a, I just interviewed a

01:10:47.220 mayoral candidate who was banned for,

01:10:49.380 for like made up reasons because he

01:10:51.280 liked Lord of the Rings.

01:10:52.380 I'm not even kidding.

01:10:53.720 And he went to a book fair where

01:10:55.060 there were some people that the

01:10:56.080 intelligence services, uh, didn't like

01:10:58.560 people.

01:10:58.940 And that was like the basis of the

01:11:00.380 election council preventing him from

01:11:01.460 running.

01:11:02.000 And then they have these elaborate

01:11:03.260 censorship industrial complexes.

01:11:05.020 We're part of NATO.

01:11:06.540 Everybody knows that we're the main

01:11:08.100 event.

01:11:08.600 We subsidize it to the tune of, you

01:11:11.400 know, hundreds of billions of

01:11:12.940 dollars a year.

01:11:14.400 Like you, Tucker, I'm willing to die

01:11:16.620 for free speech and democracy.

01:11:18.440 Like I am with Seneca, uh, like the

01:11:21.080 Spartan slave boy in the great Seneca

01:11:23.020 passage. 0.72

01:11:24.220 I would rather die, you know, a free 0.98

01:11:26.820 man than live as a slave.

01:11:28.140 And so we, what we are willing to die

01:11:30.120 for, for freedom.

01:11:31.520 And I think we all care a lot about

01:11:32.940 Western civilization in Europe, but not

01:11:35.160 if they're going to, I don't want to

01:11:36.800 defend, I'm not going to, I don't want

01:11:38.220 to put my life on the line to defend

01:11:40.140 authoritarian sensorial autocracy autocracies

01:11:43.620 like France, Germany, and Romania and

01:11:46.420 potentially Britain.

01:11:47.240 So I think the president has, you know,

01:11:49.920 been pretty strong on it.

01:11:51.120 You know, they're still negotiating this

01:11:52.500 right now, but I just think that the

01:11:53.780 public certainly MAGA, but whatever

01:11:56.560 leftists are still in favor of free

01:11:58.180 speech out there, including, as you

01:11:59.480 mentioned, I think a lot of the pro

01:12:00.900 Palestinian folks that felt person, you

01:12:02.860 know, felt censored on Tik TOK and

01:12:04.220 elsewhere and have been censored in

01:12:05.900 other ways that we should all make

01:12:08.600 very clear that we don't want to be a 0.97

01:12:09.940 part of a military, uh, treaty that, uh,

01:12:13.960 has us risking our lives for, for

01:12:16.720 illiberal autocracies.

01:12:18.260 Like that's gotta be at the top of the

01:12:19.420 list, same thing with Brazil.

01:12:21.180 It's like, you know, okay.

01:12:23.880 I think people, Americans need to know we

01:12:25.500 should pay more for orange juice if it

01:12:28.280 means protecting our freedom of speech

01:12:30.420 that like our freedom of speech.

01:12:31.620 It's not like a small thing.

01:12:33.080 It's like the main event.

01:12:34.340 It's like the reason why America is the

01:12:36.020 greatest country that's ever existed.

01:12:38.280 And certainly the greatest country in

01:12:39.580 the world still, despite all of our

01:12:41.220 problems and the country that everybody

01:12:42.940 wants to live in, it's because of the

01:12:44.260 first amendment of free speech.

01:12:45.300 So it just has to be an absolute

01:12:46.900 non-negotiable.

01:12:48.300 So I said, this is the number one issue.

01:12:50.220 If you don't have free speech, you don't

01:12:51.560 have anything.

01:12:52.180 You don't have democracy.

01:12:53.220 You don't have your dignity.

01:12:56.140 You don't have prosperity.

01:12:57.140 You don't have, infrastructure can't

01:12:59.060 work.

01:12:59.340 It's just, everything depends on free

01:13:01.520 speech.

01:13:01.920 And so it's just got to be an absolute

01:13:03.660 issue for the administration in these

01:13:07.000 negotiations.

01:13:07.840 And yeah, I mean, I think civil

01:13:09.780 disobedience, if we see, you know, when

01:13:12.560 things get to that level is always, should

01:13:14.460 always be an option, particularly for

01:13:15.900 defending something as essential and

01:13:18.180 sacred as the first amendment.

01:13:20.460 Do you have any guesses or theories as

01:13:23.560 to what happened to Great Britain, which

01:13:25.480 of all countries is the closest to

01:13:27.080 ours, has the deepest historical ties, and

01:13:30.280 is now arresting more than 12,000 people

01:13:32.320 a year for saying things the government

01:13:34.260 doesn't like?

01:13:35.480 That, it really, it's hard for me even to

01:13:37.600 digest that.

01:13:38.960 But I'm also confused by it.

01:13:40.920 How did that happen?

01:13:42.500 Yeah, I mean, look, you had Christopher

01:13:46.600 Caldwell on the other week, and I thought

01:13:49.160 he did an incredible job explaining what's

01:13:52.400 happened to Europe.

01:13:53.180 But I mean, I think we're, I think it's

01:13:55.280 fair to say that we're at the end of an

01:13:57.260 80-year cycle that began in 1945 with the

01:14:00.100 end of World War II.

01:14:01.080 And the United States had the role of being

01:14:03.520 the, you know, really the main, you know,

01:14:06.360 the country that was at the center of this

01:14:08.340 new empire.

01:14:09.240 I mean, you can call it the American

01:14:10.400 empire, whatever you want to call it.

01:14:12.280 And we were trying to prevent another war

01:14:13.880 in Europe, and we pushed out an ideology

01:14:15.920 that you might call, R.R. Reno calls the

01:14:18.600 open society ideology.

01:14:21.340 And at first it made sense when you're

01:14:23.120 denazifying Germany and you're, you know,

01:14:26.880 whatever they did with Japan, moderating

01:14:29.860 Japan, and you're trying to kind of usher

01:14:31.860 in a liberal democratic Western order.

01:14:35.260 Made sense for a few decades.

01:14:36.780 Probably didn't make sense after 1990.

01:14:39.720 And it went too far.

01:14:41.300 And it obviously, we decimated our industries

01:14:43.360 by exporting them to China.

01:14:45.640 And, you know, created, you know, with the

01:14:47.820 help of George Soros, created this elaborate

01:14:49.680 NGO sector that basically pushed two things

01:14:52.280 at the same time.

01:14:52.980 Because I think the only way you can

01:14:54.100 understand the censorship and the demand

01:14:56.620 for totalitarian censorship in the kind of

01:14:59.000 mental space is to just also understand the

01:15:01.920 total disorder that they're creating in the

01:15:04.920 physical world.

01:15:06.080 You know, from like, as you're saying, the

01:15:07.720 unchecked mass migration, the collapse of

01:15:09.940 borders, people in boats, you know, people

01:15:12.780 with 14, you know, criminal prosecutions and

01:15:17.520 still let out on the street, despite their

01:15:19.700 schizophrenia to commit murder against refugees.

01:15:22.200 I mean, that disorder is, I think, I don't think it's a

01:15:25.900 coincidence that those two things are unleashed by the

01:15:29.580 same people at the same time.

01:15:31.060 I mean, Soros Foundation wants censorship.

01:15:33.180 They also want disorder and anarchy and lawlessness, you

01:15:38.440 know, at the street level, at the city level.

01:15:40.540 So I think that, you know, as that, you know, the

01:15:43.980 contradictions of their own, you know, ideology of just

01:15:48.340 sort of, you know, the guilt around the past and the

01:15:50.780 construction of these singularities of evil that were, you

01:15:54.080 know, the Holocaust, slavery, indigenous genocide, those

01:15:57.120 became new religious, the new original sins for this new 0.90

01:16:00.640 woke religion.

01:16:02.380 And, you know, it's funny because it was interesting.

01:16:04.720 You look, everyone looks at, I mean, everyone's seen the

01:16:06.400 data, you know, that really the border, the migration and the

01:16:09.900 illegal migration to the United States really wasn't nearly as

01:16:12.620 out of control, you know, before Trump, he campaigned on in

01:16:15.760 2016, but it really gets out of control as a kind of reaction

01:16:18.740 by Biden and the blob elites after 2020.

01:16:23.100 Europe's a slightly different story, but, you know, I think

01:16:26.620 it's just what it looks like.

01:16:27.840 There's just this woke religion has just absolutely displaced

01:16:32.020 the older story that we had of Western civilization, which is

01:16:35.420 that Christianity gave way to the enlightenment, the

01:16:38.560 enlightenment secularized a whole bunch of Christian values,

01:16:41.160 including the idea that we're all born with dignity and rights.

01:16:46.120 And we just, that old story just got replaced by this really 0.74

01:16:49.220 ugly story, which is that humans are a cancer on the earth, that 0.99

01:16:53.220 Western civilization is just genocidal. 0.98

01:16:55.860 And, you know, it's just the opposite of really what it's been

01:16:59.680 historically, which is a massively liberating phenomenon.

01:17:03.040 And we got stuck in this awful story, got taught in the schools,

01:17:06.300 it got taught in the universities, and it's just that beautiful open

01:17:10.100 society vision from 1946 just became its complete totalitarian

01:17:15.060 opposite.

01:17:16.460 And I think Britain really exemplifies that.

01:17:18.760 And it's worth knowing, by the way, too, because I think you've done such

01:17:20.540 a good job here, Tucker, of pointing out the left and right origins of

01:17:23.860 this, certainly like what we call the foreign policy establishment, the

01:17:26.360 blob.

01:17:26.980 They were behind the Online Safety Act in Britain that passed in 2023.

01:17:32.100 It was the conservative government that got it done.

01:17:35.440 But it was the same foreign policy blob that was behind our censorship

01:17:38.760 industrial complex.

01:17:40.400 And that was clearly emerged out of this effort to govern the American

01:17:43.980 empire and then was reacting to this just massive populist unrest to, you

01:17:50.260 know, out of control migration policies, energy policies that were aimed at

01:17:54.020 creating scarcity and high prices.

01:17:55.580 The trans madness were literally, I mean, that is just one where, I mean, if 1.00

01:18:00.420 you really want to like, it's like a David Cronenberg movie, you know, it's

01:18:03.720 like, it's these atrocities, physical atrocities that you're then not allowed

01:18:08.700 to talk about.

01:18:09.820 Like that you're then, if you actually deny, if you actually, I mean, they

01:18:13.240 wanted censorship on all of it.

01:18:14.500 We had a Twitter, they censored Megan Murphy for saying, but a man is not a 0.99

01:18:18.760 woman.

01:18:19.860 Like, that's what she said.

01:18:21.060 And they like de-platformed her.

01:18:22.320 I mean, you talk about like a terrifying scenario, we're in a scenario where it's

01:18:25.940 like these hideous medical experiments are being conducted on the bodies of

01:18:30.060 adolescents and mentally ill people.

01:18:32.600 And they were then trying to censor people talking about it and demanding that 0.81

01:18:36.620 you believe that it's possible to change your sex.

01:18:39.880 I mean, that's just how you kind of go.

01:18:41.080 That's how far gone we've got as a civilization.

01:18:44.720 You know, it's that we convinced ourselves that you could perform, you know,

01:18:48.340 biological alchemy.

01:18:49.660 And then we wanted to silence and suppress anybody who told the truth about it.

01:18:54.400 So, you know, I think there's a black pill moment where one could say that we're

01:18:59.140 pretty far gone, you know, if you're already at this place.

01:19:02.220 But I do think, you know, thanks to, you know, what you're saying to the opening of

01:19:06.880 the platform, to the success of people like you and Joe Rogan and the creation of

01:19:11.060 this alternative media universe.

01:19:12.560 I do think we have a chance to remake that case, not just for free speech, but really

01:19:18.960 for this amazing, you know, tiny moment in history where, like, actually everybody that's

01:19:25.260 a citizen of a country got to be free.

01:19:27.760 And that's a beautiful, wonderful thing.

01:19:30.900 And anybody that's ever traveled outside the United States, I think, can see that and

01:19:34.980 appreciate it.

01:19:35.700 It's the greatest thing that we have.

01:19:38.040 And the reason we have it is because we've reminded ourselves generationally, because

01:19:41.900 we told the story of it, this is the greatest thing that we have.

01:19:44.420 And I can't think of a greater tragedy, a more perverse tragedy, than the assassination

01:19:49.820 of Charlie Kirk being leveraged by people in order to construct a world that he hated and

01:19:55.960 fought against for his entire short life.

01:19:58.080 To use Charlie's assassination as a pretext for censorship, I mean, the mind struggles

01:20:04.640 even to understand that.

01:20:07.020 But that's how brazen people are.

01:20:08.400 So I hate to ask you this, but you've thought so deeply about it.

01:20:11.700 Maybe you have an answer.

01:20:12.520 I don't.

01:20:13.320 What's the motive for all this?

01:20:14.800 Like, why would you want to conduct hideous medical experiments on children? 0.64

01:20:19.780 It doesn't benefit you.

01:20:20.560 It doesn't benefit them.

01:20:21.420 Like, what is this, actually?

01:20:22.860 Yeah, I mean, you know, as you probably remember, in one of my last book on the homeless crisis,

01:20:30.160 I put a lot of emphasis on this desire from the left to be compassionate and to think of

01:20:36.060 ourselves as good people.

01:20:38.040 And that really, the idea, and it's really this immediate emotive, you know, like with

01:20:42.560 addiction, people that are crying out, they're saying, I'm fine, and I'm fine, and my living

01:20:47.500 in my waste and being sexually assaulted every night, I'm just fine, let me just smoke some

01:20:51.400 more fentanyl, everybody should know that that person needs an intervention so that

01:20:56.980 they stop harming themselves in public.

01:21:00.560 But the emotionalism and the sentimentality, that immediate appeal to, oh, no, it's somehow

01:21:06.000 cruel, oops, that it's somehow cruel to allow, you know, to enforce laws and mandate care

01:21:13.000 for people.

01:21:14.160 So on one hand, it does seem like this empathy of like, oh, we have to protect people.

01:21:17.500 But I also think there is something, you know, darker and more selfish, and frankly, more

01:21:22.900 hedonistic than that, which is, as you were saying, I mean, the ability to censor somebody

01:21:28.900 is an incredible act of power and domination.

01:21:32.540 It's not something that weak, the weak can't censor people.

01:21:35.800 I mean, you look at any movement for human liberation, like the weak don't have the power

01:21:40.340 to censor.

01:21:40.840 So the censorship comes from these really arrogant, overly empowered, overly powerful, entitled

01:21:47.260 elites displaying traits of, frankly, antisocial disorder with no empathy for the people that

01:21:54.380 they're censoring.

01:21:55.640 And so I think that my views are that there's certainly plenty of people that think that

01:22:00.000 that feel that they're being empathic.

01:22:01.540 But I think a lot of other people, it's will to power and nothing besides, to paraphrase

01:22:07.240 Nietzsche, where it's actually the pleasure of just controlling what people can say online.

01:22:14.480 I mean, the people, these censors have now, we've profiled them.

01:22:18.320 I mean, we've written, you know, we haven't published all of it, but we try to understand

01:22:22.480 the people that are doing this very deeply at a psychological level.

01:22:27.180 And they're just absolutely power hungry.

01:22:30.140 And they're completely arrogant, like they're enclosed minded, and frankly, not very smart. 0.80

01:22:35.080 I mean, that's the thing you forget about the totalitarians. 0.87

01:22:38.040 You know, it's depressing, because I think there's a lot, there's a story that's a story

01:22:41.460 that's getting told.

01:22:42.400 I won't say everybody knows by who, but somebody, there's somebody on the right that's sort

01:22:45.440 of telling a story about how terrible democracy is, and how if we had an autocracy, it would

01:22:51.320 be run by somebody competent, like Elon Musk and everything would work great. 1.00

01:22:54.220 Actually, the history of totalitarianism is that it's the incompetent, awful, idiotic 1.00

01:23:00.880 bureaucrats that are running things. 1.00

01:23:03.380 It's not like, it's not Mozart and Goethe and Nietzsche that are like, you know, running

01:23:07.780 things. 1.00

01:23:08.260 It's like these very crude, dumb people. 0.99

01:23:11.640 And so you see someone like Nina Jankiewicz or Rene DiResta. 0.99

01:23:15.600 These are really power hungry, very petty, small people.

01:23:19.760 There's so much kind of just a kind of almost like a neediness there.

01:23:24.140 You see it in some of them, a neediness for people to tell them how good they are and how

01:23:28.620 much they care.

01:23:30.040 A lot of like, you know, if you remember the movie Misery, the Kathy Bates character, I

01:23:33.380 sort of see a lot of that Kathy Bates energy of, you know, I'm going to take care of you,

01:23:37.580 but it's actually I'm going to dominate.

01:23:39.900 So I think that when we, I think that people sometimes sort of say it's suicidal empathy

01:23:44.840 or it's pathological altruism, and I know what they mean, I think that what's underneath

01:23:49.420 it is something darker, more nihilistic that is just feeding hedonistically off the power

01:23:56.960 of dominating and censoring and persecuting others that really isn't in service, you know,

01:24:04.500 as, you know, we've, you know, as the foundational spiritualities and, and philosophies of the

01:24:11.840 West have aimed at that power be used in service of, of beautiful values.

01:24:16.800 It's not, it's not in service of that.

01:24:18.500 It's just in service of their own individual expression of power.

01:24:22.000 And like you said, you know, if it's, if it's to censor you on COVID or antisemitism or

01:24:27.000 trans or migration or the Ukraine war, they don't care. 0.95

01:24:31.840 Like they're always wanting to find new ways to censor because it's coming from something

01:24:35.660 so deep, something so deep and frankly, pathological inside of them.

01:24:39.960 It's the war impulse is so similar in killing people being the ultimate expression of power.

01:24:45.120 You know, you can't create a life, but you can end it.

01:24:47.700 And there, there are people, and I would say Lindsey Graham is one of them, but there are

01:24:50.940 many who just derive pleasure from the idea of killing people, not just because they're

01:24:57.660 cruel, though, obviously they are, but because it makes them feel alive.

01:25:01.840 And I think there's something you see it in school administrators.

01:25:03.980 So I, I have, I really feel like we're on the cusp of like something great.

01:25:09.360 Charlie Kirk's memorial on Sunday made me feel that way.

01:25:12.300 I feel like it's not all darkness and like, don't take the black pill.

01:25:15.440 You know, there is light there.

01:25:17.680 And, um, so I feel that way, but then you see, I have to say video of Don Bacon, the Republican

01:25:24.940 congressman from Nebraska, the most normal state out of 50 saying, Oh yeah, yeah.

01:25:29.480 I'm talking to Jonathan Greenblatt, who's like a gargoyle from ADL, which is like the

01:25:35.240 most anti-human organization like I've ever dealt with in my life.

01:25:39.460 And you feel like, wow, if Don Bacon is taking orders from the ADL and Jonathan Greenblatt,

01:25:45.620 then like the fix is in, like it's a bipartisan conspiracy to strip people of their most basic

01:25:51.760 freedom.

01:25:54.120 Yeah.

01:25:54.520 I mean, I think that for me also, what comes up Tucker, and I, I know that this is something

01:25:59.020 that you are concerned about too, is that I think you were saying it before, like there's

01:26:03.500 a, there's a censorship and then there's, well, there's actually so many sides to the totalitarianism.

01:26:08.220 There's the censorship, there's the disinformation and dehumanization that the state or these

01:26:14.540 parastatal censorship, you know, proxy entities play.

01:26:18.420 And then there's the secrecy.

01:26:20.320 And so I think what we now know, and again, I've, I've said very clearly and praise the

01:26:25.960 Trump administration.

01:26:26.460 They've actually been helpful in my own case in Brazil, where I'm under criminal investigation

01:26:31.240 for the Twitter files, Brazil.

01:26:32.780 And so I'm very grateful to the Trump administration.

01:26:35.100 I hope that's clear.

01:26:35.920 But nonetheless, I think we can see that there are clearly some things that we're not, that

01:26:41.880 they really don't want us to know about.

01:26:43.880 And the Epstein one, the Jeffrey Epstein situation is easily, I think the most explosive and most

01:26:50.380 famous one where everybody knows there's these files and everybody knows that there are the

01:26:54.900 FBI and DOJ and everybody knows that there's no legal barriers to releasing them and that

01:27:00.740 there's all these excuses or everybody knows that it's not just Jeffrey Epstein's own personal

01:27:05.640 pornography collection and that the story has kept shifting.

01:27:09.560 But, you know, it looks like there may now be enough votes in the House pretty soon to

01:27:14.220 force a vote on it.

01:27:15.500 I think Speaker Johnson could still try to stop that.

01:27:17.980 But I think I'm heartened that the MAGA movement actually remained true to following that issue

01:27:26.000 through to the end.

01:27:26.940 But I think we've seen that there's, you know, frankly, a secret government that, I mean, we

01:27:32.560 can, people will say that sounds conspiratorial.

01:27:35.440 But I think if you realize what the Epstein files are and that it was covering up almost

01:27:41.880 certainly, very likely a sex blackmail operation.

01:27:45.700 And by the way, we didn't even have proof of the hidden cameras until a couple of weeks

01:27:49.520 ago when the New York Times published two photos of the hidden cameras, one of them pointing

01:27:54.480 right at a bed in Epstein's New York apartment.

01:27:57.740 And I think we know that, and, you know, we had, and Massey was in, you know, Congressman

01:28:01.340 Massey was in Congress last week and he said there was 20 names that he knows who they are

01:28:05.880 that are in the files.

01:28:07.060 He gave us one of them, CEO of Barclays Bank, and then he kind of listed who the other ones

01:28:11.560 were.

01:28:11.900 One of them was like a, you know, Hollywood producer, rock star, magician.

01:28:15.440 Um, so we know all these things.

01:28:18.460 It, I think it's a really important test.

01:28:20.660 I think it's really important that all of us that are sympathetic to things the Trump

01:28:24.620 administration has done, that we continue to not let the Epstein issue go.

01:28:29.460 And then I think the other issue, Tucker, that I know you care a lot about is the UAP

01:28:33.720 issue.

01:28:34.720 The president said after the drones over the drones over New Jersey, the unidentified, mostly

01:28:41.120 unidentified drones over New Jersey, that we were going to be able to find what that

01:28:44.660 is.

01:28:45.360 I have a list of all of the doc, of the key documents provided to me by John Greenwald

01:28:50.080 of the document, the UAP documents that exist that have many of which have been released

01:28:55.400 and have just been so heavily redacted.

01:28:57.280 They need to release these things.

01:28:59.320 They need to, um, stop hiding this.

01:29:02.100 And I'll just end by saying, uh, on this to culminate it all, look, the elephant in the

01:29:06.980 room here is the CIA.

01:29:08.360 You know, you've got this wonderful reform leader in Tulsi Gabbard, who is a unifying leader.

01:29:14.240 She has so much trust from people that were on the left.

01:29:16.940 She has so much trust from the MAGA community.

01:29:19.440 She's obviously a good person.

01:29:21.420 Like anybody that has ever met her or seen her.

01:29:24.800 That's correct.

01:29:25.260 And, and she, she, by law, Congress after 9-11 made this law that she is the boss of the 1.00

01:29:32.680 intelligence community.

01:29:33.540 That is what the law requires.

01:29:35.260 But we have this recalcitrant CIA where, I mean, come on guys.

01:29:41.040 Like we have not seen significant change to personnel.

01:29:44.500 Apparently only two of the people that worked on the bogus intelligence community assessment

01:29:49.240 about Russia interference in the 2016 elections, only two of those people are gone.

01:29:53.840 Um, it's the response from CIA to us.

01:29:56.580 Uh, there, I frankly found their, what they told us to be just, uh, uh, patronizing to

01:30:03.700 the point of offensive in insisting, you know, is basically trust us, bro.

01:30:08.480 Um, it's all good now.

01:30:10.580 The CIA is fine.

01:30:11.860 The CIA is not fine.

01:30:13.620 The CIA is hiding information that the American people paid for and have a right to know on

01:30:19.860 a lot of issues.

01:30:21.360 A lot.

01:30:22.280 UAP, Epstein, uh, Congressman Massey revealed that there is a CIA file on Epstein that needs

01:30:28.900 to come out and look, maybe CIA shouldn't exist.

01:30:32.880 I mean, Senator Moynihan before he died and, uh, uh, Kennedy's historian, why am I blanking

01:30:40.680 out his name?

01:30:41.020 Dr. Schlesinger.

01:30:41.440 Schlesinger.

01:30:42.180 Yep.

01:30:42.420 Schlesinger.

01:30:43.580 There's been various proposals to break up the CIA.

01:30:47.140 You know, frankly, it's a paramilitary organization ever since 9-11.

01:30:50.860 It was supposed to be an, Truman wanted an intel organization.

01:30:54.420 We need good intel.

01:30:55.840 By the way, congratulations on your brilliant documentary.

01:30:58.360 I saw the first part of it last night.

01:30:59.700 So now it appears, if I'm understanding correctly, that the CIA was probably behind, uh, the 9-11

01:31:06.380 attacks.

01:31:07.000 It was a botched, uh, CIA operation.

01:31:09.220 It sounds like I haven't finished your series, but here you have this.

01:31:12.620 So, I mean, you kind of go, so here you have an organization that's responsible for just

01:31:16.360 the worst, like regime change coups followed by dictators who tortured people, CIA that,

01:31:23.320 you know, infiltrated American student groups that used labor unions to, you know, engage

01:31:29.860 in regime change.

01:31:31.400 Um, you know, that spawn off people that were involved in the censorship industrial complex

01:31:36.240 and lawfare may have been, sounds like what you're saying, you know, that, uh, was behind,

01:31:41.280 or at least, uh, didn't stop or contributed to the 9-11 attacks.

01:31:45.620 And then they did the torture after 9-11, which not only doesn't work, uh, like creates

01:31:51.420 bad information and is a stain on the moral character of the United States.

01:31:57.540 At a certain point, you're like, what is this dog of an organization doing being just unreformed

01:32:03.460 and trampling on all of our basic, you know, freedoms?

01:32:06.420 So, I mean, I, you know, I kind of go, I think we just need to tell people that we don't really

01:32:12.000 govern ourselves as long as you have this, you know, uh, mess of an institution called

01:32:17.200 the CIA, where a bunch of analysts, uh, kind of appear to run the world.

01:32:21.780 As long as that organization remains unreformed and we don't really get true disclosure about

01:32:26.640 all the things that we know are going on, then I think we should be pretty unhappy and

01:32:31.260 pretty demanding of much more significant reforms than it appears, uh, the Trump

01:32:36.120 administration is going to pursue.

01:32:37.880 I'd settle for real oversight rather than, you know, Tom Cotton, who runs the Senate

01:32:42.740 Intelligence Committee, is basically just an apologist for the CIA.

01:32:46.500 There's no oversight at all.

01:32:47.800 He carries water for the agency in ways that hurt this country.

01:32:52.660 And it's, I'm not exactly sure why, like, what is that?

01:32:55.800 And I don't know the answer.

01:32:57.380 Um, people can speculate all they want.

01:32:59.200 I do want to just go back and thank you for what you said.

01:33:02.300 It's all true.

01:33:03.680 It's true.

01:33:04.560 Okay.

01:33:04.800 Um, good.

01:33:05.680 I haven't seen the end of it, but I saw the first part.

01:33:07.520 It's amazing, by the way.

01:33:08.580 No, no, I'm not talking about our documentary series.

01:33:11.620 I was just saying your analysis of CIA.

01:33:14.220 I mean, how many people do you think in the White House right now know what the actual

01:33:18.240 CIA budget is?

01:33:20.320 You know, I'd be surprised if you could find someone.

01:33:21.920 I don't, I've never met anyone who can actually, who can even, they can't tell you

01:33:25.720 because it's classified.

01:33:26.460 But, but, and I assume supposedly the House and Senate Intel committee chairman know what

01:33:32.640 the full budget is, but I would be shocked if they actually did.

01:33:36.480 I mean, it's its own country.

01:33:37.480 It's autonomous.

01:33:38.120 It doesn't have, um, oversight.

01:33:40.820 It doesn't have committee control structures.

01:33:42.860 It just kind of does what it wants.

01:33:44.480 It lies about what it does.

01:33:45.660 There's no way to know for a fact.

01:33:47.520 I mean, you, it's, it's a, it's a separate government within our borders, um, just like

01:33:53.720 they had in Portland, Oregon at the, you know, the height of, uh, George Floyd, but I just

01:33:58.860 want to ask you about something, um, that you said about the, the drone sighting or the

01:34:03.480 lights in the sky over New Jersey last year.

01:34:07.180 And, you know, so many sightings that it's really no dispute that it happened.

01:34:10.820 The question is, what is it?

01:34:12.140 And the president said that he would tell us we've never heard.

01:34:16.360 What was that?

01:34:17.440 Do you think?

01:34:19.860 I don't know.

01:34:20.580 And, you know, they're having also very similar drone sightings now, um, over in Denmark that

01:34:25.460 actually shut down both Danish airports on Sunday.

01:34:29.920 I mean, it's, uh, uh, yeah.

01:34:33.360 I mean, and why can't we know about it?

01:34:35.120 You know, and, uh, but what's your sense?

01:34:36.980 I know that you, you've done a lot on this.

01:34:39.120 I, uh, I've talked to you off, you know, off camera, just entry, cause I, you're one of

01:34:43.860 the few people whose judgment on this, I trust there's so much deception on this question.

01:34:48.680 I think parts of it, what's the term they use?

01:34:51.280 It's an op.

01:34:52.400 Um, I think part of it is part of the explanation is, but at its core are physical phenomena

01:34:58.120 that have been recorded in such volume at such scale that like something real is happening.

01:35:03.680 And I, and I know you don't really have the final answer on that, but what is your sense?

01:35:09.120 Um, yeah, I mean, I think, look, first of all, the government is engaged in extensive

01:35:14.220 disinformation on this topic and that's not, uh, that's not, that's just all confirmed.

01:35:19.300 Like it's been well-documented what they've done.

01:35:22.500 I mean, there's a, you know, there's a, there's an alien crash retrieval manual that, uh, is,

01:35:29.780 you know, that is officially according to the official story, a total fake, a total fabrication.

01:35:33.900 But I mean, when you look at it, it is extraordinary in its quality of like, if it is a fake, I mean,

01:35:41.020 complete with like the names of the people who checked it out and those people having

01:35:44.480 been checked out, who, who would do that?

01:35:47.580 Like, why would you do that?

01:35:48.520 Well, one story is that it was used as passage material to identify counterintelligence

01:35:53.400 spies in the U S intelligence community.

01:35:56.140 But nonetheless, there has been so much government misinformation.

01:36:00.760 Um, there's also been, you know, efforts to, there's also secret, you know, uh, technology

01:36:06.220 projects.

01:36:06.820 I mean, one of the guys that testified at the UAP hearing last week just said that, uh, that

01:36:12.200 he has seen successful reverse engineering of technologies.

01:36:15.580 Um, you know, there's a whole kind of Pentagon technological side of this that many other

01:36:23.000 people have done so much better work on and reporting on than me, Jesse Michaels being

01:36:27.440 one of the leaders of kind of unearthing it.

01:36:30.500 I will say, I don't think any of it could all be reduced to, uh, hard military hardware,

01:36:36.060 either ours or somebody else's.

01:36:37.540 I'm very confident that there's just way too many cases that don't fit that.

01:36:41.580 Um, I also, uh, think that Jacques Vallée has done really some of the most important

01:36:47.500 scholarship on this.

01:36:48.840 I find myself, and he just gave a presentation on it.

01:36:51.720 He's like, he's the French character played by Francois Truffaut in Close Encounters of

01:36:56.280 the Third Kind by Steven Spielberg, uh, a French researcher who's just sort of a international

01:37:01.920 treasure of UFO, you know, cases.

01:37:05.580 And, you know, he's actually gone a very similar direction that you've gone.

01:37:08.740 Um, and I find myself going there a little bit too, which is that there is a spiritual

01:37:13.160 element to this that I don't think is just purely attributable to technology because the

01:37:19.580 issue is such a gestalt, uh, issue because, you know, if you look at like in a classic

01:37:25.440 gestalt, is it an old woman? 0.99

01:37:26.640 Is it a young woman?

01:37:27.280 Is this a spiritual issue sort of manifesting as sort of some high-tech hardware, or is it

01:37:35.200 some high-tech civilization manifesting, um, as something spiritual?

01:37:40.640 I find myself really gravitating towards these, uh, cases, which is also where a valet encouraged

01:37:47.120 a lot of new research.

01:37:48.980 Um, one of which is my favorite is this English woman in the countryside who had a UFO sighting

01:37:53.900 in the fifties.

01:37:54.700 And I would, um, dare anyone to watch that.

01:37:58.240 And she describes seeing, you know, she's like a very working class, uh, English woman.

01:38:02.720 It's a beautiful interview with her, uh, done, it's not by, it's like BBC or somebody.

01:38:07.420 And they just said, describe what you saw.

01:38:08.900 You know, she said, she hears this noise.

01:38:10.440 Her two boys are in the front yard.

01:38:12.080 She sees a huge UFO over her house.

01:38:14.520 He asked her to describe it.

01:38:15.680 And she said, what can I say?

01:38:16.980 It was like a Mexican hat, you know, like a typical, you know, uh, flying saucer with 0.99

01:38:22.220 a dome.

01:38:23.000 Her kids were there seeing it.

01:38:25.140 She's where she saw it.

01:38:26.420 She says there was two people inside and they were beautiful people with long blonde hair

01:38:31.500 and sort of slightly bigger foreheads and sort of looking at her.

01:38:36.200 And, um, it ends so interesting.

01:38:38.440 She says, you know, we, we told people about this and then we were ridiculed.

01:38:41.900 And then she said, but it's okay because I know it happened.

01:38:44.420 It's true.

01:38:45.020 And I, I think I dare people to watch that and come away thinking that she was lying.

01:38:50.140 I don't think she was lying.

01:38:52.020 Yes.

01:38:52.540 I also, um, as you know, I have interviewed a fair number of psychotic people living tragically

01:38:57.900 on the street, um, and people in psychotic states, that's not the kind of story they tell.

01:39:04.020 In fact, I have, I even have psych, I have, I have homeless people who I've been interviewing

01:39:07.700 that are meth induced psychotic, you know, and meth induced psychosis talking about aliens.

01:39:11.500 And it's just a lot of word salad and, and garbled.

01:39:14.860 It's like talking to somebody trying to explain a dream they had.

01:39:17.500 It doesn't make sense.

01:39:18.620 Yes.

01:39:18.940 So I don't think she lied.

01:39:21.300 I don't think she's capable.

01:39:22.380 I think that most actors are bad actors.

01:39:24.140 I don't think she's capable of having invented that and then persuading her children to lie 0.99

01:39:28.960 with her.

01:39:29.400 I think that that she had that experience.

01:39:31.720 I don't think she's psychotic.

01:39:33.640 Um, I don't really know if anybody knows if that, if, if that, if those beings come from

01:39:40.680 a different planet or they're interdimensional or they're spiritual, or if they have some

01:39:45.060 other form and they're just manifesting and, and holograming like that, I don't know.

01:39:49.220 Um, but I think that, um, the conversation, you know, thanks to, again, people like you

01:39:56.620 and, and Joe and others has just widened so that we can see just what a, what a big lie

01:40:02.600 it's been that science has really properly accounted for reality.

01:40:07.400 Um, you know, this, you know, science magazine did a survey of scientists, including natural

01:40:13.620 scientists.

01:40:14.060 And I think it was somewhere around 60 to 80% of natural scientists.

01:40:18.060 I'm talking physics and biology and chemistry were not able to replicate famous studies

01:40:24.740 in their field.

01:40:25.980 They admitted this in a survey and then they would ask them, do you still trust your field

01:40:29.200 of science?

01:40:29.640 And they all said, yes, but they can't replicate basic scientific experiments.

01:40:33.900 They keep changing their mind on the creation stories at the big bang.

01:40:37.820 I think there's sufficient doubts about, you know, about human origins.

01:40:43.180 And so, but like that became, that was so taboo.

01:40:45.940 That was so, you couldn't talk about that in polite society.

01:40:49.140 But I do think now we are able to have those conversations.

01:40:52.380 And I do think it's really notable that at this political shift, there is, I think, a

01:40:57.120 spiritual, a spiritual movement.

01:40:59.360 I mean, I'm obviously really into it.

01:41:01.300 Other people in my life are not as excited about it.

01:41:06.240 But for me, I think these experiences, you know, the evidence, you know, the spiritual

01:41:14.700 side of it, the government cover up, you know, are just huge areas that we should be doing

01:41:20.080 so much more research and investigations and journalism on.

01:41:23.180 And I get a little frustrated because I think sometimes, I think the conversation right

01:41:29.300 now in the podcast world and in the conversation is just a lot of people are repeating and speculating

01:41:35.020 about stories that we've kind of heard before or sort of know about.

01:41:39.060 But we haven't put nearly enough pressure on the government to release or unredact the

01:41:44.700 documents that we know exist to come clean about what they appear to know and are unwilling

01:41:50.100 to tell there should be a real movement around this.

01:41:53.020 And there should be consequences for members of Congress because that's information that

01:41:58.440 that belongs to all of us.

01:42:00.480 And if there's some evidence of non-human intelligence or a lot of evidence, my understanding, I'm very

01:42:07.260 confident that there are thousands of high quality videos, photos, sensor data, radar data,

01:42:14.020 a lot, a lot that the military is keeping from us and the CIA is keeping from us.

01:42:20.680 And we should be really upset about that.

01:42:22.680 And I think that for me, I'm I think that we can there's just been a lot of conversations

01:42:28.260 where people go around and around about with the data that we know.

01:42:31.680 But what we're missing is the fact that the government, the government is sitting on so

01:42:35.420 much more of it.

01:42:36.240 And I find myself wanting to do more to force it out and I'm getting frustrated, but I'm

01:42:42.800 a little bit, you know, I think, as you've seen, I'm on the one hand, very grateful to

01:42:46.840 this administration and the strong things it's done, you know, on free speech and the

01:42:51.100 disclosure it's done, certainly disclosing so much more than the last administration.

01:42:55.040 But we still need a lot more.

01:42:56.720 There's still so much that needs to be released on Epstein, on COVID origins, the whole COVID

01:43:03.240 pandemic response, on the weaponization of FBI, the continuing rot.

01:43:07.940 I mean, we were someone at the CIA told us pathological rot at the CIA.

01:43:13.100 And we need we need to know what's going on with the UAPs.

01:43:16.020 It's just the speculate like you were saying before, it would be irresponsible not to engage

01:43:22.060 in conspiracy theorizing and speculation, given how little information they give to us.

01:43:26.680 And if they were really so concerned about conspiracy theories and speculation and misinformation,

01:43:31.320 then they should be releasing those documents.

01:43:33.980 Well, of course, they foment conspiracy theories and race hatred because it's a distraction from 0.73

01:43:40.280 what they're doing.

01:43:40.820 I mean, when I was younger, living in Washington, and I began to understand that the government

01:43:44.840 was systematically lying across agencies about a couple of things, probably a lot of things,

01:43:49.340 but UAPs were definitely one of them.

01:43:51.680 That became obvious a while ago.

01:43:53.540 And I remember asking, you know, like, what is this?

01:43:57.520 And never getting a straight answer, except people would say, look, it's not it's destabilizing.

01:44:03.320 It would be destabilizing if the public knew and like, who wants an unstable country?

01:44:08.360 You know, there's some things that people just aren't ready for whatever the euphemism they

01:44:11.080 use.

01:44:11.240 But that was the explanation.

01:44:11.880 As I got older, I began to, you know, talk to other people and have other thoughts.

01:44:17.020 And one of them was totally possible that the government has some really does have something

01:44:21.000 to hide is participating in things that people would not approve of or be shocked to learn.

01:44:25.360 And all of that gets to a question that's never occurred to me till right now.

01:44:29.100 But like, who named America's military headquarters after a pentagram?

01:44:35.740 Like, who thought that was a good idea?

01:44:38.060 And I know you've done a lot of research on that period, the war period.

01:44:41.240 Like, what was that?

01:44:44.260 Well, yeah, I mean, this is, you know, I haven't seen it yet.

01:44:46.940 So I can't evaluate it yet.

01:44:48.180 And I don't know a lot about it.

01:44:49.360 But yeah, I mean, there's some, there's a real darkness to the whole area.

01:44:54.180 Yeah, let's call it, let's call the building that controls nuclear weapons, the Pentagon.

01:44:59.440 Huh?

01:44:59.960 I mean, it's sort of like right in your face, right?

01:45:02.120 Or no?

01:45:04.080 Yeah, I mean, I just haven't looked that much on it.

01:45:06.740 I do know that like, a lot of the UFO stuff is very tied in with the occult.

01:45:11.620 Yeah.

01:45:11.700 And apparently, you know, Jesse Michaels again did a, apparently did a new documentary on occult.

01:45:20.440 I mean, I'm not vouching if I don't know about it, but I like Jesse, occult behaviors within NASA.

01:45:26.020 Uh, so, uh, very concerning.

01:45:29.260 I don't know what it means.

01:45:30.700 Um, you know, I, I, I'm, I'm shocked by how little curiosity there is at a society wide level.

01:45:38.240 I think that, you know, the intellectual life of this country, uh, by which I mean, not just the universities, but also the newspapers and the big media companies, that is how censorship was done over the last 80 years.

01:45:51.180 The internet is almost a return to a pre radio pre broadcast period, um, when people were really free to just print whatever they wanted, uh, the internet is not there, but it's, it's a lot closer to it.

01:46:03.200 We finally get to kind of learn that actually there's all these anomalies around human evolution, around human history, around, you know, archeological sites where things don't seem to add up.

01:46:17.580 Right.

01:46:17.860 And you start to get, um, people that were called, you know, pseudo archeologists starting to kind of win some arguments publicly.

01:46:26.660 I mean, there's one happening right now around, uh, Gobekli Tepe with this guy, Jimmy Corsetti, where he's just shown that the people that are supposed to be excavating the site are destroying it, planting trees whose roots will destroy these ancient sites.

01:46:41.920 And also building these really grotesque roofing structures in ways that destroy the site.

01:46:47.480 They're very weird and suspicious.

01:46:49.780 Um, there's just a lot of, you know, we know that a lot of the Tesla information was missing, uh, that, you know, should have shown some very interesting things.

01:46:58.820 And then, yeah, I mean, I think that the relationship with nuclear is one of the most interesting parts of this because these UAPs, they show up around nuclear sites.

01:47:09.240 I used to work on nuclear a lot and there would be nuclear, there would be these drones, um, these unidentified, uh, uh, they've seemed like objects, but unidentified phenomenon around nuclear power sites.

01:47:23.320 Uh, the nuclear, the people working at them, um, were often very concerned around public perception of danger.

01:47:29.100 And so they often didn't talk about them, but they, they'd certainly been over Diablo Canyon nuclear plant in California.

01:47:36.440 Um, but when the drones happened in New Jersey, well, we caught them in an open lie.

01:47:40.880 I mean, they just said, uh, John Kirby at one point said something like they had evaluated like 3000 cases of drone sightings in like 48 hours, which is like absurd.

01:47:49.460 There's no possibility they did it.

01:47:51.320 And then we started looking, a set of people started looking and you discover that in fact, there's been these drone swarms around U S military bases.

01:48:00.680 I mean, not a couple either.

01:48:02.160 I mean, I think it was somewhere around two or three dozen military bases.

01:48:05.900 And there's a lot of evidence that those, those drones, um, are circling around those moments when there's nuclear weapons, uh, in the area.

01:48:15.040 So, um, you know, if it's, I'm skeptical that it's Chinese and Russian because the drones are engaged in behaviors that I think are very difficult, uh, for anybody to do.

01:48:26.000 But I mean, if these objects are behaving in ways that, you know, do appear to be using a different kind of propulsion or anti-gravity, I mean, I'm very skeptical that that that's ours in the sense that it takes a lot.

01:48:38.860 It took a huge effort to create the Manhattan project and to create nuclear weapons.

01:48:42.920 It was a massive, massive endeavor.

01:48:44.720 And so to somehow easily get, or to be able to easily hide reverse engineering, I don't know how you do that.

01:48:52.080 Um, I'm really skeptical that we have it, but it's absurd that we have to just sit around and speculate about it.

01:48:58.580 Like, like, like we need, there's basically no transparency instead we have a DOD organization called Arrow, which as far as I can tell is part of a deception operation consistent with the CIA's recommendations through the Robertson panel in the 1950s.

01:49:15.740 That the main thing the US government should do is supposedly debunk the UFOs and to D and to ridicule the people that see them and, and research them.

01:49:26.900 And worse, um, there's a lot of threats made to people in this field.

01:49:31.400 I personally find it one of the scariest issues, um, trans and UAPs are the two, uh, paradoxically the, the scariest issues. 1.00

01:49:42.400 Um, and because it just seems like a lot of people really don't want us to know what's going on with it.

01:49:48.960 And, uh, president Trump's sound made noises like he was going to reveal something and Tulsi Gabbard just made some noises that she wanted to get to the bottom of it.

01:49:57.720 But otherwise, Tucker, they're just, they just seem like they really, they, it seems like they want to, they want to Jeffrey Epstein, the UAP files.

01:50:07.620 Yeah.

01:50:07.980 I don't think there's any, and if you're wondering if there's a spiritual component to the whole thing, if it's, if it's, if it's about technology and, you know, other, you know, I don't know, Martians.

01:50:17.120 Right.

01:50:17.820 Uh, probably not going to be, uh, this kind of response to it.

01:50:23.180 I mean, this just glows with intensity.

01:50:27.140 Again, it's the Pentagon.

01:50:29.460 So yeah, there's a spiritual component to it, I would say.

01:50:32.300 I've been, I've been scared off too.

01:50:33.640 It's like, I don't even want to deal with it, but I'm, I'm grateful for you.

01:50:36.280 Mike Schellenberger, really, I, I'm so grateful you went into journalism.

01:50:40.940 There are a few people, uh, with, you know, you could be doing a lot of other things.

01:50:44.260 There are not that many super smart people in journalism with, you know, true principles, and you're definitely one of the very few.

01:50:51.180 And so I'm always grateful to talk to you, and I'm grateful you're doing what you're doing.

01:50:54.600 So thanks, Tucker.

01:50:55.520 Thank you, and back at you, and congratulations on, uh, coming back to your famous monologues.

01:51:01.840 And I was really delighted that you did it on free speech, and I hope you keep doing a weekly monologue.

01:51:07.160 I think it's, uh.

01:51:08.340 Getting all spun up.

01:51:09.300 Yeah, I enjoy it.

01:51:10.020 Thank you.

01:51:12.300 Great.

01:51:12.500 I hope we can have dinner soon.

01:51:13.240 Great to see you.

01:51:14.640 The great Mike Schellenberger.

01:51:16.660 We'll be back next week.

01:51:18.760 Good night.

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The Tucker Carlson Show - September 25, 2025

Tucker Carlson LIVE： The End of Free Speech

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