The Tucker Carlson Show - Tucker & Piers Morgan Debate Foreign Aid, Hate Speech, NATO, Gun Control, & Is Zelensky a Dictator？

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00:00:30.640 Pierce Morgan, thank you, sorry.

00:00:32.640 Telling off-color jokes off camera.

00:00:35.060 Thank you so much.

00:00:36.400 No, my pleasure.

00:00:37.080 We are in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.

00:00:38.880 We are.

00:00:39.740 I'm not even going to ask you how you wind up here, but I'm glad to see you.

00:00:42.540 Well, we're both here for the same reason, actually.

00:00:45.940 We've both gone into the oil business.

00:00:47.400 Yes.

00:00:47.940 I never, yeah.

00:00:49.740 So I want to ask you, I want to start just on a very hostile note, okay?

00:00:54.440 Because I feel like that's a good way to frame that.

00:00:55.940 Good.

00:00:56.500 Let's start how we immediately continue.

00:00:58.300 Zelensky is a hero.

00:01:00.320 How could you say that?

00:01:01.340 I don't agree with you about him or Ukraine.

00:01:24.520 I went to interview him in Kyiv.

00:01:27.280 And he's an extraordinary story, obviously, this comedian who becomes president, having

00:01:31.720 played a comedian who was a president in a comedy show, right?

00:01:35.900 And I've seen what you said about it.

00:01:37.260 I mean, what's interesting to me on a bigger picture about Ukraine, Russia, your views,

00:01:41.800 a lot of conservative views in America, is that 30 years ago, there would have been

00:01:45.940 no element of resistance from the conservative side about taking on a Russian dictator who'd

00:01:51.980 invaded a European country.

00:01:53.920 I know it's a lot more complicated.

00:01:55.960 I know the history about a lot of very smart people on, a lot of people you've interviewed.

00:02:00.900 And, you know, I do learn a lot each time I talk to them about all the history, obviously.

00:02:04.820 My brother was a British army colonel.

00:02:06.320 My sister married a British army colonel.

00:02:07.780 Well, they've all engaged in conflicts around the world.

00:02:10.940 And so it's complicated.

00:02:12.620 There's no doubt that on the Russian side, they believe they were provoked into doing this.

00:02:16.080 I know that you have sympathy with that view.

00:02:18.160 There's also no doubt from the Ukrainian side that they believe since the 90s, they've been

00:02:22.540 this sovereign democratic country, albeit not perfect.

00:02:26.300 You think deeply flawed.

00:02:27.640 I think they've been imperfect, trying to improve.

00:02:30.120 And Zelensky has actually, I think, been a force for good, not bad.

00:02:33.380 But ultimately, what's happened now is that you have a situation where, as Donald Trump

00:02:41.420 told me recently, you know, it's just the mowing fields now, where you have thousands

00:02:47.720 of young men being killed, often on a daily basis, both sides.

00:02:52.900 And no one's winning this war, it seems to me.

00:02:55.180 And if anyone is going to win it, it's likely to be Russia, not Ukraine.

00:02:58.700 And then what happens?

00:03:00.660 And that concerns me enormously.

00:03:03.380 If the West allows Putin to just take the land he's taken, what guarantee do we have

00:03:09.400 he won't try and take the rest of Ukraine?

00:03:11.620 He took Crimea.

00:03:12.720 He's back for more.

00:03:13.920 I think he wants the whole of Ukraine.

00:03:15.500 I think he won't stop there if he's allowed to get it.

00:03:17.420 I think he's a pretty ruthless, evil Russian dictator.

00:03:21.160 How are we defining, just to find the term so we can follow the same term, what's a dictator?

00:03:26.160 A dictator to me is somebody, well, I would start by saying you have no respect for democratic

00:03:35.460 norms, a free and fair election.

00:03:38.040 So like an unelected leader would be a dictator?

00:03:40.340 Well, you wouldn't argue that Putin, for example, has free and fair elections.

00:03:43.260 No, I've never, I'm not that interested, actually.

00:03:48.420 Are you not?

00:03:49.580 Not really.

00:03:50.280 It's not my country.

00:03:51.240 I'm interested in my leaders, whether they have the consent of their people.

00:03:54.760 It's not of great interest to me.

00:03:57.360 I do think Putin's way more popular than Joe Biden.

00:04:02.820 To his people.

00:04:03.420 Yes, more popular in Russia than Biden was ever popular.

00:04:05.540 I wouldn't dispute that.

00:04:06.920 But why are you so against Zelensky?

00:04:09.220 No, I'm just trying to understand when you dismiss Putin as a dictator, which is totally

00:04:13.440 fair, I guess.

00:04:14.380 But I'm just trying to understand what you mean by dictator.

00:04:16.480 So the first criterion for dictatorship is that you're not elected.

00:04:20.760 And what else?

00:04:22.300 Because Zelensky's obviously not elected either.

00:04:24.520 Yeah.

00:04:26.000 So I'm just trying to kind of figure out what you're talking about.

00:04:28.320 Well, your comparison with Zelensky and Putin over the last two years, I found baffling.

00:04:32.860 But because you seem to think there's some moral equivalence between the two.

00:04:36.580 And Zelensky hasn't illegally invaded another country.

00:04:40.280 Do you not have a problem with what Putin's done?

00:04:41.760 Well, hold on.

00:04:42.760 I just want to know what a dictator is.

00:04:44.100 I just want to know.

00:04:44.560 I mean, I bet, you know, maybe he's a better guy than Putin or whatever.

00:04:47.560 And you could say some things about one or nothing.

00:04:49.760 But like, if we're just going to define dictator, the first feature of a dictator is he's not

00:04:55.320 elected.

00:04:55.780 So Zelensky's not elected.

00:04:57.460 He's also, well, he's banned a religious denomination.

00:05:00.760 He's murdered his political opponents.

00:05:03.280 He has banned a language group.

00:05:06.940 Those all seem like features of dictatorship to me.

00:05:09.460 Now, he has the support of the British intelligence agencies.

00:05:12.960 That doesn't mean he's not a dictator, though.

00:05:14.980 That sounds like a dictator.

00:05:15.980 I mean, if I gave you a piece of paper and I'm like, here are some qualities of a European

00:05:19.980 leader.

00:05:21.560 You would say, well, that guy, that's not legitimate.

00:05:23.140 That guy's a dictator.

00:05:23.940 I can't support that.

00:05:24.940 But his name's Zelensky.

00:05:26.640 And he was once a comedian.

00:05:27.560 And he does my show.

00:05:28.580 So he's not a dictator.

00:05:29.560 I think it's a dictator.

00:05:30.280 Well, I would argue that if you look at the history of Ukraine since the 90s, since it

00:05:37.140 became a, want of a better phrase, democratic country, as I would say.

00:05:41.240 Well, I mean, by the same criteria you support Putin being popular in his country, I think

00:05:46.280 just under 90 percent of Ukrainians voted for it.

00:05:49.340 You wouldn't dispute that.

00:05:50.560 Well, first of all, the country had a coup sponsored by the United States government,

00:05:56.260 the CIA, in 2014.

00:05:58.240 So everything that happened subsequent to that, I don't think we could call part of

00:06:02.620 the democratic process.

00:06:03.620 But just Zelensky personally is not elected.

00:06:06.960 He's not an elected leader.

00:06:08.380 He rules by force.

00:06:10.080 There's no election that gives him legitimacy.

00:06:12.620 So that's not a defense of Putin.

00:06:14.800 It's merely an attack on the idea that Putin's the only dictator in this contest.

00:06:19.520 How is Zelensky not a dictator?

00:06:20.820 Do you think Putin's a dictator?

00:06:22.900 I guess.

00:06:23.500 Yeah.

00:06:24.140 I mean, I guess.

00:06:25.160 I mean, if I stand up outside the Kremlin and say, down with Vladimir Putin, I'm probably

00:06:28.780 in trouble.

00:06:29.420 That's why I don't live in Russia.

00:06:31.080 I certainly think that Ukraine has had a lot of corruption.

00:06:33.900 No, no.

00:06:34.160 But is Zelensky legitimate?

00:06:35.260 How is he legitimate if he's not elected?

00:06:36.820 How could you support an unelected leader?

00:06:38.480 Well, he's the president of the country.

00:06:39.920 Well, he calls himself that, but there's no election that made him president.

00:06:42.620 He blew past the election and said, oh, there's a war.

00:06:45.100 We can't have an election.

00:06:46.780 We're going to change the constitution.

00:06:48.600 So how is that a legitimate leader?

00:06:50.180 How could you support something like that?

00:06:51.480 That seems, I don't know, like a dictatorship.

00:06:53.600 Well, I would categorize my support for him as supporting him against an illegal invasion

00:06:57.120 by Russia.

00:06:57.840 So this is like why we support Stalin against Hitler, because Hitler's bad, so Stalin must

00:07:03.260 be good.

00:07:03.560 But no, Stalin's also a dictator.

00:07:05.220 So like, how about we just don't support dictators if we're against supporting dictators?

00:07:08.360 Or you could take my position, which is I don't want a dictatorship in my own country

00:07:11.860 because I live in a free country, but we're going to have relations with a country that

00:07:15.220 helps us most up to a certain limit.

00:07:17.160 We're not going to like be allies with Stalin because that's too evil.

00:07:20.400 We're not, you know, Winston Churchill or, you know, FDR or something.

00:07:23.820 We're not going to go that far.

00:07:24.880 But in general, we will deal with countries that help us.

00:07:27.900 But when we start having moral conversations about other countries, then we have to stick

00:07:31.200 by our own standards.

00:07:32.040 And by your standard, you're supporting a dictator.

00:07:33.860 I wonder how you can do that, Piers Morgan.

00:07:35.740 I'm not saying they're morally pure in Ukraine.

00:07:37.960 I'm not saying they're not riddled with corruption.

00:07:39.760 But how is he not a dictator?

00:07:40.620 No, no.

00:07:40.860 Here's my point to you.

00:07:41.760 My defense of them-

00:07:42.620 Bloodthirsty dictator.

00:07:44.080 Bloodthirsty dictator.

00:07:45.220 My defense of them is based on the illegal invasion by Russia.

00:07:49.060 You and I can argue about whether Russia was goaded and provoked into doing that.

00:07:52.660 I do not think anything justifies what they actually did.

00:07:55.940 Okay.

00:07:56.540 That's a totally fair position.

00:07:57.580 I mean, I guess I disagree, sort of, but I don't think what you're saying is crazy

00:08:01.920 at all.

00:08:02.180 But the point I was going to-

00:08:02.600 How is that more illegal than running a country without an election?

00:08:05.740 And banning a religious denomination?

00:08:07.460 I don't understand that.

00:08:08.580 So yeah, you could certainly say Putin did a lot of bad things.

00:08:11.280 I would readily agree to that to the extent I understand it.

00:08:14.920 But we're supporting my government and your government particularly are supporting this

00:08:19.260 dictator in Ukraine who's oppressing Christians, who is banning people's native language and

00:08:25.520 books in their native language.

00:08:26.700 He's a book burner.

00:08:28.520 And like, that's totally cool because we hate Putin.

00:08:30.600 That's not totally cool, is it?

00:08:31.700 So would you just let Putin take Ukraine?

00:08:33.900 I would say let's have an election in Ukraine and let the Ukrainian people elect their own

00:08:37.600 leader and get rid of the midget dictator who now oppresses them, Zelensky.

00:08:41.960 And I would definitely not support a guy who's not elected as a democratic figure because

00:08:47.480 by definition, he's not.

00:08:49.500 By definition.

00:08:50.400 I don't care who his enemies are.

00:08:51.760 He's not worth calling a beacon of democracy if he doesn't even have- why not have an election

00:08:57.800 in Ukraine today?

00:08:58.960 Because we've got a war.

00:08:59.820 We had elections in our country during the Second World War.

00:09:02.640 So did you.

00:09:04.680 Like, why not hold him to democratic standards?

00:09:07.080 I've got no problem with saying he should have an election.

00:09:09.100 What about banning a Christian denomination?

00:09:11.240 Yeah, I don't agree with any of those things.

00:09:12.880 Well, how could we ever support that?

00:09:14.680 Because ultimately-

00:09:15.760 We're paying for that.

00:09:16.360 Because ultimately we have to make a calculation about whether we're happy with Russia invading

00:09:20.360 what is a sovereign European democratic country.

00:09:23.840 Well, it was not a sovereign country.

00:09:25.820 It was controlled by the United States.

00:09:27.040 Well, they installed their government in a coup in 2014.

00:09:29.580 It's a very puppet of the United States and Great Britain.

00:09:31.520 But they are not sovereign.

00:09:32.800 Do you think they're a democracy?

00:09:34.500 Well, their leader's not elected.

00:09:35.620 So by definition, they're not a democracy.

00:09:37.820 It may be a great place to vacation or they've got, you know, we're getting a lot of money

00:09:41.140 from, you know, defense deals or they've got pretty women.

00:09:43.300 Lots of great things you could say about the Ukrainians.

00:09:44.960 They're actually great people from what I can tell.

00:09:46.540 I know a bunch of them.

00:09:47.260 They're awesome.

00:09:48.540 But they're definitely not a democracy.

00:09:50.240 So should Putin just take the land?

00:09:52.320 No.

00:09:52.980 So what happens?

00:09:54.520 I don't know.

00:09:55.060 We should stop paying for the slaughter of the entire Ukrainian population.

00:09:58.240 Because they don't know.

00:09:59.220 I mean, either he's allowed to take it or he isn't.

00:10:01.680 Either we now say, yes, you take it.

00:10:02.960 Why is it up to us?

00:10:04.000 I don't understand.

00:10:04.860 We're not in...

00:10:05.240 Well, who else can stop it?

00:10:06.060 Well, I don't know.

00:10:07.000 I mean, when, you know, Congo invades its neighbors, like it's not axiomatic that we

00:10:13.420 should be involved.

00:10:13.980 Well, when Saddam invaded Kuwait, why did America go and support that?

00:10:18.020 Because there's oil here.

00:10:19.100 Did you support that?

00:10:20.300 Well, I was in college and drunk.

00:10:21.840 Did you basically agree with it?

00:10:23.520 Yeah.

00:10:23.780 I mean, I had a lot of dumb ideas.

00:10:25.100 Storming Norman Schwarzkopf?

00:10:25.980 I thought it was okay to drink beer in the morning.

00:10:28.440 Do you think looking back at it, was it right to do what America did with the allies?

00:10:31.980 British were there too?

00:10:32.800 I don't know.

00:10:34.100 Expelling from Kuwait?

00:10:36.100 It wasn't a NATO country.

00:10:38.100 Well, that was...

00:10:38.860 I mean, that's the kind of war that in theory I would support.

00:10:41.800 You say, we have, you know, energy interests in this region.

00:10:45.140 We want to keep it stable.

00:10:46.420 When you start getting theoretical, like we're preserving democracy by supporting dictators.

00:10:50.340 Well, we take energy from Ukraine, though.

00:10:52.140 There's an energy component to that.

00:10:54.260 Maybe.

00:10:54.840 I don't see that...

00:10:55.620 What I'm thinking is that the...

00:10:57.480 What I don't like is the moral overlay because it's fatuous and fraudulent.

00:11:00.820 He's not...

00:11:01.540 This is not a democratic country.

00:11:02.840 He is a dictator.

00:11:04.080 We've supported many dictators.

00:11:05.300 We've supported Mobutu in Zaire, which no longer exists because he was a bulwark against

00:11:10.340 the Soviets, we thought, and a million others.

00:11:11.780 No, but you've already said that you would support the expulsion of Saddam from Kuwait.

00:11:16.440 I don't know that I would.

00:11:17.400 Led by America.

00:11:17.980 Well, you just said you did, right?

00:11:19.640 So...

00:11:19.840 No, I said I was drunk in college.

00:11:21.240 I haven't really thought...

00:11:21.940 I said, but theoretically, you could make the case...

00:11:24.180 Because they had energy.

00:11:25.160 We need sheep energy.

00:11:26.340 We're going to go to war to preserve sheep energy.

00:11:27.940 You know, that's not a crazy thing to say.

00:11:29.400 Maybe I could support that.

00:11:30.380 Right.

00:11:30.660 So what's the difference either between that and what's happened with Russia and Ukraine?

00:11:33.780 Well, because...

00:11:34.360 We need Ukraine's energy.

00:11:35.860 We need Ukraine's wheat.

00:11:37.680 We do.

00:11:38.960 25% of the world's wheat comes out of Ukraine.

00:11:40.760 I'm aware, which is why you probably don't want to kill all of its farmers and sell all

00:11:44.980 of its farmland, which is what we've allowed to happen.

00:11:48.100 Zelensky...

00:11:48.620 We're not killing them.

00:11:49.500 The Russians are.

00:11:50.980 Well, no.

00:11:51.660 This war wouldn't exist if it weren't for the money and arms that we're sending to Ukraine.

00:11:55.560 It would have been over in one day.

00:11:56.620 It never would have started if we hadn't said...

00:11:58.440 When you say over, what do you mean?

00:11:59.460 What would have happened?

00:12:00.020 I don't think...

00:12:01.860 I think it's very clear, and I don't know that anyone would disagree with this, that

00:12:04.600 Russia would not have invaded eastern Ukraine if the Biden administration hadn't sent Kamala

00:12:09.780 Harris to the Munich Security Conference in February of 2022 to say to Zelensky, on camera,

00:12:15.600 we're going to make you a NATO country, meaning we're going to put American NATO arms on the

00:12:20.260 Russian border.

00:12:21.780 Like, you would not allow Chinese...

00:12:24.100 Your country probably would, but you shouldn't allow Chinese missiles in Scotland peering over

00:12:29.420 Hadrian's Wall aimed at London.

00:12:31.800 You'd be like, no, you can't do that on our border.

00:12:35.300 And the Russians are like, no, you can't do that on our border.

00:12:37.620 And we're like, shut up, you're Russian.

00:12:38.960 You have no right to determine what happens on your border.

00:12:41.540 Piss off.

00:12:43.360 But if...

00:12:44.140 That actually happened.

00:12:45.700 But my point is, if the defense of expelling Saddam Hussein from Kuwait was that we have

00:12:51.480 energy interests in that country...

00:12:53.400 Well, no one ever said that.

00:12:53.840 And therefore, we should kick him out.

00:12:54.920 But that's obviously what we all knew.

00:12:56.220 And it was done very quickly and competently by General Norman Schwarzkopf.

00:13:00.500 And it was great, great military operation.

00:13:02.820 But surely the principle and ideology is not different.

00:13:05.740 And what's interesting is...

00:13:06.680 I don't know.

00:13:07.200 Well, every Republican...

00:13:08.880 Every Republican...

00:13:09.940 They're idiots.

00:13:10.880 They support the Ukraine.

00:13:12.180 Hang on.

00:13:12.940 No, I mean, every Republican in 91 would have supported that conflict.

00:13:16.280 Well, whether or not Republican members of the Senate support something is immaterial.

00:13:21.280 It's my support of it, I can promise you.

00:13:22.680 Well, every Republican voter, I think, would have supported it.

00:13:24.900 Whereas what's interesting...

00:13:25.920 35 years ago, I'm just saying...

00:13:26.700 So what's changed is a lot of Republican supporters now, conservatives in America,

00:13:31.000 are against supporting Ukraine anymore.

00:13:33.520 And I'm curious about that change in what has been, what, 35 years.

00:13:38.040 There's been a real sea change.

00:13:39.440 And it may be because Americans are, understandably, war-weary.

00:13:44.200 They're fed up with spending a lot of money on foreign wars, foreign conflicts.

00:13:47.740 There's a good argument America hasn't really won a foreign war since World War II.

00:13:52.480 You know, you look at, from Vietnam onwards, endless quagmires, endless problems, Iraq, Afghanistan,

00:13:57.820 and so on and so on.

00:13:59.200 And I look at what's happened in Ukraine, and I'm just looking at it pragmatically.

00:14:03.460 Secondly, do we just let a Russian, do we let Russia, led at the moment by Vladimir Putin,

00:14:10.200 who I would categorize as a dictator, do we let him just take what he wants?

00:14:15.340 Even if he uses it and dresses it all up as, I'm doing this because I fear about NATO encroachment,

00:14:20.940 which may well be his reasoning.

00:14:22.960 May well be his reasoning.

00:14:23.880 But many people think it's not his reasoning.

00:14:25.920 Okay.

00:14:26.480 Many people think.

00:14:27.660 If I'm just saying, like, why would you want to put U.S. missiles on Russia's border?

00:14:32.020 I don't understand.

00:14:32.700 Because it's so obviously unacceptable for any sovereign nation to tolerate that.

00:14:36.200 Here's the other part of the argument.

00:14:37.680 He has nuclear weapons.

00:14:38.680 Why would we want that?

00:14:39.460 A lot of people, we have nuclear weapons too.

00:14:41.920 A lot of the argument.

00:14:43.280 You guys have nuclear weapons?

00:14:44.340 Yeah.

00:14:45.240 We do.

00:14:46.300 Yes, we have nuclear weapons.

00:14:48.180 Why?

00:14:49.160 Why?

00:14:49.780 Nuclear deterrent.

00:14:51.460 Great Britain has nuclear weapons?

00:14:52.720 Yes, we do.

00:14:54.100 Do you think that's a good idea?

00:14:55.240 Yes, absolutely.

00:14:56.740 You know why?

00:14:57.220 You're freaking me out.

00:14:58.420 If Ukraine had nuclear weapons, they wouldn't have been invaded.

00:15:00.560 Do you agree on that?

00:15:03.700 We told them to give up their nuclear deterrent.

00:15:05.680 They wouldn't have been invaded if the West hadn't said, we're going to use you as a staging

00:15:10.380 ground for intimidating Russia.

00:15:12.200 Like, why would we want to do that?

00:15:13.700 Why not just allow?

00:15:14.900 What we've done is pushed Russia into the Chinese orbit.

00:15:16.720 And many people would say.

00:15:17.700 How does that help us?

00:15:18.420 Many people in that region say, actually, what's happened to Ukraine is precisely why they

00:15:23.600 should have been in NATO.

00:15:24.520 Because if they had been in NATO, Putin wouldn't have invaded them.

00:15:27.400 Okay.

00:15:28.340 And also they say.

00:15:29.260 Many people say that.

00:15:29.980 Also say, if we hadn't collectively basically bullied Ukraine into giving up their nuclear

00:15:35.060 deterrent, he wouldn't have done it either.

00:15:37.000 Because they would have had a nuclear weapon to defend themselves.

00:15:38.900 This is super crazy.

00:15:39.880 Is it crazy?

00:15:40.600 Yes, it is.

00:15:41.180 Crazier than your theories?

00:15:42.100 Well, actually, I don't think, I mean, I have a million theories, but these are not

00:15:48.180 among them.

00:15:49.000 It's not a theory to say that Russia moved into eastern Ukraine because the United States

00:15:53.600 wouldn't give up on pushing for Ukraine admission into NATO when NATO did not want Ukraine.

00:15:59.040 But there's also the criteria for admission.

00:16:01.280 But I think you're only giving half a picture.

00:16:03.420 I'm not oblivious to that, but I would add this component to it, which is also not surely

00:16:08.360 beyond the realms of fantasy.

00:16:09.640 That Vladimir Putin knows that a lot of that part of eastern Ukraine, they still speak

00:16:13.580 Russian.

00:16:14.360 He has resented the breakup of the Soviet Union, famously, and that actually he wanted

00:16:19.920 to take back land that he believes should belong to Russia, should belong to Russia.

00:16:25.080 Okay.

00:16:25.720 In general, possessions are overrated, but there are some things you really would not want

00:16:31.000 stolen.

00:16:31.940 And to me, family shotguns, including a whole bunch of them I got from my father, are at

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00:18:12.720 Okay.

00:18:13.260 Did you accept that?

00:18:14.200 I think it's true of, look, I'm not an expert.

00:18:16.480 I've interviewed Putin.

00:18:17.700 You know, I've been there a couple of times.

00:18:19.420 I don't speak Russian, so I hope I don't get over my skis and pretend to know things that

00:18:23.460 I don't.

00:18:23.960 But what's very obvious is they have an interest and have for over 300 years in controlling

00:18:29.980 Crimea, where their fleet is based.

00:18:33.480 They had a referendum in Crimea.

00:18:34.820 The people of Crimea are Russian and want to remain part of the Russian Federation.

00:18:39.720 So he didn't take Crimea.

00:18:42.320 It's Russian.

00:18:43.340 It's filled with Russians.

00:18:44.140 They had a referendum that nobody disputes.

00:18:46.500 People should be allowed to choose their own government.

00:18:48.600 That's the basic precept of democracy.

00:18:50.140 But he did take Crimea.

00:18:51.340 Okay.

00:18:52.100 Should people be allowed to choose their own government?

00:18:55.720 Yes.

00:18:56.540 Okay.

00:18:57.060 So the people of Crimea voted overwhelmingly to align with the Russian government.

00:19:00.980 So that's illegitimate.

00:19:01.840 Why?

00:19:02.580 When did they do that?

00:19:03.400 Right after the coup in 15, I think.

00:19:08.500 So after they'd been invaded.

00:19:10.760 Why do you think so many Russians vote for Putin in Russia?

00:19:14.760 I don't think it was invaded.

00:19:16.140 Russia has controlled Crimea for 300 years.

00:19:19.680 Yeah, but it wasn't.

00:19:20.520 It is.

00:19:21.100 There are Russians.

00:19:21.700 It wasn't Russians.

00:19:23.800 And in the same way that that, you say, the people of Crimea voted overwhelmingly in favor.

00:19:28.180 Of course they did.

00:19:28.800 They would have been killed if they hadn't.

00:19:30.220 Same way as in Russia.

00:19:30.960 In a secret ballot?

00:19:31.820 The same way in Russia.

00:19:32.680 Wait, wait, wait.

00:19:33.120 Hold on.

00:19:33.540 So you're saying that the election was conducted under duress and people's votes were known to the Russian government?

00:19:40.180 I don't think that's true.

00:19:41.060 I think it was a secret ballot.

00:19:41.860 I'm saying it's exactly the same way that people in Russia vote for Putin.

00:19:45.440 You think it's an overwhelming show of support for him.

00:19:47.720 A lot of it is driven by fear.

00:19:49.040 Okay, that may or may not be true.

00:19:50.640 I don't know, but the only measure we have of popular consent is an election.

00:19:55.580 And when conducted by secret ballot, if we think it's not being, it's not the 2020 election, it's like kind of a legitimate election, that's what we go with.

00:20:02.160 Have you ever met anybody who believes that if a free and fair referendum were held once again in Ukraine, that Ukraine would vote, rather than Crimeans would vote to align with Zelensky?

00:20:19.040 The Zelensky government in Kiev.

00:20:20.280 I don't think so.

00:20:21.280 It was 97%.

00:20:22.380 Look, I'm just saying, self-determination is the core idea in democracy.

00:20:26.920 They don't have it in Ukraine because they haven't had an election.

00:20:29.940 They ignore the election because it's run by a dictator called Zelensky.

00:20:33.920 If you wanted to say he's a dictator, that's fine.

00:20:36.200 You support a dictator.

00:20:37.420 The U.S., your government has supported many dictators.

00:20:39.280 So is mine.

00:20:40.180 That's kind of a fact of life.

00:20:41.460 There are very few democratically elected leaders.

00:20:43.060 Sometimes even our leaders aren't really democratically elected, as you know.

00:20:46.240 I just don't like the moral bullshit that attaches to all of this.

00:20:50.140 That's fair enough.

00:20:50.500 Where we tell the population, we're on the side of democracy, and he's Winston Churchill.

00:20:54.320 I don't claim it's Mother Teresa against Hitler.

00:20:57.220 No, but you have, though.

00:20:58.500 You've like, he's a marvelous person.

00:21:00.400 I like him.

00:21:01.200 I'm allowed to, aren't I?

00:21:02.640 I guess you like dictators.

00:21:03.720 I've never said of Putin, he's a marvelous person because, like, it's a little dictator-y for me.

00:21:09.140 I think he's really smart.

00:21:10.460 I admire what he's done to Russia, but I'm not going to sniff his jock because he's kind of a dictator.

00:21:15.380 But you're like, oh, I love that Zelensky.

00:21:17.720 He's so great.

00:21:18.780 I do like him.

00:21:19.760 How can you like a man who's a dictator?

00:21:21.960 I don't think he's a dictator.

00:21:23.180 In what sense?

00:21:24.760 He's not elected.

00:21:26.140 He rules by force.

00:21:27.340 He rules with guns.

00:21:28.760 He kills his opponents.

00:21:30.500 He's assassinated a ton of people, including, you know, I know someone he tried to assassinate.

00:21:35.360 Fact.

00:21:36.520 How is that worth supporting?

00:21:38.700 Do you feel a little guilty for supporting someone like that?

00:21:40.300 No, I don't.

00:21:41.220 Really?

00:21:41.740 No, in fact, I think we should try and do more to help him win.

00:21:44.780 How rich do you think he's gotten from this war?

00:21:47.100 I have no idea.

00:21:48.060 Does it bother you that he's gotten rich?

00:21:49.780 He's not as rich as Vladimir Putin.

00:21:51.980 Well, I mean, if all comparisons are to Putin, then all bets are off.

00:21:54.900 Putin is financially raped and pillaged his country for 30.

00:21:58.160 Maybe.

00:21:58.680 I don't know.

00:21:59.440 Maybe.

00:21:59.980 I don't know.

00:22:00.680 I'm not as an accountant.

00:22:01.820 Okay, let's see.

00:22:02.380 He has.

00:22:02.600 He's got a personal net worth of 100 billion rubles, whatever it is.

00:22:06.200 I don't know how we would know that, but great.

00:22:07.560 He does.

00:22:08.740 He's evil.

00:22:09.720 We'll stick with that.

00:22:11.400 But the question is, why would you support, personally, a dictator who's gotten rich on

00:22:17.700 a war in his country, who bans a Christian denomination, and who murders his political

00:22:21.640 opponents?

00:22:21.740 Would he literally only be the leader of his country?

00:22:23.060 Does that bother you at all?

00:22:23.960 Well, he'd be leader of his country for two years.

00:22:25.880 He's done a lot of oppression in two years.

00:22:29.460 He didn't get rich on corruption in two years.

00:22:31.620 But can I ask you, when you talk to Zelensky, do you say, why don't you have an election?

00:22:35.940 Why don't you stop murdering your political opponents?

00:22:37.720 Why don't you let people practice their Christian denomination?

00:22:40.460 Why don't you let Russian speakers speak Russian and read Russian books?

00:22:43.940 That's what non-dictators do.

00:22:45.360 Did you say any of that to Putin?

00:22:46.940 Of course not.

00:22:47.700 Why not?

00:22:48.240 Because I'm not his friend.

00:22:49.440 I don't have the relationship with Putin that you have with Zelensky.

00:22:51.620 I didn't tweet after my interview, you're a very handsome man.

00:22:54.440 I love you.

00:22:55.200 I love you.

00:22:56.080 I didn't call him a very handsome man.

00:22:57.360 I think you did.

00:22:58.560 I don't think he's a very handsome man.

00:23:00.320 Hot, hot is maybe what you said.

00:23:01.860 I don't think I called him hot.

00:23:02.880 Okay.

00:23:03.140 Well, you said I really admire you, and I think you're great.

00:23:04.580 But you're asking me to ask all the questions of Zelensky.

00:23:06.580 You didn't ask Putin.

00:23:07.100 Because he's a personal friend of yours.

00:23:08.500 I'm not friends with Putin.

00:23:09.340 I'm just a guy who showed up.

00:23:12.980 I admire him.

00:23:14.560 You can't fool me, Piers Morgan.

00:23:16.140 You can't miscategorize me.

00:23:17.340 I'm not a friend of his.

00:23:18.520 I've only met him once.

00:23:19.620 But I do admire his fortitude as a leader.

00:23:22.580 I love the fact he stayed in Kiev when the Russians went in.

00:23:25.340 He could have fled.

00:23:26.100 Many would have done that position.

00:23:27.480 Everyone thought the Russians would win in a few days.

00:23:29.280 Yeah, I agree.

00:23:30.380 I do admire the fortitude that he showed as a leader.

00:23:33.200 Those characteristics I like.

00:23:35.360 I think you called him a magnificent leader.

00:23:37.680 In fact, I'm pretty sure.

00:23:38.440 I think he has been.

00:23:39.800 Okay.

00:23:40.040 So I'm just asking, since I didn't call Putin a magnificent leader at all.

00:23:45.000 But nor did you ask him any of the questions that you want me to ask.

00:23:47.300 I didn't feel like I didn't want to do what everybody does, which is you're so bad, Vladimir Putin, meaning I'm so good.

00:23:53.700 I'm going to give you a moral extra.

00:23:54.860 I'm like, whatever.

00:23:55.220 It's your country.

00:23:56.220 Country's actually doing great.

00:23:57.380 I was super impressed by Moscow.

00:23:58.920 I'd recommend it to everybody just because it's beautiful and orderly, which I like.

00:24:02.480 I'm not moving there.

00:24:03.500 They don't have freedom of speech, which is a prerequisite for me.

00:24:05.500 But I didn't feel like that was my job.

00:24:09.200 I just want to hear what the guy says.

00:24:10.340 We're fighting a war against him, and no one's heard him speak.

00:24:12.160 Why do you believe him?

00:24:13.960 I don't know that I do.

00:24:15.160 Do you not?

00:24:15.640 I mean, you believe his reasoning.

00:24:16.720 I believe something.

00:24:17.560 You believe the reasoning for the war.

00:24:19.460 You're fully all in on the Russian.

00:24:20.580 Well, there's kind of no question about that.

00:24:21.860 Well, there's a lot of questions about that.

00:24:22.900 I don't really think so.

00:24:23.860 I don't think any informed person.

00:24:25.820 I mean, Bill Burns.

00:24:27.460 Only 10% of people in eastern Ukraine actually want Russia to take them over.

00:24:31.880 Okay.

00:24:32.240 I don't know how we know that, but I believe that.

00:24:33.780 But it doesn't—

00:24:34.400 It's a poll.

00:24:34.900 Same poll you—you know, you're quoting me about Crimea.

00:24:37.560 So that wasn't a poll.

00:24:38.380 It was an election.

00:24:39.000 The vast—

00:24:39.380 Which are critical to democracy.

00:24:40.640 I don't know if you knew that.

00:24:41.520 But the vast—

00:24:42.040 Which are a magnificent leader.

00:24:43.660 An election is a poll.

00:24:45.500 They're called polls.

00:24:46.420 An election is a poll.

00:24:47.320 A poll is not an election.

00:24:48.820 Right?

00:24:49.160 So there are different criteria for polls.

00:24:50.540 Well, a poll can be an election, yes.

00:24:52.780 Now we're getting metaphysical.

00:24:53.780 But I would just say, if you believe in democracy, you believe in elections.

00:24:58.800 If you have a leader who's not elected, he's not a democratic leader, he's a dictator.

00:25:02.420 Which is, okay, that's fine.

00:25:03.780 It's a foreign country.

00:25:04.840 I wouldn't call any dictator magnificent, just because it seems a little—

00:25:08.120 How could Zelensky have an election in the middle of a war, out of interest?

00:25:11.300 I don't know.

00:25:11.640 How did Franklin Roosevelt do that in the middle of the Second World War?

00:25:15.320 How did he do that?

00:25:16.580 Because no one had invaded America.

00:25:19.520 Okay.

00:25:20.300 Well, but how about the—

00:25:21.280 So the people could actually vote.

00:25:22.580 Well, there are people—

00:25:23.500 You've got half of Ukraine.

00:25:24.780 There are people making billions of dollars in business in Kiev today.

00:25:28.620 How about the non-occupied parts of the country?

00:25:31.660 Just make a good-faith effort to have an election.

00:25:33.580 But he doesn't want to because I think he's pretty darn unpopular because he is a lackey

00:25:37.240 of Western powers who sold his country out.

00:25:40.000 And Ukrainians know perfectly well that he's getting rich.

00:25:42.940 And so is the entire leadership.

00:25:44.840 I was in Corsha with France two weeks ago, which is probably the richest town in Europe.

00:25:49.140 It's a ski town in France near Geneva.

00:25:51.380 And everybody at the Hermes store was Ukrainian, using my money to buy $100,000 handbags.

00:25:57.440 Nobody seems to care about that.

00:25:58.880 I care because that's not freedom fighting.

00:26:01.520 That's grifting.

00:26:02.380 That's theft.

00:26:03.360 And everybody in Europe knows that.

00:26:04.680 And you know that too.

00:26:05.320 Go to Romania.

00:26:06.480 All their high-end car dealerships are sold out because Ukrainians have bought the car.

00:26:10.200 So to be clear, when—

00:26:10.920 What the hell is this?

00:26:11.700 Okay, well, so when Putin invaded Ukraine, you'd have given him what he wants?

00:26:15.900 Take whatever you want?

00:26:18.660 Well, as I've said, and I really mean it from my heart.

00:26:21.440 I mean, I have no kind of—I'm not getting rich from this, so I'm saying what I sincerely believe.

00:26:26.720 Which is pushing Ukraine to join NATO when NATO doesn't want Ukraine.

00:26:32.440 There's no strategic reason, no actual reason to have Ukraine in it or to have NATO at all.

00:26:36.460 We shouldn't have NATO at all.

00:26:37.940 That's preposterous.

00:26:39.560 What's the point of NATO?

00:26:40.880 To keep peace.

00:26:41.600 The Soviets are invading Western Europe.

00:26:43.200 Oh, well, it's been 35 years since they existed.

00:26:44.880 Actually, to keep peace.

00:26:46.940 How's that worked?

00:26:47.880 To keep peace?

00:26:48.520 We now have the bloodiest war in 80 years in the middle of Europe because of NATO.

00:26:54.700 So how's this peacekeeping activity?

00:26:55.920 Or you could argue, as many people do, that actually the reason is because Ukraine wasn't in NATO.

00:27:01.300 Had it been, Putin wouldn't have invaded.

00:27:04.040 That's a super—this is like an addiction.

00:27:06.340 And I've been through addiction, so I'm not judging at all.

00:27:07.960 But it's like, I feel really shitty.

00:27:10.180 I've got to have a glass of vodka to feel better.

00:27:13.300 Are you mocking my mental health?

00:27:15.520 Yes.

00:27:16.520 But I'm also saying that I've lived this, so I know what it feels like.

00:27:19.840 It's the thing that is killing you.

00:27:22.440 It's truly killing you, whether it's NATO or vodka.

00:27:25.100 You become convinced it's saving you.

00:27:26.900 So you wake up hungover and you're like, oh, I feel so bad.

00:27:29.740 Give me a screwdriver.

00:27:31.040 And if you're a screwdriver, you feel better.

00:27:32.140 And you don't realize that you're starting the cycle again.

00:27:35.220 Would Putin have invaded Ukraine if it had been a member of NATO?

00:27:37.840 No, he wouldn't have done.

00:27:39.400 Because then America would have been obliged to have his boss.

00:27:41.060 But he would never—here's what I know.

00:27:42.860 For a fact, Putin said this for 20 years.

00:27:47.200 Ukraine cannot be a member of NATO.

00:27:49.840 NATO, they will not accept that anymore that we would accept Chinese missiles in Tijuana.

00:27:55.700 Or you would accept Sri Lankan missiles in Glasgow.

00:27:59.260 You're just not going to accept that.

00:27:59.960 NATO is a defensive organization.

00:28:02.620 How is it defensive?

00:28:03.520 Because it has never acted proactively, aggressively.

00:28:06.160 Where were you when the Yugoslavia war was going on?

00:28:08.160 And they were bombing the shit out of Christians in Yugoslavia.

00:28:10.820 Do you remember that?

00:28:11.480 Yes.

00:28:11.680 That was pretty offensive.

00:28:12.600 NATO has always operated in a defensive capacity.

00:28:15.520 How would—really?

00:28:16.740 Yes.

00:28:17.140 That's how they created Kosovo?

00:28:19.560 Defensively?

00:28:19.940 It was defensive.

00:28:20.780 Oh, it was?

00:28:21.560 Yes, it was.

00:28:21.980 Who was the aggressor there?

00:28:24.340 Oh, you know.

00:28:26.220 My brother-in-law was literally there.

00:28:28.160 Just admit it.

00:28:28.460 Just admit it.

00:28:29.040 What you're saying is insane.

00:28:30.340 It's not insane.

00:28:31.340 They could—

00:28:31.820 NATO has never actually acted unilaterally aggressively.

00:28:34.180 Okay, so the Sovietian classes—

00:28:35.400 It's never attacked anybody without being attacked.

00:28:37.700 It's always been defensive.

00:28:38.860 When—okay.

00:28:39.540 Who in Yugoslavia attacked NATO?

00:28:43.080 Look.

00:28:44.200 Just note.

00:28:44.800 Here's the point where you just admit defeat.

00:28:46.180 Bow your head and be like—

00:28:47.040 You know what?

00:28:48.080 I bow before superior knowledge.

00:28:49.760 I totally got this wrong.

00:28:51.220 I can't believe I had such a silly idea.

00:28:52.860 I'm sorry.

00:28:53.020 Well, you think nice, good guys in Yugoslavia—

00:28:55.160 I'm not saying they're nice, good guys.

00:28:56.040 I'm just saying that was not a defensive action.

00:28:57.940 That was an offensive action.

00:28:59.020 Bill Clinton's like, I don't like what you're doing.

00:29:00.820 I'm going to use NATO to kill you.

00:29:01.920 And he did, and then created Kosovo as a NATO base.

00:29:03.800 Because they were absolute genocidal maniacs.

00:29:06.480 Well, they may have been naughty.

00:29:07.240 I'm not defending their behavior.

00:29:08.200 But that's what they were being defended against.

00:29:10.280 Who are we defending?

00:29:11.580 The Yugoslavians.

00:29:12.520 They were being pillaged and raped and murdered.

00:29:14.600 By other Yugoslavians?

00:29:16.280 Yes.

00:29:17.360 Okay.

00:29:19.760 This is getting intense.

00:29:21.360 NATO is a defensive organization.

00:29:22.880 You can say it all you want.

00:29:24.080 Just like you can say Zelensky's a beacon of democracy when he's not elected and he's

00:29:28.500 banning parts of Christianity, but he's a dictator.

00:29:30.920 So just to be clear—

00:29:31.660 And it's better just to be honest about what things are.

00:29:32.960 Just to be clear, you would have let Putin take what he wants.

00:29:36.420 Because what's the alternative?

00:29:37.880 When he invaded Ukraine.

00:29:39.120 So I try and deal, especially as I get older, in the world of reality and achievable goals.

00:29:44.600 And here's the reality.

00:29:46.580 Russia is a nuclear-armed power.

00:29:48.600 It's the largest country on Earth by land mass.

00:29:51.440 It's also the remnants of a global empire.

00:29:54.160 So they have a sense of themselves as a global player.

00:29:56.500 And they are, because of energy.

00:29:58.640 And resources in general.

00:30:00.100 Uranium.

00:30:00.560 I mean, they have a lot of resources the world needs.

00:30:02.700 So they're a real country.

00:30:03.900 They're not Afghanistan.

00:30:05.380 You can't just tell them what to do.

00:30:06.700 Get in line, bitch.

00:30:07.760 They're not going to accept that, okay?

00:30:09.860 So they have said, since the fall of the Soviet Union, you cannot have NATO on our border.

00:30:15.000 Because it's a critical national interest of ours.

00:30:18.120 So, unless you want to risk nuclear war, which we are now doing, you can't move NATO to their border, whether you want to or not.

00:30:24.540 That's just a fact.

00:30:25.380 And if you do, you're going to get a war.

00:30:26.880 We've known that since the fall of the Soviet Union.

00:30:28.520 And we promised not to do it.

00:30:29.760 And we tried to bring—he asked to be in NATO in 2000.

00:30:34.120 He asked George W. Bush to be in NATO.

00:30:35.360 Nobody can test that.

00:30:36.640 This evil dictator who wants to invade Liechtenstein asked to be in NATO.

00:30:40.820 Why wouldn't we let him in NATO?

00:30:42.600 Why did Condi Rice say, well, it can't be in NATO?

00:30:45.120 Why do we have morons like Condi Rice in our U.S. government?

00:30:47.560 I don't know.

00:30:48.120 So when he invaded, though, what would you let him do?

00:30:53.880 We're in a hall of mirrors now.

00:30:56.060 Look, not really.

00:30:56.980 Okay.

00:30:57.160 We're in a very clear moral moment in history where Vladimir Putin invades Ukraine.

00:31:02.980 It is a European country.

00:31:04.300 And we side with the dictator.

00:31:05.400 It has been independent from Russia since the mid-'90s.

00:31:07.800 And we've funded his secret service since they assassinated people.

00:31:08.540 Yeah, but what do you do?

00:31:09.400 Do you let him take it?

00:31:09.800 There's nothing moral about this.

00:31:10.680 Look, in the real world, we do things we can't achieve.

00:31:14.280 And if we can't achieve something, we don't try and do it because millions will die as we're watching.

00:31:18.080 So what do you let him do, then?

00:31:20.660 Well, you start with a realistic understanding of the limits of your power, which is all adults have to do.

00:31:26.200 My neighbors may offend me.

00:31:28.340 I want them to turn down the music.

00:31:30.180 I can't just go over there and shoot them.

00:31:31.860 I just can't.

00:31:32.700 It's against the law, and I'll pay a penalty if I do that.

00:31:35.040 So I have to negotiate with them.

00:31:36.820 Will you please turn down the music?

00:31:37.880 Shut up.

00:31:38.360 No, please do it.

00:31:39.400 If they won't, maybe threaten them.

00:31:40.800 Like, I live in the material real world.

00:31:43.380 Right.

00:31:43.660 But once actually he's invaded, what do you do?

00:31:46.500 Then you have to decide, like, is it worth it?

00:31:48.240 Is it worth it?

00:31:48.900 So that's interesting to me.

00:31:49.740 A million Ukrainians are going to die.

00:31:51.520 Their farmland is going to be sold to BlackRock.

00:31:53.180 The Ukrainian nation will cease to exist.

00:31:55.080 They'll flood it with third worlders, which they're going to do.

00:31:57.220 So what do you do?

00:31:58.360 What would I do?

00:31:59.340 Yes.

00:31:59.660 I would say, like, if I took over the government in January of 2022, and we're on the verge of a Russian invasion of Ukraine,

00:32:07.100 I would say, guys, it's not worth trying to impose something that this country will never accept,

00:32:12.120 because if we try to do that, we'll get a war.

00:32:14.040 So do you let Putin take Ukraine?

00:32:15.960 You don't let anybody do anything.

00:32:17.680 You realistically assess what you're able to do, because you're gambling with the other people's lives.

00:32:22.340 By the way, if a million Brits had died, you might have a different perspective.

00:32:26.540 But it's very easy to be like, oh, more Ukrainians should die for the cause of democracy.

00:32:31.060 Let me assure you, if Russia invaded Britain, that would not be the view of the British people.

00:32:36.580 Our view would be to fight to the last man and woman to kick him out.

00:32:40.100 But my question really is...

00:32:41.100 You really think so?

00:32:41.620 My question is not...

00:32:42.540 It just got invaded over the last 40 years and did nothing.

00:32:44.780 So I don't think so.

00:32:45.820 I don't think you would do that.

00:32:46.740 I think you'd be like, we can't fight back because we have nuclear weapons, but no real military.

00:32:50.480 So we'd like to negotiate, just like all conquered nations do.

00:32:53.420 They negotiate on the basis of reality.

00:32:55.500 What can I actually achieve?

00:32:56.200 But respectfully, you're not answering my question, which you don't have to, because you're interviewing me in this bit.

00:33:00.280 But the question is, once Putin invaded, do you let him take the whole country?

00:33:04.460 What do you do?

00:33:05.080 If I were in charge, then?

00:33:06.160 Yes.

00:33:06.600 If I had come in, if I came in in January of 2022, I would say to the State Department, I would say to the NATO leadership...

00:33:13.780 No, I'm talking about February, end of February, early March.

00:33:16.260 At that point, I'm cleaning up a mess caused by the previous administration.

00:33:18.780 Yes, so assume it's happened.

00:33:19.740 Let's say I'm Donald Trump, who's actually coming in, in that exact circumstance.

00:33:22.600 Right, and he's now wrestling with this very problem.

00:33:24.700 He certainly is.

00:33:25.820 He doesn't want to give Putin the win.

00:33:27.720 And that's my point to you.

00:33:28.500 Do you actually want him to win?

00:33:30.280 Well, I mean, if your lodestar is whether other people win, you will lose.

00:33:37.580 That's a shitty way to go through life.

00:33:39.520 If I'm trying to prevent you a win...

00:33:41.520 No, I'm trying to win.

00:33:42.880 I'm trying to win for my wife, my children, my neighborhood, my country.

00:33:46.540 But once he's invaded...

00:33:47.380 I don't care whether you win or not.

00:33:47.980 But once he's invaded, what do you do?

00:33:49.900 Your victory has nothing to do with anything.

00:33:52.120 What I care about is my victory.

00:33:52.920 You're in this as much as we are.

00:33:54.100 No, no, no.

00:33:54.700 I care about my country and whether we win, what's good for us.

00:33:57.580 Because I'm in charge of my country.

00:33:58.540 This is theoretically, I'm in charge of nothing.

00:33:59.960 Is it good for America that Putin wins?

00:34:02.120 This whole thing has been a disaster.

00:34:03.340 We're going to lose the U.S. dollar over this, okay?

00:34:05.800 Because we follow the advice of people like Boris Johnson, who have no skin in the game

00:34:11.240 whatsoever, but they get to feel like a moral charge, be like, we're on the side of democracy.

00:34:16.940 Okay.

00:34:17.540 It's so infuriating to make it.

00:34:19.020 I'm sorry to be so mean to the Brits because it's our fault.

00:34:22.340 We can take it.

00:34:23.300 In fact, we started this.

00:34:24.560 But you guys went along like little Pekingese.

00:34:26.620 You shouldn't have done that.

00:34:27.420 But why are you not answering my question?

00:34:29.120 What would I do if I were Trump right now?

00:34:30.560 No, no.

00:34:30.840 Once he invaded Putin, what do you let him take?

00:34:33.200 I'd call Putin.

00:34:34.160 Let him take.

00:34:34.940 I would say...

00:34:35.240 Yes.

00:34:35.660 Let him take.

00:34:36.640 To what extent can you clean it up?

00:34:37.820 You call Putin and you say, all right, this happened.

00:34:40.860 First thing we're going to do is recognize it's not in our interest, your interest, the

00:34:44.620 world's interest to have NATO missiles on your border.

00:34:46.920 We don't want that.

00:34:47.780 There's no reason to want that because we don't want to drive you into the arms of China.

00:34:51.000 You are really part of Europe and you should be part of the West because the West is a

00:34:57.380 Christian world that has a lot in common culturally, religiously, linguistically, historically,

00:35:03.720 and we want to be a bloc against the rising...

00:35:05.680 And he says, actually, I want Ukraine.

00:35:11.500 If you're the leader of the United States, your number one goal is to keep Russia, the

00:35:15.620 world's largest landmass with some of the world's deepest energy reserves, from a line

00:35:19.040 with China, which has too many people, not enough land and not enough energy.

00:35:22.840 So if they get together, they create a bloc that is bigger than you economically and militarily.

00:35:27.180 So you cannot let that happen.

00:35:28.340 That's number one goal.

00:35:29.500 You cannot let that happen.

00:35:30.800 And that retard in charge of our country just allowed that to happen because he hates

00:35:35.660 the United States has acted against its interests consistently from day one, 2020 to January

00:35:40.680 20th, 2025, when he left.

00:35:43.120 Thank God.

00:35:43.980 So that's the goal.

00:35:45.700 Do not allow...

00:35:46.960 To the extent you can control it.

00:35:48.420 Do not allow Russia to align meaningfully with China.

00:35:51.340 They have much more in common with us.

00:35:52.880 They're part of Europe.

00:35:53.840 You guys don't want to admit that they are.

00:35:55.260 I don't want to be pedantic.

00:35:56.200 You're not being pedantic.

00:35:56.900 What do you let Putin take?

00:35:58.780 I don't care.

00:35:59.700 What I care about...

00:36:00.580 You don't care?

00:36:00.920 I care.

00:36:01.700 But what I care about is the balance of power in the world.

00:36:05.760 And if the West finds itself in a place where it's got a much smaller collective economy

00:36:11.200 and a much less powerful collective military than the East, then we're in serious trouble.

00:36:18.720 There's no balance in the world.

00:36:20.360 The Chinese are in charge of everything.

00:36:22.300 And so you can't let that happen.

00:36:24.020 But if you roll over and you let Putin take what he wants...

00:36:27.220 Roll over?

00:36:27.480 It's all this like dick measuring contest.

00:36:29.260 It's so dumb.

00:36:29.840 Let me just respond.

00:36:30.460 Roll over?

00:36:31.100 Let me just respond.

00:36:31.880 If you roll over and you let him take what he wants in Ukraine, why should China not go

00:36:35.760 and take what they want in Taiwan, for example?

00:36:37.740 They would just take...

00:36:38.420 Well, they are going to take what they want in Taiwan.

00:36:39.960 I'm not sure they will, especially with Trump as president.

00:36:42.440 It's part of China.

00:36:43.160 I don't think they will.

00:36:44.400 Okay.

00:36:45.020 Why do we get to dictate what China does with Taiwan?

00:36:47.940 Like there's fears...

00:36:48.680 You'd be happy for them to take back Taiwan?

00:36:49.960 Of course, I'm not happy.

00:36:51.220 I'm not happy with any conflict ever.

00:36:52.820 I hate violence.

00:36:53.620 I'm a Christian.

00:36:54.640 I'm just saying that great countries have spheres of influence.

00:36:57.800 So Saudi Arabia, where we are now, everyone's like, oh, the Saudis are interfering in Yemen.

00:37:02.480 Well, Yemen's right there.

00:37:03.860 It's in their world.

00:37:04.940 Like they have an absolute interest in making sure that like nothing crazy goes on in Yemen.

00:37:09.860 We have the same interest in Mexico and in Canada.

00:37:11.720 And we have some crazy cross-dressing prime minister in Canada.

00:37:14.800 So we kick them out because they're on our border.

00:37:17.340 That's what great powers do.

00:37:18.700 That's what they've always done.

00:37:19.760 That's what they always will do.

00:37:20.780 So it's totally fair for us to recognize that the countries around Russia, now we shouldn't

00:37:25.080 be invading or torturing them or oppressing them, of course.

00:37:28.040 But that's their sphere.

00:37:29.780 And big picture, holy smokes, you do not want the two largest powers in the world, apart

00:37:36.580 from the United States, to get together and align against us.

00:37:38.920 Why do you support Israel against Hamas, for example?

00:37:43.300 Why do you support America giving them billions of dollars?

00:37:46.140 Well, I don't.

00:37:47.240 You don't support Israel being supported by America?

00:37:49.740 Well, I support Israel in the sense that I really like Israel.

00:37:52.660 I brought my family on vacation to Israel.

00:37:53.820 But do you agree with America supplying them with a lot of arms?

00:37:57.280 To the extent that it helps the United States, I'm for it, of course.

00:38:02.360 I think what we need is-

00:38:03.280 So you do believe in America interfering in countries a long way away.

00:38:07.260 It just depends which country.

00:38:09.560 No.

00:38:10.540 Your principle, it doesn't really apply in Israel.

00:38:12.960 I'll articulate it for the third time, just to be totally clear.

00:38:15.800 I believe the United States, like every country, should, to the extent that it can, act on behalf

00:38:20.960 of its own people and their perceived interests.

00:38:23.380 We can debate what those interests are.

00:38:24.400 But that doesn't apply in Israel.

00:38:26.400 I don't know what you mean.

00:38:27.380 America's supporting Israel because it's an ally.

00:38:30.940 I don't even know what those words mean.

00:38:32.560 I'm just saying my principle is-

00:38:33.940 Well, they're an ally, right?

00:38:34.640 I mean, they both-

00:38:35.320 I don't know what that means to be an ally.

00:38:36.460 I mean, we have no-

00:38:37.460 It means that when Israel wants to attack in Gaza and attack Hamas, America will help

00:38:42.540 it because it's his ally.

00:38:43.720 That's not what it means to be an ally.

00:38:44.320 So it gives it billions of dollars worth, doesn't it?

00:38:45.760 It's not what it means to be an ally, okay?

00:38:46.960 Well, fundamentally, it does.

00:38:47.780 I have no greater allies than my own children.

00:38:49.900 When they come to me and say, I want to do this, I assess whether it's good for them

00:38:52.500 or not.

00:38:52.760 And if I don't think it is, I don't support it.

00:38:54.120 Right.

00:38:54.540 Because they're my true allies.

00:38:55.680 They're my children.

00:38:56.340 But why would you support America getting involved in Israel?

00:38:58.340 Just because a country that's your ally says, I want to do this, does not mean axiomatically

00:39:01.200 you support it.

00:39:01.800 Maybe it's not good for you or me.

00:39:03.000 So do you support America supporting Israel to the tune of billions of dollars?

00:39:07.040 It depends.

00:39:07.440 If you can make-

00:39:08.540 It depends.

00:39:08.960 What's in America's interest in what's happening in Gaza?

00:39:10.840 It depends in all cases.

00:39:12.260 It's not just about Israel.

00:39:13.180 But do you support what's happening then in the support in the attacks in Gaza, for example?

00:39:17.460 Because I don't see the difference between that and what's happening in Ukraine.

00:39:21.420 This is a long way away from America.

00:39:23.300 There's no direct involvement with America.

00:39:25.400 There's no mainland involvement with America.

00:39:27.760 And yet you think it's right that America supports Israel, or put words in your mouth.

00:39:32.780 But you don't think it's right that America-

00:39:34.120 I don't think those are the words that came out of my mouth.

00:39:35.420 But you don't think it's right America supports Ukraine when Russia invades it?

00:39:38.260 I have a simple solution.

00:39:39.020 Let me explain what I think.

00:39:40.260 And then that way we'll get-

00:39:41.160 Am I wrong?

00:39:41.520 We'll get right to what I think.

00:39:42.540 Am I wrong?

00:39:42.920 I actually tuned out midway through.

00:39:45.160 I'm not exactly sure what you said.

00:39:46.200 You can't tune out when I'm right.

00:39:47.320 I did, I did, I did.

00:39:47.920 Just because I'm right.

00:39:48.560 You can't tune out.

00:39:49.500 I didn't follow everything you said.

00:39:50.320 You can't tune out when I'm right.

00:39:51.760 No, but it was more a lecture about what I think.

00:39:53.740 And then I'm like, wait, I know what I think.

00:39:54.920 I think I'm the world's expert on what I think.

00:39:56.220 In fact, I think I'm the uncontested premier of my own head.

00:40:01.100 That is true.

00:40:01.880 So I'm going to unload its contents on you right now.

00:40:05.140 Explain what is America's national interest in Israel?

00:40:09.740 I'll define the parameters as well, because I'm happier with that.

00:40:13.660 I would say I support the right of all sovereign nations to act within what they believe is their own interest.

00:40:22.120 Like, we don't always know our own interest in our personal lives or between nations.

00:40:25.500 Like, we think it's good for us, but it may not be.

00:40:27.420 The vodka in the morning analogy.

00:40:29.140 Not good, actually, but I thought it was.

00:40:30.520 Now I know it's not.

00:40:31.700 But to the extent that we think we know, I think countries should act on behalf of their own citizens.

00:40:36.500 That's the basic idea in democracy, okay?

00:40:40.100 And there's certainly a case.

00:40:42.400 You could make a case that whatever we're giving to Israel this year in the form of direct aid, military assistance, loan guarantees, however we're doing it, is good for the United States.

00:40:51.020 I think you just have to make that case.

00:40:52.960 Why is it good for the United States?

00:40:54.980 Well, you could make that case.

00:40:56.140 But why is it?

00:40:56.640 I'm not convinced.

00:40:57.720 What is the case?

00:40:59.420 Well, I don't know.

00:41:00.020 You'd have to be an advocate for it.

00:41:01.200 You are a vociferous advocate for it.

00:41:03.000 So why don't you tell me?

00:41:04.360 For what?

00:41:05.260 For USAID to Israel in the current conflict.

00:41:07.780 Actually, I haven't expected a view about that at all.

00:41:10.300 I'm just curious about the difference in your own.

00:41:12.980 You're not an Israel hater, are you?

00:41:14.340 Not at all.

00:41:15.120 Not at all.

00:41:15.560 Why are you attacking Israel?

00:41:18.060 I don't know why.

00:41:19.060 What problem do you have with Israel, Piers?

00:41:20.980 I have no problem with Israel.

00:41:21.800 The press are like this.

00:41:22.260 They secretly hate Israel.

00:41:23.140 I have no problem with Israel whatsoever.

00:41:24.520 It feels like you do.

00:41:25.280 Is Netanyahu a dictator?

00:41:26.780 Actually, I don't like Netanyahu.

00:41:29.200 I think you should.

00:41:29.880 So you hate Israel.

00:41:30.620 I think you should go.

00:41:31.660 Let me just ask you one more time.

00:41:33.960 Whoa, whoa, whoa.

00:41:34.280 Hang on.

00:41:34.820 Now we're getting into...

00:41:35.880 I'm not comfortable with this.

00:41:37.020 Here's my question.

00:41:37.840 Should I be platforming you?

00:41:38.880 That's my question.

00:41:39.880 You just said you don't like Netanyahu?

00:41:41.600 I'm trying to work out whose brand suffers more when we platform each other.

00:41:44.400 But let me ask you this.

00:41:45.440 Let me ask you this.

00:41:45.980 I'm going to need a second.

00:41:46.520 One more time, just quietly for the people at the back.

00:41:50.060 You don't like America getting involved in helping Ukraine against Russia

00:41:54.380 because there's no national interest for America in doing that in your eyes.

00:41:58.680 Well, there's a negative national interest, a profound one.

00:42:00.820 So I get that.

00:42:01.360 We're losing the U.S. dollar as the world's reserve currency because of this war.

00:42:04.180 All right.

00:42:04.640 So fine.

00:42:05.120 There's no greater national interest.

00:42:05.740 So your position is America first.

00:42:08.220 There's no interest for America.

00:42:09.920 Shouldn't be doing it.

00:42:10.480 Every country should act for the national interest.

00:42:11.180 It's a problem between Ukraine and Russia.

00:42:14.360 Okay.

00:42:14.780 That's fine.

00:42:15.460 A lot of people have that view.

00:42:16.380 I respect it.

00:42:17.760 What I can't understand is the difference in your logic and principle about supporting Israel in its war with Hamas,

00:42:25.340 which is many thousands of miles away from America.

00:42:28.760 Have I been a great advocate for the war?

00:42:31.920 I missed that part of the conversation.

00:42:33.800 Well, you support America supporting Israel.

00:42:36.220 You don't support America supporting Ukraine.

00:42:37.580 I don't support America supporting any nation on the planet to its own detriment.

00:42:43.640 Every element of our foreign policy should serve the United States.

00:42:47.380 Okay.

00:42:47.460 That's the point of our government is to serve the people who live there called citizens.

00:42:52.020 That's what democracy is.

00:42:53.160 There's no other reason.

00:42:54.400 So if I'm in charge of a country and I decide, actually, I should do this because people who pay me want me to do it or I'm making money to do it, then I'm by definition illegitimate.

00:43:01.260 That's not democracy.

00:43:02.780 That is a species of oligarchy or whatever.

00:43:05.180 You could assign a name to it.

00:43:05.940 That's not democracy.

00:43:06.680 So I just believe in our system.

00:43:08.440 And our leaders should act on behalf of their own people or what they think is their own people's interests.

00:43:12.920 And I would apply that to Israel.

00:43:14.240 I'd apply it to Ukraine.

00:43:15.040 I think there have certainly been times where we have benefited from our alliance with Israel.

00:43:22.960 You know, it's an alliance.

00:43:24.020 Just like we have an alliance with our country.

00:43:24.860 They are allies then.

00:43:26.200 I don't know what ally means.

00:43:27.360 It's short for alliance.

00:43:30.480 Yeah, you're right.

00:43:31.320 It is.

00:43:31.540 Yes.

00:43:31.820 It's so funny.

00:43:32.440 I never knew that.

00:43:33.240 I've got you.

00:43:33.860 You've got me.

00:43:34.700 You've literally just.

00:43:35.880 When it comes to etymology, you are the unchallenged king.

00:43:39.480 Boom.

00:43:40.900 You're blowing my mind, Piers Morgan.

00:43:42.680 My English linguistics.

00:43:43.680 I just wanted to say, you guys invented the language.

00:43:45.340 You know what?

00:43:45.820 It is our language.

00:43:47.040 You lot fucked it up.

00:43:48.380 We actually.

00:43:49.480 It's our language.

00:43:50.720 As a PG Woodhouse fan, I totally agree.

00:43:52.520 It's a root, not a route.

00:43:54.240 It's Iran, not Iran.

00:43:56.380 And it's a hurricane, not a hurricane.

00:43:58.680 Hurricane is embarrassing.

00:43:59.760 These are all our words.

00:44:00.580 No, no, that's not true.

00:44:01.160 We gave them to you.

00:44:01.840 You don't have hurricanes.

00:44:02.240 You changed them.

00:44:03.080 We have hurricanes.

00:44:03.840 You don't have hurricanes or pecans?

00:44:05.280 We have one in 87.

00:44:06.100 It knocked down all the trees in my house.

00:44:07.500 You had a hurricane?

00:44:08.200 Yes.

00:44:09.020 87.

00:44:09.580 I think it's a typhoon when it happens.

00:44:10.980 Famously, the BBC weatherman at the time.

00:44:13.880 Announced on the BBC main news on the night, there are people ringing in saying,

00:44:18.540 is there going to be a hurricane in the UK?

00:44:20.760 And no one knew what it meant.

00:44:21.340 And let me tell you, there is not.

00:44:23.620 Four hours later, every tree in south of England fell down.

00:44:26.240 Are you serious?

00:44:27.320 Yes.

00:44:28.520 But we called it a hurricane, is my point.

00:44:30.000 Yeah.

00:44:30.380 Well, you don't have enough experience.

00:44:31.520 As someone who spends a lot of time in Florida, it's a hurricane.

00:44:34.180 It's also a cocktail.

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00:45:49.000 Would you kill Putin if you could?

00:45:50.640 Would I?

00:45:51.160 Not personally, no.

00:45:52.260 But do you think it should be the policy of the UK government, the US government?

00:45:56.480 Because it is now the policy to kill Putin.

00:45:58.280 No, I would prefer the people of Russia to vote him out.

00:46:02.080 But I also feel the same way about Netanyahu and the people in Israel.

00:46:06.100 So you're not calling for the assassination of Netanyahu?

00:46:07.740 No.

00:46:08.000 Or Putin?

00:46:08.520 No.

00:46:08.900 No.

00:46:10.100 Do you think that if Putin were to leave, either by force or choice,

00:46:15.760 that Russia would have a more pro-Western leader afterwards?

00:46:18.380 Not necessarily, no.

00:46:19.260 Yeah.

00:46:20.300 Okay.

00:46:20.960 Highly unlikely.

00:46:22.880 Highly unlikely.

00:46:23.660 I think that's a fair assessment.

00:46:25.240 Then why would you want, since there's no evidence that the majority of Russians don't

00:46:29.720 want Putin, there's overwhelming evidence that they do want Putin.

00:46:32.360 So he appears to be the choice of his own country, which you may not like or whatever, but it

00:46:37.460 seems true.

00:46:39.460 And he's the most pro-Western leader we're likely to get in our lifetimes.

00:46:43.000 Then why are we against Putin exactly?

00:46:44.820 Because I don't believe him in the way that you seem to.

00:46:48.000 I don't believe anybody.

00:46:48.880 That he has this very well-intentioned, perfectly reasonable, understandable reason why he had

00:46:54.640 to illegally invade a democratic country and take a third of its people, and take a third

00:46:59.760 of its land and people.

00:47:00.720 And you think that's fine.

00:47:02.240 And I'm saying-

00:47:02.340 I think it's hilarious when you make reference to what's legal in the middle of a war-

00:47:05.920 What's illegal?

00:47:06.240 When your country and mine blew up Nord Stream and destroyed the Western European economy,

00:47:10.180 was that legal?

00:47:11.100 You're talking to the editor of the paper that opposed the illegal invasion of Iraq.

00:47:14.540 You supported that.

00:47:16.060 Well, I supported the invasion of Iraq.

00:47:18.660 That was illegal too.

00:47:19.380 I've apologized for 22 years, but I wanted to-

00:47:21.800 Do you accept that was illegal?

00:47:23.620 I don't even know what that means.

00:47:25.220 Breaking the law.

00:47:26.280 What law?

00:47:26.780 Against international law.

00:47:28.180 Who makes international law?

00:47:29.940 Well, the international community.

00:47:31.480 Oh, the international community.

00:47:32.240 What do they mean?

00:47:32.880 Do you not think there's anything like-

00:47:34.040 You don't believe in international law?

00:47:35.040 I don't even know what that means.

00:47:36.000 Who is the international community?

00:47:37.680 Is Iran in the international community?

00:47:38.660 So you think any invasion of a sovereign-

00:47:40.500 Not at all.

00:47:41.200 Can be legal?

00:47:42.500 I don't even know what you mean by legal.

00:47:44.700 It's wrong.

00:47:45.500 Lawful.

00:47:46.580 What law?

00:47:47.640 Are there international policemen?

00:47:48.760 Who are they?

00:47:50.040 What are you even talking about?

00:47:51.640 Well, you don't think they're international laws.

00:47:54.300 No, I think they're moral laws, and that's what I care about.

00:47:56.540 Certain things are wrong, regardless of what the leadership of any country says.

00:47:59.100 You don't believe that.

00:47:59.800 You believe there are actual laws, don't you?

00:48:01.500 It's not international laws.

00:48:02.320 There are no international laws.

00:48:03.420 Really?

00:48:03.840 Are there international policemen?

00:48:04.560 You don't believe in the-

00:48:05.100 Are there international courts?

00:48:05.860 You don't believe in the-

00:48:06.780 Yes, they're all international courts.

00:48:07.760 Really?

00:48:08.040 So who's punished in international courts?

00:48:09.380 And there's also, by the way-

00:48:10.100 Other than Milosevic.

00:48:11.080 Do you believe in the-

00:48:11.700 Who's punished?

00:48:11.960 Do you believe in the Geneva Convention or not?

00:48:14.420 I believe in the ideas behind the Geneva Convention, absolutely.

00:48:16.420 Absolutely, but it's universally disregarded, including by your country, which I think has

00:48:21.420 bioweapons, by the way.

00:48:22.360 You should get on that, find out.

00:48:24.640 Those are prohibited, but I think you guys have them.

00:48:27.320 You're in violation-

00:48:27.760 But if that turns out to be true, I would be violently opposed to that.

00:48:30.660 But you know that it is true.

00:48:31.840 I don't, actually.

00:48:33.160 I think you should find out.

00:48:34.580 I'll look into it.

00:48:35.740 I mean, there are biolabs in Ukraine.

00:48:37.320 What are biolabs doing in Ukraine, do you think?

00:48:39.580 Are you comfortable with that?

00:48:40.580 No, it wouldn't be if they're there.

00:48:42.480 But you said Zelensky was a fabulous leader.

00:48:45.140 Why would he have biolabs?

00:48:46.400 I like him personally.

00:48:47.500 What?

00:48:48.720 The dictator with bioweapons.

00:48:50.700 I'm not into it.

00:48:51.520 I'm sorry.

00:48:51.980 I'm just, I guess that it would be, it's against international law, so I'm opposed.

00:48:55.560 No, look, I'm just saying international law is a theoretical concept, and it's literally

00:49:00.620 theoretical because it's not enforceable, and we know that because it's not enforced.

00:49:03.640 So what matters is what's the interest of your country and what's right and wrong.

00:49:06.660 And I'm a Christian, so that's pretty clear for me.

00:49:08.540 All this shit is wrong.

00:49:09.560 It's completely wrong.

00:49:10.300 It's wrong to send cluster bombs to Ukraine, which you supported.

00:49:14.100 I'm totally opposed to that.

00:49:15.140 Cluster bombs to kill more kids?

00:49:16.260 Like, why?

00:49:16.680 That's wrong.

00:49:17.540 I don't care if international law says it's wrong.

00:49:19.820 That's irrelevant.

00:49:20.160 Was it wrong for America to use atomic bombs in World War II?

00:49:23.300 Absolutely.

00:49:24.280 Really?

00:49:25.340 To use nuclear weapons?

00:49:26.660 Yes.

00:49:27.160 To win the war?

00:49:27.820 Of course.

00:49:28.220 To save many hundreds of thousands of more people dying?

00:49:31.560 That's what happened.

00:49:33.160 I don't, you know, this is a-

00:49:35.380 Is it not morally-

00:49:36.120 What we refer to in the business as a theoretical assertion.

00:49:40.820 Not really.

00:49:41.360 Everyone is-

00:49:41.880 Well, it's literally theoretical.

00:49:42.840 Whether you agree or don't agree with the use of nuclear weapons, nobody disputes the

00:49:46.540 fact that it brought an end to a war, which hadn't been allowed to carry on for another

00:49:49.480 six months to a year, would have carried many-

00:49:51.280 Why Nagasaki, why drop it on Japan's Christian population?

00:49:54.800 Is there some reason Hiroshima wasn't enough?

00:49:56.520 No, because they wanted to test a different variety of atomic weapon.

00:50:01.020 So, like, I'm against that.

00:50:01.920 I'm against killing civilians.

00:50:03.780 I'm against firebombing cities.

00:50:05.260 I'm against bioweapons.

00:50:06.620 I'm against chemical weapons.

00:50:07.440 What weapons do you support?

00:50:09.100 I guess conventional weapons.

00:50:11.180 You know, I'm-

00:50:12.180 Well, how big a bomb do you support?

00:50:14.020 Look, if you're intentionally killing civilians-

00:50:15.960 Isn't it a question of just a scale?

00:50:17.600 I mean-

00:50:17.920 To some extent it is, yeah.

00:50:18.880 If you believe in a big bomb and it kills 500 people, but you don't agree with one that

00:50:23.080 kills 1,000, what's the difference ideologically?

00:50:25.480 It depends who they are.

00:50:26.560 I mean, I think you can say-

00:50:27.780 I mean, there are-

00:50:28.540 So, after Pearl Harbor, you think it was wrong with the Japanese refusing to surrender,

00:50:34.040 vowing to kill as many people as they possibly could, that America decided to use its two

00:50:37.940 most powerful weapons to bring an end to the war?

00:50:40.700 That's one way to put it.

00:50:41.920 I would say it's more morally justified what America did than what the British did, for

00:50:47.140 example, in carpet bombing Dresden, actually.

00:50:49.840 I think there was more justification because they were trying to bring an end to the war

00:50:53.340 as quickly as they could to avoid potentially millions more people dying.

00:50:57.560 You know, it's no defense of Imperial Japan or Pearl Harbor or Franklin Roosevelt for allowing

00:51:03.200 Pearl Harbor, which he did.

00:51:04.880 It's not a defense of any of that to say, if you're intentionally killing civilians, you

00:51:11.020 probably shouldn't beat your chest and brag about it.

00:51:13.200 You know, maybe you can make-

00:51:14.020 I agree with that.

00:51:14.640 Maybe you make the case that we had to do it or whatever, but you should-

00:51:17.500 I agree.

00:51:17.800 You should weep, and that's evil, and you should just say it's evil.

00:51:21.240 And I know it's really threatening to-

00:51:23.060 Is it evil, though?

00:51:23.720 Ben Shapiro to say that or whatever.

00:51:25.280 Is it evil?

00:51:25.900 To kill civilians on purpose?

00:51:26.880 Yeah, it is.

00:51:27.200 I think it is.

00:51:27.960 Really?

00:51:28.120 Kids and children.

00:51:29.240 Well, how is it not, actually?

00:51:30.600 In a war?

00:51:31.820 Well, you can call it whatever you want.

00:51:33.080 How is it right to kill women and children?

00:51:34.760 I didn't say-

00:51:35.600 Well, because I think there's a moral right behind you if you are literally-

00:51:38.720 To kill women and children?

00:51:39.640 If there's a world war that threatens the entire-

00:51:41.700 How do you want?

00:51:42.040 It threatens the entire world.

00:51:44.140 Yes.

00:51:44.360 Have some people killed your kids like your eight-year-old?

00:51:46.040 Like, how is that morally justifiable?

00:51:48.400 Well, because, actually, you have to-

00:51:50.320 Well, by your criteria-

00:51:51.820 That's disgusting.

00:51:52.440 Okay, so no war is morally justified?

00:51:55.840 I mean, I think it's pretty hard to justify-

00:51:57.560 I mean, yeah, I'm sure-

00:51:58.060 Any war?

00:51:58.560 You know, a pure defensive action, sure.

00:52:01.360 But all I'm saying, look, it's all ugly.

00:52:04.140 It's all hard to stomach.

00:52:05.040 I've actually seen some of it up close.

00:52:06.680 It's super ugly.

00:52:07.620 You can say you hate it.

00:52:08.960 May I finish?

00:52:09.580 But the fact you quibble with it being morally justified-

00:52:12.080 To intentionally kill non-combatants, women and children,

00:52:16.040 I think we can say that's wrong.

00:52:18.360 In fact, I thought that was the thing we were fighting against.

00:52:21.500 And censorship and dictatorship, people ruling without being elected, people using force

00:52:27.420 to get their will.

00:52:28.160 Like, I thought that was the whole thing we were fighting against.

00:52:30.440 So how about we don't become that?

00:52:32.400 And I'm just saying, all kinds of decisions are made under duress.

00:52:35.020 I have made decisions under duress, foolishly, that I'm ashamed of, including supporting

00:52:38.640 the Iraq war.

00:52:39.780 But why are we defending it?

00:52:41.080 I just don't understand that.

00:52:42.060 And we're defending it, of course, because we're still doing it.

00:52:44.460 And a lot of people are getting rich.

00:52:46.260 And a lot of people find meaning in their otherwise barren lives.

00:52:48.460 Rather than, like, raising decent children, having a productive life, making something,

00:52:51.800 they exist to destroy.

00:52:53.800 I just think that's evil.

00:52:54.540 You think no military action is morally justifiable, then?

00:52:57.680 I didn't say that.

00:52:58.540 Aren't you implying that?

00:52:59.580 I'm not implying it.

00:53:00.340 I never imply anything.

00:53:01.240 I just say things.

00:53:01.960 It's the death of any innocent people.

00:53:03.160 Implying things is for girls.

00:53:04.100 I'm just telling you what I think.

00:53:05.400 Yeah.

00:53:05.600 If you kill any innocent people, civilians, in a war, you think it's all morally lacking

00:53:11.580 in justification?

00:53:12.620 Because I would argue against that.

00:53:14.920 Right.

00:53:15.400 You're arguing against a construct that you created in order to argue against.

00:53:18.380 Not really.

00:53:18.840 Well, I'm being super straightforward.

00:53:20.740 Is there any form of warfare that's morally justified?

00:53:24.540 Go on.

00:53:25.020 Let me finish.

00:53:26.320 I'm saying when you intentionally kill women and children, when you wage war through fear

00:53:32.820 by murdering the civilian population, I don't think that's a good thing.

00:53:37.840 And I don't think you should be defending it.

00:53:39.380 And I don't know why it's such a threat to say that out loud.

00:53:41.840 If you're firebombing someone's city, as we did Tokyo, as you guys did Dresden, and a

00:53:46.160 lot of other cities, by the way, in both of those countries, if you're dropping atomic

00:53:49.560 weapons in the middle of town on a Catholic church, I don't know why you have to look back

00:53:53.800 80 years later and be like, that was a great thing.

00:53:55.440 It wasn't a great thing.

00:53:56.260 It was a shameful thing.

00:53:57.340 And we should be better than that because we're not savages.

00:53:59.260 I don't think.

00:53:59.660 Because we're Christians.

00:54:00.140 But I don't agree with you.

00:54:00.780 I don't agree with you.

00:54:01.480 Okay.

00:54:01.900 Apparently you don't.

00:54:02.660 I don't.

00:54:02.860 You said, right?

00:54:03.500 I don't.

00:54:03.680 It's okay to kill eight-year-olds because it's war.

00:54:06.020 Well, it's not okay to kill eight-year-olds.

00:54:07.440 I didn't say anything is okay.

00:54:09.000 What I said is morally justified because when you have an enemy that is prepared to put

00:54:14.400 six million Jews into gas chambers and murder six million more people, they are prepared

00:54:19.740 to do anything and you have to stop them.

00:54:22.700 And then any response you give to me is morally justified.

00:54:26.060 Any response?

00:54:27.000 Well, pretty much.

00:54:27.780 If you're taking the war to them to try and end the war and trying to defeat a nihilistic

00:54:32.760 group like the Nazis, yes, it's morally nihilistic.

00:54:35.880 Says the guy who's defending the murder of eight-year-olds.

00:54:37.800 They're nihilistic.

00:54:38.380 I'm not defending the murder of any eight-year-olds.

00:54:40.100 What you're doing is expressing a species of nihilism.

00:54:42.200 The whole point is we are better than you because we have limits.

00:54:45.120 There are some things where I'm not going to rape your wife.

00:54:46.540 I'm just not.

00:54:47.020 How do you stop?

00:54:47.540 Hold on.

00:54:47.680 Let me finish.

00:54:48.360 Okay.

00:54:48.640 I am not going to behave like an animal.

00:54:51.800 You are.

00:54:52.640 That's why we're at war.

00:54:53.960 You bombed preemptively my Pacific fleet in Pearl Harbor.

00:54:58.360 We weren't even at war.

00:54:59.080 Why did you do that?

00:54:59.660 That's outrageous.

00:55:00.220 We're going to punish you for doing it.

00:55:01.220 I get it.

00:55:01.640 But we're not like you.

00:55:03.500 Not punish.

00:55:03.880 Defend.

00:55:05.180 Of course, we're not defending.

00:55:06.240 There was no threat of invasion.

00:55:07.580 If you're the United States, I mean, you live in a tiny island nation.

00:55:10.140 I think there was a real threat.

00:55:11.300 Japanese attack Pearl Harbor.

00:55:12.320 That is a form of invasion, isn't it?

00:55:15.700 It was not an invasion.

00:55:17.280 It was an attack on a fleet.

00:55:18.260 It's a mass attack on America.

00:55:19.700 I'm not defending Pearl Harbor.

00:55:21.060 I don't think Roosevelt should have let it happen, which he did.

00:55:23.120 But once it happened, what do you do?

00:55:24.600 You attack them back.

00:55:26.100 I get it.

00:55:26.500 So you agree?

00:55:27.440 Okay, but hold on.

00:55:28.220 There are finer distinctions here.

00:55:29.460 Not really.

00:55:30.600 You attack them back.

00:55:31.300 Let me finish my fucking sentence.

00:55:32.440 Was it morally defensible to attack them back?

00:55:35.700 Stop.

00:55:35.980 Okay.

00:55:36.720 Yes, it was morally defensible to attack them back.

00:55:38.620 Thank you.

00:55:39.740 Thank you.

00:55:40.240 You agree with me.

00:55:40.880 But it depends what attack means.

00:55:41.640 You agree with me.

00:55:43.940 You didn't qualify.

00:55:45.160 Do you do all interviews like this?

00:55:45.940 You didn't qualify.

00:55:47.240 This is like crazy.

00:55:48.240 You're like.

00:55:48.340 You didn't qualify.

00:55:49.040 You say it's okay to molest children.

00:55:50.640 Why do you say that?

00:55:51.300 You're like.

00:55:51.520 I didn't say that.

00:55:52.060 No.

00:55:52.340 You just said it's okay to molest children.

00:55:54.540 Now, why would you be in favor of child molestation?

00:55:56.280 Nobody's talked about molesting children.

00:55:58.500 That's what you're saying.

00:55:59.060 You just said it was morally justified for America.

00:56:01.400 You're taking both parts of the dialogue.

00:56:02.360 It's like hilarious.

00:56:03.240 I've never seen anything like this.

00:56:04.100 You said America attacking after call home.

00:56:05.420 I bet when you have dumped people on, they end the interview and they're like, what just

00:56:08.600 happened?

00:56:10.540 Actually, you'll be saying that.

00:56:11.540 He just told me what I believe and then he attacked me for believing it.

00:56:14.940 It's so hilarious.

00:56:16.260 I love that.

00:56:17.200 It's like a species of masturbation.

00:56:18.720 Like you don't need another person present.

00:56:20.460 Listen.

00:56:20.920 Don't not masturbationist.

00:56:21.960 It's making love to someone you love.

00:56:25.780 Okay.

00:56:26.200 Let me just say, you don't ever want to wind up in a place where you're defending the

00:56:30.080 killing of children.

00:56:31.140 You just don't.

00:56:32.040 Now, you go into any kind of.

00:56:33.560 That wasn't what I was doing.

00:56:34.520 I was saying there's moral.

00:56:35.540 That's very much what you were doing.

00:56:36.300 No, no.

00:56:36.640 You said it was morally justified to kill children.

00:56:38.200 I said morally.

00:56:38.920 It's not.

00:56:39.280 No, no.

00:56:39.840 Morally justified to drop bombs, which end a war.

00:56:43.700 Yes.

00:56:44.160 I do believe.

00:56:44.720 Can I ask you just since we're still on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

00:56:49.640 Hard to say to make the case for Nagasaki, but whatever.

00:56:52.520 Why not, if you have this fantastic new weapon and you want to prevent, somehow you're required

00:56:58.200 to invade Japan.

00:56:59.400 Like, I don't know why we'd be required to invade Japan, by the way.

00:57:02.200 Like, no one ever answers that question.

00:57:03.200 They just attacked you?

00:57:04.620 No, they attacked us four years earlier and we've now beaten them and driven them out

00:57:07.680 of the Philippines and Malaysia and all this stuff.

00:57:09.220 We've won.

00:57:10.260 Why do we have to invade mainland Japan?

00:57:12.280 No one ever answers that question.

00:57:13.420 We just kind of have to because we have to.

00:57:14.700 Okay.

00:57:15.080 I'm not second guessing the military leadership of the Second World War, but I am second guessing

00:57:18.220 this.

00:57:19.200 Why wouldn't you bomb just military installations?

00:57:21.400 Why drop these bombs in the middle of a city when you know that overwhelmingly the incinerated

00:57:27.920 people will be civilians?

00:57:29.540 Like, why would you do that?

00:57:30.440 I would not do that.

00:57:31.500 I would say, I have the bomb.

00:57:32.640 Okay.

00:57:33.000 We're going to drop it on, you know, critical military infrastructure, arms manufacturing

00:57:37.400 plants on, you know, a fleet.

00:57:41.100 Why would you drop it?

00:57:42.040 Because when the enemy is not making that calculation, you have to stop them.

00:57:45.740 Stop them from what?

00:57:46.640 Not being invaded?

00:57:48.040 Stop them from killing your civilians, killing your people.

00:57:51.480 Japan in the summer of 1945 was in no position to kill any American civilians, period.

00:57:59.180 So I think they floated a couple of firebombs over Oregon three years before.

00:58:02.800 But the point is, look, I don't want to, I understand, you know, people do their best

00:58:06.540 under pressure.

00:58:07.400 They make mistakes.

00:58:08.560 I've made a million of them.

00:58:09.580 I'm not judging even Harry Truman, who I do think was kind of a pig, but whatever.

00:58:13.440 I'm not even judging.

00:58:15.020 Maybe we would have done the same thing.

00:58:16.180 I'm just saying 80 years later, why defend that?

00:58:19.480 Like, what's the point?

00:58:20.140 I think it was morally justified.

00:58:21.660 To kill 200,000 civilians?

00:58:23.260 Yeah.

00:58:23.440 So then we wouldn't have to invade, which we didn't have to anyway?

00:58:27.380 To save, potentially, millions of lives being killed, yes.

00:58:30.620 Of our invaders?

00:58:31.800 Of their country?

00:58:32.460 Of both sides.

00:58:33.480 To bring an end to the war.

00:58:34.200 How about just not invade them?

00:58:35.360 They wouldn't surrender.

00:58:36.420 You've got to bring the war to an end.

00:58:37.800 But they had lost.

00:58:38.640 Why do you, but why do you have to invade them?

00:58:40.040 Because they refused to surrender.

00:58:42.440 Okay, but we'd kick them out of all of their colonies.

00:58:45.180 We'd driven them back to their islands.

00:58:46.520 You don't dispute dropping those bombs at the end of the war, do you?

00:58:49.560 Well, I am disputing it.

00:58:50.860 That's what I'm doing right now.

00:58:51.820 You did end the war.

00:58:52.460 Well, oh, disputing that it ended the war.

00:58:54.580 Sure, of course.

00:58:55.440 So the means and effect are correct.

00:58:58.300 I'm also not disputing that bringing down the Twin Towers changed the United States.

00:59:01.300 Like, if you commit enough killing, you will change people's behavior, including getting

00:59:05.800 them to surrender.

00:59:06.500 I'm just, my only question is, is it worth it?

00:59:08.260 And what are you becoming when you participate in it?

00:59:10.160 Yeah, but I think-

00:59:10.680 I think that's a meaningful question that nobody addresses.

00:59:12.560 Like, who am I?

00:59:13.860 I'm a decent person.

00:59:15.240 I am an imperfect person.

00:59:17.880 This is how Americans, I think, should think of themselves and mostly do.

00:59:20.580 But I am also a representative of an enlightened country, product of an enlightened civilization

00:59:26.400 called Western civilization.

00:59:28.160 And there are certain things I will not do, even if they benefit me.

00:59:31.420 I'm not doing that because I'm not that guy.

00:59:33.440 I don't kill children.

00:59:34.360 I don't rape women.

00:59:35.300 I don't send women into battle to defend me, which I guess we now do.

00:59:39.600 That's wrong.

00:59:40.280 So you would condemn what Israel's done in Gaza, for example?

00:59:44.680 I don't want to be involved in it.

00:59:45.840 I mean, nearly 20,000 children are said to have died.

00:59:48.640 I don't-

00:59:49.760 You condemn it?

00:59:50.280 I think that that is a-

00:59:53.760 By your criteria, you condemn it?

00:59:56.460 Is it morally justified?

00:59:57.860 That is a calculation that Israel has to make.

01:00:00.100 I don't want to have anything to do with that.

01:00:01.940 You have no view?

01:00:05.060 No view?

01:00:06.420 It's hard to take a lecture from someone who just admitted that he hates Israel in every

01:00:10.360 fiber of his body.

01:00:11.300 I never said that.

01:00:12.080 You said that.

01:00:12.800 You said that on camera.

01:00:13.160 Now you're distracting.

01:00:13.960 No, no.

01:00:14.360 I'm not distracting.

01:00:14.880 Oh, yes, you are.

01:00:15.220 You're the one who said that.

01:00:15.940 You're now distracting.

01:00:16.760 You said, I hate Benjamin Netanyahu.

01:00:19.260 No, I didn't.

01:00:19.660 I said, I don't think you should be a leader anymore.

01:00:21.140 You hate him.

01:00:22.040 You shouldn't be a leader.

01:00:22.500 With an irrational hatred that, you know, I don't know where it comes from.

01:00:25.640 I can't account for what's in your soul.

01:00:27.000 I don't have an x-ray into what's deep inside you.

01:00:29.900 But all you said was, I hate him.

01:00:31.040 I have no problem saying that I think Israel's response has gone way too far, way too many

01:00:35.680 civilians have been killed.

01:00:36.700 What I'm surprised about is that you, having lectured me about the deaths of eight-year-olds,

01:00:40.920 you don't want to morally condemn what Israel's done and does.

01:00:43.980 I'm curious as to why.

01:00:45.040 But I wanted to...

01:00:45.440 By your criteria.

01:00:46.980 Yeah.

01:00:47.580 My criteria apply solely, and this is a thread of consistency throughout my arguments here

01:00:53.680 and everywhere for the last 20 years.

01:00:55.340 They have to do with the behavior of the United States, which is my country, and it's been

01:01:00.280 my family's country for hundreds of years.

01:01:01.820 I pay my full taxes.

01:01:03.060 I feel very vested.

01:01:04.040 I'm a shareholder in my country.

01:01:05.340 So its behavior matters greatly to me.

01:01:07.160 I'm implicated in its behavior.

01:01:08.800 And I don't want the United States to participate in things that are counter to its interests or

01:01:13.980 counter to the values of Western civilization.

01:01:15.740 That's really simple.

01:01:16.360 So other countries do all kinds of abominable things, including cannibalism, a lot, actually,

01:01:23.060 and human sacrifice, a lot, actually.

01:01:25.960 And, you know, okay, they're not my country.

01:01:29.080 So I don't want the United States involved in anything that's morally indefensible or

01:01:33.760 counter to its own interests.

01:01:35.600 Period.

01:01:36.240 So Israel's dropping American bombs on Gaza, killing lots of children.

01:01:40.000 In order to...

01:01:40.840 You think the deaths of...

01:01:41.600 I'll tell you what I think.

01:01:42.740 Hang on.

01:01:43.120 Don't tell me what I think.

01:01:43.960 You think the killing...

01:01:45.620 You think the killing of civilians is morally indefensible.

01:01:49.140 Let me tell you what I think.

01:01:49.960 So American bombs are being used to kill a lot of children and women in Gaza.

01:01:54.320 I hate that.

01:01:55.440 Is it morally...

01:01:55.960 Let me tell you what I...

01:01:56.580 Is it morally indefensible?

01:01:57.820 I'm not going to...

01:01:58.300 Now you don't want to say?

01:02:00.660 I'm in the process of telling you.

01:02:02.700 Go on, then.

01:02:03.580 Stand back.

01:02:04.720 Let the flower bloom.

01:02:05.920 Okay?

01:02:06.480 Stop tending the garden, Pierce.

01:02:09.220 I hate the fact that civilians are killed with American weapons.

01:02:13.720 I hate it.

01:02:14.500 I hate it in Ukraine.

01:02:16.060 I hate it in Gaza.

01:02:17.220 I hate it in the occupied territories.

01:02:18.580 As do I.

01:02:18.940 Whatever we're calling them these days.

01:02:21.240 I think in the specific case of Israel, we have been closely allied with the Israeli government, you know, since the 1950s.

01:02:31.420 We're actually instrumental in the creation of Israel, so since the late 40s.

01:02:34.680 And I think that there are times when our interests have aligned and there are times, the transfer of military technology to China being one of them, where those interests diverge.

01:02:43.240 I would very much appreciate an environment in the United States where Americans could speak openly about what their money is doing in a bunch of different foreign countries, including that one.

01:02:51.860 And I think that we should reassess all our relationships, all our alliances with our allies on the basis of whether or not it's good for the United States on a bunch of different levels, economically, whether it's good for our internal politics, whether it's good for, you know, our power abroad, et cetera, et cetera.

01:03:08.220 And, yes, more than, you know, I really think that we need a much more honest conversation about our relationship with Israel.

01:03:17.580 And I feel, if I can just say one thing and brag, I feel like I'm one of the only people in the United States who's not emotional on the topic.

01:03:25.620 Everyone's so emotional about it.

01:03:27.060 They hate Israel.

01:03:28.100 They love Israel.

01:03:29.060 It's like, I'm American, okay?

01:03:30.900 I like Israel.

01:03:33.020 I don't love any country other than my own.

01:03:35.500 And I think we should have a rational conversation about this.

01:03:37.620 And at this point, as you well know, we don't.

01:03:40.620 So that's my actual position.

01:03:41.940 Yeah.

01:03:42.120 I mean, look, for what it's worth, my position is Israel had a fundamental duty, not just a right, but a duty to defend its people after October the 7th, given the horrendous scale of that attack.

01:03:52.080 And my only question I kept asking repeatedly from about the first couple of weeks onwards was what is a proportionate response?

01:03:59.300 What is morally justified?

01:04:01.260 In general, your relationships with your neighbors are your problem.

01:04:05.420 In my home.

01:04:06.140 Well, my neighbors, I own my house.

01:04:09.040 I can't leave easily.

01:04:10.480 But it's also an American problem because American military is being used.

01:04:12.920 No, but you make calculations about your behavior based on what you can achieve, based on what you think your interests are.

01:04:20.220 And that's true at the homeowner level.

01:04:22.140 And it's true at the nation level.

01:04:23.260 So you deal with your neighbors.

01:04:24.880 And that's your problem.

01:04:26.420 And if you're in a fight with your neighbors, it's up to you to resolve it.

01:04:28.640 It's not my problem.

01:04:29.320 I do not have to resolve your disputes with your neighbors.

01:04:32.280 And that is true of Ukraine.

01:04:34.480 And it's true of Israel.

01:04:36.300 I'm sorry.

01:04:37.040 I wish you well.

01:04:37.860 I may have, you know, obviously I like Israel because I like going there.

01:04:40.300 I know Israelis and I really like them.

01:04:41.720 I like Israel.

01:04:42.840 Oh, it's the best.

01:04:43.740 I mean, to visit, it's the best.

01:04:44.920 I like Israeli people.

01:04:46.220 I do too.

01:04:47.080 I like Palestinian people too that I've met.

01:04:48.920 I do too.

01:04:49.400 And there are a lot of Christians.

01:04:50.260 The one thing, I'll just be honest, since you're pushing me on this, that makes me a little bit emotional, is there are a lot of Christians, Christian Arabs.

01:04:58.060 And having traveled a lot, I can say just as a matter of personal preference, I really like them.

01:05:01.340 I've never met a Christian Arab that I didn't like, actually.

01:05:03.180 I think they're really amazing people.

01:05:04.880 And a lot of them have been killed or mistreated with American money and weapons.

01:05:08.680 And I think it's disgusting.

01:05:10.540 And I think it's especially disgusting that Christian leaders in the United States have said nothing because they're bullied and bought off.

01:05:15.460 And I think they should feel shame because they've dodged their duty, which is to speak up on behalf of their brothers in Christ.

01:05:22.680 And they haven't.

01:05:23.580 And there are Christians in Gaza who were killed.

01:05:25.320 There are a ton in the West Bank.

01:05:26.660 And by the way, that's the cradle of Christianity.

01:05:28.480 Where's the Church of the Nativity?

01:05:29.860 It's in Bethlehem.

01:05:30.920 The Pope calls a church in…

01:05:33.320 He's absurd.

01:05:34.080 I can't.

01:05:34.440 Yeah, but he actually calls a Catholic church in Gaza every night to see how they're doing.

01:05:39.220 Every night, apparently, he calls.

01:05:40.540 Yeah, that's the Pope thing.

01:05:42.280 I'm not getting involved.

01:05:43.180 I'm not a Catholic.

01:05:43.700 Sorry.

01:05:44.900 You're going to have to deal with him.

01:05:46.100 It's your Pope, not mine.

01:05:47.520 So we were in a meeting here at TCN the other day, and I looked around the room, and every other person had a kind of ruddy vitality.

01:05:56.140 Pink cheeks, alertness, bright eyes, full mental acuity, and a cheerfulness you could almost smell.

01:06:05.340 And I asked, why does everyone look so good?

01:06:08.780 And part of the answer, of course, is they like what we do for a living.

01:06:12.100 It's really interesting.

01:06:13.160 We think it's important.

01:06:14.560 But another reason everyone looks so good is because they'd all had a great night sleep.

01:06:21.720 I'm not making this up.

01:06:23.380 Almost everybody here uses a new sleep technology from a company called 8Sleep.

01:06:30.040 They sent it to us, and everyone here loves it.

01:06:32.900 It's called The Pod.

01:06:34.280 It's a high-tech mattress cover, effectively, that you add to your existing bed.

01:06:38.120 You don't need a new bed or anything like that.

01:06:39.820 You just throw this over what you have.

01:06:41.780 What it does is adjust the temperature of your bed, warmer or cooler, depending on what you want.

01:06:48.620 And it maintains an ideal sleeping environment all night long.

01:06:52.060 So I didn't know this, but as you progress through different phases of sleep, your body's needs change.

01:06:58.700 And 8Sleep automatically keeps things exactly where they should be in the sweet spot through the entire night.

01:07:05.120 It's been proven to increase the quality of your sleep, the amount you sleep every night.

01:07:11.260 It improves your recovery time from physical exertion, and it may even improve your cognitive performance and enhance your overall health.

01:07:19.560 It seems to be doing that in our office.

01:07:21.800 So it learns and adapts to your sleep patterns over time and automatically adjusts temperatures throughout the night through each phase of sleep.

01:07:29.460 And it does this independently for each sleeper on either side of the bed.

01:07:35.020 That's pretty cool.

01:07:36.100 So you can sleep well and feel much better and be more effective the next morning as we are here.

01:07:43.620 Try it for yourself.

01:07:45.160 Go to 8sleep.com slash Tucker.

01:07:47.760 Use the promo code Tucker to get an extra 350 bucks off the Pod 4 Ultra.

01:07:53.660 You can try it with zero obligation for a month, and if you don't like it, just send it back.

01:07:57.120 Again, that's 8sleep.com slash Tucker.

01:08:00.760 Better sleep today and look great in your morning meetings, as our guys do.

01:08:07.380 But in general, I'm speaking about the United States, Protestants of the United States.

01:08:10.960 That's the world that I'm from that I understand.

01:08:12.920 They have an obligation to stand up for their brother Christians around the world, and they don't in this specific case because they're intimidated.

01:08:21.460 And I think that's really shameful, and I think they should feel shame for it.

01:08:24.000 It's not a political question.

01:08:25.180 It's not, do you hate Israel?

01:08:26.980 It's like, I don't hate Israel.

01:08:30.080 Anybody who murders Christians, defenseless Christians, the religion of peace, the actual religion of peace, I'm opposed to that, and we should just say that.

01:08:38.560 It's not controversial.

01:08:39.440 It should not be controversial.

01:08:40.500 And it just shows how totally afraid and lacking self-confidence Christians are to just say, like, I'm sorry.

01:08:48.000 I'm not attacking me, but I'm opposed to that.

01:08:50.880 You can't use my money to kill Christians.

01:08:52.620 Blub a church.

01:08:53.340 No.

01:08:53.680 Or to storm the Church of the Nativity.

01:08:56.500 That's my religion.

01:08:57.380 No.

01:08:58.120 You don't get a dollar if you do that.

01:08:59.560 And by the way, we're not giving you any money until you promise to treat Christians as equals.

01:09:05.780 You know what I mean?

01:09:07.040 That's how I personally feel, and I think all Christians should feel that way.

01:09:10.280 It's not attacking anybody.

01:09:11.280 It's just a baseline demand of, like, dignity and respect, and they don't get it.

01:09:15.420 I mean, fundamentally—

01:09:16.020 That makes me emotional.

01:09:16.960 Yeah, look, fundamentally, we're not a million miles apart, and neither of us like war.

01:09:22.060 Nobody who likes war should ever be—

01:09:24.520 But one of us likes dictators.

01:09:26.100 No.

01:09:26.720 You do.

01:09:27.100 Yeah.

01:09:27.440 You do.

01:09:28.580 I didn't tweet out, I love you, Vladimir Putin.

01:09:30.880 You didn't need to.

01:09:31.460 You said it in your eyes.

01:09:35.120 But I didn't say it on Twitter.

01:09:37.540 You should have—you know what?

01:09:38.660 You should have been on Twitter.

01:09:39.500 You just said everyone thought you did.

01:09:40.800 Oh, I didn't.

01:09:41.540 I don't give a shit what people think, but I didn't tweet.

01:09:44.320 Vladimir Putin, you're fabulous, you're fabulous.

01:09:46.120 You didn't need to.

01:09:47.860 I didn't need to.

01:09:49.160 The body language said it for you.

01:09:50.500 No, I—

01:09:51.500 Started humping his leg in the interview?

01:09:54.680 No.

01:09:55.160 Anyway.

01:09:55.720 No, I just—I'm against dictatorship, and I don't want to send money to dictators.

01:09:59.420 Does it bother you that your tax dollars go to a dictator?

01:10:02.260 No, because I don't see Zelensky as a dictator in the way that you do.

01:10:05.980 If your prime minister decided not to have another election—

01:10:09.060 Zelensky literally been leader for what, two years?

01:10:12.560 Two years, I think.

01:10:13.540 He'd been in charge.

01:10:14.560 Putin, what's he into?

01:10:16.000 Nearly 30 years now?

01:10:16.900 I think Putin has been in 24.

01:10:21.900 24?

01:10:22.840 I'm not defending Putin.

01:10:23.940 I'm just saying, like, all dictatorship is bad.

01:10:26.500 Like, a little dollop of dictatorship is as bad as a mouthful of dictatorship.

01:10:30.920 I'm just against dictatorship.

01:10:33.060 I'm for democracy.

01:10:37.180 Inspiring, passionate, determined, and resolute.

01:10:41.100 That's what you called Zelensky.

01:10:42.620 Oh, I thought you were talking to me.

01:10:44.360 No, you were all of those things.

01:10:44.980 I thought that was your out for me.

01:10:47.840 Inspiring, passionate, determined, and resolute.

01:10:51.020 And very handsome, though.

01:10:51.980 That's implied.

01:10:52.580 I would agree with all of those things.

01:10:53.960 He would.

01:10:54.480 Yes.

01:10:54.660 He would.

01:10:55.080 I think the courage, the moral courage he showed on the night that the Russians invaded,

01:10:59.240 when people thought they would sweep through Keev and almost certainly kill him,

01:11:02.880 the fact he immediately went on social media and with people around him and said,

01:11:07.140 I'm not leaving.

01:11:08.020 I'm staying here for you.

01:11:09.080 That's moral courage.

01:11:10.320 Of the kind we saw with Trump when he stood there and got back up and went fight, fight, fight.

01:11:14.440 When he assassinates his political opponents, or when he steals USAID or he allows his generals

01:11:20.640 to sell half the missiles they get from the United States to the Mexican drug cartels and Iran

01:11:25.260 and everyone else on the black market, is that inspiring?

01:11:27.720 Well, you're making a lot of allegations against him.

01:11:29.720 Those are facts.

01:11:30.640 Okay.

01:11:31.040 You say they're facts, but other people dispute them.

01:11:33.900 Who disputes that they're selling weapons in Ukraine on the black market?

01:11:37.980 I don't think anyone disputes.

01:11:38.800 I'm sure that's happening.

01:11:40.260 Oh, it's happening.

01:11:41.040 Yeah.

01:11:41.840 Who disputes that Zelensky's murdered his political opponents?

01:11:45.400 No one.

01:11:45.920 Has he?

01:11:46.740 You think he personally has ordered the murders?

01:11:49.520 Well, he's in charge of the country.

01:11:50.800 He's the dictator.

01:11:51.120 Do you think he has?

01:11:51.500 He's the dictator.

01:11:52.280 You just said he did.

01:11:53.860 Well, I mean, in the same sense that we would say...

01:11:56.340 You wouldn't dispute that Vladimir Putin does that relentlessly, that he imprisons and

01:12:00.700 tortures and kills.

01:12:01.760 Oh, yeah.

01:12:02.400 No, I think there's a long history of that in the region, poisoning your enemies.

01:12:07.220 Putin has done that.

01:12:07.900 It seems clear to me.

01:12:09.500 I'm not sending him money.

01:12:10.700 I'm not calling him passionate, determined, resolute, and handsome.

01:12:14.060 You hate this.

01:12:15.440 I love this.

01:12:16.360 I don't hate it.

01:12:17.080 I know.

01:12:17.360 Because I keep asking you the same question, and for some reason, you don't want to answer

01:12:20.180 it.

01:12:20.820 No, I've answered all questions.

01:12:22.820 Let me ask you a really easy question.

01:12:24.200 Now that you have been, like me, fired from your cushy mainstream media gig, how much

01:12:33.740 happy are you, and why?

01:12:36.880 And looking back at the television networks and newspapers, how many newspapers do you

01:12:41.880 work for?

01:12:42.580 I ran two of the big ones in the UK.

01:12:44.340 Yeah, right.

01:12:44.740 But over your whole career, how many did you work for?

01:12:46.420 I worked for three.

01:12:47.460 Four, four, actually.

01:12:48.180 Okay, right.

01:12:48.640 So you've been at every stage of British media.

01:12:51.540 Looking back, how do you feel about them?

01:12:53.800 I think I had the best of it, really.

01:12:55.740 I certainly think in newspaper terms, it was before the internet had really taken hold.

01:13:00.100 And so you were the receptacle for news for people.

01:13:04.560 You know, there weren't many television networks.

01:13:06.700 You didn't really have cable television when I was running the papers.

01:13:09.960 So papers have much more influence and much more power because they were bringing the

01:13:14.180 news to people.

01:13:15.020 People woke up in the morning and they would read their paper to find out what had happened.

01:13:18.280 That doesn't happen anymore.

01:13:19.480 People already know what's happened.

01:13:21.120 There are millions of news networks all over cable news.

01:13:23.840 There's millions of internet sites.

01:13:25.880 You can get the news.

01:13:26.480 Everyone knows what's going on.

01:13:27.860 So the point and relevance and power and influence of newspapers has dissipated.

01:13:33.560 They can still break big stories and have big influence.

01:13:36.440 And if I was running one again, A, I'd be completely digital by now.

01:13:39.840 I'd just abandon print papers altogether.

01:13:41.920 But the economic model is very difficult if you do that.

01:13:44.500 You don't make as much from the digital side as you do from print.

01:13:47.420 So they've got to weigh that up and somehow get through it.

01:13:49.460 But I would invest heavily in investigative, longer-term journalism because that's how you

01:13:53.860 can now bring news to people they don't already know.

01:13:56.860 Well, sure.

01:13:57.320 But I meant all true.

01:13:58.640 Totally true.

01:13:59.160 But I'm really asking about the honesty level.

01:14:02.440 Yeah, yeah.

01:14:02.900 So now you have a gig where you can say whatever you want.

01:14:05.800 You're your own boss.

01:14:07.400 You can make a real living.

01:14:09.000 I have no idea how you're doing, but given your numbers are huge.

01:14:12.680 So I bet you you're probably making more than you made before.

01:14:15.300 We're in that range anyway.

01:14:17.120 So it's all great.

01:14:18.200 But the greatest part is you can say exactly what you want.

01:14:21.680 How would you compare that to your previous case?

01:14:23.600 I would say the difference is we can't get cancelled, right?

01:14:26.980 Who's going to cancel us?

01:14:28.020 Ourselves.

01:14:29.200 So we have a complete freedom and a sort of liberation from the restrictions that inevitably

01:14:34.040 come with working for big companies.

01:14:36.340 Big companies in the media have really struggled, I think, to move with the way young people now

01:14:42.920 get their information.

01:14:44.460 They don't really understand the big legacy media companies that young people do not watch

01:14:50.140 linear television.

01:14:51.680 They don't read print newspapers.

01:14:53.780 What they've really struggled with is to stop lying.

01:14:56.060 They can't stop lying.

01:14:57.000 They're like compulsive liars.

01:14:58.340 And they have controlled the way news is detonated.

01:15:01.720 The thing about you and me and other people that do this, whether you're on the left or the

01:15:05.340 right, there's no control, right?

01:15:06.680 We don't get controlled by anybody.

01:15:08.420 We're only answerable to ourselves and what we want to do.

01:15:10.840 I think I'm like you in the sense of we're not politically aligned in many ways, but we

01:15:15.400 love talking to each other, love debating, love arguing, love asking questions, love

01:15:20.080 learning.

01:15:20.740 I think we are politically aligned.

01:15:22.540 I think...

01:15:22.940 We are in many ways.

01:15:23.620 You do own guns.

01:15:24.840 I know that you do.

01:15:25.780 I know that you do.

01:15:27.100 And I know that you think this whole Ukraine thing is insane.

01:15:30.060 Let me tell you.

01:15:30.640 Well, I don't.

01:15:31.200 But let me tell you...

01:15:31.680 I know that you do.

01:15:32.680 I can see it in your eyes.

01:15:34.240 Like, how do I get out of this?

01:15:35.560 There's a lot of military in my family who know how to use guns better than me.

01:15:39.020 I know, but not all use of guns is equal, right?

01:15:44.280 Some is counterproductive.

01:15:45.240 You know the thing about guns?

01:15:46.700 I'll just say this for your audience.

01:15:48.240 It will all be looking at me thinking I'm the 2A gun grabber.

01:15:51.460 The reality is it's a complete cultural difference.

01:15:53.700 In my country, everybody used to have a gun.

01:15:56.400 Everybody used to in the old days.

01:15:58.440 Now, very few people have guns.

01:16:00.320 There are incredibly tight restrictions.

01:16:02.520 And the consequence of that is we have almost zero gun crime.

01:16:06.740 The...

01:16:07.180 Was your country...

01:16:08.060 Is London safe now?

01:16:08.860 I know.

01:16:09.260 I'm about to come to that.

01:16:10.560 The problem we have is with knights, right?

01:16:13.160 So, I'm not saying for a moment you get rid of all the guns, nobody gets killed.

01:16:16.040 Of course they do.

01:16:16.680 We have a knife crime problem epidemic in our country.

01:16:19.420 No, you have a people problem.

01:16:20.900 You have the kind of people who stab each other.

01:16:22.980 Well...

01:16:23.160 And you didn't used to have that.

01:16:24.340 Well, we did.

01:16:25.100 We did.

01:16:25.660 No, you didn't.

01:16:26.320 We did.

01:16:26.580 I mean, it's measurable.

01:16:27.420 How many people got stabbed in London in 1970 or shot compared to now?

01:16:31.360 Sure, but there are...

01:16:31.860 It's a massive increase because the people, the attitudes of the people, the actions of the people

01:16:36.940 are totally different.

01:16:37.440 You've got different people and different behaviors.

01:16:39.700 And like, you can't admit that because I'm not sure why.

01:16:42.280 No, no.

01:16:42.620 Because actually, there are lots of white English people who stab each other.

01:16:46.620 Oh, I know.

01:16:47.260 Right.

01:16:47.540 Oh, I know.

01:16:48.060 So, it's not just about the influx of migrants, if that's what you're saying.

01:16:51.360 No, I'm not saying that.

01:16:52.500 I'm saying that I do think immigration has changed your country for the much, much worse.

01:16:56.520 Well, it's certainly changed the country.

01:16:58.140 Much worse.

01:16:58.800 That's my opinion.

01:16:59.560 But it's not just immigrants who are behaving badly at all.

01:17:02.060 There are a lot of native-born indigenous Brits who are behaving badly.

01:17:04.540 That is totally true.

01:17:06.100 And there are a lot of immigrants in your country who are kind of superior, actually,

01:17:10.240 if we're being totally honest, who are really impressive.

01:17:12.520 Yeah.

01:17:13.080 I'm not thinking Blake and Saban.

01:17:13.900 But I'm just saying that the behavior has changed of the people who live there, right?

01:17:17.520 You can't be trusted with guns now because you're out of control.

01:17:20.660 None of that.

01:17:21.400 I just know we have very tight gun laws and no gun violence.

01:17:23.900 The interest of...

01:17:24.460 Well, very little.

01:17:25.520 My question for you...

01:17:26.540 But do you own a gun secretly?

01:17:28.180 I do not, no.

01:17:29.200 Do you want to?

01:17:29.820 You know why?

01:17:30.220 I get five years in prison if I got caught with it.

01:17:32.880 So, you're afraid of your government, which doesn't trust you because it's a dictatorship.

01:17:36.480 No, let me ask you a question about guns since you raised him.

01:17:39.000 I'm curious.

01:17:39.680 Yeah, yeah.

01:17:40.560 It's said there are over 400 million guns in circulation in America.

01:17:43.900 I hope so.

01:17:44.960 And it's apparently a million new guns get sold every month.

01:17:48.160 So, that number exponentially rises.

01:17:50.360 The number of mass shootings in America is also rising.

01:17:54.920 Do you think anything should be done about that?

01:17:57.320 If I had my time again talking about this with Americans, I would never have been so censorious.

01:18:02.060 I would never have been talking about gun control.

01:18:04.860 I think the word control alienates Americans.

01:18:06.720 But what I would have said was, how do you make it safer?

01:18:09.140 How do you stop so many people getting shot?

01:18:11.980 What do you do about it?

01:18:13.900 Well, you ban SSRIs immediately.

01:18:16.380 Immediately.

01:18:16.860 You ban?

01:18:17.820 SSRIs.

01:18:18.420 You ban whole categories.

01:18:20.640 The medication.

01:18:21.060 Psychoaptic.

01:18:21.700 Yeah, absolutely.

01:18:22.860 Yeah.

01:18:23.000 Like, immediately.

01:18:23.660 Yeah, I mean, the truth is that, you know, drugs and alcohol drive a lot of our social ills.

01:18:33.160 A lot of them.

01:18:34.480 And when people are sober, and I would say, you know, if you're on Xanax or Prozac or whatever, you're not sober.

01:18:40.500 Right.

01:18:40.760 I agree.

01:18:41.140 But certainly alcohol and meth and, you know, most of our social problems are either caused or exacerbated by the drugs that people take.

01:18:51.200 That's just a fact.

01:18:52.000 And mass shootings are definitely in that category.

01:18:54.140 So, look, as you found out, your knife crime has just exponentially jumped recently.

01:19:01.180 Yeah.

01:19:01.380 And that's not because there are more knives.

01:19:03.660 People use them at dinner every night and have for hundreds of years and not since the Roman times they've used knives and not stabbed each other.

01:19:08.620 It's because people are behaving differently.

01:19:11.200 Yeah, that's true.

01:19:11.380 Why is that?

01:19:12.040 That's true.

01:19:12.580 I must say, all the gun control people who want to send all the guns to Ukraine so they can go kill other Eastern Europeans, it's like, it's sort of weird.

01:19:20.680 Do you think that's weird?

01:19:21.980 No, one of the things that's weird about the question I asked you is simply that if I was an American…

01:19:26.000 There's a lot of gun crime in Ukraine.

01:19:27.320 Are you adding to that?

01:19:28.280 Well, it's a war.

01:19:29.060 It's a different thing.

01:19:29.580 It's gun crime.

01:19:30.260 I call it gun crime.

01:19:31.400 People getting killed with guns.

01:19:32.280 You think Ukraine defending itself is a crime?

01:19:35.080 I think there are a lot of people getting killed with guns, and I think it's really sad, and we should disarm Ukraine.

01:19:39.760 Really?

01:19:40.720 Well, sure, people are getting killed with guns.

01:19:42.260 They shouldn't have.

01:19:42.640 There should be strict controls on guns in Ukraine.

01:19:44.180 The automatic weapons.

01:19:45.280 You guys are sending automatic weapons to Ukraine to kill other human beings.

01:19:49.020 I just think that I'm just not comfortable with that morally.

01:19:53.760 I see what you're doing, Tugger.

01:19:55.260 You're doing the British Cheshire cat thing with me.

01:19:58.780 No, because I think it's a fatuous argument, but it's fine.

01:20:03.760 Fatuous meaning brilliant?

01:20:04.780 You're avoiding answering my question.

01:20:06.840 Which is, why do we have so many guns?

01:20:08.220 No, no.

01:20:08.420 Because we're free.

01:20:08.820 No, no, didn't ask that.

01:20:09.660 We're free, because no one can tell us.

01:20:10.760 We can't defend ourselves.

01:20:11.740 We all used to have guns, too.

01:20:13.380 No, we don't.

01:20:13.520 And then you guys, after the Second World War, which was like a liberation war, and you won, you lost all your freedom, and now you can't even express your political opinions, or they put you in jail.

01:20:21.680 So, like, how did you win?

01:20:24.040 How did you win?

01:20:25.320 Is that what victory looks like?

01:20:26.440 You lose all your rights?

01:20:28.160 Your economy gets destroyed?

01:20:29.360 You know what we won?

01:20:29.900 You're controlled by bankers?

01:20:30.640 And all of a sudden, oh, I won!

01:20:32.060 We won because I'm not conducting this interview in German, which I wouldn't be.

01:20:34.780 So it's a linguistic thing.

01:20:35.520 So I'd rather not speak German and be goose-stepping around my yard in England, yeah.

01:20:40.700 Goose-stepping?

01:20:41.300 Yeah.

01:20:41.660 But you are goose-stepping.

01:20:42.560 People are arrested for praying.

01:20:43.740 We literally won our freedom.

01:20:45.820 Where's your freedom?

01:20:46.480 Where's your freedom?

01:20:47.120 You can get arrested.

01:20:47.620 I'm as free as you could possibly want a human being to be.

01:20:50.140 You can't defend yourself, you can't control who comes into your country, and you can't

01:20:53.940 criticize government policies, or you get arrested.

01:20:56.840 So how are you free?

01:20:57.880 You're a slave, aren't you?

01:20:59.280 No.

01:21:00.080 Really?

01:21:00.540 How free are you?

01:21:01.260 We have cultural problems in our country and societal problems.

01:21:04.240 Facebook right now and say, I don't want any more immigrants in my country.

01:21:06.840 They're making it worse.

01:21:08.180 You could say that, what you couldn't say, because a lot of these stories, I have to say,

01:21:12.120 in America have been spun completely disingenuously.

01:21:15.840 There's one case, for example, I see everyone trying to send me as an example of, Britain's

01:21:21.140 gone mad, Elon Musk has done it.

01:21:22.620 It's a guy who got seven years in prison.

01:21:24.340 Actually, what he was doing, this guy, was he was orchestrating and directing, rioting

01:21:31.020 on hotels containing asylum seekers, because he had an incorrect belief that someone who

01:21:36.880 had stabbed three young girls to death and stabbed loads of others in a horrific

01:21:41.000 attack was an illegal asylum seeker.

01:21:43.580 Maybe he doesn't want asylum seekers in his country.

01:21:45.620 I mean, is that okay?

01:21:46.400 Fine.

01:21:46.720 It's not okay to have no asylum seekers.

01:21:48.880 It is not okay to allow too many people to come in.

01:21:51.460 Why is it not okay to have no asylum seekers?

01:21:52.360 It's not okay to have a broken asylum system as we have.

01:21:54.760 Why have any asylum seekers?

01:21:56.000 Because I believe you should as a good country.

01:21:57.840 Because we're a caring, compassionate country.

01:21:59.700 And by the way, Britain, for all your knocking of Britain-

01:22:01.800 How is that caring, compassionate?

01:22:02.760 Your native population is in massive decline.

01:22:05.080 How is that compassionate to your people?

01:22:07.380 Britain actually is one of the most tolerant multicultural countries in the world, to this

01:22:11.760 day.

01:22:12.060 Then why do you have so many stabbings?

01:22:14.040 We have a problem with stabbings.

01:22:15.420 But you know what?

01:22:16.320 How many people get killed by stabbings a year in Britain compared-

01:22:19.200 It's evidence, dude.

01:22:19.880 Hang on.

01:22:20.140 You have a problem.

01:22:21.100 We're very compassionate.

01:22:22.220 We do have a lot of stabbings.

01:22:23.200 Fine.

01:22:23.500 But by your criteria, they're just defending themselves.

01:22:25.900 Haven't they got a right to bear arms?

01:22:27.860 Okay.

01:22:28.320 Well, hang on.

01:22:28.780 Have they?

01:22:28.960 Well, hang on.

01:22:29.900 Really any stabbings.

01:22:30.720 Hang on.

01:22:30.940 Now you've got a ton of stabbings, but everything's totally fine.

01:22:33.760 And if you complain about it, you're going to jail.

01:22:35.680 Do the British people have a right to bear arms, Tucker?

01:22:38.600 All free people have a right to defend themselves.

01:22:40.640 Bear arms?

01:22:41.780 Of course.

01:22:42.320 Yeah.

01:22:42.540 How do you defend themselves?

01:22:42.620 They can carry knives.

01:22:44.680 So why are you annoyed about the knife crime?

01:22:46.120 I'm against all crime.

01:22:50.500 Look, here's my only point.

01:22:52.240 I'm sure if they use the Tucker Carlson argument, well, the other guy's got a knife.

01:22:54.900 I better carry one.

01:22:55.280 In the United States, which is governed by a system we inherited with great gratitude

01:22:58.980 from you, from the English, a person has a right, which is, we believe, God-given.

01:23:05.460 It's inherent.

01:23:06.100 We were born with it because we're not slaves.

01:23:07.500 We're free people.

01:23:08.540 To say what he thinks is true.

01:23:10.300 Period.

01:23:10.880 Period.

01:23:11.460 And government has to not only not infringe on that right, but protect it.

01:23:14.780 It exists to protect that right.

01:23:16.560 Your system is a little different.

01:23:17.460 We took it a little farther and enshrined that in our Bill of Rights, which unfortunately

01:23:20.380 you don't have.

01:23:20.960 I bet you wish you did.

01:23:22.480 But from an American perspective, the idea that you would ever punish someone for talking.

01:23:28.160 But that wasn't why that guy was punished.

01:23:30.200 But that may be right.

01:23:31.760 I would not contest that.

01:23:33.240 It is right.

01:23:33.900 He was literally inciting a right.

01:23:35.000 But you would have to not contest that there are hundreds of people who've gone to jail

01:23:37.420 in the last five years in the UK for expressing opinions.

01:23:40.080 That is a fact.

01:23:40.640 It depends what you think that opinion is.

01:23:42.700 Most of them have been directing violence or inciting violence.

01:23:45.500 That's different.

01:23:46.820 I don't think that's right, Pierce.

01:23:48.240 It is.

01:23:48.600 I don't think they were charged with that.

01:23:50.120 That is right.

01:23:50.620 Okay.

01:23:51.040 And also, look at the case of Tommy Robinson.

01:23:53.520 Tommy Robinson, most Americans I speak to think he's in jail as some kind of political

01:23:58.380 prisoner like Nelson Mandela for having views about it.

01:24:02.260 Or Julian Assange.

01:24:03.060 Yeah, but that's not why Tommy Robinson's in jail because he defamed a young Syrian refugee.

01:24:07.920 He defamed?

01:24:08.120 Yeah, he lied about him.

01:24:09.160 Okay.

01:24:09.880 Well, he did.

01:24:10.780 But he was then...

01:24:11.520 No, the guy eventually...

01:24:12.480 How many of your leaders have gone to jail for lying?

01:24:14.420 What?

01:24:15.220 How many of your leaders have gone to jail for lying?

01:24:17.440 They lie constantly.

01:24:18.220 Every time they speak, they lie.

01:24:18.680 Not enough.

01:24:19.760 It's not enough.

01:24:20.280 Right around zero, actually.

01:24:21.960 But they throw powerless people in jail for saying things they don't like.

01:24:25.580 But you also have a defamation law in the United States.

01:24:27.940 People have gone to jail for breaking that law.

01:24:30.340 That's happened.

01:24:31.260 So you're not so pure yourself.

01:24:32.540 I don't think you have criminal...

01:24:33.080 Yes, you do.

01:24:33.980 Criminal defamation, you do.

01:24:35.460 I'm going to...

01:24:35.980 Go and check it.

01:24:37.100 Go and check it.

01:24:37.780 Okay.

01:24:38.120 There's a lawyer sitting right there, but he's occupied...

01:24:39.500 And you've had people go to prison in America for defamation.

01:24:43.840 For libeling people.

01:24:44.920 For saying things that you don't like.

01:24:46.900 It's happened.

01:24:49.560 I'm just pausing because I don't know if that's true.

01:24:51.700 It is true.

01:24:51.940 I think I would be opposed to that.

01:24:53.060 It is true.

01:24:54.300 Do people go to jail in the United States for defamation?

01:24:56.380 Yep.

01:24:56.980 They face civil judgment.

01:24:58.120 They face civil judgment.

01:24:59.160 People have gone to jail.

01:25:00.100 I'm making this up out of nothing.

01:25:01.280 No, I'm not.

01:25:01.620 Go and check it.

01:25:02.280 Oh, let me check with an actual American.

01:25:03.580 People have been...

01:25:04.080 You're an American, right?

01:25:05.200 This is my college roommate.

01:25:06.460 I was born in the UK.

01:25:08.140 Oh, he was born in the UK.

01:25:09.240 But this is my college roommate.

01:25:10.160 He's an attorney.

01:25:11.060 I had all this debate.

01:25:11.920 I had all this debate on Twitter recently.

01:25:14.720 People are...

01:25:15.160 I think there's a criminal defamation.

01:25:16.340 There is.

01:25:17.300 Where?

01:25:17.980 Go and check it.

01:25:19.180 In certain states.

01:25:20.180 Thank you.

01:25:20.880 Has anyone gone to jail for that?

01:25:22.120 Thank you.

01:25:22.600 I've never heard of that.

01:25:23.520 Sorry, the British guy is now telling Americans about their own law.

01:25:26.740 I'm unpleased, obviously, but...

01:25:28.420 I think I'm going to dismiss that as a shirt.

01:25:33.580 Take the fifth?

01:25:33.880 I've never...

01:25:34.360 No, no, no.

01:25:34.740 I'll take the fifth.

01:25:35.340 But the point is, you should never allow anybody in your country to go to jail for having unpopular opinions.

01:25:42.580 It depends if they're inciting violence.

01:25:44.400 That's the criteria.

01:25:45.040 What does that even mean?

01:25:45.860 I do think, by the way, for what it's worth, that some people have been put in jail for saying stuff on Facebook because they shouldn't have been in jail.

01:25:52.740 I agree with that.

01:25:53.960 The Criminal Prosecution Service, CPS, shared a video in X warning people about using social media.

01:25:59.300 And it stated this, and I'm quoting.

01:26:00.920 I can't do the English accent, but this is what they say.

01:26:02.540 Try.

01:26:02.700 Think before you post, exclamation point.

01:26:06.180 Content that incites violence or hatred isn't just harmful, it can be illegal.

01:26:12.920 Paging George Orwell.

01:26:14.120 The CPS takes online violence seriously and will prosecute when the legal test is met.

01:26:18.440 Remind those close to you to share responsibility or face the consequences.

01:26:22.560 That's just like North Korea at that point.

01:26:24.580 You're inciting hatred?

01:26:26.200 If you're inciting violence against people.

01:26:27.760 No, no, or hatred.

01:26:29.040 Right, but the violence you'd agree with.

01:26:30.660 Inciting violence?

01:26:31.560 I don't know what that means.

01:26:32.280 It means you literally direct people to go and attack an asylum, Zeke O'Dell.

01:26:35.960 No, that's directing violence.

01:26:37.560 Inciting violence.

01:26:38.240 Well, that's the same thing.

01:26:39.000 No, it's not the same.

01:26:39.880 It's not the same.

01:26:40.820 So if I say, Piers, I want you to go-

01:26:44.540 Go and beat up Alex.

01:26:45.400 Right.

01:26:45.940 That's inciting and directing violence.

01:26:48.620 It's the same thing.

01:26:49.260 But then I could, you could say-

01:26:50.600 Same thing.

01:26:51.060 It's not the same.

01:26:52.020 Your government-

01:26:52.380 What's the difference?

01:26:52.880 Hold on.

01:26:53.220 I'll tell you what the difference is.

01:26:54.180 Your government is saying that some opinions are so inflammatory that they inspire people

01:27:00.440 to commit acts of violence.

01:27:01.840 Yes.

01:27:02.520 Okay.

01:27:03.600 That is a definition that justifies censorship.

01:27:08.400 If you want my honest opinion, some of the ones who've gone to prison should not be in prison.

01:27:12.500 How about inciting hatred?

01:27:14.140 Well, it depends what you're-

01:27:15.160 What does that even mean?

01:27:15.800 How do you measure hatred?

01:27:18.460 Do you have a hatred meter?

01:27:20.900 Me?

01:27:21.860 Does UK government.

01:27:22.780 I mean, you're defending it.

01:27:23.820 No, no.

01:27:24.080 I'm not defending it.

01:27:24.960 I'm literally telling you I'm not defending that.

01:27:26.880 I'm saying there are people who've been put in prison.

01:27:28.440 Why don't you overthrow your government?

01:27:29.560 It's a tyrannical government.

01:27:31.040 I will always support people's right to have hateful views.

01:27:33.980 That's fine.

01:27:34.600 I don't agree with the government.

01:27:35.600 But it's a crime.

01:27:36.440 I don't agree with that.

01:27:37.400 Right?

01:27:37.840 But it depends what they're saying.

01:27:38.940 What are you doing to overthrow the tyranny that enslave you?

01:27:41.620 If the incitement of hatred makes people go and commit acts of violence, and you intend it to, that should be a crime.

01:27:48.720 You shouldn't incite people to go and commit acts of violence.

01:27:52.020 But if I say something that the government doesn't like, and this is, of course, it's all self-preservation here.

01:27:56.560 They're not.

01:27:57.420 No one is ever penalized for attacking.

01:28:01.560 If you get up and you say, I hate Vladimir Putin and all Russians, you're not going to go to jail in the UK for that because that's the official policy of your government.

01:28:08.740 You wouldn't go to the president of the UK.

01:28:10.200 No!

01:28:10.720 No, no, but you wouldn't.

01:28:11.340 They could lynch Russians, and they'd be like, well, you have a right to say that.

01:28:14.380 Yeah, but you asked me earlier, if you said you hate immigrants, you wouldn't go to prison for that.

01:28:17.700 If you said that they're all over there in that hotel, go and throw firebombs at it, that should be a crime, shouldn't it?

01:28:24.200 Yeah, if you're telling people to go commit acts of violence.

01:28:25.880 That's what most of these cases involve.

01:28:27.600 No, it's not.

01:28:28.460 That's not what it said.

01:28:29.420 That's not true.

01:28:30.280 No, the cases you're talking about are people who've been in prison.

01:28:32.400 Content that incites hatred isn't just harmful, it can be illegal.

01:28:37.360 So my criteria.

01:28:38.720 Okay, but I'm talking about your government, and I'm asking why.

01:28:40.900 I told you I don't agree with it.

01:28:42.300 Well, that's dictatorship, from what I can tell.

01:28:44.500 I don't, yes.

01:28:45.460 How is it not dictatorship?

01:28:46.460 The government is saying things that we hate are illegal, but it puts you in prison.

01:28:49.880 I'm half agreeing with you.

01:28:50.980 Yeah, good.

01:28:51.500 Right?

01:28:51.660 So what are you doing to change it?

01:28:53.160 So you've got a prime minister now.

01:28:54.840 I'm on my show regularly saying I think it's wrong.

01:28:57.080 But at a certain point, don't people have a right to do what the American colonists did,

01:29:02.260 and that's to throw off tyranny, because their rights are inherent.

01:29:05.660 They're given by God because they're human beings.

01:29:07.020 So you want them to be violent?

01:29:08.640 Of course not.

01:29:09.280 I'm totally opposed to violence.

01:29:10.260 You're the one who was justifying firebombing stuff.

01:29:12.220 Wasn't the example you just gave, wasn't it conducted with violence?

01:29:15.380 Of course not.

01:29:16.440 But you should be single-minded in getting a government that permits people to live like

01:29:23.400 human beings, not like slaves.

01:29:24.980 Right?

01:29:25.420 I don't think anyone should be able to use on social media, they shouldn't be using

01:29:31.760 rhetoric, which is inciting violence, period.

01:29:35.160 Hate, I think this idea of what is hate is a much more complex thing.

01:29:39.580 I don't feel comfortable with somebody who believes in free speech in people saying hateful

01:29:42.860 things and being put in prison.

01:29:44.080 It's wrong.

01:29:44.920 It should be happening.

01:29:45.320 Well, inciting violence is an absurd standard because, and they tried to take me out many

01:29:49.760 times with this, some wacko will go shoot innocents and be like, he watched this show,

01:29:54.220 or he had the same opinions as you.

01:29:56.260 It's like, I couldn't be more against violence.

01:29:58.020 I'm mad at my government because it funds violence around the world.

01:30:01.900 So inciting violence is just a way to get your critics to shut up.

01:30:04.920 So you need to loot their country and wreck it.

01:30:06.940 But if I say to people here, can you come and stab Tucker?

01:30:09.700 Okay, but that's not inciting.

01:30:11.460 That's like directing.

01:30:12.940 It's like being a criminal master.

01:30:14.400 I think you'll find, look, I may be wrong, but I'm rarely wrong in linguistic matters.

01:30:19.320 I think you'll find the definition of inciting and directing is not dissimilar.

01:30:24.220 You know as well as I, and I don't know why you would defend it, that your government

01:30:28.140 is stifling criticism of itself, of its own illegitimate leadership using law enforcement.

01:30:35.460 I think in relation to hate crime, yes, they've overreached on that.

01:30:40.640 In relation to using social media-

01:30:42.600 But they've flooded your country-

01:30:43.800 We had riots last summer.

01:30:44.920 And that's very unpopular with the native population.

01:30:47.660 Always has been.

01:30:48.500 Always has been.

01:30:49.300 And the government for 40 years has told them, in increasing volume, to shut up and

01:30:54.260 stop complaining.

01:30:54.940 And now it's putting them in jail for complaining about it.

01:30:56.540 That's the truth.

01:30:57.500 It's not as simplistic as that.

01:30:59.260 Of course it's not as simplistic as that.

01:31:01.000 Of course not.

01:31:01.880 I agree.

01:31:02.940 I'm over-generalizing.

01:31:04.940 By the way, you wouldn't have a country without a flood of immigrants.

01:31:08.600 America wouldn't exist.

01:31:10.000 But you're not America.

01:31:10.820 You have a native population.

01:31:12.000 It's been there since the beginning of time.

01:31:13.100 Why would you object to the concept of a flood of immigrants?

01:31:15.260 You literally got built on it.

01:31:16.580 Well, look what happened to your country.

01:31:17.660 Hmm?

01:31:18.500 I'm talking about your country.

01:31:19.740 But my country is, by its nature, different.

01:31:23.040 Built on the premise of immigrants.

01:31:25.100 You're a monarchy run by the head of your church.

01:31:27.900 There's a monarchy here.

01:31:29.060 Right.

01:31:29.500 And they're living as they should, which is consistent with their values.

01:31:33.720 And your country isn't.

01:31:35.300 So that's all I'm saying.

01:31:36.140 I think our monarchy, well, I think the king's a fine man.

01:31:40.080 Really?

01:31:41.040 My king, yes.

01:31:43.140 What has he done to preserve England?

01:31:47.100 Preserve England?

01:31:47.980 Yeah.

01:31:48.220 What do you mean?

01:31:49.700 Well, I don't know.

01:31:50.520 I mean, it...

01:31:51.360 Well, he's a Christian.

01:31:52.100 He's the head of the...

01:31:53.120 What is it?

01:31:53.620 He's the head of the Church of England.

01:31:54.660 Yeah, he does.

01:31:55.620 Yeah.

01:31:56.020 How's church attendance?

01:31:57.920 He goes quite regularly.

01:31:59.940 Come on.

01:32:00.420 It's all a joke, dude.

01:32:02.240 You had a Christian country.

01:32:03.380 Now you don't.

01:32:04.320 So that's not a win.

01:32:05.660 That's a failure.

01:32:06.220 We have a far less Christian country.

01:32:07.820 I agree.

01:32:08.720 Yeah.

01:32:08.980 I'm sad about that as a Christian.

01:32:10.080 Can I ask you, Keir Starmer seems like the most unpopular...

01:32:16.400 Now that Trudeau's gone, the most unpopular leader in the West.

01:32:20.460 He's certainly gone from winning with a big majority last summer to being incredibly unpopular

01:32:24.700 very quickly.

01:32:27.120 Can he hang on?

01:32:28.180 You've got four more years of this-ish?

01:32:30.340 Is that right?

01:32:30.860 Yeah.

01:32:31.180 I mean, yeah.

01:32:31.760 I would say that there's a reasonable chance he will contest at the next election in four

01:32:35.760 years' time.

01:32:36.180 It depends, really, how the next year goes.

01:32:38.720 I mean, I've never seen anyone lose such political capital so quickly.

01:32:44.180 Yes.

01:32:44.440 And he did it because he came in and decided that the strategy he would do is to say the

01:32:48.840 Tories were so awful that the country's now in a terrible state, so bad that we're going

01:32:54.440 to have to do all these punitive taxes, and we're going to have to whack the pensioners,

01:32:58.580 and we're going to have to whack the farmers and punish all these groups of people.

01:33:02.280 And everyone was like, wow, you've waited 14 years in opposition, and this is what you're

01:33:07.960 doing?

01:33:08.100 What did the farmers do wrong?

01:33:08.960 I never understood that.

01:33:10.220 They make our food.

01:33:11.640 I mean, it's ridiculous.

01:33:12.540 Most of them live literally-

01:33:13.820 Because British food's not good?

01:33:15.180 Is that the problem?

01:33:15.720 Most of them lose money, farmers.

01:33:17.280 And the idea, he created the impression that a lot of pensioners can afford it, a lot of farmers

01:33:21.300 can afford it.

01:33:21.800 Actually, most of them can't.

01:33:23.400 Most of them can't.

01:33:23.940 But why would you target farmers?

01:33:25.140 I mean, it's just-

01:33:25.740 Inexplicable.

01:33:26.360 But it's happened throughout Europe and the United States, attacking farmers, and it

01:33:31.020 seems like part of a bigger-

01:33:31.880 Should reward farmers.

01:33:33.540 Farmers are the lifeblood of any civilized country.

01:33:35.860 But I guess what I'm saying is, right, but if you're looking big picture, if you're opposed

01:33:39.120 to famine, and you're for human flourishing and people, then you'd want to do whatever

01:33:45.080 you could to have enough food.

01:33:47.600 I agree.

01:33:48.420 And if country by country by country, Germany, Great Britain, Denmark, Holland, they're all

01:33:54.200 attacking farmers, United States, maybe there's a bigger anti-human agenda at work.

01:33:59.580 Do you see that?

01:34:00.400 I just think it's a pretty dumb political agenda that's been pursued so far.

01:34:03.980 It's not just dumb, it's like weird.

01:34:05.620 Yeah.

01:34:06.020 Of all the groups you'd attack, white farmers.

01:34:07.660 Makes no sense.

01:34:08.680 It does make sense, though, doesn't it?

01:34:10.120 Why?

01:34:11.840 Well, clearly there's an effort to reduce the human population.

01:34:15.580 If all these countries-

01:34:16.920 Do you think he wants to starve the Brits and kill us?

01:34:20.060 Well, I don't know.

01:34:20.560 You know, you can't assess the motives of individuals.

01:34:23.880 They're unknowable, right?

01:34:24.780 He's not trying to starve the British people.

01:34:26.200 Okay.

01:34:26.860 I don't know him.

01:34:27.840 I don't know what he's trying to do.

01:34:28.940 No, I'm sorry.

01:34:29.480 No, no, no, no.

01:34:30.440 No, you come on.

01:34:31.200 Look around the world.

01:34:32.820 Government after government after government around the world is endorsing policies that

01:34:39.080 they know will reduce birth rates, is attacking agriculture, and is allowing, I don't know,

01:34:48.480 drugs and food that kill people and make them less healthy.

01:34:51.980 So if you add that all up, you don't have to know their motives.

01:34:54.860 You just look at the effects, and you're like, the effect is to kill people.

01:34:59.700 What is going on here?

01:35:01.360 Do you ever wonder that?

01:35:02.360 Crap governance by a series-

01:35:04.220 But it's consistent around, it's like, every country's like, you know, we should help people

01:35:07.500 kill themselves.

01:35:09.660 How would you ever come up with that?

01:35:11.000 At a time when we need more people, not less.

01:35:13.720 Yeah.

01:35:14.080 What do you think that is?

01:35:16.040 Bad governing.

01:35:16.720 I mean-

01:35:17.940 But why is it the same in every country?

01:35:19.620 Well, I just think the food thing in particular, look how fat everyone's getting, right?

01:35:23.440 I mean, fat, lazy, sedentary, and you're like, that can't be good for anyone.

01:35:28.720 No, but why is it happening?

01:35:31.100 Bad, bad politicians.

01:35:32.960 But why is every politician in every Western country coming to the same set of policies

01:35:38.560 whose effect is fewer children, more unhealthy dead people?

01:35:43.400 Like, I mean, you don't have to be a conspiracy nut to just say, I'm looking at just the numbers.

01:35:47.760 Yeah, that is-

01:35:48.420 How many kids per family?

01:35:50.160 Dropping.

01:35:50.600 That is the consequence of all the political actions that have been taken.

01:35:54.080 I agree.

01:35:55.040 I don't think it's a mad global conspiracy in the way you might be inferring.

01:35:58.360 Well, I don't-

01:35:58.940 I don't know what I'm inferring.

01:35:59.920 I'm just noticing-

01:36:00.940 Yeah, but I don't-

01:36:01.580 Listen, I know where you're coming from on this.

01:36:03.920 I don't believe they're actually smart enough to do that from the politicians I've met.

01:36:07.420 Then why are they all doing it?

01:36:08.820 All of them.

01:36:09.400 I think because they're not very competent, and they're not very good, and they're lazy.

01:36:13.400 And they're going a long way.

01:36:14.480 The law of averages would suggest that, like, I don't know, the governments of Spain, Belgium,

01:36:19.200 New Zealand, pick another, Mexico, would adopt the opposite policies.

01:36:24.400 Like, we're going to pay you to have more kids, not one of them.

01:36:26.440 Here's what I would agree with you about.

01:36:27.420 It's wrong, and it's got to change.

01:36:29.720 We need more people, not less.

01:36:31.600 We need better food, not crap food.

01:36:33.520 We need to reduce the size of our human beings whilst increasing populations.

01:36:39.640 Otherwise, the planet's going to kill itself, going to basically self-implode and die out,

01:36:44.760 as Elon Musk keeps warning.

01:36:46.340 He's right.

01:36:47.240 I agree with that.

01:36:49.080 I'm going to end on this.

01:36:49.700 Have we ended on an agreement?

01:36:51.200 I just want to know, since you're, I think, good at predictions, how do you think the war

01:36:56.400 in Ukraine will end?

01:36:57.160 I think it will end, I do think Donald Trump will get a deal.

01:37:02.560 I do think in the end that Russia will probably keep most of the land they've taken.

01:37:07.540 I personally wish that wasn't the case, but I think that's how this gets ended.

01:37:11.800 And I hope that Ukraine get enough guarantees that the rest of their country won't get taken

01:37:16.580 down the line.

01:37:17.440 We saw Crimea go.

01:37:18.900 We've seen the East go, pretty much.

01:37:21.200 And I suspect Vladimir Putin, I believe, will try and take the rest of it.

01:37:25.500 I may be wrong.

01:37:26.420 I hope I'm wrong.

01:37:27.600 I hope a deal gets done soon because too many people are dying.

01:37:31.100 I heard the other day that 100,000 people on that battlefield died in six weeks on both

01:37:36.720 sides collectively.

01:37:37.560 I mean, this is horrendous.

01:37:38.820 This has been the stuff you saw at the SOM.

01:37:41.060 I mean, it's like...

01:37:41.740 I totally agree.

01:37:42.580 But do you think it's kind of...

01:37:43.600 I strongly agree with you.

01:37:45.260 And I have for two and a half years.

01:37:47.680 But why is it only now that we're getting just sort of more realistic casualty figures?

01:37:52.380 How could a government fund a war without knowing how many people died in that war?

01:37:58.340 You think the Ukrainians have not been telling the truth about it?

01:38:01.020 I think the US and British governments have both lied about it and kept those numbers from

01:38:05.640 the public.

01:38:06.880 And I feel like that's a crime.

01:38:09.040 They should tell the truth.

01:38:10.320 They should be transparent.

01:38:11.580 If that's the case, it's wrong.

01:38:12.840 Well, I hope you'll go back to Great Britain and grab them by the throat and make them

01:38:16.520 tell the truth.

01:38:17.620 You know what?

01:38:18.100 You've made me think, go back to Britain and make us, jolt us into action.

01:38:22.580 You know what I like about the Trump thing in the last week?

01:38:25.900 Just the sense of hope, optimism, dynamism.

01:38:29.340 Yes, I agree.

01:38:30.060 Even the bit before the election when he went down to watch one of Elon Musk's rockets launch.

01:38:35.320 And just the fact that America's back in the business of going into space, aiming to go

01:38:41.000 to the moon, aiming to go to Mars.

01:38:42.900 Yes.

01:38:44.020 Where's that in my country?

01:38:45.920 Where is that kind of dynamism?

01:38:47.940 Where is someone hitting the ground with 200 things they want to do?

01:38:51.000 Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang.

01:38:52.220 I agree.

01:38:52.480 You may not agree with all of them, but my God, the energy that Trump is expending, the

01:38:56.380 dynamism, the aspiration, the thing of making America great again.

01:39:01.760 I got a feeling this time around, Trump's going to have a very good four years.

01:39:05.780 I'm not so convinced about my country, and I want to get that kind of oomph and energy

01:39:11.360 and dynamism in Britain, because I don't disagree with a lot of the characterization you've had.

01:39:15.880 If we are a country in the doldrums right now, we are.

01:39:18.560 And it solves a lot of problems.

01:39:19.740 I think that's really smart.

01:39:20.900 Yeah.

01:39:21.120 You know, the energy, the attitude.

01:39:22.720 All of it.

01:39:23.080 Why are people doing heroin in the first place?

01:39:24.760 Yeah.

01:39:24.940 Why would you want to do fentanyl?

01:39:25.860 Yeah, yeah.

01:39:26.160 Because you're hopeless.

01:39:26.820 We have a terrible drugs problem.

01:39:28.100 No, I agree.

01:39:28.700 In our country.

01:39:29.540 Terrible.

01:39:29.860 You have a bad drug problem in America.

01:39:31.540 And you solve it with attitude.

01:39:32.780 Yeah, you do.

01:39:33.360 Piers Morgan, thank you for taking all this time.

01:39:34.680 I enjoyed it.

01:39:35.100 It's great to see you in Saudi Arabia.

01:39:36.520 We'll still do it again sometime.

01:39:38.120 Thank you.

01:39:39.020 Thanks very much.

01:39:39.580 That was awesome.

01:39:39.980 Enjoyed it.

The Tucker Carlson Show - January 31, 2025

Tucker & Piers Morgan Debate Foreign Aid, Hate Speech, NATO, Gun Control, & Is Zelensky a Dictator？

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