Tucker Confronts Ted Cruz on His Support for Regime Change in Iran
Episode Stats
Length
2 hours and 3 minutes
Words per Minute
198.37791
Hate Speech Sentences
135
Summary
Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Texas) joins Sen. Marco Rubio (R) to discuss Iran and the need for regime change in Iran, and why he thinks it s a good idea. They also discuss how to deal with the ongoing humanitarian crisis in Venezuela.
Transcript
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Senator, thank you very much for spending the time to have this conversation.
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So you've come out for regime change in Iran as distinct just from taking out the nuclear sites.
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Look, that ultimately has to be a popular uprising for the people.
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Is America better off with a country that has a leader who hates us and wants to kill us,
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or to have a country with a leader who likes us and wants to be friends with us?
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Look, I believe you look across the world when you have countries that have dictators that are viciously anti-America.
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Would we be better off with Maduro out of power?
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I want our enemies out of power and I want our friends in power.
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We've been trying to kill Maduro for quite some time.
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I don't know that we've been trying to kill Maduro.
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I'm just saying there's a lot of pressure coming from various parts of the U.S. government on that government,
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Same, the country of very ancestors, Cuba, you know, 1959, we've been working on that, hasn't it?
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It absolutely is hard, and look, I think you're reasonable to ask, how do we produce that?
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And I think there's a distinction between what your objective is and the means to get it.
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There are all sorts of things I would say we would be better off.
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But it's good to say, all right, what are our objectives?
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And so with the Ayatollah in Iran saying you're for regime change, I don't view it as complicated.
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I mean, the guy literally leads mobs chanting death to America.
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But the reason I think it's important to get a little more detailed about how that might happen
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is because there's military action in progress, which we're supporting.
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And the president has said clearly, including last night, that he is focused on eliminating
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the capacity of the Iranian government to produce nuclear weapons.
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You are saying we need to use military force to affect regime change.
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I don't think we need to use military force to do regime change.
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I would say we agree on about 80% of the things on Earth.
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And there are a lot of things, and we can get into the nitty gritty of foreign policy as
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There are a lot of things on which you and I agree, not just a little bit, but violently.
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I was rooting for you in your last campaign, for sure.
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You've been one of the clearest and best voices in the whole country on securing the
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border and on the absolute crisis we're facing.
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In COVID, in fact, you may recall in the middle of the COVID lockdown, I was out walking my
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dog when the whole world was shut down and we were living in lunatic times.
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And I called you and said, Tucker, your nightly monologues are the single best thing on television.
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Like, I watched them like an injection of crack.
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Okay, I'm mixing my metaphor because you don't inject crack.
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No, I mean, it was, you were standing up and speaking like, what the hell are we doing
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in a way that we desperately, desperately needed?
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And so whether it's securing the border, whether it's the insanity of COVID lockdowns and the
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vaccine mandates, whether it is the Second Amendment or the First Amendment, you and I
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agree on a ton of stuff. The 20% where we disagree, I do think is meaningful. And it's
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mostly in the foreign policy space. And what I would say, if you'll allow me to get a little
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theoretical and then I'm happy to get specific.
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Yeah. For a long time, people have perceived two different poles of Republican foreign policy.
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There have been interventionists and those have been people like John McCain and Lindsey
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Graham, George W. Bush. And there have been isolationists. And then the most prominent of
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those have been Ron Paul and Rand Paul and there are others. And people perceive those are the two
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choices. You've got to be one or the other. I've always thought both were wrong. I don't agree
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with either one. The way I view my own foreign policy...
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I'm with you, by the way, for whatever it's worth. I agree with you.
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I don't know who set up that binary, but there are lots of choices, actually.
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I mean, people sort of naturally fall into, I think they want to classify people and they're
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like, okay, you're one or the other and you've got to be all or nothing. And the interventionists,
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it seems, have never seen a country they didn't want to invade. And that doesn't make any sense
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to me. And the isolationists, I think, don't take the threats to America seriously. And I think
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that's naive and it doesn't work. And so my view, I consider myself a third point on the triangle.
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And what I describe that as is that I am a non-interventionist hawk, which sounds a little
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weird, but what do I mean by that? I mean the central touchpoint for U.S. foreign policy and for any
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question of military intervention should be the vital national security interest of the United
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States. How does this make America safer? How does this protect Americans? If it does,
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we should be strong. And actually another way of conceiving what I'm saying, I'm speaking
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theoretically, but Reagan referred to it as peace through strength. And actually, I think Donald
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Trump's foreign policy is very much what I'm describing, a non-interventionist hawk, where
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he understands, and I think this is historically true, the best way to avoid war is being strong.
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That weakness and isolationism, I think, encourages war. So going back to regime change, where you
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started in Iran. Just to make, I don't think I disagree with anything you've said. So we may not be
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that far apart, really, because you said that the single criterion for making decisions about
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America's foreign policy is America's national interest. Yes. That's it. Yeah. Which is also
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So I think we are. And from what you've said publicly, I think on Iran in particular,
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you and I disagree. And all right, let me contrast it. When Obama was president,
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when Obama was president, you remember he talked about wanting to have military action against Syria.
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And at the time, I tried to keep an open mind to it. I said, okay, let me listen to the commander
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in chief. Describe to me how this is in America's interest and what your plan is. And Bashar Assad
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was a bad guy. He was killing his own citizens and he had chemical weapons that were very dangerous.
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I could conceive of a commander in chief laying out a plan for, okay, we're going to go in and say,
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grab the chemical weapons and leave. Like I could see that if there was a real threat to America and
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there was a plan to prevent that, I could see supporting that. So I wanted to hear what he had
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to say. And I listened both in classified briefings and public questioning. And number one,
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their public defense of it was incoherent. So John Kerry said, we're going to engage in an
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unbelievably small strike. I think that's a quote. I'm like, okay. And to do what? At the time,
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there were nine major rebel Islamic groups in Syria. I'm like, okay, I agree. Bashar Assad's a
00:10:27.340
bad guy. You topple him. And one of the nine other groups takes over. Seven of them were affiliated
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with radical Islamic terrorism. You had Al-Qaeda and Al-Nusra. I'm like, wait, how is it better
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to have lunatics who hate us in charge? Assad's a bad guy, but I don't want worse guys in charge.
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Obama administration couldn't give an answer to that. And ultimately, when you press them,
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John Kerry in particular, I pressed and he would say, well, we need to defend international norms.
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What the hell's an international norm? I don't know what it is, but I'm not interested in putting
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U.S. servicemen and women in harm's way to defend one. Amen. So I opposed the Syria attack and opposed
00:11:06.780
it vocally. And it was interesting. Rand and I agreed. Rand's a friend of mine. But we agreed with
00:11:12.480
that position for different reasons. What I was asking is, is I think the question we should ask,
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how does this make America safer? The Obama administration couldn't give me an answer,
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so I opposed it. I think Iran is very different. Let me ask what you think of how Syria wound up,
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because Bashar Assad now lives in Moscow. Yeah. He was taken out by our allies. And he's been replaced
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by a radical Islamist who was affiliated with ISIS. So is that a win or no? Unclear. Look, Syria is a
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mess. So I've consistently opposed. But we had a secular leader in a religious and ethnically
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diverse country. Now we have a religious extremist, Islamic religious extremist, who's overseen the
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purge of Christians and Alawites. Is that better? That doesn't seem like a win. Well, look, one of the
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things you said is you said he was taken out by our allies. I don't think that's right. Israel didn't take
00:12:02.420
Assad out. What happened, and I'll tell you. What about Turkey? Turkey didn't take him out. So it was
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interesting. I had a long time. How did Assad get kicked out? Yeah. When Netanyahu was in D.C. a couple
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of months ago, he and I sat down for a couple of hours. He's a good friend of mine. And we talked
00:12:21.820
actually about Syria. He made an interesting point that I've not heard anywhere else, in that he said
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he believes what toppled Assad was when Israel took out Nasrallah. Nasrallah was the head of Hezbollah,
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and they took him out. And he made an interesting point. He said, it's fascinating how a charismatic
00:12:40.940
leader, and Bibi said, look, Nasrallah was a very effective terrorist leader. And when they took him
00:12:47.420
out, that power base was supporting Assad. And that ultimately, in Bibi's analysis, removed the support
00:12:54.780
from Assad and toppled him. But they weren't trying to take out Assad. My view now, I don't know.
00:13:01.420
So you don't think that, and I don't, it is very confusing, and I don't know that anyone really
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knows all the details, but you don't think that Israel or Turkey or NATO ally Turkey played any
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role in toppling Assad? I don't know. I don't know that they did. Look, my understanding of that,
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they clearly took out Nasrallah and Hezbollah. They've decimated Hezbollah, but Hezbollah is waging war on
00:13:21.760
them. So decimating Hezbollah was very good for Israel and very good for America, too. I mean,
00:13:27.200
Hezbollah hated us. I would put Assad in the category of an unintended consequence, and whether
00:13:36.480
it's good or bad, I don't know. I think time will tell. For the United States. Yeah, for the United
00:13:42.640
States. I think time will tell the new leadership there. You're right to be concerned. Let me step back
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and let's talk regime change generally. I mentioned Syria. I also opposed the Iraq war. I think the
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Iraq war was a serious mistake. And we have a pattern, and going back to this binary of the
00:14:03.360
interventionists and the isolationists, the interventionists advocate over and over again.
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There's a bad guy. There's a dictator who's doing bad things to his people, and they say,
00:14:13.560
let's go topple them. And you have dictators in the Middle East who are killing radical Islamic
00:14:17.940
terrorists. We come in and topple them. The radical Islamic terrorists take over, and they start
00:14:22.640
killing Americans. And mind you, how the heck does that help us? Like, Saddam Hussein was a horrible
00:14:29.060
human being. He murdered and tortured people. Unequivocally bad guy. But it got much worse after
00:14:35.460
we toppled him. And you ended up having ISIS rise up. I mean, that was the cause of ISIS was toppling
00:14:41.780
Saddam Hussein. Same thing in Libya. You had Qaddafi, another horrible guy, that under Obama,
00:14:48.420
we toppled him. And you ended up having radical Islamic warlords taking over. And so it's the
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question I asked in Syria. Okay, well, what's the plan? And how is this good or bad for the United
00:15:02.160
States? And so I don't think with Iran, I view Iran as very different from Iraq.
00:15:07.600
But up to that point, you say we disagree. I don't hear really anything. I'm not quite sure
00:15:12.120
what happened in Syria, but I don't know. So, right. But other than that, I don't hear anything
00:15:16.080
I disagree with at all. Yeah. Sounds like we're in a complete agreement. I wonder, though,
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is there a successful regime change that the United States supported that you're aware of
00:15:24.940
in the last hundred years? Sure. Defeating the Soviet Union and the Soviet Union collapsing,
00:15:31.960
winning the Cold War, that that was the most consequential step for U.S. national security
00:15:39.180
interests of our lifetimes. Okay. So you would classify that as a regime change that we affected?
00:15:45.440
Absolutely. Okay. And look, you and I are in my office. We're sitting next to a painting of Reagan
00:15:53.260
in front of the Brandenburg Gate. And up top are the words, tear down this wall in German,
00:16:01.340
in the style of the graffiti. Right. And I think those are the most important words any leader has
00:16:06.480
said in modern times. And if you look at how Reagan waged the Cold War, and Reagan is very much my model
00:16:14.180
for how to, I actually think how Reagan took on the Soviet Union is exactly how we should take on China.
00:16:20.000
Now, starting from the point, look, Reagan was not an interventionist. In eight years,
00:16:25.560
the biggest country Reagan ever invaded was Grenada. He was very reluctant to use U.S. military
00:16:31.320
force. He didn't respond after the 83 barracks bombings. You're right. He made the judgment that
00:16:36.300
the risk exceeded the benefits. And that's a very rational decision to make. And it's reflected Trump
00:16:43.120
has made those same decisions where he is willing to use military force, but he very much
00:16:49.760
asks, OK, is this good or bad for America? Does this endanger U.S. servicemen and women or not?
00:16:57.760
And one of the points about the Cold War, look, nobody in their right mind wanted a shooting war
00:17:03.460
between America and the Soviet Union. The two biggest nuclear powers on Earth
00:17:06.440
firing bullets at each other is really unhealthy for human beings. Same thing is true with China.
00:17:13.220
Nobody with any sense says, hey, let's go to war with China. That's really dumb.
00:17:17.420
And a whole lot of people could die. But the Cold War showed we've got lots of tools
00:17:23.280
short of sending the Marines to fight against a regime. And one of the most important tools is the
00:17:30.460
bully pulpit. And so when I say I support regime change, I actually think just simply laying out
00:17:37.080
what the Ayatollah does. And so I spend a lot of time. I speak to Iranian dissident groups. I speak out
00:17:43.100
against human rights abuses. I think shining a light on the depravity of leaders is a really
00:17:49.740
powerful tool that America has. Should it should we limit our activity to that?
00:17:56.640
It it depends. Again, the U.S. government pays opposition groups, militarized opposition groups
00:18:04.680
in Iran to overthrow the government. We've done a lot of different places, as you know. I'm not I'm not
00:18:09.640
saying it's bad, but that's very different from what you're describing. You're saying we're making
00:18:13.020
a moral case, as we did for seven years with the Soviets. Our system works. Yours doesn't.
00:18:18.100
And I think we made a credible case for that. And we beat them over 70 years economically.
00:18:25.320
Right. I think everyone would agree that was the main part of it. We didn't beat them in Vietnam
00:18:30.560
The main part of it, but it was tied to a military buildup. So I think it was two things.
00:18:34.360
It was one, the clarity. So Reagan came in and he described the Soviet Union as an evil empire.
00:18:41.540
And all of the intelligentsia in D.C., all the Democrats, all the media, they're like,
00:18:47.500
what a horrible thing to say. You can't say that. Reagan went to the United Kingdom and he said,
00:18:52.860
Marxism, Leninism will end up on the ash heap of history. People were horrified.
00:18:57.340
They asked him, all right, what's what's your strategy in the Cold War? He said, very simple. We win,
00:19:01.680
they lose. And that was all viewed as as sort of a philistine simplicity. And I think it was
00:19:09.780
exactly right. And laying that out, speaking. Do you know the backstory behind the Berlin Wall
00:19:17.580
You probably know Peter Robinson, who was a speech writer.
00:19:20.920
So three times the State Department deleted those words from that speech. And three times
00:19:26.920
Reagan wrote it back. And the State Department argued, they said, Mr. President, you can't say this.
00:19:31.680
This is too bellicose. This is too provocative. And my favorite, they said, this is too unrealistic.
00:19:38.040
The Berlin Wall will stand to the end of time. And Reagan said, look, this is the whole point of
00:19:43.780
the speech. And less than three years after Reagan gave that speech, the Berlin Wall was torn to the
00:19:49.840
ground. And it wasn't knocked down by American army tanks. We didn't shoot missiles at it. It was
00:19:55.720
shining truth and light that tore it down. It was also rebuilding the American military. It was
00:20:04.240
what was then pejoratively called Star Wars, where the Soviet Union, their economy couldn't match our
00:20:09.680
military buildup, and it bankrupted them. That's an example of peace through strength.
00:20:14.580
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Oh, sure. Oh, but I mean, just the basic metrics, debt, suicide rate, life expectancy. It was,
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I wonder why after that victory, America didn't thrive in the way that we thought that it would,
00:24:08.220
that I thought that it would. My family was involved in that. I mean, we were very focused
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on it in my house. Like, we won. And I wonder two things. Why didn't the United States kind of
00:24:16.920
declare victory and make some sort of arrangement with Russia that allowed, like, mutual prosperity
00:24:23.060
rather than continuing a cold war? And second, I wonder why the United States didn't get a lot
00:24:28.140
better. Like, why don't we have better infrastructure? Why don't we have fewer
00:24:30.560
homeless? Why do we have all these drugs? Like, if we won, why does our country look like this?
00:24:34.200
I walked across from Union Station this morning, as you do, I'm sure, every day. And all those people
00:24:38.480
lying in the street and sleeping outside. It's like, what is that?
00:24:41.620
Look, there's no doubt there are really dangerous forces in our society. Some of it is politics and some of
00:24:48.960
it is culture. And one of the mistakes people make in politics is thinking everything is politics. So
00:24:54.140
the political answer, which I happen to believe, is we went much further down the road of liberalism.
00:24:59.440
You look at Bill Clinton, who inherited the peace dividend of the Cold War being over and
00:25:04.080
moved us more to the left, and then Obama accelerated it a lot. And so there are lots of
00:25:09.440
bad economic policies. But I also think they're cultural things.
00:25:13.360
I agree with all of that. I know what you're going to say, and I agree 100%. I bet there's
00:25:20.280
not one word that I would disagree with. All I'm saying is, I think it's important to step
00:25:24.700
back and ask. But I actually think Russia has very little to do with it.
00:25:27.500
Well, that's kind of the point that I'm trying to make, which is, like, we're all sort of
00:25:31.540
focused on beating our adversaries abroad. But what is victory worth if our own country
00:25:35.320
becomes what it is now? And maybe we're spending a little too much time focused abroad and not
00:25:40.700
enough time focused on the people sleeping outside Union Station.
00:25:43.940
So, look, I absolutely think we need to focus at home emphatically, and we need to focus on
00:25:49.580
prosperity. We need to focus on reducing the debt, reducing spending, empowering people,
00:25:54.660
low taxes, small businesses. American free enterprise, it's the most powerful force
00:25:59.360
for fighting poverty the world has ever seen. I'm a thousand percent there. I also recognize it is a
00:26:06.700
dangerous world. And part of the responsibility of leaders, part of President Trump's responsibility
00:26:12.400
is to keep America safe. Let's go back to where we started with Iran.
00:26:16.460
Can I ask, you've been in the district a long time in D.C., so have I. And the city's way more
00:26:21.160
dangerous, and Congress runs this. No, no, it's a complete crapple.
00:26:24.000
So, I'm saying, like, no Iranians ever going to kill me, but I could get carjacked here.
00:26:28.640
And I just don't understand how the Congress could run this city and focus on the dangers of Iran
00:26:33.360
when the city is, like, garbage. It's garbage. But Congress doesn't run the city. We could.
00:26:39.080
Congress does run the city. It's in the Constitution, I think. It's in the Constitution,
00:26:42.000
but they've given home rule, so it's a Democrat mayor. You can take it back. You can tell the
00:26:45.360
Congress. I'd vote for it, but it is a question of math. Okay, but I'm just saying, like, why,
00:26:51.200
how can people ignore, it's like, if my own kids are drug addicts, but I'm focused on my neighbor's
00:26:56.580
kids, it's like I'm neglecting my own kids. And there's a sense in which the Congress is neglecting
00:27:01.380
the country that elected them in favor of this relentless focus on other people's problems.
00:27:06.660
That's the way it feels as an American. Look, there are lots of problems in America that we
00:27:12.320
need to fix. Why is D.C. a pit? Because you have a mayor and a Democrat city council that won't let
00:27:18.600
police officers arrest bad guys. And in every city you see across the country, whether it's New York,
00:27:23.240
whether it's Chicago, whether it's L.A., whether it's San Francisco, if you have Democrats,
00:27:27.820
we see the L.A. riots where they won't let people be arrested. All right. Then why not work
00:27:32.540
in regime change here? Why not use the bully pulpit? I do. What do you think I do every day?
00:27:37.140
I've never seen a Republican senator stand up and say, I just walked to work this morning over people
00:27:41.580
dying of drug IDs. We're going to shut this place down unless they fix it. They're mad about Putin.
00:27:46.880
Like, what did Putin do to Washington? Nothing. Look, in terms of regime change, let's talk this week,
00:27:52.360
the riots in L.A. I've made very clear that the cause of those riots are Gavin Newsom and Karen
00:27:59.060
Bass. And when you elect communists who hate America, who stop law enforcement from arresting
00:28:03.660
criminals, you get what you get on the streets. Amen, I agree. My in-laws are Californians,
00:28:08.200
and they're wonderful people. Heidi grew up on the central coast of California. And I remember I was
00:28:12.500
texting with my mother-in-law, and I think I sent her a video of criminals going to a store and just
00:28:20.300
looting in California. And her response, she said something like, well, this is really terrible.
00:28:25.640
I wish we could. It's a shame we can't do anything about this. So, yes, you can. Go in and arrest them.
00:28:31.640
Throw their butts in jail. Put them in handcuffs. And it stops. Exactly. And so we know how to fix
00:28:37.660
these things. And D.C. is, I think D.C. voted, if I remember right, 92 percent Democrat.
00:28:43.680
Democrat policies don't work, and they destroy every community that they are in charge of.
00:28:51.440
Then why don't Republicans assert their constitutional authority over the city?
00:28:55.520
Don't they control the Congress? Yes, I'd be all for it. Who's against it?
00:29:00.680
Susan Collins is really vocally against it. So on questions of home rule. So, for example,
00:29:05.900
let's take an issue you and I care a lot about, the COVID lockdowns. I had a couple of years ago in
00:29:10.760
the middle of them. D.C. was proposing, the D.C. school district was proposing throwing out of
00:29:17.640
school any child that was not vaccinated. And at the time, if I remember correctly, it was something
00:29:23.540
like 40 percent of the African-American students in D.C. were not vaccinated. So we're talking about
00:29:28.440
literally throwing out 40 percent of the kids at public school. And so I had a vote on the Senate
00:29:32.700
floor to say, look, they can't throw kids out of school for this. And we ended up having a big
00:29:38.120
argument. And part of the argument was home rule where there were. And Susan was the most vocal
00:29:42.960
Republican. It's like, no, no, no, we have to let D.C. run. And I'm like, why? Constitution gives us
00:29:47.440
the power to do it. And it ended up, by the way, every single Democrat, all of them voted in favor
00:29:53.800
of the D.C. public schools being able to throw out 40 percent of the black kids from school.
00:29:59.000
And I said, look, you throw a kid out of school. You got a 14, 15 year old boy. You throw him out of
00:30:03.080
school. You know what's going to happen next. He's going to join a gang. He's going to engage in crimes.
00:30:07.300
He's going to engage in drugs. He could be dead within five years if that kid doesn't get an
00:30:12.060
education. And the Democrats were more than happy to say, we don't care. Right now, our religion is
00:30:16.460
get get the vaccine or we're to hell with you. But can you see I mean, I again, once again,
00:30:22.620
I couldn't agree with you more. But can you feel the frustration of people, including your voters,
00:30:27.580
ever, you know, every American at the emphasis on foreign countries and the threat we supposedly face,
00:30:34.180
a lot of which is fake, obviously, over over the kind of slowly unfolding tragedy of what's
00:30:42.620
happening to our country? The dollar spent, the aid packages to Ukraine to pay the retirement of
00:30:49.300
civil servants in a country that we have nothing to do with the endless support for Israel,
00:30:56.300
very expensive when people are literally buying groceries on credit in the United States.
00:31:01.560
Can you feel like it's nothing against Ukraine or Israel? All right, let's stop. You said the
00:31:05.880
support for Israel, very expensive. How much support do we give to Israel? Well, you tell me you vote
00:31:10.620
for it. It's about three billion a year is the military assistance. Was that the only assistance?
00:31:14.580
Yeah, we just have military assistance. Israel does not have additional assistance. There's there's an
00:31:19.320
MOU, a memorandum of understanding, and it's three billion a year.
00:31:22.000
So what is it costing the support of the bombing campaign to protect Israel right now from Iran?
00:31:28.900
So I don't know right now, but I'll tell you this. Let's go back to the touchstone on foreign policy,
00:31:34.460
American interest. Our support, our military support for Israel is massively in America's
00:31:41.460
national security. And it benefits us enormously. Well, before we can make independent judgments about
00:31:46.940
whether or not that's true, and I'm certainly open to it, I think we need to know what it costs. So
00:31:50.940
what's the annual cost of defending Israel? Do you know? Three billion a year. That's the aid. But I
00:31:56.080
mean, the cost of the weapons, for example, the cost of U.S. personnel there, the cost of moving
00:32:02.620
ships to the region, which we're doing right now, the cost of moving tankers, all of that. Do we know
00:32:07.260
what the cost is? So look, the last week, I don't know. And there's some lag when the administration
00:32:12.100
under the Constitution, the commander in chief has control of the armed forces. And so President
00:32:16.040
Trump has made some decisions that will know the cost over time. But I don't know the last week that
00:32:21.900
that I don't have visibility on that. The annual cost is three billion. That's that's it's a 10 year
00:32:28.200
memorandum of understanding. And that's that's the principal driver of the cost. But let me make a
00:32:32.280
point. We get massive benefits from Israel. Israel shares the Mossad is one of the best intelligence
00:32:40.100
sources on the planet. The enemies of Israel, the people who hate Israel, they all hate us.
00:32:45.760
It's almost a perfect overlap. And so if we tried to recreate if we're just trying to defend America,
00:32:51.320
we tried to recreate the national security benefits of our alliance with Israel. It would cost, I don't
00:32:57.520
know, 30 billion, 300 billion. So can you elaborate? And again, I'm going into this as someone who's
00:33:03.100
always liked Israel and still does. But I also think at this point, given where we are, it's fair to ask
00:33:08.500
rational questions about what the benefits are. Good. So does Mossad share all of its intelligence
00:33:15.540
with us? Oh, probably not. But they share a lot. We don't share all of our intelligence with them,
00:33:20.220
but we share a lot. It's a close alliance. Do they spy domestically in the United States?
00:33:24.240
Oh, they probably do. And we do as well. And friends and allies spy on each other. And I assume
00:33:28.760
all of our allies spy on us. And that's OK with you? You know what? One of the things about being
00:33:34.380
a conservative is that you're not naive and utopian. You don't think humans are all... Part
00:33:40.160
of the reason socialism doesn't work is the mantra from each according to his abilities to each
00:33:45.380
according to his needs doesn't work. As a conservative, I assume people act in their
00:33:49.800
rational self-interest. So it's conservative to pay people to spy on you?
00:33:53.820
It's conservative to recognize that human beings act in their own self-interest. And every one of our
00:33:58.600
friends spies on us. And I'm not... Do you like it? That's my question. I'm not asking whether they
00:34:03.020
have motive to do it. Of course they do. I understand that. And I... And by the way...
00:34:06.800
I'm not mad at them. But you're an American lawmaker, so I just want to know... Hold on.
00:34:10.900
I want to know your attitude. You said that your guiding principle, in fact, the only principle,
00:34:16.740
the only criterion... I said guiding. The overwhelming. I wouldn't say only.
00:34:20.020
Is it in America's interest? Is it in America's interest for Israel to spy on us,
00:34:23.640
including on the president? It is in America's interest to be closely allied with Israel because
00:34:31.160
we get huge benefits for it. And you want to see the clear...
00:34:34.940
But I just want to stop on the spying for a second. That it takes place, as you know,
00:34:39.360
including on the president of the United States and several precedents. And I just want to know
00:34:44.780
if that's okay. And why is it okay? Wouldn't an American lawmaker say to a client state,
00:34:50.220
you're not allowed to spy on us. I'm sorry. I know why you want to. I'm not mad at you,
00:34:54.420
And I don't care for it. I don't want to be spied on by you. Is that...
00:34:56.940
It's kind of weird not to say that, but you don't seem able to say that.
00:35:02.300
Sure. I would say don't spy on us. They're going to anyway. And by the way,
00:35:05.360
the Brits are, the Canadians are. Like, I don't think...
00:35:07.940
Well, I'm not for that at all. I think it's disgusting, but we don't actually pay their...
00:35:12.540
You know, we're not their most meaningful sponsor. We're not sort of paying for the
00:35:17.180
So I had to say, and this is... It's weird. We're talking about isolation. It's the obsession
00:35:24.860
I don't think I'm obsessed with Israel. Okay. But I think a lot of people are. And
00:35:27.580
like the question, Israel spies on us. Well, so does every other country. Why are you mad
00:35:30.820
at Israel? I guess... Oh, no, no, no. I'm... I'm hardly the one who's... I've never taken
00:35:40.120
So AIPAC raises a lot of money for me, but it's actually a misnomer because the people who
00:35:44.120
raise money are individuals. So it's not the PAC itself, but they're individual members who
00:35:49.080
believe in the American-Israeli friendship and relationship.
00:35:52.900
Is it a foreign lobby? No, it's an American lobby. It's the... AIPAC stands for the
00:35:57.340
America-Israeli Political Action Committee. What is it lobby for?
00:36:00.500
So, to be honest, not a whole lot effectively. Listen, I came into Congress 13 years ago...
00:36:08.420
Yes. ...with the stated intention of being the leading defender of Israel in the United
00:36:12.720
States Senate, and I've worked every day to do that. AIPAC, a lot of times... AIPAC, I wish
00:36:20.120
were much more effective. Like, there are folks online who are in the fever swamp of terrified
00:36:25.980
of AIPAC, and AIPAC... I'm not terrified of AIPAC at all. I'm... You're the one who seems a little
00:36:30.220
uncomfortable when I'm asking this. No, I'm not uncomfortable at all.
00:36:32.040
I'm just asking what AIPAC does. My understanding, having known a lot of people who want AIPAC...
00:36:36.220
I can tell you. I deal with them all the time. ...is that it lobbies on behalf of the Israeli
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When was the last time AIPAC took a position that deviated from Prime Minister Netanyahu?
00:39:51.280
Okay. Let me go back and give a little history. If you want to do a deep dive on AIPAC.
00:39:56.640
I don't. I want to do a shallow dive that gets to the core question. AIPAC is lobbying for a
00:40:01.860
foreign government. It's not. It's lobbying for the United States?
00:40:06.160
It is lobbying for a strong US-Israeli relationship.
00:40:09.700
Okay. So it has nothing to do with the foreign government.
00:40:14.080
It wants America and Israel to be closely allied.
00:40:18.220
Okay. But it's lobbying on behalf of the interests of another country.
00:40:26.640
How much contact do you think AIPAC leaders have for the government of Israel?
00:40:30.720
No idea. I imagine some. I think the government of Israel is often frustrated with AIPAC because
00:40:36.840
Do you think there's any coordination between the government of Israel and AIPAC?
00:40:40.160
Do they talk? Sure. If you're lobbying for more US-Mexico trade, would you talk to people in
00:40:46.460
the US and Mexico and the government? Sure. Like if...
00:40:49.180
So I'm not mad about that. There are a million countries that lobby Washington.
00:40:52.880
I like a lot of those countries, including Israel.
00:40:54.480
Okay. But AIPAC or Americans? They're not Israelis.
00:40:56.160
Hold on. There are tons of Americans who lobby on behalf of foreign governments.
00:40:59.580
I know them. I'm related to some of them. I know how it works. I'm from here.
00:41:02.300
So my question is not, is it outrageous that foreign governments lobby the United States?
00:41:06.680
They all do. Okay. Including Israel. My only question is, why don't we admit that is what's
00:41:12.200
happening? You're denying it, but it's true. And why aren't they registered as a foreign lobby?
00:41:20.760
No, they're not. And there's a fever swamp. Look, it's not a fever swamp. These are very
00:41:25.560
reasonable questions. And you've accused me of being obsessed with Israel, which I'm not.
00:41:28.680
I actually haven't. I've said isolationists are.
00:41:30.680
Which I'm not at all. I'm just, I find it, it's a very tender spot when you ask it. And I don't
00:41:36.540
know why. So Tucker, all right, let's go back. I was first elected to the Senate in 2012. I came
00:41:45.420
in in Obama's second term. And I actually saw AIPAC be badly wounded in a way they never came back
00:41:53.160
from. And the second term is when Obama did the Iran nuclear deal. And the Iran nuclear deal,
00:41:59.460
I think, was catastrophic. And AIPAC went all in lobbying against it.
00:42:04.940
And they failed. And I was the leading opponent of the Iran nuclear deal.
00:42:10.540
They failed. And what happened, the Obama White House told every Democrat,
00:42:14.920
when I got here, there used to be real bipartisan support for Israel. That has largely disappeared.
00:42:20.480
And it's the Obama nuclear deal that caused it, because the Obama White House told every Democrat,
00:42:26.120
pick. You either stand with Israel or you're a Democrat and you stand with the Obama White House.
00:42:31.400
And almost every single Democrat member of Congress said, I'm a Democrat first to hell with Israel.
00:42:36.460
And then I watched as AIPAC, every one of those Democrats got reelected and AIPAC did nothing about
00:42:42.240
it. And it dramatically reduced AIPAC's influence.
00:42:45.900
I agree. I watched it happen. And by the way, I told AIPAC, I said, look,
00:42:50.240
the analogy, if the NRA was supporting a bunch of politicians and cared about the Second Amendment,
00:42:55.180
and you had politicians that vote to confiscate people's guns, and the NRA turned around and raised
00:43:00.680
money for the people who voted to confiscate guns, you know what? No one would ever care what
00:43:06.780
Sue, you're making the case that AIPAC is not as powerful as people say it is. And I completely
00:43:09.980
agree with you. I've watched that. And I'm not I'm not making the case that AIPAC is all
00:43:14.240
powerful and they're running everything and putting fluoride in the water. I'm not making
00:43:17.380
the case at all, because it's not true. I'm only trying to get to the question of what AIPAC
00:43:21.020
is. And I don't think you're being straightforward about it. AIPAC is lobbying on behalf of the
00:43:26.160
interests of a foreign country, and they're not registered. And you're saying, no, that's
00:43:29.220
not true. You're saying that they don't coordinate with the Israeli government.
00:43:32.580
Of course, I coordinate. Do they talk with them? I don't know what they do.
00:43:36.980
But why don't you care? Isn't it meaningful if a foreign government?
00:43:42.520
Of course you do. Of course you do. But the law is and a lot of people have been prosecuted
00:43:46.780
under this law that if you are lobbying on behalf of foreign government, you must register. That's
00:43:50.460
it. It's really simple. And I don't know why if I'm working from Malaysia or Qatar or Belgium
00:43:56.140
and I'm working on behalf of its government's interests through a group of Americans who are
00:44:01.300
representing the friendship between those two nations, I have to register under the Foreign
00:44:05.000
Agent Registration Act. And if I don't, I can go to jail. People have gone to jail,
00:44:08.060
people I know. OK, so I don't understand why we don't just be honest and say they're
00:44:13.540
lobbying on behalf of foreign government. They're coordinating with the government.
00:44:16.220
You know that that's true. That is not only not true, that is false.
00:44:20.220
They're not coordinating with the Israeli government.
00:44:25.580
For elected officials, like what they do, like what the actual mechanics is.
00:44:29.000
I mean, they go to people who are sympathetic to Israel and raise money and then send it to
00:44:32.300
candidates who agree with them. So what they'll do is so in my last election,
00:44:36.940
AIPAC endorsed me and they'll host a fundraiser and they'll host a fundraiser in Dallas or Houston
00:44:41.720
or Atlanta or New York or L.A. And they'll do a fundraiser and they'll get someone who will host
00:44:46.460
it. And it's usually a business owner, lawyer, doctor, someone who hosts it. And you get typically
00:44:51.800
at an AIPAC fundraiser 30, 40, 50, maybe 100 people who live in that city.
00:44:57.280
Who care about a strong U.S.-Israel relationship. And if they have, you know, 50 people, each of
00:45:02.960
them writes a thousand dollar check and you raise 50,000.
00:45:05.460
Yeah, I've been to an AIPAC fundraiser. I know what it looks like.
00:45:08.780
But that is not. And by the way, there's no representative of the Israeli government there.
00:45:13.880
You have when you're in Dallas, you're meeting with.
00:45:15.920
This is such a false and silly conversation. I know all this. I know all this. The question is,
00:45:19.320
is are AIPAC's goals shaped by the goals of the Israeli government to any extent?
00:45:26.880
It's a simple question. Is AIP, are AIPAC's goals shaped by the goals of the Israeli government?
00:45:32.640
And I'm just going to ask you a question straightforwardly. And if you say no,
00:45:39.460
Are they coordinating with the Israeli government?
00:45:44.980
What are, you want to talk about FARA, the law on lobbying on behalf of someone.
00:45:48.900
It is, I hire you and you lobby on behalf of me. I direct you. Does Israel direct AIPAC?
00:45:53.780
No, they're not lobbying on behalf of them. Do they care about them? Yes. But do you think
00:45:59.660
that it's just interesting because what you're now describing in a very defensive way, I will say,
00:46:07.980
And you began, and it's so transparently obvious to everybody. I don't know why you'd be embarrassed
00:46:12.760
of it. You've said that you are sincerely for Israel. I believe you. I don't think you have
00:46:22.900
The obsession with Israel. When we're talking about foreign countries.
00:46:26.640
You're not talking about Chinese. You're not talking about Japanese. You're not talking about
00:46:29.640
the Brits. You're not talking about the French. The question, what about the Jews? What about the
00:46:37.320
You're asking, why are the Jews controlling our foreign policy? That's what you just asked.
00:46:41.880
I'm hardly saying that. That is exactly what you just said.
00:46:44.820
Well, actually, I can speak for myself and tell you what I am saying.
00:46:47.980
On behalf, not simply of myself, but of my many Jewish friends who would have the same questions,
00:46:52.540
which is to what extent, and it's interesting you're trying to derail my questions by calling
00:46:58.760
Of course you are. And rather than be honorable enough to say it right to my face,
00:47:03.120
you are in a sleazy, feline way implying it or just asking questions about the Jews. I'm not
00:47:07.880
asking questions about the Jews. I have, there's nothing to do with that.
00:47:11.880
There's nothing to do with Jews or Judaism. It has to do with a foreign government.
00:47:14.060
Isn't Israel controlling our foreign policy? That's not about the Jews.
00:47:18.160
And by the way, you're the one that just called me, I think, a sleazy feline. So let's be clear.
00:47:22.100
It's sleazy to imply that I'm an anti-Semite, which you just did.
00:47:25.860
No, I just said, why is that the only question you're asking? You answer it. Give me another
00:47:29.420
reason. If you're not an anti-Semite, give me another reason why the obsession is Israel.
00:47:33.980
I am in no sense obsessed with Israel. We are on the brink of war with Iran.
00:47:37.500
And so these are valid questions. If I can finish, you asked me why I'm obsessed with
00:47:46.460
Israel. Three minutes after telling me that when you first ran for Congress, you elucidated one of
00:47:51.980
your main goals, which is to defend Israel. And I'm the one who's obsessed with Israel. I don't see
00:47:57.040
a lawmaker's job as defending the interests of a foreign government, period. Any government,
00:48:01.200
including the ones that my ancestors come from. So that's my position. That does not make me an
00:48:04.360
anti-Semite. And shame on you for suggesting otherwise. And I mean that. And that's low,
00:48:08.960
and you know it's low. So why don't you just answer my questions in a straightforward,
00:48:12.440
rational way? You certainly have the IQ to do it.
00:48:19.540
I'm obsessed with the Jews. You just told me that you ran.
00:48:24.340
It is sleazy to imply that I'm an anti-Semite for asking questions about how my government is
00:48:29.280
Do you want to count how many questions you asked about? What about the Jews? What about Israel? What about
00:48:32.480
I never asked about the Jews. I have, this has nothing to do with the Jews, whatever that means.
00:48:38.520
This has to do with a foreign government. And once again, shame on you for conflating the two.
00:48:44.360
They have nothing to do with each other. I'm talking about the influence of the foreign-
00:48:46.900
Israel and Jews have nothing to do with each other.
00:48:48.540
No. All Jews are an attack on all Jews, which I am not, nor would I ever be undertaking now. I'm not
00:48:57.060
By the way, that's who Iran wants to kill, is all the Jews and all the Americans.
00:49:00.820
And I'm totally opposed to that, okay? But now, because specific decisions need to be made.
00:49:10.020
But I just want to get a sense of whether you think, having described yourself as an America
00:49:14.100
first person, whose only criterion for judgment on foreign policy is America's national interest,
00:49:18.960
to what extent you're influenced by a foreign government, which gives you a lot of money
00:49:22.440
through its lobby. And you're claiming this has nothing to do with the foreign government.
00:49:25.300
They're not courted. And yes, they're spying on us, but it doesn't bother you.
00:49:27.540
And I'm sort of wondering, like, what is this? This is one of the weirdest conversations I've
00:49:32.120
I'll tell you what, and I'll answer any question you like, but let's try to...
00:49:35.140
Are you going to call me an anti-Semite again or no?
00:49:36.820
Let's try to ratchet down the temperature a little.
00:49:39.040
You're the one who went to motive. I'm asking honest questions.
00:49:42.440
Just asking questions. Yes, that is what I'm doing.
00:49:45.920
Let's try to ratchet down the temperature a little bit.
00:49:47.880
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Talk. And did you ever see an Eddie Murphy movie called The Distinguished Gentleman? No. It's a great
00:51:02.100
movie. It's actually a fun comedy about politics. And Eddie Murphy in the movie is a con man who gets
00:51:08.000
elected to Congress. And he's literally a con man who the congressman dies. He has the same name.
00:51:13.040
And so he runs and they get elected. And there's a scene in the movie where Eddie Murphy is a freshman
00:51:17.400
member of Congress and he's sitting down with a sleazy lobbyist. And he's asking the lobbyist,
00:51:23.480
all right, what should my positions be on? I think they were talking about power plants and
00:51:27.360
electrical transmission lines. And the lobbyist is like, well, what do you believe?
00:51:33.720
And Eddie Murphy's comments said, I don't care. Whatever gets me the most money, I'll do whatever
00:51:37.300
gets me the most money. And the lobbyist says, no, no, pick a side. Doesn't matter what you pick.
00:51:41.580
If you pick one side, we'll go shake down everyone who supports that size and they'll
00:51:45.860
give you money. If you pick the other side, that's fine. We'll just go to the other side
00:51:48.280
and shake down that. That's a little bit the way it works. And you often get leftists in the media
00:51:54.960
who say, for example, if you support the Second Amendment, as you do and I do, well, you're just
00:51:59.420
bought and paid for by the NRA. And that actually is backwards. I believe in the Second Amendment
00:52:03.560
because I believe in the Constitution. Now, am I proud that the NRA supports me? Sure, because people
00:52:08.040
who care about the Second Amendment want to support leaders who fight for it. But it gets it backward.
00:52:12.600
Look, AIPAC, when I ran for the Senate, AIPAC didn't support me. I supported Israel before they
00:52:17.340
supported me. I'm happy to have their support because they share my objective. No, but you're
00:52:22.060
missing it. I'm not suggesting that you're bought and paid for. I'm not saying that. I think your views
00:52:26.180
are sincere. I want to go back and take the transcript because you just said a minute ago,
00:52:30.360
are you, I'm slightly paraphrasing, but are you, are you lobbying for a foreign government
00:52:35.580
because they pay you a lot of money? That's basically what you said. So you are suggesting
00:52:39.000
that. Let me, let me just be clear about what I think. Your views seem totally sincere. Yes.
00:52:43.600
You take money from people who agree with you. Yeah. I believe that. I'm only trying. I take money
00:52:48.820
from people who disagree with me. I'm only trying to get to the question of to what extent is the
00:52:54.580
U.S. government influenced by other governments? And it's a lot. Of course. It's hardly just Israel.
00:52:59.160
It's hardly just Israel. I don't think Israel is the main one. There are lots of governments.
00:53:02.560
China is a massive influence on the city. And it's a huge problem. As you know,
00:53:05.840
I couldn't agree more. And there are lots of other, the UK, which is a truly sinister place,
00:53:10.440
in my opinion, as an ethnic Brit, I can say, I think it's, that's my view. You, maybe you disagree.
00:53:15.760
I think they're on the wrong path. I love the Brits, but their government has gone off the rails.
00:53:20.120
Without even getting into that. I'm just saying, I don't think Israel is the only one,
00:53:23.000
but it's the only one where you're instantly called an anti-Semite for asking questions.
00:53:26.800
And it's also the only government that no one will ever criticize.
00:53:29.340
People criticize Israel every minute of every day. Like, the only government that people will
00:53:34.540
not criticize? Rashida Tlaib just tweeted out calling Benjamin Netanyahu a war criminal.
00:53:44.560
I'm talking about Republicans that I would vote for, including you. And I'm saying, you know,
00:53:50.360
whatever. I don't even like talking about Israel. What I care about, I never do,
00:53:55.040
because it's not worth being called anti-Semites from AIPAC recipients. But now we're on the verge
00:54:01.660
of joining a war. And I just want to be clear about why we're doing this.
00:54:07.780
All right. So, and let's get into Iran momentarily, but you suggested it was a strange thing that I
00:54:15.360
said a minute ago that when I came into the Senate, I resolved that I was going to be the leading
00:54:18.780
defender of Israel. And what you didn't ask is why. So let me tell you why.
00:54:21.640
No, you said I was obsessed with Israel. And you had just told me that, like, your driving
00:54:26.060
motive to get to the Senate was to defend Israel. I'm like, I don't think I'm the one who's obsessed
00:54:32.240
So, Tucker, words matter. And you know that. I said I resolved to be the leading defender of
00:54:39.760
Israel. And you said your driving motive, the reason you're in the Senate.
00:54:42.700
You want to be the leading defender of Israel. I would think if I ran for Senate, I'd be like,
00:54:46.120
there are people dying of drug odies on the street.
00:54:48.280
My driving motive is to fight for Texas and America and to fight for jobs and to fight for
00:54:53.200
the Constitution. And you played a very, very careful word game of a lie to you.
00:55:00.220
So you still haven't asked why, but I'm going to tell you why.
00:55:04.240
And the reason is twofold. Number one, as a Christian, growing up in Sunday school, I was
00:55:10.000
taught from the Bible, those who bless Israel will be blessed and those who curse Israel will
00:55:15.440
be cursed. And from my perspective, I want to be on the blessing side of things.
00:55:21.960
Those who bless Israel is what it says. It doesn't say the government of, it says the nation
00:55:24.960
of Israel. So that's in the Bible. As a Christian, I believe that.
00:55:30.200
I can find it to you. I don't have the scripture off the tip of mine. You pull out the phone and
00:55:35.700
It's in Genesis. But so you're quoting a Bible phrase. You don't have context for it. You don't
00:55:41.000
know where in the Bible it is, but that's like your theology. I'm confused. What does that even
00:55:47.100
I'm a Christian. I want to know what you're talking about.
00:55:50.120
Where does my support for Israel come from? Number one, because biblically we are commanded
00:55:58.060
No, no, no. Hold on. You're a senator and now you're throwing out theology and I am a Christian. I am
00:56:02.680
allowed to weigh in on this. We are commanded as Christians to support the government of Israel?
00:56:09.880
We're told those who bless Israel will be blessed.
00:56:11.760
But what? Hold on. Define Israel. This is important. Are you kidding? This is a majority
00:56:16.440
Define Israel? Do you not know what Israel is? That would be the country you've asked like
00:56:21.980
So that's what Genesis, that's what God is talking about.
00:56:26.800
So is that the current borders, the current leadership? He's talking about the political
00:56:31.180
He's talking about the nation of Israel. Yeah, nations exist and he's discussing a nation.
00:56:36.480
Is the nation God's referring to in Genesis, is that the same as the country run by Benjamin
00:56:43.640
And by the way, it's not run by Benjamin Netanyahu as a dictator. It's a democratic country that
00:56:48.500
I'm not saying he's a dictator. He's the prime minister. What?
00:56:51.100
But just like, you know, America is the country run by Donald Trump. No, actually,
00:56:55.060
the American people elected Donald Trump. The same principle is there.
00:56:57.820
This is silly. I'm talking about the political entity of modern Israel.
00:57:01.880
I do believe that's what God was talking about in Genesis.
00:57:08.280
For thousands of years. Now, there was a time when it didn't exist and then it was
00:57:13.280
But I'm saying, I think most people understand that line in Genesis to refer to the Jewish
00:57:24.840
It says, OK, Israel, but you don't even know where in the Bible it is.
00:57:40.140
All right, Tucker, you keep interrupting me before I finish my sentence.
00:57:42.660
No, it's just important to know what you're talking about.
00:57:45.540
So you're saying as a Christian, if I believe in Jesus, I have to support the modern state
00:57:51.140
But I'm explaining for me what my vote motivation is.
00:57:58.360
You said God tells you to support the modern state of Israel in the Bible, in some place
00:58:03.300
in the Bible that you heard about, but you don't know where it is.
00:58:09.560
I mean, if you accuse me of anti-Semitism again, I will say that, but I don't think you
00:58:17.500
You're throwing this stuff out and it's my job to figure out what you're talking about.
00:58:30.000
But I also, what I was about to say, I don't believe my personal faith, not everyone who
00:58:36.800
It's not an argument for me to give that we should do this because of my faith.
00:58:41.140
And so as an elected official, I don't give that as the reason we should support Israel.
00:58:47.340
But but I don't think it is the reason we should.
00:58:50.200
The reason that I am the leading defender of Israel is because Israel is our strongest
00:58:54.280
ally in the Middle East, an incredibly troubled part of the world and supporting Israel benefits
00:59:00.120
And the clearest illustration of that is what is happening right now.
00:59:06.380
And then OK, and then I'll just ask what you mean.
00:59:09.320
Iran, I think the most acute national security threat facing America right now is the threat
00:59:18.880
I think China is the biggest long term threat, but acute and near term is a nuclear Iran.
00:59:25.220
And I think Israel is doing a massive favor to America right now by trying to take out
00:59:33.860
And the reason I view Iran differently, we talked before about Iraq, I opposed the Iraq
00:59:39.240
We talked about Syria, I opposed military intervention in Syria.
00:59:42.160
The reason for that is those did not pose a threat to the United States.
00:59:47.960
Number one, the Ayatollah is a religious zealot.
00:59:51.640
He is a lunatic, but a particularly dangerous kind of lunatic because he's driven by religious
00:59:57.920
fervor when he says death to America and death to Israel, I believe him.
01:00:03.800
And I think Iran is trying to get a nuclear weapon because there is a very real possibility
01:00:10.780
So you want to ask how does supporting Israel benefit us?
01:00:13.680
Right now, this tiny little country, the size of the state of New Jersey, is fighting our
01:00:19.320
enemies for us and taking out their top military leadership and trying to take out their nuclear
01:00:28.560
So the president has said repeatedly Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon and he will do whatever
01:00:34.780
it takes to stop Iran from getting a nuclear weapon.
01:00:39.680
I think he will use force to affect that if he feels he has to.
01:00:48.240
Whether he would use force to stop a nuclear weapon, I think he has put that option on the
01:00:53.800
I mean, I have literally no idea what's going to happen.
01:00:55.780
But just reading his statements, he's made that really clear.
01:00:58.920
So what he has been very clear about, and I spoke with the president on Sunday, is he
01:01:03.480
has been very clear to Iran that if they attack U.S. service men and women, there will be real
01:01:11.180
By the way, this is a sidebar, but I just can't resist.
01:01:13.460
The prime minister of Israel said that Iran tried to assassinate Donald Trump twice.
01:01:17.260
Yeah, I read your newsletter this morning, and-
01:01:25.100
What is true is Iran is trying to assassinate Donald J. Trump, and they have hired hit men.
01:01:30.020
No, he said that they have tried twice to kill him, and I don't know that- I don't have any
01:01:35.740
evidence that's true, but I sort of wonder if that is true.
01:01:38.940
Okay, and I read your newsletter this morning, and I thought it was playing word games to draw a
01:01:52.120
You rightly pointed out there's no evidence that this clown in Butler, Pennsylvania, who
01:01:57.520
shot the president, was working for the Iranians.
01:02:00.100
There's no evidence of that, although I would like to know more about who he was and what's
01:02:04.380
going on, but I don't find it plausible that he was working for the Iranians.
01:02:12.480
But what is true, and what your newsletter didn't acknowledge, is it true or false that
01:02:16.180
Iran is currently trying to murder Donald J. Trump and has paid hit men to do so?
01:02:20.600
Well, that's the question, and I don't know the Butler, Pennsylvania thing.
01:02:27.180
So Netanyahu misspoke Polk when he said those two assassinations were because of Iran, but
01:02:31.660
what he was saying that is right is they're actively trying to murder Donald J. Trump.
01:02:43.160
It has been over the last, I'd say, 18 months to two years.
01:02:51.520
For the Trump attempted assassination, no, but they are also actively paying Iranian hit
01:02:59.600
men to murder Mike Pompeo when he was President Trump's first Secretary of State, the first
01:03:05.040
John Bolton, when John Bolton was National Security Advisor to President Trump, and a guy
01:03:09.600
named Brian Hook, who was Assistant Secretary of State, during the Biden administration-
01:03:13.900
Can we go back to Donald Trump because he's the president?
01:03:18.980
No one has been arrested for these assassination attempts on Trump.
01:03:29.980
So, the reason I brought up Pompeo, Bolton, and Hook, who are under active assassination
01:03:35.820
attempts because of their service of the first Trump administration, under the Biden-
01:03:49.120
Under the Biden administration, the State Department was spending $2 million a month
01:03:54.800
providing security for Pompeo, Bolton, and Hook.
01:03:58.520
And they did arrest Iranian hitmen at John Bolton's apartment complex, who rented, I think,
01:04:04.900
the apartment next to him, and were actively trying to assassinate him, and they went and
01:04:20.520
If there's a plot to kill Trump by the Iranians-
01:04:23.340
Okay, so you dispute that the Iranians are trying to kill Trump?
01:04:29.980
The prime minister of Israel just said there have been two assassination attempts against
01:04:36.400
And I think it's a very fair question, maybe you disagree, to ask, what are you talking about?
01:04:46.140
There were two attempts, but the clown in Butler, Pennsylvania, and the other guy on
01:04:50.240
the golf course were not connected to the Iranians.
01:04:55.580
But by the way, when you speak all the time, occasionally, what he said that was accurate
01:05:00.100
is that Iran is actively trying to murder Donald J. Trump in his paid hitmen.
01:05:06.200
And he was conflating it with the two attempts.
01:05:09.680
But I just want to pull that thread because it's so important.
01:05:16.880
So, if Iran, if there's evidence that Iran paid hitmen to kill Donald Trump and is currently
01:05:35.020
We know that it's true because we have been told that by the military and our intelligence
01:05:49.580
Do we know the names of the people or where this happened or what they tried to do to kill
01:05:54.860
We have not apprehended an Iranian hitman trying to kill him.
01:06:04.720
This just seems like a huge headline and you're acting like everyone knows this.
01:06:08.780
Iran put out a whole video about murdering Trump.
01:06:13.680
But I've never heard evidence that there are hitmen in the United States.
01:06:17.460
I mean, trying to kill Trump right now, we should like have a nationwide dragnet on this
01:06:22.280
and we should attack Iran immediately if that's true.
01:06:27.680
If they're trying to assassinate our president?
01:06:34.580
Why don't we just nuke Tehran if they're trying to murder our president?
01:06:37.340
There's nothing that you could do that would be worse for the United States than murdering
01:06:41.660
And I just don't understand why you're not calling for the use of nuclear weapons against
01:06:51.600
You don't seem to take the allegations seriously.
01:06:54.000
If you believe they're trying to murder Trump, we need to stop what we're doing and punish them.
01:07:03.680
20 years ago, you were, I think it's fair to say, in the interventionist world.
01:07:17.220
And you now, and I, look, I think you think you were mistaken.
01:07:29.940
In my view, they've gone way too far the other end.
01:07:37.560
This is one of the weirdest conversations I've ever had.
01:07:39.600
I'm saying, if it's true that Iran is trying to murder Trump, we need to move militarily
01:07:46.180
That's the most, that's a cult of violence, which I am calling for.
01:07:49.860
If we believe that Iran is trying to murder our president, we need to strike Iran.
01:07:53.480
OK, but isolationists say things like, well, then just nuke them, which is what you just
01:07:57.900
Because I'm upset because I'm taking you seriously.
01:08:04.180
So I've asked you, where's the evidence this is true?
01:08:06.140
And you've said, well, they're trying to assassinate Brian Hook or something, which I'm against,
01:08:10.300
I'm against hurting any American, period, no matter.
01:08:16.400
I mean, they literally arrested the hitman with Bolton.
01:08:18.020
I'm not, I don't know why that's even relevant.
01:08:20.280
I'm asking about the president of the United States.
01:08:21.900
Wait, it's not relevant that Iran hired hitmen to murder cabinet members in Trump's administration.
01:08:27.100
That doesn't go to how credible is it that they're willing to spend money to do that.
01:08:38.500
I'm asking about your allegation and the prime minister of Israel's allegation that Iran is
01:08:49.320
Killing people who are trying to murder Americans is a good thing.
01:08:51.740
Because if you're America first, you want to protect America.
01:08:56.060
And so taking out, killing Osama bin Laden was a fantastic day for the world.
01:09:00.420
But you don't really believe that they're trying to murder Trump.
01:09:02.940
Then why aren't you calling for military action against Tehran right now?
01:09:06.640
In terms of hitmen, their hitmen are not very effective.
01:09:09.720
Oh, so they're hitmen, but not the bad kind, the efficient kind?
01:09:13.540
They're a weak country who is on its knees, and I think we need to...
01:09:17.880
Why are they the biggest threat if they're a weak country that's on its knees?
01:09:37.440
Look, I believe there is a very real possibility if the Ayatollah develops a nuclear weapon that he would detonate it either in Tel Aviv or New York or Los Angeles.
01:09:53.740
Let me compare and contrast Iran to North Korea.
01:09:57.260
Wait, can I just ask one last question about trying to kill the president?
01:10:00.000
President, you sincerely believe, you promise, that right now the Iranian government is trying to murder our president.
01:10:08.740
And yet you are not calling for military action against the government that's trying to murder our president.
01:10:26.740
I think we should protect the president and we should take out our enemies.
01:10:34.360
And by the way, your first question was, why are we for regime change?
01:10:38.260
That's a pretty good example of why I'm for regime change.
01:10:41.080
OK, so you're saying we should just go in and take out the government of Iran.
01:10:43.660
Why would we outsource it to Israel if they're trying to murder our president?
01:10:48.620
What I'm saying on any military judgment is there needs to be a cost benefit analysis of what are the risks versus what are the benefits.
01:10:57.140
In this instance, I think it is enormously in America's interest to do what Israel is doing right now.
01:11:03.200
Take out Iran's senior military leadership and take out their nuclear capacity.
01:11:11.760
I would oppose invading Iran and putting boots on the ground to topple the government.
01:11:18.060
If the risk got severe enough, I would support that.
01:11:22.380
But I think the relative risk is not severe enough to justify that step at this time.
01:11:27.740
What I would absolutely oppose under any circumstances is invading Iran and then staying and trying to turn them into a democracy.
01:11:36.320
And part of where Iraq really went off off the rails is not only did we topple someone who was fighting radical Islamic terrorists, who's a bad guy, but then we tried the vision of interventionists.
01:11:48.000
It actually overlaps with the vision of a lot of Democrats.
01:11:53.080
And it is our military's job to kill the bad guys, to defend America.
01:11:57.760
It's not their job to defend international norms.
01:12:01.520
So I have zero desire for the U.S. military to turn Iran into Switzerland.
01:12:06.800
Look, would it be nice if they suddenly became Switzerland?
01:12:11.560
But I'm not going to send your kids or my kids to be in front of guns to go make that happen.
01:12:17.380
I think that is the lesson that I learned from Iraq.
01:12:25.240
And I think you just articulated the main lesson of it, which is it's hard to do that and we're not good at it.
01:12:34.320
I will say as a corollary, that doesn't mean that horrible, evil dictators are OK.
01:12:43.840
And going back to Reagan in the Cold War, we have lots of weapons.
01:12:46.980
I am happy to highlight the brutality, the oppression, the human rights abuses of regimes, even though I don't want to invade them, because I think the bully pulpit of American leadership is really powerful.
01:13:07.580
One of the things I do frequently is highlight dissidents in Iran and North Korea and China.
01:13:16.100
Miriam Ibrahim in Sudan, who was sentenced to 100 lashes and then to be killed for the crime of being a Christian.
01:13:28.060
And I repeatedly went to the Senate floor and shined a light on the government of Sudan.
01:13:33.740
I practically begged Barack Obama, say her name.
01:13:38.140
Ultimately, I felt that way with the J6 prisoners.
01:13:46.920
And ultimately, the international Obama never did say her name.
01:13:52.540
Ultimately, there was enough international condemnation.
01:14:02.120
So she had a two-year-old son, Martin, and she gave birth to a little girl named Maya.
01:14:07.240
And she was in leg irons in prison waiting for the death sentence.
01:14:09.880
They were not going to kill her until she gave birth.
01:14:12.540
And they told her, we will not kill you if you will renounce Jesus.
01:14:20.380
She was in D.C. speaking at a conference after she was released, obviously.
01:14:28.040
I asked her, I said, when you were in that prison cell with your kids,
01:14:33.360
how did you have the strength not to just give in to despair?
01:14:37.800
I mean, that, you know, I've never been threatened with murder unless I renounce my faith.
01:14:43.480
And she just said to me with a real peacefulness, she said, Jesus was with me.
01:14:48.420
And I mean, thankfully, you and I have not faced that circumstance.
01:15:05.660
John McCain, who you and I disagreed with on a lot of issues.
01:15:08.600
I respected and admired him for his service and time as a prisoner of war.
01:15:13.780
I think his policies I disagreed with vehemently and fought against them.
01:15:18.100
But the man fought for America and he was thrown in prison and he was tortured by Vietnam.
01:15:25.900
And he was given the opportunity to be released early.
01:15:33.700
And he turned it down because he thought it would be dishonorable to lead before his fellow servicemen and women.
01:15:44.900
When I first got here, McCain hated my guts and he actually referred to me and Rand as Wacko Birds.
01:15:56.600
I have up on the shelf, I have a baseball cap that a grassroots supporter gave me with a picture of Daffy Duck and labeled Wacko Birds, which I liked and laughed when.
01:16:05.280
But when he did that, I went to the Senate floor and I gave a speech praising John McCain.
01:16:12.140
And it was the day he had like attacked me publicly.
01:16:14.900
And it happened to be it was the 40th anniversary of his release from the Hanoi Hilton.
01:16:20.080
And I was consciously I just talked about what a privilege it is to serve with someone who suffered for his country, who served.
01:16:27.420
And I didn't get into where we disagreed on policy on that speech.
01:16:31.540
I just said, you know, the man is an American hero and I'm proud to serve with him.
01:16:35.580
But that was meant to be a statement also that if you attack me, I'm going to praise you not for things that are not praiseworthy.
01:16:40.860
If I disagree with you, I will not be shy about saying it.
01:16:55.060
I just want to end by asking you specifically about what's going to happen next in Iran and what should happen next.
01:17:02.680
You said you don't favor the U.S. military participating in any kind of regime change.
01:17:07.580
You said you don't think and bless you for saying this, that the U.S. military should try and turn it into Belgium.
01:17:13.460
But there is a third option where it turns into Syria, where it's this open wound and it causes massive migration and further destroys Europe, as Syria has.
01:17:26.820
And where lots of people die and religious minorities get murdered in Syria again.
01:17:33.320
And listen, that lots of bad things can happen.
01:17:36.580
But going back to what we talked about, the principle of defending America, I agree with President Trump that Iran with a nuclear weapon is an unacceptable risk to America and we need to stop it.
01:17:53.020
I agree with President Trump and I'll make a point.
01:18:05.540
Look, it is consequential when the president of the United States says, I'm for regime change.
01:18:12.160
What he has said is he's drawn a red line and said, Iran will not have a nuclear weapon.
01:18:17.260
And the only acceptable outcome is complete dismantlement.
01:18:27.840
And I led 52 senators, Republican senators, in a letter where we said, we agree with President Trump.
01:18:37.580
I agree with him supporting Israel, taking out Iran's military leadership, taking out their nuclear capability.
01:18:43.080
And I'll point out, look, if you look the first term, I am hard pressed to think of a single foreign policy decision Donald Trump made the first term that I disagree with.
01:18:54.280
And that's not entirely accidental because I spent a lot of time the first term in the Oval Office with him.
01:18:59.840
And what happened in the first term often is you would have in the administration, you had interventionists in the administration, you had isolationists, and they disagreed.
01:19:10.220
And often what it would give is an opportunity for me to come in and say, hey, there's a middle path here that President Trump agreed with frequently.
01:19:19.560
And it's worth noting in the first term, he most assuredly was not an isolationist.
01:19:24.980
Look, he took out General Soleimani, which I emphatically agree with.
01:19:29.240
And in fact, I introduced a resolution that we voted on the Senate floor commending him for taking out General Soleimani, who was the leader of the IRGC and who was responsible for killing over 600 American servicemen and women.
01:19:41.760
When Trump came in, ISIS had a caliphate that had grown up under Obama that was about the size of the state of Indiana.
01:19:53.260
He killed the terrorists, took away their caliphate and defeated them.
01:19:56.880
And he also took out Baghdadi, the head of ISIS.
01:20:00.200
I mean, those are not the actions of an isolationist.
01:20:03.060
But at the same time, I don't know what isolation is.
01:20:18.620
Actually, I want to I want to read from your newsletter, because if you ask what an isolationist is, your newsletter a couple of days ago.
01:20:33.220
Iran cannot have a nuclear bomb, and we're hoping to get back to the negotiating table.
01:20:38.060
There are several people in leadership in Iran that will not be coming back.
01:20:42.740
It's worth taking a step back and wondering how any of this helps the United States.
01:20:57.240
And let me just ask you, when the Ayatollah chants death to America, I believe him.
01:21:04.420
Do you think he doesn't mean it when he says death to America?
01:21:12.540
He also is leading a country in trying to develop a nuclear weapon.
01:21:16.740
So the question is, do you act in a way that makes that more or less likely?
01:21:26.240
One of the ways you shut down debate is by calling people names like isolationists, pretending they're like pro-Nazi or something, or as you did, claiming I'm an anti-Semite.
01:21:34.860
That's not a way to get to a solution or have a rational conversation.
01:21:41.580
OK, so if you don't like the label isolationist, how would you?
01:21:47.280
But Rand opposes every military action in every circumstance.
01:21:51.360
This whole thing is infantile, and you know that it is.
01:21:53.460
It's a way to call people names and make them be quiet.
01:22:00.280
If you don't like that, I'm not trying to have you be quiet.
01:22:03.700
I'm asking, if you don't like the name isolationist, how would you describe it?
01:22:08.140
I would describe myself in the same way you falsely described yourself in this conversation.
01:22:14.140
You said that the only thing that matters in a foreign policy decision is whether it helps the United States.
01:22:23.500
So let me revise what you said and apply it to myself and say the only thing that matters is whether or not it serves the United States.
01:22:29.760
And I feel very stung by what happened in Iraq, if I'm being honest.
01:22:33.960
Possibly because, unlike you, I guess, I supported it.
01:22:36.620
And I saw us get drawn into it in a way that nobody anticipated.
01:22:45.380
And the cost on so many levels to the United States was just so profound.
01:22:48.580
And I felt like, gosh, it reminds me of Kaiser Wilhelm in 1914 saying, my men will be back by the time the leaves turn.
01:22:57.940
And, of course, that destroyed Christian Europe.
01:23:01.000
So it's like you don't really know where these things are going once the shooting starts.
01:23:05.100
And calling people names, anti-Semite, isolationists, to get them to stop talking is not the way to serve your country.
01:23:12.680
So I'm trying to have a real and serious conversation.
01:23:19.000
I wish it had not, because as we started out by saying, you and I agree vehemently on 80 percent of the issues.
01:23:24.860
This discussion is focused on the 20 percent where we don't.
01:23:30.820
You know, I will say, look, on Iraq, you look at the 2016 presidential campaign where you had 17 Republicans running.
01:23:37.660
If you set Rand aside and his views are on one side, there were only two candidates on that stage that opposed the Iraq war.
01:23:48.120
Everyone else thought the Iraq war was a great thing.
01:23:54.860
In my view, you went, I think your foreign policy has gone too far.
01:23:59.180
So, I mean, let me ask you, is there a military action Trump has undertaken that you agree with?
01:24:05.980
A military, look, I would say it's really simple.
01:24:13.160
I think it's morally justified to defend yourself, your family, your property, your nation.
01:24:19.860
And so to the extent that you can deter a threat through violence, violence always being the least appealing choice, violence always being, if I can finish, always being a tragedy, I think you can justify the use of violence in self-defense.
01:24:33.940
That is my personal view, and that applies to me and to the country that I live in.
01:24:45.800
But my problem is that lawmakers in Washington are light on detail with these things, and they speak, as you do, entirely in moral terms.
01:24:58.300
I'm interested in killing people who are trying to kill us.
01:25:03.940
Because you told me that the government of Iran is presently trying to assassinate Donald Trump.
01:25:11.900
There's literally nobody who disputes that fact.
01:25:14.200
Then why don't you support military action right now against Iran?
01:25:20.140
Then why don't you—why don't you support offensive military action?
01:25:30.160
Why shouldn't the U.S. military defend its own president?
01:25:52.560
I know it because the U.S. military and the intelligence agencies have testified before
01:25:58.500
Iran is trying to murder Donald Trump and has hired hitmen.
01:26:04.560
And I don't think we do either because we would apprehend them if we knew their names.
01:26:07.500
Then why don't you take it seriously enough to support killing the Ayatollah in response
01:26:18.840
If I believed that that was true, I would support military action against the government
01:26:24.700
OK, that's interesting because there is literally—
01:26:28.920
Out of 535 members of Congress, I am not aware of one who disputes that Iran is trying
01:26:38.120
That's not—even the looniest Democrat doesn't dispute that.
01:26:40.860
So I don't—you're saying if you believed what is, I think, a fact that they are trying
01:26:59.000
I'm telling you what—and by the way, I'm not the CIA.
01:27:08.700
I'm saying the logic train has a massive hole in it.
01:27:10.920
If you believe that's true, then you should, by definition, support killing the people
01:27:19.900
Tucker, you took offense to the word isolationist.
01:27:25.960
But if you don't like that term, I don't know how else to describe what is a coherent
01:27:30.620
foreign policy that says we're surrounded by two giant nations.
01:27:34.680
By the way, isolationism has long been a school of foreign policy.
01:27:44.980
But is there a single military action Trump took that you agree with?
01:27:48.080
So do you agree with taking out General Soleimani?
01:27:53.660
I mean, you said at the time it would, like, lead us to World War III.
01:28:03.220
Did you agree with taking out the ISIS caliphate?
01:28:05.440
But my—well, if we took out the ISIS caliphate, why are they running Syria right now?
01:28:23.660
It's like, Assad is bad, but no, ISIS runs Syria, but that's fine.
01:28:32.840
You know why I don't care, and why—and you do your, like, trademark smirky laugh.
01:28:42.300
Because you think it's okay because they're not making angry noises or something.
01:28:46.900
But by your own standards, ISIS is so immoral that they must die.
01:28:52.160
But now they're running Syria, and you don't think that we should take military action against
01:28:59.080
What I said is, I don't know how good or bad it'll be.
01:29:05.240
He fell on his own, in part because he was heavily supported by Hezbollah, and when Israel
01:29:09.180
took out the Hezbollah leadership, he lost his base of support.
01:29:12.460
But the current ISIS leadership, you don't think, is bad?
01:29:15.560
You can't say it's terrible that ISIS runs a country?
01:29:25.440
Oh, so you've got to wait and see attitude on ISIS now?
01:29:27.460
On the government of Syria, they are not actively, that I am aware of, trying to murder Americans.
01:29:37.420
I'm just saying it's a little weird that we wage this war against ISIS, and now they're
01:29:42.980
I think that people would be very, very upset about that.
01:29:46.960
By the way, did you agree with Trump taking out al-Baghdadi, the head of ISIS?
01:29:55.120
And if taking out the head of ISIS ends ISIS, I guess I'm for it.
01:30:05.540
I mean, I've taken so many different positions over the years, some of which have been wrong.
01:30:08.740
I really do my best to be honest and correct if they are and admit that I was wrong.
01:30:12.180
I'm not one of these people who's like, I've always been consistent.
01:30:13.840
No, my views change all the time because the facts change all the time.
01:30:24.920
I'm just some guy watching trying to figure out the right thing for America.
01:30:27.280
And I think because you believe you were mistaken, and I agree previously, I think you've overcorrected.
01:30:35.360
I'm worried about turning this mess in Iran into a much larger mess.
01:30:44.500
And I know you've been like, you're like ready to call me all these names for asking, you're just asking questions.
01:30:51.500
If the Ayatollah is killed in Iran, and he very well could be.
01:30:55.760
So I have just read in the paper this morning that Israel tried to take him out twice and Trump told them not to.
01:31:03.820
I don't have independent confirmation one way or the other.
01:31:09.780
As you know, I do a podcast every week, Verdict with Ted Cruz.
01:31:12.140
And I actually talked about it in the latest podcast.
01:31:13.680
And I said, look, I've seen the reporting that says that Trump asked them not to take out the Ayatollah.
01:31:18.920
And what I said, the podcast is I think it's reasonable for them to decide not to try to take him out.
01:31:23.860
What they've done is targeted just about the entire top level of the military, the people that actually conduct the war.
01:31:30.080
I can see an argument that taking out both the head of state and a religious leader could make him a martyr and could cause more problems than it's worth.
01:31:42.000
And by the way, if you take out the Ayatollah, I don't know that the next guy isn't just as bad.
01:31:51.140
But you mentioned before, I want to go back to this.
01:31:52.960
You said something like you, like most other politicians, are engaged in moral terms.
01:32:05.940
So there are bad guys on planet Earth that I don't think we should take out, even though they're bad guys.
01:32:11.540
But I'm not willing to use U.S. military force to take them out.
01:32:16.580
In this instance, what Israel is doing is taking out their capacity to build nuclear weapons.
01:32:24.140
Because they judge the risk is too high if they got nuclear weapons.
01:32:31.060
I think it'll probably be achieved, probably with U.S. military support.
01:32:36.340
And by the way, where the military support is most needed is Fordow, which is the under – it's a bunker that's built under a mountain.
01:32:43.520
And Israel's taken out most of the rest, like the Tons, which is their big enrichment site.
01:32:50.480
Fordow was deliberately built deep into a mountain so that Israel couldn't take it out.
01:32:54.980
And there's an active discussion because the U.S. has bunker buster bombs that are big enough to take out Fordow.
01:33:08.020
But here's – I guess what bothers me is that I said two weeks ago the real goal here is regime change in Iran.
01:33:18.720
I'm just saying it's important to be honest and not lie and not attack people for telling the truth.
01:33:22.320
So I believe I've been assiduously honest in this.
01:33:27.120
You said the real goal here is regime change, and it's your goal.
01:33:35.220
Do I support regime change and would I like a government that doesn't hate America and isn't trying to kill us in Iran?
01:33:42.800
Is that the objective of these military strikes?
01:33:52.000
If Israel decides we're going to decapitate the government and try to foment an uprising against it, should the United States participate in that operation in any way?
01:34:02.060
Look, I have not called for killing the Ayatollah.
01:34:07.000
And there is – nations in war generally refrain from attacking and killing heads of state.
01:34:19.520
Look, there has been a longstanding – nations in war have refrained from killing heads of state.
01:34:27.460
I have not publicly called for killing the Ayatollah.
01:34:29.940
What I've called for is doing whatever is necessary to stop him from getting nuclear weapons.
01:34:34.600
In the first Trump term, what that meant was maximum pressure.
01:34:37.300
So, in the first Trump term, I spent a lot of time urging the president to withdraw from the disastrous Iranian nuclear deal that Obama had.
01:34:47.480
And then I urged him to end the oil waivers and to sanction the hell out of the country.
01:34:54.380
So, Iran at the time was selling two million barrels of oil a day – one million barrels – I'm sorry, one million barrels of oil a day.
01:35:01.720
When President Trump ended the oil waivers, it cut their sales to 300,000 barrels a day.
01:35:08.740
At the end of the Trump term, the Iranian economy was in shambles.
01:35:15.840
I would use economic sanctions and I would use moral suasion to try to effectuate the regime change.
01:35:21.960
Okay, so you topple the regime and buy whatever means.
01:35:31.520
You don't know the population of the country you seek to topple?
01:35:42.060
I don't sit around memorizing population tables.
01:35:44.920
Well, it's kind of relevant because you're calling for the overthrow of the government.
01:35:48.540
Why is it relevant whether it's 90 million or 80 million or 100 million?
01:35:53.060
Because if you don't know anything about the country –
01:36:02.260
No, it's not even – you don't know anything about Iran.
01:36:05.860
Okay, I am not the Tucker Carlson expert on Iran who says –
01:36:08.880
You're a senator who's calling for the overthrow of the government and you don't know anything about the country.
01:36:15.220
You're the one who claims they're not trying to murder Donald Trump.
01:36:19.180
You're the one who can't figure out if it was a good idea to kill General Soleimani and you said it was bad.
01:36:23.040
You don't believe they're trying to murder Trump.
01:36:25.020
Because you're not calling for military strikes against them in retaliation.
01:36:28.160
Okay, we are carrying out military strikes today.
01:36:34.780
Israel is leading them, but we're supporting them.
01:36:36.780
Well, you're breaking news here because the U.S. government last night denied –
01:36:40.660
the National Security Council spokesman Alex Pfeiffer denied on behalf of Trump
01:36:44.100
that we were acting on Israel's behalf in any offensive capacity at all.
01:36:54.280
If you're saying the United States government is at war with Iran right now, people are listening.
01:37:06.200
This is a huge country that borders a lot of other important countries, a lot of the world.
01:37:14.640
Tucker, the Ayatollah refers to Israel as the little Satan and America as the great Satan.
01:37:20.240
When he says it's the great Satan, do you think if the Ayatollah could murder both of us right now that he would?
01:37:28.820
I assume no good faith in the part of the Ayatollah.
01:37:31.400
And if your implication is like I'm pro-Ayatollah or something.
01:37:40.500
This is the most powerful country in the world.
01:37:42.100
If you're calling for toppling in government, it's incumbent on you to know something about the country and to think through the consequences of that.
01:37:50.440
You are – you engage in reckless rhetoric with no facts.
01:37:56.380
I'm not calling for the overthrow of a government.
01:37:58.960
You put out a newsletter attacking Donald Trump and calling him complicit.
01:38:15.480
You put out a whole newsletter saying Trump has abandoned America first.
01:38:20.640
Well, considering that I'm the one that developed America first and considering that the term wasn't used until I came along, I think I'm the one who decides that.
01:38:27.720
For those people who say they want peace, you can't have peace if Iran has a nuclear weapon.
01:38:32.140
So for all of those wonderful people who don't want to do anything about Iran having a nuclear weapon, that's not peace.
01:38:53.660
I think that we should be very careful about entering into more foreign wars that don't help us when our country is dying.
01:39:10.820
You don't know anything about the country whose government you want to overthrow.
01:39:16.340
I want to stop a lunatic who wants to murder us from getting nuclear weapons.
01:39:22.480
You say, I can't see how that benefits America in any way.
01:39:29.680
Your foreign policy is the foreign policy of Jimmy Carter and Barack Obama.
01:39:41.520
So how is your foreign policy different from Jimmy Carter's?
01:39:54.840
I am the product of the last 25 years watching carefully, being involved in the periphery,
01:40:00.300
and I see an unending string of foreign policy disasters that have impoverished and hurt our country.
01:40:06.640
They would include Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, and our inability to stop the Houthis,
01:40:12.560
by the way, in Yemen, which exposes us as weak, and I grieve over that.
01:40:17.560
You helped preside over some of them as a member of the Senate.
01:40:20.460
What failures – foreign policy failures have I presided over?
01:40:24.260
Well, we were unable to beat Russia in the war that you supported against Russia.
01:40:28.860
You've been spending the last three years telling us that Vladimir Putin is evil
01:40:32.940
and we're going to beat him with other people's children, and a million of those kids are now dead.
01:40:39.280
By the way, look, the level of – number of falsehoods you lay out just in one statement are rather stunning.
01:40:49.460
So the war against Russia was caused, which I have explained in great detail, by Joe Biden's weakness.
01:40:59.040
If you want to talk – we can talk Russia and Ukraine.
01:41:10.800
I'm not going to engage in the demanding of apologizing.
01:41:14.920
All these failures – no one ever says I'm sorry.
01:41:17.120
Is that better, or do you just throw out – like, if you want to talk, we can talk.
01:41:22.780
I want to know why – that seems like a true disaster for the United States.
01:41:29.200
Do you believe Joe Biden's weakness caused the war in Ukraine?
01:41:40.500
It is a terrible idea, and I have vigorously opposed Ukraine joining NATO.
01:41:53.940
Tell me – it seems super – you're absolutely right, and I'm sorry.
01:41:58.060
That is a tick of mine that is wrong, and I mean this with sincerity.
01:42:02.880
I just think it seems so obvious that sending Kamala Harris to the NATO Security Conference to say you're going to join NATO is what triggered the invasion days later.
01:42:11.940
So can I – this will take a few minutes to lay out because it's complicated, but I think the facts matter.
01:42:20.520
Number one, I think Biden's incredible weakness and the disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan.
01:42:25.180
Now, I believe we need to leave Afghanistan, but not with the incompetence that involved – that led to 13 servicemen and women.
01:42:34.240
The way Biden did that was disastrous, and I think our enemies looked to the commander-in-chief and said, this president is weak.
01:42:41.500
And when that withdrawal was so disastrous, I said publicly at the time, the chances of Putin invading Ukraine have just risen tenfold.
01:42:54.560
And it was a major cause of – our enemies all said, hey, this president is weak.
01:42:59.400
And so it invited – and by the way, look, I despise war, and I think weakness and isolationism produces war because it invites aggression from our bad guys.
01:43:13.920
It's why I agree with Ronald Reagan's peace through strength.
01:43:16.740
The best way you avoid war is being strong enough that your enemies don't want to mess with you.
01:43:23.740
Look, Putin didn't wake up two years ago and decided he wanted to invade Ukraine.
01:43:32.620
Putin has referred to the collapse of the Soviet Union as, quote, the greatest geopolitical disaster of the 20th century.
01:43:38.720
And Putin has long been explicit his desire is to reassemble the old Soviet Union and, in fact, reassemble the Russian Empire that was even bigger than that.
01:43:48.740
If you want to reassemble the Soviet Union, the natural place to start is Ukraine.
01:43:54.040
Do you really believe that Putin has territorial designs on Eastern Europe?
01:43:58.980
He has said – you can go and read his – hold on.
01:44:01.860
I don't want to lose the narrative of what happened, so we can go back and do that, but I don't want to lose telling the story first.
01:44:07.640
So let me explain this, and then if you want to go back, we can take all sorts of digressions.
01:44:12.160
But just give me a couple of minutes to lay out the facts of what happened.
01:44:16.420
He has wanted to invade Ukraine a long time, and he's done it before.
01:44:23.320
When Barack Obama was president, he invaded the southern portion.
01:44:29.940
And the reason is the principal source of revenue for Russia is oil and gas, and the natural gas pipelines run right through the country of Ukraine, and he didn't want to jeopardize his ability to get gas to Europe.
01:44:43.840
So in 2015, Putin started a project called Nord Stream 2.
01:44:53.780
Wasn't there a coup in Ukraine run by the Obama administration?
01:44:59.880
Let me finish telling – I told you, we'll take lots of digressions in a second.
01:45:10.680
Nord Stream 2 is an undersea pipeline that runs from Russia to Germany.
01:45:13.860
The entire purpose of Nord Stream 2 is when it was completed and turned on, it would let Russia circumvent Ukraine and get its gas straight to Europe.
01:45:23.420
In 2019, Nord Stream 2 was almost complete, and the conventional wisdom in Washington was, this is terrible, but there's nothing we can do about it.
01:45:33.580
So I drafted sanctions legislation that was targeted to stop the pipeline.
01:45:38.840
My legislation passed the Senate with overwhelming bipartisan support.
01:45:43.140
It passed the House, and Donald Trump signed it in law.
01:45:46.600
Why would – can I just ask, why wouldn't you want Germany to have cheap energy?
01:45:51.380
Because it empowers Russia, and I believe in making our enemies weaker and our friends stronger.
01:45:56.940
Has blowing up Nord Stream made Germany stronger?
01:46:01.060
Not being dependent on Russia has made Germany stronger.
01:46:03.820
So you think Germany is stronger now than it was four years ago?
01:46:06.720
I think not being dependent on Russia – Germany has all sorts of problems, and many of them are domestic to their own politics.
01:46:12.860
No, but what you're saying, it doesn't – Germany seems so much weaker now that its energy costs have spiked, and the manufacturing sector is collapsing because of that.
01:46:27.080
I don't want Russia stronger because I believe Russia is our enemy.
01:46:35.680
I don't want to go to war with Russia, but I want our enemies weaker.
01:46:40.960
I don't want Putin rich with oil and gas revenues and able to invest in his military and pose a threat to America.
01:46:48.800
So, the sanctions legislation that I authored, it passed.
01:46:53.680
Putin stopped building Nord Stream 2 literally the day that President Trump signed my sanctions legislation in law.
01:47:00.260
He signed it, if I remember right, at 7 p.m. on a Thursday.
01:47:06.960
So, the sanctions legislation worked, and it killed the pipeline.
01:47:11.680
The pipeline lay dormant for over a year, just a hunk of metal at the bottom of the ocean.
01:47:23.240
Putin resumed deep-sea construction at Nord Stream 2 four days later, January 24th.
01:47:28.160
He did so because Biden had foreshadowed weakness on this issue.
01:47:32.160
That foreshadowing was accurate because several months later, Biden formally waived the sanctions on Nord Stream 2 and let Putin complete the pipeline.
01:47:40.940
In January of 2022, I forced a vote on the Senate floor to reimpose sanctions on Nord Stream 2.
01:47:47.300
The week of the vote, President Zelensky in Ukraine publicly called on the Senate,
01:47:54.620
It is the last best hope of stopping Russia from invading Ukraine.
01:47:58.500
At the same time, the government of Poland put out a formal statement from the foreign ministry to the Senate,
01:48:04.880
calling on the Senate to pass my sanctions legislation, and said,
01:48:11.580
The day of the vote, Joe Biden came to Capitol Hill.
01:48:15.540
It's the first time in his presidency he had done that.
01:48:18.240
He went to the Democrat senator's lunch, and he personally lobbied them on this issue.
01:48:23.760
This was his number one issue that he came to lobby them on.
01:48:29.560
Every Democrat had voted with me twice against Nord Stream 2.
01:48:35.500
They voted in favor of Russia, in favor of Putin, and four weeks later, Russia invaded Ukraine.
01:48:43.220
And if Trump had been president, there would be no war in Ukraine.
01:48:45.740
So may I ask, I, of course, disagree with your analysis completely, but I want to be respectful.
01:48:55.540
I've spent the last couple of years on this, and I just respectfully disagree with your analysis.
01:48:59.500
But I don't doubt your sincerity that you believe that Putin is our enemy, that Western Europe should not be allowed to use Russian energy.
01:49:07.700
I mean, you seem to really believe these things.
01:49:09.480
My question is about results, because I think it's relevant to what we're seeing now in Iran.
01:49:14.980
You look back after having you personally voted to send billions and billions and billions of U.S. tax dollars to Zelensky to support his civil service and the war against Russia and all this stuff.
01:49:30.360
So I can say what I did personally, sanctioning Nord Stream 2, worked and prevented a war.
01:49:36.100
And if Trump had still been there, if the sanction had been in effect, there would be no war.
01:49:42.220
But once the war broke out, you voted to fund it to the tune of billions and billions and billions.
01:49:50.120
OK, to be to be clear, what I voted for, I voted for the initial tranche of funding and then I voted against the subsequent one.
01:49:58.660
I haven't been on the full Ukraine, full throated hawk side or the anti from day one.
01:50:05.040
I voted for the initial tranche of funding because I wanted Russia to lose.
01:50:10.780
I think the Biden administration administered it in a horrible way.
01:50:15.960
And I think what they did was actually incoherent because they were funding both sides of the war.
01:50:22.300
And among other things, flooding 100 million dollars to Iran, which was used, among other things, to help the nuclear program, but also to make drones that Russia used to fight.
01:50:32.060
I'm not going to defend the Biden administration.
01:50:35.840
Yeah, the most damaging administration in history.
01:50:38.260
At the end, where we sit now, Russia is stronger.
01:50:43.800
OK, I think it's pretty obvious that it is, but it's certainly not destroyed.
01:50:53.000
Maybe that look that there's no doubt Biden's foreign policy drove Russia into the arms of China.
01:51:04.060
The United States is weaker and much more in debt.
01:51:12.720
Have you questioned any of your previous assumptions?
01:51:25.340
I voted for the first funding of the Ukraine war.
01:51:28.920
And I voted against every subsequent funding stream because it wasn't working.
01:51:32.360
And I looked at what was happening and said, this is not working.
01:51:35.360
And had the money been spent in an intelligent way and not wasted and had it been successful,
01:51:45.140
Look, President Trump campaigned on ending the war.
01:51:47.740
I think he's frustrated because Putin has been less than eager to reach a deal to end the war.
01:51:53.880
You're not going to see another dollar coming from Congress.
01:52:03.800
I think his Oval Office meeting will go down in history as the worst Oval Office meeting of any leader that has ever come to the Oval Office.
01:52:16.300
I think Zelensky spends his time with Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer in The New York Times.
01:52:21.380
And he believed he was going to the Oval Office as a resist figure.
01:52:24.480
And I think he's doing real damage to his country right now.
01:52:30.580
I don't believe, I don't recall ever using the word hero.
01:52:33.400
I will say, look, I'm not, I'm not a Zelensky cheerleader.
01:52:37.040
And I'm not in the business of saying everyone we support has to be a sage and everyone we oppose has to be a villain.
01:52:50.660
Because it would strengthen Russia and Russia's our enemies.
01:52:55.580
Did you support the industrial sabotage against it, blowing it up?
01:53:13.760
In terms of the theories that had been put out there, the idea that Russia blew up their own pipeline never made any sense to me at all.
01:53:22.360
That just I can't even articulate why they would do that.
01:53:29.000
Look, I could see it being in U.S. interest to do that, to blow up Nord Stream 2.
01:53:35.340
But are you and I guess you and so that the Norwegians, the Ukrainians, NATO, whatever.
01:53:42.340
Look, that seems to me, you know, who benefits?
01:53:46.000
And it leads me to think either the Ukrainians blew it up or Ukraine's allies.
01:53:51.380
I don't think Biden did because I just Biden was so weak.
01:54:00.160
I think I think blowing it up is a was a good thing.
01:54:14.720
And you think that the largest act of industrial sabotage in history helped our allies in Western Europe or other NATO fellow NATO members.
01:54:24.220
For some reason, you are really invested in defending Russia.
01:54:31.480
I'm genuinely like I don't get why you're you're so passionate about defending Russia.
01:54:37.380
Actually, I was defending Western Europe, the home of my ancestors.
01:54:41.280
And that, you know, tripling their energy costs and destroying their industrial base.
01:54:46.760
No, not like you just accused me of being an anti-Semite, an isolationist and a Russia lackey.
01:54:51.700
I've not called you a neocon once, which you are.
01:54:59.920
But I haven't called you that because we just said which you are.
01:55:06.040
I guess what I'm saying is you're triggered because I use name calling.
01:55:10.880
And I'm triggered once again that you're calling me a Russia defender when, in fact,
01:55:15.640
And I don't think that you think Putin's our enemy.
01:55:26.680
I think it is a tragedy that your policies, your policies, specifically yours, helped
01:55:32.400
drive Putin into the arms of China, forming a block that's larger than us.
01:55:59.420
I don't think it is in our interest to be at war with Russia.
01:56:11.940
Now, I don't want to go to war with him over that.
01:56:19.120
OK, look, I watched your episode where you went to the Russian grocery store.
01:56:32.460
I'm well, I'm not attacking you when I ask why, because I'm genuinely like I don't get like when you called me.
01:56:44.080
Well, let me just answer yours by saying the United States, the Biden administration, with your help, full support, began this war on Russia in response to their invasion of Ukraine.
01:56:55.160
And one of the things it was they kicked Russia out of SWIFT, of the international financial system.
01:56:58.780
And my first response was this is going to really hurt the US dollar, which it has.
01:57:02.260
And I hope someday we can have a conversation about that.
01:57:04.920
But it's really, really hurt the one thing that we needed, which was to retain dollar supremacy.
01:57:12.060
So I was interested in the in the economic condition.
01:57:14.880
By the way, that's a reasonable point and a serious conversation.
01:57:21.680
I think it's weird that you went to a Russian grocery store and said it was prosperous.
01:57:29.060
No, it was an argument against the efficacy of sanctions, sanctions against Russia, which
01:57:35.940
you casually and enthusiastically imposed, scoring a little moral victory every time, had no
01:57:47.180
And when you and I recommend that you go there and see it, it is way nicer than Washington,
01:57:55.800
I was horrified and angry at my leaders, including you.
01:57:59.360
It's like, I want to live in a country that's nice, with low food costs and no homeless people.
01:58:11.860
So, look, it's a weird argument that you do often, which is, listen, things are crappy
01:58:21.920
So we shouldn't worry about any enemies around the world.
01:58:29.980
And you don't care because you're focused on Iran or Putin.
01:58:33.660
So you believe that I don't care about America.
01:58:35.700
I guess you believe Donald Trump doesn't either.
01:58:38.260
I believe that your focus is way too on other countries.
01:58:44.860
The money that you send abroad could be used here and should be.
01:58:47.680
What money that I send abroad, by the way, I emphatically agree with.
01:58:52.240
I emphatically agree with Donald Trump's, for example, dramatically slashing USAID.
01:58:59.220
I think the only reason we should be deploying that is to benefit U.S. interest, national security
01:59:14.400
So you're in, you love just giving these broad characterizations that are not accurate.
01:59:26.000
Look, I don't want to go to war with Russia, but I don't think they're our friend.
01:59:38.160
And there's a difference between saying that, just like Reagan referred to the Soviet Union
01:59:46.680
Look, my father was imprisoned and tortured in Cuba.
01:59:59.360
And so I think there is a value to, there is nobody who stands up to communist China more
02:00:05.260
in the Senate than I do, because I think they're evil.
02:00:11.240
But I think we have all sorts of tools to stand up to our enemies.
02:00:15.480
And I think China is engaged in a thousand year war against the United States.
02:00:21.440
We're your family in prison in Cuba and China and all this stuff.
02:00:31.420
I, I'm distressed by the moral condition of most leaders around the world.
02:00:37.740
I'm just saying, I wish the focus here was more on the United States.
02:01:00.020
I'm an anti-Semite, an isolationist, a moral relativist.
02:01:05.040
Did you just say world leaders all kill people?
02:01:07.580
I'm saying I'm against killing people in general.
02:01:10.820
And hyperventilating about how Putin was in the KGB or whatever.
02:01:14.400
I just want to serve American interests and pushing into China is not in our interest at all.
02:01:17.700
And you helped do it and you haven't apologized.
02:01:26.360
No, I authored the legislation that shut down Nord Stream 2 that prevented the war.
02:01:30.800
And if Trump had still been in the White House, we would have had the war.
02:01:33.840
And look, the comment you made, the reason things like moral relativism are so dangerous.
02:01:46.400
You look at China, where they've got a million prisoners in concentration camps.
02:01:50.420
You look at Putin, where he's got prisoners in Siberia.
02:01:53.360
He tortures and murders his political opponents.
02:02:07.820
I don't even know what facts you're talking about.
02:02:09.860
I'm not saying that Trump puts people in concentration camps.
02:02:16.880
When you said every world leader kills people, it puts them all-
02:02:19.900
Just want more emphasis on what's happening inside the country.
02:02:22.700
Is there a moral difference between America and our enemies?
02:02:31.360
Why are we a better country founded on better values than China?
02:02:37.760
Because the whole purpose of America is to protect the God-given rights that each person
02:02:48.340
And no other country articulates that in the way that we do.
02:02:58.780
Despite going to a Russian grocery store, despite asking questions about AIPAC, I love
02:03:15.560
And I think his foreign policy has been vigorously protecting that.
02:03:28.600
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